Ka-62: the road to heaven or the road to nowhere?

A start




Most important news for the Russian aircraft industry in the beginning of spring, we can assume that Arsenievskaya aviation Progress company named after N.I. Sazykina began the construction of Ka-62 helicopters, launching production of six pilot batch vehicles.

“The construction of an experimental batch of six Ka-62 helicopters has begun, two of which are planned to be transferred for intra-regional transportation. Their delivery is scheduled for 2021 ”,

- said Managing Director of Progress Yuri Denisenko.

We will not go into everything technically now innovations cars. Let's talk about something else. In theory, this news should cause undisguised enthusiasm for fans of Russian aviation: after all, this is a relatively new helicopter, which is not another variation on the theme of the “immortal” Mi-8 or something else that was previously mass-produced in the years of the USSR. However, almost every aviation enthusiast will immediately see the pitfalls. And there are too many of them to simply go into the sea without getting hurt, figuratively speaking.

Hard times metamorphoses



To begin with, it is worth saying that the Ka-62 is only a conditionally Russian development. The helicopter surprisingly reborn twice: at first it was the Ka-60 - a military multi-purpose machine, which they began to create in Kamov back in 1984. He became the first "Kamov" helicopter, made according to a single-rotor scheme with a four-bladed main rotor and an eleven-bladed steering. What happened next is easy to remember. Perestroika, publicity, the collapse of the USSR. The difficulties of the 90s, in which the new car was no longer found. The result - two built helicopters for the whole time, although the first flight of the Ka-60 completed in the distant 1998.


The Ka-62 is nothing more than a civilian version of the 60th. He first flew into the sky in 2016: the new version is distinguished by the widespread use of imported components. In general, import substitution is clearly not about the Ka-62, and the requirements of the civil aviation market are very different from the requirements of the military helicopter market: at least in terms of economy. If on the Ka-60 there were two domestic RD-600 turboshaft engines, then the Ka-62 received the French Ardiden 3G with plans in the future to replace it with something Russian. And this already makes the project more closely related to the MS-21 airliner, which they also threaten to equip PD-14.

Actually, this aspect has been paid attention to more than once. So, a teacher at the Zhukovsky Air Force Academy, Yevgeny Matveev, previously stated that the Ka-62 uses an unreasonably large number of foreign-made components to the detriment of domestic components.

However, here you need to stand up for the creators. As world practice (Boeing, Airbus, Embraer) shows, a successful aviation project should not be based on the principle of concern for domestic manufacturers, but on expediency. Roughly speaking, if Western engines are more economical, then you need to take them. And vice versa. You also need to understand that in the case of the Ka-62, it is impossible to switch to purely Russian components in principle.


Using foreign components is a perfectly normal practice, even for titans such as China or the United States. The same Chinese airliner Comac C919, the main hope of China's aircraft industry, was supplied with Western CFM International LEAP, and the American Boeing 787 Dreamliner can be equipped with British Rolls-Royce Trent.

In general, the main characteristics of the Ka-62 is quite in the spirit of its time. The maximum take-off weight of the machine is 6,5 tons. The car can carry up to fifteen passengers. The helicopter is capable of speeds up to 308 kilometers per hour and can fly to a distance of 770 kilometers.

A New Twist


It would seem that there is a project, and it is potentially in demand. There are even several built and even flying samples. But, apparently, someone thought that this would not be enough, and decided that the Ka-62 could ... again be made a military helicopter.

“We have the look of a Ka-62 military helicopter. But we have not yet begun the tests. The first task: just get a certificate for a civilian helicopter. We are simultaneously working on the military appearance of this helicopter, we are discussing with the Ministry of Defense, as a first approximation, their needs, the missions (helicopters) that are needed, ”

- said in 2018 the CEO of the Russian Helicopters holding Andrey Boginsky.

That is, at first the Ka-60 was transformed from a military helicopter into a civilian Ka-62, and now directly see the Ka-62 not only civilian, but also military. This is despite the fact that, as we said above, there can be almost nothing in common between the requirements of the civilian market and the Ministry of Defense, so in fact it may be easier to create a new helicopter.


Do not forget that the Russian army has already begun purchasing the Mi-38T transport and assault helicopter and will not refuse this aircraft, as far as one can judge. By the way, in February, the first serial civilian Mi-38 helicopter was handed over to the customer, but this is a slightly different topic for discussion.

Flying in a dream and in reality


One thing is obvious: without export supplies, the Ka-62 project does not make practical sense. In general, no developed country in the world will create helicopters "for themselves": it is too expensive and complicated.

Could the Ka-62 be in demand on the world market? Yes and no. As the Military-Industrial Courier wrote in 2013, they wanted to put the first Ka-62 in Brazil in 2015.

“We also plan to come here with a new product, that is, the Ka-62 helicopter. We signed the contract while it is soft. But in the near future we will sign a “firm” contract for the supply of the first batch of seven Ka-62 helicopters, ”

- declared then in "Helicopters of Russia".

Since then, there has been almost no information on the contract, just as there is no data on new agreements.

In general, the situation on the aviation market is almost impossible to predict, even if the inappropriate bravado characteristic of post-Soviet aircraft manufacturers is removed. Who, for example, could have suggested a couple of years ago that in January 2020, due to its mistakes with the 737 Max model (worth mentioning, very monstrous by modern standards), for the first time in almost 60 years, it will not receive a single order?

In the case of the Ka-62 (its hypothetical military version can also be attributed to it), the situation looks even more complicated, because the helicopter has yet to be brought to the market and “untwisted”. At the same time, he proved that he is better than the same European AgustaWestland AW139, which, unfortunately for the Ka-62, has already been built with a series of more than 700 cars and managed to win back a substantial part of the relatively narrow market.


The problem is also that in Europe and the USA they are actively working on fundamentally new and potentially revolutionary high-speed helicopters. What does the Airbus Racer project or the American FARA contest cost? That is, there is a risk of obsolescence of classic rotorcraft, although high-speed helicopters only have to prove that they are economically more profitable than their trusted counterparts.
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  1. Aerodrome 23 March 2020 05: 39 New
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    Serdyukov and problem-words are synonyms.
    1. Alexey RA 23 March 2020 10: 58 New
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      Quote: Aerodrome
      Serdyukov and problem-words are synonyms.

      And what does Serdyukov have to do with a helicopter, the development of which began in the mid-80s? Really it is he already 35 years slowed down the transition to the production of Ka-60/62? wink
    2. letinant 23 March 2020 11: 26 New
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      Quote: Aerodrome
      Serdyukov and problem-words are synonyms.

      And where does Serdyukov!
      I, and agree with the author and disagree. To begin with, I agree: the helicopter market of this class is filling up, there is one thing but (by the way, he forgot to mention S-76). Sit on ... straight? See how orders are distributed for cars. By zones of influence, you influence this country, your orders, no, figs you will wait from them. This agreement with the author of the article ended.
      The Chinese S-919 will not fly into the air for a long time. So far, for one reason, the United States has imposed an embargo on the supply of its engines of the required power to China, so the program has arisen. The Chinese will solve the issue of engines, find something else. "Fair competition"! However.
      According to MI-38T, this machine does not replace MI-17; it goes in addition or, more simply, to the niche between MI-17 and MI-26. MI-38 is more powerful and load-lifting MI-17. But what is presented below MI-17? Mi-2 or foreign cars. While we are saturating our domestic market, KA-60/62 (Ministry of Emergencies, medical services, police, military army helicopter, FSB, for MTR), others will look, maybe they will. And about engines, for the time being, you can put the RD-600 on military vehicles (it’s still more economical to drive than MI-17), put anything on commercial vehicles, even though the bicycle drive (like the customer’s left heel is combed), the same thing with the interior.
      1. fighter angel 23 March 2020 13: 01 New
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        Letinant
        "... But what do we have below MI-17? Mi-2 or foreign cars ..."

        But what about Ansat - ???
        And the same Ka-226 ???
        1. letinant 23 March 2020 13: 23 New
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          Quote: fighter angel
          Letinant
          "... But what do we have below MI-17? Mi-2 or foreign cars ..."

          But what about Ansat - ???
          And the same Ka-226 ???

          Ansat was created more like a training machine and in terms of design features, it is closer to MI-2. KA-226 agrees, but landing only from the rear wings, it is rather a light truck with a lower payload than KA-60/62, although .... I think a comparison is necessary in this situation.
          Here, I still remembered! Too light a helicopter, also not good, adverse weather conditions are much more affected. I talked with pilots of the flying club, they have MI-2 and the French Gazelle. So, in the rain and wind only MI-2 is lifted, the Gazelle does not fly in such weather. Not my words.
          1. fighter angel 23 March 2020 13: 49 New
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            By the way, where is the Mi-34 now?
            There was such a small helicopter, and it seems that it was even being built in a small series.
            Fly somewhere or not?
            Well, it’s necessary, the Gazelles also fly somewhere ...
            I thought, “Robinsons” damned all flying clubs captured ...
            1. letinant 23 March 2020 14: 03 New
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              Quote: fighter angel
              By the way, where is the Mi-34 now?
              There was such a small helicopter, and it seems that it was even being built in a small series.
              Fly somewhere or not?
              Well, it’s necessary, the Gazelles also fly somewhere ...
              I thought, “Robinsons” damned all flying clubs captured ...

              In Vladivostok, we have a Gazelle, MI-2, a couple of pieces, AS-350 Ecurey 2.

              Mi-34, this is an ultralight car, like the R-44. There are 4 people with the pilot.
            2. Grits 24 March 2020 08: 19 New
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              Quote: fighter angel
              By the way, where is the Mi-34 now?
              There was such a small helicopter, and it seems that it was even being built in a small series.

              About 5 years ago I was on an excursion at the Progress plant in Arseniev. Yes, yes, on the very one where the Ka-62s are now sculpted. So there, in the workshop, next to the Ka-52 Alligators under construction, several ready-made Mi-34s stood modestly at the wall.
        2. Kasym 23 March 2020 14: 20 New
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          Alexey, in my opinion, the problem of civil aircraft manufacturing in the Russian Federation (in particular helicopter industry) lies in the engines. Moreover, the Ukrainian Motor Sich was involved in the cooperation.
          For light helicopters, a suitable domestic engine is not yet visible. On the Ka-226 are Allison / Rolls Royce. At Ansat Prat & Whitney. hi
      2. Bad_gr 23 March 2020 19: 17 New
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        Quote: Aerodrome
        Serdyukov and problem-words are synonyms.

        Quote: letinant
        And what does Serdyukov have to do with a helicopter, the development of which began in the mid-80s?

        Quote: letinant
        And where does Serdyukov!
        Serdyukov, Anatoly Eduardovich:
        "-.................
        - On December 11, 2015, he joined the Board of Directors of Russian Helicopters Holding [89] (part of Rostec Group of Companies) [1] ................
        - In 2017, he was elected Chairman of the Board of Directors of PJSC Rostvertol [91] and a member of the Board of the United Aircraft Corporation.
        - On May 8, 2019, he was elected Chairman of the Board of Directors of PJSC United Aircraft Corporation ............. "
        1. Alexey RA 23 March 2020 19: 25 New
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          Quote: Bad_gr
          - On December 11, 2015, he joined the Board of Directors of Russian Helicopters Holding [89] (part of Rostec Group of Companies) [1] ................

          That is, Serdyukov came in 2015. And work on the Ka-60/62 has been going on since the mid-80s. And they don’t see the end-edge. Only in my memory that the Kamov machine was about to go into the army was reported three times.
          1. Bad_gr 23 March 2020 19: 30 New
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            Quote: Alexey RA
            That is, Serdyukov came in 2015.

            If he turns around to manage as at the time in the Army, then at the future of PJSC "United Aircraft Corporation" it will be possible to put an end to it.
            I think so.
  2. mark1 23 March 2020 05: 54 New
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    In this case, doing is much better than not doing.
    Do not forget that the Russian army has already begun purchasing the Mi-38T transport and assault helicopter and will not refuse this aircraft, as far as one can judge.

    Mi-38 and K-60 are still very different in class.
    1. bayard 23 March 2020 07: 04 New
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      Quote: mark1
      Mi-38 and K-60 are still very different in class.

      These are helicopters very different in class - one light heavy, the other medium / welter.
      To launch the Ka-62 series, you need to have a program for its use in Russia, with the widest possible implementation in the Ministry of Emergencies, the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the Russian Guard, the FSB, for operation by regional administrations, state corporations. Even according to the order for them - for the sake of seriality (in the good sense of the word) and a good example for potential customers from abroad.
      Another good question is which landing helicopters are planned to be used at the two UDCs that they plan to lay by May 9 of this year? At the moment, a good deck helicopter in production is not observed from the word at all. For the "Mistral" it was planned to use the Ka-60.
      For the army aviation and airborne forces (air assault brigades) such a helicopter would also be very desirable. As for the border troops.
      That is, with a competent approach, even for domestic consumption, the need for such a helicopter can (and should) be in the hundreds. And with a good start and feedback from the operators, foreign customers will go.
      1. donavi49 23 March 2020 09: 35 New
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        The main and key problem of the Ka-62 is time. A very long time. If even by 2015 certification and flight began. But after seeing the horizon for 20 years (and now 21-22), Rosneft ordered Augusta. Other companies have looked and done too. Sponsored a screwdriver (Rosneft has 30% screwdriver production).





        Major customers contracted in general. Ordinary will not pull such a helicopter, and why? As a result, to bring to the market at the expense of the budget only, but in the current economic situation, and there is an ambush.
        1. bayard 23 March 2020 09: 54 New
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          Yeah, over time (deadlines) quite a misfortune happened. I already decided that I completely abandoned it - it didn’t have its own engines, but import sanctions. Therefore, now it is valid - only budget purchases. But even the positions I listed above (including the military version) are quite enough to start the series. And from foreigners - Iran. He is under sanctions. And our planes (S.S. Dzhet, MS-21) are waiting - pre-order for several hundred, so helicopters may be of interest. And he needs a lot of such equipment.
          Speaking of budget. If the monetary policy changes (which is quite possible right after voting and approval of amendments to the Constitution), with our monetization at 40% of the norm for all other countries, within a few years with reaching the standard norm, the economy can be poured into 2 - 2,5 times more money (100 - 150% of the existing money supply) ... These projects, for budget purchases, expansion of production and lending to the economy, they will go ... In that case, there will be enough money. And not only for a few hundred helicopters - enough for a lot.
          1. 3danimal 25 March 2020 09: 02 New
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            How is this enough to buy imports?
            Or offer to buy for rubles?
            How to purchase double the number of MRI devices by money issue (purchased for currency)? And many other products? Either the dollar (and other currencies) rate will skyrocket, or ... there will be a deficit.
            1. bayard 25 March 2020 20: 58 New
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              There will be no shortage, as there will be no problems with the purchase of unsubstituted (!) Imports. But the ruble money supply from the issue should go to public procurement of a DOMESTIC product. Including Ka-62 helicopters smile - for the Navy, the Ministry of Internal Affairs, the Ministry of Emergencies, border troops, state corporations, regional and regional administrations ... As well as the resumption of production and procurement of PLO and AWACS helicopters (Ka-27, Ka-31, and maybe Ka-29).
              For the purchase of combat fighter aircraft for MARINE aviation, as well as patrol aircraft and PLO and AWACS aircraft, as well as air reconnaissance aircraft. On the creation and development of coastal, airfield and rear infrastructure ...
              Many good things can be spent when they are.
              IN RUBLES.
              FOR PURCHASES AND ORDERS ONLY AT DOMESTIC MANUFACTURERS AND CONTRACTORS - tax residents of the Russian Federation.
              This cake is for its own.
              Since the Budget Rule will be canceled (for sure), with a surplus in foreign trade, the ruble will not only not fall, but may also strengthen over time. Selling grain at 15 - 20 billion dollars. ... 100, 200 and even 500 million dollars. you can always allocate for the purchase of MRI devices. smile
              These are budget purchases, basically? wink
              And today, the President and the guarantor of the upcoming - updated Constitution has toughened the procedure (for now! Increasing the tax) on the withdrawn capital, and if you cannot reach an agreement with your former partners (95% probability that it will not work out), then Russia will EXIT these agreements.
              What does it mean ?
              And this means that it will be very, VERY difficult to withdraw capital abroad. And this already means that the currency will remain in the Russian Federation, change into RUBLES, the domestic demand for the currency will decrease significantly smile And what do we get as a result? smile
              After all, as I understand it, you are savvy in the laws of a market economy wink
              Correctly . yes
              The ruble will strengthen.
              But you shouldn’t be too zealous with this.
              Better to tighten salaries.
              And the export advantages of the products of the Russian Federation should be preserved.
              1. 3danimal 26 March 2020 04: 06 New
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                All recent changes in the design (already adopted, by the way) have the main goal - to enable one person to remain in power for life, the rest is more to cover.
                Once again: there is a critical dependence on imports. 2/3 cars - foreign manufacturers. Computers - more than 90%. (And there is no way to increase production ourselves in order to saturate the market with high-quality analogues at appropriate prices). Sowing quality grain - import, pedigree cattle - import. Private traders are buying.
                Have to lower the ruble yet?
                To build military equipment in large quantities - you need to have production capacities for this. There are more workers who need to pay a salary, and in stores there are many imported items, the value of which will increase with increased emissions.
                What the president says and says all the terms of his rule is necessary: ​​noticeably reduce the share of oil and gas in exports (self-isolation and “complete” import substitution - a fiction in the 21st century). I am sure that conversations will continue in the time remaining for him.
                1. bayard 26 March 2020 13: 37 New
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                  Quote: 3danimal
                  All recent changes in the design (already adopted, by the way) have a main goal - to enable one person to remain in power for life.

                  This thesis is used as a cover (for liberals). But the essence of the reform is completely different. In what I told you before. It is for this that this reform is conceived.
                  Long time ago.
                  They went to this and needed conditions.
                  Now is the time.
                  Quote: 3danimal
                  there is a critical dependence on imports. 2/3 cars - foreign manufacturers. Computers - over 90%

                  Of these 2 \ 3, at least half of the domestic - Russian assembly. Yes, from imported components, but they are mainly collected at our factories.
                  And nothing critical is observed from the word ABSOLUTELY.
                  Because the balance of foreign trade in Russia is POSITIVE.
                  See what that means?
                  Russia is buying significantly less than it is selling.
                  Or maybe MUCH less.
                  Ruble collapsed amid stock market panic.
                  Who?
                  The one who earns on this is stock speculators. Those who invested in the dollar ahead of time won in rubles.
                  90% of computers?
                  We will buy them for the yuan.
                  These are not critical products.
                  Especially in a crisis.
                  World crisis.
                  In the United States they buy cartridges ... and toilet paper.
                  Quote: 3danimal
                  Sowing quality grain - import, pedigree cattle - import. Private traders are buying.

                  And who will stop them from doing this?
                  Do you think that we need our own seed farms and pedigree farms?
                  I agree .
                  I think it will be so. Tasks have already been announced.
                  Quote: 3danimal
                  Have to lower the ruble yet?

                  Not at all .
                  He already sank unreasonably low. And new measures - a tax on the withdrawal of capital, will only help strengthen the dollar.
                  How much is withdrawn from Russia per year?
                  100 billion dollars ?
                  15% of them will remain in the country in the form of TAX. This is 15 billion dollars. - so much Russia earns on arms exports per year.
                  And also such a measure will become an incentive not to withdraw money abroad, but to invest it at home - it’s good there, the interest on deposits in Russia is higher than in the West. And there are enough investment projects.
                  So why would the ruble still get cheaper? smile
                  He had already fallen below reason in a wave of panic.
                  Only up .
                  And the increase in salaries and job creation will further stimulate trade, and industry along the chain. It is much more convenient for trade to make money on turnover than on excessive margins.
                  The ruble is stabilizing and after the reforms will be very strong and in demand.
                  The crooks of the Fed, the IMF and the Central Bank will no longer be able to influence the state exchange rate policy - when control over the financial system passes entirely into the hands of the government from the hands of overseas private traders.
                  In the US, they begin to stupidly distribute money to the population in order to stimulate demand.
                  And they reset the Fed discount rate.
                  And in Europe, something similar (with a bet).
                  And they have recently imitated a few more trillions of dollars and euros.
                  Why doesn’t the course fall?
                  Huh?
                  But because what you were prescribed in their "bible for suckers" - "Economics" - is a lie.
                  Big and sincere deception.
                  Study political economy on normal textbooks and stupid questions, doubts and desires will disappear by themselves.
                  1. 3danimal 27 March 2020 06: 02 New
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                    Political economy in Soviet textbooks? Countries in which there was an ineffective teamwork (the only true good ) model?
                    "Big deception" - I would like specifics. Now there are a lot of “conceptuals” of conspirologists publishing books with “justifications” of their truly true economic theories.
                    Raise salaries due to emissions - people will buy more, in particular, imported goods. Which either rise in price, or their deficit appears.
                    Zeroing (strong reduction) of the rate would be very useful to us.
                    You wanted to say "emitted"?
                    This thesis is used as a cover (for liberals).
                    So this “popular initiative” of a life-long deputy (who managed to sing toasts to the still dear and beloved Leonid Ilyich) was only as a cover? laughing And I already thought that someone really loves power and wants to possess it for life. After all, people ask, friends, relatives.
                    As I got older I lost my naivety, where can I learn again? wink
                    1. bayard 27 March 2020 08: 45 New
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                      Quote: 3danimal
                      Political economy in Soviet textbooks? Countries in which there was an ineffective team (only true) model?

                      And what did the Soviet textbooks not please you?
                      Do you think that the USSR was poorly taught?
                      Do you think that in the 1930s and 1950s the economy of the USSR was ineffective?
                      But the whole world envied us - with such a pace of development.
                      Or in the 1960s and 1970s (until the middle) was the USSR economy somewhat defective? Our economy was not only for itself, but also for another third of the World (they raised the economies of the former European colonies).
                      Exactly - enough.
                      And the distortions and deficit of a number of consumer goods and their insufficient assortment are due to the rejection of the STALIN economic model - a combination of state and collective \ cooperative \ private (personal) ownership of the means of production. Under I.V. Stalin, it was private owners and cooperatives that created 18% of the country's GDP. They produced furniture, radio equipment (televisions, receivers), and a wide range of light industry ... We even had design bureaus of cooperative ownership - this is how the world famous Design Bureau Mil and Kamov began. Therefore, they felt the market, and supported the range, and quality ... and quantity.
                      Under Trotskyist Khrushchev (a genuine valantarist), all this positive experience was rejected and a total-state command system in the economy was introduced.
                      Brezhnev did not dare to return everything to normal (Kosygin's program), especially after the events in Czechoslovakia.
                      And from the mid-70s ... everything was already going to the drain of the USSR - the elites agreed. And they just waited for generations to change and crisis conditions to mature (man-made, of course).
                      Quote: 3danimal
                      Now there are a lot of “conceptuals” of conspirologists publishing books with “justifications” of their truly true economic theories.

                      There are all sorts of things, but Economics has been sour for a long time.
                      Do not find?
                      I, just taking it in my hands in the summer of 1992 and looking through it, almost laughed about the floor with a laugh — enchanting cynical nonsense. Allowance for suckers.
                      You don’t think that I didn’t exalt the "holy" rank, I knew the price of my opinion already. And just in this area.
                      Just a day after flipping through this "Economy" I proposed a program that saved the young capitalist Russia from collapse and subsequent bankruptcy of the entire oil industry ... And although it came under the authorship of another (but very respected by me) person, it was rightly considered ( I hope to this day) brilliant. Gazprom then licked it for its needs in a pirated way ...
                      I knew Khodorkovsky and Mevzlin ... since 1991, when Mikhail headed the NTTM Center at the Komsomol Central Committee on Sretenka ... and at a meeting when deciding to create an Economic Society named after Sharapova was present ... and voted ...
                      Quote: 3danimal
                      Raise salaries due to emissions - people will buy more, in particular, imported goods. Which either rise in price, or their deficit appears.

                      In no case ! Emission heating of the economy should be carried out exclusively through investment emission - in the production of a marketable product. You can, by the way, in the military-industrial complex. To illustrate my theory, I gave an example of emission heating and acceleration of the Russian economy through the program (I chose the most paradoxical) for building a powerful aircraft carrier ocean fleet ... belay - such a reaction to this was the first. But for that, and the paradox is that the program is presented most vividly.
                      ... And then it turned out that the theory of the nature of "absolute money" was developed and proposed to Alexander-3 by the still memorable Russian genius - Sharapov.
                      I was pleased that we both came to this ... though he did it almost 100 years earlier than me ... but I didn’t know and was not familiar with his work ... And based on his theory, a paper dollar was created in the USA and the Fed was established ... of course they perverted the theory, but they used the main principles.
                      But while the Central Bank of the Russian Federation exists (a foreign joint-stock company under the Russian brand), the Russian Federation cannot have its monetary policy.
                      Alas.
                      Putin attempted to change his position in 2005, when he paid off almost all of Russia's external debts and even RI’s debts ... but they didn’t allow him - they killed two of his friends and presented an ultimatum ... Putin retreated.
                      And here is a new approach.
                      It will turn out this time - I don’t know, but still I hope.
                      And this is a necessary measure. If Russia were allowed to develop in the same mode as before 2014, it would be possible to agree ... But they themselves violated all the agreements ... And now it is time for Russia to denounce these agreements.
                      hi
      2. venik 23 March 2020 10: 04 New
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        Quote: bayard
        These are helicopters very different in class - one light heavy, the other medium / welter.

        =======
        For the first time I hear such a classification: "light heavy", "medium / welterweight" ..... request There are no such concepts!
        Actually, according to the classification of the Russian Helicopters holding: Ka-62 - average multi-purpose helicopter, and Mi-38 - helicopter heavy class! (https://www.russianhelicopters.aero/catalog?type=civi)
        --------
        "For the "Mistral" it was planned to use the Ka-60"
        =======
        What nonsense is this? For the "Mistral" it was planned to use the Ka-27 / Ka-29 and Ka-52 !!! There, even hangars in the project had to be increased in height (they did not fit in coaxial). Now - get in Ka-52 use.
        1. bayard 23 March 2020 10: 13 New
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          Quote: venik
          For the first time I hear such a classification

          Sorry, did not quote. The fact is that the Mi-8, although it is considered to be an average helicopter in our country, but according to the classification of some states it falls under the concept of “heavy”. What can we say about the Mi-38.
          The Mi-8 already held an intermediate position between the medium and heavy helicopter.
          At the same time, the Ka-62, according to foreign classification, is a classically medium helicopter, but according to Soviet-Russian concepts ... it seems to be medium, but closer to light. It happened so, because for us the average was the “eternal” Mi-8, and next to it, the Ka-62, whatever one may say, is lightweight (two times lighter, and the payload is half as much).
          Therefore, he used such expressions. After all, after comparing with the Mi-8, putting the Mi-38 and Ka-62 on the same niche board ... is not serious - the difference is even more striking.
          1. venik 23 March 2020 10: 20 New
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            Quote: bayard
            The fact is that the Mi-8, although it is considered to be an average helicopter in our country, but according to the classification of some states, it falls under the concept of “heavy”. What can we say about the Mi-38.

            ======
            And who told you that in our country it is considered "average" ??? I already gave a link to "Russian Helicopters" (https://www.russianhelicopters.aero/catalog?type=civil). Everything is clear there: Mi-8, Ka 27, Mi-38 - HEAVY class cars, and Ka-62 - AVERAGE! By the way, it turns out that today it is the ONLY domestic middle class helicopter! And after all this, someone else argues, "do we need them?" (I do not mean this to you!). We will not produce it ourselves - we will be buying "over the hill"! Do we need it?
            PS And attributing the Mi-8 to the "middle" class - so it was only during the Union when we had light turntables (Mi-1, Mi-2, Ka-26), Mi-6Mi-10 and Mi-26 (which were considered "heavy", although in fact they belonged to the "superheavy" class) and the "immortal" Mi-8, which, due to a misunderstanding and the absence of other "intermediate" machines, was considered "average". Today, our classification is international (and for a long time!). Well, let's stick to it in order to avoid misunderstandings! drinks
            1. bayard 23 March 2020 10: 39 New
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              Quote: venik
              Today, our classification is international (and for a long time!)

              That is exactly what I had in mind - in the USSR the classification was different. Mi-8 was made to replace the Mi-4, which was average, but it turned out better than expected, the more it began to progress over time - the thrust of engines from 1500 kg / s grew to 2200 kg / s and even higher in later versions , but in the absence of another average, the Mi-8 was considered average.
              Well, now everything is like everyone else drinks
              1. venik 23 March 2020 13: 01 New
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                Quote: bayard
                Mi-8 was made to replace the Mi-4, which was average

                ======
                Sorry, for some reason I have an answer "did not crawl" .... I have to do a "replay".
                As Nietzsche said: "Everything is known by comparison." I wanted to remember the Mi-4, but I didn’t: the whole thing is that at the beginning of the 50s (and 4 took off in 1952), the Mi-4, with a maximum take-off weight of 7.6 tons and a carrying capacity of 1.6 tons, was nothing not "average", but very "heavy"by helicopter! Moreover one of the heaviest in the world! A similar class of cars at that time were perhaps the Americans! But at the time of the present - quite a "middle" class device .... O tempora, o mores!
                And therefore: I propose to adopt a modern classification, in order to avoid misunderstandings, misunderstandings and any other confusion! drinks
                PS Somewhere I came across a classification of turntables by classes depending on take-off weight and carrying capacity, but I just can’t find it ... I’ll find it - I'll post it! hi
          2. Nemchinov Vl 24 March 2020 17: 44 New
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            It is interesting, on the basis of which machines, today, the Helicopters of Russia holding, could quickly offer the Navy modern (in terms of functionality) analogs of the KA-27 PL and KA-31 ?!
            1. bayard 24 March 2020 21: 51 New
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              Greetings, Vladimir. Yes, perhaps nothing better than to resume production of these same machines in an updated look. All warships that are now being built from a corvette and higher must have regular helicopters, and the laying of new aircraft-carrying landing ships (UDC, BDK) will require even more. So it’s necessary to renew. If you renew the Ka-31, then perhaps it is worth recalling its base - Ka-29, flying BMP of the Marine Corps. After all, he did not have a landing squad.
              But about this - which helicopters are going to base on the UDC and which helicopters are going to be deployed on new ships of the Navy, alas, there is absolutely no information. Even the intention to build the Ka-60 for the new UDC has not yet been heard. But it's time to take care of this (everything) seriously. In the next 10 years, the fleet will have many new ships that need helicopters. And preferably new helicopters. Therefore, it is necessary to resume the construction of the Ka-27, Ka-31 and possibly Ka-29 in an updated form or their analogs now. As well as training pilots, technical staff and ground / coastal infrastructure for them.
              Prior to the start of the construction of new aircraft-carrying ships (UDC, BDK) and the start of the normal serial construction of coofs and frigates (resumption of construction of 22350, plans for the further construction of 20380 for Pacific Fleet and Black Sea Fleet, 22350M) it was planned to resume production of new helicopters PLO, AWACS and for landing, it was probably too early (it turned out to be too many underwater stones), but now it's time.
              I hope the Kumertau plant is still capable of this.
    2. venik 23 March 2020 09: 55 New
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      Quote: mark1
      Mi-38 and K-60 are still very different in class.

      =======
      Yesess! Ka-62 - car Secondary class, and Mi-38 - already heavy!
  3. rocket757 23 March 2020 06: 54 New
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    It happens in different ways. Maybe so, the model becomes obsolete, even before the start of mass production.
    It’s necessary ... in principle, they themselves know how to and what to do.
  4. Zaurbek 23 March 2020 07: 23 New
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    It is important to first determine the size of the transport helicopter for the army, the Mi8 is too big, the Mi-38 is even larger. Western cars are smaller than Mi8 ... Where is Ka62's place here? How many MI-8 will be produced? How will he compete with the Mi38? It is necessary to build a line of helicopters without internal competition. And it’s easier with the civilian segment ... There are market leaders, if the Ka62 falls into the standard size of the most demanded segment, it is necessary to do it (albeit with Western components), as is done with the SSZh 100 and MS-21. Establish an issue, and then decide whether a domestic theater is needed for it.
  5. Amateur 23 March 2020 07: 41 New
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    Another wunderwafle with an imported engine. Does the "strange" fate of the Superjet teach nothing? What fool will create a competitor? If the helicopter turned out, they torture him with sanctions.
    1. Zaurbek 24 March 2020 11: 55 New
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      Any modern aircraft of such a plan (except for drums) must initially be made for two similar turbojet engines. The SSJ generally made a horse move - created a unique turbojet engine of 50% of the Russian Federation and 50% of France ....
  6. seregarodionov 23 March 2020 07: 58 New
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    "In general, no developed country in the world will create helicopters" for themselves ": it is too expensive and complicated." but for someone cheap and easy?
    1. Titus 23 March 2020 11: 08 New
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      So with others to measure ... not a single country and territories have such.
  7. Aviator_ 23 March 2020 08: 27 New
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    “We have the look of a Ka-62 military helicopter. But we have not yet begun the tests. The first task: just get a certificate for a civilian helicopter. We are simultaneously working on the military appearance of this helicopter, we are discussing with the Ministry of Defense, as a first approximation, their needs, the missions (helicopters) that are needed, ”

    - said in 2018 the CEO of the Russian Helicopters holding Andrey Boginsky.

    In a normal state, after such a statement, Boginsky would go to Siberia to clean up the snow.
    1. Aviator_ 23 March 2020 18: 42 New
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      Interestingly, Boginsky personally puts cons here, or did he hire someone?
  8. Victor Tsenin 23 March 2020 08: 29 New
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    The use of foreign components is a perfectly normal practice. This, of course, is the correct thesis, but only if there is a peace war in the world and, against you, there is no sanction war. An example of a Superjet with its engines is always in touch.
    1. Pavel57 23 March 2020 15: 49 New
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      Yes, no one spoke about sanctions in perestroika.
  9. military_cat 23 March 2020 09: 24 New
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    However, here you need to stand up for the creators. As world practice (Boeing, Airbus, Embraer) shows, a successful air project should not be based on the principle of caring for domestic manufacturers, but on expediency.
    Using foreign components is a perfectly normal practice, even for titans such as China or the United States.
    The problem is that it is impossible to focus entirely on expediency if, with the other hand, at this time to build a geopolitical confrontation and multipolarity. Otherwise, the infamous composite wing from the MS-21 is obtained. Boeing, Airbus and Embraer can expect that they will somehow receive high-quality composites from Japan. But the KLA - no longer.
  10. Pavel57 23 March 2020 15: 48 New
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    Kamov taught Italians how to make helicopters in a given dimension, but he didn’t do it on time.
  11. Diverter 23 March 2020 21: 19 New
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    In the modern world, it is better to start such projects with someone for a couple and for an adult. If you started it yourself, then you need to silently and quickly do it. And so .... I think this device has no civil future. Hi sanctions / unfair competition. Due to the fact that everything is already taken everywhere.
    Military version? Mi 26 - Mi 8/17 - Ka 226. Another Mi 38 shoved. Okay, like the rules turned out. For small problem, but not very burning. Over time, it will be decided.
  12. notingem 30 March 2020 13: 25 New
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    You can minus. The project is a failure and unprofitable due to the unnecessary use of these piece machines in the foreign market
  13. grumbler April 6 2020 17: 00 New
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    Apparently, Russia needs "sea" helicopters to provide economic and military activity in the Arctic region (shelf, drilling platforms, SevMorPut) on the Pacific coast, in the Baltic. It is necessary to provide civilian ships (icebreakers, rescuers) with transport, medical, fire and rescue helicopters. And the military: almost all promising ships have landing sites for patrol, search helicopters), for servicing coastal / island bases, border guards. As I understand it, Kamov has a great experience in creating "marine" helicopters.
    I wonder if this machine is suitable for these purposes? Or is it an attempt to play on the field of "land" cars Milevtsev.