Surface ships against the aircraft. World War II

172
1. The Second World War showed that surface ships without air cover do not survive in the zone where the shock is active aviation the enemy. 2. She also showed that large surface ships are easily destroyed by combat aircraft, which, for example, entailed the disappearance of large surface ships - battleships and heavy cruisers.

Surface ships against the aircraft. World War II

The death of "Yamato". Many people think that this is the rule, but this is an exception.




What is the problem with these two statements?

That is a lie: in World War II, everything was not so. And even it was a little on the contrary. Moreover - now it is also not so. And also rather the opposite.

The idea that large surface ships are not able to survive in areas where the enemy’s attack aircraft are working intensively (even though the base aviation, even the deck one, without difference) looks beautiful and fascinates. And there is a certain amount of truth in it. And sometimes it is. Here are just actual evidence, sufficient to consider this idea to be true in all cases - does not exist. And never existed. “Sometimes” and “always” are two very different concepts.

Let's figure it out.

Historical example 1. Worker-Peasant Red Fleet of the USSR against the Luftwaffe


For obvious reasons, it is necessary to begin with domestic combat experience. Because the domestic combat experience was formed under the influence of such unshakable things as "geography", for example. Yes, and the "players" around the same, and sometimes they form painfully familiar from the textbook stories alliances. Therefore, it is worth starting the study of historical experience with the Great Patriotic War.

The analysis of the reasons why our ships died in the war was made long and exhaustively, however, man - and this applies not only to our people, this is generally the case - is not always able to draw the right conclusions even from the "chewed" material. We have to do them for him and give them in finished form. But, in fairness - if the conclusions are correct, then there is nothing to worry about.

Of all the Soviet fleets during the Great Patriotic War, the Black Sea Fleet was the most brutally opposed to German aviation. This was due to the nature of the fighting at sea - from fleet it was necessary to ensure the protection of convoys and transports, to carry out military transportation on their own in the face of enemy aircraft, and to carry out landing operations to help the army. The Navy did all this, with varying success. A feature of the requirements for the fleet in these operations was that warships needed to systematically enter the German strike aircraft area and be there for quite a long time, repelling attacks from the air on their own. It will not go deep into the shortcomings of the Black Sea Fleet’s combat work - there were a huge number of them.

Consider how the results of the battles between the Luftwaffe and the Soviet large surface ships looked like.

During the war years, the Germans managed to sink eleven large (or conditionally large, such as Novik-class EMs, for example) ships — destroyers, leaders, large Minzags, and including one light cruiser.

Under what circumstances could they do this?

We're watching.

- EM "Frunze" (type "Novik"). Sunk in the sea 21 September 1941, hit 9-ti bombers. He lay in drift, rescued by the crew of the sunk gunboat “Krasnaya Armenia”.

- CRL "Chervona Ukraine" (type "Svetlana"). 21 November sunk 1941 in the port of Sevastopol. Being in the base, he beat off multiple attacks of large aviation forces, received extensive damage, lost speed and buoyancy. The crew led a long struggle for survivability, was later removed from the ship.

- Minzag "Ostrovsky" (former trading vessel). 23 March sunk 1942, in Tuapse, stood at the pier.

- EM "Free (pr. 7-y). 10 June 1942, sunk in a parking lot in Sevastopol.

- EM "Flawless" (ex. 7). 26 June 1942, attacked at sea on the move 20-th bombers, received several direct hits with bombs, sank.

- Leader "Tashkent". 28 sunk on June 1942 of the year. Received damage during the transition under massive air strikes (approximately 90 German planes dropped bombs near 300, strikes continued all daylight hours), with the help of other ships in tow came to Novorossiysk, died during a massive (64 bomber for the whole naval base) German strike aviation on the naval base Novorossiysk, at the time of drowning was anchored in the database.

- EM "Vigilant" (Ave. 7). 2 July 1942 was sunk by an air strike while anchored in Novorossiysk Bay.

- Minzag "Comintern" (before conversion, cruiser type "Bogatyr"). 16 July 1942 during a German air attack was seriously damaged in a parking lot in Poti, later disbanded and flooded. Subject to repair, but due to the loss of bases on the Black Sea, repair was not possible. Prior to this, he was repeatedly subjected to attacks from the air at sea on the move, fought back to 10 raids per day, maintained combat capability for damage caused by bombs falling.

- EM "Merciless" (pr.7). 6 was sunk on October 1943 in the course of a massive air strike at sea, the hike was organized and passed with a lot of errors of commanders at all levels.

- Leader "Kharkov". 6 was sunk on October 1943 in the course of a massive air strike at sea, the hike was organized and passed with a lot of errors of commanders at all levels.

- EM "Able." 6 was sunk on October 1943 of the year, together with the EM "Merciless" and the leader "Kharkov", the campaign was organized and passed with a lot of mistakes of commanders at all levels. The commander of "Capable" instead of removing the crews from sinking ships engaged in towing under air strikes, lost the time required to exit from the blow, which resulted in the destruction of the ship. In fact, he could easily get away from the blow.

The last three cases resulted in a ban on bets on large ships at sea.

How many ships, the commanders of which did not make obvious mistakes in planning the march, were sunk by German aircraft at sea and on the move?

ONE. Squadron "Impeccable".

During the entire long, intense and brutal war on the Black Sea, the Germans were able to sink only one warship on the sea, whose combat expedition was properly organized, and the commander did not make obvious nonsense.

And if you count all the drowned on the go and at sea, then four. All the rest were captured in a stationary state in the bases, and most often with extensive combat damage, which, however, did not lead to their death (at sea).

From this point of view, the Stakes order looks at least strange - in the bases it was more dangerous, at least until German aircraft could reach them. For the sake of security, it was necessary to throw all undercarriage "edinichki" into battle - to cut German communications at sea, to disrupt the evacuation of parts of the 17 Army from the Crimea. But our military-political leadership with the strategy at sea was not at odds even then, and it turned out how it happened.

For the rest, until the end of 1943, cruisers and destroyers of the Black Sea Fleet staged artillery attacks on German troops on the coast, transported troops and refugees, delivered landing units to the designated landing areas for landing craft, sometimes under fire in ports, crushing coastal artillery and constantly fought off attacks from the air.
On the cruiser "Red Crimea" was dropped about 2000 bombs. The ship repulsed more than two hundred attacks from the air. Served until 1952 year.


KRL "Red Crimea" goes to Sevastopol, 1941 year



KRL "Red Crimea" enters the finally liberated Sevastopol, 1944 year


The cruiser “Red Caucasus” is almost the same, some figures differ.

Almost every warship of the Black Sea Fleet had its own list of downed German bombers, albeit a short one.

Take, for example, the oldest of the sunken warships - Minzag "Comintern", the former cruiser "Cahul" of the type "Bogatyr". 9 March 1942 escorts from Novorossiysk to Sevastopol, Germans discover a convoy and March 10 convoy has to repel 10 air attacks, March 11 convoy comes to Sevastopol without a loss, and there the Comintern receives a direct bomb hit with serious damage and personal losses composition, while the combat capability of the ship is not lost and the Germans in the attack lose two aircraft. After that, the “old man”, launched as early as 1902, goes back to Novorossiysk.

And so - all the major ships of the Black Sea Fleet. Dozens of times throughout the war, many dozens. Trekking, repulsed air attacks, regularly shot down by German aircraft.

The experience of the war on the Black Sea unequivocally showed that the destruction of a large high-speed surface ship on the move at sea by tactical strike aircraft is an incredibly difficult task, fraught with, firstly, a huge expenditure of ammunition, and secondly it is also dangerous for the attacker - the ship can be very painful snap back At the same time, the chances for its successful implementation are minimal.

Even more than that, in a battle between the limited aviation forces and a surface ship, on the Black Sea in 1941-1943, the surface ship, as a rule, defeated. This is a historical fact.


But in the base of the ship is vulnerable. Firstly, it stands, and secondly, it is surrounded by terrain with characteristic landmarks and sometimes difficult terrain, which facilitates an attack for aviation. But the bases are not so simple. In those days, when the Germans managed to sink “Chervona Ukraine,” the “Red Crimea” was hiding in Sevastopol and did not get it. And on the Baltic, the Germans (largely by chance) “got” Marat, but the “October Revolution” failed. Nevertheless, the vulnerability of ships at sea is important - and it is low, at least, our combat experience speaks precisely about this.

Why is it important for us the fact of sinking exactly at sea on the move to assess the military stability of NK attacked by aviation? Because the ship performs combat missions precisely on the move and at sea. And it is on the move and at sea you need to evaluate its combat capability, including under air attack.

But maybe these are some features of the Eastern Front? Maybe the western experience is talking about something else?

Not. Does not speak.

Historical example 2. Kriegsmarine vs. Western Allies


The German defeat of the war at sea is a well-known fact. As well as those adverse conditions in which their surface fleet had to act.

The enemy of the Germans, Britain, dominated the sea. The British at the start of the war had seven aircraft carriers and carrier-based aircraft. It is necessary to say that it is very outdated, but in the absence of the enemy’s own aircraft over the sea, even outdated aviation can in theory become an infinitely significant thing. So it turned out in the end?

And again - no. Destroyers omit, they rarely went on long hikes against the Royal Navy, but the larger ships list. To some, this will seem dishonest, because in the Soviet fleet we considered them large enough to be considered. But here such a thing - what fleet, such and "large". Who does not like the technique, they can recount in their own way.

So, we take a list of two Bismarck class battleships (Bismarck and Tirpitz), a pair of Scharnhorst class battleships (Scharnhorst and Gneisenau), pocket battleships (Deutschland, Admiral Count Spee, " Admiral Scheer "), heavy cruisers" Blucher "," Admiral Hipper "," Prince Eugen "and smaller cruisers" Karlsruhe "," Cologne "," Konigsberg "," Emden "," Leipzig "and" Nürnberg ".

What do we see from this? If we reject those ships that survived the war and surrendered, then among the dead again only one ship, to the death of which aviation was involved, and which, at the same time, would have died on the move and at sea - the Bismarck. All the others either died for reasons not related to aviation, or were bombed in bases, and the same Tirpitz, for example, from the 14 th attempt.

Moreover, Bismarck is again a specific example.

Firstly, if Lyutens did not give the same radiogram that issued it, and, having shown more responsibility, would act according to the situation and independently, it is not at all the fact that the battleship would be caught by the “British”. And when they still “caught” him, the aircraft only damaged the ship, and did not sink it, the Bismarck even kept the course, and if the British were not near the surface forces, the ship could have either left or made an adversary to pay for its drowning in multiple lives.

So how much did Kriegsmarine lose large surface ships at sea on the move from the actions of enemy aircraft?

ONE.

Moreover, one “with a stretch”, together with other forces, whose “contribution” to the destruction of the ship was at least comparable to that of aviation. From 1939 to 1945 years.

And what conclusions can be drawn from this? The conclusions are obvious and they have already been made for the Soviet fleet. However, we will come back to the conclusions.

And now we go over the ocean.

Historical example 3. War in the Pacific


It is rather difficult to single out any significant episodes in the war, where more than eight hundred units were used alone of the landing craft. The US TF38 / 58 “our money” carrier link would have to be called something like the “Carrier Fleet Group”. The scale of the use of carrier-based aviation in that war was unprecedented. Unprecedented is literally - this has never happened before, and, most importantly, this will never happen again. No other country in the world will create a fleet with dozens of heavy strike aircraft carriers and hundreds of light and escort ships. It is no longer possible.

It is possible to single out episodes from giant fights that confirm or disprove something. But the scale will lead to the fact that it will be possible to simply “shovel to row” examples for any of the points of view.

Therefore, let us turn to statistics.

So, we use the data of JANAC - the General Committee of the Army and Navy, which had the task of examining the losses inflicted during the war on the enemy, the losses of Japanese warships and merchant ships with a "breakdown" according to the forces by which these losses were inflicted.

And this “breakdown” looks like this.

In total, the US sank 611 combat Japanese ship of all classes (except for submarines, the study on them took place "in another department").

Of them sunk:
US Navy Submarines - 201
Surface Ships - 112
Army Aviation - 70
Basic Naval Aviation - 20
Deck Naval Aviation - 161
Coastal Artillery - 2
Blown up by mines - 19
Destroyed by “other aircraft and agents” (whatever that means) - 26

What is the conclusion? And the conclusion is simple: in the presence of the carrier fleet, when the aircraft carriers are the main combat ships and perform the main tasks, and at the same time in conditions of an extremely intensive air war waged by the basic aircraft against the Japanese fleet (both army and navy), aircraft of all types have sunk fewer ships than surface ships and submarines. And less than half of the ships that the US drowned in general.

And this is in conditions when the opposing side also massively had aircraft carriers that themselves could lift the aircraft into the air, which deprived the “ship against aircraft” experiment of the necessary “purity”, so to speak.

Aviation was, of course, the main striking force in the war in the Pacific Ocean, but it was not she who caused the main losses to the enemy’s surface forces. Paradox, but it is.

And this is the same fact as dozens of flights of the “Red Crimea” under air strikes. Irrefutable.

There is one more example. Battleships

Historical example 4. Loss of battleships in the sea from air strikes


Interestingly, the view that the battleship was squeezed with light by airplanes still dominates the minds. Nevertheless, it is worth assessing the reality, namely, how many total battleships were destroyed by airplanes on the move into the sea? For the "weight" we will add more battlecruisers here, let them also be in the "rating".

1. "Bismarck" (Germany) - as already mentioned, not quite a "clean" example. But we shall.

2. The Prince of Wales (Britain) is the notorious Battle of Kuantan, one of the alleged proofs of the inability of surface ships to survive under air strikes.

3. RIPALS (battlecruiser, not a battleship, Britain) - at the same time. We will return to this example.

4. Hiei (Japan). An example is even less “clean” than the “Bismarck” - the ship was seriously damaged and almost completely lost its combat capability even before the air strike, moreover, it sank not from the effects of an air attack, it was flooded by its own after further use of the ship turned out to be impossible due to damage. But the aircraft contributed to its sinking, so again we count.

5. Roma (Italy). The battleship was sunk by yesterday’s allies after the crew decided to surrender, moreover, the newest weapon, against which the Italians had no means - a guided planning bomb. That is, here is an example of the use by the Germans of technical equipment belonging to another technological era.

6. Musashi (Japan). A “clean” example, but also with one reservation, about which later.

7. Yamato (Japan). The ship, on the one hand, was specifically sent by the command to death in order to divert American aircraft, on the other hand, the number of aircraft thrown at its sinking was as unprecedented as the number of the US aircraft carrier fleet. No one has ever before or after that thrown and will not attack a small group of ships (in fact, on one strike ship with an escort) 368 with first-class attack planes from 11-ti (!) Aircraft carriers. Never. So that example is still, but oh well.

Total Behind the aircraft completely and unconditionally - "Prince of Wales", "Republics" and "Musashi".

Again, the Ripals were an outdated ship virtually devoid of air defense weapons, he had only two 76-mm cannons and that was all. This is zero.

For comparison: at the KRL "Red Crimea", theoretically not comparable with the "Ripals" ship "a few classes lower" was:
- 100 mm anti-aircraft guns - 3;
- 45-mm semi-automatic guns - 4;
- 37-mm anti-aircraft guns - 10;
- 12,7 mm quad machine gun installations - 2;
- 12,7 mm machine guns - 4.

In an amicable way, “Ripals” would be excluded from the “rating”, but he died in one battle with a real battleship, with “Prince of Wales”, and in a sign battle, so leave, but with the proviso that it was a floating target, but not a full-fledged warship.

Next, returning to our unconditional episodes - in fact, these are two fights from the entire Second World War. And in both cases, huge aviation forces were thrown at the ships, especially at Musashi. Thus, behind the aircraft there are two “clean” fights, both in the form of pre-planned attacks on one or two ships by very large forces, moreover at intervals of 2 of the year and ten months.

And - controversial episodes. "Bismarck" about which everything is already said above. “Hiei”, which, perhaps, would have drowned without air attacks. "Roma", faced with the fact that yesterday's ally used super-weapon. The Yamato, which the command sent to the death, and the enemy literally fell asleep with bombs and torpedoes in such quantities that it will not be repeated by anyone ever. An example that does not prove anything really.

And that's all. These are all battleships sunk by airplanes, on the go at sea. Seven ships in six battles, of which the aircraft single-handedly resolved the issue only in four, of which one was the unexpected use of the newest weapon, and in the second the battleship itself went on a suicide. And yes, “Ripals” is still not a battleship, there was one battleship in that battle.


"Prince of Wales" shortly before his death.


And, since everything is known in comparison, we will see how much of all the battleships were sunk during the war.

Answer: together with the ships mentioned - fourteen. It turns out that the aircraft destroyed only half, and to be honest, of the fourteen battleships and the "Ripals" (he is also on this list), five "were" sunk by "pure" aircraft, including the not having air defense "Ripals", "Roma" and deliberately substituted Yamato strike.

Somehow it looks weak from the outside. And it does not look at all in comparison with how many battleships the opposing sides have entered into battle.


Painting artist. A planning bomb Fritz X from a German bomber falls on the LC "Roma", surrendering to the British. Guided bombs became super-short-lived for a short time, but the Allies very quickly introduced interference


However, in the action movie "battleship against air strikes," there are also reverse examples. It was the American battleships that during the war in the Pacific Ocean were the “shield” that defended ship formations from Japanese aircraft. Equipped with radar and a large number of rapid-fire cannons in caliber from 20 to 127 mm, high-speed and armored battleships played the same role in that war, which, after a few decades, the URO ships with the AEGIS system would perform. They will beat off thousands of Japanese aviation attacks - from base bombers and torpedo bombers to "live RCC" - airplanes, guided by "kamikaze". They will get hit, shoot down enemy planes, walk to the enemy shore to conduct shelling, conduct artillery battles with surface ships at sea ... and not one will be sunk.


"South Dakota" repels the attack of Japanese aviation, Santa Cruz Island, 26 October 1942 year. Planes lost


Very revealing.

In fairness it is worth noting those who "spoils the statistics" - the British destroyers. That's who aviation crumbled, so crumbled. But, here again, specific moments - the Britons often climbed to the place where it was precisely the large aviation forces that were waiting for them, for example, during the German capture of Crete. Who climbs on the rampage, he eventually gets sooner or later, there is nothing to be done.

As for the losses of American destroyers, after deducting the kamikaze attacks, which were also a sudden innovation for the allies, they, for the most part, did not die from airplanes.

Hack and predictor Aviator


A sober analysis of the confrontation between surface ships and airplanes in World War II speaks about this.

In cases where a single surface ship or a small group of surface ships (for example, the Prince of Wales and Ripals under Kuantan) encounters large, well-trained aviation forces that purposefully carry out a large-scale operation aimed at the destruction of these particular ships, there is no chance . The ship is slow and the planes that did not destroy it the first time will then return again and again, and with each attack, the ship will be less and less able to resist - unless of course it is sunk at all immediately.

There are a lot of examples, and this is not only the battle of Kuantan, this is the loss of the British during the evacuation of troops from Crete, this is our “black day” of October 6, 1943 of the year, and much more. Actually, from a non-critical analysis of such episodes, concepts are born that surface ships "have become outdated for a long time."

But in cases when a single ship or group operating in the zone of enemy domination in the air, they retain the surprise of their actions, they act according to a clear plan that allows using all the flaws of aviation as a combat vehicle (using the time of day and weather, taking into account the reaction time of aviation to the detected combat ship when planning an operation and choosing points for changing course, masking when entering the bases, high speed at the transition and unpredictable maneuvering, choosing an unexpected course for reconnaissance of the enemy after any contact with his forces, not only with aircraft), have a strong anti-aircraft weapons and trained crew, to maintain discipline when using the radio, have everything you need on board to lead the struggle for survival right in the battle, and after him - the situation is reversed. Small-scale aerial reconnaissance forces are generally powerless to harm such a ship, as are the duty attack squadrons alerted upon its detection.

Even the mistress says that in the overwhelming number of cases when such “prepared” surface ships entered into hostile waters, they won fights against aviation. The same Black Sea fleet is quite an example, because every ship, even a dead one, first TENS 10 times went where the Luftwaffe could act and act freely.

This is exactly what the correct conclusions are about what we should learn from the experience of WWII. This does not detract from the role of naval aviation, it does not reduce its danger for surface ships, and especially for supply vessels, it does not cancel its ability to destroy absolutely any ship if necessary, or a group of ships.

But it shows well that it has a limit of possibilities in the first place, and that in order to succeed it needs to create a huge superiority in forces over the enemy in the second place. Or a lot of luck. What is not always possible.

And the experience of WWII lucidly tells us that ships in the bases are just targets. Taranto, Pearl Harbor, German raids on our bases on the Black and Baltic Seas, the sinking of German ships - from the Tirpitz to some light cruiser, the sinking of our aircraft, Niobe - everything speaks about this. The ship in the base is in a much more dangerous position than a ship at sea. We must not forget this.

Surface ships may well fight in the absence of dominance in the air of their aircraft, they may well fight in the presence of enemy aircraft in the sky, and even sometimes in conditions where it dominates the air - at least locally. Their possibilities, of course, also have a limit. But still it is necessary to reach this limit. Or rather - it is not necessary to reach him.

But maybe something has changed in modern times? After all, we are so smart, we have ZGRLS, we have rockets, the planes are now supersonic ... in modern times, it’s not like in the old days, right?

Not true.

To be continued ...
172 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. -7
    13 July 2019 07: 03
    But this shows well that she has a limit of possibilities in the first place, and that for success she needs to create a huge superiority in power over the enemy in the second place. Or a lot of luck. What is not always possible

    Surface ships may well fight in the absence of dominance in the air of their aircraft, they may well fight in the presence of enemy aircraft in the sky, and even sometimes in conditions where it dominates the air - at least locally. Their possibilities, of course, also have a limit. But still it is necessary to reach this limit. Or rather - it is not necessary to reach him.

    A couple of modern aircraft with several anti-ship missiles under the wing quickly dispel a similar myth ...
    1. +16
      13 July 2019 07: 22
      "A couple" will not dispel anything, a couple of dozen - maybe even that is not a fact.
      1. +3
        13 July 2019 07: 29
        "A couple" will not dispel anything, a couple of dozen - maybe even that is not a fact.

        Well, yes, before Stark, Americans also thought so. wink
        1. +5
          13 July 2019 10: 42
          I think that if at the beginning of the war in the USSR huge territories with cities, factories and people were not lost, we would also have surprised the world with a variety of military equipment, and the quality would have been higher
          1. +4
            13 July 2019 16: 01
            Well done author - how "dashingly" he takes an idea that has come into his head and throws it in "confirming" "facts", that is, deduces a theory, a la - "harm from cucumbers (everyone died, because at least once in his life, but ate cucumbers) ".... Remember, as in the famous cartoon:" The wings of the leg ... the main thing is the tail! ". Well, the conclusion is interesting that the greatest confrontation in the Second World War between the ships of Soviet Russia and the Luftwaffe aviation was allegedly at the Black Sea Fleet, ... yeah, but the Baltic type is like that ... stood nearby and smoked ... well- well ... and by the way, it was the Baltic Fleet that was subjected to the Luftwaffe's air offensive, and precisely, in the parking lots at the base ...
            1. Hog
              +4
              13 July 2019 19: 02
              So the bottom line is that the Black Sea Fleet was active, and the Baltic Fleet only covered Leningrad and Kronstadt.
    2. +1
      13 July 2019 17: 24
      Argentines and Iraqis attacked URO destroyers with single aircraft from Exocet. "Sheffield" - burned down, American, attacked by mistake during the Iran-Iraq war and then "nobly" forgiven, received heavy damage.
    3. 0
      31 July 2019 16: 45
      Quote: article author
      The idea that large surface ships are not able to survive in areas where enemy strike aircraft are intensively operating

      the idea is completely different. it’s enough not to drown the ship, but to withdraw from combat effectiveness.
      and these aircraft do a great job.
      A broken steering wheel Yamato is as useless as a drowned one.
  2. +24
    13 July 2019 07: 04
    Everything is correct for the period under review. Particularly impressive are the actions bombarded with air defense systems, American battleships and cruisers.
    I remember the memoirs of one of our pilots who wrote that attacking a ship is very scary. This was written by a man who had already won a lot.
    But the presence of enemy aircraft in the absence of their own fleet (precisely their own, and not coastal, etc.) creates conditions for the fleet that are poorly compatible with the very existence. Because the aircraft carrier has become the most versatile ship. Because the Americans will have a lot of them and will only build large aircraft carriers. And therefore, for other countries, aircraft carriers are a prestige and nothing more. Since no one has so much money to use aviation correctly.
    Aviation has a long range, great speed, maneuverability in 3 dimensions and a large set of weapons. This gives incredible application flexibility. That is, it is simply more convenient. Aircraft carrier is very easily upgraded by replacing aircraft or a set of their weapons. This also applies to simple aviation.
    It is also worth mentioning how the American air attacks were organized. In no fleet did the pilot have such authority and value. This was not and is not in any fleet either earlier or now.
  3. +34
    13 July 2019 07: 08
    There have been no articles by Oleg Kaptsov for a long time. I was a sinful thing, while reading until the end of the article I thought that the article was Oleg.
    1. +2
      13 July 2019 10: 35
      Quote: igordok
      believed that the article was Oleg.

      Sometimes almost the same thing, which in turn upsets!
    2. +8
      13 July 2019 13: 58
      +100500
      I already wanted to write an extensive accusatory commentary on Kaptsov, but was stunned by the name of the author. Until now, there have been people who have argued with Timokhin, but mainly on the "higher" or "deep" issues of modern weapons. Such a tough pulling on the poor owl from this author could not have been expected, given the previous articles. It is not clear yet why it is written at all
      1. +1
        13 July 2019 18: 47
        In previous articles, the same pull, just because of the specifics, it was noticeable to a narrower circle of people.
    3. +2
      15 July 2019 10: 51
      Quote: igordok
      There were no articles by Oleg Kaptsov for a long time

      but his work lives on soldier
    4. The comment was deleted.
  4. +16
    13 July 2019 07: 28
    Can I add about the Red Banner Black Sea Fleet during the Great Patriotic War?
    The battleship "Paris Commune" made 15 military campaigns, in which it made 10 fire raids, firing more than 3000 shells of the main caliber at the enemy until the barrels were completely worn out, repelled more than 20 air raids, shot down 3 aircraft.
    I did not find anything about the losses he suffered, but the ship was decommissioned only in 1956-57!
    As the author correctly noted, with the proper organization of the military campaign of the ships, the losses will be minimal!
    1. 0
      13 July 2019 11: 31
      Quote: andrewkor
      I didn’t find anything about the losses he suffered

      Because Sevastopol was cherished like the apple of an eye, unlike Marat and the October Revolution!
      1. +3
        13 July 2019 13: 38
        That's what I say: in properly organized combat exits, "they took care of them like the apple of an eye."
        1. +2
          13 July 2019 14: 43
          Quote: andrewkor
          So I say

          Since April of the 1942 year, I practically never climbed out of Poti (Once in Batumi and then Poti was back there)
      2. +1
        13 July 2019 15: 29
        Means: "commune" is more expensive than Marat and the October Revolution? Joke.
        But seriously, that ships were not cherished in the Baltic?
        1. 0
          13 July 2019 17: 22
          So there was nowhere to go, in the literal sense of the word. They defended their Base! Take the Germans Peter - and that's all, it would remain only to blow up the ships. There was nowhere to break through.
        2. 0
          13 July 2019 20: 39
          But seriously, that ships were not cherished in the Baltic?

          It was possible not only to fly to the base in Kronstadt from the coast occupied by the Germans, but also to add it. In such circumstances, the defense of the base is a task of inconceivable complexity (and the fact that the sunk didn’t mean that someone in the Baltic made a feat)
          And you won’t hide boats in the sea, because of that sea --- the Marquis of Puddle
          1. +1
            15 July 2019 10: 29
            Quote: AK64
            In such circumstances, the defense of the base is an impossible task

            All that was needed was to coordinate the actions of the combat arms participating in the defense of Kronstadt!
        3. +2
          15 July 2019 10: 25
          Quote: Astra wild
          But seriously, that ships were not cherished in the Baltic?

          Events near the Tahkun lighthouse, Tallinn crossing, evacuation of Hanko, Kronstadt air defense .... list tired!
      3. +3
        13 July 2019 17: 19
        Sevastopol began to be protected after the shooting of the gun barrels and the loss of escort ships. But to say that he was especially "taken care of" is not entirely tactful, he just participated from all three battleships in military campaigns and actively provided assistance with the main caliber of the ground forces.
        1. +1
          15 July 2019 11: 45
          Quote: LeonidL
          to say that he was especially "cherished" is not entirely tactful

          Leonid, from 22 of June to 1 of November of the 41 of the year, Sevastopol stood under a mask net on his legal 3 of the barrel near the hospital wall. After the first raid of the Lapporteurs, he left for Poti on the night of November 2. On the morning of November 2, the Germans carried out a powerful airstrike precisely on the Linkor mask mask net tied to barrels. The Paris Commune returned to Sevastopol on the 29 of December on the guard of Molotov, why exactly Molotov, and not let Voroshilov? And on Molotov there was a Redut-K radar! The Molotov radar + enhanced coastal air defense on the slopes of the South Bay + the relief of the bay itself did not allow any German aircraft to approach the battleship operating on the positions of the Germans! The second time, the battleship did not enter Sevastopol; it worked at night on Sarych beam. The rest of the firing took place at the sites of least German aircraft impact and at night.
          Is it possible to say based on the foregoing that the battleship Sevastopol was cherished? I think, Leonid, that yes, take care!
          Could in Kronstadt steal air defense systems to Ust-Slingshot and cover Marat?
          1. 0
            15 July 2019 18: 02
            You're right! But I used "did not take care" in the sense that the battleship was actively involved in hostilities! And how they took care of it, it is only honor and praise! Thanks for the clarification, very interesting about the radar!
  5. +4
    13 July 2019 07: 29
    Very interesting statistics on the Black Sea Fleet. Informative. Thank.
    1. +4
      13 July 2019 17: 16
      The statistics are not complete and not very accurate - it is necessary to consider not only sunken ships of the first rank, but also incapacitated by aircraft for a long time, not only bombs and torpedoes, but also mine weapons, in addition, ships of the first rank in the navy are in the minority. Rather, it is necessary to take into account the total loss of the fleet, including the mobilized one. Then the picture of war at sea becomes more true.
  6. D16
    +1
    13 July 2019 07: 35
    Fortunately, the Argentines and Husites did not read your article. laughing . The Hussites, of course, do not have aviation, but there are RCCs. They are also a kind of aviation wink
    1. Hog
      +1
      13 July 2019 19: 07
      Fortunately, the Argentines and Husites did not read your article.

      Can we first wait for the author to continue the article on modern aviation, and only then will we draw conclusions?
      1. D16
        0
        13 July 2019 22: 28
        But maybe something has changed in modern times? After all, we are so smart, we have ZRLS, we have rockets, planes are now supersonic ... in modern times, it’s not like in the old days, really. (c) aftora laughing
    2. 0
      13 July 2019 20: 42
      Fortunately, the Argentines and Husites did not read your article. laughing The Hussites, of course, do not have aviation, but there are anti-ship missiles. They are also in some way aviation wink

      How many laughter and emoticons ....
      How many Argentines performed sorties and launches, and how many drowned? Sheffield For Sheffield, some kind of nonsense with radars was for some reason --- they did not see the attack.

      (There is a legend that Argentines have a bunch of free-falling bombs hit but did not explode ... But too lazy to look for statistics)
      1. D16
        +3
        13 July 2019 22: 43
        https://topwar.ru/25339-gibel-korabley-epizody-folklendskoy-voyny.html
        Enlighten lol .
        1. -1
          14 July 2019 10: 44
          Reads another one article --- ONE! --- and already knows everything
          1. D16
            0
            14 July 2019 17: 30
            This one is just closer than the others. I am ready to read your compelling arguments that this is not true and that there were no holes in the sides. But there were not five exosets of air-based and all of their warheads worked as they should. lol
  7. +8
    13 July 2019 08: 16
    The classic "survivor's mistake" yeah. Dolphins are pushing people to the shore. It's just that no one has heard those who are being pushed into the depths. So it is with the topic of the article. No losses among large ships! - so it is not because they realized it in time
    Yes, aviation is not a child prodigy. She is only one of instruments of war
    1. -3
      14 July 2019 01: 19
      Just "wunderwaffle". She allowed small forces to fight battleships. To sink a battleship you need an air regiment (yes, without a guarantee, but, nevertheless, really) or a battleship of the same kind. The air regiment has a crew ten times less (30 - 60 aircraft - 60 - 240 people, the battleship has a crew of 2000-3000 people), costs hundreds of times less. And it is far from the fact that it will be completely destroyed, even with an unsuccessful raid. The chances that the losing battleship will be sunk are much greater.
      1. +2
        14 July 2019 10: 52
        The air regiment has a crew ten times smaller (30 - 60 aircraft - 60 - 240 people, the battleship crew - 2000-3000 people)

        belay
        and ground staff?

        costs hundreds of times less.

        belay
        Enlighten me: exactly how much does a year of operation of an air group of a strike aircraft carrier cost?
        1. +1
          14 July 2019 11: 42
          Quote: Andrey Shmelev
          and ground staff?
          What does he have to do with it? He will not die in battle. Well, all right, double the number of personnel of the air regiment, and add the number of the ship repair plant and the personnel of the port to the battleship’s crew.
          Quote: Andrey Shmelev
          Enlighten me: exactly how much does a year of operation of an air group of a strike aircraft carrier cost?
          After you enlighten me about how much a year of operating a battleship costs, which just to heat up the boilers left more fuel than the destroyer needed for a whole trip.
          1. +2
            14 July 2019 12: 02
            After you enlighten me about how much a year of operating a battleship costs,


            from 2,5 to 5% of the cost of construction (in comparable prices), depending on the operating mode and PS, for linear cruisers this value may be greater, recovery is possible with very intensive preparation or due to repair
            For example, the cost of maintenance in 1933
            Rodney 430 pounds
            Hood 432 t. Pounds
            Queen Elizabeth 170 pounds
            for lighter ships, the value increases
            for example, the content of a heavy cruiser in the same 1933 = 240 tons of pounds, that is, more than 10% (although for a heavy cruiser the norm is about 8%), and 10-15% is already the norm of a destroyer

            What does he have to do with it?


            if the NP is put on an aircraft carrier, then it will die as well, but sitting on the mainland it will not always be where it is necessary

            After you enlighten me about how much a year of operating a battleship costs, which just to heat up the boilers left more fuel than the destroyer needed for a whole trip.


            this is not so, compare the fuel consumption of a destroyer and a battleship with specific examples - you will be very surprised

            And now enlighten me how much it cost to maintain an air regiment in the same 1993.
            1. 0
              14 July 2019 16: 07
              Well, here: https://topwar.ru/12712-sravnenie-stoimosti-avianoscev-i-raketno-kosmicheskih-sistem-protivodeystviya.html. $ 96 million per year (without consumable bombs and missiles)
          2. 0
            14 July 2019 12: 28
            What does he have to do with it? He will not die in battle. Well, all right, double the number of personnel of the air regiment, and add the number of the ship repair plant and the personnel of the port to the battleship’s crew.


            Wrong answer. The correct answer is: "What about the coastal base personnel and other service personnel?"
            And ... that's it

            It is difficult to compare the year of operation --- because then the year of LC in the sea must be taken.
    2. +2
      14 July 2019 10: 49
      Yes, aviation is not a child prodigy. She's just one of the tools of war

      Wunderwaffle. It was precisely what the child prodigy --- made to completely change both the tactics and the nature of naval war in general.
      What is the meaning of the Pearl Harbor raid and what does this raid teach us? The Japanese decided that by destroying all the battleships, they also destroyed the American fleet in the Pacific. But the Americans showed them in response that "yes, the battleships, in fact, are no longer needed," and that 4 aircraft carriers, it turns out, have much greater combat value and much greater combat capabilities than a dozen battleships.
      This is a visual lesson: drowning everything in PX --- the Japanese did not achieve NOTHING,

      And you say "not a wunderwaffle"
      1. 0
        14 July 2019 12: 19
        Quote: AK64
        And you say "not a wunderwaffle"

        Heh. We have different concepts in this word. Is aviation alone capable of achieving all the goals of war? No. Then do not powder me or your moss. The restrictions on its use are carts and small carts. as well as large artillery (rocket) ships. The goal is achieved by the combination of efforts of all. because to exalt one thing is stupid. You can pick your teeth with a screwdriver, but better with a toothpick ...
        1. -1
          14 July 2019 12: 30
          Heh. We have different concepts in this word. Is aviation alone capable of achieving all the goals of war? No. Then do not powder me or your moss. The restrictions on its use are carts and small carts. as well as large artillery (rocket) ships. The goal is achieved by the combination of efforts of all. because to exalt one thing is stupid. You can pick your teeth with a screwdriver, but better with a toothpick ...


          Art movements began with parts of the body ....
        2. +3
          14 July 2019 16: 15
          The price and complexity of the battleships is such that they had to decide the fate of countries and continents. Only a battleship could cope with a battleship (theoretically, coastal defense guns can also compete, but if the battleship does not want to climb them, then they have no chance) and woe to those who do not. When it turned out that it was possible to stick them in with a much cheaper tool, they refused the battleships: giving away such money made sense only for the arbiters of fate, and not for simple ships.
  8. +3
    13 July 2019 08: 32
    Good competent and reasoned article. Aviation during the Second World War undoubtedly exerts its power, but very often its merits are overestimated.
    1. +4
      13 July 2019 10: 40
      Quote: certero
      Aviation during the Second World War undoubtedly exerts its power, but very often its merits are overestimated.

      Here I completely agree.
      1. +1
        13 July 2019 17: 13
        Of course, the Douai Doctrine did not find its confirmation, but in WWII there was an obvious balance of all types and arms of the troops, all types of weapons, both at sea and on land, and in the air. Much created by the gloomy Teutonic genius was simply stupidly late for the war, thank God. But the race for new weapons and the latest "counter-weapons" is being waged, has been and will continue to be conducted constantly. Therefore, it is simply ridiculous to pull on the clothes of the past wars on the modern day and not to fit them according to "fashion". However, even when turned over, it will not last long - it will burst at new seams.
    2. +7
      13 July 2019 11: 07
      and you and the author ask the commander-in-chief for one of the ZTUs for the air defense of the KUG (KPUG) with actual firing, but only at missile targets, at least at the "old woman" RM-17, and not at the M-6 parachute or simulator ...
      and look with your own eyes at all the actual "charms" of organizing the air defense order and the ship ... so to speak, feel the dynamics and transience of events in your gut ... but this is just a teaching ... I really don't know those are being conducted now ...
      only then will you see the actual capabilities of both the air defense system (air attack weapons) and the naval air defense systems in the current conditions ... I think that your opinion will change dramatically ...
      1. +1
        13 July 2019 16: 32
        And then he’ll let him go! Well, and even more so to observe the firing of almost dorsal missiles and even to observe the non-aggression and the actual breakthrough by means of attacks by the air defense echelon. The best example is the death of a guard at the Pacific Fleet. From the ancient 15ki in my opinion. And so the teachings are always gut
      2. +1
        13 July 2019 17: 08
        Who will let the author go there for a cannon shot after reading a set of articles?
  9. +15
    13 July 2019 08: 32
    at Ceylon, fifty Japanese deck aircraft were found and drowned 2 cruisers in 10 minutes. Then they found an aircraft carrier and also drowned with an escort
    1. 0
      13 July 2019 10: 35
      at Ceylon, fifty Japanese deck aircraft were found and drowned 2 cruisers in 10 minutes. Then they found an aircraft carrier and also drowned with an escort


      it's Timokhin)
      1. +3
        13 July 2019 12: 36
        Timokhin usually writes good articles. But chickpeas obviously faked. Although the general idea is clear
        1. +3
          13 July 2019 14: 01
          Timokhin usually writes good articles. But chickpeas obviously faked

          And it seems that purposefully
        2. 0
          13 July 2019 18: 50
          I think not timokhin. Most likely Klimov and Timokhin, of which only poison and mats in relation to the Navy, removes and paraphrases
          1. -1
            14 July 2019 01: 20
            No, Kaptsov definitely.
    2. 0
      14 July 2019 10: 52
      at Ceylon, fifty Japanese deck aircraft were found and drowned 2 cruisers in 10 minutes. Then they found an aircraft carrier and also drowned with an escort

      Too many consider the Easter raid on Ceylon an epic failure: the mountain gave birth to a mouse
  10. +8
    13 July 2019 08: 33
    But what about the loss of the British in the Falklands War? Only two ships were sunk by "Exocet" smart missiles, and the rest were sunk by conventional free-fall bombs (WWII in American times). And all the ships were in motion at that time. And the naval air defense of the British, well, certainly cannot be called primitive, besides, the training of the crews was clearly not below average.
    1. +5
      13 July 2019 09: 34
      Just stood mostly
    2. +7
      13 July 2019 09: 37
      Yes, it’s impossible to be primitive, according to Argentines they were spying from machine guns and machine guns.
      1. 0
        20 July 2019 19: 36
        "Yes, you can't be primitive, they used machine guns and submachine guns on the Argentines."
        And this is from an excess of adrenaline and emotions. I think that we would, in a similar situation, start to shoot from a pneumatic gun! good
  11. +6
    13 July 2019 08: 41
    In my opinion, now we need to talk not about a ship against an aircraft, but anti-ship missiles against an air defense of a ship’s group, and what kind of carriers are there, if you lose the enemy technologically, then they will sink your pelvis and rockets or withdraw, and if the technology is equal, the numbers and tactics decide how the Phoenicians commanded.
  12. -1
    13 July 2019 09: 01
    The article is not a lie, and in it is a hint to a good fellows lesson ...
  13. +8
    13 July 2019 09: 40
    Yamato went with an escort of 9 ships - all but one destroyer were sunk. A third of the aircraft did not participate in the attack at all. It is not clear why this is not an example, because Yamato itself is an exception to the rule.
    Roma drowned with new weapons, so what? There is always a new weapon
    1. Hog
      +1
      13 July 2019 19: 13
      Roma drowned with new weapons, so what? There is always a new weapon

      Because it had no means of counteracting such weapons.
      If a modern ship burns with some railgun, will you blame the air defense for inefficiency?
      1. +2
        14 July 2019 03: 40
        Quote: Hog
        Roma drowned with new weapons, so what? There is always a new weapon

        Because it had no means of counteracting such weapons.
        If a modern ship burns with some railgun, will you blame the air defense for inefficiency?

        Shoot down a non-maneuvering aircraft at an altitude of 6km and a range of 5km? The Germans walked over them for half an hour. Three battleships, three cruisers and eight destroyers do not have anti-aircraft guns of medium caliber? Oh well..
        1. Hog
          0
          14 July 2019 22: 07
          The Germans walked over them for half an hour.

          "But the Italians did not open fire: firstly, the planes were at such a height that it was impossible to determine their affiliation by identification marks; secondly, Bergamini himself mistakenly believed that these were Allied planes covering the squadron from the air."
          1. +1
            15 July 2019 04: 52
            And then they opened and began to maneuver. Only bombardment under anti-aircraft fire took half an hour
  14. +3
    13 July 2019 09: 41
    Hm. And where are the losses of the merchant fleet from aviation? Or merchant fleet and victory are things now unrelated?
    1. Hog
      0
      13 July 2019 19: 17
      At the beginning of the war, there was no air defense at the merchants at all, so they could be drowned without fear (dropping bombs from a minimum height, firing from directional weapons).
      At the end of the war, the situation did not change much, a slow-moving, slightly maneuverable vessel with a pair of anti-aircraft guns and large-caliber guns only slightly increased the distance the attack began.
  15. +15
    13 July 2019 09: 42
    In fairness, it should be noted that not two 76-mm anti-aircraft guns were on Ripals in the last battle. Six 102-mm anti-aircraft guns, three 8x40-mm "pom-poms" and four 4x12,7-mm Vickers. Just before reaching the Pacific Ocean, eight more 20-mm Oerlikons were added. Well, the anti-aircraft directors with optical rangefinders were installed.
    But, of course, this is also completely inadequate at the end of 1941.
    1. +4
      13 July 2019 13: 00
      Thanks for the comment, I also wanted to write about this, which is not "2 * 76 and that's it." And by the way, the big question is as to who - Repals or Prince of Wales had weaker air defense. Here the EMs somehow did not show themselves in this battle, the ships maneuvered on their own, there was nothing like even the Italian formation at Matapan.
      1. +1
        15 July 2019 15: 38
        Quote: Wildcat
        And by the way, the big question is about who - from Ripals or the Prince of Wales was weaker than air defense.

        Yeah, especially considering the well-known problems of 5,25 "guns in anti-aircraft fire - too heavy and long shot, too tight turret.
  16. +12
    13 July 2019 10: 00
    Again, the Ripals were an outdated ship virtually devoid of air defense weapons, he had only two 76-mm cannons and that was all. This is zero.

    If Mr. Timokhin had prepared more thoroughly for the article, he would have been unspeakably surprised that at the time of the death of "Ripals" in terms of air defense was armed:
    6 x 1 - 102mm / 45 anti-aircraft guns
    3 x 8 - 40mm FOR "pom-pom"
    8 x 1 - 20mm "eslicons"
    4 x 4 - 12,7 mm anti-aircraft machine guns;
    Strange, but even if we take away the fact that 4 mm guns at the time of the destruction of the trunks were shot, then still the remaining weapons are no longer zero. wink hi
  17. +6
    13 July 2019 10: 09
    I'm sorry, but the article did not work out. Too many stretch marks and mistakes.
    And WWII experience clearly tells us that ships in bases are just targets

    but at the same time
    But it’s not so simple with databases either. In those days when the Germans managed to sink the Chervona Ukraine, the Red Crimea was hiding in Sevastopol and they never got it. Yes, and in the Baltic, the Germans (to a large extent by chance) "got" Marat, and the "October Revolution" - could not.

    и
    All the rest either died for reasons unrelated to the aircraft, or were bombed in the bases, and the same Tirpitz, for example, from the 14 attempt.

    Wow, "just a target" ... But this
    Again, the Ripals were an outdated ship virtually devoid of air defense weapons, he had only two 76-mm cannons and that was all. This is zero.

    In fact, of course, there was nothing like that. 2 * 76-mm anti-aircraft guns "Repals" had according to the initial project, but after that it was repeatedly modernized. Absolutely, I will not name the air defense of "Ripals" at the moment of the battle at Kuantan, but EMNIP was 6 * 102-mm installations, 3 eight-barreled "pom-poms", 8 * 20-mm "Erlikon", and 4 * 4 12,7 mm machine gun "Vickers". Not God knows what, of course, but ...
    1. +9
      13 July 2019 10: 47
      I'm sorry, but the article did not work out. Too many stretch marks and mistakes.


      totally agree

      the message itself is not bad, I was thinking of finding a comparative analysis of the battles with aircraft of the Americans and Japanese, at least, but here negative

      Of course, not a word about Midway - or are Nagumo’s aircraft carriers not surface ships? tady okay

      "Nati"
      "Mikuma"
      "Suzuya"
      "Kumano"
      "Tekai"
      "Tikuma"
      "Tone"

      "no, never heard"? so what
      1. +6
        13 July 2019 17: 33
        Yes, here you are to the point! Reading the article, I waited all the time for the author to "turn around" to Midway, still a significant and very indicative battle. Not wait. And by this moment the author reminded me of some Western "historians" who describe the battles at El Alamein in two volumes, and commemorate the Battle of Stalingrad in one line.
        But I liked the language by which the author sets out his theory - it reads smoothly and easily. hi
    2. 0
      13 July 2019 17: 04
      Absolutely right, watched Jane
      1. +2
        14 July 2019 11: 11
        Quote: LeonidL
        Absolutely right, watched Jane

        Thank you, it means my memory still doesn’t fail me :)
  18. +1
    13 July 2019 10: 33
    6. Musashi (Japan). A “clean” example, but also with one reservation, about which later.


    and where? wait s)
  19. +4
    13 July 2019 10: 37
    If Mr. Timokhin had thoroughly prepared for writing the article, I think it would not have been difficult for him to provide more specific information: how many and which aircraft were actually attacked by Yamato and the escort, how many torpedoes and bombs were dropped

    Well, yes, then I would have to redo the article lol
    1. +5
      13 July 2019 12: 31
      Quote: Andrey Shmelev
      if Mr. Timokhin thoroughly prepared for writing articles

      And he thoroughly prepared), how many figures had to be "cleaned up" for his theory bully
    2. +2
      13 July 2019 17: 03
      Mr. Timokhin simply did not have time to completely switch from the GAZ-51 internal combustion engines to the Yamato battleship ... But he tried!
  20. +5
    13 July 2019 11: 16
    at first thought that the author - kaptsov =)
  21. +11
    13 July 2019 11: 25
    Alexander, my advice to you ... you should not go into history !!!
    Minzag "Comintern"

    The Comintern was not a minzag, Wikipedia is lying godlessly!
    Cruiser Chervona Ukraine, leaders of Tashkent, Kharkov, destroyers Frunze, Free, Capable Flawless, Watchful, Ruthless who drowned? Aviation! Who cares how she drowned them?
    “Red Crimea” was hiding there in Sevastopol and they never got it

    Why not get it? Yes, Kr Kr didn’t hide in Sevastopol, he fought there as part of the Art Support Team!
    the Germans (to a large extent by chance) "got" Marat

    What are you talking about now?
    and the “October Revolution" - failed

    6 bombings for Oktyabrina were not in vain! And contrary to your theory, the October Revolution was saved from death by the proximity of the Kronstadt naval base!
    So, German aviation at the Black Sea theater greatly complicated the supply of Sevastopol, which ultimately led to its surrender! Without aviation, the Germans would not have achieved this!
    1. +1
      13 July 2019 17: 01
      It is completely in agreement!
    2. +2
      13 July 2019 17: 35
      Sergey, thank God, I have never looked at Wikipedia. "Comintern" - minesag, well, this is necessary! In this case, and "Bismarck" heavy cruiser. hi
    3. +2
      14 July 2019 01: 14
      The Comintern was always an old cruiser, albeit an old one.
  22. +5
    13 July 2019 11: 49
    As always, some figures are taken and global conclusions are made, without specifying the nuances. Yes, the fact that aviation flew "over the horizon" and conducted reconnaissance already gives huge advantages. You know who, where, where and in what quantity "floats". And they don't know until they see you from the mast. Then, what a strange opposition of bases and "campaigns". All ships are "required" to visit their bases. Or should they cut circles in the sea? In the mind, any base is a fortress, with an "unlimited" number of coastal aviation and air defense systems. And how to count who sunk the ship. If the aircraft found him, a couple of bombs made him lose speed and reduced the number of "guns". Then our ship came and sank it. We will not mention aviation here? Well, and much more, let's wait for the second part ... ☺
  23. +3
    13 July 2019 12: 28
    When they say that an aircraft carrier eliminated a battleship, it is not meant that the battleship alone will lose to the aircraft carrier. Is not a fact. An air group is a much more flexible weapon. Any aircraft will strike several times farther than a 406mm cannon, more powerful - a 1000kg bomb will have more explosives than any 406mm cannon. Reconnaissance of targets and situational awareness of the aircraft carrier is much higher. The battleship only has higher combat stability due to armor and the cost of delivering one ton of ammunition to the target.
    1. 0
      13 July 2019 13: 33
      I completely agree, but I have a question:

      but did not try to calculate the comparative cost of not only construction, but also maintenance between a battleship and an aircraft carrier with its air group for 25 years, say (taking into account the cost of training pilots, etc.)
      1. +1
        13 July 2019 14: 50
        Quote: Andrey Shmelev
        but did not try to calculate the comparative cost of not only construction, but also maintenance between a battleship and an aircraft carrier

        It is not necessary to consider costs, but the aging of weapons!
        1. +1
          13 July 2019 15: 46
          that's fine, let's assume that the model of the aircraft changes every five years (we are here about the realities of WWII)
          1. +1
            15 July 2019 16: 29
            Quote: Andrey Shmelev
            that's fine, let's assume that the model of the aircraft changes every five years (we are here about the realities of WWII)

            He-he-he ... so the ability to replace the main armament as it becomes obsolete, and without rebuilding the entire ship, is the main advantage of AB. The old man "Midway" started out with the "Skyraders", served for almost half a century and retired with the "Hornets" on deck.
            And with what kind of LC can this be done? wink
            1. 0
              15 July 2019 22: 48
              Hehe hehe

              As the Mogami experience showed, pulling out towers of one caliber and sticking another is a very real thing

              And replacing one tower of a heavy cruiser with another model is generally national Japanese fun

              They wanted to do a similar trick with Scharnhorst and Gneisenau

              Americans could well replace three 14-inches with two 16-inches, because this was directly prohibited by the Washington Treaty

              But to gash a corner deck on a classic aircraft carrier, expand the elevators, dramatically increase the power of the catapults, and even solve the problem of new aircraft entering the hangar :)

              Okay, joking.

              The tricks with artillery are possible different, but the air group is easier to update

              I think, however, in the 25-year perspective, the conditional Hiru is in no way cheaper than the conditional Yamato, so in the realities of the 30s the question was far from simple
              1. +1
                16 July 2019 10: 43
                Quote: Andrey Shmelev
                As the Mogami experience showed, pulling out towers of one caliber and sticking another is a very real thing

                Pull towers of one caliber and stick another - This is the replacement of "Avengers" with "Skyraders". And the transition from "skyraders" to "hornets" is pull out the towers and put rocket systems. smile
                1. 0
                  16 July 2019 10: 52
                  So for sure) than the Americans had fun on their cruisers after WWII

                  Everything that is connected with the air group: from finisher to communication during a cardinal change, the planes also need to be changed)
            2. 0
              15 July 2019 22: 48
              Hehe hehe

              As the Mogami experience showed, pulling out towers of one caliber and sticking another is a very real thing

              And replacing one tower of a heavy cruiser with another model is generally national Japanese fun

              They wanted to do a similar trick with Scharnhorst and Gneisenau

              Americans could well replace three 14-inches with two 16-inches, because this was directly prohibited by the Washington Treaty

              But to gash a corner deck on a classic aircraft carrier, expand the elevators, dramatically increase the power of the catapults, and even solve the problem of new aircraft entering the hangar :)

              Okay, joking.

              The tricks with artillery are possible different, but the air group is easier to update

              I think, however, in the 25-year perspective, the conditional Hiru is in no way cheaper than the conditional Yamato, so in the realities of the 30s the question was far from simple
      2. 0
        13 July 2019 19: 19
        Aircraft carrier is cheaper a priori. I mean flexibility and utility. Although Iowas in the 80s showed that you can shoot. Moreover, quite accurately for static purposes. But aviks were more flexible and versatile. With regards to the number and tactics of application! Avik is more flexible and multivariate. The survival of the battleship of the Second World War is a priori higher. Armor and overall finish design.
        1. +1
          13 July 2019 19: 29
          Aircraft carrier is cheaper a priori


          and if with a digital?

          for example: "to prepare a pilot, you need ... hours, to maintain his form over .... hours per year, aircraft depreciation + gasoline for this ...." x number of aircraft)
          something personally, my carrier-based aircraft does not seem to be cheap at all - there is no point in "after 3-5 hours of flying on a particular type"
  24. The comment was deleted.
    1. +3
      13 July 2019 14: 52
      You are ideologically writing your posts here, so to speak from the heart, or is this work?
      Tanks in the Red Army were none (noted, praise), the fleet leaked, no weapons.
      No offense, for fun I ask.
      1. The comment was deleted.
    2. +1
      13 July 2019 15: 03
      Quote: kllp
      The most effective of them was the lean and low-successful DShK machine gun

      what You know my friend, I’m even at a loss to say something! And why didn’t the DShK please you? And with it, and 61-K for some reason offended ....
      Quote: kllp
      In fact, the Black Sea Fleet, like the BF, was defeated and driven into the far corner of the Black Sea.

      Who is driven? And who defeated the Black Sea Fleet? what
      Quote: kllp
      Moreover, all this was done exclusively by backlash.

      recourse Ah these heroes !!! Well then! And how did they defeat these fleets?
      Quote: kllp
      It means that their aviation could not get them in any way.

      laughing But I got it!
      1. +6
        13 July 2019 17: 00
        It is interesting to the author to read Morozov’s research on the air force of the Black Sea Fleet during the defense of Sevastopol. Titanic efforts were made precisely to cover both convoys and the breakthroughs of warships. Almost the entire merchant fleet was lost from air strikes; the losses of high-speed (relatively) cargo-passenger liners were especially sensitive. This is despite the fact that German aviation was only periodically strengthened by professionals from the Mediterranean Sea. And, I think that taking into account only warships of the first rank sunk by aviation is not very correct (to put it mildly). They are by no means the majority in the fleet. The Luftwaffe was sunk by almost all modern minesweepers of the Baltic Fleet, a lot of ships on the Black Sea Fleet, including gunboats, monitors ... boats. But after all, non-sunk warships were permanently disabled by aviation, which is true for all fleets in all seas and oceans. In principle, it is not so important - the ship is sunk, or practically incapacitated for a long time.
      2. +1
        15 July 2019 16: 58
        Quote: Serg65
        You know my friend, I’m even at a loss to say something! And why didn’t the DShK please you? And with it, and 61-K for some reason offended ....

        According to the DShK, one claim is SMALL, VERY SMALL!
        But there are more claims to the naval MZA of self-defense - it simply does not exist. In the early 40s, even the Yankees and limes began to switch from 12,7 mm to 20 mm caliber. And before the end of the war, we fought with the DShK.
        By 70-K / 61-K - a good MZA ... for the army. The fleet needs two things - water cooling and normal SUAO, preferably with a director's office. Our 70-K had neither one nor the other.
        ICHH, at the beginning of the war, the heavy MZA of our fleet was at the world level - at that time, only limes could boast of normal 37-40 mm machine guns. The Germans had a semi-automatic 37 mm cannon (like our 21-K). The Americans had blueprints and technical documentation of the 40-mm Bofors, over which there was a thick mat of Chrysler designers and technologists who were trying to convert the weapon, sharpened for a small series, into conveyor production. The Japanese had nothing.
        But at the end of the war everyone (except the Japanese) had a normal heavy MZA. And we remained at the level of 1941.
        Quote: Serg65
        Who is driven?

        Backlash. "Verp" showed well what will happen to the Black Sea Fleet ships during the day in the Black Sea. ICH, the Germans drowned our EM and LD right inside the radius of the coastal Yaks.
        Quote: Serg65
        And who defeated the Black Sea Fleet?

        The joint work of the backlashes and the German army. The first were smashed directly, destroying and damaging ships. And the army team - indirectly, depriving the fleet of basing, shipbuilding and ship repair.
        1. 0
          16 July 2019 08: 52
          Welcome Alex! hi
          Quote: Alexey RA
          At the beginning of the 40's, even the Yankees and Limes began to switch from the 12,7-mm to the 20-mm caliber.

          Oh, Alex, thank God for the 40 year, our industry has mastered the production of 61-K! And then the whole war would have fought with the gun Lender! And thanks a lot to the Allies for the Vickers, Colt Browning and Erlikons!
          Quote: Alexey RA
          Germans drowned our EM and LD right inside the radius of the coastal Yaks.

          And for this "many thanks" to the glorious pilot of the Black Sea Fleet Air Force, who have decorations all over their chests!
          Quote: Alexey RA
          The joint work of the backlashes and the German army

          It’s a joint one, you’re right, without the Wehrmacht’s capture of Soviet territory, the Luftwaffe would be very limited in its actions .... that’s exactly what I wanted to say.
  25. -1
    13 July 2019 13: 03
    "bet ban on the exit of large ships in the [Black] Sea"

    Bravo, author - you were able to prove that the Luftwaffe, sinking a dozen ships, knocked the entire Red Banner Black Sea Fleet out of the war in 1942 (like the Red Banner Baltic Fleet the year before), with the exception of torpedo boats and basic trawlers.

    It turns out that the mosquito fleet in the soup with dumplings (Black and Baltic Sea) is the most rational option. Nevertheless, we have twice attacked the same rake, building large ships for soup plates, to which the Norwegian, Mediterranean, and Japanese seas have now been added due to the increased range of coastal aviation and missiles.
    1. 0
      14 July 2019 22: 14
      not only plus, but also write, support! ..... not only that, and these surface ships need very little, minesweepers only a lot more; yes, submarines need a lot and coastal aviation needs a lot, and surface attack ships only for peacetime and local tasks of three to four frigates to the ocean are enough have.
  26. +2
    13 July 2019 13: 07
    the plane is a "gun" only the range is many times greater. Well, versatility.
    In another, aircraft loses to the projectile.
    But it was the range that allowed the fleet and the coast to increase the "arm range" of the ability to inflict damage than artillery.
    In general, the symbiosis of aviation and ships / sub has led to the death of enemy ships.
    Aviation itself is also not a spherical horse - and pure fights are hardly possible to consider (without reservations)
    1. +5
      13 July 2019 14: 30
      In general, the author preferred to count spherical horses than to strategically reflect.
      Submarines sank more aircraft, which means aircraft garbage. WHAT!?
      Submarine forces act as hunters, not victims of theater of war, provided that their aircraft dominate it. So even their effectiveness directly depends on aviation. Catalins fly quietly in the absence of Japanese fighters - Japanese boats have to tight. And so the whole article ... We don’t think this example, it’s wrong ... well, then Russia should have lost most of the wars, otherwise it somehow won incorrectly. If we analyze something, then 1812 and the Second World War are not taken into account, only the Crimean one is correct.
  27. -2
    13 July 2019 14: 02
    It is quite a worthy and reasonable analysis, although some readers began to compare WWII events with current realities. I think that this is not entirely correct
  28. +1
    13 July 2019 14: 59
    I'm watching. the author has seen enough of the films "sea battle"
  29. 0
    13 July 2019 15: 39
    What if Kharkov, merciless и Capable in October 1943 were sunk by guided bombs (emnip Fritz X and Hs 293 debuted in the summer of 1943 on the Mediterranean)? As you know, by the beginning of the war, our cruisers and destroyers were not adequately armed to deal with the Luftwaffe and therefore suffered losses (semi-automatic and heavy machine guns were not effective against dive bombers). By 1943, the Fleet had equipped surface-mounted ships with anti-aircraft automatic guns, so the commanders felt relatively safe going to sea, but again suffered losses under the influence of guided bombs. EW funds to deal with the new threat were not provided.

    Conclusion - sea-based air defense systems are constantly evolving, but airborne anti-ship means are also developing in parallel. Therefore, you must constantly be aware of all the innovations of a potential enemy and, accordingly, improve your arsenal and tactics to deal with new threats. Keep up with the times so to speak. With reference to today - to establish for example whether the range of the Poliment-Redoubt air defense system is sufficient to deal with enemy aircraft armed with Harpoon anti-ship missiles?
    1. +1
      13 July 2019 16: 45
      Quite right! There is a constant competition between the means of attack and defense, and new types of weapons instantly nullify what seemed like an absolute yesterday. In principle, this is my opinion, I think that naval battles "ship-plane" or "ship-anti-ship missile ship" are possible today only in local wars. no one in their right mind would start by attacking a warship of a world power. Well, perhaps, the heroes of Absurdistan may be worthy of provocation.
    2. 0
      13 July 2019 20: 13
      drowned with ordinary fabs, and you fantasize, these planning bombs do not hit the target of a cruiser, only by accident
      1. +2
        13 July 2019 22: 57
        I do not fantasize, but make an assumption. Fritz X is not just a planning bomb, it is a radio-controlled bomb. She be healthy in accuracy, even more so than the FAB, plus the risk for the crew is minimal. If the Germans used them against the allies in the Mediterranean in the summer of 1943, it can be assumed that they could also be used against the KChF ships in the autumn of that year. Why not?

        The next question is how did the Germans manage to detect destroyers in the open sea? Speaking about radio communication? Or something else? What kind of (just don't swear) experimental radar? Gyuis-1?
        1. +1
          14 July 2019 11: 01
          Quote: Klim Chugunkin
          I do not fantasize, but make an assumption. Fritz X is not just a planning bomb, it is a radio-controlled bomb.

          And on what basis do you make this assumption? I am not fantasizing, but making an assumption. Fritz X is not just a gliding bomb, it is a radio-controlled bomb .... "With the greatest scope, UAB carrier bombers were used at Salerno and Anzio against naval amphibious groups with strong air defense, in which air raids of other types of aircraft were often unsuccessful, and against the convoys along the North African coast - British KMS, KMF and American UGS ..... At the same time, a number of disadvantages of the FX1400 were revealed.The bomb should not be used in low cloud conditions, since its minimum dropping was 4000 m. High armor penetration, which played a positive role in the cases of Roma and Worsp, turned out to be excessive even for cruisers, not to mention destroyers and merchant ships. As a rule, "Fritz" pierced the ship through and exploded only in the water under it. The Germans abandoned the use of this type of ammunition, and on November 19, 1943, the HI / KG 1C group arrived in Germany to rearm with the Hs293.
          http://www.airwar.ru/weapon/ab/fx1400.html
  30. +3
    13 July 2019 16: 39
    1. "It's all a lie!" - Really everyone lies to everyone? waited! Now the author in the likeness of Christ will reveal the truth to his disciples! "... in World War II everything was not like that. And even it was somewhat the opposite. Moreover, now it is also not so. And also rather the opposite." - A categorical and chaotic statement "no way"? and the expressions "somewhat the other way around" and "rather the other way around" are very similar to "highlighted like". If there are doubts, then why does the respected author immediately declare a lie in the forehead?
    2. "The idea that large surface ships are not able to survive in areas where enemy strike aircraft are intensively working (whether basic or deck-based, no difference) looks beautiful and mesmerizing. And there is a certain grain of truth in it. And sometimes This is exactly what it is. But there is no factual evidence sufficient to consider this idea true in all cases. And it never existed. “Sometimes” and “always” are two very different concepts. "- Here you can only will be surprised again "there is a certain grain of truth", "Sometimes it is" ... Christ asked Pilate "What is truth?" I think that absolute truth does not exist, although the author stubbornly claims to have exclusive knowledge of it.
    3. "In cases where a single surface ship or a small group of surface ships (for example, the Prince of Wales and Repals at Kuantan) collides with large, well-trained air forces, which purposefully conduct a large-scale operation aimed at destroying these particular ships , there is no chance. "... T e everything said earlier is not an absolute truth?
    4. Very often Mr. Timokhin blames the "mistakes and miscalculations" of the command of both ships and staffs, which led to death from air strikes. Again, I emphasize that the ideal commanders and commanders happen only in computer games, but not in life. There is no place for the absolute in life.
    5. "" Roma "(Italy). ... the newest weapon was used against it, against which the Italians had no means - a guided gliding bomb. That is, here is an example of the use by the Germans of technical means already belonging to another technological era." - This is another exception from the "absolute" - a new weapon. More precisely, a new generation weapon.
    6. The author burns about Crete, not recalling that the Germans were able to practically paralyze the activities of the English fleet.
    7. The author's conclusion suggests a new word in naval science and practice that remains to be learned in the sequel. "Surface ships may well fight in the absence of air supremacy of their aviation, they may well fight in the presence of enemy aircraft in the sky, and even sometimes in conditions when it dominates the air - at least locally. Their capabilities, of course, also have a limit. But this limit still has to be reached. Or rather, it is not necessary to reach it. " - Let's get a grasp: they may well fight without fighter cover, that is, they manage their own air defense, sometimes when enemy aircraft dominates. So "quite" or "sometimes"? Is it possible to reach the limit or is it better not to reach?
    8. "But maybe something has changed in modern times? After all, we are so smart, we have ZGRLS, we have missiles, planes are now supersonic ... in modern times, it's not like in the old days, right?" - Much has changed in modern times, but not everywhere and not always. If we talk about local conflicts of low intensity "Argentina - WB", "Iraq - USA", etc., then classic raids on ships are possible. If these are ships of the weak side, then their air defense, obviously outdated, will not help. If the weaker side uses new weapons, then there are options. The Argentines managed to sink the Sheffield, the container ship, and several other ships and vessels, damaging a lot, and this despite the fact that, due to the disgusting quality of ammunition, the mass of bombs and missiles simply did not explode. T e air defense and missile defense of a completely modern British fleet did not work.
    9. "Not true". - To me, some on the verge of hysteria, outbursts of emotions resemble the creations of a rezun. I think the author needs to communicate more calmly and balanced with the readers.
    We look forward to continuing.
  31. The comment was deleted.
  32. +3
    13 July 2019 17: 25
    Well, I don’t know, I read a bed to the end, the feelings are twofold, on the one hand there is an obvious attempt to pull an owl on the globe to the desired answer and another article, On the other hand, the topic is slippery and unambiguous, in principle, because the conditions are always different and there are a lot of variables in the sea there is always battle. On the 3rd and minus article
  33. -4
    13 July 2019 18: 58
    But. strange that the article is so much criticized.
    In general, the author has certain arguments.
    Aviation in the sky certainly looks terribly spectacular.
    BUT the "locust / piranha effect" is debatable.

    And an example of Yamato - yes - about anything - let's launch 11 battleships (with cover ships) to one aircraft carrier
    and look at the result.
    1. 0
      14 July 2019 01: 27
      Not everything is so simple. At what distance? What information about the enemy? How many aircraft carriers with an air group can be built at the price of a battleship (battleship - VERY expensive crap, seriously)?
  34. Hog
    +2
    13 July 2019 19: 24
    Judging by the number of comments dissatisfied with the article, we are waiting for a couple of dozen articles with the opposite opinion.
    Although no, one would have to wait, the rest have more than one comment, the hand does not rise.
  35. +3
    13 July 2019 19: 49
    An unexpectedly weak article by a usually interesting author. Even the question arose, did Timokhin really write or did the "negroes" work carelessly?

    In total, the US sank 611 Japanese battle ships of all classes


    Of them sunk:
    US Navy Submarines - 201
    Surface Ships - 112


    Is the author sure that the Japanese fleet really had 611 warships? Or did all the mobies mobilized for the needs of the empire, including fishing vessels and even sailing junks, count here? The fact that American submarines hunted the coastal traffic of the Japanese has long been known. Deck planes also hunted, but one small attack aircraft, even a small one, is unlikely to sink. And raising a strike air group for the sake of several fishing vessels is usually not accepted. The figures and comparisons given by the author are clearly incorrect.

    Well, in general. Air supremacy is a necessary, but not yet sufficient condition. To win requires the joint efforts of all armed forces. On the other hand, to win at sea without dominance in the air is unrealistic.

    About the unfortunate owl stretched to the globe five times in the comments said. :) I will not repeat myself, but this seems to be a general assessment of the article. Alas, the article did not work out.
    1. +3
      13 July 2019 20: 00
      I also have big doubts about the "blacks", the range of the author's interests is too wide and the competence is "deep" - from the GAZ-51 internal combustion engine, through fighters for the Air Force, questions of naval management, the construction of a large and not very large fleet, questions of VM history .. And all this is for comparison and edification. Here, either a genetic person like Julius Caesar, or ... It seems to me that this article on stylistics and emotional intensity could be written by a certain Fizik M.
      1. 0
        16 July 2019 08: 58
        Quote: LeonidL
        this article on style and emotional tension could write a certain Fizik M.

        This is unlikely, but the previous ones, acre of ICE, are very similar to the work of Klimov!
    2. +9
      13 July 2019 20: 34
      The figures and comparisons given by the author are clearly incorrect.


      Yes sir. it would be necessary for classes, like so:

      out of 18 heavy cruisers 16 were sunk, of which

      only by aviation 9 (56% hereinafter percentages are rounded):
      "Mikuma", "Suzuya", "Kumano", "Tone", "Takao", "Tekai", "Nachi", "Aoba", "Kinugasa"

      zadolbili whole world with the participation of aviation 1 (6%)
      "Mogami"

      artillery and torpedoes of surface ships 2 (12%)
      "Haguro", "Furutaka"

      submarines 4 (25%)
      "Atago", "Maya", "Kako", "Ashigara"

      survived 2 "Takao", "Mioko

      Conclusion 1: artillery and torpedoes of surface ships are generally useless thing wassat
      Conclusion 2: a combined strike of various forces is twice as useless as artillery and torpedoes of surface ships wassat
  36. +6
    13 July 2019 20: 07
    the author is where you saw only 2 -76mm zp at ripals, at least read about the modernization of the ship in 1936 in the book of a man from a series of warships of the world, people don’t rummage and boldly scribble articles I'm surprised by the site administration
  37. +4
    13 July 2019 21: 00
    And I really thought that the reincarnation of Kaptsov ... However, my heart senses us again "will be fed with battleships" - they say we underestimated this wunderwaffe ...
    1. +2
      14 July 2019 01: 22
      Exactly, exactly! The conclusion of the last article, most likely, will sound something like this - "We urgently need to build battleships, since they are too tough for aviation !!!" But, it's better to be patient and wait. And the author is more attentive to the facts, to double-check. Be more emotionally stable and not be like Rezun in assessing yourself and readers. Good luck!
  38. +2
    13 July 2019 21: 27
    Timokhin knows how to put forward the right thesis in general and substantiate it with highly controversial arguments. Although some arguments are quite reasonable.
    1. +3
      14 July 2019 01: 25
      How can very controversial arguments be reasonable ??? Well, this is about how Rezun defends his "theses" of Stalin's preparation for a war against Hitler in July 1941, relying either on Goebbels's lies, or on fiction, or on rigging and distortion of facts. It is doubtful that it is possible to draw a reasonable and correct conclusion, to create the correct concept, based on, to put it mildly, incomplete and highly controversial (as you noted) arguments.
      1. +4
        14 July 2019 15: 13
        Timokhin has controversial arguments, there are reasonable arguments. These are not the same reasons.
        It is doubtful that it is possible to draw a reasonable and correct conclusion, to create the right concept, based on, to put it mildly, incomplete and very controversial (as you have noticed) arguments.

        So Timokhin never does in his articles. He is the information lobbyist of one of the shipyards (personally my opinion). At first, the main thesis is expressed, then argument underlies it. Since the article bakes like pies, the quality of the argument does not bother.
  39. 0
    13 July 2019 23: 07
    The conclusion is that the survivability of ships with only a displacement of more than 8000 tons, as well as with the presence in the air defense of predominantly 100-mm ZAU, and then 76-mm, 45-mm, 37-mm, with a total number of at least 15 ZAU
    Survivors:
    Svetlana Ave., Red Crimea 8 kT, 6-100; 4-45, 10-37 = 20 ZAU
    Svetlana Ave., Red Caucasus 9 kT, 12-100, 4-45, 2-76, 10-37, 6-20 = 34 ZAU
    Easy. cruiser Ave. 26 9,7 CT, 6-100, 9-45 = 15 ZAU
    Easy. cruiser ave. 26 bis. 8-85, 6-45, 10-37 = 24 ZAU
    Easy. cruiser ave. 26 Voroshilov 9,5 kT, 6-100, 6-45 = 12 ZAU (exception)
    The dead:
    Svetlana Ave., Chervona Ukraine 8 CT, 4-76, 6-37 = 10 ZAU (-)
    Esc leader destroyers Ave. 1 3 CT, 2-76, 4-37 = 6 ZAU (-)
    1. +3
      15 July 2019 17: 26
      Quote: Romario_Argo
      Svetlana Ave., Chervona Ukraine 8 CT, 4-76, 6-37 = 10 ZAU (-)

      Where did the 76-mm come from on "Chervona Ukraine"? Since 1939, there have been 100-mm Minisini there.
      You can throw out Vika as a source right away - there really are 2 x 2 76 mm ZAU 39-K in the table. And in the text - 100 mm sparks: smile
      During the war, the cruiser "Red Caucasus" installed two paired 100-mm installations, taken from the “Chervona of Ukraine”.

      And there were no 37 mm assault rifles on the KRL - at that time there weren’t enough even for Project 26 and 26 bis.
      In reality, the "Chervona Ukraine" was: 3x2 100-mm Minisini, 6 45-mm 21-K, 7 12,7-mm DShK.
  40. +1
    14 July 2019 00: 16
    She also showed that large surface ships are easily destroyed by combat aircraft, which, for example, entailed the disappearance large surface ships - battleships and heavy cruisers
    Peter the Great is called the "admiral's boat" not because of the size, actually. And the aircraft carrier is a rather large vessel.
    Battleship is an artillery ship. But artillery lost to missiles (anti-ship missiles - in particular). First of all - in range.
  41. +3
    14 July 2019 06: 54
    Even taking into account the fact that the initial statements were given in a deliberately exaggerated form, the author himself convincingly showed that the German aviation (and not the sea, but the land) actually drove the Black Sea Fleet into bases in the absence of a German fleet.
    The fact that the losses at the beginning of the war were smaller, so the Germans primarily hunted for vehicles, and not for warships.
    And, of course, no one drowned ships from the first bomb, otherwise there would be no fleet in a week.
    But, on the other hand, if you look at the ratio of the number of sorties and the number of downed planes, it is obvious that the danger to the pilots was not very high, anti-aircraft fire was conducted as barrage mainly.
    The Americans, perhaps, had better results, thanks to a very good universal 127 mm gun and excellent HMS, but also if Wikipedia is not lying
    the average consumption of shells for one downed aircraft was 1000 pieces. The average survivability of the barrel 4600 shots.

    Aviation has several overwhelming advantages over ships - awareness, range of strike, initiative, the possibility of concentration of forces, and during the war this was manifested en masse.
    And after the spread of airborne radars during the war, and even more so.
    1. 0
      14 July 2019 17: 16
      So the Germans primarily hunted for vehicles, and not for warships.

      Why do you think so?
  42. +1
    14 July 2019 22: 02
    "In fairness, it is worth noting those who" spoil the statistics "- the British destroyers. This is what the aviation crumbled, crumbled so. But, here again specific moments - the Britons often climbed where exactly the large aviation forces were waiting for them, for example, during the German capture Crete. Whoever is on the rampage ends up getting it sooner or later, there's nothing to be done about it! " I respect Timokhin for the truth, so still a lot of ships died in the bases ... and there are not many in the sea ... Timokhin writes, they would also perish at sea and would perish even faster, because there are no land anti-aircraft units in the sea guarding ports and separated from the front-line tasks for this ... but since they ended up in the bases, they died there ... Timokhin needs to stop criticizing the military marshals and Stalin, who signed the order of the headquarters on the prohibition of ships defenseless against aviation, and not try to rewrite history retroactively denying the obvious facts .. And the facts speak of the mass death of slow-moving bulky surface ships, from mines, small submarines and airplanes of that time.
    1. 0
      14 July 2019 22: 19
      And the facts say the mass death of low-speed bulky surface ships, from mines, small submarines and airplanes of that time.

      Something you like in a bunch of everything interfere: and submarines and "airplanes", and mines. And, judging by the Soviet fleet, there is no mass death: 2/3 of the fleet remained in the ranks and completed the combat mission, despite the loss of the main naval bases, the dominance of enemy aircraft in the air and, let's say, outdated equipment at that time.
      1. 0
        14 July 2019 22: 22
        and these are 2/3 that hid in the bases? ....... it is clear ....... the order of the rate saved them from inglorious death
        1. -1
          14 July 2019 22: 42
          These 2/3 were not hiding in the bases, but:
          1) In the Baltic, they formed the backbone of the counter-battery artillery. And they coped with this work very well. "Dora" all sorts of Nazis were forced to drag, including because of the fleet.
          2) On the Black Sea in the early days of the war, the offensive of the South Army Group was delayed. Yes, they lost the destroyer, but they lost mainly because of their own mistakes, moreover, the enemy aircraft did nothing to the raiders;
          Carried out the supply of besieged Sevastopol;
          Carried out numerous landings and supply of landings
          Not allowed the Germans to carry out a single major landing
          3) Northern convoys were posted in the Northern Fleet (and this is in the zone of domination of enemy aircraft).
          The fleet completed almost all the tasks assigned to it
          1. 0
            14 July 2019 23: 01
            Well, why ships in the port? then it’s better than an armored train! As for escort convoys, it was a mosquito fleet, but a small amount of NK is really necessary for escort convoys and fishing protection
            1. +2
              14 July 2019 23: 36
              Ships in the port did not stand (with the exception of battleships). Destroyers and cruisers actively fought. The fact that operations on fire operations in the Black Sea Fleet were few (although they were and were more effective than the actions of Soviet aviation, for example) - so the level of training in the first place of the fleet command left much to be desired, unfortunately. In each major operation - unequivocal gross miscalculations of the fleet command.
              1. 0
                15 July 2019 10: 10
                having effective weapons is easy to fight, if weapons are ineffective then everything turns out badly, and blaming everything only on mediocre command in WWII, even in WWII, even in Tsushima, is simply to deny objective facts, namely the objective inefficiency of large surface ships. And by the way, where did destroyers fight in the Baltic?
                1. +1
                  15 July 2019 21: 26
                  it is simply to deny the objective facts, namely the objective inefficiency of large surface ships

                  Sorry this is your speculation and not the facts.
                  The mere threat of using Tirpitz led to the defeat of the PQ-17 and the disruption of supplies for six months.
                  Although the attacks of the Black Sea Fleet on Constanta were unsuccessful in terms of losses, BUT they fulfilled the assigned task - they disrupted the supply of fuel to Army Group South.
                  And by the way, where destroyers fought in the Baltic
                  There are wives where the whole fleet is: counter-battery fighting near Leningrad, support for the supply of the Oranienbaum bridgehead, support for fire during the Krasnoselsko-Ropshinsky operation.
                  1. -1
                    15 July 2019 21: 41
                    Quote: Newone
                    supply support for the Oranienbaum bridgehead,

                    You have not been seen in the Baltic, there are miserable depths in places you can walk on ford and direct visibility to Oranienbaum, there certainly were no need for ships.
                    And as for Porozhkov and Ropsha, it is very doubtful to me that at such distances it is possible to ensure accuracy of hits, the swamps are extensive there and it is possible to throw shells there, of course, but why?
                    1. 0
                      16 July 2019 00: 49
                      You have not been to the Baltic
                      It’s not that I haven’t been to Leningrad, I was born there and lived for some time. There is enough space for ships there.
                      I’m very doubtful that at such distances you can ensure accuracy of hits,
                      You haven’t heard about the adjustment of fire, I guess.
                      the swamps are extensive there and it is certainly possible to throw shells there, but why?
                      undermine enemy defense nodes, art. position, just to get to sit in shelters when attacking, not?
                      1. 0
                        16 July 2019 10: 33
                        Quote: Newone
                        There is enough space for ships there.

                        so ...... we open the map, look at the depths and determine if there are places for ships larger than a motor boat or a small boat outside the sea channel and the water area of ​​the Kronstadt port (Bronka port does not count, it wasn’t before), then we look at the draft of the destroyers and compare the numbers ..... next we think, think the arithmetic of the first grade of elementary school ..... we think more ..... why did we dig a sea channel in the middle of the Neva Bay? It’s great when the head is on the shoulders, it will come in handy more than once or twice, and dexterity and sensitivity of the ears will help not only when catching mice .....
                      2. 0
                        16 July 2019 18: 52
                        So open and look at the depth map, and then you will give tips that are much more applicable to you.
      2. 0
        16 July 2019 09: 07
        Quote: Newone
        judging by the Soviet fleet, mass death is not observed

        Almost all Baltic destroyers were killed and almost all from mines.
  43. +2
    15 July 2019 15: 35
    How many ships, the commanders of which did not make obvious mistakes in planning the march, were sunk by German aircraft at sea and on the move?
    ONE. Squadron "Impeccable".

    That is, the author tactfully forgets about "Verp". But the first raid on the LD and two EVs was when the ships were sailing at a speed of 28 knots.

    Yes, and “Tashkent” reached the base by a miracle - another half hour, and they would have finished it off.
  44. +1
    15 July 2019 17: 03
    There are many examples, and this is not only the battle of Kuantan, this is the loss of the British during the evacuation of troops from Crete, this is our "rainy day" on October 6, 1943, and much more.

    Hehe hehe ... just Crete showed that big ships can survive under constant air strikes. 8 air corps, the elite of backlash, operating in the range, without any opposition from fighter aircraft by limes, could not sink a single LC. KR, EM - yes, drowned. But LK survived.
  45. 0
    16 July 2019 12: 30
    Didn't the Red Crimea have a Minisini system with the POISO Galileo?
    I have doubts that it was the most modern ship, regarding air defense, the Soviet fleet for 1941.
  46. 0
    16 July 2019 16: 42
    on the red crimea minisini anti-aircraft gun in the photo?
    I thought they were only put on a series of Kirov cruisers
    1. 0
      23 July 2019 19: 28
      Quote: yehat
      on the red crimea minisini anti-aircraft gun in the photo?
      I thought they were only put on a series of Kirov cruisers

      They wanted to put them on the Kirovs. But instead of "Minisini" pr. 26 and 26-bis received domestic B-34. And Sparks "Minisini" were put on "Svetlana".
  47. 0
    16 July 2019 16: 45
    Quote: vladimir1155
    it is the objective inefficiency of large surface ships

    1 cruiser Aurora, far from the coolest ship, in a couple of hours is able to practically level the ground of St. Petersburg if it starts firing from the raid.
    The colonial fleet in China very quickly forced the Chinese forts to a truce.
    The Germans during WWII came a short distance to the distance of fire and the English city was gone.

    Do not underestimate the power of naval artillery.
  48. ABM
    0
    17 July 2019 15: 03
    Quote: mmaxx
    maneuverability in 3 dimensions


    two dimensions are understandable; judging by the fact that aircraft carriers do not know how to fly - the third is down, to the bottom?
  49. 0
    17 July 2019 22: 58
    and. The statistics of the Soviet fleet on experienced raids, dropped air bombs and especially downed aircraft are overstated, because after the war, it was not verified with German data.

    On the other hand, a 30 knot destroyer is a really difficult target for a dive bomber. He needs to go strictly from the stern and aim at the lead point in the course of the ship. The destroyer commander only needs to change course at the moment the bomb detaches from the plane. But if "Tashkent" is caught by a group of five "Val", "Keith" and "Zero". So that at the same time mastheads, torpedo bombers from different directions and fighters help with guns.

    b. British naval aviation is generally a parody of the branch of the armed forces, especially deck aviation (and it seems they did not have coastal aviation). Recall that the aircraft carriers did not have a permanent deck wing. Naval pilots all the time lived on the coast and trained from coastal airfields, and on aircraft carriers they assembled a team group before going out to sea, and they could not always recruit it to the regular one. Well, the main plane "Swordfish" - a ridiculous rattler from the First World War.

    at. 201 warships sunk by American submarines, most likely in the majority - auxiliary cruisers, which the Japanese used as vehicles.

    Anti-aircraft armament "Repals" in December 1941:

    6x1 4 "universal
    3x8 40 mm pom-pom
    4x4 12,7 mm machine guns
    8x1 20 mm "Erlikonov"
    1. 0
      18 July 2019 00: 11
      The statistics of the Soviet fleet on experienced raids, dropped air bombs and especially downed aircraft are overstated, because after the war, it was not verified with German data.

      Why? Only Ubermensts from Germany themselves have the right to consider their losses?
      1. 0
        18 July 2019 18: 15
        Quote: Newone
        Only Ubermensts from Germany themselves have the right to consider their losses?


        Naturally, how could it be otherwise? The Germans are better aware of their German losses, the Russians are better aware of the losses of their Russians, the Americans are their Americans, the Japanese are Japanese, etc. If we try to write the history of the war in the Pacific Ocean, estimating the Japanese losses according to the American military reports of those years, uncorrected according to the post-war data, we get wild nonsense, inconsistencies. Or American - in Japanese: every American aircraft carrier ship will be sunk two or three times.

        Soviet pickles wrote such a version that the Germans de tore pages from logbooks when torpedoes from Soviet boats hit. Hiding means not only from enemy intelligence, but also from their own superiors. It's time to get away from this soviet insanity.
    2. 0
      23 July 2019 19: 36
      Quote: Sasha_rulevoy
      English naval aviation is generally a parody of the branch of service, especially deck-based (and it seems they didn’t have coastal).

      Uh-huh ... and "Gneisenau" torpedoed itself right in the harbor of Brest. smile
      It was the basic naval aviation (more precisely, the aircraft of the Coastal Command of the Air Force) that the limes were quite strong - reconnaissance, PLO aircraft, torpedo bombers, cannon and then rocket attack aircraft. In the middle of the war, they began to unite torpers and attack aircraft into strike wings, which were capable of independently suppressing the air defense of the German convoy and sinking its ships.
      Joubert wanted to form several wings armed with Bofayters. 2 or 3 squadrons in the wing were supposed to conduct torpedo attacks, and the rest - to fight anti-aircraft guns. Each wing consisted of a combined detachment of torpedo bombers and attack aircraft trained to act as a whole. They had to achieve complete synchronization and mutual understanding in their actions. Previously, this was simply impossible. Even between the Beauforts and the Bofayters in Malta there was no such close connection.
    3. 0
      9 August 2019 10: 27
      Quote: Sasha_rulevoy
      Anti-aircraft armament "Repals" in December 1941:

      6x1 4 "universal
      3x8 40 mm pom-pom
      4x4 12,7 mm machine guns
      8x1 20 mm "Erlikonov"

      Those. very wretched for such a huge ship, not at all better than our Baltic battleships.
  50. 0
    18 July 2019 11: 55
    and kamikaze? and in general, with all due respect to the author, his article implicitly only confirms what he wanted to refute
  51. 0
    18 July 2019 14: 58
    A classic example is the cruiser Chicago sunk by Japanese air attack on January 30, 1943. During air attacks carried out at dusk, the Japanese managed to sink the American heavy cruiser Chicago and severely damage the destroyer, the rest of the American force was forced to retreat to the southern Solomon Islands.
    1. +1
      23 July 2019 19: 41
      Quote: Qiman Kyrivo
      During air attacks carried out at dusk, the Japanese managed to sink the American heavy cruiser Chicago and severely damage a destroyer; the rest of the American formation was forced to retreat to the southern Solomon Islands.

      "Chicago" was sunk in two stages. He survived the first two air torpedoes that hit him during the night attack - and first the Louisville SRT, and then the Navajo rescue tug, dragged him to the base for repairs. But the next day the raids resumed - and the towed Chicago caught 4 more air torpedoes. The SRT could no longer withstand such a blow - and the ship sank.
  52. 0
    22 July 2019 18: 08
    A strange attempt to convince people to take bronze axes instead of sabers to war. There was a time when the main battery towers were in charge. There was a time when air wings from the Akagi and Hornet were taxiing. Now they are in charge of anti-ship missiles, whose effectiveness in destroying aircraft (the entire “air fleet” with one blow to the bottom) is being tried to be leveled with the help of missile defense (not air defense from WWII, but missile defense!). We'll have to wait and see what the next round of the arms race will be like. Due to the development of means of intercepting anti-ship missiles, there is an illusion that “battleships are ruling again.” But this is an illusion, since we are talking about three to four dozen minutes, during which a ship equipped with air defense/missile defense systems will remain alive, and the main gravedigger here will be anti-ship missiles, not aviation, except perhaps swarms of UAVs (which has not yet come to that). A battleship is a beautiful thing, and it is clear that many of these beauties are aesthetically much more attractive than the “aircraft”, but it’s like the armor of knights in a museum. Romance! So yes, a battleship is better than an aircraft carrier in one way: its death in battle is only its death. When an aircraft carrier is sunk, its entire order remains meaningless, at least until all ships of the order are re-oriented to new goals/tasks separately. Both species have outlived their usefulness. The hero of the new time is something like the “Leader” project: 3-4 such destroyers of the ocean zone + 2 submarines - this is a new “warrant”.
  53. 0
    24 July 2019 12: 29
    I read the article and was very surprised by the author’s obvious desire to pass off wishful thinking as reality. Everything is very subjective and extremely ambiguous conclusions. Yes, at the time of his death, Ripulse had a completely different composition of anti-aircraft artillery than the two unfortunate 76 mm caliber guns (with them he entered service and not with them alone, there were four more 47 mm Hotchkiss system and five Maxim system machine guns) , but this is so...by the way!
  54. 0
    31 July 2019 16: 50
    Quote: unBEARable
    One could not have expected such a tight pull on the poor owl from this author.

    I just cheated and picked up a convenient globe, although this one turned out to be too big for an owl...,
  55. 0
    31 July 2019 16: 52
    Quote: andrew42
    The hero of the new time is something like the “Leader” project: 3-4 such destroyers of the ocean zone + 2 submarines - this is the new “warrant”

    But what about fighting dolphins? The leader is nervously smoking on the sidelines!
  56. 0
    5 August 2019 09: 45
    Pearl Harbor was forgotten in the statistics)
  57. +1
    9 August 2019 11: 17
    Quote: Serg65
    Quote: andrewkor
    I didn’t find anything about the losses he suffered

    Because Sevastopol was cherished like the apple of an eye, unlike Marat and the October Revolution!

    15 military campaigns, including the besiege of Sevastopol with supplies, shot the barrels of their main caliber guns at the German army, also most of them near Sevastopol and this was all during the period of the dominance of German aviation in 1941-42. What's the apple of your eye that you've been saving?
    They took care of the battleship at the end when the war on the Black Sea ended.