Solving the problem of "saturating" air defense attacks

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19 April 2019 of the Year "Military Review" published an article “The air defense breakthrough by exceeding its ability to intercept targets: solutions”. The author, Andrei Mitrofanov, raised an extremely important and very interesting topic and highlighted the problem that in the very near future would “drive” classical air defense systems to a dead end. We are talking about the so-called “saturating” attack, when the number of targets (let's not talk, real or real and false together) significantly exceeds the fire performance of the defending air defense systems.

Unfortunately, having raised the problem and very carefully pointing out its various aspects, the author went “not there” in search of an answer to the question of how to solve this problem.



We will understand.

The saturation of the defender’s fire system with such a number of targets that he cannot technically hit is a very old tactical device, and not only in air warfare. This method requires the use of a large number of forces and means in an attack, but it gives a lot: if the defender cannot destroy all the targets, then his defeat becomes not very difficult - of course, if the defender's capabilities are calculated correctly.

To modern air defense, which is built around anti-aircraft guided missiles, this applies to the maximum extent. It should be understood that in fact we are dealing with two different problems.

The first is the use of false targets to disguise real means of air attack (EAS).

The most famous false target to cover shock aviation and guided missiles from air defense systems - this is the American MALD. One attack aircraft of the US Air Force in an attack can carry 12 or more of these missiles that will divert the fire of ground defense. Together with the airplanes-jammers with whom the Americans accompany the strike groups, and adjusted for the number of planes in the strike group (20-50), the problem of hitting all targets detected by air defense systems is unsolvable, if only because of the limited ammunition, which is good the author writes.

Experts and non-specialists are discussing the idea of ​​selecting false targets. In any case, the signature of a false target and a real aviation weapon (TSA) will be different. A relatively small distance at which the battle is conducted (tens of kilometers) can allow, under certain conditions, this signature to be considered.

However, this is, firstly, a big question, and secondly, the development of missiles - false targets will sooner or later lead to the indistinguishability of their signatures with those of real EAS or TSA (especially when it comes to the destruction of the TSA - bombs or missiles) . And thirdly, and this is the most important thing, if someday the possibility of such a selection is realized, the problem of saturating air defense attacks will simply turn into another form.

So, problem number two - air defense can be saturated ONLY with the help of TSA, without false targets. Then all or almost all of the goals will be real, and they will need to be destroyed or removed by interference all, without exception.

How much is in question?

Well, let's count.

Suppose we have an attacking group of X-NUMX-x F-22E planes, each of which carries 15 small GBU-20 / B planning bombs, distraction groups of six of the same "Strike Needles" carrying false targets MALD on 53, and of the eight F-12CJ air defense suppression groups armed with an APM AGM-16 HARM pair. Since even for such a group, the air defense breakthrough is not guaranteed, then at the same time an 88 F-10E is hit on the object with the help of the AGM-15 planning bombs dropped from a great height, in the amount of 154 units per plane.

According to the plan, the actions of the group armed with AGM-154 JSOW will force the enemy to detect themselves by turning on the radar and launching the missiles, which will allow the F-16CJ hiding at low altitudes to release their 16 PI, which should destroy the long-range radar air defense missile system, which has worked on and leave only anti-aircraft cover systems, which will be used to reset 154 planning bombs with F-440E, and to ensure that the survivors of long-range air defense systems and short-range air defense systems do not hit the main attack group, 15 false MALD targets are used.

We will not fantasize about how this fight ended. It is better to calculate how many targets need to be “dumped” by the attacked air defenses.

Aircraft - 46.
PRR - 16.
False targets - 72.
Planning bombs AGM-154 - 20.
GBU-53 / B planning bombs - 440.
Total - 594 goals.

If it seems to someone that these scales are too large for a real war, then let them study the attack on the reactor in Ozirak (the same one that the Israelis did not finish off at one time) by the US Air Force in 1991 - in the attacking group there were 32 attack aircraft and 43 of support aircraft (escort interceptors, jammers and PRR carriers, tankers). This is the norm for the attack of a more or less fortified object.

Even if everything except the last wave of small bombs is removed from the scheme, and even if we assume that one bomb is throwing 1,5 missiles, then the number of missiles in the defending air defense system and the air defense system must be fantastic. And even more fantastic will be their price - no matter how cheap small-sized rockets are, the anti-aircraft installations themselves do not belong to cheap equipment. Will our budget “pull” hundreds of new air defense missile systems and thousands of disposable anti-aircraft missiles? The answer is obvious.

At sea, the problem is even more acute: there it is impossible neither to hide the parameters of the air defense systems (they are known for each type of ships) from the enemy, nor to replenish the ammunition assembly of the ship-based air defense systems between attacks. And in the early eighties, American consumption rates for hitting shipboard strike groups were counted in dozens of missiles in the first attacking wave, with the task BRIEF to block the firing performance of Soviet shipboard air defense systems.

However, the Americans are in a similar position. No matter how they would improve the electronics and computers of their AEGIS, the “ceiling” of their fire performance does not change, is determined by the Mk.41 launcher and its method of connecting to the shipboard BIUS and is 0,5 anti-aircraft missiles per second. Multiplying this by the number of URO ships in the warrant, we will get the fire performance limit, which on the current ships they are not something that can not be overstepped.

Nothing prevents us from allocating an amount of anti-ship missiles for an attack, just as accurately BRIEF to block this fire performance.

We summarize: any air defense system is “saturated” before losing the ability to hit targets and is immediately destroyed. The attacking side will ALWAYS be able to use more TSA than the defender has anti-aircraft missiles. It is impossible to repel such attacks by rockets using existing methods.

But this does not mean that the "sword" defeated the "shield".

Our good old friends come to the rescue - anti-aircraft guns.

The trend for the emergence of medium and large caliber anti-aircraft systems in the world has been clearly visible for a long time. Any naval cannon is universal and can shoot at air targets. The appearance of guided projectiles or projectiles with programmable detonation dramatically expands their combat capabilities. In this case, if we talk about systems caliber 57-76 mm, then they are also pretty fast-fired.

Here, for example, our legendary and quite “land” fires C-60, The “heroine” of the Vietnam War.



Why is this caliber remarkable? By the fact that, on the one hand, it is realistic to make a projectile with a programmable detonation, and on the other hand, to ensure a high rate of fire, substantially exceeding one shot per second.

And this is the solution: in response to a hail of small bombs, send them towards a wave of cheap compared to anti-aircraft missiles, hang a “steel wall” in the way of TSA. Today, many countries are working on such projects. Here is a "top" foreign example to which one should strive.



However, we are interested in solutions that are compatible with our realities, and there are such solutions.

We look at this gun module from the Slovenian Valhalla turrets. Familiar barrel, is not it? So. This is our C-60, but on an autonomous crewless turret, with an optical-electronic guidance system, with twin machine guns and rockets for firing a volley. Not visible from the outside, but the “cassette” with 4 shells on this installation has been replaced by an 92-charging magazine. Novelty called "Desert Spider". Details here.

Solving the problem of "saturating" air defense attacks

Desert Spider.


Take a slightly more extreme example — our own 100-mm anti-aircraft gun KS-19who also fought with the Americans. According to some sources, the last time such a gun shot down a combat aircraft during the “Storm in the Desert”, and it was the Tornado fighter-bomber at the height of 6700 meters.
This is what was done with this instrument in Iran:



It is worth noting that in calibers 76 and more than millimeters it is possible to create not only a projectile with a programmable detonation, but also a guided projectile, in its effectiveness is not inferior to the “Pantsirevskomu” “Nail.” But due to the absence of the first stage with the engine is much cheaper.

It is worth noting that the high-rate of fire and the ability to fire at air targets was achieved on the Russian-made sea cannons.

This is 76-mm AK-176.



And this - 100-mm A-190 with corvette "lively"



Now we count. The battery is 4 guns, with a firing rate of at least 60 shots per minute (it must be understood that the practical rate of fire is below the technical), they will shoot 240 shells at the enemy. If they are 76-100 mm guns, then all of them can be controlled. If 57-mm, then with a remote impulse, but there is talk about about 400 shells per minute.

And two batteries of the same 100 millimeter is 480 guided anti-aircraft projectiles per minute.

This is the solution. Not an insane increase in the number of TPCs with missiles on the air defense system, in an attempt to embrace the immense (although the combat readiness must be increased within reasonable limits). A combination of medium or large caliber automatic anti-aircraft cannon with a controlled anti-aircraft projectile and / or a programmable projectile projectile.

And here we have a good one news. Russia is the world leader in terms of technologies for creating such tools. At least, while some are building experimental models with our old 57-mm cannon, we have almost ready combat vehicles.

So, the combat vehicle born within the framework of the OCR "Derivation-Air Defense" is a self-propelled anti-aircraft artillery complex with the 2C38 combat vehicle.



This is an anti-aircraft automatic cannon caliber 57 mm, mounted on the BMP-3 chassis. Its characteristic feature is only passive, non-emitting guidance systems. Find such a machine at times more difficult than any air defense system.

Brief characteristics:
The maximum range of destruction - 6 km.
The maximum height of the lesion is 4,5 km.
The rate of fire - 120 shots per minute.
Full ammunition - 148 shots.
Vertical guidance angle - 5 degrees / + 75 degrees.
Horizontal pointing angle - 360 hail.
The maximum speed of the targets hit is 500 m / s.
Calculation - 3 people.

From blog "Center AST".

The 2C38 combat vehicle is equipped with an optical-electronic detection and aiming system for the IES OP, developed by Minsk JSC "Peleng". It allows you to carry out panoramic observation of the terrain at 360 degrees, as well as keep a sector review. The detection range through one of the television channels of a small unmanned aerial vehicle of the Bird Eye 400 type in the viewing mode is stated in 700 m, in the narrow field of view mode - 4900 m. - in 10 6400 m. The thermal imaging channel allows you to detect 12 x 300 m targets with a 2,3% probability at a distance of 2,3 80 m and recognize them at a distance of 10 000 m.


Control system of anti-aircraft fire produced by JSC "Peleng" (Belarus).



This is so correct course of thought that I want to jump and clap for the joy of our ground forces. It remains only to wait for the projectile with a programmable detonation and the final adjustment of the machine according to the test results.

Of course, we also need a car for jamming in the radar, infrared and optical bands. It is necessary to ensure the firing of the battery and the division with the distribution of targets between the guns. It is necessary to ensure coordination with the air defense system and to work out a joint application. But without this new art. the system is a giant breakthrough step in the right direction. Although we, of course, can not relax.

And on navy urgently need to solve the issue with guided anti-aircraft shells calibers 76, 100 and 130 mm. And the work of ship’s guns in collective air defense mode. It is also worth evaluating the correctness of the transition to a single gun mount on the bow for all classes of ships - it is possible that on large ships it is worth considering a return to double-tower architecture. However, this is not a fact, which is true, and should be the subject of study.

One way or another, but thanks to the perspicacity of someone in the land forces, Russia had a very good foundation for the era of supermassive air strikes. He, it is worth noting, does not cancel the anti-aircraft missile systems, it complements them. Occupying their own special niche. In the future, anti-aircraft missiles and revived cannon anti-aircraft artillery will be used together.

It is necessary, however, to make a reservation.

Economically, our country is not so strong. And making a bet on the newest system for 57-mm projectile, you need to understand: there is not enough money for everything. Therefore, it is imperative that, simultaneously with the completion of work on the ROC “Derivation-Air Defense”, it is necessary to carry out work to modernize the C-60 stored in the image and likeness of the “Desert Spider”, but without excesses such as a paired machine gun or missiles - KamAZ or Ural trucks and tracked MTLB tractors. Such equipment is still a lot to be preserved, and the “merging” of the modernized 57-mm gun and landing gear from the presence should save a lot of money for the country. And money saved means more weapons and greater defenses.

And of course, it is worth considering the issue of returning large-caliber anti-aircraft guns to the system with the creation of a controlled projectile specially for them. As already mentioned, the caliber 57 mm allows you to make a projectile with a programmable detonation, but does not allow you to make a full-fledged controlled with a powerful explosive charge. 100-mm caliber is another matter. And Russia, with its scientific and technical potential, can do this much better than Iran.

We have all the trump cards in our hands, we just need to correctly go with them.

Let's hope it happens one day.
290 comments
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  1. +12
    April 22 2019 05: 22
    That is why the United States relies on air defense on fighter jets to hit carriers, not ammunition.
    1. +13
      April 22 2019 05: 49
      If we are talking about aggression, then you are right. In this case, not on fighters, but on strike aircraft. For protection, such a bet will not work. The Tu-95 will launch the news of the X-101 ammunition, and the F-35 will not even fly in its direction, there will not be enough fuel back.
      1. -3
        April 22 2019 09: 19
        Author, you shouldn't show your ignorance about the Pantsir guided missiles. Moreover, without knowing their parameters.
        Quote: 17085
        It is worth noting that in calibers 76 and more than millimeters it is possible to create not only a projectile with a programmable detonation, but also a guided projectile, in its effectiveness is not inferior to the “Pantsirevskomu” “Nail.” But due to the absence of the first stage with the engine is much cheaper.

        It's just a fantasy. Anti-aircraft guns with controlled detonation can only supplement short-range air defense systems, and not replace. Can you understand why? Just Derivation ", there is a solution in this direction with its own shortcomings. And you do not need to transfer your judgments about Poseidon to the air defense system, where there are many technical problems with this direction of air defense development. Learn to understand the parameters of these systems. Do not forget about the effectiveness of these systems, and at what range, and against what targets.
        1. +5
          April 22 2019 13: 02
          The bet should be placed not on fighters, not on missiles and not on anti-aircraft guns.
          The bet should be placed on COMPLETE air defense, including both detection tools, and jammers and the creation of false targets, and various means of destruction.
          On the near lines I agree. There is nothing more effective than anti-aircraft guns. And again, separation, both long-range large-caliber and quick-firing small-caliber anti-aircraft guns are needed. And electronic means of guiding them.
        2. 0
          April 22 2019 13: 17
          What you have signed with my quote is not my quote.
          1. -2
            April 22 2019 16: 20
            17085, sorry, apparently there was a failure. I took a quote from an article by Timokhin and I turn to the author. You need to delete the comment above, move the cursor over the question mark. The VO program does not give me the opportunity to delete. Excuse me.
        3. -2
          April 22 2019 16: 15
          Author, you shouldn't show your ignorance about the Pantsir guided missiles. Moreover, without knowing their parameters.
          Quote: timokhin-a-autoit It is worth noting that in calibers of 76 and more millimeters it is possible to create not only a projectile with a programmable detonation, but also a guided projectile that is not inferior in effectiveness to the “shell” “Nail”. But due to the lack of a first stage with an engine much cheaper.

          It's just a fantasy. Anti-aircraft guns with controlled detonation can only supplement short-range air defense systems, and not replace. Can you understand why? Just Derivation ", there is a solution in this direction with its own shortcomings. And you do not need to transfer your judgments about Poseidon to the air defense system, where there are many technical problems with this direction of air defense development. Learn to understand the parameters of these systems. Do not forget about the effectiveness of these systems, and at what range, and against what targets.
          1. +1
            April 22 2019 16: 49
            Here I agree with you. Artillery can complement short-range air defense systems to increase combat performance.
            But the author considers a "spherical horse in a vacuum". To attack most Russian objects (according to the author's scheme), you still need to approach them, through the entire territory (saturated with air defense weapons), moreover, the author did not cite in his example of repelling an attack - the actions of air defense and electronic warfare aviation.
            Russia, not Libya or Syria, where you can launch an attack on an object from neutral or alien territory.
            An echeloned air defense system should be formed for each country or territory individually, but who bothers with it. We bought a cool air defense system and think that they are in the "house", and do not even think about positioning it correctly.
            The world is "saying" that only Russia has a full-fledged layered air defense.
            1. +3
              April 22 2019 22: 31
              Quote: Old Skeptic
              Russia, not Libya or Syria, where you can launch an attack on an object from neutral or alien territory.

              All right, we are NOT Libya and NOT Syria, we have a "nuclear shield", and its presence does not mean that our air defense is effective. Now, if our air defense could protect another country, then they would be the best! And so, yes, they fight not by numbers, but by skill.
              1. +1
                April 24 2019 12: 13
                And is another country ready to pay for a complete layered system with all the necessary equipment?
                You have inattentively read my post.
                1. 0
                  April 24 2019 22: 24
                  I carefully read your post, and still my logic remains the same. no air defense system in the world is capable of providing protection against a saturating attack. Even the ZAK, highly praised by the author, cannot. This is evidenced by the fact that no one in the world has conducted experimental tests for stability. And they do not do this because they understand perfectly well that none of the existing air defense systems can withstand 60+ waves of 10 missiles from different sides. Yes, I did not make a reservation exactly 600 missiles, maybe less, maybe more, but on average, about as many, as many missiles can be launched by AUG / KUG. That's why I said that the best defense is a nuclear shield.
                  1. 0
                    April 26 2019 13: 45
                    1. After the first few waves, CD carriers will begin to demolish. (time is needed to raise aviation)
                    2. To reach many critical sites in Russia, carriers need to travel thousands of kilometers. over an area saturated with air defense, or approach a dangerous distance to the shore (do not forget about the range of axes, it is not infinite).
                    3. Over-the-horizon radars are able to detect at a great distance, if not carriers, then auxiliary devices: refuellers, AWACS (MiG-31 help them).
                    1. 0
                      April 26 2019 14: 46
                      So I read your post and see that you do not understand me, I'm talking about Thomas, you're talking about me. try re-reading the thread and look at your comments from a different perspective.
                  2. DJO
                    0
                    22 June 2019 15: 20
                    Everything in your calculations is very simplistic. The entire "front" and not the "island" grouping will reflect the raid. At the beginning, the "carriers" will be fired upon, then, as the number of targets grows, everyone who remains. Long-range non-pilot "weapons" are expensive and their quantity is limited.
                    The attacking forces will be fired on from four sides. As long as there is a risk of losses, our partners will not attack anyone above the "acceptable". Conclusion - buy air defense systems from independent manufacturers or do it yourself. When,
                    Surviving heroes of the sky, surprise can wait for them to return to base.
                    1. -1
                      22 June 2019 17: 45
                      Quote: DJO
                      The entire "front" and not the "island" group will reflect the raid

                      The enemy will first destroy one target due to a glut, then reload from warehouses and / or supply ships and repeat the destruction.
                      Do you understand your mistake?
            2. 0
              19 January 2023 02: 49
              they still need to be approached, through the entire territory (saturated with air defense systems),
              _____

              what the hell, brat! tell us in 2023 about the territory "saturated with air defense"?

              sofa analytics, damn it!
    2. -1
      April 22 2019 06: 32
      and who prevents to shoot down planes before they launch their missiles?
      1. +14
        April 22 2019 06: 56
        Quote: Graz
        and who prevents to shoot down planes before they launch their missiles?

        Not "who", but "what.
        1. The distance.
        X-101 range of 5500 km. F-35 flight range is 2500km.
        2. Retaliation.
        If the Tu-95 is destroyed at the airfield, then the F-35 will have nowhere to return. Ramstein will be destroyed ... Like decision centers.
        1. +5
          April 22 2019 09: 54
          Quote: 17085
          X-101 range of 5500 km.

          And what prevents them from shooting down?
          It will not be possible to "oversaturate" the air defense system with such missiles, you can go broke.
          1. +2
            April 22 2019 16: 48
            Quote: Spade
            Quote: 17085
            X-101 range of 5500 km.

            And what prevents them from shooting down?
            It will not be possible to "oversaturate" the air defense system with such missiles, you can go broke.

            I am writing that fighter-based air defense is nonsense.
            The saturation of the air defense system of any country will occur comprehensively and artillery is not a solution to the problem.
          2. +3
            April 22 2019 16: 56
            The transience of what is happening. X-101 if it flies, then not one, not five, and not even ten. They will first have to be detected by radar, identified and shot down, which is not an initially guaranteed event.
            1. 0
              April 23 2019 15: 45
              You can shoot down everything, remember how in Syria, Syrian air defense shot down almost all American missiles. After all, even here in the comments then many commentators rejoiced and admired the effectiveness of air defense. So their air defense can be shot down by almost all of our missiles.
              1. +3
                April 23 2019 16: 44
                Quote: Fan-Fan
                You can shoot down everything, remember how in Syria, Syrian air defense shot down almost all American missiles.

                But our designers of hypersonic weapons and the president will not agree with you. They have repeatedly stated that some of our tactical and strategic missile systems are almost impossible to bring down with available and promising air defense / missile defense systems.

                And yes, many of us said that almost all American missiles were knocked down, but I personally do not believe in it. I saw the places where the missiles hit, but there is no evidence of their mass destruction.

                But even if we imagine that this is so, then we (and the Syrians) have a wider choice of Soviet-Russian air defense systems, as well as the range of their application.
                1. -1
                  April 25 2019 09: 19
                  From the so-called. "hypersonic weapons" our president actually demonstrated only "cartoons". The famous "Dagger" suspended under the MiG-31BM is a Soviet development brought to a small series, just like the MiG-31BM itself. Moreover, the series is so small that in the USSR these "achievements" would justly be attributed to "experimental exploitation". The homing of these missiles at maneuvering targets (anti-ship missiles, right?) Is a big question of principle due to the laws of physics. In general, in the USSR, aircraft with nuclear control systems, missiles with the same were brought to real prototypes, then, for reasons of principle, they were abandoned. Although money was spent on defense several times more than Russia, and most importantly, it was plundered several times less. Have the laws of physics changed in 30 years? As for non-intercepted tactical and strategic missiles, I have to refer you back to the laws of physics: apart from the division by targets (tactical, operational-tactical, strategic), there is also a division by the type of missiles: ballistic or cruise. Winged aircraft are a common air force, the issue of intercepting them is the issue of availability of forces and equipment, combat readiness, etc., as well as the issue of intercepting aircraft. Interception of ballistic missiles is a very difficult issue as an applied science issue. The successes of the USA, USSR and Russia in this direction are so far between modest and very modest. But it is difficult to intercept any ballistic missile: ours, American, Chinese and even Indian. To credit this to our president? Let's also give him credit for the theory of relativity. The reaction of the US military to the Address of the President of the Russian Federation, or rather its absence, is quite understandable. What do adults do with cartoons? give to see children.
                  1. +1
                    April 25 2019 09: 44
                    Why do you move from facts to personal assumptions? I am aware of the origins of the complex with the MiG-31 and about the types of missiles and about the laws of physics. The fact that the project comes from the USSR does not mean its low efficiency, and yes, the Dagger is currently on experimental combat duty, and this is normal practice. And I didn’t credit the president with merit, I just quoted what was said earlier in my own words and I have no reason not to believe it, only because a certain number of people on the Internet from time to time replicate the same theses about "cartoons" and physics ... The laws have not changed, but new technologies have appeared. And the fact that it was possible to preserve the controllability of the aircraft in conditions of plasma formation, for example, was said a long time ago and was repeated many times. And by the way, the reaction from the US military was not long in coming. There were also statements in the reports (to the Congress, it seems) that they did not have an adequate response to such weapons, and plans were repeatedly voiced to reduce the gap in this area. It will take just a few years and the Americans will have their serial counterparts.
                    1. -1
                      April 25 2019 19: 59
                      I ask you not to confuse the controllability of the aircraft under conditions of "plasma formation" with the possibility of the same aircraft for homing under the same conditions. As they say in Odessa, these are two big, and most importantly, fundamental differences. As for the fact that the project was originally from the USSR, I pointed out not that this was a drawback, but that the USSR refused any planes, missiles, torpedoes and other "miracles" with nuclear power plants voluntarily and hardly because of peacefulness, before thereby bringing them to the working models, testing them and spending millions of people's money on this, for which then they asked much tougher. Even with the "sucker" Brezhnev, the "Soyuz" did not fall, and the cosmodrome, which was not completed in time, would have turned into serious organizational conclusions. As for the "Dagger". Two points: 1. In the USSR, even during the Gorbachev era, experimental exploitation would have been called that, and they would not have frightened everyone and everything with it. Very similar to the Third Reich with its "wunderwaffe". When did it appear there and how did it end, remind? 2. I am still not sure about the Dagger's homing system. Soviet scientists have brought a lot to mind, or almost to mind (the same F-35, by and large, the implementation in modern technologies of the Yakovlev Design Bureau decisions, sold to the Americans in the 90s and received state funding from them only in the 2000s. the firm will not pay money, especially with a vague prospect). If there was a possibility of homing on hypersound, it would have been used back in the USSR, on the same "Granites" and "Volcanoes", intended for guaranteed destruction of aircraft carriers even without SBS. Moreover, the dimension and modernization potential of these missiles made it possible to reach hypersound and change the seeker. And at the expense of the serial hypersonic missiles of the Americans and "other Swedes", unlike our country, their peoples live "satisfyingly", it is really safe and such cartoons are interesting only to children, and you must not understand what the parliaments will not allow to throw out millions.
                      1. +1
                        April 25 2019 21: 56
                        By the way, I also know about the connection between the Yak-141 and F-35. And your comments about the Granite and Vulcan homing systems are interesting, without irony. But I would like to note a few points. As for nuclear power plants. Why do you think that these were successfully implemented even with advice? Compact nuclear control systems were used if memory serves, even in some satellites, but they were not suitable for use in engines. Just as it was impossible to solve the problems of nuclear engines in the aircraft Myasishchev. Here, it seems to me (I can only guess) that it still takes place to bring old technologies to mind because of new features, materials, etc. And about the Unions. Even under Brezhnev there were accidents and catastrophes of space ships. But that's not the point. At that time, the entire “organism” of the space industry was established and he knew in which direction he was moving, unlike today. How many years and in what stagnation was our space exploration, while the country tried new varieties of sausage and Coca-Cola? This is not a personal complaint to you, if that. All in all, thanks for your constructive answer.
                      2. -1
                        April 26 2019 12: 27
                        There were flying samples of aircraft and missiles with nuclear power plants, for example, based on the Tu-95. They refused, because they posed a more serious threat to the operator than to the enemy. New materials and technologies will not solve the fundamental issues of "dirty" engines.
                      3. 0
                        14 July 2019 07: 53
                        Destruction of the aggressor is much better for the environment than "dirty" engines.
                        The difference is that in Russia their traces will be cleaned.
                  2. 0
                    1 June 2019 18: 15
                    We talked about the Crimean bridge, too, they said "Cartoon", but it exists and cars go along it, and about the rest. Our president is not as yap as many in this forum.
      2. +3
        April 23 2019 10: 03
        Quote: Graz
        and who prevents to shoot down planes before they launch their missiles?

        Everything is correct) Good air defense begins with the dominance of the air of his aircraft)
      3. 0
        April 23 2019 22: 01
        The reaction time of any air defense system and the passage of commands along the control circuits, plus a rigid link to the OP or SP, which the enemy probably knows
    3. +2
      April 22 2019 09: 51
      Quote: riwas
      That is why the United States relies on fighter aircraft defense

      They did it. Now they are hastily trying to fill the gap in the field of short- and medium-range air defense systems. Sometimes offering weighty controversial decisions like launching anti-aircraft missiles with MLRS
      And very expensive "Patriots" they have been "in service" for a long time, and they are regularly updated
      1. 0
        14 July 2019 07: 57
        "and are regularly updated"
        ***
        "renewed" in the sense that they are being destroyed by antiques?
  2. +10
    April 22 2019 05: 33
    Artillery is a dubious option. By the way, has anyone seen a video where the Carapace uses a cannon to shoot down something? Unfortunately, even in the "military acceptance" nothing intelligible is visible.
    Why does the author ignore the means of electronic warfare and the false goals of the attacked side?
    I consider the example of an attack by the Iranian nuclear plant not entirely correct. Since the answer from Iran or the answer from Russia are two different things. One thing unites them - this is a one-time action. If they do not repeat it with Iran, because most likely, it will not work again. In the case of Russia, the conflict will move to another plane.
    With the first blow, the author did not discover America. Pure mathematics, whoever hits first, with approximately equal forces, will win.
    1. +9
      April 22 2019 13: 07
      The Shell has old-style shells that are uncontrollable in any way. That's why the mistakes. Remote detonation + directional cone of fragments will increase the likelihood of defeat at times and tens of times.
      1. 0
        April 23 2019 03: 59
        Quote: meandr51
        The Shell has old-style shells that are uncontrollable in any way. That's why the mistakes. Remote detonation + directional cone of fragments will increase the likelihood of defeat at times and tens of times.

        Two barrels and the highest rate of fire, if only 152mm can be compared in terms of the mass of the salvo, I’m not sure, the shell will be higher in configuration and mass.
        1. 0
          14 July 2019 08: 05
          If the scythe will drum paws on the rails at a speed of 2M, he still will not cut it.
          If the guns were sniper, they could do something else on radio-controlled models the size of a pickup truck. But provided that all the ammunition is spent on 1 but such a device.
          And so he can’t even take off a flying forehead. Shock power is not enough.
          And then there was not yet a clean artillery anti-aircraft gun on a 20-ton chassis, and without an MBT escort. The same Shilka and Torah have always worked closely with armored vehicles. The carapace should cover the zones of the location of air defense forces. This is goal number 1 for the enemy’s MBT assault groups. With a 30mm caliber, the Shell against such groups is not consistent. He needs a larger caliber.
    2. +2
      April 22 2019 14: 24
      Rather, the accents are incorrectly placed in the article - the author talks about air defense and cites naval equipment as an example. Only here, Derivation is a complex of defense of the last frontier and can only be considered as an option of additional air defense, but not the main one. Such a complex can deal with other tasks - intercepting mortar mines or small kamikaze drones. A similar complex is just needed for the functioning of military bases in foreign countries - to combat the means of destruction of artisanal production. For a full-fledged war we need a full-fledged air defense !!! The author incorrectly positioned the purpose of this complex.
    3. +1
      April 23 2019 10: 31
      [quote = 17085] Artillery is a dubious option. [/ quote]
      Just looking at what kind of artillery) If such as "Wood" (from the word "tree" as I understand it), which [quote] The detection range through one of the television channels of a small unmanned aerial vehicle such as Bird Eye 400 in the survey mode is declared at 700 m, in [/ quote] What is there to talk about, especially when you consider that the speed of the survey of space depends on the operator and on how he turns the viewing unit, with a rather narrow field of view?
      But if this is something that sees everything around, tracks a solid array of uels, automatically hits dangerous and ground for small goals - that’s another matter)
      1. +1
        April 23 2019 18: 51
        Quote: tchoni
        "Wood" (from the word "tree" as I understand it),


        Derivation from the word "derivative", which means a deviation of something from the trajectory.
    4. +1
      April 23 2019 10: 38
      Quote: 17085
      By the way, did anyone see a video where the Shell uses a gun to knock something down? TO

      The point is that the cannons of the carapace are sharpened "for the plane." They form a very large projectile cloud, which is almost impossible to fly through without damage to the aircraft (due to its large geometric dimensions). But something "Mayverik-like" passes through a cloud with a distance of 1 meter between projectiles quite easily. But, planes do not fly close to the shell, and if he can shoot down a rekut with guns, then with a low probability. Output? one more accurate barrel is needed, something like an AK-630 or some other gatling. Or reduce the trunks as much as possible as in an old shilka.
      1. 0
        April 25 2019 20: 41
        The rate of fire of the AK-630 is approximately equal and even slightly inferior to the rate of fire of the two 2A38 Pantsir (they switched to it from the Tungusska). So what about "one more accurate barrel" is not for the AK-630 unambiguously.
    5. 0
      April 25 2019 09: 27
      I agree with you about camouflage, false targets and the use of electronic warfare by the side repelling the air strike. But I have to point out an important (in my opinion) mistake of yours: Osirak is a reactor in Iraq, not in Iran.
  3. +6
    April 22 2019 06: 28
    Well, yes - the revival of medium-caliber (76-100mm) artillery at a new qualitative level is not a panacea, but a good one, such an appendage of the last chance. And KAZs.
  4. +10
    April 22 2019 06: 30
    400 rounds per minute for the four-gun battery AZP-57. 100 shells per barrel ... End to trunks, guns for repair. A continuous line of 40-50 shells is already incapacitating the S-60 cannon.
    AK-176 is a forced barrel cooling.
    1. 0
      April 22 2019 09: 58
      Quote: old_pferd
      AK-176 is a forced barrel cooling.

      The author forgot about it. Or "forgot".
      There is not only a problem of rate of fire, there is also a problem of accuracy.
      That is, ground mobile ZAK will never be able to repeat either the fire mode or the accuracy of its ship analogs
      1. +2
        April 22 2019 12: 37
        Well, why, isn’t it possible to include a barrel of water and a pump in the gun? For the 57 mm, it may be a little hard, but for the 100 mm extra 250 kg is already unprincipled.
        1. 0
          April 22 2019 12: 41
          Quote: bk0010
          Well, why, isn’t it possible to include a barrel of water and a pump in the gun?

          Can. Only a big barrel is needed. And the best is the pool ....
          But we're talking about mobile ZAK, aren't we?
          "Hospitals" is, of course, cool. But I'm afraid their time has passed.
        2. 0
          April 22 2019 13: 15
          As far as I remember, a manual cooling kit was mentioned in the manuals for the AZP-57 guns. But the teachers replied that the S-60 complex is in service with the air defense of the Ground Forces, and with this kit it is not mobile, and in reality this kit is not in service.
          1. 0
            April 23 2019 22: 18
            Each AZP S-60 gun’s kit includes a barrel water cooling system, and a spare barrel. All this is messing around in the back of the Urals, along with BC and crew. You need to understand that the task of air defense of the NE was to intimidate the pilot so that he would turn off course, break up the system and randomly dump his load. After all, the IA shot down many times more than the barrel artillery during the Second World War. And that today, His Majesty DRON or UAV, but you won’t scare him. Here is the simplest answer to the use of barrel artillery in air defense.
            1. 0
              April 24 2019 13: 58
              Maybe somewhere they are, but for five years of training, we have never been shown to him. We brought 3 full batteries to the landfill, which we raped for 3.5 months. There were also no these cooling kits. And it so happened that having the SUS-60 fire platoon commander at the graduation, I did not see this miracle.
              1. 0
                April 24 2019 20: 09
                they just wallowed in the pits, because at firing there is no maximum rate of fire.
                1. 0
                  April 24 2019 20: 19
                  It was training, at least one kit should be in order to know how it looks and how to mount it. And even theoretical training was not. I can’t even imagine how and from what water is taken for cooling. If from a water supply system, then I understand why there were none.
                  1. 0
                    April 24 2019 20: 35
                    Water was poured into the tank, a hand pump, as before at gas stations and two hoses, one on the side of the muzzle brake with an adapter for the barrel gauge, and the other on the bolt part, there the adapter is larger and with threaded notches, as on the shutter i.e. insert and crank, all this with the cocked shutter, then you pump the water, and it circulates the barrel-tank. We tried while the PSU was laid out on the loader’s table, outfitted into cassettes, wiped each with grease, two gunners and a guardsman managed to cool the barrel. And they didn’t teach you, because the S-60 complex was already useless for the air defense missile defense
                    1. 0
                      April 24 2019 21: 00
                      Thanks I'll know. And it was embarrassing - it seems to be in the manual, but in fact it wasn’t. I think that he was actually removed away in the air defense of the SV, and behind him the whole S-60. Intensive haulout lost its meaning, the target passes the affected area in 20 seconds, if at all.
                      1. 0
                        April 25 2019 19: 16
                        Barrage fire generally lost its meaning, since a tomahawk or UAV is not scared like a pilot.
      2. +1
        April 22 2019 15: 47
        Both Shilka and Tunguska have special forced barrel cooling.
        1. -1
          April 22 2019 16: 00
          Quote: Xenofont
          Both Shilka and Tunguska have special forced barrel cooling.

          Compare calibers.
          1. +1
            April 22 2019 16: 02
            Compare rate of fire.
            1. -2
              April 22 2019 16: 42
              Let's compare.
              So, "Shilka", 850 rounds per barrel per minute x 77 grams = 65,45 kg of gunpowder per minute
              S-60, 120 shells per barrel per minute x 1.2 kg = 144 kg of gunpowder per minute
              1. +1
                April 23 2019 22: 24
                A shilka can shoot its BC in a few minutes, and that’s enough for one target at best. Question-And what to do next than to shoot down the adversary during a massive raid using e-mail. means of suppression?
                1. 0
                  1 June 2019 18: 20
                  The massive raid still needs to fly to the borders of Russia, they will be on sight as soon as they take off and are unlikely to be able to fly far. Our territory is the best air defense system in Russia.
      3. -2
        April 22 2019 22: 52
        Nooooo, there the problem is simply the number of PSUs, even if they have ZAK and more than the SAM, but the expense for one goal is the same!
        In general, when I personally looked for a way to solve the problem of oversaturation, I came to the conclusion that: the only real way to protect this is an APC with a petal warhead arrangement, with a cone-shaped shrapnel field of fragments, launched on the rollback of the barrel forward in a multi-barrel installation with rotary-conveyor feeding. (ohh how long and difficult it was once formulated laughing) In general, such a setup will allow you to launch hundreds and thousands of shells with minimal impact on the carrier, which will allow you to shoot down hundreds and thousands of missiles flying from different sides and angles, and even in several waves. True, such an installation has a number of drawbacks, for example, APC creates infrared / optical illumination making it difficult to find a target in this range, as well as a number of problems, for example, with creating a conveyor for setting unlimited rotation.
      4. 0
        4 March 2020 08: 47
        That's quite possible. In addition, there is no pitching.
  5. +2
    April 22 2019 06: 40
    Only fighter aircraft can save.
  6. +3
    April 22 2019 07: 57
    Unfortunately, it is pointless to hope that the "modernized" artillery will solve all the author's problems! This is a "dead end"! Because I already once considered this idea and, in the end, came to the conclusion that "the game is not worth the candle!" And, most importantly, this will not solve the problems that bother the Author. Art equipment? Art projectile? Yo-my, if the projectile is powerful, then what dimensions and weight should the recoil devices be? What volume will remain in, for example, a self-propelled gun for ammunition, crew after installing such a weapon? One more thing: the creation of a guided 57-mm projectile is more difficult, more expensive than the creation of a guided, especially homing, missile ... and in production, a guided artillery round will be more expensive than a guided missile of the same "caliber" and range (reach). Again .. . the stock of shells cannot be "rubber"! Moreover, do not forget that the shells are quite expensive! There are still arguments, but is it worth talking about them when you can talk about missiles and MLRS ...
    And that is why, for example, I am impressed by the idea of ​​"Techmash" to create "light (ultralight)" rockets and small-caliber compact (!) MLRS, as an alternative to the American project MNTK! This project (MNTK) deserves special attention. The Americans are designing MNTK missiles in a caliber of 50-40 mm, a range of 2,5 km-4 km and a weight of 2,2 kg-3 kg .... Let Tekhmash's products be "simpler" (caliber 57-72 mm) and cheaper. What "pluses" do I find in 57mm / 72mm / 76mm MLRS compared to 57mm and 76mm anti-aircraft guns?
    1.T.k. the warhead (seeker) of the missile does not have such high requirements (conditions) as to the guided projectile; then the guided 57-mm missile should be cheaper and it will be easier to create it. The rocket does not need an obturator sleeve with the necessary "physiological" properties. 2. PU does not need "bulky" recoil devices. To achieve the desired range, height, it is not necessary to lengthen the rather expensive, heavy barrel ... In MLRS, the barrels and ammunition are "2in1" ... "bottle". The issue of changing the caliber is quite simply solved. It remains, as in guns, the possibility of using very cheap unguided ammunition. For MLRS, as for a weapon, "dual functionality" is available: shooting not only at air targets, but also at ground targets ... A launcher can cost much cheaper than an anti-aircraft gun and "lose" it (even simply, throw it ...) will not be " difficult". Also PU "anti-aircraft" MLRS can be arranged in the type of the PT-complex NLOS-LS
    With the help of MLRS you can create and
    balloon "barriers" PS The use of guided anti-aircraft artillery shells "does not hurt", but as an additional (auxiliary) means to "two-medium" artillery pieces.
    1. +1
      April 22 2019 09: 47
      Anti-aircraft MLRS would be the most effective option for preventing the oversaturation of our air defense system with massive air raids by enemy aircraft and air attacks with the most massive enemy use of anti-aircraft defense, but completely abandon anti-aircraft artillery. systems are also not worth it.
      1. -1
        April 22 2019 22: 56
        Quote: sgrabik
        Anti-aircraft MLRS would be the most effective option to prevent the glut of our air defense system

        A small correction, not just MLRS, but MLRS based on the ARS barrels. This is important to maximize the initial speed and stabilize the trajectory.
    2. sen
      +1
      April 22 2019 13: 06
      You mean something like the American anti-aircraft missile system RIM-116 Rolling Airframe Missile with 21 SAM
      https://topwar.ru/31126-zenitnaya-raketa-ram-rim-116a.html
      https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIM-116_Rolling_Airframe_Missile
    3. +1
      April 23 2019 22: 31
      If you continue your thought, it makes sense as a warhead to use the components of a volumetric explosion, a vacuum. After all, the task is to combat mass raid using cheap drones.
    4. -1
      April 25 2019 09: 48
      The Germans had already tried MLRS systems as anti-aircraft systems, they refused, although in the second half of the second world the question of repelling massive raids was very acute. Reasons on the surface: such an installation will require a very accurate guidance system, which must determine not only the angular coordinates of the target and its angular velocity, but also the range. And the latter is possible only with the use of emitting means (radar or laser). Bottom line: we get a weak copy of the air defense system with all its disadvantages and without any advantages. As for the cost, for some reason almost everyone in the comments repeats the fundamental mistake of the author of the article (although the article itself is good), believing that a guided projectile is much cheaper than a guided missile. Quite the opposite: a short-range UR powder engine costs mere pennies in comparison with the electronic "stuffing". Taking into account the severe weight and size restrictions and high accelerations acting on the artillery shell when fired, its "filling", taking into account R&D, will come out much more expensive. This is what is holding back the development of such ammunition around the world. Shells with radio fuses took root in the USSR, tk. before the appearance and widespread distribution of air defense systems, barrel artillery had to shoot down bombers with nuclear weapons, the cost of ammunition became a secondary factor. In the rest of the world, radio fuses have taken root in ship ammunition, because the ship's ammunition load is limited, and the cost of the ship is incomparable with the cost of ammunition.
      1. 0
        April 25 2019 11: 33
        Quote: samaravega
        The MLRS systems have already been tried by the Germans as anti-aircraft guns, but they refused, although in the second half of the second world war, the reflection of massive raids was very acute among them.

        Firstly: there is no reliable information that the Germans managed to "somewhere ... a little ..." use anti-aircraft MLRS! Everything is at the level of "rumors", assumptions ... Even if somewhere "razik, another" was fired from 1-2 installations, then what can it give? No. negative Secondly: the Germans did not have time! We didn’t have time to finalize (!) Our anti-aircraft MLRS, even to test them “normally”! In the USSR they tried to continue the "Fritz business", but it seems that guided anti-aircraft missiles interrupted the situation ... (although sometimes I regret that by the "Korean" war there was no battery of anti-aircraft MLRS "at hand"! It would be good to try against "dense orders" of American B-29 ...); Thirdly: we are talking about "MLRS" with guided (corrected) missiles! In this case, it is more correct to speak of "multiply charged rocket launchers", and the name "MLRS" is to a certain extent conditional ...
        1. -1
          April 25 2019 20: 28
          Read Burgess's book "Guided Rocket Weapons", translated and published in our country back in 1958. It covers in sufficient detail the use of both guided and unguided jet (missile) weapons by the Germans to repel Allied air raids. In the USSR, the USA and Great Britain, they even managed to test and refine everything that came from the Germans and had at least some perspective. Although the names "Wasserfall" and "Typhoon" are unlikely to tell you anything. As for the Korean War and anti-aircraft MLRS against the B-29. Read Kozhedub, at what height, in what orders and echelons were the B-29. Find among the then, and the current MLRS, whose RS will quickly reach 10.000 m, and the "dense" orders were 3 bombers with a distance between them (bombers) up to 100 m in front and depth at the same height. Between the triplets, they kept 300 - 500 m in front and depth and up to 150 m in height. This made it possible to conduct effective defensive fire on fighters and at the same time maneuver in order to evade their fire. How many of your PCs will go to waste in these 100 - 150 m, taking into account that this is an altitude of 9.000 - 10.000 m? Thirdly, if we are talking about "multiply-charged rocket launchers" with guided (corrected) missiles, please decide. Missile control is possible of two types: homing a missile (then how does it differ from a missile defense system and in what way is it cheaper?) And control from the ground (how then to provide multichannel for guiding a MLRS salvo and how this MLRS differs from Pantsir, Tunguska and Torah "where ground guidance is used in different versions?).
          1. 0
            April 26 2019 03: 42
            Mdaaa! "Compote" you were not greedy! And I have to disentangle all this? And if I'm not interested ... to pour from "empty to empty"? It is elementary boring to deal with a brow, whose "smart" is turned to another angle! Well ... okay ... let's "tinker" a little ... 1. "Typhoon" - unguided anti-aircraft missile (Germany): clbr.-100 mm ... with solid propellant rocket engine or liquid propellant engine ... "altitude" -from 13 to 15 km (rounded ...); USSR: "Teal", "Swift" ... "altitude" -15 ... 18 km. So why are you scaring 10 km? (By the way, I almost forgot: the Germans were going to start mass production of their anti-aircraft MLRS, but did not have time! Only isolated cases of combat use were noted, which could not give a concrete result: "Typhoon" is gut or not ... "!) Unguided missiles at high altitude, they would have a large dispersion and this could become a "plus" ... then it would in a certain sense "don't care" at what distance the B-29 flew from each other. The meaning would have: a) the number of in missiles in a volley; b) the time of the volley .. 2. Did I say that "anti-aircraft" MLRS were needed in the "Korean" war? I just said that if I had "at hand" battery of experimental installations, it was not bad to use them in that war ... because to say: to conduct final tests in combat conditions. (It would be nice to remember the batteries of the experienced 152-mm anti-aircraft guns KM-52 ...) By the way! You dumped a bunch of negative for anti-aircraft MLRS, but many disadvantages of unguided anti-aircraft missiles at high altitude are also inherent in anti-aircraft artillery shells. I will give large-caliber anti-aircraft guns ... But, however, such anti-aircraft guns were developed and put into service!
            Everything ! I do not want to waste time anymore ... I was not interested!
            1. -1
              April 26 2019 12: 35
              About the transfusion. Something about "multiply charged" installations and "corrected" missiles you dodged. Yes, and about "Typhoon" "verified" information was clearly gleaned from "reliable Wikipedia" (solid propellant rocket engine or liquid propellant engine - the difference is fundamental even now, especially at that time, did not try to delve into?), And did not answer the fundamental questions. Although yes, this is not interesting.
              1. 0
                April 26 2019 15: 38
                Quote: samaravega
                about "Typhoon" "verified" information was clearly drawn from "reliable Wikipedia"

                laughing But you guessed it! I do not know what Wikipedia "says" ... I use a "source" that I have for over 10 years ... And I will talk about "multiply charged" installations and "corrected" missiles ... a little later ... well, no time me now! request
                1. 0
                  April 29 2019 16: 18
                  Well, check in your "source", after all, the solid propellant rocket engine or the rocket engine was on the "typhoon". Even now, this is a matter of principle, the Makeev Design Bureau has brought rockets with liquid propellant engines to the highest degree of perfection, an attempt to create instead of them rockets with solid propellants first led to the emergence of Project 941 monsters, and then to Bulava, which was long and painfully "taught to fly" and not yet fact that taught. Your proposal to talk about "multiply charged" installations and "corrected" missiles "a little later", and even with so many dots, it just blows "almost intimate". It is not necessary to "talk" a lot, write three or four words: the principle of "correction".
                  1. 0
                    April 30 2019 01: 17
                    If you are addressing me in this tone, then I do not want to "talk" further ... But as for the "typhoon" ... if you "heard" something about this "device, you should also know about the engines. ..I, having received notification about the reply to the comment, this time wanted to answer all the questions, remembering my promise. But you are badly brought up. Based on this, I assume that you are too young for me to let you "talk" to me in such a tone. I am ashamed to "throw beads before ...."!
                    1. 0
                      April 30 2019 16: 04
                      I have not "heard of the device" (at the time of Burgess and other authors who seriously analyzed the rocket heritage of the 3rd Reich, such words did not exist), I know exactly which engine was on the "typhoon", which on the "Wasserfall", and which on "Reichetenochterre". If you tried even a little to understand the level of then (and modern) technologies, you yourself would easily find the answer to this question. As for "age", "tone", "throwing beads", I have to point out that you did not answer any of my questions regarding the technical, technological and tactical aspects of your proposal to use MLRS for air defense (example: the very first: which RS MLRS and how long will it take to get to 10.000 m?). You did not give any specific answers at all and did not provide any specific information. So which of us is closer to the "kindergarten"?
            2. 0
              24 June 2019 21: 29
              You proposed a long-tried and already decommissioned obstruction light system, where the basis was a large-caliber AZP, using an automatic fuse installed according to the tables or PSA on the gun. But you miss why these artillery systems were removed from service. 1. large calculation, 2. low rate of fire, 3. low probability of defeat. 4. low mobility and, as a result, the need for a huge amount of resources for production and a high class of specialists in factories, which is a lot of money. By the way, in Korea, KS-19 with a 100mm AZP was used, on the basis of which KS-19 was removed from service
  7. +3
    April 22 2019 08: 39
    It seems right, remotely subversive ammunition, all kinds of cheaper rockets! But how many do they need to hit the target ???
    The main postulate remains one, the most reliable air defense is "tanks" on airfields .........
    Endlessly defend NO ONE succeeds, endlessly !!!
    1. +3
      April 22 2019 14: 04
      In addition to tanks at airfields, there is another good tool - special. Warhead on long-range anti-aircraft missiles, and EM ammunition for small. winked
      IMHO
      PS The ideal option is to burn carriers before takeoff and decision centers before deciding. It will allow you not to spend energy and money on escalating the conflict, but immediately go on to how it should end! hi
      1. +1
        April 22 2019 14: 29
        All right
        "tanks" - just undercut the entire list of DIFFERENT means and methods of countering the threat of an enemy attack on our "peaceful harvesters"! The list is long .... it was once, I hope now the funds will not be less and the efficiency will not be worse. soldier
  8. 0
    April 22 2019 08: 49
    It is difficult to say how much the cost of a small-sized SAM of the "Nail" type and a guided 57-100 mm projectile will differ, most likely they will be comparable. The rocket requires a less robust design and electronics that do not have to endure enormous barrel pressure and overload when fired.

    In addition, the control of such projectiles is carried out by telecontrol in a laser beam, i.e. you can aim only at the 1 target at a time. In theory, you can probably put several tracking devices, but the order of the number of channels will be comparable or less than that of the air defense system.

    As far as I know, even the Armor with its 30 mm rapid-fire automatons has problems with recoil, and if the 57 mm is still realistic to use on a ground platform, then the 76-100 will create a very significant return for the ground platform. The disadvantages can also be attributed to barrel wear.
    1. 0
      April 22 2019 08: 52
      In any case, I think that such ZPK should be created, moreover, it is necessary to work on the US to right up to the caliber 30 mm, if this is possible (although I am interested in such 30 mm UAS more as weapons for air cannons, for airplanes, for intercepting in-c missiles).

      In the near future, we are waiting for the Defense Air Defense, it’s just what the UAS are doing, let's see what it can do.
    2. +1
      April 22 2019 09: 21
      Andrey, the price of ammunition will be 30-40 percent less, but that's not the point. How much "Armor" should be delivered to catch up with the four 2S38 in terms of fire performance? And there are at least 592 shells, and there is no radar in which you can catch the PRR (and this is guaranteed to happen sometimes).

      Moreover, the cannon artillery does not in any way negate the SAM, or even the "Nails", if you think about it.
      1. +1
        April 22 2019 10: 07
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Andrew, the price of ammunition will be less than 30-40 percent

        eight)))))))))))))))))))))))))))
        Quite the opposite. Two problems, accelerations and dimensions. Which make a guided missile much more expensive than a rocket of equal efficiency
      2. 0
        April 22 2019 11: 30
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        There is no radar in which you can catch the PI (and this is guaranteed to be sometimes

        Yes, you say sho! "The dignity of the anti-aircraft artillery system is the absence of a radar ..." What nonsense? Firstly: anti-aircraft artillery installations have long had radars (have you heard of the so-called DREAMS?); secondly: and very many air defense systems, along with radars, have so-called optical-location stations that allow air defense systems to fire missiles without a radar! Both artillery installations and air defense systems in "radarless" mode have more limited capabilities (that is, this is a "last resort" mode). Ammunition for anti-aircraft guns is also not "rubber"! That is, "the final amount"! There are more chances to create a guided 57-mm missile, which is cheaper and more technologically advanced than a guided 57-mm artillery projectile, than an artillery projectile comparable in terms of cost and manufacturability to a rocket! And this is because the artillery shell for a rifled barrel (!) Has limitations: 1. in length; 2. thicker walls (hence, the internal volume decreases ..., and these are additional problems for the placement of electronics (GOS), rudders, the required number of explosives ...); 3. the projectile experiences large overloads during the "active" shot ... hence the special requirements for electronics, steering devices ... All of the above problems are less relevant (or not relevant) for missiles! Thus, you can get a more technological product; and, therefore, a cheaper one ...
      3. -1
        April 23 2019 22: 39
        Yes! but you forgot about the consumption of artillery shells per unit. aviation, about the operating time before replacing the barrel, about the complexity of the ballistics of artillery shells and that drones will not attack in the first echelon, but drones. But UAVs are not afraid of shell explosions at the heading, this pilot is afraid, which is why barrel artillery in air defense becomes ineffective.
      4. 0
        April 25 2019 09: 55
        I don't understand something in physics, geometry and mathematics of high school, or how can 2C38 solve the problem of meeting a projectile with a target without measuring the range to the target? And how can the 2S38 measure the range to the target without using emitting means? Unlike self-guided missiles, the 2S38 ammunition itself will not be "entrusted" to the target. If it has a laser rangefinder on it, it is somewhat more difficult to detect it than an air defense missile system with a radar, but it is quite possible and instead of a PRR it will simply catch the "VP" missile. Given its fundamentally smaller capabilities than the air defense system, we change the awl for soap.
        1. 0
          24 June 2019 21: 35
          I shot along the tracks and quite successfully with Shilka
    3. +1
      April 22 2019 10: 13
      Andrew! The probability of hitting a target (defined) by Derivation according to open data is P = 0,8 with two shells. Therefore, 3-4 shells (depending on the firing mode apparently) go to one target - from here and consider the economic component.
  9. +1
    April 22 2019 09: 07
    A few thoughts. Firstly, MALDs. It’s somehow difficult for me to imagine that they will be able to imitate all targets and in all ranges - from mm to decameter. Therefore, it is necessary to integrate all detection tools - from ZGRLS and RTR stations to Abdullah with binoculars and a mobile phone. Actually, there is nothing original here, it’s just not feasible for everyone.
    About false targets, radiation simulators, diesel generator simulators (for IR radiation) and false telecode conversations - all this is also known, but it is impossible to calculate their effectiveness, because it directly depends on credibility, i.e. straightness hands applying.
    And now about the main thing. Actually, I was always only behind the AC and in relation to the Shell and Derivation. But consider AU (even with very smart shells) a panacea? In my opinion, this is too much. Gun mounts are saturated the same way. The main problem is single-channel. You shoot at the target, make sure that the target is hit and then move on to a new one. And if the shells are adjustable - then, respectively.
    Those. , AU - just for wandering.
    1. -2
      April 22 2019 10: 03
      Firstly, MALDs. It’s somehow difficult for me to imagine that they will be able to imitate all targets and in all ranges - from mm to decameter.

      Modern can in a wide range and it is constantly expanding. The signal is generated by the active method with a broadband transmitter, and not with a false target design.
      and note that the picture on the decameter and mm radars for a group of targets will not be the same — on a decameter there may be one target, and on a mm — a dozen, comparing them will not be as simple as it seems.
      and have you seen a lot of air defense systems mm range, by the way?
      1. +1
        April 22 2019 10: 27
        I'm sorry, what ? Those. Does the transmitter generate a signal in the meter and decameter ranges (in addition to 3, 6, 9-10, 35 cm)? I heard that this requires more than cumbersome equipment, which not every aircraft will fit. And how does it form a signal in the TV and TPV range?
        And exactly - if MALD imitates an airplane, and this is its first task, then this unevenness will be the first sign that this is a false target.
        SAM range mm I do not know, by the way, and see, but on the Shell, Nyaz, there is a mm radar
        1. 0
          April 22 2019 10: 42
          there is a low-power transmitter.
          it does not need bulky antennas.
          1. 0
            April 22 2019 10: 48
            It is for signal generation in the range of 1.7 meters (not to mention decameters) that the corresponding antenna dimensions are needed
            1. 0
              April 22 2019 11: 00
              ordinary pin, for example.
              in the decameter and even hectameter range there is conventional broadcasting, and in the meter range there is television.
              I don’t know what kind of antennas are there, but complex antennas are clearly optional.
              Moreover, your usual receiver, if it covers from the DV range to the meter (that is, you can listen to TV channels on it), and there are plenty of such ones, including cheap Chinese ones, it works in a very wide range with the simplest whip antenna, or even with ordinary magnetic.
              https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Радиоволны#Диапазоны_радиочастот_и_длин_радиоволн
              1. 0
                April 22 2019 11: 32
                We kind of talked about the radar - that you need to create a signal in this range. So you can’t get off with one pin.
                1. 0
                  April 22 2019 12: 01
                  on MALD is not a radar, but a conventional transmitter.
                  it gives a false signal in accordance with the chosen target for a given range.
                  1. 0
                    April 22 2019 12: 38
                    Quote: Avior
                    on MALD is not a radar, but a conventional transmitter.
                    it gives a false signal in accordance with the chosen target for a given range.

                    MALD is irradiated with several radars at once in different ranges. What will this transmitter do?
                    1. +2
                      April 22 2019 12: 50
                      He won’t do anything. Because in this range he cannot form any signal - there is no forming. And not a single leaflet about the Mulds says anything about working in the meter range. It’s just that an owl is pulled over a globe - it’s said in all, that means in a meter too.
                      1. -1
                        April 22 2019 13: 53
                        I actually didn’t say anywhere that it works in the meter range, read carefully what is written above.
                    2. -1
                      April 22 2019 13: 44
                      what it does.
                      for each signal defined as a radar signal forms its own response.
                      Given the intricacies of EPR at a given frequency.
                      I have to say right away - I did not find in any prospectus or any serious source of real numbers in the range in which the simulator transmitter works.
                      simple broadband transmitter.
                      and the antenna there is clearly not directional, and its dimensions need not be large at all, a conventional broadcasting receiver operates in a very wide frequency range for a conventional whip antenna, but again I have not seen drawings and diagrams.
                      maybe sivuch, will give such a link, I will be grateful.
                      As well as I did not see that there is a radar capable of working in all ranges at the same time and reliably analyze the falsity of targets.
                      And I do not quite understand why he is arguing.
                      Well, there will be a mark of targets - combat aircraft in the dm range, and in the meter it will be distorted (there will still be some kind, the resolution there is low and the mark will be immediately from the group of targets).
                      That is, a combat aircraft flying close to simulators will be perceived as one target.
                      And in dm, as a few with identical parameters.
                      And what to shoot at targets or not?
                      Especially given that the detection of radar targets is probabilistic.
                      And, in fact, first of all I wrote that the signal-response is formed by the electronics, and not by some constructive elements of the target itself.
                      1. 0
                        April 22 2019 13: 52
                        Quote: Avior
                        what it does.
                        for each signal defined as a radar signal forms its own response.

                        And how can he simultaneously transmit response signals in different ranges?
                      2. 0
                        April 22 2019 14: 03
                        Broadband transmitter, as far as can be read in the descriptions.
                        at Damantsev winked it looks like this.
                        MALD-J cruise missiles are made in a compact angular fuselage with a length of just over 2 m from composite materials. There is a radio-transparent fairing, under which a passive antenna of the RER complex and a multi-frequency radiator of reflected imitating electromagnetic waves of millimeter, centimeter, decimeter and meter ranges with a powerful amplifier are installed. Before modeling a certain frequency and power of the emitter, which correspond to the type of the enemy radar that is irradiating and the set EPR level for simulating “MALD-J”, the onboard antennas of the RER of the bait rocket identify and store the parameters of the irradiating signal, after which the data are transmitted to the generating device. As a result, target markers corresponding to the EPR of a pre-selected aircraft appear on enemy radar indicators

                        https://topwar.ru/98114-mald-j-slegka-poumnevshiy-potomok-linzy-lyuneberga-takticheskie-ogranicheniya-raskruchennoy-rakety-primanki.html
                        in different sources, the description does not always exactly match, as I understand it, those who know the truth do not advertise it at every step.
                      3. +3
                        April 22 2019 14: 24
                        (very softly) I hope you understand that Damantsev is never a proof?
                        Now, if he brought a link from where he got it, one could talk about something.
                        In general, what MALD does is simply called an imitating interference, in this case in the m-band. It is enough to see which aircraft of the US Air Force and Navy can create it and which cannot.
                        And, if you remember, Sky-M just consists of several radars, including meter. Ideally, the ACS of the KP air defense should receive information from several simultaneously working sources (if possible, not only from the radar / radar), compare them and draw unambiguous conclusions about what is an airplane, what is a missile defense, and what is a false target. If the meter-high Sky sees one target, and the decimeter caste - several, then this one target is the plane. And if the latter is still conducting radio communications and turning on its radar, then everything is clear to the court.
                      4. -1
                        April 22 2019 16: 21
                        I put a smiley there. winked
                        in fact, for all the shortcomings of Damantsev, he was not noticed in direct imagination about the data presented.
                        But, in principle, you can give a different description of MALD, if you want.
                        And as for the meter-decimeter meter, they will have a different picture due to a very different resolution and purpose.
                        and even if the comparison (and I don’t know about this) is there, then what should I do if they do not match? don't shoot at the target?
                      5. 0
                        April 22 2019 16: 58
                        The answer should be formulated differently - to shoot (in the sense - air defense system DB / SD) at a target that is defined as an airplane.
                2. 0
                  April 22 2019 12: 20
                  massive and large meter radars, for example, are needed, as I understand it, to form a narrow radiation pattern.
                  for MALD this is not required.
  10. -2
    April 22 2019 09: 58
    In any case, the signature of the false target and the real aircraft weapons (TSA) will be different.

    the development of missiles - false targets will sooner or later lead to the indistinguishability of their signatures with those of real warheads or TSAs

    already led, for modern false targets like MALD or Nulka there are broadband returners, the EPR is generated electronically and the signal from the radar is re-emitted by the broadband transmitter in accordance with the real EPR of the target chosen for simulation — the targets for simulation can be selected from a large list.
    In addition, MALD also has a jammer, and in modern versions they also integrate an intelligence system with communication with the carrier.
    It is unlikely that someone will primitively try to oversaturate the air defense, they will rather attack in a complex, with jammers and anti-radar missiles, which have become very sophisticated, you cannot fool them with a microwave, and besides, the false radar simulators are not easy - the modern version of HARM is no longer purely passive, it has a millimeter GOS appeared, with the help of which a "portrait" of a site in the radio range is drawn.
    Multiple use of false targets by attackers will not make it possible to combat anti-radar missiles by changing positions or turning off the radar.
    Air defense based on cannons with programmed shells is only near air defense, besides, it must be understood that target damage is always probabilistic in nature even for homing ammunition, and even more so for shells, and each hit will weaken air defense.
    And I would not have high hopes to pin on passive optoelectronic guidance, at a distance of 5 km, as in the article, and at long ranges, have long existed as a system for detecting optical and optoelectronic devices, and the possibility of blinding them, thanks to successes in the field of lasers, they are constantly evolving.
    All this I am writing not to the point that "Katz proposes to surrender", but to the fact that the Air Force will always have much greater opportunities for the concentration of forces and means of attack in comparison with air defense based on ground-based air defense systems.
    Again, the attacking side will choose the time and place of the battle, which also gives it great advantages, including such an important limitation as a radio horizon for ground-based air defense systems.
    Modern reconnaissance means, combined with the use of decoys and modern, sufficiently "smart" ammunition, largely negate the advantages of ground-based air defense systems in terms of camouflage. In addition, modern air defense systems are by no means a cheap pleasure, you can't put out a lot of them.
    Therefore, in my opinion, with fairly active military operations, ground-based air defense systems in the air defense system for the foreseeable future will really play an auxiliary role, and without the air defense component, they are doomed to defeat. A full-fledged air defense requires a strong aviation component, which will not only allow us to expand the depth of defense, but also ensure the concentration of forces in threatened areas, which is more than important for a country that spans vast expanses.
    1. +2
      April 22 2019 10: 27
      Quote: Avior
      have long existed as systems for detecting optical and optoelectronic devices, and the possibilities for blinding them, thanks to advances in the field of lasers, are constantly evolving.

      These systems have a huge problem. Range. And until its decision, as in Beijing in reverse.
      1. 0
        April 22 2019 10: 43
        the article dealt with a distance of about 5 km.
        not such a big problem.
        In addition, the possible use of drones for reconnaissance purposes must be considered.
        1. 0
          April 22 2019 10: 52
          Quote: Avior
          the article dealt with a distance of about 5 km.

          They mixed up something. Even 3 km is too much for modern systems.
          1. 0
            April 22 2019 12: 14
            maybe he started up with the distance, but life on the spot doesn’t work, and besides, no one canceled drones.
            and if a cannon launcher opens fire, at least for a drone, then, as I understand it, it unmasks itself automatically, now built-in cameras or in high-resolution hanging containers are becoming more and more common.
            1. +1
              April 22 2019 12: 24
              Quote: Avior
              maybe he started with the distance, but life on the spot doesn’t

              Look, there is quite a lot on the web about this. Yet these are rather short distances. For example, the French "semi-stationary" SLD 500 LR detects optics at ranges up to 2000 meters

              In addition, they have already begun to defend themselves against such systems. For example, a system of protection against "optics detectors" is on the Javelin launcher

              Quote: Avior
              and if the cannon launcher opens fire, at least on a drone, then, as I understand it, it unmasks itself automatically

              Not necessary. Still, the projectile trajectory is not straight
              1. 0
                April 22 2019 12: 31
                IR radiation when shooting will be required. and the distance to the target must somehow be determined after all, with a laser, for example.
                especially since you indicated
                Still, the projectile trajectory is not straight


                as I understand it, a range of 2 km is indicated against snipers with their sights and binoculars. The air defense complex will have more lenses.
                1. 0
                  April 22 2019 12: 37
                  Quote: Avior
                  IR radiation when shooting will be required.

                  So what? Let it be. It's not scary

                  Quote: Avior
                  and the distance to the target needs to be somehow determined after all

                  What for? External target designation, "meeting point" You can even shoot with a "closed OP"

                  Quote: Avior
                  The air defense complex will have more lenses.

                  Is not a fact. The lenses of thermal imaging sights are very, very large.
              2. 0
                April 22 2019 12: 50
                By the way, regarding the anti-detection Javelin filter
                The filter itself greatly degrades the image quality due to the absorption of part of the light, therefore it is turned off by the arrow before starting the ATGM by pressing the FLTR button again. Only an infrared sight is protected by a filter against anti-sniper systems, the daytime sight does not have such protection and should be closed with a lid and should not be used if there is a threat.

                not so simple
                1. 0
                  April 22 2019 12: 54
                  Quote: Avior
                  not so simple

                  Nevertheless. The Americans played ahead of the curve. All in all, the Chinese announced the possibility of installing a "cat's eye" on their new tank.
    2. 0
      April 22 2019 10: 50
      Detection capabilities of optocoupler systems, of course, are. That's just on the same MALD you can’t cram them
      1. 0
        April 22 2019 12: 16
        to MALD and not necessary.
        There are drones.
        In addition, as I understand it, you still have to use a laser rangefinder or mm radar, otherwise how to determine the distance to the target?
        and such signs clearly unmask.
        1. 0
          April 22 2019 12: 27
          Quote: Avior
          In addition, as I understand it, you still have to use a laser rangefinder or mm radar

          If the target is observed by two or more optoelectronic systems, then do not
          1. 0
            April 22 2019 12: 39
            only if with a large base, especially considering the programmable detonation of a projectile ..
            Do you know such anti-aircraft systems aiming systems?
            1. 0
              April 22 2019 12: 49
              Quote: Avior
              only if with a large base

              With a base that is much larger than the rangefinder in the photo. If the target is visible from two settings, you have a triangle that can be easily solved.
              1. 0
                April 22 2019 13: 11
                theoretically, as I understand it.
                since something I do not know the practical embodiment.
                1. +1
                  April 22 2019 13: 22
                  Quote: Avior
                  since something I do not know the practical embodiment.

                  In the artillery. Since the Great Patriotic War. It is called "conjugate observation".
                  From modern ones, for example, the counter-battery "Penicillin" There, similarly, the coordinates of the "torches" are determined in automatic mode.
    3. 0
      April 22 2019 11: 41
      It seems to me that aviation in air defense is not a panacea - because the one who has more aviation will be right
      those. this is not quite suitable for defense.
      In my opinion, it is necessary to actively develop network technologies, for example, passive sensor networks, so that aviation is in a disadvantageous situation
      1. 0
        April 22 2019 12: 18
        they develop in the form of RTR reconnaissance stations, but aviation has an advantage — ground-based air defense systems are dispersed over many objects, and aviation can attack far from all at once, concentrating forces.
        not to mention that from the Far East there is nothing to help Kaliningrad air defense, and vice versa.
        1. 0
          April 22 2019 12: 20
          Well, aviation from Germany also does not bomb Vladivostok
          1. 0
            April 22 2019 12: 43
            relocated much faster than ground defense.
            Especially with refueling it can act from afar.
            Okay with the Far East, but 200-300 km, or even less, is really enough, the horizon-based objective reality, and even the most expensive and modern air defense systems will not help each other.
            1. 0
              April 22 2019 13: 01
              radio horizon - a problem solved with the help of network technologies
              I don’t know another solution - the air defense range is often too redundant
              and spend a telegraph pole on an airplane, it's kind of a little expensive
              therefore, you need to somehow solve issues either by developing very effective units with a near radius or by increasing mobility.
              For example, an anti-aircraft complex capable of flying 1 km once, flopping down without breaking, and independently deploying on duty.
              1. 0
                April 22 2019 13: 08
                the problem is not only the cost of the rocket, the problem is that the radio horizon dictates the plane.
                went 500 meters down and disappeared. and at low altitudes even less.
                and ground-based air defense for mobility will still lag behind aviation.
                Previously, ground-based air defense had an advantage in camouflage, but with new false targets, reconnaissance drones, new weapons and airborne AFARs with a terrain mapping mode, this advantage is lost before our eyes, in my opinion.
                Without aviation, full air defense will not work
                1. 0
                  April 22 2019 13: 10
                  Quote: Avior
                  Without aviation, full air defense will not work

                  let's not look for the ideal, otherwise we will need air defense battleships laughing and air defense bunkers, and space squadrons of air defense cover, as well as asteroid fields of cover for possible breakthroughs of aviation into a neighboring galaxy
                  it’s better to look for just effective solutions.
    4. +3
      April 22 2019 12: 45
      Quote: Avior
      and the fact that the Air Force will always have much greater opportunities for concentration of forces and means of attack in comparison with air defense based on ground-based air defense systems.
      Yes, and therefore it is necessary that as soon as the Air Force concentrated forces somewhere, then the head of 200 kilotons would fly in there. For it’s not necessary to concentrate.
      1. 0
        April 22 2019 13: 06
        Allies made raids on Europe, gathering from dozens of dozens of airfields, concentrating where and when they wanted to be in the air.
      2. 0
        April 22 2019 13: 09
        The air force can concentrate forces in the air before an attack.
        1. 0
          April 22 2019 19: 51
          It was for such, especially smart, the S-200 had a special warhead. New missiles also seem to have one.
          1. -2
            April 23 2019 01: 23
            Quote: bk0010
            It was for such, especially smart, the S-200 had a special warhead. New missiles also seem to have one.

            if Russia even tries to pretend nuclear weapons, then the alliance will strike from all that is, even given the advanced intelligence it can do it proactively, so do not be dashing while it’s quiet stop
  11. 0
    April 22 2019 10: 18
    Russia is a world leader in technologies for creating such tools. At least, while some are building experimental models with our old 57-mm cannon, we have an almost ready combat vehicle.

    eight))))))
    76mm ZAC DRACO developed by OTO Melara


    Appeared in gland much earlier than "Derivation". It has much higher characteristics due to the presence of the DART sub-caliber guided projectiles in the ammo.

    ZAK did not go into the series. Very expensive, experiencing great financial problems in Italy was not affordable.
  12. +1
    April 22 2019 10: 32

    Watch from 32 seconds. Impressive, the Iranians are great, it would be nice to have such in Syria. Maybe the author is really right about something.
    1. 0
      April 22 2019 11: 56
      Quote: MoJloT
      The Iranians are great, not bad in Syria. Maybe the author is really in something right.

      To combat reconnaissance drones come down ... Especially in the presence of guided (adjustable) projectiles. The rest is continuous restrictions ..
  13. 0
    April 22 2019 11: 21
    [quote = Avior] [quote]
    All this I am writing not to the point that "Katz proposes to surrender", but to the fact that the Air Force will always have much greater opportunities for the concentration of forces and means of attack in comparison with air defense based on ground-based air defense systems.
    Again, the attacking side will choose the time and place of the battle, which also gives it great advantages, including such an important limitation as a radio horizon for ground-based air defense systems.
    . [/ Quote]
    This has always been the case, however, it’s not even about how to deal effectively with simulators, but with high fire performance to work in the near zone with cheap ammunition for all types of targets. The guided projectile is comparable in price to SAM, and in the caliber 57 mm does not make sense. But a controlled blast is the most. Against barrage of ammunition, drones, missiles, and cross-country missiles in the near zone, there is a 30 mm assault rifle at the back, nails and so on.
    1. +1
      April 22 2019 12: 00
      Here you understand what the ficus picus is ... There is a high-speed, highly maneuverable low-altitude target. Knock her down? Yes Easy. It is only necessary to create a fragmentation field of sufficient density and sufficient size on its way. With the help of shells with a remote fuse.
      And here a huge problem appears ... Okay, if this "Derivation" is done in the "first line" of the infantry. It will be torn over the heads of the enemy. And if, as in the article, we are talking about covering rear objects?
      1. +1
        April 22 2019 12: 48
        We compare the consequences of "flying" the target with a scree of fragments. The choice is obvious. This is less of a problem than destruction at the point of impact of a downed target.
        1. 0
          April 22 2019 13: 01
          Quote: bk0010
          We compare the consequences of "flying" the target with a scree of fragments.

          It will often be less painful to let the target fly.

          Quote: bk0010
          This is less of a problem than destruction at the point of impact of a downed target.

          No, this is a much bigger problem. In fact, the creation of such a fragmentation field at low altitude is similar to artillery shelling over squares, and at air breaks, that is, even in a trench, this can be deadly.
          1. 0
            April 22 2019 20: 09
            The Vietnamese simply donned cork hats with brim. From ball bombs. Our infantry may also close with something like that.
            My mother caught her sister in the yard during the barrage of anti-aircraft guns, putting a night pot on her head. It helped, by the way.
            1. 0
              April 22 2019 21: 03
              Quote: meandr51
              The Vietnamese simply donned cork hats with brim. From ball bombs. Our infantry may also close with something like that.
              My mother caught her sister in the yard during the barrage of anti-aircraft guns, putting a night pot on her head. It helped, by the way.

              Height.
              Tears at high altitude are one thing when fragments, having lost energy, simply fall under the influence of the law of universal gravitation. And a completely different thing - air gap at low altitude
      2. 0
        April 22 2019 12: 52
        It is only necessary to create a fragmentation field of sufficient density and sufficient size on its way.

        Moreover, this time, that is, against a single goal - this is one thing, but if there are several?
        1. -1
          April 22 2019 13: 02
          Quote: Avior
          It is only necessary to create a fragmentation field of sufficient density and sufficient size on its way.

          Moreover, this time, that is, against a single goal - this is one thing, but if there are several?

          Several fragmentation fields. Or one bigger one.
          1. 0
            April 22 2019 13: 13
            I understand, but the time of shelling a target is large enough, there is no guarantee that the effect will be on the first try, it is necessary to evaluate and shoot again, and it will be difficult to apply against several targets purely in time.
            1. 0
              April 22 2019 13: 24
              Quote: Avior
              and against several goals it will be difficult to apply purely in time.

              ACS will allow you to work simultaneously on several goals. This is not a big problem.
              1. -1
                April 22 2019 17: 55
                rather, we need a common computer center focusing on particularly threatening (in his opinion) goals, the fire of several artillery systems
                1. 0
                  April 22 2019 18: 06
                  Here we are talking about another.
                  Some minusers are not quite aware that the shells have flying time. And there is no problem in shelling one target, and while shells fly, shelling the second. Then immediately transfer the fire to the first if necessary. ACS allows this to be carried out.

                  Quote: prodi
                  need a common computing center

                  Definitely. In an air defense system, the "every man for himself" method is a losing one by default. Therefore, the settings can operate autonomously only in case of force majeure
    2. +1
      April 22 2019 12: 27
      I think the likelihood of being hit by unguided ammunition is much lower than homing.
      and with each ammunition breaking through, the air defense will weaken.
      In addition, the point is that it is unlikely that the attackers will bet on the depletion of the air defense ammunition, most likely on electronic warfare and overloading target guidance channels. And in this regard, cannon air defense is much worse than missile defense, in my opinion.
      A passive optoelectronic guidance still requires active determination of range, laser or mm radar.
      Unmasking sign.
      Moreover, modern AFAR radars also work in the terrain mapping mode, if they approximately know the location area, they will find it without radiation.
  14. +2
    April 22 2019 11: 33
    I'm sorry, maybe I will say sharply
    but what is this stupid derivation advertisement
    This is such a correct train of thought that I want to jump from and clap my hands with joy for the joy of our ground forces. It remains only to wait for the shell with a programmable detonation and the final refinement of the machine according to the test results.

    about the effectiveness of fire not a word
    about the fact that the theoretical rate of fire is never equal to the number of hit high-speed targets - not a word
    about the fact that you need to stick these derivations like mushrooms because of the small radius not a word
    about the fact that there is not even an adequate projectile, it is said, like he is "on the way"
    about the fact that the time of mobilization and reaction to the threat is a big question
    and many more questions.
    Personally, I just got tired of these stupid troll advertisers.
    The problem of oversaturation with the number of air defense targets needs to be addressed radically,
    Earlier in the USSR they tried to rely on volumetric explosions, now technologies allow you to act more subtly - for example, to extinguish targets, disable them, reset GPS work, in the end, there are cluster munitions
    But there is no way to put stupid derivations in batches.
    I agree that derivation is not a bad argument against UAVs and future flocks of drones
    but such attempts to drag her anywhere just enrage.
    And this wrecking occurs on taxpayer taxes.
    1. 0
      April 22 2019 14: 29
      but what is this stupid derivation advertisement
      such a normal advertisement, many are conducted on it lol
      UAV and future flocks of drones
      And against the simplest drones from adequate distances, the "derivation" simply does not have enough detection means. To put on it more radar, lidar and refuel guided projectiles? So this "derivation" of gold will come out, almost more expensive than the "shell", but it can work well against planes.
      1. +1
        April 22 2019 15: 34
        It seems to me that against such massive attacks it is useful to simply spray clouds for volumetric explosions, as artillery has been using for a long time.
        No need to aim or radar especially unmask.
        stupidly a balloon with fuel flew up, burst, a button was pressed and the whole swarm with hundreds of targets simply burned out. not expensive and efficient.
        1. 0
          April 23 2019 01: 28
          sheathing rockets and not so able to withstand ...
          1. 0
            April 23 2019 09: 21
            you forget which shock wave is generated
            1. 0
              April 23 2019 14: 08
              missiles capable of overcoming the sound barrier and do not withstand that.
              1. 0
                April 23 2019 14: 10
                Well, yes, they can stand it in the forehead.
                And if you are not nailing a hat, but hammering in the side with a hammer, or at least you just won’t get it very accurately? The nail will bend.
                It is enough to literally slightly damage a rocket or gliding bomb so that it no longer hits.
                1 turning plane is broken or jammed and already kirdyk.
        2. 0
          April 25 2019 10: 07
          Volumetric air explosion is practically impossible by physical principles. Weather conditions (fog, rain, air temperature and, especially, wind) impose very serious restrictions on the use of volumetric explosion ammunition on the ground. Can you find a calm area at least 100 m high? Then what volume explosion are we talking about?
  15. 0
    April 22 2019 12: 02
    Quote: yehat
    I agree that derivation is not a bad argument against UAVs and future flocks of drones
    but such attempts to drag her anywhere just enrage.

    Not "anywhere", but into the "completed / cover" echelon of the near zone. And yet, yes, in our air defense "Derivation" does not fight alone against packs of Kharms, etc., but as part of other means.
    Quote: yehat
    about the effectiveness of fire not a word
    about the fact that the theoretical rate of fire is never equal to the number of hit high-speed targets - not a word

    Duc and where is it differently ?? Maybe "they have" one shell, one target ??
    1. 0
      April 22 2019 12: 21
      without proof of the effectiveness of firing, it makes no sense to talk at all.
  16. 3vs
    +1
    April 22 2019 12: 20
    "Let's say we have an attacking group of 22 F-15E aircraft."
    This is, after all, not a box of matches!
    Satellite reconnaissance, undercover reconnaissance, Voronezh station should somehow inform about takeoff
    such an armada ?!
    It will remain to launch zircons with a nuclear / thermonuclear / neutron / electromagnetic pulse / vacuum
    warhead with an explosion in the center of this swarm of airplanes ...
    The survivors to finish off the C500 / C400 / C300 / C350 ...
    1. +1
      April 22 2019 12: 55
      yeah. for each takeoff of a pair of F15 squadrons, a nuclear war must be launched.
      and how will zircons with vacuum filling get to the center of this swarm? what
      1. 3vs
        0
        April 22 2019 13: 06
        "for every takeoff of a pair of F15 squadrons, a nuclear war must be started."
        If in the direction of our borders, but with full ammunition, it is better to overdo it ...

        "How will the zircons with vacuum filling get into the center of this swarm?"
        This is the task of scientists and designers, my business is to offer! Yes
        1. +1
          April 22 2019 13: 21
          Nitsche ce "perebdet" - to start a nuclear war.
          This is the task of scientists and designers, my business is to offer! yes

          then it is better to offer gluon space curvature transformers for this purpose.
          I myself don’t know what it is, but it’s the business of scientists, I’ve done my job, I suggested, now it's up to them laughing
          1. 3vs
            0
            April 22 2019 13: 28
            No, you, of course, are cooler, what to speak ... hi
            But, the solution to the task of destroying a swarm of airplanes / drones is to create or burn out electronics
            electromagnetic pulse or shock wave inside a swarm, firing rockets at hundreds / thousands of real / false objects is not an option.
            1. 0
              April 25 2019 10: 17
              Learn physics! "Burning out" electronics with an electromagnetic pulse is difficult, expensive, and the "burner" is easily detected. Any "drone" is controlled! Remotely! That is, it receives signals! To "score" these signals or even recode is a real option. This is how the Iranians fought off the "drones" in Khmeimim, and this is how the Iranians "planted" the American "drone". The "drones" flying according to the program laid down on the base are scouts of stationary objects, there are few of them, they are used for camouflage and / or fire damage. An attack "drone" or a tactical reconnaissance aircraft flying according to the program is real, but absolutely ineffective. its destiny is only stationary targets, the "real time scale" will have to be forgotten.
          2. 0
            April 22 2019 20: 17
            If undermining, say, 1 ct above its territory, this is not a nuclear explosive, but just a violation of the nuclear weapons test agreement. Over enemy territory, EMP can be undermined.
            1. 0
              April 23 2019 08: 14
              and how can one undermine momentum?
              what
              1. 3vs
                0
                April 23 2019 14: 51
                This refers to something like this:
                "The use of explosive generators simulating on a limited scale the impulse of a nuclear explosion. By the nature of the impact, a pulsed electromagnetic field is close to a lightning discharge with a duration of 100 - 180 ns and a pulse power of up to 40 MW."

                "Die all inanimate ... or how to destroy electronics"
                technowars.defence.ru/article/10092/
            2. 0
              April 25 2019 10: 19
              Look at the radius of the shock wave with an explosion power of 1ct and find the arguments to persuade the enemy to collect his IOS in such a dense flock at the same time.
              1. 3vs
                0
                April 25 2019 12: 20
                Well, so suggest your option of dealing with a massive air raid / hundreds and hundreds of winged
                rockets, how to land all this economy?
                1. 0
                  April 25 2019 21: 18
                  In the history of wars, no air defense by itself has ever been able to ensure the complete invulnerability of the covered object. The topic touched upon by the author is very interesting, and his position is interesting, but he forgets two fundamental points: 1. The striker (i.e., the air force) owns the initiative, he determines where, when and how much air force assets to use, which ones to put in front of them targets, etc., using intelligence on the defenders' air defense. that is why no air defense system will ever be able to fully repel a massive or sudden air strike. 2. The task of air defense is not to repel 100% an air strike, which usually pursues several goals, but to minimize damage from it, force the enemy to abandon the main goal and, if possible, inflict the maximum possible losses of enemy aircraft ("discourage" to continue the bombardment). The author gives an interesting example when the Iraqi KS-19 shot down a Tornado of the British Air Force. But the main thing in this episode is that after the fire defeat of one aircraft, the rest of the Tornadoes of this squadron (ie 11 aircraft) dropped their external suspension (2 UABs for each), turned around, descended and returned to the airfield. I am not saying how much the Tornado costs, 22 UABs and the departure of 12 expensive cars. The main thing: they didn't even think to break through to the goal. Air defense achieved its goal by 100%, shooting down one aircraft out of 12. Air defense also achieved their goals in the Second World War, local wars, etc. In the Red Army, air defense officers were awarded orders not so much for the downed Luftwaffe aircraft, but for the saved objects. For air defense, the main thing is not to "land" hundreds of targets, but to preserve the object or minimize damage. And here the issue must be considered as a whole: camouflage, electronic warfare, decoys, dispersal, engineering support and fire destruction as one of the elements of the system. A 100% invulnerable air defense, even with fighters and AWACS aircraft, even without them, it is impossible to create, which is demonstrated even by the bombing of Berlin by the DB-3 KBF crews, even the Dullitt raid on Japan, even the Syrian attacks on Israeli troops in 1982 and the Serbs on the separatists in the conditions of complete NATO air supremacy.
    2. 0
      April 23 2019 14: 36
      chatting about paradise is not yet to commit suicide, if Israel did not even think to use ...
  17. +1
    April 22 2019 12: 38
    Quote: yehat
    without proof of the effectiveness of firing, it makes no sense to talk at all.

    What kind of evidence is required? If the wreckage of Kharmov, then they are not there yet (fortunately).
    In terms of the accuracy of the projectile output to the anticipated meeting point and detonation in it, the situation is similar to the existing passive missile defense systems of short-range radius. The mass of explosives and debris is sufficient to destroy CD, light and medium UAVs, and other air-to-ground missiles. Shells and mines are a big question.
    For that matter, there is no evidence of the effectiveness of the AGM-88 against the same Torah-M2. So there’s nothing to talk about either?
    1. 0
      April 22 2019 16: 21
      well, at least statistics on the defeat of planning bombs
  18. 0
    April 22 2019 12: 41
    Competently. For some reason, everyone always forgets that war is a confrontation not only of armies, but also of economies. If you answer an expensive rocket with an expensive rocket, the most monetary economy will win - not us. It is necessary to answer asymmetrically, for example, the battles forced the United States to abandon high-precision weapons - it’s expensive - to wet a controlled bomb with a bomb. So here - they hang themselves with axes to crush artillery batteries. And with programmable ammunition - they will soon be fighting with clubs, the axes are not endless.
    1. 0
      April 22 2019 13: 40
      Quote: Cowbra
      If you answer an expensive rocket with an expensive rocket, the most monetary economy will win - not us.

      This is not a question of money - if a modern rocket is too expensive to manufacture, then we are behind the technology rival.
      1. +1
        April 22 2019 14: 51
        This is a matter of money. The rival’s missiles are even more expensive - who is behind ?! The shell is always cheaper, moreover. super-expensive Zumvolts, for example, were built in order to expensively shoot the coast with expensive Zumvolt, instead of using relatively cheap arly berks to hammer the coast with expensive Tomahawks. The platform itself is more expensive, and consumables, shells for a railgun - initially relied on the price of metal at all, they shoot a pier saying any blank cut directly on board from a cast iron ingot - and with a tomahawk effect due to speed.
        So here - with cheap shells to shoot down expensive missiles - it is as destructive for the enemy as if he himself was bombarded. The economic effect - not in favor of the attacker - he loses the war. It is economically, to him Khan.
        1. +1
          April 22 2019 15: 33
          The main share in the price of weapons is technology, the experience of specialists, and the costs of building production.
          The war began, but money was invested and the plant was built, specialists will work for a minimum wage, they work for a common victory. Only resources, rare materials, etc. remain. The economy of war is different from the economy of the world, and if we are not behind technology, the price of victory is only human lives, competent management and materials.
    2. 0
      April 22 2019 15: 16
      Quote: Cowbra
      If you answer an expensive rocket with an expensive rocket, the most monetary economy will win

      And if you answer an expensive rocket with several shells that are more expensive than rockets? What economy will win in this case?

      Quote: Cowbra
      So here - they hang themselves with axes to crush artillery batteries.

      An anti-aircraft artillery battery with all the "attachment" providing sufficient accuracy and effectiveness of fire will be much more expensive than an anti-aircraft missile battery, do not be mistaken in this regard.
      Here the same principle "cheap ammunition - expensive weapon" works. And the use of UAS will make the ammunition expensive too. Rather, very expensive relative to a rocket of similar efficiency.

      And I'm afraid that such a battery will far outstrip the cost of "axes", which will be enough to destroy it. So this is not an indicator.
      1. 0
        April 22 2019 20: 39
        But how? Ammunition is in every way cheaper - minus homing and control in it, minus the engine - there remains only a warhead and fuse, and a simple one - it is programmed to detonate at a certain distance, at a missile - to detonate IF a target is within reach, then the missile can explode. Ammunition is all cheaper. and not at times, but by orders of magnitude.
        Platform. Apparently, the target detection system is identical, the guidance system is practically the same, but there is no missile control system in flight - the projectile is programmed to detonate at a distance from the ICS, in the breech or in the barrel, and there are already such models.
        Further - well, that's why I cited Arlie Burke and Sumvolt as an example? The platform is more expensive, the consumable is cheaper, and the result is cheaper application. Not convinced? Then the second FACT - battleships for tripods in operation cost more than aircraft carriers, but according to the results of "Storm in a Glass" they found out that it is cheaper to hammer the coast with shelling from battleships than bombardments from aircraft carriers, and therefore battleships did not write off for so long - this was not my idea, really ...
        1. 0
          April 22 2019 21: 00
          Quote: Cowbra
          But how? Ammunition is all cheaper

          Well..
          Ammunition is cheaper, installation is more expensive. And vice versa. while maintaining the same efficiency.
          This is a radar for determining wind parameters, this is a weather station, this is a radar for determining the deviation of the initial speed for each gun. Well, or a laser device for a similar purpose. It is an ASUNO on each gun, with communication means for data exchange, these are high-precision systems of self-binding and self-orientation on each gun. If you need to shoot on the go, there are also high-precision stabilization systems. In short, you can list for a very long time.
          1. 0
            April 22 2019 21: 19
            I'm not an anti-aircraft gunner, I judge easier. this type of anti-tank and anti-material rifle. The analogy, IMHO, is very suitable, in an ATGM - a shot is more expensive, and in a sniper - a platform, competent to prepare - is expensive and long. But then he works on goals - cheaper.
            1. 0
              April 22 2019 21: 23
              Quote: Cowbra
              But then he works on goals - cheaper.

              Not much. After all, every shot eats a resource of a very expensive barrel.

              And yes. With regular use it will be cheaper. But what is the likelihood of regular use?
              1. 0
                April 22 2019 21: 37
                Now I understand. but again - an option like this - to put a non-firing expensive platform, in the sense. probably she doesn’t need to shoot, with cheap shots and a bunch of them, or not shooting a cheap platform with gold shells. 3-5-10 pieces a threshold, which in any case will be sold, overloaded with goals?
                N-yes, here you are right, it is necessary to consider, I think, there is someone. But potentially. Even so, it’s just one trained sniper who will press in case of something more. than the money of his training purchased ATGMs, yes I strongly suspect. that for money - training + weapons will be somewhere around one to five ATGMs, but in terms of effect ... The sniper will win.
                Just as I understand it. and with art. And by the way, the author rightly said, even WITHOUT remote detonation - they pose a danger, and a considerable one. Setting the fuse at a distance, adjusting the target - we wait when it flies up to this distance, open fire - "steel curtain", and the Tomahawk, which stands like the whole battery along with the radar - does oops
                1. +1
                  April 22 2019 22: 02
                  Quote: Cowbra
                  in which case they’ll sell, overload with goals?

                  We are discussing an option with equal efficiency. Including in terms of resistance to "target overload" I am not sure that the ZAK will be much cheaper than the air defense system. Although here it is necessary to count ...

                  And in general, there are still a lot of questions to ZAK, at the moment they have not caught up with the SAM, although this is theoretically possible. As for me, in fact, the horse did not roll in this area
                  1. 0
                    April 22 2019 23: 53
                    We are discussing an option with the same effectiveness. Including in terms of resistance to "overload with goals

                    ... and I'll tell you again. that with "target overload" the one who has a LOT of shots - tell yourself. But with efficiency, it must be considered. Arta is clearly and much less hits, but cheaper
    3. 0
      April 25 2019 10: 27
      Please clarify: "programmable" ammunition - what is it? If there is a program in it, then how can they shoot at a maneuvering target? If there is a radio fuse in it, then this is an ammunition with a radio fuse. If it explodes at a certain height, then it is an ammunition with a static fuse. If it explodes after a certain time, instead of expensive electronics with the program, a remote tube has been used for a hundred years. And if this is a control system, as on a missile defense system, then there are two options: 1. Homing, then the projectile becomes, due to more stringent mass-dimensional restrictions and higher acceleration when fired, more expensive than a missile defense system. 2. Guidance from the ground, then the gun mount sharply rises in price and goes into a completely different category.
      1. 0
        April 25 2019 11: 03
        The distance tube must be installed. Most often now, a programmable fuse is understood as an ammunition that is programmed right in the barrel or in the breech to detonate at a certain distance based on data from a rangefinder, for example, this topic has been promoted for a long time, most often it is called a programmable or "smart" projectile. In fact, the same tube, but the rate of fire is noticeably increased
        1. 0
          April 25 2019 22: 45
          Undermining at a certain distance of a 57-mm projectile, in a fragmentation version, having an explosive weight of about 200g, which will inevitably decrease with the use of a programmable fuse, and a weak fragmentation effect is unlikely to increase the effectiveness of the indicated ammunition. To hit an air target from such a gun will require a direct hit, which is difficult to achieve with the current rate of fire and guidance systems. Example: the death of the MRK "Monsoon": during the practice firing, the RM-15 target missile (P-15 anti-ship missile system, subsonic, rather large, about 4 tons, not maneuvering) was aimed at it. The MRK fired at it from the AK-725 installation (2 barrels 57 mm, water-cooled, radar guidance), did not achieve a direct hit, as a result, the missile hit the MRK in the wheelhouse, although it had no warhead, the MRK sank. The AK-725 has a rate of fire of 200 v / m per barrel (i.e. 400 v / m for the installation) and tape feed (for each barrel a tape for 550 rounds) versus 120 v / m for the barrel of the S-60 and cassette feed , water cooling (length of continuous burst per barrel 100 v) against the air in the C-60, ammunition similar to the C-60, and radar guidance, but could not get into the non-maneuvering missile launcher, three times the size of the "tomahawk". What efficiency can we expect from Derivation?
  19. +1
    April 22 2019 12: 52
    Why not do pro and air defense based on silt 76? Such a flying fortress could quickly strengthen the defense at the right point, or close the gaps in the broken section of the front.
    1. 0
      April 22 2019 14: 46
      It was, not the air defense systems, but the astro-fighters that they proposed to do on the basis of as many transporters as they would carry more missiles and detection systems. It died out mainly because they still lose stationary by detection - and they can invisibly enter the affected area invisibly - of the khan of a flying transport fighter.
      1. 0
        April 22 2019 15: 42
        Quote: Cowbra
        and an invisible person can enter the affected area invisibly

        Entering the affected area and shooting down are two different things. Such a flying pro-complex should be guaranteed to destroy such threats. And besides, it will be a shield for fighters nearby.
  20. 0
    April 22 2019 13: 19
    Well, EW Mercury at the last frontier with a laser gun.
    1. 0
      April 22 2019 15: 16
      Quote: Tektor
      EW Mercury at the last frontier

      She will give absolutely nothing.
  21. +1
    April 22 2019 13: 38
    Thank you for the article!
  22. +3
    April 22 2019 14: 02
    Amateur questions. :-)
    Interesting. And why can attack aircraft use false targets, but there is no defense?
    For example, false radars? A network of weak and cheap, but scattered across an area and a large number of radars? Inflatable air defense systems? Before the attack, it is easier to scatter a bunch of false targets in the desert than to do it in battle. The same false targets can be launched using SAM missiles, simulating fighters. I think that it will be more difficult for aircraft computers to deal with target selection than air defense systems. And their ammunition will end earlier.
    What about disguise? On TV often show ships on exercises that entangle themselves in some kind of cloud of shiny tinsel? Well and electronic warfare, where are we ahead of the rest?
  23. +1
    April 22 2019 14: 17
    The author can justify why guided missiles should be cheaper than missiles of a similar caliber and similar characteristics?
    Strong loads on the control unit of the projectile during firing give limitations on the strength of the entire design of the projectile, on the mass of the explosive and its overall effectiveness, as a result .... and all for the sake of which, for the sake of saving some kilogram of gunpowder of a metal charge!?!?
    Then they wrote that hail rockets are cheaper than firing 122 mm guns. Moreover, taking into account guided weapons, the difference not in favor of shells will be even greater.
  24. 5-9
    0
    April 22 2019 14: 19
    Again, on the one hand, a horde of fifty airplanes gathers (so much at the same time a country like France or Germany is not a fact that it can even organize at all), and on the other hand, don’t understand what a lone air defense system without IA. Yes, the concentration base of these 50 aircraft is an excellent target for nuclear Iskander or Caliber.
    Well, GBU-53 is a very old 100-130 kg unit with a 50-kg warhead.
    The hellish raids of 60 and 100 heavy missiles with 340-450 kg warheads somehow did not impress. And how many of us there OFAB-250/270 and 500 poured out on some partisans? Who can these bonoboch earn? SAM itself? And if she is cunning and meanly does not begin to stream immediately? And then rrrraz ... and on carriers?
    Yes, and taking into account the size of the SDB, I have doubts about the effectiveness of the 57 mm on them. Why would a cadavre from S-60 and normal guidance be much cheaper than Shell? What is its radius? And the S-60?

    How many times does the United States write aircraft from steel? 30 times? So we have> 30 regiments only S-400/300. plus everything else + IA. Of course, aviation can be concentrated, but see about Iskander.

    Again an example from life "some kind of another Iraq" was going to fight against the United States - what should he do? Yes, no way, even a thousand S-60 with a fence, even a S-500.
    1. 0
      April 22 2019 20: 24
      Quote: 5-9
      Again, on the one hand, a horde of fifty planes is going to (so much at the same time, a country like France or Germany is not a fact that they can organize at all), but on the other hand, don’t understand how lonely SAMs without AI. ...


      The question here is rather that it is easier to "concentrate" aviation, since it is a highly mobile weapon, therefore, the air defense is faced with the task of resisting a massive fire raid.

      And the fact that the enemy air force must also be amazed in the battles in-in and on the ground of the KR and OTRK is by itself, but here is another task, how to overcome the enemy's air defense / missile defense.
      1. 5-9
        0
        April 23 2019 08: 58
        Well, if aviation can be concentrated, then absolutely any air defense from an air defense system alone against an approximately equal enemy will be rendered sooner or later. Therefore, to consider it without the support of the IA is fundamentally wrong. It's like imagining a situation, let T-14 on a prepared defense, list all the ricks of this and start coming up with a fence on 6 machine guns against infantry and up to the heap of missiles on the roof.
        1. 0
          April 23 2019 09: 01
          Quote: 5-9
          Well, if aviation can be concentrated, then absolutely any air defense from an air defense system alone against an approximately equal enemy will be rendered sooner or later. Therefore, to consider it without the support of the IA is fundamentally wrong. It's like imagining a situation, let T-14 on a prepared defense, list all the ricks of this and start coming up with a fence on 6 machine guns against infantry and up to the heap of missiles on the roof.


          Yes, of course, but in any case, the more stable the air defense is, the better. Especially given the fact that we have it more developed than the Air Force.

          The possibilities of concentration of the Air Force is also not limitless. At a certain stage, a heterogeneous armada will simply be impossible to manage. The attacking group of 30-50 airplanes is still normal, and then, the more, the more difficult.
        2. 0
          12 May 2019 01: 45
          Naturally. Therefore, the main task of air defense is to effectively repel the first strike. And then the most effective way for the enemy to organize a show on his territory is from attacks on base airfields to oil storage facilities and major transportation interchanges with ANY means available (which I read as wrong the actions of US opponents in Yugoslavia and in Iraq). Americans count money - declare to Saddam that the airspace of the EU and the United States is closed and any flights are prohibited (for example, with a demonstration of the detonation of a couple of empty airliners by saboteurs somewhere in Italy or the USA), I’m not sure that the Americans would continue the war against the background of monetary losses. A retaliatory strike MUST be - otherwise sooner or later they will finish off this axiom, defense wars will not be won.
  25. 0
    April 22 2019 14: 53
    Quote: Corn
    Then they wrote that hail rockets are cheaper than firing 122 mm guns.

    They lie, they all lie. Do not believe it. Google the device of the Grad M210F projectile for example, and compare it with a shot of 122 mm.
    Guided missiles in such calibers cannot be cheaper than missiles, but also more expensive, more likely one order of magnitude. And it makes sense only in large calibers to increase the channels of fire when regularly there is already barrel artillery (ships).
    Quote: 5-9
    Again an example from life "some kind of another Iraq" was going to fight against the United States - what should he do? Yes, no way, even a thousand S-60 with a fence, even a S-500.

    Right! Cut everything else into scrap, we leave only nuclear weapons and AK-74.
    1. 0
      April 22 2019 16: 06
      Quote: Rafale
      Right! Cut everything else into scrap, we leave only nuclear weapons and AK-74.

      Not the worst option! smile Put yourself in the shoes of a NATO general: What will fly in response to an airstrike? An evil line-up from AK-74 or a cheerful megaton to your gearbox? laughing
  26. 0
    April 22 2019 17: 00
    Quote: SETSET
    Author, you shouldn't show your ignorance about the Pantsir guided missiles. Moreover, without knowing their parameters.
    Quote: 17085
    It is worth noting that in calibers 76 and more than millimeters it is possible to create not only a projectile with a programmable detonation, but also a guided projectile, in its effectiveness is not inferior to the “Pantsirevskomu” “Nail.” But due to the absence of the first stage with the engine is much cheaper.

    It's just a fantasy. Anti-aircraft guns with controlled detonation can only supplement short-range air defense systems, and not replace. Can you understand why? Just Derivation ", there is a solution in this direction with its own shortcomings. And you do not need to transfer your judgments about Poseidon to the air defense system, where there are many technical problems with this direction of air defense development. Learn to understand the parameters of these systems. Do not forget about the effectiveness of these systems, and at what range, and against what targets.

    By the way, yes. The MR-184 even has a "curtain" in its firing mode. When in front of the NLC, bursts from the fall of shells are set on the course, in the expectation that the anti-ship missile will fly into a 30-meter burst from the fall of a 130mm Ak-130 land mine). A direct hit is out of the question at all. There is no question at all about the veil of fragments. A projectile with a radio fuse is only for high-altitude targets, which in itself is unlikely in modern combat.
  27. 0
    April 22 2019 17: 34
    I started reading the article with pleasure. Until the author came to the count of "rivets". And it became sad. Probably all generals are fools, politicians are profane, workers of the military-industrial complex are swindlers! Why does our not the richest country pour hundreds of billions of rubles into the S-300 \ 350 \ 400? And the Chinese / Turks / Indians are suckers, pay billions of dollars. All in all, it's business: rivet cannons, muddle smart shells to them, attach a guidance system and go to SCHOOL ...
  28. +1
    April 22 2019 18: 08
    The author suggests ways to accomplish air defense tasks by the methods of the Second World War, I cannot agree with him. The main thing is air defense entered the era of UAVs and this is already a reality! This means that the role of ground-based air defense weapons is alleviating, and for solving air defense tasks it is vital to introduce air defense UAVs, controlled from the ground and from air defense aircraft, with a combat radius of up to 1000 km. Why: 1-now the cost of a large missile is comparable to the price of a UAV. 2-Efficiency of an air defense UAV is undeniably higher than even a super superficial complex. The 3rd air defense objective should sound correct — destruction of weapon carriers, preventing the adversary from reaching the border of the combat use of airborne weapons. An air defense 4-fighter should not become a carrier of weapons, but a control center for a cloud of air defense drones, with appropriate equipment and means of detection and guidance, with a crew of 2-3 people. 5- air defense drones must have a TTX superior to that of a control fighter and use unprepared sites of limited size for launch. 6-eliminates the need for a driven partner. 6-the main and vital condition for air combat is created — an almost instantaneous reaction and concentration of efforts of a huge number of air defense drones in a narrow section of a breakthrough. What today's air defense system is not capable of doing, it is by definition static and tied to ground support and supply facilities. Today, the adversary, knowing the technical characteristics of the air defense system, logistics, methods of work, taking into account the time it takes for the teams to go through combat controlled circuits, will always find a weak link and destroy the guarded object and the air defense system itself at the lowest cost. That’s why today air defense men are joking: Air defense, like hair in a female causal place, they cover, but do not protect !!!
    1. 0
      April 22 2019 20: 34
      Thinking of the correct, ground-based air defense, in the overwhelming part of its former tasks (well, except for the fight against the infantry fighting system) is ANACHRONISM! It (nPVO) must be raised into the air. But you also have a little bit of something. What, for example, is a UAV-air defense? Kamikaze drone for air targets or carrier rocket explosives? ..
      1. 0
        April 23 2019 20: 53
        BB carrier, without reconnaissance equipment, but with combat control channels
  29. 0
    April 22 2019 18: 53
    And what will our air defense do in a hypothetical attack on the F-15x? Fly somewhere there? Something will fly to intercept both the carriers themselves and fired missiles from our planes. Not just the Cs protect objects there. So, the chances are somewhat equal in this attack, but there’s a heap of such a crowd and a flight to the country's borders one horizon will not miss without attention and what are you doing here)))
    1. 0
      April 23 2019 21: 40
      And it will fly off from ours, but very liquidly, due to the small number of air defense fighters and their high-quality condition — radar, electronics, engine, controls and guidance.
  30. -2
    April 22 2019 23: 18
    Economically, our country is not so strong

    It shares 5th place in the world with Germany in terms of GDP (PPP). From> 200 countries of the world to enter the top 5 economies of the world - is it "not so strong"? This is for GDP as a whole, including the service sector. And in terms of industrial volume (PPP), we are generally in the sole 4th place in the world, second only to China, India and the USA, overtaking Japan and Germany
    And relying on the latest system under a 57-mm shell, you need to understand: there’s not enough money for everything

    Full of money, nowhere to go. But while the Government for some reason is in no hurry to spend it
    1. 0
      April 23 2019 21: 44
      It’s not a question of money, but the availability of enterprises, trained specialists, in the established production chains. And GDP is interest on previous percentages, as a result, last year there was no tractor, and this is about 100% growth for you. Therefore, under I.V. Stalin everything was considered to be in the Sht.
  31. +2
    April 23 2019 02: 23
    1. "The economy is not very strong, so we cannot release a lot" - this is a fundamentally wrong phrase, a classic mistake. In reality, we do not want to produce a lot, so our economy is not very strong. If we want, we will release it and it will be strong.
    2. One of the obvious solutions is counter overload, inflatable simulators, or similar simulators in the radio range. Including - radar simulators.
    3. Well, no one canceled the special warheads either. If the Americans attack, it makes no sense to shoot them one at a time.
    1. +1
      April 23 2019 05: 22
      Remember why Crassus lost and so ingloriously perished? Parthians shot him, but he could not oppose anything, okromyuyu his turtle. If he has a cohort of long-range archers and the situation is fundamentally changing. In short, the ammunition and the number of installations, in the absence of interceptor aircraft, will have to do more and no trunks will help.
      1. 0
        April 23 2019 21: 26
        Or maybe to attach to each interceptor several UAVs with means of combating enemy aircraft? I think it will be much cheaper and more mobile
    2. 0
      April 23 2019 21: 04
      I wouldn’t like to have a special warhead located in the area of ​​undermining, but for the release, the desire does not mean received. Where are the plants, and most importantly, specialists, transport routes, the development of electronic networks. A 30-year-old failure in the Russian economy, it is impossible to make up for in one day or even a year. and war is time. As GK Zhukov said, One day brought so much trouble to the Second World War, and in the future one hour will play a role !!!
    3. 0
      April 23 2019 21: 47
      My dear man, how much time will it take for you to deploy the necessary production? And the bill in a future war will go to CLOCK, because during the Second World War, he went on days — these are the words of G.K. Zhukov
  32. 0
    April 23 2019 11: 09
    In fact, the problem is solved, long solved. There are basic principles for building air defense, nobody canceled them. First of all, layering and its depth, the composition of forces and means based on the capabilities (TTX) of types and purposes, be it air defense missiles, air defense systems, air defense systems, ZRAA, anti-aircraft artillery. In addition to all ground, there is still an IA operating in the interests of air defense. Do not forget about the forces and means of electronic warfare. The main thing in my opinion is the integration of each component into a single network, the forces and means of hard labor can destroy the enemy with sufficient efficiency. The organization of interaction and its implementation is a headache. The role of air defense in air defense is always relevant to this is a means of direct cover, along with the air defense missile defense system, MANPADS. And yet, yes, the first echelon does not live long and everyone understands. Raising to infinity BC and the channel of air defense systems is not very reasonable and very expensive. targets, so it seems to me that not everything is so sad, radars with different frequency ranges, detection principles see aircraft in different ways, that is, the type of target can be determined with sufficient reliability. But at the moment I don’t know if there are VKS and ZRV in service in particular, missile launchers with missile defense systems.? During my years, there were services for the destruction of group targets, nuclear weapons carriers, etc. And here's what else, you need to train specialists and the armed forces and the troops, as one great man said in my opinion: Learn military affairs in the present way!
    1. 0
      April 23 2019 21: 57
      In matters of management and its automation, I completely agree with you. The task is different. The adversary launches cheap weapons in large quantities into battle - these are UAVs controlled by fighters to gain superiority in the air and this is against the background of the use of electronic weapons. suppression. The use of special warhead double-edged blade. But to counter the real, ground-based air defense systems have come to the end of their capabilities. We need a quality leap and this is an air defense UAV.
  33. 0
    April 23 2019 11: 52
    The priority of concealed targets should also be taken into account when designing an air defense system. Sacrifice something from the beginning, but fight for it all the way.
    1. 0
      April 23 2019 21: 20
      Today there is no such task! The initial task of air defense is simply to survive because the first blows are inflicted exclusively on her, with the aim of suppressing and gaining superiority in the air
  34. 0
    April 23 2019 19: 57
    there are such solutions in the west. The Germans set the Mantis system out of three Örlikon Flak 35mm gun turrets and guidance systems.
    https://youtu.be/6xxcW8H1mfo
    1. 0
      April 23 2019 20: 01
      No Mantis has not 3, but 4 turrets
    2. 0
      April 23 2019 21: 23
      Having been born, this product is already outdated, aircraft attack tools have taken a powerful step - Unmanned Aerial Vehicles
      1. 0
        April 23 2019 23: 26
        why would and small-sized targets and shoot down drones? Have you watched the video at all? By the way, these guns also shot down mines. Mobile version - Cheetah
        1. 0
          April 24 2019 01: 55
          the manufacturer gives the probability of defeat = 0.25 - that’s the whole answer about the operation of the barrel artillery in air defense, in translating the costs of the BP to one target, then a small caliber = 5000-8000 shells. Barrel artillery was needed to frighten the pilots, with the task of knocking off course, not allowing sighting to work on the ground. And today, the SV air defense is faced with the task of not allowing enemy aircraft into the far zone of the use of airborne weapons. It is extremely difficult to shoot down drones with art systems, because they are very maneuverable and small-sized, and most importantly cheap, and if a plane costs 5000 shells, then there will be 12000 for a drone, the approximate price of 30mm shell = 500 rubles. It turns out that even a rocket is cheaper.
          1. 0
            April 24 2019 22: 44
            The trick is that this is not about protecting an object, but about protecting (in fact) air defense radars. The task is much simpler: we know where the ammunition flies. What you are right about is that you need to switch to medium calibres, since the targets are small and it is problematic to hit them with a shell, it’s easier to hammer with fragments.
            1. 0
              April 25 2019 19: 13
              I think that air defense should move from land to air. Air defense drones - quite an adequate response to air defense tasks, APU to lift into the air, there it is easier to detach from interference and identify the target. CHP lift into the air-horizon automatically expands, which means the range of damage increases.
  35. +1
    April 23 2019 22: 28
    Like be, it’s obvious that:

    1. You can intercept carriers (you must!) At a distance, and take off the launch distance of small-sized missiles and bombs. There is already a different scenario.
    2. A major war between countries capable of setting 60 combat aircraft per attack will almost certainly be nuclear. And the breakthrough of air defense in this case is not important.
    1. 0
      April 24 2019 02: 07
      You're not right. Today, the participation of a huge number of air attack weapons in one strike is the rule. After all, the task of gaining air superiority by the squadron cannot be solved by Yugoslavia, Libya, and Iraq. In one hit from 100 to 200 means, taking into account the Tomahawks
      1. 0
        April 24 2019 09: 00
        Well, how many countries can set up a “huge” number of aircraft per attack (if not the only one)?

        NATO is good. China, too. But both those and others must sacredly believe that in response to such a raid they will grab a volley of ICBMs.


        Israel and Japan ... these technically can, but they will not extend a full-fledged war with the Russian Federation in any form. Again, because applying tactical atomic to them is not a mess.

        If we are talking about countries like Syria and fashionable proxy wars today, then the question is already in the plane of pure politics. The same S-300s can shoot down any media beyond the launch range, but this is not done for political reasons.
        1. 0
          April 25 2019 19: 27
          Of course, the main adversary is America, in a pile with it or autonomously, it is the countries of the EEC and NATO, well, the best friend, as a rule, becomes the enemy-China. There will be no use of nuclear weapons (remember the Second World War and the presence of chemical weapons, but no one dared to use it). NF will not be used, due to the deep penetration of political and economic elites into each other — roughly speaking, the use of nuclear weapons will harm the business, so there will be no command for use on any side — everything is bought and paid.
          1. 0
            April 25 2019 20: 36
            The application team will be from the losing side. First lightly, with artillery shells, and then bigger. That is why I see no reason to consider a symmetrical total confrontation at all, it will not be.
            1. 0
              April 25 2019 22: 35
              Your opinion is strange! If you have scrap in your hands, I doubt that you will first cut it into pieces (and suddenly the enemy will be too painful), and then weld it again to its original state and cut the adversary out of place. NF can be applied only once, and this will be the case when the debate on the internet appears at best in a couple of million years. All other cases will lead to hundred-year prohibitions on entry into the affected area. Then, excuse me, but what is the point of the war, if not the seizure of resources and territories? The confrontation will be asymmetric, because what is developed in you is weak in the enemy and vice versa. A powerful economy can always be driven into a maze of super weapons and a wunder wunder. The upcoming battles will not be a war of motors, but a war of artificial intelligence. And this is much more dangerous than tank wedges and breakthroughs to the operational depth of the enemy. This is the concentration of artificial brains to solve one single task - the destruction of the enemy. In chess, man has already lost to artificial intelligence. This is the battlefield of the future, not Urya-Urya, your hill, our hill! And there is a chance that the roar of guns and rocket explosions we will hear once, when the computers determine the moment of application of lightning defeat to the enemy.
              1. 0
                April 25 2019 22: 47
                This is all true if we assume that the military and political leadership of all countries are entirely brilliant, visionary and reasonable people.

                The beginning of a major war, for example, between Russia and China, is already a point of no return. End such a war will not work.
  36. 0
    April 23 2019 22: 35
    The author, Andrei Mitrofanov, raised an extremely important and very interesting topic and highlighted a problem that in the very near future will "drive" the classic air defense systems into a dead end. We are talking about the so-called "saturating" attack, when the number of targets (until we discuss real or real and false together) significantly exceeds the fire performance of defensive air defense systems
    The topic is really serious. It's no secret that the mess will begin with an air attack. In the discussion of the previous article, he outlined the idea of ​​creating additional air defense elements. I would not want to repeat myself, but if the discussion continued I repeat.
    A laser locator is a good choice for target selection. If you put it off the rails, the power problem will be solved. But chickpeas have one thing. This air defense element will work well in the Crimea, in the Stavropol region, on the lower Volga, but not in the Leningrad region. with its rains and fogs. For the northwest, another technology is suitable, implemented in the "Ranets-E" complex. The problem of the short range of the complex is solved as in the previous case by changing the carrier. Such an air defense system will have to clean out the whole sector at once, as the MLRS does on the ground, and a humid environment will just come in handy.
    Let's say we have an attacking group of 22 F-15E aircraft
    With a dangerous approach to the border, a group of several air defense systems will begin to irradiate the ionosphere over enemy territory. The bursting solar wind is already at the approaches trying on the strength of their communication systems and electronics. In addition, AFAR falling under such radiation will go blind instantly. Well, with classics it will be possible to achieve real and more expensive goals.
    1. 0
      April 25 2019 22: 53
      It also makes sense to look for a solution to the problem in lasers, satchels, etc., as a direction for the development of air defense systems. But you didn’t understand the main idea, the paradigm of air attack weapons has changed. Think about it: 1-adversary will use stealth aircraft as a means of breaking through and destroying SV air defense. 2-adversary creates stealth aircraft with the main function-control of attack weapons issued by other aircraft of the group. 3 stealth aircraft will go in a cloud of kamikaze drones or weapon carriers. THOSE. F-22, F-35, F117 will carry out a tip, both of means of destruction (long arm), and (medium), and longer with their airborne weapons (short arm). What SV air defense can detect these types of planes at half range, but take no automatic target — flickering, respectively, missile guidance is impossible — that's where the dog is buried. Therefore, I see the prospect of anti-aircraft defense in raising the means of reconnaissance and guidance in the air, to a height. And the second is the use of UAVs as air defense systems (carriers of explosive weapons), controlled by IA.
  37. 0
    April 24 2019 00: 05
    War is the continuation of politics.
    Politics is a continuation of the economy.

    In order to fight with America, you must first catch up with it economically, and only then withdraw money for military toys, which are not a fact that will come in handy.
    1. 0
      April 24 2019 02: 17
      I will continue your thought! Yes, you can focus solely on the economy, and most importantly, catch up with the enemy’s approach to these economic regions. Life needs a wise balance, today neither the country nor the people living in it are needed by anyone. Natural resources and all wars are needed precisely because of this. And all the words about the system, democracy, etc., are ordinary chatter.
  38. 0
    April 24 2019 00: 10
    Why is it supposed to go on the defensive to attack the enemy? To respond to the F-15 and F-16 attack, strike at the take-off place, level the airfield or burn the aircraft carrier, shoot down carriers of air bombs and missiles with fighters to gain superiority in the air. And let the air defense only finish off what the vultures managed to release. And if you constantly defend yourself, it will not lead to anything good, Syria is an example of this. Need to hit in the head and very hard.
    1. 0
      April 24 2019 02: 18
      Then you need to be the first to start a war !!!
      1. 0
        April 24 2019 09: 02
        Many examples in history say that yes, it is necessary. The same 41st year.
        1. 0
          April 24 2019 22: 46
          Yeah, at the same time, at once, the US economy will be compared with ours by a preemptive strike.
          1. 0
            April 25 2019 20: 38
            A large-scale offensive a la Aloizych in 41 is quite comparable in terms of its impact to a preemptive nuclear strike today. Yes, it will even be more dangerous, since not just "in dust", but also to your advantage.
  39. 0
    April 24 2019 01: 10
    Such is our air defense and is waiting for when it will already begin to be oversaturated with hundreds of formidable bombs! Who will allow two dozen F-15s to reach the line of discharge planning bombs? In order for such a bomb to plan at least for some reason, its carrier must have a decent height, at which it will be detected by the S-300/400 and dropped with a probability close to 1. Going at low altitude with two dozen bombs on the suspension (a dubious matter for the F-15 )? But then the line of discharge will be much closer to the line of detection and destruction of the carrier by the same S-300/400, and in this case also by BUKs with armor.
    1. 0
      April 24 2019 02: 32
      Respected!! to gain superiority in the air with gliding bombs simply do not fly. And they use: 1- long-range homing weapons, such as missiles. 2-aircraft with stealth technology. 3-means REP. 4-a huge number of false targets. 5-attack from different courses and a sea of ​​other tactical methods for the destruction of air defense systems in the first place. Yes, and the anti-aircraft defense of the SV stands at the joint venture and the antitank defense station in anticipation of an attack, because it covers something, oddly enough. This is precisely the difficulty in solving the problems of air defense, and whoever solves it will be the winner in the land battle.
      1. 0
        April 24 2019 02: 37
        But the author of the article to suppress layered air defense just fly with bombs and oversaturated, oversaturated.
    2. +1
      April 24 2019 08: 32
      . it will be detected by S-300/400 and brought down with a probability close to 1.
      ... This is unlikely, because the Fu-15 is going under the cover of a bunch of false targets, and in addition, it has its own airborne missile defense to protect against S-300/400/500 missiles ..
      1. 0
        April 24 2019 09: 24
        Let's talk in numbers, namely:

        1. The number of missiles that the S-300/400 battery can release from the moment it detects an attacking group until the battery is suppressed? I suspect that all cash.

        2. Damage to a group of 20-40 F-15 after shelling by the number of missiles from p. 1. Optimistic and pessimistic options.

        3. The number of missiles that the Tor / Shell cover battery can release according to a previously detected group of (20-40) minus (shot down in clause 2) F-15 from the moment the group enters the affected area until the group launches bombs and missiles. There may be zero if the launch range of the bombs is higher than the range of the Tor / Shell shells.

        4. The number of bombs and missiles fired by the group (20-40 F-15) minus (shot down in clause 2) minus (shot down in clause 3).

        5. The number of bombs and missiles shot down by the cannons of the Shell and the shells of the Shell / Torus, if the rockets after item 3 still remain.

        6. Damage to the battery from broken bombs and missiles.



        And yes, it's all with that assumption, the battery itself was the target of the raid.
        1. 0
          April 24 2019 22: 45
          1) It is impossible to calculate, it is not a matter of secrecy, but of strategic mobility and the transfer of launchers from other parts
          2) the damage is equal to zero, because they do not enter the affected area, their task is to transfer missiles and protect AWACS \ RER \ EW, in the event of the appearance of enemy aircraft, they shoot and gradually recede
          3) here again zero for range.
          4) at least 40 RVV and over 600 tamogavks and / or their analogues
          5) at least 10-50% of the tomahawks because they use the folds of the terrain (with the development of mapping and mapping systems in the next 50 years there will be up to 90%)
          6) 100% failure of the radar and as a result of the whole complex
          7) and yes it is they who will be the first to be attacked in order to subsequently bomb accurately (this is the case with coastal air defense systems)
          The Russian Federation is protected not so much by air defense systems as by a nuclear triad (as, in principle, other countries).
      2. 0
        April 25 2019 19: 52
        It should be borne in mind that the new F-15 is a very serious device for gaining superiority in the air, and it will be used simply as a carrier, and if the F-22, F-35 and F 117 will control the battle, the picture is extremely dangerous and difficult for ground air defense systems. I’ll try to draw how the adversary’s raid will occur. at the first stage, mass launch of cruise missiles is carried out, at the entrance of the Kyrgyz Republic to the defeat zone of the air defense group of the air defense, synchronous entry of the inconspicuous F-22, F-35 and F-117 is carried out, a serious opposition to the detection and guidance means is created. Against the background of great interference and false and real targets, an F-15 outfit with air-to-ground missiles breaks into the air defense responsibility zone and launches all these missiles from a maximum distance, turns around and leaves the affected area, F-22, F-35, F-117 take control of the missiles launched, launches its own and all this armada rushes straight to the air defense and air defense air forces. And the F-15s begin to play the role of a fighter for air superiority and cover their aircraft. What can counteract today the air defense of the SV such a scenario, but just nothing. Mi-15 and Su-31 and 30 will be connected by F-35, and stealth aircraft will conduct all missiles to their intended targets. The question arises, what can be opposed to such a scenario?
        1. 0
          April 25 2019 20: 41
          2-3 times 20 kilotons in the area of ​​the attacking group. Missiles or aircraft - to your taste.
          1. 0
            April 25 2019 22: 09
            I would like to know the opinion of my infantry, over whose heads there will be an air nuclear explosion! And the second one-sided use of nuclear weapons will not be, CONCLUSION is the end of our ball and all who shy away from it. Then the question is: what, in fact, is the reason? This is probably why in the 90s all special charges were removed from the troops and others were developed for new complexes based on new physical principles, such as electronic magnetic ones.
            1. 0
              April 25 2019 22: 50
              And the infantry in war is usually not asked. What do they do on command "flash"? This is what they will probably think about.

              And the reason is that I’m attacking the territory of the Russian Federation with a group of 20-40 planes, the attacker must clearly understand that this is the end of the ball. That's just still and live relatively calmly.
        2. 0
          April 29 2019 17: 07
          I apologize, I am writing with a delay, but due to the many comments (this fact alone says that the article is topical and not stupid, sincere thanks to the author), I only read yours (to which I answer). I would like to clarify some technical, but in my opinion, important questions. 1. What do you mean by air defense ground? Air defense of ground forces? but then neither the F-22 nor the F-35 pose a serious threat specifically to the ground forces (ground forces). Due to the restrictions imposed by stealth, they can use weapons that are effective only against stationary targets with predetermined coordinates. In the case of the ground forces, this is not a topic. 2. The Americans tried to "intercept control" of missiles as an experiment for the "standard" missiles and the "Aegis" system. No further experiments have been made yet. I think there is no need to explain the difference between the capabilities of the Aegis on board a destroyer or cruiser class ship and the aircraft's onboard equipment. "Interception", "transfer" of AAS guidance with any guidance principles (radar, laser, television, telecontrol) from one aircraft to another is currently impossible and will not be possible until the appearance of fundamentally new sighting and search systems, plus it is still not in demand (not needed by the customer). 3. Massive use of CDs makes sense only in two cases: a) they are corrected by the GPS system (it is correctly called NAVSTAR, GPS is the name of the commercial version for civilians), b) they carry SBS, since without satellite navigation, easily drowned out by electronic warfare means, the TERCOM system gives KVO 60 - 100 m, which does not make it possible to hit point targets (radars, air defense command posts, etc.). The defeat of mobile targets is generally "beyond the competence". The example of Yugoslavia shows that with at least some air defense, electronic warfare and camouflage, and most importantly, with sufficient fighting spirit, even the massive use of the CD does not give decisive success. 4. The F-117 was removed from service after the Serbs shot down its S-125 air defense system. "Subtle" is the official name of such aircraft for the American military, and it fully reflects the essence. The word "stealth" is translated from English first of all as "trick", "trick", and only then as "invisibility". It was "launched" by journalists eager for sensations. So the F-117 turned out to be "unobtrusive". At a shorter distance, with a much lower heading parameter than a conventional aircraft, but the Serbs "noticed" it, CHP-125 took it on escort and the American pilot Dvili then thanked the ejection seat and special forces, thanks to which he survived. Perhaps, the B-2 is also hardly noticeable, but it is not easy to remove it from service - the program costs are not comparable, and for the removal of the B-2 "heads will fly." This is probably why veterans of the B-52 are still flying. As for the F-22 and F-35, both ours and the Israelis carefully conceal all information. I think, as usual, the truth is roughly in the middle: the planes turned out to be not as inconspicuous as their manufacturers painted, and our air defense systems are not as effective as their advertising.
        3. 0
          12 May 2019 01: 26
          The script is crazy. Starting from some "invisibility" of these aircraft ONLY in radio silence mode and with weapons in the internal compartments. And ending with CR launches, which, generally speaking, are detected, like the very fact of such a launch, and correct their flight according to the positioning system data. And after the FIRST such massive use against Russia or China, I am not very sure whether the navigation satellites will remain intact. Nobody guarantees that some of the inoperative satellites in these orbits are really completely inoperative and do not have the ability to correct the orbit for the course of collision with the interfering enemy satellite. And there are even more specialized military systems there.
          1. 0
            13 May 2019 13: 25
            Generally agreeing with you, I have to correct you a little. Interception of one satellite by another is a topic that has been worked out well in practice in the USSR (I can indicate the name and other data of a serious book on this topic), but absolutely impossible in present-day Russia with the great "successes" of Mr. Rogozin, and, moreover, very expensive. The navigation system NAVSTAR is easier to "jam", which was done in both Chechen wars, albeit with varying degrees of success. It is very difficult to detect the launching of a cruise missile from "unobtrusive" aircraft, because and aircraft and their ATS use passive means of targeting, therefore, "stealthy" more often use KAB, and not CD. But these limitations make "stealthy" aircraft with their weapons quite effective ONLY against stationary targets. They are not a threat to the troops.
    3. 0
      15 July 2019 11: 25
      Well, sobssno, in 1982 in Syria they were waiting for this and waiting for it. The FEDA air defense line was destroyed in this way.
  40. 0
    April 26 2019 23: 26
    But how can such rockets be used to shoot down rockets performing maneuvers at the final flight site ... you can imagine what density of fire you need to ensure ... guided projectiles are adjusted a bit, and will not pursue a rocket
  41. 0
    April 27 2019 09: 44
    Quote: uyry
    And the second one-sided use of nuclear weapons will not be, CONCLUSION is the end of our ball and all who shy away from it. Then the question is: what, in fact, is the reason? This is probably why in the 90s all special charges were removed from the troops and others were developed for new complexes based on new physical principles, such as electronic magnetic ones.
    Quite right. Hence the conclusion - on the opposite side they ask themselves the same question - '... and what, in fact, .. Season ??! ". As a result, we have in the bottom line an unambiguous answer - It is better not to touch these savages, after all, they, unlike Us, white people, ... there is nothing to lose ..)
  42. 0
    April 30 2019 13: 21
    With a highly echeloned highly mobile network-centric air defense system, no massive air raids can suppress the air defense system by anything! The problem is the place to be for stationary objects with the limited air defense means of these stationary objects, as is the case in Syria. At the same time, it should be understood that a new weapon of attack requires a new defense, both in tactics and mate. parts. It should also take into account the high speed of the emergence of new means of attack and improve existing ones. SAM S-400, S-500 is apparently a certain limit (today). Further increasing the range of the affected area requires a different, cheaper technical solution than increasing the range of missiles. What it will depend on which of the designers, inventors is available and the most talented. Information has appeared about new radars, which in the future are capable of giving out a picture of a target of television quality and, accordingly, the possibility of target selection. It is technically possible to create unmanned interceptors for missile launchers, etc. Not to mention the oncoming swarm of primitive small-sized UAVs.
    1. 0
      April 30 2019 17: 17
      I really like that many authors and commentators use the concept of "network-centric system" and rely on them as already created and operating. It seems that few people understand how difficult it is to create such a system. The difficulty at the present time lies not in the power of mobile computers and not in "devices" (perhaps I did not quite use the term correctly, but I am old, and it will be boring for you to describe the "means of communication and obtaining information", and even in detail), which can be installed in a tank or in an infantryman's helmet, and in the implementation of a reliable and covert communication between them. If in the ground forces, due to the relatively small distances and the possibility, therefore, to provide an acceptable level of the signal-to-interference ratio, this is still solvable, although far from 100% (the conditions of the relief, the power of the transmitting devices affect the helmet, the aircraft transponder is someone else's "you will not" drive in ", etc.), then for air defense systems (or complexes) scattered over distances from 1 km (" Thor ") to 50 km (the so-called" advanced "battery of an ancient, but good still S-200), not to mention the S-300 brigades and its derivatives, the creation of such a system is still a puzzle. The apologists for network-centric systems are Americans, even Western Europe and technologically very advanced Japan, treat this "miracle of hostile technology" with healthy skepticism. First, Americans have been developing and testing this concept by investing very serious money for more than 30 years. Do not believe me - read the magazines "Foreign Military Review", "Interavia" for the 80s of the last century. The concept has already been and has already been tested. Secondly, the Americans themselves use it against a numerically inferior (unequivocally), technologically inferior (preferably) and morally unstable (highly desirable) adversary: ​​Iraq, Libya. As soon as the enemy was at least morally stable (Serbs), the system failed. As soon as moral stability was joined by not critically inferior numbers and greatly inferior, but compensated by "non-symmetric means" technological backwardness (Iran), the "network-centric war" system "died." Nobody has yet used serious electronic warfare equipment in reality. Look at the effectiveness of the network-centric air defense system (and this is exactly what it was) in the interception of the ancient Soviet R-17M (in the West referred to as "Scud-B") during the first Gulf War. According to the American commander of the sewer (sorry, coalition) forces, the most effective means against the strikes of the Scud-B were not the Patriots with notification from satellites and other "supermodern" gadgets (the concept of network-centric air defense in its purest form at the local theater of operations), not air strikes, directed by special forces, and mines, planted "drop-in" on the alleged launchers. How many civilians were killed by these mines? Before writing about the "network-centric air defense system", assess the reality of its creation and functioning.
      1. 0
        April 30 2019 17: 25
        In terms of complexity and, to a large extent, virtuality, you can quite agree with you. Nevertheless, progress in this matter exists and there are individual successes. You are right about vulnerability, but even here the Americans supposedly got gaps. Let's see how things go with the bombing in Venezuela.
        1. 0
          5 May 2019 17: 20
          I am forced to note that Venezuela belongs to the same category as Libya: neither military training, nor experience, nor, most importantly, the desire to fight. Neither the Su-30 nor the S-300 alone will give victory. Both Maduro and Putin understand this, otherwise there would be no 2 sides with our military.
  43. 0
    5 May 2019 20: 41
    Quote: samaravega
    Venezuela belongs to the same category as Libya


    Venezuela belongs to the same category as most normal countries and peoples. Normal people do not want to fight. It is necessary to try very hard for people to take up arms. An example of the same Libya, and before it Syria, and before it Vietnam, took up arms and are fighting. Venezuela has more than chances with China, Russia, Cuba. The only problem is how to most effectively transfer the country to martial law. It is easier for Venezuela to turn into just another Vietnam than anyone else. In the United States, presidential elections are on the way. There is absolutely no reason for Trump to risk another shameful war, and in addition to the existing ones. They are trying to entice him into this conflict, but he is a grated loaf and no matter how grabbed and tied up, turned into a puppet, a dummy on a short leash does not work. The United States has no prospects in Venezuela, they can bomb once, twice, or three times they will get a response and that's enough for them. The United States has a lot of its own problems and they are not able to solve them. You cannot change the world, change yourself! They do not want to understand this, a common thing, they will wait until they get their backs lower and immediately see. "Tomorrow" will immediately come and they will start a "new life" from a "blank slate". A bit more. a little more and they will not be up to Venezuela. If they anger Putin, he will help them elect Guaido as president of the United States. Russia has lost a lot after the collapse in the USSR, in Libya, for example, in Venezuela, too, a lot has been invested, and to lose everything again simply because some kind of drish in the United States wanted to, already tired. Because of private interests, there are no fools in the United States to harness the war with Russia.
    1. 0
      6 May 2019 15: 16
      I apologize, but, firstly, you are dumping completely different wars in one pile, and secondly, you wishful thinking.
      1. The war in Vietnam was caused by the national liberation movement of the people, first against the French (colonialists), then against the Americans who replaced them. The war was the result of long accumulated national, social, economic and other problems and was INEVITABLE. Accordingly, it was headed by POLITICAL forces, which have and have infected the masses with their IDEOLOGY. The motivation was very serious, that is why people REALLY took up arms, fought for many years and achieved victory. In Syria and Libya, wars were provoked by intensifying squabbling between clans with the aim of overthrowing a "strong leader" who knew how to "keep these clans in check." What is the "ideology" of these clans, apart from personal power and profit? How are they fundamentally different from each other? They have nothing to offer to unite and inspire people, to create motivation to take up arms seriously. Therefore, there are "hybrid" wars with the participation of PMCs and other evil spirits, so only two or three dozen Russian aircraft in Khmeimim, or about the same number of French and Arab aircraft that periodically raided Libya, can turn the tide of these "wars." In Vietnam, such a number of aircraft would simply not be noticed. Venezuela is from the category of Syria and Libya, its current government has chances even with Russia. even without - zero. Neither China nor Cuba will go beyond political support. Maduro has nothing to motivate his supporters, however, like Guaido, but the latter can speculate on the current difficulties.
      2. For several decades I have heard how many problems America has, they are about to receive a kick, a return line, a little more, and they will collapse, they will have nothing to do. It seems that we are more concerned about their problems than they are, especially Kiselev, Solovyov and others like them. I don’t want to praise the States, I don’t like them, although for other reasons, but just look how this surge of emotions corresponds to reality.
      Finally, a question: what can an "angry" Putin do to America?
      1. 0
        6 May 2019 19: 47
        It doesn’t make any difference with which sauce the side dish is served, the essence is the same. There are great USA and everyone else. Venezuela is Venezuela, it is not Vietnam and not Libya, but the United States as it was. Assuming that in Venezuela the United States will not have so many reasons as always, there is less than a minimum. And vice versa. How and why exactly, clans, parties, people or just real Venezuelan colonels are not the point.

        An economic crisis is inevitable, a little earlier or a little later. According to American experts, the next crisis will be many times more serious than the last in 2008. And the later it comes, the deeper it will be. Here on the site they wrote that in potential a depreciation of the dollar could lead to a tenfold drop in the purchasing power of the Americans! It seems that this should still concern American politicians, but for some reason they care about anything, but not their own financial problems. And since the United States owes the whole world, this cannot but bother most of the planet. One gets the impression that the transnationals have already written off the United States, they have no homeland, their homeland is their transnational capital. With them it will become big to cash in at the funeral of the United States. There are objective economic indicators that have passed practical verification by past crises, as they say, they portend another crisis in the coming years. True, there are novelties in crisis management, in 2008 the US administration .... nationalized large corporations ....! The crisis threw dollars directly from the printing press. What and how it turns out this time can only be guessed. But the cattle have nothing to catch, as always they will tear off like sticky.
      2. 0
        6 May 2019 19: 56
        Speaking of Putin. I don’t know. Try asking yourself. To fuck up a barrel of honey .... Breaking does not build. The Venezuelan oil company transfers its offices to Moscow, then I’ll transfer another thread .... it may so happen that all of Venezuela will be an integral part of Russia! USA, the Baltic States, Russia, Venezuela, as for me so nothing, will go even without a beer.
        1. 0
          7 May 2019 13: 26
          You wrote that HE (Putin) will make Guaido the president of the United States. And now "I don't know"? Who and what offices are moving to Moscow, the common man "cared nothing". Already South Ossetia, and Abkhazia, and Transnistria, and the DPR and LPR are "integral parts of Russia." So what? Even officially, the budget of South Ossetia (revenue side) is 96% of "transfers from the federal budget" (source: Central Bank of the Russian Federation, I can send a link). If the "federal pacifier" is extended to another 31 million people. population of Venezuela, and even given the distance and the need to maintain a group "protecting the vital interests of the Russian Federation", you will have to forget about "pivasik". Or in some dream you dreamed that Sechin would personally share with you?
          1. 0
            7 May 2019 19: 05
            Quote: samaravega
            you will have to forget about "pivasik"

            How excited you are.
            As a child, one granny once told me that during the war years she did not starve for a single day. In Soviet times, living in the city she had a cow and a vegetable garden. Unlike many, I don’t have to go anywhere, ask anyone for anything.
            I don’t know whether Sechin will live without oil, but I’m sure without Sechin. We were fond of a pivasic by youth, now it is no longer solid, I use more noble exclusively natural drinks (daily). What the president said in the USA, it’s not difficult to say that he is also the president of the USA. A lot of things are also written on the fence ... Putin is the president of a great power, but he doesn’t obey me now, but this is his turn ... True, this is a completely different story, it has nothing to do with air defense.
            1. 0
              8 May 2019 10: 12
              Happy for you! Considering the inevitable fall of the USA from day to day, I recommend setting off to buy a cow right now. Then it will rise in price.
              1. 0
                8 May 2019 19: 37
                When the dollar falls, the value of my assets will increase sharply! Keep your advice with you. From day to day, the inevitable will not happen. Unlike the United States, milk is much better in Russia. True, they have not yet set up a steam room in the morning, but at least three households are brought to a neighboring house every day from morning milking.
                1. 0
                  13 May 2019 13: 32
                  Do not make me laugh! Even in Turkey, the situation with milk is much better than in Russia, I was more than once, I was convinced. I am glad that when the dollar falls, your assets will rise sharply. Only for some reason, since 1992, since 100, it has not yet fallen (in relation to the ruble). There is an old song by Bulat Shavlovich Okudzhava "When we return to Portland." It is XNUMX% suitable for the "ruble / dollar" situation. As for the tips, you started about the grandmother and the cow.
                  1. The comment was deleted.
  44. +1
    11 May 2019 08: 49
    The U.S. Navy Research Department has developed an algorithm that in the long run will create a control system for groups of unmanned aerial vehicles or homing missiles. According to Flightglobal, the new algorithm allows a group of missiles to calculate the flight of each ammunition so that they fly from different directions to the target with a difference of no more than 250 milliseconds.
    It is believed that groups of unmanned aerial vehicles will be able to more efficiently perform various tasks, including reconnaissance and striking at enemy targets. Massive and simultaneous attacks on targets by groups of missiles will reduce the likelihood of repelling such an attack.
    https://nplus1.ru/news/2019/05/10/algorithm
  45. 0
    12 May 2019 01: 09
    The author forgot some things - the launch range, the availability of electronic warfare equipment and the firing range of the guns. 150-200 km is the limit for launching most of the described ammunition. Therefore, for air defense systems of long-range radius of targets there will be fewer times. Suppressing and destroying a positioning system will reduce accuracy from such distances so that half of the targets simply cannot reach and reach. Interceptor fighters will also not sit out in the middle of nowhere, so the number of targets for air defense systems is still decreasing. It is not necessary for small and group targets at low and medium altitudes to launch an anti-aircraft missile for each target, it is likely to use missiles with several submunitions with their own guidance systems. As well as launch all anti-aircraft missiles from one point to the ultimate range. Say, in a forest 200 km from the object, there will be 10-20 containers with several cheap missiles standing at a launch distance of 50-100 km, and they will be controlled and guided remotely in a semi-automatic mode even from a ground control gear even from an airplane, such as AWACS. And there can be several such points. The same is true at sea - supply vehicles with several hundred SAMs in the TPK partially solve the problem of the number of missiles on a warship. Well, in the nearest air defense zone, anti-aircraft guns can already be used. From which it follows that a layered air defense system of several types of weapons with a single decision center and distributed control is required so that it cannot be destroyed by a pair of missiles. And most importantly - their cheap and mass production. PS. I heard about the destruction of low-flying US aircraft, either in Korea or in Vietnam using controlled fields from ... firecrackers! At the course of the plane, firecrackers in the tree crowns are blown up, frightened birds naturally take off and the plane flies into this cloud ... I doubt the great effectiveness of this method (as well as the effectiveness of barrage balloons in WWII, for example), but it is quite capable of spoiling nerves.
  46. 0
    16 June 2019 09: 34
    it was said clearly to strike at control places and bases, and not wait for the swarm to arrive
  47. 0
    23 June 2019 01: 48
    For some reason, the author believes that oversaturated with air defense systems is easier than ZAK. In my opinion this is a false statement. ZAK has a very narrow sector of fire, while a rocket can attack the target in the entire hemisphere.
    In view of the firing sector, an attack on a wide front can oversaturate a ZAK with even less ammunition than an air defense system.
    Due to the fact that the projectile does not fly instantly, the effective range of the ZAK with controlled detonation is a dagger - several kilometers.
    The range of air defense systems is much higher.
    Ammunition ZAK with a guided projectile is much more expensive than ammunition of an air defense system (because there are more overloads), while the damage is lower (mass of explosives).
    Air defense target illumination locators are much smaller, massive and have fewer special requirements than a quick-firing artillery gun, respectively, they can be placed more - simultaneously shoot down more targets.
    The ZAK itself, a much larger overall heavy one, requires orders of magnitude more energy (a heavy weapon must be rotated and rotated quickly and accurately) than an air defense system.
  48. 0
    24 June 2019 16: 41
    And if you instruct Tula to make a multi-barrel type GSh caliber 37-45-57 ?! This is the first! And the second thing is to do the same with the USA itself! I mean Saturating Attack on THEIR air defense!
    1. 0
      15 July 2019 11: 20
      Well this is what the railway platform needs transportation for ZSU-57x4
  49. 0
    15 July 2019 11: 17
    Year that way back in 1985 at the Department of Air Defense VPA them. Lenin, the topic of the initial failure of tactical "oversaturation" of attacks literally on the fingers was explained to listeners to believers only in TTX (well, like nonesh analysts). The bottom line is that war = a market, and no one is interested in the destruction of objects at any cost, even the Israelis, but it is important to master the investment, so there will be exactly as many goals as the budget of the operation is included in the strategic planning of the marshals from the accounting department. And for the rest - dialectics ... let's mention just M.-L.
  50. 0
    5 March 2020 17: 06
    You need to understand in what respect should be the rate of fire and energy guidance. How many and at what speed it is necessary to release shells in one direction. After undermining a flying projectile, its non-streamlined and unstabilized parts cannot fly at supersonic speed, they quickly lose it and the affected area is not so large. Therefore, the accuracy of the delay setting and rate of fire determine the likelihood of damage. The moderator should be simple, accurate, operational. This will affect the design of the projectile and gun.
    I would still recommend doing the installation with a quad block of trunks, on the same carriage. With offset tactile salvo and simultaneous charging.
    and we need to study Baryshev’s experience in more detail.
  51. 0
    11 March 2020 15: 33
    There are no barriers to my imagination.)) A gun with a revolver load. Four interlocking barrels. In the breech, two blocks with projectiles rotate on the same axis. The blocks are alternately pressed with cams to the trunks, the interface between the channels of the block and the trunks is conical for obturation. Actually, I hope that it will be possible to charge an unused unit while firing. How I haven’t figured it out yet.))