Anti-aircraft missile systems of Soviet and Russian origin as the main threat to American combat aviation

238
In a recent post "Features of combat training of pilots of the Air Force and the US Navy." Who are American pilots preparing to fight with? ” one of the readers, in the spirit of humorist Mikhail Zadornov, lamented the dullness of the Americans who use fighter with red stars painted in colors uncharacteristic of the US Air Force and Navy in the Aggressors squadrons. A question was also asked when was the last time in a close air combat from aviation the enemy’s plane was shot down by the cannon and stated: “Pilots shoot missiles at each other from a distance of tens, if not hundreds of kilometers,” and therefore the visualization of aircraft designating an enemy air train is not needed. However, few readers can name the last case of a successful combat use of an anti-aircraft missile against a manned American combat aircraft. Nevertheless, “dumb Americans” consider ground-based air defense systems to be no less a threat than enemy fighters.

Anti-aircraft missile systems of Soviet and Russian origin as the main threat to American combat aviation

B-750B anti-aircraft missile from the CA-75М air defense missile system on the CM-90 launcher at the Hanoi Aviation Museum




The study of Soviet air defense systems in 1970-1980-s


As you know, the first victims of the Soviet CA-75 Dvina anti-aircraft missile system were high-altitude reconnaissance aircraft of the American production RB-57 and U-2, which flew over the territory of the People's Republic of China, the USSR and Cuba. Although this air defense system was originally primarily intended to counter high-altitude reconnaissance and strategic bombers, it showed itself well in the course of hostilities in Southeast Asia and the Middle East. Americans contemptuously called the B-750В missiles flying "telegraph poles", but at the same time they had to spend considerable forces and means to counter air defense missile systems: develop evasion tactics, allocate strike suppression groups and equip their planes with active jamming stations.

Of course, the anti-aircraft complexes of the C-75 family were not devoid of a number of significant drawbacks. Mobility and time of deployment-coagulation left much to be desired, which inevitably affected vulnerability. Many problems created the need for refueling missiles with liquid fuel and oxidant. The complex was single-channel in purpose and often successfully suppressed by organized interference. Nevertheless, the C-75 air defense missile systems of various modifications, exported to the end of 1980-s, during local conflicts, managed to have a significant impact on the course of hostilities, becoming the most belligerent anti-aircraft missile systems and one of the main threats to American aircraft.



Despite the considerable age, the C-75 air defense system still carries combat duty in Vietnam, Egypt, Cuba, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, North Korea, Romania, Syria. The Chinese version of the HQ-2 is in service with the People's Republic of China and Iran. Given that some of these countries are considered by the United States as potential rivals, the American command has to reckon with the presence of even outdated, but still having a certain combat potential complexes.

Since the first clash with the Soviet air defense system, American intelligence has offered great efforts to get to know them in detail, which would make it possible to develop countermeasures. For the first time, American specialists were able to get acquainted in detail with the elements of C-75 captured by Israelis in Egypt at the beginning of the 1970's. In the course of the “War of attrition”, Israeli special forces conducted a successful operation to capture the P-12 radar, which is used as a radar reconnaissance station of an anti-aircraft missile division. The radar was removed from the position on the external load of the CH-53 helicopter. Having gained access to the elements of the air defense system and the radar, Israeli and American experts were able to develop recommendations on countermeasures and received the most valuable material for conducting EW against Soviet air defense systems. But even before that, at air test sites in the United States, mock-ups of anti-aircraft complexes appeared, on which American pilots learned to fight them.


Satellite image of Google Earth: Layout of the position of the C-75 air defense system in the vicinity of Cannon air base, New Mexico


The most effective methods turned out to be: a breakthrough to the position of the air defense missile system at a low altitude, below the boundaries of defeat of the Zour and diving followed by bombing in the “dead funnel”. Although even the latest C-75 modifications are outdated, there are still quite a few target positions on the American test sites that are regularly hit by air strikes during the exercises.

After the conclusion of a peace treaty between Egypt and Israel in 1979, Western intelligence had the opportunity to familiarize themselves in detail with the latest models of Soviet equipment and weapons. As is known, the Soviet leadership, fearing that modern air defense systems would enter China, refrained from supplying the newest models of air defense systems to Vietnam. On the contrary, our "Arab friends" fighting the "Israeli military" got the most modern at that time. weapon. The equipment delivered to Egypt differed from the one that was on combat duty in the USSR Air Defense forces in the middle of the 1970-s only by the system of state recognition and the simplified execution of some elements. Acquaintance of American experts even with export models caused a huge damage to the defense capability of the Soviet air defense forces. After the cessation of the Soviet-Egyptian military-technical cooperation in Egypt, in addition to the CA-75М, which were well-known to Americans in Vietnam, there were also medium-range air defense systems C-75М with B-755 missile systems, low-altitude C-125 with B-601P missiles, military squares "Kvadrat", ASUK-1МE, radars: П-12, П-14, П-15, П-35. It is clear that the copying of Soviet-made equipment and armaments was not discussed, the Americans were primarily interested in the characteristics of the detection range and radar immunity, the operating stations of the guidance stations, the sensitivity and operating frequencies of radiodetectors of missiles, the size of dead zones of the air defense missile system and the ability to fight airborne targets at small heights. The study of the characteristics of the Soviet air defense system and radar was carried out by specialists from the laboratory of the US Department of Defense of the Redstone Arsenal in Huntsville (Alabama), on the basis of which recommendations were made to develop methods, techniques and means of counteraction.

Taking into account the fact that in Cairo and Alexandria, enterprises were built for the repair and maintenance of radio equipment and elements of anti-aircraft systems, secret intelligence documentation with a detailed description of Soviet-made air defense systems and modes of operation was at the disposal of Western intelligence services. However, the Egyptians sold Soviet military secrets to everyone. So the Chinese got at their disposal the C-75M Volga and B-755 missiles, thanks to which the HQ-2J ADMS appeared in the PRC. After studying the MiG-23 fighter, the Chinese designers, due to the high complexity of the task, decided to abandon the construction of a fighter with a variable geometry wing. And on the basis of several operational-tactical complexes 9K72 "Elbrus" transferred by Egypt and a package of technical documentation in North Korea, production of its own analogues of the Soviet PRP P-17 was launched.


Self-propelled installation of intelligence and guidance 1С91 from the Kvadrat air defense system in the parking lot in the vicinity of the Yuma, Arizona airbase


At the end of the 1980-x, Western intelligence services had a number of Soviet-made equipment and armaments captured in Chad. Among the trophies of the French contingent was fully operational SAM Kvadrat, which was more modern than those that were in Egypt.

The study of Soviet air defense systems in 1990-ies


At the end of 1991, in the state of New Mexico, a Osa-AK self-propelled short-range air defense system was tested at the White Sands test site. The country, from where it was delivered to the USA, is still undisclosed. But based on the test date, it can be assumed that this mobile short-range air defense complex was captured by US troops in Iraq.



Immediately after the liquidation of the Berlin Wall and the unification of Germany, the anti-aircraft missile systems used by the army of the GDR became the object of close attention of Western experts. In the second half of 1992, two German air defense systems Osa-AKM were delivered to the Eglin airbase by heavy military transport aircraft C-5В. Together with the mobile complexes arrived German calculations. According to the published information, field tests with real launches on air targets in Florida lasted more than two months, and during the shooting several radio-controlled air targets were shot down.

After the liquidation of the Warsaw Pact and the collapse of the Soviet Union, the United States had air defense systems that Americans could not even dream of before. For some time, Western experts were at a loss, not knowing where to begin the study of the wealth that had fallen on their heads. At the beginning of the 1990s in the United States, several working groups were formed, staffed by military and civilian specialists. Tests were conducted at the sites Tonopah and Nellis (Nevada), Eglin (Florida), White Sands (New Mexico). The main testing center for Soviet air defense systems in 1990 has become the vast Tonopah test site in Nevada, which is larger in area than the much more famous Nevada nuclear test site located nearby.

Although Czechoslovakia and Bulgaria managed to get the C-300PMU anti-aircraft missile systems (an export version of the C-300PS) before the liquidation of the ATS, and NATO experts had access to them, these countries chose to keep modern air defense systems in their possession.


Google Earth satellite image: C-300P ground-to-ground missile systems at Tonopah, Nevada


As a result, the Americans went to the trick, acquiring in parts the elements of the C-300PT / PS and C-300В offensive systems in Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan. In Ukraine, 35D6 and 36D6М radars were purchased, which were part of the C-300PT / PS regimental air defense system kit, as well as the 96Л6Е high-altitude detector. At the first stage, the radar equipment was thoroughly tested, and then used during combat exercises of the Air Force, Navy and USMC.


ZSU-23-4 "Shilka" at the Eglin range, in Florida


By the middle of 1990, in addition to the C-300, the American defense research centers had a wide range of Soviet-made air defense equipment: Shilka ZSU-23-4, Strela-3 and Igla-1 MANPADS, 1 ”,“ Strela-10 ”,“ Osa-AKM ”,“ Cube ”and“ Circle ”, as well as object-based air defense systems С-75М3 and С-125М1. From an unnamed country of Eastern Europe to the United States, the C-200VE air defense system was delivered. Before the dissolution of the ATS, long-range complexes of this type were supplied to Bulgaria, Hungary, the GDR, Poland and Czechoslovakia from the middle of the 1980's.

In addition to the anti-aircraft complexes, the Americans were very much interested in the capabilities of our radar for detecting airborne targets and radar stations. In polygon conditions with the participation of American combat aircraft were tested radar instrumentation complex RPK-1 "VAZ", radar P-15, P-18, P-19, P-37, P-40, 35-X6, 36-XXNUM and all of the personnel of the Radiovs, 6-X9, 16-XXNXM and all of the personnel of the Radiovs, 17-X18, 35-X6 and all of the personnel of the Radiovs, 36D6, XNUMXDXNUMXM and all of the personnel of the Radiovs, XNUMXDXNUMX, XNUMXDXNUMXM and the highest forces, and radio systems, and radio systems, and radio sets, and radio sets, and radio sets. , PDF-XNUMX, PDF-XNUMX. At the same time, the P-XNUMX, XNUMXDXNUMX and XNUMXDXNNXM radars showed the best results in the detection of aircraft made with elements of low radar visibility. A thorough study of the characteristics of radar and guidance stations of anti-aircraft missile systems has allowed us to improve the equipment for jamming and to develop recommendations for methods of evasion and combat ground-based air defense systems.

Testing the suppression of the Soviet-style air defense system


After a detailed study, removal of characteristics and testing, the Americans moved to the next stage. Soviet equipment was placed on combat land use aviation sites, and with its use mass training of pilots of the Air Force, Navy, ILC and Army Aviation began. American pilots practiced tactical techniques to overcome Soviet-style air defense systems and learned in practice how to use electronic jamming equipment and aircraft weapons. Since the second half of the 1990-x pilots of American attack aircraft were able to conduct combat training using radars and guidance stations Soviet-made anti-aircraft missiles. This made it possible in the process of learning to reproduce as much as possible the high-frequency signals characteristic of the air defense systems of the states at the disposal of which are the targets of potential attacks by American aircraft.


Satellite image of Google Earth: a layout of the position of the air defense system in the vicinity of the airbase Tonopah, Nevada, the image shows traces of explosions of aviation ammunition


During the exercise, the aircraft was considered “conditionally shot down” if it was within the range of the air defense missile system for a certain time at a distance of 2 / 3 from the maximum strike range and at the same time the tracking was not disrupted.


The Strela-10 SAM and AH-64 Apache combat helicopter during joint exercises


In the US Air Force, the main centers for testing Soviet anti-aircraft systems were the landfills located in the state of Nevada near the Nellis, Fallon and Tonopah airbases, as well as in Florida near the Eglin and Mecdil airbases. To give more realism on the grounds, several runways were built imitating enemy airfields, target complexes with various structures, trains, air defense systems, bridges, armored columns and long-term defense units.


Satellite image of Google Earth: Layout of the position ZRK in the vicinity of the airbase Makdil, in the center of the position is a radar simulator with a parabolic antenna

The crews of the EA-6 Prowler and EA-18 Growler “flying jamming” crews and methods of using anti-radar guided missiles tested their actions on real samples of radar technology. The leader in such exercises was the landfills in the vicinity of the Nellis airbase and Fallon, where from 1996 to 2012 the year 4-6 once a year passed exercises to combat air defense systems and destroy ground targets. Particular attention was paid to electronic suppression. American pilots learned to operate in conditions of unstable radio communications, relying mainly on inertial navigation aids. The American command quite reasonably believes that in the event of a collision with a strong adversary, radio communication and the channels of the satellite and pulsed radio-navigation system TACAN can be very likely to be suppressed.

The use of radar and pyrotechnic simulators in the process of combat training


Currently, the intensity of such exercises has decreased by about 3 times, and most of the Soviet-made equipment is concentrated at the sites of the Nellis, Eglin, White Sands and Fort Stewart military bases. Some radars and missile guidance stations are occasionally used during exercises, but the main focus in recent 15 years has been on radar simulators.


Satellite image of Google Earth: self-propelled launcher OTR P-17, SAM "Osa-AKM", "Cube", ZSU-23-4 "Shilka" and the BTR-70 on the range located to the south of the military base Fort Stewart. Behind at the site simulators of the regimes of the SNR of Soviet air defense systems


During the operation of the Soviet radio systems, Americans faced difficulties in maintaining them in working condition. Most of the equipment lacked English technical documentation and there was a shortage of spare parts. Electronic components built on electrovacuum devices required frequent adjustment and adjustment, which implied the involvement of highly qualified specialists. As a result, the leadership of the US DoD found it irrational and too costly to use original Soviet radars for routine training and concluded contracts for the development of radar simulators with private companies involved in the combat training process.


Simulator AN / MPS-T1


At the first stage, the creation of the AN / MPS-T1 simulator that reproduces the radiation of the SNR-75 guidance station of the C-75 anti-aircraft missiles from the C-XNUMX SAM system was involved in the creation of telecommunication systems and satellite communications equipment.



The hardware van of the guidance station was transferred to another towed platform, and the electronic part was subjected to complete processing. After the transition to a modern element base, it was possible to reduce energy consumption and significantly increase reliability. The task was facilitated by the fact that the equipment was only supposed to reproduce the operating modes of the CHP-75; the actual guidance of the missiles was not required.



The simulator can be controlled by an automated workplace by one operator. In addition to the US military, the AN / MPS-T1 equipment was shipped to the UK.


Google Earth Satellite Image: AHNTECH Inc. Site at the Winston Field airport in Texas. Near the buildings are towed by radar simulators, in 30 m to the northeast of the concreted site, the C-75 launcher


The first center simulating the work of Soviet radars and ZUR guidance stations began work at the Winston Field airfield in Texas. In 2002, the US Air Force commenced regular training for the crews of the B-52H 2-th bomber air wing from the US Air Force Base Barksdale and B-1B-7 Bomber Air Wing Head from the US Air Force Dyce. After installing additional emitters and expanding the list of reproducible threats, tactical aircraft of the US Air Force, as well as AC-130 and MS-130 special purpose aviation joined the training flights in this area.

The next step was the creation of a simulator of the SNR-125 missile guidance station, which is part of the S-125 low-altitude air defense system. For this, the specialists of DRS Training & Control Systems, with minimal changes, used the original Soviet-made antenna post and new generators on a solid-state element base. This model received the designation AN / MPQ-T3.


AN / MPQ-T3 radar simulator


However, the Americans did not have a sufficient number of CHP-125 antenna posts, and several modified AN / MPQ-T3A stations were built. In this case, parabolic antennas were placed on the roof of the towed van. In addition to the operating modes of the C-125 SAM, the equipment is capable of reproducing the radiation from the OSA and the radar of the MiG-23ML and MiG-25PD fighters.


AN / MPQ-T3A radar simulator


Equipment designed to simulate the radar signals of the Cube ADMS is known as AN / MPQ-T13. Antenna post self-propelled installation intelligence and guidance 1C91 installed on the open area associated with a towed wagon.


AN / MPQ-T13 radar simulator


Also, the Americans attended to the reproduction of one of the most common Soviet-made P-37 stations. At DRS Training & Control Systems in Fort Walton Beach, the Soviet radar has been redesigned to enable long-term operation at minimal cost. The appearance of the P-37 station, which received the designation AN / MPS-T9 in the US Air Force, practically did not change, but the internal filling has changed dramatically.


Simulator of Soviet standby radar P-37 - AN / MPS-T9


About 10 years ago, Northrop Grumman began producing towed universal ARTS-V1 simulators. The equipment placed on the towed platforms, developed by the company, gives out radar radiation repeating the combat work of medium and short-range air defense missile systems: C-75, C-125, Osa, Thor, Cube and Buk.


ARTS-V1 radar simulator


The ARTS-V1 equipment includes its own radar and optoelectronic devices capable of independently detecting and tracking aircraft. In total, the US Department of Defense acquired 23 equipment set with a total value of $ 75 million, which allows it to be used during exercises not only in American territory, but also abroad. More 7 kits were delivered to foreign customers.

In the past 5 years, multisystem AN / МСТ-Т1А simulators manufactured by the US Dynamics Corporation have been actively used at American test sites. Stations of this type are capable of reproducing high-frequency radiation from most of the anti-aircraft missile systems with radio command and radar guidance systems used by potential US opponents.


Radar simulator AN / МСТ-Т1А


As part of the multisystem simulator AN / MCT-T1A, in addition to the radio frequency signal generators, the AN / MPQ-50 radar is used from the US-made MIM-23 HAWK air defense system. This allows the operator to independently control the airspace in the vicinity of the landfill and quickly target the generators at the approaching aircraft.

According to information from publicly available sources, Lockheed Martin received a contract worth $ 108 million for the supply of mobile sets of ARTS-V20 equipment to 2, which should simulate the emission of long-range anti-aircraft missile systems. Although the type of air defense systems is not disclosed, apparently, we are talking about long-range C-300PM2, C-300B4, C-400 and Chinese HQ-9А. According to American sources, research is currently being conducted on the creation of ARTS-V3, but so far there is no reliable information regarding this equipment.

According to the command, American pilots must be able to work in a difficult jamming environment, which can happen in the event of a collision with a technologically advanced enemy. In this case, there is a high probability of disrupting the operation of satellite navigation systems, radar altimeters and communications. In such conditions, the flight crew will have to rely on inertial navigation and their own skills.


Antenna post station jamming EWITR


The EWITR and AN / MLQ-Т4 stations are intended to recreate the work of the Russian EW systems that suppress onboard radar, communications and navigation equipment available on American military aircraft.


AN / MLQ-T4 jamming station


If the EWITR equipment was built in a single copy, then the more advanced AN / MLQ-Т4 station with an optoelectronic tracking system for air targets was deployed on several Air Force and Navy ranges.

Although the American polygons have radar facilities that reproduce anti-aircraft systems that pose a threat to combat aircraft of the Air Force and the US Navy, the US military does not miss a chance to practice on real modern complexes. In the past, American pilots have repeatedly learned to deal with Russian C-300P airplanes at C-300PMU / PMU-1, which are in service in Bulgaria, Greece and Slovakia. Relatively recently, information was given to the public that in the 2008 year, the Kupol target detection station and self-propelled firing system, which are part of the Buk-М1 air defense system, were tested at the Eglin range. From which country these combat vehicles were delivered to the USA is not known. Possible importers could be Greece, Georgia, Ukraine and Finland. There is also evidence that the Thor short-range air defense system was delivered to the USA from Ukraine. In 2018, it became known about the purchase by the US military in Ukraine of a three-coordinate radar combat mode 36D6М1-1. After the collapse of the USSR, 36Д6 radar stations produced in Ukraine were widely exported, including to Russia and Iran. Ten years ago, the Americans had already acquired one 36D6M radar. According to information published in the American media, the radar purchased in Ukraine was used during testing of new cruise missiles and the F-35 fighter, as well as during aviation exercises based on the Nellis base.

To train pilots to visually detect the launch of anti-aircraft missiles and to bring the situation closer to combat, from the middle of the 1990-s, Smokie SAM equipment is used in the training process, with a Cube radar signal generator and a pyrotechnic simulator launched by a missile defense system. This stationary equipment operates at a test site in the vicinity of the Nellis air base in Nevada.


Smokie SAM equipment at the site in the vicinity of the Nellis air base


In 2005, in 2005, ESCO Technologies created the AN / VPQ-1 TRTG mobile radar simulator, reproducing the operation of the Cube, Osa and ZSU-23-4 radar systems.


Radar simulator AN / VPQ-1 TRTG


The AN / VPQ-1 TRTG radar equipment deployed on various mobile chassis is usually used in conjunction with GTR-18 Smokey unguided rockets, which visually mimic the launch of the missile defense system, which in turn allows the training environment to be as close as possible to the real one. The most common modification is mounted on the chassis of an all-terrain pickup truck that tows a trailer with simulated rockets. At the moment, AN / VPQ-1 TRTG mobile kits are being actively used in the US military and NATO allies.



Although it is widely believed among ordinary people that MANPADS are extremely effective, it is greatly exaggerated. In real combat operations, the probability of hitting air targets when launching anti-aircraft missiles of portable complexes is relatively small. Nevertheless, the US Department of Defense, due to the high prevalence and high mobility of such complexes, launched a program to create simulators, which allow us to assess the likelihood of destruction of MANPADS when entering the zone of action and to work out an avoidance maneuver.


American marine with MANPADS imitator


The next step was the creation by AEgis Technologies in conjunction with the US Army Aviation and Missile Center (AMRDEC) of the towed remotely controlled MANPADS installation with a reusable MANPAD surrogate missile system equipped with an optoelectronic guidance system.


Scheme of use of the surrogate missile system MANPADS


The main purpose of the MANPADS facility is to train aircraft crews and helicopters to avoid evasion maneuvers and to test the use of countermeasures. Particular attention to the exclusion of hitting the aircraft was paid to realism and the coincidence of speeds and trajectories with real missiles and the possibility of their repeated use. Also, the thermal signature of the training rocket engine should have been close to that actually used in combat. The microprocessor of the rocket is programmed so that it should not, under any circumstances, get into the aircraft. At the end of the active part of the flight of the rocket parachute rescue system is activated. After replacing the solid motor, electric batteries and testing, it can be reused.

Currently, there are more 50 simulators of radar and missile guidance stations, as well as jammers, in American test centers and test sites. These rather complex and expensive systems are used in the course of testing new types of aircraft, avionics and aircraft weapons. In addition, the stations, reproducing the work of enemy detection systems, electronic warfare and anti-aircraft missile systems, can maximize the realism of training to overcome enemy air defense and increase the chances of survival of pilots in a combat situation. It is clear that the leadership of the US military, on the basis of existing experience and despite significant expenses, is trying to prepare the flight personnel to the extent necessary for a possible collision with an enemy with anti-aircraft systems of Soviet and Russian production.
238 comments
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  1. +31
    26 July 2019 18: 06
    Familiarization of American experts even with export models inflicted enormous damage to the defense capabilities of the USSR Air Defense Forces

    This phrase would be in our ears when Turkey s-400 was blown up ...
    1. +33
      26 July 2019 18: 36
      Look at how the sale of the S-400 to Turkey is presented in the Russian media - almost, not how, the most important "geopolitical victory" of recent years ... winked
      1. +2
        26 July 2019 20: 19
        In fact, it is. Even the ATS countries (and Yugoslavia) received simplified models, the rest even more so. For example, the Iraqi MiG-29 could not use medium-range missiles, only the R-60. Egypt probably taught. The Turkish S-400 differs from the Russian one in all but the main performance characteristics. The knowledge of our complexes in Yugoslavia did not help ...
        1. +18
          27 July 2019 02: 07
          Quote: URAL72
          Knowledge of our complexes in Yugoslavia did not help ...

          It helped a lot. The air defense of Yugoslavia lost to NATO aviation and was unable to protect many objects from destruction and the loss of the aggressors was minimal. In the course of repelling the raids, most of the air targets were shot down by barrage of anti-aircraft artillery fire. SAM S-75 and "Cub" were completely suppressed. And for the use of the C-125, a television tracking system was used, which of course greatly limited the possibilities.
          1. -6
            27 July 2019 05: 52
            Quote: Bongo
            During the reflection of the raids, most of the air targets were shot down by defensive anti-aircraft artillery fire

            Not funny. Sorry for the directness. Units were shot down - 61 aircraft, 7 helicopters, 30 UAVs (unmanned aerial vehicles) and 238 cruise missiles. This is the data of the Yugoslavs. NATO aviation made several tens of thousands of raids, in total about 1100 manned aircraft took part. How many demon pilot aircraft were there is no way to find data.
            1. +8
              27 July 2019 07: 56
              Quote: YOUR
              Units were shot down - 61 aircraft, 7 helicopters, 30 UAVs (unmanned aerial vehicles) and 238 cruise missiles.

              You do not share the source of information?
              1. -7
                27 July 2019 13: 46
                The Internet. In the search engine you gain the losses of the parties in the Yugoslav wars. You can also ask the search engine for such a question - the forces and means of the parties in the Yugoslav wars.
                There is a lot of information. There are enough links to VO.
                1. +7
                  27 July 2019 15: 54
                  Quote: YOUR
                  The Internet. In the search engine you gain the losses of the parties in the Yugoslav wars. You can also ask the search engine for such a question - the forces and means of the parties in the Yugoslav wars.

                  Have you been asked a question, are you able to answer it?
                  1. -7
                    27 July 2019 15: 59
                    Wikipedia Did I satisfy your curiosity? Can you refute what I wrote?
                    1. +7
                      27 July 2019 16: 21
                      Quote: YOUR
                      Wikipedia Did I satisfy your curiosity? Can you refute what I wrote?

                      Very authoritative source! good Wikipedia refers to me, does this mean that I am right about everything? tongue
                      1. -2
                        28 July 2019 03: 05
                        Do not jerk. If you have something to say, correct and give a link to the source. Or can you just ask others to answer no questions?
                      2. +4
                        28 July 2019 03: 59
                        Quote: YOUR
                        Do not jerk. If you have something to say, correct and give a link to the source. Or can you just ask others to answer no questions?

                        And what is the abuse, if you write frank nonsense, and are not able to confirm your words? The burden of evidence rests with the voice of the information. You voiced it, but you are not capable of proving truthfulness. negative
                      3. -6
                        28 July 2019 04: 46
                        That you can not refute what I wrote.
                        You are posing as Stanislavsky.
                        Quote: zyablik.olga
                        The burden of evidence rests with the voice of the information. You voiced it, but you are not capable of proving truthfulness.

                        These are your words. So you voiced the information that I wrote a lie. Prove or just chat and write nasty things are only capable. If you express a distrust of my information, then you have another, more reliable. Do not hide it from people.
                        Forward. The ball as they say on your side.
                      4. +1
                        28 July 2019 06: 33
                        Quote: YOUR
                        That you can not refute what I wrote.
                        You are posing as Stanislavsky.

                        Well, then you portray the great storyteller Hans Christian Andersen.
                        Quote: YOUR
                        These are your words. So you voiced the information that I wrote a lie. Prove or just chat and write nasty things are only capable. If you express a distrust of my information, then you have another, more reliable. Do not hide it from people.
                        Forward. The ball as they say on your side.

                        And let's say so, how much are you willing to bet that your information is reliable? If you are so sure that you are right, then you risk nothing.
                      5. -6
                        28 July 2019 08: 05
                        Those. on the subject can not say anything. Good luck in life, you obviously need it.
                      6. +4
                        28 July 2019 08: 11
                        Quote: YOUR
                        Those. on the subject can not say anything. Good luck in life, you obviously need it.

                        My luck, as well as my knowledge is always with me, however, as well as your nonsense with you hi
                      7. -5
                        28 July 2019 08: 27
                        I didn’t see knowledge. I’m not like to curse others like me. It can be seen that there is experience and knowledge in this area, and there is no right to know what a person is to prove.
                      8. +2
                        28 July 2019 08: 35
                        Quote: YOUR
                        I didn’t see knowledge. I’m not like to curse others like me. It can be seen that there is experience and knowledge in this area, and there is no right to know what a person is to prove.

                        I see no reason to prove the obvious. You have been offered a bet on any amount acceptable to you. Or equivalent in liquid currency. If you are sure that you are right, then you risk nothing
                      9. -4
                        28 July 2019 08: 40
                        No bet you need, you just write how many planes, helicopters, cruise missiles and other unmanned aerial vehicles were shot down during the Yugoslav wars.
                        Know write, do not know it means you are a talker without knowledge.
                      10. 0
                        28 July 2019 08: 43
                        Quote: YOUR
                        Know write, do not know it means you are a talker without knowledge.

                        So prove that I am a chatterer, but you are not. I bet you?
                      11. -6
                        28 July 2019 08: 45
                        I prove it. You do not know how many NATO aircraft were shot down in the Yugoslav wars.
                      12. +1
                        28 July 2019 08: 53
                        Quote: YOUR
                        I prove it. You do not know how many NATO aircraft were shot down in the Yugoslav wars.

                        And this after the link to Vika? wassat
                      13. -5
                        28 July 2019 08: 56
                        This is a response to your offer to prove your incompetence.
                    2. +5
                      28 July 2019 17: 13
                      Quote: YOUR
                      Wikipedia

                      hi
                      I am not only an author at VO, but also a professional content designer.
                      In my work I use data only from official sources.
                      And I always try to double-check them in several reliable sources.
                      Ideally, the data should match.
                      Wikipedia is an unofficial source.
                      Information from the encyclopedia needs rechecking.

                      Read about Edit War on Wikipedia.
                      And what A. Wasserman writes about the reliability of information from Wikipedia https://iz.ru/news/630035
                      1. -4
                        29 July 2019 00: 52
                        Good. I’m wrong that I turned to Wikipedia, but are there any people among my opponents who have knowledge and are able to write what kind of losses NATO countries suffered during the wars in Yugoslavia? Or will you just teach me how bad Wikipedia is without giving any links to reliable documents.
                        So do you have real knowledge or just self-esteem and praise of yourself super smart who use official (!) Internet sources?
                      2. +3
                        29 July 2019 08: 01
                        Quote: YOUR
                        but are there any knowledgeable people among my opponents on VO

                        hi
                        Surely there are.
                        Among them is the author of this article.
                        Sergey is a professional military man; he served in the Russian Air Force all his life.
                        He is quite an adequate interlocutor, and if you turn to him with a question (without "quirks") - he will surely give you an exhaustive answer.

                        Quote: YOUR
                        do you have valid knowledge

                        I did not study the topic of NATO losses in Yugoslavia.
                        As a rule, it takes me from 10 days to 6 months to study (it depends on the complexity of the topic, the degree of illumination, and the languages ​​of translation).
                        At the moment, I am focused on a new topic on work + I process material for HE.
                        I am very busy, for a quick answer on the topic, contact the author.

                        Quote: YOUR
                        or just narcissism and self-praise super smart

                        Why are you so?
                        I just described how professional journalists work.
                      3. -1
                        29 July 2019 08: 11
                        I asked several times, however, except for mockery, silence. Apparently the same information, but it is not enough to admit the wrongness of moral strength. Well, 27 years of calendar service are a bit about me, and what’s interesting in air defense. The situation in Yugoslavia was analyzed not according to Internet articles, but according to materials with a minimal signature stamp of chipboard.
                      4. +1
                        29 July 2019 08: 39
                        Quote: YOUR
                        I asked several times, however, except for mockery, silence.

                        And now you try to ask: already as a colleague - a colleague.

                        ... Louis, I think this is the beginning of a wonderful friendship wink ...
                      5. -2
                        29 July 2019 14: 51
                        Why, I already know the true situation.
                      6. +1
                        29 July 2019 08: 47
                        the result is important, and there is a lack of presence. Hartman also shot almost three air divisions of the Red Army, and Wittmann shot almost the tank division of the Red Army and what, the red banner developed over the Reichstag and not the spider over the Kremlin, see the root
              2. 0
                5 October 2019 10: 39
                Why do you need a source of information?
                Do you want to be happy for the Yugoslavs and the Soviet military-industrial complex or? ..
                Well, for example, "an unnamed authoritative source at the Pentagon" will suit you? No? It's strange. And now it has become fashionable to refer to this "authoritative source" and the like. And most importantly, many people believe. This is an Authoritative source !!
                VO refers to the "authoritative" Zina, Sokhu, National Interest, and recently some, not yet memorized ... And articles with a link to the above "unnamed source in MO" also slipped here.
                By the way, the author of the article also did not indicate the sources of his information. Probably, he personally visited all the polygons, he personally was on duty on Google satellites and, in general, he is the same "James Bond, whose girlfriend was imprisoned in Iran, about which there is an article today.
            2. +4
              27 July 2019 22: 40
              Quote: YOUR
              Units were shot down - 61 aircraft, 7 helicopters, 30 UAVs (unmanned aerial vehicles) and 238 cruise missiles. This is the data of the Yugoslavs.

              Ah, if it were true ...
              In reality, the losses of NATO countries during the bombing of Yugoslavia are absolutely minimal.
            3. +1
              29 July 2019 08: 22
              61 aircraft, 7 helicopters, 30 UAVs (unmanned aerial vehicles) and 238 cruise missiles. ...... well, the winners are not judged in the first place, such infa is in the hands of the State Department mustache since the sales person is ok, the U-99 squad very nicely joined in, if they even shot it randomly at the battery level or even worse than a separate memory device, the fact itself is important in neutralizing enemy aircraft, for clarity, I can give an example. by the forces of the DPR and LPR armed forces, Ukraine’s aviation was neutralized, it’s as if it’s eating, but it doesn’t bother the people of Dnipro anymore and how many of these chickens they put into the lashport on the drum — that’s an indicator, but how much they’ve been scratched ..... it's for grandmothers at the entrances, and with such a leadership the Yu-99 would not save anything in any scenario, just like in Iraq, exactly like in Libya, while Syria is fighting
          2. +1
            27 July 2019 12: 33
            Sergey, this is someone who got shot down with barrage?
            1. +8
              27 July 2019 13: 28
              Tornado. They broke through to targets at a low altitude, in a straight line.
              And ran into a continuous anti-aircraft fire.
              Then the inefficiency of this aircraft and such a method became clear.
              attacks.
              1. +6
                27 July 2019 13: 56
                This tactic of using the "Tornado" was used by the British back in Iraq in 91. And it turned out that a similar flight profile of the "Tornado" for attacking ground targets is the most beneficial ... for Iraqi anti-aircraft gunners. For which I flunked several cars.
                1. 0
                  27 July 2019 13: 59
                  Therefore, they are written off. A primitive "blind" plane.
                  1. +2
                    28 July 2019 11: 28
                    The tornado was created in the 70s of the last century, it has served its elementary time. In addition, the machine has limited resources for modernization and a very dense layout of internal systems. To cram something new there, you need to sacrifice something from the existing one. And I would not say that this is a "blind" machine there is quite a decent PRNK worth. In the same Iraq, the losses were caused not so much by the shortcomings of the aircraft as by the wrong tactics of use. And as a result, they ran into 100mm KS-19 fire when trying to attack an airfield from a low altitude with unsuppressed air defense.
                    1. 0
                      28 July 2019 11: 44
                      I agree with you. The tornado was created "inflexible" and cannot be upgraded. The F-16, for example, is also from the 70s, but it is still being successfully matched to the modern level.
              2. -3
                28 July 2019 03: 28
                Cool. Those. ZU-23-2 is a very effective weapon. And why were they removed from the air defense?
                1. +4
                  28 July 2019 04: 00
                  Quote: YOUR
                  Cool. Those. ZU-23-2 is a very effective weapon. And why were they removed from the air defense?

                  In what reality were they removed?
                  1. -3
                    28 July 2019 04: 57
                    In my reality, they were removed from the air defense. Everything is in storage, in combat units they are not. In 1986 they were gone by state. Also, the ZSU "Shilka" was replaced by 100% with the ZSU "Tunguska", which, in turn, are planned to be replaced by the ZSU "Pantsir".
                    1. +7
                      28 July 2019 06: 38
                      Quote: YOUR
                      In my reality, they were removed from the air defense. Everything is in storage, in combat units they are not. In 1986 they were gone by state. Also, the ZSU "Shilka" was replaced by 100% with the ZSU "Tunguska", which, in turn, are planned to be replaced by the ZSU "Pantsir".

                      Sorry, what is this?

                      ZU-23 remained in the Airborne Forces, and are considered as anti-aircraft amplification in the battalion unit of the Ground Forces. Actively used in both Chechen and in conflict with Georgia.
                      1. -2
                        28 July 2019 08: 06
                        Wow, what's this new anti-aircraft complex?
                      2. +3
                        28 July 2019 08: 36
                        Quote: YOUR
                        Wow, what's this new anti-aircraft complex?

                        And what then to say, if you do not know what it is?
              3. +4
                28 July 2019 09: 15
                I understand that Sergei wrote about Yugoslavia-99
                1. +6
                  28 July 2019 09: 19
                  Quote: sivuch
                  I understand that Sergei wrote about Yugoslavia-99

                  Yes sir. And about the loss of NATO aircraft in this company. Anyone who is at least a little in the subject, writing about 61 downed by NATO aircraft in their right mind will not.
            2. +4
              27 July 2019 15: 53
              Quote: sivuch
              Sergey, this is someone who got shot down with barrage?

              KR
              1. -3
                28 July 2019 05: 04
                Share your tactical technique, how barrage fire was carried out against the Kyrgyz Republic and airplanes flying at low altitude. I explain my interest. Apparently in the school we were somehow incorrectly taught and told. KR fly at altitudes 15 - 50 meters, as at such a height you can put a barrage. After all, you need not only stupidly shoot somewhere upwards, but also to set the height of the explosion on the shells.
                Very interesting is your method.
                1. +3
                  28 July 2019 06: 39
                  Quote: YOUR
                  Share your tactical technique, how barrage fire was carried out against the Kyrgyz Republic and airplanes flying at low altitude. I explain my interest. Apparently in the school we were somehow incorrectly taught and told. KR fly at altitudes 15 - 50 meters, as at such a height you can put a barrage. After all, you need not only stupidly shoot somewhere upwards, but also to set the height of the explosion on the shells.
                  Very interesting is your method.

                  Are you crazy? What is a remote fuse on MZA?
                  1. -2
                    28 July 2019 08: 08
                    Those. fencing according to your method, we fire at our ground objects. Well, the enemy got less.
              2. 0
                29 July 2019 10: 01
                And I thought that B-2 smile
          3. +1
            28 July 2019 09: 34
            Sergey, in fact, there were practically no 75's there - they had already been removed from service. One, however, was restored, but they quickly dealt with it.
            1. +1
              28 July 2019 09: 43
              Quote: sivuch
              Sergey, in fact, there were practically no 75's there - they had already been removed from service. One, however, was restored, but they quickly dealt with it.

              EMNIP, NATO Combat Aviation for Serbian Police C-75 worked.
        2. +1
          28 July 2019 18: 33
          MiG-29 (9-12B) - an export modification of the MiG-29 (9-12), supplied to countries outside the Warsaw Treaty Organization. The export model introduced changes to the weapons control system (SUV-29E). They were equipped with R-27R1 and R-27T1 missiles, which had degraded characteristics with respect to basic modifications.
      2. +3
        26 July 2019 21: 03
        Quote: Monster_Fat
        Watch how the sale of S-400 Turkey is served in the Russian media


        there are the Chinese how many c-300s in Russia they didn’t buy and for so much time they didn’t learn how to rivet equivalent counterparts. But with the s-300, they can’t even repeat the Kalash qualitatively. We sold the RD-181 to the Americans along with all the drawings and how much they didn’t they tried and could not start production at home and therefore continue to buy them in Russia.

        Undermining the country's defense is only getting full-fledged non-export samples, as was the case with the collapse of the USSR and the fall of the Berlin Wall. But to be honest, no one has done more damage to Russia's defense in the 90s than Ukrainian independent power. Only one transfer to the U.S. in 90s -27 and S-300 what it costs.
        1. +9
          26 July 2019 21: 41
          Quote: lopvlad
          they can’t even Kalash repeat qualitatively.

          maybe they don't want to? Now Mercedes is not distinguished by its durability - engines of "million" are in the past. For themselves, they probably do well
          1. -3
            26 July 2019 22: 29
            Quote: Silvestr
            Quote: lopvlad
            they even Kalash cannot repeat qualitatively.

            may not want? Now Mercedes does not differ in durability - engines of "million" are in the past. For themselves, they probably do well

            Well, yes, yes ... and here it is -

            Quote: lopvlad
            ... how many Chinese c-300 in Russia they didn’t buy and for so much time never learned to rivet equivalent counterparts...

            - They also "do not want" laughing
            1. +12
              27 July 2019 00: 11
              Quote: Cat Man Null
              they also "don't want"

              You just have to throw away all the Chinese-router, computer, kitchen appliances, textiles, phone, etc. - see what remains. Snobbery fails. If you couldn’t do it today, you can tomorrow laughing
              1. -5
                27 July 2019 00: 25
                Quote: Silvestr
                You have to throw away all the Chinese ...

                Man, don’t teach me what to do ... I, this, myself ... without an ensemble wink

                Quote: Silvestr
                all Chinese- router, computer, kitchen appliances, textiles, telephone

                The Chinese were taught this "all" by their kind uncle-investors. With the transfer of technology and equipment.
                Now these uncles bite their elbows, but - late to rush, the Chinese have already learned how to make smartphones.

                Quote: Silvestr
                could not do today - they can tomorrow

                Well, probably they can. The only question is that for this "tomorrow" they will have to copy again. Because others (including the Russian Federation) also do not stand still, and transferring new technologies to the Chinese is dumb, an example is before your eyes ...

                So ... doctor wink

                PS: in my memory except china, the Chinese in their entire history have not invented anything significant. Correct, if I am mistaken.
                1. +7
                  27 July 2019 01: 06
                  Paper and gunpowder. Rockets.
                2. +6
                  27 July 2019 01: 21
                  Quote: Cat Man Null
                  PS: in my memory, except for china, the Chinese in their entire history have not invented anything significant. Correct, if I am mistaken.

                  Gunpowder, compass, silk fabrics.
                  Quote: Cat Man Null
                  The Chinese were taught this "all" by their kind uncle-investors. With the transfer of technology and equipment.
                  Not "Good Uncles", but elementary greed. The labor force cost a penny in China in those years.
                  1. 0
                    27 July 2019 08: 21
                    Quote: Amurets
                    Not "Good Uncles", but elementary greed

                    That was sarcasm. Have you heard that word? wink

                    Quote: Amurets
                    Gunpowder, compass, silk fabrics

                    If this is all, then we will have to wait for a new "compass" from the Chinese for a very long time. Not everyone will survive (c) not mine.
                3. 0
                  30 July 2019 17: 19
                  You are mistaken ascribing the invention of porcelain to the Chinese .. I don’t know how anyone but I have big doubts about this ... As well as gunpowder and paper .... About 15 years ago, wandering around the Hermitage came across a Chinese exhibition. What it wasn’t there. The earliest examples of Chinese porcelain are the 17th century, and somehow everything is strikingly similar to Gzhel. Blue on a white background. It turns out that this craft in Russia is almost 700 years old. And the Chinese, to preserve color and brightness, varnished products. What in Russia He’s never done it. He talks about the quality and composition of clay. Most of all, he was struck by a big casket .. Even not a casket but a small chest .. Ancients were like mammoth shit. The truth was, this casket was far away and it was difficult to make out details .. But a colorful catalog of the whole exhibition was on sale and I am his coupe il .. And then two years later I noticed a blooper. The top lid of this chest opened on hinges .. And the hinges were screwed on .. I rummaged but did not find any mention of Chinese screws anywhere ... That's something like this
          2. +11
            27 July 2019 02: 15
            Quote: Silvestr
            may not want?

            A delusion that is very convenient for "patriots". You can, of course, "stick your head in the sand", or you can ask what part of the "electronic filling" of our most modern technology is assembled from Chinese components.
            1. -4
              27 July 2019 22: 26
              Quote: Bongo
              what part of the "electronic filling" of our most modern technology is assembled from Chinese components.

              I will answer - NO! The use of foreign components and components in the production of domestic weapons is PROHIBITED. Not so long ago, Pribor OJSC almost lost its defense order for the use of imported flash memory. VERY quickly switched to domestic, by the way not the worst!
        2. +11
          27 July 2019 02: 12
          Quote: lopvlad
          won the Chinese how many c-300 in Russia did not buy and for so long did not learn to rivet equivalent analogues.

          Especially for those who think so was a review of the 9 parts of the Chinese air defense. At the end of each there is an active link to the previous parts.
          https://topwar.ru/154331-sovershenstvovanie-sistemy-pvo-knr-na-fone-strategicheskogo-sopernichestva-s-ssha-ch-9.html
          Only due to the fact that there are many letters, and it is necessary to "turn on the brain" not many have mastered it. No.
          1. 0
            27 July 2019 10: 16
            Are you seriously trying to argue that the Chinese counterpart of the S-300 has the same performance characteristics as the latest Russian S-300s?

            Quote: Bongo
            and it is necessary to "turn on the brain" not many have mastered it.


            only those who write this brain in their lives do not just turn on but don’t know how this switch looks like.
            1. +3
              27 July 2019 15: 55
              Quote: lopvlad
              only those who write this brain in their lives do not just turn on but don’t know how this switch looks like.

              You have provided a link, you read it?
            2. -7
              27 July 2019 23: 47
              Do not be surprised - after analyzing the comments of "comrade" Bongo, I concluded that he is an adept (or an employee) from the "other side". His task is not at all to "sow good and eternal," but to instill uncertainty in the heads of patriots of Russia and sow discord between them!
              1. +2
                28 July 2019 16: 48
                Quote: Igor Aviator
                After analyzing the comments of the "comrade" Bongo, I concluded that he was an adept (or an employee) from the "other side".

                You can blame anyone, and anything else.
                Can you prove your words?
                Without demagoguery: Yes or No?
        3. +7
          27 July 2019 04: 13
          I don't know about the SU 27, but Ukraine had nothing to do with the transfer of the C300 to the States. The s300PMU air defense system was sold to the United States by Russia through Belarus. There was an attempt to sell this air defense system directly, but the deputies of the Russian parliament reared and thwarted this attempt. Then Moscow phoned Minsk and soon the air defense systems 300 were loaded onto planes at one of the military airfields near Minsk and quietly flew to the United States. Then, in this way, a lot of things were sold, and not only to the United States but also to many other countries, including China and the Arab countries of the Middle East. It should also be noted that there is no fundamental difference between the export version of the C300 and the one used in the Russian Armed Forces. And the last thing. The entire experience of using Soviet-made air defense systems in foreign countries shows that these air defense systems could never reliably cover these countries, although they did some damage to the air attack weapons of the opponents of these countries. Even the notorious defeat of the F117, the only stealth aircraft in Yugoslavia, was caused not so much by the effectiveness of the Soviet-made S200 air defense system, as by the violation of the tactics of using the F117, which was then adopted by the US Air Force, which went to the BZ without the then usual cover. But even this single defeat made it possible for the US Air Force to knock out a lot of money for the development of new, more efficient stealth aircraft, for example, F22, F35. So the Yugoslav minor "victory" turned into a really major victory for the US Air Force and military-industrial complex. This approach is being demonstrated by the United States today. A fear of Russian military power is played out. for which in publications like the National Interest and others like him, articles of some "experts" are initiated who show and prove the weakness of the modern air and missile arsenal of the United States, then in the press close to the US Armed Forces and the military-industrial complex, a hysterical wave like "everything is lost" and the US Congress on a blue eye, allocates new billions to strengthen his stolen power. It's bad that numerous VO authors and commentators are also caught up in this wave, who, without getting up from the couch, assess what will happen if, say, F22 and SS 35 bump into or express violent delight about the incomparable Khibins who beat Cook. I don't even want to mention the almost religious belief in a certain wunderwaffe, which is tirelessly advertised by the "talking heads" of the RF Ministry of Defense and the Russian media.
          1. -8
            27 July 2019 06: 23
            but had nothing to do with the transfer of the C300 to the States of Ukraine. SAM S300PMU was sold in the United States by Russia through Belarus.


            this is a complete lie. Any sale of the anti-aircraft defense category to which C-300 belongs under the full control of the FSB and the sale of non-export options is prohibited and persons trying to do this instantly fall under the article on treason.

            "Even the notorious defeat of the F117" invisible "aircraft, the only one for the entire war in Yugoslavia, was caused not so much by the effectiveness of the Soviet-made S200 air defense system, as by the violation of the tactics of using the F117, which was then adopted in the US Air Force, which went to the BZ without the then usual cover."

            cover for the "invisible"? .Do you at least understand what you wrote that? .Invisible for that he is invisible to fly without cover and with cover and any rusty trough can.


            Quote: gregor6549
            It's bad that numerous VO authors and commentators are also caught in this wave, who, without getting up from the couch, assess what will happen if, say, F22 and SS 35 rush into SS XNUMX or express violent delight about the incomparable Khibins who beat Cook. I don't even want to mention the almost religious belief in a certain wunderwaffe, which is tirelessly advertised by the "talking heads" of the RF Ministry of Defense and the Russian media.


            religious faith, and only you are showing in American weapons. Any thinking and sane person understands that "invisible" does not exist and this is not invisibility, namely stealth for enemy radars (usually outdated radars). For any modern radar, even Chinese, F-22 and even more so F-35 is not a problem.
            Only Americans and their kneeling adherents to a star-striped mattress have a religious belief in some type of weapon at the dogma level.
            1. +5
              27 July 2019 09: 11
              Quote: lopvlad
              this is a complete lie. Any sale of the anti-aircraft defense category to which C-300 belongs under the full control of the FSB and the sale of non-export options is prohibited and persons trying to do this instantly fall under the article on treason.

              It is necessary to remember what a mess was going on in those years in the vastness of the former Soviet Union. Everything that could be sold was sold and the FSB took an active part in these sales. The sale of the C300 is just one of the episodes of the then black market. One can also recall an attempt to sell a whole echelon of tanks to one of the former republics of the Union. The Russian Parliament learned about this attempt by accident, raised a fuss and managed to block it. But the sale of the C300 I mentioned went without noise and dust. We can also mention the sale of weapons and military equipment of the GSVG. There, too, everything was sold in echelons. And the FSB mainly monitored so that the servicemen thrown out of the military camps in Germany and thrown with their families in the tent cities of Belarus did not dissolve their tongues. And those who were not distinguished by restraint were quickly reassured by arranging "accidents".
              1. +4
                27 July 2019 09: 25
                Quote: gregor6549
                cover for the "invisible"? .Do you at least understand what you wrote that? .Invisible for that he is invisible to fly without cover and with cover and any rusty trough can.

                The fact is that the F117, although it was made using the then existing stealth technologies, was nothing like a combat aircraft at all. All he could carry was a couple of bombs. Besides them, there was no other weapon on it. The "stupid" Americans were fully aware of the "miraculous" properties of this invisibility and therefore, as a rule, they covered it with an outfit of fighters and electronic warfare aircraft, which allowed the F117 to disguise itself quite decently against the background of its cover (especially if it began to put active and passive interference and fire PRS on the radar of the Yugoslavian Armed Forces, as well as to defend against attacks by fighters of the Yugoslavian Air Force, if such attacks suddenly happened. required.
                1. -1
                  5 August 2019 03: 05
                  Quote: gregor6549
                  ... It’s bad that numerous authors and commentators of VO are caught on this wave, who, not getting up from the couch, evaluate what will happen if, say, F22 bumps into SU 35 or ...

                  You showed last time obsolete "ignorance" of radarAnd now quietly write lies . When simulating a hypothetical air battle, the capabilities of radar and other avionics are compared, as well as the use of weapons ... For starters, you will learn how to count by radar and learn how to write nasty things about others! It is necessary to be able to lose, and not deliberately pour out a lie, including with regard to me.
                  1. +1
                    6 August 2019 08: 46
                    Dear (although unlikely) Eugene,
                    I gave the system for collecting the processing and transmission of radar information for about 40 years, starting with the Air 1P and Air 1M automated control systems and ending with the Maneuver and Etalon automated control systems, if, of course, these names tell you anything.
                    In the course of work on the "Maneuver" ACCU, it was necessary to deal, among other things, with the issues of protecting automated systems for collecting, processing and transmitting radar data from electronic warfare means of potential adversaries, including the issues of dynamic modeling of the radar field of large systems under the influence of electronic warfare equipment and the interaction of air defense ACCS and the Air Force with active means (air defense systems, fighters, etc.).
                    And the above systems were interfaced with practically all the then-known types of air defense radar of the Dry Forces and Air Defense of the Country, both in service and under development. Those. I have some knowledge in the field of radar, as well as some experience with regard to their practical application. Given that many of the current new radar systems are essentially well forgotten i.e. modernized old ones, I would not say that my knowledge in the field of radar is very outdated, especially since the theory of radar developed in the Soviet years is quite successfully applied now and, in general, has not changed dramatically.
            2. +4
              27 July 2019 09: 14
              Quote: lopvlad
              For any modern radar, even the Chinese one, the F-22 and especially the F-35 is not a problem.

              then it’s not clear at all, why the heck is spending billions on su-57?
              There is no where to put money, or the hope that the adversary has no radars wink
              1. -2
                27 July 2019 22: 40
                Quote: atalef
                why the heck is spending billions on a su-57?
                There is no where to put money

                I was always touched by the love of "God's chosen" to count money in other people's pockets. Do not be killed like this, you will never be killed like that! And now for your reference - the Su-57 was designed for air superiority. And, I dare to assure you, this device is able to provide it! It remains to establish serial deliveries of this equipment to the aviation units, which, over time, will be done.
            3. 0
              28 July 2019 09: 59
              Quote: lopvlad
              Even the notorious defeat of the F117, the only stealth aircraft in Yugoslavia, was caused not so much by the effectiveness of the Soviet-made S200 air defense system, as by the violation of the tactics of using the F117, which was then adopted in the US Air Force, which went to the BZ without the then usual cover. "
              For your information, this operation involved an old Chinese microwave, an old diesel engine that gave an imitation of the operation of DES and the C-125 Pechora air defense system, but in no way C-200.
              1. +2
                28 July 2019 10: 16
                Quote: Amurets
                For your information, this operation involved an old Chinese microwave, an old diesel engine that gave an imitation of the operation of DES and the C-125 Pechora air defense system, but in no way C-200.

                Nikolay, "patriots" are not interested in such details, for them the main thing is to shout louder "hurray".
                1. +2
                  28 July 2019 11: 50
                  Quote: Bongo
                  Nikolay, "patriots" are not interested in such details, for them the main thing is to shout louder "hurray".
                  Alas and ah. Right here in one of the comments they noticed where to find the switch to turn on the thought.
                  Put a cover in the guard of the invisible? "Even the notorious defeat of the F117" invisible "aircraft, the only one for the entire war in Yugoslavia, was caused not so much by the effectiveness of the Soviet-made S200 air defense system, as by the violation of the tactics of using the F117, which was then adopted in the US Air Force, which went to the BZ without the then usual cover."
                  For what? To be more reliably detected by means of detection, then guidance on a television channel?
            4. +2
              28 July 2019 18: 37
              T-80U and 2C6 were sold to Britain, although they were not subject to export. Where was the FSB? This is just 1 example.
          2. +3
            27 July 2019 07: 58
            Quote: gregor6549
            I don’t know how 27 SU, but Ukraine had nothing to do with the transfer of 300 to the States. S300PMU SAM was sold to the United States by Russia through Belarus.

            Where in Belarus export modification C-300PMU?
            1. +3
              27 July 2019 08: 53
              Quote: zyablik.olga
              Where in Belarus export modification C-300PMU?

              In Minsk anti-aircraft missile. MVIZRU. In which since 1963 they trained foreigners.
              1. +1
                27 July 2019 15: 56
                I agree, it could well be Yes
                1. +2
                  27 July 2019 16: 22
                  This is the main version of the scandal. voiced in due time by "Kommersant". There, however, they tried to assert that it was a grandiose hoax, and the Americans were driven into "misinformation", but this is unlikely.
                  1. +3
                    27 July 2019 16: 32
                    Quote: Spade
                    There, however, they tried to assert that it was a grandiose hoax, and the Americans were driven into "misinformation", but this is unlikely.

                    Well, there are satellite photos of C-300 positions at one of the landfills in the USA

                    I do not think that they did not compare the characteristics and capabilities of these systems with the same air defense systems of Greece
                    1. +3
                      27 July 2019 16: 35
                      Quote: svp67
                      Well, there are satellite photos of C-300 positions at one of the landfills in the USA

                      Well, apparently not for all this argument request However, at my disposal there are also satellite images of the elements of the C-300P aerial response systems in the United States. Need to?
            2. +4
              27 July 2019 09: 01
              Actually, in 1994, several businessmen, under the patronage of Kozyrev and Lukashenko, sold some elements of the S-300 air defense system to the Americans, several dozen missiles, three or four launchers, maintenance and routine maintenance vehicles and an all-round radar hit the United States from Belarus, Russia and Kazakhstan It was just bought in Kazakhstan. If not GRU and FSB officers, then the dealers almost sold all the weapons of the air defense regiment of the Z300 SXNUMX air defense system of the city of Minsk
              1. 0
                27 July 2019 09: 51
                Do not compose a new story, we would have to understand the old and learn lessons
                1. +2
                  27 July 2019 10: 41
                  No writings, this is a real story. It happened in 1994, you can search a lot about it in Google, but besides Google there are living witnesses of the incident. In fact, Lukoshenko and Andrei Kozyrev sold some components of the 300-PT air defense system, and if not GRU officers, and only at that time, the president created the FSB, then Lukoshenko almost sold all the weapons of the S-300PT air defense regiment. By the way, this is also written in the American media
                2. +2
                  27 July 2019 10: 59
                  https://oko-planet.su/politik/politikarm/112104-kak-dostalas-amerikancam-nasha-zrs-s-300.html
          3. +4
            27 July 2019 12: 42
            Did you want your zrk to be a prodigy? In Iraq or Yugoslavia, the air defense had no chance. By the way, in Yugoslavia, in addition to one downed goblin, there was one wrecked.
            1. +1
              29 July 2019 07: 25
              In Iraq or Yugoslavia, the air defense had no chance .... but what about these chances, if the entire command was under the hood of the State Department, mustache, in such cases, no guidance systems would help, even if there were fantastic railguns
          4. 0
            27 July 2019 16: 17
            Three hundred state departments were handed over by our left-handed friends from Kazakhstan, along with documentation ...
          5. +4
            28 July 2019 09: 31
            Even the notorious defeat of the F117 "invisible" aircraft, the only one for the entire war in Yugoslavia, was caused not so much by the effectiveness of the Soviet-made S200 air defense system, as by the violation of the tactics of using the F117, which was then adopted by the US Air Force, which went to the BZ without the then usual cover
            -----------------------------------------
            And this comment put pluses? As I understand it for C-200, which the Serbs didn’t have.
            1. +1
              28 July 2019 09: 44
              Quote: sivuch
              And this comment put pluses? As I understand it for C-200, which the Serbs didn’t have.

              Does that surprise you?
              1. +2
                28 July 2019 10: 20
                Yes, here that the S-200, that 70 aircraft shot down in Yugoslavia .Nihil admirari
          6. The comment was deleted.
          7. The comment was deleted.
        4. +3
          27 July 2019 08: 38
          Regarding Kalash, I think you're wrong Chinese Kalash, type 68 and type 81 are not so different in quality from AKM and AK-74, and so the cheapest Chinese type 56 was heavier and inferior in quality to AKM, and some types of Chinese air defense systems and MANPADS also not bad
        5. -1
          28 July 2019 09: 52
          > along with all the drawings and how much they tried and failed
          but they tried 0 times (they didn’t try nirazu)
      3. +2
        27 July 2019 05: 39
        They themselves have only 54 complexes, but to sell, sell, sell ....
        It has long been said that in the air defense hole from Novosibirsk to Khabarovsk, but .............
        1. -4
          27 July 2019 22: 46
          Quote: YOUR
          they say that in the air defense a hole from Novosibirsk to Khabarovsk,

          they say that chickens are brought. Do not spread fake rumors, dear!
      4. +1
        27 July 2019 19: 53
        Only business, nothing personal.
    2. +4
      26 July 2019 19: 15
      Quote: armata_armata
      This phrase would be in our ears when Turkey s-400 was blown up ...

      Arms and drug trafficking is the most profitable business. States mastered both that and that. Russia sells weapons, so what? The defense industry has become a business. One difference is that states sell weapons to allies. But since Russia does not have them, it is necessary to sell to all interested partners. For Russia also has no enemies :-)
  2. +12
    26 July 2019 18: 21
    Interestingly, do ours have at least something similar to reach and study the materiel of a hypothetical enemy? And then the beloved liberals "partners! With sweat on their faces are preparing to confront our air defense, and we just repeat like a mantra" peace, friendship, chewing gum " wassat
    Just don't say that everything is secret with us, that we are ahead of the rest of the world and that the Yankers are ready to overcome the "Torah" is not essential ...
    The enemy is studying us - are we studying it? what request .....
    1. -1
      26 July 2019 20: 34
      Of course have. The same Egypt supplied, Iraq, Vietnam and others. Now we are almost on friendly terms with Iran, and maybe it will be transferred from the Turks. Legally purchased samples for themselves and for export deliveries. And in industrial espionage we are put on the second step ...
      1. +2
        27 July 2019 02: 17
        Quote: URAL72
        Of course have. The same Egypt delivered, Iraq, Vietnam and others. Now we are on friendly terms with Iran, maybe it will come from the Turks.

        Of course, you are able to voice what modern models of American weapons other than those captured during the events of 08.08.08 have been recently studied in Russia?
        1. +1
          27 July 2019 08: 17
          Quote: Bongo
          Of course, you are able to voice what modern models of American weapons other than those captured during the events of 08.08.08 have been recently studied in Russia?

          What is your holy belief based on that the public must be informed about the fact of withdrawal and study?
          1. +3
            27 July 2019 08: 30
            Quote: Spade
            What is your holy belief based on that the public must be informed about the fact of withdrawal and study?

            In the modern world, it’s impossible to hide for a long time. But judging by your confidence, you participated in the capture of secret American weapons.
            1. 0
              27 July 2019 08: 45
              Quote: zyablik.olga
              In the modern world, it’s impossible to hide for a long time.

              laughing
              In order to hide it was possible, there is an article in the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation. titled "High Treason". Haven't you heard of this?

              Quote: zyablik.olga
              But judging by your confidence, you participated in the capture of secret American weapons.

              Are you sure that I am obliged to report the whole truth to you?
              Tin! laughing
              1. 0
                28 July 2019 10: 11
                Quote: Spade
                In order to hide it was possible, there is an article in the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation. titled "High Treason".

                And to get these secrets out, there are handouts.
                1. +2
                  28 July 2019 12: 02
                  Quote: Amurets
                  And to get these secrets out, there are handouts.

                  And more arms exhibitions. but it’s only after the fact.
            2. +3
              27 July 2019 10: 02
              While banknotes are in circulation in the world, there will always be those who want to get hold of these banknotes more and at any cost. The secret services of all more or less significant countries have quite successfully used this and are using it, acquiring military equipment and weapons of interest to them, as well as those documentation. In addition, it is not at all necessary to have a sample of military equipment or weapons of a potential enemy. Now "hardware" is quite effectively replaced by various imitators and imitation models of this technique. Moreover, simulators and models make it possible to evaluate the effectiveness of opposing systems in a so-called controlled test environment, which is often more beneficial than trying to assess this effectiveness with "borrowed" samples. Of course, developing simulators and simulation models is very expensive, but the game is worth the candle
          2. +4
            27 July 2019 09: 18
            Quote: Spade
            Quote: Bongo
            Of course, you are able to voice what modern models of American weapons other than those captured during the events of 08.08.08 have been recently studied in Russia?

            What is your holy belief based on that the public must be informed about the fact of withdrawal and study?

            Shovels, you are sometimes just not completely understood - and what is your belief based on, that if they don’t say, don’t write, there was no way to seize, buy, etc. then it’s all the same and is being studied.
            So it can be said even more simply - the States in general have everything and s-400 is already being studied with them.
            Nobody just talks about it.
            Now prove the opposite hi
            1. +4
              27 July 2019 09: 52
              Quote: atalef
              and what is your faith based on?

              I have no faith. I have sanity. Always stolen and always studied. And they never boasted of it.

              Quote: atalef
              and s-400 is already being studied with them. Nobody just talks about it.

              Probably.
              After all, I have not reached that measure of inadequacy when convinced. that it’s not raining outside the window until it’s written on Twitter.
              1. +1
                27 July 2019 10: 20
                Quote: Spade
                Probably.

                ZOG rules.
                Quote: Spade
                until it’s tweeted about it.

                Of course, your statement is there, but no one knows about it --- it differs much from this. wink
                1. 0
                  27 July 2019 10: 57
                  Quote: atalef
                  ZOG rules

                  Rather "brain"
                  Quote: atalef
                  Your statement is there, but no one knows about it

                  You have so huge problems with the Russian language?
                  Or are you so used to lying?
        2. -1
          27 July 2019 22: 55
          Quote: Bongo
          what are the modern examples of american weapons

          Quote: Bongo
          recently studied in Russia

          It’s not good to answer a question with a question, but I’ll try: and which ones MODERN Have samples of Russian weapons been recently studied in the United States? I ask you not to poke me with outdated, still Soviet, equipment of the 60-80s model, and other "merde".
  3. +6
    26 July 2019 18: 40
    Yeah.
    They gave equipment to all sorts of "friends" of almost fascist persuasion, like the same Nasser. "Take the order away from Nasser, does not fit the order of Nasser", as Vysotsky sang. Couldn't they have realized that it would not be possible to buy allies, tk. such soyuznichki will go to the one who has more dough?
    And now "friend Erdogan" will break down, increase the price - and sell S-400 mattresses.
    1. +2
      26 July 2019 20: 41
      And your beloved democrats did not give Pol Pot, Samos, Pinochet, the cannibal Bokass, South Africa, UNITA, the Taliban, the black colonels of Greece, Shah of Iran, Hussein, and many others?
      1. +2
        27 July 2019 08: 39
        First, the mattresses, which for some reason you call "democrats", are never mine.
        Secondly, they, with the support of regimes loyal to themselves, besides geopolitical benefits, still had an economic profit.
    2. D16
      -3
      26 July 2019 21: 34
      S-400 complex for fixing the status quo. It is not for nothing that Putin in some interview offered it to the Americans. With whom is the Turks really serious conflict? With the Greeks. According to their souls, the Turks took care of the acquisition and, in part, the production of a modern long-range air defense system. The Greeks, of course, were offended. But now the square has a tomos or thomas. I don’t know what it is, but the Ukrainians were happy. laughing
    3. 0
      15 August 2019 15: 35
      Lying on the beach belly up
      Semi-Nazi, Semi-Jew
      Hero of the Soviet Union
      Gamal Abd al-on-all-Nasser
      1. 0
        15 August 2019 15: 39
        there was a half-eser :)
        1. 0
          15 August 2019 15: 43
          Maybe I heard her like that ...
  4. +7
    26 July 2019 18: 46
    In short, we are fools again. They sold Papuan air defense missile systems, now a likely adversary knows a lot about Russian air defense. The United States is smarter than us in this matter. In any case, we have no petriots.
    1. 0
      26 July 2019 19: 15
      We can very likely have a fair amount of documentation for the F-35. At least the United States is doing everything for this in relations with Turkey.
      So everything is not as clear as it seems. I’m telling you the daughter of an anti-aircraft gunner and an aircraft manufacturer.
      1. 0
        26 July 2019 19: 18
        Just do not pass. But if the GRU is able to steal
        1. The comment was deleted.
    2. D16
      0
      26 July 2019 21: 09
      In short, we are fools again

      You may be a fool. AA works partly on the money of those very "Papuan", and if the amers fell into the hands of the complexes of the day before yesterday, then you shouldn't make a tragedy out of it. Let them prepare for the war before last laughing .
      1. +1
        27 July 2019 16: 19
        What money my friend lol when did the Papuans pay us the currency? Everything was delivered to everyone for the sake of momentary alliances in the struggle for the cause of Lenin laughing . Well, sometimes they put it on credit. But all debts are forgiven. So that....
        1. D16
          -1
          27 July 2019 16: 57
          Yes, even dates. Who cares. They sold beautifully in our stores. Do you agree with the rest?
          1. 0
            27 July 2019 20: 05
            Partly yes
    3. -1
      27 July 2019 23: 01
      Quote: Sergey 777
      In short, we are fools again.

      If you are ABOUT YOURSELF, do not generalize, please! Something tells me that you (with all due respect) are no match for our Supreme in matters of strategic planning.
      1. -1
        28 July 2019 10: 30
        Well, let's see where in the end we will come with our supreme. Then we will draw conclusions ...
    4. 0
      30 July 2019 07: 25
      Well, about the S-300 and so on, until you look at the S-300 you can’t understand what kind of missiles are, but there are a lot of denominations, Veshki, Nki, Mki, and each branch has a bunch of mods and everything is different in terms of performance and weight, the only thing that unites them all is a guidance system, very unique, by the way at the expense of the patriot, we have nothing to do with it. because the most perfect petriot block 3 in a mustache is an analogue of the S-300 with the H48 missile, and the trick is that the H48 is a product of the early 80's, now the question is, what do we need a petriot for?
  5. +3
    26 July 2019 20: 30
    Although it is widely believed among ordinary people that the MANPADS are extremely effective, it is highly exaggerated.

    If you approach this purely philistine, and judge the effectiveness of the fence by the number of torn pants, then yes, the average person is not right ... laughing

    In general, the author adjusts the facts to the necessary conclusions. American imitators of MANPADS are capable of depicting including MANPADS with laser beam control. Can an author catch at least one such Soviet / Russian complex?
    1. D16
      +3
      26 July 2019 22: 08
      If you approach this purely philistine, and judge the effectiveness of the fence by the number of torn pants, then yes, the average man is wrong ... laughing

      So yes, but the shots of burning the Jordanian F-16 pilot alive and Major Filippov’s self-disruption make an indelible impression on the townsfolk.
      1. +1
        26 July 2019 23: 06
        Quote: D16
        make an indelible impression on the inhabitants.

        Only for the townsfolk?
        You can, of course, tell as many tales as you like about "low efficiency" But there is a huge difference between the situations "a pilot in the absence of MANPADS from the enemy" and "a pilot in the conditions of possible use of MANPADS".

        By the way, in the article about the simulator "MAST" indicate that. that these systems can be used in a combat situation ... Apparently. Americans don't believe in amputated pilots. And it is believed that even an imitation of the launch of MANPADS will lead to a disruption of the strike.
        1. +2
          27 July 2019 01: 33
          Quote: Spade
          Apparently. Americans don’t believe in pilots with amputated fear. And it is believed that even an imitation launch of MANPADS will lead to a disruption of the strike.
          Well, perhaps the experience of Vietnam taught them to do this, when not only launching an anti-aircraft missile, but irradiating the aircraft with a locator of the SNR led to the disruption of the mission.
          1. 0
            27 July 2019 07: 53
            Quote: Amurets
            Well, perhaps the experience of Vietnam taught them to do this, when not only launching an anti-aircraft missile, but irradiating the aircraft with a locator of the SNR led to the disruption of the mission.

            This is natural. At the same time, it is hardly possible to try to attack the target and apply protective measures against an attacking rocket.
            1. -1
              27 July 2019 23: 06
              Quote: Spade
              At the same time, it is hardly possible to try to attack the target and apply protective measures against an attacking rocket.

              You will not believe - not only possible, even more so - the development of striking at a ground (surface) target under conditions of strong air defense counteraction is the main element of an air-borne warning system!
              1. 0
                28 July 2019 07: 55
                Quote: Igor Aviator
                You will not believe - not only possible, even more so - the development of striking at a ground (surface) target under conditions of strong air defense counteraction is the main element of an air-borne warning system!

                Well, why not believe it? I believe.
                But you will not argue that the presence or absence of the opposing MANPADS does not matter because they are supposedly ineffective.
        2. D16
          0
          27 July 2019 07: 51
          Only for the townsfolk?

          Naturally. Professionals draw conclusions and are not substituted.
          Apparently. Americans don’t believe in pilots with amputated fear. And it is believed that even an imitation launch of MANPADS will lead to a disruption of the strike.

          A rather sophisticated method of suicide. What a joy. And the enemy does not harm, and substitute a blow. wassat
          1. 0
            27 July 2019 07: 57
            Quote: D16
            A rather sophisticated method of suicide. What a joy. And the enemy does not harm, and substitute a blow. wassat

            Does a heroic pilot give a damn about the threat of a missile missile, give a damn about his combat mission, and start a personal vendetta against the fighter who used the simulator?
            1. D16
              0
              27 July 2019 17: 04
              It may not give a damn, it all depends on the circumstances and tasks. But the coordinates will be transmitted in any way, so that the landscape is changed in the area. laughing
        3. +2
          27 July 2019 16: 22
          I agree. For example, the Afghan sky before stingers and after these are two big differences
          1. 0
            30 July 2019 07: 54
            the Afghan sky before the stingers and after ... there was no difference, crying over the stinger was greatly exaggerated, the most important contribution to the downing of aviation in Afghanistan was played by the Chinese analogs of the Strela-2M MANPADS plus a certain amount of the RBS-70 MANPADS and Blapap (although they were highly effective but difficult to deploy, as well as tethered guidance, as a rule, spirits threw them after an attack), the merit of the stinger is only in one, the GSN of the stinger works in two IR and UV ranges, when approaching the target, the UV range does not notice IR traps, only when studying sample on Soviet aircraft with Lipa’s electronic jamming system began to appear, and the stinger’s benefits were nullified,
    2. +2
      27 July 2019 02: 29
      Quote: Spade
      In general, the author customizes the facts under the necessary conclusions.

      Lopatov, after such a statement, will you of course be able to give statistics of American aircraft and helicopters shot down over the past 30 years using MANPADS? And also the ratio between the number of starts and the number of targets hit? If not, is it worth doing demagogy? No.
      Quote: Spade
      American MANPADS imitators are capable of portraying laser-guided MANPADS, among other things.

      Why do you write this? In what place in the publication is it said? According to the data published in open sources, the MANPADS simulator measures the distance and seizes the target with an analogue of the IC GOS, and also records it on video. On the basis of what, afterwards, an assessment is made, how successfully the pilot carried out evasion and applied countermeasures.
      Quote: Spade
      Can the author nagvat at least one such Soviet / Russian complex?

      I can only pick up the promising "Pine". But do you sincerely believe that the Americans are practicing countering only the threats emanating from our complexes?
      1. 0
        27 July 2019 07: 47
        Quote: Bongo
        Lopatov, after such a statement, you can of course bring statistics of American planes and helicopters shot down over the past 30 years using MANPADS?

        Column attacking her plane. MANPADS launch, miss. The plane has an attack failure. It goes to the second run. Start MANPADS, again the failure of the attack. The plane flies away, suddenly for the third time it’s out of luck.
        Result - a raid on the column is prevented. However, following strange criteria, yours and the Professor's, the effectiveness of MANPADS despite the fully completed task is zero. Oops?

        I personally already hinted to you - MANPADS is not a means of destroying aircraft, it is a means of protection from aircraft

        Quote: Bongo
        Why are you writing this? Where does the publication say this?

        In the title, damn it. Do not read your own publications?

        Quote: Bongo
        According to the data published in open sources, the MANPADS simulator measures the range and captures the target with an analogue of the infrared seeker, as well as records on video.

        Dear, next time use the Google translation, it will give you more information laughing laughing laughing
        Rangefinder-designator from "Vetronics" is intended specifically to imitate complexes such as "Starstrika" or RBS-70. Imitation of a "launch" in the optical, IR and UV ranges, the "Smokie SAM" equipment is in fact the very "surrogate rocket" that just simulates a dust-smoke plume upon launch.
        Well, and recording everything that happens for later analysis. And no "range measurement", because "What domestic MANPADS has a rangefinder?" (C) laughing laughing laughing A much more expensive target designator is used precisely because it is capable of highlighting a target for a long time, simulating the operation of a laser-beam control system

        Quote: Bongo
        I can only pick up the promising "Pine". But do you sincerely believe that the Americans are practicing countering only the threats emanating from our complexes?

        Once again, you don't even read the titles of your articles? It looks like you are the one who truly believes.

        And I know that, for example, Iran should still have RBS-70. And they very successfully used them from ambushes against Iraqi aircraft. Probably. due to the fact that then there was no Internet, which was to prove their inefficiency.
        1. -3
          27 July 2019 08: 18
          Quote: Spade
          I personally already hinted to you - MANPADS is not a means of destroying aircraft, it is a means of protection from aircraft

          Lopatov, my husband explicitly asked you a specific question. If you are not able to answer it, what is verbiage?
          Quote: Spade
          Dear, next time use the Google translation, it will give you more information

          Do you think that it’s better than the author to understand the topic? No. How many here are able to create such an article in two evenings. Try to find at least one simulator on Google maps.
          Nobody has accused Seryozha of fantasizing yet. The last time you were offered a dispute on a bottle of viskar, you jumped.
          Quote: Spade
          Once again, you don't even read the titles of your articles? It looks like you are the one who truly believes.

          What is the connection between the title of the article and your reasoning? Previously, such intolerance and categorization was not observed for you. Shovels, what's wrong with you, is it really age?
          Quote: Spade
          But I know that, for example, Iran should still have RBS-70. And they very successfully used them from ambushes against Iraqi aircraft. Probably. due to the fact that then there was no Internet, which was to prove their inefficiency

          And how many Iran has them, and please share the results? It will probably be interesting to everyone here. In general, as I understand it, we are talking about different guidance systems.
          1. 0
            27 July 2019 08: 34
            Quote: zyablik.olga
            Lopatov, my husband explicitly asked you a specific question.

            So do I. This is how a Soviet MANPADS with a laser-beam will dig up, let's deal with the rest of the nonsense with "efficiency".


            Quote: zyablik.olga
            Nobody has accused Seryozha of fantasizing yet.

            But he himself very often accuses other authors of "fantasizing" and superficiality. "One who lives in a glass house should not throw stones at others." (C)

            Quote: zyablik.olga
            The last time you were offered a dispute on a bottle of viskar, you jumped.

            Naturally. Some were so inadequate from their own FAQ that I had to find the information myself. It was not particularly difficult. laughing So, if I owed anyone "whiskar", then myself laughing

            Quote: zyablik.olga
            What is the connection between the title of the article and your reasoning?

            Straight. Explain for the "whiskey"? Well, okay ... I'm not asking for alcohol. the USSR and Russia do not have laser-beam MANPADS. The closest analogue is the Kornet with the 9M133FM-3 rocket. Which can work on air targets thanks to the presence of a proximity fuse. True, the rocket's speed is too low, subsonic.

            Quote: zyablik.olga
            And how many Iran have

            Open The Military Balance, read.
            1. +1
              27 July 2019 16: 10
              Quote: Spade
              So do I. This is how a Soviet MANPADS with a laser-beam will dig up, let's deal with the rest of the nonsense with "efficiency".

              Excuse me, but where is the laser beam method when it comes to imitators MANPADS.



              Based on the above, it certainly will not make it difficult for you to explain to everyone here what these simulators are different from, and what role does the laser rangefinder play in the learning process?
              1. +1
                27 July 2019 16: 31
                Quote: Bongo
                Based on the above, it certainly will not make it difficult for you to explain to everyone here what these simulators are different from, and what role does the laser rangefinder play in the learning process?

                You just have a cheap Morpehov version. And the rest use normal

                The five-eyed device at the operator’s head is a laser rangefinder-target designator. With the ability to record for further analysis.
                1. +1
                  27 July 2019 16: 37
                  Quote: Spade
                  The five-eyed device at the head of the operator is a laser rangefinder-aiming indicator. With the ability to stock up for later analysis.

                  That's it! Yes so where is the laser beam guidance method? what
                  1. +1
                    27 July 2019 16: 39
                    Quote: Bongo
                    so where does the laser-beam pointing method?

                    This is elementary.
                    Laser illumination system LCD simulates the work of laser-beam. acting on the receivers of the laser radiation of the aircraft

                    I kind of already wrote this.
                    1. +1
                      27 July 2019 16: 42
                      Quote: Spade
                      Laser illumination system LCD simulates the work of laser-beam. acting on the receivers of the laser radiation of the aircraft

                      So it is, the basics. I do not understand just what you mentioned to the laser-beam system in relation to our MANPADS?
                      1. +1
                        27 July 2019 17: 28
                        Quote: Bongo
                        I just don’t understand what you mentioned the laser beam system in relation to our MANPADS?

                        You mentioned that.
                        The third time I ask, what are you. Forgot what your article is called?
                      2. -1
                        28 July 2019 03: 16
                        Quote: Spade
                        You mentioned that.

                        Is this who wrote:
                        Quote: Spade
                        MANPADS simulators are capable of depicting, among other things, laser-controlled MANPADS. Can an author catch at least one such Soviet / Russian complex?

                        Do you have memory lapses?
                        Quote: Spade
                        The third time I ask, what are you. Forgot what your article is called?

                        What is the connection between the name and the laser-guided missiles you mentioned out of place?
                      3. -1
                        28 July 2019 07: 52
                        Quote: zyablik.olga
                        What is the connection between the name and the laser-guided missiles you mentioned out of place?

                        I explain it very simply, I hope that I will not do this anymore. For tired.
                        Did you talk about "specific questions" there? I asked this. Three times. I never received an answer.

                        So, I pointed out that the facts fit the idea. Specifically, with simulators of MANPADS. Which allow you to train to counter any (!!!!!) MANPADS. Not only. as stated in the article, "Soviet and Russian production", which are supposedly "the main threat"
                        They simulate the launch of MANPADS in the visible, IR and UV range. Is this all characteristic only for Russian / Soviet MANPADS? No
                        Imitate a dusty plume. Is all this characteristic only for Russian / Soviet MANPADS? No
                        If necessary, imitate the operation of the laser-beam control system. Is all this characteristic only for Russian / Soviet MANPADS? No. rather, on the contrary, this is not typical for Russian / Soviet MANPADS.
                        To simulate the fight against MANPADS installations, LISP elements are put on the operator. Can only Russian / Soviet MANPADS operators be killed or injured? No

                        I hope no more silly questions will appear. As well as the statements that the real capabilities of the MANPADS simulator I mentioned "out of place"
                      4. +1
                        28 July 2019 08: 19
                        Quote: Spade
                        Specifically, with simulators of MANPADS. Which allow you to train to counter any (!!!!!) MANPADS. Not only. as stated in the article, "Soviet and Russian production", which are supposedly "the main threat"

                        Lopatov, it is very difficult to communicate with you lately. Is not the Soviet and Russian MANPADS most common in the world?
                        Quote: Spade
                        Is this all characteristic only for Russian / Soviet MANPADS? Not. rather, on the contrary, for Russian / Soviet MANPADS this is not typical.

                        If you are trying to ascribe something to me, please quote verbatim. This is not the first time you mold your fantasies to me, and then when asked why you answer "Patamushta" wassat
                        Quote: Spade
                        I hope no more silly questions will appear. As well as the statements that the real capabilities of the MANPADS simulator I mentioned "out of place"

                        I also very much hope that in the future you will find it possible to write more balanced comments on my publications.
                      5. +1
                        28 July 2019 12: 29
                        Quote: Bongo
                        Lopatov, it’s been very difficult to communicate with you lately.

                        "And why us" (c) laughing laughing laughing

                        Quote: Bongo
                        Are not MANPADS of Soviet and Russian manufacture the most common in the world?

                        Honestly, not sure.
                        Well, at least if there is money, then they prefer to take something not Russian. Like the Serbs.

                        Quote: Bongo
                        I also very much hope that in the future you will find it possible to write more balanced comments on my publications.

                        Next time, trying to insult, do not forget about a possible response.
                        But it is, the lyrics.

                        Well, on the topic, in the West there is just a gigantic market for "matbaza" for training. You just need to visit the website of SAAB, one of the leaders in this segment, to choke on saliva. And they can train their servicemen for specific tasks.
                        Now it is more than confident that their pilots are learning to work against RBS-70, since these systems may be from Iran.
                      6. +2
                        28 July 2019 14: 42
                        Quote: Spade
                        Honestly, not sure.
                        Well, at least if you have money, they prefer to take something not Russian.

                        Today, Russian and Soviet-made MANPADS are the most common in the world.
                        Quote: Spade
                        Next time, trying to insult, do not forget about a possible response.

                        How did I try to insult you? That I consider you a professional in its the area, or the fact that doubted that you had to do with the capture and delivery of American equipment to Russia?
                        Quote: Spade
                        Now it is more than confident that their pilots are learning to work against RBS-70, since these systems may be from Iran.

                        That's about the presence of workable RBS-70 in Iran, I just doubt. Yes, and taking into account the presence of long-range ZRS Russian and its own production, it is not too important.
            2. 0
              28 July 2019 08: 40
              Quote: Spade
              Open The Military Balance, read.

              There they also write about the very ancient "Taygerkat". Do you believe that too?
              Olya, of course, consulted me about Swedish RBS-70. Personally, I have big doubts that the operational air defense systems of this type remained in Iran.
              1. +1
                28 July 2019 12: 32
                Quote: Bongo
                There they also write about the very ancient "Taygerkat". Do you believe that too?

                Why don't I believe in it? There is China, which well, just a great experience of preserving the combat effectiveness of ancient weapons systems.
                1. 0
                  28 July 2019 14: 16
                  Quote: Spade
                  Why don't I believe in it? There is China, which well, just a great experience of preserving the combat effectiveness of ancient weapons systems.

                  Can you imagine what kind of complex and its element base?
      2. D16
        0
        27 July 2019 07: 53
        I can only pick up the promising "Pine".

        How long has she become MANPADS?
      3. +1
        27 July 2019 12: 50
        Sergey, I also cited statistics from Iraq. This is without guerrilla warfare at the start of 2000's ..
        And the matter is not only in the downed ones (you are already just like the adon Sokolov).
        1. 0
          27 July 2019 16: 11
          Quote: sivuch
          Sergey, I also cited statistics from Iraq. This is without guerrilla warfare at the start of 2000's ..

          Igor, knowing you, I treat you with great respect and tremendous respect. hi But I would like to see the statistics of not only affected, but also launches.
          1. +2
            28 July 2019 09: 26
            I don’t have it smile . But even 0.15-0.2 is a very good performance, given the relative cheapness of missiles. By the way, squeezing aircraft to a height of 5 km and above is also a success.
            1. +1
              28 July 2019 09: 39
              Quote: sivuch
              And I do not have it smile. But even the 0.15-0.2 is a very good performance, given the relative cheapness of the missiles. By the way, squeezing aircraft to a height of 5km and higher is, after all, also a result.

              Igor, I once closely studied the Strela-2M and never denied the need for MANPADS, military air defense cannot be complete without portable systems. But I am opposed to considering MANPADS a superweapon. The efficiency of large complexes is still higher. Taking into account the development of high-precision weapons and new types of cluster munitions, the role of MANPADS will not grow. And by and large, we can only talk about this on the basis of data on the collision of technologically advanced opponents. Recently, we have been witnessing the "beating of babies", and no even the most advanced MANPADS will protect third countries from American air raids.
  6. -2
    26 July 2019 20: 36
    How scary to live, everything is gone, you have to give up. The Americans riveted imitators to work out countering the electronic stuffing of Soviet technology designed in the late 70s and entered service in the 80s. Apparently, they began to rivet after the shooting down of the "invisible" in the Yugoslav sky with old 60s. x years.
    Now I understand why the Americans have such a huge military budget, imitators rivet.


    In 2018, it became known about the purchase by the US military in Ukraine of the three-coordinate radar combat mode 36D6M1-1.


    I remember how one SU-34 back in Georgia in 2008 scored obstacles and destroyed such a radar. By the way, Saakashvili also drove him from Ukraine.
    1. +1
      27 July 2019 02: 31
      Quote: lopvlad
      Vaughn the Americans riveted imitators to work out counteraction to the electronic stuffing of Soviet technology designed in the late 70s and entered service in the 80s. Apparently, they began to rivet after the shooting down of the "invisible" in the Yugoslav sky with the old 60s.

      Have you read the article at all, or just looked at the pictures? SAM "Tor", "Buk", S-300P / V, S-400 - are they old?
      1. -2
        27 July 2019 06: 41
        Quote: Bongo
        SAM "Tor", "Buk", S-300P / V, S-400 - are they old?


        in order to start riveting a simulator of something, you need to have full access to something, and the Americans do not have access even to the export version of C-400.
        As for the other listed (SAM "Tor", "Buk") and S-300PT (it was this only version of 1975-1978 years of production that came to the United States thanks to Ukraine with the possibility of disassembling into screws), yes, this is old stuff that is either removed from service or at the stage withdrawals in Russia.
        1. +1
          27 July 2019 08: 01
          Quote: lopvlad
          in order to start riveting a simulator of something, you need to have full access to something, and the Americans do not have access even to the export version of C-400.

          Have you heard anything about radio intelligence?
          1. 0
            27 July 2019 23: 18
            Quote: zyablik.olga
            Have you heard anything about radio intelligence?

            Have you heard anything about the ranges of peaceful and wartime radiation?
            1. -1
              28 July 2019 03: 21
              Quote: Igor Aviator
              Have you heard anything about the ranges of peaceful and wartime radiation?

              A masterpiece! My husband laughed for a long time after reading this good
              The number of letter frequencies is finite, and they are in a certain range. It is more appropriate to speak here, not about "combat frequencies", but about modes. But taking into account the development of modern means of electronic intelligence, the deployment of the S-400 in the SAR and export deliveries, one must be a real "patriot" to consider that the "partners" are not at all familiar with the frequencies and operating modes of the S-400 equipment.
  7. +3
    26 July 2019 20: 55
    Quote: lopvlad
    How scary to live, everything is gone, you have to give up. The Americans riveted imitators to work out countering the electronic stuffing of Soviet technology designed in the late 70s and entered service in the 80s. Apparently, they began to rivet after the shooting down of the "invisible" in the Yugoslav sky with old 60s. x years.
    Now I understand why the Americans have such a huge military budget, imitators rivet.


    In 2018, it became known about the purchase by the US military in Ukraine of the three-coordinate radar combat mode 36D6M1-1.


    I remember how one SU-34 back in Georgia in 2008 scored obstacles and destroyed such a radar. By the way, Saakashvili also drove him from Ukraine.

    Not so far away ... as it was yesterday.
    1. -2
      26 July 2019 21: 07
      Quote: Sergey Averchenkov
      Not so far


      still far, given that at that time we had only 2 SU-34s for the entire army.
  8. +5
    26 July 2019 21: 35
    In Russia, the air defense system is not built from single complexes, but from their totality, including distribution by range, height and direction. Complexes cover each other in echelons. All this is controlled by an automated system that receives data, including from various specialized all-angle radars with increased noise immunity. And yes, all this in combination with fighter aircraft.
    Those. Americans, of course, can create a radar training model of the complex based on Soviet models and export units, but it is unlikely to recreate a model of a real Russian combined aerospace system. Their training can help pilots to overcome the Soviet air defense systems of third world countries. And even in overcoming the S-400 Turks. But only until the Turks buy something to cover the near zone and the inclusion of this something in a single ACS.
    1. -1
      26 July 2019 22: 38
      Quote: Berkut24
      And even in overcoming the S-400 Turks.


      they are just afraid that their "invisible" F-35 will be visible in the form of a thick dot on the S-400 radar, which is why such a furious screeching from Washington.
    2. +3
      27 July 2019 02: 33
      Quote: Berkut24
      Complexes cover each other in echelons. All this is controlled by an automated system that receives data, including from various specialized all-round radars, which have increased noise immunity. And yes, all this in combination with fighter aircraft.

      You described what happened in the USSR and should ideally be. In practice, except for the Moscow region, this is unfortunately not the case. No. Our air defense now has a pronounced focal character.
      1. -1
        27 July 2019 08: 59
        Quote: Bongo
        Our air defense now has a pronounced focal character.

        And does one contradict the other?
        1. 0
          27 July 2019 16: 14
          Quote: Spade
          And does one contradict the other?

          Lovatov, I don’t climb into the artillery, but if you started talking about air defense, please tell me what means the C-300PS regiment covers from low-altitude air attack weapons?
          1. -1
            27 July 2019 16: 36
            Quote: Bongo
            Lovatov, I’m not going into artillery, but since you started talking about air defense

            Then take the trouble to explain. why are you trying to assure that each "hearth" is covered by only one complex. Not their system.
            A striking example of a focal air defense base in Syria. Is it only "Armor" there? Or, at the very least, a system of air defense forces and means?
            1. 0
              27 July 2019 16: 46
              Quote: Spade
              Then take the trouble to explain. why are you trying to assure that each "hearth" is covered by only one complex. Not their system.
              A striking example of a focal air defense base in Syria. Is it only "Armor" there? Or, at the very least, a system of air defense forces and means?

              I treat you like a professional. But you can not try as you are a professional in everything No. Let's not talk about "striking examples", but about "typical examples. "I am asking you, what additional means does the S-300PS regiment (even if there will be S-300PM) carrying a database in the North or the Far East have?
              1. 0
                27 July 2019 17: 34
                Quote: Bongo
                Let's not talk about "shining examples"

                Let's talk about "striking examples". if in response to the statement "In Russia, the air defense system is not built from single complexes, but from their combination, including distribution by range, height and direction"raise an objection"Our air defense now has a pronounced focal character."

                One does not contradict one another absolutely. Rather, the opposite. the focal system is simply obliged to provide for the operation of the complex of air defense systems of different ranges, detection equipment and aviation.
                1. 0
                  28 July 2019 03: 25
                  Quote: Spade
                  One does not contradict one another absolutely. Rather, the opposite. the focal system is simply obliged to provide for the operation of the complex of air defense systems of different ranges, detection equipment and aviation.

                  Lopatov, did you happen to serve as deputy educational director? My husband asked you a direct question.
                  You are able directly, military to him
                  Quote: Bongo
                  I ask you, what additional funds does the S-300PS regiment (even if there will be S-300PS) have a database in the North or the Far East?

                  Are you able to answer directly?
                  1. +1
                    28 July 2019 07: 34
                    Quote: zyablik.olga
                    Lopatov, did you happen to serve as deputy educational director?

                    I performed including his duties. Since the state in the battery, he was absent. For I served, not listened to the radio, and the battery was deployed. therefore, it was necessary to work with personnel constantly.
                    Quote: zyablik.olga
                    My husband asked you a direct question.

                    ... absolutely irrelevant to the discussion.
                    What is the relation of the OShS regiment C-300 to the imaginary opposition of the integrated air defense system to the focal nature of the air defense?
                    For you personally, the essence of the problem. The opponent said "she's wet". Your husband objected, "no, it's green." And now you are trying to chat it up for a couple Including asking wise questions "can you answer a specific question, which vegetables are green?"

                    Quote: zyablik.olga
                    Are you able to answer directly?

                    To allow the conversation to be diverted away from that. what did he blur out? Are these your "new methods of dispute"?
                    As well as your urgent and easily traceable desire to translate everything into personalities and turn it into a srach, during which it will be possible to easily "defeat" your opponent with a complaint.
                    Do not wait.

                    And yet, you asked if I was a deputy for educational work, as if there was something embarrassing in it, such as being a prostitute. Cut it on your nose: anyone who really worked with the staff will tell you how important and necessary this position is. and how difficult without such a substitute. It’s difficult on the couch, in real service
                    1. 0
                      28 July 2019 08: 23
                      Quote: Spade
                      I performed including his duties.

                      Not surprised
                      Quote: Spade
                      What is the relation of the OShS regiment C-300 to the imaginary opposition of the integrated air defense system to the focal nature of the air defense?

                      Who wrote this?
                      Quote: Spade
                      In Russia, an air defense system is not built from single complexes, but from their totality, including the distribution by range, height and direction "

                      What set is there around the C-300PS regiment of the three-divisional personnel protecting Khabarovsk?
                      1. +1
                        28 July 2019 12: 48
                        Quote: Bongo
                        Not surprised

                        Everything is as it should be. starting with classes on the UCP and ending with wiping snot due to the abandoned girl. And he also had to steer the company farm for the foreman, because normal ensign appeared only during the war, for the technician, because he was also absent from the state, for three platoons. because in these positions jackets. And the Swiss and the reaper.
                        So shut up about zampolitov. for a couple. You do not even understand close. as far as they are needed.

                        Quote: Bongo
                        What set is there around the C-300PS regiment of the three-divisional personnel protecting Khabarovsk?

                        This is not my quote.
                        Again. Your opponent stated. that Russia has an integrated air defense system. You objected that it is focal. One absolutely does not contradict the other.

                        And the issue of the OSH has nothing to do with the subject under discussion. Therefore, we mark it as given in order to divert the discussion from its essence
                      2. +1
                        28 July 2019 14: 23
                        Quote: Spade
                        So shut up about zampolitov. for a couple. You do not even understand close. as far as they are needed.

                        Lopatov, do you wonder where Olya and I met? We are not on the parade ground, and you are not our boss, so we shouldn’t stop our mouths. No.
                        Quote: Spade
                        Again. Your opponent has stated. that Russia has an integrated air defense system.

                        Quote: Berkut24
                        In Russia, the air defense system is not built from single complexes, but from their combination, including distribution by range, height and direction. Complexes cover each other in echelons

                        So it is not clear to me how the focal defense works based on C-300P, which set of complexes includes the distribution in range, height and direction? On the example of the Far East please?
      2. +2
        27 July 2019 17: 34
        It is not focal, but object in nature. These are different things. Not the territory is defended at 100% - we will go bankrupt to cover the entire territory of the country with a continuous field of destruction (and this was not possible under the USSR, especially in view of the shorter range of destruction of those air defense systems), but critical objects and the border. What I wrote as you said for the USSR exists now, but in a different form, taking into account the increased range of destruction, the emergence of new means of detection, joining forces and means that used to work separately in the structure of VKS and new capabilities of computing systems and systems data transmission.
        1. -1
          28 July 2019 03: 27
          Quote: Berkut24
          What I wrote as you said for the USSR exists now, but in a different form, taking into account the increased range of destruction, the emergence of new means of detection, joining forces and means that used to work separately in the structure of VKS and new capabilities of computing systems and systems data transmission.

          What you described is true for the Moscow Region and partly the Leningrad Region.
        2. +1
          28 July 2019 09: 30
          Those. Do you directly insist that all the S-400 regiments put into service and the S-300 and Pantsir regiments assigned to them operate separately throughout the country and are in no way connected with each other?
          1. +1
            28 July 2019 09: 50
            Quote: Berkut24
            Those. Do you directly insist that all the S-400 regiments put into service and the S-300 and Pantsir regiments assigned to them operate separately throughout the country and are in no way connected with each other?

            Let's not confuse a unified management system and cover. No. "Carapaces" S-300P do not protect, but only S-400, and even then not everywhere. As for the protection of the S-300P from air attack weapons operating at low altitude, then ancient DShKM and MANPADS are intended for this, which in most cases no one in the division knows how to use.
            1. +1
              28 July 2019 12: 01
              Let's still talk in the framework of the videoconferencing. Air defense is only part of the solution. Any sticking of air defense in the same Omsk is not an argument for me, because such objects and cities:
              1) are not critical strategic objects neither for us nor for a potential adversary
              2) they are located deep enough in the rear (in this case, while Kazakhstan has its own air defense and in fact serves as a buffer, we have an agreement with Kazakhstan).
              As for the Far East, you again forget both about aviation and about the fact that there is both shipboard defense and combined-arms aviation there.
              And a little remark in pursuit. What is in Europe, that in the USA, the air defense system in the state of a permanent database is at best only present around the perimeter. In the north of the United States, the Pentagon generally counts mainly on Canada, and from the south, US defense is unable to fully control the border with Mexico. Tell me how Denver, Memphis or, say, Minneapolis hide behind. For the United States, these are not critical economic or defense facilities; for us, these goals are not worthy of attention.
              1. +1
                28 July 2019 12: 20
                Quote: Berkut24
                Let's still talk in the framework of the videoconferencing. Air defense is only part of the solution. Any sticking of air defense in the same Omsk is not an argument for me, because such objects and cities:

                Well, of course, in Soviet times there were not "stubs", but now there are "stubs". negative
                Quote: Berkut24
                are deep enough in the rear (in this case, while Kazakhstan has its air defense and in fact serves as a buffer, and with Kazakhstan we have an agreement).

                Kazakhstan cannot even protect itself from massive air strikes.
                Quote: Berkut24
                As for the Far East, you again forget both about aviation and about the fact that there is both shipboard defense and combined-arms aviation there.

                Yes you what? Are you telling me about the state of air defense in the Far East? Let's compare in detail our fighter aircraft in this area with the forces of neighboring states? About the military air defense and air defense of the PF, I, too, like the rest, I guess, very interesting? Well, if not difficult, long-range places and forces deployed in the region?
                Quote: Berkut24
                And a little remark in pursuit. What is in Europe, that in the USA, the air defense system in the state of a permanent database is at best only present around the perimeter. In the north of the United States, the Pentagon generally counts mainly on Canada, and from the south, US defense is unable to fully control the border with Mexico. Tell me how Denver, Memphis or, say, Minneapolis hide behind. For the United States, these are not critical economic or defense facilities; for us, these goals are not worthy of attention.

                All the same, do not compare warm with soft No. You will not argue that the United States is threatened by our carrier-based aircraft and front-line aviation? With regards to the control of US airspace, I assure you it is not bad.
                1. +1
                  28 July 2019 13: 19
                  Well, of course, in Soviet times there were not "stubs", but now there are "stubs"

                  I don’t need to tell about air defense in Soviet times. I just started serving in those days. There was a perimeter, there were several cities covered and that’s it. When Rust flew, it was enough for him to go through the border. Further to Moscow there was a void.
                  Kazakhstan cannot even protect itself from massive air strikes.

                  Kazakhstan is a rather large territory and allows detecting targets in advance. And, accordingly, raise aviation. In the south of Kazakhstan there are no NATO bases, which may threaten to surrender now. All its underbelly are the CIS countries and China. Look carefully at the map.
                  You will not undertake to assert that the territory of the United States is threatened by our carrier-based aircraft and front-line aviation?

                  I'll take it, because This is a one-sided look. Tu-160, Tu-95 and part of the submarines have cruise missiles onboard, which were dropped long before the air defense zone. Actually, we also need to expect the first strike of the KR. This is evidenced by the entire experience of recent conflicts. Air defense will be carried out precisely by the Kyrgyz Republic. And then only aviation remains as the last hope.
                  1. +2
                    28 July 2019 14: 35
                    Quote: Berkut24
                    That's about the air defense in Soviet times, I do not need to tell. I just began to serve in those times. There was a perimeter, several cities were covered and that's it.

                    Really, can you just poorly informed? In the USSR, all regional, regional and industrial centers, areas of deployment of ICBMs, airfields, ports, nuclear power plants and hydropower stations were covered without fail.
                    Quote: Berkut24
                    When Rust flew, it was enough for him to pass the border. Further to Moscow there was a void.
                    This is a completely different story. No.
                    Quote: Berkut24
                    Kazakhstan is a fairly large area and allows you to target in advance. And, accordingly, to raise aviation.

                    Read at your leisure:
                    The state of the air defense system of the countries - parties to the Treaty on Collective Security
                    https://topwar.ru/140279-sostoyanie-sistemy-protivovozdushnoy-oborony-stran-uchastnikov-dogovora-o-kollektivnoy-bezopasnosti-chast-2.html
                    Quote: Berkut24
                    I will, because This is a one-sided look. Tu-160, Tu-95 and part of the submarines have onboard cruise missiles dropped long before the air defense system.

                    North America Air Defense System
                    https://topwar.ru/105796-sistema-pvo-severnoy-ameriki-chast-5.html
                    at the end a link to the early parts
                    As of the air defense of the Far East
                    https://topwar.ru/138464-proshloe-i-nastoyaschee-11-y-krasnoznamennoy-armii-vozdushno-kosmicheskih-sil-smogut-li-vks-rossii-zaschitit-nash-dalniy-vostok-chast-2.html
      3. 0
        27 July 2019 23: 25
        Quote: Bongo
        Our air defense now has a pronounced focal character.

        Why so "substitute"? Either you are lying or you are "mistaken" lol Not only is the entire territory of the Russian Federation covered united field, and the entire air defense is combined under the control of a single ACS. You are "confusing" air defense and missile defense. They abandoned focal air defense long ago, and restored a single air defense (after the collapse of the 90s), if my memory serves me right, in 2014.
        1. 0
          28 July 2019 09: 34
          Why so "substitute"?

          I will add - a unified radar field. In terms of air defense weapons, there are territories that are not closed, but these territories are covered by aviation within the framework of the same unified control system. I generally do not understand obstinacy on "focus". Opponents do not want to perceive the Aerospace Forces as a single defense system at all.
  9. +2
    26 July 2019 21: 38
    Quote: lopvlad
    Quote: Sergey Averchenkov
    Not so far


    still far, given that at that time we had only 2 SU-34s for the entire army.

    Yes, it was.
  10. +1
    26 July 2019 22: 30
    Our only real answer and protection against anything and everything is a shocking vigorous club!
    as long as it is there, as long as it is inevitable, as long as there is a chance to get it in return, no one is a bunch --- it really bites in our direction!
    Yes, equip a potential enemy with weapons, which in which case can become an insurmountable problem STUPID !!! but Schaub clearly and frankly, this is not observed .... and then business and commerce, nothing more.
    1. -1
      26 July 2019 22: 51
      Quote: rocket757
      Our only real answer and protection against anything and everything is a shocking vigorous club!


      so that the "nuclear club" is not destroyed at the start and in the missile silos, but is guaranteed to reach the addressee, and a strong army with deeply echeloned air defense and missile defense is needed.

      Arming a potential adversary with weapons, which in case of what could become an insurmountable problem


      empires have no constant opponents or allies. The USSR experience taught us a lot when allies instantly become opponents. Therefore, for export only truncated at the level of software and hardware, it is possible that with hardware tabs for remote shutdown.
      1. 0
        26 July 2019 23: 49
        Quote: lopvlad
        so that the "nuclear club" is not destroyed at the start and in the missile silos, but is guaranteed to reach the addressee and is needed

        In the foreseeable future, there are no real and effective ways to PREVENT our vigorous answer!
        Only betrayal at such a level that it is impossible to imagine that.
        Quote: lopvlad
        The experience of the USSR taught us a lot when allies instantly become adversaries.

        But let’s see it, see and EVALUATE, if possible!
        1. 0
          27 July 2019 07: 01
          Quote: rocket757
          In the foreseeable future, there are no real and effective ways to PREVENT our vigorous answer!


          The development of weapons is proceeding at a tremendous pace + the approach of NATO infrastructure to our borders makes us more alert. It's good that our Defense Ministry has a clear understanding of this and therefore nuclear missiles are being replaced by those that have a much shorter active flight segment (replacement with YARS ) + development and adoption of the Sarmat missile. The same missile does not have to break through the American missile defense fence in Europe to retaliate against the United States.
          1. 0
            27 July 2019 09: 26
            Quote: lopvlad
            It’s good that our MO has a clear understanding of this and that’s why nuclear missiles are being replaced by those that have

            Everything is developing. Now we are in the process of comprehensive saturation with shock systems and the means of supporting, protecting them. Shield and sword!
            Apparently, the main enemy does not expect to achieve precisely a military advantage in this direction. Understand that the current technical level does not allow to achieve a one-sided advantage!
            For now, it will be difficult to guess later.
            All the same, no one will go to mutual extermination, dumb are such evil.
  11. +3
    27 July 2019 02: 25
    The Americans contemptuously called V-750V missiles flying "telegraph poles", but they were forced to spend considerable forces and money on counteracting air defense systems: to develop tactics of evasion, devote suppression strike groups and equip their aircraft with active jamming stations.
    But it was precisely the fight against this air defense system that the development of the Shrike anti-radar missiles began, the first interference appeared on the radio fuses channel, and a special unit for the fight against air defense "Wild Laski".
    1. +2
      27 July 2019 02: 40
      Quote: Amurets
      But it was precisely the fight against this air defense system that the development of the Shrike anti-radar missiles began, the first interference appeared on the radio fuses channel, and a special unit for the fight against air defense "Wild Laski".

      Nikolai, good morning!
      Now all pilots are taught to fight air defense, all the more so that modern means of jamming and PRR do not require specially prepared aircraft.
      1. +2
        27 July 2019 02: 46
        Quote: Bongo
        Now all pilots are taught to fight air defense, all the more so that modern means of jamming and PRR do not require specially prepared aircraft.
        Hello, Sergey. The road starts from the beginning, with which the fight with the new at that time, air defense weapons was supposed to begin. And so the article is interesting.
  12. kig
    +4
    27 July 2019 02: 44
    I wonder what our pilots do at the exercises? Court of press releases, all tasks are always performed and even over-fulfilled.
    1. +3
      27 July 2019 02: 48
      Quote: kig
      I wonder what our pilots do at the exercises? Court of press releases, all tasks are always performed and even over-fulfilled.

      Yes, about the same, but the Americans pay more attention to the fight against anti-aircraft complexes. We have a main focus on interception, air combat and strikes on the ground unmanaged means of destruction.
      1. -2
        27 July 2019 07: 09
        Quote: Bongo
        and striking the ground with unguided weapons.


        this was during the USSR, when the stakes were a massive defeat of the enemy by blanks. Russia is just betting on guided munitions (guided missiles for hail and tornadoes, guided artillery ammunition, guided missiles for helicopters).
        1. 0
          27 July 2019 08: 24
          Quote: lopvlad
          this was during the USSR, when the stakes were a massive defeat of the enemy by blanks. Russia is just betting on guided munitions (guided missiles for hail and tornadoes, guided artillery ammunition, guided missiles for helicopters).

          Do I understand correctly, you undertake to assert that in terms of nomenclature and the number of guided munitions available in the troops, we surpass the US Air Force?
          1. -1
            27 July 2019 08: 38
            Quote: lopvlad
            Russia is once again relying on guided ammunition (guided missiles for hail and tornadoes, guided artillery ammunition, guided missiles for helicopters).

            Quote: zyablik.olga
            Do I understand correctly, you undertake to assert that in terms of nomenclature and the number of guided munitions available in the troops, we surpass the US Air Force?

            And what does one have to do with another ?????
            laughing

            If someone says to you "I prefer to go to work in my own car" you will ask "how many of them do you have in your garage"?
            And if he has less than ten cars, does he really prefer public transport? wassat
          2. -1
            27 July 2019 10: 07
            Quote: zyablik.olga
            you undertake to assert that in terms of nomenclature and the number of guided munitions available in the troops, we surpass the US Air Force?


            what have the nomenclature? You wrote that the main focus of modern Russia makes
            Quote: Bongo
            uncontrolled means of destruction.
            and their uncontrolled use, but I objected that this is not so.
            1. 0
              27 July 2019 16: 17
              Quote: lopvlad
              what have the nomenclature? You wrote that the main focus of modern Russia makes

              Well, let's compare what is the proportion between unguided and controlled weapons used in the first and second Chechen, in conflict with Georgia and in Syria?
              And tell me what controlled weapon on the ground in reality can use Su-27SK and Su-35С?
              1. -2
                27 July 2019 23: 34
                Quote: Bongo
                what guided weapons on the ground in reality can the Su-27SK and Su-35S use?

                And, let me ask you, for what purpose are you interested in? (with) fool Do not worry, it’s exactly that which will contribute to the speedy meeting of the enemy with the ancestors!
                1. +1
                  28 July 2019 03: 30
                  Quote: Igor Aviator
                  And, let me ask you, for what purpose are you interested in?

                  You might think you know. No.
                  For example, I am aware of what weapons the Su-27 troops can work on the ground, and what preparations are being made for this. And you?
  13. sen
    +3
    27 July 2019 05: 59
    Americans use simulators to train their pilots. Do we have something like that?
  14. +1
    27 July 2019 16: 01
    Quote: Spade
    Are you sure that I am obliged to report the whole truth to you?
    Tin!

    And this is how it burns. Did you get the Hero of Russia Lopatov, like Serdyukov, by a closed decree, was appropriated? I shed a tear when I introduced how the AN / MPQ-53 radar from Turkey delivered tow trucks of its artillery battery through Georgia to Khankala. good
    1. -3
      27 July 2019 23: 38
      Quote: Bongo
      And so they scorch

      So, how you slept today - you still have to manage! Bad work! Your management needs to think about your disqualification!
  15. +3
    27 July 2019 16: 30
    Great article, thanks! As always, an interesting selection of photos.
    hi
    “The question was also asked when was the last time an enemy plane was shot down in close air combat from an aircraft cannon” - by the way, an interesting question! The last confirmed cases seem to be from the Falklands War. Unconfirmed - war in Yugoslavia.
  16. +1
    28 July 2019 09: 41
    As you know, the Soviet leadership, fearing the entry into China of modern air defense systems, refrained from supplying the latest models of air defense systems to Vietnam. On the contrary, our “Arab friends” fighting the “Israeli military” received the most modern weapons at that time.
    ----------------------------------------------
    This is, let's say, inaccurate. Yes, there was a more modern technique than in Vietnam (and the opposite would be better), but far from the most modern
    1. -1
      28 July 2019 09: 56
      Quote: sivuch
      This is, let's say, inaccurate. Yes, there was a more modern technique than in Vietnam (and the opposite would be better), but far from the most modern

      Igor, we have already discussed this. But still, tell me that the USSR did not deliver to the Arabs by the 1973 year (except for the automated control systems and state identification systems), as was the case with the Soviet air defense?
      1. +3
        28 July 2019 10: 09
        If, from memory - С-200, Circles, Strela-1, П-40, and the same ASURKs had only 4 pieces. П-37 and П-18, of course, too, but they appeared at the beginning of 70-х. Of course, there were no air defense fighters, like the Su-15, but, I think, they would not do them anyway.
        1. 0
          28 July 2019 10: 24
          Quote: sivuch
          If, from memory - С-200, Circles, Strela-1, П-40, and the same ASURKs had only 4 pieces. П-37 and П-18, of course, too, but they appeared at the beginning of 70-х. Of course, there were no air defense fighters, like the Su-15, but, I think, they would not do them anyway.

          The S-200 was just being mastered in 1973. "Kroogi" did not supply. "Arrow-1" was later delivered, although it is far from a masterpiece. As for the Su-15, they were in Egypt for a short time, Soviet pilots flew them, but did not participate in the battles. P-37 and P-18 were delivered to the Arabs after the Yom Kippur war.
          1. +2
            28 July 2019 10: 29
            Sergey, have you noticed that we already have a dialogue? smile
            And, by the way, yes - usually the sequence was just that - the Arabs were piled in, after which they were given something more modern. But the Soviet leadership after the P-12 and P-35 can be understood - these Arabs will put something, so the Jews soprut
            1. -1
              28 July 2019 10: 33
              Quote: sivuch
              Sergey, have you noticed that we already have a dialogue?

              Of course! drinks
              Quote: sivuch
              And, by the way, yes - usually the sequence was just that - the Arabs were piled in, after which they were given something more modern. But the Soviet leadership after the P-12 and P-35 can be understood - these Arabs will put something, so the Jews soprut

              In my opinion, the most unpleasant surprise for Israel in 1973 was the "Squares", and partly the S-125.
  17. The comment was deleted.
  18. -2
    28 July 2019 14: 51
    Quote: atalef
    and what is your belief based on, that if they don’t say, don’t write, there was no way to seize, buy, etc., then it is still there and is being studied

    Before Putin spoke of Vanguard, Relight, Poseidon, was he spoken about somewhere? But still they built it.
    1. -1
      29 July 2019 16: 44
      Of course they said, and on this resource, this is new for urapatriots, since they say what to think and what to talk about on the first and second channels, and for specialists promising complexes become known even before the outline design was defended))
  19. -2
    29 July 2019 13: 45
    Quote: Nikolay87
    Quote: atalef
    and what is your belief based on, that if they don’t say, don’t write, there was no way to seize, buy, etc., then it is still there and is being studied

    Before Putin spoke of Vanguard, Relight, Poseidon, was he spoken about somewhere? But still they built it.

    What, they just minus the comment, but did not even leave an explanation "why". We draw the conclusion that it is not we who are jingoistic patriots, it is you who are "fsёpropalschiki"
  20. 0
    29 July 2019 17: 02
    Quote: telobezumnoe
    Of course they said, and on this resource, this is new for urapatriots, since they say what to think and what to talk about on the first and second channels, and for specialists promising complexes become known even before the outline design was defended))

    I don’t even know whether to be glad that secret objects become public knowledge before the commander-in-chief announces them, or because our "specialists" (as I understand these are people directly or indirectly connected with the production of the complexes themselves) will learn, what needs to be drawn (that same sketch) before they started drawing. I will be glad for both achievements. If this is the case with us, then the plagiarism of our military technologies by Western countries would not worry me in the first place
    But in fairness, I can see references to early references to the above complexes. Thanks in advance.
    1. 0
      30 July 2019 00: 09
      here in the comments, data about an autonomous robotic torpedo surfaced for a long time, there were rumors that this concept was developed by Sakharov, which could be under water for years, like retaliation here is an example article and Putin’s speeches https://topwar.ru/86065-okeanskaya- mnogocelevaya-sistema-status-6-strannaya-utechka-o-novom-yadernom-oruzhii-russkih.html
      avant-garde can be found under u-71 https://nampuom-pycu.livejournal.com/146786.html
      however, there was a confusion with zircon, data about which appeared even before the presentation of bramos 2, since maneuvering warheads have been developed and tested since the 80s, read more about hypersound about "cold"
    2. 0
      30 July 2019 00: 34
      http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/index-967.html
      http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-746.html
      http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/index-714.html
      here are links with sources and time of occurrence of information
      1. 0
        30 July 2019 07: 38
        Quote: telobezumnoe

        here in the comments, data about an autonomous robotic torpedo surfaced for a long time, there were rumors that this concept was developed by Sakharov, which could be under water for years, like retaliation here is an example article and Putin’s speeches https://topwar.ru/86065-okeanskaya- mnogocelevaya-sistema-status-6-strannaya-utechka-o-novom-yadernom-oruzhii-russkih.html
        avant-garde can be found under u-71 https://nampuom-pycu.livejournal.com/146786.html
        however, there was a confusion with zircon, data about which appeared even before the presentation of bramos 2, since maneuvering warheads have been developed and tested since the 80s, read more about hypersound about "cold"
        http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/index-967.html
        http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-746.html
        http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/index-714.html
        here are links with sources and time of occurrence of information

        Jesus and these are your proofs? lol
        for urapatriots a novelty, since they say what to think and what to talk about on the first and second channels

        The first comment is a leak at a meeting of the president, not the fact that it was made by accident. A leak made just by those channels.
        And this us what are they talking about on the first and second channels ?! Laughing out loud good
        Further, about Vanguard, a WT source which apparently refers to the British military publisher Jane's Information Group based on information from open sourcesCARL!
        here in the comments, data on an autonomous robotic torpedo surfaced for a long time, there were rumors

        Rumors are certainly good for grandmothers in the courtyards on the benches.
        Further, it’s difficult to track links to the source, since they either refer to a live journal or local media (again, open sources, if the first can be called such). Toli Poseidon, Toli article about SKIF horseradish understand. It was created back in 2013, and was edited in 2019. What has been edited, hell knows. Maybe they rewrote the article.
        And when you consider that a lot of developments were proposed back in Soviet times and referring to them, saying that you were aware of the creation of the latest weapons is not even funny.
  21. 0
    4 August 2019 01: 02
    Russia has only two faithful allies: its army and its fleet!

    (Alexander III, All-Russian Emperor, Tsar of Poland and Grand Duke of Finland ...).
    The allies have now increased, but they, as before, are here inside Russia ...