About the displacement of the Me-262 fighter
I will never compare the battleship and the aircraft carrier, for the first one there is Kaptsov, for the second - Andrei from Chelyabinsk. And no one forbids me to do this, you just need to understand your level of competence in these matters.
I do not pretend to be an “expert” in business aviation World War II, although I just love these planes. There was an essence in them. Each country has its own, but these were finished combat vehicles that simply could not help but be loved.
And such a feed "Swallow". In fact, the first combat jet aircraft.
Shame and degradation, you know ...
Question about who the shame.
Then let me not co-author, as some readers suggested, but the lawyer for Lastochka. Well, what do I like, these planes ...
So, from the screw! Italicized quotes Kaptsov.
Oleg, I'm sorry, “Anenerbe” worked badly. And the MiG-29 drawings could not be delivered in the 1941 year. That's why it happened - a thick profile of a piston wing and a small sweep. In fact - a piston aircraft with suspended turbojet engines.
This is called evolution. This is called design search. Especially given the fact that the predecessors of the Me-262 was not. He was the first real combat aircraft.
You can challenge in terms of "Arado-Blitz", but Ar-234 was, firstly, a bomber, and secondly - about a miracle, the truth - with a sweep he had, like the "Swallow". That is, in any way.
In what way ... That is, comrade Yakovlev perediral Martian spaceship? And the Yak-25 and Yak-28 did not meet these requirements? Strange, but more similarities than necessary. And the tricycle chassis with the front desk, and the engines under the wings ...
Yeah, that is, cannon shells, which pounded into the corps of "fortresses" - a lie. And our planes Yakovlev and Ilyushin, painfully reminiscent of the creation of Willy Messerschmitt - also a lie?
And what about 1180 units Yak-28? And what about 635 units Yak-25? Is that a lie too?
All in short, lie. Strange such an alternative world. But - has the right to life. However, we go further in the text.
Further interesting comparisons begin.
So what? Is this a reason to compare them? Weight? Sorry, Oleg, this is the displacement ships can be compared. Airplanes are somewhat different.
The P-47 was a piston aircraft. Me-262 - turbojet. The P-47 was a single-engine, the Me-262 was a twin-engined aircraft. Sorry, but it does not occur to me to compare planes so different. And in our case - yes, easily. The main thing - the weight is the same ...
Requires translation into Russian. But in general, the plane was not capable of measuring the specific load on the wing. This was done by calculations in the experimental design bureau and the pilots were not accounted for. And, believe me, the pilots entered the battle, completely unaware of the load on the wing.
How correctly wrote Pokryshkin in his book "The Sky of War": the motor worked, weapon it was fine - the pilot went into battle no matter what. Both the 16 and the Hurricanes fought Me-109 F and G. And dropped those to the ground.
It was, and it is simply impossible to get out of it.
P-47 "Thunderbolt" was the most massive US fighter in the war. And it was a very successful fighter capable of performing all the tasks assigned to it. Weight? Sorry, I wrote in an article about this aircraft that the hefty weight of the P-47 was more than compensated for by its engine.
But they were completely different planes. And comparing them is just silly.
Well, divine! Post-war fighters of all countries were developed in a calm environment, with a careful study of German trophies, no one bombed OKB, Soviet Tanks did not rumble through the nearby streets and so on.
Here the code word is post-war. Designed after the war. Feel the difference, as they say!
Do not set the characteristics of the Me-262 Luftwaffe in any position. On the contrary. While Me-109 and FW-190 of all modifications were trying to fight the Mustangs and Thunderbolts, Me-262 stood on the wing.
By the way, the statistics are in favor of “Swallows”. 150 downed aircraft versus 100 lost aircraft is not bad. For the new class of aircraft - quite. Moreover, of the hundreds of lost, most are lost on the ground. From the actions of poorly trained technicians, and from the pilots got. Not all were galllands.
Unpatriotic, but what losses did the Soviet BI-1 have to the enemy? British "Gloucester Meteor"? American P-59 "Aircomet"?
None Except for the lives of test pilots - no. In contrast to the useless German Me-262.
And for some reason, no one could catch up with the replica of a piston fighter with turbojet engines. Yes, they caught on take-off and landing, when the weak Junkers turbojet engines at that time could not give the aircraft the necessary speed. But in the usual battle - sorry. 150 km / h is an advantage, whatever one may say.
So the Germans built the fighter of the future, really having neither experience nor technology. They created these technologies and gained the same experience on the basis of their work. Not Martians they planted the drawings. Not with Jupiter engines flew.
On the contrary, the victorious countries with great pleasure and trembling at the knees hunted for secrets of both V-1, and V-2, and Me-163, and Me-262. Copied, improved, repelled in their developments.
Forgot? Or did not know? Excuse me, Mr. Kaptsov, did their Yakovlev training manuals lie on the tables, but they didn’t look at them? Or calculations Mikoyan?
How easy to fence the utter nonsense. Through 80 years. However, it is not surprising.
And what can be reproached to German engineers? Probably an unfinished time machine. Again “Anenerbe” failed. They didn’t penetrate into the future, didn’t get acquainted with how Kaptsov should make planes and battleships, because they lost the fools with Tirpitz and Me-262.
I will tell you. Oleg, a terrible secret. If it were not for the work of the engineers of the Messerschmitt company, it is unlikely that everyone else would have come to supersonic equipment. That's right, the Mustang had a laminar wing for anything, but not for supersonic.
Well, of course! Could they have created a normal weapon in Germany? Of course not! MK-108 - this, according to Kaptsov, is not a weapon, but a misunderstanding.
Well, I will not talk here about the calibers, let's talk (soon) about 30-mm guns in the relevant article. In defense of the MK-108, I can only say that its design is a compromise between weight, cost, and the ability to cause damage.
The gun was lighter than many. Yes, a half-meter trunk is not God knows what, dispersion was fair. Here Oleg coped. But then ... Next - sadness.
Yes, the range of fire at the German gun turned out so-so. As well as the trajectory of the projectile. And here Kaptsov is a little tricky. Yes, at a distance of 1000 meters, the MK-108 projectile went down to the 41 meter. But at a distance in 200-300 meters behaved more than decently, and heap, and quite straightforwardly.
Oh, what a bad MK-108 was and how good ShVAK and Hispano-Suiza were!
Isn't it Oleg?
And anything, that from the same ShVAK nobody beat a kilometer? Approached the same 200-300 meters and beat? Laziness Pokryshkina look through?
And further, what is this frankly strange approach? Ours, according to the most numerous recollections, shot from 100-300 meters, and why should the Germans be from a kilometer away? Who will explain?
How then is this: first, 108-gram high-explosive tracer shells, equipped with 440 grams of pentrite mixed with TNT, were used in the XK MUM 28 gun. And in 1944, the main ammunition was the grenades "Minengeschoss" weighing 330 grams, equipped in different versions of the projectile from 72 to 85 with grams of hexogen in combination with aluminum powder and plasticizer (in the ratio 75 / 20 / 5%).
And, as practice has shown, 4-5 hits - and any "flying fortress" turned into a pile of metal. 4 hits from 4-x guns - what is it like? It is quite possible. Given the quite good (as usual) rate of fire in 650 rds / min for the Rheinmetall product.
Any fighter of those times was enough for ONE such projectile.
And what about ShVAK, who had such beautiful ballistics?
The charge of high-explosive fragmentation projectile contained 3,7 grams of tetryl or a mixture of "GTT" - hexogen, trotyl and tetryl. Incendiary fragmentation contained 0,85 gram of "GTT" and 3,9 gram of incendiary composition. Armor-piercing incendiary explosives did not contain, the mass of incendiary composition was 2,8 grams.
Yes, during the war the charges were strengthened and even new ones were invented, more powerful. For example, an incendiary fragmentation projectile, which was filled with 5,6 grams of A-IX-2 blasting explosives, which consisted of hexogen (76%), aluminum powder (20%) and wax (4%), as well as fragmentation and tracer shells, equipped 4,2 grams of A-IX-2 explosives.
Is there a difference between 20 mm 93-96 grams projectile and 4,2-5,6 charged grams of explosives and 300 grams projectile with 85 grams of explosives?
How many such shells should have been planted in the same B-17 to make him ill? That's it. But praise in the direction of ShVAK does not look very. The gun is a completely different class.
Engines. Here Kaptsov is fine too.
Of course, the Germans were just disgusting, because they lost the war. However, we recall that they reached Moscow in six months, but back three were back.
You know, Oleg, I will disappoint you a little. Your "luxurious and spewing" flame VK-1 (RD-45) - just an illegal copy of the British engine. It was the British who sold us the 40 copies of their Rolls-Royce Nene engine, and ours just banged. Without permission, without a license, as the Chinese are doing now.
This is nothing, since another family of "Soviet" engines RD-10 and RD-20 is Junkers Jumo 004 and BMW 003, respectively. And our planes (MiG-9 and IL-28, for example) flew on the replicated engines of allies and opponents.
German engines were worse, but the courts, as from Rolls-Royce, were not threatened.
And you, Oleg, are absolutely right! We were never able to build either rocket or turbojet engines in 1944. And in 1947, when British and German fell into the hands, yes, easily.
Honestly, this homey "hurray-patriotism" is not very appropriate today. Especially sewn with white thread. Without studying and comparing the most elementary sources, which, I want to say, today are a wave.
And so, in fact, turned out a very vigorous article about the displacement "Me-262". Approximately with the same success it is possible to write about the flight characteristics of the American and Japanese battleships. But not worth it.
In my reviews on German aviation, I was really quite critical of certain aspects of the same Me-109. But in no case does this detract from the merits of the designers of the Messerschmitt company and even of Willy Messerschmitt, since they created a very good fighting machine.
And we have been catching up for a very long time, and in some places we could not catch up with the Messerschmitts and the Focke-Wulfs.
The Germans were able to build airplanes. The Germans were able to build engines. The Germans were able to create excellent models of weapons. These were very strong and worthy opponents.
And waving the “Soviet class engine” copied from the German engine, humiliating the defeated enemy, is, sorry, unworthy of the winners. Approximately how to say that the MK-108 was perfect about anything in comparison with ShVAK, without going into details and starting from a single parameter. Even if it is very important.
We won, despite and despite. This is worth remembering. And we should consider what our opponents fought with, precisely this way: with respect and due attention.
Leaving populism and urness aside. You have to be a little more serious, even in pursuit of popularity.
I do not pretend to be an “expert” in business aviation World War II, although I just love these planes. There was an essence in them. Each country has its own, but these were finished combat vehicles that simply could not help but be loved.
And such a feed "Swallow". In fact, the first combat jet aircraft.
Shame and degradation, you know ...
Question about who the shame.
Then let me not co-author, as some readers suggested, but the lawyer for Lastochka. Well, what do I like, these planes ...
So, from the screw! Italicized quotes Kaptsov.
"Me. 262" Schwalbe "was created under the influence of predecessors and combined the signs of piston-era aircraft, unacceptable for jet aircraft. First of all, it is noticeable in its wing with a thick profile and a small sweep. ”
Oleg, I'm sorry, “Anenerbe” worked badly. And the MiG-29 drawings could not be delivered in the 1941 year. That's why it happened - a thick profile of a piston wing and a small sweep. In fact - a piston aircraft with suspended turbojet engines.
This is called evolution. This is called design search. Especially given the fact that the predecessors of the Me-262 was not. He was the first real combat aircraft.
You can challenge in terms of "Arado-Blitz", but Ar-234 was, firstly, a bomber, and secondly - about a miracle, the truth - with a sweep he had, like the "Swallow". That is, in any way.
“After the war, no one used the technical solutions incorporated in the Me.262 design. None of the post-war fighters had wings with such a profile or nacelles placed under the planes (outside the main landing gear). "
In what way ... That is, comrade Yakovlev perediral Martian spaceship? And the Yak-25 and Yak-28 did not meet these requirements? Strange, but more similarities than necessary. And the tricycle chassis with the front desk, and the engines under the wings ...
Oh, and what is it here with us? Another dead end? Stupid Soviet leaders crammed from 1949 to 1955 for a year over 6 of thousands of these dead-end IL-28.
And about 2 thousands of these Harbin H-5, which the Chinese just copied from the IL-28 and use even today.
Solid deadlocks with engine nacelles under the wings ...
“With the jet age, Schwalbe was related only to the principle of operation of a turbojet engine. Everything else was a lie. ”
Yeah, that is, cannon shells, which pounded into the corps of "fortresses" - a lie. And our planes Yakovlev and Ilyushin, painfully reminiscent of the creation of Willy Messerschmitt - also a lie?
And what about 1180 units Yak-28? And what about 635 units Yak-25? Is that a lie too?
All in short, lie. Strange such an alternative world. But - has the right to life. However, we go further in the text.
Further interesting comparisons begin.
“Reactive Me.262 and piston Thunderbolt P-47D had a normal take-off weight of about 6,5 tons.”
So what? Is this a reason to compare them? Weight? Sorry, Oleg, this is the displacement ships can be compared. Airplanes are somewhat different.
The P-47 was a piston aircraft. Me-262 - turbojet. The P-47 was a single-engine, the Me-262 was a twin-engined aircraft. Sorry, but it does not occur to me to compare planes so different. And in our case - yes, easily. The main thing - the weight is the same ...
“With the advent of other fighters equipped with high-altitude turbocharged engines, the Thunders quickly launched the initiative to the more balanced Mustangs.” Along with Lavochkins, Messerschmitts and Spitfires, they preferred to enter into battle with values of the specific load of 200 and less than kg per square meter. meter wing.
Requires translation into Russian. But in general, the plane was not capable of measuring the specific load on the wing. This was done by calculations in the experimental design bureau and the pilots were not accounted for. And, believe me, the pilots entered the battle, completely unaware of the load on the wing.
How correctly wrote Pokryshkin in his book "The Sky of War": the motor worked, weapon it was fine - the pilot went into battle no matter what. Both the 16 and the Hurricanes fought Me-109 F and G. And dropped those to the ground.
It was, and it is simply impossible to get out of it.
P-47 "Thunderbolt" was the most massive US fighter in the war. And it was a very successful fighter capable of performing all the tasks assigned to it. Weight? Sorry, I wrote in an article about this aircraft that the hefty weight of the P-47 was more than compensated for by its engine.
But they were completely different planes. And comparing them is just silly.
“Two“ whistles ”under the wing provided Schwalbe with a total of less than 1,8 tons of thrust. This is very bad. There can be no comparison with the fighters of the post-war period. "Schwalbe" was inferior in thrust to the piston peers! "
Well, divine! Post-war fighters of all countries were developed in a calm environment, with a careful study of German trophies, no one bombed OKB, Soviet Tanks did not rumble through the nearby streets and so on.
Here the code word is post-war. Designed after the war. Feel the difference, as they say!
“Because of the insufficient engine thrust, Schwalbe required runways with a length of at least 1500 meters. From the idea of powder accelerators quickly abandoned - such jokes all got the order. The impossibility of basing Mee.262 on ordinary field airfields put the Reich's air force, which was already breathing its last, in an absolutely desperate position.
Ubermenshi built the "fighter of the future", not having the necessary experience and technology. It was a replica of a heavy piston fighter with wings cut off and an exceptionally frail motor. ”
Ubermenshi built the "fighter of the future", not having the necessary experience and technology. It was a replica of a heavy piston fighter with wings cut off and an exceptionally frail motor. ”
Do not set the characteristics of the Me-262 Luftwaffe in any position. On the contrary. While Me-109 and FW-190 of all modifications were trying to fight the Mustangs and Thunderbolts, Me-262 stood on the wing.
By the way, the statistics are in favor of “Swallows”. 150 downed aircraft versus 100 lost aircraft is not bad. For the new class of aircraft - quite. Moreover, of the hundreds of lost, most are lost on the ground. From the actions of poorly trained technicians, and from the pilots got. Not all were galllands.
Unpatriotic, but what losses did the Soviet BI-1 have to the enemy? British "Gloucester Meteor"? American P-59 "Aircomet"?
None Except for the lives of test pilots - no. In contrast to the useless German Me-262.
And for some reason, no one could catch up with the replica of a piston fighter with turbojet engines. Yes, they caught on take-off and landing, when the weak Junkers turbojet engines at that time could not give the aircraft the necessary speed. But in the usual battle - sorry. 150 km / h is an advantage, whatever one may say.
So the Germans built the fighter of the future, really having neither experience nor technology. They created these technologies and gained the same experience on the basis of their work. Not Martians they planted the drawings. Not with Jupiter engines flew.
On the contrary, the victorious countries with great pleasure and trembling at the knees hunted for secrets of both V-1, and V-2, and Me-163, and Me-262. Copied, improved, repelled in their developments.
"German ubeninenergy cut the wings, forgetting to change their profile."
Forgot? Or did not know? Excuse me, Mr. Kaptsov, did their Yakovlev training manuals lie on the tables, but they didn’t look at them? Or calculations Mikoyan?
How easy to fence the utter nonsense. Through 80 years. However, it is not surprising.
“In the era of jet aviation, much sharper profiles and wings are used that use laminar flow. To improve the road stability and prevent the spread of air flow disturbances over the wing, various tricks are used in the form of forkyles and aerodynamic crests. ”
And what can be reproached to German engineers? Probably an unfinished time machine. Again “Anenerbe” failed. They didn’t penetrate into the future, didn’t get acquainted with how Kaptsov should make planes and battleships, because they lost the fools with Tirpitz and Me-262.
I will tell you. Oleg, a terrible secret. If it were not for the work of the engineers of the Messerschmitt company, it is unlikely that everyone else would have come to supersonic equipment. That's right, the Mustang had a laminar wing for anything, but not for supersonic.
"Creating the" Luftwaflu ", the Germans made a mistake in everything, even in the choice of weapons."
Well, of course! Could they have created a normal weapon in Germany? Of course not! MK-108 - this, according to Kaptsov, is not a weapon, but a misunderstanding.
Well, I will not talk here about the calibers, let's talk (soon) about 30-mm guns in the relevant article. In defense of the MK-108, I can only say that its design is a compromise between weight, cost, and the ability to cause damage.
The gun was lighter than many. Yes, a half-meter trunk is not God knows what, dispersion was fair. Here Oleg coped. But then ... Next - sadness.
Yes, the range of fire at the German gun turned out so-so. As well as the trajectory of the projectile. And here Kaptsov is a little tricky. Yes, at a distance of 1000 meters, the MK-108 projectile went down to the 41 meter. But at a distance in 200-300 meters behaved more than decently, and heap, and quite straightforwardly.
Oh, what a bad MK-108 was and how good ShVAK and Hispano-Suiza were!
Isn't it Oleg?
And anything, that from the same ShVAK nobody beat a kilometer? Approached the same 200-300 meters and beat? Laziness Pokryshkina look through?
And further, what is this frankly strange approach? Ours, according to the most numerous recollections, shot from 100-300 meters, and why should the Germans be from a kilometer away? Who will explain?
How then is this: first, 108-gram high-explosive tracer shells, equipped with 440 grams of pentrite mixed with TNT, were used in the XK MUM 28 gun. And in 1944, the main ammunition was the grenades "Minengeschoss" weighing 330 grams, equipped in different versions of the projectile from 72 to 85 with grams of hexogen in combination with aluminum powder and plasticizer (in the ratio 75 / 20 / 5%).
And, as practice has shown, 4-5 hits - and any "flying fortress" turned into a pile of metal. 4 hits from 4-x guns - what is it like? It is quite possible. Given the quite good (as usual) rate of fire in 650 rds / min for the Rheinmetall product.
Any fighter of those times was enough for ONE such projectile.
And what about ShVAK, who had such beautiful ballistics?
The charge of high-explosive fragmentation projectile contained 3,7 grams of tetryl or a mixture of "GTT" - hexogen, trotyl and tetryl. Incendiary fragmentation contained 0,85 gram of "GTT" and 3,9 gram of incendiary composition. Armor-piercing incendiary explosives did not contain, the mass of incendiary composition was 2,8 grams.
Yes, during the war the charges were strengthened and even new ones were invented, more powerful. For example, an incendiary fragmentation projectile, which was filled with 5,6 grams of A-IX-2 blasting explosives, which consisted of hexogen (76%), aluminum powder (20%) and wax (4%), as well as fragmentation and tracer shells, equipped 4,2 grams of A-IX-2 explosives.
Is there a difference between 20 mm 93-96 grams projectile and 4,2-5,6 charged grams of explosives and 300 grams projectile with 85 grams of explosives?
How many such shells should have been planted in the same B-17 to make him ill? That's it. But praise in the direction of ShVAK does not look very. The gun is a completely different class.
Engines. Here Kaptsov is fine too.
“It was impossible to build a full-fledged fighter jet in the 1944 year. But it became possible in 1947.
The first domestic turbojet serial engine VK-1 (РД-45) exhaled 2,6 tons of flames and fire with a dry weight of 872 kg. It differed from German handicrafts four times as long as it did not require complicated tricks using two types of fuel (take-off on gasoline, the main flight was on kerosene / diesel fuel from Jumo-004). ”
The first domestic turbojet serial engine VK-1 (РД-45) exhaled 2,6 tons of flames and fire with a dry weight of 872 kg. It differed from German handicrafts four times as long as it did not require complicated tricks using two types of fuel (take-off on gasoline, the main flight was on kerosene / diesel fuel from Jumo-004). ”
Of course, the Germans were just disgusting, because they lost the war. However, we recall that they reached Moscow in six months, but back three were back.
You know, Oleg, I will disappoint you a little. Your "luxurious and spewing" flame VK-1 (RD-45) - just an illegal copy of the British engine. It was the British who sold us the 40 copies of their Rolls-Royce Nene engine, and ours just banged. Without permission, without a license, as the Chinese are doing now.
This is nothing, since another family of "Soviet" engines RD-10 and RD-20 is Junkers Jumo 004 and BMW 003, respectively. And our planes (MiG-9 and IL-28, for example) flew on the replicated engines of allies and opponents.
German engines were worse, but the courts, as from Rolls-Royce, were not threatened.
And you, Oleg, are absolutely right! We were never able to build either rocket or turbojet engines in 1944. And in 1947, when British and German fell into the hands, yes, easily.
Honestly, this homey "hurray-patriotism" is not very appropriate today. Especially sewn with white thread. Without studying and comparing the most elementary sources, which, I want to say, today are a wave.
And so, in fact, turned out a very vigorous article about the displacement "Me-262". Approximately with the same success it is possible to write about the flight characteristics of the American and Japanese battleships. But not worth it.
In my reviews on German aviation, I was really quite critical of certain aspects of the same Me-109. But in no case does this detract from the merits of the designers of the Messerschmitt company and even of Willy Messerschmitt, since they created a very good fighting machine.
And we have been catching up for a very long time, and in some places we could not catch up with the Messerschmitts and the Focke-Wulfs.
The Germans were able to build airplanes. The Germans were able to build engines. The Germans were able to create excellent models of weapons. These were very strong and worthy opponents.
And waving the “Soviet class engine” copied from the German engine, humiliating the defeated enemy, is, sorry, unworthy of the winners. Approximately how to say that the MK-108 was perfect about anything in comparison with ShVAK, without going into details and starting from a single parameter. Even if it is very important.
We won, despite and despite. This is worth remembering. And we should consider what our opponents fought with, precisely this way: with respect and due attention.
Leaving populism and urness aside. You have to be a little more serious, even in pursuit of popularity.
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