Real contribution. What role did the Navy play in the Great Patriotic War?

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Perhaps there is no more controversial topic in the newest military stories of our country, rather than the role of the Navy fleet The USSR in the Great Patriotic War and in the final results of the Second World War for our country as a whole.

What kind of opinions on this subject do not have to listen sometimes. “The fleet is the most expensive way to produce infantry”, the evacuation of Tallinn with huge losses on mines, the loss of three warships at once on October 1943, XNUMX from the actions of the German aviationthat could have been easily avoided - that’s what military history buffs usually recall. More erudite citizens will recall the unsuccessful raid on Constanta, the landing troops in the Baltic who died in 1941 in the Baltic Sea, the network barriers at the exit from the Gulf of Finland, the Armenia steamer, the frequent fact of the lack of information about shelling from the sea in battle logs of German formations, in the case when, according to our data, such a shelling was fought. The history of the Second World War fleet, according to some figures, seems to be the story of the beating of large and numerous, but stupid formations by the small forces of well-trained German pilots and even smaller German allies: Italians on the Black Sea, Finns on the Baltic.



Real contribution. What role did the Navy play in the Great Patriotic War?

Our war at sea was like that. Marines of the Northern Fleet on boats, they are covered from above by the British 151-fighter RAF wing on Harikkeins.


Someone knows that German submarines freely operated in the North off the Soviet coast until the very end of the war, and it was impossible to do something with them.

The most advanced will remember how the fleet evaded the opportunity to attack the Japanese detachment of surface ships in 1945 and get at least some combat experience in naval battles. Even quite serious public figures, employees and leaders of domestic think tanks (we won’t poke a finger at respected people for the time being), quite seriously uphold the thesis that the Navy was a burden in that war. However, more often for their statements are seen clashes of group interests in the Ministry of Defense, associated with the sharing of the military budget. Why are there social activists, even many sailors, sad, agree with this point of view. And it begins: “The Russian fleet has never really helped all the money to the ground forces, we cannot with developed marine nations,” and so on until the thesis is voiced by the inability of the Russians to have effective naval forces in general. On the de facto cultural inferiority.

Meanwhile, the real history of the Great Patriotic War speaks about directly opposite things. It is only necessary to throw off the blinders from the eyes. Moreover, that historical lesson is still very relevant.

To begin with, it is worth looking at the objective state of the Navy before the war. First, in the USSR by the 1941, the year simply did not exist in a sufficient number of competent naval command personnel. After 1937 of the year and the inability of the Navy to ensure the safe delivery of cargo to Spain (order to deploy fleet forces in the Mediterranean Sea, I.V. Stalin was given, but was sabotaged), as well as mass incompetence of naval commanders in the fleets , Stalin staged a grandiose "sweep" in the Navy, accompanied by mass repressions and the nomination of political appointees to command posts who had no idea whatsoever about naval activities. Naturally, this did not help. The level of training of command personnel continued to fall, the accident rate grew. In fact, the fleet began to exist as a fleet and, at the very least, to prepare for hostilities only from the spring of 1939, when Stalin firstly decided to appoint N.G. Kuznetsova, People's Commissar of the Navy, and secondly, when the repressions flywheel in the Navy went to idle, and the sailors stopped fevering with mass and sudden arrests. It was only in May that 1939 began to put in order the normative documents concerning combat training, charters and instructions.

N.G. Kuznetsova was long taken to idealize. Then, in recent years, on the contrary, a wave of critical publications began to be observed, and attempts to nearly dispel the cult of the personality of the admiral. It must be said that the brilliant naval commander by world standards N.G. Kuznetsov, of course, was not. But his contribution to the pre-war Naval construction is strictly positive. His post-war ideas about naval construction were not quite adequate to the situation. Nevertheless, he was, for example, the most consistent and competent supporter of the creation of an aircraft carrier fleet in the USSR. In general, he was a talented leader, whose role in the development of our fleet is certainly positive. As a significant military commander in charge of the course of hostilities, he did not show himself, but, frankly, he didn’t have such opportunities, including during the war. But it was not his fault, to which we will return.

Thus, the first factor - the fleet had only two years to put itself in order after the era of incompetent leaders, and cruel repression. At the same time, the experience of the past could not be used by the fleet - the revolution led to a break in the historical continuity, including with personnel. All the often mentioned failures of naval commanders - from the inability to provide air defense of ships on the Black Sea, to the inability to stop German artillery fire from the sea in the 1945 in the Baltic - they are from there.

The second important factor that determined the specifics of the military path of the Navy in a war was the inability of the national military science to correctly determine the face of a future war. It is not necessary, apparently, to stigmatize domestic theorists with shame. Nobody, except Germans, who could correctly unite the theory and practice of the "blitzkrieg", and having very limited resources, put the British Empire and the USSR on the brink of military defeat at the same time, simultaneously "reeling on caterpillars" France , also considered then a world power, and several smaller countries.

And this inability to determine what the future war would be fraught with, played a truly fatal role. But on the other hand, who on June 21 of 1941 could determine that the German army would reach Moscow, the Volga and Novorossiysk? How was it possible to prepare for this? Some may argue that the experience of the Civil War and intervention was the same, but the fact is that at the beginning of the forties the political reality in the country and the assessment of the Red Army by the political leadership and society made such a way of thinking impossible.

Thus, the nature of the future war a priori excluded the possibility for the Navy to prepare for it: it was almost impossible to imagine the real course of events even after the war began, and therefore it was impossible to prepare for these events. This is a very important fact that is usually overlooked. The Navy did not prepare for such a war, which had to be entered. One of the consequences of this was the inadequate ship crew. As a result, the tasks that the Navy carried out the entire war were often carried out by obviously worthless means.

The third factor was the low technical and technological development of both the fleet and the country as a whole. So, neither Soviet submarines, nor Soviet torpedoes in developed countries simply would not be considered as weaponfit for war. The only question that could really arise from a German or British submariner, while familiarizing himself with Soviet submarines and weapons, is: “How can one fight on this?”.

With surface ships, the situation was somewhat better, at least they were not so much worse than the world average ... but worse all the same. It is worth remembering that the USSR began 1941-th year was a technically backward country. Only in the course of the war were individual samples of weapons created, in a number of parameters that surpassed the western one — but precisely that individual samples, and precisely that in a number of parameters. Fleet in this case, no luck. He spent the whole war with outdated technology. Only in naval aviation, over time, positive changes began, mainly related to the lend-lease supplies (although not only with them, of course).

The Germans in the war, though not massively, but used jet aircraft, and anti-tank rocket launchers, ballistic and cruise missiles, guided bombs, by means of submarine war, the same USSR caught up to Kriegsmarine many years after 1945. In general, the technical level of Germany was much higher than the Soviet. With the Allies, it was also generally — for example, we didn’t have such amphibious capabilities that any American tank landing ship had on the 1942, when the Andrew flag was raised on the Ivan Gren BDK, the portable radios that the US military did use in the early forties In general, the Soviet Army never even waited in principle, we had armored personnel carriers only in the fifties, more than ten years later than the Wehrmacht and the US Army, and so on, there were many such examples. And it was necessary to fight in such conditions. And not only sailors.

This undoubtedly influenced the course of the hostilities and their results.

The fourth, and very important factor that had a truly fatal significance, was that neither before the war, nor during it, was the place of the Navy in the general command and control system of the armed forces.

So, for the first half of 1941 of the year, the Navy received from the General Staff of the Red Army only ONE directive - "On the preparation of communications for the interaction of units and formations of the Red Army and the Navy" from March 11 of 1941. And that's it! There was a feeling that the country was preparing for defense separately from the fleet.

A few days after the start of the war, the fleets were handed over to the command of strategic areas, and after their liquidation, the fleets began to submit to fronts. In fact, the Main Naval Headquarters "fell out" of the fleet management system. But the ground commanders could not properly put the tasks to the sailors.

In 1998, a book of a group of authors was published under the general editorship of the then commander-in-chief of the Russian Navy, Admiral V.I. Kuroyedov “The main headquarters of the Navy: history and modernity. 1696 — 1997 ». In particular, it states:

“In practice, the command of the Navy was offered the role of a passive observer of the development of the situation in the fleets, although with the start of military operations, the NMS regularly received operational reports from the fleets and flotillas. N.G. Kuznetsov considered it his duty to control the correctness of the command of the unions that were operatively subordinate to the maritime groups of the Red Army, he understood the tasks assigned to them by the appropriate military councils, and monitor how these tasks are being solved. Operational orders, directives on behalf of the People's Commissar of the Navy and the chief of the GMG were almost not published. Acting on the instructions of the People's Commissar, the leaders of the General Staff tried to obtain in advance information from the General Staff about plans to use fleet forces in joint operations, in order to orient the executives before issuing the Bids directive. However, this zeal was not always met with understanding, moreover - under the pretext of achieving secrecy of preparing operations with the involvement of fleet forces, the staff of the General Staff deliberately restricted the access of the Navy representatives to relevant information. Occasionally, incidents such as the one that occurred in 1941 on the Moonsund Islands, when troops defending on Fr. Ezel, the disposition of the General Staff were subordinated to one front, and on about. Dago - to another. The unfortunate outcome of defensive actions ultimately depended on the development of a strategic situation on the entire Soviet-German front, but the experience of the war suggests that in this case it would be more correct to assign responsibility for the defense of the archipelago to the Red Banner Baltic Fleet in peacetime. The possibilities for the direct influence of the People's Commissar of the Navy on decision-making in the field of operational leadership by the forces narrowed significantly after July 10 1941 disbanded the Headquarters of the High Command, and it was not included in the Supreme Command Headquarters.

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In 1943, the nature of the combat activities of the operating fleets and fleets changed qualitatively. With the transition of the Armed Forces of the Soviet Union to a strategic offensive, it acquired a planned character, it became possible to set tasks for the unions for the entire campaign or strategic operation, giving the command of the operational-strategic, and in some cases the operational level of leadership to set the tasks for subordinate troops and forces . In connection with this, conditions emerged for the transfer of control in matters of the use of fleet forces along the line of the Supreme Command headquarters — Commissar of the Navy-Fleet. However, the inertia of the operational management system that was formed during the first period of the war had long been felt. The People's Commissar of the Navy still did not have the rights of the commander-in-chief and therefore could not fully control the operations of the fleets. This was aggravated by the fact that he was still not part of the Supreme Command Headquarters. From the end of 1942 N.G. Kuznetsov, attracting GMS Navy, tried to change this situation. The first operational directive of the People's Commissar of the Navy to the Military Council of the Red Banner Baltic Fleet was signed only on 13 August 1943. Prior to this, the fleet was solving tasks that were put to him by separate orders of the commander-in-chief of the North-Western forces or the front command. In April, 1943, Chief of the General Staff of the General Staff of the Navy, Rear Admiral V.L. Bogdenko wrote in his official note: “During the war, the Navy’s NMS was never oriented by the General Staff on the further course of hostilities and the arising tasks of fleets and flotillas. Without this, the headquarters was in a difficult position when setting targets for fleets, calculating the required number of ships and weapons, and calculating the development of basic and airfield construction. ” The note also noted that all attempts by the NSS GMSH to get at least a tentative data at the General Staff about the plans of the forthcoming operations and the use of Navy forces in them turned out to be unsuccessful. At the same time V.L. Bogdenko argued that quite often the responsible officers of the General Staff did not even imagine the operational capabilities of the fleets and did not know how to properly use their forces, taking into account only the obvious capabilities of the fleet forces in providing direct fire support to ground forces (the number of ship and coastal artillery, the number of serviceable bombers, attack aircraft and fighters). From the memorandum of V.L. Bogdenko began work on the substantiation of the re-organization of the naval command and control system.

The General Staff did not support the proposal of the command of the Navy at the beginning. ”


Thus, in those very years when the Navy led high-intensity military operations, he was out of a clear and well-thought system of command.

Similar problems have occurred with the supply. So, during the evacuation of the German troops from the Crimea, naval aviation sometimes sat without fuel and ammunition for several days. It is not surprising that the Germans managed to take out a significant part of the troops from the Crimea - they simply had nothing to drown. The surface ships, by that time, not only did the orders be shackled to the ports, and technically they were already in an almost incapacitated state, with "dead" cars and guns shot by laners. And the aircraft suddenly sat on the "hungry ration." The same problems arose in the Baltic Fleet.

It is difficult to judge what could be achieved by the available forces if they were differently controlled.

The naval control system was put in order only 31 March 1944 of the year.

In his book of memoirs “Steep turns” N.G. Kuznetsov gives a very vivid example of how the command of the Red Army really related to the fleet. When on the night of 21 on 22 on June 1941 of the year, Kuznetsov turned to NGS Zhukov for instructions, they simply dismissed him.

What could be achieved by entering the war with such prerequisites?

About the failures listed at the beginning of the article, many people remember today. But let's look at what these failures distract attention from.

The first terrible day of 22 June 1941, the Navy met in full combat readiness. Faced with the absence of any orders and realizing that before the start of the war there were only a few hours left, N.G. Kuznetsov trivially phoned the fleets, and brought them into full combat by simple verbal orders by telephone. Colossal contrast with the army immediately lost control! As a result, the attacks that the Germans carried out against the Soviet naval bases that day ended in nothing.

In the very first days of the war, Navy airplanes retaliated against Romania. The bombing of Berlin in 1941 was also carried out by naval aircraft. From a military point of view, these were injections, but they had important moral significance for the Soviet troops and population.

Fleet always left last. The army left Odessa, but the Primorsk group of troops (later - the Primorsk army) continued to fight in the environment, moreover, the Navy immediately gave it serious support, delivering reinforcements, and delivering supplies, and landing a large tactical landing force. in Grigorievka. And this was not an isolated case. Could the Maritime army fight if it had been cut off from the sea?

When the resistance turned out to be absolutely hopeless, more than 80 000 thousands of Odessa defenders were evacuated to the Crimea.

These operations became a kind of “prologue” to what the fleet was engaged in throughout the war. Having no significant enemy at sea, the Navy completely expectedly launched its actions against the coast, especially since the army was rapidly rolling back, leaving the enemy one strategically important city after another.

This is a very important point in assessing the effectiveness of the actions of the Navy - the ground forces were unable to protect coastal cities from land attack, which led to the loss of fleets (except for the North) bases, repair and production facilities. Not the fleet surrendered Odessa or the same Crimea.

Similarly to the army, the Red Army air forces were unable to stop the Luftwaffe, and all fleet operations were carried out with the full domination of the enemy in the air.

It makes no sense to describe in detail the course of the fighting in 1941-1945 - many books and articles have been written about this. To assess the role the Navy played in defending the country, we will briefly describe what they did, all the more, we know the conditions under which it was done.


Kerch-Feodossiysk landing operation. The largest in our military history


Black Sea Fleet. After the evacuation of the defenders of Odessa, the Navy conducted operations to supply the group cut off from the main forces of the Red Army in the Crimea. After the collapse of the defense of the peninsula, the Kerch-Theodosia landing operation was strategically important for the entire course of the war. 33 000 man of amphibious assault was landed, and in the aftermath still almost 50 000 man with equipment and armament was delivered to Crimea. It would have been crucial - without this operation, Sevastopol would have been quickly taken and, at the height of the first battle for Rostov, the command of the Army Group South would have at its disposal a fully equipped 11 th field army with serious combat experience and experienced command. Which in reality had no effect on the battles for Rostov.

It is clear that the whole course of the fighting on the southern flank of the Soviet-German front would be different in the end. For example, the Germans could begin the summer offensive on the Caucasus in 1942 with a much more favorable position. As a result, they could move the wave further than in reality. The latter, in turn, could lead to the loss of the Caucasus, and the entry into the war on the side of the “axis” of Turkey ... and even without this, German aircraft in 1942-m bombed ports in the Caspian Sea. The loss of the Caucasus would have led to the loss of oil and the loss of at least one third of allied supplies of equipment and strategic materials. This would call into question the possibility of continuing the war in principle.

Instead, it turned out fighting for the Kerch Peninsula, and hundreds of days of defense of Sevastopol, the supply of which completely fell on the shoulders of the fleet.



Marines land in Crimea, 1941 year. Instead of the landing ship, the mobilized vessel, apparently a fishing vessel, but the fleet did not have special landing ships.


We remember that in the end the city was lost. As a result of the hardest fights, having suffered huge losses in people (Manstein recalled one company in which nine people remained, with the staff of a German infantry company of one hundred and ninety people), the Germans nevertheless took the city.

But it was just a military defeat, but the release of the 11-th army during the decisive battles of the end of 1941-th, would be just a disaster.

The fleet is usually criticized for the outcome of the defense of Sevastopol. But is this criticism fair? It is necessary to ask the question - and which naval forces have the same operation in the asset? To supply an isolated enclave, with tens of thousands of defenders, hundreds of days in a row, against an adversary who dominates the air? Who else could like? Who even tried to do something like that?

Moreover, if the Stavka had given the order to evacuate Sevastopol after the collapse of the Crimean front, then it would probably have been done, just as it had been done earlier in Odessa. Until a certain point it was possible.

The Kerch-Feodosia operation and the supply operations for the garrison of Sevastopol were of strategic importance for the outcome of the war as a whole. They would be even more important if the army succeeded in landing on the Kerch Peninsula. But the army did not fulfill this task.

In the future, landing and military transportation became the main task of the fleet. Thus, the storming of Novorossiysk would have turned into a “Soviet Verdun” if not for the simultaneous attack of the troops from the “Malaya Zemlya” bridgehead, and, at the hottest moment of the battle, the landing force directly into the port, disorganized the German defenses in the city. How could all this be done without the Navy? A rhetorical question. Capturing a bridgehead without a fleet would absolutely certainly not be possible.

And during the liberation of the Crimea, the Navy also played a crucial role. Although the Kerch-Eltigen landing operation was incomparable in scale with the Kerch-Feodossiysk operation, and although the landing in Eltigen was defeated, and its remnants had to be evacuated, the main landing forces eventually managed to gain a foothold in the Crimea and drew off four of the nine that belonged to the enemy.

As a result, the task of the Soviet troops attacking from the north, which actually liberated the Crimea, was simplified approximately twice. Can I somehow underestimate it?

In total, the fleet conducted the following main landing operations on the Black Sea Theater (chronologically):

1941: Grigorievsky landing, Kerch-Feodosia landing operation

1942: Evpatoria landing, Sudak landing

1943: Landing at Verbyanaya Spit, Taganrogsky Landing, Mariupol Landing, Novorossiysk Landing Operation, Landing at Osipenko, Landing in the area of ​​Blagoveshchenskaya - Salt, Temryuk Landing, Landing on the Tuzla Spit, Kerch-Eltigen Airborne Operation

1944: Landing at Cape Tarkhan, Landing at the Kerch port, Landing at the Nikolaev port, Konstanz landing.

And that's not counting the shelling of German troops from the sea, and military traffic, and in fact during the latter two million people were transported! Not counting the evacuation of Odessa.

Not only the Kerch-Feodosia operation and the supply of Sevastopol were strategically important, but, for example, the Novorossiysk, Kerch-Eltigen landing operations or the evacuation of Odessa were of paramount operational importance, but also the fact that the efforts exerted enormous pressure on the enemy, and had a significant impact on the course of the war as a whole.

At first glance, the Baltic fleet is not so simple. From the very beginning, in addition to all the problems peculiar to the Navy, the Baltic Fleet also suffered from extremely incompetent command. This is due, for example, the failure of evacuation of Tallinn. But remembering Tallinn, we must remember the evacuation of the garrison of the Hanko Peninsula, carried out in conditions of great mine danger, but on the whole, in spite of everything, successful.

However, the enemy was able to successfully block the Baltic Fleet, and the attempts of the Baltic submariners from time to time to break minefields and network barriers cost them dearly. And this is in conditions where the submarines in any case could not cause significant damage to enemy communications. And the first landings in the 1941 and 1942 years of the Baltic were almost completely destroyed by the Germans. The fate of the Narva landing in 1944 was no better ...

However, it is worth understanding this. Even in a blocked state, the Navy played the role of a deterrent to the Germans. To understand how, you have to make an assumption, and imagine what would have happened if there had been no fleet in the Baltic.

And then a completely different picture opens up to the imagination - the Luftwaffe dominates the sky, Kriegsmarine dominates the sky, and the Wehrmacht drives the Red Army to the northeast by tens of kilometers a day on land. The Germans in general would not have been constrained in their activity on the Baltic, and this would inevitably end up in carrying out amphibious operations against the Red Army - in conditions when the German troops landed could rely on air support and supplies by sea, and the reserves of the Red Army would be constrained by strikes from the front. Of course, such operations would have accelerated the advance of units of the Wehrmacht even more, and it is also obvious that there would be nothing to oppose the Red Army at that time. And this is a big question, where in this version of reality the Army Group North would stop, which was really stopped at Leningrad by super efforts and huge losses.

However, the Baltic Fleet still came to life. Let the effectiveness of his actions was the lowest among all the Soviet fleets.

After the failed (next) Narva landing, successful operations to seize the Bjørk islands and islands in the Vyborg gulf, the fleet and army conducted an important operation to capture the Moonzund islands, even if accompanied by a tragedy with the landing at Wintry, after which the landing forces landed on the Frische spit -Nerung and Danish Bornholm.

When the blockade was removed from Leningrad, the fleet ships provided all the necessary military transport, including to the Oranienbaum bridgehead, which played a decisive role both in the defense of Leningrad and in its de-blockade. The troops, who attacked the Germans from this bridgehead in January 1944, were both delivered by naval sailors and attacked with the support of naval artillery.

What would the operation to lift the blockade of Leningrad look like without an attack from this patch of land? It is worth thinking about it, as well as the fact that without the fleet it would not have been withheld.

In general, it must be admitted that of all the fleets, the Baltic “acted” in the worst way. Just do not forget that he got the most complicated theater of war, and with all the drawbacks of his combat work, the zero value of the Baltic Fleet was never, like a near-zero one. Although much more could have been done.

The merit of the Northern Fleet is described by the simple and capacious word "convoys". It was the Northern Fleet that provided the "connection" of the belligerent USSR with the British, and, to a large extent, with the Americans. The polar convoys were the main means of delivering material and technical assistance to the USSR, and it was of vital importance. After the war, in order not to "podmahivat" Western propaganda, instantly becoming hostile, into the national historical "science" (without quotes here in any way in this case, alas) and the mass consciousness was thrown into the myth of allied supplies as something unprincipled for Victory. Naturally, there is nothing more distant from reality. For example, let us mention the fact that the Soviet Union lost 70% of aluminum production by October 1941. What would aluminum (until the middle of the 1943) blocks of B-2 diesel engines be made of, famous for the T-34 and KV? Aircraft engines? And you can still raise the list of the best Soviet pilots, aces and see what they flew. Only the top ten "top" Soviet fighter pilots cost Germany about 1% of all aircraft produced by it during the war. And almost all of these people flew, in most cases, on “Air Cobra”, and not on Lagg-3, oddly enough.

It was the Northern Fleet that performed the task of ensuring the security of the Allied convoys in its area of ​​responsibility, and most importantly, made a significant contribution to the defense of the Arctic. Of particular note is the landing in the West Face, on the west coast, made in July 1941 year. Then 2500 fighters and commanders from the 325 rifle regiment and marines disrupted the July German offensive on Murmansk, forcing them to withdraw troops from the front and move them to the bridgehead captured by the landing force. A successful operation actually cost the Germans victory in the Arctic: they could not “win back” the lost time, they missed the counterattack of the Red Army, and when the Wehrmacht launched an offensive again in the fall, he no longer had the strength to break through to Murmansk. The "Road of Life" for the entire USSR was kept. In the future, marines raids continued with varying success, ships and aircraft provided the escort of allied convoys, and smaller domestic convoys along the NSR and inland waters. Also, fleet aviation systematically attacked small German convoys. Each such episode separately did not mean anything, but together they seriously complicated the activities of the Germans. Preventing them from relaxing in between British attacks.

River flotillas made a special contribution to the struggle against the Germans. The volume of the article simply does not allow disclosing their contribution to the outcome of the war, as well as the composition and the loudest operations. We state the following. The personnel of the flotillas was recruited from the Navy, received previous training in the Navy. Much of the ships in the flotilla was created earlier for the Navy, and was not mobilized by civilian ships. Without the Ladoga military flotilla, Leningrad could well have been lost. The most successful Soviet landing operation, which had an important tactical importance - Tuloksinskaya, was carried out by the river crew. Its scale exceeded the scale of most amphibious landings, and the ratio of losses to the results achieved, the very “price of victory”, would have done honor to any army and fleet of those years. In general, river flotilla landed more landings than any of the fleets. Rechniki fought on the Azov Sea, the Don and the Volga, fought almost all over the Danube, to the Balkans and the Spree River, and ended up fighting in Berlin.


The armored boat of the Dnieper flotilla on the Spree, in the background - the destroyed Reichstag

The last theater of operations, in which the Navy had to fight, was the Far East. By the time the USSR entered the war on the side of the United States and allies, the Japanese fleet was almost completely defeated, and could not offer significant resistance. As well as during the Great Patriotic War, landing became the main type of military operations. Accompanying the offensive of the Red Army, the Navy consistently landed five landings in Korea, three river forces of the Amur Flotilla, landed two tactical landings on Sakhalin, and carried out the Kuril landing operation strategically important for the USSR then for Russia.

Of course, the landings to Korea and on the rivers of Northern China did not have any fundamental significance for the outcome of the Red Army offensive. However, there was one exception that is usually forgotten.

It should be understood that if the USSR did not have not only those fragile ships in general, on which these operations were carried out, but also commanders and staffs who are able to carry them out, do not have experience in conducting such operations, roughly speaking, don’t have at least some fleet in the Pacific theater, and the surrender of Japan on the Kuril Islands could go to the Americans. It is simply impossible to describe what the strategic consequences for our country would be in this case. They would be indescribable.

Let's sum up.

In the course of the Great Patriotic War, the Navy, acting against the coast, conducted amphibious operations and ensured the army’s operations by military transport, including the retention of communications with its allies. Other tasks, such as attacks by enemy convoys by aviation, small ships and submarines, did not have a strategic influence, although, in general, had a serious impact on him. Unfortunately, the limited format of the article forced us to leave the actions of naval aviation and submarines "behind the scenes", although this seems to be unfair.

The actions of the Navy against the coast had a significant impact on the course of hostilities and the outcome of the war as a whole. In some cases, fleet operations were of strategic importance for the survival or future of the country (Crimea, Kuriles).

Of course, there were a lot of flaws in the plans for amphibious operations, and in how these plans were implemented, which led to large unjustified losses in people. But the value of landing operations does not reduce it. 80% of all Soviet landings were successful; if we talk about landings that were of operational importance, then almost everything.

Understanding of those old events by domestic historians and lovers of military history is, unfortunately, paradoxical and somewhat pathological in nature. Without disputing the fact of historical events that have taken place, not disputing their scale, not disputing the direct damage caused to the enemy (killed, wounded, etc.), domestic writers, publicists and ordinary people are not able to see the whole picture, are not able to assess the “integral »The effect of the activities of the Navy in the war with Germany and the war with Japan. No one ever asked the question: “What if there was no fleet?” Nobody ever lost the “alternative” at a serious, professional level, in which, for example, the 11th Army took part in the Rostov battle, or was transferred to the Army Group Center to stop the Soviet counteroffensive near Moscow, or near Leningrad, but not at the time of the Meretskovsky offensive, but six months earlier. What would it be then? But if the Germans, who had completed the campaign on the southern flank in 1941, were more successful than in reality, would they have reached Poti a year later? How would Turkey react, for example? As would have shown themselves those troops that at the end of 1941 landed in the semi-empty Crimea, and their comrades who were then in the besieged Sevastopol, if they had been thrown under German Tanks somewhat north? Would they be able to “freeze” an entire army as much, preventing them from being used in other sectors of the vast front? Or would they quickly burn out in boilers and barren attacks, like millions of others like them?

No one asks such questions and does not want to think about them, at best, simply dismissing the options that did not happen, not realizing that they did not just happen. For their offensive, tens and hundreds of thousands of people died ...

Yes, the Navy had a mass of overtly shameful failures. But who did not have them? The United States began the Pearl Harbor War. The British have a battle with Kuantan, there is the sinking of the aircraft carrier "Glories" and the abandonment of the convoy PQ-17. There is an inability to stop the actions of the Italian fleet until the very moment Italy left the war, and it was not the Allied Navy that made her surrender, well, or not only they. Is this a reason to doubt the meaningfulness of the existence of the Royal Navy?

History is a good teacher, but you need to understand its lessons correctly. Let us briefly summarize what we should learn from the experience of the Great Patriotic War and the fighting against Japan.

1. The fleet is needed. Even in a defensive war on land, on its territory. In principle, there can be no opposition “fleet-army” to which in Russia they often suffer.

2. He must be powerful. Not the fact that it is necessarily oceanic, it depends on current political and military tasks, but necessarily numerous, strong and well prepared. Its structure, strength, ship composition and orientation of combat training must be repelled by the “threat model” adequate to reality, the fleet cannot be built as a “fleet in general”.

3. Military science must work intensively to determine the appearance of a future war, including necessarily a war at sea. The only way to "guess" with the type of future warships. Otherwise, it will be necessary to use cruisers as transports, and to land troops from pleasure boats, scout boats and fishing trawlers and in general to solve problems with obviously worthless means with unreasonably high losses. As it was in the past.

4. Army commanders cannot effectively command a fleet. It's impossible. Sea operations are too different from land operations. The command system must be worked out before the war and then work without fail. The task and responsibility of the military-political leadership is to create and "configure" this system in peacetime.

5. When conducting a landing operation, responsibility for carrying it out should be transferred to army commanders and headquarters only after the landing of the first echelon of the landing force, or later, but never before. Examples of the reverse in the Great Patriotic War were and ended tragically.

6. With the enemy’s attack on the land and weakness of his naval forces (no matter what, or “here and now”), the importance of strikes from the sea along the coast increases - in those years they were airborne troops (including raids) and shelling, today an arsenal of methods and funds significantly higher.

7. The presence of naval aviation, well supplied and prepared, is a crucial factor in determining the success of any naval operation. This should be precisely specialized aviation, at least in terms of personnel training, and better also in the technical characteristics of aircraft.

8. Strange as it may seem, ships may well fight against an adversary with air superiority — this is possible, but very difficult and dangerous.

9. The use by the enemy of mine weapons and aggressive operations on the setting of mine barriers can reduce the number and strength of the fleet to zero. Fully. In this case, the enemy will need for this minimum force. Mines are one of the most important destructive types of naval weapons. This is confirmed by the American experience of the Second World War. Most likely, in the future big war, the losses from mines will exceed those of anti-ship missiles, and significantly. Both mining equipment and the mines themselves are required, as well as well-developed mine support measures.

10. The key to success in a naval war is extremely aggressive, and very well prepared offensive or counter-offensive actions. Purely defensive tasks for ships are an oxymoron; they can only exist as a starting point for intercepting initiative and counterattack. In this case, it does not matter the overall superiority of the enemy forces. In any case, you will have to look for an opportunity to attack, for a series of limited attacks, for raids, raids, and so on.

11. No number of combat fleet is not enough. We need a mobilization reserve from civilian ships, which could then be used for military purposes - both as transport and as armed auxiliary ships. Similarly, we need a reserve in people. It is desirable to have warships on conservation, as it was in the past. At least a little.

12. An example of an enemy shows that even an improvised ship or ship can be very dangerous for the enemy (German speed high-speed landing craft). In some cases, such vessels may pose a threat to warships. It is advisable to have such options in advance.

It is not difficult to notice that a lot of this, far from complete, by the way, list is ignored in our country.

Too much.
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  1. +1
    10 January 2019 05: 45
    Thank you for the article, the fact that Tributs is not Essen, we already knew for a long time.
    1. +5
      10 January 2019 06: 07
      Quote: polpot
      Thank you for the article, the fact that Tributs is not Essen, we already knew for a long time.

      In principle, Oktyabrsky greatly exaggerated the threat of the passage of the Italian fleet through the Turkish Straits to the Black Sea.
      1. +3
        10 January 2019 07: 27
        But he could not know for sure. We now know that there was no such threat, and then it was considered quite probable, especially since the example of Goeben was still fresh in my memory.
        1. WW2
          0
          11 January 2019 19: 30
          Quote: Rakovor
          and then it was considered quite probable

          He was considered.
          Quote: Rakovor
          especially since the example of Goeben was still fresh in memory.

          Was Goebin an "Italian"? And the situation in the Mediterranean was such that the Italians could keep their own.
      2. +2
        10 January 2019 13: 37
        It is interesting what role the flight of Oktyabrsky and Petrov from Sevastopol in July 1942, who abandoned the Army and Navy forces subordinate to them, played a role. Was it possible to defend Sevastopol, or at least organize the evacuation of troops and citizens, as was organized in Odessa?
        1. +6
          10 January 2019 14: 26
          Quote: Yarylo
          Was it possible to defend Sevastopol, or at least organize the evacuation of troops and citizens, as was organized in Odessa?

          For this, it was necessary that the situation at the front as a whole be as during the evacuation of Odessa. That is, it would be possible to organize a fighter cover for convoys along the entire route (ships leaving Odessa, covered six dozen fighters).
          The fate of Sevastopol was decided on the Kerch Peninsula. After his loss, Sevastopol was doomed - it was impossible to cover the passage with fighters, and anti-aircraft artillery of ships against the 8th air corps did not even play with limes.
        2. -1
          10 January 2019 18: 52
          The husband once said: Stalin needed to publicly shoot Budyonny and it would be wonderful
          1. +8
            10 January 2019 19: 27
            Quote: Astra wild
            The husband once said: Stalin needed to publicly shoot Budyonny and it would be wonderful

            And Budyonny, for what? In 1941, he foresaw another month of the Kiev catastrophe - and he was removed for panic reports. In 1942, after Order No. 227, he managed to knock out from Stavka an order to withdraw troops to the line of the Caucasian Range - and infantry to leave German tanks without boilers of the 1941 scale.
      3. +1
        10 January 2019 18: 55
        Nicola, you wanted a lot: such as Essen rarity
    2. -2
      10 January 2019 12: 18
      Did the Baltic Fleet under Admiral Essen help take Berlin?
      Or was he trying not to move far from his mine-artillery positions?
      1. +1
        11 January 2019 11: 25
        Quote: hohol95
        Did the Baltic Fleet under Admiral Essen help take Berlin?
        Or was he trying not to move far from his mine-artillery positions?

        And the Baltic Fleet under Admiral Essen was subordinate to the army. smile
        The use of BF BF, EMNIP, had to be coordinated with Spitz and the Winter Palace.
        1. 0
          11 January 2019 12: 32
          And then what is he better than Tributs?
          The fleet still pushed the fleet!
          1. +2
            11 January 2019 13: 31
            Quote: hohol95
            And then what is he better than Tributs?
            The fleet still pushed the fleet!

            The fact that under Nikolai Ottovich the fleet had the same intelligence. And the fleet had at least an approximate "picture" of the theater of operations, and not like at Tributs:
            They went 3 EMs and 2 TFRs into a mine setting and suddenly hop - suddenly stumbled upon enemy ships of an unknown type in the amount of three pieces. We had a fight, reported victory (they declared the sinking of MM and damage to the RCCR), along the way, nearly lost your EM and dumped the mines in the wrong square. And only after the war did they find out that the enemy had not suffered losses, hadn’t received any hits, and two minesweepers and a naval base fought on his side.
    3. +2
      10 January 2019 13: 05
      Quote: Amurets
      Thank you for the article

      I support, the article actually raises the question that has been relevant since the time of Peter the Great - whether the Russian fleet is needed, and if necessary, in what quantity. In the time of Alexander the First, there was a strong opinion that the fleet for such a gigantic continental country like Russia is an expensive burden and as if the war with Napoleon showed it. Fleet costs were greatly reduced. But in the end we got the shameful Crimean War. It turns out that turn the state into a colony or semi-colony like China, it’s not at all necessary for the army to reach Moscow, but just block the coast. The British and French already came to Crimea with their wives with their beloved dogs, with their mistresses. They built houses, embankments, and a railway, in a word they were equipping them as in a colony, and the Russian fleet, just like impotent, could only contemplate this.
      History has clearly shown that ignoring the Navy can lead to grave, sometimes irreparable consequences. In addition, to paraphrase the words of Alexander the Third, we will generally remain with one single ally. hi
      1. WW2
        -1
        11 January 2019 19: 36
        Quote: Proxima
        In the time of Alexander the First, there was a strong opinion that the fleet for such a gigantic continental country like Russia is an expensive burden and as if the war with Napoleon showed it.

        They understood everything correctly.
        Quote: Proxima
        Fleet costs were greatly reduced. But in the end we got the shameful Crimean War.

        And the fleet for this war, which side?
        Quote: Proxima
        It turns out that in order to turn the state into a colony or semi-colony like China, you don’t need to reach Moscow with the army at all, but you just need to block the coast.

        What nonsense!
        The Russian army and Sevastopol did not need to be defended. It was necessary to retreat deep into the Crimea, after six months, the maximum occupation forces themselves would have left.
        Quote: Proxima
        The British and French already came to Crimea with their wives with their beloved dogs, with their mistresses. They built houses, embankments, and a railway, in a word they were equipping them as in a colony, and the Russian fleet, just like impotent, could only contemplate this.

        Why are you writing such obvious nonsense?
        Quote: Proxima
        History has clearly shown that ignoring the Navy can lead to grave, sometimes irreparable consequences.

        History has clearly shown that if the state cares too much about its defense, it will go bankrupt and die.
    4. 0
      10 January 2019 22: 46
      Why are we minus?
      Nothing to answer?
      So what is Admiral Essen famous for from 1914 to 1915?
  2. 0
    10 January 2019 06: 02
    And there’s nothing to add. Limited resources, limited scales. What were able to accomplish!
    1. +4
      10 January 2019 09: 37
      More. That's the trick. More than human strength actually. Find a British ship that has completed as many missions in the area of ​​enemy aircraft as the Red Crimea, for example.
      1. +8
        10 January 2019 11: 53
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Find a British ship that has completed as many missions in the area of ​​enemy aircraft as the Red Crimea, for example.

        * Thoughtfully looks towards Crete, the Maltese convoys and the Maltese compound.
      2. +4
        10 January 2019 16: 38
        With the Allies, on the whole, there was also, for example, the landing capabilities that any American tank landing ship possessed in 1942, we didn’t have before raising the Andreevsky flag at Ivan Gren BDK

        And to this day, the Americans do not have such amphibious and tank-landing capabilities that the Zubr provides.
        Only the top ten “top” Soviet fighter pilots cost Germany about 1% of all the aircraft produced during the war. And almost all of these people flew, in most cases, on the "Aero Cobra", and not on Lagg-3, oddly enough.

        Oh, is it? Remind me how many and what aces flew on the La-5? And what was the best "top" pilot of all the USSR (and even all the Allies) flying in? But this is LaGG-3, just finally waiting for a normal human motor. By the way, why don’t you love Gorbunov and Gudkov so much that you didn’t even bother to write their abbreviations in the name of the aircraft in capital letters, as it should?

        But in general, I have no objections to the article. Effectively. Although this passenger jarred a few more:
        Stalin arranged a grandiose sweep in the Navy, accompanied by mass repressions and the nomination of political appointees to command posts who had no idea whatsoever about naval activity.

        Again, the damned Stalin reached out and to blame for everything?
        1. +2
          11 January 2019 10: 24
          Quote: Kuroneko
          And to this day, the Americans do not have such amphibious and tank-landing capabilities that the Zubr provides.

          Carriage for 250-300 miles and landing three MBT? Three LCACs. smile
          Quote: Kuroneko
          Again, the damned Stalin reached out and to blame for everything?

          Of course! He personally wrote denunciations to old officers during discussions about the future appearance of the Red Navy. smile
        2. WW2
          +1
          11 January 2019 19: 37
          Quote: Kuroneko
          Again, the damned Stalin reached out and to blame for everything?

          One who seizes absolute power bears absolute responsibility.
  3. +3
    10 January 2019 06: 48
    And the 3 picture (with the landing), is it not in the north?

    Well, in the description of equipment and technology, everything is far from certain. More with a reassessment of the technology of the allies, but also underestimation of ours, the same is available.
    1. -3
      10 January 2019 09: 36
      Like the Crimea, although it's easy to make a mess, of course. There are no underestimates of our technology, the number of samples that are really effective by world standards is small, frankly.
      Medium and heavy tanks, Su-85,100,122, ISU, artillery. In aviation La-5, La-7. In the Navy - okolonol. In transport - just zero. Walkie talkies - zero. On the KV for a whole year, the British radio set it like this. Anti-tank infantry weapons - we have PTR, they have Bazuki. Basic shooting - we have a shop, amers have a semi-automatic. And so where throw.
      We learned to control artillery as they did then only in 70's, if not later.
      In general, the topic is long and fraught with falling out in flood))))
      1. +16
        10 January 2019 09: 53
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        We learned to control artillery as they did then only in 70's, if not later.

        ?????????????
        To put it mildly, incorrect information. To say the least.
        1. +1
          10 January 2019 16: 27
          Quote: Spade
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          We learned to control artillery as they did then only in 70's, if not later.

          ?????????????
          To put it mildly, incorrect information. To say the least.

          Especially anti-tank artillery. German tank aces probably were thoroughly paid when they wrote in their memoirs about fear and even worship of the IPTAPs.
          1. +8
            10 January 2019 16: 45
            Yes, that's not the point 8)))
            It's about shooting with the PDO. And we never ran artillery "like the Americans," even in the 70s.

            For our management methods are different in principle. It can be argued for a long time that it is better, on the one hand, high efficiency of fire, on the other, higher combat stability, since their commanders art. units in the rear, and not on the "front end" with the infantry, as we do. But the fact remains.
          2. +3
            10 January 2019 23: 29
            One of the German TANK ASOV (alas, I do not remember the name, but his adventures are described in the book "Tank Aces of Hitler", began his combat path in the Pz.III crew and his tank burned down from a couple of holes from the Soviet 45-heel in 1942! He was lucky survive and join the crew of the “Tiger.” But he feared the Soviet anti-tank equipment until the end of the war!
            The 199th light artillery brigade (two regiments of 76-mm guns ZIS-Z and one regiment of 100-mm BS-3) was actually part of the 3rd Guards Tank Army. Two batteries of these guns moved in the convoy of the 53rd Guards Tank Brigade, one battery was attached to the advanced detachment of the corps. “Hundreds” distinguished themselves on January 12 and 13, and in the following days "... shooting at distances of over 1000 m, they hit self-propelled 75-mm guns and T-4 tanks, they themselves were out of reach of a direct shot of the enemy’s armored units." One can imagine what a delight this caused the infantrymen who had suffered during the war from these very “armored units”!

            Mikhail Borisovich Baryatinsky - “Mouse” and others. Heavy tanks of the Second World War
            1. WW2
              -3
              11 January 2019 19: 43
              Quote: hohol95
              The 99th light artillery brigade (two regiments of 76-mm guns ZIS-Z and one regiment of 100-mm BS-3) was actually part of the 3rd Guards Tank Army. Two batteries of these guns moved in the convoy of the 53rd Guards Tank Brigade, one battery was attached to the advanced detachment of the corps. "Hundreds" distinguished themselves on January 12 and 13, and in the following days "... shooting at distances of over 1000 m, they hit self-propelled 75-mm guns and T-4 tanks, they themselves were beyond the reach of a direct shot of enemy armored units."

              BS-3 in 1944, only 240 were made. Therefore, even writing about them is not worth it. It was as if they were not there.
              But what happened was the PaK / KwK / StuG40 family. Since December 1941, tens of thousands have been made in different versions. Even 88 mm PaK43 was made 2037 pcs. And where BS-3 to them.
      2. +6
        10 January 2019 10: 54
        There are also massive ones.
        Almost all pre-war and war-time planes, all armor, and most guns were on par. Shooting - on the level. Semi-automatic rifles before the war were armed with many units, companies of machine gunners, the same Soviet chip. According to MLRS - a leading position. Aerial unguided missiles also appeared before the war. From transport - there were successful tractors, for example, a Komsomolets. They had their own radar. There were prototypes of grenade launchers and jet (rocket) aircraft. In the fleet were LKr. Pr26, and more or less normal destroyers.
        1. -4
          10 January 2019 11: 08
          I meant it. Separate samples.
          1. +3
            10 January 2019 11: 11
            Well, did anyone at least have something that would have been successful almost everything?
        2. WW2
          -3
          11 January 2019 19: 44
          Quote: maximghost
          Almost all pre-war and war-time planes, all armor, and most guns were on par. Shooting - on the level.

          Learn the materiel. You need.
          Quote: maximghost
          machine gun companies

          And the "companies of machine gunners" is generally a tragedy. Of course, the "company of the villagers" would have been even worse. Not even this horror, "the mouth of machine gunners", is enough.
      3. +4
        10 January 2019 12: 33
        The basic shooter - we have a store, amers semi-automatic.

        And the Germans, Romanians, Hungarians, Finns, British, French, Japanese?
        And not a semiautomatic device - a self-loading rifle - during the difficult war years, Soviet industry could not produce Tokarev self-loading in large quantities!
        But the Americans did not abandon the store-bought "Springfield" and did not take them out of service!
        1. +5
          10 January 2019 14: 36
          Quote: hohol95
          And not a semiautomatic device - a self-loading rifle - during the difficult war years, Soviet industry could not produce Tokarev self-loading in large quantities!
          At Bolotin, yes you need to search the Internet for how many AVS-36, SVT and AVT were produced. The army refused these rifles because they did not know how to exploit them, but these rifles were valued where they knew how to handle them: border troops, marines. And the most interesting thing is the army of our opponents: in the Wehrmacht and the Finnish army. In the Wehrmacht, they refused Walther's rifles because of their unreliability, bulkyness, and heavy weight and asked them to replace the Mauser 98K rifle
          1. +1
            10 January 2019 15: 43
            They were difficult to operate with constant movement of land units!
            Alas, the front was not relatively static, as in the First Imperialist in Europe!
            In the Finnish army, the trophy ABC-36 preferred the Tokarev SVT rifle, as a more reliable one.

            After the adoption of the ABC, their release, previously produced by individual parties, increases markedly. So, if in 1934 106 rifles were produced, and in 1935 - 286, then in 1937 - already 10280, and in 1938 - 23401 pieces.
            Production of the ABC-36 was discontinued in 1940, although by this time 65800 copies had already been produced.

            The famous photo - 2 PPSh, DP-27 and AVS-36!
            1. +1
              10 January 2019 16: 03
              Quote: hohol95
              They were difficult to operate with constant movement of land units!

              Mwa-ha-ha ... yes, even at the points of permanent deployment we managed to score on the care of weapons. Here is the best KOVO division:
              In parts of 97 SD rifles manufactured in 1940. , which were on hand for no more than 4 months, up to 29% are reduced to a state of rust in the barrel, machine guns "DP" manufactured in 1939 to 14% also have a deterioration of the barrel channels.
              1. 0
                10 January 2019 16: 40
                I wonder what privates did under the command of their commanders.
                Cleaning and mastering weapons or chores?
                And mental abilities with education are quite interesting!
                FRONT ILLUSTRATION No. 4 2001. PRELUDE TO "BARBAROSS"
                Issue "Frontline Illustration", dedicated to the state of the ground forces of the USSR and Germany by June 1941. The main emphasis is made on the state of the Red Army, on armored troops and fortified areas. The release is equipped with a large number of tables, almost all of which are published for the first time.

                Download, read! It will be interesting!
                1. +1
                  11 January 2019 10: 31
                  Quote: hohol95
                  I wonder what privates did under the command of their commanders.
                  Cleaning and mastering weapons or chores?

                  And what can an ordinary junior commander teach if a junior has a level of knowledge below this ordinary one?
                  To great shame, and chagrin, cadet regiment schools have lesser knowledge of small arms than the knowledge of the Red Army, and yet despite this they are issued by junior commanders.
                  There is no need to talk about the rules, cleaning weapons, and their inspection by younger commanders.
                  This situation should be, since the commander, having no knowledge of small arms, cannot transfer them to his subordinates and demand knowledge from them when he himself does not know him.
                  © retracted by kris-reid
                  Well and enchanting (5 A, 135 sd):
                  Unfortunately, there are still such commanders as junior lieutenant Comrade X (I release the last name in the dock) (791 joint venture), who has only 6 rifles in the division, and upon examination, all the rifles turned out to be rusty, and his personal revolver "Nagan", in the drum of which there were three spent cartridges. The revolver, according to Junior Lieutenant Comrade X, was not cleaned after firing for 3 months.
                  © retracted by kris-reid
                  1. WW2
                    0
                    11 January 2019 20: 01
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    And what can an ordinary junior commander teach if a junior has a level of knowledge below this ordinary one?

                    In fact, in the army this is a very infrequent and temporary phenomenon.
                  2. +1
                    13 January 2019 01: 47
                    You have forgotten about the years of the beginning of the transfer of the Red Army from the MILITION system to the UNIVERSAL SYSTEM!
                    And about the problems with the command staff - A WHERE THE TESTS WERE ...
                    "YOU SHOULD GARNET, but for the COUNTRY this is the price of a COW ..."
          2. 0
            11 January 2019 01: 08
            And the most interesting thing is the army of our opponents: in the Wehrmacht and the Finnish army.

            The Wehrmacht did not succeed in creating a successful self-loading rifle like the SVT.
            1. WW2
              -2
              11 January 2019 20: 03
              Quote: Proxima
              The Wehrmacht did not succeed in creating a successful self-loading rifle like the SVT.

              "Successful self-loading rifle" and "SVT" are incompatible concepts.
              And the Germans had better shops (a three-line against Mauser). But worse than British and American rifles (Lee-Enfield and Garand).
          3. WW2
            -3
            11 January 2019 19: 57
            Quote: Amurets
            the army refused these rifles because they did not know how to exploit them,

            What nonsense!
            What are you writing down the Red Army?
            ABC did not want to work and were very unreliable.
            SVT were not suitable for the army. Since they were expensive, and the warranty shot was simply catastrophic. Due to the "design features".
            Quote: Amurets
            but these rifles were valued where they knew how to handle them: border troops, marines.

            They did not give the Marine Corps SVT. They were issued to those who shoot little or almost none at all - sailors (on ships), pagrants, etc. There they, if not to shoot from them, could serve for a long time.
            Quote: Amurets
            And the most interesting thing is the army of our opponents: in the Wehrmacht and the Finnish army.

            The Wehrmacht and the Finnish army lacked weapons. Therefore, there they adopted everything that came to hand. Even the old three-line arr. 1891 g (not 1891/30 years) stood.
      4. 0
        10 January 2019 15: 01
        Americans delivered bazookas to the USSR, more than 2000 pieces, but for some reason ours refused them.
        1. 0
          10 January 2019 15: 15
          It is difficult to shoot from the frontier, the shot is blown away by the wind. It takes a lot of time and ammunition to learn. Plus, the shots themselves are voluminous and heavy, and there are few trucks. It was not our level then.
          1. 0
            10 January 2019 17: 55
            But the Faustpatrons used themselves quite well. And quite a lot. But in the majority of boughs they are not against tanks. And Fri guns, by the end of the war, often handed over to the warehouse.
            1. 0
              10 January 2019 18: 22
              Quote: maximghost
              But the Faustpatrons used themselves quite well. And quite a lot. But in the majority of boughs they are not against tanks.

              EMNIP, according to the "faustpatrons" there was an order - to transfer all captured "faustas" to the engineering troops. And there the "user" was much more qualified.
      5. +2
        10 January 2019 16: 57
        The Allies HAD NO ATTACK self-propelled artillery mounts!
        Neither American nor British self-propelled guns could support their infantry on the battlefield!
        The SU-85/100 cited by you; ISU-152/122/122 / C according to the German classification, because of the frontal reservation, belonged to the STORM!
        The SU-76 supported infantry on the battlefield and swept away machine-gun nests, but was the mass of the FAST SAU!
        At the same time, it saved many lives of ordinary foot soldiers!
        In the armies of ALLIES for her there was no "RODNI"!
        1. 0
          10 January 2019 18: 29
          Quote: hohol95
          The Allies HAD NO ATTACK self-propelled artillery mounts!
          Neither American nor British self-propelled guns could support their infantry on the battlefield!

          For the RPE and hacking long-term defense, the same British had engineering tanks.
          Quote: hohol95
          The SU-85/100 cited by you; ISU-152/122/122 / C according to the German classification, because of the frontal reservation, belonged to the STORM!

          By no means.
          SU-85 and SU-100 are yagdpanzery. But the SU-122, SU-152 and the ISU family are assault self-propelled guns.
          By the way, the SU-76 we also belonged to assault self-propelled guns.
          1. 0
            10 January 2019 22: 34
            An example of at least one ENGINEERING TANK give!
            For the Red Army, the SU-85/100 were UNIVERSAL - the fight against enemy tanks and infantry support!
            SU-122 - the same support for infantry and TANKS. From ёё corps and was born SU-85!
            Without infantry support and protection, what could STORM the SU-76?
            The Americans had only SU for fighting the heavy tanks of the Third Reich -
            The M10 is the first American anti-tank self-propelled gun to be developed using a tank chassis. In June 1942, the car was standardized under the designation 3 inch Gun Motor Carriadge M10 (literally - “a motor vehicle for a 3” gun ”). In the British army, this machine was called Wolverine ("Wolverine").
            Under the Lend-Lease program, almost a third of the M10 self-propelled guns - 2143 vehicles were transferred to the Allies in the anti-Hitler coalition. Of these, Great Britain received 1648, France - 443 and the USSR - 52.
            As for the Red Army, two self-propelled artillery regiments were equipped with M10 installations. The 1239th self-propelled artillery regiment fought as part of the 16th Panzer Corps of the 2nd Panzer Army of the 1st Belorussian Front. He participated in the liberation of Belarus and Poland.
            So, for example, on July 30, 1944, the regiment advanced from Deblin to support tank units advancing in the direction of Alexandruv. Together with the regiment, self-propelled guns SU-85 from the 1441st self-propelled artillery regiment moved. On the way, due to air strikes, several SU-85s were disabled, but the 1239th self-propelled artillery regiment, all self-propelled guns of which had large-caliber anti-aircraft machine guns, had no losses. Moreover, the gunner of one of the self-propelled guns, sergeant major Lendovsky, shot down a Ju 88 bomber from a machine gun.
            In August, in battles in the Warsaw area for four days, self-propelled guns of the 4th battery of the regiment knocked out three tanks (of which two “panthers”) and two enemy armored personnel carriers.
            The 1223rd self-propelled artillery regiment as part of the 29th Panzer Corps of the 5th Guards Tank Army of the 3rd Belorussian Front participated in the liberation of Belarus, the Baltic states and East Prussia. On May 1, 1945, the regiment had 1 ° SAU M10, of which, however, only four were operational.

            And this review about SU M-36 -
            However, here is what Charles Geisell recalls, who fought as a lieutenant in the 628th American tank destroyer battalion: “Our unit was one of the few equipped with the new M36 tank destroyer with a 90 mm gun. Most other battalions were equipped with M10 tank destroyers armed with three-inch cannons. When we received the new cars, we were told that our 90 mm gun was superior to the 88 mm German. But in the very first battle of company B in our battalion with the only “Royal Tiger”, we found that our armor-piercing shells could not penetrate the tower armor of a German tank. Only having got to the top of the tower, was it possible to disable it. In this short battle, company B suffered losses. Until the end of the war, our battalion with great difficulty managed to knock out only one more “Royal Tiger”.

            None of the Allied self-propelled assault installation HAD BEEN!
            Artillery - YES, anti-tank - YES!
            But these installations could NOT accompany the infantry when "breaking" enemy defense lines!
            1. +2
              11 January 2019 11: 04
              Quote: hohol95
              An example of at least one ENGINEERING TANK give!

              Please:

              Engineering tank Churchill AVRE (Armored Vehicle Royal Engineers). 180 cars at the time of the landing in Normandy, the total release for the war - 754 cars.
              Quote: hohol95
              For the Red Army, the SU-85/100 were UNIVERSAL - the fight against enemy tanks and infantry support!

              SU-85 - it is possible (although it was recommended to use these self-propelled guns as a mobile anti-tank reserve and to support tanks in the offensive; use as tanks was prohibited).
              SU-100 because of their rarity and value - only PTO.
              Quote: hohol95
              Without infantry support and protection, what could STORM the SU-76?

              And what, someone from the assault SAU could storm without infantry support and protection?
              And where else to include a self-propelled armored weapon on the tank chassis, designed for infantry and infantry research and development in offensive and defense (direct fire)? The only suitable class is the StormSAU.
              Quote: hohol95
              None of the Allied self-propelled assault installation HAD BEEN!
              Artillery - YES, anti-tank - YES!
              But these installations could NOT accompany the infantry when "breaking" enemy defense lines!

              Could not. But accompanied. smile
              On the same Siegfried Line for the infantry NPP, the Allies abnormally used self-propelled guns.
            2. 0
              11 January 2019 11: 20
              The Americans and the British had tanks with high-explosive guns. For example, the chermels and Shermans. I will not name the caliber at the cromwell for a vskidka, but the Sherman’s like 105mm. There was also a stuart with a howitzer (like 75mm). They also drew an avre with a shaitan pipe and a maximum firing range of less than 500m, and an effective range of about 70-80m. But all this, except for a high-explosive stewart, was not too common.

              Our Su-76 just played the role of a light assault gun. She supported the infantry in the offensive, suppressing firing points.
              1. 0
                11 January 2019 13: 50
                Quote: maximghost
                The Americans and the British had tanks with high-explosive guns. For example, the chermels and Shermans. I will not name the caliber at the cromwell for a vskidka, but the Sherman’s like 105mm.

                Right! How I forgot about CS tanks! * facepalm *
                1641 "Sherman" M4 with a 105-mm howitzer.
                341 Cromwell VI and 114 Centaur IV with Ordnance QF 95-mm tank howitzer.
                Plus other CS versions of line tanks - from Valentine to Churchill.
                1. 0
                  11 January 2019 14: 41
                  But all this was not as widespread as the su-76 and hulls and was weaker than the su / isu-152 and brumbar.
              2. 0
                13 January 2019 01: 23
                The Americans and the British had tanks with high-explosive guns.

                Howitzers. And while British tanks marked CS did not have armor-piercing shells in the kit! Only high explosive and smoke! A 87 mm howitzer was installed due to the lack of 2-and 6-pound guns high-explosive shells!
                1. WW2
                  0
                  13 January 2019 01: 44
                  Quote: hohol95
                  due to the lack of 2-and 6-pound guns high-explosive shells!

                  Rumors of this are exaggerated.
                  6 Pounder were of two types: High Explosive Mk IT and High Explosive Mk IIT. For 1942-45 2 thousand of them were produced.
                  2 Pounder was of the same type and was called High Explosive Mk IT. In 1942-44, 818 thousand units were produced.
                  1. 0
                    13 January 2019 02: 41
                    The TANKS were not equipped with HE shells!
                    1. WW2
                      0
                      13 January 2019 11: 00
                      Quote: hohol95
                      The TANKS were not equipped with HE shells!

                      Generally speaking, high-explosive fragmentation and fragmentation, these are the main tank ammunition.
                      1. 0
                        13 January 2019 22: 34
                        Generally speaking, high-explosive fragmentation and fragmentation, these are the main tank ammunition.

                        It is a pity you did not convey this truth to British tank designers and top commanders of British tank units!
                        As in the case of the Matilda, already during the first battles such a shortcoming of British tanks was revealed as the absence of a 2-pound high-explosive fragmentation shell in the ammunition. The latter circumstance served as the reason for the order of the GKO on the rearmament of Valentine with the domestic artillery system. This task was carried out in compressed lines at the factory number 92 in Gorky. The machine, which received the factory index ZIS-95, installed a 45-mm cannon and a machine gun DT. At the end of December 1941, the tank was sent to Moscow, but the matter did not go further than the prototype.

                        It is rather difficult to meet a more or less complete assessment of the Valentine tank in foreign literature. Too limited in time and scope was its operation in the English army. It is mainly noted that tankers praised the tank for reliability, and scolded for the tightness of the fighting compartment and the absence of 2- and 6-pound high-explosive shells in the ammunition.
                      2. WW2
                        0
                        13 January 2019 23: 02
                        Quote: hohol95
                        It is a pity you did not convey this truth to British tank designers and top commanders of British tank units!

                        It is a pity that you see a fig in the "book".
                        I wrote to you the release notes for 2 Pounder was of the same type and was called High Explosive Mk IT. It also says that they began to produce them in 1942. In 1942, 40 thousand were produced.
                        6 Pounder High Explosive Mk IT and High Explosive Mk IIT have also been produced since 1942 (actually since 1941, but this year there were very few of them). In 1942, 396 thousand units were produced.
                  2. 0
                    13 January 2019 22: 52
                    Do you have a BRITISH document in which these shells appear to be included in the ammunition load of the Valentine tank, Model VIII; IX; X?
                    In domestic sources, only TWO types of shells are indicated for these tanks with a 6 pound gun -
                    And both of them are armor-piercing - 6pdr. Mk HI; 6pdr. Mk V.
                    1. WW2
                      0
                      13 January 2019 23: 12
                      Quote: hohol95
                      And both of them are armor-piercing - 6pdr. Mk HI; 6pdr. Mk V.

                      6pdr. Mk HI is High Explosive Mk IT. Splinter.
                      6pdr. Mk V is Armor Piercing Mk VT - armor-piercing. 2,85 kg, 884 m / s.
            3. WW2
              -3
              11 January 2019 20: 20
              Quote: hohol95
              For the Red Army, the SU-85/100 were UNIVERSAL - the fight against enemy tanks and infantry support!

              Do you know the area of ​​defeat of the Soviet 85 mm wartime OS?
              I see that no.
              Take an interest.
              What universality there is.
              Quote: hohol95
              SU-122 - the same support for infantry and TANKS.

              SU-122 can shoot at tanks only in Tanchiks.
              1. 0
                13 January 2019 01: 26
                The SU-122, with the support of the tanks, destroyed with its high-explosive fragmentation shells the anti-tank DEFENSE WEAPONS and the centers of the infantry defense! And the TANKS fought with both infantry and enemy tanks!
                1. WW2
                  0
                  13 January 2019 01: 38
                  Quote: hohol95
                  The SU-122, with the support of the tanks, destroyed with its high-explosive fragmentation shells the anti-tank DEFENSE WEAPONS and the centers of the infantry defense!

                  Let us suppose. In principle, indirectly, it was. SU-122 was included in the Soviet armored vehicle arr. 1942 But in 1943, this armor was already different.
                  Quote: hohol95
                  And the TANKS fought with both infantry and enemy tanks!

                  1. There were no tanks in the USSR since autumn 1941. Besides the so-called. "light tanks".
                  Well, just by TTX, it wasn’t. The Soviet tower BTT did not satisfy the requirements for tanks.
                  2. This is precisely what the Soviet three-inch times of the war could not really deal with the infantry and artillery of the anti-terrorist operation. Babahs did, but there were few fragments. And low-power. I had to shoot from stops. And this time and loss.
                  3. Nothing else with tanks. For 1 plg. 1942 three-inch was enough. At 2 pg, with a big stretch. By 1943, it was already clearly not enough.
                  1. 0
                    13 January 2019 01: 44
                    In 1943, there was NO OTHER ligament! There were T-34-76, T-70, KV-1C, SU-122 and SU-76M (SU-12M), SU-S-1 (SU-76 (s).
                    This tank was not in the Red Army? Interesting! What happened?
                    The Soviet tower BTT did not satisfy the requirements for tanks.

                    Submit HISTORICAL data!
                    1. WW2
                      0
                      13 January 2019 01: 50
                      Quote: hohol95
                      In 1943, there was NO OTHER ligament!

                      No, armored link arr. 1943 looked like this: T-34 + SU-85.
                      Quote: hohol95
                      This tank was not in the Red Army? Interesting! What happened?

                      1. Based on their performance characteristics, it was not.
                      2. Another BTT. In fact, there are a million BTT species. Including and tower.
                      However, if you prefer, you can easily use the term "Soviet tank". Only in fact, this is not a real tank. TTX did not come out.
                      Quote: hohol95
                      Submit HISTORICAL data!

                      What are you interested in?
                      I can provide the composition of explosives OF-350 wartime.
                      I can provide the composition of the BB O-350 (these ersatz were only wartime).
                      I can provide data on the area of ​​their effective defeat.
                      I can provide data on what the area of ​​effective destruction of the BTT gun on the T-34 platform should have been for effective firing (fragmentation) immediately.
                      1. 0
                        13 January 2019 22: 41
                        No, armored link arr. 1943 looked like this: T-34 + SU-85.

                        This "bundle" appeared in the second half of 1943!
                        The first facts of the combat use of the SU-85 regiment took place as part of the 2nd Ukrainian Front at the end of August 1943, where they first entered battle with the Germans during the struggle for bridgeheads on the Dnieper.

                        And before that the SU-85 was "not observed" in the troops!
                      2. WW2
                        0
                        13 January 2019 22: 52
                        Quote: hohol95
                        This "bundle" appeared in the second half of 1943!

                        And the second half of 1943, is it not 1943?
                        Moreover, the armor plates of 1942 and 1944 in the Red Army were different.
              2. 0
                13 January 2019 22: 37
                SU-122 can shoot at tanks only in Tanchiks.

                Eh. It's good that the crews who fought on these SPGs did not know this "TRUTH" ...
                July 8, 1943 during the Battle of Kursk, self-propelled gun SU-122 under the command of Lieutenant R.V. Trainikova from the 1450th self-propelled artillery regiment was ambushed by two German tanks from an ambush. July 10, 1943 the crew of self-propelled guns SU-122 under the command of Lieutenant A.B. Leshchinsky, also from an ambush, knocked out three enemy tanks. July 14, 1943 the commander of the battery of self-propelled guns SU-122 Senior Lieutenant S.S. Mironov from the same 1450th self-propelled artillery regiment knocked out three German tanks.
                1. WW2
                  0
                  13 January 2019 22: 54
                  Quote: hohol95
                  x. It's good that the crews who fought on these SPGs did not know this "TRUTH" ..

                  In vain you give me data from sources like "Murzilka magazine".
                  There are documents about the shelling of German tanks at the range from M-30. This is the same howitzer as the SU-122. Ask about its "effectiveness".
        2. WW2
          -1
          11 January 2019 20: 15
          Quote: hohol95
          Neither American nor British self-propelled guns could support their infantry on the battlefield!

          Saxton, Priest, Bishop. This is only the first thing that came to mind.
          Quote: hohol95
          The SU-85/100 cited by you; ISU-152/122/122 / C according to the German classification, because of the frontal reservation, belonged to the STORM!

          SU-85/100 were tank destroyers.
          ISU-152/122/122 / C self-propelled guns supporting BTT. They supported mainly the T-34
          The only self-propelled gun, which can be called obliquely and crookedly assault, is the SU-76M.
          Quote: hohol95
          The SU-76 supported infantry on the battlefield and swept away machine-gun nests, but was the mass of the FAST SAU!
          At the same time, it saved many lives of ordinary foot soldiers!

          Apparently that's why she was affectionately called "bitch" and "naked Ferdinand".
          And once he got to serve, she could only write off by disability or into the next world.
          Nothing like that was SU-122. Something like StuH. But this project quickly covered up.
          Quote: hohol95
          In the armies of ALLIES for her there was no "RODNI"!

          And in the Wehrmacht, too. Since no one else has released such a BTT for the army. It’s just that the soldiers were there.
          1. 0
            13 January 2019 01: 27
            Saxton, Priest, Bishop. This is only the first thing that came to mind.

            Did their reservation allow them to go in infantry or in front of them?
            1. WW2
              0
              13 January 2019 01: 59
              Quote: hohol95
              Did their reservation allow them to go in infantry or in front of them?

              Self-propelled guns do not go ahead. This is the function of tanks. First tanks breakthrough. Then heavy tanks.
              The USSR had no heavy tanks (and generally real tanks) since the fall of 1941, so the T-34s went on the attack.
              1. 0
                13 January 2019 02: 34
                Self-propelled guns do not go ahead.

                Interesting ..
                And where are the "hodoli" German "Stugs"? Behind the infantry?
                1. WW2
                  0
                  13 January 2019 11: 01
                  Quote: hohol95
                  And where are the "hodoli" German "Stugs"? Behind the infantry?

                  In the battle ranks of the infantry.
                  Primitively, the difference is simple, the self-propelled guns cannot have enemy support on the side.
                  In tanks (real), maybe.
      6. +4
        10 January 2019 17: 05
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        The basic shooter - we have a store, amers semi-automatic.

        You have a poor idea of ​​the volume of saturation of our troops with Shpagin and Sudaev submachine guns. The worst basic shooter, oddly enough, was the Germans - well, yes, Mauser 98K in all fields. T.N. "Schmeissers" they had in relatively insignificant quantities (well, they are simply mandatory in every war film and in fact all Fritzes in a row hang on their belly, so people got this impression).
        For some reason, you also don't name the artillery systems themselves, although almost all Soviet artillery was the best in its classes (even the Germans used it with pleasure). Yes, control problems, but the guns themselves were amazing.
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Anti-tank infantry weapons - we have PTR, they have Bazookas.

        Well then, let's compare anti-tank grenades then - this is also an anti-tank infantry weapon, and an important one. PTR and the bazooka are not always and everywhere you drag and you can apply, and the grenade - there she is, on the belt or in the pocket. Always ready for use.
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        In transport - just zero.

        I don’t agree on transport either - there, for example, recently Roman Skomorokhov in a series on Lend-Lease, and in an article about trucks mentioned ours. There were simply very few of them. But to do something comparable, however, the USSR could.
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        In aviation, La-5, La-7.

        Where did the IL-2 go? = _ =
        EP-2?
        1. +3
          11 January 2019 11: 14
          Quote: Kuroneko
          You have a poor idea of ​​the volume of saturation of our troops with Shpagin and Sudaev submachine guns. The worst basic shooter, oddly enough, was the Germans - well, yes, Mauser 98K in all fields. T.N. "Schmeissers" they had in relatively insignificant quantities (well, they are simply mandatory in every war film and in fact all Fritzes in a row hang on their belly, so people got this impression).

          Why would the Germans use an automatic ersatz weapon when their infantry was saturated with normal machine guns? The PP with its effective range of 100 meters is a weapon with a rather narrow niche, and the infantry’s wide armament with them was not from a good life.
          Quote: Kuroneko
          Well then, let's compare anti-tank grenades then - this is also an anti-tank infantry weapon, and an important one.

          Let's. We have RPG-43 and RPG-6 "hand throwing", they have a faustpatron. smile
          Quote: Kuroneko
          I don’t agree on transport either - there, for example, recently Roman Skomorokhov in a series on Lend-Lease, and in an article about trucks mentioned ours. There were simply very few of them. But to do something comparable, nevertheless, the USSR could.

          Mog - 4x4 jeeps. 4x4 trucks in the series could only be delivered after the war. Massive all-wheel drive 2,5-ton truck for our industry 1941-1945 was a dream.
        2. WW2
          -4
          11 January 2019 20: 31
          Quote: Kuroneko
          You poorly imagine the volumes of saturation of our troops with submachine guns of Shpagin and Sudaev. Oddly enough, the Germans had the worst basic shooting range - well, yes, the Mauser 98K in all fields.

          For some unknown reason, do you think PPSh and PPS are more suitable for infantry than 98K?
          Quote: Kuroneko
          T.N. they had "schmeissers" in relatively small quantities

          Of course. This is a service weapon, it is not suitable for infantry. Although TTX MP40 were much better than PPSh and PPS.
          Quote: Kuroneko
          For some reason, you also don't name the artillery systems themselves, although almost all Soviet artillery was the best in its classes (even the Germans used it with pleasure). Yes, control problems, but the guns themselves were amazing.

          All. Fell under the table and shattered.
          Young man. Just the whole problem was that there was practically no adequate artillery in the Red Army (including tank, anti-tank and anti-aircraft). And what was, it was the level of the Stone Age. Yes, and the jamb on the jamb in addition.
          It's me that artillery, the god of war. And this god was not. From this (including) and such enormous losses.
          A cannon (and a rifle) is a very, very complex engineering complex. Well, who in the USSR could make such a complex complex before the war?
          Who?
          The son of a cook and a healer?
          Could probably. Not everyone, but he could. If he had been taught.
          And who would teach him?
          The cook and the pattern-maker could not. And there was no one else. Of those who could teach, who were shot, and who were kicked out. The bottom line got "empty". Even, "the great snipe is empty."
    2. 0
      10 January 2019 14: 43
      Quote: maximghost
      And the 3 picture (with the landing), is it not in the north?
      .


      This is the north. The author needs to be careful, this spoils the overall assessment of the article.
    3. 0
      10 January 2019 21: 23
      Well, in the description of weapons and equipment, everything is far from certain. More with a reassessment of the technology of the allies, but also underestimation of ours, the same is available.

      You can add interesting facts.

      "" Luttsov "is the fifth heavy cruiser of the" Admiral Hipper "class, planned to be adopted by the German Kriegsmarines.
      Laid down in 1937, launched in 1939. In February 1940 it was sold to the Soviet Union, received the name "Petropavlovsk", in August 1941 it was included in the USSR Navy in a condition of combat readiness, and participated in the defense of Leningrad from German troops.
      Renamed Tallinn in September 1944 "

      And there was a pilot in the Luftwaffe who was evil rock for the Soviet Navy.
      Ace diving bomber Yu-87 Hans-Ulrich Rudel. He was shot down 32 times (always only by anti-aircraft artillery), several times was seriously wounded. In the battles over the Oder, a 40-mm anti-aircraft shell hit his right leg, but he continued to fly even after amputating his leg below the knee.

      In his Ju-87, Rudel sank 70 landing boats. Sank the leader of the destroyers Minsk. The cruiser Lyuttsev-Petropavlovsk was heavily damaged. And he also bombed, before sinking, the battleship "Marat".
  4. +1
    10 January 2019 06: 59
    ... "there weren't enough competent naval command personnel ...
    the tasks that the Navy carried out throughout the war were often carried out with obviously unfit means ...
    low technical and technological development of both the fleet and the country as a whole
    "How can you fight on this?" ...
    The fleet in this case was not lucky. He spent the whole war with obsolete equipment ...
    the navy’s place in the general command and control system of the armed forces has not been determined ...
    supply problems ...
    there was simply nothing to heat them with ... "

    - The recognition of the helplessness of the fleet, somehow does not refute the thesis of its insignificant contribution to the Second World War. This is simply a recognition of his weakness.


    "The fleet did not surrender Odessa or Crimea ...
    Similarly to the army, the Red Army Air Force was unable to stop the Luftwaffe, and all operations of the fleet took place with the enemy's complete air supremacy ... "

    - but I agree with that
    1. -1
      10 January 2019 08: 30
      No, well, about insignificance, you are bent. The author painted everything in detail. If it weren’t for the Black Sea Fleet, the Caucasus would most likely have been lost, and there, it’s not far from the loss of the whole war. Yes, he alone warned the very same Turkey against making rash decisions.
      1. +4
        10 January 2019 09: 16
        If Turkey was afraid of the entry of a fleet into the war, then the British. And she was more afraid of the allied corps in Iran.
        Landings in the Crimea landed not for the Caucasus, but for the liberation of Crimea. These tasks failed, the enemy sword just dulled
        1. +2
          10 January 2019 10: 01
          And here the landing in the Crimea. I meant that if there hadn’t been a Black Sea Fleet, the Germans would have landed troops on the coast of the Caucasus, which hit our rear, defending themselves on the ridge, and that’s all, the Caucasus is lost.
          1. WW2
            -1
            11 January 2019 20: 42
            Quote: Rakovor
            I meant that if there weren’t the Black Sea Fleet, the Germans would have landed on the coast of the Caucasus

            No way the Black Sea Fleet did not interfere and could not interfere. He did not have the strength and means for this.
        2. -1
          10 January 2019 11: 37
          Quote: Tlauicol
          And she was more afraid of the allied corps in Iran.

          Those. 25 Turkish divisions standing on the Soviet-Turkish border in anticipation of the Germans breaking through the Caucasus ridge were designed to repel allies from Iran?
          1. +1
            10 January 2019 12: 00
            To capture the Caucasus. And they didn’t do it, not because of the Black Sea Fleet, but because of what is written above
            1. 0
              10 January 2019 12: 07
              Those. The Black Sea Fleet completely eliminated this and did not take any part?
              1. +1
                10 January 2019 12: 13
                Perfectly.
                Then I wanted to ask what kind of landing was in the rear — the Germans scraped 42 navigable vessels in spring 14 — did the Caucasus protect them from the Black Sea Fleet from the rear?
                1. +1
                  10 January 2019 12: 25
                  In general, the conversation was about something the Black Sea Fleet, the Germans landed troops in the rear of the Tuapse group, well, or directly in Poti (from old memory)?
                  In the spring of the 42 Black Sea Fleet, almost all of it was at work off the coast of the Crimea, with only a small force it defended the Black Sea Railway!
                2. +1
                  10 January 2019 12: 52
                  If there were no obstacles in the form of the Black Sea Fleet, they would scratch as much as needed.
                3. +1
                  10 January 2019 14: 41
                  The Germans would have scrubbed as many scows and troughs in Romania and Bulgaria as they should have been. Yet there was no desert, people live there, and — surprise — walk into the sea. On something.

                  But then the collision with the Black Sea Fleet shone, and in a zone where the possibilities of German aviation to sink ships were, to put it mildly, indisputable.

                  I read somewhere about the fact that the Headquarters was afraid of such landings, but I don’t remember who from the Navy said that while there is at least a battleship, the Germans will not even begin to write plans.

                  Something like that.
                4. +1
                  10 January 2019 16: 24
                  Quote: Tlauicol
                  Then I wanted to ask what kind of landing was in the rear — the Germans scraped 42 navigable vessels in spring 14 — did the Caucasus protect them from the Black Sea Fleet from the rear?

                  I recall that in one of the German directives or orders for operations in the southern direction for the summer of 1942, landing parties were also prescribed on the Black Sea coast to accelerate the offensive along the coast.
          2. +1
            10 January 2019 14: 38
            In fairness - 12, the rest remained in the field. And the question of getting into a war or not in Turkey was just beginning to be discussed.

            But it could be everything really.
          3. WW2
            -2
            11 January 2019 20: 40
            Quote: Serg65
            Those. 25 Turkish divisions standing on the Soviet-Turkish border in anticipation of the Germans breaking through the Caucasus ridge were designed to repel allies from Iran?

            No, they cried there to prevent possible Soviet aggression.
            The Soviet attack on Iran in 1941 did not go unnoticed by the Turks.
      2. +1
        10 January 2019 09: 31
        If it weren’t for the Black Sea Fleet, the Caucasus would most likely have been lost, and there, it’s not far from the loss of the whole war.

        If it were not for the sea landing, then Leningrad would not have been able to hold onto it.
        So the contribution of the fleet is undeniable. You can argue about effectiveness, but here, as a rule, the political and technological components dominate.
        1. +2
          10 January 2019 11: 09
          Well, this is doubtful, the 1941-1942 had four tactical assault forces on the Baltic, all were almost completely destroyed by the Germans within a very short time and without diverting forces from other sectors of the front.
          1. 0
            10 January 2019 11: 13
            the losses were big. But with their lives, sailors made it possible to establish a defense.
            The landing in Oranienbaum made it possible to prepare a strike with a tank brigade, which ultimately brought results despite heavy losses.
            1. +2
              10 January 2019 16: 34
              Quote: glory1974
              The landing in Oranienbaum made it possible to prepare a strike with a tank brigade, which ultimately brought results despite heavy losses.

              The offensive 124 OTB resulted in the almost complete destruction of the brigade. Combat mission:
              8.10.41 under cover of darkness, suddenly break through the highway north of Uritsk through the front line of the enemy’s defense, go to the area of ​​the village. Lenin, to establish contact with the sea landing, landed in Strelninsky park. In the future, hiding behind its side Strelna, step on the village. Volodarskoe, destroy in conjunction with 6 OBrMP Uritskaya group of the enemy
              - the brigade was not completed.
            2. WW2
              -1
              11 January 2019 20: 43
              Quote: glory1974
              the losses were big. But with their lives, sailors made it possible to establish a defense.

              No. Just died from a mediocre command.
          2. +2
            10 January 2019 19: 41
            Forgive the female curiosity: does the author stand out as a green background when he participates in a discussion?
      3. WW2
        -2
        11 January 2019 20: 39
        Quote: Rakovor
        If it weren’t for the Black Sea Fleet, the Caucasus would most likely have been lost, and there, it’s not far from the loss of the whole war.

        I'm sorry, what? But what did the fleet have to do with the Caucasus?
        And then, what does the loss of the Caucasus have to do with anything?
        Quote: Rakovor
        Yes, he alone warned the very same Turkey against making rash decisions.

        Turkey wanted to sneeze on the Black Sea Fleet. And the whole thing, and in parts. But on the Anglo-Saxons she could sneeze and wanted, but could not. Therefore, the presence or absence of the Black Sea Fleet in the Black Sea, and even the loss or not of the loss of the Caucasus would have no effect on Turkey’s position.
        1. 0
          11 January 2019 23: 07
          Turkey wanted to sneeze on the Black Sea Fleet. And the whole thing, and in parts. But on the Anglo-Saxons she could sneeze and wanted, but could not. Therefore, the presence or absence of the Black Sea Fleet in the Black Sea, and even the loss or not of the loss of the Caucasus would have no effect on Turkey’s position.


          In Turkey, by the time the Germans invaded the Caucasus, there were many politicians in favor of joining the Axis and attacking the USSR. True, they did not have time to do anything, even to influence the official position of Turkey.
          But start the Germans faster, everything could be. Do not forget, this is 1942, Germany on the Volga, bombing the ports on the Caspian Sea, hundreds of kilometers to the Turkish border, Rommel rushes east to Suez, the battle for the Atlantic is not even close, the US is stuck with the Japanese ...

          Everything is extremely obvious, including the potential of the Anglo-Saxons.
          1. WW2
            -1
            11 January 2019 23: 19
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            But start the Germans faster, everything could be. Do not forget, this is 1942, Germany on the Volga, bombing the ports on the Caspian Sea, hundreds of kilometers to the Turkish border, Rommel rushes east to Suez, the battle for the Atlantic is not even close, the US is stuck with the Japanese ...

            This may not be obvious to you. And the Turks, oh, as was obvious.
            And the Bolsheviks are obvious.
            And even the Germans are obvious.
            It was not for nothing that in 1941 they risked the "crazy Hess" trying to make peace with the Anglo-Saxons. Poland turned out to be a banal setup for them. Pyrrhic victory.
  5. +4
    10 January 2019 07: 06
    there is such dr. Greek bike:
    "A blind Spartan went to war. - Why are you going? - To blunt the enemy sword ..."

    It is quite possible to place an article instead of an epigraph. About the price of this drop of blood, a feather hanging out of balance
    1. +2
      10 January 2019 09: 20
      Well, everything was not so bad though.
      1. 0
        10 January 2019 09: 23
        Well, there were no blind Spartans, but the meaning is clear
  6. +2
    10 January 2019 08: 14
    Somehow they bypassed the construction of one of the major submarine forces, before the war they built more than 200 submarines. The stake before the war was made on submarines.
    1. +4
      10 January 2019 09: 22
      Everything failed to squeeze, the boats and naval aviation did not fit.
      1. 0
        10 January 2019 09: 50
        Well, it all depends on the doctrine of the use of the Navy. And Kuznetsov and others in their memoirs directly wrote about the defensive function of the Navy. The main task is to defend your coast, support the ground forces, and cabotage. Actually, only this was the means and the ship's crew. The tasks are not striking in their scale, but, as far as they depended on the fleet, were completed. Something I do not recall a single landing operation of the enemy, not to mention a successful one.
        And under this doctrine, submarines were built. And aviation. And torpedo boats. Maybe that’s why neither the Kriegsmarine nor the IIF risked their fleets. No, of course, they didn’t really need it, but still ...
        And the question to the author is - what kind of evacuation from Hanko Island are we talking about?
        1. +2
          10 January 2019 11: 09
          Evacuation of the Hanko Naval Base Garrison October 23 - December 5 1941
        2. +1
          10 January 2019 11: 22
          Quote: Zvonarev
          What kind of evacuation from the island of Hanko are we talking about?

          The author probably accidentally called the peninsula an island ... forgive him hi
          1. +1
            10 January 2019 14: 42
            A typo. In the Vordov file, from which I drove everything in the peninsula. Probably carelessly moved the mouse)))
            Leave as a monument.
  7. +3
    10 January 2019 08: 22
    Thanks. An interesting article, it will be useful to read some "forum fighters" such as Kota Kuzi, who, with persistence worthy of a better application, prove that our country does not need a fleet in principle.
    1. +1
      10 January 2019 19: 46
      In this case, let him move to the desert: there are no seas and no one to annoy him
  8. +11
    10 January 2019 08: 33
    Oh, the author wrote a lot of things here, there is something to argue with, there is something to agree with. On a separate book typed.
    When we say that the Navy was useless in the Second World War, as a rule, the Navy is understood only as a ship’s composition, and as a model and ideal they are kept in the head of the US Navy. But such an assessment is completely inadequate. Firstly, the Navy is not only ships, it is also aviation and coastal troops. This must be remembered, and the author basically says this. Because when you start to study the statistics of enemy losses, and your losses, it suddenly turns out that our sea pilots drowned the German tonnage more than they did ours. Moreover, if we compare the dynamics of the losses, it turns out that our catastrophic losses of the ship’s composition in the 1941 year are lower than the losses of the German ship’s composition in the 1945 year — here's a blitzkrieg.
    And if we are to approach with such logic, where the “uselessness” criterion is based on the losses of 41, then the land army is not very useful, because the losses on the ground were also huge. And by the way, the only unit that met the enemy on June 22 in full combat readiness was in the fleet - this is the Black Sea Fleet (though this did not prevent Oktyabrsky from doing other "dubious" cases later).
    The fleet did not have problems, the country had problems (as now, by the way). Then during the 10 years of industrialization, it was not possible to make a fleet, train personnel, create ships and develop tactics equal to the best fleets in the world. It was the same on land and in the air.
    1. +3
      10 January 2019 09: 27
      It should be noted that the fleet suffered significant losses in the ship’s composition with the loss of bases and repair sites in 41 - Memel, Tallinn, Nikolaevsk. And they, as it were, were not comparable with the military.

      As for the problems, the main problem is, of course, the interaction of the fleet and the army. We did not have it at the beginning of the war from the word at all. Towards the end of the war, something has changed, but not by much.
      But here it must be understood that in the army there was even no interaction between their troops at the beginning of the war (infantry separately, artillery separately, tanks separately, the Air Force separately (and there is also its own division).
      And then the fleet with its own peculiarities (like there is weather in which the ships cannot go to sea or land troops).

      Everything else is more a consequence of this problem.
      1. +2
        10 January 2019 09: 50
        Quote: alstr
        It should be noted that the fleet suffered significant losses in the ship’s composition due to the loss of bases and repair sites in the 41 of Memel, Tallinn, Nikolaevsk.
        Maybe Nikolaev? Well, then, what kind of losses are there - the cruisers of the 68 project and the destroyers of the 30 project? In any case, they stood in the building and were not ready, it makes no sense to assign them to the combat losses of the ship’s crew.
        1. 0
          10 January 2019 11: 46
          Well yes. Nikolaev.
          I don’t know much about the Black Sea, but in the Baltic several repair submarines were blown up during the retreat.
          1. 0
            10 January 2019 23: 59
            I found a book on losses. http://prussia.online/books/poteri-boevih-korabley-i-katerov-vmf-sssr-v-period-velikoy-otechestvennoy-voyni-1941-1945-gg

            According to it, it turns out that in the docks or repairs (that is, ships already entered) were lost: 2 destroyers, 7 submarines, 1 minzag (training), 2 shopping malls, 1 canal boat. Another 3 minesweepers were interned in Sweden (by the way, for the first time I learned about it).
            Plus, a different trifle from the southern flotillas (they themselves drowned or blew up).

            And this is without ships under construction.
            On the ships under construction in Nikolaev:
            "battleship of project 23" Soviet Ukraine ", light cruisers of project 68" Ordzhonikidze "and" Sverdlov ", destroyers of project 30" Otmenny "," Obuchenny "," Desperate "and" Sociable ", 4 patrol ships of project 29 of the class" Yastreb ", several submarines ".
            If the battleship and the cruisers could hardly have been completed, then the destroyers, submarines and patrol boats - completely.
        2. +1
          10 January 2019 12: 02
          Quote: Alex_59
          Maybe Nikolaev? Well, then, what kind of losses are there - Project 68 cruisers and Project 30 destroyers?

          There were indirect losses - precisely because of the loss of full-fledged ship repair and delayed repair of ships at inappropriate capacities for this, the same Black Sea Fleet by the summer of 1942 was cramped to a flotilla of a pair of combat-ready missile launchers, a pair of aircraft, three or four EMs and a couple of missile systems.
          1. +4
            10 January 2019 12: 45
            Quote: Alexey RA
            the same Black Sea Fleet by the summer of 1942 has contracted

            By the summer of 1942, in general, almost everything had shrunk. The hardest moment was.
            There are many paradoxes in the situation with the fleet. He was shrinking, but even in this form he potentially had the opportunity to dominate the theater, because the adversary did not have this either. However, it did not dominate, and the main burden of hostilities on both sides lay on small watercraft and aviation, that is, as if large artillery ships did not decide anything. The Germans took Sevastopol in general on inflatable boats (roughly speaking) and Oktyabrsky was waiting for battleships from Italy. Much of the history of the fleet consists of such oddities. They drowned Väinemänen - it was scary, but the goal was worth it. Sank "Niobe" - not the right target, but it was an air defense cruiser, that is, the target is more difficult than "Väinemänen". In the 45th they had complete domination in the Baltic, but they could not disrupt the evacuation from Courland, and they almost did not try to drown the "Scheer", which hammered at the ground forces. In general, there are many oddities.
            1. 0
              10 January 2019 13: 45
              Quote: Alex_59
              He got bored with something, but even in this form he could potentially dominate the theater, because the adversary did not have this either.

              The adversary had the 8th air corps. Which multiplied by zero all dominance at sea, and not only ours. In the area of ​​his work, it was difficult even LCs to survive.
              Quote: Alex_59
              They drowned Väinemänen - it was scary, but the goal was worth it. Sank "Niobe" - not the right target, but it was an air defense cruiser, that is, the target is more difficult than "Väinemänen".

              The forces that were involved in the operation to sink the Niobe (137 vehicles) would have been enough for the Tirpitz. smile
              Quote: Alex_59
              In the 45th they had complete domination in the Baltic, but they could not disrupt the evacuation from Courland, and they almost did not try to drown the "Scheer", which hammered at the ground forces.

              Fleet Aviation, sir. Attack aircraft on their own, dive bombers on their own, and the mtap are sitting on the airfield and paw, looking at the last torpedo. And in order to at least somehow coordinate their actions, you need a minimum of the headquarters of the Air Force.
              1. +1
                10 January 2019 13: 52
                Quote: Alexey RA
                The forces that were involved in the operation to sink the Niobe (137 vehicles) would have been enough for the Tirpitz.
                Well, that's what I'm talking about. Is this not a paradox? In 1944, there were forces and a coordinated powerful attack to drown the Niobe, which would have been enough for the Tirpitz, and in 1945, the passive scattered kick of the Scheer, as if it was not 45, but 41 years in the yard.
                1. +1
                  10 January 2019 14: 28
                  Quote: Alex_59
                  In 1944, there were forces and a coordinated powerful attack to drown the Niobe, which would have been enough for the Tirpitz, and in 1945, the passive scattered kick of the Scheer, as if the yard was not 45, but 41 years old.

                  So in 1944, "Niobe" was kicked the second time, and between the first and second raids there was intensive preparation, and the operation was planned at the level of the Red Banner Baltic Fleet Air Force headquarters.
                  And the first time the attack on the "Niobe" was no different from "wild boar hunting".
                  1. +1
                    10 January 2019 15: 02
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    So in 1944 "Niobe" was kicked the second time, and between the first and second raids there was intensive preparation
                    I know. Sorry for the immodesty, but even here my grandfather had a hand in it. It's not my fault, it happened)))
                  2. WW2
                    -2
                    11 January 2019 20: 49
                    Quote: Alexey RA
                    So in 1944, "Niobe" was kicked the second time, and between the first and second raids there was intensive preparation, and the operation was planned at the level of the Red Banner Baltic Fleet Air Force headquarters.

                    Drowning a cruiser air defense aircraft, this is bullshit.
                    There was no preparation. Niobe was simply mistaken for the Finnish Brbo. Confused, in other words.
                2. 0
                  10 January 2019 15: 12
                  This is always the case when there is no clear management.
    2. +1
      10 January 2019 09: 31
      And on the BF why the fleet was in full readiness? Everywhere, memoirs are circulating that Kuznetsov personally saved the Black Sea Fleet with his telegram, and the only major defeat of June 41 was only in Belarus, where Pavlov (in the best case for him because of negligence) allowed the defeat of his troops.
      1. +2
        10 January 2019 09: 46
        Quote: Aviator_
        the only major defeat of June 41 was only in Belarus, where Pavlov (at best because of negligence) allowed the defeat of his troops.
        Well, I would not say that Fedor Isidorovich’s affairs were much better than Pavlov’s.
        1. 0
          10 January 2019 20: 46
          Well, no one had such a failure as Pavlov’s.
          1. 0
            11 January 2019 11: 30
            Quote: Aviator_
            Well, no one had such a failure as Pavlov’s.

            Come on. Germans took Riga from its neighbors in the Baltic on June 30, Pskov on July 8, and reached the Luga border on July 12.
            1. 0
              11 January 2019 20: 39
              The encirclement and defeat of the compounds, as in Belarus, was nowhere else.
              1. 0
                11 January 2019 23: 08
                The configuration of the front and the ratio of forces did not give.
                1. +1
                  12 January 2019 12: 37
                  Another commander, that's all. What did so many troops do in the Brest fortress until the 22 of June?
                  By 22 on June 1941, 8 infantry battalions, 1 reconnaissance, 1 artillery regiment and 2 artillery battalions (PTO and air defense), some special units of infantry regiments and corps units, and enlistment units of the 6 and XUM Ord of the 42th ORUM 28th Infantry Corps of the 4th Army, units of the 17th Red Banner Brest Border Detachment, 33th Separate Engineering Regiment, part of the 132th Battalion of the NKVD Convoy Forces, unit headquarters (division headquarters and 28th Rifle th corps were located in Brest), in total about 9 thousand people, not including family members (300 families of military personnel).
    3. WW2
      -4
      11 January 2019 20: 47
      Quote: Alex_59
      Then for 10 years of industrialization

      Until 2 MV there was no industrialization in the USSR, this is a Soviet myth.
      Industrialization in the USSR happened in the 50s. As a result of the scientific and technological revolution, which took place in the USSR in the late 40s and early 50s.
      Industrialization is a consequence of the scientific and technological revolution. If you just buy a lot of machine tools and equipment abroad, no industrialization will happen. And the efforts simply go into the sand.
  9. +5
    10 January 2019 08: 47
    Similarly to the army, the Red Army air forces were unable to stop the Luftwaffe, and all fleet operations were carried out with the full domination of the enemy in the air.
    And here I completely disagree. The domination of the enemy is good when the aircraft of the fleet in the very first months of the war bombed his capital. Let with a low military result, but with a political one. What kind of domination can we talk about when our Constantsa was bombed throughout 1941? With losses - but bombed. Immediately after the end of the assault on Perekop, when the battles were going on in the steppes between Dzhankoy and Yevpatoria - what did Manstein write about our aviation? In fact, he wrote that Russian pilots do whatever they want in the sky, the infantry cannot raise their heads in the steppe. This does not in any way attract "domination". Yes, ours suffered heavy losses, died, rarely took the initiative, but they did not surrender the sky, the enemy did not have dominance.
    1. +2
      10 January 2019 09: 19
      Immediately after the end of the assault on Perekop, when battles were fought in the steppes between Dzhankoi and Evpatoria - what did Manstein write about our aircraft? He wrote in essence that Russian pilots are doing what they want in the sky, infantry cannot lift their heads in the steppe.


      This was quickly stopped by the Germans at the earliest opportunity. They simply did not have enough air power. In addition, I wrote about actions over the sea, in not at all - and over the sea our ships were very often deprived of air support.
      1. +5
        10 January 2019 09: 35
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        This was quickly suppressed by the Germans at the first opportunity.
        This was not stopped by them at all, because
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        They simply did not have enough air force
        , which in turn was the result of a gross strategic miscalculation of German intelligence regarding our forces. What the Germans were masters in was the ability to get together at the right time, in the right place. During the assault on Perekop, this was exactly what happened - the Germans simply plowed our defense, sharply increasing the grouping of aviation and the intensity of its actions, while the combat operation of our aircraft did not change. Having quickly and powerfully worked on Perekop and secured a breakthrough, the Germans immediately scattered aviation in other directions, in particular under Rostov, leaving few fighter aircraft all over the Crimea. And after that, Manstein wrote about how our aviation was hammering his infantry in the steppe, and the Luftwaffe could not cover it. As a result, the situation changed, the German offensive stalled, and ultimately they did not succeed in taking Sevastopol on the move. So here we see different tactics for them and ours, and it’s definitely impossible to say which one is better. Their ability to maneuver and concentrate made it possible to carry out quick effective breakthroughs, but did not allow them to constantly influence the enemy, which ultimately negatively affected overall success.
        I know this question in such detail because my grandfather fought there, as part of the Freydorf Fleet Aviation Group.
        over the sea, our ships very often were deprived of air support.
        I agree. Often there was no cover.
    2. 072
      +1
      10 January 2019 09: 29
      Those losses that the Air Force suffered in the early days of the war on earth hurt us for a long time,
  10. +5
    10 January 2019 09: 02
    It is worth asking a question - which naval forces have the same operation in their assets? To supply an isolated enclave, with tens of thousands of defenders, hundreds of days in a row, against an enemy dominating in the air? Who else could do that? Who at least tried to do something like that?

    The Tokyo Express, for example.
    Of course, the Japanese forces on the Guadalcanal were smaller than ours in Sevastopol, but also tens of thousands, and the distances there are far from Black Sea.
    1. +2
      10 January 2019 09: 17
      Partly agree, the Tokyo Express trains are somewhat similar. But the scale is still not the same, not the same.
      1. +4
        10 January 2019 09: 57
        Well, why? Although the scale is not the same, deliveries were made under conditions of almost dominance of the USA at sea and in the air. In the Black Sea, enemy domination was only in the air. In addition, distances are also an important factor.
        Another example is the supply of the garrison of Malta. Yes, again the scale is not the same, but it seems to me that the situation with Sevastopol is nevertheless closer than Guadalcanal.
        1. 0
          10 January 2019 10: 52
          There was no US domination, not at sea, not in the air, there was approximate equality.
          1. +3
            10 January 2019 12: 08
            Quote: Rakovor
            There was no US domination, not at sea, not in the air, there was approximate equality.

            In those parts, dominance was transient. In the afternoon, the United States dominated the air and sea. At night, the Japanese dominated the sea.
            It was in order to stop this pendulum at least for a day that the Japanese sent LK and MRT to fire at the "Cactus". Because their TRs with heavy weapons and ammunition did not have time to pass the US aviation zone during the dark, reach Guadalcanal and unload. In the best case, unloading was carried out in the morning - and immediately at the place of unloading and on the TR, air strikes began.
  11. 0
    10 January 2019 09: 38
    "A lot of bukav". Again, "it is impossible to grasp the immensity" (K. Prutkov). As soon as the author breaks up this article into a series of notes, it would be better. To consider the fleet in isolation from the industrial base of the country is at least naive, and this is what the author is doing. Therefore, it was extremely unreasonable to build into an aircraft carrier at the end of the 40s, when huge funds were required for the atomic project and jet aircraft. I had to choose: either an aircraft carrier (with piston aircraft), or an atomic bomb with jet aircraft.
  12. +5
    10 January 2019 09: 45
    The only question that a German or British submariner could really have encountered when familiarizing themselves with Soviet submarines and weapons is: "How can this be fought?"

    But this question the Russian submariner could ask German or American. Recall that the Germans until 1942 suffered from unexploded torpedoes (Prynn sank the Royal OUK in Scapa Flow with 2 torpedoes after 5 that did not explode) and the Americans until mid-1943. And our torpedoes (a copy of the Italian) exploded!
    The submarines themselves were different in our Navy. It was impossible to fight on the babies of series VI. D-I, Shch-II L-III Shch-V in design went up to the submarines of the late WWI (but such boats at the beginning of the war were full in other fleets), then the Germans (S-ki) of the IX series, built according to the German project, post with an exact copy of the German series 7, the most massive in the world, and with the experience of these boats the Pike of the tenth series, L-ki of the 13th series and large babies of the 15th series were created.
    And in surface ships, starting from the construction of frankly disastrous TFRs such as Hurricane and troubled leaders of Leningrad, the USSR was able to build using the experience of others and drawings of the cruiser Kirov and begin to build a 68 project, quite at the level and even higher than the Anglo-Saxon analogues (analysis of the merits and flaws was on the forum). And they were already entering the construction of destroyers of the 35th series with advanced vehicles and universal artillery of the Civil Code.
    During the war, our fleet lagged behind in the development of all types of ships, because it simply did not have the opportunity to build, but quickly caught up with what was lost after the war. Because before the war, a backlog of design work was created, tested by the experience and practice of construction.
    1. +1
      10 January 2019 16: 51
      Quote: Potter
      But this question the Russian submariner could ask German or American. Recall that the Germans until 1942 suffered from unexploded torpedoes (Prynn sank the Royal OUK in Scapa Flow with 2 torpedoes after 5 that did not explode) and the Americans until mid-1943. And our torpedoes (a copy of the Italian) exploded!

      Mwa ha ha ... from an American point of view, Prin was wildly lucky - his percentage of fuses was just great.
      To the west of the Truk Islands, the Tinoza submarine met the Tonan Maru No. 3 tanker, which was sailing without security.
      On board the Tinoza there were 16 torpedoes. The commander immediately attacked the tanker with four torpedoes, which were fired at a high angle of view from a distance of about 3600 m. Two torpedoes hit the tanker's stern, he stopped and turned with his left side to the boat. Two more torpedoes were fired. Two explosions followed, and the tanker stalled.
      The situation was too favorable: the tanker was standing still, there weren’t a single anti-submarine ship nearby, and the commander had enough time to take a more advantageous position and attack again. The submarine Tinoza began rapprochement with the enemy for a torpedo attack.
      Having carefully chosen a position 800 m from the tanker, the commander fired one torpedo. Watching the progress of the torpedo into the periscope, he saw a splash at the side of the target, but there was no explosion. The torpedo did not explode. For the purpose, three more torpedoes were fired sequentially and also to no avail. The tanker, devoid of progress, swayed calmly on the surface of the sea. The team had the impression that the torpedoes were equipped not with thom, but with sawdust.
      10 torpedoes from a short distance and at a 90 ° meeting angle have already been fired sequentially on the tanker. The shooting lasted several hours. Before the shot, all torpedoes were carefully inspected. Eight hits were recorded, and eight times after the shot, instead of a deafening explosion, silence followed.
      The commander stopped firing when one torpedo remained on board the boat. He decided to take her to Pearl Harbor for a thorough check.
      1. +1
        11 January 2019 00: 48
        And you also need to remember the opening of the hydrostat in the stern of American torpedoes, because of which at high speed it showed less pressure, and the torpedoes went deeper than necessary.
        And night battles with the Japanese, in which lighting shells did not work out of the word at all.
        Although such a situation, when several boats have one set of serviceable batteries, and it is endlessly rearranged, it seems that no other fleet, except the Soviet, was.
        1. +1
          11 January 2019 11: 21
          Quote: Narak-zempo
          And you also need to remember the opening of the hydrostat in the stern of American torpedoes, because of which at high speed it showed less pressure, and the torpedoes went deeper than necessary.

          Yes, the Yankees torpedo crisis went from the beginning of the war until 1944. EMNIP, submarine torpedoes were fixed in three stages (magnetic fuse, stroke depth, contact fuse). Moreover, each time the story was repeated anew: at first the Bureau of Armaments resisted for a long time and strenuously, claiming that this could not be, then the sailors brought the results of their tests, connected the admirals (up to Nimitz) to the case - and only after that the armed men surrendered, carried out their tests and they were surprised to find that yes, it didn’t work.
          Moreover, there were problems with aircraft torpedoes - in 1943, 2/3 of the Mark 13s dropped were drowned, left course and depth, did not start the engine.
          1. 0
            11 January 2019 23: 10
            However, 55% of all ships built in Japan, both combat and non-combatant.
    2. WW2
      -3
      11 January 2019 20: 55
      Quote: Potter
      And our torpedoes (a copy of the Italian) exploded!

      At least for a start, you asked about the results of foreign "non-exploding" torpedoes and Soviet "exploding" ones.
      The question was asked correctly, "how can you fight on this?"
      Quote: Potter
      built according to the German design, were a replica of the German series 7

      Almost doesn't count. And class "C" boats up to sevens were like cancer before ...
      Quote: Potter
      The USSR was able to build using the experience of others and the drawings of the cruiser Kirov and begin to build a 68 project, quite at the level and even higher than the Anglo-Saxon analogues

      All further went pure nonsense.
      Quote: Potter
      but quickly caught up after the war.

      And then insanity grew stronger and stronger.
  13. -9
    10 January 2019 10: 03
    The USSR / Russia is geographically surrounded (Baltic, Black) or freezing (White, Okhotsk) seas, in which any fleet is a whipping boy from the enemy armed with aircraft, and now also anti-ship missiles.

    In these conditions, keeping the ocean fleet (battleships, aircraft carriers, BOD, ROK, etc.) is the height of insanity, which was demonstrated in WWII. However, figures such as Kuznetsov and Gorshkov, bit the bit, riveted battleships and aircraft-carrying ships like pies, leading the Russian Navy to a logical ending - a broken trough.

    The continental sphere of national interests dictates Russia to focus on ground forces (not counting the strategic nuclear forces), and not on the fleet, so we need a purely concretely small corvette fleet plus a dozen Yasen / Husky attack nuclear submarines to display the flag.

    As for the strategic nuclear forces, it is necessary to immediately cut all nuclear submarines with ballistic missiles on board, including the newest ones with Bulava, and replace them with two orders of magnitude cheaper Poseidons with 100 Mtn charges on board, capable of destroying the economy and infrastructure at once. all countries without exception - geopolitical adversaries of Russia, which for centuries have deployed their productive forces exclusively on the sea coast.
    1. +6
      10 January 2019 11: 19
      In these conditions, keeping the ocean fleet (battleships, aircraft carriers, BOD, RK, etc.) is the height of insanity, which was demonstrated in WWII

      You are right my friend! Soviet aircraft carriers and missile cruisers in WWII did not show themselves in any way !!!!!
      figures such as Kuznetsov and Gorshkov, bit a bit, riveted battleships and aircraft carriers like pies, leading the Russian Navy to a logical ending - a broken trough

      Yeah, can you imagine they also destroyed the Union, here are the rags !!!
      Quote: Operator
      The continental sphere of national interests dictates that Russia focus on ground forces (not counting SNF)

      And right there
      Quote: Operator
      As for the strategic nuclear forces, all nuclear submarines with ballistic missiles on board, including the newest ones with Bulava, must be immediately cut into scrap metal.

      what Does it stick like that?
      1. WW2
        -3
        11 January 2019 21: 02
        Quote: Serg65
        Yeah, can you imagine they also destroyed the Union, here are the rags !!!

        It is they and others like them. In any case, people with large epaulets.
    2. WW2
      -3
      11 January 2019 21: 02
      Quote: Operator
      However, figures such as Kuznetsov and Gorshkov, bit the bit, riveted battleships and aircraft-carrying ships like pies, leading the Russian Navy to a logical ending - a broken trough.

      No, they and land marshals did not lead the army and navy to a trough, but the country. Muzzled her with their concerns about defenses and destroyed.
      Not the Trotskyists.
      Not the Khrushchevites.
      No overseas agents.
      The real and correct Marxist-Leninists destroyed.
      Quote: Operator
      plus a dozen strike nuclear submarines of the Ash / Husky class to demonstrate the flag.

      21 century in the yard. Internet is everywhere. Demosnasstration of the flag now no one needs.
    3. 0
      13 August 2020 20: 53
      Quote: Operator
      As for the strategic nuclear forces, it is necessary to immediately cut all nuclear submarines with ballistic missiles on board, including the newest ones with Bulava, and replace them with two orders of magnitude cheaper Poseidons with 100 Mtn charges on board, capable of destroying the economy and infrastructure at once. all countries without exception - geopolitical adversaries of Russia, which for centuries have deployed their productive forces exclusively on the sea coast.


      Heresy of the purest water ...
  14. BAI
    0
    10 January 2019 10: 07
    1.
    low technical and technological development of both the fleet and the country as a whole

    The fleet is a high-tech weapon, technical backwardness, really, the cause of defeat. After the Crimean one, they both fell behind and did not catch up.
    2.
    The merit of the Northern Fleet is described by the simple and capacious word "convoys"

    It should be noted that the Northern Fleet met the war in a mighty composition: 8 destroyers, of which 2 are old, 7 patrol ships, 15 submarines, 15 patrol boats of the MO type, several torpedo boats and minesweepers. The aviation of the Northern Fleet consisted of 116 aircraft, mostly of outdated types.
    3.
    Army commanders cannot effectively command the fleet. It's impossible.

    One claim of the marshals to the submarine commander "Why didn't they throw grenades on the destroyer ?!" explains everything.
    1. +1
      10 January 2019 11: 12
      Quote: BAI
      One claim marshals to the commander of the submarine

      Marshal was alone!
      1. BAI
        +1
        10 January 2019 11: 32
        Well, apart from Grechko, there were probably also marshals at the meeting. And no one objected.
        1. +1
          10 January 2019 11: 47
          what I beg you, who would object to the Minister, and in the 1962-th Minister was Malinovsky. Grechko at that time was the commander in chief of the Warsaw Pact troops.
          1. BAI
            0
            10 January 2019 15: 57
            Grechko said these words as deputy defense minister.
  15. +5
    10 January 2019 10: 59
    Moreover, the experience of the past by the fleet could not be used - the revolution led to a break in historical continuity, including with personnel. All the often mentioned failures of naval commanders - from the inability to provide air defense of ships on the Black Sea to the inability to stop German artillery fire from the sea in 1945 in the Baltic - they are from there.

    I am embarrassed to ask - how would historical continuity and the vast experience of the WWII help in providing air defense of ships? Did the RIF officers have that kind of experience? wink
    Yes, and about inability to stop German artillery fire from the sea in 1945 in the Baltic - here, too, the experience of PMA would not help. Because the main striking force of the KBF outside the Marquis puddle was aviation. And the RIF officers hardly had the experience of organizing coordinated attacks by attack aircraft, dive bombers and torpedo bombers on surface ships. But it is precisely the lack of coordination and normal organization with "wild boar hunting"and led to the failure of the air strike - the attacks of attack aircraft (suppression of air defense) and dive bombers were torn apart in time, the MTA was not involved in the strike, the fighters could not provide cover for the strikers.
    So, neither Soviet submarines nor Soviet torpedoes in developed countries would simply be considered a weapon suitable for war.

    Ahem ... it turns out. that the US is an undeveloped country? belay
    1. 0
      10 January 2019 11: 11
      Quote: Alexey RA
      Is the USA an undeveloped country?

      From the word at all!
      hi Aleksey hi
  16. +3
    10 January 2019 11: 09
    we didn’t have such landing capabilities that any American tank landing ship had in 1942 before raising the Andreevsky flag at Ivan Gren BDK

    Oh, Alexander, you or Oleg, I honestly say in thought, but you write like Kaptsov one-on-one! What is not, I will think of what is - I will take out for brackets!
    Until 41, it was not Stalin, let alone Kuznetsov, who didn’t think about any landings; moreover, until the mid-50s, they didn’t dream of large amphibious operations either, especially in the 56th the marines were abolished! But! Despite this, tank landing ships were built, for example, Project 572 of a representative of this under the name "Irgiz" he personally saw in Sevastopol, now he lives in Kronstadt! For this, my dear author, to put it mildly, you are lying!
    "How can you fight on this?"

    laughing Oh yeah! It would be especially funny to hear this from the Germans, on the design of which we built 44 submarines!
    It is worth remembering that the USSR at the beginning of the 1941 year was a technically backward country

    What was the backwardness? Only without fantasies?
    decree on the deployment of naval forces in the Mediterranean Stalin was given, but was in fact sabotaged

    what Was there really such an order? Can I get to know him?
    It is not surprising that the Germans managed to remove a significant part of the troops from the Crimea - they simply had nothing to drown

    what Hmm !!!!
    For the period from 8.04. by 12.05.44. 69 transports, 56 BDBs, 2 patrol ships, 2 gunboats, 3 minesweepers, 27 patrol boats, 32 ships of other types were sunk by aircraft and torpedo boats KChF. Total sunk 191 ship and boat.
    And lastly ... you should not quote Kuroedov as evidence of your theory!
    hi
    1. +1
      10 January 2019 12: 37
      The figures about the "German" evacuation of Crimea should be very carefully checked:
      For example:
      ".. From April 11 to April 20 inclusively, 17 convoys (66 transport ships) arrived in Crimea, 19 convoys (86 ships) to Constanta and Sulina. ten convoys (1 - air force and submarine, 3 - only submarine and 6 only air force) on which four torpedo attacks were carried out by submarines (12 torpedoes were fired) and 18 group sorties of aircraft (109 s / v, in which there was contact with the enemy) .. .
      ... 61,5 thousand enemy troops were evacuated from Crimea at the cost of losing only about 500 people (less than 1%), heavily and easily damaged in one vessel out of 152 past as part of convoys (1,3%). Our losses in the aircraft for the first ten days of the operation amounted to 26 machines, incl. 15 topmaster and torpedo bombers, five attack aircraft, one Pe-2, three fighters and a reconnaissance aircraft. "
      1. 0
        10 January 2019 12: 43
        Quote: Ryazanets87
        61,5 thousand enemy military personnel evacuated from Crimea

        For how long and who exactly was evacuated?
        1. +1
          10 January 2019 13: 13
          Figures for the period from April 11 to April 20 inclusive (data for M. Morozov). Whom? Even the Romanian (by the way, they gave losses):

          Here is the Alba-Yulia transport damaged by Soviet aviation.
          Or are specific units interested?
          1. 0
            10 January 2019 13: 29
            Quote: Ryazanets87
            Even romanian

            Romanians and the rear parts of the Luftwaffe and Kraismarin are just your figure. I summarized the evacuation time from April 8 to May 12.
    2. +2
      10 January 2019 13: 22
      Quote: Serg65
      and period from 8.04. by 12.05.44. 69 transports, 56 BDBs, 2 patrol ships, 2 gunboats, 3 minesweepers, 27 patrol boats, 32 ships of other types were sunk by aircraft and torpedo boats. Total sunk 191 ship and boat.

      Good day, Sergey!
      This is probably according to our data. The Germans write the following losses over the same period:
      13 transport vessels and tankers, 8 battleships, 7 submarine ships, 3 patrol ships, 1 mine breakers, 1 mine loaders, 5 lighters, 5 stormboats, 2 savers, 1 minesweepers, 7 1 towers, 1 55 towers Total XNUMX ships and boats.
      1. +1
        10 January 2019 13: 52
        Yes, numbers like "69 transports, 56 BDB" confused me. Considering that the BDB maximum was on the Black Sea 95. Here is an example:
        "On April 17, the sky cleared. During six group sorties (32 s / v), two convoys were attacked. The caravan, which included the transport" Helga "and" Prodromos ", was attacked. At 11:55 am, the submarine" M "unsuccessfully fired torpedoes at it. -111 "(Lieutenant Commander MI Khomyakov). Further, the caravan repelled two attacks of dive bombers, two mastheads and one torpedo bombers ... According to the reports of the Soviet crews, both German ships were sunk twice (!!) and once again damaged, although in reality we got off at worst with only shrapnel holes. "
        1. +2
          10 January 2019 13: 58
          Quote: Ryazanets87
          17 April the sky cleared. During six group sorties (32 s / v) two convoys were attacked. The caravan, which included the Helga and Prodromos vehicles, was subjected to a real assault
          Where are you quoting from, if not a secret?
          In the list of reliable losses for April 17, only the Dordogne lighter is listed, moreover, as destroyed by the TKA, and not by aviation.
          Transport "Helga" actually died on 11.05.1944/09.05.1944/XNUMX in the Sevastopol area from the actions of our aviation, the tanker "Prodromos" died on XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX also in the Sevastopol area and also from the actions of the pilots.
          Heh heh heh my grandfather's job. Nice to read such lines)))))
          1. +1
            10 January 2019 14: 21
            "Air Force of the Black Sea Fleet in the operation to liberate the Crimea", M. Morozov. \
            By the way, here is a photo of Prodromos:

            And here is how his death is described in the indicated source:
            "... During the day, the berths in the bays of Kazachya and Kamyshevaya were also under heavy fire, in which, according to the plan agreed with the army command, it was planned to land the bulk of the evacuees. The fire of our artillerymen, even from closed positions, turned out to be quite accurate. Having received a number of hits, the Prodromos tanker (877 brt) from the arrived convoy "Artist" sank. At 18:45, shortly before the release of the remnants of two German convoys, they were attacked by attack aircraft of the 11th ShAD. They did not inflict new losses (it is possible that only the skeleton of Uj 104 received hits), but they made an additional impression on the enemy's naval command ... "
            1. +1
              10 January 2019 15: 08
              Quote: Ryazanets87
              "Air Force of the Black Sea Fleet in the operation to liberate the Crimea", M. Morozov
              Do not read. I read it. Morozov writes well, he likes his other books, corresponded with him personally at the same forum.
              Losses of enemy fleets I recommend here: "Losses of enemy fleets in the maritime theater of operations in the Great Patriotic War 1941-1945", Bogatyrev SV, Strelbitsky KB, Reference edition, Lviv, TO "TriO", 1992, - 88 p.
        2. WW2
          -2
          11 January 2019 21: 06
          Quote: Ryazanets87
          According to reports from Soviet crews, both German ships were sunk twice (!!) and damaged once more, although in reality they escaped in the worst case with only shrapnel holes. "

          And this is far from the only case. The post-war adjustment of reports from Soviet submariners was sometimes overwhelming. There were GSSs (some who had already died by that time) who didn’t drown or drowned anything, which is a shame to report about.
      2. +1
        10 January 2019 14: 07
        hi Welcome Alex!
        Brinkman, when interrogated by the Gestapo, generally swore that the losses were insignificant! Well ... after Manstein's memoirs, why can't I believe our data! According to German data, 130 thousand were evacuated from Crimea. Again, according to German data, by the beginning of the offensive of our troops, the combat strength of the 17th army was 235.000 soldiers and officers, as of April 18, 124.233 combat personnel of the 17th army had gathered in Sevastopol, by May 9, on Chersonesos, according to According to German historians, there were about 50 thousand soldiers of the Wehrmacht, only 8606 people died at sea. Alexey, can you see the range of numbers? But that's not all! On the night of May 10, "Totila" and "Thea" are loaded near Chersonesos, the first took +/- 4 thousand, the second +/- 5 thousand. Our planes sank at 8.00 at 15.00, "Thea" sank with the help of our torpedo bombers at 23 8 miles from Chersonesos. According to German data, about 606 thousand Germans were killed! Those. XNUMX people died before and after the death of these transports? And who am I supposed to believe?
        1. +1
          10 January 2019 15: 15
          Quote: Serg65
          And who should I believe?

          I’m not talking about the loss of personnel, here I’m not ready to discuss because of my lack of knowledge. I'm talking about the loss of crew. It is extremely unlikely that ours built up an enemy ship and boat 191 for April-May 1944
    3. 0
      10 January 2019 14: 57
      Oh, Alexander, you or Oleg, I honestly say in thought, but you write like Kaptsov one-on-one! What is not, I will think of what is - I will take out for brackets!


      Stop clowning already.

      Before 41, not Stalin, and certainly not the Kuznetsov, didn’t think about what landings


      Well, so I write that they could not predict the nature of the future war, so it is.

      But! Despite this, tank landing ships were built, for example, Project 572, a representative of this under the name "Irgiz" he personally saw in Sevastopol, now he lives in Kronstadt!


      The marines were abolished, but not the idea of ​​landing forces in general, it was just planned to land motorized riflemen. But I'm talking about something else.

      Large landing craft "Ivan Gren" is our first ship that can drop equipment using a portable pontoon bridge. And the Americans had this opportunity, as it were, not with their first LST. I don’t know exactly when they did it for the first time, but at the beginning of WWII they already had this opportunity. We, it turns out, just caught up with Gren.

      But this greatly expands the possibility of disembarking - you can land heavy non-floating equipment where BDK cannot land it on the support.
      1. +1
        11 January 2019 11: 16
        In the 50's, ours, based on American experience, also practiced landing using pontoons, but came to the conclusion that this method is complex and not safe. It was after the contemplation of such a landing that Malinovsky freaked out and ordered the revival of the Marine Corps. Instead of pontoons, we got MDKVP.
        1. +1
          11 January 2019 23: 14
          Strange, it turned out that the Amer, in Africa, and in the Pacific Ocean, and in Korea later.
          And we came to the same in the 21 century.

          Rather, then, in 50's, they could not simply, that's all. Judge for yourself how much such a method extends the coastline available to the vehicle.
    4. +2
      10 January 2019 17: 06
      Quote: Serg65
      Before 41, not Stalin, and certainly not the Kuznetsov, didn’t think about what landings

      Come on, do not think. In 1939, the troops landed, but until 1941 they did not think. smile
      Before the war, the first massive cheap DSCs were even laid in the Baltic - on their basis in 1942 the famous "tenders" were designed.
      The idea of ​​creating small self-propelled tenders, which the Baltic Fleet needed, arose even before the war. At the direction of the KBF commander, Admiral V.F. Tributs, a project was developed at the Tallinn Shipyard, according to which six tenders were laid.
      1. +1
        11 January 2019 11: 28
        Quote: Alexey RA
        C'mon, don't think

        laughing Alexei this time you can recall the civil war, then in the Marine Corps there were up to 70 thousand people, but this does not mean that Lenin dreamed of landing on Foggy Albion!
        Quote: Alexey RA
        In 1939, the landings landed

        Actually, I’m not talking about tactical landings in the Baltic island zone, but on a global scale. If, for example, the General Staff of the Imperial Army planned to capture the Bosphorus with the help of an amphibious assault, then in advance it was not only building landing ships, but it also created the material base for this amphibious assault in Odessa, and all this long before the WWII.
  17. +3
    10 January 2019 11: 52
    A few days after the start of the war, the fleets were handed over to the command of strategic areas, and after their liquidation, the fleets began to submit to fronts. In fact, the Main Naval Headquarters "fell out" of the fleet management system. But the ground commanders could not properly put the tasks to the sailors.

    Hihix ... but this is just so beloved historical continuity in all its glory.
    With the outbreak of war, the Baltic Fleet was subordinated to the Commander-in-Chief of the 6th Army, defending the approaches to Petrograd. In the operational order of the Commander-in-Chief of the Baltic Fleet, the task was set: “... by all means and means to prevent the landing in the Gulf of Finland. To provide the Navy with full assistance in the accomplishment of this task to the ground forces and fortresses. ”

    Similar problems have occurred with the supply. So, during the evacuation of German troops from the Crimea, naval aviation sometimes sat for several days without fuel and ammunition. It is not surprising that the Germans managed to remove a significant part of the troops from the Crimea - there simply was nothing to drown them.

    Duc ... until 1944 naval aviation sat on the air force supply. And in 1944, the task of supplying naval aviation was withdrawn from the Air Force and assigned to the Navy, which was unable to provide it. And moreover, not only in Crimea - after the relocation of the KBF mine-torpedo aviation to the Baltic states, its rear arrived in a new place almost a month later. And before that, the MTA had one torpedo per squadron each week.
  18. -3
    10 January 2019 11: 52
    Quote: Serg65
    they also destroyed the Union

    If you want to ruin the country - "give" it a cruiser laughing
    1. +1
      10 January 2019 12: 10
      Quote: Operator
      If you want to ruin the country - "give" it a cruiser

      This is not about the country that the USSR was!
      1. WW2
        -4
        11 January 2019 21: 08
        Quote: Serg65
        This is not about the country that the USSR was!

        Why so? Just about the extremely poor USSR with a poor population.
    2. +3
      10 January 2019 12: 12
      Quote: Operator
      If you want to ruin the country - "give" it a cruiser

      Better than half a thousand tanks of five different types. And the same diverse set of ICBMs and aircraft. smile
      1. -1
        10 January 2019 14: 41
        Tanks and ICBMs of various types were at work - on our part they supported a strategy of mutual intimidation.
        1. +2
          10 January 2019 17: 13
          Quote: Operator
          Tanks and ICBMs of various types were at work - on our part they supported a strategy of mutual intimidation.

          So the fleet was in business: with its SSBNs with SLBMs it supported the HLG strategy, with its BODs and TAVKR it covered the SSBNs, and with its SSBNs and ICAPLs it threatened the transatlantic route for transporting the main US Army forces from the Metropolis to Europe.
          1. -3
            10 January 2019 21: 42
            Not a fig did not support the USSR Navy's strategic nuclear forces, but sat in their "bastions" like mice under a broom.

            For the funds that were spent on the creation of marine launchers (they are also the SSBNs), it would be possible to rivet the mine, soil and railway launchers of the Strategic Missile Forces of the USSR Armed Forces by an order of magnitude more.

            And why it was necessary to threaten the NATO transatlantic route, whereas in the case of TMV it started from nowhere and ended up nowhere - the ports of the USA and Western Europe would be destroyed first of all by the blows of Soviet ICBMs.
            1. 0
              10 January 2019 22: 26
              There is only one thing to understand here, that the first missiles, even ground ones, could hit targets at relatively short ranges, i.e. could not guaranteed to hit the entire territory of the United States. For this, atomic strategic missile carriers were needed.
              1. -3
                10 January 2019 22: 37
                Moreover, it was necessary to completely tie up with the SSBN in the beginning of the 1970-s, when numerous ICBMs began to get North America, rather than directly copying the US strategic nuclear forces with their Poseidons / Tridents.
            2. 0
              11 January 2019 11: 33
              Quote: Operator
              US and Western European ports would be destroyed first of all by the blows of Soviet ICBMs

              laughing With this approach to life, the question immediately arises ... why did the USSR Armed Forces need to have personnel in the 4,5 Lyama man, a huge mass of aircraft, tanks, artillery, vehicles ???? Bach rockets and EVERYTHING!
              1. -1
                11 January 2019 11: 45
                In addition to "bach missiles", the USSR Armed Forces were still tasked with occupying the territory of Western Europe and the Persian Gulf countries.
                1. +1
                  11 January 2019 14: 19
                  Quote: Operator
                  In addition to "bach missiles", the USSR Armed Forces still had tasks

                  laughing What are you not permanent, if the army then the BAH is canceled because there are tasks, and if the fleet then definitely the BACH !!! good
                  1. -1
                    11 January 2019 14: 47
                    Quote: Serg65
                    if the army then the BACH is canceled

                    You do not understand: the army does not cancel, but supplements the BAH - the occupation by land forces of the territory of Europe and the Gulf countries will occur only after the BAH.
  19. +2
    10 January 2019 12: 16
    To begin with, it is worth looking at the objective state of the Navy before the war. First, in the USSR by the 1941, the year simply did not exist in a sufficient number of competent naval command personnel. After 1937 of the year and the inability of the Navy to ensure the safe delivery of cargo to Spain (order to deploy fleet forces in the Mediterranean Sea, I.V. Stalin was given, but was sabotaged), as well as mass incompetence of naval commanders in the fleets , Stalin staged a grandiose "sweep" in the Navy, accompanied by mass repressions and the nomination of political appointees to command posts who had no idea whatsoever about naval activities. Naturally, this did not help. The level of training of command personnel continued to fall, the accident rate grew. In fact, the fleet began to exist as a fleet and, at the very least, to prepare for hostilities only from the spring of 1939, when Stalin firstly decided to appoint N.G. Kuznetsova, People's Commissar of the Navy, and secondly, when the repressions flywheel in the Navy went to idle, and the sailors stopped fevering with mass and sudden arrests. It was only in May that 1939 began to put in order the normative documents concerning combat training, charters and instructions.

    Dear author! If in the USSR Navy until 1939 everything was so sad with the command personnel, and in France there was complete order with the personnel (neither fleeing the country with the Civil War, nor repressions, excellent education and training to replace those retiring both in the Navy and in Army of the French Republic) - why then the PERFECT Navy of France did NOT help its state ANYTHING in 1940?
    So, to support the Calais garrison, the cruiser “Arethusa” and “Galatea” escorted by destroyers went to sea. They had to cover hospital ships heading to Calais with their artillery. The operation failed, as the Germans did not allow transports to the port, subjecting them to intensive shelling. When evacuating from Dunkirk, the Calcutta air defense cruiser took some part. That's the whole share of large ships in this operation, since the dominance of German aviation was overwhelming and their use threatened with major losses.
    1. +1
      10 January 2019 14: 50
      why then the PERFECT Navy of France did not help ANYONE to their state in 1940?


      It is better for you to ask the French. I do not understand them, in the French.
      1. +2
        10 January 2019 16: 03
        Then do not make unfounded accusations!
        If you can not compare the Soviet military commanders with their counterparts from other countries!
        And especially from countries that experienced similar political and civil upheavals, how our country experienced!
        Did the Kriegsmarine achieve much with their large surface ships?
        Didn't the world-famous German ship designers "mow" when creating warships?
        Our Northern Fleet could not find and send the "Admiral Speer" to the bottom!
        But Captain Bolchen did not dare to land on Dixon due to the not aimed fire of two old infantry howitzers!
        Yes, and the U-250 was raised by Soviet divers and the secret of the T-5 "Zaugkönig" was revealed!
        Soviet specialists, not British or American !!!
      2. +5
        10 January 2019 16: 23
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        I do not understand them in the French.

        And there is nothing to understand. Darlan, the fleet commander, had every opportunity to send capitulators in the forest, to withdraw the fleet to North Africa and, relying on the local French colonies (and very large land forces in them) to declare Free France by analogy with De Gaulle's. England and the United States would have supported it with hard coins and resources, so don't go to a fortuneteller. In this situation, to put it mildly, history would have taken a completely different path, because this gesture alone completely blocked the possibility of reinforcing troops in Africa for the Axis, that is, there could be no struggle of the Nanai boys "Desert Rat's & Africa Corps" by definition. Churchill, in order to move the Mediterranean strategy, would have to immediately think about the attacks, at least, of Sicily, that is, it would not be possible to pound water in a mortar, etc.
        But Darlan preferred the ministerial portfolio at Vichy. Result - Operation "Catapult" with all that it implies
        1. 0
          10 January 2019 19: 16
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          Darlan, the fleet commander, had every opportunity to send capitulators in the forest, to withdraw the fleet to North Africa and, relying on the local French colonies (and very large land forces in them) to declare Free France by analogy with De Gaulle's.

          In June 1940? Right after the fall of France? When it was not clear - will Britain stand? And having all the chances to provoke the Germans to an analogue of Operation Anton by their actions?
          No chance.
          Darlan’s only real chance in those conditions is to leave for the USA.
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          England and the United States would support with hard currency and resources

          Oh yeah ... England's resources after Operation Dynamo were truly limitless. smile
          1. +2
            10 January 2019 19: 49
            Quote: Alexey RA
            In June 1940? Immediately after the fall of France?

            Exactly
            Quote: Alexey RA
            When it was not clear - would Britain resist?

            Darlan - naval, he should better understand than others how difficult the landing on the British Isles
            Quote: Alexey RA
            And having all the chances to provoke the Germans to an analogue of Operation Anton by their actions?

            Yes, and a buffoon with her, let them capture France as a whole. The territorial stub that was kept under Vichy’s rule for some time is anything but not France
            Quote: Alexey RA
            Oh yeah ... England's resources after Operation Dynamo were truly limitless.

            Not after, but before, and resources - yes, quite. Darlan’s fleet would have known no problems with fuel, nor with repairs, nor with shells, and at first all this would go through England
            1. 0
              11 January 2019 14: 13
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Darlan - naval, he should better understand than others how difficult the landing on the British Isles

              The best parts of the British army of the Metropolis are defeated on the continent. An unarmed crowd was evacuated back to the island. The Germans are standing on the other side of the Canal. Where is the guarantee that against this background in Britain there will not be a government crisis, and they will not come to power pacifiers? wink
              Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
              Yes, and a buffoon with her, let them capture France as a whole. The territorial stub that was kept under Vichy’s rule for some time is anything but not France

              This is at least an illusion of independence. And so Darlan with his own hands gives up the French land bargained at the negotiations with such difficulty into the hands of hated Bosh. Yes, he will immediately be declared a provocateur and traitor.
              And by the way, where were the families of the officers of the Darlan forces?

              By the way, after such a trick with Darlan's ears, the likelihood that the Germans will begin to push hard for Operation Felix increases dramatically.
              1. 0
                11 January 2019 15: 08
                Quote: Alexey RA
                Where is the guarantee that against this background in Britain there will not be a government crisis, and peacekeepers will not come to power?

                There is no guarantee. As there is no guarantee that after the pacifiers come to power in England and peace is signed between England and Germany, France will remain. Who prevents the annexation of the remains of France to Hitler after signing the peace treaty? :)))))
                Quote: Alexey RA
                This is at least an illusion of independence.

                Politically completely unnecessary. The fact is that while France existed in some form ... it existed, and Hitler had a chance to present the matter in such a way that this stub is the "correct" France, but completely occupied France is a fact. which is impossible to close your eyes.
                Quote: Alexey RA
                And so Darlan with his own hands gives up the French land bargained at the negotiations with such difficulty into the hands of hated Bosh. Yes, he will immediately be declared a provocateur and traitor.

                And let it not hurt Gaul
                Quote: Alexey RA
                And by the way, where were the families of the officers of the Darlan forces?

                And what does this have to do with it? Who then expected from Germany some kind of repression? Nobody - we know about the Jewish ghettos and death plants for the lesser, and then no one knew
                Quote: Alexey RA
                By the way, after such a trick with Darlan's ears, the likelihood that the Germans will begin to push hard for Operation Felix increases dramatically.

                That is, they will also get involved in the war with Spain? Use it :)))))))))) And they would hardly succeed in capturing Gibraltar with any layouts, and even then no one bothered to supply Africa bypassing through Suez
              2. WW2
                -1
                11 January 2019 21: 15
                Quote: Alexey RA
                The best parts of the British army of the Metropolis are defeated on the continent.

                Actually, there was a miserable British expeditionary force on the continents. A drop in the sea of ​​British armed forces.
                Quote: Alexey RA
                An unarmed crowd was evacuated back to the island.

                Yes, and to hell with those pieces of iron. They were worth little.
                Quote: Alexey RA
                The Germans are standing on the other side of the Canal. Where is the guarantee that against this background in Britain there will not be a government crisis and peacekeepers will not come to power?

                No, the pacifiers left with Chamberlain. And there was no return for them.
                Quote: Alexey RA
                And by the way, where were the families of the officers of the Darlan forces?

                Do not transfer Soviet methods of "work" to France.
                1. +1
                  12 January 2019 09: 29
                  Quote: WW2
                  A drop in the sea of ​​British forces

                  Generally speaking, that was practically all that the British had in the Metropolis. And in other places (Africa, Singapore) they had even less, and it needed urgent strengthening
                  Quote: WW2
                  Do not transfer Soviet methods of "work" to France.

                  Kindly, and tell in all chilling details about the repression of the families of Wehrmacht officers
                  1. WW2
                    -2
                    12 January 2019 09: 33
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    Generally speaking, that was practically all that the British had in the Metropolis.

                    At that moment. That moment is over and the alignment of forces has changed.
                    Britain in 1940 was the world gendarme. Of course, she had a lot of worries in the world. But there were a lot of troops.
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    And in other places (Africa, Singapore) they had even less

                    Wow. The British Empire, the world gendarme, the most powerful empire in the world (at that time), but there are no troops.
                    Then you re-read yourself?
                    1. 0
                      12 January 2019 11: 26
                      Quote: WW2
                      At that moment. That moment is over and the alignment of forces has changed

                      Yeah. Literally, in just a couple of years. Moreover, it must be said that even in 1944 even the British troops in fact were not impressive in numbers
                      Quote: WW2
                      Of course, she had a lot of worries in the world. But there were a lot of troops.

                      Did not have. The fleet - yes, it was quite strong, but with the troops everything was completely bad.
                      Quote: WW2
                      Britain in 1940 was the world gendarme

                      In which of the alternative universes? :)))))))
                      Quote: WW2
                      Wow. The British Empire, the world gendarme, the most powerful empire in the world (at that time), but there are no troops.

                      Surprise! :))))))) Oddly enough, but this is exactly how things were in reality. Check out any monograph on the British Army at the outbreak of war
                      1. WW2
                        -2
                        12 January 2019 12: 10
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Moreover, it must be said that even in 1944, even the British troops themselves were not impressive in numbers

                        British troops fought in 1944 and were deployed around the world.
                        Australians, New Zealanders, Canadians, Indians - these are all British troops (troops of the British Commonwealth). And not only that small part that you have in mind.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        In which of the alternative universes? :)))))))

                        Learn the story. And it will open to you.
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Check out any monograph on the British Army at the outbreak of war

                        Once again, I repeat, you have to watch the troops of the British Empire. And not only the troops of the island of one particular island.
                      2. 0
                        13 January 2019 01: 56
                        British troops fought in 1944 and were deployed around the world.
                        Australians, New Zealanders, Canadians, Indians - these are all British troops (troops of the British Commonwealth). And not only that small part that you have in mind.

                        Then why was BIRMA occupied by the JAPANESE in 1941? In India (BRITISH CROWN DIAMOND), there was so much "cannon fodder"?
                        In November 1941, Burma was inspected by General Wavell, the commander of the Indian Defense Zone. He reported to London that "he is extremely concerned about the extent of the unreadiness of the Burmese defense." Churchill replied that the 18th Division (Cape Town), as well as 6 squadrons of bombers, would be transported to Burma. However, the promised reinforcements never arrived.
                        According to the Japanese plan for the capture of Burma, the 15th army (consisting of the 33rd and 55th divisions) after the occupation of Thailand was supposed to invade southern Burma, capture the British airfields in Tenasserim (thereby interrupting Singapore air traffic with India), and then move towards Moulmein and further to the Burmese capital of Yangon.
                        The strategic objectives of Japan were to capture suppliers of rice and oil, create a bridgehead between Southeast Asia and India, and eliminate the supply route for the Chinese army.

                        Only 2 Japanese DIVISIONS!
                        And where is the SUPER BRITISH ARMY ???
                        But it turns out that Churchill turned to the CHINA-KAISHI ... about the protection of the BIRMA ...
                        In late 1941 - early 1942, Japanese troops began to cross the border between Thailand and Burma. On January 20, the Japanese captured the city of Tavoy. There, the Japanese began to form the "Burma Independence Army" of the so-called "takins" (Burmese left nationalists). On March 8, the Japanese took the Yangon and launched an offensive to the north. Not having the strength to defend Burma, the British were forced to turn to Chiang Kai-shek for help. Chinese troops entered northern Burma and tried to detain the Japanese, but the Chinese were not very combat-ready, and as a result, the front collapsed. Some of the Chinese troops were able to retreat to Chinese territory, others were cut off, and were forced to break through the mountains and jungle into the territory of British India with the remnants of the British units. By the beginning of the rainy season, almost the entire territory of Burma was occupied by the Japanese.

                        Edren Baton - WORLD GENDARM, BUT NOT WORLD SOLDIER ....
                      3. WW2
                        -1
                        13 January 2019 02: 05
                        Quote: hohol95
                        Edren Baton - WORLD GENDARM, BUT NOT WORLD SOLDIER.

                        Yes, being a world soldier is not profitable. A gendarme is beneficial.
                        And they found a soldier on the side. For money. I already wrote about this before.
                      4. 0
                        13 January 2019 02: 13
                        And a lot of FOUND? FOR MONEY THAT? Without American help, the ISLAND would have been drowned in 1940!
                      5. WW2
                        -1
                        13 January 2019 02: 19
                        Quote: hohol95
                        Without American help, the ISLAND would have been drowned in 1940!

                        This is what a fright?
                        The British won the 1940 air "battle for Britain". But the loss of the "Battle of Britain" prompted Hitler to turn his bayonets to the east. Therefore, nothing serious threatened Britain.
                        But without the Americans, I would not be able to cope with the USSR. And this for the British was fraught with trouble and hardship. Therefore, they let the Americans into Europe. From where they have not gone to this day.
                      6. 0
                        13 January 2019 02: 25
                        No need to translate the loss in "Battle of Britain" on the EAST RAILS!
                        These rails were "oiled" and raids on London!
                        Let me ask, without the USA, where would Great Britain take medicines, food and weapons with strategic materials?
                        From the colonies? Laughter! German boats sank British "traders" well in 1940-1941, and without American "LIBERTY" and other "traders" ISLAND would not be able to provide itself with sufficient resources for itself!
                      7. WW2
                        -1
                        13 January 2019 02: 30
                        Quote: hohol95
                        No need to translate the loss in "Battle of Britain" on the EAST RAILS!

                        These are actually interconnected things. One was the result of the other.
                        Quote: hohol95
                        THE ISLAND "could not provide itself with enough resources for itself!

                        Could easily. But after the fall of the USSR and the German army’s occupation of the Astrakhan-Arkhangelsk line, the British would really have problems. Therefore, without the Americans, they could be able to cope with the Germans. But they would not do it. They did not need such a pyrrhic victory.
                      8. 0
                        13 January 2019 02: 31
                        Could easily.

                        Is there a BRITISH data?
                      9. WW2
                        0
                        13 January 2019 02: 33
                        Quote: hohol95
                        Is there a BRITISH data?

                        What do you need, sown area and productivity per hectare?
                      10. 0
                        13 January 2019 02: 37
                        To me data on metallurgical production and reserves of ores containing non-ferrous metals! Plus area OPIENE FIELDS! And data on the crops of rubber trees! And data on the number of oil fields in Britain!
                2. 0
                  13 January 2019 01: 38
                  Actually, there was a miserable British expeditionary force on the continents. A drop in the sea of ​​British armed forces.

                  Tell me, when did the British Army in the beginning and the middle of the 20th century be adequate to the army of the Second Reich, Third Reich, France before WWII and before WWII?
                  Not taking fleet and overseas armies into account ...
                  1. WW2
                    -1
                    13 January 2019 01: 56
                    Quote: hohol95
                    Not taking fleet and overseas armies into account ...

                    Why not take into account the fleet and overseas armies? Just them and must be taken into account.
                    And for other purposes, the British always had money to buy cannon fodder on the continent.
                    - in the time of Napoleon, they sponsored Russia. And that provided them with Europe on a silver platter.
                    - during the time of the 2nd Reich, they sponsored France and Russia. Russia jumped off, but they received a saucer from the French.
                    - during the Third Reich, they sponsored Poland and France. The Poles could not, although they really wanted to. And the French could, but remembering the sad experience of 1MB, they did not want to. Then the British already sponsored the USSR.
                    And so, somehow managed.
                    1. +1
                      13 January 2019 02: 09
                      Singapore surrendered to the Japanese the fleet in the form of the sunken "Prince of Wales" and "Repulse"?
                      Or ground units under the command of SIR ARTHUR ERNEST PERSIVAL?
                      Percival's studies were interrupted in 1919 when he volunteered to serve in the Arkhangelsk command of the British military mission during foreign intervention during the Civil War in Russia. Being the second in the vertical command of the 45th regiment of the Royal Fusiliers, in early August 1919 he earned the bar for his Order of Outstanding Merit when during an operation in the area
                      The Northern Dvina captured about 400 Red Army men.

                      The Japanese insisted that Percival personally come out with a white flag for negotiations. After the negotiations between Percival and Yamashita, on February 15, 1942, all the forces of the British Commonwealth in Singapore surrendered.

                      But SINGAPORE - NAVY BASE!
                      Like Sevastopol, Odessa, Tallinn, Liepaja, but he turned out to be not ready for defense against the LAND ENEMY FORCES!
                      Strange, there were no revolutions, no civil war in the 20th century, no collectivization, no "Chamberden" repression in Britain! And so LOST ...
                      Strange ... It just reminds the Dardanelles SLAUGHTER ...
                      1. WW2
                        -1
                        13 January 2019 02: 12
                        Quote: hohol95
                        And so LAZHANULULI ...
                        Strange ...

                        Nothing strange. The British Empire was dying. And getting ready to surrender the position of the Yankees. What happened during the 2MB.
                        Today, Britain is just a pale shadow of that British Empire. Yes, and she will soon grunt, either in 2, or in 3 parts.
                      2. 0
                        13 January 2019 02: 17
                        Then do not blame our commanders WITHOUT looking back at the command staff of France and the UK!
                        And then - here in Europe, France, Britain, Belgium, Holland, Norway ...
                        And Greece, that the British defended weakly?
                        The island of Crete could not be defended with a complete victory at sea (the German landing detachment was smashed to pieces), and the Goering paratroopers surrendered!
                      3. WW2
                        -1
                        13 January 2019 02: 21
                        Quote: hohol95
                        and the Goering paratroopers surrendered!

                        Dear, not everyone during WW2 treated the lives of their compatriots, as in the USSR. And even in Germany. From this and a different approach to hostilities.
                      4. The comment was deleted.
                      5. WW2
                        -1
                        13 January 2019 02: 32
                        Quote: hohol95
                        Churchill CANADES so proto to death and sent captivity?

                        Residents of the countries of the British Commonwealth, these are not British. And the attitude towards them was different.
                      6. 0
                        13 January 2019 02: 40
                        So you consider CANADIANS, AUSTRALIANS, NEW Zealanders and South African Sheep (WHITE) PEOPLE OF THE SECOND GRADE?
                      7. The comment was deleted.
                      8. The comment was deleted.
          2. 0
            10 January 2019 22: 51
            Or maybe Darlan was afraid of the transfer from Europe to Africa of a similar air transfer of Moroccans to Spain in 1936?
            What if Spain would enter the war ...
            And what was there in Darlan’s HEAD ...
          3. WW2
            -3
            11 January 2019 21: 11
            Quote: Alexey RA
            When it was not clear - would Britain resist?

            Do you even imagine the weight categories of Britain and Germany in 1940? This is an elephant and a pug. Yes, Pug could bite an elephant. But sooner or later, she (Germany) would have crushed it.
            It is simply not clear where such "misunderstandings" come from.
    2. +1
      11 January 2019 10: 22
      Quote: hohol95
      Dear author! If in the USSR Navy until 1939 everything was so sad with the command personnel, and in France there was complete order with the personnel (neither fleeing the country with the Civil War, nor repressions, excellent education and training to replace those retiring both in the Navy and in Army of the French Republic) - why then the PERFECT Navy of France did NOT help its state ANYTHING in 1940?

      Did the French fleet somehow prove to be in WWI? In addition to the failed Dardanelles operation, where he lost several armadillos on mines. So there were problems with combat experience.
      And with the understanding of what the new world order should be like, in the Third Republic things were difficult. No wonder the Vichy regime was led by the hero of WWI Marshal Peten. About the same grade, officers commanded the fleet.
    3. WW2
      -2
      11 January 2019 21: 18
      Quote: hohol95
      and in France there was complete order with the personnel (neither fleeing the country with the Civil War, nor repressions, excellent education and training to replace the retiring and the Navy and the Army of the French Republic) - why then the PERFECT Navy of France did nothing to help to the state in 1940?

      The French understood very well what role the Anglo-Saxons assigned to them in WW2. Namely, the one that was assigned to them in 1MB. This role was absolutely not suitable for them and they refused it. Having capitulated to the Germans in 1940, why did they get a huge (huge) profit after 1945.
  20. +7
    10 January 2019 13: 13
    Only the top ten “top” Soviet fighter pilots cost Germany about 1% of all the aircraft produced during the war. And almost all of these people flew, in most cases, on the "Aero Cobra", and not on Lagg-3, oddly enough.

    No. 1 Kozhedub I.N-flew La-5F, La-5FN, La-7
    # 2 Pokryshkin A. I. - MiG-3, Yak-1, "Airacobra"
    No. 3 Gulaev ND - I-16, Yak-1, "Airacobra"
    No. 4 Rechkalov G.A-I-153, I-16, "Airacobra"
    No. 5 Evstignee K.A. - La-5F, La-5FN
    No. 6 Vorozheykin A.V-I-16, Yak-7B, Yak-9, Yak-3
    No. 7 Glinka D.B. -MiG-3, "Airacobra", La-7
    No. 8 Popkov V.I. - La-5 FN
    No. 9 Koldunov A.I.- Yak-1, Yak-9, Yak-3, La-7
    No. 10 Skomorokhov N. M.-LaGG-3, La-5, La-5F, La-5FN
    Altogether, 4 out of 10 at the end of the war really flew on "Airacobras", 1 on Yakovlev's plane, the other 5 on Lavochkin's planes. For the most part, the first ten Soviet aces flew on the planes of the S.A. Lavochkin Design Bureau. If we expand the list to 30, then Lavochkin's planes become the undisputed leaders, Yakovlev's design bureau will come out on the second. The commander of the famous 5 GIAP Zaitsev V.A was never shot down, he himself shot down 34 enemy aircraft, and he fought not in the "Aircobra", but LaGG-3 and La-5 ...
    1. -1
      10 January 2019 14: 49
      At the end of the war there was a massive transfer to our equipment. It is necessary to look at what period who and how many Germans filled. Incidentally, I do not claim that ALL aces flew Cobras, because they looked at the statistics, albeit long ago.
      1. +3
        10 January 2019 16: 12
        KABEROV IGOR ALEXANDROVICH
        By August 20, 1941, when German aviation disabled most of the aircraft of the 5th fighter aviation regiment of the Baltic Fleet at the airport in Klopitsy, Kaberov managed to make almost 50 sorties on I-16, to win two group victories - Yu-88 and Me-109 . In one of the battles, his "donkey" was hit by a burst from a bomber, but the pilot managed to land the "cropped" donkey on his belly.
        Note that in the 5th IAP (later the 3rd Guards IAP) of the Baltic Fleet there was a peculiar system of offsets for the shot down: personal victories and victories in the given units were taken into account. Something similar took place in the Royal Air Force of Great Britain. Note that Kaberov was among the leaders of my glorious regiment in the number of victories. In total, there were 476 sorties, 92 air battles, 9 enemy aircraft, shot down personally, and 18 in the group, 15, 46 victories in the cast. units. In this indicator he was superior only to the Hero of the Soviet Union D.M. Tatarenko - 16, 99 in the given units and, most likely, the State Duma. Kostylev, whose exact number of victories is unknown and clearly more than 16.
        Kaberov won his first personal victory on Wednesday, October 10, 1941, shooting down the Yu-88 in the seventh (!) Sortie in a day. He managed to do this on a new machine LAGG-3 with tail number 13. The next day, paired with G. D. Kostylev (Kaberov then served in his unit), they shot down the Khsh-126, and in September his account was replenished with five enemy aircraft: Yu-88, Yu86, Yu-87, Me-109 and Xsh-126.
        Since May 1942, the regiment has been fighting in Hurricanes, rearmed with 2 ShVAK cannons. On the Haritosh with the inscription "For Leningrad!" on the left side he fought until October, shooting down the Me-109, Ju-88 and the old six-engine "Caproni", which, however, took up to 8 tons of bombs and was armed with 7 machine guns.
        In October, the regiment was re-equipped again. Kaberov again gets LaGG with tail number 88, on which he already flew at the beginning of the year. On this machine, he won the last official victories: 2 Me-110, Yu-88 and Me-109, and on February 9, 1943, he chalked up the seventh downed type - FV-190.
        In June 1943, new fighters - La-5 - entered the regiment - “Not planes are a dream,” Igor Kaberov wrote about them. On this machine, he carries out several sorties, shot down the Me-109, which, however, did not receive official confirmation.
        In August 1943, Hero of the Soviet Union I. Kaberov (Decree of July 27, 1943, Star No. 854) received an order to depart for the post of inspector of the Yeisk Aviation School. In the 3rd Guards IAP KBF Heroes were cared for - after Kaberov, after receiving a high rank, S. Lvov left the front, and later I. Tsapov.
        ... This little brave man will stay with us forever thanks to the book of N.K. Chukovsky "Baltic Sky". It was I. Kaberov who was the living prototype of Kabanka, visibly presented later in the film of the same name by M. Ulyanov,
        I. Kaberov completed his last sorties during the battles with Japan.
        After the war, he served in the Far East. He flew on jet engines. In 1952 he graduated from the Air Force Academy. He was the commander of the fighter aviation division. In I960, he was discharged with the rank of colonel.

        He worked as the head of the Novgorod airport, then the flying club.
        In the early 70s, he wrote a vivid book “In the Sight - the Swastika”, which has survived several editions.
        Hero of the Soviet Union I. Kaberov was awarded two orders of Lenin, two orders of the Red Banner, two orders of the Patriotic War of the 1st degree, the Order of the Red Star, and medals.
        Igor Aleksandrovich Kaberov died on October 2, 1995.

        On 10 on January 1944, the LaGG-3 five from the 790 IAP Lieutenant Colonel I.G. Korolev intercepted in the Tarkhan (Kerch Peninsula) area 12 dive bombers Ju.87, accompanied by a pair of Bf.109. In battle, the Germans lost three Ju.87 and both fighters. The operations in the Crimea also involved the 88, 159, 863 and 979 IAP, armed with LaGG-3.
        On January 1, 1945, the Air Force of the Black Sea Fleet included the 7th and 62nd IAP and the 2nd training regiment. None of them were fully equipped with LaGG-3, but in total there were 46 vehicles of this type.
        1. +2
          10 January 2019 17: 46
          Thank you!
          For those who want to understand the real realities of war, read Kaberov's "A swastika in sight". Brilliant fighter and talented writer.
          Blessed memory ...
          1. +2
            11 January 2019 00: 26
            Quote: basal
            For those who want to understand the real realities of war, read Kaberov's "The Swastika in sight".

            You can also read "Under Us-Berlin" by A.V. Vorozheikin. "I am a fighter" N.M. Skomorokhova ...
        2. 0
          11 January 2019 00: 15
          Quote: hohol95
          On 10 on January 1944, the LaGG-3 five from the 790 IAP Lieutenant Colonel I.G. Korolev intercepted in the Tarkhan (Kerch Peninsula) area 12 dive bombers Ju.87, accompanied by a pair of Bf.109. In battle, the Germans lost three Ju.87 and both fighters. The operations in the Crimea also involved the 88, 159, 863 and 979 IAP, armed with LaGG-3.

          9-IAP 11-th SHAD fought on Lagg-3 42-th and 43-th years, at the end of 1944 received Yak-9.
          1. 0
            11 January 2019 00: 22
            M.V. Orlov, N.V. Yakubovich
            "Fighter LaGG-3"
            A lot of LaGG-3 remained in the air defense regiments. For example, the entire 229th Iad flew at them. In the suburbs from mid-1943, LaGG-3 began to be replaced by La-5. In particular, in the 178th IAP by the end of November there was only one old fighter. In total, during the war, LaGG-3, which were part of the fighter aircraft air defense, destroyed 315 enemy aircraft.

            And JANUARY 10 is this not the BEGINNING OF THE YEAR?
            9th IAP 11th ShAD fought on Lugg-3 42nd and 43rd years, at the end of 1944 received the Yak-9.

            I always thought that the year ends with the month of DECEMBER!
            1. 0
              11 January 2019 07: 29
              Quote: hohol95
              I always thought that the year ends with the month of DECEMBER!

              I do not quite understand how the 10 of January and December of 1944 are related. Do you have infa that the 10.01.1944 in the 9 and the 11 th unit of the air force of the Black Sea Fleet were already Yak-9? And where can you tell me infa? I'm just collecting data from this shelf.
              1. 0
                13 January 2019 00: 55
                M.V. Orlov, N.V. Yakubovich
                "Fighter LaGG-3"
                I brought the information of these AUTHORS!
                You have a claim - address THEM ...
                And where can you tell me infa? I'm just collecting data from this shelf.

                Read the comments carefully!
                AT THE END OF WAR
                In all decreasing quantities, LaGG-3 were in service with the Air Force, Air Defense and Naval Aviation until the end of World War II. In particular, they took part in the liberation of Crimea. On January 10, 1944, the five LaGG-3s from the 790th IAP of Lieutenant Colonel I.G. Korolev intercepted 12 Ju.87 dive bombers in the Tarkhan region (Kerch Peninsula), accompanied by a pair of Bf.109. In battle, the Germans lost three Ju. 87 and both fighters. In operations in Crimea, the 88th, 159th, 863rd and 979th IAPs armed with LaGG-3 were also involved.
                On January 1, 1945, the Air Force of the Black Sea Fleet included the 7th and 62nd IAP and the 2nd training regiment. None of them were fully equipped with LaGG-3, but in total there were 46 vehicles of this type.
                A lot of LaGG-3 remained in the air defense regiments. For example, the entire 229th Iad flew at them. In the suburbs from mid-1943, LaGG-3 began to be replaced by La-5. In particular, in the 178th IAP by the end of November there was only one old fighter. In total, during the war, LaGG-3, which were part of the fighter aircraft air defense, destroyed 315 enemy aircraft.
                Had a chance to participate in these machines in the war against Japan. On August 9, 1945, the Pacific Fleet Air Force had 172 aircraft of this type — almost a third of all available fighters. Basically, their actions were reduced to covering the attack aircraft, as was the case, for example, on August 9 and 10, 1945. LaGG-3 from the 38th IAP in those days covered IL-2 of the 37th cap attacking the port of Yuuki. But there were cases when the pilots on LaGG-3 themselves launched bombing and assault attacks. For example, on the afternoon of August 11, they, under the guise of Yak-9 and La-7 fighters, raided the port of Esutora on southern Sakhalin.
                Shortly after the war ended, the reduction of the armed forces began. On March 22, 1946, the Council of Ministers decided to write off a large number of worn and outdated aircraft. These included 187 LaGG-3. The last fighters of this type, apparently, were decommissioned by early 1947.
                1. 0
                  15 January 2019 10: 42
                  I read it carefully. I did not find references in the quote about the 9 IAP of the Air Force of the Black Sea Fleet. request
        3. 0
          12 January 2019 22: 55
          And what kind of victories are these units?
      2. 0
        10 January 2019 22: 43
        Read the book "STO Stalin's FALCONS. In the battles for the Motherland"
        And you will find out how many Heroes of the Soviet Union in this book fought on foreign automotive technology!
        Hero of the Soviet Union Guard Senior Lieutenant M. Sukhanov
        In 1943 he graduated from the naval department of the naval aviation school.
        He fought as part of the 12th Guards Dive-Bomber Aviation Regiment of the 8th mine-torpedo aviation division of the Air Force KBF, commanded twice by the Hero of the Soviet Union major, and after the assignment of an extraordinary rank - Colonel V.I. Crayfish.
        Navigator of the guard link lieutenant M.A. Sukhanov accepted the crew of the Hero of the Soviet Union squadron commander of the 12th GBAP Special Operations Command Senior Lieutenant ND. Kolesnikov and arrow-radio operator I.F. Aleinikov.
        On July 16, 1944, as part of the regiment, the Pe-2 crew — Kolesnikov, Sukhanov, Aleinikov — participated in the sinking of the Niobe air defense cruiser (former Dutch Helderland).

        Twice Hero of the Soviet Union Guard Major Efremov V.S.
        The squadron commander of the 10th Guards Red Banner Kiev Bomber Aviation Regiment (270th Bomber Aviation Division, 8th Air Army) of the Guard Captain BC Efremov was introduced to the rank of Hero of the Soviet Union for “1943 combat sorties bombing completed by February 293 enemy forces and equipment ”(Decree of May 1, 1943). Captain V. S. Efremov was awarded the second Gold Star medal of the Guard on August 2, 1943 for his accomplishments 340 sorties on SB, Ar-2 and IL-4.

        Everything depended not on the TECHNOLOGY, but on the PEOPLE who were sitting in the cabs of THIS TECHNOLOGY!
      3. 0
        11 January 2019 00: 37
        Quote: timokhin-aa

        At the end of the war there was a massive transplant on our equipment. We must look at what period who and how many Germans filled.

        If for the initial period, then the undisputed leaders will be the pilots flying I-16 ...
  21. +6
    10 January 2019 14: 41
    Perhaps there is no more controversial topic in the latest military history of our country than the role of the USSR Navy in the Great Patriotic War and in the final results of the Second World War for our country as a whole.
    First. For a start, the author should dwell on the "Great Patriotic War", because the topic "the final results of the Second World War for the USSR" is a completely separate issue.
    Second. About "there is no more controversial topic." And who actually made this topic "controversial"?
    The transition from the Soviet period of historiography to the post-Soviet period made the entire history "contradictory", because the commercialization of history and its objective presentation are diametrically opposite things. And crowds of various "debunkers" and "anti-scammers" with the competence of the city policeman Semyon Vasilyevich Nebaba so dirtied the horizon that the history of the Russian Empire and the USSR, in fact, is not visible. Some "contradictions".
    So the author seems to have set himself a noble goal - to objectively assess the role of the fleet in the Great Patriotic War. But he immediately slid down the path of a "refutation", which does not help to restore the historical status quo.
    Why, instead of trying to justify something, do not say that the fleet made the contribution to the results of the Great Patriotic War that it could make due to its technical equipment and organization, and to the management of this very fleet by the military-political leadership of the USSR.
    These factors led to the fact that the main contribution of the fleet to the Victory is on land.

    As of June 22, 1941, Navy personnel totaled 354. And from the first day of the war, GKO began to use the personnel of the fleet as a strategic reserve. In 000, about 1941 thousand sailors left on land fronts. In 147, their number increased already to 1942 thousand people. At the same time, 189 thousand people were allocated by the Pacific, about 102 thousand - by the Baltic, 35 thousand - by the Northern Fleets and about 27 thousand - by the Central Departments of the Navy and the All-Russian Higher Military School.
    Therefore, the story about the role of the fleet should begin with the battle for Moscow, where "the naval rifle brigades ... covered themselves with military glory and contributed significantly to the overall success of the Soviet troops."
    And when, in the vast steppe open spaces between the Volga and Don rivers, a battle was unbelievable in its scope, number of troops and military equipment and tension, the course of which was watched by the whole world, more than 100 sailors took part in this battle.
    By the way, the famous Stalingrad sniper Vasily Zaitsev, who was the first to take the oath: "There is no land for us beyond the Volga!", Was a seaman of the Pacific Fleet, a foreman of the XNUMXst class.
    А
    1. +1
      10 January 2019 15: 27
      Viktor Nikolaevich, I probably did not read a more controversial comment from you.
    2. +1
      10 January 2019 15: 42
      You quite convincingly supported the opinion mentioned in the article (which the author himself does not share):
      "The fleet is the most expensive way to produce infantry."
    3. +2
      11 January 2019 00: 29
      Let me ask - Kriegsmarine was the supplier of the INFANTRY in the crisis moments of 1944-1945?
      Or were the sailors Raeder and Dönitz only engaged in sinking enemy ships and scrubbing the decks of their ships to the shine of "boatswain's eyes"?
      1. +1
        11 January 2019 01: 10
        It was mainly in 1945. Only the scale is incomparable.
    4. WW2
      -4
      11 January 2019 21: 20
      Quote: Decimam
      In 1941, about 147 thousand sailors left on land fronts. In 1942, their number increased already to 189 thousand people. At the same time, 102 thousand people were allocated by the Pacific, about 35 thousand - by the Baltic, 27 thousand - by the Northern Fleets and about 10 thousand - by the Central Departments of the Navy and the All-Russian Higher Military School.

      These were all untrained fighters. There was little benefit from them, without prior training. In terms of their combat value, they were actually militias.
      1. +2
        11 January 2019 21: 54
        Comment showing complete ignorance of the subject. The most physically healthy and educated conscripts were called up for the fleet. Since 1939, the service life in the Navy is 5 years. Due to the conditions of service, in terms of moral maturity, cohesion, level of collective cohesion, discipline, moral and psychological climate, naval crews were head and shoulders superior to everyone else.
        Yes, they did not learn the specifics of infantry fighting, they studied already in the trenches, through blood and sweat. But in 1941 - 1942 almost all the marching supporters in their training was at a near-zero level, and nothing about the militias recruited mainly from the non-conscript contingent.
        1. WW2
          -5
          11 January 2019 21: 58
          Quote: Decimam
          Comment showing complete ignorance of the subject.

          Show us "knowledge".
          Quote: Decimam
          The most physically healthy and educated conscripts were called up for the fleet. Since 1939, the service life in the Navy is 5 years. Due to the conditions of service, in terms of moral maturity, cohesion, level of collective cohesion, discipline, moral and psychological climate, naval crews were head and shoulders superior to everyone else.

          As I understand it, what is "training in a military specialty" and how the naval "military specialty" differs from the land one, you do not know.
          I will explain to you. This is if the plasterer is forced to lay electrics. The consequences may be different.
          Quote: Decimam
          Yes, they did not learn the specifics of infantry fighting, they studied already in the trenches, through blood and sweat.

          Just like untrained militias. What I wrote above.
          Quote: Decimam
          and we can’t talk about the militias recruited mainly from the non-conscript contingent.

          The draft contingent in the USSR was not significantly different from the non-draft.
          1. +2
            11 January 2019 22: 09
            You have an aplomb of such size that you don’t see anything because of it. Nobody said that the sailors who came ashore were full-fledged infantry. It was said that in the critical years 1941-1942 it was the best of the available. Therefore, you are breaking through the open door.
            We will write off your mentor tone regarding an unfamiliar interlocutor for the lack of education.
            Draw your aplomb on paper, then twist it thinly. Further, I hope you understand what to do?
            All the best.
            1. WW2
              -5
              11 January 2019 22: 11
              Quote: Decimam
              Nobody said that the sailors who came ashore were full-fledged infantry. It was said that in the critical years 1941-1942 it was the best of the available.

              Excuse understood. It was possible to move off the topic not so verbose.
  22. +2
    10 January 2019 16: 45
    The actions of the Navy against the coast had a significant impact on the course of hostilities and the outcome of the war as a whole.

    1. The fleet took the most active and decisive part in the successful defense of Leningrad. This is the first center of stability on the Eastern Front where the blitzkrieg beat stopped and turned into a position war. Not only the artillery of the fleet, not only the evacuation from Tallinn and Hanko, but also the supply through Lake Ladoga in 1942 were crucial for the outcome of the war as a whole.
    2. The successful defense of Stalingrad and the stabilization of the front in the southern direction did not beat the same without the Volga Flotilla.
    3. The departure of Soviet submarines to the Baltic in October 1944 led to the cessation of delivery from Sweden to Germany - a strategic result in a war at sea.
    The Soviet fleet achieved all these results with minimal cost in comparison with enemies and allies.
    1. +3
      10 January 2019 18: 40
      Quote: Kostadinov
      Not only fleet artillery, not only evacuation from Tallinn and Hanko, but also supplies through Lake Ladoga in 1942 were crucial for the outcome of the war as a whole.

      Supply through Ladoga is a merit not only of the Navy, but also of the Leningrad ship industry.
      In fact, in 1942 the transport fleet on Lake Ladoga was re-created - since the pre-war ships and barges of the river fleet were mainly designed only for crossing the Ladoga channels, and not along Lake Ladoga itself with its winds and storms (hence the tragedy of the fall of 1941 with sunken barges). And the few sea barges and tugs thrown to Ladoga had too much draft.
      Ports on the Leningrad coast were also re-created - piers, cranes, railway tracks, warehouses and cisterns, deep harbors without shallow-water "bars" at the exit (through these "bars" in 1941 it was necessary to push loaded barges with the strikes of tugs "from a run") ...
      1. WW2
        -2
        11 January 2019 21: 23
        Quote: Alexey RA
        In fact, in 1942 the transport fleet on Lake Ladoga was re-created - since the pre-war ships and barges of the river fleet were mainly designed only for crossing the Ladoga channels, and not along Lake Ladoga itself with its winds and storms (hence the tragedy of the fall of 1941 with sunken barges).

        Well, the province went to write.
        What about fishing seiners?
        Do you even imagine Ladoga without a fleet that could walk on it?
        There were ships like dirt.
        But most of them were taken through the Belomor canal, "so that the enemy would not get it." In back to throw it did not work, the Finns had already cut off the waterway. So I had to get out.
  23. +1
    10 January 2019 19: 07
    Even commenting on this nonsense is not worth it, the author has a mess in his head.
  24. +2
    10 January 2019 19: 28
    Quote: timokhin-aa
    The basic shooter - we have a store, amers semi-automatic.
    - a case of so-called lies.
    Quote: timokhin-aa
    And so wherever you throw.
    - wherever you throw and you lied? Why don’t you love yourself so much?
    1. -2
      11 January 2019 23: 19
      Compare Garand and three-line?
      1. +2
        12 January 2019 02: 37
        Compare Garand and three-line?
        It is necessary to compare the three-ruler and the M1903 Springfield, which was armed with most of the army at the time the US entered the war and which was released until February 1944, and was used on the front line until the end of the war.
        1. WW2
          -1
          12 January 2019 09: 35
          Quote: Decimam
          It is necessary to compare the three-ruler and the M1903 Springfield, which was armed with most of the army at the time the US entered the war

          If at the time of entry, then SVT and Springfield. And if at the time of "performance", then the three-line and Garand.
  25. -1
    10 January 2019 19: 40
    The Russian fleet has never fought a serious enemy. Turks do not count. The first serious adversary is Japan. Tsushima showed that in Russia there are ships that they cannot control. Both wars with Germany have confirmed this. And it hung over our fleet for a long time.
    1. WW2
      -1
      11 January 2019 21: 27
      Quote: kimlykvp
      The first serious adversary is Japan.

      The Japanese were not even serious, but half-serious opponents. And those Rosflotu hardened.
      Quote: kimlykvp
      Tsushima showed that in Russia there are ships that they cannot control.

      And who do not know how to use for their intended purpose.
    2. -1
      11 January 2019 23: 21
      1. Why Turks do not count?
      2. Sweden, also does not count?
      3. Yapov had numerical superiority in all battles, except one. What could be expected in such conditions? And how did the army against the Japanese, is it good?
      1. WW2
        0
        12 January 2019 09: 42
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        1. Why Turks do not count?

        Because mentally in those days it was nomadic herders.
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        2. Sweden, also does not count?

        Also. Land country. And if anything, do not talk about the Viking sea robbers. It was a long time ago.
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        3. The Yapi had a numerical superiority in all but one battle.

        They had superiority in all battles. Moreover, the naval battle, not land. They don’t count in things.
        However, in the Yellow Sea, their superiority was insignificant. And the 1st TOE could leave them. But the shell tore Witgeft, and upon learning of this gentlemen, the officers scattered on their pepelats in different directions, like cockroaches. After that, the 1st TOE, without losing a single ship, ceased to exist as a combat unit.
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        And how did the army come out against the Japanese, is it good?

        Exactly. Too much attention is paid to the fleet. Which, in general, did not solve anything. But the actions of the army are forgotten. And there were enough of their disasters.
  26. -1
    10 January 2019 19: 59
    4. Army commanders cannot effectively command the fleet. It's impossible. Operations at sea are too different from land operations.


    Very topical and at the present time, only in relation to the videoconferencing.
    1. +3
      11 January 2019 23: 23
      Not only for videoconferencing. Surovikin is one thing, but the fact that the fleets under the districts are now, about the fact that the General Staff of the Navy does not have either operational or mobilization management, remember? About the fact that even maritime military shipments from the Navy were withdrawn, like the GUGI?

      So not only, and not even so much VKS. The army took all.
  27. +2
    10 January 2019 20: 22
    Although, as a naval reserve officer, he would have to defend the Grand Victories of the USSR Navy in the Patriotic War ... But alas, I really appreciate the actions of the Soviet sailors. Yes, the heroism of sailors and officers, naval tactical landings on unsuitable ships. But how to assess the losses of several of the best cruisers and destroyers of the Black Sea Fleet. Moreover, on the Black Sea they were opposed by rather medium-sized enemy BNCs, such as destroyers, BDB, "snellbots", etc. True, the Luftwaffe (not the naval, but the aviation of the German Air Force) replaced the Krigmarine for the absence of NK in the area of ​​the b / d. And after rereading the military memoirs of the Germans and Americans about the real "sea battles" in the Atlantic and on the Pacific, the objective achievements of the Soviet Navy are very modest.
    1. +1
      10 January 2019 23: 47
      Have the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans been blocked by anti-submarine nets and minefields?
      Or did Japanese ships not come to ports with unexploded American torpedoes sticking out on their sides?
      Maybe the British were preparing for the defense of Singapore by land?
      Or are those Canadians and Britons right who blame the failure of the “raid on Dieppe” not by Churchill, but by “bloody” Stalin?
    2. 0
      11 January 2019 11: 43
      Quote: xomaNN
      how was to estimate the loss of several top cruisers and destroyers Black Sea Fleet

      What cruisers are you talking about ????
      1. +1
        11 January 2019 19: 38
        Losses in the Black Sea Fleet war: KR "Chervona Ukrainets.", Leaders (in fact, light cruisers) "Moscow", "Kharkov", "Tashkent". For the world shipbuilding "Chervonka", I agree, not great. But for the Black Sea Fleet it is quite. And the leaders were on the level. On the embankment of Sevastopol "there is a plaque of the ships of the squadron, including the dead.
      2. 0
        11 January 2019 19: 39
        Here is this board on the Seva embankment.
    3. +1
      11 January 2019 23: 25
      naval tactical assault forces on unsuitable vessels.


      Yes, kakby not only tactical.

      True, the Luftwaffe (not sea, but aircraft and the German Air Force) was replaced by the lack of NK in the b / d area of ​​the krigmarin


      Yes, what a trifle these Luftwaffe.

      And after rereading the military memoirs of the Germans and Americans about the real "sea battles" in the Atlantic and on the Pacific, the objective achievements of the Soviet Navy are very modest.


      Well, the Navy itself was more modest, at times, including in comparison with Kriegsmarine. But the tasks he had disproportionate numbers.
  28. 0
    10 January 2019 20: 43
    The discussion showed that no one possesses the completeness of the information, the available information is contradictory and "embellished" by both sides of the confrontation. The discussion revealed this. The conclusions of each are nothing more than a personal opinion, more or less substantiated. Everyone's free will to agree or disagree. The opinions expressed are supported by arguments, links or the documents themselves. I'm happy!
  29. +2
    10 January 2019 22: 26
    The author tried to squeeze too much material into one article. As a result, he left the impression of something superficial and unconvincing, more likely an outline than analysis. Perhaps it was worth publishing a series of articles, but each part should be thought out and reasoned. And nothing good can be said with all the desire.

    The resentment at the lack of succession with the RI fleet was especially ridiculed. And what did you plan to adopt? Epic plums of the time of the REV and PMV? Especially of course about the succession of air defense .. :)
    1. -1
      11 January 2019 23: 26
      For example, some kind of organizational experience.
  30. +2
    10 January 2019 22: 55
    Dear author - rummage through the historical documents and "figure out" for us an "LITTLE" article about the reasons for NOT landing by the Black Sea Fleet of the Republic of Ingushetia in Zonguldak in 1916!
  31. -3
    11 January 2019 01: 54
    Quote: Operator
    The USSR / Russia is geographically surrounded (Baltic, Black) or freezing (White, Okhotsk) seas, in which any fleet is a whipping boy from the enemy armed with aircraft, and now also anti-ship missiles.

    In these conditions, keeping the ocean fleet (battleships, aircraft carriers, BOD, ROK, etc.) is the height of insanity, which was demonstrated in WWII. However, figures such as Kuznetsov and Gorshkov, bit the bit, riveted battleships and aircraft-carrying ships like pies, leading the Russian Navy to a logical ending - a broken trough.


    totally agree
    nefig us rf have big ships a waste of money
    1. 0
      11 January 2019 23: 27
      In general, the fleet is cut into needles. Then roll over the water, listen to the chanson, fear us Americans.
  32. +1
    11 January 2019 10: 47
    Supply through Ladoga is a merit not only of the Navy, but also of the Leningrad ship industry.

    Always and in all countries the fleet is a merit and a shipbuilding industry (if trophy ships are not considered). The fleet orders - the ship industry, more or less well, makes ships, and finally the fleet uses these ships, more or less well. The fleet and the shipbuilding industry cannot be divided by a wall.
  33. 0
    11 January 2019 11: 17
    Quote: Tarkhan
    In his Ju-87, Rudel sank 70 landing boats. Sank the leader of the destroyers Minsk. The cruiser Lyuttsev-Petropavlovsk was heavily damaged. And he also bombed, before sinking, the battleship "Marat".

    Rudel UTB Baron Mungausen of the Second World War. The cruiser wasn’t built and German artillery claims to be drowned. Marat and Minsk - this is the whole list of the scuttled (then lifted) large ships in Leningrad from German aviation and artillery taken together for the entire period of the war. If Rudel himself did everything, then the rest of the Luftwaffe pilots only burned fuel and threw bombs anywhere.
  34. 0
    11 January 2019 11: 50
    Quote: xomaNN
    But how to assess the losses of several of the best cruisers and destroyers of the Black Sea Fleet. Moreover, on the Black Sea they were opposed by rather medium-sized enemy BNCs, such as destroyers, BDB, "snellbots", etc. True, the Luftwaffe (not the naval, but the aviation of the German Air Force) replaced the Krigmarine for the absence of NK in the area of ​​the b / d. And after rereading the military memoirs of the Germans and Americans about the real "sea battles" in the Atlantic and the Pacific, the objective achievements of the Soviet Navy are very modest.

    1. I am aware of the drowning from German aircraft of only one Soviet cruiser on the Black Sea - Chervona Ukraine. The best cruiser of the Black Sea Fleet, he does not fit. How can one estimate the loss of 6 large armored ships (battleship and 5 cruisers) of only one old cruiser, in the conditions of two years, the Luftwaffe’s superiority in the air over the Black Sea? The sinking of the Soviet destroyer of the Black Sea Fleet from German surface ships and submarines is also not known to me.
    2. With all my respect and admiration for the US fleet, than their naval battles in the Pacific Ocean brought more victory over the Axis countries in WWII than the participation of the Soviet fleet in the defense of Leningrad? And what resources did the United States spend on its fleet in the Pacific compared with the costs of the Soviet fleet? Only for its fleet, the United States spent much more money than the USSR for all its weapons. If the USSR used its resources so ineffectively, then the war was beaten bi lost back in 1941.
  35. +1
    11 January 2019 11: 53
    read the article. I did not see the important role of the fleet. some small things. Sevastopol, for example, was held not because of strategic importance for the land theater, etc., but as the base of the fleet and for its sake. the rest of the fighting does not convince at all.
    1. 0
      11 January 2019 23: 29
      How is the fleet base? And was he after the start of the fighting for the Crimea, then?
  36. +1
    11 January 2019 13: 48
    and who, on June 21, 1941, could determine that the German army would reach Moscow, the Volga, and Novorossiysk? How could you prepare for this?

    And who could have expected that the port of Constanta would not be protected by a minefield and submarines?
    Who could expect mines to be installed in the Gulf of Finland and on the approach to the bases of the Baltic Fleet?

    Who could have expected the Germans and Finns to preempt? They will begin to establish a mine fence on which the cruiser Maxim Gorky and the destroyer Angry will be blown up?
    On the afternoon of June 22, the Deputy People's Commissar of the Navy, IS Isakov, sent a telegram to the Commander of the Baltic Fleet with an order to "lay mines around the clock, use destroyers and leaders." On the evening of the same day, the order was repeated.

    ... Germans and Finns were ahead of the Soviet fleet. Starting from June 12, 1941, German ships intended for operations in the Gulf of Finland began to relocate to the waters of their ally and completed it by June 18. In the skerries, Abo had a group of “Nord” mine loaders consisting of three loaders, flotillas of torpedo boats and boat minesweepers. In the skerries west of Porkkala-Udd, in a well-camouflaged parking lot, there was a group of “Cobra” consisting of three traps, flotillas of torpedo boats and boat minesweepers.

    Mines were given the order for final preparation for hostilities on June 19, and on the 21st a conditional signal came for a mine-clearance operation. The laying of mines began at 23.30 on June 21. The Nord mine group, guarded by six boat minesweepers and four torpedo boats, set up barriers between Bengsher Island and Cape Tahkuna in several stages.

    The Cobra mine group, guarded by five boat minesweepers and six torpedo boats, put up barriers north of Cape Pakrinem.

    Finnish submarines also set up minefields in the Gulf of Finland on the night of June 21-22.

    Already at dawn on June 22, German aircraft dropped 16 bottom mines south of the Tolbukhin lighthouse, southeast of Kronstadt and between Kotlin and Leningrad. Further, the mine production continued nightly.

    During the first three days of the war, the enemy created a mine threat at the exits from the bases and on the main naval communications of the Baltic Fleet, using a total of 1060 anchor drums and about 160 bottom contactless mines. Subsequently, the enemy strengthened the barriers, especially north of Cape Yuminda.
    ... The T-216 sentinel minesweeper, at dawn on June 22, discovered a minefield north of Hiium Island, which he reported to the fleet headquarters. But the report was not taken into account ...

    1941 in the Baltic: feat and tragedy
    Chernyshev Alexander



    As a result, the attacks that the Germans carried out against the Soviet naval bases that day ended in nothing.

    So then the command of the drill over the mines ran into - reconnaissance zero, the chaos of control - even open mine mines were not taken into account in the preparation of operational missions - which is if not a mess in the fleet.
    This is a fiasco of command ...
    1. +1
      11 January 2019 15: 34
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      And who could have expected that the port of Constanta would not be protected by a minefield and submarines?

      In fact, the presence of the MH in front of Constance was expected. That is why the LD went with paravanes.
      The miscalculation was different - there was no data on coastal defense. And when the LD came under fire from a 280-mm battery, they began maneuvering in the minefield at speeds higher than the maximum allowable for paravanes. The end is a bit predictable.... ©
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      So then the command of the drill over the mines ran into - reconnaissance zero, the chaos of control - even open mine mines were not taken into account in the preparation of operational missions - which is if not a mess in the fleet.

      But in the Baltic there really was a mess. However, exactly the same mess was at the beginning of the First World War in RN:
      On August 4, the Germans, even before the expiration of the British ultimatum of Germany, sent the Kenigin Louise auxiliary mine layer to the sea to place mines off the east coast of England. On August 5, at about noon, he was accidentally intercepted by the British destroyers Lance and Landrail, accompanied by the light cruiser Emfion. The former passenger ship, armed with small-caliber guns, of course, could not provide serious resistance to the latest warships and was quickly sunk. The British saved the command of the stratum, after which they continued the planned campaign to the shores of Denmark. On the way back, on August 6, at about 6.00:2, British ships, showing amazing carelessness, flew into a minefield, which was set before their eyes. The Emphion was blown up by 149 mines and sank. At the same time, 18 British and XNUMX German prisoners were killed.
    2. 0
      11 January 2019 23: 30
      About the command in the article is written, including the Baltic.
  37. 0
    11 January 2019 17: 14
    Quote: DimerVladimer
    But then the command of the drill fell on the mines — intelligence zero, control chaos — even open mine mines were not taken into account when drawing up operational missions — which is if not a mess in the fleet.
    This is a fiasco of command ...

    All the same, they didn’t trample on the Swedish minefield, which they had made at their request, like the minstags of Kriegsmarine 1941, didn’t go on their mine field in the third year of the war as the Kriegsmarine destroyers in December 1944. All fleets had problems with mines. Everything is relative.
    1. +1
      11 January 2019 18: 56
      Quote: Kostadinov
      All the same, they didn’t trample on the Swedish minefield at their request, like the minstags of Kriegsmarine 1941, they didn’t even float on their mine field in the third year of the war as destroyers of Kriegsmarine in December 1944.

      August 18, 1944. Narva Bay.
      4 destroyers of the 6th MM flotilla (T-22, T-23, T-30 and T-32) on the evening of August 17 were taken to Helsinki from the Kondor mine transport using 31 UMB anti-submarine mine and 23 EMR mine defenders and left for staging a new MZ in parallel with the previously exhibited "Seeigel IXb".
      And then a stormy unforgettable night began. First, the T-30 was blown up. In a couple of minutes - T-32. Then the T-30 found another mine - and sank. The T-22 tried to tow the T-32 - and it exploded itself. Then the T-22 found two more mines - and sank. The T-23 commander, having received a report on the discovery of Soviet TCAs, took the EM to the base. The T-32 crew left by the crew in the morning found another mine - and sank.
      Ours lifted 108 prisoners from the water, including the commander of the 6th Flotilla and the commander of the T-22, Captain Lieutenant Waldenburger.
      The main reason may be considered to be an explosion on the mines of the Seeigel IXX fence, established by German landing barges. The latter had extremely primitive navigation equipment, so significant inaccuracies were made in the arrangement of the fields. By the way, the flotilla commander pointed out this circumstance even before reaching the fateful stage, but then they did not heed his opinion. It is possible that the commander of a detachment of barges deliberately staged several cable ones to the west than planned, because not being sure of his location he was afraid to be in previous productions, that is, in the role in which the 6th flotilla was due to his fault.
      © M. Morozov
      1. 0
        14 January 2019 15: 18
        Quote: Alexey RA

        The main reason may be considered to be an explosion on the mines of the Seeigel IXX fence, established by German landing barges. The latter had extremely primitive navigation equipment, so significant inaccuracies were made in the arrangement of the fields. By the way, the flotilla commander pointed out this circumstance even before reaching the fateful stage, but then they did not heed his opinion. It is possible that the commander of a detachment of barges deliberately staged several cable ones to the west than planned, because not being sure of his location he was afraid to be in previous productions, that is, in the role in which the 6th flotilla was due to his fault.
        © M. Morozov


        In the absence of visual landmarks (and mine operations are carried out mainly in the dark, the sky is not always visible - (astro-orientation is not the most accurate method for determining coordinates) it will definitely be determined to be problematic.
        Field setting error + complexity of accurate drift / drift accounting - i.e. determining their coordinates since the last landmark.
        I believe that it is not realistic to "catch" an error in several cables without visual cues at that time.
        Already radionavigation aids help in determining the coordinates, but even on day D the radionavigation system was installed only on a few guiding ships, and they rehearsed with target lights so that the landing forces could line up according to the landing plan.
        1. +2
          14 January 2019 15: 49
          Quote: DimerVladimer
          In the absence of visual landmarks (and mine operations are carried out mainly in the dark, the sky is not always visible - (astro-orientation is not the most accurate method for determining coordinates) it will definitely be determined to be problematic.

          The fact of the matter is that MM attached quite accurately - according to the working beacons.
          Radars were not used, but for the navigators to be able to determine, the lighthouses on Bolshoi Tyuters island and in the town of Valaste on the southern shore of the Gulf of Narva had to flash every 20 minutes.

          ... during the interrogation, it turned out that all the documents for the production, including the route of movement and the tracing paper of the barrier itself, were prepared at the headquarters of the 9th division, and during the course of the operation, Copenhagen blindly adhered to them. Laying and numbering were carried out by the navigator of the flagship T-30, guided by the coastal manipulation points, and the Germans did not see any buoys, even if someone moved them.

          So the laying of destroyers was correct, but the mines of the previous obstacle were not there.
          1. 0
            14 January 2019 15: 59
            Quote: Alexey RA
            So the laying of destroyers was correct, but the mines of the previous obstacle were not there.


            Another thing.
            It remains only to declare thanks to the commander of the connection of self-propelled barges :)
            Interesting fact - thanks.
            1. +2
              14 January 2019 16: 10
              Quote: DimerVladimer
              Another thing.
              It remains only to declare thanks to the commander of the connection of self-propelled barges :)

              Well, yes ... for the biggest losses of the Kriegsmarine shipboard during one operation in the RKVMF responsibility zone. smile
  38. WW2
    -3
    11 January 2019 19: 27
    What role did the Navy play in World War II?

    The role of the boy to beat.
    Especially the Black Sea and often the Baltic.
    The surface fleet, this is not for Russia. With the whim of Peter it is necessary to end. The submarine nuclear component and the mosquito surface fleet serving it are the optimal configuration for Russia.
    In addition, the "developers of the fleet" must somehow understand once that Russia (and the USSR before it) is a poor state with a poor population. And the legs must be stretched over the clothes.
    1. 0
      11 January 2019 23: 32
      The submarine nuclear component and the mosquito surface fleet serving it is the optimal configuration for Russia.


      This is a broken configuration. Unrealizable.
      1. WW2
        +1
        11 January 2019 23: 39
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        This is a broken configuration. Unrealizable.

        Very working and marketable.
        See the German fleet from the time of 2MB. Only Russia needs to be much more modest than Germany. In terms of the number of p / boats. The reason is still the same, relative poverty.
        1. +1
          14 January 2019 16: 08
          Quote: WW2
          Very working and marketable.
          See the German fleet from the time of 2MB.

          We look. Already in 1943 it became difficult for German submarines to even leave the base. And in 1944 they began to be drowned directly in the bases.
  39. -1
    12 January 2019 13: 30
    Quote: timokhin-aa
    Compare Garand and three-line?

    and we have a basic three-ruler?
    Can we compare the guarantee and the light?
    Although it is necessary to compare garand and avs-36
  40. -1
    12 January 2019 14: 39
    Quote: WW2
    Quote: Decimam
    It is necessary to compare the three-ruler and the M1903 Springfield, which was armed with most of the army at the time the US entered the war

    If at the time of entry, then SVT and Springfield. And if at the time of "performance", then the three-line and Garand.

    At the time of the performance, PPS / PPS and M1 carbine, if not SCS and M1 carbine.
  41. +1
    14 January 2019 17: 42
    Conclusions, 1. the concept of a large surface fleet was outdated even before 1941, surface ships stood in bases throughout the war, and the great marshal people's hero Zhukov waved off Kuznetsov with his crazy ideas of battleships and aircraft carriers.
    2 Submarines exerted effective pressure on the enemy; it was a pity the USSR had few of them.
    3 The Baltic Sea has geographic features that make the Russian Baltic Fleet meaningless from the word at all, except for mine defense there is nothing needed.
    4 Russia, in addition to the very needed submarines, minesweepers, and mine loaders, river and coastal ships came in handy, Russia came in handy Karakurt and Buyany M, and on the oceans you can have very few frigates.
    1. +1
      13 August 2020 21: 50
      Quote: vladimir1155
      sorry they were few in the USSR.


      There were a lot of boats, too much. But there was no adequate coastal fleet, and to this I include multipurpose ships of the 3rd rank such as Bo-2 or MBK pr.161, patrol, artillery and seagoing torpedo boats, raid minesweepers and minesweepers. The situation was slightly corrected by the fact that the naval guard for mobilization joined the Navy. It possessed 80 percent of the MO built.
  42. +1
    15 January 2019 11: 22
    Quote: Alexey RA
    Well, yes ... for the biggest losses of the Kriegsmarine shipboard during one operation in the RKVMF responsibility zone

    All the same, more Kriegsmarine ships (630) were lost in Operation Nile on December 12, 1944, when destroyers Z-35 and Z-36 sank on their mines in the Gulf of Finland at the Nashorn obstacle. This obstacle was set up by minesags and not by barges.
  43. +1
    20 January 2019 00: 17
    1 question to the author of the article: how many fighting !!!! enemy ships destroyed the Navy of the USSR ???
  44. 0
    21 March 2019 16: 07
    As Stalin said: "I have no Hindenburgs" - this is about the failure of the Crimean Front in May 1942. And he did not have the Ushakovs and Nakhimovs ... "Ideyny" by the name of Oktyabrsky (Ivanov - in real life) was a mediocrity. The article mentions the evacuation of Odessa as a victory, but in passing - the failure of the evacuation from Sevastopol. By the way, for such "leadership" of the Black Sea Fleet, its commander (Oktyabrsky) received a blow in the face after the war right on the stage of the Sevastopol Department of Defense Forces under thunderous applause from the audience. And the Eltingen operation is generally a shame! 1943, aviation (this Oktyabrsky was "otmazed" by the absence of aircraft cover for the ships, failing the evacuation of Sevastopol, but jumping out of the city by plane) got out from the Kuban, and the German "fleet" consisting of BDB and schnelbots "reigns" at sea !!! Blocking the delivery of aid to the landing party. And where are all the ships of the Black Sea Fleet (1 destroyer would be enough to disperse this entire "fleet") ??? Are they standing with worn-out mechanisms and shot artillery barrels ??? Three destroyers sunk in 1943 (more precisely, the leader of the +2 destroyers) went on a military campaign! Or was this the last swept on the bottom of the barrel ??? So, yes, the sailors HEROICALLY fought both on the ships and in the marines, but the "naval commanders-komflot" (except for Golovko) failed everything they could ...
  45. 0
    15 January 2020 23: 15
    About the Baltic Fleet. The author, it seems to me, missed a rather important episode of his military activity - the contraband struggle during the defense of Leningrad. Well, participation in artillery preparations, of course. The Red Army did not have guns of such range as the 17-, 28-, and 36-cm guns of the Germans. If it were not for the naval and railway guns of the fleet, the German heavy artillery would have shot Leningrad without the slightest risk, as at the training ground, and most likely our peace-loving friends of the Finns would have joined them from that shore.
  46. 0
    3 August 2021 11: 06
    the author is certainly a fine fellow, but demonstrates such a lack of naivety ..
    1. look at the state of the fleet - all were shot at 37m. Dear author, this is an argument for them as a minus and not a plus
    2. Who could have thought in June 41st? what could be done ?? cluck tah tah ????
    Well, hell knows, the author. for example, listen to intelligence. for example, build echeloned defense. for example, do not concentrate forces so that they are swept away by the first wave.
    3.ah science did not foresee
    those.:
    3.1. science is crappy in the USSR - well, ok, although again this is only a minus
    3.2 science in general guessed a lot - rocket artillery was invented in Russia in 1916. but it was successfully shot.

    went to the publication in search of the great victories of the Soviet fleet - certainly not at the level of the victory of Captain Kazarsky against Selimiye and Real-Bey, but at least at the level of Gangut or the assault on Ishmael. but I saw a bunch of sad sobs and excuses