Stoner 63. Service at SEAL. Auction prices


SEAL fighter Greg McPartlin with a Stoner machine gun in his hands. Vietnam, 1968-1969. Photo: “The Coronado Times”


In March 1962, SEAL special forces units (seals) were sent to South Vietnam as military advisers, as well as for hydrographic support. However, a year later, the CIA began using SEAL fighters in its covert operations. For example, they carried out reconnaissance, landing and sabotage operations. And also shared their experience with the soldiers of the Armed Forces of South Vietnam.

The author managed to find several photos in an article related to this topic in The Coronado Times. It should be noted that Coronado (Coronado, California, USA) is the name of the city, next to which is located the same name base of the Navy. The 1st Separate SEAL Regiment is deployed at the base.

The article is dedicated to a military doctor named Greg McPartlin. He served on SEAL, a veteran of the Vietnam War, and author of Combat Corpsman. The book describes operations around the world in which he managed to participate. For example, Greg McPartlin performed a mission in the landing area of ​​the lunar module of the Apollo 11 spacecraft. According to the official version, there were astronauts on the moon in the module. Much later, Greg was a military consultant during the filming of Pearl Harbor. And about Vietnam in his book there is such a phrase: "A lot of tags and bags ..."

Stoner 63. Service at SEAL. Auction prices

All "seals" are armed with various configurations of the Stoner 63. On the shoulder of the fighter on the right is a machine gun with a disconnected butt. Photo: “The Coronado Times”


Greg McPartlin with a Stoner 63 machine gun in his hands. Vietnam, 1968-1969. Photo: “The Coronado Times”

The young man Greg MacPartlin joined the Navy and became a nurse. He was assigned to the 3rd Deep Intelligence Company (3rd FORECON). In 1968, his unit was sent to Vietnam, just in time for the beginning of the Tet offensive by the Vietnamese communists.

Returning from the first "business trip", Greg was sent to the diving school of the US Navy (Key West, Florida). Upon completion of training, he was appointed to the SEAL team, a platoon of Alfa, and was assigned to the Coronado base. Our orderly went through the entire training course along with special forces soldiers. The only test he was freed from was Hell Week. Soon he went to Vietnam for the second time.

Thus, the paramedic became a fighter of an elite unit. And during the patrol, he took with him not only a first-aid kit with medicines, but also a machine gun with a tape feed. Greg McPartlin recalled that he loved his Stoner. Weight weapons was relatively small, he scribbled regularly, and the return was almost not felt.

Shops


It is well known that much is permitted to soldiers in war. For example, to fight with captured weapons. Or use enemy equipment. The main thing is that the soldier complete the task. So it was during the Vietnam War. American soldiers went into battle with captured AK and RPD, with pleasure carried trophy "unloading", finalized their full-time weapons, etc. Pay attention to the photo below.


A fighter with automatic weapons in his hands. Pay attention to the home-made pair and barrel length. Frame from the documentary chronicle of the Vietnam War

In the photo we see a fighter in a discharge vest. It is believed that this is a captured “bib” Type 56 (or 58) Chinese-made. The so-called Chi-Kom (Chinese Communist), which is designed to carry 3 stores for AK and hand grenades.

Also pay attention to the weapon in the hands of the fighter. The gas pipe is located below, but this is not an RPD. The shape of the fore-end, butt and handle indicate that this is clearly a Stoner system. You already know that the barrel above the gas pipe was mounted on light machine guns with magazine and tape power. The reloading handle under the fore-end is an additional confirmation of this. But Stoner's store-fed machine gun is similar to the Bren. It turns out that in front of us is a Stoner machine gun with tape power. Again, pay attention to the unusual form of home-made pair. These are 2 cartridge boxes connected together under the letter “G”.


Stoner machine gun with tape power. Power comes from a standard cartridge box. Photo: Forgotten Weapons

The standard box contains 100-round tape. In Vietnam, the side wall of the main box was cut out and an additional one was attached to it. As a result of their combination, the machine gunner received an ammunition box of increased capacity, with a tape for 180-200 rounds.

I also ask you to pay attention (previous photo) to the lack of bipods standard for the machine gun, as well as the barrel length. This is the shortest Commando machine gun barrel. Apparently, the hero of Vietnam was more convenient to get through the jungle with a short-barreled machine gun, but with a cartridge box of increased capacity.

The US Marines also adapted for their Stoners round round cartridges from the Degtyarev light machine gun (RPD). They were so popular among the fighters that the manufacturer soon offered on the basis of the RPD box their own development for 5,56 × 45 cartridges and with mounts suitable for the Stoner system. She held the tape for 150 rounds. Perhaps the prototypes were cartridge boxes for machine guns modernized in Holland, which were tested in the United States under the designation XM207.


Stoner machine gun with tape power and round cartridge box. There is an ammunition box (M2A1) holding 800 rounds of 5,56 × 45


An open cartridge box with a stacked ribbon of 150 rounds. Frame from the documentary chronicle of the Vietnam War

TTX Stoner 63



It is believed that Eugene Stoner developed the Stoner 63 complex, using the experience gained while working on the M16 rifle, not just to improve it, but to replace it in the army.

Relying on an improved system design, on the ability to configure one or another type of small arms from the modules, the designer planned that the Stoner 63 would serve to replace not only the M16 itself, but also the M1 Garand, M14 rifles, as well as the Browning M1918 machine guns (BAR) and M60. According to the designer's idea, a high degree of unification of units and assemblies would greatly facilitate all stages: from production and logistics to its maintenance and application. And from an economic point of view, unification also promised certain benefits.

Despite the seemingly obvious advantages of the Stoner 63 system and the numerous laudations of the fighters from Vietnam, the modular weapon system of the Stoner system did not meet the designer's expectations.

Yes, it was limitedly used in real combat conditions during the Vietnam conflict by US Navy special forces (SEAL) and Marine Corps. Yes, after a detailed study of the operation of the mechanisms, the individual "fit" of each sample, as well as the use of better cartridges, the fighters made sure that they received excellent weapons. After successful trials in Vietnam, the Stoner 63 pilot batch also received US ground forces. A scanty number of complexes arrived and US law enforcement. According to unconfirmed reports, a small amount of Stoner 63 was used during the US military operation to invade Grenada (1983).

The only unit that continued to use this weapon was the US Navy Special Forces (SEAL). To solve their problems, “seals” chose a tape machine gun. But they were not happy with the length of the barrel. Specially for SEAL, a shortened machine gun barrel was developed. The new version of the machine gun (63A1) received the designation "Commando", under the index "Mk 23 Mod 0" the weapon was adopted by the US Navy. The Stoner machine gun in the Commando configuration was used by the US Navy special forces until the end of the 80s. At that time, rearmament took place, and the Stoner 63 was replaced by the M249 SAW light machine gun (version FN Minimi). The remaining machine guns of the Stoner system were disposed of.

We started talking about the acquisition. Depending on the condition and configuration, the cost of the Stoner 63 complex is estimated at between $ 35,000 - $ 75,000. So, at a well-known online auction, the Stoner 63 machine gun with a tape power was sold for $ 69 thousand.

The history of one auction lot


This item was an “item with history". We are talking about the Stoner 63 complex in the "assault rifle" configuration with serial number 001461.

By the way, Stoner 63 is one of the rarest and most valuable items of the Vietnam War, which are available for private collecting. The National Firearms act registry only lists a few original Stoner from Cadillac Gage, and this item is one of them.


Stoner 63 with serial number 001461. Photo (here and below): Morphy auction


Thanks to the examination carried out before bidding, the path of the rifle 54 years long became known. It was found that this product was manufactured on 18.11.1965/12.01.1966/30.08.1966, and on 05.05.1968/XNUMX/XNUMX was sent to the warehouse of the Marine Corps. The manufacturer (Cadillac Gage) received it back on XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX. The weapons were stored in the manufacturer’s warehouse for about two years, and then (XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX) the rifle was transferred to the police department of Saint Clair Shores, Michigan. Some time later, Dr. Leon Mitchell from Massachusetts became the owner of the weapon, and then Ralph Merrill from Utah.

In total, in August 1966, the US ILC returned 286 Stoner 63 units to the manufacturer. Almost all of them were disposed of, and very few of them were preserved due to the fact that they were transferred to law enforcement agencies in the states of Michigan, California and New York. The rifle with serial number 001461 is the only one that was sent to the St. Clare Shores Police Department.







Complete set: 4 shops and a cartridge pouch.
Estimated cost: $ 40 - $ 75 thousand
Minimum bid: $ 20 thousand
Number of bets: 11.
Sold for $ 60 thousand.
Closing (selling) date: 23.10.2019/XNUMX/XNUMX.
Point of sale: Morphy weapons auction.

In total, Cadillac Gage released no more than 4 thousand copies of Stoner 63 of all configurations and modifications. Of these, 170 slide boxes were produced at the Costa Mesa plant (California). Serial numbers from one to 000230 were used, and the range 00040-00100 was never applied. At the plant in Warren (Michigan), the bolt boxes began to be marked, starting with the number 000231. It was not possible to obtain data on all numbers.

Why didn’t such a successful complex receive proper distribution? Since the days of ancient Rome, nothing has changed: "Look for who benefits from it." Find the names of the corporations that for several decades produced M16 rifles and M60 machine guns and filled them half the world. Perhaps this will be the answer to the question.

Stoner 63A system in the cinema



Quantum Leap / Quantum Leap (USA, 1989-1993). Sam Beckett (Scott Bakula), Stoner 63 tape machine gun

Video Games



Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater (2004). Stoner machine gun in the Commando configuration for the US Navy special forces


Metal Gear Solid: Peace Walker (2010). Stoner's machine gun in the Commando configuration for the US Navy special forces. pay attention to the shortened trunk


Bad Company 2 Vietnam (2010). Machine gun Stoner 63 "Commando" (left-hand power)


Call of Duty: Black Ops (2010). Stoner 63A assault rifle configuration


Killing Floor 2 (2017). Machine gun Stoner 63A "Commando"

Stoner M63A for airsoft


G&P Industrial (Hong Kong) has developed and is producing a replica of the Stoner system in the airsoft version for airsoft games. G&P opted for the 63A1 in a “belt powered machine gun” configuration. The model has received the designation G&P M63A1 Tactical Rail Version.

Magazine capacity: 1200 balls.
Caliber: 6 mm.
Initial ball speed: 120-130 m / s (395 FPS).
Weight: 4,6 kg.

Depending on the seller and his location, the price ranges from $ 439.99 - € 749,90. In Russia, the G&P M63A1 is offered for 60 thousand rubles.


Stoner 63A1 for airsoft. Photo: RedWolf Airsoft Store



In the next part, you will learn about some weapons that are a development of the 1963 Stoner system.

To be continued ...

Stoner 63 in the "belt feed machine gun" configuration. SEAL veterans recall documentary chronicle (Vietnam)
Author:
Photos used:
en.wikipedia.org, en.wikipedia.org, patents.justia.com, trademarkia.com, patents.google.com, www.icollector.com, morphyauctions.com, rockislandauction.com, gunbroker.com, armslist.com, ipfs.io, joyreactor.cc coronadotimes.com, northwestfirearms.com, weaponland.ru gunsinternational.com, smallarmsreview.com, defensereview.com, coronadotimes.com, The World's Assault Rifles (Gary Paul Johnston, Thomas B. Nelson)
Articles from this series:
Stoner 63: Eugene Stoner's modular weapon system
Stoner 63: Survival Carabiner and Bullpup Rifle
Stoner 63: Shutter box. Baptism of Fire in Vietnam
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  1. Sergey_G_M 28 March 2020 09: 23 New
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    Thanks for the article, the history of the creation and testing of especially the military is very interesting.
    The truth about the auction lot, I did not really understand, it seems like an object with a “history”, but I did not participate in the war, it was far from the first in the series, and I didn’t shoot the famous bandit in the police service, but as it seems, everything in the arms is everything time lay, it is not clear where is the "story".
    1. Mister X 28 March 2020 10: 42 New
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      Quote: Sergey_G_M
      Thank you for the article,

      hi Thank you for rating!
      Quote: Sergey_G_M
      I did not quite understand, like an object with a "history", but did not participate in the war

      I am not a collector, but since the owners of this item are known, it can be called with “history”.

      Experts found that in the period from 12.01.1966/30.08.1966/XNUMX to XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX this sample was in the possession of the Marine Corps.
      As we already know, in the winter of 1967, the Lima company already participated in battles in Vietnam.
      It is also known that the United States sent military advisers to Vietnam back in 1962.
      It is possible that our machine gun managed to fight in Vietnam.
      1. Alex777 29 March 2020 23: 11 New
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        Apparently, the hero of Vietnam was more convenient to get through the jungle with a short-barreled machine gun, but with a cartridge box of increased capacity.

        For the Yankees, he is perhaps a hero ...
        But for us, I’m not at all sure.
        1. Mister X 30 March 2020 09: 00 New
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          Quote: Alex777
          For the Yankees, he is perhaps a hero ...

          And for the Vietnamese?
          1. Alex777 31 March 2020 17: 40 New
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            The article is published with us.
            In Vietnam, I would not have come out in this form.
            1. Mister X 31 March 2020 20: 00 New
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              Quote: Alex777
              In Vietnam, I would not have come out in this form.

              You're right. Vietnam has its own heroes.
              Moreover, the South and North had their own.
  2. Okolotochny 28 March 2020 10: 05 New
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    By the way, for the system in the cinema, the film “Fight”, where Al Pacino (a policeman) and De Niro (a hijacker) were shot - in the last frames, where the police are chasing a gang in Al Pacino’s hands (in my opinion) an assault rifle from an article. I could be wrong. Author, do not look?
    1. Mister X 28 March 2020 10: 57 New
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      Quote: Okolotochny
      in the hands of Al Pacino (in my opinion) the assault rifle from the article.

      hi
      Al Pacino has a Belgian rifle FN FNC
      1. Okolotochny 28 March 2020 10: 59 New
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        Soryan, looked a long time ago, the rifle was remembered by the difference from the M16.
        1. Mister X 28 March 2020 11: 11 New
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          Quote: Okolotochny
          Soryan, looked a long time ago, the rifle was remembered by the difference from the M16.

          There was also M16.
          Rifles and carbines that are identified in the movie "Fight":
          1) Colt Model 654;
          2) Colt Model 733;
          3) FN FNC;
          4) FN FAL;
          5) Heckler & Koch HK91A2;
          6) IMI Galil ARM;
          7) M16A1 (forend from M16A2);
          8) Norinco Type 56-1 (Chinese copy of the AKC with a folding metal butt);
          9) Heckler & Koch SR9T ("Target" sniper rifle).
          1. Sergey_G_M 28 March 2020 11: 47 New
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            Yes, the film is good, with a weapon there a good picture was made and the shootings were very gingerly and accurately shot.
            True, it seemed to me everything was clear in terms of arms, it is more interesting what Al Pacino took for the TV when he left his wife, it is very valuable! ))) It is necessary to revise the film)))
            1. Mister X 28 March 2020 12: 14 New
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              Quote: Sergey_G_M
              more interesting what kind of TV Al Pacino took when he left his wife

              Better ask Al Pacino or his ex wink
              In another film, the hero was very dear to his mixer, but he was stolen by the “stomp” from the observation group.
              Then he figured them out, put on cuffs, and took his favorite mixer wassat
              1. cat Rusich 30 March 2020 22: 57 New
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                About "favorite mixer" - the film "Enemy of the State" 1998, the actor who played the owner of the mixer - Will Smith. Taking "trophies" for employees of "state security" is unprofessional, however, these are Americans ...
                1. Mister X 31 March 2020 09: 36 New
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                  Quote: cat Rusich
                  About the "favorite mixer" - the film "Enemy of the State"

                  You seem right)
      2. Horst78 28 March 2020 12: 22 New
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        And it seemed to me that Beretta AR70 / 90 what?
        forearm is the same.
        1. Mister X 28 March 2020 13: 02 New
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          Quote: Horst78
          And it seemed to me that Beretta AR70 / 90

          The shape of the forearm is different
          1. Horst78 28 March 2020 13: 21 New
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            Rifle AR-70/223
            Carabiner SCS-70/90. In my opinion, Al Pacino has a carbine.
            1. Okolotochny 28 March 2020 14: 07 New
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              Quite possible. Al has Italian roots))) Yes, and the Godfather makes itself felt)))
            2. Mister X 28 March 2020 14: 18 New
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              Quote: Horst78
              In my opinion, Al Pacino has a carbine.

              This is a modification of the FNC-80, adopted in Sweden under the designation AK-5.
              Alternative designation CGA5 (Carl Gustav Automatic) 5



              1. Horst78 28 March 2020 14: 54 New
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                Maybe. On the 1st frame, this is better seen. hi
                1. Mister X 28 March 2020 15: 01 New
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                  Quote: Horst78
                  Maybe. On the 1st frame, this is better seen.

                  In some ways you are right.
                  AK-5 stands for Automatkarbin (automatic carbine) hi
                  1. saygon66 1 June 2020 15: 31 New
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                    - Exactly FN .... For carbines and rifles from FN, the front swivel is characteristic ...
  3. Undecim 28 March 2020 10: 50 New
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    In the photo we see a fighter in a discharge vest. It is believed that this is a captured Type 58 Chinese bib. The so-called Chi-Kom (Chinese Communist), which is designed to carry 3 stores for AK and hand grenades.

    This is a Chinese Type 56 AK Chest Rig.
    1. Okolotochny 28 March 2020 11: 01 New
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      The Chinese provided the same unloading to the irreconcilable in Afghanistan.
    2. Mister X 28 March 2020 11: 19 New
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      Quote: Undecim
      This is a Chinese Type 56 AK Chest Rig.

      You're right. Spent a lot of time searching, but there was no complete certainty that the fighter wears Type 58.
      Therefore, he signed the photo: "There is an opinion."
  4. Undecim 28 March 2020 10: 57 New
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    Also pay attention to the weapon in the hands of the fighter.
    We draw.

    I also ask you to pay attention (previous photo) to the lack of bipods standard for the machine gun, as well as the barrel length. This is the shortest and lightest barrel, which is designed for configuration "carabiner". Apparently, the hero of Vietnam was more convenient to get through the jungle with a short-barreled machine gun, but with an increased ammunition box.
    The barrel “carabiner” cannot be installed on the machine gun, since it does not have a gas valve, so the machine gun will not work with tape power.
    In the photo on the barrel, characteristic longitudinal grooves for cooling the barrel, which are not present on the "carbine" variant, are visible. This is the Commando barrel, which was 398,8 mm long, unlike the standard barrel, which was 508 mm long.
    1. Undecim 28 March 2020 10: 59 New
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      In the photo we see a fighter in a discharge vest. It is believed that this is a captured Type 58 Chinese bib. The so-called Chi-Kom (Chinese Communist), which is designed to carry 3 stores for AK and hand grenades.

      This is Type 56 AK Chest Rig.
      1. Mister X 28 March 2020 11: 20 New
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        Quote: Undecim
        This is Type 56 AK Chest Rig.

        You are already repeating ...
        1. Undecim 28 March 2020 16: 44 New
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          This is not me repeating myself. This is an attempt to insert two photos into one comment.
          1. Mister X 28 March 2020 21: 03 New
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            Quote: Undecim
            This is not me repeating myself. This is an attempt to insert two photos into one comment.

            It took several hours to add another picture? wink
      2. Catfish 28 March 2020 13: 57 New
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        Good afternoon, Vic Nikolaitch! In the foreseeable future, will we receive an interesting article from you? Without your comments, we are nowhere, but I would like something larger. smile hi
    2. Mister X 28 March 2020 11: 26 New
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      Quote: Undecim
      This is the trunk of Commando

      Maybe you're right. On the trunk, longitudinal grooves are present.
      According to my data, Commando trunks were developed later.
      Therefore, I did not take it into account when comparing.
      1. Undecim 28 March 2020 17: 29 New
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        Maybe you're right. On the trunk, longitudinal grooves are present.
        According to my data, Commando trunks were developed later.

        We sort of found out this moment, your lack of ability to work fully with English-speaking sources greatly narrows your information base.

        Stoner 63A1 version of the carabiner. As you can see, the trunk is smooth.
        1. Undecim 28 March 2020 17: 42 New
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          By the way, in the biography of Stoner 63A1 there is another interesting stage - the Dutch.
          In the seventies, the Dutch company NWM (Nederlandse Wapen-en Munitie Fabriek) worked on the Post-70 Soldier weapons program. The Dutch decided that the Stoner 63A1 was the very thing and bought a license for the production of the Stoner 63A1 assault rifle (XM 22), carbine (XM 23) and MG MG (XM 207). The only significant improvement the Dutch made was the KCB-70 bayonet (Knife-Cutter-Bayonet 1970), made under the direct influence of the AKM bayonet-knife and which could be installed on all Stoner 63A1 weapon systems, as well as on the M16.

          But even despite the bayonet, the project failed.
          1. Mister X 28 March 2020 20: 21 New
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            Quote: Undecim
            By the way, in the biography of Stoner 63A1 there is another interesting stage - the Dutch.

            63A1 - designation of the Dutch modernized complex Stoner.
            Quote: Undecim
            The Dutch decided that Stoner 63A1 - that’s what they bought a license

            The Dutch bought a license for the Stoner 63A
            Quote: Undecim
            (XM 22), carbine (XM 23) and poodlemet MG (XM 207).

            This is the alphanumeric designation of the "Dutch" Stoners, which were sent to America, for their testing by the US Army and the Marine Corps.

            Perhaps I translated it incorrectly, check the fragment.
            Source: The World's Assault Rifles (Gary Paul Johnston, Thomas B. Nelson)

            I described these points in detail in Part 2 (Stoner 63: a carbine for survival)
            Have you studied it?
            1. Undecim 28 March 2020 23: 24 New
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              63A1 - designation of the Dutch modernized complex Stoner.
              I agree.
              The Dutch bought a license for the Stoner 63A
              That's right, here I have a typo.
              This is the alphanumeric designation of the "Dutch" Stoners, which were sent to America, for their testing by the US Army and the Marine Corps.
              No, these are the designations of the various layouts and modifications adopted for the Stoner 63 and Stoner 63A by the army and marine corps in order to distinguish all of these options.

              1: 9 and 1:12 is the designation of the pitch of the rifling, 230 and 305 mm, respectively. Another trunk was designed with a pitch of 200 mm, but it was not produced.
              1. Undecim 28 March 2020 23: 44 New
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                I described these points in detail in Part 2 (Stoner 63: a carbine for survival)
                Have you studied it?

                Not studied, if studied, the comment would have looked differently. Interestingly, sorry to have missed. True, you made one absolutely fantastic moment there.
                In the mid-50s, two stepbrothers inherited the business: Harald and Herbert Quandt. The most interesting thing is that Harald was the stepson, and Herbert was the son of Joseph Goebbels. To myself. Companion and one of the closest followers of Adolf Hitler.
                Herbert Quandt cannot be the son of Goebbels, since he was born in 1910, when Goebbels was 13 years old. Where did you get this information?
                1. Mister X 29 March 2020 10: 32 New
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                  Quote: Undecim
                  Herbert Quandt cannot be the son of Goebbels

                  You are not the only one so knowledgeable.
                  Why repeat what has already been said?
                  Are you bored of living squabble?
              2. Mister X 29 March 2020 10: 27 New
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                Quote: Undecim
                No, these are the designations of the various layouts and modifications adopted for the Stoner 63 and Stoner 63A

                You hesitated me with your clarifications ...
                This is how I wrote in the article:

                What do you dig into every squiggle?
          2. Mister X 28 March 2020 20: 31 New
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            Quote: Undecim
            The only significant improvement that the Dutch made is the bayonet

            Not the only one.
            The Dutch developed a folding butt for the Stoner 63A, much like the one on the German MP 38/40, and then on the Soviet AK + at least one more butt.
            Also at NWM De Kruithoorn they developed: a round cartridge box, bipod, muzzle attachment and rear sight.
            Details: Part 2 of my article (Stoner 63: Carabiner for Survival).
          3. Mister X 28 March 2020 20: 36 New
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            Quote: Undecim
            KCB-70 (Knife-Cutter-Bayonet 1970), made under the direct influence of the bayonet-knife AKM and which could be installed on all weapons systems Stoner 63A1, as well as on the M16.

            At the Stoner 63 enthusiast forum, I found a photo of the bayonet, but I could not identify the manufacturer by brand. So I skipped the bayonet description.
            Do you consider this omission critical for my article?

            Quote: Undecim
            But even despite the bayonet, the project failed.

            The reason was different.
            The US Secretary of Defense (Robert McNamara) demanded the greatest possible uniformity in both weapons and his service. This led to the fact that the Stoner 63A and 63A1 systems were removed from the agenda in favor of the M16 rifle, which was already being produced by Colt by that time.
            1. Undecim 29 March 2020 00: 09 New
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              Do you consider this omission critical for my article?
              No, not critical. In general, Stoner 63 had three bayonets. The one in your photo, the stigma of a squirrel with a sword - this is KCB 70 produced by the famous German company Eickhorn-Solingen.
              The standard American M7 was also used.
              And for the Dutch versions, the experimental bayonet of the Swiss company SIG - M1963 was still used. But it is very rare.

              The reason was different.
              Well, here you are too strict. I didn’t write that the bayonet served as the reason.
              1. Mister X 29 March 2020 10: 52 New
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                Quote: Undecim
                Well, here you are too strict. I didn’t write that the bayonet served as the reason.

                Funeral sobbing mother!
                Yes, how much can you climb with your corrections and additions?
                I asked you as a person: save my articles from your comments.
                I will live, and most of the readers without your annoying additions.
                I am not a student; I am not defending a dissertation for higher education.

                That's the cutest thing.
                Another comment - and I will go to extremes.
                Not only XI, but also the Decembrist Ryleev and the clown Oleg Popov will be banned.
                Is it clear to you?
        2. Undecim 28 March 2020 17: 59 New
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          And this is the Stoner 63A1 Commando. Longitudinal grooves on the trunk are clearly visible.
          1. Mister X 28 March 2020 20: 47 New
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            Quote: Undecim
            And this is the Stoner 63A1 Commando. Longitudinal grooves on the trunk are clearly visible.


            XM207 tape machine gun, aka “Dutch Stoner” with the designation 63A1
            That is, you posted a photo of the Dutch predecessor 63A1 "Commando".
            Later, they began to produce from the USA, and adopted it under the index "Mk 23 Mod 0".
            1. Undecim 29 March 2020 00: 35 New
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              In the caption for the photo, I really made a mistake - this is the Stoner 63A Commando.
              By the way, I found a better photo.

              As for the XM207, this is the designation Stoner 63 in the version of light machine gun with belt feed.
  5. Operator 28 March 2020 11: 13 New
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    Stoner 63 is an obvious engineering jamb: to ensure the modularity of the structure, its main parts (receiver, trigger, butt, forend, receiver and tape feed) are connected on pins that have the property of falling out, after which the structure self-disintegrates.

    In addition, Stoner 63 was also an unfinished construction - the spent cartridges and tape links tended to bounce back into the receiver and tightly wedge the reloading mechanism, after which the weapon, according to the shooters, became a "big iron club" (the mechanism could only be fixed in the weapons workshop )

    The U.S. Army categorically rejected such mocking, the enthusiastic reviews of individual veterans are nothing but show-offs - wishful thinking in an attempt to prove that the United States in Vietnam had something better than the first modification of the M16 with its golemny 20-round magazine.
    1. Mister X 28 March 2020 12: 09 New
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      Quote: Operator
      are connected on pins that have the property of falling out, after which the structure self-disintegrates.

      I have not seen such data.
      In the disassembled video, they were either squeezed out by a bullet or beat out with a tool.
      But exploitation in the shooting gallery is one thing, and quite different in real combat conditions.
      1. Operator 28 March 2020 13: 05 New
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        At least one case of the death of an American commando equipped with a Stoner 63 light machine gun was recorded - one of the pins after intensive (sic!) Combat operation dropped out of a weapon that spontaneously shot and killed a machine gunner. The developers replaced the direct pin with a screw one (which had to be turned out for a long time), but the design retained a lot of other pins, leading, if not to the gunshot, then at least to the failure of the weapon.
        1. Mister X 28 March 2020 13: 14 New
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          Quote: Operator
          At least one case of the death of an American commando was recorded,

          Yes, I read about this case.
          Agree: you can foolishly break a male organ ...
          1. Operator 28 March 2020 13: 18 New
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            The network has an epic video with a machine gunner, during which the control handle with the trigger falls off while lying down with the machine gun resting on the ground, and the machine gun continues to shoot itself - well, at least in the opposite direction laughing

            The fewer pins, the more reliable the weapon.
            1. Mister X 28 March 2020 13: 21 New
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              Quote: Operator
              The fewer pins, the more reliable the weapon.

              And the less moving, and also small parts - too.
              1. Operator 28 March 2020 13: 25 New
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                Generally parts - including large ones (such as modules).
                1. Mister X 28 March 2020 13: 37 New
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                  Quote: Operator
                  Generally parts - including large ones (such as modules).

                  Modularity is a highly controversial issue.
                  It seems that among the Germans I saw a modular armored personnel carrier in 6-8 different configurations.
                  From staff and engineering vehicles to ambulances.
                  1. Operator 28 March 2020 13: 59 New
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                    Modularity as part of factory production technology is a blessing, since it leads to lower production costs and easier operation.

                    But for the conditions of the army (not the police) use of small arms is evil, because it is useless (they gave the machine gun a full-time machine gun, an automatic machine gun and a sniper rifle, and that’s all) and it’s harmful (rearranging weapons in the field).

                    Change of trunks - a proven method in machine guns and simple in technical execution.
                    1. Mister X 28 March 2020 14: 24 New
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                      Quote: Operator
                      harmful (rearrange weapons in the field).

                      I read the opposite opinions, with their arguments.
                      It seems that some reasonable things lead, and others.
                      I’m not a military man, it’s not for me to use that weapon, and it’s not for me to judge this.
                      1. Operator 28 March 2020 15: 47 New
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                        Common sense is our everything laughing
                      2. Mister X 28 March 2020 15: 49 New
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                        Quote: Operator
                        Common sense is our all laughing

                        At least for some wink
  6. Mister X 28 March 2020 12: 10 New
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    Quote: Operator
    spent cartridges and tape links had the property of being reflected back into the receiver

    Here I doubt, but I will not argue.
    I used to operate on facts, but I did not find any.
    Perhaps it was necessary to search more carefully.
    1. Operator 28 March 2020 19: 54 New
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      Shooting cartridges and loose belt links were reflected into the ejection window of the Stoner 63 light machine gun cartridges (in fact, the only option for the combat use of modular weapons) with a square cartridge box (shifted to the left relative to the machine gun axis), the upper flat surface of which was on the flight path of the cartridges and links ( also thrown to the left by mistake of developers).

      The jamb was eliminated only by using a box of circular cross section of a smaller capacity.
  7. Mister X 28 March 2020 12: 10 New
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    Quote: Operator
    rave reviews of individual veterans are nothing but show-offs

    Every veteran is trying to remember something good.
    Yes, and would not have broadcast negative reviews.
    Do you agree?
    1. Operator 28 March 2020 12: 33 New
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      Objective evidence of the lack of knowledge and the fallacy (in terms of the mass of pins) of the Stoner 63 design is the categorical unwillingness of the US Army and the ILC to adopt at least one model from the line of this weapon (for example, a light machine gun that proved to be in close combat in the jungle).

      At that time, the M16 with a 20-round magazine was categorically not suitable for creating the required density of dagger fire at a typical 20-30 meter distance for the jungle, and the standard M60 machine gun firing with high-pulse cartridges was too heavy to carry around the jungle and had less wearable ammunition due to the increased weight of 7,62x51 rounds compared to 5,56x45 rounds (Stoner 63).

      Therefore, the linear units of the US Army and the ILC preferred to take in Soviet raids AK and PKK with store-fed from 30 to 75 intermediate rounds.
      1. Mister X 28 March 2020 13: 07 New
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        Quote: Operator
        is the categorical reluctance of the US Army and the ILC to adopt at least one model from the line of these weapons (for example, a light machine gun

        However, in SEAL - Stoner 63 Commando (Mk 23 Mod 0) was in service for a long time.
        True, there are no sufficient facts of its application.
        Perhaps because special forces, secrecy, and all that.
        1. Operator 28 March 2020 13: 13 New
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          We also have several thousand AN-94s in service, from time to time they are illuminated in parades and even during counter-terrorist operations.

          Although it has long been known that the AN-94 is self-disassembling after the first shot from an under-barrel grenade launcher and wedges are not childish because of the general flimsy design.
          1. Mister X 28 March 2020 13: 18 New
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            Quote: Operator
            AN-94 are in service, from time to time they light up in parades

            Yes, I see Nikonov’s machine no more often than SCS.
      2. Korax71 28 March 2020 16: 45 New
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        The seal current used trophy weapons when working for the DMZ or in the Mikong Delta. The rest went on raids with their weapons, do not mislead the readers. Of course, there is evidence of the use of the enemy’s army and ILC, as well as machetes, bows and tomahawks, but this is an exception, and not a rule at all. but to take the enemy’s weapons from the battlefield, this is what the Americans really loved, because upon arrival at the base they handed him in a weapon, and upon dismissal they could take him home as a souvenir.
  8. Mister X 28 March 2020 12: 11 New
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    Quote: Operator
    The first modification of the M16 with its golem 20-cartridge magazine.

    As a result, the powder in the cartridges was urgently replaced, and the store was borrowed from Stoner 63
    1. Operator 28 March 2020 12: 55 New
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      I talked only about the capacity of the first stores to the M16, which were focused on firing in self-loading, and not in automatic mode.

      Contamination of the gate group M16, which is part of the gas direct-drive engine, is a separate problem. Replacing the original gunpowder with a more gas-fueled composition only partially solved the problem - even now, when offensive, the shooters according to the instructions must obligatorily clean the M16 bolt group with ear sticks at the end of the day, and in case of stationary defense, give the machine gun for cleaning to company gunsmiths or immerse the bolt group in a container with kerosene.

      That is why the Army, the KMP and the MTR of the United States began to purchase M16 automatic weapons manufactured by FN and HK to replace the MXNUMX, equipped with a normal gas engine with a gas unit, piston and rod.
      1. Mister X 28 March 2020 13: 31 New
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        Quote: Operator
        purchase replacement M16 automatic weapons manufactured by FN and HK

        At the end of the article, I quoted the ancients: “Look for who benefits from this.”
        For a long time, the manufacturer M16 and M4 managed to lobby their products, despite ear sticks ...
        1. Operator 28 March 2020 13: 41 New
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          I look at the question from a purely engineering point of view - the developers of the Russian experimental sniper self-loading rifle MTs-566 used a conventional gas engine with a gas block, piston and rod, getting firing accuracy in 1 MOA with non-bulk cartridges, i.e. 1,5 times better than this indicator for M16 with a direct gas drive of the bolt group (under similar conditions).

          Then why all this hype about the M16 automation, which has no analogues (requiring daily cleaning with ear sticks - as long as they are available)? laughing
          1. Mister X 28 March 2020 14: 30 New
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            Quote: Operator
            M16 with direct gas drive of the bolt group

            Do you have any reliability data for the MAS-49/56 rifle?
            Chris Bishop claimed that the French managed to avoid the problems associated with soot and constant cleaning.
            1. Operator 28 March 2020 15: 46 New
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              Reliability data MAS-49/56 I do not have.

              But here it must be borne in mind that the direct gas drive MAS-49/56 differs from that of the M16:
              - the first powder gases push the piston mounted on the bolt frame and entering its front part directly into the gas outlet (without the use of a rod);
              - in the second case, powder gases penetrate into the internal volume of the shutter frame and push its end wall (in order to eliminate the overturning moment from the operation of the gas engine).

              The internal volume of the shutter frame is contaminated with solid combustion products of gunpowder much earlier than the receiver

              1. Mister X 28 March 2020 15: 53 New
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                Quote: Operator
                The internal volume of the shutter frame is contaminated with solid combustion products of gunpowder much earlier than the receiver

                Thank you hi
                1. voyaka uh 28 March 2020 23: 25 New
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                  Gunpowder in cartridges M-16 is very clean. There is no soot.
                  We threw the bolt parts into the trough with kerosene for half an hour. And all the dirt
                  was washed off. Neither clean nor lubricate.
            2. Korax71 28 March 2020 16: 35 New
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              In fact, nobody is cleaning with any ear sticks. There is no shortage of materials for routine maintenance work in the army of our partners. And the nonsense about the need to transfer weapons to the gunsmith for cleaning is generally a complete paragraph. The course of studying the device and the principle of operation allows the military man collect the flour from the spare parts box. MTBF due to contamination of the bolt group — 2k shots, maintenance of the exhaust pipe — flushing every 4k shots. In any situation, if the weapon was fired, it is mandatory and cleaning the barrel on the same day with the use of rhs, when exiting without firing, still clean, but with the use of neutral oils and grease. And these rules apply to both AK and civilian firearms. Yes, and in Vietnam there was a problem in reliability due to increased corroding of the elements of the bolt group due to contact with soot and high humidity, as well as in the low level of training of l / s, although the manufacturers also had to be very tough to ask, because they positioned their product as practically no weapons served Iya. In one hundred percent you are right, this episode has so spoiled the reputation of the M16 that so far the people rely precisely on this episode of its use.
              1. bunta 28 March 2020 17: 30 New
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                Quote: Korax71
                Allows the serviceman to assemble the MCU from the parts box

                this is actually normal. That's why it and spare parts, only the shutter cannot be changed. For it is life-threatening.
                1. Korax71 28 March 2020 18: 28 New
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                  I agree. Although the interchangeability of the bolt group is 100% from the factory. You should not change it with already used weapons. In principle, this is true for any type of co.
  9. Undecim 28 March 2020 17: 50 New
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    In addition, Stoner 63 was also an unfinished construction - the spent cartridges and tape links tended to bounce back into the receiver and tightly wedge the reloading mechanism, after which the weapon, according to the shooters, became a "big iron club" (the mechanism could only be fixed in the weapons workshop )
    This is a comment from the series “I heard a ringing, but could not establish the place from which they called.”
    Hit shells in the receiver with the design of weapons are not connected. A similar fact occurred only when using round magazines with 150 rounds of ammunition, when using which the tape was fed on the left. Since the cartridges were also thrown to the left, there were cases of ricochet from the store back to the ejection window. The links could not be reflected back - they are thrown to the right.
  • zyablik.olga 28 March 2020 13: 27 New
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    Hello hello I never cease to wonder how carefully you prepare the material. It reads like a good literary work!
    1. Mister X 28 March 2020 14: 04 New
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      Quote: zyablik.olga
      Hello hello

      Hello, Olenka!
      Quote: zyablik.olga
      I never cease to wonder how carefully you prepare the material.

      Affects my civilian profession.
      I try to publish only verified data, but misses happen repeat
      Quote: zyablik.olga
      It reads like a good literary work!

      love As a student, I wrote letters to girls for my classmates lol
      Now I'm trying to write on military topics.
      How well I do - judge the readers wink
      1. zyablik.olga 28 March 2020 14: 12 New
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        Quote: Mister X
        I try to publish only verified data, but misses happen

        Nobody is innocent request But it is respected when a person is able to admit his mistakes.
        Thank you for the flower! smile I’m alone at home with the beasts. Serezha went to the taiga river, for lenoks and graylings.
        Quote: Mister X
        How well I do - judge the readers

        Michael, you are doing very well! Write more!
        1. Mister X 28 March 2020 14: 56 New
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          Quote: zyablik.olga
          Thank you for the flower!

          Here are a few more !.
          Moldova is in quarantine for 2 weeks, an emergency has been declared, but spring is taking its toll!
          https://www.facebook.com/groups/kishinev/?multi_permalinks=2626286224283642&notif_id=1584708912984969&notif_t=feedback_reaction_generic
        2. Mister X 28 March 2020 14: 58 New
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          Quote: zyablik.olga
          Serezha went to the taiga river, for lenoks and graylings.

          Again only friends will give? wink
          1. Bongo 29 March 2020 02: 42 New
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            Quote: Mister X
            Again only friends will give?

            Hello! Caught a little, and I gave everything. I’ll throw off the pictures in the Agent. Olya learned about this pouting. And at the very in the freezer are two lenoks of 2 kg each.
            1. Mister X 29 March 2020 10: 13 New
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              Quote: Bongo
              Hi!

              Great!
              Quote: Bongo
              Olga found out about this pouting.

              Everything is in the house! Let them lie wink
              We can have a jar of sprat in the refrigerator for months. Then suddenly (closer to midnight) the wife declares:
              - I want sprats!
              And I bring sprats with a black bread to her bed ...
  • Catfish 28 March 2020 13: 54 New
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    Michael, thanks again for the article! hi That's what I like about your work, so it’s possible maximum information and a lot of interesting photos. And mistakes ... so whoever doesn’t have them. The main thing is that you are interested in reading. smile
    1. Mister X 28 March 2020 14: 48 New
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      Quote: Sea Cat
      Michael, thanks again for the article!

      You're welcome!
      Quote: Sea Cat
      I like your work, so this is the maximum possible information and a lot of interesting photos.

      I myself am interested in getting to the bottom of the matter.
    2. Mister X 28 March 2020 14: 49 New
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      Quote: Sea Cat
      And mistakes ... so whoever doesn’t have them. The main thing...

      The main thing is that there is no war.

      One of my specialties is quality control.
      The authority in this area said:
      It is impossible to identify absolutely all defects.
      It is important to find critical, because of which the system will not be able to work according to the ToR and specifications.

      In my opinion, his statement is also applicable in military affairs.
      For example, the headlights do not work for the BRT, or the paint falls off.
      But this is not critical: he can perform a combat mission.
      What do you think?
      1. Catfish 28 March 2020 15: 15 New
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        If there is a NVD, then the headlights are not critical, but here with driving you need some experience. As for the "paint falls off", it characterizes the attitude to l / s to the entrusted technique, today the paint has fallen off, and tomorrow the sloth. In the words of Rozhestvensky, “an elegant ship is inspected better than a hardened one,” though it did not help. You need to follow everything.
        1. Mister X 28 March 2020 15: 21 New
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          Quote: Sea Cat
          As Rozhdestvensky said

          It seems Valentin Pikul in the novel "Cruiser" did not respond very flattering.
          I could be wrong: I read it for a long time.
          1. Catfish 28 March 2020 15: 28 New
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            Yes, few adore flattering about this admiral, and it’s understandable why. But he managed to smuggle the squadron through half the world without losses, even destroyers. The organizer is good, but the naval commander is not. And Pikul often gave out wishful thinking. request
            1. Mister X 28 March 2020 15: 57 New
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              Quote: Sea Cat
              And Pikul often gave out wishful thinking. request

              Fiction - Pikul could afford.
              But the authors of historical films based on "real events" would not hurt the bowl to resort to archival documents and consultants.
              After all, today's youth know the history of modern adaptations ...
              1. Catfish 28 March 2020 20: 48 New
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                I can’t say anything about modern adaptations, I don’t look. Just the other day I revised "What do you call now ..?" Well, is anyone really capable of filming something like that now?
                1. Mister X 28 March 2020 20: 54 New
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                  Quote: Sea Cat
                  Well, is anyone really capable of filming something like that now?

                  It is better to reconsider "Shit and the Sword", "Officers", or "17 Moments of Spring" (necessarily b / w).
                  1. Catfish 28 March 2020 21: 33 New
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                    There is also a wonderful film "Nobody wanted to die," and also b / w.
                    1. Mister X 28 March 2020 21: 43 New
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                      Quote: Sea Cat
                      There is also a wonderful film "Nobody wanted to die," and also b / w.

                      Yes, they managed to make many films ...
                      And not just the military.
                      3 musketeers with Boyarsky (very close to the source, surrounding Boyarsky;))
                      Love and doves, Queen of gas stations, and many others.
                      There would be a desire, and access to an Internet.
  • Korax71 28 March 2020 16: 55 New
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    Michael hi Thanks for the interesting series of articles, I look forward to continuing good huge respect and respect for the material. soldier
    1. Mister X 28 March 2020 20: 53 New
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      Quote: Korax71
      thanks for the interesting series of articles

      Thank you!
      Quote: Korax71
      I look forward to continuing

      Already at the editor, in line for publication.
      1. Korax71 28 March 2020 22: 07 New
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        Thank you. New creative achievements to you drinks
  • About 2 30 March 2020 11: 34 New
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    We should also mention the Stoner AR 18 rifle, which is very good according to experts of gunsmiths. On the Stoner 63 machine gun, the similarity of the pistol grip is traced, as well as similar receiver parts stamped from sheet steel.
  • Zaits 31 March 2020 02: 26 New
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    Quote: Undecim
    The barrel “carabiner” cannot be installed on the machine gun, since it does not have a gas valve, so the machine gun will not work with tape power.
    In the photo on the barrel you can see the characteristic longitudinal grooves for cooling the barrel, which are not on the "carbine" version. This is the trunk of Commando


    Adjustable gas valve is designed to change the rate of fire. The barrel "carbine" can be installed on a machine gun, and it will most likely be fired. Only nobody needs such a configuration. The reason is very simple - the gas exhaust unit is combined with an aiming device. When assembling according to an inappropriate scheme, it will be down.

    But ultimately you are right. There can be no other short barrel besides Commando. And in diameter machine-gun barrels are noticeably thicker than a gas pipe, which is clearly visible even in poor quality photos.

    In general, this shifter system will at least confuse anyone. So, in the second picture, all four 63A are machine guns, three of them are a shortened version. And the author found a carbine there.
    At first, I myself got confused with the purpose of the fin on the slide frame. And also because of the turning of all this stuff.

    In general, the system is very interesting. And the series of articles was very successful. Even minor flaws do not spoil it, but only add intrigue. And a lot of comments, including yours, turned out to be quite out of place.

    So, thank you, and the author separately.