There was money for the fleet. They even spent

315
In the course of the dialogues concerning how well-thought the shipbuilding policy of the Russian Navy was, the question of money inevitably arises. Whoever is an opponent who does not want to recognize the disastrous nature of the entire Russian naval construction of the past sixteen or seventeen years, is a corrupt official involved in this impasse, is not quite a smart officer, has gone too far in defending the honor of the uniform, but the argument "About the money" will be launched necessarily.


Leningrad Navy, Kronstadt. None of the same ship




“Where would the money come from for what you are offering here?” We believed, and it turned out that the collapse could not be avoided, the allocated money would not be enough to maintain the combat readiness of the Navy. " Arguments of such a plan always come up.

It is worth once and for all to debunk them, if only because they are untenable, not only in fact, but even logically.

Yes, money for military shipbuilding was allocated in insufficient quantities. Yes, even the money that was allocated came with constant delays. Yes, it was impossible to keep the available number of ships in the ranks. That's right.

But the matter is different - with all of the above money for the fleet, albeit insufficient, were allocated and even mastered. They were not just given - they were even spent. The question is how. And from the answer to this question all claims follow.

Let's deal with this in more detail.

How much did the fleet spend on surface ships and what did it end up with?

First, let's list the projects of warships that went into the series (auxiliary, rear vessels, etc., we don’t take - we’ll dwell on warships, and some, to simplify understanding of the issue).

So, over the past decade and a half, the Navy has laid and received the following warships:

- frigates of the project 11356, 3 units - we will further exclude them from consideration. Building these ships for fleet It turned out to be a necessary measure, and with all the minuses of this decision, it allowed to have at least some forces in the Black Sea Fleet. If not for this, then in fact the Black Sea Fleet would have two running patrol boats, useless unarmed rubbish of Project 22160 and non-navigable missile gunboats of Project 21631. Of course, it was worth paying more attention to the anti-submarine capabilities of these frigates - now they are inferior to their "grandparents" - class frigates "Talwar" for India, and very much inferior. But such ships are better than none;

- the frigates of the project 22350, 1 are handed over, 3 is in construction, they can lay more - without comment, a project that saves the country, with all its flaws. And having a high combat value;

- 20380 project corvettes - 6 units delivered, 4 in construction. A very controversial project, the head ship was unsuccessful, further alterations began, however, the last corvette can already be considered brought to mind. Almost everything works and almost as it should, but something is just perfect. The project needs a certain modernization, after which it will become a quite good fighting ship. So far, the hypothetical modernized 20380 is the only ship that Russia can pawn and build relatively massively, and with stable funding and re-laying ships where they have already been built, it is possible to increase the speed of construction;

- Corvette project 20385, 1 on trial, 1 in construction. Much more powerful ship than 20380, albeit more expensive. In shock armament surpasses the frigate 11356. On antisubmarine - at large distances, too, exceeds, about the SJC and there is nothing to say. A somewhat controversial project, and too expensive, but potentially (if everything works as it should) having a high combat value;

- “perekorvet-nedofregat” project 20386, 1 in construction. Already inflicted the country's defenses serious harm may not be built ever. At least in its current form (according to rumors "from above", the project is now seriously being reworked to make it feasible). About him, in principle, everything is already said in two previous articles: time и two;

- MRK project 21631 "Buyan-M", 7 units handed over, 5 in construction. Strange project. On the one hand, the idea of ​​“hiding” the carriers of Caliber cruise missiles on inland waterways and in the coastal maritime zone is quite “working”. On the other hand, it was worthwhile to think about the fact that the diversity of the tasks of the Navy cannot be reduced to launching missiles against stationary targets and the “work” of the 100-mm cannon. The ships have neither air defense, nor PLO in a meaningful form, any, even the most seedy and ancient submarine can sink them in such quantity in which she will have torpedoes on board, meeting with a helicopter armed with anti-ship missiles for this ship is also deadly, about the results combat with a modern surface ship or a full-fledged attack from the air should be kept silent. Seaworthiness of the ship, in the popular language, no. Plus imported components, sanctions. The conceptual problem is that the USA’s exit from the INF Treaty deprives it of any meaning whatsoever. Soon cruise missiles can be put on car chassis;

- The 22800 “Karakurt” RTO project, 1 delivered, 1 under test, 9 in construction, 7 contracted, but not yet laid. The result of the realization that the 21631 RTO project is, firstly, a fiasco in terms of its GEM and TTH, and secondly, also an expensive fiasco (later on prices). Theoretically, Karakurt is much more successful than Buyan-M. He is seaworthy and has more diverse offensive weapon. The ship, starting with the third hull, should receive a PANZYR-M. Not to say that he was a super-weapon, but in general it is much better than a bunch of "Duet" and "Bending" on 21631. Hard cons of the ship - there is no way to defend against submarines, no. However, in the future it will be possible to invent a lightweight version of the package-NK complex and equip them with Karakurt. It will not be easy from an organizational point of view, but technically possible. In addition, a launching platform can be made from it within the framework of the network-centric approach, when its ships will be fired by other ships that do not have such missiles, but have more advanced radar systems for detecting targets. As well as 21631, the ship is a conceptual deadlock - after the USA’s exit from the INF Treaty its role as the “Kalibron bearer” becomes doubtful. But at least it can be used as a “classic” IRA. And here we have a second problem. The Navy has signed a contract for these ships, without having checked the possibility of the supplier of power plant, PJSC "Zvezda", to produce diesel engines at the right time and in the right amount. The truth came out anyway, but when it was too late. How now to steer out of the situation - it is not clear, the Zvezda will not give the diesel in the right amount, and either for a long time or never. Now the creative thought of the Navy ricochets from one rescue plan to another, from the deployment of diesel production at the Kingisepp Machine Works, which is not ready for this, until the project is reworked for the CCD, which will make the cost of its life cycle “golden”. Due to the dubious role of the IRAs as a carrier of Calibrov, the costs of the project clearly do not outweigh the benefits;

- the so-called patrol ships of the project 22160, 1 handed over, 1 on the test, 4 built. Everything was said about them, nothing to add. Absolutely useless project, it would be better if it was not. The product of mental convulsions of Admiral Chirkov and some of his then muddy relationship with industry. The only result of the presence of these ships in the ranks is that they delay personnel in peacetime, and in wartime they will kill this personnel instantly and to no avail. The appearance of this miracle has no other effects.

Let's stop on this. Until.

Every time someone says that there was no money for the fleet, you can remember this list - it was completely worth it and it costs money, which really has already been spent on it, and will be spent again.

Now we estimate the approximate cost of this shipbuilding program. This will be somewhat difficult, as it has been implemented over a long period of time, with serious inflation. The same 20380 at the beginning was worth less than 7 billion rubles, and in 2014 prices of the year already 17.

But we don’t have to count everything exactly, we need to understand approximately (with an error in 15 or 20 percent it would be quite normal), what could be obtained with this money if you could dispose of it wisely and not in the same way . Therefore, we will roughly and roughly bring prices to some general level, for example, to the level of 2014 of the year. And let's estimate the order of expenses, understanding that these prices in 2004 were completely different, and will be completely different in 2020, but since they could and could be bought “as much as a ship”, the method turns out to be quite legitimate, though not accurate.

So.

The cost of ships in our conditional prices. At the same time (IMPORTANT MOMENT) we do not touch those ships that were needed and useful without options, that is, 11356 and 22350. We believe that the money spent on them properly and do not take into account in the future, it will be clear below why.

20380. Built - 102 billion rubles, under construction - 68. It must be said that 1007 and 1008 orders are likely to be significantly more expensive even in the quoted prices, as they have a 20385 radar complex, but the order of numbers is important for us, and we can simply ignore this fact, noting that our prices are real - understated.

20385. The author did not come across estimates of the value of these ships. Accepting the sum of 20 billions with a reference above with an acceptable error, we can be completely satisfied with this figure. Thus, we assign 20 billions for “Thundering”, and the same amount for the “Agile” under construction.

20386. With this ship is ambiguity. It is not yet, and in the end, no one knows how much it will cost. There is the construction cost of this ship sounded by Severnaya Verf PJSC in the initial project - 29,6 billion rubles in 2016 prices of the year. However, this ship is part of the ongoing development work, and R & D funding goes through the development company, that is, in our case, the Almaz Central Securities and Design Bureau. This means that 29,6 does not smell billions there, and the cost of the project is much higher as a result. How many? We do not know. Evil tongues argue that the “Bold” is catching up on the cost of 22350. This is probably an exaggeration, but the fact that the cost of this ship is truly huge for a corvette, no doubt. Since we need the order of numbers, we simply leave 29 billion. We assume that they have already been spent.

21631. In September, the Ministry of Defense 2016 signed a contract with the Zelenodolsk plant for three such ships with a value of 27 billion rubles. This suggests that the cost of the ship in prices 2016 of the year - 9 billion rubles. Since we want to bring everything approximately to the prices of 2014 of the year, we reduce this price by the amount of inflation and get approximately 7,4 billion rubles per ship.

Thus, in our prices listed already built ships are 51,8 billion, and under construction - 37.

22800. Everything is unclear with them. It is known that they are cheaper than 21631, and significantly. Let us make the assumption that, in 2014 prices of the year, they would have cost 5 billion rubles per unit. Then there are two 10 billions built, 9 45 billions under construction and 7 contracted 35 billions.

22160. There is also no accurate data, there is a leak on the part of a person who has access to such information, which estimated the cost of each of the ships at about 6 billion rubles without indicating what year this figure refers to. Let us assume that to the one in which the bookmarks of these ships began, that is, to 2014. Then the already built ships cost 12 billions, and those under construction will cost another 24 billion rubles.

Total all mentioned shipbuilding program: ships already built - 237,6 billion rubles, under construction (both in high readiness and low) - 268,6 and not yet pledged, but already contracted "Karakurt" - 35. How much of the cost of ships under construction has already been spent? It is difficult to judge, well, let, for example, half.

Then we “overclock” all the received figures into two categories: already spent by the state - 371,9, the state is ready to spend - 169,45.

And all - 541,35.

Well, let 540 billion. If someone has the exact numbers, then he can repeat with them.

Now let's do a mental experiment.

Imagine a conditional combat unit - a conventional combat ship. Let it be something surpassing the price of 20380, let's say a billion by three and by the same “percentage” more efficient. For example, it is a large corvette in the dimensions of the 20380 and its GEM, with its gun, with the UBCS, with the Shtil air-defense missile system and only with serial radio electronic and radio weapons. Maybe with a hangar, and maybe not, it will not go so deeply into details. Everyone can imagine what he sees as the workhorse of the Navy as part of its concept of its application. Then, for 540 billion rubles, one could buy 27 of such conventional combat ships for 20 billions per unit, taking into account the budget utilization rates, 12 of them would have already been built, and 15 would be in different stages of readiness, or they would wait in line for bookmark.

And now the last question: what is stronger than 27 corvettes with normal weapons (100-mm gun, 16 SAM and 8 RCC, for example) or a bed unable to work together due to different seaworthiness and speed of freaks 22160 and 21631, supported by a small number of large corvettes, who are still weaker than our conventional ship? What is more useful - "Karakurt", or ships, with the same UBCS, and even can be with the same shell, but also able to fight with submarines?

The answers are obvious. Moreover, it is real, if there were no OCD heaps on all the above projects, which are also included in their cost, then it would be quite possible to scrape together three more “conditional” money and get ... five complete BMZ brigades, to 2021-2022 ! For the same money! And that would be if our ships cost 20 billions. And they could be on 15, depending on the design and the performance characteristics. Then six brigades.

All this is very approximate, of course, but even substituting for the scheme extremely precise and ideally reduced amounts to a single inflation, it would be impossible to get a different picture.

Moreover, all this is only the tip of the iceberg. A commonplace example is the Poseidon nuclear torpedo. According to the author, the project has already risen in an amount equivalent to two billion US dollars - and this despite the fact that not a single workable torpedo yet, and when (and if!) It appears, then there will be no sense from it, as already it has been said more than once, Including experts in marine underwater weapons with extensive experience serving in the Navy. But even if we discard these estimates of the cost of the project, we will not be able to discard something. The carrier of this weapon, the Khabarovsk submarine, which is under construction, will tentatively stand up for the country in 70-90 billion rubles. One boat, unable to use either cruise or ballistic missiles, almost unable to fight with torpedoes - is it too expensive in our situation? Only one boat is equal to four warships for 20 billions, and with ammunition will be equal to another brigade. And this money is also already spent.

And tankers at inflated prices? Whole broods of communications boats, and in fact - VIP yachts for admirals? And periodic statements by officials about the development of ekranoplans? How much does this development cost? And what about the ultra-expensive restructuring (the language doesn’t turn to call IT an upgrade) of the Admiral Nakhimov TAKR? Maybe it was easier to carry out upgrades, cheaper? And the main naval parade, which is even scary to imagine how much money is worth?

No money, right?

It is a lie that the problems of the Navy are connected with underfunding. There is underfunding, it is foolish to deny it, and it limits the ability to replenish the composition of the ship, and severely limits. But the main problem is not this, but the fact that the Navy naturally throws that money into the wind, which still reaches shipbuilding programs. Throws them away.

How was this possible? For a lot of reasons. The tyranny and voluntarism of the commanders (see V. Chirkov’s decision on 22160 and I. Zakharov’s approval of the 20386 project), capable of making decisions under the influence of the “urine in the head hit” factor. Corruption, allowing unscrupulous officers to "push through" deliberately populnyh projects for a fraction of the time. Illiteracy of the highest military-political leadership, not allowing to penetrate into all these issues and put the stupefied executors in place. The sabotage of foreign agents of influence, as they say, "rubbing" in this topic, and the inability of the FSB to identify and neutralize them all. The traditionally strong influence of the military-industrial complex on the military and the ability of industry commanders to push decisions that are beneficial to them (the endless use of budgets for OCD is just from there) and not the country and the fleet.

But all these problems are the product of one, the main. In our country, both in society and among government officials, there is a lack of understanding of what the navy is intended for. At best, we can state the instinctive conviction that for anything and fit, the Americans have fit. In order to understand what the fleet can give, and what does not, and there is no question. In the worst case, there will be a complete inability to understand at all the nature of the modern threats to the country and by what forces and means these threats should be parried, and how. But shipbuilding programs are a derivative of the tasks of the Navy, which in turn should be derived from the real threats and political goals of the country in the world.

This chain does not work for us, and as a result, instead of a deliberate and balanced strategy of naval construction, as a result of which we would have, if not very large, but balanced and without discounts, efficient naval forces, we observe wild disorder and wavering, throwing from project to project and the endless use of budgets by greedy commanders of the shipbuilding industry, as a result of which, instead of at least some fleet, the country has a gathering of ships that are unclear for any tasks that cannot even work together not representing mostly a threat to potential adversaries. And as a scarecrow at the top of the heap - pictures and cartoons with nuclear megaloped, apparently the most expensive pictures and cartoons in the world.

For the same money.

And all this, apparently, is not even going to end.
315 comments
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  1. +16
    April 5 2019 18: 12
    For all this mess it would be worth keeping all the sums from the pockets of those who made the decisions.
    1. +29
      April 5 2019 18: 56
      They do not take so much.
      1. +5
        April 5 2019 19: 06
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        They do not take so much.

        According to the Chinese model, you can.
        1. +2
          April 5 2019 20: 07
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          They do not take so much.

          And what? Greedy?
          1. +9
            April 5 2019 21: 27
            Nope just. They are not stolen, but spent.
            1. +5
              April 6 2019 01: 57
              Since there is no budget means spent. And how spent is another conversation. Did I understand you correctly?
              1. +2
                April 15 2019 06: 44
                Quote: YOUR
                Since there is no budget means spent. And how spent is another conversation. Did I understand you correctly?

                Yes, it’s clear that under such a government they were stolen
            2. +2
              April 8 2019 11: 15
              why are you harshly criticizing the construction of patrol ships?
              aren't they needed? Yes, in the USSR, on the borders with Norway and in the Sea of ​​Japan, there was a constant shortage of patrol ships!
              1. 0
                April 8 2019 14: 15
                The patrol tasks are legally entrusted to the FSB, the Navy simply CANNOT carry them out.
                1. +1
                  April 8 2019 14: 38
                  The FSB cannot have its own shipbuilding program, especially seagoing ships. Better move away from casuistry and return to normal arguments.
                  1. The comment was deleted.
                    1. 0
                      April 8 2019 17: 02
                      Well, about prosrali, I completely agree with the author
                      with such resources one could clearly get a decent result.
                      And encore also flooded ditched with promising decommissioning avik.
                      Here is a chic denouement.
                      Personally, I believe that the stool optimization optimized the fleet for many years. Many ship equipment development programs ended in nonsense.
                      For example, equipping a control system analogous to AEGIS is a shameful failure.
                      Equipping anti-aircraft systems at least half a failure (which is a shame),
                      equipping with location equipment - frankly wretched, engines - after many years of torment and torment only light appeared at the end of the tunnel. anti-submarine equipment over the past 20 years has stepped forward a year or two, etc.
                      1. -2
                        April 8 2019 17: 12
                        Quote: yehat
                        And encore also flooded ditched with promising decommissioning avik.
                        Here is a chic denouement.

                        The fact that they killed the float pool is not proof of the budget, and the accident confirms the presence of sloppiness, but nothing more.
                        Quote: yehat
                        equipping with location equipment - frankly wretched, engines - after many years of torment and torment only light appeared at the end of the tunnel. anti-submarine equipment over the past 20 years has stepped forward a year or two, etc.

                        Everything is relative. The topic is not for a wide range of readers and writers. IMHO custom-made article, classic Chernukha.
                      2. 0
                        April 9 2019 16: 19
                        Everything is relative.


                        Compare our hydroacoustic counteraction systems with ANY other than ours. Our remote control from torpedoes with any not ours.
                        Our antenna GAKOV with any not ours.
                        Etc.
                        Amers have had a single GTE for more than forty years; we will not have it even on 22350M.

                        And we are not concerned with PLO aviation, for example. There is a gap with the United States of approximately 80 years for detection systems.
                      3. -2
                        April 9 2019 18: 39
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        Everything is relative.


                        Compare our hydroacoustic counteraction systems with ANY other than ours. Our remote control from torpedoes with any not ours.
                        Our antenna GAKOV with any not ours.
                        Etc.
                        Amers have had a single GTE for more than forty years; we will not have it even on 22350M.

                        And we are not concerned with PLO aviation, for example. There is a gap with the United States of approximately 80 years for detection systems.

                        Yeah. And amers have jeans! fellow
                      4. 0
                        15 May 2019 17: 04
                        It smacks of frank glory. The order to drain the commander-in-chief worked for five! The result is achieved!
                  2. 0
                    April 9 2019 16: 11
                    Hello.

                    Where did 22100, 22460 come from? The normal argument is current legislation.
                  3. 0
                    April 15 2019 13: 05
                    Why can't the FSB have its own shipbuilding program?
                2. 0
                  April 8 2019 16: 50
                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  The patrol tasks are legally entrusted to the FSB, the Navy simply CANNOT carry them out.

                  Yeah. Kayaking. wassat
                  1. +1
                    April 9 2019 16: 14
                    You do not know about the existence of the Coast Guard FSB? I'm not surprised.
                    1. -2
                      April 9 2019 18: 42
                      Quote: timokhin-aa
                      You do not know about the existence of the Coast Guard FSB? I'm not surprised.

                      I am surprised that you are in the know.
        2. +3
          April 6 2019 11: 34
          We need a complete debriefing of all involved, with demotion to privates, sending to a disbat for life and confiscating the acquired. It would be better to criticize them in Chinese, with a record in the head, but Zarathustra does not allow it.
          1. +2
            April 6 2019 23: 30
            You are mistaken Sergey. The Avesta not only approves, but directly DECIDES to put such deaths:
            "... Liars (!) - people and devas
            And witches and sorcerers
            And the cavies (kings) of tyrants
            And evil carapans (lords / masters with a black soul, and this is just the case for officials-thieves) ... "

            ... All this for the happiness of all righteous people.

            And I like this way of posing the question much more than the second cheek after the first. It is time to return to true Faith.

            But the shipbuilding program was clicked at the very beginning - when they refused to localize the production of power plants (turbines, diesel engines), this is the reason. The rest is improvisation in order to have at least something.
            Now the emphasis will be on the construction of frigates, if Ahura-Mazda does not leave her mercy ... and Ardvi-Sura will not be deprived of luck.
            1. +1
              April 8 2019 16: 59
              Quote: bayard
              And I like this way of posing the question much more than the second cheek after the first. It is time to return to true Faith.

              Judging by this phrase, your true faith in the faith of demons.
              1. 0
                April 8 2019 22: 19
                Alas, my faith is Orthodox. The one about which Seraphim of Sarov spoke: "... And the true Gospel will be preached from Russia to all the peoples of the earth," and to Motovilov's question that the Gospel had been preached to all nations for a long time, he answered: "That" gospel "was preached by heretics (!) , I was talking about the TRUE GOSPEL ". Everything is very simple, our God Jesus Christ called the Jews "the sons of the devil" and taught the wicked about true faith in His Father. Remember the Magi who came to worship Him at birth. Where did they come from? How did they know about His Birth? From the Avesta! In the gata about Hvarno, it is said about His birth in great detail - that his mother will be a Virgin, that the Star will announce His Nativity, that he will preach the Law of God, that he will be killed and rise again, and that there will be His Second Coming. when He comes to judge the wicked and slays them with the sword that proceeds from the mouth ...
                This is all recorded in the Avesta (Good News) about 2000 years before Christ. So who should I believe? Egyptian tales recorded (at best by Ezra) 400 years before Christmas of the Savior of the World, or Seraphim of Sarov?
                Just read Avesta (Yasnu) yourself to make it clear. Then there will be no arguing.
                1. 0
                  April 9 2019 02: 33
                  Quote: bayard
                  Just read Avesta (Yasnu) yourself to make it clear. Then there will be no arguing.
                  All peoples have a memory of divine origin. The Russian people even had the concept of the triune deity Triglav, (Book of Veles). But only in Judea the doctrine of God was least distorted, therefore the Lord directed his Son to preach to the Jews. And about the coming of Christ, ancient Greek philosophers also knew. Not only Indian preachers.
                  Quote: bayard
                  Everything is very simple, our God Jesus Christ called the Jews "the sons of the devil" and taught the wicked about true faith in His Father.

                  Do not indiscriminately about all Jews. Christ said so about the scribes and Pharisees, but thousands of ordinary Jews believed in Christ and became Christians.
                  1. 0
                    April 9 2019 13: 52
                    Quote: Nick
                    But only in Judea, the teaching of God was least distorted,

                    Well, let's remember Pharaoh Akhenaten, who in search of "living space" invaded the land of the Canaanites, reached northern Syria and met the army of the Hittite king near Kadesh ... stopped short, wilted, entered into negotiations, made peace and left home, but ... At the same time, he asked the Hittite king for his priests, in order to carry out a reform of faith and subject his people to the True God. He even built a new capital for this, but ... he was killed by the Egyptian priests as an apostate, his memory was cursed, and the priests of the True God were expelled from the country along with the surplus population (slaves of the 12 tribes of Israel) to the Sinai desert. There, for 40 years, from the children and grandchildren of slaves, they raised and trained killer bearers for the future conquest, again, of the land of Canaan. The children of the priests were also trained under the careful guidance of the Egyptian priests. This is how Deuteronomy and the Law of Moses reformed by Egypt appeared. Those. on the basis of Zoroastrianism, its distorted version appeared - HERESY.
                    Satan is the monkey of the Lord God and does not create anything, but only perverts God's creation. So, under the leadership of the priests of Egypt, a false doctrine of God and a criminal community appeared - an analogue of modern ISIS - an instrument of Egyptian foreign policy. We recall that for several centuries this community was forbidden to have kings, and the so-called. emissaries of Egypt set up Nazarites (observers) and watched them vigilantly. When the kings did appear, the young Solomon was imposed on the wife of "Pharaoh's daughter", for which a separate palace was built (larger and much more magnificent than that of Solomon himself), into which the king himself did not dare to enter, except by special invitation.
                    All the same, prophets were sent to this people - to convict him, as a people ungodly and always unfaithful to God. It was . The rest is fairy tales for the conquered ... electorate. Evil, crafty, misanthropic tales.

                    The teaching of Jesus Christ stems from the Avesta. Yes, he himself called his sermon - the Avesta (in modern Russian - the Good News, in Greek - the Gospel). And there was nothing particularly new in His teaching; everything had already been stated before in Yasna.
                    But he adapted his sermon to the place and mentality, for he preached the Law of Life in the camp of the wicked. Therefore, He taught them SMIRENY - them, and not other nations, for the offender should be brought first to SMIRENY. But at the same time, he very clearly emphasized that His sermon was only for the DIED sheep (the humble part of society capable of correction) of the house of Israel.
                    1. 0
                      April 9 2019 14: 01
                      Therefore, for us Russians, Jesus Christ of Nazareth is our own, our own by nature and by spirit, for He is the Son of God, and we are Rasens, or "Rushen" (as we are still called in Europe), which means - SONS OF GOD.
                      Or ARII - the pious.

                      It is a mortal sin to deduce the source of the teachings of the Son of God from the crafty books of "black magic Egypt". For LIE according to the Avesta is an unforgivable sin.
                      1. 0
                        April 9 2019 18: 59
                        Quote: bayard
                        Therefore, for us Russians, Jesus Christ of Nazareth is our own, our own by nature and by spirit, for He is the Son of God, and we are Rasens, or "Rushen" (as we are still called in Europe), which means - SONS OF GOD.
                        Or ARII - the pious.

                        If you are Orthodox you should know that pride is a great sin. The sons of God are all people. And you, and me a sinner, and Ethiopians with the Papuans God created. This whole World was created by the Lord, and all people, and demons even, all are God's creations. Everything is from God.
                      2. 0
                        April 9 2019 19: 32
                        Pride is a sin, and we are all created. But the heirs of Zahaki and their slaves are the most created ... exceptional and "chosen by God."

                        For reference . Zahak was called "snake-like". And who of the kings of the earth became like a snake, called himself the son of the Serpent, drew from him "wisdom", wore the image of a serpent on his forehead? And who made the Jews in the Sinai desert worship the image of the SNAKE of copper?

                        The story about Zahak can be found in the "Book of Kings" - "Shah-Name" set forth in the verses of Ferdowsi. It is very informative and instructive ... By the way, the memory of Zakhak in the Russian oral tradition has been preserved in the image of the Serpent Gorynych. Those who have read the Avesta immediately understand this.

                        "We are lazy and incurious" ... alas ... And trusting in flattery ... by the way demonic.

                        Meanwhile, on April 23, two frigates 22350 and two large landing ships of the "Ivan Gren" type will be laid down - this is already the main topic - the articles of this forum.
                      3. -1
                        April 9 2019 20: 42
                        Quote: bayard
                        Pride is a sin, and we are all created. But the heirs of Zahaki and their slaves are the most created ... exceptional and "God's chosen"

                        Pride again ...
                        Quote: bayard
                        "We are lazy and incurious" ... alas ... And trusting in flattery ... by the way demonic.

                        Pride again. Why are you all convicted of sins. I know about my sins. Sinful and many. Recognize yours and repent of them. To convict others of sins is pride.
                        Quote: bayard
                        Meanwhile, on April 23, two frigates 22350 and two large landing ships of the "Ivan Gren" type will be laid down - this is already the main topic - the articles of this forum.

                        Truly so.
                      4. 0
                        April 9 2019 21: 35
                        Are you stuck in pride? Or "jealousy out of reason"?
                        Or jealousy about "God's chosen"?
                        If you are an Orthodox person, then I will reassure you - back in the mid-90s, an Orthodox priest blessed me to deal with this topic - a student of one of the great Russian elders. And not only blessed, but insisted on it.

                        You have a simple opportunity to check the truth or falsity of what I have written - just type in the search engine "Read Avesta" and check it yourself. Start with a dictionary of the Avestan language, it is given at the end and gives the translation and meaning of names and terms, otherwise it will be difficult. And start reading better with the last gata - the gata about Hvarno (Grace), then everything will immediately fall into place. And then you can reread the book of Daniel, the third book of Ezra, the revelation of John the Theologian (Apocalypse).
                        After reading the Avesta, it will become clear to you why John baptized (cleansed - translation from Greek) with water, and about Jesus said that He would baptize with FIRE. And what is this FIRE. What tongues of flame descended upon the apostles. Why did they have the gift to speak in different languages ​​of the Earth ... The words and parables of Jesus will become clear ... And why he spoke so often about LIES and its inadmissibility.

                        If you are a Jew, then this will also be useful to you. After all, the word Jew, translated from Egyptian, means "stranger", "not Egyptian", but your teachers and mentors - the Levites, have with us - Russians the same root and DNA code, which is not surprising, because they are descendants of those priests / magi who the Hittite king sent to help Akhenaten to convert Egypt to the True Faith, but reformatted by Egypt in the Sinai desert. Matters are old, but the root is the same, as they saw for themselves, having carried out almost complete DNA certification. The circle has closed, it's time to draw conclusions ...

                        Regards .
                      5. -1
                        April 9 2019 22: 23
                        Quote: bayard
                        If you are an Orthodox person, then I will reassure you - in the middle of the 90, I was blessed by one Orthodox priest, a student of one of the great Russian elders, to deal with this topic.

                        As an Orthodox, I read the Gospel, or listen to interpretative audio.
                        The first time I heard from you that the clergy of the Russian Orthodox Church blessed them to study Zoroastrianism and read the Avesta. I do not know the right thing to think. Maybe you were in a sect.
                      6. 0
                        April 10 2019 00: 24
                        "We are lazy and incurious" ...
                        "Graze peaceful peoples
                        You do not call freedom cry
                        Paying you from year to year
                        Yoke with rattles and a scourge!
                        A.S. Pushkin.

                        Maybe you and Seraphim of Sarov consider a sectarian?
                        Believe in theology, I will argue not only you, but also other theological professors in an honest dialogue. I mastered the Gospel, and the books of the Old Testament, and the lives of saints, and a bunch of volumes of spiritual and eschatological literature for a long time and successfully - I can teach (which, by the way, was suggested). And also the Masonic archives (the Special Archive on the Lubyanka - Anenerbo trophy) published by Platonov and Vorobievsky and much, much more.
                        If you are too lazy to strain, stay in what you have - the Gospel will definitely not teach you anything bad. I told you that the gospel of Jesus Christ comes from the Avesta, and this is true. Making sure is easy. If there is no desire - your choice, and certainly not a problem. If a person knows arithmetic and believes that this is all mathematics, then he has enough. But there is also trigonometry, integrals and the theory of large numbers. Everyone chooses for himself.
                      7. -1
                        April 10 2019 01: 02
                        Quote: bayard
                        Believe in theology, I will argue not only you, but also other theological professors in an honest dialogue. I mastered the Gospel, and the books of the Old Testament, and the lives of saints, and a bunch of volumes of spiritual and eschatological literature for a long time and successfully - I can teach (which, by the way, was suggested). And also Masonic archives (Special archive on Lubyanka - Anenerbo trophy) published by Platonov and Vorobievsky and much, much more

                        Arrogance leads to pride, and pride is the mother of many sins.
                      8. 0
                        April 10 2019 01: 32
                        Neophyte?
                        And, by the way, your pressure on "pride" speaks only ... of pride, but yours. She, believe me, and the janitor happens. No offense, I just KNOW what I'm talking about, but you DO NOT KNOW but you are talking about. And which of us is in pride?
                      9. -2
                        April 10 2019 01: 41
                        Quote: bayard
                        Neophyte?

                        Yeah, about twenty.
                        Quote: bayard
                        your pressure on "pride" speaks only ... of pride, but your

                        Condemning sin is a Christian's duty. I personally do not blame you for your sins. I dare not assume the right of our Lord.

                        Quote: bayard
                        She, believe me, happens at the janitor.

                        And here you are to the point. I work as a janitor. Trying to humble pride. Unfortunately, not always successfully. I repent.
                      10. 0
                        April 10 2019 03: 28
                        drinks
                        Yet the worst sin is LIE. For if I am proud of my homeland and do not lie to my neighbors, it is much better than HUMMY to accept a lie for the truth, or simply to humble myself before the wicked. In army regulations and instructions, words, concepts and terms with a double interpretation are not allowed, everything must be CAST IRON-CONCRETE. The concept of "pride" allows for different interpretations and thus loses its universality, reveals a SUBSTITUTION. The true meaning of this term has a sacred meaning only as "self-exaltation / self-praise", in other cases this term may not only not reflect the concept of "sin", but also have the opposite meaning. Jesus Christ SUBMITTED the criminal, "cruel" people, so that they would turn away from their evil deeds. It was for that people that pride had the meaning of the BASIC SIN.
                        But it is not for nothing that their father is named by name - "Your father the devil is a liar and the father of LIES."
                      11. -1
                        April 10 2019 17: 43
                        Quote: bayard
                        Yet the worst sin is FALSE

                        This is not for us to judge. God will determine what is the worst sin.
                        Quote: bayard
                        For if I am proud of my Homeland and do not lie to my neighbors, it is much better than SMIRING to take a lie for the truth or just humble ourselves before a wicked

                        The Lord preached to convict sin. But do not judge the sinner. Do not appropriate the rights of the Lord. Jesus taught first to take out a log, and then a knot: "Hypocrite! First take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see how to remove the speck from your brother's eye." (Matt. 7: 5) And many, including on this site, see other people's sins, but they do not notice their point blank. I am the first of them. So why should we blame others for all sins, often without proof, if many of us are sins, like a stray dog ​​in fleas?
                        Let the one who throws himself without sin be the first to cast a stone.
      2. +17
        April 5 2019 21: 18
        Very interesting article. But for the "overland" it would be very informative, when it comes to the next project, then exhibit a photograph of this ship. I hope that it will be so in the future.
        1. +4
          April 5 2019 21: 28
          Well, maybe, on the other hand, one click with the mouse and that's it. Next time I will consider.
          1. 0
            April 8 2019 11: 17
            and how do you feel about the concept of a unified series: one hull - 3 different ships (PLO, air defense, patrol)
            1. 0
              April 9 2019 16: 10
              So the question cannot be posed, the unification should not take place according to the buildings, the structure should "start" from the tasks.
              1. 0
                April 9 2019 17: 08
                we have no ocean and river tasks - only sea off the coast
                You can do the same
          2. 0
            April 8 2019 17: 00
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            Well, maybe, on the other hand, one click with the mouse and that's it. Next time I will consider.

            Better not...
      3. +8
        April 6 2019 02: 19
        For this, you can take away from others
        On April 1, the Ministry of Finance published a new version of the law on the inclusion of non-tax payments in the Tax Code. These are the following payments:

        boards with trucks weighing over 12 tons (Plato system),
        deductions of operators of a public communication network,
        resort (hotel) fee
        environmental tax
        recycling collection,
        fees for negative environmental impact.
        In turn, payments for negative impact on the environment may additionally give 5 new taxes. At a congress of the Russian Union of Industrialists and Entrepreneurs, Putin asked Finance Minister Anton Siluanov to “not rush” with the question of new taxes. However, an order was published on April 4, in which the president essentially approved the position of the Ministry of Finance.
        And you say no one to take money from.
  2. 0
    April 5 2019 18: 12
    I think that the basis of the fleet should be a couple of projects of combat surface ships of the 1 rank. The rest is spraying funds.
    1. +6
      April 5 2019 18: 45
      Quote: 210ox
      I think that the basis of the fleet should be a couple of projects of combat surface ships of the 1 rank. The rest is spraying funds.

      Hehehehe ... pomnitsa, Barabanov-Exeter, in an old post on the Soviet aircraft carrier fleet, calculated that if the USSR had limited itself to BOD and OVR ships, then instead of any trifle pr. 61 and pr. 1135 it would be possible to build an escort for 8 AUG.
      1. +16
        April 5 2019 18: 56
        It is necessary to build on the challenges. We do not understand this.
        1. +18
          April 5 2019 19: 18
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          It is necessary to build on the challenges. We do not understand this.


          They all understand.
          Man. able to reasonably remove a couple of people from participation in the State order. a dozen "wrong" (read unnecessary. not your "suppliers so that the OFAS could not undermine the mosquito's nose - very smart ...
          And they all understand.
          And everyone understands at the General Staff.
          But they follow the "party line" - the party has gone into oblivion - and the "party line" will be forever!

          They simply stuff their own pocket - on kickbacks.
        2. -11
          April 5 2019 21: 20
          And the author understands these TASKS ??? Surprisingly, however ...
          Why did the "author" leave the fleet in due time? Was not understood?
          1. -17
            April 6 2019 04: 03
            The author is a banal sofa iksperd - he only saw ships from the shore, not only didn’t be on board, did not serve, so he understands little about the life of the fleet from the inside. And with general analytics, he is still bad.
        3. -4
          April 5 2019 23: 00
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          It is necessary to build on the challenges. We do not understand this.

          It is necessary to build not on tasks, but on RESTRICTIONS, first of all,
          1) draft depth
          2) the possibility of transporting along the internal rivers of the Russian Federation - independently or at the expense of additional elements
          3) the possibility of transportation along the northern route - reinforced bottom and protection against icing
          4) helicopter landing pad - landing, not basing, including landing of uniaxial
          5) the possibility of independent ocean transport - export to other countries
          6) increased maneuverability for independent mooring (tugboats destroyed) and ice bypass (for point 3)
          1. +5
            April 6 2019 11: 51
            Quote: ProkletyiPirat
            It is not necessary to start from tasks

            The main fundamental error of many arguments. Everything else is not worth discussing.
        4. +1
          April 7 2019 05: 34
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          It is necessary to build on the challenges. We do not understand this.

          Well, why do not they understand? When the construction program for the series of frigates 22350 and corvettes was being drawn up, everything looked logical and balanced. But a fundamental mistake was made - localization of the production of power plants (turbines, diesel engines) was not provided. Apparently they wanted to save money and at the same time keep Ukrainian factories in their orbit of cooperation ... But it turned out as it turned out, and improvisation with RTOs began, replacing German diesels with unreliable Chinese ...
          Now this is in the past. Rybinsk turbines went to the consumer, Kolomna and other diesel engines were also finished / finished. And as a result - the decision to bookmark 4 more (to the four already laid down) frigates 22350 (with 24 UVP instead of 16) and the subsequent laying of 18 22350M super-frigates (7000 tons with 48 UVP on each). In addition, yesterday it was announced about the decision to bookmark in 2019 - 2020. two more large landing ships of the "Pyotr Morgunov" type and the subsequent laying of a series of improved large landing ships with a displacement of 8 tons, the design of which is now being prepared.
          That is, as soon as the problem with the power plant was solved, the updated program for the construction of ships of the main classes (frigates \ destroyers) was resumed. The next year and a half will show how successful this attempt will be. If by the end of the year the aforementioned ships begin to lay, then we are off the ground.

          And about the fact that MRK "Buyan" and "Karakurt" in the light of the death of the INF Treaty become irrelevant and unreasonably expensive, I completely agree with you. But they were not in the original program, it was a reaction to the collapse of the basic plans due to the loss of Nikolaev turbines and German diesel engines. The reaction was forced, so as not to leave the fleet without attack ships for an indefinite future.
          There is certainly enough idiocy and lobbyism, but it seems that rationality and just common sense are still beginning to take over. And this, personally to me, inspires optimism, albeit cautious.
          1. +1
            April 9 2019 22: 50
            Thank you reassured, now I’ll sleep a bit stronger. I hope you are not mistaken.
            1. +1
              April 10 2019 00: 34
              It seems that I really am not mistaken - on April 23, in the presence of Shoigu, two frigates 22350 will be laid down at Severnaya Verf, and on the same day in Kaliningrad two large landing ships of the "Ivan Gren" type will be laid ... And also today I saw a photo report on the assembly of running gearboxes at 22350 ...
              Everything seems to be getting better (in a whisper so as not to jinx it).
    2. -10
      April 5 2019 18: 55
      Large ships are expensive, the atomic destroyer 100 billion is the nominal price, they need a large crew, the maintenance costs a pretty penny, they are easy to detect and destroy. The construction of warships of small dimensions is the right decision of the Ministry of Defense and economically feasible.
      1. +37
        April 5 2019 19: 07
        Quote: Vadim237
        Large ships are expensive, the atomic destroyer 100 billion is the nominal price, they need a large crew, the maintenance costs a pretty penny, they are easy to detect and destroy. The construction of warships of small dimensions is the right decision of the Ministry of Defense and economically feasible.

        Explain, did you even read the article ?! Here you are Russian in white SW. Timokhin painted that we did not need all these wunderwafers !!! A workaholic ship is required for the OVR and PLO in coastal waters with the appropriate weapons! What atomic destroyer again ?! What for?!
        The author writes very correct things, with calculations, albeit approximate.
        Read less posts of any NEKSUS and others like them. They think by the spinal cord, for lack of a brain!
        Minus is not mine.
        PS The article is correct and necessary.
        Thank you sick author!
        1. -19
          April 5 2019 22: 37
          And I have my own opinion. "A hard worker is required for OVR and PLO in coastal waters with appropriate weapons" - This direction will be given to underwater unmanned vehicles that will be able to place mines, neutralize mines, detect submarines and attack them with torpedoes, and for everything else, let them buy what they are buying now , continue to purchase: corvettes, frigates, minesweepers, search and rescue vessels, supply vessels, tugs, submarines, etc.
        2. +3
          April 6 2019 08: 39
          Quote: Rokossovsky
          Explain, did you even read the article ?!

          Read
          Quote: Rokossovsky
          Here you are Russian in white SW. Timokhin painted

          And who is Timokhin? What side is he to the fleet?
          Quote: Rokossovsky
          The author writes very correct things, with calculations, albeit approximate.

          laughing Have you even checked these calculations?
          Of course, it was worth paying more attention to the anti-submarine capabilities of these frigates - now they are inferior to their "grandparents" - Talvar class frigates for India, and very much inferior

          Spend a little of your time and compare these projects, I promise you will be very surprised to say the least the incompetence of your idol!
          get ... five full crews of BMZ ships, to the 2021-2022 year! For the same money!

          Your Timokhin has no idea what military shipbuilding consists of !!
          tankers at inflated prices?

          Overpriced compared to what prices?
          Quote: Rokossovsky
          The article is correct and necessary.

          laughing If you like noodles on your ears, then Timokhin just for this and writes!
          PS
          Quote: Rokossovsky
          Read less posts of any NEKSUS less

          laughing good So the Nexus is Timokhin’s brother!
          1. +3
            April 6 2019 08: 59
            Great! hi but there’s nothing to smash emoticons here, write the deal!
            1. -3
              April 6 2019 09: 08
              What is the matter of Roma? Is healthy hi ! What kind of business can I write about when there is such a circus performance?
              1. +1
                April 9 2019 16: 21
                With you in the lead role laughing
      2. +4
        April 5 2019 19: 24
        Quote: Vadim237
        Large ships are expensive, the atomic destroyer 100 billion is the nominal price, they need a large crew, the maintenance costs a pretty penny, they are easy to detect and destroy. The construction of warships of small dimensions is the right decision of the Ministry of Defense and economically feasible.


        Kazan has long gone beyond 200 billion at the prices invested in it when the dollar was at 30 .... I wrote about this 3 years ago ...
        6,5 billion dollars for that money.

        with this money you can buy 4 virgins - which are no worse. if not an order of magnitude better .. In fact, if you consider everything. and types of torpedoes. and the types of GAS, and the presence of TCP and everything else ...

        with this money you could buy Bush without an air wing with all its electromagnetic catapults and finishers ...

        and we pay 6,5 lard dollars for a submarine without a weapon ...
        Pretty mediocre. for there is nothing in it from 4-5 generations.
        Nothing. Whatever the enemy had in boats - 3 generations ...
        Nothing new.
        1. +13
          April 5 2019 21: 31
          Quote: SovAr238A
          Kazan has long been released for 200 billion at prices invested in it when the dollar was at 30 ...

          Fantastic, there were no such prices there. You seem to have confused the value of the contract for the top five Ash-M :)))
          1. +1
            April 6 2019 08: 30
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Quote: SovAr238A
            Kazan has long been released for 200 billion at prices invested in it when the dollar was at 30 ...

            Fantastic, there were no such prices there. You seem to have confused the value of the contract for the top five Ash-M :)))

            no Andrey, not fiction ...
            250 billion voiced at cost estimates for Ash. The first.

            For Ash - from the backlog of the Soviet Union was made. From stocks.
            and when they reported about it, they forgot to indicate it. about that. that 99% of contractors cannot restore the production of components and components
            And Kazan did everything from scratch
            new equipment was launched for absolutely all contractors.
            Hundreds of billions were swollen. and all this went to Kazan.
            1. +5
              April 6 2019 10: 55
              Quote: SovAr238A
              250 billion voiced at cost estimates for Ash. The first.

              I wonder who? :)))) The generally accepted figure is 47 billion, you know :) For example - here http://bastion-karpenko.ru/885_severodvinsk/
              If you go to "made by us" - read
              The total cost of 7 submarines of the project 885 "Ash" exceeds 200 billion rubles. According to the sources of ITAR-TASS

              It is precisely in those old prices, when the dollar was worth 30 rubles
        2. +2
          April 6 2019 18: 23
          Quote: SovAr238A
          with this money you can buy 4 virgins

          Do virgins sell? Maybe he overslept, but contracts only for the Navy of his country are riveting virgins.
          And they won’t sell Bush either.
          The difference in the debugged production (conveyor) with the American cost of labor.
      3. +11
        April 5 2019 21: 29
        Yes I remember. The fleet should consist of missile boats and Poseidons. laughing

        I sometimes want to explain to you how it is there, in the real world, but I stop myself, it's still useless.
        1. -9
          April 5 2019 22: 52
          Our fleet should be such - so that less money for maintenance would gobble up and perform its functions - there is no need to fuck more there. "Sometimes I want to explain to you how it is there." - You serve at the headquarters of the Navy, if not, then you obviously do not tell me anything about reality - because, to everyone
          I don’t listen to Internet experts, because I know that they live outside of reality, wishful thinking.
          1. 0
            April 9 2019 09: 51
            the fleet should not take less money or more for maintenance, it should meet its objectives. Now our fleet meets the tasks very weakly.
            There is practically no fleet of the open sea, the fleet of submarines is more a headache than pride, coastal and port forces are also much smaller than is considered normal at headquarters.
            The state of the ports is extremely depressing. Syrian events have shown that the composition of the support vessels is catastrophically understaffed.
        2. +2
          April 6 2019 08: 42
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          I sometimes want to explain to you how it is there, in the real world

          It's right that you stop yourself, Alexander! Your "real world" is so fantastic that it will take your breath away! laughing
        3. 0
          April 8 2019 16: 56
          There will be a new "Tsushima", maybe they will think. Only the money will be gone. And she will be in 3-4 years, although it may be earlier. NATO is getting bolder and bolder and can easily arrange a provocation where it wins. By this time, our strategic nuclear forces will also take control. How? Just. Agents of influence and embedded will take control and that's it. "Our" oligarchs will buy "our" "commanders". Do you think NATO members are not doing this kind of work? They lead and everything is more productive. Why do I think so? It's simple - they are getting bolder, seemingly for no apparent reason. I want to be wrong on this issue.
    3. +11
      April 6 2019 06: 23
      Apparently, the problem is systemic, and it lies in the fact that design bureaus need new projects in order to live on. A new project with yet another "unparalleled" stuffing is new R&D, new technical documentation, etc.
      And imagine how they would live if they had only one massive project, well mastered by industry.
      And they have families, loans .....
    4. -4
      April 6 2019 09: 56
      Quote: 210ox
      a couple of projects of combat surface ships of the 1st rank

      You read an article telling about cutting 500 billion into small coastal ships, including river ships ...... and you propose to cut 2000 billion into TWO projects of the first rank ...... why are they? they will also be destroyed with a single missile, like Buyan M ..... so what, but the first rank is not necessary, Nakhimov and Petya and Kuzey are enough for the eyes and ears
      1. 0
        April 7 2019 18: 47
        Vladimir, you just didn’t read the article ... The author proposes to cut in black and white the same 500 billion spent on couches so that you can take a nap during fishing, on 27 corvettes that have normal armament and are capable of performing wide a list of tasks, and in combat rather than greenhouse-ideal conditions.
    5. 0
      April 8 2019 17: 41
      Quote: 210ox
      I think that the basis of the fleet should be a couple of projects of combat surface ships of the 1 rank. The rest is spraying funds.

      So think Dmitry, if not the only, but the main task of our Navy today is to protect the Coast, i.e. action in the near sea zone, in coastal seas, then as ships of the 1st rank, i.e. will the ships of the ocean zone be effective in the Baltic, or in the Black Sea? It's just not rational. To do this, you need to build patrol boats, BODs, destroyers, maybe. For operations in the Mediterranean, ships of the far sea zone such as our Atlant project may be suitable. But building them in dozens IMHO is not worth it YET.
      Now, in my opinion, adequate, sensible specialists have been selected in the leadership of the Ministry of Defense. I think they know what they are doing for the good of the motherland, based on today's realities. They should be entrusted to them, and not to discuss similar topics with amateurs, like me, on various resources. Too complicated question requiring many specific knowledge.
  3. +11
    April 5 2019 18: 17
    Revise the series "Sleepers"))
    We have it in EVERY industry.
    No way without 1937.
    1. +3
      April 5 2019 23: 22
      The decision is made closer to the Olympus, which there may already be sleeping. Sleepers crap on other levels.
  4. +21
    April 5 2019 18: 19
    And the author didn’t lie ...
    The cost of our ships has long been more expensive. than to buy abroad.
    If we begin to build Burke now, then it will come to us in 3-4 billion dollars ...
    And the state business is to blame.
    State order in which one customer and one performer.
    And all. a rotten and corrupt system.

    The one that even nuts, even asphalt, even sand. even though he dyed paint or products for the canteen — he supplied the military-industrial complex to state enterprises — he knows what to win — you need to be in share.
    Give 15-30% of the order amount to the right person. who makes decisions.

    Everything is rotten in our country ...
    Even the country's defense - no one cares.
    The fact that your children roll China or the Ukrainian - do not care ... We will not be touched - we have nuclear weapons ...
    Well, well.
    In about 5 years, they will come up with systems of a real disarming strike - and our nuclear weapons will fail.
    and then they will be touched and rolled out.
    1. +22
      April 5 2019 18: 29
      Quote: SovAr238A
      And the state business is to blame.
      State order in which one customer and one performer.
      And all. a rotten and corrupt system.

      Private business is not better - remember the story of LCS in the USA.

      It’s not a state order. The fact is that we again fell into the trap of the beginning of the last century - small-scale construction of ships with regular changes to the project a priori can not be cheap. Instead of choosing a single project and building on it a series of two dozen ships without any changes (after which the project changes - and again the series), the Navy arranges for a leapfrog of improvements, ordering 3-4-5 ships and forcing each time to establish a production chain and order equipment again.
      1. +13
        April 5 2019 18: 51
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Quote: SovAr238A
        And the state business is to blame.
        State order in which one customer and one performer.
        And all. a rotten and corrupt system.

        Private business is not better - remember the story of LCS in the USA.

        It’s not a state order. The fact is that we again fell into the trap of the beginning of the last century - small-scale construction of ships with regular changes to the project a priori can not be cheap. Instead of choosing a single project and building on it a series of two dozen ships without any changes (after which the project changes - and again the series), the Navy arranges for a leapfrog of improvements, ordering 3-4-5 ships and forcing each time to establish a production chain and order equipment again.


        It is not the Navy that is making the leapfrog of "improvements" ...
        This is a "rotten system" - it requires additional dough.
        Each project and R&D are about the same money.
        What about the corvette, what about the frigate, what about the destroyer - R&D has approximately the same order of value.
        But you can build 30 destroyers of the same series.
        one R&D.
        order a production rig for two competing shipyards, which would be done quickly until it is out of date.
        and eventually get the destroyer Burke with Weapons and Electronics - for 60 billion rubles.
        And in our state order - all weapons go separately. the entire radar - goes separately.
        And when you look at the figures of 20 billion rubles for the under-frigate, you should know. that the price of it with weapons and a BIUS at the exit is the same $ 1 billion.
        For for missiles, for radar, for CIUS by state order - they pay directly to the manufacturer.
        And when someone is Timokhin. Is it Klimov. Linnik whether. Andrey is from Chelyabinsk - they write about the cost of the ships - they have the whole component of various payments "flies away" from the actual costs.

        And why leapfrog?
        New R&D - a new loot and a new rollback.
        A new project - a new toolkit and again a new loot and a new rollback.
        All the time, new contracts in which you have to pay and pay again and again and again ... and Pay ...
        This is a system ... anti-state, thoroughly vicious.
        But so beloved by our people that in the right of power and choice.


        And yes. LCS is a very revolutionary project, with both options. Now, after 20 years, we can pick a finger in the nose, and when they developed it, I mean it, i.e. 30 years ago. could overlook ...
        if we had this, it would be more expensive than Bush ...
        1. +15
          April 5 2019 19: 02
          The fact is that the Navy does not even try to fight this system, and some of its officers are directly involved in it.
          1. -2
            April 6 2019 08: 46
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            its individual officers are directly involved in it.

            Surname, ranks, degree of participation ????
            1. +1
              April 6 2019 15: 38
              Quote: Serg65
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              its individual officers are directly involved in it.

              Surname, ranks, degree of participation ????

              I was stunned by this naivety. Do you know why after Stalin's death “his repressions and executions” remained on the surface? Yes, only because not smart, but very cunning-assed comrades made an audit in the archives. You are asking for the names of the officers, the ranks ... Can you tell me how to name the officers-advisers who have enough ships in the near sea zone? How, for example, can you go to see who has settled down to shit off the coast of Venezuela? Or express regret? And VNEU suddenly seemed to someone archaism. However, they do not bother to assert that for a ship the age of 40-50 years is the prime of life. With age, only cognac becomes stronger, and then with proper storage ...
              Do you know. It is probably worth supporting you in the thought that there are no and should not be guilty of the lack of proper military shipbuilding. Yes, in Russia, every state ruble, every state person is registered and controlled. So on March 28.03.2019, XNUMX, the guarantor (quietly, without a pump) took and awarded VIM (Matvienko) the Order of St. Andrew the First-Called ... fellow For there is nobody in Mother Russia who deserves merit and dignity more beautifully (bypass everything kingdom Our Fatherland) than the ex-Marsh JV Zits-chairman of the Federation Council. She would be engaged in retirement with her grandchildren, but no. Cannot leave Russia to external and internal arbitrariness. And the guarantor dismissed it. Equalized merit:
              In his youth, Valentina Tyutina I wanted to be a scientist morethan a politician. However she received an invitation to work in the district committee of the Komsomol and after a meeting with the rector of the institute took invitation, deciding to return to graduate school in 2-3 years. In 1985 she graduated Academy of Social Sciences under the Central Committee of the CPSU (now RANEPA), in 1991 - advanced training courses for senior diplomatic workers at the Diplomatic Academy of the USSR Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Owns Ukrainian, German, English and Greek tongues

              with the merits of Sheremetev, Peter I, Menshikov, Suvorov, Bagration, Kutuzov ... belay
              But there was a hero who, unlike Alexander the Great, broke stools, but admitted that he could not command all the armed forces on a global scale - he did not know languages ​​... request
              It is good that there are high-ranking officials in the country, under whose leadership the thief Arshukov worked, who, unlike Vasily Ivanovich, had a normal language, at least in the dashing nineties ...
            2. 0
              April 7 2019 18: 53
              Surname, ranks, degree of participation ????

              You can see the surnames in previous articles on the 20386 project, there are titles too. Degree of participation - guess for yourself.
              Yes, in principle, why do you need this? After all, admit it, you really are not interested, you would like to fulfill the report card under the new laws. I'm right?
        2. 0
          April 8 2019 10: 37
          Quote: SovAr238A
          And yes. LCS is a very revolutionary project, with both options.

          LCS is an example of how you can feed even if you have a small, cheap consumable gunboat for coastal work in the original TOR. And also that it is impossible to develop a revolutionary ship, proceeding from the fact that the enemy will not change in any way during its design and construction. Because "overlook"in the case of LCS turned around"the whole concept can be thrown into the basket, the ship is unsuitable for the main task".
      2. 0
        April 6 2019 07: 54
        Quote: Alexey RA
        It’s not a state order. The fact is that we again fell into the trap of the beginning of the last century - small-scale construction of ships with regular changes to the project a priori can not be cheap. Instead of choosing a single project and building on it a series of two dozen ships without any changes (after which the project changes - and again the series), the Navy arranges for a leapfrog of improvements, ordering 3-4-5 ships and forcing each time to establish a production chain and order equipment again.

        So what? Our fleet in peacetime has always been a "fleet of samples" (the last "correct" fleet, consisting of approximately the same type of ships, was, I recall, self-flooded in Sevastopol in 1854). That did not prevent him from turning into an exemplary fleet during the war.
      3. +3
        April 6 2019 08: 45
        Quote: Alexey RA
        The Navy arranges a leapfrog of improvements, ordering 3-4-5 ships

        Alexei, what caused this mess? I would like to hear your opinion!
        hi Приветствуем!
        1. 0
          April 6 2019 09: 53
          Quote: Serg65
          and what caused this mess?

          If without conspiracy theories, then above Cympak (Alex) indicated the reason:
          https://topwar.ru/156426-na-samom-dele-dengi-na-flot-byli-ih-dazhe-potratili.html#comment-id-9257205
          Quote: Cympak
          Apparently, the problem is systemic, and it lies in the fact that design bureaus need new projects in order to live on. A new project with yet another "unparalleled" stuffing is new R&D, new technical documentation, etc.
          And imagine how they would live if they had only one massive project, well mastered by industry.
          And they have families, loans .....

          To this it is worth adding what the military wants:
          1) those who are higher in rank want ships of a higher rank (new ranks, new salaries, new lei for measuring pi .... ami)
          2) those who are lower in rank want more ships of any quality (new ranks \ posts \ salaries)
          what manufacturers want, I think, and so it is clear ...
          1. -6
            April 6 2019 10: 09
            Quote: ProkletyiPirat
            If without conspiracy theories, then above Cympak (Alex) indicated the reason

            My dear man, leave the theory of All-Russian theft to yourself! Do you have a real answer ..... not the one to the public, but the real one?
            1. +1
              April 6 2019 11: 37
              And what does this not suit you? or is he not vital? I notice, like Cympak, I’m not talking about betrayal \ theft \ substitute_necessary is simply the wrong distribution of money and its consequences. This is a secondary reason, and there is a primary one in the form of a lack of analytical service in the Navy (and indeed in the army in principle). But this is a separate conversation on a different topic.
              1. 0
                April 6 2019 12: 49
                Quote: ProkletyiPirat
                This is a secondary reason, and there is a primary one in the form of a lack of analytical service in the Navy.

                Everything is much simpler! The fleet needs ships. The military-industrial complex cannot give what the fleet needs, it gives what it can. Chekhard due to the fact that the military-industrial complex at a certain point in the construction of ships learned to do some of what is needed or reports on the practical completion of the work on the model, so either they begin to remake the project, or build a new one for this product. Those. the Russian military-industrial complex has a hereditary disease inherited from the military-industrial complex of the USSR.
                Quote: ProkletyiPirat
                it's just the wrong distribution of money and its consequences

                Note that the construction of superprojects is mainly spoken by representatives of the military-industrial complex, while the fleet is not being turned over for this lure and is trying to choose the best option that is relevant to the current reality.
                1. +1
                  April 6 2019 14: 38
                  Notice we have a cancer swan and a pike, and the cart (budget) is not rubber.
                  Also, note, I did not say a word about the wunderwaffles, I’m just for minimizing costs due to serialization.
                  Quote: Serg65
                  The fleet needs ships. The military-industrial complex cannot give what the fleet needs, it gives what it can.

                  Namely, the high command in the Russian Navy is to blame for this, because it does not fulfill its main function in the form of long-term analytics. After all, the high uncles there are paid for beautiful exercise parades, low budget expenses, a large number of military units, and no one pays for long-term planning. Because we have no ports, no shipyards, no ships, and as soon as extra funds appear they are wasted on garbage ...
                  Well, here's a simple example of planning the development of shipyards, we have a bunch of small shipyards, they need to be closed and new shipyards (larger / more efficient / modern) built, for this we need territories. Where is the General Staff's plan for restrictions on the use of sections of the coast? no? well done! Today, in Novorossiysk, on the territory of the Tsemesskaya Bay, from the current port towards Myskhako, it would be possible to build ports / shipyards, but they will not be built since the chief architect of the city gave this territory for housing (thereby violating ultra-long-term state interests) Now, in order to organize maintenance / repair / construction of ships in this place, it is necessary to demolish the housing stock. Who will do this? private traders will send you away, the federal budget will not be used because it is not economically justified and politically suicidal. It is pointless to buy out economically, because there are a lot of individual housing construction and you will get astronomical sums and still some will refuse to sell the property. As a result, due to the fact that the generals at the headquarters were engaged in measuring pip ... sec (lances \ ships \ etc), we have no port, no shipyard, no ships. And this is the case with the entire water infrastructure. And the ships? only the lazy did not write about our "landing" ships that cannot come to the shore. About leapfrog with orders mentioned the TS. And all these problems have purely organizational and monetary reasons.
                  ps In general, I parted ways so I’d better close the topic, because there’s no sense in this, this topic has been raised many times over many times.
    2. +12
      April 5 2019 19: 10
      Quote: SovAr238A
      The cost of our ships has long been more expensive. than to buy abroad

      Road construction is not far behind - the cost of laying a kilometer of the road is 2 times higher than in Europe.
      1. +1
        April 5 2019 20: 10
        Quote: Ingvar 72
        Road construction is not far behind - the cost of laying a kilometer of the road is 2 times higher than in Europe.

        This is still modest, if we take into account how many times there are more officials in the Russian Federation in comparison / ratio with Europe.
        1. +3
          April 5 2019 21: 31
          Is it more?

          We just have severe climatic conditions, to build something from the point of view of a Western person is just a disaster.

          In the same Canada, everything is more expensive than in neighboring US for the same reason.
          1. +4
            April 6 2019 07: 16
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            We just have severe climatic conditions

            Is Finland easier? wink
            1. -1
              April 6 2019 16: 19
              Look at the population density of Finland, Canada, which areas?
        2. 0
          April 5 2019 22: 31
          Quote: Separ DNR
          This is still modest, if we take into account how many times there are more officials in the Russian Federation in comparison / ratio with Europe.

          Well, don't :) far from more. Just according to statistics, the ratio per 1000 people. no more than in Western Europe. And in terms of the volume of work, there is more for any small or medium-sized personnel. Another thing is that there are questions about their effectiveness because either the tasks are posed according to the principle now and at once, or they are posed by tyrants and populists. And in some cases, the performer is a "power-torn". And the big question is who is worse (a cat, as you know, worse than a traitor), tyrant, populist.
      2. -3
        April 5 2019 22: 54
        What country do you live in? Their climate and natural conditions are milder than in Russia.
        1. +1
          April 6 2019 07: 16
          Quote: Vadim237
          their climate and natural conditions are milder than in Russia.

          In Finland? good
          1. +2
            April 6 2019 07: 42
            Quote: Ingvar 72
            Quote: Vadim237
            their climate and natural conditions are milder than in Russia.

            In Finland? good

            Igor, have you been banned in Google? What did you molest this Finland? Here, here:


            The minimum average annual temperature was observed in Muonio in 2010 and amounted to + 1 ° C. The highest average annual temperature was + 9 ° C in 2011 in Hyvinkää


            Quote: Ingvar 72
            Is Finland easier?

            Yes, easier. Helsinki - at the latitude of St. Petersburg, by the way. This is so, by the way wink
            1. +2
              April 6 2019 07: 53
              Quote: Consultant
              Here, here:

              Have you studied it yourself? Temperature in December to -35 gr. Roads are destroyed by the frequency of drops below-above zero.
              Quote: Consultant
              Helsinki - at the latitude of St. Petersburg, by the way

              Then why are roads in Fink better and cheaper than in St. Petersburg? wink
              1. -2
                April 6 2019 08: 07
                Quote: Ingvar 72
                Temperature in December to -35 gr

                In Norilsk, recorded a temperature of 64 degrees below zero
                Publication Date: January 30, 2014 at 08:36


                You there about "the whole country" were interested, remember.

                Quote: Ingvar 72
                Roads are destroyed by the frequency of drops below-above zero

                Well, not quite. Still water needs to be added, to increase destruction wink

                Quote: Ingvar 72
                Why are roads in Fink better and cheaper than in St. Petersburg?

                Are they better? And cheaper? A source in the studio, preferably not gazeta.ru or something like that.
                1. +3
                  April 6 2019 08: 51
                  Quote: Consultant
                  Are they better?

                  On the roads, dates are on the 21 place, and we are on the 114.
                  http://reports.weforum.org/global-competitiveness-index-2017-2018/competitiveness-rankings/#series=EOSQ057
                  And the cost is difficult to find out, it depends on many factors.
                  1. -3
                    April 6 2019 08: 52
                    Welcome hi

                    The question was for Ingvar, actually. He has a bad evidence base request

                    Quote: Mordvin 3
                    cost is difficult to know, depends on many factors

                    Thank. I know Yes
                    1. +3
                      April 6 2019 09: 01
                      Quote: Consultant
                      with evidence base bad

                      I’ll have to try hard to find the final cost under the same conditions, and even align GOSTs somehow. hi I will not interfere, argue for health. Or a bottle. wink
                      1. -2
                        April 6 2019 09: 05
                        Quote: Mordvin 3
                        I’ll have to try hard to find the final cost under the same conditions, and even align GOSTs somehow

                        Right I have a hobby - I like to put talkers in their place. And here they are like dirt request
                    2. +3
                      April 6 2019 09: 07
                      Quote: Consultant
                      The question was for Ingvar, actually. He has a bad evidence base

                      Pussycat - do you really need, or so, to trick me? wink Tupenko like that. negative At a price - comparative estimates of the cost of road construction are brought together by Nikita Krichevsky, Doctor of Economics. According to him, average cost the construction of 1 km of road in China is $ 2,2 million, in the EU - $ 6,9 million, in the US - $ 5,9 million. “In Russia, according to the Federal Target Program, the average cost per kilometer in 2010-2015. is $ 17,6 million, - he cites the figures. - At the same time, Krasnodar and Novorossiysk were built at a price of $ 32 million per 1 km. The cost of the Central Ring Road, the so-called betonka, is $ 40 million. The Moscow-Petersburg highway (from the 15th to 58th km) is $ 65 million. ” Record in this series he calls the Western High Speed ​​Diameter (WHSD) in St. Petersburg, where 1 km costs an average of $ 140 million.
                      P.S. You need this little bird on an avatar.
                      1. 0
                        April 6 2019 09: 12
                        Quote: Ingvar 72
                        Kisa

                        Vasya,

                        Quote: Ingvar 72
                        do you really need, or so, to punish me?

                        It is impossible to receive truth from you. Like a bull’s milk, for example.

                        Quote: Ingvar 72
                        the average cost of building 1 km of road in China is $ 2,2 million, in the EU - $ 6,9 million, in the USA - $ 5,9 million. In Russia ...

                        Vasya, this is about nothing.

                        For comparison, ideally, you need to take - a smooth stretch of a kilometer-long road, for example, in the same climatic, geological and other conditions.

                        And the fact that comparing shoes with cucumbers is your favorite pastime, I already know. This, Vasya, is about nothing.

                        Be scared already. Stoke the pipes.
                      2. 0
                        April 6 2019 09: 24
                        Quote: Consultant
                        It is impossible to receive truth from you. Like a bull’s milk, for example.
                        Do you have such a goal, to get the truth? As far as I know, you are only able to fast, and that is not very smart.
                        Quote: Consultant
                        For comparison, ideally, you need to take

                        Is everything smooth in Fink? Are there no mountains in China? Do not be fooled by Kitty, you seem even more wonderful than I thought of you. Although there is no limit to perfection, even in miracles, yes Kitty? wink
                      3. -2
                        April 6 2019 09: 27
                        Quote: Ingvar 72
                        As far as I know

                        You know ... a little. And bad.

                        About me - absolutely nothing at all.

                        Quote: Ingvar 72
                        Is everything smooth in Fink? Are there no mountains in China?

                        Again you are not talking about that.

                        One more time: in order to correctly compare the cost of construction, depending on the "national characteristics of the country", it is necessary to take comparable data. Which - I hinted above.

                        You do not have such data. And so all your impulse and fuse is about nothing. All request
                      4. 0
                        April 6 2019 09: 31
                        Quote: Consultant
                        About me - absolutely nothing at all.

                        The experience of communicating with you allows me to judge you as a person.
                        Quote: Consultant
                        Once again: to correctly compare the cost of construction, depending on the "national characteristics of the country"

                        Well, if you think so, here in St. Petersburg with the landscape it is many times worse than in Fink. Continue in the same spirit! good laughing
                      5. -3
                        April 6 2019 09: 35
                        Quote: Ingvar 72
                        Experience with you

                        Your an experience? Sneakers do not tell.

                        Quote: Ingvar 72
                        if you think so with us in St. Petersburg with the landscape many times worse than in Fink

                        You were interested in "the national average". And the data resulted - "on average in the country."

                        And here "Peter" - this campaign, one you understand.

                        Everything, you are already tired. Walking in circles is your style. Not mine hi
                      6. 0
                        April 6 2019 10: 01
                        Quote: Consultant
                        Sneakers do not tell.

                        Against the background of communication with you, associations with other shoes, with classic Russian, winter. wink
                        Quote: Consultant
                        You were interested in "the national average". And the data resulted - "on average in the country."

                        Well, don’t mess with Kitty, you know very well the fact that the price of the same section of the route will cost us many times more, and why it will be so, you know the same. But everyone is trying to pose as a secretary bird, but it turns out - see photo above.
                      7. -2
                        April 6 2019 10: 35
                        Quote: Ingvar 72
                        you know very well that the price of the same section of the route will cost us many times more, and why it will be so, you know the same

                        I say so, I guess about it. I can’t prove it, and you also cannot. And finish here.

                        Quote: Ingvar 72
                        trying to pose as a secretary bird

                        You are posing as yourself. You about Thomas (about how to prove your claims correctly), and you about Yeryomu about everything ...

                        Quote: Ingvar 72
                        Kisa

                        Igor, tie up. This is good advice.

                        And then I’ll stick it to you - don’t unfasten it until the end of your days. I can Yes
                      8. The comment was deleted.
                      9. +1
                        April 6 2019 16: 01
                        Quote: Ingvar 72
                        P.S. You need this little bird on an avatar.

                        It is gratifying that you give lists of construction costs and the names of objects ... good For memory, I can say that not so long ago Mikhail Evgrafovich indicated the appointment of railways in Russia. Now we can rightfully add motorways to them. But stop in the case.
                        The first one. There are birds with a beak much more powerful:

                        But we are adults, it is not appropriate for us to be measured with either beaks or lists. Since the beginning of the XXI century, I was concerned about one nuance. Why our Russian airlines don’t buy Russian planes (the Russian aviation industry can’t produce ???) and gladly invests money in Boeing and Airbus, but the tender for the construction of roads is always distributed between domestic guys who name the same amount at auctions, but in the result is completely different? And the construction time for foreign masters is much less ... belay And they will not give their money (issued for construction) to anyone. What are Finns, what are Norwegians ...
                        You are doing the right thing. As Katyusha said in "Heavenly Slow":
                        - You smear, smear ...
                      10. 0
                        April 7 2019 10: 07
                        Quote: ROSS 42
                        The first one. There are birds with a beak much more powerful:

                        laughing There it’s generally not in the beak, but in the name of the bird .... wink And you successfully brought an analogy with airplanes. hi
    3. +2
      April 6 2019 08: 51
      You say that correctly, this is patriotism, and not just what they write and chat! The main thing in Russia's troubles is the stolen officials. And most importantly, they steal the same way, in Moscow in the government, in the localities. There is no government on them.
  5. +4
    April 5 2019 18: 28
    Fair article! It is strange that the leaders of the Navy do not understand the banal things ...
    It is a pity that no one will be responsible for dispersing and mediocre use of folk remedies ... request
    1. +9
      April 5 2019 18: 42
      Greetings! hi
      Quote: ser56
      Fair article! It is strange that the leaders of the Navy do not understand the banal things ...

      So we have this problem for more than 100 years. In pursuit of the improvement of serial ships, the fleet management produces a zoo of small-scale projects, dragging out their construction and commissioning by constant changes in the projects. The second problem is that the fleet does not always accurately represent what it wants.
      Clinical case of improvement and inaccurate technical specifications - "Ivan Gren".
      1. +9
        April 5 2019 18: 59
        And besides Gren ... The same 20380. The head ship is one ship, then to Retive and Strict small mutations, then again radically other ships - and all under the same code.

        And take the transition from 21361 to 22800? Well, is that all that was? What was the logic there? Immediately it was not clear that we have a fleet of the Navy, and therefore the ships should be able to walk on the sea? Tin.
        1. +7
          April 5 2019 19: 11
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          And besides Gren ...
          I think Gren is just a monument to tyranny of our admirals. For 10 years they built, rebuilt, ditched a lot of money, and at the exit they got an absolutely outdated project, in a series of two ships. At the same time, there are still no other projects, therefore, taking into account the wear and tear of our paratroopers, it was worth putting them into the normal series, even in this version, and not dreaming of UDC and others
          1. +6
            April 5 2019 21: 32
            There problems begin at the level of the hull lines - unsuccessful.
            Although a couple of pieces are apparently built, the BDK on the Syrian express train is dragged out, there will soon be a massive failure, something needs to be changed, but there are no normal projects ...
            We will see Grenov still a lot, I think.
          2. +4
            April 6 2019 06: 38
            What are the requirements, such is the result. During the construction, they still managed to change the requirements.
            According to the idea, this BDK was also supposed to be able to transfer between the seas along the internal river routes, plus the requirement for the landing of troops from the ramp to the shore ..... I just want to exclaim after the famous character Leskov: "Tell the sovereign that the British do not have guns with bricks clean! "
        2. +4
          April 5 2019 21: 26
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          It was not immediately clear that we had a fleet of the Navy, and therefore ships should be able to navigate the sea?

          Well, as far as I remember 21361 was created for the Caspian flotilla, and there are slightly different requirements.
          1. +3
            April 5 2019 21: 54
            Yes, for the Caspian. The question is - why did it do so. And the question is not idle. There have been good macs 21630. Just for the Caspian.

            The need to base a rocket carrier on the basis of this project, to put it mildly, is not obvious.
            1. +2
              April 5 2019 22: 29
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              to say the least, the missile carrier is not obvious.

              Well, this is just understandable - the need to have a platform for the Kyrgyz Republic.
            2. +1
              April 6 2019 06: 44
              In the Volga delta, you can hide such a boat well. In general, a skerry missile boat. And the fact that he was driven to the Mediterranean Sea and the Atlantic, so the admirals had nothing else, but needed a "Syrian experience." You can't build a career today without him.
        3. -1
          April 8 2019 10: 51
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          And take the transition from 21361 to 22800? Well, is that what happened? What was the logic there? It was not immediately clear that we had a fleet of the Navy, and therefore ships should be able to navigate the sea?

          That's just where everything is clear. First, there was an artillery boat for the Caspian Sea, project 21630. Then they decided to make the Caspian Flotilla a regional bogeyman - and to speed up the construction they sawed a "caliber carrier" in the hull of the serial IAC, again for the Caspian. And then they decided that the same project would not be superfluous for the Baltic. That is, initially the boat was made for closed seas. Middle-earth and inter-naval crossings were not planned then - for this, 11356 and 22350 were built.
      2. +3
        April 6 2019 08: 54
        Quote: Alexey RA
        The second problem is that the fleet does not always accurately represent what it wants.

        laughing How can the fleet imagine what it wants? I want this! We can't do that! What can you do? Here we can! So this is yesterday, I don't need it! Okay, okay, let's try to do what you want! Under "this", what the fleet wants, they make a hull, it's time to insert "this" into the hull. Hey, where is "this"? Right now, right now, we're almost done! A year later ... oh, sorry, well we could not recourse
        And how can the fleet be?
        1. -1
          April 6 2019 16: 13
          Quote: Serg65
          And how can the fleet imagine what he wants? I want this one! Not we can not! What can you do? Here we can! So this is yesterday, I don’t need it!

          You know perfectly well who in Russia determines the military doctrine, and who is engaged in the analysis of the forces of a likely enemy and is working out the required arsenal for confrontation (retaliatory move). Imagine, some general (from there) announces a breakthrough through the Kerch Strait. And in response, we push the horde to the shores of Venezuela and conduct joint exercises for carrier-based aviation and the interaction of assault groups on the coast ... belay
          However, on a six-row boat or a gallery there, how long to teleport there ... request
          I believe that the galley rowers consider their ship to be the fastest, because they sit in the hold with their "companions" and when they are shown the submarine's sinking, they say that it sank ... belay
    2. +7
      April 5 2019 18: 53
      Quote: ser56
      Fair article! It is strange that the leaders of the Navy do not understand the banal things ...
      It is a pity that no one will be responsible for dispersing and mediocre use of folk remedies ... request


      Who said. what do not understand?
      They understand everything - and they consciously cultivate it all!
      everything comes from them.
      Who pays and dances a girl ...
      1. -2
        April 6 2019 10: 21
        Quote: SovAr238A
        Who pays and dances a girl ...

        Your experience of visiting entertainment venues me a little!
        Quote: SovAr238A
        They understand everything - and they consciously cultivate it all!
        everything comes from them.

        Do you have proof of your words? Not BLA-BLA-BLA, but real evidence with last names, documents, numbers? So far, I see only the cultivation of false denunciations and the desire to rock the situation!
        1. +2
          April 6 2019 14: 52
          Quote: Serg65
          Quote: SovAr238A
          Who pays and dances a girl ...

          Your experience of visiting entertainment venues me a little!
          Quote: SovAr238A
          They understand everything - and they consciously cultivate it all!
          everything comes from them.

          Do you have proof of your words? Not BLA-BLA-BLA, but real evidence with last names, documents, numbers? So far, I see only the cultivation of false denunciations and the desire to rock the situation!


          Have you ever participated in public procurement as a bidder?
          Have you seen how nuts worth 8 rubles (with Leroy Merlin) are sold by a single authorized supplier (out of 20 unacceptable) at the maximum bid price of 45 rubles?
          And this is provided that Leroyka has a 100% margin on brackets.
          not the manufacturing plant of nuts won, but the court company.

          and I can give hundreds of such examples. because he worked when it was in state order.

          When Ulyanovsk Aviastar buys ordinary self-assembled computers from only one Moscow company for 10 consecutive years at a price 2 times higher than the market ...

          See government procurement practice.
          Everything is there.
          If you want, you can find a lot of interesting things.

          And what are the last names?
          Am I in a healthy mind to let myself bleed and everything is derailed?
          Am I suicidal in your opinion?
    3. +4
      April 5 2019 23: 53
      There is a grain of truth ... But one nuance has not been revealed .... Engines. All throwing and long-term construction, as well as part of the OCD can be explained by the lack of domestic engines. For most of these projects, there was import substitution of engines. Except the patrolman. This is not a denunciation / I myself can not justify anything.
  6. -2
    April 5 2019 18: 42
    Not horse feed, in short. Sailors can’t organize military training properly (yesterday’s article), nor can they use the money to buy materiel (today’s).
    What follows from this? That's right, it's time to start saving hard on them. Keep in a black body. So that aviation and SV can develop normally.
    1. +16
      April 5 2019 18: 58
      Quote: Spade
      What follows from this? That's right, it's time to start saving hard on them. Keep in a black body. So that aviation and SV can develop normally.

      Heh heh heh ... and in response, the sailors will roll up the same article about the mess in the Air Force. laughing
      And everything will be remembered there: both the parallel order of the Su-30SM, Su-30M2 and Su-35S, and the parallel order of the Mi-28, Ka-52 and Mi-35, and attack aircraft without URO, and the marvelous composition of the air regiments, taking 22 as an example giap.
      It has three squadrons. One of them is armed with MiG-31, the other is Su-27SM and Su-30M2, the third is Su-35S and Su-30SM.

      And if they fit into the affairs of 224 LO ...
      1. -3
        April 5 2019 19: 23
        Quote: Alexey RA
        Heh heh heh ... and in response, the sailors will roll up the same article about the mess in the Air Force.

        They have it even more. But without the air force. unlike the fleet, you can’t do without it.
        1. +4
          April 5 2019 21: 34
          Without the fleet, too, is impossible.

          For example, a simultaneous revolution in Iran, such as the 2009 of the year, but the successful and blockade of the Dardanelles cut off our grouping in Syria and from the supply by sea, and from the supply by air.

          What to do in this situation? Nuclear war start?
          1. +9
            April 5 2019 22: 01
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            What to do in this situation? Nuclear war start?

            No, in the Straits, the Marine Corps to land Performing the eternal ball of Russian tsars. 8))))))))))))))))))) However, this will also lead to a nuclear war with 100% probability. So what can immediately begin with it, skipping the intermediate steps?
            1. +2
              April 5 2019 22: 03
              Can it be easier to have heels of light frigates?
              1. +8
                April 5 2019 22: 15
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                Can it be easier to have heels of light frigates?

                But are there such light frigates that five of them are capable of destroying the Turkish fleet along with the UBO there?
                Well, okay, the Turkish Navy, the Air Force and the army were destroyed by five frigates, then .... That's right, all the shobla with the United States at the head of this will not be happy at all, with all the consequences. The Crimean War once started because of much less ...
                So again, a nuclear war in which five super-frigates will not help.
        2. 0
          April 8 2019 10: 53
          Quote: Spade
          But without the air force. unlike the fleet, you can’t do without it.

          As long as the fleet carries 40% of strategic nuclear weapons, you cannot do without a fleet.
          1. -1
            April 8 2019 11: 37
            Quote: Alexey RA
            As long as the fleet carries 40% of strategic nuclear weapons, you cannot do without a fleet.

            You can’t do without submarines, but ships in a real war are useless, although they could be useful!
    2. +12
      April 5 2019 19: 00
      No, it means it's time to restore order. Beat where is weak. If Russia is strong on earth and more or less in the sky, and at sea rickets, then they will beat us on the sea. No one will climb where we pitch him.
      1. +2
        April 5 2019 19: 28
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        then they will hit us by sea.

        They may come by sea. But the infantry will have to meet the enemy. And not super expensive and useless naval.
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        No one will climb to where we pile on him.

        Where is it?
        No, of course, you can shower with hats, but they say there are less infantry in the Western District than in the Polish army.
        1. +3
          April 5 2019 21: 35
          Can come and by sea. But the enemy will have to meet the infantry.


          The enemy cut the SMP during the northern delivery. As an example. And here is the infantry?

          Poland has no border with Russia, only Kaliningrad, and it is connected with the Russian Federation by sea.
          1. +2
            April 5 2019 22: 05
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            Poland and the Russian Federation have no border

            But Poland, together with the Baltic states, will decide to seize Peter ... And it has great chances to do it. After all, we not only have little infantry, it is worse armed.
            1. -2
              April 8 2019 10: 37
              made fun of)))
    3. +7
      April 5 2019 21: 53
      Quote: Spade
      Not horse feed, in short. Sailors can’t organize military training properly (yesterday’s article), nor can they use the money to buy materiel (today’s).
      What follows from this? That's right, it's time to start saving hard on them. Keep in a black body. So that aviation and SV can develop normally.

      Well, yes!)) "Crowds" of Armat and SU-57))
      I see straight flocks of A100 and other Boomerangs))
      The money will go "in the sand", in any case, with the existing model of management ((What is happening with the Fleet is another example that is happening in ALL spheres.
      1. +3
        April 5 2019 22: 08
        Quote: The Siberian Barber
        Well, yes!)) "Crowds" of Armat and SU-57))
        I see straight flocks of A100 and other Boomerangs))
        The money will go "in the sand", in any case, with the existing model of management ((

        Well, not everything will leave, at least something will remain for those who, unlike the fleet, are really fighting.
        For example, artillery officers will finally not be forced to carry out automation for their money.
        1. +1
          April 5 2019 22: 23
          .For example, artillery officers will finally not be forced to carry out automation at their own expense.

          Shocking example belay
          If such precedents are a fact, then in the current system, a reduction in allocations to the fleet will not solve the problem. There are other reasons.
          Ck money was poured into Roscosmos, and degradation at the exit
    4. +1
      April 6 2019 08: 57
      Quote: Spade
      That's right, it's time to start saving hard on them.

      I would say more radically .... DOLLY FLEET, GIVE TANKS !!! laughing drinks
  7. +10
    April 5 2019 18: 46
    One in One History of the RI Fleet
    1. +12
      April 5 2019 19: 00
      Farce is based on the tragedy, but as if this farce again did not end in tragedy.
      1. +5
        April 5 2019 19: 10
        And it’s as if they don’t see the rake
    2. +3
      April 6 2019 12: 24
      What is the fleet here, then the whole story coincides.))
    3. 0
      April 7 2019 19: 05
      One in One History of the RI Fleet

      Accelerated at times, I hope to wait for the denouement for a long time. The other day I went to the store and realized that I had nothing special to lose besides my shackles, despite the fact that I was not used to counting myself poor, but rather a person with limited income ...
    4. 0
      April 10 2019 13: 09
      Only then did they try to build the main striking force of the fleet in series - that of the Catherines, that of the later EBRs of the Poltava and Borodino, that of the battleships of the Empress and Sevastopoli, that the unfinished Izmail. And the smaller "Noviks" and "Diana" were not built in 1-2 pieces. And now, alas, and that is not.
  8. +14
    April 5 2019 19: 02
    As for all kinds of wunderwaffes - everything is simple. If you have the opportunity to get at least some parity by mirror means - this will be the priority in execution. For less risk. Even if the approach fails in real conditions, then the enemy also fails. When parity with mirror means is impossible in principle - workarounds, high-risk projects, various alternatives are sought. For there is no other way out.

    As for 20380 - up to 1007, 1008 and 2104, there are still air defense issues under a big question, in real conditions. For there is the same Furke.

    About 21631 - they built what it was. I mean, there was a platform where everyone is on the ointment. So they built it. Initially, only for the Caspian by the way. It was then that the additional contracts went to them.

    In Karakurt - Typhoon-Sovetsk-Mercury, only now received power. Year stood occupying the wall of Pella. Behind him still 2 stand waiting. At the same time, Pella is now a priority recipient of power from the Star, in the Gulf and the Sea they will wait until the end of 20.

    According to 22160 - it came out of the desire / need to perform additional tasks by the Navy. The author criticizes the project, but forgets that due to the lack of an alternative, the tasks were carried out by the most lively (so as not to disgrace the fleet) - ships from the Navy, as a result:
    - One of the newest BNK 1 rank - Admiral Chabanenko died. Since 2014, it has been in the factory. Awaiting final decision. Moreover, the decision on the type, drag to the cemetery, now has a significant probability crying .
    - one of the most popular and active TFRs - Undaunted, almost died. WITH 2014 year stands in the factory. It seems they promise before the end of this year to push on the chassis and surrender the fleet to 2020 year.
    - the most modern TFR - Yaroslav the Wise, almost flew to Chabanenko, burned a turbine and only actively lobbying the commander in chief, saved the ship from leaving for 5 + years for repair. His turbine ahead of the line was repaired, the result of 1 + 1,5 of the year was knocked out.
    - all BODs burned a precious resource, some of them crashed to 2-3 of the year for repairs, some crashed now.

    Are these ships worth 36 billion rubles that there is nothing to replace? Can we consider further, for example, the cost of a weekly hike 22160 and BOD? For unusual tasks - such as pirates, poachers, escorting "friends", displaying the flag in the Papuans and other trips - their effectiveness is identical. This is a ship for the world. In war, it is useless. However, he is able to save real warships - for war.


    To push the PLO into each vessel is unrealistic. Shove a little Pack (torpedoes) - you also need to shove a HACK, preferably a complex one (antenna in the nose or padding fairing + BUGAS). With all this, Karakurt / Toothy Buyan - they will drown themselves, without any intrigues of enemies. So we need to increase the displacement and voila we already have 2038X laughing . Or reduce the number of percussion weapons / air defense and then 056 / modern version of the Albatross. However, to make everything in one and it was cheap, at river shipyards = this is not yet possible.

    Again, if you take the Chinese, then they have 056. PLO is provided by an antenna in the nose fairing and BUGAS + anti-submarine aircraft, including giving the Z9 anti-submarine helicopter for temporary base (there are fuel reserves on the corvette, but there is no helicopter hangar - only for UAVs). The defeat of boats is provided by 2 batteries of light torpedoes Yu-7 (a la MK46). However, they reasonably considered that the corvette would operate in its waters or act as part of a ship group with frigates and destroyers. Therefore, the SAM - light a la RIM-116 on 8 missiles. And shock weapons in the form of 2x2 YJ-83 (improved Exoset). And the gun 76mm. And the radar is simple. But everything is reliable, cheap, only 1350-1400 tons, and almost any Chinese shipyard can build this simple boat. The result is ~ 50 ships over 5 years.

    But then again, if you put the UCCS, put the human air defense (PU + radar) - then in the end 20385 will come out.
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. +6
        April 5 2019 19: 38
        Fleet - implements decisions of the political leadership.
        The political leadership said - power must be shown! It is necessary to be noted in this operation!
        The fleet - said to eat and reluctantly began to send the most lively and the best ships (for if it breaks in Aden - it will be a shame for the whole world).

        However, the fleet in fact could not refuse to fulfill the order of the highest political leadership. And so that in the future, such an order does not bury the remains of a large fleet - they spent moderate money - on a rather limited order for probable shipyards (in Zelenodolsk no sea corvettes can be built because they will not pass along the Volga-Don). That is, even if you give these 36 billion to the Amursky / Severnaya Verf shipyard, you won’t receive the corvette at the 2 exit in an adequate time, because the line and everything is jammed at those plants.
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. +6
          April 5 2019 21: 41
          Google Bunga Mas Lima - Malaysian anti-piracy ship. What prevented also to do?
          Britons generally go to drive pirates on integrated supply ships! A large platform, pitching it without a difference, there is enough space inside ...

          In general, the educational program.
          For ocean patrols and anti-piracy actions
          https://topwar.ru/151455-chemodany-bez-ruchek-vmf-pokupaet-seriju-absoljutno-bespoleznyh-korablej.html

          More cheap option as it was necessary to do, instead of slaughter BOD

          https://topwar.ru/151633-legalizacija-chvk-i-morskaja-bezopasnost.html

          And that's all. A non-combat ship in a Navy combat unit is an oxymoron, it is built on the last money instead of a combat one - 100% of state treason.
          1. +5
            April 6 2019 08: 19
            Bunga Mas Lima - we don’t build such ships in our place crying . Moreover, if you order, you will have to take a scarce place at the sea shipyard (Severnaya / Amur / Yantar = -1 frigate / corvette). If you buy both for the Syrian express, it will fall apart. 3 or 4 times the purchased dishes were dragged home in tow. Now it works like 1 and 1 after repair comes out. The rest are dead.
            Also - the problem in the cost of the trip remains.

            In terms of shaving, it’s similar, well, there are no such ships in the Navy. To the KIL (the most unnecessary of the availability), the pad cannot be fastened quickly.

            PMCs - this is the level of Mongolia. No, this is the most cost-effective rebuff option. Freight 2 parachodic yachts. One is located at the entrance to the danger zone, the second at the exit. Each parachute boat has 5-10 PMC teams. From one they plunged onto a tanker - they spent it - they got off on boat No. 2, then into a return ship on a container ship and how much they could fit. However, the muscles of the sea do not show. Do not make a plot - we returned to the oceans and are useful there!

            But - this ship can still be useful in peacetime. So he will save at least some resources at BNK 1 rank. And yes, what else could Zelenodolsk build on 38 billion? Buyanov? So they are scolded in the article! Or rook a pack? Focus on the shipyard. Even if you give 100500 billion to the North Shipyard now - you won’t get more ships, because all the places are occupied.
      2. +2
        April 6 2019 11: 19
        hi Hello my friend!
        Quote from rudolf
        Timokhin is right and the article is correct.

        what And what is he right about?
        1. The comment was deleted.
          1. The comment was deleted.
            1. 0
              April 6 2019 12: 36
              Quote from rudolf
              Patrol ships, as well as RTOs, are the destiny of either very rich states or very poor.

              laughing Eco you wrapped! But the Soviet RTOs are from poverty or from wealth? Well, or Golden Eagles, these from what?
              Quote from rudolf
              the order of patrol ships amid the general degradation of the fleet is a crime

              Somehow I do not agree, you know IWR is practically bleeding to nothing.
              Quote from rudolf
              because ship traffic flying the Russian flag past Somalia is immeasurable? Not! I just really wanted to continue to be known as an ocean power.

              And do you know that from 2010 to 2017, pirates captured an 74 Russian citizen?
              Quote from rudolf
              The fact that money could be used more rationally and thoughtfully

              It was possible, Rudik, I do not argue, but for this it was necessary to close our eyes to South Ossetia, Crimea, Donbass, Syria, not to rock the boat with pipelines! In the meantime, it’s feigned to kneel before the Americans and recreate your military-industrial complex in Tihari, maybe it would work .... but I'm not sure.
              1. The comment was deleted.
                1. +1
                  April 6 2019 14: 09
                  Quote from rudolf
                  The Soviet Union could afford this class of ships, we do not

                  Oh Rudolph, the story of the creation of RTOs is much more prosaic! RTOs were adopted not because of the wealth of the USSR, but because of the insolvency of the military-industrial complex to give the fleet a missile ship of 1 or 2 rank at the end of 60's and the entire period of 70's, the story of the birth of Berkutoa is the same! Those. history made 8 and Buyans and Karakurts were born!
                  Quote from rudolf
                  It is for OVR that there should be normal corvettes

                  Which ones do you think?
                  Quote from rudolf
                  not these surrogates.

                  Honestly, why is it that I’ve never heard so boldly Impudent! No, well, of course, screams that this ugly duckling reached me, but what is it ugly about?
                  Quote from rudolf
                  Regarding the pirates ... so these patrols all the same for what tasks?

                  Yes, the same as the Albatrosses, only slightly expanded.
                  Quote from rudolf
                  Anti-piracy operations in the ocean zone or OVR?

                  laughing No, well, if you want, I can tell you about the Albatross service in the Gulf of Aden, the Red Sea, the Mediterranean .... fascinating stories, I will tell you!
                  Quote from rudolf
                  Serge buddy, and Ossetia and the Crimea with it?

                  My friend, do you look at the GEM 11356, 20380, 20385, 20350 and where did these GEMs go after Ossetia and especially Crimea. I foresee your question
                  Quote from rudolf
                  And think about it before?

                  I think they thought, but ships were needed now, and not when industry gives birth to anything. The Ukrainian crisis has spurred industrialists at times, and there not only the power plant was freezing, but also a bunch of other gadgets.
                  Quote from rudolf
                  With corvettes, we must begin to build a fleet, only with corvettes

                  I don’t even argue!
                  PS
                  Rudik, if everything was as simple as Timokhin writes, then a couple of three shipbuilders and a dozen admirals plant and we will be happy! But everything is much more complicated and does not rest on Timokhinsky "facts" !!!
                  1. The comment was deleted.
                    1. +1
                      April 6 2019 23: 22
                      20386 is already being designed for a new one. According to rumors with Almaz, Zakharov eventually got a hat for this project and now he has a new GK.
                      This will not make the undertaking useful, but at least it will become realizable (maybe).

                      Concerning the GEM. GEM are engines and a gearbox. The latter are made in our country by Zvezda-Reduktor, the daughter of Zvezda. And there are the same problems as with 507 diesels. Only DDA6000 can do fast, with a pair of "Kolomn", which goes to 22160, not fast, but stable DDA12000 with four "Kolomnas". Everything else is done for several years per unit. Plus, in March, the exodus of personnel from the gear production began. In general, everything is not easy. In theory, now it is necessary to order sets of 15 DDA12000 and, in the course of the play, decide how to remake 20380, and then lay it down so that the units would already be ready for them. But this will certainly not happen.

                      There is a separate program from the GPV - the stamped "Shipbuilding Program until 2050". But she's just another paper cadaver, apparently. Maybe now Mukhametshin is initiating an audit. We will see.
                2. +1
                  April 8 2019 11: 31
                  Quote from rudolf
                  Perhaps as the development of the IPC. There are no ships with balanced weapons and a lower displacement. Not for us, now specialized.

                  everything is. there would be a desire like you above,
                  Quote from rudolf
                  already allocated money
    2. +1
      April 8 2019 11: 25
      Quote: donavi49
      To push the PLO into each vessel is unrealistic. Shove a little Pack (torpedoes) - you also need to shove a HACK, preferably a complex one (antenna in the nose or padding fairing + BUGAS). With all this, Karakurt / Toothy Buyan - they will drown themselves, without any intrigues of enemies. So it is necessary to increase the displacement and voila we have already 2038X. Or reduce the number of percussion weapons / air defense and then 056 / the modern version of Albatross. However, to make everything in one and it was cheap, at river shipyards = this is not yet possible.

      Well, why? Everything is much simpler and more obvious than you want to introduce to others here.

      Quote: donavi49
      But then again, if you put the UCCS, put the human air defense (PU + radar) - then in the end 20385 will come out.

      It's not true, my friend. For a long time there has been a quite successful and balanced working project of a corvette for providing PLO in BMZ - 11661-K (E), the experience of fast construction of which the Zelenodolsk plant has (and is building it for other orders). In addition, he has leased the power of the Kerch "Zaliv" (These are two factories in fact !!) If the Navy ordered and built ships for specific goals and objectives, then in terms of the balance of its weapons and cost, to replace the aging Albatrosses , it would be more logical for the fleet to order exactly "Cheetahs" on the same power plant as 20380 (DDA-12000) and with the same GAK, and the fleet would receive each unit of the PLO corvette by 4-6 billion, cheaper than 20380 (and in terms of balance weapons for performing their direct functions are better, and at the same time cheaper, so the Osa-M air defense system is quite enough there, and there is a 533 mm TA for hunting submarines, and UKSK)!? But it is clear that no one needs it and is not interested.
      1. 0
        April 8 2019 14: 09
        For a long time there has been quite a successful and balanced working project of a corvette for providing PLO in BMZ, - 11661-K (E), the experience of rapid construction of which has the Zelenodolsk plant (and is quite building for other orders). In addition, he has leased the power of the Kerch "Gulf" (This is already two factories in fact !!) If the Navy ordered and built ships for specific goals and objectives, then in terms of the balance of its weapons and cost, to replace the aging Albatrosses , it would be more logical for the fleet to order exactly "Cheetahs" at the same power plant as 20380 (DDA-12000) and with the same GAK, and the fleet would receive each unit of the PLO corvette by 4-6 billion, cheaper than 20380


        And there is such a project. And he even has a number.

        But instead, we will have an idol on the stocks - 20386. One and forever.
  9. +8
    April 5 2019 19: 12
    An absolutely depressing article. If you do not recall all the shameful cases of "stubborn" building of the fleet, then it will go. Correctly the author noted all this leapfrog and constant planning-replanning. And there is no one to blame. Do you know who to ask for such a low rate?
    There was money for the fleet. They were even spent ...

    I don’t know about money for the fleet, but there were definitely pension money. And military pensioners were promised appropriate compensation. But, as you can see, there is no such area of ​​activity in Russia, there is no such budget line that did not lie around ... stop noble gentlemen, corrupt officials, wherever they steal at least a thousand state money. As for the parades, this is a very necessary matter. Only funny ... When against dangerous razor tank AUG semi-order of the ships of the near sea zone ...
    Admiral Putin knows best, he knows everything ... belay
  10. +1
    April 5 2019 19: 18
    Project 20380 corvettes - 6 units delivered, 4 under construction. A very controversial project, the lead ship was unsuccessful, further alterations began, however, the last corvette can already be considered brought to mind


    this is a real story

    Then, for 540 billion rubles, it would be possible to buy 27 such conventional warships at 20 billion per unit, taking into account the pace of budget development, 12 of them would have already been built, and another 15 would have been in different stages of readiness, or they had been waiting in line for bookmark.


    this is an alternative story that does not take into account the simple: the need to spend 10 years to bring to mind the initial project
    almost childish logical error: from where in the Russian Federation in 2000, conditionally, will a project of such high quality be taken so that it can be reproduced for another quarter of a century without significant changes?

    Remember the history of Soviet tank building of the 30s: in your opinion, the only purpose of endless searches in the form of all kinds of "Turtles" was only the desire to cut R&D? Or do you think that only Comrade Stalin's desire to stir up a grand drank was the reason that the USSR did not start producing T-34-85 right away from the first five-year plan?

    Threat. I do not dispute the thesis about the delusional nature of many decisions of the leadership of our Navy and cuts, but the truth is not as simple as it seems to the author
    1. +10
      April 5 2019 19: 41
      Quote: Andrei Shmelev

      this is an alternative story that does not take into account the simple: the need to spend 10 years to bring to mind the initial project
      almost childish logical error: from where in the Russian Federation in 2000, conditionally, will a project of such high quality be taken so that it can be reproduced for another quarter of a century without significant changes?


      Your words are worthy of execution ...
      You are trying to whitewash the barbarism of our modern design school.

      I am a recent designer and yes. I did not know the history of shipbuilding before - well, it’s not my fault. give me 10 years and I will fix my project.
      Where have you been before? Why did the whole history of the Krylov Institute pass you by? Why did the history of world shipbuilding pass you by?
      as well as weapons developers. Why do not you see the history of missiles and their use? Trends in their development?
      Why do we have to pay for your "ram", which you will then be correcting for 10 years for our money?
      The same goes for radar, CIUS, and everything else ...
      Why no one in Ulyanovsk can still formulate a technical task for the analogue of Aegis?
      50 years have passed since the introduction of the terms of reference for the implementation of Aegis architecture ... 50 years is my peer.
      And we still have not a single ship standing next to such a decentralized and network-centric control system for ships and fire ...

      The history of many decades of design bureaus.
      Knowledge transfer.
      test and operation results.
      Analysis of development trends.
      Planning ahead? Where is all this?

      But no, give us 10 years to fix our stocks ...

      This is me, I need 10 years. to fix their jambs. if I start designing ships ...
      And that will be enough for me.
      But when specialized engineers sing such songs - shooting and burning a family to the seventh generation ...
      1. +1
        April 5 2019 20: 46
        your words are worthy of execution ...


        it’s just a statement of fact.

        I am a recent designer and yes. I did not know the history of shipbuilding before - well, it’s not my fault. give me 10 years and I will fix my project.


        I personally do not design ships) and my designers do not design ships either)
        the arms race of good designers in promising areas is intense

        Why do we have to pay for your "ram", which you will then be correcting for 10 years for our money?


        because there is no long-term clear state planning and development
        in the 90s there was Nothing at all
        Imagine something abstract (for example, football), where from 1988 to 2005, conditionally, for almost 20 years no one has been involved in football, everyone went to the caps to trade and (or) got drunk - where in 2005 to get at least some national team?
        with the design of the fleet, such a break will be even worse
        fools are lucky that we have few frames left in other areas: from artillery to space
    2. +7
      April 5 2019 21: 44
      almost childish logical error: from where in the Russian Federation in 2000, conditionally, will a project of such high quality be taken so that it can be reproduced for another quarter of a century without significant changes?


      Yes, there were projects then, the same "Novik" for example. There were Vietnamese 11661E and the prospect of pumping PLO with them.

      Even 20380 was, though it had to be completely recycled.

      In fact, if there is an understanding of what tasks need to be solved (and the "helmsmen" were obliged to have it), a sane project could be developed and launched into production.
      1. 0
        April 5 2019 22: 05
        In fact, if there is an understanding of what tasks need to be solved (and the "helmsmen" were obliged to have it), a sane project could be developed and launched into production.


        significantly faster and cheaper than now - it will be more correct)
        but not immediately and not cheap at first
        Yes, this is a jamb that so far they have not reached a large series - they should have laid a large series around 2015, IMHO
        1. 0
          April 5 2019 23: 06
          The events in the 2014th crossed out all these desires because we had to create part of the equipment ourselves from scratch, this process has not yet been completed.
          1. 0
            April 5 2019 23: 30
            Events in 2014 all these desires crossed out


            well, yes, crossed out, it’s like in August 1914 the Germans and the Austrians stopped, for example, supplying ball bearings - what a surprise
            head had to think and build cooperation within the Russian Federation immediately since 2005, because:
            Yes, this is a jamb that so far they have not reached a large series - they should have laid a large series around 2015, IMHO
            1. -3
              April 6 2019 10: 42
              In 2005 - it wasn’t before that at all. You look at the chronicle of those years and see what you were thinking about.
              1. 0
                April 6 2019 11: 21
                You look at the chronicle of those years and see what you were thinking about


                I’m personally about the fourth little star) I won’t remember anything else)
          2. 0
            April 8 2019 14: 14
            Right now, right now, Sinara is breaking the Star Reducer. Not complete, yes. Break - complete.

            You are like from a fairy forest of some kind, by God.
      2. 0
        April 8 2019 13: 06
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Yes, there were projects then, the same "Novik" for example. There were Vietnamese 11661E and the prospect of pumping PLO with them.

        Here, straight to the point Alexander! even easier. If you carefully consider 11661, then its first variations of projects already had attempts to develop a diesel power plant (true from German MTU, but as practice later showed, at 20385, the same "German" power plant was quite successfully replaced by the Patriotic DDA-12000, this time ! And secondly, the initial study of 11661 was planned with the Zarya State Joint-Stock Company. These are two! And the same "Dagestan" was truncated at the State Joint-Stock Company already during construction and simplified to the level of MRK). This I mean that there is just nothing special to "pump" there. In fact, the Navy has long had a balanced armament composition (quite capable) and cheaper than the 20380/5 PLO corvette project to replace the Albatross, but stubbornly does not pay attention to it. This means spending 4-6 billion more on the construction of one PLO corvette (where the air defense complex is not rationally expensive, and arguably capable, and the Packet-NK complex, not so much for hunting submarines, unlike the 533 mm TA of pr. 11661 , how much for self-defense from torpedo attacks from a submarine of a potential enemy), is it profitable for someone ?!
        Now, in fact, it is already possible to produce everything for 22350 (and allegedly Saturn is ready to mass-produce its turbines, and allegedly Polyment-Redut has been brought to mind, and Zvezda-Reductor has finally mastered gearboxes, although the low speed of their creation, in my opinion, is the greatest danger for the large-scale production of 22350), but there is no continuation of the series yet ?! There is talk that it (the series) will be continued, but there are no new "contracted" ships and new hulls bookmarks ?! So someone needs this too ?!
  11. +3
    April 5 2019 19: 35
    small salaries offset by enthusiasm in cutting budget feel
    1. 0
      April 5 2019 19: 52
      Quote: Zirkonis
      small salaries offset by enthusiasm in cutting budget feel


      And now remember the very old SOVIET anecdote:

      "The recently employed traffic policeman is called to the accounting department.
      and say to him: "Ivan Pomidorov. Why don't you get your salary for 6 months?"
      and he replies: "And here they also give zarlpat?" ...

      And think about it. where did it all come from ...

      I heard this joke in about 75-76 ... When I was going to school ...
      But then I remembered him ...
  12. -5
    April 5 2019 20: 24
    Quote: Spade
    Not in horse feed, in short. Sailors cannot organize combat training (yesterday’s article), nor can they master the money for the purchase of equipment (today's). What follows from this? That's right, it's time for them to start hard to save. Keep in black body. To aviation and SV could develop normally.

    Alexander Timokhin - obviously messed up Cossack from the Russian Aerospace Force of the Russian Federation (for taking money of the Russian Navy) laughing
    1. 0
      April 7 2019 06: 41
      Most likely just a well-read couch theorist-amateur about the fleet who knows from picture books.
  13. AAK
    +4
    April 5 2019 21: 08
    The question is, why is this article not yet on the table of the chief military prosecutor with a resolution to check and initiate criminal proceedings on each fact? Where did the "valiant" special officers of all the research institutes of the Navy, NGOs and shipyards look? By and large, the planted admirals do not even need to change their clothes, they are already in black, just pick up white T-shirts and stripes with shoulder straps to fight ...
    1. -3
      April 7 2019 06: 39
      Ask - answer. Because the article of the respected author is nothing more than the playfulness of the pen of the well-read sofa amateur theorist who did not serve in the Navy and did not know the fundamentals of naval science.
  14. -6
    April 5 2019 21: 26
    The author famously combined the couple there, divided and multiplied, and even got some result, just a magician laughing
    1. +6
      April 5 2019 21: 57
      Not everyone can multiply and add.)))
      1. NKT
        +1
        April 5 2019 23: 25
        So in the end, we now have only two more or less balanced projects, frigate 22350 and corvette 20385? How many do you think we need them to completely upgrade the fleet?

        Do we need to try to build the 22350M now, or put it off until better times and concentrate on the large 22350 series?
        Project 20385 suits us as a ship OVR?
        1. +1
          April 6 2019 00: 04
          as for me:
          20380 they are unable to switch from Baltic to black without refueling, the range of 3500 miles (6500 km) is limited with economical running, and this is when the range of Baltic-black is 9200 km! or do you think that in a combat situation someone will refuel them? Well, if you also drag a tanker along with you, it’s better to immediately kill yourself because it is guaranteed to sink. As for the modifications, I did not look at them, but now I'm too lazy.

          22350 can not cross the internal rivers, because it does not pass across the width (16m). Minimum gateway for 2017: 135 * 14,3m

          In general, both are not suitable for real combat operations, because they do not provide the possibility of concentrating military assets in the combat zone.
          1. +3
            April 6 2019 08: 06
            Either walk along the rivers and be Toothy Buyan / Karakurt, or be a sea ship, then you can’t walk along the rivers. This is a stupid nitpicking.

            Range - how much was in the technical task, so much was done. You can increase the range in 2 ways:
            - increase savings, but this is not about Kolomna diesel engines.
            - increase the fuel supply, but there is no volume for it, which means that the ship swells, increasing its length (most simply) in the 1-2 section, due to which, with the redesign of all volumes = you can shove more fuel. However, on 20385 - already increased by section.
            1. -2
              April 6 2019 09: 37
              donavi49, even the Nimitz aircraft carrier can be thrown along the internal rivers of the Russian Federation, it would be wisdom, and the rest will follow. And I'm not joking in this matter, everything is solved quite simply, you need to attach additional displacement modules to the ship, thereby reducing draft, or rather, distributing the displacement (mass of the ship) over a large area. Here the truth comes the problem of the dimensions of bridges and locks, but it is purely economic-temporary and gradually it can be solved.

              At the moment, the limitation of internal rivers is 135 * 14,3 * 3m (length * width * draft_real) is the mass of the ship + additional floats = 5791,5t, in fact, the ship itself can have a large mass and make it easier by removing the modules in the first place modules-blocks with missiles / torpedoes, secondly, these are helicopters \ boats \ boats, the third various quick-detachable equipment is not demanding to set up during installation, for example TEU-containers for additional fuel \ provisions \ beds \ weapons.
              1. 0
                April 10 2019 13: 27
                laughing Aha on rivers. In a country where 8 months of the year the river is under ice winked Or, according to intelligence, will the enemy only attack us in the summer? lol Swell billions into river expansion and then remember that we have winter.
          2. +1
            April 6 2019 13: 04
            Excuse me, how does the ability of a ship to walk on rivers affect the ability to concentrate forces in a separate theater?
            What specific rivers should Gorshkov cross from the North to the Baltic or the Black Sea?
            It is also unclear why BMZ (20380) ships wander around Europe, if we fight with it, they will easily be drowned, with or without a tanker, because the adversary will have absolute dominance in the air.
            1. 0
              April 6 2019 13: 51
              Quote: Ivanchester
              Excuse me, how does the ability of a ship to walk on rivers affect the ability to concentrate forces in a separate theater?

              you answered your own question
              Quote: Ivanchester
              wander around Europe, if we fight with it - they will easily be drowned, that with a tanker, that without

              But when transporting along the internal rivers and the SVM they will not drown, for air supremacy will be on our side.
              As for the roundabout around Europe, there the path is even less than the Northern Sea Route (CBM), because the CBM has a greater distance and fuel consumption by 1 km (+ ice bypass + heating). Therefore, by realizing the possibility of switching over CBM by automatic means, we get around Europe.
              1. 0
                April 6 2019 14: 32
                Dear ProkletyiPirat!
                My previous post was divided into paragraphs by chance - each of them is a complete thought. You should not mix them in a bunch and answer incomprehensibly what.
                I will say it again, simpler.
                1. 22350 will not be able to switch from the Northern Fleet to the Black Sea Fleet or the Baltic Fleet along inland waterways, because there are no such routes. Its width has absolutely nothing to do with it.
                2. 20380 is a ship in the NEAR marine zone. Therefore, its autonomy to solve the problems facing it is sufficient.
                And to send such a ship from the Baltic to the Black Sea around Europe in wartime can only be a fool or a traitor.
                1. -1
                  April 6 2019 15: 02
                  Dear Ivanchester, you confuse cause and effect. what you say is a consequence. The root cause is the incorrect / erroneous definition of the fundamental restrictions on the ships of the Navy. This root cause led to Corollary_1: improperly prepared TTZ for ship design. This corollary_1 led to corollary_2: the emergence of several types of ships which in the conditions of REAL military operations become useless ...
                  Quote: Ivanchester
                  22350 will not be able to switch from the Northern Fleet to the Black Sea Fleet or the Baltic Fleet along inland waterways, because there are no such ways. Its width has absolutely nothing to do with it.

                  Okay, you claim that there are no ways, I claim there are, are you ready to put money on your approval? I am yes, and in the neighboring branches I even described the transfer conditions and the current restrictions on the mass and size. After all, unlike you, I spent time and double-checked the data by myself analyzing them. If you don’t believe me yourself, then Collect information about the "Unified deep-water system of the European part of the Russian Federation" and its components "Volga-Baltic waterway", "White Sea-Baltic channel", "Volga-Don channel" and, if desired, "Volgo- Caspian waterway ".
                  Quote: Ivanchester
                  And to send such a ship from the Baltic to the Black Sea around Europe in wartime can only be a fool or a traitor.

                  In in! you yourself admit that warships cannot perform wartime tasks. Well, and then they need horseradish if they are not applicable in battle? (This is a rhetorical question)
                  1. -1
                    April 6 2019 21: 58
                    "
                    "Volga-Baltic Waterway", "White Sea-Baltic Canal", "Volga-Don Canal" and, if desired, "Volga-Caspian Waterway"

                    Well, tell me which of the above paths can a frigate use to leave the Barents Sea, and I will take my words back.
                    In in! you yourself admit that warships cannot perform wartime tasks.

                    Do not distort! You two posts above stated that 20380 is an unsuccessful project due to insufficient range. I said that for the inter-theater transition in wartime its autonomy does not play a role, because this task is a priori absurd and impossible. Even the cruiser of the 1144 project, in which the range is not limited at all, will not solve it.
                    And now you are trying to attribute to my words a completely different meaning. hi
                    1. +1
                      April 7 2019 12: 55
                      Quote: Ivanchester
                      Do not distort! You two posts above stated that 20380 is an unsuccessful project due to insufficient range. I said that for the inter-theater transition in wartime its autonomy does not play a role, because this task is a priori absurd and impossible.

                      So you do not distort, I have already described earlier Why I consider these projects unsuccessful, moreover, I described how the projects could be corrected in order to get this very "why". here is the link to the post. read the second paragraph https://topwar.ru/156426-na-samom-dele-dengi-na-flot-byli-ih-dazhe-potratili.html#comment-id-9257532

                      As for the list of restrictions (that is, the very root cause), it was described in this post https://topwar.ru/156426-na-samom-dele-dengi-na-flot-byli-ih-dazhe-potratili.html# comment-id-9256995
                      It is necessary to build not on tasks, but on RESTRICTIONS, first of all,
                      1) draft depth
                      2) the possibility of transporting along the internal rivers of the Russian Federation - independently or at the expense of additional elements
                      3) the possibility of transportation along the northern route - reinforced bottom and protection against icing
                      4) helicopter landing pad - landing, not basing, including landing of uniaxial
                      5) the possibility of independent ocean transport - export to other countries
                      6) increased maneuverability for independent mooring (tugboats destroyed) and ice bypass (for point 3)

                      If these restrictions are not met, then any enemy will have a numerical superiority due to the fragmentation of our forces and meansor we’ll have to spend 5 times more resources in order to have 5 times more ships, which is clearly not an option. If you consider it reasonable to have a fleet that is not applicable in reality because of its fragmentation, then you are a fool.
                      1. -2
                        April 8 2019 09: 51
                        Just answer two questions "yes" or "no".
                        1. Is there a river / canal / stream through which the 22350 frigate can cross from the Barents Sea to the Baltic?
                        2. Can the 20380 corvette make the transition in time of war from the Baltic to the Black Sea without taking into account the fuel limit?

                        If the answers to both questions are "no", then find the courage not to spin a snake in a pan, but to admit that in a post
                        as for me:
                        20380 are unable to switch from Baltic to black without refueling, the range of 3500 miles (6500 km) is limited during economical running, and this is when the range is black-black in 9200 km! or do you think that in a combat situation someone will refuel them? Well, if you also drag a tanker along with you, it’s better to immediately kill yourself because it is guaranteed to sink. As for the modifications, I did not look at them, but now I'm too lazy.

                        22350 cannot cross inland rivers, because it does not pass in width (16m). Minimum gateway on 2017: 135 * 14,3

                        In general, both are not suitable for real combat operations, because they do not provide the possibility of concentrating military assets in the combat zone.


                        You froze outright nonsense.

                        It is not necessary to build on tasks ...

                        It's powerful. To build ships of the "river-sea" class, which will be capable of "independent oceanic transfer".
                        I think that at this stage, our dispute can be ended, because I am not able to perceive your progressive ideas without a smile.
                        smile
                      2. 0
                        April 8 2019 11: 25
                        Put you a minus for what you
                        1) do not read my posts
                        2) trying to troll me, for example, once again asking a question in the style of a logical fork yes / no. If you do not understand what I mean, I remind you in the post from "April 6, 2019 00:04" I pointed out the shortcomings of projects 22350, 20380, then you redo my post into your own question that you are addressing me. Further, I tried to enlighten you by clarifying my point of view, to which you repeat the same trolling technique again.
                        Quote: Ivanchester
                        It's powerful. To build ships of the "river-sea" class, which will be capable of "independent oceanic transfer".

                        Trolling again, I already described and gave links to how an ocean-class ship can be thrown along inland rivers, even described the current limitations on the weight and size of such a vessel. I remind you it was in the post from "April 6, 2019 09:37"
                      3. -1
                        April 8 2019 21: 41
                        Quote: ProkletyiPirat

                        Trolling again, I already described and gave links to how an ocean-class ship can be thrown along inland rivers, even described the current limitations on the weight and size of such a vessel. I remind you it was in the post from "April 6, 2019 09:37"


                        You don’t even know that very often in the Yaroslavl region the Volga is becoming shallow so that a 3-deck river ship cannot pass.
                        and navigation is stopped for them.
                        And you try to overtake corvettes ...

                        Teach the materiel real and not Wikipedia.
                      4. +1
                        April 8 2019 23: 05
                        Quote: SovAr238A
                        You don’t even know that very often in the Yaroslavl region the Volga is becoming shallow so that a 3-deck river ship cannot pass.
                        and navigation is stopped for them.
                        And you try to overtake corvettes ...

                        dachshunds, but how much should it be? but how shallow? and what are the minimum records recorded? did you recognize no? again just verbal diarrhea in order to show his wisdom? drum roll, officially, with a draft of up to 4,5 m, vessels must pass (according to the Unified Land Transport Test), in fact, in the Azov zone, shallowing is 4m, on the rivers, shallowing is up to 3m, but even these 3m were caused in addition to drought by a violation of river sand production. But in any case, this is insignificant because in the voiced method you can make a draft at least 2m, at least 1m, at least 0,5m. Just add the displacement modules, and yes you again confirmed my words that you are not reading my posts, otherwise you would not have confused the movement under your own power at the ship and towing the platform with the load (ocean vessel + modules).
                      5. +1
                        April 8 2019 15: 48
                        Quote: Ivanchester
                        1. Is there a river / canal / stream through which the 22350 frigate can cross from the Barents Sea to the Baltic?

                        And this:
                        Quote: Ivanchester
                        Its width has absolutely nothing to do with it.

                        take into account?
                    2. +1
                      April 8 2019 15: 44
                      Quote: Ivanchester
                      Well, tell me which of the above paths can a frigate use to leave the Barents Sea, and I will take my words back.

                      Do not route yourself?

                      Let me tell you: from Barents to White ...
                      1. -2
                        April 8 2019 16: 53
                        My friend, you would have learned a materiel before you uncovered so pathetically.

                        1. The transition from the Barents Sea to the White Sea is no longer inland waters.
                        2. Draft "Gorshkova" - 4.5 m according to the project. In fact, most likely. And the guaranteed depth, for example, of the White Sea-Baltic Canal is only 4 m.
                      2. +1
                        April 8 2019 20: 35
                        You are on the bulb precipitate measure something and not on the keel.

                        On Bulbu even 20380 7,5 meters. Transition by air routes for serious warships is impossible.
                      3. +1
                        April 8 2019 20: 37
                        Quote: Ivanchester
                        1. The transition from the Barents Sea to the White Sea is no longer inland waters.
                        2. Draft "Gorshkova" - 4.5 m according to the project. In fact, most likely. And the guaranteed depth, for example, of the White Sea-Baltic Canal is only 4 m.

                        And what does all this have to do with it?
                        Quote: Ivanchester
                        22350 will not be able to go from SF to BF or BF on inland waterways, because there are no such ways. Its width has absolutely nothing to do with it.

                        Whose text is it?
                        There are ways! And then the excuses about the Barents Sea, draft, etc ....
                        And you really don’t know how to reduce the draft of the ship?
                        But width is a problem. But...
                        Quote: Ivanchester
                        width has absolutely nothing to do with it.
                      4. -1
                        April 9 2019 00: 47
                        My text, there are ways - they are simply not internal. Do not believe me - open the geography tutorial for the 8 class wink
                      5. 0
                        April 9 2019 08: 00
                        Quote: Ivanchester
                        they’re just not internal. Do not believe me - open the geography textbook for grade 8

                        If they are not internal, then on the territory of what other countries, except Russia, pass?
                      6. -1
                        April 9 2019 12: 16
                        Naturally, they do not pass through the territories of other countries.
                        Simply, inland waterways are certain rivers, lakes and reservoirs through which navigation can be carried out (the exact list is in the relevant government decree).
                        No seas belong to them.
                      7. 0
                        April 9 2019 12: 21
                        Quote: Ivanchester
                        Simply, inland waterways are certain rivers, lakes and reservoirs through which navigation can be carried out (the exact list is in the relevant government decree).
                        No seas belong to them.

                        Well? How does this relate to:
                        Quote: Ivanchester
                        cannot move from the Northern Fleet to the Black Sea Fleet or Baltic Fleet along inland waterways, because there are no such routes.

                        Do you, in general, understand the meaning of what you write?
                      8. 0
                        April 9 2019 12: 40
                        Yes, I write that near the bases of the Northern Fleet there are no rivers / lakes / reservoirs along which its ships could pass to the Baltic or the Black Sea, even if they were the narrow ice-class punts that ProkletyiPirat dreams of.
                        And for some reason you cannot comprehend such a simple thought.
                      9. 0
                        April 9 2019 12: 57
                        Quote: Ivanchester
                        Yes, I write that near the bases of the Northern Fleet there are no rivers / lakes / reservoirs along which its ships could pass to the Baltic or the Black Sea, even if they were the narrow ice-class punts that ProkletyiPirat dreams of.

                        OK! A narrow ice-class punt emerges from Severodvinsk, through the Dvinskaya Bay to Onega, then along the White Sea-Baltic Canal to Lake Onega. There are two ways from there:
                        1. By Svir to Lake Ladoga, then along the Neva to the Neva Bay, then to the Gulf of Finland. Here is the BF.
                        2. On the Volga-Baltic Canal, across the lake. White in the Rybinsk reservoir. Then along the Volga to Volgograd, from it along the Volga-Don canal to the Don, along the Don to the Sea of ​​Azov. Here is the BSF.
                      10. 0
                        April 9 2019 13: 04
                        This is all good, but the Northern Fleet is not based in Severodvinsk.
                        In order to get his ships there, it is necessary to make a transition from Severomorsk or another base of the Kola Peninsula, for which it is necessary to use non-inland waterways.

                        PS It would be interesting to learn the tactics of using punts if vile enemies attack in the winter.
                      11. 0
                        April 9 2019 13: 25
                        Quote: Ivanchester
                        This is all good, but the Northern Fleet is not based in Severodvinsk.

                        Quote: Ivanchester
                        in order to get there his ships must make the transition from Severomorsk or another base of the Kola Peninsula

                        And why only the Kola Peninsula? It was about:
                        Quote: Ivanchester
                        will not be able to go from SF to BF or BF on inland waterways, because there are no such ways.

                        Where is it about the Kola Peninsula or the Barents Sea?
                        home items Northern Fleet: Murmansk, Gadzhievo, Polyarny, Vidyaevo, Zaozersk, Severodvinsk...
                        You just merge now, saying that the transition from the Barents Sea to the White is not an inland waterway! All this is sophistry and demagogy! Since nothing like this was in your initial statement:
                        Quote: Ivanchester
                        by inland waterways because there are no such ways.

                        Something was refuted! Further disagreement with you is meaningless, since you are going into children's bickering ...
                        hi
                      12. +1
                        April 8 2019 23: 16
                        Quote: Ivanchester
                        1. The transition from the Barents Sea to the White Sea is no longer inland waters.

                        fool indicate where there are foreign \ international waters, poke your finger, otherwise I am blind and I am not friends with cards lol
                        Quote: Ivanchester
                        2. Draft "Gorshkova" - 4.5 m according to the project. In fact, most likely. And the guaranteed depth, for example, of the White Sea-Baltic Canal is only 4 m.

                        Depth is not a problem since draft can be reduced by additional displacement modules, therefore the dimensions of the locks are the main limitation. In the case of the bow of the ship there, although there is more sediment on the bulb, there is more space for the floats.
                2. -1
                  April 7 2019 06: 34
                  Do not be offended by amateurs ... Can you imagine a boat sent even from the Baltic to the Black Sea Fleet in the prewar period? At best, wrapped up - at worst, either captured or drowned. It's like Rezun, in his historical distortions, was going to scare Hitler with the Danube flotilla in 1941, its breakthrough to the pipelines of Romania. The effect will be the same, but in the GMH there were no fools even then, and now no.
                3. +1
                  April 8 2019 15: 31
                  Quote: Ivanchester
                  1. 22350 will not be able to switch from the Northern Fleet to the Black Sea Fleet or Baltic Fleet along inland waterways, because there are no such routes.

                  What grade did you have at your geography school? Or are you a victim of the exam?
                  White Sea-Baltic Canal, Volga-Baltic Canal, North Dvina Canal, Canal named after Moscow, the Volga-Don Canal ... do these names mean nothing to you?
        2. 0
          April 6 2019 23: 11
          I will express my amateurish opinion.
          Do we need to try to build the 22350M now, or put it off until better times and concentrate on the large 22350 series?

          Of course until better times. It is necessary to build 22350, especially if the problem with Polement-Redoubt is really solved.
          Project 20385 suits us as a ship OVR?

          Rather, after all, 20380 with the Zaslon radar. The author also suggested that he replace the main missile system with the "Caliber" in inclined installations - it seems to me also an interesting idea.
          1. -3
            April 7 2019 06: 29
            It is amateurish opinion, it is amateurish, and therefore unprofessional, suitable for HE, but no more.
            1. +1
              April 7 2019 10: 29
              It is amateurish opinion, it is amateurish, and therefore unprofessional, suitable for HE, but no more.

              Do you have something to add as a professional? No? Then please keep your amateurish opinion to yourself, especially about my opinion.

              And the fact that the program for building the surface fleet in Russia failed miserably is obvious even to an amateur just watching the topic. As well as the fact that when it became obvious that there were serious problems, strange and actually ineffective measures were taken, which later also failed.
              1. -1
                April 7 2019 18: 51
                Don't you think that the opinion of an amateur, and you positioned yourself in this way, not I you, is not the truth even in the first approximation? For a benign analysis of "failure" or "victory", you need to own the full set of all data, factors not only open sources, but also many other things, except for purely military and geopolitical, economic, intelligence, etc. This is available only to a very limited number of professionals. Everything else is billiards for naive VO readers. Moreover, the author, with all due respect to his well-read, really has nothing to do with the Navy. everyone should give advice according to their level of competence. Neither you, nor the esteemed author, nor enthusiastic commentators, have designed a single ship, have not launched, armed, tested, and hardly ever been on the deck or combat posts at all, that is, your level of competence is close to zero.
                1. 0
                  April 7 2019 19: 39
                  But doesn’t it seem to you that the opinion of the amateur, and you have positioned yourself that way, is not I you, is not truth even in the first approximation?

                  But what is truth? (with)

                  You see what’s the matter. There are situations in which it is impossible to understand without special knowledge, but there are those in which everything is obvious even to amateurs. When the already not so large naval composition of the fleet is reduced many times and there is nothing obvious to replace this reduction that things are bad without secret intelligence. When in this situation the shipbuilding program is carried out one third of what is declared, it is not necessary to have top-secret data in order to understand that something is going wrong. And you don’t have to talk your teeth, translating the conversation into personalities, professionalism, experience in testing ships and service.
                  1. -2
                    April 8 2019 05: 25
                    Dear amateur! You reason naively, well, just laughter parses! The number of troughs in the DPRK fleet exceeds, if I’m not mistaken, almost the US fleet, and much exceeds the number of the Russian fleet. Well, so what? The fleet and army are good when they are balanced, when all the ships are functional, when the fleets correspond to the tasks and goals of the command and the geopolitical goals of governments. The Navy and the Army of Russia are now in the process of rearmament, reconstruction, and this process in no way has the right to undermine the state’s economy, as it had already happened in history. The army and navy of Russia are not created by amateurs. This process is rightly not transparent. It reminds me of the compilation of a picture, a puzzle, of individual particles, and, of course, to an outside observer the manifesting part of the picture at first glance seems worn, incomprehensible, even absurd. But this is far from the case. The new Army, Navy and Russian Aerospace Forces rose like a Phoenix from the ashes of Yeltsinism and Seryukovism. They rebelled and rebel not by magic. This is a great and long-term job. Work is not for amateurs, but for professionals. they are the ones who put together the whole picture from separate mosaics. The time will come and you will see and evaluate it all. Teeth to you, respectful, I do not speak. Rather, it is the task of the author of the articles - an amateur, who has gathered information (not knowledge) from open sources, but information is not knowledge. But naval affairs is a science based precisely on the basis of laws and their knowledge. And the information of a person who does not have a special education, did not serve in the Navy, does not have access to real planning, taking into account all factors, is simply inferior and cannot serve as a solid basis for analytics. I have the honor!
                    1. +2
                      April 8 2019 09: 06
                      Quote: LeonidL
                      the lot and the army are good when they are balanced, when all the ships are functional, when the fleets meet the tasks and goals of the command and the geopolitical goals of governments

                      AND? Does the Russian fleet meet this requirement?

                      And the information of a person who does not have a special education, did not serve in the Navy, does not have access to real planning, taking into account all factors, is simply inferior and cannot serve as a solid basis for analytics

                      The authors of VO give the reasoning for their words. Moreover, they rely on easily verifiable facts. Your only fact throughout our correspondence is "all amateurs". Be healthy. There is essentially nothing to talk to you about.
                      1. -3
                        April 9 2019 04: 28
                        Mutually! Stay with your own. Especially amused by your sentiment "The authors of the VO argue their words. Moreover, they rely on easily verifiable facts." What is easy to check for a real analyst has no value, it lies on the public surface, the most interesting is always hidden from the eyes of amateurs and special services of foreign states.
                      2. 0
                        April 9 2019 09: 23
                        What is easy to verify for a real analyst has no value

                        But just the same and no. If the conclusions obtained by the "real analyst" contradict easily verifiable and lying on the surface facts, and the analyst is unable to give any explanation for this (well, except you are all amateurs and do not understand anything), then most likely the analyst is just a liar.

                        And yes, you wrote about higher mathematics somewhere ... So, if the answer to the problem obtained by the methods of higher mathematics contradicts the laws of arithmetic, it means that the conclusion is incorrect and there is an error somewhere along the way.
          2. +1
            April 8 2019 18: 32
            Quote: alexmach
            Project 20385 suits us as a ship OVR?

            Rather, after all, 20380 with the Zaslon radar. The author also suggested that he replace the main missile system with the "Caliber" in inclined installations - it seems to me also an interesting idea.

            however a little expensive ...
            1. 0
              April 8 2019 19: 26
              By 20386 there are engines for the Cheetahs - not yet. You need to build what you can build. And besides, the ship is multifunctional.
              1. +1
                April 8 2019 20: 20
                Quote: alexmach

                By 20386 there are engines for the Cheetahs - not yet. You need to build what you can build. And besides, the ship is multifunctional.

                Alas, not quite so. Rather, the opposite is true. By 20386 there is (moreover, only the opportunity) to produce GTE M90FR (which, moreover, due to their low assembly speed by "Saturn", are much more needed and in demand for DGTA M55R units at the power plant of project 22350) and there is not a single ready-made gearbox 6 RP (for 20386) !!! But for the "Cheetahs" it is quite possible to use the DDA-12000 power plant (which was quite "tested" for itself on pr. 20380/5, and the Kolomna diesel engines of which it consists are created much faster) !!!
                And of course, it will be possible to speak about the "multifunctionality" of the 20386 project only after at least one of the 20386 passes the GI and is transferred to the fleet. So far, all its "functionality" is hypothetical and advertising assumptions with an overpriced price !!
                1. 0
                  April 8 2019 22: 43
                  But for "Cheetahs" it is quite possible to use the power plant DDA-12000 (which was quite "tested" for itself on pr. 20380/5, and the Kolomna diesel engines of which it consists are created much faster) !!!

                  I was wrong, I meant 20380. But the "Cheetahs" are just on the turbines. I hear about the possibility of installing a diesel engine there for the first time.

                  As for 20386, I agree that it is too early to talk about anything at all.
                  1. -1
                    April 8 2019 23: 24
                    Quote: alexmach
                    But for "Cheetahs" it is quite possible to use the power plant DDA-12000 (which was quite "tested" for itself on pr. 20380/5, and the Kolomna diesel engines of which it consists are created much faster) !!!

                    I was wrong, I meant 20380. But the "Cheetahs" are just on the turbines. I hear about the possibility of installing a diesel engine there for the first time.


                    Perhaps you just "weren't interested enough" .... but - project 11661E "Gepard-3.9" According to reports on the website of the Zelenodolsk plant dated 2011, the ship uses "unlike a gas turbine, an economical diesel power plant" - probably a twin-shaft diesel-diesel plant of the CODAD type, consisting of 4 diesel engines MTU with a capacity of 4700 hp. or combinations of 2 x 3300 hp + 2 x 6500 hp diesel engines operating through complex gearboxes for two shafts and two fixed-pitch propellers (FSP)... (this is for inf. http://militaryrussia.ru/blog/topic-438.html). By the way, similar power plants were planned for 20385, but then "in the light of the imposed sanctions" and forced import substitution, on project 20385, they began to "engraft" the domestic power plant DDA-12000, from the previously mastered project 20380. And this year, similar information (about the possibility of building ships of the project 11661-K with a diesel diesel power plant, began to appear on the website float.com.) with reference to information from the same JSC Zelenodolsk Shipbuilding Plant ...
                    Then you add 2 plus 2 on your own, and ... and it is also possible to compare the cost of 20380 (even steeper than 20385) and 11661-K, and come to a conclusion about what would be more logical to replace "Albatrosses"?, And how -
                    Quote from rudolf
                    :
                    already allocated money
                    ...
                    Tell me, can I help you with anything else?
        3. 0
          April 8 2019 15: 34
          Quote: NKT
          So in the end, we now have only two more or less balanced projects, frigate 22350 and corvette 20385? How many do you think we need them to completely upgrade the fleet?
          In the first case, yes (22350) and the series should be continued for 6-7 units. minimum starting to lay now. In the second case (20385) no. This means overpaying for the PLO corvette in BMZ (OVR if it is more convenient for you) from about 4-6 (this is pr. 20380) to 9-10 billion rubles. (this is pr. 20385) for each unit, in comparison with pr. 11661 (E) ?! Those. You can calculate the direct losses of the Navy for the construction of two brigades (12 corvettes) yourself.
      2. -1
        April 7 2019 06: 27
        You are right, but besides multiplication, addition, subtraction and division, there is also higher mathematics, differential and integral calculations ... there is much more that an educated person needs to know. Likewise, naval science is a science, not verbal balancing acted upon by data gathered from open sources. In addition, dear author, I must guess that in addition to open sources with TTX there are also closed ones, which should not be disclosed to satisfy the delights of non-professionals.
        1. -1
          April 7 2019 19: 26
          Oh yeah ... According to closed sources, Russian stealth tanks have long been on the White House lawn and are just waiting for a signal from the Kremlin when it will be possible to uncover their weapons. Finish playing as a child. Now is a different time and information is available to us not only domestic, but also foreign specialists. And this is not counting those who were some time ago directly involved in the operation of this or that type of weapons. There were a lot of those on VO before, and their comments were often worth much more than the articles about which they spoke. But I digress. If you compare this information with each other, you can get a completely plausible picture of the world (with the only proviso that we are talking about those personalities who know what they are talking about, and not about tabloid publications), which, as a rule, only 2 to 10% percent differs from what was originally stated. In general, if I can give you one piece of advice, Leonid: I don’t know if you have read it, but they say in one popular book (directly the bestseller of the last two millennia) literally the following is written: “ask and it will be given to you; seek and find it; knock and open for you, for everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. " It all depends only on how much you are ready to seek and how much you are ready to accept what you find. Sometimes the light of truth is so bright that it is capable of blinding, and therefore we are indistinguishable from darkness.
          1. -1
            April 8 2019 05: 29
            Mr. Dante, you are by no means Virgil on a journey along an unfamiliar path for you. Well, I don’t understand why the boots are so torn by naval specialists!
  15. +2
    April 5 2019 22: 11
    Article is correct
    In their heads confusion and vacillation: "where to go?" Well, or purposeful sabotage, as an option ..
    1. -11
      April 5 2019 23: 15
      Going to the future - and it is behind high-speed hydrofoil fighting ships, ekranosletami and supersonic seaplanes of different dimensions and mass. With the development of rocket technology, a ship is the most vulnerable unit of military equipment, although how many weapons you poke on it, it will not save it - it will be sunk 100 percent.
      1. 0
        April 6 2019 00: 25
        Wormholes are not applicable in the real sea due to restrictions on sea swell, the same problems with hydrofoils. Plus, neither one nor the other can not perform constant PLO.
        PLO, in principle, can be performed with just three methods (sorted in order of increasing efficiency)
        1) airplanes with disposable buoys - expensive (disposable buoys), difficult (data collection and adjustment), cannot always fly
        2) ships with GAS - long transfer, susceptibility to attack
        3) aircraft carriers with PLO helicopters, or the same helicopters at bases along the coast
        4) aircraft + helicopter hybrids as transporters for reusable robotic platforms with GAS
        1. -6
          April 6 2019 11: 01
          At least the functions of a submarine can be taken by both a seaplane and an ekranolet - they don’t care about the sea; they can fly, take off and land not necessarily from the water. And so much better are autonomous underwater vehicles equipped with torpedoes and land mines: invisibility, long time on combat duty, lack of crew, low cost in comparison with ships, as well as minimal maintenance costs and so on and the so-called fear of the sniper factor - the enemy knows that these devices are there and there are many, how many no one knows exactly where they are, and the same - that is why the enemy will keep his submarines on the border of the zone of responsibility, like submarine fighters.
          1. +4
            April 6 2019 12: 01
            Vadim you are poorly informed in this area. and you are not very good with logic.
            Firstly, seaplanes and ekranoplanes, both in terms of performance and cost, are guaranteed to lose to conventional PLO aircraft based on civil aviation, which is why there is no sense in them.
            Secondly, one-time buoys are expensive, IT IS VERY EXPENSIVE and the more effective the detection is, the more expensive it is.
            Thirdly, the voiced by you submarine fighters have a significant drawback, they can not be controlled. There is no corny technology for transmitting information.
            Fourth) submarine fighters are not trivial due to the fact that missile torpedoes are more effective both in terms of performance and cost.
            Fifth) instead of underwater robots, it’s more profitable to build an underwater border from special bottom platforms powered by underwater cables, but in a war this is not profitable due to the fact that they are easily detected and destroyed by submarines
            If we compare these points with those voiced earlier, they are either worse than ships with a GAS or at the same level, and therefore did not get on the list in the top post
            1. 0
              April 7 2019 19: 43
              Sergey, say everything correctly. But I’m afraid that to paraphrase the classic: labor is in vain - you won’t educate them, the more patriotic they are, the dumber they are, civilization is a fetish for them, but the hut with its edge is nicer to them. No matter how you pursue it, gentlemen, you will not gain recognition from the EDRA: In his eyes, you will always be not the skeleton of sovereigns, but a solid murmur.
      2. +3
        April 6 2019 00: 44
        With the development of anti-tank weapons, the tank lost its former invulnerability, let's also refuse, because it will be shot down, either from a helicopter or a unit with anti-tank guns))
        1. -4
          April 6 2019 10: 45
          The tanks will be made robotic - it’s not a pity to lose a piece of iron, but people - operators are needed alive.
          1. +3
            April 6 2019 11: 01
            How will we stop the threat from the sea with tanks?)
            Or, Balls with Bastions, a panacea?
            Do not forget about the triad) Cross out the sea component?
  16. +6
    April 5 2019 22: 25
    Revived nightmare. Abyss of projects with unfinished technology. Wherever it is necessary and not necessary, "Calibres" are crammed, etc. There is no general idea from which to restore the surface fleet. The main thing for the industry is to shove ships into the fleet, the more projects, the better, the more bonuses. The command of the Navy seems to be sitting on bribes from the industry and accepting anything. Some kind of patrol ships, not seaworthy "Buyans", the lack of domestic propulsion systems, insane prices for the construction of ships (naturally, due to various kickbacks). As such, there is no military doctrine on the actions of the Navy. Indeed, our industry and the command of the Navy must be torn apart. Well, I wrote a few chaotic. You can blame me whatever you want, but we cheerfully go to the new Tsushima.
    1. +8
      April 5 2019 23: 35
      but we are bouncy going to the new Tsushima


      lol where we are and where are the Japanese. compared. You still have a signal "The fate of the empire depends on the outcome of this battle" on the mast of "Nimitz" paint on) will be hammered in the corners and our
    2. +4
      April 6 2019 00: 46
      For Tsushima, we need a ship’s staff, at least!
    3. -7
      April 6 2019 11: 03
      The Japanese have no missile strike weapons - without it, the war is considered lost.
      1. 0
        April 6 2019 23: 12
        what are you saying, But is it definitely not there?
  17. +1
    April 5 2019 23: 02
    Quote: lucul
    We have it in EVERY industry.
    No way without 1937.

    We are just having some kind of tolerance celebration in the style of the cat "Leopold" with him - let's live together! And the situation requires putting things in order and it would not hurt to start with the introduction to the Criminal Code wrecking articles! This article was in the Criminal Code of the USSR until 1992 and must be returned!
  18. +8
    April 5 2019 23: 17
    Hello.
    Thanks for the interesting and reasoned article. Unfortunately, the situation you are describing is characteristic of all Armed Forces.
    Given that our military budget is only about 7% of the US budget, we can safely predict that after 15-20 years, when we finally “finish off” the Soviet legacy and our ever-growing technological lag becomes obvious and undisguised on the geopolitical map of the world, we we will occupy the same niche as today's, for example, Turkey - yes big, yes with imperial phantom pains, yes noisy, but absolutely not dangerous and does not solve anything.
    According to the strategic nuclear forces - let's imagine that in narrow circles there is a widespread opinion that the Americans will finish their global missile defense system by the mid-20s (the last successful double launch is a confirmation of this). The next question is the scaling of technology - the question of a small number of years and a large amount of money (remember about 7%). And then imagine that the leadership suddenly realizes that the game is ending and relying on previous deterrence mechanisms will no longer work. Everything is just like with shale oil - this cannot be, it basically does not work, and then Russia actually becomes a member of OPEC - that is another achievement. So: what if Poseidon and the Petrel are not crazy projects of the leadership falling into senility - this is an attempt to jump into the last car of the departing train. Yes, it’s ridiculous, but most likely ineffective, but something needs to be done.
    Thank you.
    1. +1
      April 5 2019 23: 44
      Given that our military budget is only about 7% of the US budget


      I thought about 11% and about 3 place in the world
      salaries in Russia are lower, therefore R&D and army maintenance are cheaper,
      but due to sanctions, less technology is available

      wang, enough for the triad

      Poseidon and Petrel - these are not crazy projects of the leadership falling into senility - this is an attempt to jump into the last car of the departing train


      this is a search for alternative relatively inexpensive answers
      1. +3
        April 6 2019 07: 59
        3 place in the world


        3-5 place in a dense group of India and Saudis. However, the difference is that the neighbors on the budget, basically lower it to external purchases.
  19. 0
    April 6 2019 00: 49
    Okay, what’s set up for another Tsushima is enough.
    1. +4
      April 6 2019 12: 16
      What is Tsushima with ships of rank II-IV ?!)))
  20. -11
    April 6 2019 01: 00
    It is pleasant to read the sofa theoretician of naval affairs with pathos, ardor on the verge of hysteria and omniscience spitting on everything and everyone. Everything is lost! They stole everything! Everyone is stupid! Drowning! Nobody will save! All overboard! This has already happened in history. It is not clear why the theorist did not wake up earlier, when it really was necessary to shout "Help", but woke up when the action in the right direction began? Maybe for a start get a naval education, serve a little?
    1. +1
      April 6 2019 10: 14
      Judging by what happened to the fleet and what prospects it has, the factors you have indicated do not play a role. It turns out that the couch expert has more logic and reasoning than in the actions of the country's leadership and the Navy.
      1. -3
        April 6 2019 11: 07
        The fact of the matter is that he is a couch expert - but I would like to hear the opinion of a real expert, and preferably ten - engaged in shipbuilding at the moment.
        1. +4
          April 6 2019 12: 39
          So who of these experts will be critical of what has been done and is being done. It will be continuous seeding. It’s like parades where the land soldiers lack armata, boomerangs and other Kurgan men. The aviators have the ever-experienced Su, and now also Il. Well, the sailors get to the point that the shark on the parade. The boat actually can not carry combat duty, but flashes in parades. There is one conclusion. Even the Soviet development of the modern military-industrial complex cannot bring to mind. And you are all experts - expeditions. What is there to expertize. If there is a problem with finances, you need to measure seven times and cut off once. And then what? Many different types of experiments funded from the state budget.
        2. 0
          April 8 2019 20: 39
          As Clausewitz wrote, military science is available to the mind of an ordinary person. But you see, not ordinary, and you yourself think - no way.

          So let's write laughing
      2. -3
        April 6 2019 17: 31
        The "couch expert" also has the logic of a couch expert, without real knowledge. Well, readiness + "self-education" on books and pictures, Jane, Wikipedia, etc., on open sources and fakes. It's like a bookworm instead of Zhukov. For a clear analysis of the country's shipbuilding program, even the knowledge of the higher naval school is not enough, here you need strong theoretical knowledge and secret information in naval science, in the field of foreign policy, economics, and geopolitics. Only based on the entire set of data and their analysis, it is possible to draw conclusions, that is, to plan a program of naval development. It is clear that everyone can express their opinion, but the opinion of a layman cannot be laid as a basis for practice. However, such articles, as the reaction of the public shows, warm the souls of many readers, especially those who are not associated with the Navy.
        1. +2
          April 6 2019 18: 06
          Zhukov is not Manstein or even Guderian. Despite all his merits, the military commander was mediocre. And the commanders on the ground in the Second World War were often just the same for everyone, since the especially junior command staff increased tremendously in the first months of the war. The author is absolutely right that, given the limited budget, you need to make a limited number of types of ships, and not rivet whatever you like, and then invent an application for what happened. There should be a clear plan. If we have a defensive strategy, then we make one type of ship, if offensive, then another. By the way, stupid Stalin in the first difficult years of the Second World War, therefore, banned the launch of a bunch of modifications of the same T34. Because in a situation where the enemy is at the gate, or even in the house, it’s better to have a lot of bad, but the same tanks than no less worthless but different in design.
          1. -1
            April 7 2019 06: 19
            Yes, the bugs are not Manstein, not Guderian - he beat and smashed both of them to the nines. This your dear connoisseur, phrase immediately assesses you as a person in military affairs, to put it mildly, so to speak very, very little understanding. Therefore, from here your respect to the article (s) of the sofa connoisseur.
            1. -2
              April 7 2019 19: 57
              Leonid, your opponent even wrote Zhukov’s last name with a capital one, but you didn’t even bother with this ... ashamed, comrade. By the way, if my memory serves me right, Manstein and Guderian stopped the troops under the command of Rokossovsky. I understand that there are Zhukov, and there are all the others ... but if you compare Georgy Konstantinovich with Konstantin Konstantinovich, then my choice is still the last.
              1. -1
                April 8 2019 05: 11
                For Zhukov, with a small letter, I apologize, alas, my vision fails. Zhukov, as I recall, was a representative of the Stavka, commanded in the 41st Western Front, and more than once beat both of them in one capacity or another. Which does not detract from the significance of Rokossovsky. But, on a WWII scale, the role of Zhukov is much greater than the role of Rokossovsky, with all due respect to him.
  21. kig
    -1
    April 6 2019 01: 15
    Everyone imagines himself a strategist, seeing the battle from the side.
  22. 0
    April 6 2019 05: 59
    Quote: the most important
    Very interesting article. But for the "overland" it would be very informative, when it comes to the next project, then exhibit a photograph of this ship. I hope that it will be so in the future.

    but better drawing in profile for clarity. As it used to be in "Marine Series" in "MK". Of course, if any.
  23. +1
    April 6 2019 08: 30
    in March 2011 the frigate pr. 22350 cost 18 billion rubles, and the corvette pr. 20380 - 11 billion rubles, in February 2013 the SKR pr. 11356 and the corvette pr. 20385 cost 14 billion rubles each 20380 - 17,3 billion rubles, 20385 and 11356 - 19,9 billion rubles, 22350 - 28,3 billion rubles. According to the published data excluded from the annual report of Severnaya Verf for 2016, the contract value of orders 1007 and 1008 (corvettes pr. 20380 "Zealous" and "Strogiy") is 17,2-17,3 billion rubles 1009 ("Daring") - 29,1 billion rubles. it is necessary to build corvettes pr 20385 and frigates pr 22350 only add 8 Onyx missiles and 3 Armor-ME
  24. 0
    April 6 2019 08: 32
    Sources: The Navy needed two more Ivan Gren-class landing ships https://flotprom.ru/2019/Yantar57/
  25. -4
    April 6 2019 09: 44
    Dear Alexander Timokhin, a fan of the fleet, this is good. However, not everything is accurate. his main thought is that corvettes are not necessary, but frigates are useful .... only a frigate can have decent air defense and anti-aircraft defense, this is natural! At the same time, Timokhin suggests the situation of a conditional ship at sea subject to attack by submarines and aircraft. however, he does not understand that the means of anti-aircraft defense and air defense are very limited for the frigate too. That is why Andrei from Chelyabinsk so advocated for battleships and super frigates from Av. And Andrei himself honestly found out that the colossus of Kuzya gives out a link of fighters per hour, and is as nearly a defenseless target as Karakurt ..... The conclusion is obvious any surface ship of any displacement is very vulnerable due to the growth of the effectiveness of missile weapons. The main advantage of any combat systems are stealth, mobile missile systems changing their position in minutes, submarines, tanks dug in the bushes, infantry in camouflage, high-speed systems in aviation ........ The design of a patrol ship is the answer to the need to solve Tasks Miron time not wearing out the trash other than warships type 1155. It is necessary to stop the establishment of new surface ships except trawlers in connection with the release of drmsd. Only submarines and coastal aviation.
    1. -3
      April 6 2019 10: 04
      But Kuzyu will be sold to China in India, all the same, now there is no dock for him, and there is no AUG for him and will not be, where will we carry out the next docking?
  26. 0
    April 6 2019 10: 12
    Well, what can I say, what kind of pop is this and the coming, the fish rots from the head, without a king in the head ... etc ...
  27. -4
    April 6 2019 11: 16
    The author, all the problems of the fleet is the legacy of the USSR. They dreamed of mega-projects, and they dream of it here. A bunch of aircraft carriers were stuck there, and they want to. But what a long way to go, to take the story of the Bulava missile, when the sea-based missile was instructed to make a land design bureau. Spent a lot of money, liquidated, and with great difficulty, shoved this product into service. Now let the sailors fuck with him. A flag in their hands and a drum around their neck ... I’m not writing about Kursk, which was drowned by the commander of the Northern Fleet ... In our country, management fell into the hands of amateurs ..
    1. +7
      April 6 2019 11: 43
      The Soviet Union reposed 30 years ago. Maybe enough already blaming him? And the current government has been going on for the second decade! Let's look at the facts, not the TV!
    2. 0
      April 7 2019 17: 35
      In our country, management fell into the hands of amateurs .. Dzafdet you are still very kind to these amateurs.
      1. 0
        April 7 2019 17: 49
        Can you name the reason for the ban, the administration?
    3. 0
      April 7 2019 20: 06
      The author, all the problems of the fleet is the legacy of the USSR. They dreamed of mega-projects, and they dream of it here. A bunch of aircraft carriers were stuck there, and they want to. But what a long way to go, to take the story of the Bulava missile, when the sea-based missile was instructed to make a land design bureau. Spent a lot of money, liquidated, and with great difficulty, shoved this product into service. Now let the sailors fuck with him. A flag in their hands and a drum around their neck ... I’m not writing about Kursk, which was drowned by the commander of the Northern Fleet ... In our country, management fell into the hands of amateurs ..

      In general, all the problems of Russia because of the USSR. They taught the peasants to read and write, and now their descendants are now tormented by all those on your Internet. Urgent, urgent to abandon this blood-stained totalitarian heritage of the past. And then you know what the Earth invented - a ball and people can fly into space. This is a Busurman, fucking himself with demonic sticks in God to bullet them, the unclean ones incline them, but it is not worth it for us who are churches to be angry.
  28. +4
    April 6 2019 11: 40
    Many thanks to the author! Only this is more reminiscent of a tube on an elephant!) Perhaps with a general upsurge in all information media and in society, something will be revealed. And if you add a disaster in the mine action and lighting underwater environment industries. Here where not to dig. Well, of course, there are critics a la: to be exact, is it possible? where did you get the numbers? but here it’s not for sure! NOT SHOULD BE EXACTLY !!! AND DON'T NEED TO BE AN EXPERT TO SEE THIS CHALLENGE !!! AUTHOR RAISED THE TOPICAL TOPIC !!! AND DON'T NEED IT TO BE CUSTOMED UNDER THE ULTRA SPECIALIST IN EVERYTHING! WHY DON'T YOURSELF WRITE AND DO NOT TUBBLE?
    1. 0
      April 7 2019 10: 43
      The author described only what is on the surface and what of this text corresponds to reality and what is not yet unknown. It is common practice to take a few facts and then season with speculation or outright lies.
      And so some of the problems described here arise from others that are more deeply buried. I remember Mr. Serdyukov also broadcast about the inefficiency of the Russian military-industrial complex (high cost, outdated technology) and was going to buy weapons abroad. If it had not been removed, then perhaps now nothing would have remained of the military industrial complex (only repair shops would have been preserved). And then we would have abandoned the Crimea for access to technology, and given the Kuril Islands, and would have offered an additional piece of our territory.
  29. +3
    April 6 2019 12: 13
    But all these problems are the result of one, the main. In our country, both in society and among statesmen, there is a misunderstanding of what the navy is intended for. ...
    But shipbuilding programs are a derivative of the tasks of the Navy, which in turn should be derived from the real threats and political goals of the country in the world.

    I would like to start all the same with the real tasks of the Navy at the moment, taking into account the capabilities of the country, otherwise talking about ships would cost nothing, although the author is undoubtedly right.)
    1. +1
      April 7 2019 12: 29
      Order must be put in place throughout the country, the fleet, aviation, army or space are important, but only parts of the main problem - the country is in the wrong hands.
  30. +2
    April 6 2019 16: 14
    In the view of the amateur, it’s scary, but painfully familiar, a similar situation with technology and its variety and dubious value was in the Red Army before the war ..., the war straightened the brains, then the marshals took on the old ... and now the admirals play those same games ....
  31. -1
    April 6 2019 18: 48
    Quote: Alexey RA
    ordering 3-4-5 ships and forcing each time to establish a production chain and order equipment again.

    it’s not entirely true, all of these projects of modifying one ship, production chains have been established for a long time, and the salary of the ISU and its pair of employees involved in adjusting the project are ridiculously small
  32. -1
    April 7 2019 12: 25
    Effective managers in the whole vertical are incapable of strategic planning, but these are not their priorities at all. The country needs socialism, a planned economy and all the attributes of a strong and independent state.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. +1
      April 7 2019 13: 16
      NordUral It was Soviet socialism that led to today's deplorable situation. You are happy for the planned economy, but the fact of the matter is that the plan is different for the plan. A planned economy is over-demanding for quality planning, the slightest mistake \ inaccuracy and everything flies to tara-tarara. And such errors were made a great many. Including in the Navy, these mistakes were made not yesterday, and not 19 years ago, but much earlier, even under the Soviet regime.
      1. -2
        April 7 2019 17: 31
        Sergey! Not Soviet socialism and not a planned economy led the country to the present state of affairs in everything. And those people in power, and from top to bottom, who destroyed the country after the death of Stalin. Someone who is not out of malice, and who is making every effort for it.
        And from the mistakes of (private) planning, and in everything, not a single state is insured.
        But the situation with mistakes and "mistakes" in our country (once ours) is not in planning mistakes, but, as a minimum, the incompetence of those who run the country. And in my opinion - criminal activity in all directions, aimed at the collapse of the country.
        1. 0
          April 8 2019 01: 45
          You can plead for the planned economy as much as you like, BUT there is a fact, I voiced the fact earlier
          Quote: ProkletyiPirat
          Planned Economy over-demanding to the quality of planning, the slightest mistake / inaccuracy and everything flies to tartaras.

          Stalin, Beria and some of their contemporaries were GREAT MANAGERS, and thanks to this, the planned economy "ruled". As soon as the quality of governance returned to the world average / average state, the planned economy collapsed very quickly and ultimately led to the collapse of the state, failing to overcome even the simplest crises. I repeat once again, this is not a matter of thieves / traitors / agents of influence / substitute_necessary, but it is trite that there are no checks, balances, mechanisms for solving problems and compensating for the shortcomings of such an economy.
  33. -1
    April 7 2019 15: 58
    Quote: Vadim237
    At least the functions of a PLO can be assumed by both a seaplane and an ekranolet

    you are right, although you don’t know that the PLO functions have long been behind stationary sensors near their coasts, and it’s impossible to search for enemy submarines far from their shores by any means, especially since you can destroy your boats ..... so, yes, destroy enemy aircraft should aviation, and look for their stationary sensors, ...... conclusion: surface ships are almost not needed
  34. -1
    April 7 2019 16: 04
    Quote: Vadim237
    engaged in shipbuilding at the moment.

    it will not be entirely true if they speak out, for their knowledge is a state secret
  35. -1
    April 7 2019 22: 04
    Quote: alexmach
    But what is truth? (with)

    You see what’s the matter. There are situations in which it is impossible to understand without special knowledge, but there are those in which everything is obvious even to amateurs.

    you do not deny that you are a dilettante, this is good ... you are also not mudoy because you ascribe to yourself the phrase of Pontius Pilate, that is, you yourself stand in the most uncomfortable position that you can admit because "his name will be cursed forever" ... .that is the depth of your amateurism! driving a car does not mean to understand the processes of fuel combustion, and even more so to understand the process of engine production, tempering, hardening, alloying additives, steel grades, tarnishing, cutting speed, landing tolerances, all this is not important to the driver and, as a rule, he has a very distant idea about it. You and your like-minded people are only able to minus, not realizing that surface ships are not just units in a computer-role game, but the real fates of the shooters on them, because NK is very vulnerable and practically defenseless, it can be seen on a smooth water surface ... and you do not understand that to build this trinket is to damage the country's defense, because this money is torn off from the urgent needs of the Strategic Missile Forces, Air Defense Forces, Aviation and submarines.
  36. -1
    April 7 2019 22: 09
    Quote: Siberian barber
    With the development of anti-tank weapons, the tank lost its former invulnerability, let's also refuse, because it will be shot down, either from a helicopter or a unit with anti-tank guns))

    and note that now nobody is increasing the number of tanks ..... besides, you still need to consider that the tank is harder to find than a surface ship and the loss of the tank is not as noticeable as a cruiser ..... new technologies, new types of weapons, the tank is outdated in the 21st century, and a surface ship in the 19th century, along with halberds and kakzak peaks, so why are all ignoramuses standing up for squadrons of obsolete weapons?
  37. 0
    April 8 2019 10: 55
    Bravo to the author.
    ps the fleet is needed to cut the budget, if it’s not clear (ironic).
  38. 0
    April 8 2019 11: 22
    Quote: Vadim237
    The construction of warships of small dimensions is the right decision of the Ministry of Defense and economically feasible.

    you speak like Bismarck, who had a poor understanding of what the fleet is
    small ship - small autonomy. Low autonomy is an extremely passive defense.
    Passive defense - the sense of the fleet is zero.
  39. -1
    April 8 2019 16: 47
    instead of at least some fleet, the country has a bunch of incomprehensible ships, built for some incomprehensible tasks, incapable of even acting together and not representing for the most part threats to potential opponents.
    Article "minus". The author is a two. If the author does not understand what the ships of the Russian Navy are for.

    And as a scarecrow on top of the heap - pictures and cartoons with a nuclear megatorpeda, apparently the most expensive pictures and cartoons in the world.

    If you express doubts about the presence of "mega-torpedo", then at least give evidence of this. And if you do not have them, then the author is an ordinary yap.
    1. 0
      April 8 2019 20: 57
      Article "minus". The author is a two. If the author does not understand what the ships of the Russian Navy are for.


      Haha You are not ashamed to look in the mirror, eh? What a spit at the evolution of man! Why don't I understand? However, try to state the correct version, for which ships in the Navy, but I am afraid you can not laughing

      If you express doubts about the presence of "megatorpeda", then at least give evidence of this. And if you do not have them, then the author is an ordinary yap.


      The author can lay out the spare part numbers to the mega-torpedo, if necessary, and quite imagines what stage of implementation this project is in, but the problem is that the critics of this cut now have a completely wild hunt on the net, in order to pull everyone possible under the disclosure of gos.tayny and plant. The organizers of the scam acutely feel the approaching tryndets, especially in the light of the fact that Putin demanded that Shoigu show the results this summer, and this is fraught with them. As a result, the organizers are preparing a circus for the President and through their garters in the FSB imprison those who criticize this scam.

      Therefore, the answer to you is - is not enough of mind to ventilate the available open data? This is your problem, exclusively.

      Yip here, by the way, you basically have nothing to say to you.
      1. 0
        April 9 2019 02: 37
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Therefore, the answer to you is - is not enough of mind to ventilate the available open data? This is your problem, exclusively.

        Quote: timokhin-aa
        relo here, by the way, you essentially have nothing to object to.

        To mind the fantasies of your inflamed brain? Dismiss But essentially you did not say anything!
        1. 0
          April 9 2019 14: 50
          The whole article is essentially with real prices on ships.
          I have.

          You have a zero. Only show off.
          1. -1
            April 9 2019 18: 50
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            The whole article is essentially with real prices on ships.
            I have.

            You have a zero. Only show off.

            Exactly. Your article is the biggest show on this page. Omniscient you are ours. "As a rule, those who lack understanding think they know more, and those who are completely devoid of intelligence think they know everything" - Giordano Bruno
  40. 0
    April 9 2019 23: 52
    The author, as always, well done! The topic was raised interesting and correct. You must be able to collect 300 comments. The people have been discussing the article for five days. It can be seen that we are all worried about OUR sailors and there are no indifferent, this is good. Russia has only two allies - this is its army and navy!
    Well, about the author there is a question: who are you, Mr. Timokhin? A couch blogger, an active staff officer or a dismissal from service? "The author can put the catalog numbers of spare parts for the mega-torpedo, if necessary, and quite imagines at what stage of implementation this project is" not everyone has such data. Only in the comments to this article there were many versions, even the author's brother was found.
    Thank you for the article! Interesting and informative.
  41. 0
    April 10 2019 14: 04
    . "Outcropping-underfregate" project 20386, 1 under construction. Already done serious damage to the country's defense


    1 ship undermined defenses? winked Besides, only in the author’s fantasies. There is no ship yet, but I’m sure that it’s bad.

    . MRK project 21361 "Buyan-M", 7 units delivered, 5 in construction. Strange project. On the one hand, the idea of ​​“hiding” the carriers of the Caliber cruise missiles on the inland waterways and in the coastal sea zone is quite “working”. On the other hand, it was worthwhile to think about the fact that the variety of tasks of the Navy is not reduced to launching missiles at stationary targets and "working" with a 100-mm cannon. Ships have neither air defense nor anti-aircraft defense in a significant way, any, even the most seedy and ancient submarine can sink them in such numbers that there will be torpedoes on board, a meeting with a helicopter armed with anti-ship missiles for this ship is also fatal, about the results battle with a modern surface ship or a full-fledged attack from the air is silent.


    The author himself admits that these are ships for inland waterways, but is worried about their meeting with a submarine or helicopter. winked Yeah, somewhere on the Volga))) But the author is forgiven, in the comments on the rivers, nuclear carriers can swim. What can I say about enemy submarines, they generally shovel along the rivers for spawning. And enemy helicopters migrate over our rivers spend every day) But it seems to me alone that the author does not represent all the tasks of the fleet and contradicts himself in each paragraph? He proposes to make one super-waffle, with which you can sink boats, and ships, and bring down aircraft, attack the coast, and drive pirates, and provide escorts, and provide coastal defense in one small boat, which will be very cheap and super efficient .
  42. -1
    April 14 2019 20: 35
    Quote: bayard
    Alas, my faith is Orthodox. The one about which Seraphim of Sarov spoke: "... And the true Gospel will be preached from Russia to all the peoples of the earth," and to Motovilov's question that the Gospel had been preached to all nations for a long time, he answered: "That" gospel "was preached by heretics (!) , I was talking about the TRUE GOSPEL ". Everything is very simple, our God Jesus Christ called the Jews "the sons of the devil" and taught the wicked about true faith in His Father. Remember the Magi who came to worship Him at birth. Where did they come from? How did they know about His Birth? From the Avesta! In the gata about Hvarno, it is said about His birth in great detail - that his mother will be a Virgin, that the Star will announce His Nativity, that he will preach the Law of God, that he will be killed and rise again, and that there will be His Second Coming. when He comes to judge the wicked and slays them with the sword that proceeds from the mouth ...
    This is all recorded in the Avesta (Good News) about 2000 years before Christ. So who should I believe? Egyptian tales recorded (at best by Ezra) 400 years before Christmas of the Savior of the World, or Seraphim of Sarov?
    Just read Avesta (Yasnu) yourself to make it clear. Then there will be no arguing.

    Sorry, but I have not read more nonsense belay
  43. 0
    April 23 2019 07: 35
    Many types of NK have always been the scourge of the Soviet Navy, and they remain so. To reduce the number of types, it is necessary to somehow regulate the number and workload of the PCB, as well as learn to HONESTLY hold competitions so that there is no reason "you need to choose this project, otherwise this bureau will have nothing to do ..." :(
  44. 0
    12 June 2019 18: 44
    Perhaps a stupid question .. the author believes in rubles (obviously yes)? And in his calculations, he takes into account the fact that the ship is being built for several years .. and the ruble exchange rate is changing, based on what does the price change?