Me-262 and the perspective of the Third Reich fighter jets

Introduction

At VO, a discussion arose between Oleg Kaptsov and Roman Skomorokhov around the Me-262 fighter:

https://topwar.ru/160645-reaktivnyj-istrebitel-me262-pozor-i-degradacija-ljuftvaffe.html
https://topwar.ru/160894-o-vodoizmeschenii-istrebitelja-me-262.html
https://topwar.ru/161022-me262-luchshee-oruzhie-u-pobeditelej.html

The respected authors were joined by no less respected Ilya Legat:

https://topwar.ru/161022-me262-luchshee-oruzhie-u-pobeditelej.html

Basically the discussion came down to the following questions:

1. Was ME-262 a breakthrough or a dead end?
2. Was the Me-262 competitive with the reactive first-borns of other warring powers?
3. How to evaluate the combat effectiveness of the Me-262?

We leave to the authors' conscience the legitimacy and quality of their arguments and facts. Anyone who wishes to easily find the Me-262 on the basis of the test results by specialists from the USA, England or the USSR can easily find it on the net directly, and at the same time make their own opinion on the above issues.

Trophy Report Translation

It’s interesting for me personally how the Germans themselves evaluated Schwalbe, what they expected from her and what prospects they saw for her. In this aspect, one document that recently caught my eye was unexpectedly interesting. This is a translation of the trophy report on the meeting comparing He-11TL fighter jet projects (as translated):

Unfortunately, the translation does not have accurate data on the date of the meeting, venue and composition of participants, but from the context it can be understood that this is the beginning of the 1945 year, and the participants were of a rather high degree of competence, based on the level and detail of the problems discussed.

The meeting considered the projects of the following aircraft (as translated):

1. Firms "Junkers".

2. Firms Blom and Foss (212).

3. Firms Blom and Foss (209). (Suspended from discussion at the request of the firm.)

4. Fokke-Wulf firms (I).

5. Fokke-Wulf firms (II).

6. Firms Messerschmitt (I).

7. Firms Messerschmitt (II). (The company has not decided on the project, the question is being decided on the choice of the scheme.)

8. Heinkel firms (Xe-162). (Further development was suspended, the company introduced a new tailless project that cannot be evaluated.)

As noted in the report, all projects have undergone changes since the previous meeting (which means that meetings on these projects were regular. - Approx. Auth.). The results of the changes are given in the tables, which I have summarized in one:

The estimated maximum speeds in the report are indicated by the general for all aircraft within 960-990 ± 40 km / h.

The report contains a company code for only one project. The Messerschmitt project (II) is indicated as P 1110, which allows you to identify the engine for which the projects were developed. This is Heinkel HES 011, or Heinkel - Hirth 109-011, information about which is quite a lot on the network:

The engine and the project comments mentioned in the report make it possible to identify the brand names of some other projects with a sufficient degree of probability:

1. Junkers Firms - Junkers EF 128.

2. Firms "Blom and Voss" (212) - Blohm & Voss P 212.

3. Firms Blom and Foss (209). (Suspended from discussion at the request of the firm.)

4. Focke-Wulf Firms (I) - Focke-Wulf Ta 183.

5. Fokke-Wulf (II) firms -?

6. Firms Messerschmitt (I) -?

I will speak about comments on these projects later. As for the general problems mentioned in the report, the following can be said.

The sweep used to achieve high speeds entails problems with stalling and worsening of the ailerons, including due to the draining of the flow to the ends of the wing, there is no solution at the time of the meeting, difficulties are foreseen during the implementation of projects and the need for large experimental work in wind tunnels and on location.

The necessity of increasing the stiffness of the swept wing to ensure the effectiveness of ailerons at high speeds is noted (the effect of reverse ailerons was already familiar to those who were attending. - Approx. Auth.).

The necessity of using a course machine to ensure stability when firing on airplanes with swept wings is discussed.

It is noted that at the speeds at which wave drag occurs, the area of ​​the swept wing weakly affects the overall resistance of the aircraft, therefore, it is necessary to proceed from providing landing characteristics and the possibility of increasing the mass of aircraft with further modernization, choosing the load on the wing.

A narrow possible range of centerings for the tailless scheme is noted, which limits the possibilities for further modernization.

Due to high speeds, questions arise regarding weathervane stability, which will be affected by the achievable rigidity of the fuselage, and problems are foreseen in this area.

Now we turn to the issues discussed on specific projects.

Junkers EF 128

Concerning this project, it was noted that at high flight speeds, early occurrence of shock waves at the air intakes is possible, therefore, their location is unsuccessful, plumage can reduce the sweep effect, and draining the flow from the wing will reduce the effectiveness of the rudder. Low location weapons makes it difficult to conduct continuous aimed fire. The large length of the connected tanks can significantly disrupt the longitudinal static stability.

Blohm & Voss P 212

Due to the large masses at the end of the wing, the latter is supposed to be unsafe for flutter. This project, as noted, especially refers to general comments on wing stiffness.

Focke-Wulf Ta 183

A premature wave crisis will occur in the root sections of the horizontal tail, and the elastic characteristics of the tail should be given special attention in connection with issues of stability and controllability. The longitudinal stability of the fuselage gives rise to questions of longitudinal stability. The tail unit is dangerous when forced to leave the aircraft. The following positive qualities of the project were noted: low wing load compared to other projects and a good view of the pilot.

Messerschmitt (I)

The main questions for the project concerned the V-plumage, the wave crisis on it, transverse moments and issues of stability. Marked as poor qualities: poor visibility, high wing loading and insufficient longitudinal stability. The project required, according to the consultants, large additional experimental studies on V-plumage.

What conclusions regarding the Me-262 and its assessment by the Germans themselves can be drawn from this report, which would seem to be unrelated to Schwalbe?

Conclusions

1. In Germany, intensive work was underway on jet fighters, apparently realizing that the modernization potential of the Me-262 was low.

2. Me-262 allowed the Germans to get acquainted in practice with all the charms of the wave crisis, which they were very worried about, ways to solve problems were sought, since Me-262 provided a rich experimental base, but these paths have not yet been definitively determined.

3. The Germans understood that making two single-engine fighters was more profitable than one twin-engine fighter.

4. Promising projects were developed not under YuMO-004 or BMW-003, but under the engine with 1500-2000 kgs thrust. But YuMO and BMW gave invaluable experience in production and operation.

5. Me-262 was the basis that allowed the Germans to meaningfully move forward in the development of an effective fighter jet. Another question is that neither time nor resources story did not leave them.

In general, the Germans themselves realized that the Me-262 is a test of the pen, not all decisions made in it are optimal, the life cycle of this aircraft will be short-lived. Therefore, such meetings were held and reports were written on their results.

The above illustrations of the appearance of the projects, possibly not at 100%, correspond to the true content of the projects at that time. But they give a general idea of ​​the essence of the issues raised.

Comments

[polpot]

Thanks, interesting.

[Mooh]

Indeed, a very sensible article without ritual dances of howls and tambourines. It is a pity that the topic chosen is rather narrow. For me personally, the mass production of the sky-ready Me-262 is not entirely clear. Was it the hysterical throwing of the Reich in agony or was it still a reasonable decision to implement which did not have enough time?

[Earthshaker]

Perhaps they tried to catch up, for mass production 262 everything was ready in 1943, and began production in 1944.

[Fitter65]

Quote: MooH

not fully understood the mass production of the sky-ready Me-262. It was hysterical throwing of the Reich in agony or still a reasonable decision for the implementation of which did not have enough time

Approximately the production of the T-34, which still managed to bring to mind.

[Vlad.by]

Briefly and on business.
A good selection of sketches of promising models.
The line of development of future models around the world is traced.
And the conclusion, in my opinion, is absolutely correct - Swallow was a breakdown of the pen, an experimental aircraft, which was forced to become a combat aircraft.

[lucul]

It is noted that at the speeds at which wave drag occurs, the area of ​​the swept wing weakly affects the overall resistance of the aircraft, therefore, it is necessary to proceed from providing landing characteristics and the possibility of increasing the mass of aircraft with further modernization, choosing the load on the wing.

Vootoot, they did make the main conclusion - for jet aircraft, the choice of wing area is needed, first of all, precisely for landing characteristics, and not for maneuverability.

[svp67]

Normal research activity. The Germans, in their works, tried to embody what they had already gained and how they saw the development of this direction.
You can recall that the Me-262 was not alone, that he had to fight "for a place in the sun" with the Henkel aircraft, He-280

[rocket757]

Very interesting!
Needless to say, the "twilight German genius" showed himself in the creation of murder weapons in full!
Their efforts would be directed at creation !!! We'd already fly to Mars and back! And then their genius would be "bright"!

[Den717]

Quote: rocket757

Needless to say, the "twilight German genius" showed himself in the creation of murder weapons in full!

Unfortunately, we have to admit that war motivates and generates progressive technical solutions to the greatest extent. Then these decisions, though not all, go into the field of civilian production. For the sake of objectivity, it should be noted that the "twilight" (more correctly - gloomy) genius "is present in all developed countries, including the USSR, and now Russia. The military-industrial complex of any country is the industry of greatest progress.

Quote: rocket757

Their efforts would be directed at creation !!! We'd already fly to Mars and back! And then their genius would be "bright"!

It is naive to believe that "their efforts" they would use so that "we would have already flown to Mars." So would they share their technology with us !? War accompanies the competition of peoples throughout the history of mankind. It is doomed to live and spend the lion's share of its resources on the power component for aggression or defense. A person is born into this world with a thirst for dominance over his own kind. Therefore, all dreams of universal peace, equality, justice and prosperity are just utopia, like the invention of a "magic wand" for universal transformations. You can dream, hope is useless.

[rocket757]

I didn’t dream / fantasize, it was just a cool saying.
In principle, it is true that development takes its course, and the war of technology is somewhat spurring! But the big war brings damage not small, i.e. there will be a lot of braking, all the more so if failed geniuses who could not make their great discoveries could get into her millstones!

[Mixanchik]

I always thought before why Stalin demanded to rush to Berlin in spite of the losses? Only now all this will be found out "the weapon of retaliation" of the Nazis.
Fau rockets, fighter jets ..
If we had stretched for at least a couple of months or a year, the Germans would equip these products with nuclear warheads (a dirty bomb). This is where there would be losses in the future And this fighter would have flown to Moscow without problems. At speed and high altitude .... Yet God keeps Russia!
Now it starts again .. I hope our ready!

[Fedor egoist]

Quote: Mixanchik

the Germans would equip these products with nuclear warheads (dirty bomb)

Would not be equipped. The Germans did not have nuclear bombs, and even if they did, they would not fit into a fighter.

Quote: Mixanchik

And this fighter would have flown to Moscow without problems. At speed and high altitude

Would not fly. This is not a strategic bomber.

Quote: Mixanchik

why Stalin demanded to break to Berlin, despite the loss

So that the flag above the Reichstag flutters red, not star-striped. The future symbolism of the Victory was clear to us, that to them, even then, at 45m.

Quote: Mixanchik

I always thought before

Sometimes it’s really better to think before you say anything about a topic that you have the most superficial understanding of.

[Alex 1970]

Not in the eyebrow, but in the eye

[Den717]

Quote: Fedor Egoist

Would not be equipped. The Germans did not have nuclear bombs, and even if they did, they would not fit into a fighter.

But the intelligence services in the USSR and in the United States fully admitted the closeness of the Germans to solving the problem of mastering nuclear weapons. And this did not play an important role in the timing of the opening of the "second front". It must be borne in mind that today we know what the Germans could and what they could not. And then, in 1942-43, the opposing sides could only assume and hope for a positive outcome for themselves. And yes, in fighters, bombs of large mass-dimensional parameters are not carried .... Although for a "dirty" bomb there is no need for large volumes. A size like the SB-2500 would be enough.

[Earthshaker]

On an unexpected side came the author, my respect. I think you can put an end to the dispute ..... although whom I am deceiving.

[Oleg Zorin]

Briefly and on business. Respect!

[Nikolaevich I]

Why is it necessary to "paraffin" the Me-262? Were there any chances to "bring to mind" this eroplan? Perhaps quite! Moreover, the Me-262 can be compared with the "Englishman" Gloucester "Meteor"! Both eroplanes appeared at about the same time!
Me-262

Gloucester Meteor

Me-262

Gloucester Meteor

What do you think ... is there a "similarity"? The question is not only about the "appearance", but also about the "constructive" ...
Especially, I would like to note that "similar" to the Me-262 Gloucester "Meteor" served its decently after the war! Here is the "approximate" history of "Meteor" after WW2 ...
Aircraft type F.8 (late modification ...) at various times were in service with more than 40 squadrons of the British Air Force. They also went to Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Denmark, Israel, the Netherlands and Syria. They were assembled under license at Avion's Fairey in Belgium and Fokker in Holland. The Dutch also modified older F.8s to F.4 using kits delivered from England.
Australian Meteora F.8 fought in Korea. One squadron, No. 77, received these jet fighters (instead of the promised Hunter) in February 1951 at Iwakuni AFB in Japan. After arriving in Korea, the fighters were additionally equipped with American radio compasses. "Meteors" were placed near Songchon. The first sortie took place on July 29. At first, they tried to use them to intercept enemy aircraft from a position of duty in the air. They were put up as a barrier on possible routes of approach of the MiG-15, taking off from Andong in China. It was only on August 18 that the Meteors first collided with MiGs. More precisely, a pair of MiG-15s from the 17th IAP tried to attack four Australian fighters, but did not take into account the slow speed of an unfamiliar enemy and missed. On August 25, a real air battle already took place, but both sides had no losses. Four days later, Senior Lieutenant Babonin shot down the first Meteor; another, badly damaged, barely made it to the Gimpo airfield. Quite quickly it became clear that Meteora did not pull against the MiG-15, yielding to them both in speed and maneuverability. Then they were redeployed to escort the B-29 to the rear of the North Koreans, but even here they did not crown themselves with glory. MiGs beat them regularly. Then the "Meteors" were pulled to the rear and included in the air defense system, given their good rate of climb (at low altitudes, the "Meteor" F.8 was ahead of the newest American F-86 "Saber" in climb rate). But more often they were used for auxiliary purposes - to escort downed aircraft and as radio repeaters.


























From January 1952, the Meteora began to serve as attack aircraft, carrying eight rockets each. Until the truce in July 1953, the Australians worked on ground targets.

At one time, on the F.3, as an experiment, they tested the suspension of bombs with a caliber of up to 1000 pounds and OU R. In 1951, Gloucester proposed the model G.44 "Reper" - an attack aircraft based on the F.4 with a reinforced wing, which allowed external suspension a significant amount of weapons (for example, 24 NUR). But the Air Force abandoned this aircraft, considering it unnecessary in the context of the imminent adoption of the Hunter and Swift aircraft.
Air reconnaissance could become the second niche for the aging Meteor. The RAF was in need of replacement piston Spitfires and Mosquitoes, which were now easily intercepted by jet fighters.
In 1949, a new close-range reconnaissance aircraft FR.8 (G.9L) was created on the basis of the F.41. Unlike the experienced "five", he retained a full set of four guns. There was only one camera, promising, type F.24, in the bow. He could turn either forward or to one of the sides. Experienced FR.9 made its maiden flight on March 22, 1950. 126 were built in total, of which 12 were sold to Ecuador. British intelligence officers were based partly in Germany, but they were mainly kept at bases in the Middle East.
And on 29 in March 1950, a prototype long-range high-altitude reconnaissance aircraft PR.10 (G.41M) took off.
A total of 1952 PRs were released by March 52. 10. The first aircraft of this type was received in February 1951 by the 541st squadron to replace the piston "Spitfires" PR. 19. Later, three more squadrons in the metropolis and abroad were equipped with new scouts. FR.9 and PR.10 were the last Meteors to be produced by Gloucester. ... If "Meteor" could be used for many years and "varied"; why couldn't something like this happen with the Me-262? By the way, in my opinion, in the dispute about the Me-262, practically no attention was paid to the fact that the Germans "turned" the Me-262 fighter into a light bomber or fighter-bomber (Sturmfogel / Burevestnik). And "there is an opinion" that the "swallow" fighters did not show themselves properly due to the fact that a significant part of the Me-262 aircraft were "planned" for the "Petrel"!

[NF68]

Quote: Nikolaevich I

If "Meteor" could be used for many years and "varied"; why couldn't something like this happen with the Me-262?

This could not happen with the Me-262 due to the design flaws of engines like Jumo-004 and BMW-003, and also because of the lack of heat-resistant materials from the Germans. For example, for the production of a single engine of the Jumo-004 type, 88 kg was required. nickel, and the Germans could allocate for this matter only 28 kg. The same goes for chromium, molybdenum and much more.

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: NF68

This could not happen with the Me-262 due to the design flaws of engines like Jumo-004 and BMW-003, and also because of the lack of heat-resistant materials from the Germans.

But were these "flaws" fatal? And on the "Meteor" they changed the engines, and the modifications were created "one after the other" ... The Germans simply did not have enough time to "figure out" that the construct of their engine was "not good" and to take on another ... Me-262 was not "lucky "with time" birth!

[NF68]

Quote: Nikolaevich I

Quote: NF68

This could not happen with the Me-262 due to the design flaws of engines like Jumo-004 and BMW-003, and also because of the lack of heat-resistant materials from the Germans.

But were these "flaws" fatal? And on the "Meteor" they changed the engines, and the modifications were created "one after the other" ... The Germans simply did not have enough time to "figure out" that the construct of their engine was "not good" and to take on another ... Me-262 was not "lucky "with time" birth!

The Germans were just fatal flaws and it is hard to imagine if these shortcomings would have been eliminated if the Germans had the necessary amount of heat-resistant materials. Again, eliminating the engines identified during operation would take some time, and the USSR and its Western allies would not give the Germans a respite.

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: NF68

the elimination of the engines identified during operation would take some time, and the USSR and its Western allies would not give the Germans a respite.

And I mean it .... that the Me-262 appeared at an unfortunate "for themselves" time, when the Germans did not have a "respite" to "realize and correct"!

[NF68]

Quote: Nikolaevich I

Quote: NF68

the elimination of the engines identified during operation would take some time, and the USSR and its Western allies would not give the Germans a respite.

And I mean it .... that the Me-262 appeared at an unfortunate "for themselves" time, when the Germans did not have a "respite" to "realize and correct"!

I somehow came across the fact that for Jumo-004 engines, the compressor blades were made together with the compressor housing as a single element, and for BMW-003 engines the blades were made separately from the compressor itself and then each of the blades was attached separately to the case. As a result, this led to more problems for BMW-003 engines than for the already very unreliable Jumo-004.

[Dooplet11]

I somehow came across the fact that for Jumo-004 engines, the compressor blades were made together with the compressor housing as a single element, and for BMW-003 engines the blades were made separately from the compressor itself and then each of the blades was attached separately to the case. As a result, this led to more problems for BMW-003 engines than for the already very unreliable Jumo-004.

In the description of the Yumo-004 design with respect to compressor blades and guide vanes, the following is literally stated:

Thus, the compressor vanes are attached to the disk by means of a dovetail. The vanes of the guide vane are attached to the compressor crankcase either by soldering or welding. In any case, the Yumo-004 compressor blades were not manufactured as a single disc or crankcase element. Hence, the article was misleading, and this conclusion about the causes of the problems:

As a result, this led to more problems with the BMW-003 engines than the already very unreliable Jumo-004.

false.

[mark1]

How nice to read such an article.

[NF68]

With Jumo-004 and BMW-003 engines, the prospects are pretty vague. Especially with BMW-003 engines. Henschel's engine might have been better. But again, not having enough heat-resistant materials, and even under the Allied bombs, it is difficult to achieve the desired result.

[Dooplet11]

Judging by the post-war reports on the study of these engines in the USSR, the main problems of reliability were hidden in the processes of engine acceleration and the processes of fuel supply and mixture control. Although the issues of raising the temperature in front of the turbine (to increase the specific characteristics of the engines) also took place.

[NF68]

Quote: Dooplet11

Judging by the post-war reports on the study of these engines in the USSR, the main problems of reliability were hidden in the processes of engine acceleration and the processes of fuel supply and mixture control. Although the issues of raising the temperature in front of the turbine (to increase the specific characteristics of the engines) also took place.

Maybe you are right. But again, how long would it take the Germans to eliminate all these shortcomings?

[Dooplet11]

A little less than those who drove into these problems, looking from the side at the work of the Germans. By the way, they solved the problem of mixture composition and gas temperature adjustment, but did not manage to bring the solution to a large series. But the problem of pick-up everyone had to solve for a long time and hard. But ICE indicators for acceleration time from 10% power (thrust) to 100% turbofan engines have not yet been reached.

[NF68]

Quote: Dooplet11

A little less than those who drove into these problems, looking from the side at the work of the Germans. By the way, they solved the problem of mixture composition and gas temperature adjustment, but did not manage to bring the solution to a large series. But the problem of pick-up everyone had to solve for a long time and hard. But ICE indicators for acceleration time from 10% power (thrust) to 100% turbofan engines have not yet been reached.

So the problems caused by the lack of heat-resistant alloys among the Germans will still remain as far as the raw materials are with the Germans, things are still bad and it is not clear how this can be solved.

[Dooplet11]

Can I have a dock about this ?:

So the problems caused by the lack of heat-resistant alloys, the Germans will still remain

What problems? What is the deficit of which alloy regarding the WFD? Or is it speculative, due to the lack of alloying elements for armor steel?

[NF68]

Quote: Dooplet11

Can I have a dock about this ?:

So the problems caused by the lack of heat-resistant alloys, the Germans will still remain

What problems? What is the deficit of which alloy regarding the WFD? Or is it speculative, due to the lack of alloying elements for armor steel?

The Germans already at the beginning of WWII did not have enough molybdenum, nickel, copper, cadmium, zinc, chromium, tungsten, and much more. In 1942, even the steels and the Germans could not get as much as they needed. At the bottom of the article there are 2 tables.

http://alternathistory.com/voprosy-kasayushhiesya-linejnyh-korablej-kriegsmarine/

Or regarding the development of aircraft engines:

The lack of many materials took place immediately after the outbreak of war. During the war, the situation with the supply of alloying materials became more complicated, and their consumption for the needs of industry, on the contrary, increased rapidly. Then attempts began to replace the scarce alloying additives with materials that were available in the country. In January of the 1941 of the year, the first results were obtained: in total, 687 of engine parts began to be made from materials that were mined in Germany or in countries occupied by Germany. 280 of them began to be made without preliminary lengthy verification. 460 parts previously manufactured from steel containing molybdenum began to be manufactured without molybdenum additives. In other 227 parts, 80 kg of copper, 20 kg of nickel, 3 kg of zinc, 0,5 kg of cadmium were saved.

http://alternathistory.com/aviatsionnye-dvigateli-firm-siemens-bramo-bmw-po-materialam-karla-prestelya/

When the Germans carefully studied the captured American and English equipment during WWII, they could only dream of the quantity of additional additives that the Allies could afford in the production of military equipment.

[Dooplet11]

Let's move from the abstract "hospital average" data on the presence of alloying elements in the German industry to concrete data to discuss Germany's problems with high-temperature steels at VeERDe. Which heat resistant alloy was used in each specific engine? How many and what alloying elements were needed to produce one engine? Were there options in the form of other alloys to increase the temperature of the gases in front of the turbine and how would their use affect the consumption of alloying elements per engine? What share of these alloying elements accounted for the total industrial needs for the production of, for example, 3000 engines per month? Until you and I answer these specific questions, the statement about the problems with high-temperature alloys in the production of jet engines in Germany will be purely speculative.

[NF68]

Quote: Dooplet11

Let's move from the abstract "hospital average" data on the presence of alloying elements in the German industry to concrete data to discuss Germany's problems with high-temperature steels at VeERDe. Which heat resistant alloy was used in each specific engine? How many and what alloying elements were needed to produce one engine? Were there options in the form of other alloys to increase the temperature of the gases in front of the turbine and how would their use affect the consumption of alloying elements per engine? What share of these alloying elements accounted for the total industrial needs for the production of, for example, 3000 engines per month? Until you and I answer these specific questions, the statement about the problems with high-temperature alloys in the production of jet engines in Germany will be purely speculative.

Such detailed details have never come across to me. It is necessary to delve thoroughly somewhere in the German archives and there is no guarantee that the necessary data will appear in these archives since some of the archives were destroyed at the end of WWII. For example, as regards the data on the number of piston engines produced by the Daimler-Benz concern in the 1945 year, these data were not preserved, but data are available for previous years. In some German sources, it is mentioned in some places how the Germans tried to find erzatmaterialy, what problems this led to during the development of engines and other products for the Wehrmacht. It is mentioned that the production of sub-caliber anti-tank shells made of tungsten carbide was very limited and that at the end of the 1943 of the year due to the lack of tungsten 1600 armor-piercing shells made of tungsten carbide for tank guns 8,8-cm-KwK 36 L even had to.

[Dooplet11]

Therefore, we can confidently talk about the effect of tungsten hunger on the production of shells. But the impact of the absence of heat-resistant steels on the production of jet engines can only be discussed after a thorough digging. It may turn out that the development of their performance characteristics or the amount produced was more influenced by instrumentation, and not metallurgy. But this is not a statement, but an example!

[NF68]

Quote: Dooplet11

Therefore, we can confidently talk about the effect of tungsten hunger on the production of shells.

Metal processing is also directly related.

But the impact of the absence of heat-resistant steels on the production of jet engines can only be discussed after a "thorough digging".

Even those references that are found in German literature are quite sufficient to imagine the problems that the Germans had. Something you can find here in this book:

https://d-nb.info/97146118x/04

Articles about the most famous German piston engines of the 30-40's from this book I translated into Russian. Prior to this, in Russian, I and some of my friends had never come across such data on German aircraft engines. Some data can be found on German-language forums.

[Dooplet11]

By the way, the temperature of the gases at the turbine inlet at Yumo-004 was 800-820 degrees Celsius, that is, in the same ranges as other VEERDe of that time. The English on Derwent 1 and Nina managed to get 890 and 850, respectively. But these are the next generation engines.

[NF68]

Quote: Dooplet11

By the way, the temperature of the gases at the turbine inlet at Yumo-004 was 800-820 degrees Celsius, that is, in the same ranges as other VEERDe of that time. The English on Derwent 1 and Nina managed to get 890 and 850, respectively. But these are the next generation engines.

So the British and materials for the production of turbojet engines were better. If even in the most difficult years for the 1941-1942 BI for the piston aircraft engines, the British, thanks to the Americans, could use so many dopants that the Germans could not even dream of such a thing.

[Snakebyte]

I do not think that the USSR in 1946 experienced problems with dopants.
But the development of the RD-10 and RD-20 engines, which are copies of the German BMW and YuMO, were abandoned in favor of the British "Nin" and "Derwent".

[Zaurbek]

The next generation of German cars would not be much different from Sabers or MiG-15

[sevtrash]

Germany was one of the developed countries in Europe, with traditionally high levels of education and culture of the population, so it is not surprising that they could create new high-tech products, including advanced military equipment. Which, of course, must go through a certain period of development, treatment of "childhood diseases" in order to become a perfect weapon. But there was no time and resources.
From this point of view, the Me262 is such a staged aircraft, which, perhaps, could not prove itself due to the novelty, which requires the development of a special strategy and tactics for a jet aircraft. For example, the tactics of using salvos with 24 missiles fell already at the end of the war, if earlier, perhaps the Me262 would be able to reduce the level of bombing on German cities.

[Old26]

Quote: rocket757

Very interesting!
Needless to say, the "twilight German genius" showed himself in the creation of murder weapons in full!
Their efforts would be, but they will direct them to creation !!!

By the way, Victor and other comrades. In the 90s TsAGI published 5 books under the general title "Luftwaffe Aircraft" (or "History of Luftwaffe Aircraft"). Now I don't remember exactly, but it's too lazy to go into the closet to look for. A4 format, the number of pages (offhand) is about 100-150. A very interesting technical analysis of cars with an indication of all their pros and cons. As for promising models, two books were published at about the same time. One was called "Secret projects of Luftwaffe fighters", the second - "Secret projects of Luftwaffe bombers", Bright, colorful. It is clear that these are only sketches for a very distant future, but it was interesting to read. And in relation to other countries, similar books are being published in the "damned west". There are also secret projects of Great Britain and the USSR.

One thing was always surprising. Any design bureau could publish its own books on the history of aircraft of its own company. But laziness. In fact, in 30 years, only Rigmant's book "Under the Sign of ANT and TU", several volumes of "Myasishchev's Aircraft Encyclopedia", and even in the early 80s - a book about IL aircraft, were published in Russian. The rest is either foreign authors about our machines, or our authors, but in a hostile language. And most importantly, if something was produced, especially in the 90s, it was in scanty circulation at huge prices. I then looked through a similar book about MIGs. Even various schemes of the MIG-29 models were given (so to speak, changes in the process of working on this machine). So what? The price was about 1/5 of my then salary. I thought I might eat it electronically now - but alas

[Aviator_]

Good detailed article with links to the document. No emotional sobs. Respect to the author!

[Elturisto]

The message of the author is not correct, and smacks of groveling before Germany ... Isn't there too many copies (1400) built for eusperements? The shortcomings of the aircraft were already clear during its refinement. Hitler instructed that the Me-262 be used as a bomber, but the Air Force functioners ignored the task. From here, the Germans were serially building a crude, unpromising aircraft in conditions of an acute shortage of resources. Critics of the Me-262 project , rightly see him as a manifestation of the "Aryan genius" who gave birth to such freaks as the 700-mm "Douro" or "Tiger".

[Dooplet11]

I don’t know where you saw the cringing ...
Yak-15 built 270 units, MiG-9 602 units. In conditions of devastation and shortage, isn't it too much for transient raw machines? Although not Aryan, but also a "genius"?
Also did not have to produce? Fly on the Yak-9 and La-9 before the appearance of the MiG-15, and then with the edge and pilots and technicians retrain?
Yes, the Me-262 was not ideal as a jet fighter. From the heights of afterthought, it is clear where and how you can do better. But the Me-262 was faster and better armed than any piston of the time. And he formed a culture of exploitation of "whistles". Naturally (again, from the top of the post-knowledge) this was a waste of resources. Useless for the Reich. But it is very useful in gaining experience for the winners, which they did not fail to take advantage of.

[kanskebron]

Yes, the Me-262 was not ideal as a jet fighter. From the heights of afterthought, it is clear where and how you can do better. But the Me-262 was faster and better armed than any piston of the time. And he formed a culture of exploitation of "whistles". Naturally (again, from the top of the post-knowledge) this was a waste of resources. Useless for the Reich.

But I was always interested in the question. Why did the "genius" aircraft designers of the Reich not take the simple path of creating aircraft of the "redone" scheme (Yak-15 and Mig-9), because it was possible to reduce engine consumption and use gliders from serial aircraft (Me-109, FV-190), and started to create new concepts in the form of Me-262 and Not-162?

[svp67]

Quote: kanskebron

Why did the "genius" aircraft designers of the Reich not take the simple path of creating aircraft of the "redone" scheme (Yak-15 and Mig-9), because it was possible to reduce engine consumption and use gliders from serial aircraft (Me-109, FV-190), and started to create new concepts in the form of Me-262 and Not-162?

Well, with Me-262 it’s understandable, the engines were very raw and two engines, this is duplication. After capturing the Me-262 and familiarizing themselves with its design, allied specialists especially noted its maintainability, in terms of replacing the engines. Half an hour was enough for the whole procedure, that is, the plane was again ready for departure.
The Me-109 as a base for such an upgrade was not suitable, from the word "absolutely", and all thanks to its "ingenious design", especially the wing and chassis.
Well, and Kurt Tank, from "Focke Wolf", was too smart and perceptive to understand that remaking the FV-190, and most importantly, to achieve outstanding results from him, is more difficult than bringing it to Ta-183

[Dooplet11]

Two engines are not duplication, but the result of obtaining the required thrust to ensure the specified performance characteristics. The rest I agree with you.

[Dooplet11]

Unlike Yakovlev, they did not set themselves the task of inserting the WFD into the existing piston airframe. Therefore, the redanny scheme "did not enter".

[Elturisto]

Yak-15 ersatz, based on the Yak-3., MiG-9 is an advanced machine in terms of layout solutions (2 engines inside the fuselage).

[123456789]

Me-262 and the perspective of the Third Reich fighter jets

[BAI]

All models with swept wings. Those. the Germans already understood the reason for being dragged into an uncontrolled dive.

[Dooplet11]

Those. the Germans already understood the reason for being dragged into an uncontrolled dive.

Yes. The terms "wave crisis" and "shock waves" were working terms at that meeting.

[Tarasios]

The last drawing Messerschmitt (I) - even now it looks quite modern and even beautiful. I think that for 20-25 years the Germans were ahead of the rest in this matter.

[ABM]

simultaneously develop 7 identical projects in 1945? hmm ...

[Nycomed]

The Germans had a large number of projects, including and revolutionary, for their time. But, the engines ... The Germans were, to put it mildly, not very successful. Now, if they had Whittle engines ... Then ...

[kalibr]

Quote: Den717

A person is born into this world with a thirst for dominance over his own kind. Therefore, all dreams of universal peace, equality, justice and prosperity are just utopia, like the invention of a "magic wand" for universal transformations. You can dream, hope is useless.

Well said!

[iouris]

Dear authors, have become pathologists from aviation. The exhumation of these corpses is beneficial only to those who are engaged in the rehabilitation of the German Reich and the belittling role of the USSR in WWII.

[Dooplet11]

You're right. The TsAGI BNT was engaged in the rehabilitation of the Reich, translating German documents, the Air Force Research Institute also rehabilitated the Reich, carefully studying both the German technique and the translated documents. Yes, and wrote reports and technical descriptions of aircraft corpses. And it was all profitable for test pilot Kochetkov when he tested the Me-262 at maximum speed with a risk to his life. Downplayed the role of the USSR in WWII! Contra, in a word!

[iouris]

In 1945, experts, studying trophy technologies, were engaged in a matter very important for the state, and today completely different issues are being solved, ideological, in particular, the reader is constantly led to the idea that the German Reich could have won even then. I do not see the point in this discussion, since the USSR ceased to exist anyway.

[Dooplet11]

the reader is constantly led to the idea that the German Reich could have won even then.

“Have you come up with such an idea?” Strange you are subject to technical documents.

[iouris]

Quote: Dooplet11

Strange you are subject to technical documents.

What do you mean by a "technical document"? Where in the articles "technical documents"
Experts should talk about the latest. The technologies under consideration have long lost relevance. The resource was likened to a student from a famous joke who knew only about the earthworm. At each exam, he came across a ticket with a question about a worm. When, finally, he pulled out the question about the elephant, he managed to elegantly circumvent this difficulty by drawing a picture: the elephant strikes with a tusk, the layer of the earth breaks off ... and there is a worm under it.

[Dooplet11]

Where in the articles "technical documents"

- and what articles are meant? If mine, then here: https://topwar.ru/uploads/posts/2019-08/1565940127_ris1.jpg

[shinobi]

At the time of its creation, the 262 was even a raw, but the most advanced fighter. Its main problems were engines and Hitler. If you didn’t order it to convert them into bombers, for allied aviation everything would be much sadder. 262 had enough fire power in one pass to overwhelm any flying fortress. And no one could catch it, and it costs a lot. This in particular. German experience laid the foundation for all jet aircraft in the world. This is in general. And to engage in criticism of that period, if only stupid and hopeless, for history does not tolerate a subjunctive mood.

[Dooplet11]

And to engage in criticism of that period, if only yes, the idea is stupid and hopeless, for history does not tolerate a subjunctive mood.

You're right. But the article is not about that. It is about what the Germans knew about the pros and cons of Me-262. They tried to make maximum use of the pros and looked for ways to get rid of the cons. And no alternative.

[shinobi]

Yes, someone would argue! In knowledge, power!

[Pavel57]

Interesting article. It confirms once again that history is a science with some stretch, since in reality there is only an interpretation of some facts, the objectivity of which you have to believe in.

[Kostadinov]

Quote: kanskebron

But I was always interested in the question. Why did the "genius" aircraft designers of the Reich not take the simple path of creating aircraft of the "redone" scheme (Yak-15 and Mig-9), because it was possible to reduce engine consumption and use gliders from serial aircraft (Me-109, FV-190), and started to create new concepts in the form of Me-262 and Not-162?

This was not the problem of the designers, but the social system of Germany then (capitalism, the era of imperialism). Aircraft manufacturing companies in Nazi Germany are private enterprises for which the goal is one - maximum profit. They wanted to make heavier bombers with 4, 6 or 8 engines, and the government ordered them only fighters and light bombers. And they began to develop perhaps the largest twin-engine fighter-bombers themselves.
They did not like jet engines either - they were very cheap and did not need expensive high-octane gasoline.

[Dooplet11]

They did not like jet engines either - they were very cheap and did not need expensive high-octane gasoline.

- maybe they didn’t like it, but by the number of developments they outperformed all the opponents combined. Here already the music was ordered by OKL and RLM.

[Kostadinov]

Quote: Dooplet11

They did not like jet engines either - they were very cheap and did not need expensive high-octane gasoline.

- maybe they didn’t like it, but by the number of developments they outperformed all the opponents combined. Here already the music was ordered by OKL and RLM.

So for sure - by the number of developments they went around the world several times. Among these developments, several reactive intercontinental bombers were also hit. And that's all at the beginning of 1945 when their homeland was desperate for a cheap, single-engine fighter with the simplest controls and training for young pilots.
The state asked for the simplest aircraft, and as soon as possible, but received some kind of fantastic tailless, swept and flying krill and all sorts of other devils with a deadline of adoption not earlier than the summer of 1946.
The YuMO-004 engine had already been brought to an acceptable state by the middle of 1944, what prevented it from being installed according to the redone scheme on production fighters? It was not Yakovlev who invented the simplest solution. All the German designers knew that this could be done quickly, but no one lifted a finger. But smelling the nailed Heinkel began to make a new fighter from scratch, a twin-engine Meserschmitt weighing as much as 6 tons is also a new "fighter", other firms flooded RLM with the most fantastic projects.
Refinement of the engine (YuMO-004) was delayed for 2 years, and in no hurry until they started bombing the synthetic fuel plants. Only then did they come to the conclusion that the unity of command for their aircraft took them seriously.

[Corn]

their homeland desperately needed a cheap, single-engine fighter with the simplest controls and training for young pilots.
The state requested the simplest aircraft

what nonsense, only "hordes of air traffic with disposable pilots" in the second half of the war, the Reich only lacked ...
You can take a number only if there is a SIGNIFICANT numerical superiority of this number, and Germany was well aware that the Allies weren’t even close in keeping in number, so a bet was made on a qualitative breakthrough.

fantastic tailless, swept and flying wings and all sorts of other devils

all this is nothing more than an asymmetric response to the challenges that have arisen.

what prevented it from being put on serial fighter planes according to a redanny scheme?

Common sense. The installation of a turbojet engine instead of a piston engine required a radical alteration of the entire aircraft, while maintaining a poor front view, nowhere to put the radar.

[Dooplet11]

nowhere to put a radar.

- Well, when designing fighters, and especially single-engine ones, no one thought about where to put the radar. At least this was the first question in the list of layout issues.

[Corn]

well, when designing fighter jets

only Germans needed nosebleeds, including especially night one, I don’t think that having personally seen from the first half of the war all the benefits of radar, they could create an interceptor on which you can’t put a radar.

[Dooplet11]

only Germans needed nosebleeds, including especially night one, I don’t think that having personally seen from the first half of the war all the benefits of radar, they could create an interceptor on which you can’t put a radar.

- However, of the projects presented in the technical translation under discussion, only two projects could conditionally carry the radar with a free nose (and these two have the greatest number of questions on aerodynamics at high speeds), while none of the projects had a second meta for the radar operator. Apparently, the RLM specification, according to which the projects were made, did not imply the use of a fighter as a night lamp.

[Corn]

However, out of those presented in the technical translation under discussion, only two projects could conditionally carry radar

the translation under discussion has nothing to do not only with me262, which was flying for a long time at that time, but also with any other combat vehicle. As I understand it, this is just a discussion of theorists about the development of jet aircraft, the problem of transition is not supersonic.

[Dooplet11]

As I understand it, this is just a discussion of theorists about the development of jet aircraft, the problem of transition is not supersonic.

Do not understand correctly. This is a discussion of working projects launched by order of the GL / CE 2 / III Division of the Imperial Ministry of Aviation (RLM).

[Corn]

discussion of working projects

and you won’t say it right away, because the translation does not say a word about combat qualities, operational nuances, economic justification, and in general it is completely incomprehensible what tasks the machines were designed and how they should solve them.

[Dooplet11]

for in the translation there is not a word about the combat qualities, operational nuances, economic justification

- Have you seen the translation? It has a ton of words about combat qualities and operational nuances, ranging from the possibility of long-term aimed fire to stability issues.

and in general, it is completely incomprehensible what tasks were facing the designed machines and how they had to solve them

- There are quite a lot of publicly available online sources about these projects on this issue.

[Kostadinov]

Quote: Corn

well, when designing fighter jets

only Germans needed nosebleeds, including especially night one, I don’t think that having personally seen from the first half of the war all the benefits of radar, they could create an interceptor on which you can’t put a radar.

The Germans, like blood from their nose, needed to hit a jet fighter as early as possible and as many as possible. To stop the daytime massaging of the bombardment with heavy bombers using jet fighters, the only practically feasible task for the Luftwaffe was beaten from the second half of 1944. The nightly bombings did not strike so dangerous and the technology did not allow them to stop then. It was impossible to stop the daytime bombing of fighter-bombardment and ground attack aircraft by small groups, both on the battlefield and in the teal.

[Kostadinov]

Quote: Corn

their homeland desperately needed a cheap, single-engine fighter with the simplest controls and training for young pilots.
The state requested the simplest aircraft

what nonsense, only "hordes of air traffic with disposable pilots" in the second half of the war, the Reich only lacked ...
You can take a number only if there is a SIGNIFICANT numerical superiority of this number, and Germany was well aware that the Allies weren’t even close in keeping in number, so a bet was made on a qualitative breakthrough.

What is the number and quality of the rivets here? Why are piston fighter jets themselves not rubbish, and when they have a jet engine they become rubbish? The Germans did not beat any special vibior. Either several thousand pre-equiped fighters with jet engines in combat units until January 1945 (there will certainly not be a numerical superiority, but there will still be an operatively noticeable number of fighters with superiority in speed and provided with fuel) or it will be like the Germans really did - 400 Me-262, almost none of the Xe-162s and several dozens of Ar-234s until April 1945. The operationally negligible number of new high-speed vehicles which pilots were difficult to learn.

fantastic tailless, swept and flying wings and all sorts of other devils

all this is nothing more than an asymmetric response to the challenges

A jet engine instead of a piston engine was quite enough as an asymmetric answer here and now, and everything else was not beaten by an asymmetric answer, but by real nonsense and sabotage in the face of the enemy. What impudence should be taken in November 44 and January 45 to occupy the leadership of the Luftwaffe with the projection of aircraft of exotic aerodynamic schemes for which it took at least a year to verify their completeness and then at least another year for fine-tuning. A very kind uncle beat the Führer and then shot no one.

what prevented it from being put on serial fighter planes according to a redanny scheme?

Common sense. The installation of a turbojet engine instead of a piston engine required a radical alteration of the entire aircraft, while maintaining a poor front view, nowhere to put the radar.

I don’t know how to see this healthy smysl, but the installation of YuMO-004 according to the redian scheme on the Yak is practically the easiest and bistriest way to a jet plane. Among other things, he beat the easiest pilot to retrain. It was necessary in the first turn to stop massaging the daytime bombing, and you could think about radars and visibility later.

[Romv]

Thanks, I read it with pleasure