Why T-34 lost to PzKpfw III, but won against Tigers and Panthers. About T-34M and wide tower chase

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Having examined the advantages and disadvantages of the T-34 pre-war release and the first war years, we expectedly came to the following: the “thirty-four” was a tank with a very powerful and effective for its time tank cannon and anti-shell armor, which, although it did not guarantee absolute invulnerability, perfectly protected from the main 37-mm anti-tank guns of the Wehrmacht. But at the same time, the T-34 had an insufficient crew, only 4 people instead of 5, which unnecessarily overloaded the tank commander, who was forced to simultaneously act as a gunner. His chassis was unreliable and required a very high qualification of the driver. But even if there was one, the T-34 of the beginning of the war still did not have the technical reliability to solve its main task - actions in the operational rear of the enemy front to a depth of 300 km.

Did the Red Army understand the disadvantages of T-34? Of course. As a matter of fact, already the resolution No. 443ss "On the Adoption of Tanks, Armored Machines, Arttyagachs for the Red Army and on their Production in 1940” from December 19 1939, according to which T-34 was adopted, already contained a list of changes that should have been added to the design of the tank before its mass production began. The same document set a plan for the release of the thirty-fours on 1940 g - 220 units.



Interestingly, the T-34 was adopted even before the start of military trials, which were planned to begin on January 25 1940, but in fact they were launched only on February 13. Of course, during the tests, the observed shortcomings multiplied. During the “running in” of prototypes held in February of 1940, it became clear that the machine would not be ready for the government show scheduled for March of the same year. The first copies of the T-34 did not have time to complete the mandatory test program with mileage 2 000 km. Then the decision was made to send an 2 experienced tank from Kharkov to Moscow under its own power in order to “wind up the counter”, but during this run, the suspension had significant problems: for example, Belgorod had one of the main clutches in one of the cars.



Some historians claim that this was due to the driver’s fault, but generally speaking, the tanks were driven by mechanic testers with exceptional driving experience, who, among other things, “drove” hundreds of kilometers into the T-34 before the start of the race. Consequently, the error looks dubious, and if it was a mistake, it indicates the extreme complexity of management: it is clear that one should not have expected testing qualifications from combat mechanics.

The cars arrived in Moscow on 17 March 1940, and Joseph Vissarionovich Stalin liked them, although the flaws of the machines were not a secret to him. Deputy Director of Defense G.I. insistently pointed out to them both him and Lavrenty Pavlovich Beria who were present there. Kulik and D.G. Pavlov. The latter generally stated: "We will pay dearly for the production of insufficiently combat-ready machines." However, I.V. Stalin ordered that the plant No. XXUMX provide all necessary assistance in correcting the deficiencies of the T-183 and no measures were taken to postpone its mass production. On the contrary, according to further instructions, the production plan of the T-34 on 34 was constantly increased, first to 1940, and then, in early June, to 300 g - and to 1940 machines.

Thus, we see a very strange picture at first glance - a tank that is not fully expressed yet is first put into service, and then launched into a series. How reasonable was this decision? Based on our usual realities - of course, no matter how much.

But in those years ... The first thing I would like to draw attention to is that World War II was in full swing in Europe. True, in March 1940 g still lasted for a lull, since Poland had already fallen, and the invasion of France had not yet begun, but the parties were obviously accumulating strength and preparing for battle. There were no prerequisites for a peaceful, political solution to the conflict. Well, June 7, when the decision was issued, which increased the serial production of T-34 to 600 machines by the end of the year, the French army was already obviously broken and agonized, that is, it became clear that the conflict in the West was not prolonged, and that now only the Red Army stands between Wehrmacht and absolute military domination of the continent.

The second important aspect is the readiness of the domestic industry to release "thirty-five". We should not forget that for this, our plants had to make a very big leap into the future, and this is the point. Until recently, the medium tank T-35 was the heaviest domestic tank (apart from the very small series T-28 monster). It was a very difficult machine to manufacture, so its production was launched at a single Kirov factory (formerly Putilovsky). At that time, this enterprise had the best production capacity, and the qualification of Putilov workers was probably the highest among factories of a similar profile in the USSR. By the time production began, the T-28 plant, in addition to other products, had already produced 9 for years.

However, the production of T-28 was faced with enormous difficulties, which can be divided into 2 groups. The first was based on flaws in the structure, which caused many changes to be made during serial production. The second group could be called the problems of production, and they concerned not only the Kirov factory itself, but also many of its subcontractors who participated in the production of the newest at that time combat vehicle. So, it took a lot of time to eradicate all these problems, which was measured not even months, but years.

It was planned that the Kirov Plant would launch mass production of the T-28 in 1933, but in fact it was possible only in 1934, and the first domestic medium tank was saved from numerous childhood diseases only by 1936.



So, according to the plans of 1940, it was supposed to launch the production of T-34 in two factories: Kharkov Machine-Building (№183) and the Stalingrad Tractor Plant named after Dzerzhinsky (STZ). Plant No.183 was in the best position, since before this it produced the BT-7 tanks, but the STZ only tractor and tracked tractors. But the fact is that the BT-7, as you know, was just a light tank that had almost twice as little weight as the T-34 and a carburetor engine instead of a diesel engine (however, the BT-7M, produced in 1940 g, was all the same diesel B-2). In other words, the plant number 183 and STZ obviously had a long and complicated way of “tilling the cones” in mastering the production of T-34, and it was obvious that the sooner they got down to business, the sooner the Red Army would receive full-fledged combat vehicles. It was impossible to use the Kirovsky plant for the release of the thirty-fives, since it had its own “super task” - to move from the production of medium T-28 to heavy KV-1.

In other words, in 1940, before the leadership of the Red Army, industry and the country were, in general, about the same tasks as in the distant already 1933 with the release of the T-28: there was a frankly raw project, in the absence of a developed technological chain of its production on head manufacturers. Naturally, the chains of industrial cooperation also existed only on paper, because the mass production of parts, components and assemblies at the related enterprises also had to be mastered. But in 1933, the war was not at the threshold of the USSR, and in 1940, the situation was completely different.

Of course, it would be possible to take the “right” path - not to take the T-34 into service, until the tank completely arranges the military, and only then proceed to its mass production. That's just what then we would get in the end? By the time of the fascist Germany’s attack on the USSR, in this case, absolutely nothing would have been prepared for the production of T-34 in the series, and the same Kharkiv number 183 would continue to rivet the spent BT-7. But would it be better?



After all, BT-7 had most of the disadvantages of the T-34, while not having its merits. Did the T-34 crew consist of 4 people and it was not enough? There were three of them in BT-7. Small, cramped tower? At BT-7, it was no better. Bad review from the car? Fully applied to BT. Lack commander's turret? So on the BT-7 it never existed. But BT-7 still had neither a powerful 76,2-mm cannon, nor a projectile reservation, and both of them were extremely useful in combat. The only thing that BT-7, perhaps, was superior to the pre-war T-34, is in technical reliability, but it is very difficult to say whether this superiority was realized in the first battles of World War II, where our mechanized corps lost huge masses of BT-7. Yes, and this advantage was, perhaps, only in older BT-7, because BT-7М, most likely, had similar T-34 problems with its diesel engine.

In other words, T-34, of course, in 1940, was not yet communicated by the designers. But even in this form, it was more valuable for the Red Army than the light tanks that preceded it, which were manufactured by plant No. XXUMX, and for the STZ, by and large, which tank you start to master is all one thing new, and many "cones" were guaranteed. In view of the above, sending T-183 to mass production made a lot of sense: the minus of this decision was that the Red Army would receive raw tanks for the first time, plus the fact that full-quality, quality T-34 would receive the same Red Army much earlier in terms than in some other options in which the launch of the machine in the series was postponed.

Of course, it was possible not to put the T-34 in the series, assemble, almost manually, the installation batch in a couple of dozen cars and send it to the military trials, find flaws in the structure, fix them, make a new batch, etc. But in this case, the “thirty-four” would hardly have begun to be mass-produced before the start of the war, and the plants would have no opportunity to work out in practice all the necessary cooperation that they would have to somehow organize already during the course of hostilities. And when in this case, the T-34 began to arrive in the army in commercial quantities? It is difficult to assume, not knowing all the nuances and characteristics of production, but definitely not in 1941, and in 1942, probably not immediately.

However, before the war, the question of removing the T-34 from mass production was raised twice. The first time this occurred as a result of comparative tests of the German T-3 with the “thirty-four”: it must be said that the contrast in ergonomics and visibility provided by the relatively spacious three-seat tower of the German tank, which also had a commander's turret, seemed striking. But the German tank had other advantages. One of them, oddly enough, speed - T-3 managed to develop 69,7 km / h on the highway, overtaking not only T-34 (48,2 km / h) but also BT-7, which even on wheels showed 68,1 km / h. However, by and large the maximum speed is a very unimportant parameter for the tank, especially since the T-34 engine provided the tank with an excellent specific power, but the next parameter was more significant is noise. T-3 while driving was heard for 150-200 m, T-34 - for 450 m.



Then Marshal G.I. Kulik, having familiarized himself with the test report, suspended the production of the T-34, but later, under pressure from industry representatives and the head of the STC GABTU, I.A. Lebedev managed to resume it. The second time the proposal to stop the production of T-34 was made after the first production vehicles set off for the military trials.

However, another point of view prevailed. It was decided to continue the release of the T-34 in its present form, modifying only those flaws that can be eliminated without changing the design. And, at the same time, create a project of a modernized tank, and in fact there were even two of them. In the first project, which received the cipher A-41, it was intended to eradicate only those flaws with which it was possible to cope without changing the structure of the hull and retaining the existing power unit. I must say that A-41 was quickly abandoned, he never left the drawings, did not go beyond the “paper” design stage.

The second project was A-43, which later received the designation T-34M, and the abundance of changes and additions makes it difficult to define it: here we must speak either about the most thorough modernization of T-34, or about creating a new machine, -34.

The T-34M case turned out to be taller, longer and narrower than what its “ancestor” had. The tower had a shoulder strap 1 700 mm (1 420 mm in T-34) and was a triple, there was a commander's pinnacle, the crew was 5 people. Christie's suspension was changed to torsion bar. For the T-34M, the new B-5 engine was developed, but the gearbox, unfortunately, is still the old one (and the work on the planetary gearbox was already underway). However, a multiplier was added so that the T-34M had 8 front speeds and 2 rear speeds. The radio was moved to the body, the driver and the radio operator were swapped, the ammunition and fuel supplies were increased. And with all this, the tank also turned out to be almost a ton lighter than the T-34, its speed should have been on the order of 55 km / h, exceeding that of the “thirty-four”, and only than the T-34M was worse than its “ progenitor ”- this is some increase in pressure on the ground, as it used a caterpillar with a width of 450 mm place 550 mm. The latter figure, of course, remained within the normal range.

The project was introduced in January by 1941 and was extremely liked by the “high authorities”, who recommended only using the existing weight supply to increase the thickness of frontal armor plates up to 60 mm. In addition, in February 1941, it was decided to develop a planetary gearbox for this tank.



In other words, the T-34M was a kind of symbiosis of the ideas embodied in German and domestic tanks and promised to become an extremely successful combat vehicle, in all respects superior to German tanks. At the same time, its release was planned for 1941. The Resolution of the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR and the Central Committee of the CPSU (b) “On the Production of T-34 Tanks in 1941” adopted by 5 in May 1941, read:

"... Oblige Narkomsredmash t. Malyshev and plant manager No. 183 t. Maksarev to ensure that in 1941, the release of 500 pieces of improved T-34 tanks against the program established by this decree."


In total, 1941 was supposed to receive from the industry 2 800 medium tanks, while the plant number X NUMX was to produce 183 1 T-300 and 34 T-500M, and STZ - 34 1 T-000. In the future, the production of T-34 was planned to be gradually phased out in favor of the T-34M completely.
Unfortunately, these plans were not destined to come true, and there was one reason - the B-5 diesel engine, which, unfortunately, did not see the light. As a result, the plant number 183 during the evacuation to Nizhny Tagil "grabbed" with itself 5 towers (perhaps already with guns installed), as well as 2 hulls with suspension, but without rollers, engines and transmissions, and no more work on this tank was made.

Here, many dear readers will probably want to remind the author that the plant number XXUMX could not produce tanks with epaulettes 183 1 mm until the lend-turning lathes were transferred to his disposal. Indeed, a number of publications indicated that if it were not for 700-2 turning-rotary machines (and in some sources they managed to be called carousel-gear cutting, which, of course, completely erroneous), obtained from the USA, then our evacuated plant No. 5 didn’t could produce t-xnumx-xnumx. And it would be okay if the matter concerned some Internet sources, or odious authors like the same Corned beef. But this is what M. Baryatinsky, a respected historian who specializes in armored vehicles of the Second World War, wrote:

“The largest producer of the thirty-fours, Nizhny Tagil Plant No. 183, couldn’t switch to production of T-34 – 85, since there was nothing to process the ring gear of the tower with a diameter of 1600 mm. The carousel at the factory allowed machining of parts with a diameter of up to 1500 mm. Among NKTP enterprises, such machines were available only at Uralmashzavod and plant No. 112. But since Uralmashzavod was loaded with an IS tank production program, there was no reason to hope for it in terms of T-34 – 85 production. Therefore, new carousel machines were ordered in the UK (Loudon) and the USA (“Lodge”). As a result, the first tank T-34 – 85 left the shop of the plant number 183 only 15 March 1944 of the year. These are the facts, with them, as they say, you can not argue. "


In general, the shortage in the USSR of turning and rotary machines for the production of tanks with a wide shoulder strap tower has long been a "talk of the town." Therefore, let's stop a little in the description of the process of improving the “thirty-fours” in order to highlight this issue in more detail and never return to it.

So, judging by the information available today, the respected M. Baryatinsky still was mistaken in his judgment about the presence in the USSR of turning and rotary lathes of the appropriate size.

The first thing that makes one doubt the accuracy of the text is an error in the description of the technical operation, namely, the phrase “there was nothing to treat the ring gear of the tower” as the turning-and-boring lathe does not serve for this purpose. In short, the turning-and-boring machine represents a spinning table (faceplate) over which the tool hangs. The latter can be moved up-down and left-right, so that the cutter, coming into contact with the rotating workpiece, performs its processing.



To be more precise, the caliper "hangs", containing a turret on several types of incisors, which can perform a number of operations, such as machining external surfaces, drilling holes, trimming the ends of the part, etc. But no teeth on the turning-rotary machine can not be processed, it is simply not designed to work with such surfaces. However, maybe we simply misunderstand the idea of ​​a respected author, and in fact he meant only preparatory operations, and the incisors were cut with another tool afterwards.

The second - generally speaking, the first turning-rotary machine in the USSR was manufactured at the plant named after GM. Gray in 1935. What is interesting is that the machines of the “first releases” are still “kept” at some enterprises.

Why T-34 lost to PzKpfw III, but won against Tigers and Panthers. About T-34M and wide tower chase


And in 1937, in the USSR, at the same factory, two turning-boring machines 152 with a processing diameter of 2000 mm were manufactured. The exact number of machines produced, alas, is unknown, but the decision of the Council of People's Commissars for 1941, the plant allocated 23 million rubles. to bring the annual output to 800 per year: accordingly, it can be assumed that even before this release was significant.

Third. M. Baryatinsky says that turning and rotary lathes were not in NKTP, but what is this NKTP? Some readers might have mistakenly assumed that NKTP is the People’s Commissariat of Heavy Industry (“Narkomtyazhprom”), but this is not true, because the latter was abolished much earlier than the events described by M. Baryatinsky, 24 in January 1939 of NKTP - this is just Narodny the commissariat of the tank industry, and besides it there was a mass of other Commissariats, in which, of course, there was a lot of any equipment that was missing in the NKTP.

So, it is completely unclear how the USSR could exist and develop at all without turning-and-boring lathes with a large faceplate diameter. For example, a typical project of a locomotive factory assumed the presence of 15 turning-boring machines on each, while the diameter of the driving wheels of the most common locomotive of the IC was 1 850 mm. How to do them without a turning lathe?



And the excavators? The rotary mechanism of an excavator is the same shoulder strap of a tank tower, while in the USSR excavators were made starting from the 30s. Before the war, in 1940 g, even career ones were made.

In general, it turns out one of two things - or in the USSR they completely mastered the production of turning-and-boring lathes with a diameter of machining 2 000 mm and more, or they invented some magical way to do without them. The first one believes much more than magic, and if, nevertheless, somewhere in the depths of the people's commissariats magic wands are lying around, allowing them to produce excavators and wheels for locomotives without turning and rotary machines, then who prevented the same “technology” to be applied to tanks?

In other words, we can fully trust the judgment of a respected historian that the machine tools needed for the production of tank shoulder straps were not enough in the NKTP. After all, before the appearance of the KV tank, the only plant that needed them was the Kirov Plant, which created medium-sized T-28 tanks, whose towers with an 76,2-mm gun had an 1 620 mm shoulder strap. The rest, even after the transition to the T-34, by and large in the "wide" turning-boring machines did not need. So why should they be in NKTP in any appreciable quantities? But this does not mean that such machines were not in other Commissariats.

Fourth, in spite of the above, these machines still were in a certain amount in NKTP before the war. This is evidenced by a letter from the chief of the 1 division of the 3 division of the armored command of the GABTU KA, lieutenant colonel I. Panov, who supervised the work on T-34 addressed to Lieutenant General Fedorenko. The letter is dated 13 December 1940 and contains the following lines:

“According to preliminary estimates, the tower shoulder strap can be expanded approximately by 200 mm. Is this expansion possible in terms of production? Perhaps, since this expansion has no meaning for the Mariupol plant, and plant No. XXUMX has machine equipment for the production of expanded shoulder strap. ”


Taking into account the fact that the T-34 diameter of the shoulder strap was 1 420 mm, it turns out that the machine for processing the shoulder strap approximately on the 1 620 mm was at the factory. In addition, there is a photograph of a turning-and-boring lathe, made in 1942, at the plant number 183.



The scale is not visible very well, but let's pay attention to the 2 machine stands (one of them is just turned up by the worker on the right) - they indicate that we have a large machine. The fact is that two-rack turning and rotary lathes made exclusively those that were intended for machining parts with a diameter greater than 1 500 - 1 600 mm. As a matter of fact, the very first “big” machines of this type (the 152 mentioned by us earlier) made in the USSR had only one rack, but it quickly became clear that this was an erroneous decision, and the plant named after GM. Sedin moved to release 152M, with two racks. That is, even if we saw a large single-pillar large machine, it is possible that it was 152, capable of processing parts with a diameter of 2 000 mm and quite suitable for the production of a wide tank shoulder strap. But we see a machine with two racks, and this clearly demonstrates its “professional suitability” for the manufacture of parts, even for T-34М, even for T-34-85.

Fifth, it is necessary, finally, to pay attention to the number of turning-and-boring lathes necessary for tank production. Consider the production of the EC-2, a heavy tank with a shoulder strap 1 800 mm. No historian has ever claimed that we received lend-lease for the machine park for the EC-2.

So, the plant №200, on which the production was carried out, was equipped with turning-and-boring lathes with a large faceplate diameter (up to 4 meters) in the shortest possible time. At the same time, as far as can be judged, NKTP itself managed to find only 2 of such machines, taking them from UZTM. And the rest of the machines were “taken out” by the State Defense Committee (GKO), in Resolution No. 4043ss of 4 September 1943, “On the Adoption of an IS Tank”, which obliged the State Planning Committee to find turning-turning machines with a 5-3 faceplate diameter for the 4 plant , and “14 special machine tools for the processing of the shoulder strap” to produce until the end of 1943 year.

And yet, characteristically, they searched and did. Without any Lend-Lease.

Now pay attention to that. The plant, which had 7 carousel machines and plus 14 special machines, produced during the war years, and after it, a maximum of 250 tanks per month. Plant No. 183 supported the production of T-34-85 at levels above 700 machines per month (up to 750), that is, almost three times more than the plant No. XXUMX. And if the latter required 200 lathes and rotary boring machines with a large faceplate diameter, how many plants does it need for the plant No.7 and our other plants producing T-183-34? After all, the cumulative release of T-85-34 at all plants in other months exceeded 85 1 machines!

And what, someone can seriously believe that all this was done on several machines from the United States? No, of course, you can try to refer to the fact that they say American machines were “one hundred million times more productive” than domestic ones, but this argument shatters the fact that the USSR did not only have turning lathe machines of domestic production, but also foreign ones acquired before the war, for example - the company "Niles".

But this is not all, because there are still “sixths,” which is the banal mismatch of the delivery time of the Lend-lease machines to the factories and the release of T-34-85. The fact is that turning-and-boring machines for our tank plants for Lend-Lease were actually ordered, for example, according to the decree of GOKO No. XXUMXss "On the production of T-4776-34 with 85mm gun at factory No. XXUMX Narco-Tankoprom" from 85 Commissar of Foreign Trade commissioned , among other things, “for plant No. 112 NKTP 15.12.1943 of rotary-boring machines with faceplates from 112 to 5 meters ... ... with delivery in 2,6 quarter of 3.”.

But the thing is that the plant number 112 started producing T-34-85 tanks from January 1944, producing them, respectively, in January - 25, in February - 75, in March - 178 and in April (extremely difficult assume that the machines with the delivery “in the 2 quarter” by this time could have been installed at the factory) - 296 tanks. And the most interesting thing - after the arrival of American machine tools, the output increased extremely slightly, the plant produced a maximum of 315 tanks per month!

The situation described above perfectly shows the real need for turning and boring lathes - only for one plant producing all 315 T-34-85 per month, it took 5 of such American-made machines, in addition to the existing machine park, which already had machines with large diameter faceplate! In general, the version of the miraculous performance of American machines crumbles to the ground.

As for plant # 183, the decree with the permission to order machines abroad required organizing the supply of large rotary machines until July 1 1944, while the first T-34-85 tanks with a wide shoulder strap tower (for some time the factory produced tanks with the 85-mm cannon in the old, narrow pursuit), the plant passed in March - 150 machines, April - 696, May and June - 701 and 706 machines, respectively. There is also a diary of Malyshev, in which he leads a conversation with I.V. Stalin:

“January 15 1944 ... Then, Comrade Stalin asked:“ Then is it possible to manufacture T-34 tanks with a wide shoulder strap? ”I replied that“ this requires additional large rotary machines and large molding machines. In addition, there are difficulties in the development of a new tower, subject to a simultaneous increase in the output of tanks. But we are working on this issue with the factories and after 3-5 days I can report our offers. "Comrade Stalin said:" Yes, the release of tanks cannot be reduced. But you give your suggestions through 3 of the day. Do not forget only "and said goodbye."


But here it is not clear, Malyshev speaks about the need for turning and rotary lathes with a large faceplate diameter in addition to the existing same (or is it different?) Machine tools. However, the fact that the T-34-85 was released with a wide shoulder strap from March 1944 speaks for itself - under no circumstances could the plant No. 183 be able to get a turning-and-boring machine under the lend-lease by the specified deadline. At first it was necessary to coordinate their delivery with the United States, but this took time, then they needed to be manufactured, and the production cycle of such a machine was long enough. Then these machines still needed to be delivered to the USSR and it is clear that in the month of 1-2 it was all impossible to do. And this means that turning and boring machines with large faceplate diameters were in plant number XXUMX and before the lend-lease supplies.

There is one more nuance. We know that such machines were going to be ordered under Lend-Lease, but we do not have a complete picture of how many large turning and rotary machines were actually ordered, how many were delivered (some could die on the way), and how many of the machines supplied in the end it was transferred to NKTP.

True, dear readers may ask: if the USSR was doing so well with turning-boring lathes with a large face plate diameter, why was it ordered abroad? The answer, apparently, was that since NKTP itself did not have such machines, for the production of tanks it was necessary to “peel” other commissariats, that is, in fact, to produce tanks at the expense of some other technology, did not cover the needs of all commissariats at once. So they were ordered abroad, since there was such an opportunity. From this, of course, it does not follow that without the above machines, the USSR could not organize mass production of T-34-85, and certainly it does not follow that, on the eve of the war, the plants did not have turning-rotary machines for the T-34М production program . In the end, we must not forget about the scale: according to the planned targets, throughout the entire 1941 of the year, Plant No.183 was to produce 500 T-34М, while in the USSR military, the same plant produced T-34-85 to 750 tanks monthly.

But back in the 1940-41 years, to the production of T-34 tanks.

To be continued ...
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  1. +14
    25 February 2019 15: 18
    Here, many dear readers will probably want to remind the author that the factory No.183 could not produce tanks with 1 700 mm shoulder straps until they turned over rotary-boring lathe-received machines.
    And another reader wants to remind you that in peacetime, the hulls for the Kharkov plant were made in Mariupol, at the factory where they made armored parts for our fleet, and these are cruisers and battleships, maybe someone is ready to compare the shoulder straps of their guns ... And another shoulder strap the main tower of the T-35 tank manufactured in Kharkov was = 1620 mm
    T-34M (wooden breadboard model)

    however, the T-34 had an insufficient crew, only 4 people instead of 5, which overloaded the tank commander, who was forced to simultaneously play the role of gunner.
    Not in quantity, in the same T-44, T-54, T-55 and T-62 they were the same 4, but in the distribution of duties. In the T-34, the gunner was clearly superfluous
    1. +10
      25 February 2019 15: 42
      Running gear and transmission are two big differences. If the first, the claims are minimal (low track life), then the second maximum.

      A long passage about equipment for boring shoulder straps is funny, but wrong. To process the rings of shoulder straps, machines with a plan washer diameter of more than 2 m were not really needed and they were produced in the USSR. But for processing the tower, it required machines with a plan washer diameter not less than the turret radius (the distance from the axis of rotation to the most distant point of the tower edge).
      For the T-34-76 tower, a machine with a plan washer diameter of at least 100 inches was required (for HF, 120 inches). Whether such machines were produced in the USSR is a big question, which would be subject to research in this post.

      In addition, the radius of the sweep of the tower (and the diameter of the machine washer) was not directly dependent on the diameter of the shoulder strap (more precisely, the service circle in the light), but depended on the design of the tower. For example, a turret with a shoulder strap of 1420mm (T-34-76) and a turret with a shoulder strap of 1600mm (T-34M) could be machined on one machine with a plan-washer diameter of 100 ".

      The figure given in the post with the T-34M has nothing to do with the T-34M, which should have been released from the second half of 41g (except for the gun and torsion bar suspension).
      1. +3
        25 February 2019 16: 04
        Forgive me, but can you enlighten the ignorant about where exactly the tower needs to be machined with a machine with a 100-inch faceplate? For what operations? The tower is either welded or cast. What exactly should be done along the "sweeping radius" with such a machine?
        1. +16
          25 February 2019 17: 36
          Quote: Tatoshi
          Forgive me, but can you enlighten the ignorant about where exactly the tower needs to be machined with a machine with a 100-inch faceplate? For what operations? The tower is either welded or cast. What exactly should be done along the "sweeping radius" with such a machine?

          The tower is processed in place of the running ring (upper), but in order to do this, the diameter of the plan washer must be greater than two turret radiuses.

          As you can see, the stanochka is clearly not Soviet-made.

          That's what stupidity cons puts? Well, you don’t know how the running gear differs from the transmission, you don’t know that you need a machine with such a plan washer diameter to handle the turret and that in the picture in the T-34M post, it’s another T-34M, so be enlightened and put the pluses. At us, some hoops, put minuses for purely technical Old.
          1. 0
            25 February 2019 18: 48
            Today I already wrote about the fact that, for no reason, put cons. Spyen wound up however. Pest.
            1. AUL
              0
              26 February 2019 07: 39
              Quote: Blacksmith 55
              Spyen wound up however. Pest.

              Yes, just a petty dirty trickster of school age. Neglect!
          2. +5
            25 February 2019 20: 23
            In your description of the operation, a faceplate is NOT required 2 times the sweep radius of the tower. It is enough that the faceplate is slightly more than two radii of the "roof" of the tower. In your photo, you can clearly see this - the tower is not attached by sweeping.
            So again, in what operation do you need a faceplate twice the radius of the turret sweeping? About the processing of epaulettes is not necessary, already dismantled that there is not required.
            1. +2
              26 February 2019 09: 57
              Quote: Tatoshi
              In your description of the operation, a faceplate is NOT required 2 times the sweep radius of the tower. It is enough that the faceplate is slightly more than two radii of the "roof" of the tower. In your photo, you can clearly see this - the tower is not attached by sweeping.
              So again, in what operation do you need a faceplate twice the radius of the turret sweeping? About the processing of epaulettes is not necessary, already dismantled that there is not required.

              Required. The plan-washer rotates with the tower, but we have a circle equal to the two maximum radii of the tower turf. If p.-sh. If there are less than two sweeping radii (a little bit is possible), then the edge of the tower will strike at the stationary parts of the machine.
            2. 0
              27 February 2019 09: 59
              And why did you all rest on the faceplate? Give rotation to the spindle and place the part on the table, by the way, any size.
          3. +2
            25 February 2019 21: 17
            The tower is processed at the location of the running ring (upper), but in order to do this, the diameter of the plan washer must be greater than two circle radius towers.

            And they forgot to install the gun before processing the shoulder strap ...))) Then the 200 "faceplate would not have been enough laughing
            1. +1
              26 February 2019 10: 03
              Quote: anzar
              The tower is processed at the location of the running ring (upper), but in order to do this, the diameter of the plan washer must be greater than two circle radius towers.

              And they forgot to install the gun before processing the shoulder strap ...))) Then the 200 "faceplate would not have been enough laughing

              Very funny. And even funnier is Andrei's illiterate reasoning on the treatment of epaulettes by turning and rotary machines.
              1. +1
                26 February 2019 10: 28
                Very funny

                Well, yes)) Dear Jura, you won’t argue that the shoulder strap in the turret sheet was processed by installing the entire tank body on the machine. In the same way, with a shortage of machine tools of large diameters, they could process the tower shoulder strap as a separate part. If you put the whole tower in assembly because you could afford it technologically (there were such machines), and not a mandatory requirement.
                1. 0
                  26 February 2019 11: 18
                  Quote: anzar
                  Very funny

                  Well, yes)) Dear Jura, you won’t argue that the shoulder strap in the turret sheet was processed by installing the entire tank body on the machine. In the same way, with a shortage of machine tools of large diameters, they could process the tower shoulder strap as a separate part. If you put the whole tower in assembly because you could afford it technologically (there were such machines), and not a mandatory requirement.

                  A place under the upper running ring was processed in the tower. In the case, it was simply screwed on. Both rings were pre-processed on machines with a small diameter p / w (photo is given in the post).
                  1. +4
                    26 February 2019 14: 08
                    If you didn’t need to twist the case to process the place for the lower shoulder strap, then why do you need to twist the whole tower when processing the same place on the tower? That is, how was the seat processed for shoulder straps on the case?
          4. +1
            26 February 2019 11: 39
            the diameter of the plan washer must be greater than two turret radius

            Well, your picture just denies this. Yes, the diameter of the faceplate is large, but the clamps are even on a smaller diameter than the shoulder strap. And nothing prevents to make technological ledges or holes for mounting it on the faceplate on the roof of the tower. So this is past.
            1. 0
              26 February 2019 12: 22
              Quote: Yuri_999
              the diameter of the plan washer must be greater than two turret radius

              Well, your picture just denies this. Yes, the diameter of the faceplate is large, but the clamps are even on a smaller diameter than the shoulder strap. And nothing prevents to make technological ledges or holes for mounting it on the faceplate on the roof of the tower. So this is past.

              Yes, I have past. But you, precisely, by the edge of the niche of the tower, will fall on the fixed part of the TKS machine if the diameter of the s / w is less than two radii of the tower's brushing.
              1. +2
                26 February 2019 12: 36
                So faceplates, or machine stands?
              2. 0
                2 March 2019 18: 28
                Quote: Jura 27
                Yes, I have past. But you, precisely, by the edge of the niche of the tower, will fall on the fixed part of the TKS machine if the diameter of the s / w is less than two radii of the tower's brushing.


                Tell me - why two, why not 1,2 or 1,3 - where did the figure 2 come from?
                1. +1
                  5 March 2019 06: 37
                  [/ quote] Tell me - why exactly two, why not 1,2 or 1,3 - where did the number 2 come from? [quote]

                  Geometrically, it turns out that two radii are equal to one diameter. Those. two sweeping radii of the T-34-76 turret of 1220mm (approximately), give us a minimum p / w diameter of 2440mm. Rounded, it will turn out 2500mm (if the machine is German) or 100 "(2540mm, if the machine is Angloameric). Of course, between the p / w and the stationary parts of the machine, there is a small gap, i.e. on a machine with a p / w diameter of 2540 mm, you can handle a tower with a sweeping radius, let's say 1300mm, or even 1320mm.
                  1. 0
                    6 March 2019 16: 19
                    Quote: Jura 27
                    Geometrically, it turns out that two radii are equal to one diameter. Those. two sweeping radii of the T-34-76 turret of 1220mm (approximately), give us a minimum p / w diameter of 2440mm. Rounded, it will turn out 2500mm (if the machine is German) or 100 "(2540mm, if the machine is Angloameric). Of course, between the p / w and the stationary parts of the machine, there is a small gap, i.e. on a machine with a p / w diameter of 2540 mm, you can handle a tower with a sweeping radius, let's say 1300mm, or even 1320mm.

                    Excuse me, I thought it was about the diameter (which is 2 overlapping diameter) laughing
                    1. +1
                      7 March 2019 03: 16
                      [/ quote] It's to blame, I thought the speech was about the diameter (which is 2 diameter of the sweeping) laughing [quote]

                      There are no “sweeping diameters”, there are only radii.
          5. 0
            26 February 2019 12: 02
            Well, why are you really?
            Throw in the "pluses" of Yure27!
            Still, I posted valuable information!
            And then offended, cry and leave upset !!!
            1. +1
              26 February 2019 12: 27
              Quote: fighter angel
              Well, why are you really?
              Throw in the "pluses" of Yure27!
              Still, I posted valuable information!
              And then offended, cry and leave upset !!!

              Late, my friend, they have already delivered a lot to me.

              But in general, it was a humorous test to see if there are people on the site who are technologically savvy or just financial managers who can’t do anything with the foot, in the technologies for manufacturing tanks described in the post.
              1. -1
                26 February 2019 12: 52
                Here I put this minus for you - I am translating your writings - there are those who understand the technique, and the rest just "went out for a walk." But does a person not understand (not for himself) in technology? Why didn't they call them "liberast" or "urya-patriot"?
          6. -1
            28 February 2019 21: 41
            I’ll see the “secret” for you now. I’ll open up that in those days, MOST of the machines were not of our production. Or are you writing with intent to say that he is not ours? As you remember, they didn’t supply them for free at all, remember what they came up with when they told us that they didn’t need gold, let’s give it all in grain. And then there was a shortage of grain in our country and famine in the Volga region and Ukraine, northern Kazakhstan, and so on.
      2. +4
        25 February 2019 18: 13
        Quote: Jura 27
        But for processing the tower, machines with a diameter of the plan washer were required no less than the radius of the tower sweeping (the distance from the axis of rotation to the most remote point of the tower edge).

        I climbed the T-34 with and without a tower, and I did not find any turning operations on the hull and tower with a diameter larger than indicated. HF different versions have not been studied in such detail, but I can if I wish.
        Where do you need such operations? It is possible in more detail while doubts overcome.
        1. +1
          25 February 2019 19: 39

          probably it looked something like this
        2. 0
          26 February 2019 10: 05
          Quote: goose
          Quote: Jura 27
          But for processing the tower, machines with a diameter of the plan washer were required no less than the radius of the tower sweeping (the distance from the axis of rotation to the most remote point of the tower edge).

          I climbed the T-34 with and without a tower, and I did not find any turning operations on the hull and tower with a diameter larger than indicated. HF different versions have not been studied in such detail, but I can if I wish.
          Where do you need such operations? It is possible in more detail while doubts overcome.

          Somewhere you climbed there, look better my answers Tatoshi.
      3. +1
        26 February 2019 09: 28
        Quote: Jura 27
        The figure given in the post with the T-34M has nothing to do with the T-34M, which should have been released from the second half of the year 41g

        Because it is actually a T-34T with a finished body. A real T-34M would be more technologically advanced, and it was decided to make a frontal reservation not 60 mm, but 90 mm, because the technology of rolling and hardening 60 mm sheets required the expansion of equipment and time for adjustment. In life, it turned out to be easier to build a heavier and more laborious prefabricated structure of two 45 mm sheets. And yes, with the overload of the first pair of rollers.
        1. 0
          26 February 2019 10: 07
          Quote: goose
          Quote: Jura 27
          The figure given in the post with the T-34M has nothing to do with the T-34M, which should have been released from the second half of the year 41g

          Because it is actually a T-34T with a finished body. A real T-34M would be more technologically advanced, and it was decided to make a frontal reservation not 60 mm, but 90 mm, because the technology of rolling and hardening 60 mm sheets required the expansion of equipment and time for adjustment. In life, it turned out to be easier to build a heavier and more laborious prefabricated structure of two 45 mm sheets. And yes, with the overload of the first pair of rollers.

          Not at all for that. I indicated the reasons in my first comment.
    2. 0
      25 February 2019 16: 34
      and an extra shooter, and the tower is cramped. Arrow Ballast - Lesser Evil
    3. +8
      25 February 2019 16: 53
      Quote: svp67
      In the T-34, the gunner was clearly superfluous

      Radio stations were then very moody and required constant tuning, so a separate radio operator in the crew is a necessity. In the United States, where the reliability of the walkie-talkie was much better, there was no separate radio operator, there was an assistant driver, along with a gunner.
      1. 0
        25 February 2019 16: 54
        Quote: Snakebyte
        Radio stations were then very moody and required constant tuning, so a separate radio operator in the crew is a necessity.

        It could have been either the loader or the same commander ...
        1. +1
          25 February 2019 17: 09
          yeah, would look at all spat upon matilda
        2. +9
          25 February 2019 18: 26
          Quote: svp67
          It could have been either the loader or the same commander ...

          That is, instead of observing the battlefield, the commander will have to constantly maintain communications? Or loader - the same, instead of loading? wink
          On the course of these tests, a report was drawn up No. 0116b-ss, which, together with the dismantled radio station, was handed over to Comrade. Osintseva ...
          I have a brief summary of the following:
          The radio station of the German tank provides reliable two-way telephone communication while driving and in the parking lot, including at the maximum distance indicated by the manufacturer ... The operator was able to contact the phone even at a distance of 30 percent. exceeding the maximum range, while the radio station of our tank at maximum distance provides only a confident reception. The transmission range on our tank is significantly reduced compared to the passport data ...
          A positive quality of the German tank’s receiving and transmitting station is also that it provides reliable communication in movement, while during the movement of the BT tank the reception quality is significantly impaired until the connection is completely lost ...
          According to all the main characteristics, the radio station of a German tank surpasses that installed on a domestic tank. I consider it appropriate to carry out the development of a new type of tank radio station based on existing German models ... Lozhkarev
          11 / X-1940

          And in the same report, to describe the support of communication using the Soviet radio station, an optimistic phrase is used “with incredible efforts” ...
          © Ulanov / Shein
          1. +1
            25 February 2019 18: 29
            Quote: Alexey RA
            That is, instead of observing the battlefield, the commander will have to deal with

            Everything is simple right there. Our radio stations, of that time, were not allowed to work on the move, and on the spot he would have been able to do everything, especially since the adjustment is actually carried out by touch, most importantly, that would be smooth ... And if you recall that on a significant part of our T-34 the radio station was not installed at all, then ....
            1. -1
              25 February 2019 19: 48
              and on the spot he would have been able to do everything, especially since the adjustment is actually carried out by touch, most importantly, that would be smooth ...

              in addition to the radio station, he also fired from a machine gun, saving the tank from the enemy infantry. Therefore, no one could replace him.
              1. +5
                26 February 2019 04: 20
                Quote: glory1974
                in addition to the radio station, he also fired from a machine gun, saving the tank from the enemy infantry. Therefore, no one could replace him.

                Sorry, but it's almost a fantasy. To understand this, it’s enough to read the memoirs of veterans about the possibilities of this firing point ...
                1. 0
                  26 February 2019 08: 37
                  read the memories of veterans about the possibilities of this firing point ...

                  maybe we read different memories? I’m not saying that it was possible to conduct sniper fire from a machine gun, but machine guns are still installed on armored vehicles, both course and coaxial with a gun. Probably not just.
                  1. 0
                    26 February 2019 08: 39
                    Quote: glory1974
                    both course and paired with a gun

                    I will not argue with paired, but term papers, I only saw on our BTR-80, but where else?
                    1. 0
                      26 February 2019 08: 41
                      course on the BMD installed, above the tracks, as many as 2 pieces
                      1. 0
                        26 February 2019 08: 44
                        Quote: glory1974
                        course on the BMD installed, above the tracks, as many as 2 pieces

                        Well, yes, the same was installed on the BMP-3, but what is the accuracy of these machine guns? They are more intended for mental impact during a daring attack than for a sniper defeat. And mind you, the fire is fired by the Mech-Water, not a dedicated crew member. It would be better instead of these "ratchets", the ZPU was installed on the turret of the T-90M type, at least with a 7,62mm machine gun, there would be more sense
                      2. 0
                        26 February 2019 08: 50
                        They are more intended for mental impact during a remote attack,

                        I think on the T-34 also for this basically. But without a machine gun in general, no way. Otherwise, the tank becomes defenseless against an infantryman with a grenade. And the fact that it is difficult to shoot straight into the embrasure is understandable. The accuracy is low, but nevertheless they make loopholes on modern machines, and there are exercises in fire training.
                        It’s easier to shoot with ZPU, due to better visibility, but during the attack I don’t think that infantry can be accurately hit from it.
                      3. 0
                        26 February 2019 08: 56
                        Quote: glory1974
                        But without a machine gun in general, no way. Otherwise, the tank becomes defenseless against an infantryman with a grenade.

                        Can. You can use grenade launchers or, as they are also called, mortars, which shoot a grenade, which gives a circular spread with a splinter and protects from such "enthusiasts" with a grenade
                      4. 0
                        26 February 2019 09: 52
                        You can use grenade launchers or whatever their name is mortars who shoot a grenade

                        Probably possible. But something they did not prove themselves. A machine gun is simpler and more efficient.
                      5. 0
                        26 February 2019 15: 17
                        Quote: glory1974
                        But something they did not prove themselves.

                        We do not, but in foreign countries, yes.
                      6. +1
                        26 February 2019 18: 54
                        Well, with BMD, buddy, you got excited! There, both PKT guards are installed in ball bearings and although their angles of fire are not large, both are handled by the handles of two paratroopers! Estessno while they (paratroopers) are in the fighting vehicle !!! Like so somehow.
                      7. 0
                        4 March 2019 08: 40
                        Are you sure?
                        There, both PKT guards are installed in ball bearings and although their angles of fire are not large, both are handled by the handles of two paratroopers! Estessno while they (paratroopers) are in the fighting vehicle !!!


                        BMD Description:
                        In embrasures along the edges of the frontal part of the hull in ball bearings, two PKT course machine guns are installed. Fire from them are the commander of the machine and the machine gunner. The ammunition of each machine gun consists of 1000 cartridges placed in four regular boxes.
                        In the middle part of the car body on both sides and in the aft manhole cover there is one ball mount for firing from AKMS assault rifles. Ball installations located on the sides are closed by armored dampers, which are manually opened from the workplace of the shooters.
                      8. 0
                        4 March 2019 21: 03
                        Still sure dear Vyacheslav! You apparently did not serve as a motorized rifleman or paratrooper! For in this case, the commander of the car — there is a commot — the commander of the squad and his place in the BMD, exactly behind one of the students! And the machine gunner of the paratrooper squadron compartment (RPKS-74 / RPKSN-74) - In BMD, takes a place next to the Mekhan after the second PKT course.
                        Nothing complicated, you just need to know the organizational staff and armament of your aircraft and the enemy.
                        I have the honor!
                      9. +1
                        5 March 2019 08: 43
                        Maybe I didn’t understand you. How did I get excited?
                    2. 0
                      26 February 2019 18: 49
                      As a young man, I had a chance to attend NVP classes (summer tactical weekly camp at school / with PPSh (without a barrel and a shutter) MPL-90, all military instructor gave me out every morning) to visit our framing MSD. There we shot from the AKM and got acquainted with the BMP-1 and T-54. So, my attention was drawn to the hole in the frontal inclined armor plate T-54. A small hole, exactly in the middle of the sheet. It was clogged with a wooden chop. To my question, what is it, the tankman replied that this is a hole-window of a tightly mounted SG machine gun in a combat situation. A fire control trigger is located on the control lever of the tank at Mehana! Something like that, comrade! Therefore, in the T-54th there were up to three machine guns: 1. Anti-aircraft anti-aircraft anti-aircraft gun on the turret, 2nd SG - twin with a gun and 3rd - exchange rate in the frontal armor next to the Mekhan.
              2. +4
                26 February 2019 09: 30
                Quote: glory1974
                in addition to the radio station, he also fired from a machine gun, saving the tank from the enemy infantry. Therefore, no one could replace him.

                No, he stood guard, was looking for a place to stay, did the day work, and washed the car.
                1. 0
                  26 February 2019 15: 18
                  Quote: goose
                  No, he stood guard, was looking for a place to stay, did the day work, and washed the car.

                  And ran for food on PCBs, for the whole crew ...
                  1. +1
                    26 February 2019 17: 12
                    no, well, all the same, on su85-100, on the same family of 9-P radio stations, they were able to put her yuzanie on the commander
                    1. 0
                      26 February 2019 17: 32
                      Quote: prodi
                      no, well, all the same, on su85-100, on the same family of 9-P radio stations, they were able to put her yuzanie on the commander

                      And on ISs? Same picture
                      1. 0
                        26 February 2019 17: 47
                        it means, it should be recognized that at that time, all the giants, except the British, had an objective error in the layout, and that was probably from thoughtlessness
              3. 0
                1 March 2019 19: 03
                The T34 course machine gun was practically useless due to the impossibility of aimed fire from it during movement due to almost zero visibility and shaking.
                The shooting was carried out, as a rule, for purely psychological reasons, that is, "for an excuse"
    4. +4
      25 February 2019 17: 43
      Quote: svp67
      In the T-34, the gunner was clearly superfluous

      You're not right. The radio of the 41st year demanded to itself DC attention, adjustment, etc. Walkie-talkies, which could be poked once and no longer paid attention, appeared in the USSR only by LL.
      1. +3
        25 February 2019 19: 45
        Well, the frequency swam, and the band was probably very wide. Those. it was difficult to completely lose it, but with one handle to adjust the local oscillator to the right or left, it is quite possible to touch, if it is hard to hear
        1. +6
          26 February 2019 00: 46
          Quote: prodi
          Those. it was difficult to completely lose it, but with one handle to adjust the local oscillator to the right or left, it’s quite possible to touch,

          You were given a report above that you were completely lost.
          To the radio stations of the 71-TK family, the army made many complaints. It was noted that the equipment is cumbersome and takes up a lot of space in the fighting compartment, on radioficated tanks, because of this, the ammunition is reduced; control of the receiver and transmitter is too complicated; the station is not sufficiently protected from shaking and moisture; electrical and acoustic interference makes communication on the go almost impossible; real communication range is much less than passport; the transmitter overheats and requires frequent interruptions in operation. These shortcomings were not fully corrected in any modification of the radio station.

          Pay attention to the selected fragment. In real life, transmission at ranges of 30+, sometimes 10 + km is a transmission key.
          1. 0
            26 February 2019 07: 34
            That's it. If the shooter worked as a key, then it would be a serious qualification, but I don’t think they even heard about Morse code
        2. 0
          26 February 2019 04: 21
          Quote: prodi
          probably was very wide.

          No, there were too many low-quality spare parts inside that were rawly raw ...
          1. 0
            26 February 2019 07: 40
            it could be, from shaking the modes of amplifying lamps could go astray (for a moment), but here - either the radio works or not. Everything else - as before: one knob in one range
            1. 0
              26 February 2019 07: 41
              Quote: prodi
              from shaking, the modes of amplifying lamps could be lost (for a moment), but here - either the walkie-talkie is working, or not.

              In movement, only very high masters could work at our radio stations, and there were not many of them at all.
    5. +1
      26 February 2019 10: 49
      At the Mariupol plant they rolled armor for Nikgoszavod and for plant No. 183. The towers, from the tsarist times, were made in Nikolaev at the Naval plant, one of two Nikgoszavods.
      For the Leningrad shipbuilders, armor was rolled at the Izhora and Obukhov factories (the Bolshevik plant), and the towers were made mainly by the Metal Plant. The diameter of the epaulettes of the battleship tower is from 10 m or more. It is extremely irrational to use these machines for the production of tank towers. From Nikgoszavadov managed to take out only part of the equipment. There are more from Leningrad factories, but also not all.
      1. 0
        27 February 2019 17: 11
        Quote: Potter
        At the Mariupol plant they rolled armor for Nikgoszavod and for plant No. 183. The towers, from the tsarist times, were made in Nikolaev at the Naval plant, one of two Nikgoszavods.
        For the Leningrad shipbuilders, armor was rolled at the Izhora and Obukhov factories (the Bolshevik plant), and the towers were made mainly by the Metal Plant. The diameter of the epaulettes of the battleship tower is from 10 m or more. It is extremely irrational to use these machines for the production of tank towers. From Nikgoszavadov managed to take out only part of the equipment. There are more from Leningrad factories, but also not all.

        There are other machines, they can not be used for processing tank towers.
    6. 0
      27 February 2019 10: 44
      And for Kirovsky - on Izhora, the same naval initially feel My grandfather / as a worker of Izhorskiy / was evacuated to Chelyabinsk. Where these two factories at neighboring sites worked throughout the war.
  2. +8
    25 February 2019 15: 49
    His chassis was unreliable ...

    A small clarification, dear Andrei in terminology.
    Suspension - too coherent a term to call the entire suspension unreliable - no reason.

    Yet the correct term is transmission was not reliable - the checkpoint in particular.
    To the shock absorbers, caterpillar, track rollers, guides and driving wheels, no big claims were made.
    1. +3
      25 February 2019 16: 56
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      To shock absorbers

      On the T-34 they were not, there were springs
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      driving wheels no big claims.

      That’s what’s what, and there were a lot of complaints against them and all because of the crest engagement
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      caterpillar
      The same is separate and at first, a very "sad song" ... of the T-34 tank
    2. +3
      25 February 2019 17: 01
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      A small clarification, dear Andrei in terminology.
      Suspension - too coherent a term to call the entire suspension unreliable - no reason.

      Accepted :)))
  3. BAI
    +4
    25 February 2019 16: 03
    Thus, we see a very strange picture at first glance - a tank that is not fully expressed yet is first put into service, and then launched into a series. How reasonable was this decision? Based on our usual realities - of course, no matter how much.

    About this picture happened with the Panthers.
    1. +6
      25 February 2019 18: 38
      If interesting
      Album of photos and characteristics of the T-34 tank https://yadi.sk/i/t-ekDKRSbHIkCA


      The electrical circuit touches.
      Tank T-34 in battle. 1942 Short Guide- https://yadi.sk/i/G82Ms6Vspe93Dw
      Tank T-34_Guide - https://yadi.sk/i/tOqXC2rtRoSmGg
      1. BAI
        +2
        25 February 2019 23: 36
        So maybe it (the tank’s electrics) should be like this - the easiest so that it does not break and, in which case, is easily repaired? After all, the mechanics are quite complicated, but it is considered. that the T-34 is a simple tank, compared to German. I can imagine what was happening there among the Tigers and Panthers. There, the guide will obviously not be 240 pages, but much more.
      2. +2
        25 February 2019 23: 53
        Quote: igordok
        The electrical circuit touches.

        Fine. Anyone will figure it out on his knee.
        1. +3
          25 February 2019 23: 56
          Here is the Panther.
          1. +1
            1 March 2019 19: 12
            Norm, on the Lada and even more difficult
        2. +1
          26 February 2019 10: 31
          Quote: Mordvin 3
          Fine. Anyone will figure it out on his knee.

          And now we recall that 60% of privates in BTVs of the same KOVO have education from 1 to 3 classes.
          1. +2
            26 February 2019 11: 07
            Quote: Alexey RA
            And now we recall that 60% of privates in BTVs of the same KOVO have education from 1 to 3 classes.

            My grandfather was one of those. The mechanical drive on BT-7 with three education classes. And nothing, understood.
          2. +4
            26 February 2019 19: 14
            And one more "liar in the tar" - today, many shooting experts, as well as the soldiers of the Wehrmacht and the Finnish army in 1941, consider / whether the Soviet semi-automatic rifle SVT-40 - an outstanding Soviet small arms! But in the Red Army, especially the appointees and mobilized, they did not like it! Type: complex; wedges her; take a long time to disassemble, etc. etc.!!!! In my childhood I heard a lot of such fairy tales about SVETA from the soldiers !!! Until he himself encountered weapons and the attitude towards them in the SA! And until he felt this trunk and its work! So, I'll tell you my opinion: our people, of course, are heroic, but in June 1941 there was a lot of backward, simplistic people in them. My partner in the construction shop, he was an elderly war veteran, he told me a lot about how he himself fought and other Red Army soldiers next to him. So, in the winter near Moscow, in the 41st year, he observed such scenes "with oil", when a soldier, in order to open the breech of a mosinka, took a stone and knocked down the reloading handle, just to open the breech! and IT'S NOT IN A BATTLE SITUATION! Who served in the army knows how many of us feel about cleaning personal weapons, but nothing! So our beautiful, advanced SVT-40 turned out to be "bad" for our "in all excellent" warriors!
            I have the honor!
            1. +4
              27 February 2019 11: 31
              Quote: Pyotr Ivanov
              Those who served in the army know how many of us relate to cleaning personal weapons, but nothing!

              Just two quotes:
              In parts of 97 SD rifles manufactured in 1940. , which were on hand for no more than 4 months, up to 29% are reduced to a state of rust in the barrel, machine guns "DP" manufactured in 1939 to 14% also have a deterioration of the barrel channels.

              The disdainful attitude towards the instruction on the storage and conservation of weapons in military units / § 222, 242 /, ignorance of the device of automatic weapons, its disassembly rules were brought to such a state that automatic rifles "ABC", submachine guns "Degtyarev", when disassembled by hardening, started in the gas paths, the entire gas exhaust unit is covered with rust, the surface of the barrel and other parts are heavily rusty. The same state of gas paths and the DP machine guns.
              © The KOVO weapons verification act for the 1940th year.
              For reference: in 1940, the headquarters of the 97th SD was rated as the most advanced in the Red Army and was awarded the challenge prize of the General Staff. For the organization of combat and political training and troop training, the division commander, Major General I. Sherstyuk awarded the Order of the Red Banner.
              Quote: Pyotr Ivanov
              Today, many rifle experts, as well as soldiers of the Wehrmacht and the Finnish army in 1941, consider whether the Soviet semi-automatic rifle SVT-40 is an outstanding Soviet small arms! But in the Red Army, especially the scribes and mobilized, I disliked her! Type: difficult; wedges her; disassemble for a long time, etc. etc.!!!!

              Duc ... the fighter must first be trained in the use of SVT (there one gas regulator was worth it). And then force him to maintain the weapon in good condition. But this requires trained and experienced sergeants and foremen who are able to convey the necessary knowledge to the fighter and see to it that the fighter learns and applies this knowledge in practice. And they are not in 1939-1941 - the infantry not only gave the best personnel in the Air Force and BTV, but also doubled the number of rifle divisions, with a corresponding increase in staff. The level of training and education of the junior infantry command is clearly visible on the example of the same 97 sd:
              The knowledge of ordinary cadets is low.
              They do not know automatic weapons at all and are only able to carry rifles and pull the trigger. Extremely poor knowledge of the materiel of small arms and besides the gunners do not know the names of the parts of the machine gun "DP" and the revolver. The machine gunners do not know the name of the parts and rules for disassembling the rifle. To great shame, and chagrin, cadet regiment schools have lesser knowledge of small arms than the knowledge of the Red Army, and yet despite this they are issued by junior commanders.
              There is no need to talk about the rules, cleaning weapons, and their inspection by younger commanders.
              1. 0
                28 February 2019 15: 17
                I agree, almost one hundred percent! But here is my grandfather, he served as a sergeant-instructor-armor-gunner, in the reserve regiment of the Headquarters Reserve in the Urals, near Molotov, throughout the war. I had an unfinished higher pedagogical (mathematics / reading, I was not allowed to study further than the 3rd year Peda because of the "son of a fist")! So, they taught soldiers and sergeants spontaneously (during the war), 2 months, then they were in a brand new uniform, fresh weapons and on the front line!
                And one veteran, a very famous Soviet artist today, once told. That he graduated from the courses of commanders at the beginning of the war (then there were no officers in the spacecraft) and went to fight as a commander of a mortar, fire platoon with a rifle company ... his observations are interesting! He was deeply outraged by the fact that many fighters, after training (2 months !!!) came to the front, NOT TRAINED AT ALL! Such a non-singular fact is "wonderful": the soldier knew how to reload the mosinka, but did not suspect that the rifle had sights !!! He asked: "Well, is it really that, knowing that you are going to the front, and you do not care about combat training?" Just talk to such officers and such small details will be revealed that it will take your breath away!
                I have the honor!
              2. 0
                28 February 2019 15: 26
                One more thing!
                As an officer, as a fireman, I’ll say! It is not so difficult to prepare a soldier for possession of one of two types of small arms. For example: at the beginning of the Great Patriotic War it or a screw. Mosin / Nagana and say machine gun H. Maxima. Yes, and in peacetime! It is important to strictly and strictly follow the combat training plan of an individual soldier and as part of a unit!
                I remember: he fell ill and went to the medical unit for a week! So they brought me instruction on PC / PKM and RPG-7, and I figured it out even without trunks at hand! Although previously studied them in class! I still remember everything!
                I have the honor!
  4. +1
    25 February 2019 16: 23
    The author should first find out whether carriage and excavator machines are suitable for the production of tanks ... or is it still "slightly" different machines ...


    And at the same time to find out whether the "additional" Lend-Lease machines ordered in 1944 are the only machines of this type ordered ... or they were ordered before this date ... and how many of them were actually ordered and when ..


    About such a "trifle" as what actually "survived" from the pre-war machine park after the evacuation - how many did not manage to evacuate, how many were blown up, lost, irreversibly out of order - and there is nothing to say ...
    1. +5
      25 February 2019 17: 04
      Quote: Town Hall
      The author should first find out whether carriage and excavation machines are suitable for the production of tanks.

      Absolutely.
      Quote: Town Hall
      And at the same time to find out whether the "additional" Lend-Lease machines ordered in 1944 are the only machines of this type ordered. Or they have been ordered before

      If you find information that they were ordered before, and in large quantities - a pie from me. At the same time, it would be nice to explain why the Soviet Union, which until the fall-winter of 1943 didn’t think about tanks with a wide shoulder strap, would suddenly order a TKS with a large faceplate on the lend-lease.
      Quote: Town Hall
      About such a "trifle" as what actually "survived" from the pre-war machine park after the evacuation - how many did not manage to evacuate, how many were blown up, lost, irreversibly out of order - and there is nothing to say ...

      Well, for the 7 ICs, they turned the carousel right away.
      1. -1
        25 February 2019 17: 23
        The staff of the ENIMS institute trained the staff of adjusters and machine operators to work on imported multi-spindle and multi-tool machines in the spring of 1942.


        Do you have infa that the machines on which the ISs were made in wartime were exclusively "Soviet"?)
      2. -2
        25 February 2019 17: 24
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Absolutely



        No
        1. +4
          25 February 2019 17: 39
          Quote: Town Hall
          Do you have infa that the machines on which the ISs were made in wartime were exclusively "Soviet"?)

          No, of course, they could be imported, at least partially. Just because the USSR TCS purchased abroad and before the war
          Quote: Town Hall
          The staff of adjusters and machine operators to work on imported multi-spindle and multi-tool machines even in spring 1942, prepared

          Town Hall, why are you collecting everything in one pile? Multi-spindle machines and TCs are not the same thing. And what was taught in 1942 g - and before and after they were taught, or do you think we worked on TKS before the war?
          Quote: Town Hall
          No

          I understand that you really want this, but I can’t help with anything :)))) Yes, yes, and again - yes. TKS capable of working with the wheels of diesel locomotives and excavators are also capable of making tanks.
          1. 0
            25 February 2019 19: 16
            Suppose so good accordingly, if we remove the machinery from these industries, then, accordingly, production in these sectors will be spent, which also will not add defense capability hitanks do not go to the frontline on their own request
            1. BAI
              +2
              25 February 2019 23: 40
              And it sank. During the war years, the USSR did not make a single excavator. And many locomotives bought abroad, well, Lend-Lease if you want.
              1. -8
                26 February 2019 00: 19
                Machine tools for tanks and machine tools for steam locomotives are different machines
                1. AUL
                  +8
                  26 February 2019 07: 58
                  Quote: Town Hall
                  Machine tools for tanks and machine tools for steam locomotives are different machines

                  There are no machine tools for tanks and machine tools for steam locomotives. Machine tools process parts. And here are the options.
                2. +2
                  28 February 2019 18: 59
                  Quote: Town Hall
                  Machine tools for tanks and machine tools for steam locomotives are different machines

                  hi As a designer and mechanical engineer, and as the same universal turner, I will tell you honestly and frankly. If processed on the "carousel" (the word "lathe-" is usually omitted by the factory workers, since everyone already understands what they mean smile ) to the machine "the surfaces of the parts are of the same type and the parts in terms of dimensions" pass into the machine (including the "sweeping") ", then it is completely indifferent for what type of equipment they are intended for - whether for tanks, steam locomotives, or dredgers or mills, but at least for drilling rigs or submarine ships, this is a universal machine - today we sharpen parts for tanks, and tomorrow a conversion is announced - we process parts for cranes ...), otherwise it would not have paid for itself. Yes
          2. -5
            25 February 2019 19: 43
            Not capable)


            You again, as always, take an unverified source and, without subjecting it to critical analysis, build theories and "subvert" myths.


            Try to find the info about the entom machine 152, which supposedly was produced by the Sedina factory since the year 37 and which supposedly has a 2000 mm shoulder strap .... You just rewrote a word-for-word article of an Internet worker and did not bother to check his writings minimally ... it's not serious)
    2. +2
      25 February 2019 20: 42
      And at the same time to find out whether the "additional" Lend-Lease machines ordered in 1944 are the only machines of this type ordered ... or they were ordered before this date ... and how many of them were actually ordered and when ..

      ,, maybe the wrong type, but the equipment ordered.

      APPENDIX No.3
      to the Resolution of the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR and the Central Committee of the CPSU (b) No. 1216-502ss of 5 in May 1941 of Vedomosti
      imported equipment and materials allocated to the factories No. 183, STZ and 75 for
      production of T-34 tanks on 1941

      1. +2
        25 February 2019 20: 53
        This is the pre-war period. The Germans ordered it. And I meant in the war period. Because Lendliz machines were supplied from the end of 1941.
        1. 0
          26 February 2019 14: 44
          Town Hall (Town Hall) Yesterday, 21: 53


          ,,, that's just what specifications they were request





          Equipment worth 1 billion 095 million 140 thousand dollars was delivered to Russia, and machines and machines worth 310 million 058 thousand dollars, as well as military and naval generators, industrial furnaces, rolling equipment worth millions of dollars were delivered to Russia. mills, various metalworking and molding machines, excavating and dredging equipment, etc.

          Jones Robert. Lend-Lease. Roads to Russia (US Military Supplies for the USSR in World War II, 1941 – 1945)
    3. 0
      2 March 2019 18: 51
      Quote: Town Hall
      The author should first find out whether carriage and excavator machines are suitable for the production of tanks ... or is it still "slightly" different machines ...


      And at the same time to find out whether the "additional" Lend-Lease machines ordered in 1944 are the only machines of this type ordered ... or they were ordered before this date ... and how many of them were actually ordered and when ..


      About such a "trifle" as what actually "survived" from the pre-war machine park after the evacuation - how many did not manage to evacuate, how many were blown up, lost, irreversibly out of order - and there is nothing to say ...


      The author did not mention another important detail - at the end of 42 / early 43, at plant No. XXUMX, the T-183 tank was created, put into service and ready for serial production, the tower of which served as the basis for the T-43-34 tower and differed in including and increased diameter of the shoulder strap.

      This was already done in 1943, that is, at plant No. 183 in 43, it was already possible to manufacture tanks with a turret similar to T-34-85.

  5. +7
    25 February 2019 16: 25
    In general, the version of the miraculous performance of American machine tools crumbles to the bud.


    By the way, a very true remark on machines, from the respected Andrey - the cutting speed of machines, is limited not only by the cutting tool and its cooling. The nuance of turning - rotary machines - the size of the part is very large, large lateral loads impose restrictions on the speed of rotation and the sheared metal layer.
    That is, dramatically increase the cutting speed, American machines could not - accuracy - yes.
    With the accuracy of the USSR machine tool park, there were constant problems, therefore, machine tool building after the collapse of the USSR practically died.

    An instructive story was told to us at the department.
    We bought abroad a high-precision complex machine (back in Soviet times), gave a group of engineers the task of repeating and simplifying. They carry out the task - simplified - the parts are half as much - the accuracy of the machine is twice as bad ...
    And they worked ....
    1. +3
      25 February 2019 16: 58
      Quote: DimerVladimer
      With the accuracy of the USSR machine stock, there were constant problems

      og ... that’s why the lathes and milling machines with CNC were bought from storage, the electronics were sawn into Fanuk, and they were torn off with hands FOR ACCURACY. 82-85 onwards, it was from 2009-11.
      1. +6
        25 February 2019 18: 05
        As a practitioner, I say, the accuracy of domestic CNC machines (80-90 g) was approximately 1.5-2 times worse than imported (for example, Japanese, German, Swiss, Italian, etc.). It seems to me that this is a design flaw!
      2. +1
        27 February 2019 09: 49
        Quote: polar fox
        og ... that’s why the lathes and milling machines with CNC were bought from storage, the electronics were sawn into Fanuk, and they were torn off with hands FOR ACCURACY. 82-85 onwards, it was from 2009-11.


        I agree with Gennady - the accuracy of the machine park is twice inferior to imported samples - this is if you take fairly standard machines.
        If we take especially high-precision ones - for example, Swiss ones, after casting, the beds were lowered for several years to a certain depth of the lake, so that the metal of the bed would “choose” residual casting stresses and deformations - this is aerobatics on the machine tool market.

        Of course, no one did this in the USSR - the beds were released in the furnace and into processing - that few people were interested in the bed and then using a screw, everyone was interested in the shaft :))
  6. 0
    25 February 2019 16: 41
    To the question of terminology, undercarriage:

    RUNNING PART OF TANKS
    Vasily Chobitok
    http://militaryarticle.ru/tekhnika-i-vooruzhenie/2005/11616-hodovaja-chast-tankov
  7. +3
    25 February 2019 16: 44
    When will VO stop using the term "Fascist Germany"? Well, there was no such Germany, there was fascist Italy, and Germany was a Nazi.
    1. +12
      25 February 2019 17: 10
      Quote: mager1
      When will VO stop using the term "Fascist Germany"? Well, there was no such Germany

      Then, scientists will come to the final opinion that National Socialism in Germany is not fascism. Now this issue has not been resolved, there are those who believe that these are "two big differences" and there are those who consider National Socialism a kind of fascism
    2. 0
      25 February 2019 20: 52
      Read the statement of Stalin on this topic. He understood. National Socialism, in his opinion, had nothing to do with socialism and was named so only for popularity among the masses. And the Nazis were a militant detachment of the bourgeoisie, which provided the latter with the stability of profit. Therefore, the Nazis and the Germans were called.
      Nazism is a purely English term.
  8. 0
    25 February 2019 17: 05
    Quote: mager1
    When will VO stop using the term "Fascist Germany"? Well, there was no such Germany, there was fascist Italy, and Germany was a Nazi.

    "National Socialist" would be more correct. "Nazi" is for colloquial speech.
    1. +4
      25 February 2019 17: 57
      Let's not be smart, but call the enemy what he was called in the days of Stalin. Scientific disputes about fascism in Germany will lead to nothing but the whitening of these savages.
      1. +1
        25 February 2019 19: 20
        Quote: also a doctor
        Scientific disputes about fascism in Germany will not lead to anything,

        What makes you think that the separation of the Nazis and National Socialists will whitewash one of them?
        1. -1
          25 February 2019 21: 20
          It may not whitewash, but why separate these feces by grades?
          1. -3
            26 February 2019 00: 40
            Quote: MooH
            It may not whitewash, but why separate these feces by grades?

            Then, that rooted in Russia "Hitler = fascism" is a cheap slogan. These are different things and you need to deal with them separately.
            For one thing, other slogans like "victory over fascism" will go to the trash heap, which is also a big plus in itself.
  9. 0
    25 February 2019 17: 07
    Who can share a reference on the topic B-5? What dimension would he have or boost?
    1. +2
      25 February 2019 17: 50
      Duc like it was a forced "two" ....
      1. 0
        25 February 2019 18: 19
        if only this is about V-2 with a monitoring station from AM-34, but it was accelerated to 850 hp
        1. +1
          25 February 2019 19: 23
          At the end of 1940, the NII-1600 prepared another experimental V-34 diesel engine for sea trials in the T-5 tank with a change in adjustment in unrefined (500 hp at 800 rpm) and boosted (up to 650 hp at 2100 rpm) options. The latter were sent to Leningrad at the Kirov Plant for testing in KV tanks.
          1. 0
            26 February 2019 11: 44
            Quote: frog
            at 2100 rpm

            I wonder what motor resource in this case was achieved?
            1. 0
              26 February 2019 14: 00
              I suspect a so-so resource .... Especially, given the fact that at first it was also an unforged version. But the information on these motors is mouse tears.
          2. +1
            26 February 2019 16: 18
            Quote: frog
            (500 hp at 800 rpm)

            500 horses at 1 rpm.
            1. +1
              26 February 2019 18: 25
              Sorry, the eye did not catch))) Explicit typo ..... Thanks !!
        2. +1
          25 February 2019 19: 25
          The most impressive results were achieved when testing a modification of the V-2CH equipped with a supercharging system from a drive supercharger borrowed from the AM-38 aircraft engine: the capacity of the modified engine reached 850 hp One such diesel was sent to the Kirov Plant, where in June 1941 it passed sea trials in the experimental heavy tank KV-3.
  10. The comment was deleted.
  11. -2
    25 February 2019 17: 40
    Of course, this T-34 tank came out a bit late, to start the Second World War. It was a little damp, but during the war it went through a good modernization, after which, thanks to this, we won the war and went the generation of new tanks, such as the T-55, T-62, T-72 and T-90.
  12. -1
    25 February 2019 17: 55
    The author connects the sad events of the summer of 1941 with the technical condition of our tanks. in fact, the commanders simply did not know how to fight. When the nonsense of the command, which dreamed of ramming all-devastating attacks of thousands of tanks, was weakened due to the absence of these same thousands, our tankers quite successfully used the available equipment. And if the BT-7 was unsuitable for World War II, then what about the light T-70 and T-80? They were much weaker, but they fought more successfully. So the main cause of the accident of the 41st was not the defects of our tanks, but the reluctance to think and use armored vehicles in accordance with its capabilities and the capabilities of the aggressor.
    .
    My personal opinion: commanders and commissars were afraid to be repressed and to show the slightest "cowardice" in the eyes of their superiors. Therefore, instead of competent tactical control, they drove the masses of tanks and soldiers head-on. The Germans destroyed them and went forward. The newly assembled troops again, instead of competent defense, rushed into the attack and the cycle was repeated. And to try to apply the correct tactics meant to be defamed by the demagogues-commissars and shot. After all, after the battle, what was the attitude towards the survivors: survived means a coward and a traitor. Only around October 41 did they start to grow wiser, but even in 1943 stupid frontal attacks by tanks were used very widely.
    .
    If the authorities do not understand the nuances of work, then subordinates are forced to act stupidly (in 1941 it was a requirement to always attack) in accordance with the expectations of the authorities. If the authorities are not only stupid, but also weak, then subordinates begin to imitate activities. In war, this leads to defeat.
    In the second half of the war, our strong leadership began to drive the crowds a little smarter forward, without interfering in tactics and not requiring only attacking actions. They drove the unit to the front line, and then the soldiers want to live - get out. They’ve become smarter than war ...
    1. +5
      25 February 2019 19: 55
      commanders and commissars were afraid of being repressed and of showing the slightest "cowardice" in the eyes of their superiors. Therefore, instead of competent tactical control, they drove the masses of tanks and soldiers head-on. The Germans destroyed them and went forward.

      Firstly, an article about the technical aspects of the tank, and not about tactics.
      Secondly, why did you get the idea that the commander is not being repressed for the unnecessarily ruined units. Read the memoirs of the front-line soldiers, did not finish the task, lost people and equipment - in court.
    2. +4
      25 February 2019 21: 28
      It is not necessary to tie everything to repression and stupidity. It must be understood that most of the junior and middle commanders did not possess the necessary theoretical knowledge or combat experience in their posts. In addition, at that time there was no generally accepted theory of defensive actions when the enemy used blitzkrieg tactics.
      Do you think the French army suffered greatly, just like the English expeditionary force from the Stalinist repressions and demagogues of the commissars?
      1. +1
        26 February 2019 20: 43
        Quote: MooH
        It must be understood that most of the junior and middle commanders did not possess the necessary theoretical knowledge or combat experience in their posts.

        But is this not a consequence of repressions and (or) foolishness? -) If the ineral could not put the colonels of intelligence on the shelves and teach them to steer these regiments, then he or there is no one to arrange. From the change of ranks the principle does not change)
        1. -1
          26 February 2019 20: 46
          There are two possible reasons for incomplete service compliance:
          1. stupidity
          2. A sharp increase in the number of sun and massive rearmament.
          1. +3
            26 February 2019 21: 02
            Quote: MooH
            2. A sharp increase in the number of sun and massive rearmament.

            This is the same first reason) To embark on the rearmament and growth of the Armed Forces without increasing (outstripping) the volume of training of command personnel - this is nonsense)))
            1. -1
              26 February 2019 21: 32
              Or the need dictated by a sharp change in the foreign policy situation. The question lies in the evaluation plane. For almost any nonsense, a rationale can be made. Conversely, an outwardly logical act can be inspired by cerebral spasm or an attack of hemorrhoids.
    3. +1
      26 February 2019 07: 31
      Quote: also a doctor
      And if the BT-7 was unsuitable for World War II, then what about the light T-70 and T-80? They were much weaker, but they fought more successfully.

      Moreover, I’ll tell you, the bulk of modern Russian armored vehicles is inferior in armoring to the same BT-7) Nevertheless, our generals and patriots from this site (those who threw minuses to you), argue that this technique is quite suitable for a MODERN battlefield , where the saturation with anti-tank weapons is ORDERED (i.e. 10 times or more) more)
      1. 0
        26 February 2019 19: 48
        If you mean infantry fighting vehicles, armored personnel carriers, motorcycle leagues, etc., then undoubtedly their booking is comparable to the BT-7, but the concept of their use differs from the use of tanks, which BT was then, and now they are T-72,80,90, 60, and it makes no sense to compare their booking with BT. "Light T-70 and T-80" (more correctly, the release of the T-7 is minimal) was not produced from a good life, and as soon as the conditions allowed, their production was curtailed, but their success compared to BT-70 ... The last Kwantung Army they beat me, but the T-XNUMX was not, but that does not mean anything at all.
        1. +2
          26 February 2019 21: 17
          Quote: volodimer
          If you mean infantry fighting vehicles, armored personnel carriers, motorcycle leagues, etc., then undoubtedly their reservation is comparable to the BT-7, but the concept of their use differs from the use of tanks, which the BT was then, and now it is the T-72,80,90, XNUMX,

          Speak what ?! and then BMP along with tanks now, according to the charter, do not go into attacks ?! So look at the Syrians ..
          No need to appeal to concepts and sculpt left otmazy. People come up with concepts. People use the technique. And wars are won by people. If on
          1. -1
            27 February 2019 01: 07
            The Syrians attack and "shilki" go, what is the task of the air defense system? This is not from a good life, but from a lack of tanks. And when tanks were thrown at them, they noticeably changed their tactics and their BMPs themselves had already ceased to climb forward. A video was posted here with an analysis of their actions.
            1. 0
              1 March 2019 20: 38
              Quote: volodimer
              The Syrians attack and "shilki" go, what is the task of the air defense system? This is not from a good life, but from a lack of tanks. And when tanks were thrown at them, they noticeably changed their tactics and their BMPs themselves had already ceased to climb forward. A video was posted here with an analysis of their actions.
              All of you write correctly. Not from a good life cardboard armor is sent to battle. The thing is different. What am I trying to convince you and the comrade whom I quoted? Yes, the fact is that tanks are not fighting, but people are fighting. Here we take this article. The author (with all due respect to Andrei from Chelyabinsk) called this series of articles devoted to the T-34 very provocative and, in my opinion, not entirely correct. Why? But why! Imagine the 41st year, for example, the month of August, an open field, even, three or four kilometers long. And along this field, the T-34 and the troika go head to head towards each other. Which of them on this level field during an attack will remain head-on-head - correctly, with a very high probability, it will be a troika. If we change the three to four in August 41st - the situation does not change in a coordinated way. And, imagine, the same field, but already at 45 m. Let's say wherever you are in February. And towards each other on this field goes t-34-85 (I'm not greedy) and a panther. Who will stay on the field? That's right, with a very high probability, this remaining machine will be the T-34. In the case of the tiger, this probability will only increase. It turns out that the T-34 especially never lost a three-ruble note or four and especially did not win against tigers and panthers? But what about the results of the war?
              That's how! when the t-34 "lost" to three and four, Luftwaffe aviation reigned in the sky ... Germany was a country that headed a bloc of powerful allied powers, its industry did not know the words "bombing", "lack of materials", "lack of personnel", etc. similar words. And the USSR was, in fact, a country - an outcast, a country that was, if not in isolation, then in a very ambiguous position, because it opposed itself to the rest of the world order, declaring the need for a world revolution. And the industry of the USSR very quickly learned such words as "bombing", "evacuation", "personnel shortage" and other delights. And everything, mind you, everything was the other way around at 45 meters. The Germans were isolated, bombs were falling on German cities and factories, and so on. And, the degree of armoring of tanks did not decide much. For every tricky cork you can find a corkscrew with the appropriate cutting step. For the Germans at 41 meters, the Acht-Acht and the Luftwaffe became such a "spin". At 45 meters we had a whole anti-cork set of heavy tanks, self-propelled guns, anti-tank guns and all the same aircraft. It was possible to pick up something similar at 41, but, as the famous horse said from a bearded anecdote: "Well, I didn't shmog. No-shmog-la!"
    4. +2
      26 February 2019 10: 48
      Quote: also a doctor
      My personal opinion: commanders and commissars were afraid to be repressed and to show the slightest "cowardice" in the eyes of their superiors. Therefore, instead of competent tactical control, they drove the masses of tanks and soldiers head-on.

      Everything is much simpler: in 1941 the tanks were actually attached to the infantry. And the infantry commanders commanded the tankers, who did not know the characteristics of the BTV, but they were sure that the tank was an indestructible machine that would do everything itself, and the infantry would only take the area.
      Actually, the level of training of infantry commanders in the BTV unit was shown at the SPS:
      Pavlov - Unfortunate fate befell us in the Red Army - and during any war will suffer - our division tanks. You will excuse my harshness, but I must say bluntly: all that was stated that tanks were necessary in order to teach interaction, today it turned out to be a bluff, no interaction was taught. More than 7 thousand tanks are scattered across divisions and they did not play any role. They were helpless.

      PAVLOV - I ask you to keep this in mind. The field manual of infantry in tank units is studied more than the tank manual, because the tank must adapt to the actions of the infantry. And I ask you not to look at the tanker in such a way that the flamethrower tanks can be given the task: "Go 7 km ahead and burn the enemy out there in the forest" - or say: "We will throw bombs at your company if you don’t guard us when we go to dinner or to the bathhouse ".

      Quote: also a doctor
      And to try to apply the right tactics meant to be deceived by the commissioner demagogues and executed. After all, after the battle, what was the attitude of the survivors: surviving means a coward and a traitor.

      To use the right tactics was to win. Surely all the victors were shot?
      ... the brigade took the path of firmly fulfilling the constitutional requirements both in relation to the organization of intelligence and in relation to the organization of defense itself. The defense was resilient by [creating] tank firing points both in front and in depth. Moreover, the firing points were nomadic, which did not decipher the defense. In short, the organization of defense was carried out strictly according to the charter.
      © "Reviews of the combat operations of tank brigades from August 25, 1941 to January 27, 1942".
  13. +1
    25 February 2019 18: 14
    Aha ha. The author of the fellow, rolled our Israeli "partners" into a nut.
    After all, it was from their submission was a stuffing about machines.
    1. -8
      26 February 2019 10: 15
      Quote: lucul
      Aha ha. The author of the fellow, rolled our Israeli "partners" into a nut.
      After all, it was from their submission was a stuffing about machines.

      He rolled out, the author, first of all himself, and in a thin pancake, with his complete ignorance of the topic on which he tried to sprinkle an opus.
  14. +5
    25 February 2019 18: 19
    Then it was decided to send 2 experimental tanks from Kharkov to Moscow on their own, in order to “wind up the counter”, but during this run the chassis had significant problems: for example, in Belgorod, one of the vehicles had its main friction clutch broken.
    Some historians claim that this was due to the driver’s fault, but generally speaking, the tanks were driven by mechanic testers with exceptional driving experience, who, among other things, “drove” hundreds of kilometers into the T-34 before the start of the race. Consequently, the error looks dubious, and if it was a mistake, it indicates the extreme complexity of management: it is clear that one should not have expected testing qualifications from combat mechanics.

    It was not only the mechanical drives - as the T-34 military operation showed, the main clutch had a serious design flaw:
    District engineer at the factory number 183 military engineer 2 ranks comrade Kozyrev
    Copy: to the head of the 1st department of the Armored Command of the spacecraft, military engineer of the 1st rank comrade Pavlov, chief of the 3rd division of the Armored Command of the spacecraft to a military engineer of the 1st rank comrade Afonin
    December 1940
    On the subject: defects of the main friction clutch of the T-34 machine.
    When receiving the first T-34 machines at STZ, a defect was discovered: failure to turn off and burning the main clutch discs.
    The audit found that the friction clutch parts were manufactured and installed on the machine in accordance with the drawings and technical specifications of Plant No. 183.
    When analyzing the causes of the defect, I found that they are of a purely constructive nature and consist in a small value of the diametrical clearance between the gearbox [gear changes], the ring off and the ball ...
    When choosing the specified gap, slipping and burning of the main clutch discs occurs.
    The clearance that occurs in the assembled machine on the conveyor belt decreases the first time the clutch is turned on under load, with the engine running, and after several starts it completely disappears ...
    Disks of the main friction clutch wear out especially quickly when the machine is operating in difficult road conditions, when starting off, when shifting gears ...
    I made a decision (and I recommend that you ask the factory) to open the machines that passed the acceptance tests and set a gap of 1 mm ... so that the cars that arrived at the unit can pass at least 200-250 km ...
    The main clutch in its current design is not suitable for work, it is necessary to force efforts to improve it in every way ...
    Senior Military Representative GABTU KA Military Engineer 2 Rank Levin
  15. +1
    25 February 2019 19: 07
    author, as always offset good
  16. +1
    25 February 2019 19: 21
    Quote: also a doctor
    Let's not be smart, but call the enemy what he was called in the days of Stalin. Scientific disputes about fascism in Germany will lead to nothing but the whitening of these savages.


    And what has Stalin got to do with it? Under Stalin, they were called fascists, because in Italy the fascists came to power in the 20s and this word was fixed in the language earlier. By the way, the fascists and the National Socialists have completely different regimes, and you should not confuse them. And the "Nazis" were brought to us by the Anglo-Saxons with their love to reduce. They cut off the communists to "commis" too. And now that the commist Stalin was coming out?
    1. 0
      25 February 2019 20: 12
      fascists and national socialists have completely different regimes, and should not be confused.

      The German fascists had a national socialist party, but they did not stop being fascists from this.
      e.g. wikipedia:
      Fascism is also seen as a state system that existed in some European countries (most often these include Germany during the reign of Adolf Hitler and Italy under Mussolini) - fascist states until the end of World War II
  17. 0
    25 February 2019 20: 31
    Quote: glory1974
    fascists and national socialists have completely different regimes, and should not be confused.

    The German fascists had a national socialist party, but they did not stop being fascists from this.
    e.g. wikipedia:
    Fascism is also seen as a state system that existed in some European countries (most often these include Germany during the reign of Adolf Hitler and Italy under Mussolini) - fascist states until the end of World War II


    How bae refer to pedivikia, which refers to God knows what, bad manners. In the USSR, a sea of ​​propaganda literature was published, where "fascists were branded", so what? As a general term, fascism was also used, but this is incorrect, it just happened in the USSR. It's just silly even in a serious discussion. You will read what fascist Italy was like, and you will understand that there is nothing in common with Hitler's Germany. Generally. As if starting with the fact that there was a monarchy and the Nazis rejected the ideology of racial superiority. In the rest of the world, there is a clear distinction between Italian fascists and German Nazis, and only here everything is in a bunch. We are no longer at war with either the Nazis or the Nazis, you can correctly name it, why are there propaganda labels? But you probably proceed from the fact that if "bull" is written on the cage with the lion, then there is a bull and there is nothing to argue about.
    1. 0
      25 February 2019 21: 36
      But are the Frankists and Finns also not fascists? Let’s deal with all the self-names and we will dignify everyone correctly. At the same time, we will rename the countries. What will we call Germany? Deutschland or the Millennium Reich?
    2. +3
      26 February 2019 00: 33
      Quote: Demagogue
      In the USSR, a sea of ​​propaganda literature was published, where "fascists were branded", so what?

      The story of Gavril was concluded in seventy-two lines. At the end of the poem, the letter-bearer Gavril, struck down by a fascist bullet, nevertheless delivers a letter to the address.
      “Where did the thing happen?” - asked Lyapis.
      The question was legal. There are no fascists in the USSR, and Gavril and members of the communications workers union are not abroad.
      -- What's the matter? - said Lyapis. - The matter is happening, of course, with us, and the fascist is dressed up.

      The novel is of the 27th year, and the USSR is already struggling with fascism, as it can. Accordingly, when the NSDAP came to power in Germany (and even more so when they quarreled with it), it was too late to rebuild. Yes, and write about the nationalsocialists - only confuse the Soviet people. You never know what unnecessary thoughts will come to mind due to an accidental coincidence of names.
  18. -1
    25 February 2019 21: 45
    Andrei, about the machines you ate them all cool !!! I applaud while standing! I always considered the Lendlis story dubious and foul-smelling, but had no evidence.
    There is still a completely similar story with gun barrels and Grabinsky anti-tank 57mm, if you find the time I would be grateful for the analysis.
    1. -4
      26 February 2019 10: 18
      Quote: MooH
      Andrei, about the machines you ate them all cool !!! I applaud while standing! I always considered the Lendlis story dubious and foul-smelling, but had no evidence.
      There is still a completely similar story with gun barrels and Grabinsky anti-tank 57mm, if you find the time I would be grateful for the analysis.

      On the contrary, these are the machines (those that were really required for processing the towers) to the full extent of the hapless author.
      1. -1
        26 February 2019 11: 56
        that is, tanks at the beginning of the 44th went without towers?
        1. -1
          26 February 2019 12: 30
          Quote: Yuri_999
          that is, tanks at the beginning of the 44th went without towers?

          The towers were processed exclusively by imported machines. Read the comments at the bottom of the discussion, about Soviet machine tools, more precisely, about their real size of the diameter of the semi-automatic machine.
          1. 0
            26 February 2019 12: 38
            Well, the conversation was about Lend-Lease in 1944.
      2. +1
        26 February 2019 20: 36
        On the contrary, these are the machines (those that were really required for processing the towers) to the full extent of the hapless author.

        I do not observe such a picture. Perhaps a little bit corrected with the steam locomotive, and even then without solid evidence. The rest is not disproved.
  19. -1
    25 February 2019 22: 06
    Quote: MooH
    But are the Frankists and Finns also not fascists? Let’s deal with all the self-names and we will dignify everyone correctly. At the same time, we will rename the countries. What will we call Germany? Deutschland or the Millennium Reich?


    You first define what "fascists" are, give a precise definition, and then you will understand who is who.
    1. 0
      26 February 2019 20: 34
      Why do I need it?
  20. 0
    25 February 2019 23: 09
    Quote: MooH
    What will we call Germany? Deutschland or the Millennium Reich?

    Well, why so formal. You can just Heimat. smile
    If it’s so interesting, you can read about the Holy Roman Empire by clicking on the link just below.
    https://diletant.media/articles/31949640/

    PS
    1. +1
      26 February 2019 20: 42
      What is this for you? Two are also in the form "for preschoolers". Do you think you've heard about the Holy Roman Empire here? And the rest of the bast soup slurp?
      1. -1
        26 February 2019 22: 28
        What are you doing?

        Yes, all the same.
        Two are also in the form "for preschoolers".

        Well, that will be clearer to you.
        Do you think you’ve heard of the Holy Roman Empire alone?

        And, if you heard, then why are you asking stupid questions. Smart people are distracted from the essence of the topic under discussion.
        And the rest with cabbage soup slurp?

        I am not distracted by the gastronomic features of others. I prefer to look at my plate from a Saxon porcelain.
        1. -1
          26 February 2019 23: 08
          There was a better opinion of you negative aufiderzeyn, ubermenz horseradish. My minus. First for 2019.
          1. 0
            27 February 2019 09: 46
            There was a better opinion of you negative aufiderzeyn, ubermenz horseradish. My minus. First for 2019.

            From your lips it sounds like praise. Thank you for the honor. Alles gute. smile
  21. +5
    25 February 2019 23: 28
    Teeth cutting shoulder straps of the T-34 tank turret. Plant number 183. 1942 year.

    Another machine.
    By the way, it was, by definition, easier than the one for turning turrets.
    photo, like the photo in the article, taken from
    Ustyantsev, S.V .; Kolmakov, D.G.
    Fighting vehicles of the Uralvagonzavod. Tank T-34
    https://www.libex.ru/detail/book527941.html
    honestly, the article is not very convincing about the availability of machines capable of processing shoulder straps, or that there were no orders for Lend-Lease before the release of T 34-85.
    The opinion that the release of the t-34-85 was impossible due to the lack of machine tools, is so widespread, including among the authors, who are respected enough that it can only be refuted using more weighty arguments than general reasoning, in my opinion.
    1. -3
      25 February 2019 23: 57
      The author’s reasoning is just a reprint of one Internet fake walking on the network, which the author did not even bother to check minimally
      1. 0
        26 February 2019 00: 12
        Yes, I read it.
        1. +1
          26 February 2019 00: 31
          From the article:


          And in 1937, in the USSR, at the same factory, two turning and rotary machines 152 with a processing diameter of 2000 mm were manufactured. The exact number of manufactured machines, alas, is unknown



          Alas, it is known. Rotary machines with a working diameter of 2000 mm were produced 0 (zero). And from 1600 mm, also zero. And from 1500-0. And not only in 1937. But also in 38 and in 39 and in 40 and so on. further until 49



          The first turning and rotary machine
          From 1922 to 1935, a time of uncertainty. The plant was transferred to various government structures, dealing with the production of drilling tools to the repair of tractors. In 1935. The government decided to master in the Soviet Union the production of the entire range of standard sizes of lathes and carousel machines existing abroad. July 29, 1935 The Sedin Krasnodar Machine-Building Plant was transferred to Glavstankoinstrument. A large number of rotary lathes were required to process parts with a diameter of up to 3 meters, and they were scheduled to be produced at the Sedin Krasnodar Machine-Tool Plant. Due to the lack of experience in creating machines of this type in our country, the design of the first domestic single-column carousel machine with the largest diameter of the workpiece to 1000 mm was conducted by the Moscow Experimental Research Institute of Metal-Cutting Machines (ENIMS). By the end of 1935, the technical documentation for the model 152 machine was transferred to the Sedin plant, with the need for its refinement and production of a prototype. In August 1937, the model 152 single-column lathe-boring machine made for the first time in our country was adopted by the State Commission with a rating of “fit for use”. A total of 1036 machine tools of the 152 model were produced.


          1949


          2nd generation machines
          In 1948, using the archives of design developments brought from Germany, and on the basis of the first, still pre-war, own experience in manufacturing two-rack-mount rotary machines of the first generation, the Terms of Reference for the design of a gamut consisting of four models of two-rack rotary machines of the second generation with the diameter of the workpieces were developed 1600, 2000, 2500 and 3200 mm. And in November 1949, the State Commission of the Ministry adopted a prototype model 1551 machine. A total of 2450 model 1551 machines were produced.


          http://www.k-zts.ru/history.html
  22. +2
    25 February 2019 23: 34
    Good afternoon, dear colleague!

    I fundamentally decided for myself not to comment on this cycle, but I can not resist one question that worries me:
    I don’t see any technical problems of making a lathe in the USSR in the 1930s, suitable for machining a circle with a diameter of two meters, I also don’t see any technical problems of cutting the teeth with a mill on this circle. They will tell me here that the accuracy of the cutter is insufficient, and I will ask for proof)

    What do you think?
    1. +1
      25 February 2019 23: 40
      Moreover, I recently read about the artisanal method of cutting teeth on the flywheel of a motorcycle by drilling holes and then cutting down the jumpers. The technology is readily available for the mid-19th century machine park, if not earlier.
      1. +3
        25 February 2019 23: 42
        by drilling holes and then cutting off the jumpers


        the joke came in, at 100500%, but I'm seriously talking about the cutter
        1. 0
          25 February 2019 23: 51
          This is not a joke, this is a real person did.
          1. +1
            25 February 2019 23: 52
            Yes, I understand what I did, just for the tank I see some problems with the complexity and accuracy)
            1. 0
              25 February 2019 23: 53
              For a motorcycle, the problems are exactly the same. But if you really want to ...
          2. 0
            25 February 2019 23: 52
            Photo to the studio


            1. +2
              25 February 2019 23: 56
              belay good
              but, it’s how much time and effort is needed to handle the epaulete like that - it’s a little more recourse
              1. 0
                26 February 2019 00: 20
                There is no barrier to patriots wassat A normal person and a flywheel will not drill. Either buy a ready-made factory one for a couple of thousand, or take it to the nearest factory. But if you didn’t bring the machine, you won’t do it yourself, but do you have to make tanks?
              2. -2
                26 February 2019 00: 24
                You confuse the cutting of teeth and the processing of shoulder straps.
                1. 0
                  26 February 2019 00: 34
                  You confuse the cutting of teeth and the processing of shoulder straps.
                  and the teeth in the photo are not gear teeth, they do not transmit torque


                  did not understand your thought:



                  can you help in the realization of the above by me?
    2. -3
      26 February 2019 00: 14
      with a milling cutter is not a problem, each tooth is cut separately.
      but with large diameter processing, the problem is, you need to withstand the precision of processing
      1. +3
        26 February 2019 00: 23
        I understand that it’s difficult, but the railway wheels, for example, somehow sharpened massively
        1. 0
          26 February 2019 00: 34
          it is different.
          the tower shoulder is an angular contact rolling bearing with internal lubrication of large diameter.
          and violation of the accuracy of processing will lead to the fact that the load on the individual balls will be uneven.
          1. +4
            26 February 2019 00: 35
            and nothing will happen to the engine from a violation of accuracy?
            1. 0
              26 February 2019 01: 32
              it is an external rim, it rests on a rail, there are no such accuracy requirements as bearings.
              1. +1
                26 February 2019 17: 17
                Quote: Avior
                it is an external rim, it rests on a rail, there are no such accuracy requirements as bearings.

                But nothing that the load is transverse to this bearing, then what's the difference?
                1. 0
                  26 February 2019 20: 59
                  both radial and transverse in this case.
                  tower support is a radial transverse bearing
            2. -1
              26 February 2019 21: 00
              requirements are different.
              the bearing has mating surfaces, there is a different qualification number.
              1. 0
                26 February 2019 21: 06
                there is another number of qualifications.


                theoretically yes, it should be different, practically did not see the numbers
                1. -1
                  26 February 2019 22: 25
                  for mating surfaces, the quality number is, in principle, less than for non-mating surfaces.
                  1. 0
                    26 February 2019 22: 30
                    for mating surfaces, the quality number is, in principle, less than for non-mating surfaces.


                    request this is not an indisputable fact in all cases, but simply a general rule

                    I understand this and wrote for a reason three times:
                    But you can’t leave the vertical load on one ball and send the radial load on the other (second ring) - the requirements for processing accuracy (each row has one critical surface) will noticeably decrease. Or am I dumb?


                    and in the end, he concluded about the possibility of a wide shoulder strap in 1940-1943:
                    would say decide "at any cost", one would think
                    1. -1
                      26 February 2019 23: 36
                      But you can’t leave the vertical load on one ball and send the radial load on the other (second ring) - the requirements for processing accuracy (each row has one critical surface) will noticeably decrease. Or am I dumb?

                      all the same, it will determine the quality of surface treatment under vertical load. if the machine does not provide it, then two rows will not change anything.
                      and if it provides, all the more
                      1. 0
                        26 February 2019 23: 55
                        all the same, it will determine the quality of surface treatment under vertical load.


                        Yes, it’s understandable, but still it’s easier and more reliable than two connected critical surfaces
        2. -1
          26 February 2019 00: 51
          Railway Wheel Processing Machine
          The plant named after Sedin was supposed to start producing machines for processing railway wheels in the early forties, but the war prevented this. To process the railway wheels, a special machine 1502 was designed, which was equipped with four calipers (two of them with electrocopying devices) and performed a full cycle of processing stamped-rolled steel billets, including a rough boring of the bore hole, trimming of the end face of the hub and finishing of a complex profile rolling rim. The loading and unloading of the wheel blank on the faceplate of both machines was carried out by two cantilever slewing cranes. Centering and clamping the workpiece on the faceplate were carried out with hydraulic clamps. A total of 63 machines of the 1502 model were produced.



          For tanks, model 1551.



          Not the same machine for steam locomotives. Because it is 2 different difficulty tasks. The tank is much more complicated
          1. +2
            26 February 2019 08: 56
            Quote: Town Hall
            A special 1502 machine was designed for machining railway wheels.

            Yes, but similar detailing arose after the war. And it didn’t mean at all that one couldn’t do another
  23. +2
    26 February 2019 00: 44
    what is the difference between the shoulder straps of a tower and the wheel of a steam locomotive?
    in fact, the tower shoulder strap, or rather, the tower support as a whole, is a rather serious device, in fact a large-diameter angular contact rolling bearing.
    And insufficient processing accuracy will lead to an increase in the load on individual balls, which will lead to their destruction and jamming of the tower.
    There are no such problems in the case of the outer surface of the wagon wheel.
    Therefore, the analogies that Andrei took from a rather well-known wandering runet on a small dubious article are completely inapplicable.

    This ball tower tower is in fact a very large diameter ball bearing that requires the highest precision manufacturing. Therefore, references to the manufacture of the wheel are wrong in the principle of very different parts with large differences in requirements for machining accuracy.

    "Ball bearing tower
    Ball tower support (Fig. 21) provides ease of rotation of the tower around its vertical axis.
    The support consists of the lower shoulder strap 1, the upper shoulder strap 5 and 120 balls 2 in the separator ring 3. The lower and
    the upper shoulder straps are a flat ring with a shoulder restricting the movement of balls in
    radial direction. On shoulder straps there is a goniometer circle for firing from closed positions.
    The lower shoulder strap is mounted on the roof of the tank. On its inner circumference there is a gear rim, with
    which engages the gear of the turret swivel mechanism.
    The upper shoulder strap is attached to the support ring 4, welded to the tower. Capture sectors are attached to the shoulder strap
    6, covering the bottom end of the lower shoulder strap, which protects the tower from tipping over. Ring gear
    epaulettes is surrounded by annular shields 7 attached to the upper epaulette. To ensure normal
    ball support work must be plentifully lubricated cross-country; paths and balls: in warm time
    solid oil, and in winter a mixture of 50% solid oil and 50% MZ aviation oil. "

    http://wio.ru/tank/manual/t34manual2.htm
    Andrei, in my opinion, was too confident in the arguments from an article roaming the Runet. For him, this, let's say, is not very typical.
    1. 0
      26 February 2019 01: 07
      Dear colleague! Well, I myself quoted the manual)

      And insufficient processing accuracy will lead to an increase in the load on individual balls, which will lead to their destruction and jamming of the tower.


      A positive deviation is unacceptable (understandable), but is not a negative deviation compensated by a large number of points (balls)?
      But you can’t leave the vertical load on one ball and send the radial load on the other (second ring) - the requirements for processing accuracy (each row has one critical surface) will noticeably decrease. Or am I dumb?
      1. -1
        26 February 2019 01: 13
        pick up the bearing and you will see what precision of processing there.
        any deviation from the dimensions above the permissible limits will lead to the fact that the load at any given time will not fall on all the balls, but only on the part, which will lead to their rapid wear and destruction.
        There should be two parallel surfaces.

        Excuse me, but I saw your post with an excerpt from the manual when I wrote mine.
        1. 0
          26 February 2019 08: 30
          Good morning, dear colleague!
          any deviation from the dimensions above the permissible limits will lead to the fact that the load at any given time will not fall on all the balls, but only on the part, which will lead to their rapid wear and destruction.

          theoretically, this is initially perfectly understandable, but still I had the following doubts:
          There are formulas for calculating the dynamic and static strength of the bearings, of course, I don’t have primary data for this, but there are a lot of bearings and they are not small, because something tells me that the requirements for shoulder straps were probably overestimated (well, like 10 shots from one 000 mm gun)
          and more about surfaces:
          But you can’t leave the vertical load on one ball and send the radial load on the other (second ring) - the requirements for processing accuracy (each row has one critical surface) will noticeably decrease. Or am I dumb?
          well, plus, since such a problem, then I would suggest introducing a "stopper for mounting the tower in a marching manner" to reduce wear and tear (it is clear that the proposal is already in alternative), but this is me about what, they would say, decide at any cost, would think.
          If you explain what I'm stupid about, I won’t be offended, but I will be grateful, the shoulder straps of the tank towers are not mine at all, but I’m ready to develop)
          1. -2
            26 February 2019 09: 00
            it is unlikely that we will now be able to change the design of the tower of the 40s of the last century so that the manufacturers of that time were able to take advantage of our efforts laughing
            and it is doubtful that we could seriously carry out the development of such a rather complicated device in the framework of this discussion.
            If you have a desire to do this, you should consider the designs of similar tank assemblies of that time and try to find a solution that existed then that matches your suggestions, from which engineers of that time could choose according to their experience.
            I saw, for example, one with the T-28 - I did not see any fundamental difference with the T-34.
            The same complex knot.
            1. 0
              26 February 2019 09: 26
              it is unlikely that we will now be able to change the design of the tower of the 40s of the last century so that the manufacturers of that time were able to take advantage of our efforts laughing

              who knows) theoretically, a tank in battle does not live long. and in the campaign there are two plates with holes in the front and two in the back on the towers and on bolts to the same ones on the case = shock loads in the campaign will decrease sharply (primarily due to the elimination of unevenness), you can already try to significantly reduce the accuracy requirements, and again do not forget about two rows of balls
              it is clear that no one will count it now, but they would say "at any cost, do epaulettes in 1850" - you could try a lot of things)
        2. +4
          26 February 2019 11: 01
          pick up the bearing and you will see what precision of processing there.

          This is an absolutely wrong comparison - you can not compare rpm. and longevity requirements (measured in terms of the same rpm) of the bearing and tower shoulder straps.
          And in general this is your argument Avior colleague about what? What requirements for accuracy of shoulder straps in 1600mm are much higher than to shoulder straps in 1420mm?)) Or that for a locomotive / railway wheel a large eccentricity is permissible? laughing On the contrary, it is permissible for a tower (~ 1 rpm)
          1. 0
            26 February 2019 13: 44
            Or, for a locomotive / railway wheel, a large eccentricity is permissible? laughing On the contrary, it is permissible for a tower (~ 1 rpm)

            First of all, we are not talking about eccentricity, but about the load in the longitudinal direction.
            And the rotation speed there is a secondary characteristic.
            By analogy, this is the side surface of the flange of the wheel.
            It should also be borne in mind that the railway wheels slip along the rails in the course of movement, the flange also slides along the rails, this is absolutely normal for them during operation, therefore, in principle, there can be no such high requirements as in a rolling bearing, where there is no slippage no or should not be.
            1. +3
              26 February 2019 15: 08
              therefore, in principle, there cannot be such high requirements as in a rolling bearing

              This phrase refers 100% to tower shoulder straps, and it’s not only the rotation speed (although this is also very important), but the required resource, the bearing must withstand in life say a million revolutions, and shoulder strap, say 200)) min is also important, at say 2000 rpm the runout (and arising from this load) due to the radial backlashand bias towers due to the same play at 1 rpm - this is two big differences))
              ..where there is no slippage

              it is theoretically impossible
              1. -1
                26 February 2019 21: 06
                different accuracy requirements.
                in the tower support, the so-called mating surfaces, according to modern requirements, the IT5-12 qualification number, and in the case of a wheel, not mating surfaces.
                The balls there are hardened, their deformation is minimal, therefore, with an uneven load, they can burst already at the first turn of the tower.
    2. +5
      26 February 2019 08: 55
      Quote: Avior
      This ball tower tower is in fact a very large diameter ball bearing that requires the highest precision manufacturing. Therefore, references to the manufacture of the wheel are wrong in the principle of very different parts with large differences in requirements for machining accuracy.

      Sergey, you are mistaken. The accuracy of the manufacture of bearings and wheels of the locomotive is quite comparable. Railway wheels generally require very high accuracy.
      1. BAI
        +5
        26 February 2019 10: 56
        Railway wheels generally require very high precision

        And much higher. Their rotational speed is incomparable with the speed of rotation of the tank turret.
        1. -1
          26 February 2019 13: 32
          not so simple. the load on the balls in the longitudinal direction does not depend much on speed.
          And the accuracy should be very high - the weight of the tower presses on them.
      2. -1
        26 February 2019 13: 31
        Andrey, pay attention to the surfaces on which the balls rest on top and bottom.
        the whole weight of the tower presses on them.
        This is an axial radial, and not just a radial bearing.
        and accuracy in the first place should be high there, and not radial.
        if this accuracy is not maintained, the weight of the tower will always fall on only a part of the balls, and not evenly on all 120 as it should be ..
        and a matter of time when they crumble or crack in such a case. And it does not depend on the speed of rotation.
        By analogy with the railway wheel, this is the processing of the side of the flange of the wheel.
        the accuracy there is clearly not what is required, that in the bearing, the flange on turns the rail obviously experiences friction and is triggered.
        1. 0
          26 February 2019 20: 33
          Quote: Avior
          the weight of the tower will always be only part of the balls, and not evenly on all 120 as it should be ..
          and a matter of time when they crumble or crack in such a case.

          Quote: anzar
          in the required resource, the bearing must withstand in life say a million revolutions, and linear, say 200

          Even if there will be not 120, but only 80 balls in contact, this is enough for the tank’s resource in wartime, and the tower weighs a hundred tons.
          1. -2
            26 February 2019 20: 57
            if there is not the required accuracy, then the balls will burst or crumble and jam the tower at the first turn.
  24. +2
    26 February 2019 01: 16
    And in 1937, in the USSR, at the same factory, two turning-boring machines 152 with a processing diameter of 2000 mm were manufactured. The exact number of machines produced, alas, is unknown, but the decision of the Council of People's Commissars for 1941, the plant allocated 23 million rubles. to bring the annual output to 800 per year: accordingly, it can be assumed that even before this release was significant.

    Question to the author - where does this information come from?

    From the history of the plant. Sedin knows that 1036 machines were made of these machines. Then, after the war, in the 1950s, a model 1541 machine with the largest diameter of the workpiece 1600 mm appeared on its basis, in the sixties 1531 series with a maximum diameter of 1250 mm and a faceplate diameter of 1120 mm appeared, and completed this glorious path of modernization machine type 1512, the author placed a photo of this machine in the article as a "machine of the first production", which was produced since 1970 and became a truly bestseller. It has the largest workpiece diameter of 1250 mm.
    Therefore, it is of interest that the author’s conclusions are based on the fact that the plant began production with heavy machines with a faceplate diameter of 2000 mm?
    The author's article added absolutely nothing to the question of "two machines for the whole country", because the author refutes the reflections of some with his own reflections, not supported by documents.
    Alas, in history the argument “I think so” is not convincing.
    1. +1
      26 February 2019 08: 49
      Unfortunately, I did not find accurate data on 152, there is only this
      In 1935, the government made a decision on the development in the Soviet Union of the production of the entire range of machine-size carousel machines existing abroad. Soviet industry especially required a large number of rotary machines for machining parts with a diameter of up to 3 meters, and they were planned to be manufactured at the Sedin Krasnodar Machine-Tool Plant. In August, the 1937 for the first time in our country, a single-rack turning and rotary lathe 152 model was adopted by the State Commission. In total, the plant has produced 1036 152 machines

      https://stanok-kpo.ru/proizvoditeli/stankozavodsedin.html
      Quote: Decimam
      The author's article added absolutely nothing to the question of "two machines for the whole country", because the author refutes the reflections of some with his own reflections, not supported by documents.

      Thank you :)))) That is, the fact that T-34-85 was made before the Lend-Lease machines could come - this is deliberation. And the words of I. Panov about the possibility of making T-34М at the plant number XXUMX is also speculative. And about the need for 183 TKS for the release of 7 IS-s per month - this is also speculative :))))
      Okay, muses so muzz
      1. 0
        26 February 2019 09: 30
        http://www.k-zts.ru/history.html


        The Sedin Krasnodar Machine-Building Plant was transferred to Glavstankoinstrument. A large number of rotary lathes were required to process parts with a diameter of up to 3 meters, and they were scheduled to be produced at the Sedin Krasnodar Machine-Tool Plant. Due to the lack of experience in creating machines of this type in our country, the design of the first domestic single-column carousel machine with the largest diameter of the workpiece up to 1000 mm was conducted by the Moscow Experimental Research Institute of Metal-Cutting Machines (ENIMS). By the end of 1935, the technical documentation for the model 152 machine was transferred to the Sedin plant, with the need for its refinement and production of a prototype. In August 1937, the model 152 single-column lathe-boring machine made for the first time in our country was adopted by the State Commission with a rating of “fit for use”. In total, 1036 machine tools of the 152 model were produced.


        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        Unfortunately, I did not find accurate data on 152, there is only this
      2. +7
        26 February 2019 10: 20
        Andrey, do not be offended by criticism. After all, I did not deny the production "before the machines came under Lend-Lease" T-34, that would be stupid. I criticized your argumentation, which is not supported by any specific documents, first of all, and incorrect from a technical point of view, secondly.
        We have already argued with you that if the author claims some conclusions in his articles, and not just a description of the process, then he should be very well aware of the issue.
        You took up the topic of metalworking machines in the production of T-34 not owning the issue of these same machines, but making conclusions and conclusions.
        Even today, when machine builders have completely different steels than they did in 1937 and gained experience in design and production, single-column turning and rotary machines have a maximum faceplate diameter of 1600 mm. Very rarely 1800 mm. No longer obtained according to strength conditions. One rack does not provide the necessary structural rigidity.
        In addition, the main characteristic of the turning and rotary machine is not the faceplate diameter, but the dimensions and weight of the workpiece. Typically, the maximum diameter of a part is no more than 200 mm greater than the diameter of the faceplate. That is, when determining the possibility of using the machine, one must proceed not from the diameter of the shoulder strap, but from the size and weight of the tower, which was indicated to you in the comments. The T-34 tower does not fit in the size of 2000 mm in any way, the tower is not symmetrical about the axis of rotation.
        Machines for processing railway wheels are special turning and rotary machines and are unsuitable for processing other parts, especially tank towers. Moreover, in these machines the diameter of the workpiece is smaller than the diameter of the faceplate. For many years, the Krasnodar Machine-Tool Plant named after Sedin produced a special turning and rotary single-column machine 150Sh, designed for machining solid-rolled railway wheels. With a faceplate diameter of 1600 mm, the diameter of the machined wheel is 950-1050 mm.
        So links to the production of locomotive wheels are unfounded.
        In addition, you absolutely do not consider the supply of machinery before the war. After all, if turning and rotary machines began to be produced in 1937, then before that, imported ones had been used. Which, how much?
        That is, behind your logical statement, in general, that the tanks did before Lend-Lease, there was no convincing and qualified argument - what these tanks did and what real opportunities this equipment had. Perhaps today it is difficult to find answers to these questions. But then it’s not worth it to raise the issue, and even more so, to draw global conclusions.
        Here, in short, the essence of my comment.
        1. +4
          26 February 2019 11: 05
          Quote: Decimam
          Andrew, do not be offended by criticism.

          Victor, I never take offense at constructive criticism, and mistakes, yes, they are of course. It is impossible to write without making any mistakes.
          Quote: Decimam
          That is, when determining the possibility of using the machine, it is necessary to proceed not from the diameter of the shoulder strap, but from the size and weight of the tower, which you indicated in the comments. Tower T-34 in size 2000 mm does not fit in any way

          So be it. But it only says that my argument about the machine tools of Soviet manufacture is not correct.
          At the same time, there is a fact - a letter from Panov stating that the machines for processing a large shoulder strap at Plant No. XXUMX were before the war. Again, in the list of equipment (still pre-war) that plants ordered for the production of T-183 and T-34M there are no turning-and-boring lathes. That is, it turns out that the machines did exist, even if they were imported. And in large quantities, since it was on them that the T-34-34 began
          1. -1
            26 February 2019 11: 15
            A letter of the subfloor from GBTU ....

            How much his opinion correlates with reality is unknown. The fact that the designers were perverted in every possible way so as not to increase the epaulettes, and when it was necessary, the machines were ordered in the USA, hints that they didn’t really correspond.
            1. +4
              26 February 2019 12: 23
              Quote: Town Hall
              How his opinion correlates with reality is unknown

              Town Hall, let's be more specific then. You say that without the supply of machines under the Lend-Lease, we would not have coped with our tank program. Then please answer the 3 question:
              1) How many turning and boring machines were supplied under lend-lease?
              2) When were they delivered?
              3) How many of the supplied TCs were transferred to NKTP?
              You see, I have a feeling that you have no answer to any of these questions. And that the whole idea that "T-34-85 are made on lend-lease machines" stems from a single document - a request for imported machine tools from the industry in October 1943. If so, then be impartial - IN THIS CASE version about Lend-Lease does not have any documentary grounds at all, since it was unclear how much TCS eventually arrived at the NKTP or at least was imported into the country.
              If you have such data, I ask you to submit them.
              Agree that in the absence of such information, your theory about the key role of the Lend-machine tools does not have any confirmation at all and is a purely speculative hypothesis. There is no need to refute anything, because of its complete lack of evidence.
              That is, I am ready to constructively discuss on the subject of Lend-Lease and further, but only on the condition that you give at least some evidence of your theory, and since you don’t like general reasoning, then you don’t offer them to me either
              1. 0
                26 February 2019 12: 35
                http://web.archive.org/web/20060503005223/http://www.geocities.com/mark_willey/lend.html


                Section: MACHINES, MACHINE TOOLS & PARTS


                Unfortunately, I am not strong in English technical terminology. I hope someone from comrades will be able to select in more detail from the list of delivered machines those that you call KTS
                1. +1
                  26 February 2019 14: 48
                  Alas, the specified document does not contain such details. It indicates the number of turning (2644), turning and revolving (3073) and another 999 lathes with engines supplied by Britain from 1941 to 1945.
                  Finding out which specific machines were delivered is not an easy question. Here, obviously, an Internet can not do, you need access to the archives.
                  1. 0
                    26 February 2019 15: 03
                    This is the most detailed document that turned out to be found. I also think that until the Soviet archives on this topic are opened, it is unlikely that they will be able to put all the points
                    1. +1
                      26 February 2019 15: 10
                      Why only Soviet. The Americans and the British also considered everything very carefully. It’s just that when covering such questions, you need to soberly assess your strength. If you have access to the archives - this is already a level. If not, do not jump higher than your head with global conclusions. What was interesting Shirokorad in the brief moment of the beginning of his career - he was allowed into the archives. Then they drove him out of there and he turned into a compiler-distributor of bullshit.
              2. +1
                26 February 2019 12: 39
                1) How many turning and boring machines were supplied under lend-lease?
                2) When were they delivered?
                3) How many of the supplied TCs were transferred to NKTP?

                Andrey, your questions are fair, but why didn’t you answer them yourself in the article? After all, this would immediately remove all questions.
              3. 0
                26 February 2019 14: 31
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                1) How many turning and boring machines were supplied under lend-lease?
                2) When were they delivered?
                3) How many of the supplied TCs were transferred to NKTP?




                I asked you these three questions in the discussion of the previous article of the cycle, after your statement that .... those one and a half machine Lendlizovskie did not play any role because the USSR had its bulk .... and promised to answer them in detail with the numbers in this article.



                It turned out not really, to be honest. The source on which you relied, turned out to be frivolous, and you did not check the authenticity before including it in your article. And, since the best defense is an attack, you redirect my questions to me.



                Partially the answers to them are in my link below. I hope someone more savvy in English terms will help to figure it out. Partly, we won’t find answers there either. For example, on delivery times and on English deliveries, which were also not included there.



                My isms are based on the following premises.


                1.SSSR did not produce such machines (I hope after the story with the 152nd machine you will not dispute this).


                2. The only source of income is import. Before the war (after the embargo on the Finnish war) - Germany. During the war, only land lease.


                3. The import of machine tools began at the end of the 41st, because already in March the 42nd there was a staff training in Moscow, and the training was not on plywood mock-ups). And they were obviously teaching not complex files and workbenches, but complex machine tools.


                4. The theory that this kind of machine tools (with a large processing diameter) were not needed until the end of 43, and therefore were not imported before that, does not stand up to criticism. It was a "bottleneck" of the Soviet industry and was completely dependent on imports. Therefore, the first and ordered. On a faceplate of 2000 mm, you can process a part of 1000 mm. On the contrary, no. Not even Soviet leaders could not use this "freebie"). Their own production of such complex machines could only be established in 1949 after the export of documentation and equipment from Germany. there are no miracles in such matters.




                5. About the wheels of the locomotives I hope I have received quite convincing answers from many users.


                6. Stalin's instructions on "finding" the necessary machines (both for ISs and for T-34/85).

                There is not a single word proving that these are pre-war machines. Or Soviet production. Where could they be "found"? There are few options.

                a) gathering dust in warehouses from pre-war times to the 43 year (I hope this even you will not claim)


                b) We were in other factories. Then this meant a disorganization of the work full of all these industries which deprived of key equipment. And it would not have been the State Planning Commission (as indicated in the correspondence), but specific ministries and factories from which they had been selected would have been indicated.


                c) I have the only option from where the State Planning Commission could "find" them - deliveries under Lend Lease. Part was delivered before the end of 43 and was available. The rest was ordered additionally.


                Do you have other options?
                1. +1
                  26 February 2019 17: 43
                  Quote: Town Hall
                  Do you have other options?

                  In fact, before the war itself, a complete inventory of the equipment was made in the NKTP in order to find unused equipment or is very necessary for organizing critical production facilities.
                  And strangely enough, such equipment was found, although perhaps not without consequences for donors.
                2. +2
                  26 February 2019 19: 30
                  Quote: Town Hall
                  It turned out not really, to be honest. The source on which you relied, turned out to be frivolous, and you did not check the authenticity before including it in your article. And, since the best defense is an attack, you redirect my questions to me.

                  Town Hall, you are wrong. Firstly, I checked the source, just wrote to you that "something needs to be clarified." The problem is that I'm just a human being and sometimes I'm wrong :)))) And I didn't find anything sensible at 152, except for the link that I gave above, and there, as you can see, the original text is not given in full.
                  However, naturally, I was extremely interested in something else:
                  1) Did the USSR have the necessary TKS before the war to handle a wide shoulder strap? It turns out that they were, it follows from the words of Panov on the one hand, and the absence of TCS in the application for imported equipment of the plants No. XXUMX and No. XXUMX. Another question that they could not have been of Soviet manufacture, but they did occur.
                  2) How many machines are needed to operate the plant? I have not found any facts disproving 7 TKS with a large faceplate for EC-2. While looking for. Plus, I tried to see how TKS work, it turns out that it is not fast, although, again, I did not find exact data.
                  3) There is evidence that applications for T-34-85 T-1943-machine tools were collected in December XNUMX. This completely eliminates the timely delivery of these machines to these plants in order to be ready for release, and says that we started the release on the existing machine park. Accordingly, it was very important to search for documents of earlier deliveries of TKS under a lend-lease. Searched but not found.
                  Quote: Town Hall
                  The USSR did not produce such machines

                  Actually - not sure, let's say, I agree that 152 is not necessary for us TKS
                  Quote: Town Hall
                  The only source of income is import. Before the war (after the embargo for the Finnish war) - Germany. During the war, only land lease.

                  I do not agree, because in the war a number of equipment we purchased in hard currency.
                  Quote: Town Hall
                  Import of machines began as early as the end of 41. Because already in March, 42 was training personnel in Moscow. Training was not on plywood layouts explicitly). And they clearly did not train files and workbenches, but complex machines.

                  I agree, but there is a nuance - in the training data you cited, there is nothing about TKS. That is, from the fact that we were trained in working on imported machines, it does not follow that we bought large TKS. That is, your information does not refute and does not confirm the latter.
                  Quote: Town Hall
                  The theory that this kind of machine tools (with a large processing diameter) were not needed until the end of 43 and therefore were not imported before that does not stand up to criticism. It was a "bottleneck" of Soviet industry and was completely dependent on imports.

                  It is reasonable, but there is a nuance - we had a huge amount of these bottlenecks, and therefore it is far from a fact that TKS took the first place. The USSR, which lost half of the country, had everything. And more.
                  Quote: Town Hall
                  About the wheels of locomotives received hopefully enough convincing answers from many users.

                  Yes, I received. In fact, I received mostly general information on the topic that a machine for processing a tank shoulder strap requires features that are redundant and not needed for machining wheels. And I am ready to agree with this. It remains only to find out which machines were used at the same time, because the question can be posed differently.
                  We buy expensive equipment that we cannot manufacture ourselves, but at the same time it does not have a dual purpose? Hmm ....
                  Quote: Town Hall
                  Stalin's instructions on "finding" the necessary machines (both for ISs and for T-34/85).
                  There is not a single word proving that these are pre-war machines. Or Soviet production. Where could they be "found"? There are few options.

                  And here it is interesting
                  Quote: Town Hall
                  a) gathering dust in warehouses from pre-war times to the 43 year (I hope this even you will not claim)

                  Town Hall, just do not laugh, but - easily. You know as well as I did that the industry in the pre-war years was trying to develop, so it could well turn out that before the war we received machines that simply did not have time to install in new enterprises. This is one source.
                  Quote: Town Hall
                  Were on other productions. Then it meant the disorganization of the work full of all these industries which were deprived of key equipment

                  I do not agree. We have half the country hit by Hitler, and, of course, it disorganized the industry. But at the same time, an evacuation was well established - the machines were exported en masse. In other words, it turned out that the USSR already does not have enterprises (in the occupied territory), but there are machines from it. And TKS by virtue of the special importance would take out in the first turn
                  Well, something like that, about.
                  1. 0
                    26 February 2019 20: 29
                    .. I mainly obtained general information on the topic that a machine for processing tank epaulettes requires characteristics, excess and not needed for wheel machining. And I ready to agree with this.

                    With what fright? A railway pair needs accuracy an order of magnitude more - a small misalignment of the "small track" (a place on the axis for the camp) and "large" (a wheel) - and a pair (at speed) will trim)) No such accuracy is required for the turret ring - in some structures, it was assembled from arc segments.
                    1. -1
                      26 February 2019 21: 16
                      wrong. in pursuit of the tower mating surfaces, that is, there are surfaces for which higher dimensional accuracy must be maintained relative to each other.
                      in the case of a wheel, but rather, probably, with a pair of wheels, such accuracy is not required, since the rails and close do not have such precision machining, and the wheels still undergo mandatory balancing.
                      Maybe the machine tools for the wheels could have been used for processing with shoulder straps, but this cannot be argued without clear evidence.
                      1. 0
                        26 February 2019 21: 52
                        Quote: Avior
                        Maybe the machine tools for the wheels could have been used for processing with shoulder straps, but this cannot be argued without clear evidence.



                        An indirect answer may be the fact that tank plants based on evacuated steam locomotives were not deployed.
                      2. +3
                        26 February 2019 23: 23
                        Special turning and rotary machines are designed for high-performance machining of the bore hole in the hub and the bandage of the wheels of the wagons and towing vehicles using special technological equipment. You can’t insert a tower there.
                      3. -1
                        26 February 2019 23: 25
                        this is logical, there are no wheels with a diameter of one and a half to two meters on the railway.
                      4. +1
                        26 February 2019 23: 36
                        Just happen. The diameter of the driving wheels for the PD steam engine is 1350 mm, for the IS steam locomotive - 1700 mm. The question is that the design is made strictly for the operations that are needed to process the railway wheel. Therefore, for example, the KS 1114 machine can process wheels up to 1340 mm, but the workpiece height is not more than 300 mm. This is clearly visible in the photo.
                  2. 0
                    26 February 2019 21: 58
                    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                    so it could very well turn out that before the war they received machines that they simply did not manage to install at new enterprises.



                    Documents say that before the war in tank factories, there was a wild shortage of everything and everything about machine tools. Plus they did not manage to evacuate much and were blown up / abandoned. It is more than doubtful that someone kept this important equipment unused.
                    1. 0
                      27 February 2019 00: 08
                      Quote: Town Hall
                      Documents say that before the war in tank factories, there is a wild lack of everything and everything in the part of the machine tools.

                      Nevertheless, TKS abroad under the planned release of 1941 g did not order
                      1. 0
                        27 February 2019 10: 49
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Quote: Town Hall
                        Documents say that before the war in tank factories, there is a wild lack of everything and everything in the part of the machine tools.

                        Nevertheless, TKS abroad under the planned release of 1941 g did not order




                        Stankoimport should supply 1940 metal-cutting machines to the STZ in 80. At 20 / XI, 35 machines were confirmed (placed for import) with the following delivery rates:

                        12 machines - in 1940

                        2 machines - in the first quarter of 1941

                        10 machines - in 2-3 quarters of 1941

                        11 machines - in 1942

                        The 1941 program will require 36 rotary machines. Machine shop No. 2, taking into account the relocated from other workshops, has only 16 rotary machines. Rotary machines were ordered to import in the amount of 30 pieces, but their delivery time (end of 1941) does not ensure the implementation of the program ”[84].


                        Summary of the state of preparation of the means of production according to T-34 of November 20, 1940, TsAMO RF, f. 38, op. 11355, d.30, l. 162–164.


                        Ulanov
                      2. 0
                        27 February 2019 11: 06
                        Ibid:

                        In connection with the recalculation of the project for 2-shift operation of the plant, the need for purchased equipment increased from 282 to 376 machines. Received orders for 144 machines. Arrived at the factory 27 machines. Of the required 46 turning and rotary machines, not a single one was received. Defective casting reaches 70%. The steel mill is still operating unsatisfactorily.
                      3. 0
                        28 February 2019 07: 22
                        Quote: Town Hall
                        Ulanov

                        Right. And in the import order, TCS do not appear, so they were going to take them somewhere at home
                      4. 0
                        28 February 2019 08: 04
                        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                        Quote: Town Hall
                        Ulanov

                        Right. And in the import order, TCS do not appear, so they were going to take them somewhere at home




                        Carousel ordered for import in the amount of 30 pieces, but their delivery time (end of 1941) does not ensure the implementation of the program ”[84].


                        Summary of the state of preparation of the means of production according to T-34 of November 20, 1940, TsAMO RF, f. 38, op. 11355, d.30, l. 162–164.
      3. +1
        26 February 2019 12: 13
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        That is, the fact that the T-34-85 was made before the Lend-Lease machines could arrive is a reflection. And the words of I. Panov about the possibility of making the T-34M at factory No. 183 are also speculative.

        I’ll stay a bit canon advocate. smile
        The above two statements relate to different times - during the war and before the war.
        Before the war, factory No. 183 could possibly produce tanks with a shoulder strap of more than 1500 mm. That's just the question - could actually or could after retrofitting? And then often the phrase about "the possibility of production" is supplemented with the following phrase "subject to the equipment of production" and then a list of machines follows.
        There, the same STZ in 1940 was considered capable of producing the T-34. And how many machines did you have to purchase for this?
        As for the production of T-34-85 before the arrival of LL machine tools, according to the canonical version, it is worth thanking the Sormovites for this. After the evacuation of 1941, the situation with the machines was sharply complicated. It was then that there was only one plant left for the entire NKTP, capable of processing the tower shoulder strap of more than 1500 mm - and he was engaged exclusively in the heavy tank program. But in 1943, the Sormovites assembled and set up the equipment that they got partially incomplete after the evacuation (that is, there was equipment before the evacuation). And upon completion of the setup, they were able to start production of the T-34-85 - being the only plant capable of such. The remaining plants were waiting for equipment.
        1. 0
          26 February 2019 12: 34
          [/ quote] That's just the question - could actually or could after retrofitting equipment? [quote]

          Could actually, because the design of the T-34M tower made it possible to dispense with machines with a diameter of p / w, the same as for the T-34-76 towers.
  25. -5
    26 February 2019 06: 03
    Along the way, let's start analyzing this "opus" in the best traditions of those who like to run around the streets with a placard "executioners". And so the fruits of the hard efforts of this representative of the Russian education system takes the bull by the horns literally in the very first paragraph:
    “Thus, we see a very strange, at first glance, picture - an openly undeveloped tank is first put into service and then put into production. How reasonable was such a decision? Based on the realities we are accustomed to, of course not at all.

    But in those years ... "

    ***
    That is, in our time we are winning the war against the united West with one left, and we make tanks that have no analogues in the world, moreover, in the amount strictly necessary for needs, and immediately. So? I would still like to understand what this person did in our time in order to compare with the time about which he says "Based on the realities we are accustomed to - of course not at all." about the decisions of the commander-in-chief of the Great Patriotic War. That is, he finds himself from somewhere - that is, the realities from which he can judge the realities of that time. I would like to know where he got such realities from. Maybe he is an alien who lives simultaneously in 1940 and in ours, 2019, at the same time, and his personal time machine helps him with comparisons of realities, only not Makarevich, but the one in which you press the button, and at that time ... which I typed on the control panel.
    How else to explain such antics of a man who, in general, with the time of Joseph Vissarionovich Stalin has no more in common than a mutt living in the forest has in common with the work of the composer.
    No need to worry, such a debut will bring tremendous discoveries in development, followed by the final apotheosis.
    Without going into details, the only thing I want to find out is that such people, with an abundance of Western values, are doing in the Russian press.
    1. +1
      26 February 2019 08: 42
      Good morning, dear colleague!

      fundamentally decided for myself not to comment on this cycle


      but here I will answer not with commentary, but with a small statement of fact:

      the frankly unfinished tank is first taken into service, and then launched into production. How reasonable was such a decision? Proceeding from the realities familiar to us - of course, no matter how much


      this position was actively discussed at that time, the problem is that only BT-7 (not BT-7M) and T-28 were considered to be brought up at that time - that’s why they hinted to such guys that, to put it mildly, they are categorically wrong

      The author also writes after:
      But in those years ... The first thing I would like to draw attention to is that the Second World War was in full swing in Europe.

      I don't like this "provocation".

      I apologize, but we’re sorry and that’s why hi
    2. +2
      26 February 2019 12: 50
      Quote: Miron
      That is, in our time we win the war against the united west with one left, and we make tanks that have no analogues in the world, and in quantities strictly necessary for needs, and immediately. So?

      That is, at present, they are still trying to remove the main design flaws of the technology before the start of its mass production. And not like plant number 183 - "from the 1001st car" (and these are only promises - in fact, the number of the car was constantly shifting). Moreover, these are not some trifles like "change the color of the tank paint", but "eliminate the burning of brake bands", "alter the oil cooler", "ensure the tightness of all hatches of the hull and turret", etc.
      It is weak to mass-produce a tank with the following written in the official test report:
      The T-34 tank presented for testing does not meet modern requirements for this class of tanks the following reasons:
      a)Tank firepower cannot be fully utilized due to the unsuitability of surveillance devices, defects in the installation of weapons and optics, the tightness of the fighting compartment and the inconvenience of using the combat unit.
      b) With a sufficient margin of engine power and maximum speed, the dynamic characteristics of the tank are poorly selected, which reduces speed and permeability of the tank.
      at)Tactical use of the tank in isolation from the repair bases is impossible, due to the unreliability of the main components - the main clutch and chassis.
      d) The range and reliability of communication obtained during testing for a tank of this class is insufficient, due to both the characteristics of the walkie-talkie 71 TK-3 and the low quality of its installation in the T-34 tank.

      Quote: Miron
      Without going into details, the only thing I want to find out is that such people, with an abundance of Western values, are doing in the Russian press.

      It looks like you have a time machine. At least, the denunciation in the worst traditions of the creative intelligentsia of the USSR turned out to be a sight for you. smile
  26. +2
    26 February 2019 08: 42
    Quote: Cherry Nine

    The story of Gavril was concluded in seventy-two lines. At the end of the poem, the letter-bearer Gavril, struck down by a fascist bullet, nevertheless delivers a letter to the address.
    “Where did the thing happen?” - asked Lyapis.
    The question was legal. There are no fascists in the USSR, and Gavril and members of the communications workers union are not abroad.
    -- What's the matter? - said Lyapis. - The matter is happening, of course, with us, and the fascist is dressed up.

    The novel is of the 27th year, and the USSR is already struggling with fascism, as it can. Accordingly, when the NSDAP came to power in Germany (and even more so when they quarreled with it), it was too late to rebuild. Yes, and write about the nationalsocialists - only confuse the Soviet people. You never know what unnecessary thoughts will come to mind due to an accidental coincidence of names.

    In general, the coincidence was by no means accidental. Very many attribute Hitler's National Socialists to the left rather than the right. Which is quite logical for the National Socialist Workers Party. Well, yes, such were the racist socialists. That, as it were, emphasizes their differences from the clearly right-wing fascists. The internationalist left ideology that simply won the war was uncomfortable due to such a neighborhood. And in our time, leftists of all stripes naturally do not want to be born with the Nazis, pushing them to the right.
    1. -1
      26 February 2019 20: 28
      That as if emphasizes their differences from the unambiguously right-wing fascists

      Point blank I don’t understand what difference is left they right? Why are you so concerned about this issue? The article is not about that at all. Write an article about National Socialism and there prove that it and fascism are two different things and citizens who are interested in the issue will criticize you. Or maybe they’ll praise it.
      Personally, I deeply do not care whether it is appropriate to call Hitler a fascist. I have called, I will name and will name, even if you can scientifically prove otherwise. For there is a well-established figure of speech - "German fascist invaders". If you personally do not like it, go to the profile topic and prove there, and here is a discussion of tanks, not varieties of antique feces.
    2. +1
      26 February 2019 23: 57
      Quote: Demagogue
      In general, the coincidence was by no means accidental.

      It was accidental that the Bolshevik party used socialist rhetoric. The Communist Party (b) had little relation to socialism, and especially under Comrade Stalin. Unlike the NSDAP.
      Quote: MooH
      Personally, it makes no difference to me whether it is appropriate to call Hitler a fascist

      It is on people like you that the current propagandists work. You basically do not understand the essence of the matter.
      1. Hitler’s regime was indeed largely fascist.
      2. As regards fascism, neither to Hitler, nor to Franco or Salazar, there were no complaints. Neither the USSR nor the Allies. Claims were for what he did besides fascism.
      1. +1
        27 February 2019 10: 00
        In the USSR, socialism was a religion. And the fascists in the framework of this religion played the role of the devil. Actually, Soviet propaganda drove these postulates into their heads so thoroughly that they still haven’t let go of their comrades. In Germany, religion was its own, the Third Reich, Nordicism, the race of lords, etc.

        From the point of view of government, the difference was very large. The USSR was a classic eastern despotism, and Germany a democracy, but in the ancient sense. The power as in ancient Athens was in the group of the wealthiest citizens. Farbenindustrii, Siemens and on the list. They made Hitler an archon. Indeed, this regime had much more social achievements than Stalin did in the USSR. Demos was pleased.
        1. +1
          27 February 2019 10: 40
          Quote: Demagogue
          In the USSR, socialism was a religion.

          In the USSR, in general, everything is quite complicated. In relation to Comrade Stalin, this is a stubborn militarized totalitarianism with leftist rhetoric. Socialism is quite difficult to find there, if we consider the social state as the first sign of socialism. With Khrushchev, something began to be done in this direction, although not so much. This was the beginning of the end of the USSR - if riveting the tanks flush with the bourgeois still succeeded, then baking rolls - absolutely not.
          Quote: Demagogue
          And the fascists in the framework of this religion played the role of the devil.

          There is a wild vinaigrette. Fascism as the highest manifestation of imperialism and all that jazz. Soviet propaganda - it is very eclectic.
          Quote: Demagogue
          in ancient Athens was the group of the wealthiest citizens. Farbenindustri, Siemens and Listed

          You retell the same Soviet nonsense. The Americans liberated Yarmar Schacht and Fritz Thyssen from Dachau in the 45th.
          Tales about the fact that some circles there kindled something there are another Soviet lie. Money does not like war. War never does not bring money on the scale of the national economy.
          Quote: Demagogue
          Demos was pleased.

          Yeah. Hitler was a brilliant populist. Stalin never relied on the shirnarmasses; he was a pure apparatchik, despite the cult of personality.
          1. 0
            27 February 2019 11: 12
            1. German capital just released Hitler's genie from the bottle, I did not write that they wanted war. No one sane in Germany wanted a war. They wanted to shake off Versailles, make money on the construction of the sun. I am also convinced that Hitler's anti-Semitism had another material basis - the elimination of competitors of national capital.
            2. The USSR, in my opinion, is the country of the victorious accountants (like lawyers in the USA), and Stalin is a typical accountant that no one would need if you did not turn off the NEP and start militarization. And modern Russia, by the way, is still the same country of accountants.
            1. 0
              27 February 2019 11: 49
              Quote: Demagogue
              German capital just let gin Hitler out of the bottle,

              Yeah. Capital released Hitler, or Hitler used protectionist rhetoric to cast his eyes to capital.
              Quote: Demagogue
              elimination of competitors of national capital.

              Have I already talked about Thyssen with Mine? You shouldn’t think that German aces are simpletons who didn’t understand what to inflict on enemies working people Aryan race - the main thing is to start, and then it will go.
              Quote: Demagogue
              Stalin is a typical accountant

              Apparently, you accountants greatly offended you as a child.
              Quote: Demagogue
              modern Russia, by the way, is still the same country of accountants.

              He wrote on another occasion that the modern Russian multi-tower state is a tower of dead garbage (if without a mat) and a tower of dead accounting people. So, the key word - ofigevshih.
              By the way, suddenly, fascism can be understood as a concept of a frenzied state.
              1. 0
                27 February 2019 13: 27
                1. As for Mine, he was friendly with Himmler and calmly accepted all anti-Semitic campaigns. Only in 41 for other reasons he quarreled with the Fuhrer. Hitler was supported by old money even before the coup, and many of them probably did not like the competitors of the Jews. They were not deterred by his frank rhetoric. My communication, even with modern Bavarians, for example, suggests that they still do not have a weak crystal night to arrange, just give free rein. Although I think German money could not have imagined that the case would end with Mathausen, etc. Maximum suitcase, train station, Paris, well, labor camp. There, even the chief of general staff realized that Hitler was preparing a war only in 1938. People tend to make mistakes.

                2. I have not met accountants in my childhood. By an accountant I mean a person who could only issue rifles to the proletariat by signature, and in no way could he organize the coup like Trotsky himself. There is no place for this person outside the bureaucratic machine.

                3. About Russia right. No objections. Only not enraged state, but excessively overgrown. The state always fills all the free space, and our population, which decided to exist in the form of mold, leaves a lot of room for the fantasies of the state.
                1. 0
                  27 February 2019 16: 30
                  According to paragraph 1, one should not perceive what is happening in Germany at that time solely from the point of view of anti-Semitism. Hitler’s regime killed a lot of people, not only because of their Jewry.
                  Quote: Demagogue
                  Maximum suitcase, train station, Paris, well, labor camp.

                  A bit of a strange career for the chairman of the Central Bank.
                  Quote: Demagogue
                  There is no place for this person outside the bureaucratic machine.

                  The state is the bureaucratic machine. Comrade Bronstein was convinced of this personally.
                  Quote: Demagogue
                  Only not enraged state, but excessively overgrown.

                  If we perceive the bureaucratic apparatus as a ball in which internal pressure is limited by external pressure, then yes. But still a little more complicated.
                  Tutto nello Stato, niente al di fuori dello Stato, nulla contro lo Stato

                  The state can be very large. in terms of, for example, a share in GDP or the number of people employed, but not infuriated. USSR times of insanity, so as not to go far. Fascism, in my opinion, is largely a stylistic term. It implies not only the growth of the state, but also a sharp, violent struggle of the state with everything that the state is not.
                  Quote: Demagogue
                  The state always fills all the free space,

                  No. This bureaucratic structure fills all the free space until it encounters resistance. The state is not only bureaucracy, officials, but also politicians who (in theory) seek to transform the country into their vision of the future. Since no vision of the future includes a total bureaucracy, but it is also impossible without it, politicians and officials balance each other.
                  Similarly. In any company there are interests of management, and there are interests of owners. They are balanced. Companies without owners (most state-owned companies) are prone to runaway growth despite constant reductions and optimizations. Reduced 100 locksmiths in Saratov - added the Department of Business Intelligence in Moscow. And the business modeling department. And the macroeconomic forecasting department.

                  A balanced state is not about Russia, of course. Here, politicians and officials are one and the same.
                  1. 0
                    27 February 2019 17: 28
                    1. Just before 1939, not so many people were killed, 50 thousand in camps. Communists, old comrades like Ram, a pinch of Jews. Yes, 300 thousand Jews emigrated, but nothing more. I raised the question to the fact that you completely denied the role of German capital in the Jewish question. I believe that there is a banal raiding.

                    About Paris, I wrote in relation to the Jews.

                    2. In Russia, the situation in my opinion is as follows. Peter 1 managed to make a breakthrough by joining the Baltic states with the German population. The Germans began to administer the empire. In fact, the rest of Russia was annexed to the Baltic states and hence Bironism, etc. In 1917, the Germans fled, as did part of the cultural urban population as a whole. A significant part of the urban population has died out. And we got the situation of Haiti after the revolt of the slaves. Only a little better. Yesterday's slaves instantly isolated from their midst supervisors and do not want to evolve further. And the Germans have nowhere else to get. In a more complex society with such human resources can not get together. There is only to wait.
  27. +1
    26 February 2019 09: 16
    I must say that the A-41 was quickly abandoned, he never left the drawings, did not go beyond the “paper” design stage

    This, KMK, was the main mistake, the refusal to work on small modernization in favor of a large one. It is not a fact that the T-34 "small modernization" would have made it to the troops before 22.06.41, but, at least, by the time of the battle of Moscow, they could have started production. Or at least to introduce developments on the manufactured model.
    Regarding the machine park for the production of tanks with 1600 mm shoulder straps. - theoretically, yes, the Kharkov plant had the technical capability and the appropriate machines, but it also had a chronically unfulfilled plan for the production of T-34. As I understand it, the management did not want to take responsibility for a possible failure of the plan (especially since production problems were already above the roof - see "Chronicles of the first thirty-fours" in TVV).
    1. +1
      26 February 2019 12: 52
      Quote: doktorkurgan
      This, KVM, was the main mistake, the refusal of work on small modernization in favor of a large

      So no one expected a war in 1941. And the list of shortcomings on the T-34 (and, by the way, on the short-range) was so large that it was easier to design bombs to make new tanks - for which all the forces were thrown (since time is). All the same, in 1942 the T-34 and KV were to be discontinued - why then upgrade them?
      1. +2
        26 February 2019 15: 38
        So no one expected a war in 1941.

        After the fall of France? No options. Moreover, there is information that they were seriously preparing for a possible attack in the month of May - and because of the failed May attack, they relaxed in June.
        And the list of shortcomings on the T-34 (and, by the way, on the short-range) was so large that it was easier to design bombs to make new tanks - for which all the forces were thrown (since there is time).

        Well, how can I say ... T-34-85 and KV-85 kakbe hint that a gradual improvement can also achieve a lot. As regards the design of new tanks - the desa launched by the Germans in their promising developments played a role - therefore, our military also wanted more protected and more powerful armed tanks.
        In general, KVM, there were enough nuances.
        1. 0
          26 February 2019 19: 28
          Quote: doktorkurgan
          After the fall of France? No options.

          Still with what options. Our intelligence stubbornly sent to the Report Center that the Reich would not wage war on two fronts - and there was no reason to wait until the British question was resolved.
          Quote: doktorkurgan
          Well, how can I say ... T-34-85 and KV-85 kakbe hint that a gradual improvement can also achieve a lot.

          Can. If you put at the forefront the task of not reducing serial production or providing a minimum transition time for the release of a new model. In this case, yes, KB will have to upgrade the tank already in the series.
          But the problem is that this is typical of wartime - when it’s not fat, there would be at least some tanks. And by the standards of peacetime, both the T-34 and the KV were so old by 1941 that they could not be saved by any modernization — new tanks were needed. Moreover, intelligence regularly reports on serial German TV, T-VI and T-VII tanks with armor of 60-80 mm (or more) and guns up to 105 mm.
          Quote: doktorkurgan
          As regards the design of new tanks - the desa launched by the Germans in their promising developments played a role - therefore, our military also wanted more protected and more powerful armed tanks.

          And there was little disinformation - the TK for the "Tiger" was finally approved on May 26, 1941, at the same time 103 tanks were ordered from Porsche and Henschel (3 experimental and 100 of the first series). And the same VK3001 (H) was already in the hardware.
      2. 0
        26 February 2019 23: 46
        Quote: Alexey RA
        So no one expected a war in 1941. And the list of shortcomings on the T-34 (and, by the way, on the short-range) was so large that it was easier to design bombs to make new tanks - for which all the forces were thrown (since time is). All the same, in 1942 the T-34 and KV were to be discontinued - why then upgrade them?

        If the customer did not understand that list of disadvantages new tanks will be no less big - who is his doctor?
        1. 0
          27 February 2019 11: 38
          Quote: Cherry Nine
          If the customer did not understand that the list of shortcomings of the new tanks would be no less large - who is the doctor for him?

          The customer hoped that at least there would be no known flaws in these tanks.
          Moreover, a heavy tank weighing 46-49 tons with a chassis and transmission, originally designed for 40 tons, can not be fixed with any small upgrades (without reducing combat characteristics). smile
          1. 0
            27 February 2019 12: 29
            Quote: Alexey RA
            The customer hoped that at least there would be no known flaws in these tanks.

            T-54, T-10.
            There were no flaws. But how long did it take to get a normal combat vehicle out of them? Or did a customer fall into the Soviet Union from heaven? Did you know anything about the launch of anything in the series?
      3. +2
        27 February 2019 09: 27
        Quote: Alexey RA
        All the same, in 1942 the T-34 and KV were to be discontinued

        T34 should have been replaced in September 1941 under the large modernization program T34T / M.
        As for HF, one could not be so sure, because changers (KV3 and others) so far did not have the ability to move on roads, bridges and railways due to the large mass, engines were also available only in the project.
  28. 0
    26 February 2019 12: 19
    thanks for the detective with carousels! wink
  29. 0
    26 February 2019 12: 38
    Yuri Pashilok - in some detail disassembled the design and the beginning of the development of the T-34M.
    https://warspot.ru/14044-predvoennaya-perspektiva
    the appearance of the future T-34M by May 1941 has changed significantly. The body, tower, engine, transmission, chassis were altered. Instead of a tank, which was supposed to be radically different from the serial T-34, we got a kind of hybrid in which the serial car was clearly visible - especially this related to the engine-transmission compartment. Such significant metamorphoses turned out to be related to the fact that the time for the production of experimental tanks was approaching, and the B-5 in conjunction with the 8-speed gearbox was either on paper or in the form of prototypes of the engine, which were tested with a lot of problems. In addition, a more “down to earth” modernization of the T-34 had a greater chance of launching in a series. This became even more relevant after the signing of the order for the NKSM No. 193s of May 10, 1941 “On the production of T-34 tanks in 1941”.
    The case of the T-34M became more like the serial T-34, and its tower developed in a completely different way. By May 1941, the epaulet diameter returned to the mark of 1600 mm, but the tower itself became more like not the serial, but the design of the T-44 heavy tank, which will be discussed below. The commander's place shifted to the left, which allowed to optimize the placement of the calculation of the tower. The roof of the tower received bevels, also, by analogy with the T-44, a ventilation hatch appeared to the right of the commander’s turret, and it’s rather large. The number of tower hatches was reduced to two - the loader and the hatch in the commander's cupola. The commander’s turret had 5 periscopic observation devices placed so that when they were hit, holes would not appear through which bullets or fragments could pass. With some modifications, the weapons installation developed in February 1941 with a large fixed reservation was preserved. The tower case was planned to be made either welded or cast, in addition, the issue of stamped construction was worked out.
    A longitudinal section of the T-34M, as it was planned in the series, in May 1941.
  30. +2
    26 February 2019 13: 34
    Note to the author.
    Before writing the article, it was necessary to study the design of the T-34, it is quite simple. There are enough books and articles published on T-34, although there is a gap on T-34-85.
    Note to the article.
    T-34 85 with shoulder strap 1420 plant 183 not mass-produced. Yes, and it looks like factory 112 immediately began production with a shoulder strap of 1600. In any case, documentary evidence of the manufacture of towers with a shoulder strap of 1420 and an 85 mm gun was not found, documentary evidence is the CD, reports of the VP. Perhaps the first cars in the tower had two people, this is judged by a change in the design of the roof of the tower, but this is my guess. Orders and orders are good, but as a rule, the implementation differs from the plan. Baryatinsky did not mean rotary lathes, but gear-cutting or gear-cutting machines for cutting teeth in pursuit of the tower spinning, these machines are more complex than turning.
    The inner diameter of the lower part of the T-34-85 tower for installing the support ring of the shoulder strap 1742 +2 mm, respectively, the casting must be bored. Given the size of the tower, as it spins around its axis the faceplate should be 2800-3000 mm.
    For 76mm cannon towers, dash numbers 182 (as the pie is called) and 474 (nut) the inner diameter of the lower part of the tower for installing the support ring of the epaulet 1616 + 10-2mm.
    More details on the design can be seen with me
    http://drawingstanks.blogspot.com/2014/02/t-34.html
    From Factory Report 112
    https://drawingstanks.blogspot.com/2014/03/112.html
    1. 0
      26 February 2019 14: 14
      T-34-85 with guns D-5T were double.

    2. 0
      26 February 2019 14: 18
      More precisely, the majority with the D-5T were 2-seater but not all.
      On this topic at Pashilok
      https://yuripasholok.livejournal.com/2843173.html
      1. +1
        26 February 2019 15: 39
        At 112 plants there were 3 types of towers under D-5. These are the first towers made according to the design documentation of the plant 183 in it, an external sign is a tower that is shifted forward. If we compare the placement of the hatches and the lump of the tower with the nut relative to the axis of rotation, this is the same. This is probably done because until the last moment, the issue of shoulder straps was not resolved. Then the lump tower drove back for the commander. Then they switched to S-53. Then, since the S-53 was not enough, they made the universal tower S-53 –D-5. These towers are distinguished by a wide mask. Another feature of the towers of 112 plants is a long roof, because there were technological difficulties with casting the front of the tower. Yes, Yura Poshalkok didn’t figure it out to the end.
        1. 0
          26 February 2019 15: 43
          In a group photo, a car with a universal tower.
          [Center]

        2. 0
          26 February 2019 16: 05
          I wonder what the crew of three in the tower had with the D-5T.
          Previously, I always believed that the T-34-85 with the D-5T were two-seater, the model was glued to the T-34 from Dmitry Donskoy.
          Our interesting story - like you already know everything, but a new fact comes out.
  31. +1
    26 February 2019 16: 26
    I welcome the exposure of yet another "easel" theory about the "irreplaceability" of lend-lease.
    There have been countless numbers of them in recent years. Either steam engines, or aviation gasoline, explosives, chocolate, tobacco, toothpaste, perfumes Christian Dior and Scotland whiskey.
    For example, there may be a bit and such a theory that without the German decommissioning of Naturvisenschaft, without the Italian dissident Fermi and without the Belgian uranium, the United States could not have made an atomic bomb.
    Back to the Soviet tanks. Thousands of them have been riveted with shoulder straps much more than 1000 mm since the thirties. Sea towers were riveted - with 100 mm, 130 mm, 152 mm, 180 mm guns, one, two and three equipment, and so on and so forth.
    Well, let’s say the USSR doesn’t have these machines and it just cannot make them (which is almost impossible), the USA doesn’t sell machines and they don’t sell anything at all to the USSR - strict neutrality was declared. Then you can agree with Japan - to sell its oil and get the machines. Very mutually beneficial cooperation with Japan can be established. But Japan does not want to trade with the USSR - then in place of the 85 mm gun in the tank’s tower there will be a 76 mm gun. Or maybe it’s better to make more SU-85.
    It didn’t and couldn’t beat anything that was obtained by lend-lease, which could not be beaten or produced on its own or replaced with something else.
    1. +2
      26 February 2019 17: 19
      With the T-34-85 it is necessary to understand. There are drawings of masks of different widths, i.e. towers, respectively, are also different. I have an assumption that on towers with D-5 the distance from the axis of the gun pins to the axis of rotation of the tower is greater than that of the C-53. Those. towers 112 of the plant should structurally differ. While the drawings of the towers 112 factory did not see, maybe there are still. D-5 and S-53 differed in sights, in S-53 the TSh sight was not set periscopic. The crew is determined by the state, at the time of manufacture of the T-34-85 with the D-5, the order could not be corrected, and therefore there are 4 people in the photo. An order to clarify the state came across to me somewhere; the staff of motorized rifle brigades was sent to 5 crew members. The army generally has order, even during the war. The confusion with the installation of the S-53 in the turret with the shoulder strap of 1420 arose because of the GKO decree No. 4873 on adopting the S-53 gun and arming its T-34 instead of the F-34 with the shoulder strap of 1420. But this did not grow together.
      And according to Lend-Lease, it was poorly interchangeable. Aluminum, gunpowder, TNT, aviation gasoline, armor plate up to 20 mm, etc. This is the topic of a separate objective study.
    2. +2
      26 February 2019 20: 00
      Quote: Kostadinov
      Back to the Soviet tanks. Thousands of them have been riveted with shoulder straps much more than 1000 mm and since the thirties.

      In fact, it was about the diameter of the shoulder strap over 1500 mm. How many such tanks did the Soviet Socialist Republic produce and at which plants?
      Quote: Kostadinov
      Sea towers were riveted - with 100 mm, 130 mm, 152 mm, 180 mm guns, one, two and three equipment, and so on and so forth.

      Yeah ... and they were made in Leningrad - at the LMZ. It was only in September 1941 that a small problem arose with the production of something in Leningrad.
      Also towers were made by Nikolaev Shipbuilding Plant No. 198. There problems began even earlier.
      And factory No. 402, to which tower production was transferred in 1942, was only half built by the beginning of the war. Moreover, the tower workshop remained just in the unfinished half.
      In Molotovsk, at factory No. 402, the construction of the tower workshop did not begin before the war, and the carousel ordered for it remained in Germany.
      © Vasilyev / Morin
      Quote: Kostadinov
      Well, let’s say the USSR doesn’t have these machines and it cannot produce them in any way (which is almost implausible),

      See the list of purchases of machine tools for the production of tanks at STZ. For example, carousels:
      The 1941 program will require 36 rotary machines. Machine shop No. 2, taking into account relocated from other workshops, has only 16 rotary machines. The rotary machines were ordered to import in the amount of 30 pieces, but their delivery time (end of 1941) does not ensure the implementation of the program

      In general, of the 253 machines ordered by STZ as necessary for the production of T-34, 107 were imported.
      Quote: Kostadinov
      Then you can agree with Japan - to sell its oil and get the machines.

      Yeah ... the smart plan is to give the main enemy in the Far East the very resource whose lack kept it from war with the USSR. The army went south only because Japan had enough fuel resources for the war in only one direction, and new fuel could be captured only in the south.
      Quote: Kostadinov
      It didn’t and couldn’t beat anything that was obtained by lend-lease, which could not be beaten or produced on its own or replaced with something else.

      Seed grain. Tungsten. Copper. High octane and additives. Gunpowder and components for its production.
      No Chilean copper - forget about the massive transition to the 85 mm caliber. Because the sleeve of an 85-mm round weighs three times the sleeve of a 76,2-mm round (divisor) - and requires as much more copper.
      Sleeve 76mm guns arr. 1902/1930 (as well as subsequent divisions of this caliber) weighed 830-850 grams.
      The 85mm anti-aircraft gun barrel weighed 2,85-2,92kg.

      But not a secret. that all pre-war attempts to raise the caliber of divisional guns (95-mm, 85-mm) were killed precisely by the lack of copper for the production of mobile stock of shots. And at the shotgun loading of the KK guns, the legs also grow from copper.
      Mednogorsk copper mines began to work normally only after the war.
      The copper deposits of Mongolia (Erdenet) were developed only after the war.
      It was bad with polymetallic ores.
      Estimate yourself how much copper, tin, zinc, and lead will be consumed by you for mass production of divisional artillery cartridges of caliber 85mm or even worse 95mm
      Many, many, many more than in reality.
      In reality, they tried to save even on rifle and pistol sleeves - steel copper sleeves appeared for a reason.

      Replace brass with steel? The ancestors tried it:
      In 1940, it was supposed to produce 5,7 million pieces of steel (iron) sleeves of 76 mm caliber, there were big problems with high-quality heat treatment of such sleeves, so it was completely removed from the process.
      The result - a massive reject - 0,963 million pieces of shells out of 1,117 million steel (iron) shells made in 1940!
      Steel (iron) sleeves for howitzers of caliber 122 and 152mm were not mastered in 1939-1940.
      There were no approved drawings of such cartridges, nor equipment for their production.
      The production of 122 mm cannon steel (iron) shells was disrupted, due to the supply of completely worthless metal.

      Sleeves need special steel. We need machines - for example, presses with an effort of 2500 tons.
  32. 0
    26 February 2019 18: 35
    Friends! So what's the headline ?: "Why did the T-34 lose to the PzKpfw III, but beat the Tigers and Panthers?"". I myself am a military man and on June 22, 41, very interesting questions arise in me, as in almost all Soviet people. But, today we know a hundred times more than, say, in the 1980s. And definitely, now, we can say that our Soviet T-34 and KV-1/2 DID NOT BEAT the Wehrmacht and their T-3 and T-4! I am convinced of this! But the "loading" of these tanks in the troops of the Red Army began, in reality, only in January 1941 !!!!! 1. Mastering new tanks is 1000 ????; 2. Has anyone heard of military coordination in units and units of tank forces, their interaction with other branches of the military .....? Tank corps in the Red Army began to form for a moment from the end of June 1940 !!!!! And, as I wrote above, industrial deliveries in bulk T-34 and KV went only from January 1941! .... And such ???? not 10 pieces. They fought with what they had and the way they knew how! Eternal Glory to the soldiers of the Red Army, Navy, border guards and everyone who defended Our Country from Nazism!
    So, the head of the BTS PribVO was right: "The tank forces of the Red Army in June, July 1941 acted as a real steel shield of the Red Army in border battles!"
    I have the honor!
    1. +2
      26 February 2019 20: 14
      Quote: Pyotr Ivanov
      1. The development of new tanks is 1000 ????;

      What kind of development of new tanks can we talk about if there were 5 KVs and 67 T-37s of the "second category" in 34 border districts of the USSR - that is, vehicles used by the troops of the combat training park. And the T-34 manuals were planned for the second half of 1941.
      Quote: Pyotr Ivanov
      2. Has anyone heard of combat coordination in units and units of tank troops, their interaction with other branches of the army .....?

      The preparation of the tank company in defensive and offensive combat was supposed to be completed only by May – June 1941, and the coordination of the regiment, division, and corps was planned for a later date.

      The timing of co-ordination of the MK can be judged by the fact that the first MK exercises as a whole were planned for September 1941. Moreover, the purpose of these exercises was to understand how the mechanized corps designed on paper works in practice in defense, on the offensive and on the march. And is it not necessary to make changes to the state - because the same Khatskilevich complained in December 1940 that even in theory his MK did not fit into the breakthrough, and even paralyzed the army rear with his lorries and tractors.
      Oh yes, and the cherry on the cake:
      By your order for No. 140385ss dated April 17, s / g on maintaining the secrecy of KV and T-34 machines, it is forbidden to disclose the tactical and technical properties of these machines to persons not working on these machines.

      That is, their own infantry and even its command personnel of the technical characteristics of the new tanks do not know.
      Quote: Pyotr Ivanov
      Tank corps in the Red Army, for a moment began to form from the end of June 1940 !!!!!

      Mechanized housing.
      Quote: Pyotr Ivanov
      And, as I wrote above, industrial supplies in bulk T-34 and KV went only in January 1941!

      Well, the 115 T-34s were released in 1940. True, evil tongues slander that 90% of these machines were returned to the factory under warranty - to repair and eliminate deficiencies
      1. 0
        26 February 2019 21: 29
        Well, you see a colleague, you painted everything correctly! I just outlined these questions that you have more widely disclosed!
        For the sake of objectivity, I repeat: Our grandfathers fought with what they had and how they could! Let me remind you that in July 1941, one of the Wehrmacht generals wrote in his diaries: "Having tanks ... the Russians do not understand at all how to dispose of them!"
        All this does not mean that our ancestors were complete stupid, NO! Against Pavlov’s front-district, for example, 2 came !!! Panzer Groups, and that’s when France came alone! And if the French simply fled throwing weapons and whole equipment, then the Red Army fought and counterattacked as soon as possible ... Glory to them, Great!
        Those who served and fought know what it is.
        I have the honor!
        1. +2
          26 February 2019 23: 43
          Quote: Pyotr Ivanov
          Our grandfathers fought with what they had and how they could!

          Hmm, this is an interesting question.
          The author in the first article writes, it’s quite reasonable that after finding the right topic - the tank division - the Germans could ride trucks for the time being: the main thing is to prepare people and organization, and the materiel will follow.
          Why was the Red Army not enough for this 100500 T-26, BT and T-28?
          Quote: Pyotr Ivanov
          And if the French simply fled throwing weapons and whole equipment, the Red Army fought and counterattacked as soon as possible ...

          Oh, but the Red Army or the Wehrmacht didn’t run or drop a single time. Wow, what news.
          1. 0
            28 February 2019 14: 58
            “The author in the first article writes, quite reasonably, that having groped for the right topic - a tank division - the Germans could, for the time being, ride at least in trucks: the main thing is to prepare people and the organization, and the materiel will follow.
            Why did the Red Army not have enough 100500 T-26, BT and T-28 for this? "

            If briefly, well, then: 1. The reorganization of the Red Army began in 1939. This is a complete change in the principles of manning and organization of troops. Briefly: with a police prince. formir in the army - one-man management (with the special role of commissars!). All this reorg. should have been finished. by the end of 1942!
            2. Tanks, as a branch of the armed forces, appeared en masse in the Red Army by the mid-1930s !!! And their application (in military science) was only determined! Remember the masses of names and types of tanks only in European countries! And our experience in Spain, Mongolia and Finland gave a lot of different views on the mass use of tanks, both in tactics and in operational art. Still would! All these conflicts and wars varied in geography, masses of tanks, and in other ways of military operations / warfare.
            I think this is enough for such a narrow format. I understand that the topic is generally vast!
            I have the honor!
            1. +1
              28 February 2019 16: 09
              Quote: Pyotr Ivanov
              Anki, as a branch of the army, massively appeared in the Red Army in the mid-1930s !!! And their application (in military science) was only determined! Remember the masses of names and types of tanks only in European countries! And our experience in Spain, Mongolia and Finland gave a lot of different views on the mass use of tanks, both in tactics and in operational art. Still would! All these conflicts and wars varied in geography, masses of tanks, and in other ways of military operations / warfare.

              To listen to you, it’s a combat experience (plus the fact that the exercises of the Kiev Military District took place in the 35th, and Louisiana maneuvers, for example, in the 41st) - this is a minus, not a plus.
              1. 0
                28 February 2019 16: 28
                And this happens, the experience of using mechanized corps in the Border Battle was considered negative, which led to very serious consequences.
              2. 0
                28 February 2019 16: 46
                Maneuvers are not military actions, there is a lot of artificial and bullets do not whistle! This is the axiom of every responsible commander and military leader !!! A.V. Suvorov said: "It is hard in learning, easy in camping trip!" Camping tripbecause he taught his troops speed movement in order to forestall the enemy! And that maneuver and beat the small forces of the enemy!
                I am not an employee of the Main Operations Directorate of the General Staff of the USSR / RF! I only know that of the main problems of the Red Army in June, July, and August 1941 are (according to archival documents available today, and I think that there is no other way to prove it): 1. Reforming (structural) of the Red Army in 1939 - the end of 1942;
                2. GP (Main Opponent) of the USSR on the European theater of operations until September 1939) was Belopan Poland with its mounted army;
                3. Weak knowledge of the enemy by Us! From that and A. the three-echelon construction of the border armies of the 1st Strategic Defensive Echelon of the Red Army, with intervals between echelons up to 100 km !!! The Wehrmacht beat the spacecraft in parts and neither the second nor the third echelons help already, the echelon ahead was not in power! B. Completely did not expect a strategic offensive in the Minsk sector (Army Group Center, 3rd Reich).
                4. Unavailability of the USSR Armed Forces to war with Germany due to the failure to deploy the army infrastructure (airfields, communications, storage bases, etc.) in the New Parts of the USSR (Western Ukraine and Belarus). Weapons from the line of URs on the old border were dismantled, but they did not manage to equip the new border! And not only!
                This is not all of course!
                I have the honor!
        2. +3
          27 February 2019 12: 03
          Quote: Pyotr Ivanov
          All this does not mean that our ancestors were complete stupid, NO! Against Pavlov’s front-district, for example, 2 came !!! Panzer Groups, and that’s when France came alone!

          Yeah ... only to counter the blows of these groups Pavlov could not. When trying to hit the flank, Gotu, the best in the 6th MK district, ran into the defense of one German front - and got stuck, having lost combat efficiency in two days of fighting.
          Quote: Pyotr Ivanov
          And if the French simply fled throwing weapons and whole equipment, the Red Army fought and counterattacked as soon as possible ...

          As I understand it, you are not aware of the use of French BTV. But the battles of the French armored and light mechanized divisions almost one-on-one repeat the combat operations of our MKs in 1941. If you remove the names of the French and the names of the settlements, you can hardly distinguish them.
          1. 0
            28 February 2019 15: 50
            You, perhaps(!) it is easy to pose the question like this:
            "Yeah ... only to counter the blows of these groups Pavlov could not. When trying to hit the flank, Gotu, the best in the 6th MK district, ran into the defense of one German front - and got stuck, having lost combat efficiency in two days of fighting."
            Do you have any idea what a German combined strike by T.N. (!) A tank group, model June 1941, is? I guess not really! And then there are a lot of significant factors! Have you ever fought from a peacetime state, even in a fully deployed state? Do you think that it is possible to put opponents on the same level, one with several years of experience in conducting large-scale military operations in the whole European theater of operations and the other, with limited experience of the Finnish / Polish campaigns, as a maximum, and being at the stage of reorganization and underdevelopment and undersupply of certain types of weapons (such as tanks KV and T-34, for example)? And in essence, our Soviet General Staff confirms and any sensible person will agree to take it off ... "The Pavlovsk district-front, HAS NO (!) The forces and means to resist such a strong enemy!"
            Of course, these are not all my arguments. But what can I ...
            I have the honor!
  33. +1
    26 February 2019 20: 57
    Quote: MooH
    Why do I need it?

    Think? Finns even Soviet propaganda called the White Finns a maximum, and here fascists are direct. They didn’t even have an army before the Winter War. Here in Spain there were fascists.
  34. 0
    26 February 2019 20: 58
    Quote: MooH
    That as if emphasizes their differences from the unambiguously right-wing fascists

    Point blank I don’t understand what difference is left they right? Why are you so concerned about this issue? The article is not about that at all. Write an article about National Socialism and there prove that it and fascism are two different things and citizens who are interested in the issue will criticize you. Or maybe they’ll praise it.
    Personally, I deeply do not care whether it is appropriate to call Hitler a fascist. I have called, I will name and will name, even if you can scientifically prove otherwise. For there is a well-established figure of speech - "German fascist invaders". If you personally do not like it, go to the profile topic and prove there, and here is a discussion of tanks, not varieties of antique feces.

    Too many emotions for a person who, this question does not care))
  35. 0
    27 February 2019 01: 59
    But it is impossible to process any teeth on a turning and rotary machine, it is simply not designed to work with such surfaces.

    The teeth will be correct, not the teeth. The gears have teeth. The teeth are cut on gear cutting machines. And on turning-rotary bodies of revolution of large diameter are processed. Gear cutting machines - for straight gears, gear cutting machines - for bevel gears. There are gear shaping and gear hobbing machines. Worms for a worm gear can be made on a lathe of an acceptable length and diameter. In the first half of the 20th century, this was done in the mechanical assembly shops of machine-building enterprises. I write from my head, without reference books, therefore I can be mistaken in trifles, but generally so. In the USSR, everything necessary for mechanical engineering was and the tanks spanked like pies.
  36. +1
    27 February 2019 02: 08
    It is interesting to know who collected them in snot in the Urals? because of h and why and gallop? machine tools in open workshops women youth and children thank you. for the Germans!
  37. 0
    27 February 2019 09: 48
    So, judging by the information available today, the respected M. Baryatinsky still was mistaken in his judgment about the presence in the USSR of turning and rotary lathes of the appropriate size.

    As an engineer, the machine tool builder I take under the protection of Baryatinsky and note the apparent superficiality in the author's judgments. The numerous photographs he cited are clearly out of place.
    1. Boring operations are the processing of internal surfaces of revolution. It can be produced on turning, including windshields with horizontal and vertical axes of rotation of the faceplate, milling and even drilling machines. I just can’t imagine how a multi-ton colossus of a tank’s hull is piled on a giant faceplate, will give the whole mass a rotation of at least one revolution per second and thereby create huge beats on the faceplate bearings. Isn't it easier to spin the machine spindle?
    2. For this kind of boring work, there are special portal multi-column or radial machines with a rotating spindle and a non-movable faceplate. It is a pity the author did not cite any such photographs.
    3. Slotting work, in the form of keyways, with a universal lathe is performed on any lathe. In the same way it is possible to process a gear wheel by sharpening a mortising cutter under the corresponding profile. So I can imagine how the gear crown of the shoulder strap should be performed on a radial boring or gantry boring machine.
    4. Recently I saw a link that the necessary boring machine was available only at the Kirov Plant, but they did not manage to evacuate it from Leningrad and had to wait for a Lend-Lease. This, incidentally, is indirectly confirmed by the fact that during the blockade at the Kirov plant they continued to produce KV-1.
    1. 0
      27 February 2019 10: 43
      1. Boring machines are used for such work. Where the workpiece is stationary, and the adjustable boring head rotates - like a lathe, just the opposite. Such machines were also everywhere in mechanical assembly shops of machine-building production, where necessary. Without boring machines, there was little production that could be done. They, along with turning and milling, are the most common.
      3. Of course, it is possible to make a small groove for a turner of sufficiently high qualification, but this is not productive on a universal lathe. In case of piece production, they can probably do that. With serial, they will not torture the turner. It is simpler and better on a special machine: milling or grooving, there are also broaching machines for broaching grooves. There were specialized sea equipment for various tasks in those years. You can’t handle the gear like that anymore, because you need different accuracy and it will come out manually for too long without guaranteeing a high-quality result. Or a significant modernization of the machine will be required, turning it practically into a gear-shaping one, which in practice is easier to install a separate machine for such work on the site, because lathes are, as a rule, loaded with work, and their kinematics are designed more for other loads - for processing surfaces of bodies rotation, various threads and screw surfaces. For the production of various gears and gears, there was a whole fleet of specialized gear-cutting and gear-shaping machines - they could stand in whole sections directly at enterprises. Now many works can be performed at universal processing centers, but for the first half of the 20th century there was no such equipment.
      1. 0
        27 February 2019 10: 50
        The photo above in one of the posts just shows a vertically grooving tooth-processing machine installed in the shop of Nizhny Tagil in 1942. Apparently that is it.
        1. 0
          27 February 2019 10: 57
          I saw areas with similar equipment, only for the production of even larger parts than are used in the manufacture of tanks. But already, of course, more modern, much later. It is strange that this topic has been raised in the VO and people are worried that tanks in the USSR had nothing to do. Everything was in the USSR. For 15 years of Stalin’s administration of the country, the USSR entered the Top Five of the World Industrial Leaders. They did everything: from watches and microscopes to large-capacity ships. But tanks - this is so, in the load, if not for the Second World War.
          1. 0
            27 February 2019 11: 20
            There were no radial boring machines for large bore diameters. They simply did not need until time. And of course we didn’t produce machines at that time.
            1. 0
              27 February 2019 11: 41
              Quote: Jurkovs
              There were no radial boring machines for large bore diameters. They simply did not need until time. And of course we didn’t produce machines at that time.

              At first they bought, sort of. But they quickly established their own production. The USSR was an engineering power. After the war, more trophy machines were brought, but this is normal practice. Although they could produce their own, and produced, but an extra machine in the farm is not a hindrance. But in the 90s, proudly smashed and exported all the valuable and key individual characters, and joyfully reported to the Americans that the next production in Russia was destroyed. Now Poroshenko in Ukraine is doing the same thing: he is finishing off and destroying what he did not create - like a carbon copy of what Russia experienced in the beginning of the 90s repeating. In addition to the fascism, which he imposes in the country, so that the type of war with Russia. America is getting smaller, I’m wanging that soon they will not have enough strength for Moldova and Georgia, and then they will be divided themselves, and they will tie them up and put them to bed. And Chubais and Co. finally sit down.
  38. 0
    27 February 2019 10: 18
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Then, scholars will come to the final conclusion that in National Socialism in Germany is not fascism.

    And there are three options for determining fascism. And Germany is fascist only in the Soviet version.
    1. 0
      28 February 2019 07: 20
      Quote: Jurkovs
      And Germany is fascist only in the Soviet version.

      Yeah. I did not know that the British Encyclopedia was written by Soviet historians. laughing
  39. -1
    27 February 2019 18: 34
    [quote] Actually, it was about the diameter of the shoulder strap over 1500 mm. How many such tanks did the SSR produce and at which plants? [/ Quote]
    1. The USSR produced a lot of such tanks (with a shoulder strap of more than 1500 mm) and could produce them even in 1940, when no Lend-lease machines were still hitting. Here are extracts from a letter from the head of the 1st department of the 3rd department of the armored directorate of the GABTU KA, Lieutenant Colonel I. Panov (the supervisor of work on the T-34 from the armored directorate) addressed to Lieutenant General Fedorenko, dated 13.12.1940/428/34: "Resolution of KO No. 34 provides for the expansion of the turret of the T-200 tank without expanding the shoulder strap.This modernization does not give the full effectiveness of improving the combat qualities of the tank .... Is it possible to expand the shoulder strap of the T-XNUMX tank turret? Yes, it is. XNUMX mm. Is this expansion possible from the point of view of production? Perhaps, since for the Mariupol plant this extension does not matter, and factory number 183 has machine tools for the production of extended shoulder straps. "Here we are talking about the T-34 and the expansion of the shoulder strap from 1400 to 1600 mm.
    2. If there was no way to expand the turret on a certain part of the tanks, there were many other opportunities for them - expand the turret without expanding the front, or install a new 76 mm gun with hanging ballistics, or a fixed cabin with an 85 mm gun (more than SU-85) and so on very good alternatives. And without lendliz machines
    [quote] Yeah ... and they did them in Leningrad - at the LMZ. It was only in September 1941 that a small problem arose with the production of something in Leningrad. Also towers were made by Nikolaev Shipbuilding Plant No. 198. There the problems started even earlier. [/ Quote]
    I wonder how did the towers for ships do there? Their shoulder straps should hit more than 3 meters. And if in Leningrad and Nikolaev there was a problem with production, that prevented the children from evacuating so expensive machines where there were no problems with production. Or can evacuation of equipment from Leningrad in 1943-44 be more difficult than import from the USA? Another thing is if the United States has such machines in abundance. Then for a few extra machines there will always be work.
    [quote] In Molotovsk, at factory No. 402, the construction of the tower workshop did not begin before the war, and the carousel ordered for it remained in Germany. [/ quote]
    The thing is that the machines were ordered in the USA because they were not delivered from Germany. And vice versa - if the USA was not beaten by the allies and the USSR could not order machines in the USA, then they could be delivered from Germany or Japan. Of course, the USSR could fight with the whole world and then there would be a different solution to the problems, but it managed to avoid it. In other words, with and without landlisz, the USSR could produce tens of thousands of armored vehicles with powerful artillery - tanks and self-propelled guns, and this is an indisputable fact.
    [quote] [quote = Kostadinov] Then you can agree with Japan - to sell its oil and get the machines. [/ quote]
    Yeah ... the smart plan is to give the main enemy in the Far East the very resource whose lack kept it from war with the USSR. The army went south only because Japan had enough fuel resources for the war in only one direction, and new fuel could be captured only in the south. [/ quote]
    In 1943-44, Japan had long gone to war south and did not search for new fronts. By the way, Japan agreed with the USSR in April 1941 and then complied with the agreement. So the main enemy was beating in the West and not in the East.
    [[quote] quote = Kostadinov] It didn’t and couldn’t beat anything that was obtained by landlis that could not be beaten or produced on its own or replaced with something else. [/ quote]
    Seed grain. Tungsten. Copper. High octane and additives. Gunpowder and components for its production. [/ Quote]
    1. It is not clear before the Lendlis of the USSR did not produce seed grain or what? You can’t increase the production of its seed grain or buy it in Argentina or in Turkey, or both? Tungsten and honey, too, can not be bought in the wide world or can they be replaced or cut back on any production or both?
    2. Most of the high octane can always be replaced but a lower octane with a slight loss of engine power. Moreover, more than half of the consumption of aviation gasoline is not for combat flights. If there are no Lendlis planes and there is no transfer of them through Siberia, then only the Soviet mission for combat fighter aircraft is enough with a beat. The same thing about explosives - part of it can be replaced, it will reduce the production of heavy aerial bombs and so on. With jet and gasoline and explosives, a large amount remained at the end of the war, and most of the gasoline and explosives from landlize came after the end of the war with Germany. So the cut should be beaten a little.
    [quote] No Chilean copper - forget about the massive transition to the 85 mm caliber. Because the sleeve of an 85 mm shot weighs three times the sleeve of a 76,2 mm shot (divisor) - and requires as much more copper. [/ Quote]
    And what did Chile beat in the war with the USSR and did not want to sell copper? Copper can also be replaced, and if you could not make steel sleeves in 1939-40, this does not mean that they could not be made in 1941-45. In addition, you can always reduce the production of large-caliber cannon shells, which consume a lot of copper and explosives.

    Vivod: 1. Lendliz beat because the USSR was beaten by an ally and this was beaten in the same way as the USA. If the United States did not beat the allies of the USSR and did not beat Lendliz, then others could beat the allies of the USSR.
    2. There is no and cannot beat anything indispensable for the USSR in lendlize. Lendlis is the smallest thing the United States could do for its allies. What are allies if they do not want to do? Even more actively and decisively participated in the war with Germany with their ground troops since 1942, this could have beaten real allied assistance.
  40. 0
    28 February 2019 17: 00
    Thanks to the author. I didn’t know that somewhere such information could be found. Only one thing comes to mind. The machine tool is different. The harder the material, the higher the revolutions needed to process it sharply. The higher the speed, the better the machine and the cutters for it should be.
  41. 0
    2 March 2019 19: 05
    Many thanks to the author for the article, finally, there was someone who reasonably and technically competently refuted the myth imposed on us about the impossibility of increasing the diameter of the T-34 epaulet.
  42. 0
    7 March 2019 20: 47
    The T-34s were put into production for one simple reason - the tanks of the BT family no longer satisfied the military, but the plant could not produce fundamentally different designs.

    It was possible that the factory had a shoulder strap of larger diameter, but the hull design did not allow it to be installed. The T-34-85 had to change the design of the hull, which was difficult to do before the Second World War because of the decision to switch to a new tank instead of the T-34 (T-34M, A-43), and during the war they could only go on such modernization its end, when the outcome of the war was already clear.

    As for the T-28, its main problem was the lack of a sufficient number of qualified designers, technologists and workers in the country. But by 1936 it had really been brought up to standard and became the most reliable tank in the Red Army. Moreover, the developers of SKB-2 were able to make its serial high-speed modification of the T-28A, which saved the country from the wheeled-tracked T-29 (last "hello" Tukhachevsky). Of course, the T-28 was a complex and expensive design, but it was much cheaper than the more massive pre-war T-34.