About the displacement of the Me-262 fighter

I will never compare the battleship and the aircraft carrier, for the first one there is Kaptsov, for the second - Andrei from Chelyabinsk. And no one forbids me to do this, you just need to understand your level of competence in these matters.


I do not pretend to be an “expert” in business aviation World War II, although I just love these planes. There was an essence in them. Each country has its own, but these were finished combat vehicles that simply could not help but be loved.

And such a feed "Swallow". In fact, the first combat jet aircraft.



Shame and degradation, you know ...

Question about who the shame.

Then let me not co-author, as some readers suggested, but the lawyer for Lastochka. Well, what do I like, these planes ...

So, from the screw! Italicized quotes Kaptsov.

"Me. 262" Schwalbe "was created under the influence of predecessors and combined the signs of piston-era aircraft, unacceptable for jet aircraft. First of all, it is noticeable in its wing with a thick profile and a small sweep. ”




Oleg, I'm sorry, “Anenerbe” worked badly. And the MiG-29 drawings could not be delivered in the 1941 year. That's why it happened - a thick profile of a piston wing and a small sweep. In fact - a piston aircraft with suspended turbojet engines.

This is called evolution. This is called design search. Especially given the fact that the predecessors of the Me-262 was not. He was the first real combat aircraft.

You can challenge in terms of "Arado-Blitz", but Ar-234 was, firstly, a bomber, and secondly - about a miracle, the truth - with a sweep he had, like the "Swallow". That is, in any way.





“After the war, no one used the technical solutions incorporated in the Me.262 design. None of the post-war fighters had wings with such a profile or nacelles placed under the planes (outside the main landing gear). "


In what way ... That is, comrade Yakovlev perediral Martian spaceship? And the Yak-25 and Yak-28 did not meet these requirements? Strange, but more similarities than necessary. And the tricycle chassis with the front desk, and the engines under the wings ...






Oh, and what is it here with us? Another dead end? Stupid Soviet leaders crammed from 1949 to 1955 for a year over 6 of thousands of these dead-end IL-28.


About the displacement of the Me-262 fighter


And about 2 thousands of these Harbin H-5, which the Chinese just copied from the IL-28 and use even today.



Solid deadlocks with engine nacelles under the wings ...


“With the jet age, Schwalbe was related only to the principle of operation of a turbojet engine. Everything else was a lie. ”


Yeah, that is, cannon shells, which pounded into the corps of "fortresses" - a lie. And our planes Yakovlev and Ilyushin, painfully reminiscent of the creation of Willy Messerschmitt - also a lie?

And what about 1180 units Yak-28? And what about 635 units Yak-25? Is that a lie too?

All in short, lie. Strange such an alternative world. But - has the right to life. However, we go further in the text.

Further interesting comparisons begin.

“Reactive Me.262 and piston Thunderbolt P-47D had a normal take-off weight of about 6,5 tons.”


So what? Is this a reason to compare them? Weight? Sorry, Oleg, this is the displacement ships can be compared. Airplanes are somewhat different.

The P-47 was a piston aircraft. Me-262 - turbojet. The P-47 was a single-engine, the Me-262 was a twin-engined aircraft. Sorry, but it does not occur to me to compare planes so different. And in our case - yes, easily. The main thing - the weight is the same ...

“With the advent of other fighters equipped with high-altitude turbocharged engines, the Thunders quickly launched the initiative to the more balanced Mustangs.” Along with Lavochkins, Messerschmitts and Spitfires, they preferred to enter into battle with values ​​of the specific load of 200 and less than kg per square meter. meter wing.


Requires translation into Russian. But in general, the plane was not capable of measuring the specific load on the wing. This was done by calculations in the experimental design bureau and the pilots were not accounted for. And, believe me, the pilots entered the battle, completely unaware of the load on the wing.

How correctly wrote Pokryshkin in his book "The Sky of War": the motor worked, weapon it was fine - the pilot went into battle no matter what. Both the 16 and the Hurricanes fought Me-109 F and G. And dropped those to the ground.

It was, and it is simply impossible to get out of it.

P-47 "Thunderbolt" was the most massive US fighter in the war. And it was a very successful fighter capable of performing all the tasks assigned to it. Weight? Sorry, I wrote in an article about this aircraft that the hefty weight of the P-47 was more than compensated for by its engine.

But they were completely different planes. And comparing them is just silly.

“Two“ whistles ”under the wing provided Schwalbe with a total of less than 1,8 tons of thrust. This is very bad. There can be no comparison with the fighters of the post-war period. "Schwalbe" was inferior in thrust to the piston peers! "


Well, divine! Post-war fighters of all countries were developed in a calm environment, with a careful study of German trophies, no one bombed OKB, Soviet Tanks did not rumble through the nearby streets and so on.

Here the code word is post-war. Designed after the war. Feel the difference, as they say!

“Because of the insufficient engine thrust, Schwalbe required runways with a length of at least 1500 meters. From the idea of ​​powder accelerators quickly abandoned - such jokes all got the order. The impossibility of basing Mee.262 on ordinary field airfields put the Reich's air force, which was already breathing its last, in an absolutely desperate position.
Ubermenshi built the "fighter of the future", not having the necessary experience and technology. It was a replica of a heavy piston fighter with wings cut off and an exceptionally frail motor. ”


Do not set the characteristics of the Me-262 Luftwaffe in any position. On the contrary. While Me-109 and FW-190 of all modifications were trying to fight the Mustangs and Thunderbolts, Me-262 stood on the wing.

By the way, the statistics are in favor of “Swallows”. 150 downed aircraft versus 100 lost aircraft is not bad. For the new class of aircraft - quite. Moreover, of the hundreds of lost, most are lost on the ground. From the actions of poorly trained technicians, and from the pilots got. Not all were galllands.

Unpatriotic, but what losses did the Soviet BI-1 have to the enemy? British "Gloucester Meteor"? American P-59 "Aircomet"?

None Except for the lives of test pilots - no. In contrast to the useless German Me-262.

And for some reason, no one could catch up with the replica of a piston fighter with turbojet engines. Yes, they caught on take-off and landing, when the weak Junkers turbojet engines at that time could not give the aircraft the necessary speed. But in the usual battle - sorry. 150 km / h is an advantage, whatever one may say.

So the Germans built the fighter of the future, really having neither experience nor technology. They created these technologies and gained the same experience on the basis of their work. Not Martians they planted the drawings. Not with Jupiter engines flew.

On the contrary, the victorious countries with great pleasure and trembling at the knees hunted for secrets of both V-1, and V-2, and Me-163, and Me-262. Copied, improved, repelled in their developments.

"German ubeninenergy cut the wings, forgetting to change their profile."


Forgot? Or did not know? Excuse me, Mr. Kaptsov, did their Yakovlev training manuals lie on the tables, but they didn’t look at them? Or calculations Mikoyan?

How easy to fence the utter nonsense. Through 80 years. However, it is not surprising.

“In the era of jet aviation, much sharper profiles and wings are used that use laminar flow. To improve the road stability and prevent the spread of air flow disturbances over the wing, various tricks are used in the form of forkyles and aerodynamic crests. ”


And what can be reproached to German engineers? Probably an unfinished time machine. Again “Anenerbe” failed. They didn’t penetrate into the future, didn’t get acquainted with how Kaptsov should make planes and battleships, because they lost the fools with Tirpitz and Me-262.

I will tell you. Oleg, a terrible secret. If it were not for the work of the engineers of the Messerschmitt company, it is unlikely that everyone else would have come to supersonic equipment. That's right, the Mustang had a laminar wing for anything, but not for supersonic.

"Creating the" Luftwaflu ", the Germans made a mistake in everything, even in the choice of weapons."


Well, of course! Could they have created a normal weapon in Germany? Of course not! MK-108 - this, according to Kaptsov, is not a weapon, but a misunderstanding.



Well, I will not talk here about the calibers, let's talk (soon) about 30-mm guns in the relevant article. In defense of the MK-108, I can only say that its design is a compromise between weight, cost, and the ability to cause damage.

The gun was lighter than many. Yes, a half-meter trunk is not God knows what, dispersion was fair. Here Oleg coped. But then ... Next - sadness.

Yes, the range of fire at the German gun turned out so-so. As well as the trajectory of the projectile. And here Kaptsov is a little tricky. Yes, at a distance of 1000 meters, the MK-108 projectile went down to the 41 meter. But at a distance in 200-300 meters behaved more than decently, and heap, and quite straightforwardly.

Oh, what a bad MK-108 was and how good ShVAK and Hispano-Suiza were!

Isn't it Oleg?

And anything, that from the same ShVAK nobody beat a kilometer? Approached the same 200-300 meters and beat? Laziness Pokryshkina look through?

And further, what is this frankly strange approach? Ours, according to the most numerous recollections, shot from 100-300 meters, and why should the Germans be from a kilometer away? Who will explain?

How then is this: first, 108-gram high-explosive tracer shells, equipped with 440 grams of pentrite mixed with TNT, were used in the XK MUM 28 gun. And in 1944, the main ammunition was the grenades "Minengeschoss" weighing 330 grams, equipped in different versions of the projectile from 72 to 85 with grams of hexogen in combination with aluminum powder and plasticizer (in the ratio 75 / 20 / 5%).

And, as practice has shown, 4-5 hits - and any "flying fortress" turned into a pile of metal. 4 hits from 4-x guns - what is it like? It is quite possible. Given the quite good (as usual) rate of fire in 650 rds / min for the Rheinmetall product.

Any fighter of those times was enough for ONE such projectile.

And what about ShVAK, who had such beautiful ballistics?

The charge of high-explosive fragmentation projectile contained 3,7 grams of tetryl or a mixture of "GTT" - hexogen, trotyl and tetryl. Incendiary fragmentation contained 0,85 gram of "GTT" and 3,9 gram of incendiary composition. Armor-piercing incendiary explosives did not contain, the mass of incendiary composition was 2,8 grams.

Yes, during the war the charges were strengthened and even new ones were invented, more powerful. For example, an incendiary fragmentation projectile, which was filled with 5,6 grams of A-IX-2 blasting explosives, which consisted of hexogen (76%), aluminum powder (20%) and wax (4%), as well as fragmentation and tracer shells, equipped 4,2 grams of A-IX-2 explosives.

Is there a difference between 20 mm 93-96 grams projectile and 4,2-5,6 charged grams of explosives and 300 grams projectile with 85 grams of explosives?

How many such shells should have been planted in the same B-17 to make him ill? That's it. But praise in the direction of ShVAK does not look very. The gun is a completely different class.

Engines. Here Kaptsov is fine too.

“It was impossible to build a full-fledged fighter jet in the 1944 year. But it became possible in 1947.
The first domestic turbojet serial engine VK-1 (РД-45) exhaled 2,6 tons of flames and fire with a dry weight of 872 kg. It differed from German handicrafts four times as long as it did not require complicated tricks using two types of fuel (take-off on gasoline, the main flight was on kerosene / diesel fuel from Jumo-004). ”


Of course, the Germans were just disgusting, because they lost the war. However, we recall that they reached Moscow in six months, but back three were back.

You know, Oleg, I will disappoint you a little. Your "luxurious and spewing" flame VK-1 (RD-45) - just an illegal copy of the British engine. It was the British who sold us the 40 copies of their Rolls-Royce Nene engine, and ours just banged. Without permission, without a license, as the Chinese are doing now.

This is nothing, since another family of "Soviet" engines RD-10 and RD-20 is Junkers Jumo 004 and BMW 003, respectively. And our planes (MiG-9 and IL-28, for example) flew on the replicated engines of allies and opponents.

German engines were worse, but the courts, as from Rolls-Royce, were not threatened.

And you, Oleg, are absolutely right! We were never able to build either rocket or turbojet engines in 1944. And in 1947, when British and German fell into the hands, yes, easily.

Honestly, this homey "hurray-patriotism" is not very appropriate today. Especially sewn with white thread. Without studying and comparing the most elementary sources, which, I want to say, today are a wave.

And so, in fact, turned out a very vigorous article about the displacement "Me-262". Approximately with the same success it is possible to write about the flight characteristics of the American and Japanese battleships. But not worth it.

In my reviews on German aviation, I was really quite critical of certain aspects of the same Me-109. But in no case does this detract from the merits of the designers of the Messerschmitt company and even of Willy Messerschmitt, since they created a very good fighting machine.

And we have been catching up for a very long time, and in some places we could not catch up with the Messerschmitts and the Focke-Wulfs.

The Germans were able to build airplanes. The Germans were able to build engines. The Germans were able to create excellent models of weapons. These were very strong and worthy opponents.

And waving the “Soviet class engine” copied from the German engine, humiliating the defeated enemy, is, sorry, unworthy of the winners. Approximately how to say that the MK-108 was perfect about anything in comparison with ShVAK, without going into details and starting from a single parameter. Even if it is very important.

We won, despite and despite. This is worth remembering. And we should consider what our opponents fought with, precisely this way: with respect and due attention.

Leaving populism and urness aside. You have to be a little more serious, even in pursuit of popularity.
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  1. Theodore 5 August 2019 18: 09 New
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    1-0 in favor of Skomorokhov!
    1. Vol4ara 5 August 2019 19: 26 New
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      Quote: Theodore
      1-0 in favor of Skomorokhov!

      When I read the article on the degradation of the Luftwaffe, I wanted to write almost everything that Skomorokhov wrote in his article, but using a smartphone is still a pleasure.
      I join 1: 0 in favor of Skomorokhov
      1. A1845 6 August 2019 14: 03 New
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        the "luxurious and erupting" flame of VK-1 (RD-45) is just an illegal copy of the British engine. It was the British who sold us 40 copies of their Rolls-Royce Nene engine, and ours simply fought.
        surprised that Kaptsov does not know such things, to see - not his area ..
    2. Aleksandre 5 August 2019 20: 08 New
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      Well, spanked like a kitten.

      PS Comrade Skomorokhov, confess as in spirit, when do you manage to scribble all this fascinating? hi
      1. Proxima 6 August 2019 13: 35 New
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        Mr. Kaptsov needs to ponder one question: why in the Soviet agitation films were the Germans exposed as cowardly fools? Yes, so that the Red Army soldier understands that you can successfully fight such an enemy! It’s kind of uncomfortable to be afraid of him, but it’s a shame to drape all the way to Stalingrad! Now, another question: for what are Oleg's articles campaigning for a technical format? What were we stupid when, at times, even unsuccessfully, we fought with such clown technique Veriakht?
        1. maxcor1974 15 August 2019 22: 51 New
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          I completely agree. My grandfather did not like to talk about war. On 9 of May, after more than one pile, one could hear from him laconic: "The German was a serious enemy." And that’s it. (Kobets Aksenty Karpovich, at the front from 1942 to 1945, 33 guards division of the 2 army. Medal of courage, orders: Glory of the 3 Art., Red Star and World War II (fighting in 1943 and 1945, respectively, and not post-war hanging).
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        1. Theodore 6 August 2019 04: 39 New
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          Well, the duremators here are diyiki! And completely without humor ....
          1. tomket 6 August 2019 11: 52 New
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            Quote: Theodore
            Well, the duremators here are diyiki! And completely without humor ....

            Well yes. Messages began to rub. I do not like fair criticism. Apparently they feel a sin.
    4. Observer2014 5 August 2019 21: 32 New
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      Why is 1-0 !? I’ll add my modest opinion. "Me.262" Schwalbe "Yes, it's like a man who knows how to draw better military equipment on this planet than 99,99%. Trust me .. It was a masterpiece. For its time. You just look at it side! They are a prototype of the design of modern airplanes. Bevels and samples of the transition of the fuselage to the wing. And it was in a warring country! And when there was no place to sketch, they came up with! Angry dogs. But geniuses.
    5. tracer 6 August 2019 03: 41 New
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      Beautifully finished. Facts. He did such a review of the land of the lizovsey technology. It would be nice to repeat.
    6. Serg4545 6 August 2019 10: 36 New
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      And here and there!
      // After the war, no one used the technical solutions inherent in the construction of Me.262. None of the post-war fighters had wings with such a profile or located under the planes of the nacelles (outside the main landing gear). ”//
      Clearly written-KILLERS !!
      And the author gives examples of aircraft that are not fighters. Of these, only the Yak-25 is an interceptor. But the interceptor is not a full fighter.
      All other bombers.
      1. Serg koma 6 August 2019 11: 44 New
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        Quote: Serg4545
        And the author gives examples of aircraft that are not fighters
        A little bit in defense of the author (additions about the fighter)
        About wing profile, sweep and the rest (except for motogandol wassat ) -
        Yak-15 - the first fighter jet, adopted for service in the Soviet Union.
        From the memoirs of Adler Evgeny Georgievich
        A strange engine was soon started. When the noise ceased, A. A. Lakshtovsky intelligently explained its structure, outlining the characteristics. I was shocked. With a weight of 800 kg, the Jumo-004 developed a traction of 900 kgf, which corresponded to approximately 2500 hp.
        For a whole week I tried to mentally attach this turbojet engine to the Yak-3. Finding myself at the airport on the occasion of the preservation of the Yak-3, I again and again sort out possible places where this intractable turbojet engine would stick, when suddenly, like lightning, a thought flickered: ahead with a slope!
        Well, of course, how did I not guess at once? It’s so simple: we remove the piston engine together with the propeller; Jumo takes its place with such an inclination so that the jet stream goes back under the fuselage and wing. Then the alignment of the aircraft will not be violated, and the air pressure in the turbojet engine will be provided. The visibility from the cockpit will even improve, and the emergency escape from the car will remain exactly the same as now.
        Three days later, Yakovlev was presented with a general view of the aircraft. It was a radical modification of the serial Yak-3
      2. tomket 7 August 2019 00: 43 New
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        Well, how would Yakovlev’s project on the topic of PFI - Yak-45
        (MiG-29 and Su-27 in the end), the same was the same Me-262 scheme at maximum speed. And this is the fourth generation.
      3. Crimean partisan 1974 7 August 2019 07: 34 New
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        only the Yak-25 is an interceptor .... here you are not quite right, after the war, three design bombs, Yak, MiG and Su, joined the jet fighter race, and here such a chip, Yak and his Yak-15 were the first to cross the finish line, MiG with its MiG-9, of course, a party affair, Su and his Su-9 of 1946 came to the finish line very late when they had already split the pie, nevertheless, the Su-9 46 was a unique machine, with opponents with a pressurized cabin and thorium radar with a practical ceiling of 13 km, then in the conditions of the outbreak of the Cold War the USSR could already have all-weather and all-day destroy Spruce able to nullify all former allies of plans for nuclear attack on the USSR,
    7. Proxima 6 August 2019 12: 01 New
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      Quote: Theodore
      1-0 in favor of Skomorokhov!
      Just 1 - Oh !? belay Battle Skomorokhov - Kaptsov comparable to the match of the USSR-Brazil, but only (unfortunately for Oleg) in hockey! lol
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    9. Constructor68 7 August 2019 01: 36 New
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      The first 2/3 are only informative and interesting. The last third - what a foolish burning with laudatory odes
      1. Sentinel-vs 7 August 2019 06: 59 New
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        Jarred too. I agree with Skomorokhov that you should not belittle the dignity of the enemy’s weapons, but you shouldn’t bow to him all the more !!! And Skororokhov in 90% of his articles admires everything foreign, simultaneously mocking everything Soviet / Russian.
        1. your1970 8 August 2019 16: 50 New
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          Quote: Sentinel-vs
          Jarred too. I agree with Skomorokhov that you should not belittle the dignity of the enemy’s weapons, but you shouldn’t bow to him all the more !!! And Skororokhov in 90% of his articles admires everything foreign, simultaneously mocking everything Soviet / Russian.
          -that is, the effect of the ShVAKA bullet and the grenade from the German gun is comparable in your opinion ??? Explode the F-1 inside any aircraft of that time in the air - what will remain of it ??
    10. smart ass 7 August 2019 09: 34 New
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      Thanks to the author for the article, after Kaptsov, it burned out for me childishly, I even caught a warning
    11. Fisherman 7 August 2019 12: 03 New
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      I agree. German design engineers are intelligent people, that yesterday, today, tomorrow. A nation that has been fighting all its life cannot, by definition, make poor weapons. They have rich experience in the production of weapons. The enemy in our Second World War was really strong and dangerous, which was reckoned with.
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    13. snerg7520 14 August 2019 18: 04 New
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      Uh, gentlemen, is it that the people were completely smoked with fenced grass and perceive Skomorokhov's humorous article, in which not a single argument of Kaptsov is disproved (it is cursed and ridiculed, yes, but not refuted - carefully re-read both articles) as a revelation?
      Me.262, created from a set of ersatz engines (ersatz engines, ersatz construction, ersatz cannons, ersatz application tactics, etc.) as a combat aircraft was frank shit ersatz, especially in the conditions of lost dominance in the air and its creators, production workers deserve to be awarded the title Hero of the Soviet Union for their enormous contribution to the defeat of the Luftwaffe and for many saved lives of our and allied pilots.
      Skororokhov cites figures taken from pedagogy: “During fights on fighter modifications Me.262, about 150 enemy aircraft were shot down with their own losses of about 100 aircraft,” but he fundamentally forgets to add “out of 2000 produced”, instead of 12000 of these Bf.109 fighters, for it does not leave stone upon stone from his humorous efforts to rehabilitate this fighter substitute. These figures sentence the flying ersatz Me.262 and Kaptsov only called shit shit and chewed in his article the contribution of each ersatz in this set of ersatz to the final result, which is equal to zero.
      Regarding the attitude to our opponents in the Great Patriotic War “with respect and due attention” according to Skomorokhov, then on one fairly well-known Russophobic website Warspot these words justify the full panegyrics of articles about the glorious combat path of the SS men in Russia and allow them to call Little Russian and Lithuanian in their impudent pseudo-historians collaborators of the time of the "reunification of the outskirts with Russia" Russians, and Russians call the term Muscovites pulled out of naphthalene of Polish mythology and ban any dissent.
      1. maxcor1974 15 August 2019 23: 05 New
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        Squealing over your 12000 Bf109. Really amused. But doesn’t it bother you that due to lack of fuel, most German planes in 1945 were already chained to the ground? Why are they still 12000 pieces?
  2. Alceers 5 August 2019 18: 10 New
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    Bravo. Oleg only now has to cram opus about tanks ...
    1. sivuch 6 August 2019 09: 27 New
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      Tipun to your tongue. After all, you’ll add up - now it’s about tanks
  3. Operator 5 August 2019 18: 14 New
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    The main drawback of the Me-262 is its cost, an order of magnitude higher than the cost of the coolest piston fighter in Germany.

    The "glory" of the Luftwaffe that it was bought on the TTX Me-262 and received at its disposal ten times fewer fighters than it could.
    1. Andrey Shmelev 5 August 2019 18: 35 New
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      The main disadvantage of the Me-262 is its cost


      and how much?
      1. Operator 6 August 2019 11: 15 New
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        The cost of production of one Me-262 was six times higher than the cost of production of Me-109
        https://army-reporter.livejournal.com/34258.html

        Plus the costs of R&D, which are not included in the cost of production (see below).
        1. Andrey Shmelev 6 August 2019 12: 31 New
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          good fill)

          tsifiri gave you
          1. Operator 6 August 2019 13: 02 New
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            "Author, write more" (C) laughing

            There will be no links from you, essno.
            1. Andrey Shmelev 6 August 2019 13: 41 New
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              At least read the English-language wiki at your leisure - there the cost of 262 is 87500

              negative
              1. Operator 6 August 2019 14: 20 New
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                At leisure, I advise you to learn English: "Cost glider Me-262 without engines, weapons and electronics was 87 400 RM "(Wiki). And with engines, weapons and electronics, the Me-262 cost six times the Me-109 (see link in my comment). Without R&D expenses, essno.

                The resource of serial Jumo engines was: before overhaul - 25 hours, after overhaul - 35 hours, i.e. a set of engines was enough for 30 flights, then again the acquisition of a new set. As a result, the cost of the Me-262 life cycle was an order of magnitude greater than that of Me-109.

                The reason for the short life of the engines was as simple as a nail - due to the enormous shortage of nickel and cobalt in the Third Reich, non-heat-resistant SAE 1010 steel with aluminum coating was used as a structural material for the Jumo turbine and combustion chamber to protect it from oxidation.

                And from this it turns out that the 1400 Me-262 (of which only a small part reached the front) were "killed" by the 14000 Me-109, who did not need specially trained pilots, techniques and scarce materials.

                And so as not to get up twice:
                - Me-262 flew like an iron, when trying to lay a bend, it immediately had a surge of the engine located inside the bend, so the plane was suitable only as an interceptor for bombers according to the “took off - gained altitude - approaching 100 meters (into the effective fire zone) the aircraft’s cannons and bomber’s machine guns) - made a volley of all the cannons within one to two seconds (the approach speed was very high) - went off to land (the fuel supply was almost zero)
                - Me-262 as a high-speed bomber was also not useful due to the large fuel consumption in high-speed mode, short range and low accuracy of high speed bombing from horizontal flight;
                - Me-262 was easily knocked down by 1944-45 piston fighters of the model year (Spitfires, Mustangs, Aero Cobra, La-7, Yak-3) when attacking from the rear hemisphere in a decrease, when the piston fighters accelerated to 800 km / h (since the Me-X I couldn’t leave in a bend, and going into a climb would not give him anything, since the kinetic energy gained by the piston during the decrease, coupled with the piston engine thrust was quite enough to pursue the Messer at the beginning of the ascending trajectory).
                1. Andrey Shmelev 6 August 2019 14: 27 New
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                  Good to drive) in the evening I’ll persuade
                2. Andrey Shmelev 6 August 2019 23: 46 New
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                  I will answer in pieces, I ask for petition, that slowly, I still have a working day

                  The first one. Learn English

                  What we have on Wiki:

                  Costing RM10,000 for materials, the Jumo 004 also proved somewhat cheaper than the competing BMW 003, which was RM12,000, and cheaper than the Junkers 213 piston engine, which was RM35,000. [11] Moreover, the jets used lower-skill labor and needed only 375 hours to complete (including manufacture, assembly, and shipping), compared to 1,400 for the BMW 801. [12]

                  That is, as I wrote
                  Jumo 004 - 10 thousand
                  BMW 003 - 12 thousand
                  Piston 3-4 times more expensive

                  "You are fast stranded, Silver" (c)

                  The second one. Flight time.

                  a set of engines was enough for 30 flights, then again the acquisition of a new set


                  Let's think: 30 hours is a lot or a little.
                  Suppose, in 1944, an aircraft flew 250 sorties to the WF.
                  The numbers can float, but this will not change the essence.

                  The number of operating aircraft and the loss of drugs is even more confusing than tank losses. Nevertheless, whatever one may say, but it turns out that 30 hours of flight is a very good life expectancy for the entire fighter, not to mention a set of engines.
                  Conclusion: not every aircraft will need a new set of engines.

                  Even if we take the German record holders, then Hartman, for example, was shot down 14 times, 100 sorties for the loss of 1 aircraft from the best German ace according to statistics
                  Conclusion: even with such exceptions, planes live for 100-150 hours, which is completely in line with the earlier conclusion.

                  "You are fast stranded, Silver" (c) - again

                  to be continued ;)
                3. Elturisto 7 August 2019 19: 53 New
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                  good comment in defiance of the German slugs ...
    2. armata_armata 5 August 2019 18: 50 New
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      The "glory" of the Luftwaffe that it was bought on the TTX Me-262 and received at its disposal ten times fewer fighters than it could.

      In a situation of 45 years, when even taking off from the German airfield was not a trivial task, pilots could be counted on the finger the role was already played by the performance characteristics, not the quantity. So in this situation, the bet on the Me-262 was fully justified
      1. Operator 5 August 2019 19: 52 New
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        The fact of the matter is that by spending money on the development of the Me-262, and not on increasing the production of piston fighter jets, the Germans came to the situation of the 1945 year, "when even taking off from the German airfield was a non-trivial task."
        1. armata_armata 5 August 2019 21: 01 New
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          The fact is that, having directed funds to develop the Me-262, and not to increase the production of piston fighters, the Germans came to the situation of 1945

          The Germans approached the situation of 1945 at the moment when they decided to attack the USSR, this was their main miscalculation ... And even if they curtailed all their research programs and switched to the production of pz-4 and bf-109 this would not have saved, because they could not be compared not in human, not in material resources with the USSR
          That is why the original plan was to seize the most industrially developed part of the USSR by quick strikes without letting the latter come to their senses. After this failed, the Germans fully understood the real situation and made a bet on the high performance characteristics of their equipment and this was the only right decision in this situation ... The enemy was not so stupid, he was smart and cunning and made a mistake as he said only once
          1. Operator 5 August 2019 21: 30 New
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            Quote: armata_armata
            The enemy was not so stupid, he was smart and cunning and made a mistake as he said only once

            If he was mistaken, then he was stupid in comparison with his opponents.

            After the Soviet Union, fighting alone, by December 1941 frustrated the German plan for a lightning war, the Germans could do anything (even surrender en masse with the textbook Hitler Kaput), but they had already lost the war with all their promising developments, because against the background of the aggregate GDP of the USA, the British Empire and the USSR, the GDP of Germany, Italy, the occupied countries of Europe and Japan looked like a pot-bellied little thing.
          2. IL-18 6 August 2019 10: 43 New
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            Quote: armata_armata
            And even if they curtailed all their research programs and switched to the production of pz-4 and bf-109

            Nuance. When the Germans got a Hetzer based on the LT-38, our BTT specialists took it very seriously. It became clear that the enemy received a model of armament, which can with an extremely high degree of probability become mass and relatively inexpensive, compared with our T-60, in 1941 in importance. But the "stupid" Germans began to do, and released more than 600 "Royal Tigers", plowing them a significant amount of resources. Apparently the issue of training a sufficient number of crews, transferred production to more expensive, but also more effective means instead of mass ones.
            1. Elturisto 7 August 2019 19: 58 New
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              They were effective for Krupp, Henschel, Rheinmetall and others ... for the tank forces of Germany they were very ineffective. The victory of the USSR in the war with Germany. First of all, the victory of the Soviet engineers, who, given the lack of time and resources, were able to create outstanding models of military equipment.
        2. Andrey Shmelev 5 August 2019 21: 19 New
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          sending funds to develop the Me-262


          and how much?
          1. Lopatov 5 August 2019 21: 35 New
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            Quote: Andrei Shmelev
            and how much?

            And no matter how many.
            1. Andrey Shmelev 6 August 2019 09: 36 New
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              109 and 262 I brought you below
              1. Lopatov 6 August 2019 10: 16 New
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                Cost does not matter.
                For example, you two. and you make chairs. We also decided to make stools. Your colleague took half the instrument and went to learn how to make them.
                The result is clear. No stools, no chairs.
                1. Andrey Shmelev 6 August 2019 11: 20 New
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                  Then write a devastating article about how the presence of diversity in drugs undermined their power

                  Me-110, Me-210, Me-410
                  He-111, Ju-88, Ju-188, Do-217 in parallel production
                  and there were also specialized twin-engine nightlights like He-219
                  it will be much more logical)

                  262 - a heavy twin-engine fighter and in no way is a replacement for a light 109

                  Kaptsov’s amateurish premise “109 or 262”, being accepted by you, caused all your other logical errors, IMHO

                  hi
    3. tomket 6 August 2019 01: 23 New
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      Quote: Operator
      The "glory" of the Luftwaffe that it was bought on the TTX Me-262 and received at its disposal ten times fewer fighters than it could

      As far as I remember, in recent months they have stupidly poked new destroyers in various secluded places, such as sewers, etc. The main trouble there was not a lack of iron, but experienced pilots and fuel.
    4. Cympak 6 August 2019 10: 41 New
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      You need to understand the moment. For the Germans, the Allied bombers raided the main headache. They had to be intercepted. And for this it was necessary to detect, fly up and gain great height, while maintaining speed. Therefore, the Germans needed primarily interceptors, which became Me-262 and Me-163
    5. Operator 7 August 2019 09: 52 New
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      Me-262 1933 units were released, 61 units took part in the battles (32 times less), as a result, the incomplete cost of one combat vehicle (glider with two engines without weapons and electronics according to Pedivikia) was equal to 3 300 000 Reichsmarks laughing

      https://www.gazeta.ru/army/2016/10/23/10265891.shtml?updated
      http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/me262a.html
    6. Bad thing 7 August 2019 22: 23 New
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      Quote: Operator
      Glory to the Luftwaffe that it was bought on the TTX Me-262 and received at its disposal ten times fewer fighters than it could.

      In those years, the problem was not only in the number of aircraft, experienced pilots were not enough, but natural decline.
  4. svp67 5 August 2019 18: 14 New
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    I completely support the author. The Germans were pioneers, and all other countries after the war already used their works ... In particular, the developments on the Messerschmitt R.1101

    and Focke-Wulf Ta 183

    Unpatriotic, but what losses did the Soviet BI-1 have to the enemy? British "Gloucester Meteor"? American P-59 "Aircomet"?
    Of these listed aircraft, one Briton has confirmed victories over the FAA-1 German cruise missiles.
    Quote: Operator
    The main drawback of the Me-262 is its cost, an order of magnitude higher than the cost of the coolest piston fighter in Germany.

    It is somehow forgotten that the Germans fought another type of fighter at the end of the war - Heinkel He 162 Volksjäger
    1. Dooplet11 5 August 2019 19: 22 New
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      I didn’t fight. Just getting ready. No combat episodes recorded.
      1. svp67 5 August 2019 19: 32 New
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        Quote: Dooplet11
        I didn’t fight. Just getting ready. No combat episodes recorded.

        Yes? Alas, you are wrong and fought, and suffered losses. Just a little, from April 20 to 1945 to May 8.
        1. Dooplet11 5 August 2019 19: 59 New
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          The fact that the losses suffered - no doubt. With such an unclaimed engine and an unreliable and non-volatile glider - no wonder. But what about the "fought" ... which units, armed with the Salamander, reached combat readiness? How many sorties took place and how many were shot down? Is there any sane document about this? Type of report or combat report?
  5. Horse, people and soul 5 August 2019 18: 28 New
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    We won, despite and despite. This is worth remembering. And we should consider what our opponents fought with, precisely this way: with respect and due attention.


    Right!

    Humiliating a defeated enemy offends his winners.

    I’m not sure that any of the words used above is not obscene in VO.
    1. Ehanatone 6 August 2019 01: 24 New
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      "By humiliating a defeated opponent, you offend his winners.
      I’m not sure that any of the words used above is not obscene in VO. "
      Yes, now even a simple stool, if you look at it from the right angles, it may well turn out to be obscene, and at least 4 times ...
      1. Horse, people and soul 6 August 2019 13: 57 New
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        So far I have only once got off a warning (without a ban) for a word that by definition is not obscene. Many commentators on VO would be happy if the VO administration would rewrite the part of the "charter" establishing repressions for "obscene words" as for "rude curses".

        So any herring is a fish, but not every fish is a herring.

        To avoid discrepancies and insults.

        I’m not sure that any of the words used above is not obscene in VO.
  6. Andrey Shmelev 5 August 2019 18: 33 New
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    Good evening, Roman!

    I do not pretend to be a cool specialist, so I carefully wrote the following to Kaptsov:

    Good evening, Oleg!
    I have a few simple questions for you:
    1. Does the lifting force of the wing, in addition to the area, also depend on the shape of the wing and the flow velocity, how exactly the lifting force of the wing R-47 and Me-262
    2. how to recalculate the thrust-to-weight ratio of a screw machine and a reactive one in a single system of traction power using the example of R-47 and Me-262
    3.from what features of the wing depends on the stall and related effects on the example of R-47 and Me-262
    cope, talk for guns and sights )


    He didn’t just fail, he didn’t even try. Feels, see.
    What is there about shame and degradation :)

    After that, I don’t even want to answer him that 262 took off not from the aerodrome concrete, but from the highway, and that the Germans were full of weapons, but they consciously chose a very specific type of guns


    You have to be a little more serious, even in the pursuit of popularity.

    for it + 100500 drinks hi
  7. Undecim 5 August 2019 18: 34 New
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    In what way ... That is, comrade Yakovlev perediral Martian spaceship? And the Yak-25 and Yak-28 did not meet these requirements? Strange, but more similarities than necessary. And the tricycle chassis with the front desk, and the engines under the wings ...
    The Yak-25, Yak-27, Yak-28 chassis is not three-post, they have a bicycle chassis.
    1. Undecim 5 August 2019 18: 48 New
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      By the way, in the photo at the beginning of the article is not the original Me-262, but a modern flying replica owned by the Messerschmidt Foundation. Made in 2004-2005. at the Boeing factory in Everett.
      Unlike the original, the replica uses General Electric J85 / CJ-610 engines.
  8. MoJloT 5 August 2019 18: 39 New
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    It is very good that there was a man who was not too lazy to write something more than a comment and put Oleg on the shelves. Respect!
  9. certero 5 August 2019 18: 40 New
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    The Germans were the first and it was difficult for them. But the adoption of this aircraft into service was a mistake.
    1. Andrey Shmelev 5 August 2019 18: 46 New
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      But the adoption of this aircraft into service was a mistake.


      can you justify?
      1. Lopatov 5 August 2019 18: 58 New
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        Quote: Andrei Shmelev
        can you justify?

        They did not solve a single problem of the Germans.
        1. Andrey Shmelev 5 August 2019 19: 02 New
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          They didn't decide not a single problem of the Germans. ;)

          Like Panzershrek, like Sturmgevere, like boats of the 21st series, like guided bombs, like acoustic torpedoes

          Solid errors;)
          1. Lopatov 5 August 2019 19: 11 New
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            Quote: Andrei Shmelev
            They did not decide

            They didn’t decide. At the decision-making stage at the beginning of mass production.
            Neither could they ensure the inexpediency of massive bombing, or at least provide local air supremacy on the eastern, and even more so on the western fronts, by default.

            Plus a fuel problem. To let out a plane that by default eats it much more than piston ones was a bit silly at that time.

            And then why release them?
            1. Andrey Shmelev 5 August 2019 19: 32 New
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              Plus a fuel problem. To let out a plane that by default eats it much more than piston ones was a bit silly at that time.

              belay

              Me-262 flew on J-2 (heavy kerosene) and K1 (diesel)
              B4 gasoline was used only as a fuel for a two-stroke starter

              Neither ensure the inexpediency of massive bombing, nor provide at least local air supremacy


              and nitsche that they were few and late?
              1. Lopatov 5 August 2019 19: 35 New
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                Quote: Andrei Shmelev
                Me-262 flew on J-2 (heavy kerosene) and K1 (diesel)

                Who cares? Oil or synthetics. The first at the final stage of the war was constantly lacking, the production of the second was regularly bombed by the British with the Americans.

                Quote: Andrei Shmelev
                and nitsche that they were few and late?

                The fact that "late" and the fact that "little" is a direct result of the revolutionary design
                1. Operator 5 August 2019 19: 59 New
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                  Shmelev (equating Me-262 with Panzershrek) does not understand this.
                  1. Andrey Shmelev 5 August 2019 20: 30 New
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                    Shmelev (equating Me-262 with Panzershrek) does not understand this.


                    All that you could push? Sorry sight )
                2. Andrey Shmelev 5 August 2019 20: 29 New
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                  Who cares? Oil or synthetics.


                  the only difference is that you don’t need to talk with a hint about how the 262nd ate the unfortunate 109th

                  direct result of revolutionary design


                  The 262nd is not in itself to blame for not being launched into the series in 1943
                  and the fact that the Americans tore the Japanese at the British flag and were able to climb into Europe
                  and the fact that there are not enough resources
                  and that on all fronts is a disaster

                  Threat. Dear colleague, minus, of course, is not mine. But today, IMHO, you are very wrong.
                  1. Lopatov 5 August 2019 20: 51 New
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                    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
                    the only difference is that you don’t need to talk with a hint about how the 262nd ate the unfortunate 109th

                    There is a hint that he has eaten everyone. Down to the naval

                    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
                    The 262nd is not in itself to blame for not being launched into the series in 1943

                    Yes, even in the 40th. The sooner I went into the series, the more they would suffer with him, identifying and eliminating childhood diseases.


                    Quote: Andrei Shmelev
                    You are very wrong.

                    In what
                    I have not yet seen from you a single objection in essence.
                    Fact 1. The plane could not solve any of the many problems. facing the luftwaffe
                    Fact 2. The plane ate resources, taking them not only from aviation. And it's not just about fuel.
                    Fact 3 The plane ate human resources. Both pilots and techies. Like it or not, a mediocre reactive specialist was obtained from a good specialist. And from a mediocre .... Similarly, for specialists in industry.
                    Fact 4 The plane ate the resources of industry.

                    And so forth ...

                    From which I personally have the only conclusion. No matter how good the new plane is. he was not needed. It happens. And often.
                    1. Andrey Shmelev 5 August 2019 21: 19 New
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                      he ate everyone. Down to the naval


                      ok, with A&H we already considered the percentage of consumption as hypothetical "diesel Panthers"
                      Can you name the percentage of fuel consumption 262 of the entire balance?

                      Yes, even in the 40th.


                      generally an incorrect way of discussion, in 1945 he had neither fuel, nor pilots, nor airfields that would not bomb / lead "to take off / landing, etc.
                      not a single LV plane could prove itself in 1945, even a MiG-15 hitman could not

                      Fact 1. The plane could not solve any of the many problems. facing the luftwaffe
                      Fact 2. The plane ate resources, taking them not only from aviation. And it's not just about fuel.
                      Fact 3 The plane ate human resources. Both pilots and techies. Like it or not, a mediocre reactive specialist was obtained from a good specialist. And from a mediocre .... Similarly, for specialists in industry.
                      Fact 4 The plane ate the resources of industry.

                      see above.

                      In the meantime, answer, pst, WHAT EXACTLY a WWII-era plane would solve the LV problems instead of 262?
                      1. Lopatov 5 August 2019 21: 34 New
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                        Quote: Andrei Shmelev
                        Can you name the percentage of fuel consumption 262 of the entire balance?

                        Does it really matter? You might think that the Me-262 consumed as fuel what had previously been poured 8))))

                        Quote: Andrei Shmelev
                        in 1945 he had no fuel, no pilots, no airfields

                        Yeah. The plane was made exclusively on time. And the fact that for him there was "no fuel, no pilots. No airfields" (c) the right word, such a trifle 8)))))))))))

                        Quote: Andrei Shmelev
                        see above.

                        "above" there is nothing.


                        Quote: Andrei Shmelev
                        In the meantime, answer, pst, WHAT EXACTLY a WWII-era plane would solve the LV problems instead of 262?

                        109. 110, 190. Modernized.
                      2. tlauicol 6 August 2019 08: 11 New
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                        I completely agree with you and Kaptsov - the Germans created a golden weight for the leg
                      3. Lopatov 6 August 2019 08: 13 New
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                        Quote: Tlauicol
                        the Germans created a golden weight to the leg

                        They made a big start for the future.
                        Only this future they did not have.
                    2. Andrey Shmelev 6 August 2019 09: 31 New
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                      109. 110, 190. Modernized.


                      for which they did not have all the same


                      109 cost about 130 thousand RM, including about 45 thousand engine, about 15 thousand equipment and weapons, that is, in itself about 70 thousand RM

                      262 cost about 90 thousand RM, two engines in the amount of about 20 thousand RM, I don’t know the equipment and weapons, but it turns out 262 is cheaper than 109

                      there will be fundamentally excellent figures or objections justified by the facts - come back;)
                    3. Lopatov 6 August 2019 10: 26 New
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                      Quote: Andrei Shmelev
                      for which they did not have all the same

                      For which a proven production technology was available. trained people and tooling. Who flew from unpaved airfields, for which there were trained pilots.
                      Quote: Andrei Shmelev
                      about 45 thousand engine

                      Quote: Andrei Shmelev
                      two engines in the amount of about 20 thousand RM

                      You "forgot" about such a small nuance as a resource. Which with qualified service was not less than 4 times less.
                      Multiply 20 by 4?
                      Similarly, the resource of the glider and so on ...
                    4. Operator 6 August 2019 10: 56 New
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                      Moreover, even if the number of 90 thousand Reichsmarks is correct (which I strongly doubt), it only reflects the cost of production of one aircraft and does not include the costs of search research, applied research and development for the period from the end of 1930 to the beginning of 1940 to be attributed to 1400 Me-262.

                      For Me-109 or FV-190, the indicated research and development costs are allocated to more than an order of magnitude more aircraft.

                      One technology of heat-resistant alloys for the production of turbine blades and combustion chambers of jet engines is worth it.

                      This is after the technological and production base has been developed and created from scratch, you can rivet the products, as Czechoslovakia did after WWII, in the factories of which the German Meich German Me-262 and engines for it were shock-made, and after the war - Czechoslovak Avia S- fighter 92 and Avia CS-92 two-seat training aircraft.
                    5. Andrey Shmelev 6 August 2019 11: 26 New
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                      should be attributed to 1400 Me-262.


                      bring down righteous anger on Me-110, Me-210, Me-410 and other heavy fighters - they also devoured OCD
                      Me-209 and Me-309, by the way, also devoured OCD

                      this we have not yet reached all sorts of Do-335;)
                    6. Operator 6 August 2019 13: 04 New
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                      Think in the right direction.
                    7. Andrey Shmelev 6 August 2019 13: 10 New
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                      I’m yes, from the very beginning, but some are not)
              2. Andrey Shmelev 6 August 2019 11: 24 New
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                Which with qualified service was not less than 4 times less.


                it depends on whether to force the 605th in afterburner mode to experience detonation)

                20 by 4 multiply yourself


                and who said that both engines are completely thrown away, and not go to kapitalku? compare the replacement of the blades in 004 and the replacement of the cylinder block by 605;)
      2. Crimean partisan 1974 7 August 2019 08: 41 New
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        Yes, even in the 40th. The sooner I went to the series ....... here I will disappoint you
        the first units began to form at the end of 1944, and here we go from theory to practice. "jet" victory on the Me-262
        1 Kurt Velter is a night fighter, out of 61 wins, 30 are "jet", so far no one has achieved anything on jet fighters
        2. Rademacher-24
        3 bam-16
        the list goes on, and one can imagine how many such Velters and Rademacher would have appeared since 1940, there may well have been no famous “1000 Haris bombers”, it should also be noted that if the daytime victories of the Luftwaffe aces can be mistrusted, then the victims of night-lights fell on the territory of the Reich and were provided with board numbers and unit codes, like this
  • Gato 5 August 2019 22: 01 New
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    They did not solve a single problem of the Germans

    All the problems of the Germans at that time could be solved only by the atomic bomb. In principle, it doesn’t even matter who it would appear to be - with them or with the Allies.
  • certero 5 August 2019 19: 33 New
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    And what is there to justify. Instead of reactive, they would make two to three times more piston ones. And they would have shot down more bombers. Any techie will tell you that it’s easier to increase the output of already familiar products than to master a new one.
    1. Gato 5 August 2019 22: 03 New
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      it is much easier to increase the output of already familiar products

      Except for the pilots. You can build it up without problems, a familiar thing lol only to grow and learn is long and expensive.
  • lucul 5 August 2019 22: 54 New
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    can you justify?

    The Germans climbed onto a new generation of aircraft, without a theoretical justification or developed material science.
    It's like a raft trying to cross the sea.
  • polar fox 5 August 2019 18: 55 New
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    Quote: certero
    But the adoption of this aircraft into service was a mistake.

    it was a mistake to climb the USSR.
    1. certero 5 August 2019 19: 34 New
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      It’s hard to disagree.
  • Raphael_83 5 August 2019 18: 42 New
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    Considering that the Mk-108 was also used on the ground (I read it in someone’s memoirs, I don’t remember now), by the sum of its qualities it’s not so much a gun as an automatic grenade launcher. A sort of AGS-17 in aviation performance. laughing
    But, seriously on today's topic, then yes - that Oleg’s material turned out to be somewhat ... biased, here. what
  • Amateur 5 August 2019 19: 00 New
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    for the former, there is Kaptsov, for the latter, Andrei from Chelyabinsk.

    And also in VO there is E. Damantsev. True, they regularly put cons in his address for spiteful comments, but nothing prevents us from waiting for the best! good
  • The comment was deleted.
  • yehat 5 August 2019 19: 10 New
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    small remark to the article
    Approached the same 200-300 meters and beat? Laziness Pokryshkin leaf through?

    I'm in one of the docks. I heard films that Americans on mustangs and other machine-gun fighters often did sighting in general between 50 and 100 meters, i.e. farther than 100 meters they rarely shot.
    many veterans advised about the same thing - shoot closer
    the most successful German fortress breakers shot them point blank, despite the powerful return fire.
    further, personal experience. I flew in the Il-2 simulator and give simple statistics. The more experienced the pilot, the closer the distance at which he shoots down or bombs (except for heavy bombers). Beginners are pounding from a kilometer. I flew mostly on the thing. At first he threw bombs from 2-4 kilometers and ungodly anointed, then when he became an expert, he often dropped from 400-600 meters, to be more precise, dodging a heap of anti-aircraft fire.
    Why am I saying all this - close shooting in the air, this is not just a whim, it is a reality tested by experience and by and large it was of little importance where the projectile flies further 150-200m. From a distance, they fired only rockets at a system of bombers or sometimes from powerful cannons single at large targets with the Yak-9t or aerial cobra style.
    And there were flying bf-110, ju-88, P-38 batteries.
    for them I honestly still don’t know how important ballistics was at distances of 200-500m.
    1. Aristarkh Lyudvigovich 5 August 2019 19: 23 New
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      The fact is that the MK-108 guns were a rather peculiar weapon. Structurally, they represented an aircraft “PPSh”: a stamped shutter box, automation operated on the principle of recoil of a free shutter. But for the simplicity of the design had to pay tactical characteristics of weapons. The free shutter limited the initial speed of the 330-gram projectile MK-108 to 540 m / s. The cannon firing rate was also low - 600 rounds per minute. For comparison, the 20-mm shell of the German MG-150 aircraft gun left the barrel at a speed of 805 m / s, and the rate of fire of the gun was up to 900 rounds per minute. The low initial velocity of the MK-108 projectile led to a large dispersion of the line, and the effective firing range was the distance 150 – 200 meters, that is, almost point-blank. 11 September 1944 g. Pilots from the 262 test team for the first time attacked heavy bombers. They intercepted the B-17 compound from the 100 bombing group returning after the raid, escorted by Mustangs from the 339 fighter group. In fact, jet fighters attacked a group that had already been beaten over the target. The bombers have already suffered heavy losses as a result of the Me.109 and PV-190 attacks. Despite this, the Me.262 did not shoot down a single Flying Fortress, only one pilot of fighter jets - Helmut Baudah - managed to shoot down the Mustang escort forces. The next day, the Americans carried out massive raids on various targets in southern Germany. Over 900 bombers attacked oil refineries and aircraft factories. During the confrontation, German air defense forces destroyed the 31 B-17 and B-24. Most of these aircraft were shot down by Me.109 and FV-190 piston fighters. Only three cars became victims of Me.262 - Captain Georg-Peter Eder from the 262 test team shot down two Flying Fortresses reliably and one probably.
      Quote: yehat
      I flew in the simulator IL-2

      And in real life, they sat behind the helm?
      1. Operator 5 August 2019 20: 32 New
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        The 30-mm MK-108 was an analogue of the 20-mm Erlikon (and not PPSh), since it fired at the shutter using a sleeve with a reduced flange diameter.

        In order to reduce recoil (which on the long-barrel version reached 2 tons), the length of the barrel and the weight of gunpowder in the cartridge were reduced for the MK-108. At the same time, this allowed to reduce the weight of the free shutter and the gun receiver.

        However, in general, the MK-108 was a more miserable design than the long-barrel 30-mm MK-103 with a progressive gas-powered reloading mechanism. The author of the article was greatly mistaken in assessing the MK-108, but Kaptsov did not.
        1. Vlad.by 5 August 2019 23: 16 New
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          With such weight and equipment of the MK-108 shell, dispersing the line is more likely a benefit than a disadvantage. Of the dozen shells fired at the target, in fact, the cloud, you look at a couple of three and it’s hit. And given the striking properties of a grenade - it was almost fatal for any aircraft.
      2. Dooplet11 5 August 2019 20: 43 New
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        I flew in the simulator IL-2

        And in real life, they sat behind the helm?

        Well you! What for? ! The ability to combine a cross on the monitor screen with a moving mark makes a person an expert in aerial shooting.
        1. Nitochkin 6 August 2019 02: 47 New
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          Quote: Dooplet11
          I flew in the simulator IL-2

          And in real life, they sat behind the helm?

          Well you! What for? ! The ability to combine a cross on the monitor screen with a moving mark makes a person an expert in aerial shooting.

          BGG, from the topic "did not read, but condemn."
          In vain irony. The simulator is very realistic. Flight dynamics at the level of the famous MFS. Weapon features and damage are very plausibly modeled. So it’s quite possible to feel that shooting more efficiently from close range.
          1. Dooplet11 6 August 2019 04: 23 New
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            Bgg .... "I read" and soberly assess the degree of simulation. And after the respected yehat said that he measures the lead in meters, his expert estimates of aerial shooting acquired special significance for me.
            By the way, in the Il-2 BzX simulator, the sights are modeled with gross errors (it is better not to remember about DM and damage caused). Starting from the wrong angular size of the grids of collimator sights and ending with the absence of a ballistic correction on the Mustang and Spit gyroscopes.
            Did you know that at a distance of less than 200 yards the gyro sight lied with the removal of the moving mark? Due to the design features. And just why the Mustang pilots could not shoot from 50-100 meters?
            1. Nitochkin 6 August 2019 10: 08 New
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              Quote: Dooplet11
              Bgg .... "I read" and soberly assess the degree of simulation. And after dear yehat said it measures lead in meters, his expert estimates of aerial shooting have acquired special significance for me.
              By the way, in the Il-2 BzX simulator, the sights are modeled with gross errors (it is better not to remember about DM and damage caused). Starting from the wrong angular size of the grids of collimator sights and ending with the absence of a ballistic correction on the Mustang and Spit gyroscopes.
              Did you know that at a distance of less than 200 yards the gyro sight lied with the removal of the moving mark? Due to the design features. And just why the Mustang pilots could not shoot from 50-100 meters?


              Once again, bgg. A quote from Yehat’s post about the fact that it was about pre-empting (in meters), and not about the distance, to the studio. I did not find the word "lead".
              Before the Battle of Britain was released, there was a perfectly suitable simulator. He transmitted all the main parameters and characteristics as realistically as possible.
              How could they not, did they have a blocker? )) You can shoot from 50-100 meters without a sight at all, or Amer pilots without toilet paper cf. did not sit down when itch?
              1. Dooplet11 6 August 2019 10: 37 New
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                A quote from a post by Yehat about the fact that it was about pre-emption (in meters), and not about the distance, to the studio
                - this is in the comments yehata look. To the article by Skomorokhov on Mass.
                He transmitted all the main parameters and characteristics as realistically as possible.
                - the key "as possible." But this is unlikely to serve for 100% x conclusions on the characteristics of firing on real aircraft. Rather, the opposite is true - shooting on real airplanes can serve as a benchmark for evaluating a "simulator."
                How could they not, did they have a blocker? )) You can shoot from 50-100 meters without a sight at all, or Amer pilots without toilet paper cf. did not sit down when itch?
                - at distances less than 200 yards, the sight calculator generated an incorrect lead. No, of course, you could shoot, and even hit, but:
                a) this is shooting “on the boot”,
                b) the time of firing at the target and the accuracy of the hit is significantly reduced.
                It is possible that the respected yehat did not quite correctly understand the sighting. If we turn to the shooting maps, we see that the arrow is fired at a reduced shooting distance. Moreover, the shooting distance is much less than the firing distance. For the 12,7 Mustang Browning, the reduced installation distance of the sighting shield at 100m corresponded to the firing distance of 720m (800 yards). And this does not mean that if Mustang’s weapons were fired at 100m, then ALL pilots ALWAYS fired from 100m.
                In addition, I add that the firing distance is taken not from the ceiling, and not at the request of the pilot, but from the maximum probability of hitting the target, based on the characteristics of the weapon and speed and size of the target.
            2. yehat 6 August 2019 10: 50 New
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              but what does the error in the sights?
              I brought IL-2 because there the practice of flights, despite the simpler physics, despite the fact that it’s much easier to get there from 400 m into the plane with a gun, also led to the fact that pilots prefer to shoot at point blank range, confirming the practice air war ww2.
              The simplified "damage model" still led to that. that experienced pilots try to shoot not with a hose into the silhouette, but by targeting weak points and this also coincides with the experience of war.
              I brought all this just to show that very many INDEPENDENTLY came to the same practice - shooting from a short distance (aiming or relying on the powerful weight of the volley).
              I do not discuss the quality of the sights or the accuracy of the simulator, I am saying that the MK108 gun was suitable for the realities of what was happening.
              1. Dooplet11 6 August 2019 16: 21 New
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                laughing
                The sight is not needed, right? The main thing - at point blank range.
                Does the sim confirm this?
                I brought all this just to show that very many INDEPENDENTLY came to the same practice - shooting from a short distance (aiming or relying on the powerful weight of the volley).

                By the end of the war, the British with the MkI, the Americans with the K-14, the Germans with the EZ-42, ours with the ASP-1 came to one practice - sights that allowed for effective shooting at a distance of 800-1000m. Probably in vain! They did not play the simulator.
                1. yehat 6 August 2019 16: 25 New
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                  you are engaged in demagogy and trying to distort taking out of context what was said.
                  or doubt that from your quotes can hellish hellish nonsense?
                  1. Dooplet11 6 August 2019 18: 23 New
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                    Well, if documents and facts are demagogy, then you are right. The fact that you are able to pull and get nonsense on the way out - I have no doubt. The sighting of the Mustang on the 50-100 is an example. wink
                    1. yehat 7 August 2019 10: 40 New
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                      you really like digging in, but I won’t repeat your trolling methods.
                      I know that I’m telling the truth because I took it from sources directly related to the primary sources. But I don’t want to argue with you and for this to get deep into an unfamiliar topic. I can argue in another topic, where you are a complete zero, but I know something.
                      I like it more.
                      1. Dooplet11 7 August 2019 10: 58 New
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                        I can argue in another topic, where you are a complete zero, but I know something.
                        - That is, it must be assumed that in THIS topic you are a complete zero, since you are proposing this?
                        And to argue with you and get deep into it in an unfamiliar topic I do not want.

                        Here you go! It turns out that the topic is unfamiliar, and you do not want to get into it. But they had already climbed in, claiming that the Mustangs also shot at the 50-100m, and the pilots started shooting from the 50-100m.
                        At the same time, you are sure that:
                        i know i'm telling the truth, because I took it from sources directly related to the source.

                        Have you taken something from some sources (which ones? If specifically, to verify that this "truth" is really there?). Do these sources have direct links to the source? We’ll see it as soon as we see the link to the source, and see it.
                        In the meantime, I have provided you primary sourcesthat indicate that You tell a lie (just broadcasting it, or distorting what you heard, perhaps because the topic, it turns out, is, by your own admission, unfamiliar!).
                        In such a situation, yes, it’s better not to argue so as not to wave the flag of your incompetence.
          2. Dooplet11 6 August 2019 05: 50 New
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            shoot more efficiently at close range.
            shoot more efficiently from a calculated distance. And it’s safer to shoot at a bomb from a distance greater than the effective effective range of defensive weapons. Do not feel the logical gap between the fact that the range-finder device of the Mustang gyro sight was designed for a distance of 180-720m and the fact that yehat claims about sighting Mustang machine guns on 100? Either the K-14 scope designers thought the wrong place, or yehat not watching the movies.
            1. Nitochkin 6 August 2019 10: 15 New
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              Quote: Dooplet11
              shoot more efficiently at close range.
              shoot more efficiently from a calculated distance. And it’s safer to shoot at a bomb from a distance greater than the effective effective range of defensive weapons. Do not feel the logical gap between the fact that the range-finder device of the Mustang gyro sight was designed for a distance of 180-720m and the fact that yehat claims about sighting Mustang machine guns on 100? Either the K-14 scope designers thought the wrong place, or yehat not watching the movies.


              Tell the memories of Kozhedub, Pokryshkin and other aces about the estimated distance.
              BGG is safer. Well, yes, you come up, so smart, to a safe distance, and you start to bring down a bomber, for example, from the Cabinets. And everyone around is watching and waiting for when you are done and you can start shooting.
              Mustang, Mustang, here is "Fortunate forty Jacob one thing about everyone." Pray for him or what?
              1. Dooplet11 6 August 2019 11: 10 New
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                It's not me about shooting Mustang pilots with 50m started. wink
              2. Dooplet11 6 August 2019 16: 29 New
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                Give you a link to the video, where Pokryshkin fulfills angles and lead with the layout of the reticle? Perhaps this is it for filmmakers. What the hell was that, working out the characteristic angular dimensions and design distances, if possible without emphasis?
              3. Dooplet11 7 August 2019 08: 20 New
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                BGG is safer. Well, yes, you come up, so smart, to a safe distance, and you start to bring down a bomber, for example, from the Cabinets. And everyone around is watching and waiting for when you are done and you can start shooting.

                -This is not me, this is an instruction for conducting air combat by fighters. As you can see, the effectiveness of firing is important, and security is not overlooked. The minimum distance does not imply point-blank shooting, but shooting at a calculated distance, which provides both security and conditions for the time of firing and for the parameters of the angular movement of the target. The smart ones came, fell, and left. And the foolish came up and fell:
              4. Dooplet11 7 August 2019 15: 03 New
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                Tell the memories of Kozhedub, Pokryshkin and other aces about the estimated distance.

                Each of them has passed, at least, this:


                Although, perhaps, in the memoirs they did not mention it. You, telling how you drove home
                by car, mention how and what was taught in traffic rules?
                Roman Skomorokhov will also be useful to refer to this document. In order not to say that the concept of wing loading for pilots is unknown and not necessary. wink
            2. yehat 6 August 2019 10: 59 New
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              you don’t seem to understand what I'm talking about.
              shooting was needed for vehicles with the main armament in the wings, so that the cannon of information was tuned to a certain distance, because simply parallel position led to excess dispersion.
              I'm not talking about preemptive shooting at all and before you teach someone, try to understand what the person said, and do not fantasize stupid things.

              Why was the main weapon in the wings? because a large battery of trunks in the nose of the car was rarely able to accommodate.
              1. Dooplet11 6 August 2019 11: 21 New
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                Do you understand the meaning of the terms: sighting distance, information cone, shooting distance, midpoint and hit ellipse? Have you ever seen a shooting card for a real airplane? Do you know what she looks like? Did you know that scattering is not always superfluous, and hits are "decisive", "useful" and "useless"?
                Before making general conclusions on the basis of the simulator, first get acquainted with at least Colonel I.V. "Use of weapons in aerial combat" Chaikin.
              2. Dooplet11 6 August 2019 11: 24 New
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                sighting was needed for cars with the main armament in the wings so that
                - You can immediately see the amateur from the simulator. Zeroing is necessary for any aviation small arms (and not only aviation!). Even the turret.
      3. yehat 6 August 2019 10: 43 New
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        yes, on an-2 and in the training moment-21.
        1. Dooplet11 7 August 2019 07: 57 New
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          yes, on an-2 and in the training moment-21.
          - "Pokatuhi" is a cool combat experience! How many flight hours?
          1. yehat 7 August 2019 10: 28 New
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            not only pokatuhi, took control.
            An-2 take-off and box around the airfield.
            for a moment-21, only cautious simplest maneuvers before the instructor flattened me on overloads from the heart - I’m full zero on reactive ones.
            1. Dooplet11 7 August 2019 11: 06 New
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              Great, happy for you. But these tests hardly make you an expert in aerial shooting. There is no practice. And the theory is also at zero. The only baggage is the experience of combining a cross on the monitor screen with a moving mark.
              PS. You probably should be aware that the pilot is better able to perceive overloads and is better able to perform their functions when exposed to them than other crew members. Since he is ready for them, and he controls them.
      4. Crimean partisan 1974 7 August 2019 16: 59 New
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        In the course of the confrontation, the German air defense forces destroyed 31 “V-17” and “V-24” ....... well, if you operate with numbers, what fell into the sight of the Me-262-A1 Kurt Welter necessarily fell with junk to the mother earth. otherwise, how can we explain that this pilot, having crossed from the FV-190 to the Me-262, crashed 30 Allied planes, having accomplished 40 sorties, a total of 91 sorties were 64 wins, moreover, he piled 25 “mosquitoes”, given that the Germans piled “mosquitoes” in total a little over a hundred. then 25 is a significant contribution, and this is the Me-262
    2. Dooplet11 5 August 2019 20: 31 New
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      I'm in one of the docks. I heard films that Americans on mustangs and other machine-gun fighters often did sighting in general between 50 and 100 meters, i.e. further 100 meters rarely shot

      Apparently, the film was not documentary ....
    3. Oleg Zorin 5 August 2019 22: 37 New
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      "Shoot when you see rivets on an enemy plane"
    4. Dooplet11 6 August 2019 17: 41 New
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      I'm in one of the docks. movies heard that the Americans on mustangs and other machine gun fighters often did sighting in general between 50 and 100 meters, i.e. further 100 meters rarely shot.

      First, let's define the terms.
      Weapon reduction, is the distance to the point at which the area of ​​the total scattering ellipse of all trunks is minimal.
      Sighting - the process of combining the aiming line with the midpoint of scattering at a given distance. this point may not coincide with the information point.
      Turning to the source?

      Details for P-51:

      the information distance is 1000 feet (approximately 300m), the firing distance is 2000 feet, and the distance of greatest effectiveness is 1200 feet.
      Targeting card for P-51:
      - for shooting in two versions, - on 500 feet (150м) and on 1000 feet (300м). This is all for effective fire distances for the above information in 1000 feet.
      Now consider a circuit from the same source:

      It is obvious from it that the smaller the distance to the target at the time of the opening of the fire, the shorter the time it is conducted.
      Maybe an airplane with a weapon in the fuselage doesn’t need a sighting? We look for Lightning:

      Stunned! It turns out that you also need to shoot? What about the mix? There is also an adjustment scheme !:
      1. Dooplet11 6 August 2019 17: 46 New
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        Here she is:


        Dear yehat, Seryozha! It seems to me that someone is misleading. Either you or US AAF Headquarters. I bet 100 vs 1 what you are.
  • Potter 5 August 2019 19: 13 New
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    There is no 1-0 in favor of Skomorokhov. On the contrary. Everything was mixed up - horses, people, planes with an arrow-shaped wing and not swept, aircraft with a mass of 15 tons and 6 tons, it was written very emotionally, it was thrown so much that I did not even want to disassemble the point-by-point.
    s.s From the very beginning - Andrey from Chelyabinsk - a specialist in battleships. Not unfoundedly emotional, like Kaptsov, but armed with knowledge.
    1. Dooplet11 5 August 2019 20: 33 New
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      One "special" "denied" another "special". I'm talking about Skomorokhov and Kaptsov. Cheerful number turned out.
    2. Red_Baron 5 August 2019 23: 06 New
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      Well, many articles on politics and Skorokhov's analysis can be decomposed even finer than he believes the opponent did in this article. And the tricks are generally indecent. Unfortunately, there are a lot of appeals to readers' emotions in almost all articles, rather than common sense. This is often the whole argument.
      But in this article, nevertheless, in my extremely unprofessional opinion, Skomorokhov is essentially right.
      1. Dooplet11 6 August 2019 05: 57 New
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        Maybe it’s right that it refutes nonsense, but refuting nonsense is such an original way of debating?
        1. fighter angel 6 August 2019 09: 52 New
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          Alexander!
          I agree with you 100500%!
          There was not only one nonsense, here you are, one more!
          Right "some kind of" air battle ". Let's make a noise, make a noise !!!
  • Grafova Irina 5 August 2019 19: 18 New
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    Well laid out. Fervently so ...
  • evgen1221 5 August 2019 19: 33 New
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    Sorry for the insolence, but how can you illegally stamp (tear as you put it) a legally purchased engine with a production license? I'm talking about RR Nine. But in general, Kaptsov is right to smash, if you write it clearly and truthfully without alternative twists with reality.
    1. AUL
      AUL 5 August 2019 20: 27 New
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      In addition to Nina, a license for Dervent was also purchased. One with an axial compressor, the other with a centrifugal compressor.
  • certero 5 August 2019 19: 35 New
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    Quote: yehat
    many veterans advised about the same thing - shoot closer

    Shoot when you can see the rivets - I have repeatedly read this in my memoirs.
  • Doliva63 5 August 2019 20: 10 New
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    Quote: polar fox
    Quote: certero
    But the adoption of this aircraft into service was a mistake.

    it was a mistake to climb the USSR.

    This was not a mistake, but a systematic attempt to crush socialism. But our “rudders” turned out to be “cooler” - the country itself collapsed.
  • Rurikovich 5 August 2019 20: 10 New
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    At least Kaptsov’s articles dilute VO’s already too “adult” style yes Take any article by Kaptsov and gather up mistakes, inconsistencies, and grasping there, but they are diluted with sarcasm, attempts to popularize any topic Oleg writes about. He lacks powerful analytics based on a heap of research, and he doesn’t need it! But he also had materials that made him think and scratch his turnips. It’s sometimes more interesting to read than opuses about “Sumeria” and its ancient aborigines .... But you read Kaptsov’s with a smile, you always think that Oleg will mix in a bunch .. .. Everyone was longing for his articles when he began to "disappear" for a long time.
    And he does not allow the site to slide to dry statistics, diluting the materials of some adequate authors, even in their topics, whether battleships or aircraft yes
    Personally, I considered the article by Kaptsov on Me-262 to be the personal opinion of the author, without a hint of academic work request smile
    There are 7 billion natives on Earth, which means there are 7 billion opinions, and Oleg, like me, as well as the radiant and bulby mulens, are among these ... drinks hi
  • haron 5 August 2019 20: 15 New
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    Quote: Operator
    The main drawback of the Me-262 is its cost, an order of magnitude higher than the cost of the coolest piston fighter in Germany.

    Good afternoon.
    As far as I understand the meaning of the article, and in general the situation of the last year of the war, the absence of high-quality pilots should be considered the main drawback.
    The “Zhelotorotik” that Me109, that ME 262, will fall, if not immediately, then quickly. And here perhaps 262 just partially compensated for the shortcomings of the inexperience sitting on the rotorcraft. Landing for 262 average pilots got a shot in 150 cars, and 100 lost (partly due to illness of newborns). For a raw, car that's more than good. Compare with the same panthers near Kursk, how many of them did not reach the battlefield, in principle, while with an experienced crew under armor.
    Cadres decide everything. and it seems to me that this was the main problem of 262 and Germany at the end of the war.

    One thing is completely incomprehensible to me. Why did the Soviet Union at the end of the war question with personnel was a mirror?
    1. haron 5 August 2019 21: 12 New
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      Quote: haron
      the main disadvantage must be considered

      PS.
      I’ll add about another possible “root” of defect 262. This is Adik’s idea to use it initially as a blitz scorer. They talked about him as fighters late.

      And what does he need as a fighter, what Adik didn’t have - weapons.
      The difference in approach speed is -150-200 km / h. it is 40-50 m / s, with a firing distance of MK108 of 200-300 meters an extra 4 seconds and 40 shells, to catch this time requires not only skill, but skill. And we must still not catch 12,5mm.
      Need a different gun and a different sight.

      The chic idea of ​​a thin-walled 30 mm MK108 shell, hammered with RDX, partially relied on its low speed (the design of the fuse and the shell for undermining the shell in a shell, in a semi-submerged state, so to speak) is simpler. The issue was not resolved by simply lengthening the trunk. A more radical idea was needed.

      And so. Fantasies realized later, but then quite feasible in the presence of desire, time and meaning. 30x165 is 960m / s + 50g explosives. This is the opening of fire from 1000 meters. And even with one and not 4 cannons, the number of hits is comparable to 108, the risk of getting under 12x99mm is less ....
      I repeat that this is not an RPG in 1945, the task is relatively simpler, but it was not posed. Accordingly, for 262 there was no adequate weapon and sights capable of showing the advantages of the aircraft.
      But this is no longer the 262 problem, this is the problem of Adik & Co.
      IMHO.
      1. Moore 6 August 2019 05: 30 New
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        Quote: haron
        I’ll add about another possible “root” of defect 262. This is Adik’s idea to use it initially as a blitz scorer.

        It seems like Messerschmitt originally did the fighter, Hitler changed for a long time, either allowing serial production, or postponing it. In the end, he came up with a reasonably sound idea to make a high-speed bomber out of the 262nd - he deeply dug Aloizych, realizing that if you didn’t destroy the enemy on the ground, you might not need air defense. But Goering associates stupidly put a bolt at the direction of the leader and began to rivet fighters - they are cooler.
        Hitler yelled at them, nibbled the carpet in his office, but quickly calmed down, because Parteigenossen rolled him the Arado. This happened, however, already in November of the 44th, when with a jet bomber, and without it, it was already necessary to figure out the number of ampoules for quick self-cutting.
    2. Operator 5 August 2019 21: 20 New
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      Quote: haron
      150 machines, and 100 lost

      According to the author of the article, most of the lost Me-262 was due to the fault of low qualification of personnel as pilots and technicians. The rules of flight operation of the Me-262 were much more complex than piston fighters, otherwise the surge of jet engines was provided. And the training base for reactivists was not at all from the word.

      But the main thing - the number of pieces is the same: instead of 1400 Me-262, one could release 14000 Me-109 or PV-190. But the Germans had other equally expensive serial jets.

      The only German prodigies that mattered in the context of WWII were faustpatrons (realistically) and ballistic missiles (potentially useful as a means of delivering nuclear charges).

      The Germans were generally strange people - they got involved in a total war on two fronts, and their mobresource (30-40 million people, together with Austria and part of the French, Danes and Dutch people supporting Germany) were never used to the fullest, as a result, the WWII merged to the fullest . Why did you start then?
      1. Andrey Shmelev 5 August 2019 21: 31 New
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        A colleague, why exactly 14000 thousand 109 instead of 1400 pieces 262, why not 14 fool
        1. Operator 5 August 2019 21: 33 New
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          Because we are not colleagues laughing
      2. haron 5 August 2019 22: 28 New
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        Quote: Operator
        The Germans were generally strange people - they got involved in a total war on two fronts, and their mobresource (30-40 million people, together with Austria and part of the French, Danes and Dutch people supporting Germany) were never used to the fullest, as a result, the WWII merged to the fullest . Why did you start then?

        This is a very correct question. I will say more, this is a basic question, not only of the past, but also of the future of Europe (in the form of the EEC). Or maybe Russia.
        To be honest to the end, the answer to this question is still used by those who know it, because most do not understand the answer (it sounds too conspiratorial))) But believe me, having lived with these people side by side for a decade (good, even excellent people in ordinary life) you can understand the line that separates them from turning into ..... further on Stanislavsky, only for the present.
        Every school teacher has a border when he begins to use violence, and most importantly why - everyone knows this, this is the law. But not everyone knows the border, when the teacher begins to separate the fighters, or worse, raise their hands and say it’s not me, it’s them themselves, I’m tired and go home to the fireplace with sausage and alcohol (it goes into the wall).
        Take away the fireplace, alcohol and the opportunity to return it. Adik did not think about it. And now they think.
      3. Oleg Zorin 5 August 2019 23: 01 New
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        And they had no choice. They drove themselves into a zugzwang situation, when any next move only worsens the situation.
    3. Oleg Zorin 5 August 2019 22: 59 New
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      There are several reasons. Firstly, German cars were more complicated than ours. The average pilot on the bench and Yak felt more confident, the plane forgave mistakes. Secondly, both aircraft and pilots in the USSR were put into operation more from the middle of the war. The German aces were knocked out one way or another, and the younger generation could not gain skill. Thirdly, the Soviet cars of the second half of the war no longer lost as much in the LTH as at the beginning.
    4. mvg
      mvg 6 August 2019 06: 07 New
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      Landing for 262 average pilots got shot

      On As-262 only Asa flew with a capital letter !! At least read what a thread. Galland, Nowotny, Hartman, Bar, Krupinski ..
      1. haron 6 August 2019 07: 14 New
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        Quote: mvg
        On As-262 only Asa flew with a capital letter !! At least read what a thread. Galland, Nowotny, Hartman, Bar, Krupinski ..

        Well, I’m reading you. I read four people. The Germans themselves counted about 30 more Asses on ME 262. And this is at the helm of 1400 aircraft.
        Where do the Hans have at least 1000 aces left by the end of the war? And when there were so many of them, in principle, in which country? The fact that at the helm 262 they planted the one who at least once flew to the combat in the propeller, yes it can and it was. But just 1000 aces! Sorry, but even Goebels will not make me believe here.
        1. mvg
          mvg 6 August 2019 07: 58 New
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          But just 1000 aces!

          Excuse me, but in the USSR for how many shot down they gave an asterisk? For 5 or 10? Hartman has 350+ victories, Novotny was the first to overcome 250+ ... So what about the aces? The first Me-262 squadrons were formed on the basis of Messerschmitt test pilots and Goering aces. Yes, they didn’t fight so hot as .. but it was the first swallow in the sky.
          PS: "Sorry, but even Goebels will not make me believe here." Then Kashpirovsky ..)
          1. fighter angel 6 August 2019 10: 36 New
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            Best regards.
            Do not start the old record again!
            Please do not poke Hartman-Galland-newer-Rem.
            This is, firstly, very, very controversial, and secondly, this is not an indicator.
            Units "aces" flew on the Me-262.
            And about these "aces" were discussed here a million times.
          2. Bad_gr 6 August 2019 16: 35 New
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            Quote: mvg
            Excuse me, but in the USSR for how many shot down they gave an asterisk? For 5 or 10? Hartman has 350+ victories, Novotny was the first to overcome 250+ ... So what about the aces?

            The Germans considered the number shot down not by aircraft, but by engines. For example, for a four-engine aircraft it was written as 4th. And with the confirmation of victories they had it easier.
          3. haron 6 August 2019 19: 03 New
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            Quote: mvg
            Yes, they didn’t fight so hot as .. but it was the first swallow in the sky.

            Well, what am I talking about !?
            Yes, the first swallow. And when creating additional “correct” conditions for this swallow, in the form of appropriate weapons, their tactics, pilots who became asss on it, etc. (those real conditions that theoretically could have been created until May 45th in the Reich), so this swallow theoretically could have an advantage over the Allied aircraft.
            Or simply, with the right approach, they could draw out all the advantages of this machine, which was a necessary stage / link in the formation chain of jet aircraft.
            IMHO Saying that starting this machine in a series and using it in the database, instead of doing eleven me 109 or fe 190 is a little incorrect.
            1. haron 6 August 2019 20: 44 New
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              Quote: haron
              Saying that starting this machine in a series and using it in the database, instead of doing it over 109 or fe 190 is a little incorrect.

              As an example, I will add a possible analogy in the technique assessment approach.
              Is it possible by the method of the first article to assess the T-1 \ 34 issue of 76-40? A crude unfinished machine, with a bunch of flaws both from the technical side and in the tactical aspects of the application. Flaws in mass production technologies. But over time, the T-41 \ 34 came out.
              Is it possible to say that the first T 34 \ 76 were a mistake - were g ..? Yes you can. Very reasonably possible.
              Is it possible to say that instead of 34-ki in 41-42 years it was necessary to rivet more T-27 or T-28?
              Well, in that spirit.

              IMHO. The Germans were poisoned by the spirit of 1918 when they left the country. Thus, they tried by all means to show the catastrophic nature of the Allies' attempts to "enter Berlin." For this purpose, pain 262 was less suitable, certainly better than the 109th.
        2. mvg
          mvg 6 August 2019 08: 22 New
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          // The squadron headquarters and HI / JG 7 maintained an almost constant composition of 45 Me 262 in the last weeks of the war, of which rarely more than 30 were combat-ready. Nevertheless, by the end of the war they had at least 427 victories in their account, of which about 300 were four-engined bombers! //
          Stupid question, but how many Soviet fighters had victories over such opponents? These are not "pieces" to shoot down ..
          1. fighter angel 6 August 2019 10: 47 New
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            mvg
            On the "wing-chocolate" and amphitamins sat all the Luftwaffe at the end of the war.
            And to ascribe to them from the middle of the 44th behind the scenes, it was already officially authorized.
            Therefore, such "results".
            And if you need a true picture, then divide all the figures given, at least by 3, or even by 4.
            Then compare with the Amer loss data.
            Add those and others and calculate the arithmetic mean.
            So get a more or less true picture.
            Your question about Soviet fighters is really very stupid.
            Read less marshmallows, poodles and constables with tollers ...
            1. mvg
              mvg 6 August 2019 16: 37 New
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              Read less marshmallows, poodles and constables with tollers

              I try not to read at all ... My head hurts
              1. Dooplet11 7 August 2019 07: 51 New
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                Only Asa flew on Me-262, with a capital letter !! Though read che thread.

                Я in general try not to read... My head hurts

                no words!
          2. Dooplet11 7 August 2019 07: 49 New
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            Stupid question, but how many Soviet fighters had victories over such opponents? These are not "pieces" to shoot down ..
            - True, a stupid question. At that time, the Soviet fighters did not have four-engined bombers in their opponents. At least in commercial quantities. And when they appeared in Korea, they were burning for a sweet soul.
      2. Dooplet11 6 August 2019 20: 49 New
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        Hartman flew Me-262? Where to read about it?
  • Earthshaker 5 August 2019 20: 27 New
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    Thank you, the best answer is Kaptsov.
    Wanggui articles:
    On the aerodynamics of the PzVI Tiger.
    About buoyancy mg-42.
    Why didn't the British put Aegis on the Dreadnought? Joke
    Good article, thanks for restoring historical justice.
  • mark1 5 August 2019 20: 34 New
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    Well - he nails and stigmatizes and brought down the heavenly punishment on me ... In principle, if you do not take into account the number of letters, the meaning is the same. The standards are double! request But one way or another - opinions coincide, but there is a nuance - the Yak-25/28 has a bicycle chassis.
  • Ural-4320 5 August 2019 21: 17 New
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    Fellow authors, why do you forget that the Me-262 was originally with a tail chassis? Then they came to the nose stance through the brakes on take-off to raise the tail. And a plane with a piston engine was tested initially. It is in this scenario of facts that the evolution that Roman Skomorokhov mentioned is obtained.
  • Petrol cutter 5 August 2019 21: 26 New
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    And I support the opinion of the author. The position is reasonably well-reasoned.
    There is no reason to disagree. It’s good today to mock at the height of T50 that people tried. And for those times it was a T50 for the Germans. With real, it must be said military victories. Here is my humble opinion.
  • Old26 5 August 2019 21: 40 New
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    Quote: Spade
    Plus a fuel problem. To let out a plane that by default eats it much more than piston ones was a bit silly at that time.

    As well as producing in 1915, an automatic machine that consumed much more cartridges than a three-ruler. laughing
    Do not forget that the Germans were the first in jet aircraft. The swept wings and CBS were German and were used by everyone after the war. I’m not talking about rocketry.

    By the way, Roman. In the list of aircraft similar to ME-262, Sukhoi SU-9 and SU-11 aircraft (the first with such indices) can be added, Almost 1: 1 ME-262. YES and cars of Alekseev I-211, I-212 and I-215, although their engines were not under the wing, but in the wing ....
    1. Andrey Shmelev 6 August 2019 12: 47 New
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      then arm all soldiers with berdysh, as archers:
      -beautiful in the parade
      cheaper
      -assembly-disassembly easier
      -and (most importantly!) the guard cartridge will not be lost;)
  • Oleg Zorin 5 August 2019 22: 22 New
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    Aw, alright! Well done Skomorokhov!
  • pro100y.belarus 5 August 2019 23: 06 New
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    Eternal debate since the time of the gladiators - which is better? A sword with a shield or a trident with a net?
    Everything is simple - one of the fighters lies in a pool of blood on the sand of the arena, and the stands applaud the other.
    And no ultramodern sword helped the loser.
    Conclusion - the winner’s best weapon.
    Spit on Me-262. He died with his Germany.
  • lucul 5 August 2019 23: 06 New
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    Oleg, I'm sorry, “Anenerbe” worked badly. And the MiG-29 drawings could not be delivered in the 1941 year. That's why it happened - a thick profile of a piston wing and a small sweep. In fact - a piston aircraft with suspended turbojet engines.

    And there is .
    The Germans climbed onto the next generation of aircraft without having developed scientific justification for this.
    For everyone who does not want to chew on granite aerodynamics - there is a wonderful book by Mark Solonin - "At peacefully sleeping airfields." And even if I personally do not completely agree with everything written there - but technically the book is good. In it, the author very clearly explained the concepts of aerodynamics. I recommend reading from Chapter 2 - Why planes fly.
    Available even to housewives))).
    1. Snakebyte 6 August 2019 07: 58 New
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      Quote: lucul
      I recommend reading from Chapter 2 - Why planes fly.

      This is where the author completely misinterpreted the basic principle of creating lift (the words "Bernoulli's law" in his epos simply do not exist)? Well, well, a very powerful source.
    2. mvg
      mvg 6 August 2019 08: 25 New
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      Available even to housewives))).

      I understand that you mastered?
      1. lucul 6 August 2019 09: 00 New
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        I understand that you mastered?

        And you ?
        I understand another German?
        This is where the author completely misinterpreted the basic principle of creating lift (the words "Bernoulli's law" in his epic are simply not

        Can you write about aerodynamics more competently than the author? More concise and concise?
        1. Andrey Shmelev 6 August 2019 09: 47 New
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          can write about aerodynamics more competently than the author


          lol

          Did Solonin write competently? Oh well
  • DesToeR 5 August 2019 23: 07 New
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    Quote: haron
    I’ll add about another possible “root” of defect 262. This is Adik’s idea to use it initially as a blitz scorer. They talked about him as fighters late.

    How did you talk about the fighter late? Aloizovich can spread rot for a lot, but not for the Me-262. Hitler ALWAYS asked Willy for a blitzbomb. Hitler was furious when he found out that the “Swallow” in service in the Luftwaffe is a fighter! The Führer was inadequate? I didn’t understand simple common truths, didn’t want to let the “experts” draw a couple of beams on the keels? Or simply since 1943, Adolf was well aware that Germany would not have dominance in the air of 1941. Soviet GIAPs in the east and clouds of Thunderbolts with Mustangs in the west will no longer give. Crush the mass. And to bomb Soviet tank columns on the march than necessary. It’s necessary to drown transports in the anti-tank ditch called the English Channel on D-Day. The bridges across the rivers (Reit / Sennu / Danube / Oder - underline as necessary) must be destroyed. A blitzbomber would have made it possible to carry out at least some operations even in the conditions of complete domination of the opponents of the Reich. By the way, with the Me-262 the picture was similar with the Tiger and Panther tanks, i.e. the number of aircraft shot down by them approximately corresponded to the share of "Swallows" in the total number of German fighters who took part in the battle. There was no talk of a coefficient of 2,0 or more.
  • slowpokemonkey 5 August 2019 23: 41 New
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    Bravo author, like me, like many others, paclepa's eyes cut onto a swallow.
    Thank you.
  • lucul 6 August 2019 00: 00 New
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    Requires translation into Russian. But in general, the plane was not capable of measuring the specific load on the wing. This was done by calculations in the experimental design bureau and the pilots were not accounted for. And, believe me, the pilots entered the battle, completely unaware of the load on the wing.

    Really .....))))
    “In fact - what is a“ big wing ”? How big is how much? For example, an 18,3-square-meter wing is a“ big ”or“ small ”wing? Let's calculate. The wing of this area was the three fighters that stood in service with German aviation: Fokker D-1 (World War I), Fokke-Wulf 90D (World War II), Star Fighter F-104 G (Cold War of the 60s). the take-off weight of these aircraft was 586, 4840 and 13 kg, respectively, respectively, with the “fokker” 170 kg of the aircraft weight “hung” on each meter of the wing, and the “Fokke-Vul” fa "- 32 kg, and Starfighter - 264 kg. This parameter -" unit load on the wing "- is a quantitative measure of the concept of" large or small "wing ....."

    “It’s paradoxical, but the fact that a thin-looking wing is the main source of aerodynamic drag. Accordingly, increasing the specific load (i.e., reducing the wing area) is one of the most effective ways to achieve high flight speed. To illustrate this conclusion, it’s worth mentioning one textually known Example: The S-6B Supermarine racing aircraft, which set a world speed record in 1931, was ... a float seaplane! Aerodynamic drag of two huge (fuselage-long) floats with with odd braces and braces, it did not hinder to accelerate the aircraft to a speed of 655 km / h, which was twice the speed of serial fighters of that time.There were two explanations for this miracle of technology: the phenomenal Rolls-Royce engine and the specific wing load, which was very high for that era, was 178 kg / sq.m. And in order for an airplane with such a "small" wing to take off and land successfully, the designer Reginald Mitchell (the future creator of the legendary Spitfire) chose a seaplane scheme that lands on soft water and accelerates on the runway polo ce "almost unlimited length ..."
    ))))
    1. Dooplet11 6 August 2019 04: 37 New
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      This was done by calculations in the Design Bureau and was not brought to the pilots. And, believe me, the pilots entered the battle, completely unaware of what the wing load is.
      -
      It is possible in Skomorokhov pearls. A pearl worthy of Kaptsov's pearl! The division of the mass of the aircraft by the area of ​​its wing was done only in the design bureau, the data on the mass of the aircraft and the area of ​​the wing were given in the performance specifications for a tick, and the pilots did not know the basics of aerodynamics, and did not understand how the wing load affects maneuverability. What then to bring to them?
      1. Dooplet11 9 August 2019 11: 40 New
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        In evidence that Skomorokhov slightly “blurted out the wrong thing”:



        Novel! Do not consider it an insult. This is just a statement of fact.
        1. Operator 9 August 2019 11: 52 New
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          The most interesting thing in the flight performance of the FV-190A is the maximum dive angle (90 degrees) and the minimum exit height from the peak (200 meters). Those. the fighter could well be used as a dive with a range of 500 km and a bomb load of 250 kg (at the level of Pe-2).

          In contrast to the Me-262 “blitz bomber” with a range of 250 km, blindly dropping bombs from horizontal flight at a speed of 800 km / h and with a CVT plus or minus claw laughing
          1. Dooplet11 9 August 2019 11: 57 New
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            Do not take ALL the numbers of such documents literally. Typos are possible, so cross-check. In this case, most likely, for 90 degrees and 700km \ h it is necessary to read "2000m". Or understand by the conclusion from the dive the transition to horizontal flight. But then the beginning of the output is again about 2000m
            1. Operator 9 August 2019 12: 33 New
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              To identify typos, it is useful to compare FV-190A with Pe-2:
              - the specific load on the wing is the same;
              - the maximum speed at the end of the dive is the same;
              - the thrust-weight ratio of the FV-190A is 1,8 times greater than the Pe-2, which is essential for withdrawing from a dive.

              The height of the beginning of the Pe-2 output from the dive is indicated from 800 to 900 meters depending on the dive angle - respectively 60 and 70 degrees. I did not find data about the minimum height of the Pe-2 transition to horizontal flight, but it is clearly at least 200 meters.

              In any case, the accuracy of dropping bombs in the dive of the PV-190A was at least not lower than that of the Pe-2.
              1. Dooplet11 9 August 2019 12: 43 New
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                To identify a typo, it is enough to look at the LaGG-3 RLE with the same wing profile as Foki, but with less load on the wing. for 700 km / h the output height is indicated 1800м, if not mistaken.
                As for Foki as a dive player, the Pe-2 and Yu-87 dived with released gratings, therefore, the speed at the time of the reset was far from 700. A-36 (Mustang dive) had gratings. What for? to have overload output no more than 5 later. Does Foki have gratings?
                To withdraw from a dive at 700 speed no less than the thrust-weight ratio, another moment is important - a wave crisis that significantly reduces the available overload. Pawn had a special high-speed profile that pushes the phenomena of high-speed stall.
                1. Operator 9 August 2019 13: 35 New
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                  The wooden-percale LaGG-3 should not be compared with duralumin Pe-2 and FV-190A.

                  In fact, the speed of the Pe-2 at the end of the dive, despite the presence of brake lattices, was 710 km / h, attempts to reduce the speed of the beginning of the exit from the dive by reducing the horizontal flight speed before diving did not lead to anything, so the pilots said that in Pe peak -2 "hanging on screws."

                  Therefore, the thrust-weight ratio of the FV-190, 1,8 times greater than that of the Pe-2, completely compensated for the lack of brake grilles. Plus, the 190-kg bomb suspended under the fuselage, and not in the bomb bay, like the Pe-250, gave an addition to the frontal resistance of the FV-2A. Therefore, the maximum speeds at the end of the dive for the PV-190A and Pe-2 were almost equal.

                  As for the available overload, the FV-190А single-engine fighter was clearly not lower than the Pe-2 twin-engine bomber.

                  The same applies to the cross-sectional profile of the wing - it is also special for fighters, which pushes the phenomenon of high-speed disruption of the air flow.
                  1. Dooplet11 9 August 2019 13: 54 New
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                    Wooden LaGG should not be compared with duralumin Pe-2 and FV-190A.
                    - in this aspect is worth it. The material of the power structure in this case has nothing to do with it.
                    In fact, the Pe-2 speed at the end of the dive despite the presence of brake lattices was 710 km / h, attempts to reduce the speed of the beginning of the exit from the dive by reducing the horizontal flight speed before diving did not lead to anything, so the pilots said that at the peak of Pe-2 "hung on the screws"

                    "At the dive, the grids deviated by 90 degrees. The dive speed of the Pe-2 with the released brake grids did not exceed 600 km / h." (https://military.wikireading.ru/27634)
                    Therefore, the thrust-weight ratio of the FV-190, which was 1,8 times greater than that of the Pe-2, completely compensated for the lack of brake grilles. Plus, a small addition to the frontal resistance was provided by the 250-kg bomb suspended under the fuselage, and not in the bomb bay, like the Pe-2. Therefore, the maximum speeds at the end of the dive for the PV-190A and Pe-2 were almost equal.
                    - are there proofs?
                    As for the available overload, the FV-190А single-engine fighter was clearly not lower than the Pe-2 twin-engine bomber.
                    - absolutely not explicitly. At the same speed, "ny" does not depend on the number of engines, but on the load on the wing and "Sucrit" at a given speed. So the science of aerodynamics claims.
                    The same applies to the wing cross-sectional profile - it is also special for fighters, which pushes away the phenomenon of high-speed airflow disruption.
                    - right. The Fock has a NACA-230 profile, the Pe-2 has a wing profile - TsAGI “B” in the root of the wing and “WB” at its ends. The Pe profile had the best stall performance at high speeds.
                  2. Dooplet11 9 August 2019 14: 01 New
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                    Plus, the 190-kg bomb suspended under the fuselage, and not in the bomb bay, like the Pe-250, gave an addition to the frontal resistance of the FV-2A.
                    “Perhaps I will tell you the news, but Pe-2 bombed from an external dive from a dive.” 2x500 or 4x250. And how does Foki take the bomb away from the screw when dropped? Any thoughts?
                    1. Operator 9 August 2019 14: 42 New
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                      The idea is to hang two bombs of 190 or 100 kg under the wings of the PV-250A (depending on the distance to the target).
                      1. Dooplet11 9 August 2019 14: 53 New
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                        Are there dives to limit dive speed with such a suspension on the wing? And the test data for the low-gas dive speed with such a suspension? No? Then these are languid fantasies - to dive 700km / h with such weight, and get out of the peak at 200m
                      2. Dooplet11 9 August 2019 16: 12 New
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                        The idea is to hang two bombs of 190 or 100 kg under the wings of the PV-250A (depending on the distance to the target).

                        Why didn’t this idea come to anyone in OKL? bombed, ignoramuses from the horizon? Such a dive overlooked! laughing
                      3. Operator 9 August 2019 18: 28 New
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                        LTH FV-190A of the Red Army Sun do not agree with you.
                      4. Dooplet11 9 August 2019 19: 58 New
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                        What do you disagree with?
              2. Dooplet11 9 August 2019 14: 41 New
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                As for the available overload, the FV-190А single-engine fighter was clearly not lower than the Pe-2 twin-engine bomber.
                -

                Do you see anything about the number of engines or construction material? There is a load on the wing, speed and physical capabilities of the pilot.
                1. Operator 9 August 2019 15: 53 New
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                  Available overload (with equal wing loading like the FV-190A and Pe-2) depends on the separation of masses relative to the center of aerodynamic load. The mass separation shoulder of a single-engine piston aircraft is several times less than that of a twin-engine piston.

                  In any case, the PV-190A is an initially highly maneuverable fighter for gaining superiority in the air, and the Pe-2 is an initially heavy / long-range / night fighter. The former must have more glider strength than the latter.

                  And so as not to get up twice - the advantage of the Pe-2 was the presence of a navigator on board, which determined the wind drift just before the start of the bombing; The advantage of the PV-190A as a dive was the ability to drop bombs from half the height, which compensated for the lack of a navigator.
                  It should be borne in mind that highly skilled pilots of Yu-87 Rudel-type dive-bombers could independently evaluate wind drift without the help of a navigator.
                  1. Dooplet11 9 August 2019 16: 02 New
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                    with equal wing load like FV-190A and Pe-2

                    foker 205 kg / m2, infantry 186 kg / m2 205 = 186? !!! This is news.
                    depends on the separation of masses relative to the center of application of aerodynamic force. The mass separation shoulder of a single-engine aircraft is several times less than that of a twin-engine one.
                    -And this is news. I thought that: Available overload is the overload that an aircraft can create at given values ​​of altitude and speed, available engine thrust, weight, payload, configuration (mechanization position) and other state parameters. Range of available overloads limited by overload limits. It is necessary to distinguish between maximum permissible and maximum attainable overloads.(https://studref.com/544333/tehnika/raspolagaemye_znacheniya_peregruzki)
                    In any case, the PV-190A is an initially highly maneuverable fighter for gaining superiority in the air, and the Pe-2 is an initially heavy / long-range / night fighter. The former must have more glider strength than the latter.
                    - who do you owe? In RDK-43 strength standards look. Surprise you.
                  2. Operator 9 August 2019 18: 27 New
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                    In the 205 series Pe-2, the wing load was greater than 200 kg / sq.m, but in any case, the greater thrust-weight ratio of the FV-1,8 in 190 more than compensated for the 10% difference in wing load in the Pe-2 of the previous series.

                    What does the RDK-43 have to do with it - an aircraft with greater thrust-to-weight ratio and practically equal wing loading with an analogue is fundamentally obliged to be stronger to realize its advantage.
                  3. Dooplet11 9 August 2019 19: 57 New
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                    in any case, the large thrust-weight ratio of the FV-1,8A in 190 more than compensated for 10%
                    - start with the fact that at 600 + speed the available thrust is unlikely to differ by 1,8 times. And let's end with where we started. Foca without brake grids could not become a dive bomber.
                    PS. Take a look at all RDK-43. And tell me which safety margins are taken for a fighter and which ones for a dive.
                    And you were silent about your definition of disposable overload. Where did you find him?
                  4. Dooplet11 9 August 2019 21: 04 New
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                    but in any case, the greater thrust-weight ratio of the FV-1,8

                    At a speed of 600 km / h and an altitude of 1000m, the available Foki power is much less than the required power (however, the Pe-2 also has the same body weight):

                    Hence the conclusion - at the height of the output 1000m and speed 600 + greater thrust-weight ratio fock is not observed. Both aircraft have 0. All they have is kinetic energy. Which plane does it have more, tell me, or will you guess?
  • Andrey Shmelev 6 August 2019 09: 35 New
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    Colleague!

    1. For Kaptsov, I have outlined several simple questions on aerodynamics.

    2. The march to school, judging by the posts, you have not yet mastered the middle school program.
    1. lucul 6 August 2019 12: 25 New
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      Judging by the posts, the march to school has not yet been mastered by a middle school program.

      ))))
      Something I did not see reasoned answers, some questions))
  • 911sx 6 August 2019 00: 04 New
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    So what was the Me 262? According to the results of combat use (the aircraft was mastered in just a few months), it’s probably a superweapon. Although the Germans could in 1943 put on the wing and He and Junkers, much weaker planes. It turns out that it was Willy and Co. who managed to do what could fly and shoot down, but the war was coming to an end, the Germans did an EVERYTHING in short supply. In the late 70s, I read the book "Stormphogel without a swastika." the appearance of this particular machine. Our intelligence worked very closely to prevent the production of enemy jet aircraft, and much intelligence was possible. But nevertheless, you must agree to build a car with turbojet engines, at a time when they tried to make a turbocharger wheel of a piston engine from wood .... This car flew, and flew well, there would be enough nickel and other necessary elements in the critical components of the engine, I am sure the traction Jumo would be much higher, as well as the characteristics of the aircraft itself. I never had warm feelings for the Germans (probably this is a response), but the engineering school and their order in everything cause deep respect.
  • Aqela 6 August 2019 00: 24 New
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    It touches the reluctance of the author to simply count in the volume of arithmetic.
    In what way ... That is, comrade Yakovlev perediral Martian spaceship? And the Yak-25 and Yak-28 did not meet these requirements? Strange, but more similarities than necessary. And the tricycle chassis with the front desk, and the engines under the wings ...

    Both the Yak-25 (= Yak-120) and the Yak-28 did not have a three-post chassis layout, but a bicycle, i.e. nose stance, main stance + 2 wing stances, i.e. four-post chassis. request
    This is clearly visible even in the photographs given.
    In addition, at the Schwalbe, the sweep of the wings was associated not with aerodynamic targets, but with a misalignment, which was eliminated by moving the nacelles back. Hence the thick wing profile.
    http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/me262a.html
    As for the swept wing shape in plan, its choice was rather associated with the desire to provide the necessary range of alignments and, as a result, the required margin of longitudinal stability of the fighter. It should be noted that the angle of sweep of the bearing surface of 15 degrees along the leading edge did not allow a significant increase in the critical number M (for this it was necessary to increase the sweep at least twice).

    In addition, the mass of other post-war fighter jets had a straight wing with a relatively thick (subsonic) profile. Let me briefly list only fighters with such a wing:

    F-83 Developer: Bell. First flight: 1945. Type: Multirole fighter
    F-84A (D) Thunderjet. Developer: Republic. First flight: 1946.
    F-84E Thunderjet. Developer: Republic. First flight: 1949. Type: Fighter-bomber
    F-80A Shooting Star. Developer: Lockheed. First flight: 1944. Type: Fighter-bomber
    F-87 Blackhawk. Developer: Curtiss. First flight: 1948. Type: Multipurpose night fighter
    F-89 Scorpion. Developer: Northrop. First flight: 1948. Type: Interceptor fighter
    F-94 Starfire. Developer: Lockheed. First flight: 1949. Type: Interceptor fighter
    FJ-1 Fury. Developer: North American. First flight: 1946. Type: Multirole fighter
    FH-1 Phantom. Developer: McDonnell. First flight: 1945. Type: Deck fighter-bomber
    F2H Banshee. Developer: McDonnell. First flight: 1947. Type: Deck fighter
    F9F Panther. Developer: Grumman. First flight: 1947. Type: Deck fighter
    F6U Pirate. Developer: Chance Vought. First flight: 1946. Type: Deck fighter
    F-10 (F3D) Skyknight. Developer: Douglas. First flight: 1948. Type: Deck fighter
    Vampire F.Mk. 1 (4). Developer: de Havilland. First flight: 1943. Type: Multirole fighter
    Vampire NF.Mk. 10. Developer: de Havilland. First flight: 1951. Type: Night fighter
    Meteor FI Developer: Gloster. First flight: 1943. Type: Interceptor fighter
    Meteor F.III. Developer: Gloster. First flight: 1944. Type: Interceptor fighter
    Meteor F.4. Developer: Gloster. First flight: 1945. Type: Interceptor fighter
    Meteor F.8. Developer: Gloster. First flight: 1948. Type: Interceptor fighter
    Meteor NF. 11. Developer: Gloster, Armstrong Whitworth. First flight: 1949. Type: Night fighter
    Meteor NF. 12. Developer: Gloster, Armstrong Whitworth. First flight: 1953. Type: Night fighter
    Sea Hawk F.1 (2). Developer: Hawker. First flight: 1947. Type: Multirole fighter
    Yak-15. Developer: Yakovlev Design Bureau. First flight: 1946. Type: Multirole fighter
    Yak-17. Developer: Yakovlev Design Bureau. First flight: 1947. Type: Multirole fighter
    Yak-19. Developer: Yakovlev Design Bureau. First flight: 1947. Type: Multirole fighter
    Yak-23. Developer: Yakovlev Design Bureau. First flight: 1947. Type: Multirole fighter
    Su-9 (First). Developer: OKB Sukhoi. First flight: 1946. Type: Fighter-bomber (Incidentally, very similar to the Me-262)


    No, it is clear that the Germans began the development of the Me-262 back in the late 30s, but the tests dragged on, as you know.

    The “V4” aircraft was replaced by the Me.262V5 with a nose wheel, however, a fixed gear, which for the first time overcame gravity on June 6, 1943, becoming the prototype of the first production vehicle Me.262A.
    .
    The flight tests of the seventh prototype began on December 20, 1943.
    After it, Me.262V8 (factory No. 130 003) took off, first equipped with standard weapons - four MK-108 30 mm caliber cannons with 360 rounds of ammunition and a 16V Revi sight, and Me.262V9, designed to test the radio and navigation equipment.
    .
    Following them, in early 1944, the German aviation industry produced 30 pre-production fighter aircraft under the designation Me.262A-0, intended for trial operation.


    By the way, the British "Meteors" began to arrive in the unit at about the same time.

    FI was considered a transitional model to F.III, which they were going to build in massive quantities. Therefore, FI "Meteors" were ordered only 20. Nevertheless, it was this machine that first hit the combat unit of the Royal Air Force. On July 12, 1944, one such aircraft was delivered to Kalmhead air base, where the 616th squadron was stationed. The 616th had experienced personnel and fought since 1940, flying on Spitfires of various brands. In 1943-44, her pilots performed a special task - German high-altitude reconnaissance aircraft Ju-86 intercepted over England.


    Somehow it comes out. request hi
  • Aqela 6 August 2019 00: 42 New
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    And you, Oleg, are absolutely right! We were never able to build either rocket or turbojet engines in 1944. And in 1947, when British and German fell into the hands, yes, easily.


    In response to such poisonous philippics, I will quote:

    Arkhip Mikhailovich Lulka (Ukrainian. Arkhip Mikhailovich Lulka; 1908-1984) - Soviet scientist, designer, specialist in the field of aircraft engines. Academician of the Academy of Sciences of the USSR (1968), head of the Design Bureau "Saturn". Hero of Socialist Labor (1957). Laureate of the Lenin and two Stalin Prizes.
    .
    In 1933-1939 he was a teacher at the KhAI, working on a turbojet engine project with a centrifugal compressor.
    In 1939-1941 he developed a structural scheme of a turbofan engine (dual-turbojet engine), which was the prototype of the existing schemes, designed a prototype turbofan engine with an axial compressor.
    In 1941-1942 he worked at a tank factory in Chelyabinsk, and from 1943 he continued work on the creation of the first domestic turbojet engine.
    Together with the chief of OKB-301, M. I. Gudkov, in March 1943, they proposed to the USSR leadership a draft of a new attack aircraft with a WFD (GU) - Gu-WRD. However, domestic experts were not ready to accept this proposal, despite the conviction of the developers in the reality of the implementation of this project.
    Since 1946, he is the chief designer of the pilot plant. Under the leadership of Lyulka, the first Soviet turbojet engine was created, which passed state tests in February 1947. In the following years, under the direction of Lyulka, a number of turbojet engines were created, which were used on the planes of P.O. Sukhoi, S.V. Ilyushin, G.M.Beriev, A.N. Tupolev.

    http://www.airwar.ru/history/constr/russia/constr/lulka.html
  • Nikolaevich I 6 August 2019 03: 24 New
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    By the way, the statistics are in favor of “Swallows”. 150 downed aircraft versus 100 lost aircraft is not bad. For the new class of aircraft - quite. Moreover, of the hundreds of lost, most are lost on the ground. From the actions of poorly trained technicians, and from the pilots got. Not all were galllands.

    Unpatriotic, but what losses did the Soviet BI-1 have to the enemy? British "Gloucester Meteor"? American P-59 "Aircomet"?

    None Except for the lives of test pilots - no. In contrast to the useless German Me-262.

    ABOUT ! What a pathetic! But the Author’s memory is selective ... like one character (!) ... "I remember here. But I don’t remember"! What does the "Soviet BI-1" have to do with it, if they have not entered service? And, if BI-1 is compared with "something", then with "Comet"! But how much did the Me-163 get done? 9 downed planes versus 11 lost ... (according to other sources, the “results” are somewhat different, but “close” ...)! In the USSR, if they wanted, they could bring BI-1 to the "series", but there wasn’t much desire ... just like the need! But the Germans, in 1944 and especially in 1945, had to turn in all directions (!) ... (but how can you not spin with your bare ass on a hot stove?)! So I had to throw the "unfinished" plane into battle! And to lose the lives of “test pilots” not only in battle! From "need" these downed and lost planes! At the same time, the situation was calmer among the allies ... there was not much need to "tear the anus"! The American P-59 flew to 1942 g .... An order for a small batch for "testing purposes" was soon received! It was a trial operation in order to identify the "pluses" and "minuses" and their "number"! And blaming P-59 for not fighting? Well, well ... And here is Gloucester "Meteor", "somehow", but he fought! Well, he didn’t manage to wave with Me-262 ... (!) ... the British did not see the great need for this! But the Meteor was "spotted" in attacks on the FAU-1! Well, the attack on ground targets ... Well, what about the "fate" of Meteor and Me-262? Me-262 ...: "the old woman did not rock for a long time"! The war ended and it turned out to "Swallow" no one needs! Not. Of course, there was some "interest due to curiosity" ... but the "designer-engineer" of different countries rushed around with the plane and .... as they say, "they marred and abandoned"! No one wanted to bring the eroplan to its "logical conclusion"! "Meteor" was in service with not only England, but also other countries for many years, and managed to fight!
    Regarding weapons: Compare MK-108 (30 mm) and SAWM (20 mm) ...? What is it for? The Germans had not only MK-101 / 103 / 108, but also MK-151 / 20 ... In the USSR, not only SHVAK, but VYA (23 mm), NS-23 (23 mm), NS-37 (37 mm) ... That is, "both comfort and others" were "stronger", there was "weaker"! And as for “Minengeschoss '' ... this is not due to the outstanding ballistic properties of weapons or ammunition; but as a result of the use of more advanced technology: the“ seamless ”(not in Chinese!) Technology turned out to be more efficient than turning! Thus, ammunition can be improved other systems ...
  • Molot1979 6 August 2019 06: 42 New
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    The author is right. Scumbling German technology, we, firstly, spit in the memory of great-grandfathers. What for, four years fiddling with these crooked Germans .... Secondly, we give an excellent occasion to various whistleblowers. I still remember the end of the 80s - the mid 90s, when it was on such lies and omissions that the foundations of the country were shaken, no matter how pathetic it sounds. And therefore the truth is better, even if we pinch the tail to individual patriots.
    In this case, we should not talk about the curvature of Messerschmitt and his team. It is clear that it was unrealistic to shoot down the Su-1944 in 45-57. Even the MiG-15 is unrealistic. Jet aircraft was just beginning, and as the author correctly noted, I had to go blindly. But does this mean that the Germans were right? I don’t think so. Jet aircraft absorbed a lot of time and valuable resources from a country that was already on the verge of defeat and also suffered from resource hunger. It seems more reasonable not to be carried away by new uncharted paths, but to maximize concentration on the production and improvement of designs already mastered by factories and troops. Cheaper and faster production. This is a more winning strategy. Because, hand on heart, 150 enemy shot down for 100 of their lost - this is never a good ratio. After all, the enemy loses just perfectly mastered equipment, and these losses will be reimbursed in two weeks. But a hundred of the latest reactive ones are, de facto, a non-renewable resource. Instead of this hundred, three hundred Focke-Wulfs could have been built, which would have dropped one and a half hundred Anglo-Saxons in the same way. And even with the loss of one hundred of their own, there would still be two hundred more cars that any pilots could fly, and not just a couple of squadrons of geeks, assembled individually by piece throughout the Reich.
    1. dgonni 6 August 2019 09: 16 New
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      Focke-Wulf Ta 183 no? Almost instantly 15th! And the Germans planned to produce it in series from October 1945! And if you look at the saber and migraine, you somehow understand that the states and the union were lucky with the documentation and the worked out aerodynamic design!
  • pafegosoff 6 August 2019 07: 11 New
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    But really, looking at the jet messerschmidt, you remember my beloved IL-28. Of course, a different class, but the genius of Wilhelm Messerschidt laid the foundation for the cosponization of jet aircraft, which thrives today
    1. Potter 6 August 2019 07: 55 New
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      Looking at the Me-262, recalling the IL-28, you can only without knowing the history of the creation of the IL-28. And it began in 1945 with the design and construction of IL-22, with 4 TR-1 turbojet engines of the Lyulka design. The aircraft was built in 1947, while it had a direct wing with aerodynamic profiles TsAGI, the engines were located under the wing on small pylons (the first constructive solution of this kind). During testing, the TR-1 engines did not reach the thrust, respectively, the design speed was not achieved, the specific fuel consumption was greater (recall, this is the first domestic turbojet engine on which Lyulka began working on in 1938).
      In 1947, licenses were purchased for Nin engines with a thrust of 2200 kgs, and taking into account the experience of testing the IL-22, Ilyushin began work on the IL-28.
      But before that there were intermediate studies of the IL-24 aircraft under 2 Mikulin AM-TKRD-01 engines with a thrust of 3300kgs. These engines were not received by Ilyushin Design Bureau (transferred to Alekseyev Design Bureau).
      IL-24 for Nin engines (RD-45) at the beginning, like IL-22, was designed with 4 engines, according to the IL-22 scheme. But at the same time it was heavy up to 28 tons and ceased to be a front-line bomber.
      And then Ilyushin made a radical decision, here the experience of testing the IL-22 already helped - reduce the size of the aircraft, leave 2 Nin engines, reduce the crew to 3 people with 5, pull the RD-45 engines with a large midship under the wing. And so the IL-28 circuit appeared. He also has wing profiles of TsAGI, but already high-speed RS-5s of Serebriysky and Ryzhkova. This profile ensured the achievement of M = 0,82, that is, a speed of 900 km / h, which was achieved.
      Summary - Ilyushin’s design bureau has come a long way to IL-28, having created one flying prototype and several “paper” studies for 3 years, which had to be abandoned. This is TsAGI’s work to create and test new aerodynamic profiles for new high speeds. This is the work of dvigatelists who make up for lost time in the war.
      And then everything is simple - I saw a 5-ton Messerschmitt, I copied it - but I got a 20-ton IL-28.
      I’m not going to refute the influence of captured German technology on our industry - of course, much has been learned from it, using the labor of German engineers. Like disproving the influence of Lend-Lease, it would also be foolish. But without the work of their engineers, a post-war breakthrough in aviation, industry and technology in general would not have been possible.
      1. pafegosoff 6 August 2019 07: 58 New
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        Do not know Ilyushin about the Me-262 ...
        Since which year did the jet Me-262 begin?
        And jet engines for him? What did Lulka come up with?
        And therefore, on the same MiG-15 put Rolls-Royce (licensed) engines, and not Mikulinsky, Klimovsky or Cradle?
        What happened before? Egg or chicken?
        1. Potter 6 August 2019 08: 05 New
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          I wrote a lengthy message with a brief history of IL-28. Read it, there about engines, and much more.
          1. pafegosoff 6 August 2019 08: 20 New
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            To show you a photo from 1974, where I am in the cockpit of the IL-28? Or where do we hang a ton bomb on an IL-28? By the way, the IL-28 cockpit is much more convenient for the navigator than the Tu-16. The sight, however, is far from American ...
            1. dgonni 6 August 2019 09: 11 New
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              Taking off my hat! 65 already?
  • Grossvater 6 August 2019 07: 19 New
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    There is another piquant nuance. The shape of the fuselage 262nd. The triangular, lower plane creates additional lifting force, the joints of the inclined sides reduce the interference resistance. By the way, the SR-71 may well be added to the list of twin-engine jets.
    Another thing is that the decision itself to switch to axial compressors was, let's say, dubious. Having paved the way for a bright future for all of humanity, the Germans, abandoning the development of centrifugal compressors, lost the opportunity to have a year like that by the 43rd year, not like the French Hurricane.
    It is clear that there is a prospect, there are no questions, but after all, both the MiG 15 and the Il 28 flew in centrifuges.
    However, it is in German tradition to do everything right, too.
    1. Bad_gr 6 August 2019 17: 04 New
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      Quote: Grossvater
      ....... but after all they flew in centrifuges and MiG 15 and IL 28.

      In jet aircraft, centrifugal compressors most likely flew their own, but on helicopters, turboprop aircraft (and the t-80 engine) - sunset is not expected.
  • gregor6549 6 August 2019 08: 03 New
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    The article is definitely a big plus for clear argumentation, for knowledge of the subject of discussion, and for soft, but impressive sarcasm.
    I completely agree with the fact that the “hellish” mixture of hurray of patriotism with a lack of knowledge and experience among many “couch experts” often clings to common sense, which leads to a dangerous underestimation of the potential opponents.
    It was already and it was necessary to correct it “it was” a lot of blood, including the lives and health of many members of my family.
    Of course, you can, as before, hope that Russian industry will provide us with fur hats in an amount sufficient to throw any probable and even incredible adversary, But hopes are mainly fueled by the lords, and we, alas, have not been lighters for a long time.
    And a few words about the "stupidity" of a potential adversary, especially the United States. It’s one thing when the respected satirist Zadornov spoke about this “stupidity”, and it’s quite another when they talk about this stupidity endlessly here. Yes, the Americans are not like us, but among them there are many very smart guys who have created and continue to create magnificent examples of a wide variety of equipment, including military. Unfortunately, they are often ruled by not very smart and honest people, but this is not only a misfortune for Americans.
    And here the main thing is to be able to find a reasonable compromise and not roll barrels at each other and not bring the matter to "Bing Bang" ie before the big bang. If this happens, then there will be no one to understand who was smarter there, and who is dumber.
    Indeed, the very Brezhnev and his team (Gromyko, Kosygin, Suslov, etc.), despite their party principles and unwillingness to compromise on the principles, knew how to somehow compromise even with the most stubborn foreign presidents and thereby significantly reduce the likelihood of the emergence of the 3 World. What is stopping now?
    1. shinobi 6 August 2019 10: 09 New
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      The fact is that there is a problem with the political sanity of US politicians. The old guards such as Brzezinski and McCain, who knew exactly what war was, knew how to share the propaganda chatter with the real situation. a big puddle. They sacredly believe in Hollywood, exaggerate, and his tales about the not "victorious" US army. And until their "great" army snatches off again, and so it’s impossible to hide, nothing will change. I don’t understand how their warriors real , still manages to restrain these hollowers from the last adventure for themselves and the world as a whole.
  • Taoist 6 August 2019 08: 44 New
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    Well, it’s not even sporty to challenge Kaptsov ... ;-) Especially since the boy got his one and all, hype caught ...
  • dgonni 6 August 2019 08: 57 New
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    Respect hats off! ;)
  • Wildcat 6 August 2019 09: 14 New
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    wink Good article!
    However, the authors in this and in the previous article have missed a lot. Why dwell on criticism and comparison of MK108 with other small things? In Germany there were excellent guns from 150 to 380 mm!
    There was no technical problem to install such on Heinkel Zwilling, Hindenburg-like airship or Messerschmidt the Giant, at least in the installation of a shragemusic! The air defense problem, and if you guess to fly head down, then the CAS is solved! Rudel coped starting from 37 mm, from 150 - they would have stopped D DAY!
    No one used excellent armor, although they could make plates over 300 mm! Where is the adequate protection, armored belt ?!
    Yumo004 is clearly weak, why didn’t they use beautiful, strong and fireproof diesels? Even in the USSR they did it!
    Thank you for attention!
    hi drinks wassat fellow
    1. Alexey RA 6 August 2019 11: 07 New
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      Quote: Wildcat
      Why dwell on criticism and comparison of MK108 with other small things? In Germany there were excellent guns from 150 to 380 mm!

      Bggg ... I immediately remembered an alternative K-7 Kalinin with towers. laughing
      1. Wildcat 6 August 2019 15: 30 New
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        No towers, just a shragemusic! And instead of ridiculous chassis - skis or caterpillars, so as not to depend on 1.5 km of concrete (or short concrete with a springboard for take-off and a corner strip with cables for landing)! Or landing on the belly on an elastic surface, as the British tried.
        Everything is solved, only ship towers are not needed!
        hi laughing
        1. Alexey RA 6 August 2019 19: 16 New
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          Quote: Wildcat
          And instead of ridiculous chassis - skis or caterpillars, so as not to depend on 1.5 km of concrete (or short concrete with a springboard for takeoff and a corner strip with cables for landing)! Or landing on the belly on an elastic surface, as the British tried.

          No-no-no ... why these alternative half measures? The Germans in real life had their own, even more twilight system (planned for installation on their AB) - a catapult that accelerates the launch carriage on which the plane stands. After takeoff, the carriage remains on the ground (possibly even in its entirety) and is transported back to the starting position for the installation of the next aircraft. BAO and BATO standing ovation! laughing
          Quote: Wildcat
          Everything is solved, only ship towers are not needed!

          What about adequate protection? wink
          Quote: Wildcat
          No one used excellent armor, although they could make plates over 300 mm! Where is the adequate protection, armored belt ?!
          1. Wildcat 7 August 2019 00: 53 New
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            hi
            From the comments it is clear that it is impossible to complicate the technique, so there will be no towers. No shragemusic. Starting trolley and ski landing. There will be one trunk, in the breech section - 2 thrommel stores. laughing
            The project "death of the gods from the mothers of kuzma" - in one word, in German. Small wings - laminar - in the center along with armored fuel tanks - raspberry schnapps, underberg, jägermeister and starting fuel about 96 degrees!
            wassat drinks
  • Andrey Zhdanov-Nedilko 6 August 2019 09: 17 New
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    Thanks, interesting, excellent article!
  • shinobi 6 August 2019 09: 53 New
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    I especially liked about the wing profile and sweep. I’m throwing a stone from myself. Absolutely all aircraft powers faced this problem when they came close to supersonic sound. And if it’s a plus at high speeds, then in anger and landing it’s a big minus. Fatty one. Especially with sweep which directly influenced the length of the runway. It was not just that in the late 60s dances began with variable wing geometry. And if the fighters still somehow fixed everything in a deltoid form, then the bombers are still there. Either the angle and the sound are variable in sharpness, or the class ika all in all not perederali with large angles and turtle skorosti.Posle war including the German experience, and the Germans all trial and error did.
  • voyaka uh 6 August 2019 10: 15 New
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    At the end of the war, the Germans' stakes on the jet were correct.
    1) Ordinary Me-109s could not intercept the strategic bombers of the Americans.
    2) For mass aircraft, mass training of pilots was needed.
    But the Nazis exhausted their human reserves by the end of 43 years.
    Neither pilots (nor tank crews) could be massively cooked.
  • Pavel57 6 August 2019 10: 15 New
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    1: 1, both articles are emotional and contain inaccuracies.
  • DimerVladimer 6 August 2019 12: 56 New
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    The sweep of the wing is not an indicator of the success and "modernity" of a jet aircraft.
    Take Canberra or its licensed US version - Martin B-57 Canberra
    with speeds of 960 km / h and a ceiling of 18000-21000 km.

    In August 1953 from the airfield Gibelstadt (Germany) on the route: Germany - Czechoslovakia-
    cue - Kiev - Kharkov - Kapustin Yar - Iran launched the Canberra. On the way
    The plane was repeatedly attacked by Soviet fighters and fired at anti-aircraft
    artillery. From anti-aircraft fire in the Kapustin zone, Yara “Canberra” experienced such
    vibration that the pictures turned out to be extremely poor quality. Getting a lot
    holes and dents, the plane still reached Iran, where it landed. Command
    USSR air defense at that time considered the Canberra a very difficult target for the Soviet
    interceptor fighters. The pilots flying to intercept the task
    bring down the Canberra at all costs, right down to the ram.

    So that's the hard goal.

    The first flights of the Ag-234 twin-engine bomber in the summer of 1943 became the main reason that prompted North American specialists to begin developing a similar-purpose aircraft, later called the B-45 Tornado (33 were launched as a strategic reconnaissance RB-45C-1). The plane had a direct wing.


    In 1950, it was decided to use the RB-45C-1 in reconnaissance flights over the territory of the USSR to compile radar maps of industrial areas and important military installations. In order to avoid international scandal, it was agreed to use not American but British crews for such flights - in case they were captured could claim that they were lost, - as the planes removed the US Air Force identification marks and applied the Great Britain signs Flying over East Germany, the Baltic states, the Moscow region, the south of Russia and Ukraine began in April e 1952.

    On April 17–18, 1952, three RB-45 piloted by British and American pilots, starting from England, invaded the airspace of the USSR and traveled along three routes: through the Baltic states, Belarus, and Ukraine. The flights took place at an altitude of 12 thousand meters, to the turn of Pskov, Smolensk, Kharkov {375}. Soviet radars fought these planes, but fighters and anti-aircraft artillery could not bring them down.

    That is, nothing that the direct-wing scouts turned out to be faster and had a larger ceiling than the MiG-15 MiG-17 fighters
  • Pavel57 6 August 2019 13: 35 New
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    He-262 can be added to the list of aircraft similar to Me-280.)))
  • Proctologist 6 August 2019 13: 47 New
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    Quote: Operator
    After the USSR, fighting alone, by December 1941 thwarted the German plan for a lightning war


    This is a common misconception. USSR did not fight with Germany not a single day "by oneself". The only country that for some time alone fought against the Nazis is Britain. From 22.06.1941/8.05.1945/XNUMX to XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX the war went on two fronts, and before the allies landed in Normandy there was a rather fierce battle for Italy, not to mention North Africa.
    1. Bad_gr 6 August 2019 17: 15 New
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      Quote: Proctologist
      The only country that for some time alone fought against the Nazis is Britain.

      That is, the whole German army was focused on the English direction and was occupied only by the British?
    2. Usher 6 August 2019 18: 19 New
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      Quote: Proctologist
      Quote: Operator
      After the USSR, fighting alone, by December 1941 thwarted the German plan for a lightning war


      This is a common misconception. USSR did not fight with Germany not a single day "by oneself". The only country that for some time alone fought against the Nazis is Britain. From 22.06.1941/8.05.1945/XNUMX to XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX the war went on two fronts, and before the allies landed in Normandy there was a rather fierce battle for Italy, not to mention North Africa.

      Very fought? What do you mean by battle? Dunkirk or unhurried battles in North Africa, or when 3 planes fought against three planes for six months over Sicily? It seems even over Murmansk it was hotter.
      1. Proctologist 6 August 2019 22: 50 New
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        The correct answer will be given by the numbers: the number of divisions on the Western Front, including Africa. Desert Fox Rommel, who did not fight in the USSR. War at sea, converted to the need to build submarines, not tanks. Taken from the Stalingrad direction tanks, including.

        Both grandfathers fought, I worship their feat, but the family survived, including thanks to the stew and jam on Lend-Lease, well, and our potato peelings, from which my grandmother baked pancakes.

        I am for the truth.
  • Pavel57 6 August 2019 14: 31 New
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    You can recall up to the heap of another aircraft, created in a hurry of wartime, but did not really have time for the war - Lockheed P-80. True, it was created for the English engine, the United States did not yet have its own. And surprisingly the plane turned out.