Me.262 fighter jet: shame and degradation of the Luftwaffe

189

The future, its forerunners and false prophets


The Third Reich fighter jets had nothing to do with their descendants. Me.262 “Schwalbe” was created under the influence of its predecessors and combined the characteristics of piston-era aircraft, unacceptable for a jet aviation. First of all, it is noticeable in its wing with a thick profile and low sweep.





After the war, no one used the technical solutions incorporated in the Me.262 design. None of the post-war fighters had wings with such a profile or nacelles located under the planes (outside the main landing gear).

With the jet age, the Schwalbe was related only to the principle of operation of a turbojet engine. Everything else was a lie.

Experimental model, which in the confusion gave "good" to start the series.

Haste cost the Luftwaffe dearly. And the Schwalbe itself turned out to be a dead-end branch of aviation development.

Reactive Me.262 and piston Thunderbolt P-47D had a normal take-off weight of about 6,5 tons


The wing area of ​​the Thunderbolt was 28 square meters. meters In "Schwalbe" - 22 square. m

Record weight "Thunderbolt" by the standards of single-engine piston fighters was compensated by the size of its wing, an area of ​​1,6 times larger than that of La-5.

Designers "Thunder" no illusions. They had to create a fighter to confront the same piston aircraft. Despite the huge mass, “fatty” kept the proportions and interrelation of characteristics peculiar to its rivals. Of the benefits is the proportional growth of the “payload,” which meant powerful armament and equipment, expensively richer compared to lighter machines.

Me.262 fighter jet: shame and degradation of the Luftwaffe



Top down - P-51 Mustang, Me.109, P-47, FW-190


With specific indicators 220-230 kg / m2 The Thunderbolt could be considered a successful fighter while it was the only type of combat vehicle capable of effectively escorting bombers and fighting at heights over 8 km. At the very least, the P-47 could “raise” a significant amount weapons, fuel, avionics and various systems for long-range flight and to make some vigorous maneuvers at high altitudes.

With the advent of other fighters equipped with “high-altitude” turbocharged engines, the Tandera quickly launched the initiative to the more balanced Mustangs. Along with Lavochkins, Messerschmitts and Spitfires, they preferred to enter into battle with values ​​of the specific load of 200 and less than kg per square meter. meter wing.

The wing load of the jet Me.262 approached 300 kg / m2


The Germans slashed his wings without looking. The load on the Me.262 wing exceeded the specific indicators of all jet aircraft - ten years ahead! All MiG-15 and "Sabre", which were created for air combat, and not for flying in a straight line.

Value 300 kg/m2 corresponded to the first generation of supersonic fighters (MiG-19, the second half of the 1950-s).

But supersonic aircraft engines had afterburner chambers and developed crazy cravings. And how did the Luftwafl optimism begin?



Howls, whistles, but does not pull


"Junkers" Jumo-004 - the world's first serial turbojet engine with KNFX 880.

Run in a large series of turbofan engines with such characteristics in the most neutral epithets can be described as an adventure.

Two “whistles” under the wing provided “Schwalbe” with a total of less than 1,8 tons of thrust. This is very bad. There can be no comparison with the fighters of the post-war period. "Schwalbe" was inferior in thrust to the piston peers!

On paper, the Me.262 overtook piston fighters at 150 km / h. But any maneuver is always associated with a loss of speed. And again, the Swallow did not have time to pick up speed.

Desperately pulling the fuel knob was fraught. The sudden movement caused the flame to stall and stop the Jumo-004. For Schwalbe, this meant a fire engine and another disaster for non-combat reasons.

Painfully stretched for a second. All the pilot could do was wait and wait while low-powered engines accelerate his plane. But will the enemy fighters wait?

Unlike turbojet engines, piston thrust was created by a propeller group


Even without analyzing the geometry and efficiency of the propellers and the mass of the air thrown by them, it is known that under normal conditions thrust from the take-off mass is required for flight under normal conditions. The thrust of fighters of the WWII period could reach 0,5.

The larger the fighter, the more powerful the engine. The heaviest ("Corsair", "Thunderbolt"), whose take-off weight was close to the indicators "Schwalbe", used units with appropriate sizes and indicators.


18-cylinder engines with 2000 or more horsepower, which rotated 4-meter propellers, provided thrust over 3 tons in those modes where speed was typically set.


Against 2х880 kilograms of force developed by the Jumo-004 thrust. The difference is one and a half times fatal in real conditions.

Due to insufficient engine thrust, Schwalbe required runways with a length of at least 1500 meters. From the idea of ​​powder accelerators quickly abandoned - such jokes all got the order. The impossibility of basing Mee.262 on ordinary field airfields put the Reich's air force, which was already breathing its last, in an absolutely desperate position.

Ubermenshi built the "fighter of the future", not having the necessary experience and technology. The result was a replica of a heavy piston fighter with cut off wings and an exceptionally frail motor.

But how he whistled, how he whistled!

Whistling and shaking


In theory, the advantage of jet thrust is to achieve near-sonic and supersonic speeds. But it had nothing to do with German crafts. According to reports, the Schwalbe designated the speed limit 869 km / h (less than 0,8M). When it was exceeded, "strange" effects began, such as deafening blows, loss of control and delaying into an uncontrolled dive.

German ubeninenergy cut the wings, forgetting to change their profile.

In the era of jet aircraft, much sharper profiles and wings are used that use laminar flow. To improve the road stability and prevent the spread of air flow disturbances over the wing, various tricks are used in the form of forkiils and aerodynamic crests.


6 combs on the wing consoles of the subsonic MiG-17, obviously made just like that?

To find out these moments and features of the flight at transonic speeds, it was necessary to carry out more aerodynamic tests, and not to rush to launch in the Messerschmitt-262 series.

It is curious that during the war years only one North American managed to design and launch a fighter with a laminar wing. The aircraft was called "Mustang". Although the P-51 did not fly at speeds at which there was a strong need for such a wing, the laminar flow helped reduce drag in flight and lower fuel consumption. What mattered in the long-range raids when accompanied by bombers.

By enemies from the belly of the ta-ta


The only tactic to use such ambiguous fighters was an attack at high speed on the "boxes" of strategic bombers. But here story Schwalbe acquired a dramatic turn.

Creating the "Luftwaflu", the Germans made a mistake in everything, even in the choice of weapons.



At first glance, it sounds powerful: four automatic guns caliber 30 mm.

650 shots per minute, 4 barrel = 13 kg of red-hot lead per second!

The MK-108 aircraft cannon was exceptionally light, only 63 kg. The German system weighed less than the Allied air cannons at much smaller caliber. Created by Soviet barbarians, the WN-23 hardly fit into the 66 kg, another well-known gun “Ispano” of the caliber 20 mm had weight with a magazine under the 70 kg!

Ease, compactness, fire!

The secret to the lightness of the MK 108 was that it was missing ... the trunk.



The trim length of 540 mm was found to be sufficient for the 30-mm air cannon, which in its purpose required flat shooting. The length of the so-called The "trunk" was only 18 calibers. For comparison, the "Hispano Ciuiza" had a barrel length 80 caliber!

The initial velocity of the projectile (540 m / s) contrasted sharply with the performance of other air cannons that were recognized during the war. The Soviet ShVAK - 800 m / s. In "Hispano-Suize" - 880 m / s. Domestic large-caliber H-37 - up to 900 m / s!

Let me explain, here the conversation is not about the calibers and the power of ammunition. Taking into account the conditions of air combat and the lack of time for aiming, the shells of the air cannons must fly along a strictly predictable trajectory. Aircraft guns are simply required to have good excellent ballistics.

Compactness, manufacturability, an abundance of simple stamped parts, a high rate of fire - everything did not matter. Uberpushka MK 108 could not main thing, for which any firearm is created. Launch projectiles with the necessary speed so that they reach the enemy.

As experiments have shown, the deviation of the MK 108 projectile at a distance of 1000 meters was more than 40 meters!

The target range of the gun (150-200 meters) was several times smaller than the target range of defensive machine guns of bombers.

Another MK 108 problem was frequent failures. Because of the cold, one of the four guns fired at high altitudes. Although anyone cares ... The gun had problems and more serious.

Taran - the weapon of heroes


Shooting from the MK 108 at a calculated distance required experience and ice exposure. Taking into account the tactics of Me. 262, attacking at maximum speed, aim and shoot had at the last second before the collision with the target.

In practice, after the first shot, the Me.262 pilots preferred to turn aside. The next moment, they were concerned about another problem - no matter how they were finished off by the escort Mustangs.

Instead of the formidable weapon 4х30 mm each Me.262 carried four useless "crackers". In the best traditions of German engineering turned into 300 kg of dead ballast.

Mk 108 is in fact the best that was created by the gloomy German gunsmiths. Other air guns of a similar caliber, suitable for installation on a fighter, were in principle absent. The only possible competitor, the obsolete MK 103 by that time, did not fit due to the prohibitive mass (141 kg) and insufficient rate of fire. There was the possibility of returning to smaller calibers, the very successful MK.151 / 20, but then the Nazis, as they say, suffered ...

The total inefficiency of cannon armament has given rise to experiments with unguided aircraft rockets. The missiles, at least, were launched from a distance of 600 ... 1000 and from the "Fortress" system, when there was still enough time to aim, without risking ramming the target and not being substituted for machine-gun fire. There are no exact numbers on the combat use of the R4M system, however, given the post-war interest of the air forces of many countries in equipping fighter-interceptors with NAR units, the missiles could be the only effective Me.262 weapon.

Technique created by geniuses


"Whistle", inferior in terms of thrust-to-weight ratio, acceleration qualities and maneuverability of piston fighters. Armed with guns without a barrel. Requiring two types of fuel, highly qualified specialists for maintenance and high-quality airfields (which looked especially funny at the end of the war). And also - mandatory fighter cover with "ordinary" Me-109s, because. the jet plane after takeoff was completely helpless in the air. All the time until its speed exceeded the speed of piston fighters.

In order not to die in the first seconds after takeoff, an experienced ace who had completed a retraining course and was familiar with all the features of the Schwalbe had to be in the cockpit of the Me.262. Amazing takeoff manipulations. Absolute avoidance of maneuvering in the horizontal plane and any maneuvers that lead to loss of speed. One wrong move of the RUD is death. Landing with one engine running is death.

Pilot ace. Sniper pilot Such every day was getting smaller.

The bottom edge of the engine nacelle hung half a meter above the ground: instead of an airplane, the Germans turned out to be a vacuum cleaner. For the operation of the Schwalbe, long and clean runways of concrete were required. The requirement, it should be noted, is very arrogant for aviation during the Second World War period.

The creators of the "Luftwaffe" knocked out recognition and funding for themselves, demonstrating to the leadership of their own "Robot Fedor” is a project that only superficially resembled the technology of the future. Having neither the necessary materials, nor technologies, nor even a concept of the principles of operation of such equipment.

In an effort to impress the authorities and "push through" the plane at any cost, the creators of Me.262 made gross miscalculations even in such matters as the composition of weapons. Where, it would seem, only proven and known solutions were used.

This is not about "childhood diseases." All of the above are incorrigible deficiencies in the design of the Me.262, due to the inability to build a combat-capable jet in 1944.

The interest of the Germans in jet engines was explained by the deplorable state of their aircraft manufacturing and engine-building industries. In which it was easier to run such crafts, than to create your own analogue of "Griffin" or "Double Wasp."

Same age "Schwalbe" - fighter "Gloucester Meteor"


All of the above fully applies to the British project "Gloucester Meteor". Who made the first combat missions simultaneously with the German, in July 1944 year.

The “Meteor” F.1 was distinguished by a more successful design, primarily due to the “Welland” engines, which had the best specific indicators in 1,5 times. Rolls-Royce "Weather" developed 720 kgf thrust with a dry weight 385 kg. Against 880 kgf with dry weight 719 kg at the German Jumo-004.

To the credit of the Royal Air Force, they realized the experimental nature of the car and did not build far-reaching conclusions. Nobody tried to build "Meteora" thousands of pieces. The jet machines did not take part in the battles against piston fighters: the combat missions of the Meteor were quickly reduced to the pursuit of Fau missiles flying strictly in a straight line.

Due to the continuous evolution and replacement of the "Welland" on the TRD of the new generation "Meteora" remained in service until the middle of the 50-s. Of course, the late modification of F.8 had little to do with the “Meteor” of the 1944 model.

Meteora, like Schwalbe, has sunk into oblivion. And no one else built such monsters.

The great future of jet aircraft


It was impossible to build a full-fledged fighter jet in the 1944 year.

But it became possible in 1947.

The first domestic turbojet serial engine VK-1 (РД-45) exhaled 2,6 tons of flames and fire with a dry weight of 872 kg. It was different from German crafts. four times a great resource, it did not require complex tricks using two types of fuel (takeoff on gasoline, the main flight - on kerosene / diesel. fuel from Jumo-004).

Everything that was before is just an experiment, a technical search. During the years of WWII, each of the great powers conducted research in the field of jet aircraft. And only the Germans decided to launch models into mass production and send them into battle against the most advanced piston-era aircraft.

Required quality growth: 2,5 times the best specific performance with 3 times the absolute value of thrust! These were the initial conditions for the creation of a Jet Fighter.

Only such figures opened up prospects for creating legends like the MiG-15. Which, along with the "Sabra" forever crossed out the era of piston aircraft, so great was their separation from their predecessors. And then ... And then - only higher, the aircraft went to the stars.

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189 comments
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  1. +50
    1 August 2019 18: 09
    Well, the Fritz were the first! And the first is always harder ....
    1. +61
      1 August 2019 19: 09
      Corporate identity of the forgotten idol. A powerful stream of excrement on the fan, with a very interesting presentation. It seems to me that a detailed analysis of the opus makes no sense. I confine myself to the statement that it is full of technical errors and gross, deliberate manipulation of facts. The most correct epithet to the article is incorrect.
      Oleg, please do not talk about aviation and tanks. Your theme is fleet. In it you and the material know better and write more interesting. Well, or spend a few hours more on an article.
      By the way, I would read an article on the aviation topic with the signature Kaptsov / Skomorokhov. Could an interesting duet come out.
      1. +4
        1 August 2019 22: 13
        Yeah, I also noticed a couple of outright "blunders", for example, about NARs, this is not for Messer, but for another also reactive, and they say there were spectacular applications.
        And in general - a goof, not a goof, and not so bad, when piston on sorties saw "from above Tempesta, from below Tempesta", and simply turned the fighter over before the battle in order to jump - Schwalbe broke through and at least something - but shot down
        1. +7
          1 August 2019 22: 48
          Quote: RWMos
          Yeah, I also noticed a couple of outright "blunders", for example, about NARs, this is not for Messer, but for another also reactive, and they say there were spectacular applications.

          On Me.262 NARs were also used - R4M, 24 pieces.

          1. +4
            1 August 2019 22: 57
            Heavy NARs were also used there, but as I recall, singly. Although the dog knows him, maybe I’m wrong here, but at one time I loved to read pilots’ memoirs, let’s say, it was such a joke that, firstly, I didn’t see anywhere about the successful use of swalby ravets ... Secondly, I remember that many were very proud of the downed Me-262, for example, Kozhedub with his partner, grheem-em, Titarenko wink Crashed down after all. Probably, they would not be proud of the victory over the iron, although Kozhedub was not particularly drifted there ...
            1. 0
              1 August 2019 23: 11
              Quote: RWMos
              Heavy NARs were also used there, but as I recall, singly. Although the dog knows him, then maybe I'm wrong

              Shirokorad writes that they shot 2500 missiles out of 10000 made.
      2. mvg
        +2
        1 August 2019 22: 53
        A plus... hi But they will be offended
      3. -1
        2 August 2019 03: 27
        Well, how on the subject of the fleet to compete with the all-knowing and wise Admiral Timokhin?
      4. +3
        2 August 2019 07: 29
        Quote: MooH
        By the way, I would read an article on the aviation topic with the signature Kaptsov / Skomorokhov. Could an interesting duet come out.


        Soorry, no. Will not work.
      5. The comment was deleted.
    2. +10
      1 August 2019 19: 15
      Absolutely right! The first is harder. I admit that a Mongol with a bow could easily “suppress the firepower” of an arquebuser. But history has put everything in its place. We fight with a firearm, but not with bows and arrows.
    3. +9
      1 August 2019 22: 11
      Quote: Theodore
      Well, the Fritz were the first! And the first is always harder ....

      No doubt ... But Kaptsov would not be Kaptsov. Yes, and this is not so
      After the war, no one used the technical solutions incorporated in the Me.262 design. None of the post-war fighters had wings with such a profile or nacelles located under the planes (outside the main landing gear).
      Here is the Su-9

      And yet I believe that "Swallow" had a more perfect design and was more perfect than his first English visa-a-vi
      1. +3
        2 August 2019 01: 17
        Quote: svp67
        Here is the Su-9
        You forgot to add 1946. The second SU-9 flew in 1957 and looked different.
      2. 0
        2 August 2019 06: 40
        Well, the Meteor’s power is still a little, but it is located higher - it’s still an important parameter.
      3. +3
        2 August 2019 09: 03
        svp67
        Yes, and this is not entirely true.
        Our Su-9, and also the Su-11 with engines of the Gloucester-Meteor type, are single, experimental experimental vehicles built in 1-2 copies. Therefore, if you don’t really find fault with Kaptsov, then he is right in some points ... Naturally, we are talking about the Su-9 and Su-11 built in 1946-47, and not about the “cocked hat” interceptors with the same “names ".
        1. 0
          2 August 2019 16: 52
          Quote: fighter angel
          svp67
          Yes, and this is not entirely true.
          Our Su-9, and also the Su-11 with the placement of engines of the "Gloucester-Meteora" type, are single, experimental experimental machines, built in 1-2 copies. Therefore, if you don't find fault with Kaptsov, then he is right in some moments ...

          And why did you ignore the Yak-25 family aircraft repeatedly mentioned in the comments?
    4. +1
      2 August 2019 11: 37
      strictly speaking, the Fritzs were not the first - the British even before the war made a turbojet engine, which we then bought for the Mig-15.
    5. +3
      2 August 2019 14: 08
      Not a very article, too many unnecessary emotions and epithets with a clear misunderstanding of the material. Especially in terms of engines.
    6. The comment was deleted.
    7. +3
      3 August 2019 16: 47
      The author count per article. It seems that when the author got to his feet, he immediately began to play basketball. The Germans were the first from here and so many mistakes. The first jet aircraft, the first assault rifle under an intermediate cartridge, the first missile, the first planned guided bomb, the first submarine 21 series, a completely new one. The author wants to humiliate the Germans, but the enemy was strong and smart, the more glorious the victory of our people
      1. -1
        4 August 2019 01: 38
        No, this author specializes in humiliating modern Russia. For example, this article was written for the phrase
        showing the leadership of his own “Fedor’s robot” - a project that only resembled the technique of the future
        1. 0
          4 August 2019 18: 04
          Robot Fedor becomes a meme, that's all. And the corresponding officials and PR people who called it advanced development have humiliated Russia.
      2. +1
        4 August 2019 14: 58
        Quote: Clever man
        It seems that when the author got to his feet, he immediately began to play basketball.

        He immediately began to play lithoball.
        first intermediate rifle assault rifle

        Some weapons historians prioritize Fedorov with his Arisaka-chambered submachine gun.
        first rocket

        The first rocket with control. Congreve missiles have been used successfully since the beginning of the XNUMXth century.
        first planned guided bomb

        Soviet remote-controlled aircraft were generally the first KR.
      3. 0
        11 August 2019 09: 49
        What difference is the first, not the first, the sense of the crude wunderwaffle for the bending Germany was indeed doubtful.
    8. The comment was deleted.
    9. +1
      7 August 2019 15: 37
      Uh, gentlemen, is it that the people were completely smoked with fenced grass and perceive Skomorokhov's humorous article, in which not a single argument of Kaptsov is disproved (it is cursed and ridiculed, yes, but not refuted - carefully re-read both articles) as a revelation?
      Me.262, created from a set of ersatz engines (ersatz engines, ersatz construction, ersatz cannons, ersatz application tactics, etc.) as a combat aircraft was frank shit ersatz, especially in the conditions of lost dominance in the air and its creators, production workers deserve to be awarded the title Hero of the Soviet Union for their enormous contribution to the defeat of the Luftwaffe and for many saved lives of our and allied pilots.
      Skomorokhov cites figures taken from the pedagogy: "During the battles on fighter modifications of the Me.262, about 150 enemy aircraft were shot down with their own losses of about 100 aircraft", but basically forgets to add "out of 2000 produced", and instead of 12000 real Bf.109 fighters, for this leaves no stone unturned from his humorous attempts to rehabilitate this substitute for the fighter. These figures are a sentence to the flying ersatz Me.262 and Kaptsov only called the shit shit and chewed in his article the contribution of each ersatz in this set of ersatz to the final result equal to zero.
      With regards to the attitude towards our opponents in the Second World War "with respect and due attention" according to Skomorokhov, then on one fairly well-known Russophobic site Warspot, these words justify the full panegyrics of articles about the glorious combat path of the SS men in Russia and allow them in their insolent pseudo-historians to call Little Russian and Lithuanian collaborators of the times of "reunification of the outskirts with Russia" Russians, and call Russians the term Muscovites pulled from the naphthalene of Polish mythology and ban anyone who disagrees.
  2. +22
    1 August 2019 18: 15
    The only association is an old joke: "I wish I was as smart before as my Sarah after."
  3. -22
    1 August 2019 18: 19
    Thank you wonderful article
    1. AUL
      +25
      1 August 2019 19: 14
      It would be nice to give some statistics in this wonderful article, in particular:
      - number of cars produced
      - number of sorties
      - number of victories
      - the number of lost in battle
      - the number of non-combat losses.
      I think it was more informative than the emotions of the author!
      1. +6
        2 August 2019 00: 13
        looked at everything that I have.
        Produced - 1433 aircraft.
        the number of sorties is unknown; pilots claimed 467 downed planes, of which more than 300 were heavy bombers.
        Lost - 611 cars damaged or destroyed during the bombing of assembly plants. Of these, 114 restored.
        Combat losses - descriptions are rather scarce - but there are. Novotny Squadron - 39 vehicles. 10.04.45/27/XNUMX when reflecting the attack of the bombers lost XNUMX.
        Also fought in trials, 3 cars for sure.
        1. AUL
          0
          2 August 2019 08: 45
          Alex, thanks for the info! hi
          With it you can already somehow judge the quality of this machine.
          1. 0
            2 August 2019 09: 08
            another nuance - experienced pilots by the spring of the 45th there was a shortage, trained trained in haste sat at the controls. hence the loss in one flight.
            Among my books there is this one: Petrov V. "Fighter Messerschmit Me 262" Shwalbe "published by Zeikhgauz. Everything is described in detail there. I also used information from A. Isaev's book - Ten Myths of World War II.
            If you show perseverance, then for sure you can find descriptions of fights involving Me-262.
            And for the visuals, the Sabaton clip - Metal Mashine
            1. 0
              6 August 2019 10: 28
              “In this sortie, I acted as the commander of one of the machines. We were deep in German airspace when a very fast aircraft flashed by from the right. "What was it?" shouted my co-pilot. Messerschmitt 262 is a jet fighter,” I replied. We see that three "V-24" in the flames are already going to the ground. Their crews, apparently, did not understand anything, the attack of German jets was so unexpected. The gunners reported seeing Me.262s flying around us. Where the hell is our fighter cover? At that moment, the bomber shook from machine-gun fire, and the cockpit was filled with the smoke of burnt gunpowder. One Me.262 flew over our heads; the gunners' machine guns fired like mad. [...] "Me.262" attacked us twice. During the second attack, we lost two more B-24s. About fifty of our pilots then died, "- this is how Ch. Beiman, the pilot of the American four-engine bomber B-5" Liberator, described his meeting with a German jet fighter on April 1945, 24. American bombers were attacked that day by Me.262s from the Jagdverband 44, an elite formation of the Luftwaffe, in which many aces of the Western and Eastern fronts were assembled. This unit was headed by Inspector General of Fighter Aviation Adolf Galland, who himself was one of the most famous aces of the Luftwaffe .......

              http://militera.lib.ru/research/isaev_av2/10.html
              1. 0
                6 August 2019 10: 35
                .......... The flight on a jet made a lasting impression on Galland. After landing, in a telephone conversation with Milch, the general said: “This is like flying to the angels!” He reflected his opinion in the official report, the essence of which is given below:

                Luftwaffe High Command

                Fighter Inspector
                Berlin, May 25, 1943

                Dear Reich Marshal.
                Last Saturday, in Augsburg, in the presence of several RLM representatives, he made a test flight on the Me.262. With regard to this machine, I can state the following:

                The plane is a huge step forward, guaranteeing us superiority in air warfare, while the enemy will use machines with piston engines.
                From the point of view of the pilot, the flight characteristics of the aircraft make a very good impression.
                Engines work well except during the take-off and landing phases.
                The plane sets new requirements for us, if we talk about the tactics of its application.
                I am asking to consider the following problem:

                The Fw 190 D fighter is constantly improving and will continue to be comparable to the Me.209 in most respects. Both aircraft, however, will not be able to overtake enemy bombers at high altitudes.
                The necessary efficiency can be ensured only when significant progress is achieved in the armaments and speed of our aircraft.

                I finally offer:
                a) stop work on "Me.209";
                b) concentrate on improving the “Fw 190” with the engines “BMW801”, “Jumo 213” and “DB 603”;
                c) to concentrate the vacated production capacities on “Me.262”.

                Upon return, I will submit a report in person.
                (signed) Adolf Galland


                from the same page
  4. +46
    1 August 2019 18: 24
    dear author

    Germans were the first in the world to launch the production of a jet fighter.
    he was at that time both the best and worst in the world for lack of others.

    not "shame and degradation"
    1. -26
      1 August 2019 18: 31
      A) if the item is unusual - does not mean that it is useful
      B) Without the necessary materials, technologies, or even an understanding of the principles of operation of such equipment.

      The result is slag. And the reason for this is the inability to make piston motors. In fact, a jet plane was easier for them to do. Of course, they could not make a combat-ready machine

      The interest of the Germans in jet engines was explained by the deplorable state of their aircraft manufacturing and engine-building industries. In which it was easier to run such crafts, than to create your own analogue of "Griffin" or "Double Wasp."
      1. +12
        1 August 2019 19: 22
        I do not agree, Oleg. Yes, a bunch of flaws. But he is the first combat jet aircraft. And if he appeared at the beginning and not at the end of the war, the Germans would have modified it. And when you are beaten on all fronts ... Then you don’t think about the flaws.
        1. 0
          3 August 2019 13: 25
          Quote: 210ox
          I do not agree, Oleg. Yes, a lot of flaws

          read somewhere that the Americans flew over me 262 and he was struck by their simplicity and quality
        2. 0
          5 August 2019 20: 38
          Quote: 210ox
          And if he appeared at the beginning and not at the end of the war, the Germans would have modified it.


          And he appeared at the beginning of the war. A jet engine patent was obtained in 1936. He-178 flew in August 1939. Me-262 - in April 1941, on Hitler's birthday. Another thing is that the plane was so crappy that test flights still could not finish. For comparison: the first flight of La-5 in March 1942, and began to arrive at the front in July 1942.
      2. +8
        1 August 2019 19: 28
        Quote: Santa Fe
        The Germans' interest in jet engines was explained by the deplorable state of their aircraft industry and engine building

        the logic is not clear.
        do you think that when the German aircraft industry was no longer able to build aircraft using established technologies, it decides to try its hand at completely new types of engines.

        even on paper, such a decision does not tolerate any criticism.
        1. -7
          1 August 2019 21: 09
          the logic is not clear.
          do you think that when the German aircraft industry was no longer able to build aircraft using established technologies, it decides to try its hand at completely new types of engines.

          Their logic is simple, like three pennies.)) I’m completely incomprehensible - that it’s incomprehensible to YOU.)))
          I explain - the Germans created in 1937 a plane that was the best and most promising aircraft in the world. Even Polikarpov admitted this.
          Accordingly, the Germans, in their pride, felt that, thanks to their racial superiority, they would create the same perfect jet aircraft.
          But all their racial superiority (intellectual) crashed into reality.
          1. +5
            1 August 2019 21: 16
            Quote: lucul
            Their logic is simple, like three pennies.)) I’m completely incomprehensible - that it’s incomprehensible to YOU.)))


            Toward the close of a lost war, mastering a new and sophisticated production technology and tactics of application is called - scurrying under the client and at the same time drinking Borjomi.
            1. -7
              1 August 2019 21: 29
              Toward the close of a lost war, mastering a new and sophisticated production technology and tactics of application is called - scurrying under the client and at the same time drinking Borjomi.

              Do you understand the difference between tactics and strategy? )))
              In short: strategy is a slow but sure path to victory, tactics are vanity, before defeat ....
              1. 0
                2 August 2019 08: 00
                Quote: lucul
                In short: strategy is a slow but sure path to victory, tactics are vanity, before defeat ....

                if even more briefly then STRATEG in Greek then commander

                strategy does not mean "a slow but sure path to victory" but planning and managing resources to achieve goals.

                history knows many great "strategists" who slowly and surely walked towards defeat and not towards victory.
        2. +2
          2 August 2019 08: 19
          In fact, the first Me-262 regiment was formed in 42 and was led by Walter Novotny. This is from what I read.
          And Yumo-004 changed within half an hour in the field. "Are you weak?"
      3. +16
        1 August 2019 19: 32
        Quote: Santa Fe
        The interest of the Germans in jet engines was explained by the deplorable state of their aircraft manufacturing and engine-building industries. In which it was easier to run such crafts, than to create your own analogue of "Griffin" or "Double Wasp."
        The German rocketry also had a "deplorable" state ... Fortunately, having received good trophies and German specialists, the Soviet Union was able to accelerate the development of rocketry from the V-2 and jet aircraft from the Me-262. In the photo, the plane of the Sukhoi Design Bureau in 1946.


        Also, for thinking about "unnecessary" and "degradation".
        Numerous messages from German pilots, engineers, high-ranking aviation officials increased interest in the jet Messerschmitt in the Soviet Union. The captured aircraft were sent to aircraft factories in Syzran and to the experimental sites of the Air Force Research Institute, where specialists carefully studied each node. In the conclusion of the act, based on the results of flight tests, it was noted, in particular, that the Me-262 is a finished jet aircraft and has a great advantage in maximum horizontal speed over modern domestic and foreign fighters with piston engines. Deputy People's Commissar of the Aviation Industry P.V. Dementiev, having received the first results of flight tests of a captured fighter, sent a letter to the Deputy Chairman of the Council of People's Commissars G.M. Malenkov with a proposal to immediately begin mass production of Soviet jet aircraft based on the Me-262. It was planned to organize the production of the aircraft at factories No. 381 in Moscow and No. 292 in Saratov. The study of the design of the aircraft, the production of drawings and adaptations of the aircraft for Soviet equipment and weapons was entrusted to the chief designer of the department Myasishchev, and the development of engines was entrusted to designer Klimov. Vladimir Mikhailovich Myasishchev, having carefully studied the design of the Me-262, also noted in his report: “I must note that this aircraft, according to the recall of the Civil Aviation Research Institute of the Air Force, has a number of operationally proven designs, such as a three-wheeled landing gear, cabin pressurization, etc., has good handling characteristics , allows the installation of very powerful weapons and its use as an attack aircraft, has a proven double training version and the possibility of further increasing the maximum flight speed (up to 900-960 km / h) and range (up to 1200 km). At the same time, equipping the Air Force with spacecraft with jet aircraft (in single-seat and two-seat training versions) can begin from the middle of 1946.
        1. 0
          1 August 2019 21: 45
          Quote: Per se.
          jet aircraft from the Me-262. Pictured is a Sukhoi Design Bureau aircraft in 1946.

          That's just the Su-9-First is not the topic. He has nothing in common with Me.262, except for the general layout.
          1. +4
            1 August 2019 21: 56
            Quote: Avis-bis
            nothing to do except general layout.
            However, the general layout is already general. In general, we must pay tribute to Oleg, who does not understand his specific humor, let him reread Mark Twain, - "How I edited an agricultural newspaper." Here, and about 262, one could answer all opponents, but the rating jumped on the topic, like this, "root crops".
            Farewell, sir, all the best, you have removed the heavy burden from my soul. If my mind has stood your agricultural articles, then nothing can harm him. Goodbye, all the best.
            1. 0
              1 August 2019 22: 08
              Quote: Per se.
              Quote: Avis-bis
              nothing to do except general layout.
              However, the overall layout is already common.

              Oooh, how bad it all is ... Everything, on this I tie communication with you.
              1. 0
                2 August 2019 05: 49
                Quote: Avis-bis
                Everything, on this I tie communication with you.
                Yes, okay, Sergei, it's not all that bad. By the way, the quote from Mark Twain ("How I edited the agricultural newspaper") is not for your soul, as well as not mine. So, bury your negative, personally I was interested to read your comments.
                1. +1
                  2 August 2019 09: 09
                  Quote: Per se.
                  Quote: Avis-bis
                  Everything, on this I tie communication with you.
                  Yes, okay, Sergei, it's not all that bad. By the way, the quote from Mark Twain ("How I edited the agricultural newspaper") is not for your soul, as well as not mine. So, bury your negative, personally I was interested to read your comments.

                  About the quote, I realized that I don't pay attention to the anonymous minuses, not mine, and I never put them myself. Sense in these "pluses / minuses" only then would be, if it was clear who the author of the assessment.
                  If we return to the productive channel, then "general layout" does not mean "one is a relative of the other." This is a term. "General layout" is the relative position of the main units of the aircraft: wing, fuselage, plumage, power plant and landing gear. The general layout of the Me.262 is described something like this - "a low-wing aircraft with a straight ("trapezoidal" can be added if desired) wing, a classic tail, with two engines located under the wing and a three-point landing gear with a nose support." The general layout of the Su-9-First is described in almost the same way with the replacement of "low-wing" by "medium-wing". But the fact is that such a description of the general layout is suitable for dozens of types of aircraft on both sides of the conflict: both piston and jet. The "Meteor" has the same layout, although the plumage is slightly different, but it is located, as it should be, on the KhChF. Boston also has the same layout! And, if you remember that the first Me.262 took off with a tail wheel, like the Me.109, it turns out that its layout coincides with the IL-4. For designers of the 1930-40s. such an arrangement was so obvious for a twin-engine aircraft that it is absolutely not surprising that the same layout was chosen for the Su-9-first as for the Me.262. Most likely, they would have chosen it, even without knowing anything about the Me.262 - all their experience just pushed them towards this. Of course, before starting the preliminary design, the Sukhovites carefully studied all the materials of their predecessors available to them - the designer who does not do this is bad. And, probably, Me.262 suggested some ideas to them, and they directly borrowed something. But these are completely different aircraft - from the location of the wing in height (this is a very significant difference from the point of view of aerodynamics) to the shape of the fuselage (aerodynamics, to a lesser extent, and manufacturability to a greater extent; as well as the convenience of placing internal equipment).
                  Moreover, the Migovites at first also considered for the MiG-9 the option of placing engines on the wing, but they rejected it in time and adopted the most correct option of all possible. the Americans somehow almost groped for this progressive layout the very first - in their twin-engine "Erkomet" engines, although they were not located inside the fuselage, they stood close to it and did not hang in the stream under the wing.
                  1. +1
                    2 August 2019 09: 53
                    Quote: Avis-bis
                    And, probably, some ideas of Me.262 suggested to them, and they borrowed something directly.
                    In general, I wanted to emphasize this, because our P-1 also, to put it mildly, did not do without the influence of the Fau-2. There are many German projects that were somehow used to create the first jet aircraft in our design bureaus. I appreciate your detailed comment. PS I don’t put any cons either.
                    1. +2
                      2 August 2019 11: 29
                      Quote: Per se.
                      In general, I wanted to emphasize this, because our R-1 also, to put it mildly, did not do without the influence of V-2.

                      R-1, yes, the further development of V-2, but the Su-9-first is not the further development of Me.262.
                      1. -1
                        2 August 2019 18: 17
                        Quote: Avis-bis
                        but Su-9-the first is not a further development of Me.262.
                        Sergey, it makes no sense to argue, for me this is no longer the point. The trophy technologies helped us a lot, this is a fact, the creation of jet aircraft and rocket science was accelerated, that’s the essence. By the way, according to the first Su-9, RD-10 engines, which were a copy of the German engines, were installed on it. I will not persuade you otherwise, however, as it turns out, according to the first Su-9, not only the layout was general.
                        In 1945, OKB V.Ya. Klimov was engaged in the introduction of the captured German JUMO-004 turbojet engine under the index RD-10 into production.

                        RD-10 was serially produced until 1953 and was operated on the first Soviet jet fighters of A.S. Yakovlev (Yak-15, Yak-17, Yak-19), S.A. Lavochkin ("150", "152", " 156 "and others), P.O. Sukhoi (Su-9) and others.
                        In the aircraft-building design bureau of A.S. Yakovlev and S.A. Lavochkin, together with CIAM, several designs of the RD-10F engine were developed with additional injection (afterburning) of fuel behind the turbine - into the jet nozzle, which made it possible to increase the engine thrust at the start by 20 .. .25% and 60...100% at maximum flight speed. In 1946-49. RD-10A / RD-10F engines were produced at the Ufa plant No26 (now OAO Ufa MPO). In 1946, 59 engines were produced, in 1947 - 447, in 1948 - 833.
                        All the best.
                      2. +3
                        2 August 2019 18: 55
                        [quote = Per se.] it turns out, according to the first Su-9, not only the layout was general. [quote] In 1945, the Design Bureau of V. Ya. Klimov began introducing into production the captured German turbojet engine JUMO-004 under the index RD-10.
                        [/ Quote]
                        The engines were German, it is written in a branch and I did not stop there. The glider was not a continuation of Me.262.
                      3. +2
                        2 August 2019 19: 07
                        Just two diagrams.



          2. -2
            2 August 2019 15: 57
            you either do not know or are lying.
            would open at least wikipedia ...
            Yes, in the USSR, independent work was carried out on the subject of jet aircraft, but because of problems with the engines, things did not go far and trophies came here :)))
            the first SU 9 is not something that has in common with Messer, he is essentially a COPY !!!! engines in general TROPHY and not made by yourself !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
            everything is copied there, but with its own tweaks (corrections, improvements, etc.)! but it doesn’t change the essence of the matter, but the German engines were generally German !!!
            if there is a brain, then you can understand what's what: in December 45, a draft sketch was approved !!! (Before that they did their job, but then they got trophies and specifically the first SU 9 - copied, you can inflate your cheeks as much as you like, but the reality does not change)
            1. 0
              2 August 2019 16: 29
              Quote: Topgun
              you either do not know or are lying.
              would open at least wikipedia ...

              the first SU 9 is not something that has in common with Messer, he is essentially a COPY !!!!

              everything is copied there

              if there is a brain, then you can understand what's what

              Yes, if there is, then you can understand, but this does not apply to "Vasya Pupkin" - it is trying to replace its missing brain with "Wikipedia." :) Malcheg, go to study before your parents put you in the corner for two marks. It's too early for you to talk about aviation.
      4. +1
        1 August 2019 22: 57
        thanks, Oleg, an article to think about, good!
      5. +1
        2 August 2019 23: 05
        This is a rewarding experience. For others
    2. The comment was deleted.
  5. +2
    1 August 2019 18: 27
    As a teenager, I read Fedorovsky’s book for a long time ** Sturmfogel * without a swastika *. Just about the creation of this aircraft, and how our intelligence was against this creation. Not documented, of course, but entertaining! But in general, these are the first steps of jet aviation!
  6. +17
    1 August 2019 18: 28
    Something like that is not very clear. And what about the article? About the fact that the Fritz horseradish fighter did in those years? Dope. Probably the article was written by a representative of a new generation.
  7. +17
    1 August 2019 18: 30
    And it seems that the facts are reliable in the article, and good photos, but the impression of the article - as if Facebook had read. Here the author surpassed himself.
  8. gel
    +1
    1 August 2019 18: 32
    The reactive henkel was much more maneuverable and lighter, but it wasn’t accepted.
    Messer was a heavy interceptor and childhood illnesses in such a hurry.
    1. +1
      2 August 2019 00: 44
      In fact, those assignments issued by Messerschmidt involved the creation of a jet bomber. According to rumors, it was Goering who opposed this in every way and pulled the Me262 towards the interceptor.
      A bomber with such speed and even with a lack of horizontal maneuver would be a very serious splinter for any air defense of that time. He and 4 guns were not needed - and a pair of short-barrels for firing on the area would be enough.
      Climbing, acceleration, aiming on a gentle dive, bombing and again climbing. And try to get it at a speed of 800 or more
      1. +2
        2 August 2019 11: 50
        Quote: Vlad.by
        In fact, those assignments issued by Messerschmidt involved the creation of a jet bomber.

        Still, initially - a fighter.
        Creation pursuit aircraft under the designation P-1065 began in October 1938.

        The American term, yes, is apparently taken from a translated book, but not the point.
        For a long time they could not decide on the composition of the armament. Originally considered the option of three machine guns MG-151. Then we worked out the option of placing two 20-mm MG-151 cannons, MK-103 30 mm caliber guns in the fuselage and two machine guns in the wing. But he did not become final.

        Not a word about any weapon except the receiver. Not even a ground attack aircraft - too fast.
        It was then that Hitler "began to pull" him towards the Schnell-bomber. But "friends" sabotaged it completely.
        Galland's word:
        "" At the end of 1943, in conditions even more unfavorable than six months ago, Me.262 suddenly again interested the leadership. Its construction was part of the armaments program and was considered an extremely urgent measure.

        I did not know anything about (...) the idea of ​​using Me.262 not as a fighter when Hitler arrived (...). Of particular interest was the reactive Me.262. I stood next to Hitler when he suddenly asked Goering:
        “Could this plane carry bombs?”
        Göring answered him:
        - Yes, my Fuhrer, in principle, it can ... The payload will be no less than 500 kg, possibly even 1000 kg.

        In fact, the Me.262 had neither suspension devices, nor bombing devices, nor bombardment sights. According to his flight data and a review from the cockpit, he was not at all suitable for targeted bombing ...

        The Reichsmarschall, with whom Hitler had discussed this question earlier, would, of course, have to point out all this to him. I do not know if he did it. In any case, Hitler did not allow Messerschmitt or us to speak out, but he continued:

        - For several years now, I have been demanding from aviation to create a high-speed bomber, which, without ignoring enemy fighters, will confidently achieve its goal. In this plane, which appears to me as a fighter, I see a lightning bomber capable of repelling an invasion in its first and weakest stage ... None of you, of course, thought about it! "
  9. +7
    1 August 2019 18: 32
    Another MK 108 problem was frequent failures. Because of the cold, one of the four guns fired at high altitudes. Although anyone cares ... The gun had problems and more serious.
    ,, if the MK 108 was so bad, why was it installed on Messerschmitt Bf 109, Messerschmitt Bf 110, Focke-Wulf Fw 190, Heinkel He 162?
    The peak production in September-October of 1944 was 10 000 units per month. The gun received its first combat use at the end of the 1943 of the year on Messerschmitt Bf 110 fighters
    1. -10
      1 August 2019 18: 39
      if the 108 MK was so bad, why was it installed on Messerschmitt Bf 109, Messerschmitt Bf 110, Focke-Wulf Fw 190, Heinkel He 162?

      The answer is there was nothing else)))
      1. +12
        1 August 2019 18: 48
        Santa Fe (Oleg) Today, 19: 39

        ,,Well, yes recourse fishless fish and cancer laughing
        but if you hit, then you hit winked
        The British, like the tests, carried out 30-mm MK 108 guns.






      2. -2
        1 August 2019 21: 13
        The answer is there was nothing else)))

        You rip patterns to people. Information in this vein, and even with your powerful pressure will be perceived with hostility.
        But, as they say, drop by drop ....)))
      3. 0
        2 August 2019 11: 42
        was, the Germans made a lot of guns, but they were not enough
  10. The comment was deleted.
  11. +13
    1 August 2019 18: 34
    Kaptsov hellish troll)))).
    By the way, yak 120, 26/27/28 were quite arranged "for a messer". VK 1 is not at all a Soviet engine. Hooligan article, but I could wrap it up even more abruptly.))))
  12. +7
    1 August 2019 18: 38
    Yes, by the way, Oleg, what’s wrong with the Ta-183 Fokkevulf?
    1. gel
      +1
      1 August 2019 18: 41
      Yes, it didn’t seem to be very successful. Then the tank in Argentina at its base Pulke did well, but somehow it didn’t work out.
  13. +6
    1 August 2019 18: 38
    Strange, I read, in my opinion at Zemfirov-German pilots who flew on the "Schwalbe" (or on the "Sturmfogel"?) Did not complain about the operation of the cannons - they had some kind of sight that allowed them to shoot ahead. I don't know how true this is.
    1. +10
      1 August 2019 19: 34
      It was a Revi gyro-stabilized sight which (if you enter the dimensions of the attacked aircraft and tentatively the firing range in advance) automatically generated a lead ... By the way, regarding powerful guns for fighter jets, the Germans experimented with installing a 50 mm gun on Schwalba but ... they thought that attack at MAX speeds and short distances is preferable ..
      PS By the way, our MiG-15s during the B-29 attacks also preferred to shoot from 37 mm at close range ..
      1. +2
        1 August 2019 21: 14
        It was a gyro-stabilized sight of Revi
        - It was the GYROSCOPIC SIGHT of the EZ42. Revi had nothing to do with him.
    2. 0
      1 August 2019 20: 13
      Also faced with these facts.
  14. AAK
    +7
    1 August 2019 19: 01
    Yes, the 262nd was an "ugly duckling", but it was the first and, for its time, a rather biting duckling, until 1945, serially on a reagent, none of the allies (USSR, USA, Britain) even began to fight, but drag on (God forbid, but with such allies everything was possible) war at least until 1947? The Reich could also have quite normal fighters with acceptable engines and even missiles ... And for the fight against flying fortresses and Lancaster, the 262nd in 44-45 was quite suitable. By the way, two engines under the planes in the 50s - 60s were in the USSR on the Yak-25 interceptor ...
    1. +1
      1 August 2019 20: 14
      The Britons Gloucester Meteor had
    2. +1
      2 August 2019 09: 14
      AAK,
      Two engines under the planes say ...
      And what is only the Yak-25?
      Do you think that only here in the USSR?
      Take the Boeing-737, Airbus-320 all the family - the same scheme: engines under the planes? And why only the Yak-25, the French had a Voutur, a little later than our Yak-25 ...
  15. +22
    1 August 2019 19: 02
    How fervently, in a gopnichesky, in a non-Russian way! :)

    The Third Reich fighter jets had nothing to do with their descendants.

    ... except for the "real trifle" - turbojet engine.

    Me.262 Schwalbe was created under the influence of its predecessors and combined the characteristics of piston-era aircraft that were unacceptable to jet aircraft.

    With what did he combine these "signs"?
    First of all, it is noticeable in its wing with (...) small sweep.

    Yah? But "Starfighter", for some reason, does not notice this.
    After the war (...) None of the post-war fighters were (...) located under the planes of the engine nacelles (outside the main landing gear).

    Yah? :))) Yak-25, -27 and the rest are now a little surprised.
    With specific indicators of 220-230 kg / m2

    "Specific indicators" of what? In this case, this is called "wing loading". Although. maybe the author was referring to the load on the floor of the freight car ...
    "Schwalbe" was inferior in thrust to piston peers!

    Like all the first jet aircraft. For example, the serial "Ercomet". Its thrust rating is even lower than that of the 262.
    flameout and stop Jumo-004. For Schwalbe, this meant an engine fire.

    "Burning out" means cessation of burning, not fire.
    Even without an analysis of the geometry and efficiency of the propellers and the mass of the air they throw, it is known that for flight under normal conditions a thrust of at least a quarter of the take-off mass is required.

    Who "knows"? And what are the "usual conditions"? For example, the Il-86 only on takeoff has a thrust-to-weight ratio above 0,25, and in other modes it is much less. He, such a magician, creates "unusual conditions" for himself? I wonder how ...
    not having the necessary experience for this

    Interestingly, and who needed to gain experience? At the Atlanteans through the "Annenerbe"?
    of technologies

    There is no technology, but there is a motor. Interesting. :)
    the limit is 869 km / h (less than 0,8 M). When it is exceeded, “strange” effects begin, such as deafening blows, loss of control and pulling into an uncontrolled dive.

    ... like many piston fighters. Lightning, for example.

    To find out these moments and features of the flight at transonic speeds, it was necessary to carry out more aerodynamic tests, and not to rush to launch in the Messerschmitt-262 series.

    The Germans had the largest database of near- and supersonic flow around the end of the war. There was a mathematical apparatus. And all this, long afterwards, the winners on both sides of the ocean took advantage.
    The bottom edge of the nacelles hung half a meter above the ground: instead of an airplane, the Germans turned out a vacuum cleaner.

    The su-jet air intake (engine thrust 7+ tf) is 38 cm from the cover. The plane did not become a "vacuum cleaner" in spite of the cries of ill-wishers.
    It differed from German crafts by four times its large resource, while it did not require complex tricks using two types of fuel (take-off on gasoline, the main flight on kerosene / diesel fuel from Jumo-004).

    ... like the first state turbojet engines.
    And only the Germans decided to launch the models into mass production and send them into battle against the most advanced aircraft of the piston era.

    There was no choice. The British would have prided themselves on — even Gloucester Pioneer would have been put into action, not just Meteor.
    1. +10
      1 August 2019 21: 20
      take off on gasoline, the main flight - on kerosene
      - lied Kaptsov. Running on gasoline. Only. And take off on kerosene.
      In general, the article is a mixture of nonsense and jokes. Oleg, before writing, study the materiel of the description object.
      1. -5
        1 August 2019 21: 33
        In general, the article is a mixture of nonsense and jokes.

        Yes, good article
        The author just went too far with the pressure)))
        But komentov and views will collect a bunch .... Well, what else does the VO site need? I personally only for)))
        1. +10
          1 August 2019 21: 59
          Yes, such "articles" are becoming the norm. This is sad.
      2. 0
        1 August 2019 21: 49
        Quote: Dooplet11
        take off on gasoline, the main flight - on kerosene
        - lied Kaptsov. Running on gasoline. Only. And take off on kerosene.

        No, no, at first the Americans flew on the benzo-kerosene mixture.
        1. +2
          1 August 2019 21: 58
          Give you the Technical Description Yumo004? "I have them."
          1. +1
            1 August 2019 22: 01
            Quote: Dooplet11
            Give you the Technical Description Yumo004? "I have them."

            Come on, I have not. But what does "Yumo" have to do with it? This is not an American engine.
            1. +1
              1 August 2019 22: 08
              https://cloud.mail.ru/public/5SQq/PKuZhjmE8
              - This is something on Yumo.

              Kaptsov not about amersky engine, but about Yumo writes: "(takeoff on gasoline, main flight on kerosene / diesel fuel at Jumo-004)."
              1. +1
                1 August 2019 22: 13
                Quote: Dooplet11

                Kaptsov is not about the Amer’s engine

                ... and I'm talking about amersky engines. Kaptsov reproaches the Hans. and I wrote that they are not the only ones. Well, well, with your amendment - there would be more than one such. :)
                1. 0
                  2 August 2019 02: 01
                  Quote: Avis-bis
                  and I'm talking about amersky engines. Kaptsov reproaches the Hans. and I wrote that they are not the only ones. Well, well, with your amendment - there would be more than one such. :)

                  See the article at the link: https://topwar.ru/24652-amerikanskiy-reaktivnyy-samolet-bell-p-59a-airacomet.html
                  “At the end of the 1930s, American designers carried out rather “sluggish” experiments with combined motor-compressor installations. The result of the data was a unit based on a piston engine combined with an axial compressor. However, it was never put on the plane due to too much weight, cumbersome and too much fuel consumption.In order to somehow make up for lost time, the Americans turned to overseas experience.England provided assistance by providing drawings, technical documentation and several prototypes of Whittle turbojet engines.Under these engines, they immediately began to design an aircraft, which received the designation XP -59."
    2. -6
      1 August 2019 21: 26
      except for the "real trifle" - turbojet engine.

      Indeed, back in the 30s, Polikarpov hung two such engines under the wings of the I-15.
      With what did he combine these "signs"?

      Do you know why you used the swept wing? )))
      Yah? :))) Yak-25, -27 and the rest are now a little surprised.

      Aha-ahah - did they all land on unpaved airfields? ))))
      In Me.262 this was an indispensable condition.
      Specific indicators of “what?” In this case, this is called “specific load on the wing.” Although, maybe the author meant the load on the floor of a freight car ...

      He painted everything before this ...
      Like all first jet aircraft.

      Which in a couple of years have made up for lost time. Between the Yak-15 and MiG -15 abyss.
      The Germans had the largest database of near- and supersonic flow around the end of the war. There was a mathematical apparatus. And all this, long afterwards, the winners on both sides of the ocean took advantage.

      Ours handed over to Amers ALL technical documentation for the RD-180, but for some reason the Americans could not copy it, do you know why? )))
      The su-jet air intake (engine thrust 7+ tf) is 38 cm from the cover. The plane did not become a "vacuum cleaner" in spite of the cries of ill-wishers.

      I'll see how it takes off and lands on the GROUND airfield)))
      1. +6
        1 August 2019 21: 59
        Quote: lucul
        except for the "real trifle" - turbojet engine.

        Indeed, back in the 30s, Polikarpov hung two such engines under the wings of the I-15.

        Not Polikarpov, and not "such".
        Do you know why you used the swept wing? )))

        Where can I ... Enlighten.
        Aha-ahah - did they all land on unpaved airfields? ))))

        What does it have to do with it? It's about layout, not basing.

        In Me.262 this was an indispensable condition.

        Didn't see any mentions. But he could sit down and take off. The "vacuuming" of the turbojet engine is greatly exaggerated. For them, pebbles flying from under the wheels are more dangerous (if the OT is behind any wheel). And the pebbles fly to heights in meters.
        And Me.262 worked perfectly with the autobahns. Even the underground plants were located closer to them.
        He painted everything before this ...

        This does not give him the right to distort terminology for the sake of his illiteracy.
        Which in a couple of years have made up for lost time. Between the Yak-15 and MiG -15 abyss.

        AND?..
        Ours handed over to Amers ALL technical documentation for the RD-180, but for some reason the Americans could not copy it, do you know why? )))

        I know. And you can find out if you think a little. It's simple, believe me.
        But what does the Germans database on high-speed aerodynamics have to do with it?
        I'll see how it takes off and lands on the GROUND airfield)))

        Why would he need it? You can also look at the Lamborghini in fresh arable land.
        1. -7
          1 August 2019 22: 13
          Not Polikarpov, and not "such".

          But before Hans? ))
          Where can I ... Enlighten.

          Do not pretend - for high speeds.
          e met mentions. But he could sit down and take off. The "vacuuming" of the turbojet engine is greatly exaggerated. For them, pebbles flying from under the wheels are more dangerous (if the OT is behind any wheel). And the pebbles fly to heights in meters.
          And Me.262 worked perfectly with the autobahns. Even the underground plants were located closer to them.

          Are you kidding me ?????????????
          Any concreted airfield is the number one goal for enemy aviation. And take-off from the ground is an extremely vital necessity for Me.262.

          I know. And you can find out if you think a little

          And what can I think - the level of metal science does not allow.
          And why should he?

          Here I am in the draft - you claim that - "The air intake of the su-jet (engine thrust 7+ tf) is 38 cm from the cover."
          Accordingly, when taking off from a dirt airfield, it will not take off. The author pointed out one of the drawbacks of Me.262 - the location of the engines is too low for takeoff from unpaved airfields.
          Now everyone knows that the reagents should take off and land ONLY on the concrete runway, and then they did not know about it.
          How can one misunderstand this, it doesn’t fit in my head .....
          1. +6
            1 August 2019 23: 03
            Quote: lucul
            Not Polikarpov, and not "such".

            But before Hans? ))

            Which ones? And what does this experimental I-15 have to do with it?
            Do not pretend - for high speeds.

            Come on? :) There are at least two more options for using sweep.
            Any concreted airfield is the number one goal for enemy aviation. And take-off from the ground is an extremely vital necessity for Me.262.

            I say that I have not met any mention of either the fact that he was required to work with the GVPP, or refuting it. Show me either one or the other. I repeat - in principle, the Me.262 could work from the ground - the "vacuum" capacity of the turbojet engine is greatly exaggerated.
            And what can I think - the level of metal science does not allow.

            Past. Second approach.
            Here I am in the draft - you claim that - "The air intake of the su-jet (engine thrust 7+ tf) is 38 cm from the cover."
            Accordingly, when taking off from a dirt airfield, it will not take off

            From the ground - no, but nobody prepared him for this. And the thrust (and therefore the suction force) is an order of magnitude higher.

            The author pointed out one of the drawbacks of Me.262 - the location of the engines is too low for takeoff from unpaved airfields.

            Afftyr did not indicate "too normal" engine position. At what height does it start for the thrust that Yumo-004 produces? From 51 cm? Or from 1,09 meters?
            Now everyone knows that the reagents should take off and land ONLY on the concrete runway, and then they did not know about it.

            Didn't know that a rarefaction is formed around the turbojet engine air intake and, consequently, a "sucking" force? Don't judge others by yourself.
        2. +1
          3 August 2019 08: 27
          No dirt on Lamb! Perfectly on fresh arable land goes, not every tracked tank can laughing
          1. +3
            3 August 2019 08: 32
            Quote: vadimtt
            No dirt on Lamb! Perfectly on fresh arable land goes, not every tracked tank can laughing

            Five points, pricked. :) I am aware that they were originally engaged in tarkters, but you understood what I mean. :)
            But they pinned up nobly, take off my hat! :)
            1. 0
              3 August 2019 12: 59
              Mitsubishi generally produced sewing machines. A saying goes to the Far East: we don’t need a female one (well, you understand), we bought Mitsubishi.
              1. +1
                3 August 2019 13: 21
                Quote: phair
                Mitsubishi generally produced sewing machines.

                Japs generally have a peculiar picture with corporations - in them they really can produce everything from spoons to aerospace technology. Even specifically, some kind of word is to designate this type of corporation.
                Well, if it comes down, then in other countries similar things happened. Glider "Mosquito", for example, was made for a considerable part in furniture factories, and WALLS - in bed workshops.
    3. 0
      2 August 2019 02: 40
      Quote: Avis-bis
      Schwalbe "inferior in thrust to piston peers!

      Like all the first jet aircraft. For example, the serial "Ercomet". Its thrust rating is even lower than that of the 262.
      Ma-and-a-vermillion question: what balance was at the height of combat use? As I understand it, there was nothing to do on the 262nd, and it was created against bombers ...
      1. 0
        2 August 2019 09: 19
        Quote: Simargl
        What was the balance at the height of combat use?

        Balance of what?
        As I understand it, there was nothing to do on the 262nd, and it was created against bombers ...

        Right. On both counts.
        1. 0
          2 August 2019 17: 43
          Quote: Avis-bis
          Balance of what?
          Engine thrust at the height of application
          And, if we are already comparing the AFFtyr Me.262 with the P-47D, then them.

          A couple more inaccuracies (did he specifically do this?)
          Quote: Brechopedia
          In this regard, although the BMW-003 engine was almost completely redesigned (the new version was designated BMW-003A), it was decided to abandon it in favor of the Jumo-004 with a thrust of 1050 kg.

          Quote: P-47D from the prosthetics
          Wing loading: 315,9 kg / m²
          1. 0
            3 August 2019 08: 37
            Quote: Simargl
            Quote: Avis-bis
            Balance of what?
            Engine thrust at the height of application

            I didn't understand again. The ratio of thrust-to-weight ratio between 262 and "Tander"?
            did he do it on purpose?

            No, it seems to be innate.
            1. 0
              3 August 2019 18: 04
              Quote: Avis-bis
              The ratio of thrust-to-weight ratio between 262 and "Tander"?
              Only not by engine power, but by propeller / turbojet thrust. At an altitude (how much is there? 6-8 km?) Of application (clash).
              1. 0
                4 August 2019 11: 01
                Quote: Simargl
                not by engine power

                What does "engine power" have to do with it?
                At an altitude (how much is there? 6-8 km?) Of application (clash).

                I don’t have these data, but I won’t even count and search - here they have about parity. The drop in thrust with increasing height will be approximately the same for turbo-charged engines and for turbojet engines.
    4. +1
      2 August 2019 05: 32
      the limit is 869 km / h (less than 0,8 M). When it is exceeded, “strange” effects begin, such as deafening blows, loss of control and pulling into an uncontrolled dive.

      ... like many piston fighters. Lightning, for example

      These strange effects in hydrodynamics are called crisis waves, or simply shock waves. Oleg, starting to write "for aviation", could have avoided such definitions
      1. +2
        2 August 2019 09: 32
        Quote: Ka-52

        These strange effects in hydrodynamics

        In aerodynamics. No one has yet come close to the speed of sound in water. And there is nothing strange about them. At first they were incomprehensible and dangerous, and then they became simply dangerous and learned to cope with them.
        called a wave of crisis or for a simple shock wave

        Shocking compaction is only an external manifestation of a wave crisis. :) The wave crisis is a process. And the resulting shock waves are physical objects. The process leading to an increase in overall resistance due to the appearance of wave resistance.
        But in the case of lightning, it was not the shock waves that became the problem - it was far from such speeds. His blood was spoiled by the shift of focus back during a wave crisis - the plane was being pulled into a dive.
  16. +11
    1 August 2019 19: 06
    262 was so bad that the question was about putting it into service of our Air Force and this after the victory.
  17. +3
    1 August 2019 19: 10
    It should be mentioned that Hitler was categorically opposed to the Me-262 being a fighter, he saw him as a high-speed and invulnerable bomber for air defense, but apparently the Reich leadership was full of "pests".
  18. +20
    1 August 2019 19: 23
    If we talk about shame and degradation, then only Kaptsova as an author. Even today, when the level of site publications is not up to the mark, it is very difficult to find so much incompetence, ignorance, untruth and aplomb in one place.
    Moreover, the reader’s deception begins with the first words.
    The Third Reich fighter jets had nothing to do with their descendants.
    Firstly, all jet fighters of all times have one fundamental commonality - the use of the principle of jet propulsion and the laws of aerodynamics. Ignorance of this moment is a vivid example of the ignorance of the author.
    If we consider the first jets of all countries from the point of view of aerodynamics, the application of the theory and practice of flight to the creation of an aircraft, then naturally they are very different from their descendants, since they were the FIRST on an unknown path. After all, it would never occur to anyone to say that the plane of one of the pioneers of the Russian aircraft industry, Prince Kudashev, is a sign of shame and degradation against the background of his descendants like I-16, with which he has nothing to do.

    After all, these aircraft were also the first on the thorny path of man into the sky.
    1. +25
      1 August 2019 19: 38
      The second sentence of the article.
      Schwalbe was created under the influence of its predecessors and combined the characteristics of piston-era aircraft unacceptable to jet aircraft
      The author, you will be obviously extremely surprised, but all the first jet aircraft were created under the influence of their predecessors and had the signs of a piston era aircraft.

      This is the first fighter of the Soviet Air Force - the Yak-15, adopted for service in 1947.
      It is a Yak-3, on which instead of a piston VK-107A a turbojet RD-10 is installed.
      At the same time, the RD-10 is a Jumo-004 made in the USSR - a "whistle" with a "Me-262" !!!
      Moreover, this "whistle", the launch of which, according to the author, was a gamble, was mass-produced in the USSR until 1953 and was operated on the first Soviet jet fighters of the A.S. Yakovlev Design Bureau (Yak-15, Yak-17, Yak-19 ), OKB S.A. Lavochkin ("150", "152", "156", etc.), OKB P.O. Sukhoi (Su-9).
      1. +18
        1 August 2019 19: 54
        Ubermensh built a "fighter of the future", not having for this the necessary experience and technology.
        This phrase is the quintessence of the narrow-mindedness and incompetence of the author, concentrated in the article.
        And who in 1938, when the Me-262 began to be created, had the experience and technology of building jet aircraft? But what then are the people who copied the solutions. incorporated in this plane after a half dozen years?
        I see further commenting on the article as unnecessary, because almost every phrase is concentrated or stupidity, or ignorance.
        1. -4
          1 August 2019 21: 19
          And who in the 1938 year, when the Me-262 began to be created, had the experience and technology of building jet aircraft?


          The author is right in the sense that in the 1944 year from the PX it was extremely difficult to have a military fighter jet
          neither the States nor Britain tried to have it.
          The refreshed pistons did the job quite well.
          1. +6
            1 August 2019 22: 32
            Quote: Olezhek

            The author is right in the sense that in the 1944 year from the PX it was extremely difficult to have a military fighter jet
            neither the States nor Britain tried to have it.

            Aass ??? "Didn't you try" this is the first flight of Erkome in 1942 or 100 serial Erkomet by 1944? Or is this the first flight of the Meteor in 1943? "Didn't try" ...
          2. +8
            1 August 2019 23: 21
            The author is right in the sense that in 1944 it was extremely difficult for the United States or Britain to have a military jet fighter from the PX.
            Have you decided to compete in ignorance with the author?

            On May 15, 1941, the first English jet aircraft, Gloucester E.17 / 28 Pioneer, made its first 38-minute flight.
            1. +5
              1 August 2019 23: 34

              P-59A Airacomet. USA. The plane first flew in the photo on October 1, 1942.
    2. -11
      1 August 2019 21: 42
      Moreover, the reader’s deception begins with the first words.
      The Third Reich fighter jets had nothing to do with their descendants.

      C'mon, a lot of people have a stereotyped conviction - Me.262 was the best fighter of the Second World War, the author simply dispelled this myth that many did not like ....
      1. +10
        1 August 2019 21: 50
        The template belief that Me.262 was the best fighter of the Second World War could be affirmed only in the absence of the ability to think independently and reading of authors such as Kaptsov.
        And with the help of illiterate and pointless writing, myths are not dispelled.
    3. 0
      5 August 2019 20: 55
      Quote: Undecim
      plane of one of the pioneers of Russian aircraft industry Prince Kudashev


      The difference is that Kudashev’s planes weren’t adopted and not built in series.
  19. +11
    1 August 2019 19: 27
    << The first domestic serial turbojet engine VK-1 (RD-45) >> .. the author and you know what it is .. nee Rolls Royzovsky turbojet engine .. acquired in obscure ways in Britain ... and before that, all the first generation jet fighters of the Country of Soviets flew precisely on the `` whistles '' of Yumo and BMW ... and already on the basis of the Anglov turbojet engine, the history of the Soviet turbojet engine began ???
    1. +6
      1 August 2019 19: 43
      The license for "Nin" and "Derwent" was bought not by muddy ways, but quite officially.
      1. +1
        1 August 2019 21: 29
        Bk1 and rd500 were unlicensed copies.
        1. +1
          2 August 2019 12: 58
          Quote: Corn
          Bk1 and rd500 were unlicensed copies.


          Right.
          They were sold and prescribed in the contract, so that they would not be installed on military aircraft ... so naive :)
          In 1958, during a visit to Beijing, Whitney Straight, later chairman of the board of directors of Rolls-Royce, discovered that this engine had been copied, first under the designation RD-45, and then, after some refinement, produced under the designation VK- 1. Because the engine was copied without a license, Rolls-Royce later tried to recover £207 million in license fees, but without success.
      2. 0
        2 August 2019 20: 44
        To sell to the country - about] by Sir Winnie, who was speaking at a Fulton speech ... well, clearly not friendly ... the newest turbojet engine ... this is how to sell Ukr prototypes of the Su-57 or Armata today ... and what, the contract is the same. !!!
        1. +1
          3 August 2019 13: 29
          Quote: WapentakeLokki
          To sell to the country - about] by Sir Winnie, who was speaking at a Fulton speech ... well, clearly not friendly ... the newest turbojet engine ... this is how to sell Ukr prototypes of the Su-57 or Armata today ... and what, the contract is the same. !!!

          At the time of the "Fulton speech" Churchill was a private person, he could joke about as he liked. Great Britain needed money.
    2. +4
      1 August 2019 20: 21
      definitely cloudy)))
      “An interesting episode of 46, when, as part of the Soviet delegation, Artyom Ivanovich visited the Rolls-Royce company. It was about the purchase of several copies of promising jet engines Nene and Dervent. The contract was drawn up, but the head of the company hesitated whether to sign it. Then Mikoyan invited him to play a game of billiards and sign a deal if he lost. So Artem Ivanovich "won" for the country what was then massively produced under the RD-45 and VK-1 indexes and installed on MiG-15, MiG-17 fighters and other combat aircraft "
      1. +3
        1 August 2019 20: 46
        They like to quote this bike and immediately refute
      2. 0
        1 August 2019 21: 33
        Then Mikoyan invited him to play a game of billiards and sign a deal in case of loss.
        ... well, at least they didn’t hack into a fool.
        In general, such decisions about the continuation of modern dual-use products are made by politicians, but not in private.
    3. -5
      1 August 2019 21: 45
      the author and you know what it is ..in girlhood Rolls Roizovsky TRD

      This somehow cancels the fact that
      The first domestic serial turbojet engine VK-1 (RD-45) >>

      ??
    4. +3
      1 August 2019 21: 52
      The first turbojet engine of the USSR with a thrust of 500 kgs (RD-1) began to be developed by A.M. Cradle in 1938, in 1941 his readiness was estimated at 70%. In 1943-44, the work on the turbojet engine was resumed, the thrust was brought up to 750 kgf. In 1943-44, Lavochkin (La-WFD) and Gudkov (GU-WFD) designed the aircraft for Lulka’s engines. Work on the RD-1 ceased at the end of the war, as unpromising. The cradle has created a whole family of aircraft engines.
  20. +5
    1 August 2019 19: 41
    And what to expect if the decision to launch Me.262 in a series was made under the impression of the only A. Galland's familiarization flight on the prototype. Moreover, the planned training air battle with FW.190 (which could demonstrate the dubious combat effectiveness of the reagent) did not take place, because Galland caused an engine fire, manipulating the ore too sharply.
    Hitler, a high-speed bomber, saw the real potential of Me.262. Such a bomber, capable of breaking away from fighters, would be well suited for targeted attacks on important objects (for example, floating piers in Normandy), especially with the use of guided bombs. But, the Fuhrer’s order to remake Me.262 into a bomber ... was simply sabotaged by Galland, who wanted a miracle fighter, and Speer, who was too lazy to increase the production of conventional fighters.
  21. +6
    1 August 2019 19: 58
    Wow! Kaptsov got tired of writing about the line fleet and All Big Guns, and he switched to aviation. And until the very end of the article, I could not get rid of the deja vu that this style reminds me of someone. Straight in Bulgakov's "categorical and confident".
  22. +2
    1 August 2019 20: 09
    "Thanks to the continuous evolution and replacement of Wellands with turbojet engines of a new generation, Meteora remained in service until the mid-50s."

    until the 80s they were exploited
  23. +6
    1 August 2019 20: 19
    the author forgot to write that the speed of the British miracle of the meteor was 660 km per hour, as against the German, nothing at all, well, and the problems were probably about the same, also that the author forgot about our airplanes flying on a jet humo and a BMW
  24. +11
    1 August 2019 20: 22
    Me.262 fighter jet: shame and degradation of the Luftwaffe

    Skipping such articles is a shame and degradation of VO ...
    1. -5
      1 August 2019 21: 46
      Skipping such articles is a shame and degradation of VO

      Tearing up a pattern? )))
      1. +8
        1 August 2019 22: 28
        Tearing up a pattern? )))

        The author, you are such pereloginelis, by the way, do not tell me when to wait for your next "masterpieces" in the form - "Vostok-1, an unsuccessful rocket to launch a man" ?
  25. +11
    1 August 2019 20: 23
    Yes, the author is clearly trying to form an alternative history of aviation :). God bless him. But the question is - where does the reaction of a reputable resource look? Such a low level of publications is not peculiar to topwar.ru.
    1. -6
      1 August 2019 21: 47
      Yes, the author is clearly trying to form an alternative history of aviation :). God bless him. But the question is - where does the reaction of a reputable resource look? Such a low level of publications is not peculiar to topwar.ru.

      Not all oppas were noted yet, not all ....)))
  26. +7
    1 August 2019 20: 25
    During the battles on the Me.262 fighter modifications, about 150 enemy aircraft were shot down with about 100 own losses. And this is taking into account the fact that by this time, at best, retrained pilots from transport and bomber aviation were at the "helm". Not bad for a first experiment. At least for all the problems the Me.262 showed that the time of the "pistons" had passed.
    1. -3
      1 August 2019 21: 17
      During fights on fighter modifications Me.262, about 150 enemy aircraft were shot down with their own losses about 100 vehicles. And with that in mind


      And this taking into account the fact that a whole lot of resources were put on this wunderwafel ...

      At least for all the problems the Me.262 showed that the time of the "pistons" had passed.


      Somehow unconvincing
  27. +11
    1 August 2019 20: 58
    That's stupid Germans! They did not know such elementary things that are obvious at the end of the second decade of the next century! Mediocrity is simple! laughing
    And by the way: "The first domestic serial turbojet engine VK-1 (RD-45) exhaled 2,6 tons of flame and fire with a dry weight of 872 kg." was not the first. The first were copies of the same BMW-003 and Jumo-004, which were successfully installed on such aircraft as the MiG-9 (by the way, a redan scheme tested by the Germans). And at the same time I will inform you that the RD-45 is a copy of the English "nina", the same as the RD-10 and RD-20 copies of German engines. And finally: It was the German studies of swept wings that formed the basis for further work in this direction. And German studies of the reverse-swept wing continued successfully in the USSR after the war.
  28. +7
    1 August 2019 21: 06
    I read the article ... Laugh or cry? The Germans were the first to build serial jet aircraft, jet engines. No one could prompt or advise on this issue, since no one had such knowledge. After the war, ALL victorious countries used both German developments and German aircraft, since no one had anything like that created by the Germans. the author reads too much literature in the style of "Popadantsy". It is sad that the author uses fantasy materials from "Popadantsy" in his opuses to describe real historical processes.
    Compare MiG15-17 with Me.262? So the MiG-15 was built 5 years after the war, taking German developments as a basis!
  29. +12
    1 August 2019 21: 10
    Maybe better about battleships? BUT? There at least it turned out funny ...
    1. +12
      1 August 2019 22: 03
      Quote: Taoist
      Maybe better about battleships? BUT? There at least it turned out funny ...

      "Dear editor, maybe it's better about the reactor?
      About the favorite moon tractor. It’s impossible for a year in a row:
      They scare them with plates, they say, mean ones fly ... ".
      © BCB

      :)
  30. +2
    1 August 2019 21: 34
    A normal article is Kaptsov-style trolling, many are still underway.
  31. +9
    1 August 2019 21: 46
    "Nobody tried to build" Meteora "in thousands of pieces." ////
    -----
    And how many have they built? belay
    4000 pieces. It was built by thousands of them.
    Because, it was a successful effective air defense interceptor.
    If the Germans used their Me-262 also to intercept the bombers,
    not for air battles, and their first jet would be effective.
    ---
    The article is a rough fit of facts to clumsy conclusions negative
    1. -7
      1 August 2019 22: 44
      4000 pieces - how many of them were first modified during the war years

      a, all 20, then another 100
  32. +7
    1 August 2019 22: 16
    Good evening, Oleg!

    I have a few simple questions for you:

    1. Does the lifting force of the wing, in addition to the area, also depend on the shape of the wing and the flow velocity, how exactly the lifting force of the wing R-47 and Me-262

    2. how to recalculate the thrust-to-weight ratio of a screw machine and a reactive one in a single system of traction power using the example of R-47 and Me-262

    3.from what features of the wing depends on the stall and related effects on the example of R-47 and Me-262

    cope, let's talk about guns and sights)
  33. +10
    1 August 2019 22: 18
    To be honest, I was initially struck and intrigued by the "paradoxical title" of the Article! wassat
    Since I myself (for quite a long time of my life was interested in aviation, aircraft engineering, aircraft engine building and aircraft modeling, civil operation and combat use, trends and the history of the development of structures and aerodynamic schemes of aircraft) I consider the Me-262 not a "shame", but the German herald of the jet era military aviation (I can say the same about the post-war significance of the samples and theoretical developments of German V-1 and V-2 missiles, guided anti-aircraft missiles, radio-controlled gliding bombs, acoustic homing torpedoes and bottom mines with a multiplicity device, "electric" submarines of the XXI project and the architecture of the outer hull of the submarine engineer Walter optimized for high-speed diving (it became widespread after testing the experimental American nuclear submarine "Albacor"), "Sturmgever", the concept of a "single machine gun", "Faustpatronov", "Springmin", development of antennas farther radio communications, ... in their fields of military equipment and weapons, and that's just offhand)! Yes

    In one breath, I read the author's "discoveries" that surprised me and did not lose their "paradoxical intrigue" until the very end, and looked at the photographs. I liked the photos for the Article (especially the "shark" angle of "Schwalbe" from the nose - "full face"!), And the "author's discoveries" themselves seemed to me rather controversial, although they skillfully "interspersed" with reliable facts. winked
    It also became clear to me that about the post-war, low-wing planes with a straight wing, jet twin-engine fighter-bomber Su-9 and Su-11 fighter of the Sukhoi Design Bureau, "with nacelles under the planes (outside the landing gear)" the author of the article for some reason never heard or not read (as well as about the later Yak-25-Yak-28 KB Yakovlev, almost the same layout, with spaced "engine nacelles", but already a midplane with a swept wing and a bicycle layout of the main landing gear racks ..), or they never did not "fit into the outline of the author's categorical narrative" ?! wink
    I admit, the non-trivial Author of the Article achieved the main goal of any "writer" with his shocking "kunstyuk" with the "paradoxical" name of the "opus" he attracted me to his page "on a visit", as a "reader", amused and provoked me as not indifferent to achievements aviation graphomaniac "commentator"! Yes hi
    1. +2
      2 August 2019 13: 21
      Quote: pishchak
      the "paradoxical" title of the "opus" attracted me to his page "to visit", as a "reader", amused and provoked

      I was attracted too. And the network today is more urgent than reading this garbage. What a shame it is when this is an achievement of the aviation industry, and not a shame for the Luftwaffe. There were elements of degradation there (which is why I "took a bite" to read this article), but not the Luftwaffe and not the aviation industry. But the author does not pay me money - I will not teach him wits.
  34. +6
    1 August 2019 22: 28
    The colloquial paronym "fat" is jarring. This illiterate derivative of the "pole" antonym, alas, is so ingrained.
  35. mvg
    +5
    1 August 2019 22: 32
    Minus. Although, usually I read Oleg’s articles ... Too biased. As some kind of ordering.
    1. +2
      2 August 2019 03: 04
      Quote: mvg
      As some kind of ordering.
      Hurray patriots captured.
  36. +4
    2 August 2019 00: 20
    Me.262 Schwalbe was created under the influence of its predecessors and combined the characteristics of piston-era aircraft that were unacceptable to jet aircraft. First of all, it is noticeable in its wing with a thick profile and low sweep.

    First, who told you that in 1943, for a generally subsonic airplane, the wing sweep along the leading edge of 18º35 'is too small?
    Second, what is meant by a "thick profile" (again, in relation to the experience of designing aircraft in 1943)?
    That is, the point is not that the Schwalbe was a wonderful-plane-of-all-times-and-peoples. It was well thought out for THAT level of technology development (which today "never rolls" - so what ?!).
  37. +2
    2 August 2019 00: 32
    After the war, no one used the technical solutions inherent in the construction of Me.262.

    Aha
    What about the Su-11? [media = https: //ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Su-11_ (1947)]
  38. +2
    2 August 2019 00: 35
    None of the post-war fighters had <...> placed under the planes of the engine nacelles (outside the main landing gear).

    Yeah! What about Yaki-25 and -28?
    You, my friend, from where did you parachute into "aviation thought"? - What pig farm?
  39. -5
    2 August 2019 04: 24
    Oleg took the favorite toy from the child laughing The reaction is violent, to say the least!
    Great article
  40. +5
    2 August 2019 06: 43
    understandably. Oleg got to me262 in Wartander, well, or in WoP. and he was naturally torn one place ...
    even disassembling this opus makes no sense, the number of blunders just rolls over. as always actually.
  41. The comment was deleted.
  42. +3
    2 August 2019 07: 30
    Well, compare with our first fighter jets with a turbojet engine - such as the Yak-15, why put pictures from the MiG-17?
  43. +8
    2 August 2019 08: 09
    Kaptsov, VO, 01.08.2019/XNUMX/XNUMX:
    Me.262 fighter jet: shame and degradation of the Luftwaffe
    ...
    First of all, it is noticeable in its wing. thick profile and low sweep.
    ...
    After the war nobody used the technical solutions inherent in the construction of Me.262.
    ...
    "Whistle", inferior in terms of thrust-weight ratio, accelerating qualities and maneuverability to piston fighters.

    M.B. Gurevich, "Messerschmitt Me-262 jet fighter", TVF, 1946:




    As you can see, the assessments of the NKAP specialists, who disassembled and investigated the Me-262 after the war "to a screw," strongly differ from the assessments of the "specialist" Oleg Kaptsov.
  44. +6
    2 August 2019 09: 10
    Here you are all Kaptsova poison for amateur owls interference on the globe and I'm glad. After all, he switched to flyers, which means naval topics will not receive a portion of delirium.
  45. +3
    2 August 2019 09: 46
    Yes, somehow sad to read this.
    The author forgot that there was the Me-110, which differed from the Me-109 in exactly the same, 2 engines.
    The author forgot that the differences between the Me-110 and 109 were in use.
    Regarding the success / failure of the layout - I recall the IL-28, which was behind the fence - a whole regiment.
    Therefore, the expression: "... shit on the fan ..." is the most accurate, as a description of this article.
    1. +1
      2 August 2019 10: 27
      In fairness, the IL-28 is a bomber, for them this is the norm and, even, good.
  46. 0
    2 August 2019 10: 20
    Bullshit article. Messer was not bad, he was just an airplane of his time, no worse and no better than his opponents. Moreover, it is necessary to compare with airplanes "year after year", tk. the technique was improved not by the years, but by the hour. And the motors too.
    As for the gun, well, a kind of compromise solution, exchanged caliber and power for ballistics and weight. As I understand it, NURSs showed themselves well, if they hit, they hit.

    In general, the history of this aircraft and its application experience are well disclosed from other sources, the author was apparently bored, decided to write about something ...., the desire itself is commendable, the implementation is not very.
  47. 0
    2 August 2019 10: 45
    And the author heard about the Su-9 ??? first ...
  48. +4
    2 August 2019 10: 52
    Bad article.
  49. 0
    2 August 2019 11: 22
    Quote: Narak-zempo
    Wow! Kaptsov got tired of writing about the line fleet and All Big Guns, and he switched to aviation. And until the very end of the article, I could not get rid of the deja vu that this style reminds me of someone. Straight in Bulgakov's "categorical and confident".

    Talent is like a thoroughbred horse, you need to learn how to manage it, and if you pull the motive in all directions, the horse will turn into a nag. M. Gorky.
  50. 0
    2 August 2019 12: 13
    An article to call? After all, it is full of distortions. And in general, the Germans immediately had Su 35 with F 15 succeed? And about the small sweep in general, the force, in which year did you figure out that at a speed of over 900 km the plane may not come out of the peak with a direct wing? And articles about the fleet were interesting, especially early ones.
  51. +5
    2 August 2019 12: 16
    Terrible nonsense.
  52. +1
    2 August 2019 13: 09
    I read it with interest, but with some kind of ambivalent feeling. Well, it’s too straightforward and one sided. It seems that Kaptsov has a deep personal dislike for this German first-born of combat jet aviation. Then I went through the comments and gleaned many times more information along with links, moreover, versatile about the Me.262 and its peers. Here you can draw an analogy, the first results of German engineers on the path of creating and combat use of jet aircraft (mistakes, incidents and stupid decisions), and your results Oleg in writing the first article about aviation. Working in a direction unknown to you before is always fraught with difficulties.
  53. +1
    2 August 2019 13: 18
    Why should the Me 262 be compared with the MiG 17? Why not with the MiG 9? Let the author open the Wiki.
    In addition, Hitler saw the Me 262, first of all, as a high-speed attack aircraft. And he was furious when he found out that they were quietly creating just a fighter. During the landing of the Anglo-Saxons in Normandy, such attack aircraft could have decided the fate of the operation in the other direction. If I were him, I would send these guys to Himmler to find out the motives for such a scam. And he behaved like a democrat. There was nothing for anyone. That's why I lost. It was necessary to ask more strictly for everything.
  54. +9
    2 August 2019 13: 20
    Article from the series: nonsense on nonsense, nonsense drives...
    Resource degradation.
  55. +2
    2 August 2019 14: 07
    When reading the text, you can guess the author's name based on the style.
    The Germans were the FIRST and, accordingly, hit their stride in finding optimal solutions. IMHO, condemning them for this is not very smart....
  56. +3
    2 August 2019 15: 59
    The interest of the Germans in jet engines was explained by the deplorable state of their aircraft manufacturing and engine-building industries. In which it was easier to run such crafts, than to create your own analogue of "Griffin" or "Double Wasp."


    The author forgets that due to the ban on the development of aircraft engines in Germany, German aircraft engine building before WWII lagged behind what the British and Americans had achieved by that time. As for the analogues of the “Griffin” or “Double Wasp”, by 1941 the Germans had 2 analogues of the “Griffin” at once - this is the DB-608 with a displacement of 36,6 liters / take-off power 1650 hp, altitude of the first variant 5200 meters / and DB-603 with a displacement of 44,5 liters. The DB-608 was supposed to replace the DB-601 engines, but due to the fact that the transition to the production of a new engine would lead to a decrease in the number of aircraft engines produced in Germany, in which Germany lagged even behind BI throughout WWII:



    The Germans had to compromise and release the DB-601 based on the DB-605. Serial production of DB-603 - in total, excluding 1945 / data for this year was not preserved / produced 8758 units, the Germans were forced to start at the end of 1941, when it became clear that the more promising 24-cylinder Jumo-222 was still not completed. The Germans developed analogues of Double Wasp even before the war. On the basis of the 14-cylinder BMW-139, the development of the 18-cylinder BMW-140 was carried out. But after the merger of the Bramo BMW companies in 1939, it was decided to develop an 14-cylinder BMW-801 on the basis of the new, more promising 18-cylinder BMW-802. In 1942, the development of the BMW-802 was abandoned in favor of the Jumo-1942, which was completed by the end of 222; the Germans produced only 289 of these engines. The Germans' great interest in turbojet engines was justified because it would allow them, even with a smaller number of aircraft produced, to achieve a serious advantage over any enemy aircraft with piston engines. But for the production of Jumo-004, in addition to the design flaw of this engine, the Germans were faced with a lack of heat-resistant materials, for example nickel. To produce one Jumo-004 engine, it was necessary to use 88 kg. nickel, the Germans could afford no more than 28 kg. The same applied to molybdenum, chromium, copper and God knows what else.

    In addition to the DB-608 and DB-603, the Jumo-213 is an analogue of the Griffin, but this engine was mass-produced in the amount of 9163 units.

    In order not to die in the first seconds after takeoff, an experienced ace who had completed a retraining course and was familiar with all the features of the Schwalbe had to be in the cockpit of the Me.262.


    This also happened in other countries during the development of fundamentally new types of aircraft and aircraft engines. The Americans, while developing their sophisticated P-47 with a piston engine, killed 41 aircraft and 13 pilots.
  57. +1
    2 August 2019 18: 09
    Indeed, the firstborn, hence we dance. But here the Germans made a mistake. They should continue to rivet “Messers” and “Fokkers”; no, they will add to the problems of industry with new weapons, and fundamentally new ones at that. It's the same story about the Panther, when it was made the main medium tank. Guderian objected to this. They say the four coped with the tasks quite well as the main medium tank, and the cost of producing the Panther was higher. Rightly, in difficult times, we received instructions not to introduce changes in the design of tanks, etc., that could slow down production.
  58. -1
    3 August 2019 10: 49
    A very, very interesting look at German jet fighters. Usually they always write that it was a breakthrough, a great achievement, and so on.
  59. +2
    3 August 2019 10: 55
    Quote: Maki Avellievich
    jet fighter production.
    he was at that time both the best and worst in the world for lack of others.

    Now imagine that instead of a jet engine they developed piston engines. Of which they would have made not 1000 pieces, but 5000. The immediate question is what would be more profitable for the Germans?
  60. +4
    3 August 2019 13: 22
    Fat minus. An enchanting mixture of conscious lies, technical and tactical illiteracy. There is no need to comment, it’s easier to write another.
  61. +3
    3 August 2019 13: 24
    Hmm....well, smart people publish here...........
  62. 0
    4 August 2019 04: 15
    These planes could fly on diesel and other fuels synthesized from coal. Beginning in 1944, the Luftwaffe experienced shortages of aviation kerosene because the Americans bombed the oil fields in Ploesti from their bases in Italy, and in the fall of 1944 all of Romania was occupied by Soviet troops.
  63. +2
    4 August 2019 14: 36
    The article would be excellent if it weren’t for the most important “BUT”
    The author did not indicate that the Me-262 was ordered as a fighter-BOMBER
    Which had one purpose - a breakthrough to the landing points of the landing forces and a bombing (and “precision”, as they like to say today) strike on the landing stages and berth structures.
    Without these structures, unloading equipment and supplies is impossible, and therefore any landing operation will bog down. It was the Me-262 that had a 100% chance of breaking through the air defense of the 1943-44 model and making the landing in Normandy a complete beating of the landing force in front of hundreds of support ships.
    In principle, no small arms were planned, no air combat...
    The main “load” was supposed to be bombs dropped from a shallow dive - that’s why the wing had such a high load. And gliding bombs.
    No “interception” would have been possible, and shipborne air defense artillery systems even in the 50s did not have the means to effectively fire at SINGLE targets at speeds of about 800 km/h.
    However, the designers and, above all, the customer from the “Luftwaffe aces” simply sabotaged this order - they wanted to have an unbreakable aircraft, which, moreover, would not fly - in order to survive until the end of the war alive. Therefore, under the guise of information security, only fighter variants WITHOUT a bomb load were built, and when it became clear, it was already too late. They even managed to deceive their own Fuhrer...
    I advise the author to study German sources.
  64. 0
    6 August 2019 08: 40
    Dear author!

    Writing serious articles on the VO website presupposes that the author has a specialized (i.e. aviation) education. If it is not there, any article turns into useless chatter and causes not interest, but a squabble in the comments. Skomorokhov, unlike you, is not so categorical in his articles and is capable of analyzing the material studied, although it also happens that he has one name, but a different meaning.

    I will not fully comment on the content of your article, but I will try to explain a number of questions as clearly as possible:

    The Me-262 was the first jet fighter. It could not be the limit of perfection, because its creation was based on the achievements of science and industry known at that time. Later, scientists figured out the “wave crisis”, “thickness shocks”, increasing horizontal maneuverability, vehicle flight range, the composition of on-board weapons and the efficiency of their firing, ways to overcome the influence of overloads on the human body, etc. and so on. During my service in the GSVG and later, while in Germany, I had to talk with Luftwaffe veterans, incl. and those who operated the Me-262. Here, from memory, are some of their statements:
    “with a sharp decrease in speed, engines ignited and even exploded”;
    “the plane easily moved at a speed of 560 km/h and turned twice as fast as the Me-109”;
    “the cabin had a minimum of instruments, lower noise levels and good visibility”;
    “The impact of 30-mm cannon shells literally “torn” the bomber;
    “the plane had hydraulic boosters and the forces on the control stick were significantly lower than on the FV-190A and D;
    “The engines often failed, but they were produced in sufficient quantities until the very end of the war. In April 1945, in Czechoslovakia, there were 46 of them out of 76 serviceable vehicles”;
    “if I had the choice of a car, I would prefer the Me-262 to any other German fighter”;
    “I only made 262 combat missions on the Me-8. It seems to me that we managed to shoot down two Russian Yaks, but there was no confirmation from the ground and they were not counted”;

    The plane was the prototype of modern jet fighters and certainly cannot be considered a disgrace and degradation. Dear author, you wrote nonsense!

    The article "Fighters of the Second World War: the best of the best. An engineer's view", published in 2018, was published on the VO website. In my opinion, this is an example of how to write on an aviation topic.
  65. -1
    6 August 2019 13: 20
    I do not agree with the author’s conclusions, the plane was kept on the ground by the engine, and its design began in 1939, while for competitors it was 1943-1944. Considering the speed of progress in the war, this is a whole generation.
  66. +1
    6 August 2019 15: 35
    They forgot something about the Me-262’s competitor, the He-280, which could have become the first production one. But for various reasons, including for reasons of relations in RLM, Messerschmitt won.
    All documentation for the He-280 was taken as a trophy by the Red Army (in Austria) and was meticulously translated into Russian. I think Sukhoi had the opportunity to get acquainted with it, which, as evil tongues say, had a beneficial effect on the Su-9 project.
    Therefore, to say that the Su-9 is a pulled Me-262 is definitely not correct, but rather a He-280M.
  67. 0
    8 August 2019 05: 34
    Gonevo !Gonevo !Gonevo !
    Oleg is off topic, it’s good that at least he didn’t make liquor out of airplanes!
    And 100-200 meters, according to the recollections of Soviet aces Vodopyanov, Kozhedub, Pokryshkin and others, is the normal distance for an attack, i.e. exactly what they did for the Me 262.
    Again, according to the memoirs of Soviet aces - what a painful hemorrhoids the hunt for these figolipov, according to Kaptsov, under-reactive Me 262 aircraft was
  68. 0
    9 August 2019 10: 18
    1. “Whistle” Yumo-004 is a very good product for its time. An axial compressor is more promising than English centrifugal ones. The cost of an engine is several times lower than a piston engine for a fighter. You practically don’t need any two types of fuel - the gasoline engine has a few horsepower to start and worked very briefly, a few liters of gasoline were enough for it to take off. Then the engine burned only scarce fuel (kerosene) instead of high-octane gasoline. Yakovlev showed how to use this “whistle” and created the Yak-15/17, based on the piston Yak according to a modified design with the same engine. He was already performing hovering aerobatics.
    2. Krill Me-262 is also quite suitable for those speeds (up to 900 km/h). The Yak-15/17 used the Yak-3 krill quite successfully and the plane flew well.
    3. The Germans miscalculated with the MK-108 guns, but the 55 mm NURS is a completely effective weapon that has been successfully used since March 45. Of course, weapons with suitable guns like those of post-war Soviet fighters could do even better. I can note that in Korea a handful of Yak-9s with their “weak” weapons (one 20 mm cannon and two 12,7 mm machine guns) managed to shoot down several B-29s and at least one shot down and one damage to a B-29 from the Yak-9 confirmed by the Americans. The effect of one 37 mm and two 23 mm cannons on the B-29 is also well known.
    So the problems of the Me-262 are not in the engines, krills and guns, but in the fact that the Germans failed to use their technical superiority as needed.
    1. 0
      9 March 2020 14: 33
      In fact, they simply didn’t have time; they didn’t have enough ~ 1,5 years to fine-tune the engine and aircraft. Using 262s and 163s is an act of desperation. The ratio of aircraft between Germany and the Allies (including the USSR) was ~1/5 - a super-weapon was needed.
  69. 0
    2 September 2019 15: 23
    There was no degradation. For the 42nd it was advanced, but it was delayed for 2 years and even then they wanted to use it as a bomber. In 44, he could no longer fight a swarm of mustangs, especially since by that time the Germans had lost Romanian oil, and he needed more fuel than piston fuel. If it had been used at an earlier stage of the war, all its shortcomings would have come to light and would have been corrected by 44.
  70. 0
    9 October 2019 10: 41
    The author of the article needs to “exhale” at a minimum and stop drinking boyarka at a maximum.
    1. Comparing the Me262 interceptor, designed to cut four-engine aircraft, directly with single-engine fighters is nothing less than superintelligence.
    2. Criticize 30-mm guns with poor ballistics, BUT forgetting about 85g of explosives in one shell, designed to multiply four-engine guns by zero, this is again overthinking.
    3. Talking about maneuverability on a jet, but forgetting to talk about the excellent speeds, including the flatter, is again superintelligence.
    4. After the loss of the oil fields in Romania, the Germans used only 40% of tanks and 20% of aircraft, all the rest was in garages without fuel... so it made no sense to “make” 100.000 “ordinary” Messers.
    5. Well, to say that German developments were not used after the war and Soviet reagents were built independently and independently... it’s even difficult to comment on.
    PS
    Maybe the author can name AT LEAST ONE Soviet car that was not copied from Western models!?!?!
  71. 0
    14 January 2020 11: 44
    How easy it is to be “smart” not with your own mind and “after that”:
    1. This is the first jet fighter to go into production.
    2. British tanks 1916 and the Wright brothers’ planes are not very similar to the Abrams and Almatys, B-2 and Tu-160.
    3. There were pilots ready to fight in these machines, and they were exactly the ones described in the article. For example, Adolf Galand - read the memoirs and everything is very clearly stated there, where and how this machine could be used.
    Still, it’s better to be a dead lion than a living mongrel, considering that the experience of German designers and pilots after the war was used by everyone both in the East and in the West; simply spitting on their work is disgusting to say the least. What is the AUTHOR himself all new in our military affairs?
  72. 0
    9 March 2020 14: 26
    "It was impossible to build a full-fledged fighter jet in the 1944 year.

    But it became possible in 1947.

    The first domestic serial turbojet engine VK-1 (RD-45) exhaled 2,6 tons of flame and fire with a dry weight of 872 kg. It differed from German crafts in four times longer lifespan, and did not require complex tricks using two types of fuel (takeoff on gasoline, main flight on kerosene/diesel fuel for Jumo-004
    ) ".
    The first jet engines in the USSR were either RD-10 (YUMO-004) with a thrust of up to 900 tons or RD-20 (BMW-003).
    VK-1 - Based on the British Rolls-Royce Nene engine.
    The decision to sell 40 Rolls-Royce Nenes was made in 1946.
    By design, the RD-45 is a single-shaft turbojet engine with a single-stage centrifugal double-sided compressor, nine individual tubular combustion chambers and a single-stage turbine. It differed from the original (Rolls-Royce Nin) with a larger combustion chamber and a larger turbine, and the air flow through the engine was also changed.
    Why bring, to put it mildly, unverified data - this information was open even during the times of the USSR (Shavrov “History of Aircraft Designs in the USSR”)

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