Military Review

Me.262. The best weapons are the winners!

245
By 1944, the Reich had played out to the point where any decision was bad. How to cover the sky with Vaterland? Continue production of piston fighters (Me-109K). Well mastered by industry, but significantly inferior in characteristics to the aircraft of the Allies. Or learn from scratch the production of reactive Me.262. They had a lot of technical and operational risks with ambiguous advantages.


Me.262. The best weapons are the winners!


The participants in such disputes each time cannot decide which solution is ultimately more beneficial for the German side. Confused and stop the argument. This is because any of the solutions presented is bad.

The Germans opted for Schwalbe


In any other conditions, this design would not have a chance to get into combat squadrons.

Only in the confusion of the last 13 months of the war did it become possible for the military and politicians to endorse the launch of a series of unexplored designs. Tomorrow, urgently - to the troops, without risk analysis and with the involvement of all aircraft manufacturing facilities in Germany.

Technical risks? The consequences of possible errors? The only consequence for Goering is a capsule with cyanide!

As a result, managed to build 1400 aircraft. As it turned out, much more than scarce fuel reserves and suitable aerodromes allowed for. Another eloquent evidence of the conditions under which the Schwalbe was adopted.

Less than half were able to rise into the sky.

Tactics without strategy is vanity before defeat.

(Sun Tzu.)



The Germans were the first?


When discussing Me.262, an impenetrable argument pops up: the Germans were the first. This fact justifies any compromises and shortcomings of Me.262. And that is a lie.

Schwalbe was not the first and was not even the best. Frankly speakingThe Messermitt-262 was the worst among jets of the period. By the beginning of the 1944 year, the Allies had their own reactive models that exceeded Me.262 in all respects. (More on this below.)

Despite the results achieved, they were not considered worthy of large-scale production. Jet fighters did not have a distinct superiority over piston peers. In most situations, they showed only flaws.

Because no one except the Luftwaffe did not bet on such a technique.

But the Luftwaffe had nothing to lose.

The most perfect WWII fighter


Last time we looked at the British Gloucester Meteor. F.1 modification aircraft made combat sorties simultaneously with the Schwalbe, in July 1944. Subsequently, the Meteors were removed from the front line and sent to intercept the V-1: the only task in which their strengths were revealed and the flaws were not so annoyed.

Today the next hero is next in turn - Lockheed P-80 “Shooting Star” (“Shooting Shooting star"). Formally, the most technically advanced fighter of the Second World War.


They are the same age! The illustration gives an idea of ​​how backward German aircraft were.


The only P-80 Shooting Star engine developed traction equivalent to the two Schwalbe engines! The normal take-off mass of the fighter was less per ton, with the same wing area as the “German”.

Shunting Star flight tests began in January 1944, they were regularly interrupted by returning to the wind tunnel. At the same time, the Halford engine was improved. Like all successful first-born jet-era fighters, the P-80 fighter had a British "heart". The Yankees were in no hurry and did not make bold conclusions, while the new machine was guaranteed to surpass the piston peers in terms of the combination of fighting qualities. By the way, the serial P-80A of the end of the 1944 of the year was significantly different in design from the earlier XP-80.

The Shuting Stari made a couple of episodic sorties in Europe in April 1945, but remained too raw to talk about forming full-fledged combat formations from them.

Lockheed specialists were the first to guess which layout meets the requirements for a jet fighter. The placement of the turbojet engine in the rear of the fuselage, with air intakes in the root of the wing.



Alas, even the Shooting Star with its high-torque engine and competent layout was only a step towards the creation of formidable aircraft of the jet era.

The Soviet Union had its own story


The union had to win the war, and leave the bold technical search until better times.

The war is over. The technical and industrial capabilities of the USSR made it possible to conduct a qualitative analysis of all foreign projects as soon as possible. Decide on promising areas and make unambiguous conclusions.

The aforementioned conclusions of aircraft designers will obviously not appeal to the current public. But first things first.

In an effort to justify and elevate the fascist degenerates, many participants in the discussions fell to self-flagellation. Literally - we Russians ourselves could not do anything until we got access to the technologies of the Aryan race.

The real state of things was different.

Build from scratch own jet did not work. And nothing happened after meeting with German technology. Until the parcel arrived with engines from Albion.



Superpower reduced the backlog in one leap aviation!

The last time I was cited as an example Su-11 (1946 year) as a direct legacy of the German Me.262. Forgot to indicate the number of built - 2 units. That was enough to make sure that Schwalbe was the road to nowhere.

It was a shame to look at the Salamander. They did not even try to recreate it in metal.

Junkers Jumo-004 and BMW-003 engines (designated RD-10 and RD-20) are an obvious futile. In 1946-48 Based on the BMW-003, 600 MiG-9 fighters were assembled. By the standards of that era, they did not even begin to build them, compare with the number of issued MiG-15 (13 thousand). The Soviet Air Force soon became convinced that the BMW-003 and the “stepped” redanny layout (the engine under the fuselage, like the German Fokke-Wulf Ta-183) was a dead end.

Despite access to the “miracle technique”, Soviet specialists urgently requested a Rolls-Royce Ning to study


In 1946, through diplomatic intrigues, 40 samples of these engines entered the USSR. Enough to launch mass production of its own analogue under the designation VK-1.

Universal air soldier. One VK - MiG-15 fighter. Two engines - Il-28 bomber.

So, whose foreign developments have caused the greatest interest? What technical solutions were most successfully used in the construction of the first domestic jet aircraft?

In my opinion, the answer is obvious. The right to assess the impact of fascist technologies on Soviet post-war aviation is left to the readers themselves.

The truth about the Uber fighter caused a flurry of criticism and negative emotions


It's time to answer the most “hot” questions of opponents.

Many were outraged by the comparison of Me.262 and the P-47 Thunderbolt in a previous article. The same take-off weight with half the thrust. And one and a half times greater unit load on the wing of the jet Messerschmitt. Which immediately raises doubts about its combat effectiveness.



How can one compare the single-engine piston Thunderbolt and the twin-engine reactive Schwalbe?

Very simple. Both fighters are designed to solve the same problem - air combat.

With constant atmospheric parameters, the gradient of the Earth’s gravitational field and the same level of technical development, all piston fighters had a familiar look and layout.

The take-off weight of the Me-109K and Thunderbolt could be doubled, but the basic set of TTX proportions remained unchanged for all fighters of the final WWII period.

Single engine direct wing piston aircraft. Having a “payload” (fuel, weapon with b / c, avionics) about a quarter of the take-off weight and the specific load on the wing 200 ± 20 kg / m2.

Among successful fighters with a different layout, only Lightning can be recalled.

The German geniuses proposed their own solution - the experimental Pfail with tandem motors. The flight was fun, until the approach began. To touch the strip with a 1.5-meter lower keel (without a keel, he “struck” with a pushing screw) - under combat conditions, every second flight could end in Do.335 disaster. Anyway.

The tasks of a single-engine piston fighter were assigned to the jet "Messer"


He was sorely lacking in thrust, so Me.262 turned out to be twin-engine.

Even with two thrust engines, he still lacked, and the dubious combat value of the Schwalbe was obvious even at the stage of initial calculations.

It is worth noting that fighters with such an absurd layout as those of Schwalbe have not been built for 60 years. I was cited as an example by various IL-28, passenger Boeings and SR-71, the only joke is that none of the above is a fighter.

Of the really similar, we can recall only the specific interceptor Yak-25.

Considering the scanty number of Yak-25s built, as well as their “long” career in the Air Force, it should be recognized: apparently, this model has not received recognition because of its features. It is possible that other fighters with engine nacelles located under the planes were born within the walls of the design bureau, but not one became massive and successful.

The classic scheme for all fighters 1950-60's. became a "flying pipe." With an air intake in the nose of the fuselage, divided into two "sleeves", between which was the cockpit. The engine itself or engines were always located in the rear of the fuselage, not protruding beyond it.

The second option involved the location of air intakes in the root of the wing, freeing up space for a massive radar under the nose fairing. The same conditions and tasks explain the similarity of structures.

And the German “innovations” died along with the Reich.

Answers to reader questions


“Does the wing lift, in addition to the area, also depend on the shape of the wing and the flow velocity, how exactly does the wing lift of the P-47 and Me-262 relate?"

(The question was asked by Andrey Shmelev.)

This question must be answered in the reverse order. The lifting force of the Me.262 wing is less at once for two reasons. 1. Smaller area. 2. Sweep.

An arrow-shaped wing has a lower bearing capacity than an equal-sized straight wing. Therefore, military aircraft with a variable sweep wing (for example, Su-24) at subsonic speeds and during take-off and landing have an almost straight wing, “spreading” the console to the extreme position.



The benefits of swept wings appear only at high speeds. Much larger than those on which the Me262 and its opponents flew - piston fighters.

Small sweep wing Me.262 instead of the direct wing P-47. It does not compensate for the 1,5-fold difference in the value of the specific load. Based on the known facts, the swept wing only worsens maneuverability at speeds significantly lower than 1 Max.

To avoid further questions: Schwalbe did not have an integrated layout and any measures and miracles to avoid disruption of the flow.

“How exactly can you recalculate the thrust-to-weight ratio of a screw machine and a reactive one in a single system of traction power using the example of P-47 and Me-262?


The author will not pretend that he is daily engaged in recalculating the thrust-weight ratio of aircraft. Thrust - in kgf or tons, for a screw machine is created by its propeller group. In fact - the mass of air thrown by the screw. Model aircraft can find formulas in a search engine in minutes.

Given the format of the article, it is enough to see a simple and obvious fact - for an airplane, thrust is needed about a quarter of its take-off weight. For a fighter - there should be more, piston WWII fighters had a thrust-weight ratio at the 0,5 level.

And all the secret becomes apparent. This immediately explains why the 6-ton Schwalbe with 1,8 tons of thrust lacked the length of the runways. And why did the Messer evade any maneuvers causing a loss of speed.

The thrust ratio of Me.262 was less than the thrust ratio of piston aircraft.

The memory of the defeated enemy


Opponents accused the author of abuse of the enemy (accepted! The Reich fully deserved it) and downplaying the memory of the Victory in that war. The author strongly disagrees with the second paragraph.

First, Schwalbe were not used on the Eastern Front, except for occasional encounters with them in the air. There is simply nothing to downplay or exaggerate.

Secondly, it is enthusiastic remarks about Schwalbe that glorify fascism. The Germans were evil geniuses! It turns out, not geniuses. They just had a transcendental sense of their own greatness.

There is not a single area in which fascist Germany would achieve outstanding technical success, who had no analogues with us or our allies. Soviet armored vehicles, British jet engines - the cradle of modern aviation, nuclear weapons, anti-aircraft guided missiles (the American Lark complex) - all this existed in practice.

Neo-Nazis can only remember von Braun and his rockets. But von Braun alone is not enough for the “millennial Reich,” imagining itself to be the main nation on earth.

The Wehrmacht and the Luftwaffe never had clear technical superiority


All the successes of the Germans and our losses are the result of their better organization. An extremely unpopular conclusion, which, instead of soothing excuses (the German crushed with technology!), Forces us to look for reasons in ourselves and eliminate our own shortcomings. So that this does not happen again.

As for the Schwalbe fighter, enough has already been said about its technical appearance and comparison with other jet aircraft of the WWII era.

How and why was Me.262 launched into the series? It is useless to seek rational meaning in the actions of an agonizing adversary.
Author:
245 comments
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  1. bubalik
    bubalik 9 August 2019 18: 17
    +25
    ,,, with this plane already in the 4 circle went already laughing
    1. Andrey Shmelev
      Andrey Shmelev 9 August 2019 19: 50
      +6
      We read WIKI:

      After the war, the USAAF compared the P-80 and Me 262A concluding, "Despite a difference in gross weight of nearly 2,000 lb (900 kg), the Me 262 was superior to the P-80 in acceleration, speed and approximately the same in climb performance. The Me 262 apparently has a higher critical Mach number (the Me 262A's being at M 0.86), from a drag standpoint, than any current Army Air Force fighter. "[6]

      We translate: Me-262 showed superiority over R-80
      despite the greater weight, the Me-262 gained speed faster, was faster ... had the best Mach chillo

      Threat. and the P-80A was worth 110 thousand dollars;)
      1. Santa Fe
        9 August 2019 20: 07
        -5
        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
        After the war, the USAAF compared the P-80 and Me 262A concluding, "Despite a difference in gross weight of nearly 2,000 lb (900 kg), the Me 262 was superior to the P-80 in acceleration, speed and approximately the same in climb performance. The Me 262 apparently has a higher critical Mach number (the Me 262A's being at M 0.86), from a drag standpoint, than any current Army Air Force fighter. "[6]

        This chatter runs counter to all known facts about the P-80. No more specific figures are provided.

        Why would a heavier aircraft with worse aerodynamics and a less high-torque engine have an advantage in acceleration performance?

        And why in the end they adopted Shuting Star, not Schwalbe
        1. Andrey Shmelev
          Andrey Shmelev 9 August 2019 20: 11
          +11
          This chatter runs counter to all known facts about the P-80. No more specific figures are provided.


          provide the characteristics of the R-80A from February 1945 - you are the author of the article;)
          current chur with proofs

          And why in the end they adopted Shuting Star, not Schwalbe


          because it was received when amers still did not have Me-262 drawings
          and then there was already a normal R-80C car;) and Saber in the future
    2. iouris
      iouris 9 August 2019 22: 27
      +4
      Quote: bubalik
      already in the 4th round we went

      Boom hoping that we "went" in a spiral. We would have their problems.
    3. Andrey Shmelev
      Andrey Shmelev 10 August 2019 16: 21
      +6
      once again, let's go back a little:

      A reader's question:
      “How exactly can you recalculate the thrust-to-weight ratio of a screw machine and a reactive one in a single system of traction power using the example of P-47 and Me-262?
      Kaptsov's answer:
      "The author will not pretend that he is daily recalculating the thrust-to-weight ratio of aircraft. The thrust - in kgf or tons, for a propeller-driven machine is created by its propeller-driven group. In fact, the mass of the air thrown by the propeller. Model aircraft designers can find formulas in a search engine in minutes ... The thrust-to-weight ratio is Me. 262 was less thrust-to-weight ratio of piston aircraft. "
      Conclusion:
      Oleg does not understand that how the efficiency of the propeller group decreases with increasing air flow rate, and therefore is not able to answer the question: why is the Me-262 faster than the R-47.

      This immediately explains why the 6-ton Schwalbe with 1,8 tons of thrust lacked the length of the runways.

      next pearl from the same topic of misunderstanding the ratio of engine efficiency and air flow rate

      Why would a heavier aircraft with worse aerodynamics and a less high-torque engine have an advantage in acceleration performance?

      another pearl from the same topic.
      First, Oleg did not show the advantages of the R-80 in aerodynamics.
      The second - the complete superiority of the Me-262 with respect to the efficiency of the air intakes is presumed, which Oleg again does not understand.

      And all these to the reader’s question:
      “Does the wing lift, in addition to the area, also depend on the shape of the wing and the flow velocity, how exactly does the wing lift of the P-47 and Me-262 relate?"
      Kaptsov's answer:
      "This question must be answered in reverse order. The lift of the Me.262 wing is less for two reasons at once. 1. Smaller area. 2. Sweep".
      Conclusion: Oleg, well, it’s not worth it ...;)

      And finally, cu de gras:

      The following cars were produced:
      Lockheed XP-80 Shooting Star
      Lockheed XP-80A Shooting Star
      Lockheed YP-80A Shooting Star
      Lockheed P-80A Shooting Star
      Lockheed p-80b shooting star
      Lockheed P-80C Shooting Star

      the first prototype XP-80 took off a year and a half after the flight of the Me-262 with turbojet engine

      P-80A appeared in parts only in the summer of 1945
      before that there were only XP-80A and YP-80A
      take the characteristics of the post-war R-80 and shove in 1944 as correctly as

      I am waiting for an article from Kaptsov about how the T-1943 tank with a gas turbine and a 80-mm gun was washed down at the Gorky Automobile Plant in 125
    4. BMP-2
      BMP-2 11 August 2019 23: 53
      0
      Quote: bubalik
      with this plane already in the 4th round we went already

      ... and nowhere is there a word about Bi-1 of Bereznyak and Isaev ...
      1. prosto_rgb
        prosto_rgb 12 August 2019 20: 09
        0
        Quote: BMP-2
        Kaptsov never had any problems.
        A quality article, albeit with controversial issues, which, like its first on the topic and the article by R. Skomorokhov, will gather a large number of comments. But is this not an indicator of the interest of the VO audience?

        So it relates to rocket planes, and here fighters with turbojet engines
  2. rayruav
    rayruav 9 August 2019 18: 19
    +15
    the author brechet like a gray gelding, the speed of a serial gloucester meteor - 660 km per hour
    1. Rwmos
      Rwmos 9 August 2019 19: 10
      +7
      And not only in this wink
      1. Santa Fe
        9 August 2019 19: 14
        +3
        Quote: rayruav
        the author brechet like a gray gelding, the speed of a serial gloucester meteor - 660 km per hour

        Did the author indicate somewhere that the Gloucester Meteor speed was higher?

        Where in general does the article talk about meteor speed? Does rayruav have a problem with the perception of information?
        1. Rwmos
          Rwmos 9 August 2019 19: 23
          +7
          Did you blindly insert a green checkmark, or just didn’t bother to read what was on it?
          1. Santa Fe
            9 August 2019 19: 39
            +3
            There is no Gloucester Meteor on the table.

            Compare German Schwalbe and American P-80 Shooting Star

            1. Rwmos
              Rwmos 9 August 2019 19: 44
              +3
              Oops, sorry, ut I carefully read the author above, it seemed to me that the speech in the article and here for Shuting is old
              1. Santa Fe
                9 August 2019 19: 46
                +13
                It happens)) Thank you for participating in the discussion
    2. Vlad.by
      Vlad.by 10 August 2019 01: 22
      +17
      You can and should argue with the article. At least on the issue of the primacy of the Americans in fighter jets, and not only. But, honestly, Oleg surprised me in a good way. A lot of work is visible, but Kaptsov never had a problem with the syllable and logic.
      A quality article, albeit with controversial issues, which, like its first on the topic and the article by R. Skomorokhov, will gather a large number of comments. But is this not an indicator of the interest of the VO audience?
      And do not blame the author for inaccuracies. It has what information it uses.
      I am convinced that there is no conscious juggling of facts - different sources often give different data. And to take something for the absolute truth, I would beware.
      And the fact that Kaptsov “caused fire on himself” after many critical comments on the first article, writing a sequel, is worth a lot.
      Bravo Oleg!
      1. IL-18
        IL-18 11 August 2019 22: 20
        0
        I can not help but join a positive review about the article. I was interested to read, and this is important. The author is well done.
  3. sabakina
    sabakina 9 August 2019 18: 20
    +10
    Subsequently, the Meteors were removed from the front line and sent to intercept the V-1
    Mother is my grove! In mid-1944, reagents drove the Luftwaffe with might and main! Kaptsov, you can throw a picture, or better newsreels ...
  4. Amateur
    Amateur 9 August 2019 18: 20
    +6
    Neo-Nazis can only remember von Braun and his rockets.

    If I understood correctly, then in "the story is sadder in the world .." about Me-262, those who are against Kaptsov - see above, and who are white and fluffy.
  5. mark1
    mark1 9 August 2019 18: 22
    +1
    Scholasticism and exercises with a checker at the same time.
    1. AUL
      AUL 9 August 2019 19: 27
      +7
      Well, a man scolds! It is necessary to understand it - it’s a shame!
      1. DrVintorez
        DrVintorez 10 August 2019 10: 02
        -1
        Quote: AUL
        It is necessary to understand him

        and forgive?
        1. AUL
          AUL 10 August 2019 10: 05
          0
          Who among you is without sin - let the first throw a stone at me! (Jesus Christ)
          Do not judge - let not you be judged! (He is)
  6. Oleg Zorin
    Oleg Zorin 9 August 2019 18: 24
    +15
    Sometimes it is better to be silent than to speak. "In an effort to justify and elevate the fascist geeks" - we are not at a rally, why such pathos)))
    1. DrVintorez
      DrVintorez 10 August 2019 10: 03
      0
      Quote: Oleg Zorin
      In an effort to justify and exalt fascist degenerates

      in an effort to exalt amers. This is Oleg congenital. I was still surprised in the first article that there are no praises for American weapons and I suspected a catch. not mistaken.
  7. rayruav
    rayruav 9 August 2019 18: 24
    +6
    the British brought the engines only after the war, if the German engineers had the same conditions, whose question would be better
    1. Santa Fe
      9 August 2019 18: 35
      -7
      There would be the same conditions for the French, for the Chinese, for the Mongols ... you can continue endlessly

      In reality, we have a fact - the Anglo-Saxons had the best aircraft. And it was from the development that they laid the foundation for all jet aircraft
      1. sabakina
        sabakina 9 August 2019 18: 54
        +8
        And if the leader of the Tumba Yumba tribe, named Yumba Tumba had his own Korolev, then we would now go with nose rings!
      2. rayruav
        rayruav 9 August 2019 19: 13
        +10
        Oleg I do not agree with you the planes were not bad at all, but they fought in different conditions, all the Anglo-Saxon tales about the superiority of their aircraft are only tales in the first place, numerical superiority from the end of 1942 (this is the eastern front), but secondly, take the losses of the Allied aviation over Europe there are not small numbers; they are just feeding us Western propaganda now, as some time ago we piled the Germans in piles of truth in the middle the only thing was the quality of American cars was higher, their industry worked in greenhouse conditions
        1. Santa Fe
          9 August 2019 19: 17
          -1
          Quote: rayruav
          Oleg I do not agree with you the planes were not bad

          Why buy Rolls-Royce Ning, if there were ready-made German developments

          Because Junkers Jumo-004 (880 kgf thrust) is a dead end
          An engine of the same size with an 2 thrust was required, and the Soviets knew that the British had such an engine
          1. rayruav
            rayruav 9 August 2019 19: 23
            +5
            Already wrote about this when they bought Nin? after fine-tuning the post-war period, but during the war it was no better than the German models, the Saxons could work on the engine calmly all the end of the war, but the Germans were deprived of this opportunity almost completely you are not correctly comparing military and post-war production of jet aircraft
            1. Santa Fe
              9 August 2019 19: 26
              -4
              Quote: rayruav
              war, he was no better than the German samples

              Then how do you explain the appearance of "Shooting Star" in 1944

              Before Nina and the British, there was a whole line of turbojet engines that had no equal in specific and absolute indicators among peers. Halford (aka General Electric J33 - the Shooting Star engine with 1,5-2 tons of thrust), at the same time as Dervent, Nin was created by the year 45
              1. rayruav
                rayruav 9 August 2019 19: 30
                +9
                When was the arming shooter old? not at 44, and not even at 45, but he took life in non-combat conditions of the best Amer ace, well, how not to compare with Walter Navotny
                1. Santa Fe
                  9 August 2019 19: 37
                  -8
                  Quote: rayruav
                  When was the arming shooter old?

                  In 45

                  Shooting Star was designed in the 1943 year on the basis of the British engine, which already at that time exceeded all German developments in the field of turbojet engines
                  1. rayruav
                    rayruav 9 August 2019 19: 53
                    +6
                    you are not confusing the case with the aircomet, but at the end of the 45th, but it’s more likely a trial operation and I have already said I’m not inclined to trust their publications, I must nevertheless comprehend the situation with jet aircraft in the light of the capture by the Allies of samples of German jet technology not only me-262
                  2. svp67
                    svp67 9 August 2019 22: 01
                    +6
                    Quote: Santa Fe
                    In 45

                    At the end of 45 ... When was the Me-262 adopted? And another question, why is there no line for the "green check marks" with the composition of the weapons of these fighters in the comparison table?
                    1. Crimean partisan 1974
                      Crimean partisan 1974 10 August 2019 00: 01
                      +7
                      "green check marks" with the composition of weapons ... because it is easy to keep silent that there were only 6 machine guns on the aglitsky (according to the kaptsov mega-fighter). and the no-one Schwalba has only 4 30-mm guns, but God marks the rogue, in Korea, the mother of MiGs arranged for Kuzkin's mother MiGs with cannons, and shouting-shmuting and sabram-bar-bars and other super-fortresses
          2. Dooplet11
            Dooplet11 9 August 2019 21: 58
            +8
            (c) Kaptsov:
            Because Junkers Jumo-004 (880 kgf thrust) is a dead end


            Just for information. UMO-004С had traction 1000kg. For two engines, static thrust 2 tons:

            And in terms of specific characteristics, Yumo was not an outsider among his contemporaries.
          3. Amurets
            Amurets 10 August 2019 02: 25
            +8
            Quote: Santa Fe
            Junkers Jumo-004 (880 kgf thrust) - dead end

            Junkers Yumo is not a dead end, a dead end Rolls Royce Nin and Derwent. EMNIP on these engines ends the era of engines with a centrifugal compressor. Further development of aircraft engine building followed the path of building engines with an axial compressor. "http://militera.lib.ru/h/brofy_a/24.html In 1944, while the J-40 engine was successfully developed at Lynn, engineers at General Electric in Schenectady, engaged in the development of the first turboprop engine, took the time to work and over a turbojet. [310] As in the turboprop, this turbojet used an axial compressor, which had the advantage of a smaller drag area and a higher efficiency than the centrifugal compressor installed on the J-40 engine. A contract was awarded and the TG-180 (Air Force nomenclature J-35) entered production Until the end of the war, the development and production of the J-35 was carried out by General Electric exclusively in Schenectady.
            1. Bad_gr
              Bad_gr 10 August 2019 11: 24
              0
              Quote: Amurets
              Further development of the aircraft engine industry went along the path of building engines with an axial compressor.

              I would not say that for all aviation. In jet aircraft - yes, and where the screws and fans are centrifugal turbines are used even on the most modern engines. For example, a Garrett TPE331 turboprop engine

              "..... These engines have a two-stage centrifugal compressor. They are installed mainly on small short-haul passenger, transport and sports aircraft. For example: An-38, Jetstream 41, Cessna 441 Conquest II and even during the remotorization of our An-2 (new name TVS-2MS) ..... "
          4. andrewkor
            andrewkor 10 August 2019 07: 00
            +11
            The fact is that Junkers was with an axial compressor, and Rolls with a centrifugal compressor, operating in a temperature range well below the axial one. Junkers' problems lay in the field of materials science.
            As soon as heat-resistant materials and internal cooling of the blades were obtained, the whole world switched to the axial design of a gas turbine engine.
            1. Operator
              Operator 10 August 2019 16: 57
              -4
              The German jet adventure differed from the consistent development of engine building in other countries that the engineers of Jumo and BMW tried to make a theoretically correct design out of "shit and sticks".

              After the war, all production and research equipment of German factories and design bureaus, as well as several thousand German and Austrian designers, engineers and technicians for the development and production of turbojet engines, were exported to the USSR. They and their Soviet colleagues were tasked with setting up production of German structures (under Soviet titles) at a new location, which they successfully managed.

              However, copies of the British turbojet engine with a centrifugal compressor, less theoretically efficient, but absolutely operational at the level of engineering and technology of that time, went into the series.

              The German wunderwaffles were only suitable for gaining negative experience, which is also a result only from the point of view of science, but not from the point of view of the military-industrial complex and the air force of any country, with the exception of the Third Reich.
      3. svp67
        svp67 9 August 2019 21: 58
        +6
        Quote: Santa Fe
        And it was from the development that they laid the foundation for all jet aircraft

        Well, do not distort the same. The Germans made a huge contribution to this foundation.
        Yes, and how to understand this:
        The last time I was cited as an example Su-11 (1946 year) as a direct legacy of the German Me.262. Forgot to indicate the number of built - 2 units.

        Well, to begin with, the analogue of Me-262 was not Su-11, but Su-9. Well, yes there were only two of them. but nevertheless in the USSR this scheme was not rejected.
        Now it remains just to find out how much the Yak-25 was released

        and Yak-28

        Most of all, there is a certain interest that Yakovlev himself, although he was an opponent of the Me-262 plane, and very zealous, but all this did not prevent him, seven years after the war and ten years after the first flight of the "Burevestnaya Swallow", to apply his installation scheme engines in our aircraft, although already at that time both the MiG-15 and La-15, and his Yak-23, where the engine was in the fuselage, flew quite well
        1. Bad_gr
          Bad_gr 10 August 2019 11: 34
          +1
          Quote: svp67
          ..... but all this did not prevent him, seven years after the war and ten years after the first flight of the "Burevestnaya Swallow", to apply his scheme for installing engines in his plane, although already at that time MiGs were flying quite well with us. 15, and La-15, and his Yak-23, where the engine was in the fuselage ...

          If my memory serves me, then according to the technical specifications, Yakovlev created a barrage fighter. that is, the plane should not rise into the air to intercept the enemy that appeared, but should be on duty in the air waiting for its appearance. Perhaps for this task, such an arrangement of the aircraft seemed to the designers the most suitable.
          1. Vladimir Teplov
            Vladimir Teplov 10 August 2019 15: 54
            +2
            When I read the book of Yakovlev Purpose of Life, he wrote why he chose this scheme. He made an all-weather fighter and specially removed the engines from the fuselage where he placed the most powerful radar for its time, which at that time had large size and weight
            1. svp67
              svp67 10 August 2019 18: 45
              -2
              Quote: Vladimir Teplov
              When I read the book of Yakovlev Purpose of Life, he wrote why he chose this scheme. He made an all-weather fighter and specially removed the engines from the fuselage where he placed the most powerful radar for its time, which at that time had large size and weight

              Yeah ... This is especially evident in the example of the Yak-28, with its glass cabin at the bomber and scout.
              1. DimerVladimer
                DimerVladimer 14 August 2019 12: 17
                +1
                Quote: svp67
                Yeah ... This is especially evident in the example of the Yak-28, with its glass cabin at the bomber and scout.


                A circuit with separated engines seems more tenacious.
                Detachment of the engine blades in a circuit with two engines in the fuselage - with a high probability will lead to failure of both engines, breaking tanks, loss of aircraft.
                The engine diversity scheme provides better access to pre-flight inspection and maintenance.
                With the growth of engine reliability, the scheme lost its significance and was partially used in the A-10 and Su-25 attack aircraft (engine spacing, to increase combat survivability). By the way, the competitor A-10 Northrop YA-9 also had spaced engines (on opposite sides of the fuselage), like the Su-25.
          2. svp67
            svp67 10 August 2019 18: 44
            -1
            Quote: Bad_gr
            If my memory serves me, then according to the technical specifications, Yakovlev created a barrage fighter.

            Yeah, only BYAD, these planes were in versions not only of a barrage interceptor, by the way, with far from weak cannon armament, but also of scouts, fighter-bombers and light bombers. What is very reminiscent of Me-262.
  8. Grizli-666
    Grizli-666 9 August 2019 18: 34
    0
    Great answer. But the stink will be ...)) And good
    1. Operator
      Operator 9 August 2019 18: 50
      -4
      Schaz, linguists will come running bully
      1. Santa Fe
        9 August 2019 19: 09
        0
        British culture has a huge selection of names for evil spirits
        What Rolls Royce uses

        .besides the Ghost (Ghost / Specter / Spook / Revenant), the Phantom and the Spirit (by the way Spirit has three main meanings: a ghost spirit, a strong drink, and a mood for action), the Rolls-Royce Race super coupe appeared on the premium model market - evil mountain spirit native to scotland

        1. Operator
          Operator 9 August 2019 19: 15
          -5
          I was referring to the graduate linguist "Andrei Shmelev" - a fan of Messerschmitt handicrafts.
  9. paul3390
    paul3390 9 August 2019 18: 41
    +15
    As far as I understand, Schwalbe did not initially think of it for a dog dump. Sharpening was - under the extremely annoying Amer bombers. He quickly approached, crashed from all the trunks and - fell down ... Therefore, comparing it with the rest of the fighters is probably not very true. The P-47 was also a rare shit in air battles, but as a long-range escort fighter at high altitudes, it was quite suitable. But they don’t like him?
    1. psy06
      psy06 10 August 2019 10: 29
      0
      So the fighter-bomber, where the second was clearly more.
  10. Disorder
    Disorder 9 August 2019 18: 42
    +15
    Poor Me.262 .... Kaptsov has a fierce hatred of him.
    1. Santa Fe
      9 August 2019 19: 29
      -12
      Quote: Trouble
      fierce hatred of him.

      To any German technique
      1. 2 Level Advisor
        2 Level Advisor 9 August 2019 21: 15
        +10
        Oleg, I don’t like fascists at all either, but as someone said above, we don’t hold a rally .. but VO .. so if the article is about hate (and not analytics), it’s not worth the piece of iron that doesn’t have a soul, but have a TTX to hate and review, let's discuss people .. or the MP-38 shooting at the Germans is good, but bad at ours (what don’t answer, but is it just a mechanism)? simply put, what SERIAL jet aircraft has been carrying out MASSO combat missions in the world since 1944 in a volume comparable to the Me-262?
        1. Operator
          Operator 9 August 2019 21: 36
          +1
          In total, from 1941 of the year 1933 pieces of Me-262 (experimental and serial) were produced, of which 61 (sixty-one) aircraft took part in the hostilities. Where did you see the mass solution to combat missions? In fact, there was a massive squandering of the scarce material, labor, and mobilization resources of the Third Reich.

          I strongly disagree with Oleg Kaptsov that the Me-262 was a bad choice for the Germans: the Schwalbe was an excellent choice - from the point of view of the Red Army Air Force, US Air Force and Royal Air Force laughing
      2. Disorder
        Disorder 9 August 2019 21: 54
        +6
        Well, don't write about her. Here, after all, IN, not a "room of hate".
      3. haron
        haron 9 August 2019 23: 25
        +1
        Quote: Santa Fe
        fierce hatred of him.

        To any German technique

        God be with him, I do not ask how to fight hatred? Yes, and fierce. So the majority then fought.
        I’ll ask how to survive and win with this hatred of iron. Probably not only they fought against iron, and they certainly hated the one who steers it. . Moreover, foreign iron was used against the creators at every opportunity.
        So who should be hated and who should be judged soberly? To use it for your own good whenever possible. And so that your children could live and have grandchildren - "Iron", or specific people using it against you?
        And do we hate the PPSh converted for 9 pairs too?
      4. tomket
        tomket 10 August 2019 00: 53
        +3
        Quote: Santa Fe
        To any German technique

        Oleg, why did you lie about the Su-11? You basically can not write articles without lies?
  11. Rwmos
    Rwmos 9 August 2019 19: 08
    +9
    Very simple. Both fighters are designed to solve the same problem - air combat.

    Only one - to accompany the raids, and the second - Pe-Be-O !!! Therefore, Shuting Star did not fight and the USSR Bi-1 was abandoned - with those engine resources and a reserve of fuel, it would simply not have flown before the battle, it could only be air defense, and only in a losing country - they would be hit faster than the resource runs out.
    Further, what kind of yearling are you, Shuting Star, who STARTED to develop in the 43 year and flew in the 1941 year for Me 262? !!!
    We’ll do everything, you can ban
    1. Santa Fe
      9 August 2019 19: 22
      -7
      Quote: RWMos
      flew in 1941 year Me 262? !!!

      Flew, only with PISTON ENGINE

      Hahaha



      "Schwalbe" sample 1941)) this is a breakthrough!
      1. Rwmos
        Rwmos 9 August 2019 19: 33
        +11
        Ha-ha, not ha-ha, the glider was licked off, in the 42nd the flight was already flooded with turbojets, and the statics was tested with turbojets in 1941 too. 1942 - everything is ready. About any Shooting and Starry was not heard even in the project, the dviglo arrived in the USA in 1943 and only then STARTED something about Shooting Star to talk, while already knowing for sure about the developments of Gloucester Meteor and Bi-1 from the allies ... rake studied. Haha - this is "haha - Shooting Star is the same first as Robert Scott at the South Pole"!
        Messer could be used in 1942, it was just that the Reich wasn’t needed then for the same reason as the Shuting Star and then the Americans - with the then metallurgy, for example, normal blades could not be made, there’s no resource.
        Once again, you look at the rivets. But you need to look at reality. Why was Messer needed and why? A breakthrough to the bombers in conditions of total control of the sky by the enemy. Did he do that? He only did nightlights! And where did you see the shame?
        And again, they are not at the same age. If the Germans had time to redo everything, they might have altered it, but it was fully developed already in 1942. start a new project in 1943, they are not the same age !!!
        1. lucul
          lucul 9 August 2019 21: 28
          0
          Messer could be used in 1942, it was just that the Reich wasn’t needed then for the same reason as the Shuting Star and then the Americans - with the then metallurgy, for example, normal blades could not be made, there’s no resource.

          Now, it’s better.
          As soon as new alloys appeared (thanks to the development of materials science), only then did normal jet engines appear, capable of accelerating planes above the speed of sound.
          And the Germans got into the reagents, not yet possessing new alloys (without bringing up materials science), so the engine resource was "junk".
          1. Andrey Shmelev
            Andrey Shmelev 10 August 2019 12: 34
            0
            how much is already possible ....
            the Germans had such alloys in 1942, however, they began to save in 1944 and produce engines with a low resource negative
            1. lucul
              lucul 10 August 2019 13: 13
              0
              the Germans had such alloys in 1942,

              Ahaha - how much engine resource was on those alloys?)))) Compare at least with the MiG-15?
              If it doesn’t come, I’ll explain it in a simple way - the engine of ordinary Zhiguli can be boosted up to 200 hp, but the resource of the motor will be "junk", just like on the Me.262. )))))
              1. Andrey Shmelev
                Andrey Shmelev 10 August 2019 13: 27
                +3
                Aha-ahah - how much engine resource was on those alloys?


                100 hours for 100% load
                as well as the 605th - the RLM requirements were uniform

                who said that the 605th on afterburner had at least some resource;)

                in my opinion, we have already sorted out that not every fighter will make even 20 sorties
                so 30 hours for a 100% load is a lot

                but answer me, my dear man, how much was the resource of Soviet piston engines during the war? feel

                Let me tell you a little:
                "... Operation of type motors ASH-82FN occurred mainly on aircraft of the La-5, La-7 and Tu-2 type. Motors installed but the La-7 type ed. 11/16 factory installed a resource of 100 hours is not produced.
                this is for you to start self-development;)

                have a nice day
                1. lucul
                  lucul 10 August 2019 13: 41
                  -3
                  this is for you to start self-development;)

                  In Haifa, you will self-develop)))
                  Have you heard anything about the continuity of generations?
                  This is when the grandfather was a locksmith, the father was a locksmith, and the son became a locksmith - that is, 100 years of almost technical culture.
                  And another thing, when Russia from 1925 (almost no industry) rushed to 1941 to the level of all industrialized countries in 20 years. That is, the son, whose father went behind the plow, quite successfully becomes both the chief designer and a qualified mechanic. Hence the difference in the level of technical culture with Germany.
                  100 hours for 100% load
                  as well as the 605th - the RLM requirements were uniform

                  Seriously ? )))
                  How many captured, new Jumos flew to the USSR before the failure? )))
                  1. Andrey Shmelev
                    Andrey Shmelev 10 August 2019 13: 57
                    +3
                    Hence the difference in the level of technical culture with Germany.


                    i don't argue

                    How many trophy, new Jumos flew


                    so this is the trick that they were from ersatz,
                    new 004 from normal materials (1942) - see above

                    but also 30 hours - very good)
                    if you add that 004 is more than two times cheaper than 605,
                    and it’s easier to capitalize
                    and 605 on the afterburner is killed very quickly

                    something like
                  2. Andrey Shmelev
                    Andrey Shmelev 10 August 2019 15: 17
                    +3
                    Okay, don’t be tormented.

                    Forcing the M-82 for La-5 gave an increase in speed of up to 40 km / h due to the ability to use the take-off mode at the first supercharger speed in flight in steps 1, and in exceptional cases up to 5 minutes within the total duration of work in this mode 10 hours before the first bulkhead

                    and so on

                    have a nice day ;)
            2. Rwmos
              Rwmos 11 August 2019 23: 02
              +1
              Andrey Shmelev, YOU ARE STRONGLY WAITING.
              Here. sorry, do not say otherwise.
      2. Ural-4320
        Ural-4320 9 August 2019 19: 57
        +10
        In the lower photo Me-309. This is not Schwalbe.
        Damn, really no one is watching airwar.ru?
    2. BAI
      BAI 9 August 2019 23: 37
      +8
      USSR Bi-1 abandoned

      No need to compare warm with soft. Bi-1, like Me-163, is a rocket plane, not a turbojet one.
  12. Aviator_
    Aviator_ 9 August 2019 19: 28
    +1
    Gridasova about advanced science to comment on is much more interesting. By the way, something he disappeared, has not been seen for a long time.
    1. Vlad.by
      Vlad.by 10 August 2019 01: 41
      +1
      Remember the devil, and he’s right there))
  13. Taoist
    Taoist 9 August 2019 19: 29
    +11
    Save me ... Kaptsov was bitten by the "swallows" ... ;-)
    1. DrVintorez
      DrVintorez 10 August 2019 10: 07
      0
      Quote: Taoist
      Kaptsov "swallows" bit

      or squirrels.
  14. Ehanatone
    Ehanatone 9 August 2019 19: 32
    0
    Well, as for the Wehrmacht’s hope for a miracle weapon, Kaptsov is right, here is Me 262, and Mouse and God knows what, not to remember ...
    And whether the German engineer was kind or evil, it depended on the size of his salary, and the point at which the coloring of his activities is evaluated ...
    Nowadays, almost all engineers are so very furious, it’s just that they are all sinister and not through one ...
  15. Andrey Shmelev
    Andrey Shmelev 9 August 2019 19: 43
    +14
    Especially for Oleg I decipher his words to him:

    Me-262 - the first flight from the taxiway July 1942
    R-80 - first flight January 1944

    BETWEEN THEM AND A half OF THE YEAR!

    that is why

    The Shuting Stari made a couple of episodic sorties in Europe in April 1945, but remained too raw to talk about forming full-fledged combat formations from them.


    Oleg, carefully read your articles;)

    It is time.


    R-80A had a General Electric engine J33-GE-11 with a thrust of 1748 kg
    But the 890 km / h P-80A was developed with Allison J33-A-25-turbojet, with a thrust of 2450 kg in the 1953 year.
    Maybe I don’t know or confuse request

    Oleg, enlighten me, pst, regarding the exact characteristics of the R-80A machine adopted by the Air Force in February 1945.

    This two.
    1. Santa Fe
      9 August 2019 19: 51
      -9
      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
      But the 890 km / h P-80A was developed with Allison J33-A-25-turbojet, with a thrust of 2450 kg in the 1953 year.
      Maybe I don’t know or confuse

      Sure - confusing

      Otherwise, it is impossible to explain how "Schwalbe" developed the same speed, having a quarter less traction and more air resistance (the monstrous appearance of the Me.262 with engine nacelles will not allow this to be doubted)
      1. Andrey Shmelev
        Andrey Shmelev 9 August 2019 19: 53
        +6
        see above quote from wiki;)
        in my first comment
        1. Santa Fe
          9 August 2019 19: 59
          -3
          27 January 1946, Colonel William H. Councilson flew non-stop P-80 through the United States to make the first transcontinental jet flight. [11] He ran 2457 miles (3954 km) between Long Beach and New York for 4 hours 13 minutes 26 seconds at an average speed of 584 miles per hour (507 kn; 940 km / h) to set the Fédération Aéronautique Internationale.
          1. Andrey Shmelev
            Andrey Shmelev 9 August 2019 20: 04
            +10
            January 27 1946
            940 km / h
            to set a record

            how about record flights on the Me-262;)

            serial P-80В (B - Karl!) In 1947
            had Allison J33-A-17 thrust 1816 kg

            and this is a miracle R-80A prove that the serial easily ran out of at least 800)

            PS. during tests, the pre-serine was able to accelerate to 808 km / h
            1. Santa Fe
              9 August 2019 20: 11
              -6
              Quote: Andrey Shmelev
              had Allison J33-A-17 thrust 1816 kg

              Like the total thrust of two Schwalbe engines

              Schwalbe somehow ran out 850
              1. Andrey Shmelev
                Andrey Shmelev 9 August 2019 20: 15
                +2
                cons are not mine;)
                I’ll try to figure out what's the matter, how will I get back from the kin at night
                good evening
              2. Dooplet11
                Dooplet11 9 August 2019 22: 16
                +2
                Like the total thrust of two Schwalbe engines

                Schwalbe somehow ran out 850
                Sumno at Schwalba 2000kg at the end of 44
          2. DrVintorez
            DrVintorez 10 August 2019 10: 09
            +2
            Quote: Santa Fe
            He ran 2457 miles

            did he fly or run?
            What, Oleg, even a translator is not able to use it normally?
            everywhere you have a hack ...
      2. Dooplet11
        Dooplet11 9 August 2019 22: 15
        +7
        Otherwise, it is impossible to explain how "Schwalbe" developed the same speed, having a quarter less thrust

        General Electric I-40, aka J-33, who was standing on the P-80, developed the 1800kg traction. Two Yumo-004 with 2000 kgs. According to the summary table of parameters p12

        Where is a quarter less traction? With shorter Schwalba air intakes?
        1. Andrey Shmelev
          Andrey Shmelev 9 August 2019 23: 16
          +3
          plus 100500 hi
          but still I’ll lie about the R-80, maybe I’ll find something interesting - I just never collected info on it
      3. DimerVladimer
        DimerVladimer 14 August 2019 13: 56
        +1
        Quote: Santa Fe
        and more air resistance (the monstrous appearance of the Me.262 with engine nacelles will not allow this to be doubted)


        The erroneous opinion, dear Oleg, that the nacelles of a jet aircraft create some sort of particularly great resistance.
        Not the entire area of ​​the nacelle is involved in calculating air resistance - the air intake area is subtracted, because what draws in air faster than the incoming flow cannot create resistance.
        Side walls yes, they create some resistance.

        But the archaic keel and horizontal stabilizer P-80 has a lot of resistance. In addition, the horizontal stabilizer is partially located in the shading of the fuselage (in turbulent satellite flows), which does not contribute to stable control in certain modes.
        The Me-262 has a horizontal stabilizer extended upward - which is more progressive for high speeds - also not without drawbacks.

        In general, the aerodynamics of the P-80 cause a contradictory impression - the laminar profile and the engine inside the fuselage, the progressive air intake pattern (for the period of the appearance of airborne radars with intra-fuselage antennas - 15 years ahead), are adjacent to the archaic fuselage fairing, an outdated and ineffective tail unit - a controversial aircraft.
        I did not like the live P-80.



        Me-262 gives the impression of a much more thoughtful and calculated aircraft designed for jet engines and corresponding speeds, and the P-80 made in a hurry (which was actually) transitional from propeller aircraft, very quickly outdated, but gave several promising schemes for further development.
  16. armata_armata
    armata_armata 9 August 2019 19: 51
    +3
    It looks like it's time to call the brigade fool
    1. Rokossovsky
      Rokossovsky 9 August 2019 22: 24
      +5
      Not necessary. This is normal. We are local, have long been accustomed to! wink
      By the way, the case of Oleg has long been described by modern psychology:
      There is a type of people who show "donkey" perseverance during an argument and have an amazing talent - to invent arguments literally from nothing!
      The desire to be right (in a dispute, or in general in life) is the desire of a restrained ego to strengthen its own position.
      smile
  17. Sasha_rulevoy
    Sasha_rulevoy 9 August 2019 19: 53
    -6
    The Germans were evil geniuses! It turns out, not geniuses. They just had a transcendental sense of their own greatness.


    I support. If we assume that German weapons were created by geniuses, then we will have to admit that the degenerate Hitler, who had never learned anything during disputes with his subordinates and gnawed on carpets, and the idler Goering, chipped with morphine in furs and red boots above the knee, and sycophant Keitel, nicknamed Lakeitel, and other "postmen with ministerial salaries" were indeed a little clever people, at least in technical matters. Then the next step: maybe their racial theory about the Untermensch Slavs is not entirely complete nonsense? Clever pragmatic people could not take it like this and believe unconditionally in something, having no reason.

    Concerning V-1 and V-2 - this is also "ahead of time". All that could be done with this weapon was to kill several thousand bystanders on the streets of London. Then Bin Laden was the great genius of the art of war. Ten people with plastic knives - five thousand killed civilians, and tens of thousands of kilometers from his lair.
  18. Earthshaker
    Earthshaker 9 August 2019 19: 58
    -1
    Everything is clear, political order.
  19. armata_armata
    armata_armata 9 August 2019 20: 12
    +8
    There is not a single area in which fascist Germany would achieve outstanding technical success

    Well guys, you seem to be considered a specialized publication on military subjects. Not an alternative story, namely military themes. Sorry today there will be such nonsense, tomorrow a respected author will write that WWII won reptilians, will you also miss this?
    For me, such opuses disgrace the entire portal ...
  20. Operator
    Operator 9 August 2019 21: 04
    -5
    Quote: Santa Fe
    Why would a heavier aircraft with worse aerodynamics and a less high-torque engine have an advantage in acceleration performance?

    I warned you about a linguist laughing
  21. lucul
    lucul 9 August 2019 21: 16
    -9
    Me.262. The best weapons are the winners!

    Dear Oleg Kaptsov, well, stop already mocking people))))
    Especially for those over 40-50 years old. They were so amicably hammered into the heads by the superiority of German technology (it was very convenient to blame the failures of 41g on this) that they had already developed a conditioned reflex to this)))
    And they don’t want to hear about anything else.
    The first article was good, but this one laid out almost everything "on the shelves"))) The explanations are thorough - there is nothing to catch on and oppose, but they will cling to anything. Over the years, the brain is heavily rebuilt, and not everyone will agree to still perceive new information. The majority simply "cuckoo" in their own little world, isolating any information from the outside, so that nothing disturbs peace))
    So, in fact - this is an article - a sledgehammer, (the second one is already) a sledgehammer according to template (inspired) thinking ....))))
    1. AAK
      AAK 9 August 2019 22: 18
      +6
      Colleague Luculus, do not count on VO "those who are over 40-50" and senile. In the neoliberal media, in your words, "swearing" about the alleged superiority of German technology took place on a serious scale only in the Gorbachev-Yeltsin perestroika and the first years of the RF, and for people who know how to think it was never decisive, let alone "reflex". ..
      None of the numerous commentators on Mr. Kaptsov's opus ever spoke of 262 as the pinnacle of technical thought (in terms of engine, fuselage, weapons, flight performance, etc.), which determined the path of world jet aircraft construction for many years. It was only said that by 1945, the Reich had built almost one and a half thousand serial jet fighters, half of which flew and took part in hostilities mainly on the western front. None of the allies in the anti-Hitler coalition had anything like this either at that time, or even in the next year or two. The same "Shooting Stars" really fought only in the Korean War, and in spite of the praises scattered by the author of the article about their power and innovativeness, they were severely beaten by Soviet MiG-15s.
      1. lucul
        lucul 9 August 2019 22: 21
        -8
        Colleague Luculus, do not count on VO "those over 40-50" and senile

        Of course, I did not say FOR EVERYONE, who is over 40-50.
        I meant individuals.
        1. Andrey Shmelev
          Andrey Shmelev 9 August 2019 23: 49
          +2
          Individuals under 40;)
          Oh what a surprise!
          give a small text in the original so that they don’t say that they translated it wrong:

          The service history of the Shooting Star begins in 1944, when the decision was made to deploy four service test YP-80As to Europe to demonstrate their capabilities to combat crews and to help in the development of tactics to be used against Luftwaffe jet fighters. 44-83026 and 83027 were shipped to England in mid-December 1944, but 44-83026 crashed on its second flight in England, killing its pilot. 44-83027 was turned over to the British government and modified by Rolls-Royce to flight test the B-41, the prototype of the Nene turbojet. On November 14, 1945, 44-83027 was destroyed in a crash landing after an engine failure. 44-83028 and 83029 were shipped to the Mediterranean. They flew some operational sorties, but they never encountered any enemy aircraft. They were both returned to the USA after the war.
          The tenth, eleventh, and twelfth YP-80As were delivered in early 1945 to the 31st Fighter Squadron of the 412th Fighter Group at Bakersfield Municipal Airport in California for service tests. The first production P-80A was accepted by the AAF in February of 1945. The group relocated to Santa Maria AAF, California July of 1945... It moved again in November of 1945 to March Field, California. After the war in Europe was over, P-80As began to replace the P-51D and the few P-59As which had served with stateside units. The first 17 P-80As off the line were assigned to the 31st Squadron of the 412th Fighter Group, supplementing the YP-80As that the Group had already received. More P-80As went to the 29th and the 445th Squadrons of this group in the summer of 1945. This group was in preparation for deployment to the Pacific when Japan surrendered.
          In the summer of 1945, approximately 30 P-80As were sent aboard an aircraft carrier to the Philippines in preparation for the final assault on Japan. The planes were to be issued to the 414th Fighter Group, based at Florida Blanca. Unfortunately, the planes had been sent without their tip tanks and their aircraft batteries, so they sat aboard the aircraft carrier for 30 days waiting for this equipment. By the time that the batteries and wingtip tanks were delivered, the war in the Pacific had ended, so the P-80 never got a chance to enter combat in the war against Japan.

          http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/p80_12.html

          TopVar language is Russian - I can translate, who did not understand;)

          and tactfully hint that everyone there does not understand the difference between somewhat different:

          Lockheed XP-80 Shooting Star
          Lockheed XP-80A Shooting Star
          Lockheed YP-80A Shooting Star
          Lockheed P-80A Shooting Star
          Lockheed p-80b shooting star
          Lockheed P-80C Shooting Star

          march to school!
          1. lucul
            lucul 10 August 2019 13: 07
            -12
            march to school!

            Aha-ahah - the son of a lawyer drew himself again))) How is the weather in Haifa?))
            give a small text in the original so that they don’t say that they translated it wrong:

            http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/p80_12.html

            And where is the data from? From a Jewish propaganda website? Why, what))
            Burn "ischo")))
            1. Andrey Shmelev
              Andrey Shmelev 10 August 2019 14: 10
              +2
              And where is the data from? From a Jewish propaganda website? Why, what))
              Burn "ischo")))


              besides this nothing is able?
              draining counted negative

              Threat. if anything, I am Russian;) and I live in Russia
      2. tomket
        tomket 10 August 2019 00: 56
        +7
        Quote: AAK
        The same "Shooting Stars" really fought only in the Korean War, and in spite of the praises scattered by the author of the article about their power and innovativeness, they were severely beaten by Soviet MiG-15s.

        By the way, such a moment, the author makes Me-262 and P-80 as if they are the same age, which is basically not so. With the same success, you can pull by the ears to the peers of the P-80 and MiG-15, only between them a chasm. Although it would seem that a couple of years, which the author does, can be ignored.
  22. Elturisto
    Elturisto 9 August 2019 21: 32
    -7
    Excellent article. Thanks to the author. He slashed the German lovers lizunov in full. A couple of comments on the topic:
    - Tri-fusel Me-262 from the point of view of aerodynamics, ensuring durability and production technology shit.
    -The location of the engines in the Yak-25 is due to the need to free the nose for a massive radar.
    -The British are the undisputed leaders in aircraft engine building in the 30-40s - Bristol "Centaur", Napier "Saber", Rolls-Royce "Merlin" - outstanding engines ...
    -Lame Me-262, more likely a rule than an exception, it’s hard to disagree with the author, just remember the bent sidewall of the Tiger tower ...
    1. Crimean partisan 1974
      Crimean partisan 1974 9 August 2019 23: 31
      +10
      -Traugal fusel Me-262 in terms of aerodynamics, ...... and you saw in the front of the MiG-29 and Su-27,? and Tu-160 ????
      -The location of the engines in the Yak-25 is due to the need ... it was due to the need for a fuel reserve so that the 25th could barrage 4-5 hours relative to that time. time was like that
      - The British are the absolute leaders ... just not there, the Anglo-Saxons but not like the Saxons, they bought full shit from the Saxons in the form of Nin, the centrifuge didn’t pay off
      -Lame Me-262, .... miserable or not miserable, but a man named Kurt Velter flunked 31 bomber in 40 sorties, until now, those who have not reached flying fighter jets
      normal topic?
      1. Andrey Shmelev
        Andrey Shmelev 10 August 2019 00: 26
        +4
        and you saw in front


        who saw, that nonsense does not write)

        Wretched Me-262


        sounds like he personally developed the F-22 alone;)
      2. Santa Fe
        10 August 2019 08: 47
        -1
        Crimean partisans receive a special award for the wildest comment, consisting of selected delirium

        1. Kurt Welter flew night fighters. Almost all of his victories were won at night, on piston fock wolves and so on. And where is reactive Schwalbe?

        2. Ning did not justify himself. In total, 6000 silts and 13000 twigs built with these engines, the most massive fighter jet in history

        Also, as the sail with which the sailors suffered for 5000 years, until they came up with a gas turbine, didn’t pay off, it justified right away)))

        3. How the placement of engines in nacelles could increase the fuel supply of the Yak-25.
        The reason for this arrangement is the bulkiness of engines of the required power, which cannot be placed otherwise
        1. Crimean partisan 1974
          Crimean partisan 1974 10 August 2019 10: 03
          +6
          why are you swimming so shallow ???? award .... the reward is supposed to me, I shoot in order

          1 "Kurt Welter flew night fighters. Almost all of his victories were won at night, on piston Focke-Wolves, etc. What does the jet Schwalbe have to do with it?"
          here I send santafe to Mikhail Zefirov, this man is saturated with archival dust
          2. Ning did not justify himself. A total of 6000 sludges and 13000 blinks were built with these engines, .. well built, and then, the MiG-19 with an axial drive, the MiG-21 with an axial drive, the Su-7 with an axial drive and so on into the future, everything with an axial drive, the only one where VK- 1 took root so it is in the fire department as a gas-gas fire extinguishing vehicle
          3.How placing the engine in the engine nacelles could increase the fuel supply of the Yak-25 ....... because the fuselage of the Yak-25, like the Yak-28, was a tank with a heater for maximum barrage time
          so I don’t need a prize, give me a reward
          1. DrVintorez
            DrVintorez 10 August 2019 10: 51
            +2
            Quote: Crimean partisan 1974

            so I don’t need a prize, give me a reward

            I'm not proud, I agree to the medal (s) =)
            never try to prove Kaptsova anything. if you are right, it will begin to find fault with words. and then it just merges, runs its own cartoons (and he has a lot of them), it will put down minuses. his articles are skipped on VO just to revive comments. de facto kaptsov is a simple troll, by the way, quite thick.
        2. DrVintorez
          DrVintorez 10 August 2019 10: 13
          +2
          Quote: Santa Fe
          Crimean partisan receives a special award

          about how. got from his bins and shared? =)))
      3. Elturisto
        Elturisto 10 August 2019 09: 57
        0
        Don’t poke .... give me the link ... or is it a rattle? Read the German tales of Hartman or Rudel for the night ... don’t be overjoyed ...
        1. Crimean partisan 1974
          Crimean partisan 1974 10 August 2019 11: 03
          0
          Don’t poke .... give me the link ..... read more at your leisure, and stop switching to a particular one, what’s the problem with the crisis? read and be good to you
          and to the article about memoirs, there are quite a few emotions, I am not interested in this, I am mostly interested in the works of "bookworms"
      4. fighter angel
        fighter angel 10 August 2019 10: 25
        -5
        Crimean partisan 1974
        Nope, not a topic!
        "Jet" Ace-fighter No. 1 - Evgeny Pepeliaev - 26 shot down,
        "Jet" Ace-fighter No. 2 - Nikolay Sutyagin - 23 shot down.
        Who is Kurt Welter - is unknown, as well as his 31 "swamped", apparently, this is some kind of fascist chameo who gobbled up the "chocolate wing" with pervethine, and therefore trying to make everyone else believe in his hallucinations? Another fan of recording fired planes as "littered" ones. Victim of the PCF arbitrariness in the Luftwaffe.
        1. Crimean partisan 1974
          Crimean partisan 1974 10 August 2019 10: 58
          0
          Kangel the fighter .... then such a Kurt Welter
          read at your leisure, to help archival works of Mikhail Zefirov. the aircraft shot down by this pilot has a fixation of the side numbers and codes of the units to which they belonged since they fell in the territory of the Reich
          But the fact that Pepeliaev, Sutyagin, Shchukin Kramarenko and many of the 64th Air Corps showed incredible efficiency ... without words, the more they were no different from the Schwalb pilots. even worse. ----- there were no radio direction finders, the HP-37 gave out so much powder gases into the entrance tunnel that the VK-1 began to "sneeze" there were no anti-overload devices at all, then, with the forces of only two divisions, our pilots slowed down the UN coalition ... that's the truth
          1. fighter angel
            fighter angel 10 August 2019 11: 09
            -1
            Horseradish partisan.

            About the sacrifice of pervetin.
            They wrote to you already above that he was a night light and did not fly in a Schwalbe.
            What hasn’t come yet?
            And read the zephyr, poodle and constable toll yourself.
            They have no faith. Preferred by other authors.
            1. Crimean partisan 1974
              Crimean partisan 1974 10 August 2019 11: 14
              +4
              it’s not worth it to switch to particular ones in a boorish way, or you won’t have enough saliva, can you print on a topic? print, and that rudeness will not bring to good
              1. fighter angel
                fighter angel 10 August 2019 18: 38
                0
                So there!
                It's a shame when they answer your rudeness?
                On the "poke"?
                To bullying a nickname?
                Immediately after all, after all, the Crimean partisan hurts and becomes insulted, right?
                Rudeness yes, it certainly will not bring to good!
                On the topic, I printed everything above.
                1. fighter angel
                  fighter angel 11 August 2019 22: 20
                  0
                  Crimean Parmesan.
                  "can you print anything?"
                  Is that always what you will say?
                  I am sure that you should not be so. Apparent simplicity and brevity in your, this case, is not a "sister of talent", but rather an indicator of the level of marginality.
                  Sorry if I offended inadvertently.
                  I’ll write to you about the subject of your adoration, otherwise you’ll still think that according to Kurt Velter you have no equal ...
                  What is Kurt Welter.
                  We turn to the World Aviation encyclopedia, section Military aircraft, file Me-262, section - "night jet".
                  Briefly so as not to bore you.
                  In November 1944, the Commando-Welter was formed, the only combat unit of the Me-262V-1a / U-1 night interceptors, commanded by Lieutenant Welter, who flew as an instructor until 1943, and then turned out to be one of the pioneers of jet aviation in the Luftwaffe. Probably (there is no exact confirmation of this !!!) Welter was the first to shoot down an enemy plane on a jet interceptor at night. November 27, 1944 POSSIBLE !!! the British "Mosquito" became its victim. Welter's team never had more than 12 vehicles in service, with some sources referring to this unit as 10 / NJG-11. The results of the hostilities, again, STATED, BUT NOT CONFIRMED !!! more than modest. So, you have to disappoint. Over the entire period of its existence, which is 5-6 months, Velter-commando declared only 48, allegedly shot down. It turns out that, on average, a group shot down 8 planes per month. In a week, about 2 planes went out! I emphasize, UNCONFIRMED !!! Amazing "performance", is not it ?! This is despite the fact that the sky at this time was simply teeming with Allied aircraft! Day and night! For some reason, Welter did not account for any of those shot down by the group, so he is not among the "jet" aces of the Luftwaffe.
                  It is possible that all the data of his victories were destroyed by him, along with all the documentation of the "Welter Commando", in early May 1945. The reason for this is simple - Kurt rushed to the British on May 7, and so that they would not make claims to him about their losses, he destroyed all information about it. Well, so as not to spoil relations with the new owners.
                  Therefore, you have chosen the wrong model for worship. Speaking in your slang, "not a normal topic" is not a norm at all.
                  I would understand, for example, if you mentioned Weissennberger (8 shot down on the Me-262), or Bucher (12 shot down on the Me-262), or, at worst - Chall, after all, he shot down 14 on the Schwalbe .. And Welter got a shot and deprived himself of his victories. Who now and what can prove about him?
                  Well, in short, something like this ...
                  Regarding the marshmallow, there is information that SK has become interested in the dude. More precisely, his "exploration" activities in terms of the history of the Luftwaffe in World War II. It seemed to someone, somewhere above that all Mishin's literary activity was aimed at glorifying and glorifying Nazism ... That's it! So you are more careful there. For reposts, articles are already given, but here are whole "chronicles" of the Luftwaffe. Take care of yourself...
                  1. fighter angel
                    fighter angel 11 August 2019 22: 21
                    0
                    For parmesan, sorry.
                    T9, nothing can be done ...
                  2. Crimean partisan 1974
                    Crimean partisan 1974 12 August 2019 08: 09
                    +2
                    fighter angel
                    "What is Kurt Welter .... In November 1944, the" Commando-Welter "was formed," ..... it was formed a little earlier than November, but this unit, (just like the unit on the Arad, better known as the "Commando Bonin "), out of only two units of schwalbs, and when 10 / NJG-11 (a squadron, according to our concepts) was formed, it had only two pairs of schwalbs
                    "so as not to spoil relations with the new owners" ... that is why its new owners "left" in a parallel world, just like Schnaufer
                    .
                    Regarding the marshmallow, there is information that the dude is interested in SK. ..... it is a pity that the Investigative Committee was not interested in the works of andryukha smirnov, what is only his work "Combat work of Soviet and German aviation in the Great Patriotic War", "mine camph" is resting
                    Therefore, you didn’t choose the model for admiration ...... the goal of our discussion, IF THE SCHULBY CHANGE THE CHARGE OF THE WAR, I think YES, just like the two Red Army divisions on the MiG-15 in Korea and the enemy was pretty strong, and here it is worth asking a question. But how did the Soviet MiG pilot differ from the Schwalb pilot? but nothing worse, worse, powder gases fell from the NS-37 gunshot into the air intake tunnel and the attack often broke down because the engine began to cough, BUT these two divisions stood 38 parallel, and half a century later this border was proudly called ALLEY OF MIGS
                    "So you are more careful there." ... well, I'm not bulk, the more I have something to cover
                    1. fighter angel
                      fighter angel 12 August 2019 09: 35
                      0
                      Crimean partisan.

                      "IS THE STATE OF SCHWALBA TO CHANGE THE PROGRESS OF THE WAR, I think YES, exactly like the two divisions of the Red Army on the MiG-15 in Korea ..."

                      I agree, there would be such an opportunity if the Schwalbe were technically and technologically perfected, their production and maintenance were fine-tuned, the tactics of its application would be worked out, the infrastructure for them would be ready, and experienced and trained pilots, not take-off and landing ...
                      The MiG-15 pilots were different from the Schwalb pilots, that's why ours defended the 38th and kicked their asses!
                      1. Crimean partisan 1974
                        Crimean partisan 1974 12 August 2019 09: 53
                        +1
                        Well, at the end, they came to a consensus, the most important thing about shwalb ... and I personally am glad that this would affect the course of WWII, especially in the 42nd, because the shop was also brought to mind only by the year 45, and MiGs in Korea generally had a bunch of unresolved problems only when Pepeliaev brought Sabr something cleared up, and very during
                      2. fighter angel
                        fighter angel 12 August 2019 10: 25
                        0
                        Yes, Georgich should be remembered with a kind word.
                        Especially today, on the day of the Air Fleet ...
                        Cool pilot and man! Eternal flight to him!
                        Although I prefer 19 August, Soviet Air Force Day ...
                      3. Crimean partisan 1974
                        Crimean partisan 1974 12 August 2019 10: 40
                        +1
                        Do we have an Air Fleet ??? in the course of the VKS now .... well, since I was associating with 19 on August 1991, it crashed tight, I just at the urgent KMB went to PSK Baskunchak the 3rd brigade of the PSP KChF, and then fleet was redistributed, in the USSR, to give the debt to the motherland, but went ashore in another country where no one needed it with a military man with a RF stamp
              2. fighter angel
                fighter angel 11 August 2019 22: 25
                0
                Crimean Parmesan.
                "can you print anything?"
                Is that always what you will say?
                I am sure that you should not be so. Apparent simplicity and brevity in your, this case, is not a "sister of talent", but rather an indicator of the level of marginality.
                Sorry if I offended inadvertently.
                I’ll write to you about the subject of your adoration, otherwise you’ll still think that according to Kurt Velter you have no equal ...
                What is Kurt Welter.
                We turn to the World Aviation encyclopedia, section Military aircraft, file Me-262, section - "night jet".
                Briefly so as not to bore you.
                In November 1944, the Commando-Welter was formed, the only combat unit of the Me-262V-1a / U-1 night interceptors, commanded by Lieutenant Welter, who flew as an instructor until 1943, and then turned out to be one of the pioneers of jet aviation in the Luftwaffe. Probably (there is no exact confirmation of this !!!) Welter was the first to shoot down an enemy plane on a jet interceptor at night. November 27, 1944 POSSIBLE !!! the British "Mosquito" became its victim. Welter's team never had more than 12 vehicles in service, with some sources referring to this unit as 10 / NJG-11. The results of the hostilities, again, STATED, BUT NOT CONFIRMED !!! more than modest. So, you have to disappoint. Over the entire period of its existence, which is 5-6 months, Velter-commando declared only 48, allegedly shot down. It turns out that, on average, a group shot down 8 planes per month. In a week, about 2 planes went out! I emphasize, UNCONFIRMED !!! Amazing "performance", is not it ?! This is despite the fact that the sky at this time was simply teeming with Allied aircraft! Day and night! For some reason, Welter did not account for any of those shot down by the group, so he is not among the "jet" aces of the Luftwaffe.
                It is possible that all the data of his victories were destroyed by him, along with all the documentation of the "Welter Commando", in early May 1945. The reason for this is simple - Kurt rushed to the British on May 7, and so that they would not make claims to him about their losses, he destroyed all information about it. Well, so as not to spoil relations with the new owners.
                Therefore, you have chosen the wrong model for worship. Speaking in your slang, "not a normal topic" is not a norm at all.
                I would understand, for example, if you mentioned Weissennberger (8 shot down on the Me-262), or Bucher (12 shot down on the Me-262), or, at worst - Chall, after all, he shot down 14 on the Schwalbe .. And Welter got a shot and deprived himself of his victories. Who now and what can prove about him?
                Well, in short, something like this ...
                Regarding the marshmallow, there is information that SK has become interested in the dude. More precisely, his "exploration" activities in terms of the history of the Luftwaffe in World War II. It seemed to someone, somewhere above that all Mishin's literary activity was aimed at glorifying and glorifying Nazism ... That's it! So you are more careful there. For reposts, articles are already given, but here are whole "chronicles" of the Luftwaffe. Take care of yourself...
  23. Fitter65
    Fitter65 9 August 2019 21: 33
    +3
    Subsequently, the Meteors were removed from the front line and sent to intercept the V-1:
    And where before the Meteors fought on the front line?
  24. Dooplet11
    Dooplet11 9 August 2019 21: 50
    +5
    The thrust ratio of Me.262 was less than the thrust ratio of piston aircraft.

    Which ones? At what altitude and speed?
    Oleg, are you unfamiliar with this ?:
    1. Dooplet11
      Dooplet11 12 August 2019 07: 56
      +1
      Anyone who has been minus either does not know what the altitude characteristic of the engine is and how the high-speed pressure affects the efficiency of the propulsion system. Or is it "an artist's offense"? Then forgivable. laughing
  25. Mooh
    Mooh 9 August 2019 22: 05
    +6
    Well, how much can one and the same. This article is already more elaborate, but why is Swallow compared to post-war aircraft? Naturally, a 42-year-old plane is worse than a 48-year-old plane, let's compare it with the MiG-29? Schalbe's classmates are Bell P-59 Airacomet, Gloster Meteor Mk III, MiG-9, Yak-15, La-150, and not Shuting Star, MiG-15 or Meteor on Dervents and Nina.
    The only thing I agree with is that the plane was still raw and its mass production was the agony of the Reich.
  26. tlauicol
    tlauicol 9 August 2019 22: 14
    -4
    Oleg again took away the candy from the children, and also explained that sweet is harmful good
    1. lucul
      lucul 9 August 2019 22: 28
      -3
      Oleg again took away the candy from the children, and also explained that sweet is harmful

      Kghmmmmm .....
      For the FIRST time, for all the time (IN) - I agree with you)))
  27. AAK
    AAK 9 August 2019 22: 23
    +1
    Dear portal moderator, I ask you to consider the possibility of adjusting electronic filters in relation to cutting off from the text of comments literary and common words that do not carry personal insult to any of the site visitors. This is to the fact of auto-erasing the word "" from the comment, which does not have an offensive meaning in relation to anyone, but is a semantic part of the comment
  28. Operator
    Operator 9 August 2019 22: 24
    -6
    Quote: Dooplet11
    Just for information. UMO-004С had traction 1000kg

    Just to clarify: the only production engine was the Jumo-004B with 900 kgs thrust.
    1. Dooplet11
      Dooplet11 10 August 2019 10: 36
      +3
      Just to clarify: the only production engine was the Jumo-004B with 900 kgs thrust.
      -
      For those in the tank:

  29. Operator
    Operator 9 August 2019 23: 25
    -8
    A scandalous detail about the Me-262 - the American F-80 Shooting Star fighters, after five years of working in production and operation in 1950-51, took an active part in the Korean War and flew 15000 sorties only during the first four months, but only as light bomber, because when trying to use the F-80 as a fighter, he simply merged in battle piston Yak-3 fighters, which were flown by "North Korean" pilots.

    Therefore, the "Schwalbe", who have no analogues, were very lucky that they were not ravaged by Soviet fighters on the Eastern Front.
    1. Mooh
      Mooh 10 August 2019 00: 21
      0
      Well, how can you smash such nonsense with a smart look? It hurts her !!! Have you ever read anything about the war in Korea except Komsomolskaya Pravda? Or are you confusing the Yak-3 and MiG-15? Why was Kozhedub sent to Korea?
      1. Operator
        Operator 10 August 2019 00: 41
        -4
        Learn the materiel - the landing of American "UN" troops on the Korean Peninsula took place on September 15, 1950, and the first flight of the MiG-15 took place only on November 30, 1950, the MiG-15 completely replaced the Yak-3 only on December 30, 1950.

        Therefore, I wrote about the first 15000 F-80 bombing sorties in less than four months of the 1950 year.
        1. Mooh
          Mooh 10 August 2019 07: 31
          +1
          Wow, they did read something. Why was Kozhedub sent to Korea?
    2. tomket
      tomket 10 August 2019 01: 00
      +3
      Quote: Operator
      Therefore, the "Schwalbe", who have no analogues, were very lucky that they were not ravaged by Soviet fighters on the Eastern Front.

      Well, no matter how the Germans do not send the Me-262 to the Eastern Front. They generally knew why they built it and for what purposes it should be used. On the eastern front hundreds and thousands of "Fortresses" did not shine, and therefore episodes of the famous clash of Soviet pilots with the Me-262 can be counted on one hand. And one hand will be more than enough.
      1. DrVintorez
        DrVintorez 10 August 2019 10: 15
        +1
        Quote: tomket
        Soviet pilots with the Me-262 can be counted on the fingers. And one hand will be more than enough.

        and, by the way, even such a small number of clashes was enough for the leather jacket to crash.
        1. tomket
          tomket 10 August 2019 10: 48
          +2
          Quote: DrVintorez
          and, by the way, even such a small number of clashes was enough for the leather jacket to crash.

          By the way, Kozhedub never claimed that he shot down the Me-262, he was just talking about a jet fighter. It was only later that they figured out for him, and what kind of jet fighter could be besides the Me-262. In "Aviation and Cosmonautics" there is a detailed analysis of what Kozhedub shot down then. With proofs, as they like to say now.
          1. DrVintorez
            DrVintorez 10 August 2019 10: 54
            0
            Quote: tomket
            "Aviation and Cosmonautics" contains a detailed analysis of what Kozhedub shot down then

            where can I read a link? interesting. need to fill in the blanks =)
    3. Dooplet11
      Dooplet11 10 August 2019 11: 08
      +2
      because when trying to use the F-80 as a fighter, he simply blew the Yak-3 piston fighters in battle, which were flown by the "North Korean" pilots.
      - can I have proofs? The number of battles, the ratio of losses? Just don't need "murziloks", preferably either ZhBD, or reports of pilots.
      Research by historians speaks of fights with varying success:
      "The Shootingstars, which appeared again only towards the end of the raid, rushed into the attack. Another air battle ensued. A pair of Jacob confidently took the initiative in their own hands, attacked two F-80s from the 36th FBS 8th FBW, piloted by Lieutenants John Thomas (1Lt John B. Thomas) and Charles Wurster (1LT. USAF Charles A. WURSTER). Wurster, taking advantage of the "jet", quickly got out of the impact and took an advantageous position for the attack. It was not difficult for the lieutenant to shoot down the Yak -9. The pilot of the piston fighter jumped out of the cockpit, but his parachute did not open. In turn, Lieutenant Thomas noticed the enemy only after the leader of the pair shouted to him over the radio: “Bandit at six o'clock.” Thomas broke away from the enemy and began to try to enter Yak in the tail. To the surprise of the Americans, the North Korean pilot was in no hurry to take his legs, but began to impose tactics of maneuverable combat on bends. Nevertheless, Thomas was still able to reach his opponent. In the sky of Suwon, the parachute canopy opened up - the pilot of the second "Yak" was more fortunate. As an additional confirmation of the victory, Thomas made several passes by the hovering Korean and filmed him with a photo machine gun. In their reports on the battle, both Americans noted the aggressiveness and flying skills of the Yakov pilots. The squadron's public opinion decided that two World War II veterans who had fought in the Imperial Japanese Air Force had been shot down. It really could have been the pilots who switched from Zero to Yaki, but with the same success the "Soviet" Koreans.
      A gracious picture of the official reports of American pilots about complete dominance is violated by the statement of the North Koreans about the two F-80C shot down in this battle.
      This is how volunteer historians of the 8 wing, Korean war veterans, Capt. Scott Miller and Sergeant John Sullivan tell about this battle.
      “On June 30th, our planes attacked a marshalling yard near Suwon. Two pilots narrowly escaped death. Lt. John Thomas's Shootingstar was damaged by anti-aircraft fire, and Edwin Johnson's by a taut cable. On Johnson's plane, both wing tanks and wingtips were torn off. the wing had three or four ragged penetrations. The visor and canopy were removed. The upper rudder and vertical stabilizer were cut, as were half of the left elevator and horizontal stabilizer. At 13 feet (000 km.) the aircraft the tail fell off, and Johnson was forced to jump. Leaving the plane, he hit the right stabilizer, which also fell off. After landing near Suwon, the pilot was picked up and ferried to Itatsuke, having escaped with a terrible headache. "
      So, no mention of a fight with enemy fighters, no "bandit" at six o'clock at Thomas's (whom he did not even notice), Johnson touches the cable near the ground and receives multiple damage to the aircraft (both wings, tail, upper fuselage) , rises on a collapsing plane by 4 thousand and jumps out ... The described damage does not correspond much to damage from wires (through holes in the wings?), and, on the contrary, is very similar to damage received as a result of a close range shooting of a gaping novice. And what sort of marshalling yard near Suwon did the Americans attack if North Korean troops were just crossing the Han River that day? "
      (http://artofwar.ru/f/foreign/text_0680.shtml)
      And the fact that the F-80 was simply poured in battle "is out of the question. As always and everywhere, the gasket was in charge!"
  30. BAI
    BAI 9 August 2019 23: 27
    +4
    The benefits of swept wings appear only at high speeds. Much larger than those on which the Me262 and its opponents flew - piston fighters.

    At high speed, the swept wing is not an advantage, but the only opportunity to fly. Did the author hear anything about spontaneously pulling into an uncontrolled dive? This is the fate of all direct wing aircraft at high speed. Bi-1, in particular, is a confirmation. This effect and methods of dealing with it were studied in the USSR precisely on Me-262.
  31. pro100y.belarus
    pro100y.belarus 9 August 2019 23: 50
    -3
    Good article. Corresponds to my attitude towards the last attempts of the Reich to change the course of the war with the help of various "miracle weapons".
    Here is just a small flaw - it would be more correct to write: "... but none of them became widespread and successful."
    And further. I want to say to fans of "Mercedes and Volkswagens" - go to the cemetery and bow to your ancestors. You did not become soap, thanks to them, which the "true Aryans" could not kill.
  32. D-Master
    D-Master 10 August 2019 00: 04
    +1
    Opus from Kaptsov. again solid kapets! Maybe the author should create a ruble of historical feuilleton and scribble his opuses there?
    1. pro100y.belarus
      pro100y.belarus 10 August 2019 07: 59
      -2
      Oh, this criticism. You create something useful in this life, except for evil posturing.
  33. tomket
    tomket 10 August 2019 01: 00
    0
    Quote: tomket
    Quote: Operator
    Therefore, the "Schwalbe", who have no analogues, were very lucky that they were not ravaged by Soviet fighters on the Eastern Front.

    Well, as if the Germans are not stupid, to send the Me-262 to the Eastern Front. They generally knew why they built it and for what purposes it should be used. On the eastern front, hundreds and thousands of "Fortresses" did not shine, therefore episodes of the famous clash of Soviet pilots with the Me-262 can be counted on one hand. And one hand will be more than enough.
  34. rubin6286
    rubin6286 10 August 2019 01: 08
    +3
    Any war wins the one whose moral-political, military and economic potential will be higher than that of the enemy and it is reasonable to assume that the winner possesses the best weapons, both qualitatively and quantitatively. It is unlikely that anyone will object that the war was the impetus for the development of scientific and technological progress and the growth of industrial production of the warring countries.

    Not only improved weapons models were created, but also fundamentally new ones that changed the traditional views on the nature and methods of warfare, the strategy and tactics of war on land, at sea and in the air.

    The advent of the German fighter Me-262 and Me-163 brought aviation to a qualitatively new level. The strategy and tactics of conducting air combat, the conditions for combat use, the requirements for the equipment of cabs, the quality of weapons and airfield facilities have changed. A new independent type of aviation appeared - air defense fighter aircraft.

    You can talk a lot about the advantages and disadvantages of the Me-262 and Me-163, argue and quote excerpts from books to each other. Good. even though they’ve read it, it’s now more important to rethink and understand what has been read and it’s more difficult. One thing remains certain - these machines were the first and in practice proved their capabilities in battle. All the rest (English “Gloucester Meteor”, American “Shooting Star”, “Benshi”, “Panther”, “Saber”, Soviet Yak-15, MiG-9, MiG-15) were created in peacetime and were more reliable and perfect . The experience of their combat use led to the adoption of guided and high-precision weapons.
    1. pro100y.belarus
      pro100y.belarus 10 August 2019 03: 03
      -3
      [quote = rubin6286] It is unlikely that anyone will object that the war was the impetus for the development of scientific and technological progress and the growth of industrial production of the warring countries.

      Of course, it is difficult to object to technological progress, looking at the jet plane with a bashfully hidden swastika on the keel and recalling the pre-war wooden biplanes. However, technological progress has also created an atomic bomb.
      It is unlikely that millions of those killed in the war would like to be at the cost of the development of technological progress.
      And here the question arises.
      Am I, you or any commentator on the forum ready to sacrifice my life, the lives of my children, grandchildren, close people for the sake of technological progress? In order to, after some time, the surviving people admire the weapons that killed you, and talk about an incredible leap in technological progress?
      I think the question is rhetorical.
      1. rubin6286
        rubin6286 10 August 2019 10: 55
        +3
        Dear Simple Belarus!

        You asked me not a rhetorical, but rather strange, if not stupid question: “Am I, you or any commentator at the Forum ready to sacrifice my life, the lives of my children, grandchildren, close people for the sake of technological progress?”

        Are you healthy?

        In the past war, the motivation was different and quite simple - some wanted to be masters and own the world, others for this had to become slaves. In June 1941, Belarus was the first on the path of fascist hordes. Those who resisted slavery were ruthlessly destroyed, regardless of gender and age. People were driven into captivity, shot, starved, but people did not submit. Every fourth Belarusian died, but in response to the mass atrocities there was a total destruction of the occupiers and their minions from among the policemen and traitors, barracks burned, warehouses of property, food and material supplies, flew downhill trains with personnel, weapons and equipment, railways, bridges, roads were destroyed. In fact, there were no “neutral” people in the territory occupied by the enemy. Some fought the enemy openly or underground, others, due to the prevailing circumstances, were forced to work for the invaders, carrying out acts of sabotage, while others chose the path of betrayal and cooperation with punishers.

        I don’t speak the Belarusian language and ask you to forgive me for spelling, but in the Belarusian partisan song there are such words: “... For bondage, for kaidans, cutters of Hitlertsau filthy, they didn’t resurrect the age of yana.”

        And what is scientific and technological progress? He is international. The swastika on the keel can be painted over, but not painted over the talent of designers. engineers, technicians, workers who created weapons. Their guilt in the fact that it then served no criminal purposes, since similar weapons were created in other countries. The Rauff brothers, the creators of the gas chamber, are war criminals who have received well-deserved punishment, but it never occurred to anyone to judge Ferdinand Porsche, E. Heikel, G. Schmeiser, etc.

        Talent is either there or not, it is, as they say, from God, and skill is not bought or sold. It is acquired, improved, inherited or dies with the owner.
        1. pro100y.belarus
          pro100y.belarus 10 August 2019 19: 23
          -1
          Quote: rubin6286
          Are you healthy?

          Thank. Healthy, except for age.
          Quote: rubin6286
          Every fourth Belarusian died

          You are mistaken, every third.
          My parents are not on this list, so I’m talking to you.
          I am sorry that you did not understand what I wanted to say.
          I'm sorry that people have a short memory.
          I am sorry that Porsche, Heinkel, Tank, Schmeiser were not hanged in Nuremberg.
          I am sorry that Hartman, Rudel and others like them were not shot in aerial combat.
          I'm sorry that Kolya s Urengoy has appeared.
          I am sorry that they did not clean out all the Bandera from the underground and all sorts of pharions were born to them.
          I am sorry that the last people who know what war is are dead.
          Play further in flight simulators and until hoarseness discuss flight performance characteristics.
          I don’t feel sorry for you, miserable.
          1. rubin6286
            rubin6286 11 August 2019 02: 42
            -1
            This year we will celebrate the 75th anniversary of the victory of the Soviet people over fascist Germany and militaristic Japan in the Great Patriotic War. Less and less of its participants are still alive, but people remember how much the right to life and freedom was won and how the song says: “As long as I remember, I live!” The losers also remember the war, primarily because for any nation, war is a disaster that brings pain, suffering and the bitterness of loss to every family. At the end of the First World War, the international community developed a number of legal norms, called the Conventions that govern the rules of warfare on land, at sea and in the air, the obligations of the parties to treat civilians, prisoners of war, the work of the International Organization of the Red Cross, etc. Persons and organizations that knowingly violate these legal norms are war criminals and are subject to trial by the International Tribunal. The Wehrmacht, Kriegsmarine, Luftwaffe are not considered by the world community to be criminal organizations, in contrast to the SS and its divisions - SD, Gestapo. Therefore, it is wrong and unacceptable to declare the entire surviving enemy army criminals and demand reprisals against it at the end of the war.

            Winner is characterized by generosity and mercy. I have no doubt that the Ukrainian, Baltic nationalists who collaborated with the enemy Chechens, Ingush, Karachais, Crimean Tatars, Georgians and Vlasovites, whose guilt of war crimes was proved, suffered a deserved punishment.

            The fact that nationalism revived in Ukraine and the Baltic states in the 2000s was primarily the fault of the Soviet party leadership in the center and in the localities, illiterate and ossified, hiding behind sophisticated demagogy and Marxist-utopian phraseology .. Serious omissions were made in the development of the economy countries, the decline in the standard of living of peoples, national politics and their final result was the collapse of the USSR.

            With the transition to a market economy, negative trends in the communication of people, a decline in the authority of the family, and a reappraisal of universal human values ​​emerged. The lack of respect for the person of work has led to the development of the cult of profit, degradation and exposure of the vices of society - prostitution, theft of public funds, multi-level corruption, bribery, organized crime, etc. The appearance of the “boy from Urengoy” is a vivid evidence of the degradation of the educational system, culture and family education in the country.
            The lack of measures of state coercion and censorship in the media, legal education of the population contributes to the formation of an atmosphere of licentiousness and permissiveness.

            This is the case in today's Russia. I think that you have it.
            The interest of young people in flight simulators and the discussion of topics on the VO website testifies to their interest in the flight profession, especially among those who, for whatever reason, were unable to fulfill their dreams. Agree, this is better than using certain drugs, smelling glue, changing your traditional orientation and becoming a carrier of sexually transmitted diseases, or joining criminal groups like AUE.

            In fact, the Russian language called the mentally abnormal, mentally retarded people miserable. Do you think that all commentators on the site are so? And who are you then?
            1. pro100y.belarus
              pro100y.belarus 11 August 2019 06: 55
              -2
              Do you know what our difference is?
              I have my own opinion, but you do not.
              You should write articles for the Pravda newspaper - a lot of letters and about nothing.
              For this, I think it is useless and harmful to communicate with you. Farewell.
  35. sergevl
    sergevl 10 August 2019 01: 12
    +9
    Here is a fighter made by the French in the 50 years. And in order not to hear again about the wrong layout, read how the Jews on it completely bent the Arabs.
    1. sergevl
      sergevl 10 August 2019 01: 24
      +3
      But such an airplane was built by Ilyushin to replace the Il-28.
      1. sergevl
        sergevl 10 August 2019 01: 26
        +3


        And so, Ilyushin planned to develop the IL-28 with the help of Mikulinsky engines.
        1. sergevl
          sergevl 10 August 2019 01: 27
          +4


          Bad circuit? Tupolev did not think so, and made the Tu-14 according to such a scheme.
    2. Santa Fe
      10 August 2019 02: 22
      0
      On what only Jews did not bend the Arabs

      As soon as the engine appeared - the French made a mirage, a masterpiece of the era
    3. tomket
      tomket 10 August 2019 10: 51
      +4
      Quote: sergevl
      Here is a fighter made by the French in the 50 years. And in order not to hear again about the wrong layout, read how the Jews on it completely bent the Arabs.

      Oleg has a standard excuse in this regard. It’s an exterminator, and this is an attack aircraft more. And the chassis layout does not meet the strict parameters that Oleg sets. Not Feng Shui. So it does not count.
      1. sergevl
        sergevl 11 August 2019 01: 08
        +1
        Duc, after all, "grandfather" said = to make a schnell-bomber out of a swallow. The French did it. ) And Yakovlev, when he was building his Yak-25, Yak-26, Yak-25R did as "grandfather" bequeathed. ))))) joke))))
        By the way, Oleg in his second "anti-fascist" opus about the "Schwalbe" no longer mentions the chassis.
        But the fact is that the layout is never a fascist or Nazi or Hitler.
        Layout - is more successful or less in the light of certain requirements. And aluminum also does not know whether it is fascist or Soviet, or maybe democratic. Know yourself performs its functions of forming a crystal lattice. The plane is just a complex construction that incorporates the work of many people. Performs its function - takes off and lands. And here comes the propaganda. How to evaluate - this is a problem on the aircraft and its designers, and each is a personal matter.
        How good is a twin-engine layout like a Schwalbe and a dozen other jet aircraft? Even in the screw era, it became clear that in the nose, free from the engine, you can place:
        1. Battery of 4 guns (mosquito, bofayter, Bf-110, etc., etc.)
        2. The same thing + radar.
        3. The cabin of the navigator.
        So they were placed on jet aircraft in the same way as on propeller aircraft. )
        Moreover, under the center wing in the fuselage, you can arrange a bomb bomb.
        So they arranged it.
        1. Andrey Shmelev
          Andrey Shmelev 11 August 2019 10: 40
          0
          How good is a twin-engine layout like a Schwalbe and a dozen other jet aircraft?


          It is very simple: in 1939-1942 they had no idea how to calculate correctly complex channels of air intakes. Therefore, they were made as simple as possible.
          1. sergevl
            sergevl 11 August 2019 12: 04
            +2
            Complex channels appeared simultaneously with powerful engines.
            On low-power turbojet engines, the channels are as short as possible to reduce losses. And while the channels were long, the speed was low. )



            Here is a similar design by Wilina of Professor Heinkel. So read not Kaptsov’s troll-trills, but the usual encyclopedia, since now it’s not 40 thick volumes, but just a bookmark in the browser.
            1. sergevl
              sergevl 11 August 2019 12: 06
              +1


              Here is the first jet in the world - Gloucester Pioneer. Due to a weak engine, high losses in a long air channel result in a speed of 755 km per hour, and guns in the wing at best.
            2. Andrey Shmelev
              Andrey Shmelev 11 August 2019 12: 24
              +2
              So read not Kaptsov’s troll-trills, but the usual encyclopedia, since now it’s not 40 thick volumes, but just a bookmark in the browser.


              didn't understand sir

              I kind of wrote in Russian in white that the Germans chose a scheme with as short and simple channels as possible in order to fully use the engine thrust (because the 262 has two under the wings, including)
              at the same time, it is presumed that the arrogant Saxons were tormented with channels that are not only longer, but most importantly have a more complex form, which then could not be qualitatively calculated

              we don’t know what the Nagnolaxes have an abnormally high loss due to turbulence, etc., but we presume that for 262 the absence of problems with air intakes, the first reason to consider to find out why it was faster

              What is your pathetic attack?
              1. sergevl
                sergevl 11 August 2019 17: 08
                +1
                The call to read the encyclopedia is not for you) you are so competent), but in general for the readers.
  36. Zeev Zeev
    Zeev Zeev 10 August 2019 01: 46
    +5
    I have a replica here ...
    "Schwalbe" was created as a fighter-interceptor, and its main task was to fight bombers. And not even with something relatively small like the "Mitchells" or "Bostons", but with "fortresses" and "liberators", large, durable, well-armed machines, going in a tight defensive order, and even under the cover of fighters. The only way to deal with them was the "hit and run" tactic, without getting involved in a "dog dump" with "Thunderbolts" and "Mustangs". And this tactic of the Me-262 was quite successfully used, taking advantage of its high speed and very powerful weapons. By the way, the allies for the fight against bombers are twin-engine vehicles with whole batteries of cannons, which in one salvo could destroy either the Heinkel, the Junkers, or the FW-200 Condor. And apart from the well-deserved "Lightnings" the Germans were quite hunted by both "Mosquito" and "Beaufighter". Even in the USSR there was a heavy Pe-3 fighter, near Stalingrad, successfully hunting for transport workers who supplied the 6th Army. Only speed was not critical for all these vehicles, since the Germans organized escort and cover rather poorly due to the lack of the necessary methods and orders.
    And after the war, there was the same heavy jet fighter, with two engines, which along the way (like the Meteor) played the role of a bomber and high-speed reconnaissance aircraft. From him, by the way, and licked the layout for the Yak-25. Sud-Ouest Aviation (SNCASO) SO 4050 Vautour II
    1. sergevl
      sergevl 10 August 2019 01: 54
      +4

      And here is the American reconnaissance and bomber aircraft, in which the engines are located under a direct wing. There is a fighter of the same scheme. Curtis XP 87.
  37. Mikhail Tynda
    Mikhail Tynda 10 August 2019 03: 05
    +3
    [i] Given the scanty number of Yak-25s built, as well as their "long" career in the Air Force, it should be recognized: apparently, this model did not receive recognition because of its features. It is possible that other fighters with engine nacelles placed under the planes were born within the walls of the design bureau, but not one became massive and successful. [Quote] [/ quote]
    And what do you have against the Yak-25 in service with the machine stood for 12 years ... Scanty series? But it's like 638 cars ... minuscule? What about the Yak-28? More than a thousand vehicles ... modifications from an interceptor to a bomber. The Me 262, Meteor, and others were faced with a different task: is it possible to build a serial jet fighter or not? It turned out you can. Then it was up to other cars.
    1. sergevl
      sergevl 10 August 2019 10: 06
      0

      And this is the Egyptian Messerschmitt of 1965. It’s quite a two-winged one, and even with a triangular wing. The engine came in handy for the Indian Marat Kurt Tank.
      1. sergevl
        sergevl 10 August 2019 10: 13
        +2

        But the plane, made under the scheme of the engine under the wing with Ukrainian OZ. That is, the scheme lasted at least 50 years after the war ...
  38. DrVintorez
    DrVintorez 10 August 2019 10: 00
    +5
    this is a tin ... compare me262 and shootingstar, calling them peers, this must be managed!
    Thunder and Schwalbe is created for the same ...
    kapotsovschina blooms and smells.
    and in general throughout the article - nonsense.
    let the author get a hangover, otherwise it's hard for him to see. very hard ...
  39. 2112vda
    2112vda 10 August 2019 10: 21
    0
    Quote: rayruav
    the British brought the engines only after the war, if the German engineers had the same conditions, whose question would be better

    In the USSR, before the war, Lyulka and Uvarov were engaged in gas turbine engines. Uvarov was engaged in turboprop, GTE Cradle. At Lyulka, by the time the war began, the engine had a readiness level of about 70%. The fact that our work on the gas turbine engine met with strong resistance from the "piston engines" is also a fact. Take at least the same "technical miracle" in the form of the Balandin engine. The money was spent on "a long whistle into space." The USSR lagged behind the Western countries very seriously, the legacy of the tsarist regime. Buying a license for Rolls-Royces was the right decision of our management.
    I see no reason to "break lances" about the English or German GTEs, the engines were "raw" had both positive and negative sides. A bet on a "miracle weapon" is always dangerous, you can not get sickly from an opponent who has outdated weapons but more motivated. So all the disputes over these articles are about nothing.
  40. Molot1979
    Molot1979 10 August 2019 10: 38
    +1
    Well, of course, not the Me-109K alone. There was also a variant with Focke-Wulfs-190. But, in general, the author is right. The dispute about the development strategy of the German Air Force in the last year of the war is a pointless question. And not only because both options are worse. And also because. that planes alone cannot turn the war back, but on the ground the Germans were losing steadily and without options. So what difference does it make which way did the Luftwaffe go? In the best case, it would have somewhat prolonged the struggle in the West, but in the East the assault on Berin would have started anyway in April 1945. So the subject of the conversation is the same as that of the Tigers against increasing the production of modernized "fours".
  41. Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 10 August 2019 11: 13
    +1
    It is more correct to create a theater of operations with lower technical risks and install it instead of piston engines on airplanes. when the power of piston engines approaches 2000hp, a theater becomes easier.
  42. Jarserge
    Jarserge 10 August 2019 16: 33
    +2
    I agree with the author - "All the successes of the Germans and our losses are a consequence of their better organization" Only now you should not forget that the USSR both economically and in military development made a leap, from partisanism during the civil war to a more or less orderly state in some 10 years. such high-speed jerks do not pass without leaving a trace, both in the economy and in the army
  43. Operator
    Operator 10 August 2019 16: 34
    0
    Quote: Andrey Shmelev
    Oleg does not understand that how the efficiency of the propeller group decreases with increasing air flow rate, and therefore is not able to answer the question: why is the Me-262 faster than the P-47

    You don’t understand that a fighter is not an artillery shell and that flight performance is not limited to speed laughing
    1. Andrey Shmelev
      Andrey Shmelev 11 August 2019 11: 24
      0
      You don’t understand that a fighter is not an artillery shell and that flight performance is not limited to laughing speed


      no, you don’t understand that flight performance shell not limited to speed
      laughing

      but, let’s not torment Oleg, let him figure it out with speed, the rest later;)
    2. Dooplet11
      Dooplet11 12 August 2019 12: 01
      +2
      You don’t understand that a fighter is not an artillery shell and that flight performance is not limited to laughing speed

      These people also did not understand anything about "sausage scraps" ?:


      1. Operator
        Operator 12 August 2019 13: 15
        -4
        I already told you that immediately after the first use of the Me-262 against US-British bombers, they began to use the simplest tactical technique - sharp maneuvering at the very beginning of the Me-262 attack.

        As a result, they have almost twice the speed (800 km / h), close to zero maneuverability (due to the surge of engines and a small area of ​​the tail unit) and cannons-"cigarette butts" with mortar ballistics (4-meter fall of the trajectory of the projectile at 100 meters distance shooting) "Schwalbe" elementary slipped the line of opening fire, after which, in the worst case, they became victims of numerous machine guns of bombers or, at best, returned for refueling at their airfield (the concrete runway of which 1200 meters long as a magnet attracted enemy bombers ).

        PS And tact yes - the employees of the public relations department of the Messerschmidt company were great masters of promoting branded products on the market of the Third Reich laughing
        1. Dooplet11
          Dooplet11 12 August 2019 13: 30
          +2
          I already told you that immediately after the first use of Me-262 against the Allied bombers, they began to use the simplest tactical technique - a sharp maneuver of the bombers at the very beginning of the Me-262 attack.
          - proof of the "sharp maneuvering" of bombers in the formation? Methodical instructions, such as, for example:


          maneuverability close to zero (due to surging of engines and small tail area)
          - proof with balancing curves and dependence of alpha crit on speed is possible?
          cannons - "cigarette butts" with mortar ballistics (4-meter fall of the trajectory of the projectile at 100 meters of firing distance) "
          - Is it possible to correlate this with the size of the target and the capabilities of the sight? And ballistic tables for MK-108?
          In the meantime, to the proofs, what you have already said is only your personal opinion.
          1. Operator
            Operator 12 August 2019 14: 09
            -2
            Quote: Dooplet11
            what you have already said is only your personal opinion.

            I say this on the basis of three articles and several hundred comments to them (with proofs, by the way).
            1. Dooplet11
              Dooplet11 12 August 2019 14: 17
              +3
              Can you provide proofs? Do gentlemen believe the word? Where is the guarantee that you understood the article correctly and comprehend the proofs?
              Here, for example:
              http://alternathistory.com/30-mm-otboinyi-molotok-i-soputstvuyushchie-stvoly/
              states the following:

              "on tests, a cannon projectile at a distance of 1000 meters required an excess of the line of sight of 41 meters. But at distances 200-300 meters flew quite heap and straightforward."
              Who to believe? To nobody. Better check.
              Thus, without a table of excess of the trajectory over the aiming line, taking into account the flight altitude and the speed of the carrier, to say something definite is not serious. A table in the studio! Or let your statement be considered (no offense said!) A chatter.
              PS. And about the "sharp maneuver" of bombers in the formation, too, no proofs? And maneuverability? Not rich with your evidence base!
        2. Dooplet11
          Dooplet11 12 August 2019 14: 29
          +2
          and cannons - "cigarette butts" with mortar ballistics (4-meter fall of the trajectory of the projectile at 100 meters of firing distance)

          It says:
          MK108 30mm Ballistics

          Projectil Type - 3 cm Minengeschoss 108 Ausführung A mit Zerleger
          Projectile Weight - 330g + -8
          Projectile Length - 146mm (5.7in)
          Initial Velocity - 500 m \ sec (1640 ft \ sec)
          Barrel Firing Angle - 0 degree
          Length of Barrel - 26 inches
          Length of Riffling in Barrel - 21 inches
          Rate of Right Hand Twist - 1: 16


          Range (M) .. m \ sec ... ToF ..... Drop ...... Disp ...... RH.Spin.Drift
          0..............500........0.. ......0..........0........... 0
          50............486....(.10s)...(2in).....###.......(1.7in)
          100..........472....(.21s)...(8in).....(6.8ft).....(3.7in) <---- 109 yards
          150..........459....(.31s)...(1.5ft)...###.......(5.9in)
          200..........446....(.42s)...(2.7ft)...(14.0ft)....(8.4in) <---- 218 yards
          250..........434....(.54s)...(4.4ft)...###........(11.0in)
          300..........422....(.63s)...(6.5ft)...(21.9ft)....(1.1ft) <----- 328 yards
          350..........411....(.77s)...(9.0ft)...###.......(.1.3ft)
          400..........400....(.90s)...(12.0ft)..(30.2ft)...(1.6ft) <----- 437 yards
          425 .......................... ....................... ...... .. (1.7ft)
          450 .......... 390 .... (1.02s) .. (15.5ft) .. ### ....... ######
          500..........379....(1.15s)..(19.6ft)..(39.2ft)..######
          525 .......................... ....................... ...... .. (2.25ft)
          550..........370....(1.29s)..(24.0ft)..###.......###### (https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php?topic=330586.0)
          - 100m lowering the path of 8 inches , not 4! Who is lying? Operator or bustr? I put on the Operator.
          And I note that this data does not take into account the own speed of the carrier aircraft (700 km / h, this is + 194m / s to the initial velocity of the projectile)
          1. Operator
            Operator 12 August 2019 15: 01
            -3
            At 0,5 km, the trajectory is lowered by 6 meters, and by 1 km - by 41 meters: no, I do not believe - as Ronald Reagan said: "Trust, but verify" (C).

            Actually, the target speed must be subtracted from the carrier’s own speed, but the carrier’s speed has a minimal effect on the ballistics of the gun.
            1. Dooplet11
              Dooplet11 12 August 2019 15: 12
              +3
              At 0,5 km, the trajectory is lowered by 6 meters, and by 1 km - by 41 meters: no, I do not believe - as Ronald Reagan said: "Trust, but verify" (C).
              - Yes, these are the approximate values ​​given by the ballistic calculator. For conditions "height 0, carrier speed 0", but about 100m / 4 m you lied.
              but the speed of the carrier has a minimal effect on the ballistics of the gun.

              Here is the card for Vya Il-Xnumx:
              And she says that even for a larger initial velocity of the projectile and a much lower speed of the aircraft, this parameter is very significant.
              So what are the proofs for agility and sharp maneuvers? Only blah blah blah?
              1. Operator
                Operator 12 August 2019 15: 29
                -4
                You need to be in the subject in order to understand what is written in the proofs from the English-language Pedovikia, which were in the comments, but you did not read them / did not understand:
                - to ensure maneuverability at a speed of more than 800 km / h under the Me-262 thrust-to-weight ratio, the wing sweep angle should be increased by 2,5 times (as was demonstrated by the example of the MiG-15);
                - at the same time, ridges must be mounted on the wings to prevent stalling, and the area of ​​the stabilizer and rudder must be multiplied (again, see MiG-15);
                - the engine must be equipped with an anti-surge air path and a combustion chamber (see copy of the English engine on the MiG-15).

                The designers of the Third Reich did not find these solutions due to the lack of a several-year time reserve (in addition to the four years spent) on research on innovations in aerodynamics and engine building, which appeared at foreign designers after the end of WWII. This is the adventurism of the Germans.
                1. Dooplet11
                  Dooplet11 12 August 2019 15: 34
                  +2
                  You must be in the subject to understand what is written in proofs

                  I agree with that. But you have not provided your proofs, nor have you refuted my figures.
                  to ensure maneuverability at speeds greater than 800 km / h under conditions of Me-262 thrust-weight ratio, the angle of sweep of its wing should be increased by 2,5 times (as was demonstrated by the example of the MiG-15);
                  - at the same time, ridges must be mounted on the wings to prevent stalling, and the area of ​​the stabilizer and rudder must be multiplied (again, see MiG-15);
                  - the engine must be equipped with an anti-surge air path and a combustion chamber (see copy of the English engine on the MiG-15).
                  - Does this science-like nonsense replace the Me-262 controllability graphics? What is the force on the Me-262 handle per one overload unit at the 800 speed of the instrument at an altitude of 6000m? Do not know? Then what are you talking about?
                  1. Operator
                    Operator 12 August 2019 15: 49
                    -2
                    And here the effort on the control handle per unit of overload: I’m talking about something else - the Me-262 itself, when trying to make a maneuver in the horizontal or vertical plane, in response to the rearrangement of the control knob and pedals, began to fall down (and not maneuver) due to flow disruption on the wing, unresponsive to shifting rudders / heights and surging engines.

                    In this case, the load on the control handle could be zero laughing

                    And yet - as Pedovikia slanders, with increasing speed above 870 km / h, the force on the control handle exceeded the capabilities of ordinary pilots and the Me-262 also began to fall down. Therefore, in his LTH the above-mentioned maximum speed also appears, and the actually reached speed limit at 1000 km / h is bashfully hushed up.
                    1. Dooplet11
                      Dooplet11 12 August 2019 16: 05
                      +3
                      And here the effort on the control handle per unit of overload: I’m talking about something else - the Me-262 itself, when trying to make a maneuver in the horizontal or vertical plane, in response to the rearrangement of the control knob and pedals, began to fall down (and not maneuver) due to flow disruption on the wing, unresponsive to shifting rudders / heights and surging engines.
                      - Where are the proofs?
                      And yet - as Pedovikia slanders, with increasing speed above 870 km / h, the force on the control handle exceeded the capabilities of ordinary pilots and the Me-262 also began to fall down. Therefore, in his LTH the above-mentioned maximum speed also appears, and the actually reached speed limit at 1000 km / h is bashfully hushed up.
                      - exceeding the permissible speed is one thing, controllability and maneuverability at the speeds permissible according to the Airplane Flight Manual is another. Again, no proofs. From you only "blah blah blah" and not a single document.
            2. Dooplet11
              Dooplet11 12 August 2019 15: 21
              +2
              Actually, the target speed should be taken away from the carrier’s own speed

              - Actually, the speed of the target is taken into account when aiming by setting out the lead point. Taking into account the ballistics of the projectile. And then ballistics is separate, and target speed is separate. At least that's what the aerial shooting primers say: http://virtpilot.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/book408.pdf
              1. Operator
                Operator 12 August 2019 15: 40
                -1
                When attacking a fighter at a "pistol" firing range (~ 100 meters) when approaching from the side of the rear sphere, in the case of firing from guns with cannon ballistics, the lead to the speed of the air target can be omitted.
                1. Dooplet11
                  Dooplet11 12 August 2019 15: 44
                  +3
                  laughing "Captain obvious."
                  When attacking a fighter at a "pistol" firing range (~ 100 meters) when approaching from the side of the rear sphere, in the case of firing from guns with cannon ballistics, the lead to the speed of the air target can be omitted.
                  -This correct sentence does not negate the need to reinforce those proofs doubtful statementswhich you did above. Waiting for you proofs. But something tells me that they will not be. hi
  44. Nycomed
    Nycomed 10 August 2019 16: 51
    0
    Did not like. Some unconnected set ...
  45. dgonni
    dgonni 10 August 2019 16: 55
    0
    The author is probably offended by critical posts about his first articles!
    P.S. Well, maybe there are people on the forum who are better versed in the subject of the conversation that you started?
  46. svit55
    svit55 10 August 2019 22: 46
    +1
    "Other fighters with nacelles placed under the planes were also born, but not one did not become massive and successful."
    Wrong. Yak-28 with all modifications from a bomber to an interceptor. Let not particularly successful, but massive.
    1. sergevl
      sergevl 11 August 2019 01: 16
      0

      Here is another one with a turbojet engine under the wing
      1. sergevl
        sergevl 11 August 2019 01: 36
        0


        Another plane with a turbojet engine under the direct wing.
  47. SASHA OLD
    SASHA OLD 11 August 2019 00: 31
    0
    the film is beautiful, though it has little in common with real air battles ..
    but still very beautiful
    there at the end is the frontal Mustang (6 * 12.7mm in wings) and Schwalby (4 thirty in the nose) - a movie is such a movie ...
  48. kig
    kig 11 August 2019 11: 10
    +1
    When discussing Me.262, an impenetrable argument pops up: the Germans were the first - is not it so? Yes, there were Meteor and P80, but the German was the first jet aircraft to take an active part in hostilities. The rest looked closely and tried on. Well, the first pancake turned out to be somewhat lumpy, but nonetheless - he is the first.
    1. Grossvater
      Grossvater 11 August 2019 18: 22
      +3
      Moreover, many design decisions of modern jet engines grow precisely from German designs.
      The trouble of the Germans, I write for the umpteenth time, is precisely in the wrong desire for progress.
      Comparing the 262nd and P80 is incorrect. The American was created as a response to the German and the war, despite the genius of Johnson, he was late. The meteor had centrifugal engines. It is precisely the axial compressor, which fully proved itself in the bright future, that caused the failure of German aviation.
      By the way, returning to the swept wing. Such a wing with a sweep of 35 degrees is completely German development. And the USSR and the USA and England very soon broke away from this bitch :)!
      But the title of this article is correct. The advantage that aviation of the USSR and allies had made it possible to simply ignore even the best German aircraft.
      And yet, about the redanna scheme. But nothing that F4, the very one, was built on it ?!
  49. The comment was deleted.
  50. Grossvater
    Grossvater 11 August 2019 18: 13
    +2
    "The advantages of swept wings appear only at high speeds. Much greater than those at which the Me.262 and its opponents, the piston fighters, flew."
    In fact, the swept wing has advantages just when approaching supersonic. Further, a very thin direct profile drives quite well. And then, you reproached the 262nd precisely for the lack of an arrow-shaped wing.