Military Review

Great Flood: Doggerland and Sturegga

212
Great Flood: Doggerland and Sturegga
Global flood. Aivazovsky I.K., 1864


To make it clear to you, in vain we do not argue so that
Think of the terrible, about the global flood.
Incredible rain all flooded then.
People are not ruining beer, people are ruining water.
Song from the comedy film "It Can't Be." Words by Leonid Derbenev


Historical science against pseudoscience. That's the good thing about working at VO? The fact that there are many people who are interested in learning something new and, perhaps, most importantly, the level of their intelligence allows them to correctly evaluate it. That is, in order to ask the right question, you need to know half the answer, and readers of VO basically know it. But it is clear that they are interested in the details. Here, for example, the topic of the global flood that surfaced recently when discussing an article on ancient Russian chronicles. And this topic, by the way, is the most military one. After all, any “drowning” of the land leads to its deficit, and deficit is the surest way to war. Therefore, it is not surprising that a number of our regular correspondents spoke in favor of publishing a series of materials about the Flood. And if the people want, he will certainly get it, at least my opinion is this: he must get it! And we will begin this cycle not from biblical stories, although they are very, very interesting, but from what science has discovered today and what is an undeniable scientific fact. That is, we will devote our first story to Doggerland and Sturegg!


Doggerland Map. The Sturegg district is marked with a cross.

And it was so what happened on our planet The Great Glaciation. It lasted a long time, the glacier either advancing or retreating, but the main thing for us will not be the periodization of this event, but only the fact that people already lived in Europe at that time. Well, already in our time it was known that in the very center of the North Sea there is a sandbank, which is called Dogger Bank and which became famous for the fact that during the First World War a battle of English and German battle cruisers took place near it. Bank as a bank - you never know them in the world. However, it happened that in 1931 the Kolinda fishing trawler caught a piece of peat there, and in it a prehistoric deer horn, which was clearly processed and was nothing more than a harpoon tip 220 mm long. Then, the remains of a mammoth and a lion were lifted from the bottom, and, most importantly, prehistoric tools and weapons. Then, 16 km from the coast of Zealand, a fragment of a Neanderthal skull, about 40 years old, was lifted from the bottom of the sea.


Area of ​​three successive landslides of Sturegg

It was obvious that under the water lies the land that used to be land, but which was then covered by water. It was obvious that it occupied the entire southern part of the North Sea and connected Britain with Denmark. Archaeologist Briony Coles gave this sushi array the name Doggerland. It gradually became clear that Doggerland was inhabited by people in the Mesolithic era, and it was rich in flora and fauna.

About 10 thousand years ago, when both the North Sea and almost the entire territory of the British Isles were hidden under a layer of ice, the sea water level was 120 meters lower than the current one. There was no English Channel, and the entire bottom of the North Sea was a tundra zone. But then the glacier began to melt, and the level of the oceans began to rise gradually. By 8000 BC e. Doggerland was a flat area formed by the sediment of the Rhine, and its coastline was replete with lagoons, swamps and beaches. It is believed that in the Mesolithic era, these lands in Europe were a real paradise in terms of bird hunting and coastal fishing.


Perhaps this was the landscape of ancient Doggerland

It was about the same as in modern Holland. A mass of birds nested in the reeds, and there were a lot of fish in streams, rivers and lakes. In addition, the sea near the coast was also shallow, and there were many fish in it too. Moreover, the fish are large, otherwise the bone harpoon would not have raised the sea from the bottom. It is possible that local residents built pile dwellings and lived in large pile villages, perfectly protected by swamps and lakes from the invasion of any enemies. Moreover, since this was the Mesolithic era, they already knew the bow and arrows, which means they could fight at a distance and ... beat the bird flying. That is, this place for a primitive man was very convenient in all respects. A convenient place is never empty; it is not without reason that the remains of a human skull are found here.


A collection of Mesolithic spearheads and harpoons from the earliest known postglacial settlement in England. Yorkshire Museum

For a long time, it was believed that the rise in sea level caused by the melting of glaciers occurred gradually. First, the sea cut off prehistoric Britain from Europe (about 6500 BC). Then Doggerland flooded, but in its place until 5000 BC. e. the island was preserved.


6500-year-old oak statue found in Willemstad (Netherlands). State Museum of Antiquities, Leiden

However, evidence has recently been found that Doggerland's flooding was sudden. That it was flooded by a giant tsunami about 8200 years ago (6200 BC), and it was caused by a landslide of underwater soil off the coast of Norway, which was called Sturegga. After this catastrophe, Britain finally separated from the continent. And besides, local cooling began, caused by the influx of cold water from glaciers melted in Norway.

Seismology data helped to find out what the relief of the seabed in these places was, and they, in turn, were received by oil producers. It turned out that Sturegga (ancient Norwegian. Storegga, that is, literally translated as "big edge") was not one, but represented three successive landslides. It is believed that Sturegga is one of the largest disasters in the history of mankind.


Ritual mask of a deer skull. British museum

But where did the “material” come from for these landslides? It was brought by streams and rivers from a melting glacier. For several millennia, river sediments were deposited on the edge of the Norwegian continental shelf and there were more and more of them. And then there was an underwater earthquake, and all this huge mass of silt and sand came into motion and crawled down a steep slope further into the ocean. A landslide captured along the length of about 290 km of the coast, and the volume of displaced was approximately 3500 cubic meters. km, which is a lot, because with such a quantity of rock it would be completely possible to cover the whole of Iceland with a layer 34 meters thick.


Mesolithic Parking Lot

A radiocarbon analysis of plant remains found under the sediments of this tsunami showed that the last of a series of these landslides occurred around 6100 BC. e. Moreover, in Scotland, the sea penetrated a distance of 80 km from the coast, and traces of it were found at an altitude of 4 meters above the level of the highest modern tides. Fortunately for us, a repetition of such a catastrophe is impossible. Rather, it can happen, but only after the end of a new ice age and the accumulation of another portion of flush rock at the bottom of the Norwegian shelf.


Hunting scene on a cave image of the Mesolithic era. Spain

Now let's look at the art of the people of the Mesolithic era known to us. The painting of this time became more abstract. If in the Paleolithic era 80% of the images are animals, and 20% - of a person, now the main part falls on people, moreover, not one specific person is depicted, but a community. Hunting scenes are very popular when a lot of people drive a lot of animals, scenes of mass dances and rites. In Valltorta Gorge, researchers found, for example, a whole gallery of picturesque compositions with scenes of deer, wild boar and ram hunting. There were also images of the first battles of people with people (that is, the war has now become an object of art), as well as a unique drawing depicting execution (in the center of it is a man pierced by arrows, and around are people with bows in their hands: the real St. Sebastian! ) True, there is no such detailing as before. But the movement, the plot appears in the drawings, which means that the human brain has developed to the level of abstract thinking and has become capable of generalizing objects and phenomena. Without a doubt, this kind of thinking should have affected the language level. That is, oral folk art, legends, tales and tales appeared, passed from mouth to mouth.


An elk horn instrument made about 11 years ago. Museum of Archeology and Anthropology, University of Cambridge

And here comes the conclusion: such a massive catastrophe as the flooding of Doggerland’s vast expanse simply could not help but find its reflection in people's memory. After all, not everyone died there, who survived, and then painted (or perhaps even painted!) Their adventures to those people who were not affected by the cataclysm.


Skull of the Tevitsky burial. A woman from 25 to 35 years old died a violent death from numerous fractures of the skull and bone damage associated with arrows. Mesolithic (from 6740 to 5680 BC). Tevets (Morbihan, Brittany, France). Toulouse Museum

Well, as an epilogue, let's read the end of the novel by A. Belyaev “The Last Man from Atlantis” - you can’t say better than him:

“And on long winter evenings, he told them wonderful stories ... about the terrible death of an entire nation and country, about the terrible rains that accompanied this death, about the salvation of a few of them ... and about his salvation ...”


Tevitsky burial. Mesolithic (from 6740 to 5680 BC). Tevets (Morbihan, Brittany, France). Toulouse Museum. Pay attention to the beads. Very elegant, right?

"... People listened to these stories with the exciting curiosity of the children, passed on to each other, added and decorated these stories from themselves, cherished them like a sacred tradition."


To be continued ...
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  1. Grandfather
    Grandfather April 11 2020 05: 28 New
    -7
    the whole History is distorted and invented. archaeologists know this. even ordinary miners know. in our Urals, I myself have found fossilized shells in quarries, and for a minute, the area is considered highlands. however, the layers of rock in the quarries are very clearly read, so there was not "just the sea", but specific floods or deluges, followed by drought. no one really can explain this or does not want to. as well as the remains of megalithic structures in the mountains and forests of the Urals and Siberia. this great mystery is.
    1. Anika
      Anika April 11 2020 05: 43 New
      13
      He himself found seashells in the steppe many times, moreover, there are more of them, even before there was a sea connected to the Caspian Sea, which is why there are seals
      1. DMB 75
        DMB 75 April 11 2020 05: 51 New
        25
        And the local history museum is literally littered with such finds! As a child, we both found a huge fossilized shell, we barely dragged it together, then we were free (although the ticket cost 5 kopecks, but still nice) we were allowed to walk for six months, which we did not they failed to take advantage, there was something to see! Thanks to the author for the article and the memories, all health and a good day!
      2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
        Kote Pan Kokhanka April 11 2020 07: 07 New
        26
        Quote: Anika
        He himself found seashells in the steppe many times, moreover, there are more of them, even before there was a sea connected to the Caspian Sea, which is why there are seals

        Take it wider - the Ural Ocean !!!
        I'm not joking, the harsh Ural crocodiles are a reality, however, like sharks with trilobites !!!
        By the way, salt deposits in Solikamsk and Sol-Iletsk are a legacy of the Ural Ocean! However, like the limestone of the Stone Belt !!!
        1. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave April 11 2020 07: 39 New
          10
          harsh Ural crocodiles
          Oh yeah!
          Take it wider
          They also flew !!! laughing
          1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
            Kote Pan Kokhanka April 11 2020 07: 59 New
            +9
            Quote: 3x3zsave
            harsh Ural crocodiles
            Oh yeah!
            Take it wider
            They also flew !!! laughing

            Anton buddy, you gave me a thought!
            From today, the super-Russo-Aryans of Alexander Samsonov, the Slavs - Eduard Vyashenko, and the Tartars - Timur (Bara1) are not in trend. I start a company for the promotion of "Ural flying crocodiles" !!!
            So Anton beware, you will be leaving the tank around the corner, and there is a crocodile with Molotov cocktail !!!
            laughing drinks soldier
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave April 11 2020 08: 04 New
              11
              and there is a crocodile with a Molotov cocktail !!!
              Who would have thought that Daenerys Burerozhdennaya originally from Ekatirenburg? recourse laughing
            2. kalibr
              April 11 2020 08: 20 New
              +8
              "Tremors" remember? So they lived then!
              1. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master April 11 2020 13: 16 New
                13
                Vyacheslav Olegovich, as always, thanks. smile
                I read about Doggerland from G.S. Lebedev, though quite a bit, he goes with it as an introduction to the main work. But it was still interesting to imagine that world, already inhabited by people, but so unlike the usual one for us.
                However, it’s so far away and the west can’t be climbed to get really surprised. The Neva River has existed for only 4000 years, and Vuoksa (on the Karelian Isthmus) flowed 700 years ago not to Ladoga, as it is now, but to the Gulf of Finland near modern Vyborg, and the Koporye fortress stood on the seashore ...
                But to look at least with one peep at how the Neva broke into the Baltic Sea ... I think the people who were direct witnesses of this received a lot of unforgettable impressions ... smile
                1. AllBiBek
                  AllBiBek April 11 2020 14: 48 New
                  10
                  Still worse; The Neva was divided into Bolshaya and Malaya sometime during the time of Macedon, and at about the same time Ladoga was cut off from the Antsilov Sea.

                  In general, there is Mesolithic in the Leningrad region, but it is extremely scarce and pale. The reason is simple, there is no raw material as such. With flint in our area, it’s really sad, but with shale axes you can’t go wild.
                  1. Caretaker
                    Caretaker April 11 2020 22: 13 New
                    +1
                    Quote: AllBiBek
                    Still worse; Neva divided into Big and Small somewhere in the time of Macedon

                    Bolshaya and Malaya Nevka were forgotten by another couple of dozen ducts.
                    But in general I support
                2. Caretaker
                  Caretaker April 11 2020 22: 17 New
                  0
                  Quote: Trilobite Master
                  The Neva River has existed for only 4000 years, and Vuoksa (on the Karelian Isthmus) did not flow into Ladoga 700 years ago, as it is now ...

                  Less, Losevsky thresholds man-made.
                  1. Trilobite Master
                    Trilobite Master April 12 2020 00: 16 New
                    +1
                    Quote: Caretaker
                    Losevsky thresholds man-made

                    This is yes.
                    However, at the time of the start of hydraulic works on the isthmus, where the rapids are now, Vuoksa was already flowing to Ladoga - through Priozersk. A water breakthrough in the area of ​​Losevo (then Kiviniemi) simply drained the Vuoksa channel towards Priozersk.
                    When exactly the Vuoksa channel, leading to Vyborg, has completely dried up, I can’t presume, as it is now, when the water rises strongly in the spring, part goes to the Gulf of Finland directly, but at the time the Swedes founded Vyborg and in 1293, if I am not mistaken, Vuoksa still flowed through Vyborg in full volume.
        2. Anika
          Anika April 11 2020 09: 40 New
          +5
          Previously, the Caspian Sea was connected to the Arctic Ocean, I don’t remember what period, I need to look in the internet, and these are the corresponding finds.
        3. awdrgy
          awdrgy April 11 2020 22: 04 New
          +2
          As for crocodiles, I do not know, but the Permian animal style is replete with images of the so-called "earthen mammoth" which was nicknamed by the Slavs - "the fierce beast of the corcodel" and judging by the images it was really adapted to amphibian habitat
      3. cost
        cost April 11 2020 14: 34 New
        10
        Grandpa Old (Grandpa Old) : I myself found fossilized shells in quarries

        Yes, for sure, every Soviet child in childhood, playing on the street, found fossilized Jurassic mollusks belemenites. We called them - damn finger. It was considered a great success to find such a finger; according to the children's belief, it brought the owner good luck. I still have one in my "children's chest". although I no longer remember where I picked him up - either in the Caucasus, or in Ivanovo, or in the Moscow region. They met everywhere.

        Belemnites or belemnitides (lat. Belemnitida, from other Greek. Βέλεμνον (belemnon) - "projectile"), is a detachment of extinct cephalopod mollusks from the subdivision of two-gill. Predators probably swam well; had fins, large eyes, horny jaws and an ink bag. There were hooks on the tentacles. Inside the body of belemnite was a massive carbonate roster, similar to the tip of an arrow. With these rosters, often found in Mesozoic sediments, the name of the detachment is associated. Belemnites were very numerous in the Jurassic and Cretaceous periods. The oldest known (in 2019) of their finds belong to the beginning of the Jurassic (Schwegleria and a form close to Subhastites, Gettang age), and possibly to the Late Triassic (family Sinobelemnitidae, Carnian age) Some. Belemnites, probably at the border of the Cretaceous and Paleogene, became extinct
        1. AllBiBek
          AllBiBek April 11 2020 14: 50 New
          +9
          Belemnite rosters are now found more than everywhere. Throughout Moscow, but especially a lot of them in the Filevskaya floodplain.
          1. Aviator_
            Aviator_ April 11 2020 19: 41 New
            +3
            In the area of ​​the limestone quarry in Gzhel, fossils are like mud: ammonites, belemnites, and different shells.
        2. 3x3zsave
          3x3zsave April 11 2020 19: 05 New
          +4
          My grandmother considered the "damn finger" a reliable remedy for warts (location, Vladimir region).
        3. Caretaker
          Caretaker April 11 2020 22: 19 New
          +3
          Quote: Rich
          Yes, surely every Soviet child in childhood, playing on the street, found fossilized Jurassic mollusks belemenites. We called them - damn finger. Finding such a finger was considered a great success.

          In Koporye, they are still "like mud" underfoot.
        4. Ingvar 72
          Ingvar 72 April 12 2020 00: 31 New
          +3
          Quote: Rich
          We called them - damn finger. Finding such a finger was considered great luck.

          In the Samara and Ulyanovsk regions there is a lot of these "successes"! The shredded devil's finger is believed to promote wound healing. For me, so solid oil (!) Heals much better. hi
        5. LiSiCyn
          LiSiCyn April 12 2020 08: 29 New
          +3

          Kaliningrad region
      4. stroybat ZABVO
        stroybat ZABVO April 11 2020 16: 48 New
        +5
        B7Hi from Argentina
        In the city of Kurgan, and this is the Trans-Urals, when the Tobol River "cut" the bank (before the construction of the dam :)) I went with my friends to collect the TEETH OF PRHISTORIC SHARKS.
    2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
      Kote Pan Kokhanka April 11 2020 06: 17 New
      24
      Quote: Dead Day
      the whole History is distorted and invented. archaeologists know this. even ordinary miners know. in our Urals, I myself have found fossilized shells in quarries, and for a minute, the area is considered highlands. however, the layers of rock in the quarries are very clearly read, so there was not "just the sea", but specific floods or deluges, followed by drought. no one really can explain this or does not want to. as well as the remains of megalithic structures in the mountains and forests of the Urals and Siberia. this great mystery is.

      I already choked! It is interesting in the Perm period who falsified history? Dinosaurs !!!?
      Just enter in the search engine the words Perm period !!! And everything will fall into place! By the way, I advise you to read Raspopov’s books about the great rivers of the Urals, Sergey and Chusova, as a uralets — Urals. His work begins with the history of the geology of our mountain pearls. You will not regret it and you will learn a lot about the first falsifiers of History!
      So the picture rises before my eyes! An ancient Aryan-Slavic-Rusich is sitting on Cape Gamayun and on an engineering calculator to calculate where, after two thousand years, Vaska Tatishchev will put up a dam so that he can bury the scraper from the shell !!!
      By the way, in capital Yekaterinburg there is a museum of local lore at the “carpenter”, when the hard times with the coronovirus pass us, don’t be too lazy look You will learn a lot about the movement of lithospheric plates and the history of the geology of the planet! Excursions are accessible and interesting, take children and grandchildren !!!
      Regards, Kote!
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave April 11 2020 07: 31 New
        10
        Dinosaurs !!!?
        Vlad! hi
        As far as I remember, from the books that were once read, dinosaurs did not exist in the Perm period.
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka April 11 2020 07: 41 New
          14
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          Dinosaurs !!!?
          Vlad! hi
          As far as I remember, from the books that were once read, dinosaurs did not exist in the Perm period.

          Of course not! Later, living dinosaurs could not endure the heyday of trilobite civilization! So they were engaged in mass transportation of limestone from Geberborea!
          1. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave April 11 2020 08: 00 New
            +7
            So that's who all the limestone with Khibin backed up! Harsh Ural crocodiles !!!
            1. bubalik
              bubalik April 11 2020 22: 08 New
              +1
              Walked the streets
              Big crocodile.
              She she
              It was green. (C)
          2. Trilobite Master
            Trilobite Master April 11 2020 12: 35 New
            17
            Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
            Later, living dinosaurs could not endure the heyday of trilobite civilization!

            My pet sometimes tells me such things!
            About the war of trilobites with dinosaurs - finally fire!
            Dinosaurs offended peaceful trilobites, called them vile words and laughed. If the trilobite somewhere found a candy and tried to bring it home - they took it away and laughed again. The trilobites were upset, but could not do anything - they were small, and the dinosaurs were large. Trilobites cried and rustled powerlessly with their shells.
            But then the great trilobite Senya appeared (my pet, by the way, is his direct descendant, this is a very noble trilobic genus, by the way), he taught trilobites to curl up into balls and quickly move overland, organized them, taught them to fight (lure dinosaurs into the sea, surround and tickle them with paws and antennae to death or until he says "that's it, I give up") and a real war began. The trilobites took pity on the captured dinosaurs and no longer tickled them, sometimes even fed them. And the little dinosaurs born in captivity were allowed to go home.
            In general, the trilobites won and demanded that all dinosaurs quit smoking as a contribution. They agreed, but deceived the trilobites and secretly smoked around the corner of the Ural Mountains. That's why they died out.
            That's the story.
            By the way, the ancient Scythian-Slavs participated in this war on the side of the trilobites, and the evil Semito-reptilians, relatives of the dinosaurs, by the way, helped them offend the trilobites, and then smuggled cigarettes to them exorbitantly around the corner of the Ural Mountains. Here!
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 April 11 2020 13: 52 New
              +6
              The forerunner of the “War of mice and frogs”?

              Those in at least one weight category were.
              1. Trilobite Master
                Trilobite Master April 11 2020 14: 03 New
                10
                Trilobites are peaceful toilers, and dinosaurs are gopniks and parasites. But good always tickles evil. laughing
                And mice and frogs never fought. These are inventions of official historians. In fact, they lived together. There is documentary evidence that official history ignores.

                All historians lie.
                The mouse, by the way, is at the top of the social ladder. laughing
                1. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 April 11 2020 14: 33 New
                  +5
                  These are the tales that create “alternative stories”.
                  A bit of foreign video footage.

                  http://kvaba.ru/video/lyagushki-i-zhaby-edyat-myshej.html

                  I wonder which of the characters in the tale was interested in such video-fraudulent pictures.
                  1. Trilobite Master
                    Trilobite Master April 11 2020 14: 58 New
                    +7
                    Masters of the West, naturally. But they always remain in the shade. Here is another provocative video that they want to bring discord between the fraternal peoples of frogs and mice.
                    1. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 April 11 2020 15: 00 New
                      +5
                      The mouse kingdom retaliated. The older brother was called.
                2. bubalik
                  bubalik April 11 2020 16: 41 New
                  +6
                  A mouse, by the way, at the top of the social ladder

                  ,,, nothing is permanent. recourse

                  The insect eats aphids.
                  The parrot is eating a bug.
                  Edible and he.
                3. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave April 11 2020 20: 10 New
                  +4
                  These are dinosaurs - parasites ??? Well, try a couple of tons of unsuitable greens, process them into phosphates! Moreover, on "one snout"! Only so that the distant descendants of this mouse become carriers of the mind?
            2. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave April 11 2020 19: 17 New
              +8
              If the trilobite somewhere found a candy and tried to bring it home - they took it away and laughed again.
              "If someone says that" it's easier than taking a candy from a child, "he never tried to take candy from a child."
            3. awdrgy
              awdrgy April 11 2020 22: 39 New
              +2
              "In the 13th volume of the Complete Collection of Russian Chronicles, you can find the following entry, dating back to 1582:" In the same summer, the Korkodil lutia came out of the river and the way of the shutter; there are a lot of people. And people were terrified and pray to God all over the earth. And you will hide the packs, but you will beat others. In the same year, Tsarevich Ivan Ivanovich introduced himself, in Sloboda, December 14th. "Note that this is not about the deified" giwoites "" lured "to the house (Herberstein's tritons - my edit), but about the real invasion of lizards-corkodels.
              Here is another entry from the time by Jerome Horsey, an agent of the English Trading Company. In 1589, in Poland, on his way to Russia, he witnessed the following event, recorded in his diary: “I left Warsaw in the evening, crossed the river, where a poisonous dead crocodile lay on the bank, whose belly was torn by my people with spears. such a stench spread that I was poisoned by it and lay sick in the nearest village, where I met such sympathy and Christian help that I recovered miraculously. "
              The mysterious corkodel, this time named "Arzamas Monstruz", reappeared in Russia at the beginning of the 1719th century. Evidence of this event was found in the archives of the city of Arzamas: "In the summer of 4 June 1718 days. There was a great storm in the district, and a tornado and hail, and many cattle and all living creatures died ... And a serpent fell from the sky, scorched by God's wrath, and stank disgustingly And, remembering the Decree of God by the grace of our All-Russian Sovereign Peter Alekseevich from the summer of XNUMX about Kunshtkamor and collecting various curiosities for it, monsters and freaks of all kinds, heavenly stones and various miracles, this serpent was thrown into a barrel with strong double wine. " The paper was signed by the Zemsky Commissar Vasily Shtykov. The package, obviously, did not reach the St. Petersburg Museum. The nature of the "monster" remained unsolved. "" The toponyms of many lakes and rivers of the North-West are associated with the lizard-korkodel, for example: the Yaschera River, Lake Yashchino, the settlements of Yaschera, Malaya Yaschera, etc. In the vicinity of Moscow, one can point to the Savior-Crocodile Monastery near Klin (now the village of Spas-Krokodilino) "A Komogortsev" The mysterious chud and the cult of the lizard-korkodela among the ancient Slavs "
      2. Korsar4
        Korsar4 April 11 2020 08: 48 New
        +5
        “Every educated student should smoke cigarettes. You, Yura, are small. Wait a bit, man ”(c).

        The picture of the world when he was young is simply breathtaking.

        But, to be honest, somehow in more detail you can more or less confidently imagine only from the retreat of the last glacier.

        With all due respect to the belemnites, dinosaurs, and the imprints of ginkgo and araucaria.
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka April 11 2020 09: 55 New
          +3
          Quote: Korsar4
          “Every educated student should smoke cigarettes. You, Yura, are small. Wait a bit, man ”(c).

          I met a more plowed ending !!!
          That there are three cuties .... repeat
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 April 11 2020 10: 09 New
            +4
            “Bring us a quarter?”

            Now Quaternary has been replaced by anthropogen, and the phrase has changed accordingly.

            Nice thing mnemonics.
        2. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master April 11 2020 13: 51 New
          +8
          Quote: Korsar4
          The picture of the world when he was young is simply breathtaking.

          I'm afraid not very much. smile When the world was young, it was just a pile of stones under the starry sky - neither water, nor atmosphere, nor, moreover, life ... Boring. smile
          When life appeared, it became more fun, but compared to the age of the world, it happened almost now, just now. When someone started to eat someone - it became even more interesting, but later, when people appeared - yes, then the trash began ... And it continues, constantly increasing the speed of the plot. smile
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 April 11 2020 13: 57 New
            +5
            Even if everything is slow and quiet. But the output of plants from water to land. And much later - tree ferns and horsetails.

            Not only Professor Challenger “The Lost World” attracts.

            Although, of course, I would have to ask "to do the installation."
            1. Trilobite Master
              Trilobite Master April 11 2020 14: 10 New
              +5
              So I say - some interesting movement only appeared when life was formed and developed on the planet.
              It seems to me that this is just a sign of aging, the planet’s organism can no longer cope with the infection, the immune system has weakened, and life has started. When the planet was young, strong, breathing, living, I would say, it was seething with a full planetary life, no parasites would start on it ... smile
              1. Korsar4
                Korsar4 April 11 2020 14: 27 New
                +4
                Very similar to the "Gaia concept."

                One way to cure is to come up with something like a Trojan War.
          2. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave April 11 2020 19: 35 New
            +4
            And it continues, constantly increasing the speed of the plot.
            And the budget. Respectively.
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 April 11 2020 20: 13 New
              +4
              All Anton would translate into pasta.

              But are people capable of moving away from the “human-consumer” ideology?
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave April 11 2020 20: 33 New
                +4
                Come on in vain to erect! In general, I am silver-free!
                1. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 April 11 2020 20: 43 New
                  +2
                  Yes, typical silverfish. And the budget itself materialized out of thin air.
                  1. 3x3zsave
                    3x3zsave April 11 2020 21: 00 New
                    +3
                    Yes, typical silverfish.
                    Sure! Always, when accepting money, or giving, I say "thank you". For money is evil, but with it it is better.
                    1. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 April 11 2020 21: 41 New
                      +2
                      And teachers from the department of philanthropomathematics.
        3. Caretaker
          Caretaker April 11 2020 22: 32 New
          +1
          Quote: Korsar4
          ginkgo

          Acquired for the sake of interest, put in a pot on the site. Forgot about its existence. Survives in all conditions.
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 April 11 2020 22: 39 New
            +2
            It is believed that withstands temperature minus 30. But I suspect that its capabilities are even greater.

            Fascinating, in its own way.
    3. tlauicol
      tlauicol April 11 2020 06: 23 New
      11
      It’s also a secret for me why archaeologists and geologists didn’t tell this secret only to you alone. request
    4. tlauicol
      tlauicol April 11 2020 07: 56 New
      +7
      As a child, I was surprised by huge smooth stones in the taiga: you go, and at the top of the hill there are huge boulders with a good size hut. Which giant brought them, why? It turns out the glacier.
      And fishermen got a skull of a bison from Selenga, he was lying in the garage of our teacher for a long time.
      1. kalibr
        April 11 2020 08: 18 New
        +8
        In Penza, in the museum of local lore, there are skeletons of a mammoth, a woolly rhinoceros, and someone else huge. Everything is found under Penza. That is, they lived here ... It is believed that the glacier stopped just in the middle of the city. Therefore, one part of it is smooth, and the other is a steep mountain and all of clay ...
      2. Korsar4
        Korsar4 April 11 2020 08: 51 New
        +6
        Even a small boulder is happy and surprised.

        And how do you think that the relief of the glacier has been created in many ways - which giant can do it.
    5. zuber
      zuber April 11 2020 08: 11 New
      +6
      Read at your leisure a course in general geology, you might get wiser.
    6. mmaxx
      mmaxx April 11 2020 16: 56 New
      +6
      Ordinary miners know very well in what place millions so 200-300 years ago there were seas.
      Shell rock, etc., is already like a stone, where it is not located on the continents.
  2. Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka April 11 2020 05: 34 New
    11
    Vyacheslav Olegovich thanks for the real work!
    I wonder what kind of tool it is?

    An elk horn instrument made about 11 years ago. Museum of Archeology and Anthropology, University of Cambridge

    Good day to all, with sincere respect Vlad!
    1. kalibr
      April 11 2020 08: 15 New
      +6
      Quote: Kote pane Kohanka
      I wonder what kind of tool it is?

      I also thought - what? But judging by the photo is difficult. And nothing else is written there.
      1. 3x3zsave
        3x3zsave April 11 2020 09: 00 New
        +7
        Tools come and go, as do professional skills. As a child, he found several metal plates in the attic of his grandmother’s house. I went to my grandmother with a question about their origin, she then kept silent. Much later, my mother said that her older brother worked as a carver in his youth. These plates were intended for searing bristles after slaughtering cattle.
        1. Caretaker
          Caretaker April 11 2020 22: 37 New
          -1
          Quote: 3x3zsave
          These plates were intended for searing bristles after slaughtering cattle.

          Is that how you imagine it?
          The bristles are "scorched" by open fire.
      2. AllBiBek
        AllBiBek April 11 2020 14: 53 New
        +8
        Hoe it.
      3. AllBiBek
        AllBiBek April 11 2020 15: 13 New
        11
        Yes it is a hoe, do not even hesitate. Classical for that period. Not the rarest find is that of the Upper Paleolithic, of Mesolithic, that of Neolithic. They are usually not large, from the horn or shoulder blade (although I came across from a tusk), the hilt is a maximum with the size of an elbow.

        They were mainly used for digging dugouts and storage pits along their perimeter, they are most often found in them.
        1. Kote Pan Kokhanka
          Kote Pan Kokhanka April 11 2020 19: 05 New
          +3
          Quote: AllBiBek
          Yes it is a hoe, do not even hesitate. Classical for that period. Not the rarest find is that of the Upper Paleolithic, of Mesolithic, that of Neolithic. They are usually not large, from the horn or shoulder blade (although I came across from a tusk), the hilt is a maximum with the size of an elbow.

          They were mainly used for digging dugouts and storage pits along their perimeter, they are most often found in them.

          Thank you very much!
          Regards, Vlad!
          1. AllBiBek
            AllBiBek April 11 2020 19: 59 New
            +8
            Yes, not at all).

            If it is Mesolithic that is interesting - google the works of Alexei Nikolaevich Sorokin, he has a very simple language of narration, and - yes, he is the guru of this topic.

            But my heart is somehow more devoted to the Paleolithic, there is a riddle on a riddle, and one other is more mysterious. The logic of the Mesolithic people is not so difficult to understand, it does not differ much from the current one. But in the Paleolithic - everything is different.
            1. 3x3zsave
              3x3zsave April 11 2020 20: 39 New
              +5
              Write about it. It would be interesting.
              1. AllBiBek
                AllBiBek April 11 2020 20: 49 New
                +7
                Somehow - maybe. The Paleolithic - it is huge, the whole history of our civilization there - is a chronological error in the dating of the Upper Paleolithic, and the lower one in this regard looks like Greta Tunberg at a source of carbon dioxide.

                And so, those people had a metric system, yes. In the space from the center of Europe to the Urals). Really metric, they have all the parking lots not only firmly oriented to the cardinal points (from north-west to south-east, to be more precise), so also all objects such as pantry pits or dugouts are tied to a meter or a meter and a half.

                Well, I’m generally silent about the hiatus paradox, it is known to everyone who is in the subject, but no one can even guess about how and why. Roughly speaking, there is a thousand-year period during which almost all the monuments on the Russian Plain were abandoned, and after all the industries returned there in exactly the same form (and each monument has its own specifics), only the dwellings became completely different.

                Well, and so on.
                1. 3x3zsave
                  3x3zsave April 11 2020 20: 56 New
                  +4
                  Well, so what's the deal? It would be interesting to read.
                  1. AllBiBek
                    AllBiBek April 11 2020 21: 31 New
                    +4
                    Decide where to start ... Paleolithic is still characterized by the fact that there is nothing to say at all, solid assumptions.

                    For example, it has not yet been established exactly whether carriers of the mammoth hunter culture hunted mammoths. And if they hunted, then how?
                    1. Korsar4
                      Korsar4 April 11 2020 21: 47 New
                      +3
                      That is, they were called so, and then they began to think, what were they doing?

                      So who and when did they exhaust mammoths and woolly rhinos?
                      Very interesting.
                      1. AllBiBek
                        AllBiBek April 11 2020 22: 21 New
                        +7
                        All kinds of hunting cultures are usually called by the largest number of bones of one kind or another at their sites, but here everything is somewhat more complicated. Firstly, there is such a thing as megafauna cemeteries; as an example, the same Kostenki. And from the time of their formation to the studied sites - not a thousand years, and not even ten thousand, but from fifty thousand to one hundred and fifty. Secondly, in later mammoth populations, the consequences of inbreeding are in full swing. Cervical ribs, for example. That is, there were still mammoths, but genetic diversity within the population was already lacking. That is, they managed to degenerate right next to the culture of mammoth hunters. Thirdly, in their art - and someone has come to know his seol - the mammoth is almost not represented. And if presented - for example, in drawings - then as an element of the landscape, and not an object of hunting. This is if we take Eurasia.

                        America is a little more complicated, the Clovis people are very powerful hunters. These - yes, the campaign finished off the population. But - there is appropriate inventory. A tip of the "Clovis" type - it can also pierce the barrel of a mammoth. But some gravette with a side notch is hardly anymore, they are very small.

                        Few people deny the episodic hunt for a mammoth, but on an ongoing basis - rather no than yes. A bison, a horse, and a deer.
                      2. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 April 11 2020 22: 37 New
                        +3
                        And mammoths in modern Yakutia are in close contact with humans?

                        And how much did mammoths with rhinos affect the environment since the last glaciation?
                      3. AllBiBek
                        AllBiBek April 11 2020 22: 51 New
                        +4
                        After the last - nothing at all; the rhino at that time was already extinct, and the mammoths - well, almost.

                        Most mammoth carcasses in Yakutia date back to 40 years or so. There were no people there at that time. At least in tangible quantities. There are, of course, monuments with controversial dating, but there is no single material culture there.

                        None of the species from a good life to the northern latitudes breaks, it is stupidly replaced by another species. The same Neanderthals never climbed out of the subtropics, and the Sapiens up to the Mesolithic were not very willing to leave temperate latitudes.

                        However, there and in temperate latitudes with the weather going on complete garbage. From time to time everything froze so that the earth burst a couple of meters deep. We call this garbage "first (or second) generation permafrost cracks, and they are ubiquitous.
                      4. Korsar4
                        Korsar4 April 11 2020 22: 59 New
                        +2
                        Is it now generally accepted?

                        That is, when the heyday of this large fauna is more than 40 thousand years ago?
                      5. AllBiBek
                        AllBiBek April 11 2020 23: 08 New
                        +4
                        No, 40 and 000 are really large extinctions of representatives of megafauna. There are interglacials, such as the present, only much more global.

                        The one that is at the junction of the Pleistocene with the Holocene - it is so modest.

                        There, in the first place, a breakthrough was made in the psychology of people, and the Mesolithic revolution began. Throughout the mainland.

                        Mammoths at that time remained only on Wrangel Island, the last population. Dwarf and.

                        Successfully died out when in Egypt there was a peak of fashion for the construction of the pyramids.
        2. Caretaker
          Caretaker April 11 2020 22: 41 New
          0
          Quote: AllBiBek
          not only that they are rigidly oriented to the cardinal points (from northwest to southeast, to be precise)

          Imagine magnetic pole binding? Interesting!
          Develop a theme based on available information.
          1. AllBiBek
            AllBiBek April 11 2020 23: 03 New
            +3
            Figs knows him, there is a version with a wind rose, and there is a version with astronomy. The starry sky was then a little different, and, for example, the place of the polar star at that time was sort of like Vega.

            Mu don’t know, honestly.

            The line northwest - southeast is a line of outbreaks. From three to ten, the width of the focus is a meter or one and a half, the depth is half a meter or a meter, the filling is coal (usually bone), and stones. Along the perimeter there are dugouts, the entrance to the fires, the depth is half a meter, the width is one and a half, the length is 3-5.

            Toward the close of the period, they become larger, wider, do not go deep into the ground, and there is a tradition to sprinkle bonfires with ocher.

            Oh yes. There are also storage pits along the perimeter of the dugouts. Meter per meter and every meter. Teardrop-shaped. They sometimes have statuettes, including fat women. As a rule, in the lake, so this nifiga is not a cult of body-positive fats, but a kind of sacrifice.
            1. Caretaker
              Caretaker April 11 2020 23: 23 New
              0
              Quote: AllBiBek
              Figs knows him, there is a version with a wind rose

              No, it’s not rolling, the wind rose could change when moving.
              Quote: AllBiBek
              ... but there is a version with astronomy
              Most likely ...

              How about magnetic pole snapping?
              1. AllBiBek
                AllBiBek April 11 2020 23: 28 New
                +2
                Paleomagnets by itself, and more than once.

                The magnetic pole was then approximately the same as now.

                Last time, this moment changed dramatically around the time that habilis became erectus, and the first thing they did, having learned to walk confidently on two legs, was dumped from Africa. There, the magnetic poles have changed places from this.
              2. Caretaker
                Caretaker April 11 2020 23: 32 New
                0
                Quote: AllBiBek
                The magnetic pole was then approximately the same as now.

                Over the past hundred years has changed significantly. What can we say about a few thousand or tens of thousands.
              3. AllBiBek
                AllBiBek April 11 2020 23: 38 New
                +2
                Well, of course, they knew how to use iron in their paleolithic works, but I doubt very much that they had already invented the compass).

                About iron - not a joke, by the way, ferruginous nodules in the parking lots - a very common occurrence, and they were dragged from afar.

                They worried about them for ocher, because there’s a lot that they call ocher. From the burnt nodules comes a dark red powder, right down to purple. And they really appreciated him.
  • Catfish
    Catfish April 11 2020 06: 14 New
    14
    passed on to each other, added and adorned these stories from themselves,


    Yeah, and now everyone is surprised that something is wrong with the story of our old Earth.
    And historians are also not a gift with their motto: "The future is beyond our control, but the past depends on us!" Just kidding, don't take it lightly. wink
    Vyacheslav Olegich, thanks, it was interesting to read. good
    1. AllBiBek
      AllBiBek April 11 2020 15: 16 New
      10
      We usually say even more tartly, "We are archaeologists, as we say - so it was."

      And archeology is the most accurate of sciences, after astrology and palmistry, yes.
      1. Korsar4
        Korsar4 April 11 2020 16: 12 New
        +8
        “If there is slurred garbage in the storerooms, and it’s not possible to establish by any means what kind of crap it is, and you need to do the labeling urgently, then they write“ tops ”” (c).
        1. AllBiBek
          AllBiBek April 11 2020 16: 33 New
          +9
          Nifiga.

          "Cult object".
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 April 11 2020 16: 41 New
            +7
            You can’t change the quote. But, of course, options are possible.
          2. 3x3zsave
            3x3zsave April 11 2020 20: 45 New
            +7
            Oh yeah! Vyacheslav Olegovich has a story about "the pommel of the Sormatian sword, like a neck ornament from a Mordovian burial." laughing
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 April 11 2020 21: 00 New
              +7
              Sometimes a sensation creeps in that there are a number of such universal answers that it is enough, at least, to maintain a conversation.

              (Especially if you don’t understand something).
              1. 3x3zsave
                3x3zsave April 11 2020 21: 08 New
                +6
                This is a very specific episode from the practice of Shpakovsky.
                I, by a sinful deed, sometimes it happens, also surprise museum workers with my awareness (but it's more pleasant for me to "charm", in this case, "storerooms" may open)
              2. bubalik
                bubalik April 11 2020 21: 19 New
                +3
                so universal answers that it’s enough, at least for

                ,,, how not to remember wink laughing
                Ellochka Schukin easily and freely cost thirty.
                1. Korsar4
                  Korsar4 April 11 2020 21: 39 New
                  +3
                  For this, appropriate growth is needed. And the competition is in absentia with the daughter of Vanderbild.
            2. AllBiBek
              AllBiBek April 11 2020 21: 04 New
              +7
              Would purcua not be pa?

              Most of the mounds were plundered by contemporaries, and a decorative object a few hundred years old on the blindfold is, well, not a ubiquitous phenomenon, but also not so rare.
              1. Caretaker
                Caretaker April 11 2020 22: 54 New
                0
                Quote: AllBiBek
                Most of the mounds were plundered by contemporaries

                In the Northwest, Ponomarev made his contribution, during the period of occupation, he obtained skulls. Contemporaries also tried, looked for gold, but did less damage.
      2. Catfish
        Catfish April 11 2020 21: 08 New
        +5
        ... this is the most accurate of sciences, after astrology and palmistry,

        The same thing, Academician Krylov spoke word for word about meteorology. smile
        1. Korsar4
          Korsar4 April 11 2020 22: 08 New
          +2
          No. Meteorology is fully armed with instruments and measurements.
          1. Catfish
            Catfish April 11 2020 22: 17 New
            +3
            Hello, Sergey. With this, not to me, but to the academician and admiral. True, he said this either at the end of the XIX, or at the beginning of the twentieth century, I do not remember exactly. hi
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 April 11 2020 22: 32 New
              +2
              I like his aphorism very much, that statistics, like a mill, will grind everything - and grain and spit, the question is what to put into it. But the result will be different.
  • tlauicol
    tlauicol April 11 2020 06: 21 New
    +7
    Baltic on the map is in vain depicted.
    The other day I saw a program where the formation of the English Channel occurred as a result of the breakthrough of the ice dam. The North Sea was blocked from the north by ice and turned into an overflowing lake, which later eroded the chalk cliffs of Dover and Calais.
  • Olgovich
    Olgovich April 11 2020 06: 26 New
    +6
    However, evidence has recently been found that Doggerland's flooding was sudden. That it was flooded by a giant tsunami about 8200 years ago (6200 BC), and it was caused underwater landslide near the coast of Norway, which was called Sturegga.

    strange statement: if the landslide was underwater, then the total volume remained unchanged and after the tsunami caused by the landslide, the water from the doggerland was supposed to leave ...

    If the volume of land was added to the landslide, then yes ...

    But what a volume it should have been!belay recourse

    And then an underwater earthquake occurred, and all this huge mass of silt and sand came into motion and slid down a steep slope further into the ocean.

    Yeah, then there was a landslide. after all. surface - into the water .... then it’s logical.

    but the rivers continued to apply sand and silt and throughout next millennia- why are there no more such giant landslides and even smaller ones? recourse
    1. kalibr
      April 11 2020 07: 16 New
      11
      The landslide was underwater. But because of the lowland nature of the land, everything that was on it was simply washed away. Everything perished, both people and animals. And then the melting process continued and it finally flooded.
  • Free wind
    Free wind April 11 2020 06: 53 New
    +9
    This little woman was poked with arrows like hedgehog with needles. And then buried. Probably a warrior was, otherwise you could just poke a club on the head. Earth is a huge living organism that lives its own life. The continents drift, islands appear somewhere. and somewhere the sea comes. Probably in the year 91-92, he went by car to Lake Baikal, to Olkhon .. Food, the road to the lake leaves, the diameter of the lake is 200 meters, father-in-law said the lake was formed last year, the depth is about 5 -8 meters. I don’t know how it is now, I didn’t go there anymore. More recently, the African Rift has formed, scientists are wondering whether this is the beginning of the formation of a new island, or the continent. But a part may break away and collapse into the ocean, a tsunami can sweep across almost the entire earth. Thank you for the article.
    1. kalibr
      April 11 2020 07: 13 New
      +8
      Glad you liked it! And I will add that people change a lot. Not far from my house there is a "prison castle" (prison), in front of it there is a railway. There was a small tunnel and a road under it. Then they stopped using them. But as a child, the "Bread" car passed freely through it. Now he was falling asleep and skidded so that a person would not pass!
    2. tlauicol
      tlauicol April 11 2020 07: 49 New
      +7
      On Baikal, once, the Holy Nose was an island, larger than Olkhon. Then the rivers washed the isthmus - hag. It is possible to observe annually how the estuaries and streamers change, bays and closed water areas are formed. Especially on the example of small rivers, such as Maksimikha.
      Is it that, just about 150 years ago, Bay of Proval was formed on Lake Baikal - a huge part of the coast went under water
  • 3x3zsave
    3x3zsave April 11 2020 07: 49 New
    +5
    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
    Interestingly, were the magnitude calculations of the earthquake that caused the landslide (at least approximate)?
    1. kalibr
      April 11 2020 08: 13 New
      +6
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      Interestingly, were the magnitude calculations of the earthquake that caused the landslide (at least approximate)?

      I haven’t read about it anywhere, although I have read about it, of course, far from all.
  • Andobor
    Andobor April 11 2020 08: 24 New
    +5
    Yes, the Great Flood is a very specific event with the end of the ice age, when in a short period of 1-2 thousand years the sea level rose by more than 100 m, entire countries disappeared, and individual catastrophic events against this background were irrevocable in very a short period, during the life of one generation, this landslide is a breakthrough of the Black Sea.
    People remember this, already as myths, myths live for a longer time, African myths are still alive, more than 50 thousand years old - there is research on this subject:

    The modern emblem of Russian military medicine - the snake, is based on the most ancient, famous myth, which is more than 50 thousand years old.
    1. AllBiBek
      AllBiBek April 11 2020 14: 56 New
      +7
      Not certainly in that way; the oldest mythological story that has survived to this day is a duck-diving duck, who got the earth from the bottom of the ocean.
      1. Andobor
        Andobor April 11 2020 21: 40 New
        -1
        I don’t know for sure, but the snake is still African, more than 50 thousand years old, and I don’t remember ducks older than 30 thousand years old, in Malta, in the Baikal region, there are both. I snored as immortality, I tracked the revival for the sake of interest in the images, - clearly with the fact that Berezkin discovered it fits in with both modern and ancient ones.
  • Korsar4
    Korsar4 April 11 2020 08: 41 New
    +5
    Thank you, Vyacheslav Olegovich!
    Here it is - the famous dating of the "Flood in VO".

    Are you planning to mention that there is a glacial theory, but there is a drift theory?

    Very interesting, but for what dating can you be sure?
    1. kalibr
      April 11 2020 09: 23 New
      +3
      Quote: Korsar4
      Are you planning to mention that there is a glacial theory, but there is a drift theory?
      Very interesting, but for what dating can you be sure?

      To be honest, I don’t know yet. The material lies. I read it, but so far the second article in the work, as well as the third. And what will be there I do not know yet.
  • Kote Pan Kokhanka
    Kote Pan Kokhanka April 11 2020 09: 49 New
    +7
    Quote: 3x3zsave
    harsh Ural crocodiles
    Oh yeah!
    Take it wider
    They also flew !!! laughing

    Anton buddy, you gave me a thought!
    From today, the super-Russo-Aryans of Alexander Samsonov, the Slavs - Eduard Vyashenko, and the Tartars - Timur (Bara1) are not in trend. Starting a company for harsh flying e-crocodiles of the Ural Ocean !!! wassat
    Regards, Vlad!
    1. Korsar4
      Korsar4 April 11 2020 10: 12 New
      +7
      And until the year 2020 did you find your Väinämeinen?
    2. Korsar4
      Korsar4 April 11 2020 10: 16 New
      +8
      And the noble cat
      Hamayunny songwriter.
  • Krasnoyarsk
    Krasnoyarsk April 11 2020 10: 28 New
    +3
    = However, it happened that in 1931 the Kolinda fishing trawler caught a piece of peat there, and in it a prehistoric deer horn, which was clearly processed and was nothing more than a harpoon tip 220 mm long. Then, the remains of a mammoth and a lion were lifted from the bottom, and, most importantly, prehistoric tools and weapons. Then, 16 km from the coast of Zealand, a fragment of a Neanderthal skull, about 40 years old, was lifted from the bottom of the sea. =
    All this is very interesting, but ...
    I don’t remember where I read it, but it says that in salt water the bones dissolve quickly enough. Whether it's a deer horn, a Neanderthal skull or the bones of a modern drowned man. Not to mention organics - peat
    What to do?
    1. tlauicol
      tlauicol April 11 2020 11: 17 New
      +3
      The Lamanche was formed hundreds of thousands of years ago, when the North Lake / Sea, blocked by land and ice, eroded the chalk cliffs of Dover. Water has subsided, the sea has become shallow. The strait became a canyon, the shallow water became the swampy valley of Doggerland.
      After hundreds of thousands of years, the catastrophe described in the article occurred. The manche became wet again, Dogger flooded the North Sea
    2. kalibr
      April 11 2020 11: 28 New
      +5
      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
      I don’t remember where I read it, but it says that in salt water the bones dissolve quickly enough. Whether it's a deer horn, a Neanderthal skull or the bones of a modern drowned man. Not to mention organics - peat

      So all the hype to prove that the Russians on Earth were not the first ...
      1. Krasnoyarsk
        Krasnoyarsk April 11 2020 11: 43 New
        -1
        Quote: kalibr

        So all the hype to prove that the Russians on Earth were not the first ...

        Is this the answer of an intelligent person? For some reason I’m not surprised.
        1. kalibr
          April 11 2020 11: 48 New
          +4
          I'm just not a specialist in dissolving bones in salt water ...
          1. Krasnoyarsk
            Krasnoyarsk April 11 2020 17: 52 New
            +1
            Quote: kalibr
            I'm just not a specialist in dissolving bones in salt water ...

            Nothing wrong. A person cannot be a specialist in everything.
      2. Caretaker
        Caretaker April 11 2020 23: 05 New
        +1
        Quote: kalibr
        Quote: Krasnoyarsk
        I don’t remember where I read it, but it says that in salt water the bones dissolve quickly enough. Whether it's a deer horn, a Neanderthal skull or the bones of a modern drowned man. Not to mention organics - peat

        Quote: kalibr
        So all the hype to prove that the Russians on Earth were not the first ...

        Vyacheslav, in vain dismissed, an interesting argument.
        What do you say in essence?
    3. Fat
      Fat April 11 2020 11: 47 New
      +6
      Peat is a mixture of sapropel with the organic remains of sphagnum moss for the most part. This is a large amount of phenol antiseptic, therefore, the remains that have fallen in the swamp mud remain for a long time. In addition, very little oxygen does not oxidize in peat. The process of decomposition of organics is mainly anaerobic.
      1. Krasnoyarsk
        Krasnoyarsk April 11 2020 12: 00 New
        +1
        Quote: Thick
        Peat is a mixture of sapropel with the organic remains of sphagnum moss for the most part. This is a large amount of phenol antiseptic, therefore, the remains that have fallen in the swamp mud remain for a long time. In addition, very little oxygen does not oxidize in peat. The process of decomposition of organics is mainly anaerobic.

        Woo, thanks. But, excuse me, is sapropel not bottom sediments (sediments)? As a result of the vital activity of aquatic life forms. And peat is the sediment of "land" vegetation.
        Sphagnum moss - ???
        1. Fat
          Fat April 11 2020 13: 07 New
          +5
          Sphagnum grows just in swamps and very damp places.
          1. Krasnoyarsk
            Krasnoyarsk April 11 2020 17: 51 New
            +1
            Quote: Thick
            Sphagnum grows just in swamps and very damp places.

            Got it, everything is correct. Thank. With peat, everything is clear. With bones just not clear. Nowhere have I met references to the reburial of crew members of dead ships, submarines and raised after some time.
    4. Trilobite Master
      Trilobite Master April 11 2020 12: 52 New
      +6
      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
      I don’t remember where I read, but it says

      How do you know how to read, we know. The main principle is that the acquired material in the end should be completely different from what the author originally wrote.
      Quote: Krasnoyarsk
      in salt water, bones dissolve quickly enough

      I won’t be surprised if the source text contained something like "the remains of marine fauna ... form a layer of limestone ...", but you read it as you read it. And now you are surprised and do not know how to be ... laughing
      1. Krasnoyarsk
        Krasnoyarsk April 11 2020 18: 05 New
        +1
        Quote: Trilobite Master

        How do you know how to read, we know. The main principle is that the acquired material in the end should be completely different from what the author originally wrote.

        This is how we discuss the article. Well, fine, but Cho ...
        1. Trilobite Master
          Trilobite Master April 11 2020 18: 53 New
          +6
          Yes, actually, nothing ... request
          It’s just that the seas are full of calcareous deposits, which are calcium, which in turn is the basis of all horns, hooves, bones and other things. And it is absolutely not necessary to be seven spans in the forehead to understand that if these calcium compounds were soluble in water, they would dissolve rather than settle on the bottom.
          In general, I have no doubt that there could be such a wise guy who would write that bones quickly dissolve in sea water (given the fact that the solubility table passes the class, it seems in the seventh, and it says that calcium compounds with carbon , silicon and phosphorus - the basis of bones - insoluble), but ... it will already be a completely stupid person. Such people rarely write books or large articles, limiting themselves to trifles such as comments on the network, and you wouldn’t even refer to such a source, I hope.
          Hence, it remains to assume that you have understood the text you saw (I cannot use the word "read"), as usual, as God will put on your soul, being guided exclusively by your own attitudes and concepts. And if these attitudes and concepts are at least somewhat at odds with the attitudes of the author of the text, which, according to the theory of probability, is very, very possible, then the chance that you understood the text correctly drops to almost zero.
          No, of course I understand that any text exists exclusively in interaction with the reader, each has its own Raskolnikov and even his own Kolobok, but your case is something special.
          My fault, in this case, may be that, objecting to you, I skipped several stages in the reasoning, since they seemed obvious to me, and, without analyzing the consequence, that is, the obvious incorrectness of the judgment, I immediately went on to analyze the reasons why this judgment was expressed.
          All you need to chew, like a child, directly.
          1. Krasnoyarsk
            Krasnoyarsk April 11 2020 19: 56 New
            +1
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            compounds of calcium with carbon, silicon and phosphorus - the basis of bones - insoluble)

            Well. Earnestly. You can when you want. Thank.
            P.C.
            Quote: Trilobite Master
            pass the class, it seems in the seventh,

            This is 60 years ago. Could I remember this while doing things far from inorganic chemistry? You did not think about it because the ambition and arrogance of you is just gushing.
            1. Operator
              Operator April 11 2020 21: 22 New
              +1
              Google "insoluble calcium salts" (which make up 95% of bones) and you will be happy.
              1. Krasnoyarsk
                Krasnoyarsk April 11 2020 22: 37 New
                0
                Quote: Operator
                Google "insoluble calcium salts" (which make up 95% of bones) and you will be happy.

                Thank. But, you understand that before you google, I should have known what to google.
                Please note - all this fuss fired from a simple question, -
                Quote: Krasnoyarsk

                I don’t remember where I read it, but it says that in salt water the bones dissolve quickly enough. Whether it's a deer horn, a Neanderthal skull or the bones of a modern drowned man. Not to mention organics - peat
                What to do?

                to which there was a simple answer - "insoluble calcium salts"
                and all
                P.C. I even remembered where I read and double-checked - it really says so there.
                1. Operator
                  Operator April 11 2020 23: 05 New
                  0
                  Bones are composed of insoluble (95%) and soluble (5%) calcium salts (several species each). Part of the bones is soluble (with a lack of calcium in food or after death), part is not (otherwise blood would dissolve the bones).
    5. ycuce234-san
      ycuce234-san April 12 2020 14: 45 New
      +1
      Everything very much depends on the burial conditions - in some cases the conditions are so successful that the bones are petrified safely. And the Neadertal skull is too young geologically - it is too early to petrify it.
      (Malkov B.A., Lysyuk A. Yu., Ivanova T.I. Mineral composition and trace elements of fossilized bones of marine lizards of the Kargort locality (Republic of Komi) // Bulletin of the Institute of Geology of the Komi Scientific Center, Ural Branch of the Russian Academy of Sciences. 2004. No. 1. URL: https : //cyberleninka.ru/article/n/mineralnyy-sostav-i-mikroelementy-okamenelyh-kostey-morskih-yascherov-mestonahozhdeniya-kargort-respublika-komi (accessed: 12.04.2020/XNUMX/XNUMX).)
  • Operator
    Operator April 11 2020 15: 01 New
    +4
    Doggerland as a place for the World Stream will not work for a simple reason - 3 thousand years after the last Stureggs landslide, Western Europe from the direction of Gibraltar invaded Erbins (R1b) and completely cut out the local autochthonous population (I1, I2, G) - the so-called era of fragmented skulls.

    T.O. the only region that claims the title of the Great Flood is the Black Sea, which suffered a catastrophic increase in the water level of 7,5 meters 140 thousand years ago as a result of the breakthrough of the isthmus in the Dardanelles and the Bosphorus. Moreover, cuneiform writing appeared in this region, which first recorded the oral traditions of the local population (not subjected to genocide) about the flood.

    PS Something I can’t recall the British-Dutch-Norwegian epic about Gilgamesh or the North European Old Testament about Noah laughing
    1. AllBiBek
      AllBiBek April 11 2020 15: 24 New
      +4
      The Irish call it the Capture Book, google it.
      1. Operator
        Operator April 11 2020 15: 43 New
        +1
        The Irish are Erbins who, at the time of the last Sturegg landslide, passed through the Caucasus along the Caspian Sea, when they arrived on the British Isles, they slaughtered the local population and received their writing only at the beginning of our era.
    2. tlauicol
      tlauicol April 11 2020 15: 30 New
      +4
      there could be several floods. after the formation of the Baltic, e.g. The Baltic states have such legends. In Wales too. The American Indians - there were big floods in the rocky deserts right in the middle of the continent, and not on the coast. Or the Indonesian isthmus to Australia. All this happened repeatedly and at different times.
      1. Operator
        Operator April 11 2020 15: 36 New
        +2
        We are talking about a specific Great Flood: what was the connection between the Indians (whose ancestors passed from Chukotka to Alaska via the ice bridge 17 thousand years ago) with Gilgamesh - telepathic?
        1. tlauicol
          tlauicol April 11 2020 16: 43 New
          +5
          Quote: Operator
          We are talking about a specific Great Flood: what was the connection between the Indians (whose ancestors passed from Chukotka to Alaska via the ice bridge 17 thousand years ago) with Gilgamesh - telepathic?

          They wrote or talked about different events.
          1. Operator
            Operator April 11 2020 17: 23 New
            +1
            As for events that are different for local residents, this is not a question, especially since North America had its own flood during the melting of glaciers and the breakthrough of glacial lakes to the ocean.

            It is possible that a one-time breakthrough of North American glacial lakes is directly related to the Great Flood, since the wave of water masses from the Atlantic to the Mediterranean Sea could provoke the destruction of land lintels in the Dardanelles and the Bosphorus.
      2. AllBiBek
        AllBiBek April 11 2020 16: 07 New
        +5
        The isthmuses to Australia - Sahul and Schunda - were flooded by something about 25000 years ago, and the natives of Australia did not even have any legends about these events. About extinct fauna - in their folklore dofig and more, but about the flood - there is nothing, and that’s all.

        But on the whole, you are right, the transition from the Pleistocene to the Holocene was very painful, and it did not happen overnight. Four thousand four years, the written history of mankind is just more.
        1. tlauicol
          tlauicol April 11 2020 16: 47 New
          +5
          Papuans Australians Indonesians know about the flood from their traditions. About your flood
    3. Caretaker
      Caretaker April 11 2020 23: 12 New
      0
      Quote: Operator
      T.O. the only region that claims the title of the Great Flood is the Black Sea, which suffered a catastrophic increase in the water level of 7,5 meters 140 thousand years ago as a result of the breakthrough of the isthmus in the Dardanelles and the Bosphorus.

      We have already discussed this issue. Do you remember?
      The Bosphorus "stream" should fill the Black Sea depression for several months.
      1. Operator
        Operator April 11 2020 23: 31 New
        0
        We parted with the speed of the "stream" pushing along the bottom of the Sea of ​​Marmara marble blocks weighing several tens of tons.
        1. Caretaker
          Caretaker April 11 2020 23: 39 New
          +1
          Quote: Operator
          We parted with the speed of the "stream" pushing along the bottom of the Sea of ​​Marmara marble blocks weighing several tens of tons.

          Several tens of tons is a "grain of sand" for a small river locked in a gorge.
          It is not clear how the Danube, Dniester, Dnieper, Don and possibly the Volga (through Manych) could not fill the basin.
          Perhaps the breakthrough was from the hollow?
          1. Operator
            Operator April 11 2020 23: 50 New
            0
            The reasons for the incomplete filling of the Black Sea basin by the time of the catastrophic rise of its level by 140 meters are unknown to me. The direction of movement by dragging stone blocks along the bottom of the Sea of ​​Marmara is known (according to the picture of furrows) - from the Ionian Sea to the Black Sea.
            1. Caretaker
              Caretaker April 12 2020 00: 02 New
              0
              Quote: Operator
              The direction of movement by dragging stone blocks along the bottom of the Sea of ​​Marmara is known (according to the picture of furrows) - from the Ionian Sea to the Black Sea.

              The elevation difference is 20 meters per 300 km. What are you talking about?
              1. Operator
                Operator April 12 2020 00: 23 New
                0
                What does the small slope of the bottom of the Sea of ​​Marmara have to do with it - stone blocks (the remnants of the land bridge at the Dardanelles) were dragged by the high-speed pressure of the water stream.

                The flow rate can be estimated by the weight of the blocks (up to several tens of tons) and the depth of the furrows (up to several meters) at the bottom of the Sea of ​​Marmara.
    4. Sergey Zhikharev
      Sergey Zhikharev April 12 2020 11: 14 New
      +1
      And the Mediterranean Sea is no longer a contender? After all, it is also filled - through Gibraltar.
      In fact, we have several floods "Mediterranean", "Black Sea", and this is not counting the floods in Iraq (the city of Ur). And Australia and Indonesia were the same land ...
      1. Operator
        Operator April 12 2020 13: 04 New
        0
        The Strait of Gibraltar formed before the last glaciation and was already freely connected with the Atlantic Ocean at the time of glacier melting.
        1. Sergey Zhikharev
          Sergey Zhikharev April 12 2020 15: 16 New
          0
          But this does not negate that where people now lived and hunted the Mediterranean Sea. And then - bam, and I had to run.
          1. Operator
            Operator April 12 2020 15: 29 New
            0
            The bang with the Mediterranean Sea did not work out - in the Strait of Gibraltar there was no land isthmus that would collapse at the same time with the occurrence of a height difference in water level.

            Therefore, the rise in water in the Mediterranean was very slow and coincided in rate with the rise in water in the oceans - i.e. lasted for several thousand years with the rate of melting of the ice sheet on the entire planet.

            A possible exception is a breakthrough to the ocean of a large ice lake in North America, but the size of the surge wave after passing Gibraltar would still be an order of magnitude smaller than the elevation difference between the Mediterranean and the Black Seas at the time of the breakthrough of the land isthmus in the Dardanelles / Bosphorus.
  • faterdom
    faterdom April 11 2020 18: 12 New
    +3
    Everything was already there. And still will be. Nothing more to add.
    Well, apart from the fact that it is not known what pushed the "people of the sea" from the north to the prosperous south and destroyed the civilization of the Bronze Age. Around 1200 BC Cretans and Minoans, Egyptians and Hittites, Sumerians and Phoenicians had a written language, so they were able to describe this arrival. But those who came were meaner, stronger and more organized, but there was no written language or there was no written language, and nothing is known about this from their point of view - what prompted them to move en masse?
    Sepi waves gave rise to overpopulation and hunger, which periodically drove the nomads forward. But what pushed from the north?
    1. AllBiBek
      AllBiBek April 11 2020 19: 42 New
      +4
      Well, there is a bunch of reasons, and the main debate goes over which one weighed more. I’m leaning toward economic ones, and my familiar paleo-soil scientists disagree with this, as do climatologists.

      If we take the facts, then in the Early Iron there is a sharp increase in the amount of Bronze. Very sharp.
      1. Andobor
        Andobor April 11 2020 22: 13 New
        -2
        Quote: AllBiBek
        in the Early Iron there is a sharp increase in the amount of Bronze. Very sharp.

        Early iron is a revival after the dark ages that followed the collapse of bronze, and since the global world disappeared, the revival went on iron where there was no bronze or its components, and where it was full and bronze was used, the economy then flooded up, and iron technologies got the same thing, but if there is bronze that with a piece of iron is wrinkling.
        1. AllBiBek
          AllBiBek April 11 2020 22: 38 New
          +3
          Yes, how can I tell you? If we consider bronze as an alloy of copper and tin, then this is precisely the Early Iron; in Bronze itself, it is either arsenic or antimony (by the curtain, by the way, it’s mostly generally lead). Bronze as a period is the heyday of stone industries, the entire Mediterranean region then held onto six or seven large outcrops of flint and obsidian, and the main tools of that era were stone plates, metal went to jewelry and weapons, but nothing more.

          This is if you take the Mediterranean, and what they call the "Catastrophe of the Bronze Age".
          1. Korsar4
            Korsar4 April 11 2020 22: 46 New
            0
            After all, it is believed that tin stocks have depleted - I had to look for a replacement.

            What are the heroes of the Trojan War?
            Achilles shield of copper and tin, not counting precious metals.
            1. AllBiBek
              AllBiBek April 11 2020 23: 12 New
              +5
              It is considered - by whom?

              Deposits of tin on the British islands have been known since the 15th century BC, in the Bronze Age they were not particularly developed, but in the Early Iron and all of Antiquity they gave this tin in such quantities that bronze was even cheaper than the already not very expensive iron .
              1. Fat
                Fat April 12 2020 00: 40 New
                +1
                Quote: AllBiBek
                It is considered - by whom?

                Deposits of tin on the British islands have been known since the 15th century BC, in the Bronze Age they were not particularly developed, but in the Early Iron and all of Antiquity they gave this tin in such quantities that bronze was even cheaper than the already not very expensive iron .

                Anatoly, let me remind you ... The first iron of people is meteorite ...
                And this is not STEEL with all the consequences. Compared with the bronze alloys obtained in the "early experiments" nothing, at all ... So ... perspective
                1. AllBiBek
                  AllBiBek April 12 2020 00: 52 New
                  +2
                  Yes, I know. Also cold forging. The most ancient of what is immediately remembered is the axis of a chariot of some pharaoh somewhere around the 4th dynasty.

                  I just do not see at point blank the advantages of raw-iron over arsenic bronze.

                  There is a feeling that by inertia from chalcolithic (copper-stone age) metal played a decorative role. Status. To the extent that casting seams on stone products were massively imitated in the same pack of cultures of battle axes.

                  Massive abandonment of stone in everyday life - this is after the Bronze catastrophe.
            2. Andobor
              Andobor April 11 2020 23: 54 New
              0
              Quote: Korsar4
              After all, it is believed that tin stocks have depleted - I had to look for a replacement.

              Not tin was exhausted, but global ties were broken, and in those places where there was no tin or other components of bronze, they began to experiment with iron, it was also known in bronze to develop technologies. But not immediately, about five centuries there was a decline - dark centuries.
              1. Fat
                Fat April 12 2020 00: 48 New
                +1
                With iron experts did not have much. Technology coexisted ...
                Let me remind you. Primal Iron is not Steel. A modest substitute for good bronze.
              2. AllBiBek
                AllBiBek April 12 2020 01: 01 New
                +3
                Yes, there was no tin bronze in significant amounts in the Bronze Age, school history textbooks unscrupulously lie in this regard. Almost all of it is either arsenic, or antimony, or lead in general. Rarely - still in silver.

                Mass bronze as an alloy of copper and tin is already Antiquity.
    2. Operator
      Operator April 11 2020 21: 24 New
      0
      Golem mastering shipbuilding technology, not?
      1. AllBiBek
        AllBiBek April 11 2020 21: 46 New
        +2
        No.

        In this area for that period the same regression as in all others.
        1. Operator
          Operator April 11 2020 21: 52 New
          0
          Are you talking about whom - about the peoples of the sea or about their victims?
          1. AllBiBek
            AllBiBek April 11 2020 22: 02 New
            +3
            About shipbuilding in general.

            The phrase "sea peoples" is on everyone's lips, but, oddly enough, they usually attacked from land.

            And so, maritime trade at the junction of Bronze and Iron died almost first.

            Stupidly there were no seaside cities, people went inland, mainly in the mountains.
            1. Korsar4
              Korsar4 April 11 2020 22: 11 New
              +1
              And can this joint in the whole world be accurately dated?
            2. Operator
              Operator April 11 2020 22: 13 New
              0
              I looked at historical literature with ancient Egyptian data on the peoples of the sea - all of them carried out their raids on the coastal areas of Egypt exclusively with the help of boats.

              The land Hyksos, who temporarily conquered Lower Egypt with the help of chariots, operated 600 years earlier.
              1. AllBiBek
                AllBiBek April 11 2020 22: 28 New
                +3
                Uh ... How else could they have nightmares in Egypt?

                As for the chronology of the "Bronze Age Crisis" - everything seems to be clear there, 12-10 BC.
                1. Operator
                  Operator April 11 2020 22: 58 New
                  0
                  Through the Sinai as the Hyksos, of course.

                  As for the so-called catastrophes of the Bronze Age, then I can only express an exclusively hypothetical opinion - some Caucasian tribe (suppose flies) learned to produce and process iron in commercial quantities, after which it showed all the inhabitants of the Anatolian Peninsula, the Levant and the Balkans (who were still in the bronze century), where crayfish live.

                  Since the inventors of commodity iron technology coincided in terms of the set of haplogroups with the locals (with the exception of the Balkans), their genetic footprint is difficult to trace - with the exception of Greece, where you can compare the genotype of the locals before the 12th century BC. and after for the appearance of Asia Minor J2.

                  A more exotic option is also possible - in the genotype of modern Greeks in an anomalously large proportion there is a completely non-European haplogroup L, which indicates the resettlement of immigrants from the Hindustan Peninsula to the Balkans, who along the way could bring rustle to Asia Minor and at the same time acquaint local residents with iron production.
                  1. AllBiBek
                    AllBiBek April 11 2020 23: 15 New
                    +2
                    Well, something like that was.
                    The Hittites adopted the technology of mining and processing iron just somewhere in the Caucasus and from one of the autochthons.

                    And then stupidly monopolized the region.

                    Selling iron to ancestors of Jews is not even worth its weight in gold, but four times more expensive - they are really handsome.
                    1. Operator
                      Operator April 11 2020 23: 38 New
                      0
                      I like the version with migrating immigrants from the Indus Valley (previously culturally assimilated Arians), frostbitten all over my head.

                      Moreover, no one has yet been able to identify the peoples of the sea in relation to the local tribes of Anatolians, Caucasians or Iranians.
      2. faterdom
        faterdom April 11 2020 22: 54 New
        +1
        Shipbuilding has already been mastered. By the Phoenicians. They were practically monopolists in shipping.
        It is another matter that trade and sea routes were destroyed for centuries by this invasion, and the "peoples of the sea" themselves became a new Greek and Asia Minor elite, and only then re-mastered trade. And so a couple of centuries passed in complete desolation and extinction, pirates ruled the seas completely and completely.
        But shipbuilding and navigation itself was for a long time behind the Phoenicians, right up to the fall of Carthage, and further the inhabitants of the Mediterranean islands were suppliers of naval forces and merchant fleets for all future actors: Byzantium, Turkey, Venice, and even the Russian fleet has something to thank the Greeks for.
        1. Operator
          Operator April 11 2020 23: 09 New
          0
          I had in mind another - that 3300 years ago, the shipbuilding technology was finally mastered by the peoples of the sea.

          After that, with the help of our own technology of commercial production of iron, they showed all the "bronzed" who are the boss in the Mediterranean.
          1. AllBiBek
            AllBiBek April 11 2020 23: 24 New
            0
            There is no sharp increase in iron per capita. It will begin in five hundred years, the Assyrians will try.
            1. Operator
              Operator April 11 2020 23: 41 New
              0
              If an iron dagger in Egypt was worth its weight in gold, then any "imported" technology that made iron cheaper by only an order of magnitude would have gone with a bang.

              And then you can begin to work on further cheapening.
              1. AllBiBek
                AllBiBek April 11 2020 23: 51 New
                +4
                Not worth its weight in gold. Four times more expensive.
                And twenty times something more expensive than silver.

                At the end of the Bronze Age catastrophe, it was still more expensive than silver, but already cheaper than gold. And one fig, the bulk of the weapon was bronze.

                I personally do not understand the advantage of that iron even over that bronze. Soft and rust. It also does not lend itself to casting.

                If there is an opportunity not to switch to metals, people will not switch to it, as an example, all of South America. They have the world's largest reserves of copper, that of tin, and in a native form (in the Mediterranean, copper was mostly smelted from minerals), but - in addition, they have enormous outcrops of obsidian there, and this was enough for both life and wars, and monumental construction.

                The stone plate is really sharp enough to give odds to any metal knife.
                1. Operator
                  Operator April 12 2020 00: 14 New
                  -4
                  Iron does not even cut bronze in steel due to the combination of strength and sharpness. The hardness of bronze and the sharpness of the stone - they do not combine together.

                  Plus, the wide availability (in comparison with indigenous copper deposits) of the resource base of that time - in the form of swamp ore. The secret of iron smelting technology was to a greater extent in fluxes, which allowed to reduce the temperature of conversion of iron oxide to metal.
                  1. AllBiBek
                    AllBiBek April 12 2020 00: 33 New
                    +2
                    Yah?

                    The same China sat on bronze until the first centuries of our era, and quite successfully fought off bronze weapons from the same Huns, and before them from the chateau. And the chateau is the best blacksmiths of its time.

                    There, of course, horsemen not chained to iron, felt and leather mainly, but nonetheless.

                    The iron sword of all times BC easily bends about the knee, provided that it is longer than the elbow. That's why they are so short. This applies equally to gladius, copis, and sika. Stitching, chopping, and cutting type of blade, respectively.
                    1. Operator
                      Operator April 12 2020 01: 31 New
                      0
                      But what, before chopping a bronze sword or armor, the iron sword must be bent into an arc? laughing
                      1. AllBiBek
                        AllBiBek April 12 2020 02: 00 New
                        +2
                        Well, breaking up to straighten swords was a normal thing in the first centuries of our era. And bending it several times before putting it in the grave is a standard practice for the same Sarmatians since the Middle Sarmatian period.
                      2. Operator
                        Operator April 12 2020 02: 07 New
                        0
                        You are talking about cavalry longblade swords, and I'm talking about infantry type gladiuses.

                        When you chop the edge of a blade, it does not bend.
                2. Fat
                  Fat April 12 2020 01: 13 New
                  0
                  Andrew! The question is steel! steel and iron products differ in 1000 years ... Steel is a unique alloy of iron with carbon. Iron itself was known to ancestors before. It was easier to get than to use.
                  1. Operator
                    Operator April 12 2020 01: 40 New
                    0
                    The question is in the ore base - where did the inhabitants of Central and Eastern Europe get copper ore (in contrast to the swamp ore, which was in bulk behind the outskirts of each settlement)?

                    And in Western Europe there was stress with copper ore, with the exception of fingerprinted deposits, which were tightly controlled by separate tribes such as the Etruscans, who panicked on the Apennine peninsula until they were defeated by the Cisalpian Gauls and local Latins came to the fore, taking control of the copper deposits .
                    1. AllBiBek
                      AllBiBek April 12 2020 01: 44 New
                      +1
                      Uh ... The main deposits of copper in Europe - in Bulgaria and Poland in general.
                    2. Operator
                      Operator April 12 2020 01: 47 New
                      0
                      They were developed in the 12th century BC?
                    3. AllBiBek
                      AllBiBek April 12 2020 01: 54 New
                      +1
                      Конечно.

                      Google catacomb cultures, pit, or - since you need 12 to ours - the same logging in that region. They are fully locally sourced. Moreover, they drove copper for export.
                    4. Operator
                      Operator April 12 2020 02: 02 New
                      0
                      In any case, Polish, Bulgarian, Apennine deposits are quite suitable for definition, read on the fingers, unlike the swamp behind the outskirts of any village.

                      Once again: the iron blade always cut bronze, bronze bronze - not always, which gave an undeniable advantage to armed iron blades. Other hardware could be made of bronze.
              2. Fat
                Fat April 12 2020 03: 37 New
                +1
                There were a lot of copper, up to native in Europe, but by little things. Bronze has never been given to nations as something beyond the limits. Copper was not smelted separately. It is always eutectic or lead rock, or similar in properties. You can get kings in a bonfire. Cassiterite is tin; this is more likely the exception.
                When a full-fledged ceramic was drawn, casting became possible.
                Iron at those temperatures - the dough, what is casting in J.? But they have already begun to sculpt something.
                Iron went hand in hand with bronze technology. Iron, unlike copper more, is everywhere. And recovery requires one process. Carbon monoxide recovery .... Iron-cast iron does not need to be far mined. China, an example of a scorching iron ... in the years of the cultural revolution ...
              3. Operator
                Operator April 12 2020 04: 01 New
                0
                From the 12th century to about the 4th century BC iron was mainly used for the manufacture of blades, sickles, and other blade products. Plate products such as armor and helmets of Roman legionnaires appeared only after mastering the technology for producing steel - a solid solution of carbon in iron, which gave the resulting material bronze hardness.

                Which further expanded the resource base for the production of hardware (carbon was gratuitous compared to tin).

                Long cavalry blades began to be produced at the beginning of our era, when they mastered the manufacture of composite iron-steel products by welding.
            2. faterdom
              faterdom April 12 2020 12: 56 New
              +1
              The problem was not with copper, but with tin. And it is only in Albion, and only the Phoenicians knew the way there. Copper without tin is not a war metal, like gold. Beautiful, but soft.
      3. Fat
        Fat April 12 2020 01: 42 New
        0
        Powerful! Then nafik smelted gold cast? Metals were appreciated, but were used in everyday life in no way.
        I think then Phidias with his chrysoelephantine creations is an example of budget savings ...))))
      4. Sergey Zhikharev
        Sergey Zhikharev April 12 2020 11: 18 New
        +1
        If it’s possible not to switch to metals, people don’t switch to it,

        And not vice versa?
        If there is an opportunity to switch to metals - people switch to it.
  • Fat
    Fat April 12 2020 01: 05 New
    0
    Thanks for the comment, Andrey. I will search and think ...
    PS Too much scatter of times. Muzzle in the beach sand, maybe not ...
    But the idea is strong ...
  • Caretaker
    Caretaker April 11 2020 22: 05 New
    0
    Tevets (Morbihan, Brittany, France). Toulouse Museum
    Where is Brittany, and where is Toulouse?
    You did not confuse?
    1. Undecim
      Undecim April 12 2020 00: 38 New
      +3
      The place where the skull is found is Morbihan, Brittany, France.
      The place where he is today is the Toulouse Museum.
  • Undecim
    Undecim April 11 2020 23: 59 New
    +6
    Well, already in our time it was known that in the very center of the North Sea there is a sandbank, which is called Dogger Bank and which became famous for the fact that during the First World War a battle of British and German battlecruisers happened near it. Bank as a bank - you never know them in the world.
    Even before the cruisers fought near Dogger banks, it was known that this was the former land on which people lived.
    This happened in prehistoric times, not preserved in human memory, at a time when it was possible, without soaking feet, to pass from France (as we now call it) to England and when the broad Thames lazily carried its waters between the marshy shores towards its father, The Rhine, which crossed the vast plain, which is now under water and is known to us as the North Sea. In those distant times, lowlands at the foot of the chalky hills of Southern England did not yet exist, and in the south of Surrey a ridge of spruce-covered mountains stretched, whose peaks were covered with snow most of the year. The remains of these peaks have survived to this day - these are Lays Hill, Pitch Hill and Hindhead. On the lower slopes beyond the belt of meadows where wild horses grazed, yews, chestnuts and elms grew, and gray bears and hyenas hid in the dark thickets, and gray monkeys climbed the branches. At the foot of this ridge, among the forests, swamps and meadows on the banks of the Way River, that little drama that I am going to tell has played out. Fifty thousand years have passed since fifty thousand, if the calculations of geologists are correct.
    This is the first paragraph of HG Wells's It Was in the Stone Age, 1897.
    The first finds of the remains of plants, tools and animal bones date back to 1913. In 1915, the British archaeologist Arthur Keith in the book The Antiquity of Man already characterized this place as very promising in terms of archeology and the study of human evolution.
    1. AllBiBek
      AllBiBek April 12 2020 00: 03 New
      +2
      At that time, the entire geological scale was equal to several million years. This is according to the most daring calculations of those years.
      1. Undecim
        Undecim April 12 2020 00: 16 New
        +4
        At that time (1913), the geological scale was 1 years.
        1. Undecim
          Undecim April 12 2020 00: 47 New
          +3
          Typo !!! I am making a correction - 1 years. Billion and six hundred million.
          1. AllBiBek
            AllBiBek April 12 2020 01: 17 New
            +2
            Well, yes, I confess, a little confused.

            At that time, they had already discovered radioactive decay, and Rutherford just withdrew these one and a half billion with copecks.

            Prior to that, different methods of calculation gave a figure from several million to several billion years, and, as time has shown, those who were not shy in evaluations were right.
            1. Fat
              Fat April 12 2020 02: 03 New
              +2
              Anatoly. Thank you for the ratings and many thanks to the author for the topic for discussion.
              We will wait for the continuation ... I hope the brain spray on our stone axes will not have time to dry up ... laughing wassat
              1. kalibr
                April 12 2020 07: 12 New
                +2
                Quote: Thick
                We will wait for the continuation ... I hope the brain spray on our stone axes will not have time to dry up ...

                Not a day without a line! The slogan of the last five years!
                1. Fat
                  Fat April 12 2020 08: 01 New
                  0
                  If this is addressed to me, then it is fair.)))
                  Before, "everything was fine" ....
                  And then, croutons were burnt .....))))
                  Thank you Oleg Vyacheslavovich once again for an interesting topic. And where do you find the buttons. Always interesting .....
                  1. kalibr
                    April 12 2020 08: 07 New
                    +3
                    Quote: Thick
                    And where do you find the buttons. Always interesting .....

                    I find the buttons in my head. But my manner has become bad, it is written only according to the mood. You stare at the screen, and it's all in the files of article templates. And my inner voice is swaggering - I don’t want to talk about tanks, well, I don’t want a continuation about cuirassiers, I’m tired of it, there are a lot of pictures here, you get tired of inserting them. Here the text is some kind of abstruse ... And then he will immediately say - "that's it, write!" And you sit and write!
                    1. Fat
                      Fat April 12 2020 08: 26 New
                      +2
                      Not otherwise the holy spirit directs.)))
                      "Oh, to find that spirit, but mark it in the ear ... Even though you are blue blood, even though you are a light bone, I will reach Christ and I know, I will not favor ....." (C)
                      1. kalibr
                        April 12 2020 11: 22 New
                        0
                        Quote: Thick
                        Not otherwise the holy spirit directs.)))

                        And do not say!
    2. kalibr
      April 12 2020 07: 14 New
      +1
      Quote: Undecim
      This is the first paragraph of HG Wells's It Was in the Stone Age, 1897.

      By the way, just a wonderful book about the Stone Age. Who has not read - read!
  • ycuce234-san
    ycuce234-san April 12 2020 14: 18 New
    0
    But where did the “material” come from for these landslides? It was brought by streams and rivers from a melting glacier. For several millennia, river sediments were deposited on the edge of the Norwegian continental shelf and there were more and more of them. And then there was an underwater earthquake, and all this huge mass of silt and sand came into motion and crawled down a steep slope further into the ocean. A landslide captured along the length of about 290 km of the coast, and the volume of displaced was approximately 3500 cubic meters. km, which is a lot, because with such a quantity of rock it would be completely possible to cover the whole of Iceland with a layer 34 meters thick.

    It is impossible to repeat such a catastrophe, since over 8000 years of rainfall has not accumulated enough, but small landslides can well cause tsunamis. Therefore, it makes sense to somehow lower the material or to develop it industrially, for example, receiving cement in a floating solar furnace.
  • DWG1905
    DWG1905 April 12 2020 16: 53 New
    0
    An interesting description of a local event. But there is a fundamental remark. What are landslides and what is such an ice age? About twenty years ago I was given the task of organizing research work on forecasting. If for a simple need to write TK find an artist. He began to communicate with various specialists. This is where the question of changing the geographical poles of the earth came up. Since there are many other reasons to explain many phenomena (a sharp change in climate, an increase or decrease in the level of the ocean, etc., etc.) that do not radically change the course of historical processes. To date, there is no explanation for the process of changing geographic poles; there are various theories. This is mainly theoretical mechanics. Official science is silent on this score (probably so as not to scare people). In general, there are theories of right and wrong and recognized and unrecognized. I, as a customer, were not interested in recognized theories (recognized by lovers of academic titles and those who feed on this), I needed the correct ones. Research has failed and failed for various reasons related to the human factor. But the era of the Internet has come and enthusiasts have found each other. In short, the geographical position of the pole is calculated according to several criteria. Orientation of various cult and other structures, soil deposits and puff sediment pies, permafrost layers, etc. etc. There are many signs of sudden changes in physical and geographical conditions. The issue of systematization and interpretation of the results. Therefore, who cares https://cont.ws/@rodline/624089