The Navy: Choosing a Balance Between Preparations for Hostilities and Peacetime Tasks

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Discussing the combat readiness of the Navy, the ability of the state to provide the fleet with everything necessary and the correctness of the chosen development strategy fleet, we usually mean the need to be prepared for hostilities. If the exit from the base, then through mines and with the preliminary elimination of enemy submarines in an ambush at the exit, if the landing, then a bloody assault on the enemy’s coast, plowing tens of square kilometers of land with artillery fire from the sea, burned the skeletons of landing ships in shallow water and “rafting” from human bodies along the line of the surf - those who were unlucky to slip through the sweeping shore. Hence the desire and requirement to have minesweepers and modern mine action weapons, hence the need for shock aviation ashore to "deal" with enemy ship strike groups, and much more.

But behind this militaristic approach it is worth remembering that in the future a big war with our traditional enemies is far less likely than the continuation of the “near-war” confrontation with them, overflowing with stresses, provocations, demonstration of force, threats, false attacks, covert operations ... and losses, yes but not comparable with combat. Non-war, or new cold war, is much more likely than the potentially unpredictable "hot."



In the 70s, the naval shock groups of the USSR Navy more than once looked at the Americans "through the scope". The latter did not hesitate to demonstrate strength, arranging hooligan flights over the masts of our ships, brazenly could congratulate an officer with a new position even before the information about this came to the ship through regular communication channels (and ruin his career). Sometimes it was very hot: with shooting across the course, attempts to go to the ram, but there was no war. Ours, by the way, are also not particularly shy.

The Navy: Choosing a Balance Between Preparations for Hostilities and Peacetime Tasks

The "raids" of the Soviet naval rocket-carrying aircraft on American AUGs were a bright sign of the Cold War. In the photo, our Tu-16 (some of the "K", apparently the scout) and the aircraft carrier "Ranger"


In 80, when the Reagan Crusader team made a firm decision to crush the USSR and developed powerful pressure, including on the Soviet Navy, it became even hotter (Reagan Navy Minister John Lehman gave a brief but powerful assessment in one of his interviews).

But the real war did not happen either, the USSR surrendered without it.

The logic of operations in war and non-war is diametrically different. For example, the recent passage of an American destroyer through Peter the Great Bay in a real war would have resulted in its sinking, most likely by an air strike from the shore. But in the logic of non-war, this was an attempt by the Americans to put pressure on us. To put pressure on them, showing that they didn’t give a damn about how we view this or that section of the World Ocean and what rights we have on it. Showing that it is their "spit", they are ready to back up with force, if necessary.

Specifically, there and then, it turned out they, frankly, not very. But even in this case, our Ministry of Defense had to make a special statement with explanations about the event, and the BOD also had to be sent to monitor the destroyer.

Lose the situation "in the other direction." The upgraded cruiser "Admiral Nakhimov" as the embodied readiness to deliver a missile strike and a pair of BOD to ensure near-zone air defense and air defense systems will also be noted near the shores of the United States.

Would such a demonstration have military significance? No, in a real war they would not have reached there. And the political? What else. Even a banal voyage of a reconnaissance ship near American territorial waters usually causes a wave of publications in the American press - but in the press, so to speak, of the "third echelon". But this is with the passages of unarmed scouts. A cruiser potentially capable of attacking dozens of targets on the coast, repulsing a strong air attack and then, after that, sinking more than one surface ship is a completely different phenomenon. Yes, in the event of the outbreak of hostilities, he will be doomed, but firstly, the enemy will pay a very considerable price for this, secondly, he is able to inflict huge damage in this case, and thirdly, such a waving of the barrel in front of his nose is certainly will not leave Americans indifferent. Someone else's cruising connection at your tervods is a symbol. Now it is more interesting for Russia not to provoke the United States with such antics, trying to play a civilized peace-loving country slandered by propaganda (which, by the way, is true). But everything can change.

Examples are (in English). Frankly, taking into account the intensity of the passions that was accompanied by that summit, the presence of the missile cruiser was quite appropriate.

For example, the number of ships in the PLA Navy will turn into the quality of the PLA Navy itself and they will “mate” with the Americans like our fleet during the Cold War. Then it will be possible for the Americans to make very thick hints in response to their every provocation - as soon as they send their AUGs to “restrain” the same Chinese AUGs, our ships may well appear near the Hawaiian islands, or a couple of ten miles to the south, showing the Americans that their calculations the correlation of forces with the enemy may be suddenly and at an extremely inappropriate moment for them - and not in the best direction for them. And that it is time to recognize our right to live on this planet, moreover, in the way we ourselves want, and not according to commands from Washington. Or prepare for surprises.


The destroyer "Dragon" of the Royal Navy of Great Britain accompanies our "Kuznetsov" in the English Channel. Such an escort has no military meaning, but it is necessary to demonstrate the strength - at least such. Sure to


To illustrate how these operations look and what they lead to, let us analyze one of these operations, since this is simply a textbook example.

At the beginning of the Reagan era, Americans still suffered from a lack of a coherent concept of what they should do with the expanded Soviet Navy and by what methods. However, their new “Maritime strategy” was adopted and refined, providing for an “attack” on Soviet naval positions in the world, so that, many years later, John Lehman would say “drive Soviet naval bears back to their dens”.

In order to mark the beginning of a new era for the Soviet Union, the exercises Norpac FleetEx Ops'82, scheduled for the autumn of 1982, were chosen.

It makes no sense to completely describe in the article what happened there, it will be much more useful for those interested to familiarize themselves with the essay by Rear Admiral V.A. Karev "Unknown Soviet Pearl Harbor". V.A. Karev was a direct participant in our events. The people who served in Kamchatka in those years found a number of inaccuracies and inconsistencies in his memories, but not fundamental ones. The essay, among other things, well conveys the spirit of that era.

Here it is worth listing briefly the sequence of the American operation:

1. Open promotion of AUG Enterprise to Kamchatka.

2. Covert extension of the AUG Midway to Kamchatka. The Americans, who “figured out” how Soviet intelligence works, managed to “substitute” Midway for it at night, moreover, that our Pacific Americans took “Midway” as “Enterprise.”

3. Fires in the barracks at the Soviet radio interception points on Iturup island and in Provideniya. For those who are “not local”, it is necessary to clarify that the distance between them is thousands of kilometers. Almost simultaneous fires of the barracks at night in different, but critically important for the disruption of the deployment of American military units can not be a coincidence. So the assumption of Rear Admiral Karev about the attack of special forces SEAL is most likely true. It should be understood that both in Soviet times and after them, the entire defense system of the coast of Chukotka could be completely disorganized by literally read sabotage groups, and it was impossible, not possible, to stop their disembarkation, or to stop advancement from the coastline to the attacked objects. Apparently, it was the same on the Kuriles. Most likely, the Americans really did it, especially since then the raids of their naval special forces on the territory of the USSR became a sad reality.

4. Formation of an aircraft carrier connection (AUS) of AUG Enterprise and Midway AUG with a size and layer sufficient for defeating Soviet forces on the Kamchatka Peninsula, both Marine and air.

5. Beginning of air strikes in Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky.

And only after that Soviet intelligence spotted the Americans.

Here is how Karev describes it:
Thus, we remained in the dark about where the Midway AUG is located. And only on the afternoon of Sunday, a report was received from our coastal radio squadron in Kamchatka that our posts commemorate the work of the ships at frequencies of the AUG Midway intra-firing link.
It was a shock. The radio finding results showed that the newly formed carrier-assault strike compound (Enterprise and Midway), consisting of more than 30 ships, maneuvers 300 miles southeast of Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky and conducts flights of deck aircraft at a distance of 150 km from our coast.
Urgent report to the headquarters of the Navy. Commander-in-Chief of the Navy Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Gorshkov SG make a decision immediately. Urgently send the Sentry Guard patrol ship, three 671 RTM multi-purpose nuclear submarines to track the AUS, organize continuous aerial reconnaissance, bring the entire naval carrier of the Pacific Fleet fully operational, establish close cooperation with the air defense system in the Far East, and bring it into full combat readiness all parts and ships of the intelligence of the Pacific Fleet.
In response to such aggressive actions by the Americans to prepare for the departure a naval division of the naval-carrying aviation in readiness, on Monday to designate an airborne missile attack on an aircraft carrier. At the same time, multi-purpose nuclear-powered submarines with cruise missiles were also preparing to strike.
13 Monday, September. The reconnaissance of the Pacific Fleet will have to locate the AUS and deploy a naval missile-bearing aviation division. But at that time, radio silence was introduced on the ships of the US aircraft carrier. All radar stations are turned off. We are carefully studying the data of optical space intelligence. There is no reliable data on the location of aircraft carriers. Nevertheless, the departure of the MRA from Kamchatka took place. In an empty place.
Only a day later, on Tuesday, 14 of September, we learn from the data of the air defense posts in the Kuril Islands that the carrier-based strike force is maneuvering east of the island of Paramushir (the Kuril Islands), conducting flights of carrier-based aircraft.
Then they managed to send the sentry ship “Storozheva” to the aircraft carriers (TCR “Watchdog” at one time gained notoriety at the Main Command of the Navy after the well-known events in the Baltic Sea connected with the hijacking of the ship in 1975 under the command of the Kremlin’s politician. the crew was disbanded, and the ship was transferred from the Baltic to Kamchatka). Now this ship has become a direct tracking ship for the AUS. Multipurpose submarines sent to monitor the American AUS did not quite cope with their tasks, as this is the most difficult task for the submarine commander. It is necessary to try to be undetected in the composition of the order of connection.
Ultimately, the US carrier strike force passed east of the Kuril Islands, revealing the capabilities of the Soviet air defense to protect its borders. The apotheosis of this transition was the violation of the airspace of the USSR in the area of ​​the Small Kuril chain (the islands of Tanfiliev, Anchuchin, Yuri, Polonsky, Green, Shikotan) by aircraft of carrier-based aircraft. It turned out that our "all-weather" fighter aircraft, represented by outdated MIG-19 and MIG-21 fighters, is not able to withstand the American decked-off phantom and attack aircraft "Intruderam." The weather did not allow them to use. After this next spit in our direction, the carrier connection (Enterprise, Midway) through the Sangar Strait entered the Sea of ​​Japan.


This is how it looked. Moreover, as noted by Karev below, according to the scenario of the American exercises, the attack of the AUS on Kamchatka, to which the Americans were able to make secrets, was preceded by a training attack by cruise missiles from submarines, which the Navy did not suspect.

This is such a non-war. It was with such measures of psychological pressure that the USA broke the will of the Soviet political leadership. And eventually broke. Not just at sea, of course. Those interested in the question can find and read the book by Peter Schweitzer “Victory”, everything is well described there. At the same time, no real "big" war happened.

What was the intention of the American political leadership conducting such provocative exercises? In order for the USSR to understand: should the Americans strike first, and they will not be stopped. It was a banal forcing fear from the enemy. Of course, in a real war already underway, it would not have been possible to do this. But before it began, when preparing the strike, everything worked out perfectly - it really happened. Then there were a lot of such exercises, and not only in the Pacific, but in the mid-eighties, the USSR began to curtail its presence in the World Ocean. That was what the Americans wanted.

The conclusion from all this is this: the fleet, in principle, is capable of forcing the enemy to perform certain actions without war, but for this the threat created by him must be clear and realistic. It must be implementable. And then the enemy may flinch. Although it may become embittered, and then it will only get worse. But this is the task of politicians - to choose the right moment to demonstrate force.

Here are a couple of examples.

In the 70-ies of the Soviet Navy practiced, and successfully, its own set of measures to put pressure on the Americans. These measures consisted in deploying submarines with cruise missiles ready for striking from the American naval formations and tracking the American formations by surface ships. The ship provided target designation, the submarines "struck" a blow. The strike of the submarines could, and if possible should have been, accompanied by attacks from the Naval rocket-carrying aircraft. This tactic, for all its drawbacks, for the time being, was a very effective tool for non-strategic deterrence, and ensured that at the beginning of the war, the US Navy would suffer monstrous losses in ships and people - right away. In the red, it was this that gave rise to the American response in the eighties. But it could have been otherwise, and with proper management of the course of events, it should have been.


TFR "Hot" project 1135 keeps track of the US Navy AUG


How can such measures work today? Well, for example, as soon as NATO began its Trident Juncture teachings, it was necessary not only to “deceive” them with GPS, as it was done, and to spy on them with Tu-142M, but also, for example, to form an ATC of Baltic Fleet ships and frigates of the Black Sea Fleet , and the airborne detachment of the Black Sea and Baltic BDK with the marines (and this is about ten ships, that is, about two battalions with equipment), after which, by the forces of this detachment, "shake" from Gibraltar. Together with the aircraft from Hmeimima. Subtly hinting, so to speak. With the subsequent delivery of a series of real strikes on the pro-British gangster groups somewhere in Syria, with their demonstrative destruction. Yes, it would not have special military significance, but it would have a political one - the Britons would be shown that they could be pressed not quite where they are ready for it. Not necessarily in Gibraltar, anywhere.

Such fleet operations are in fact no less important than preparation for an apocalyptic war with the United States and NATO. Although preparation should take place, otherwise such raids will be a clean and easily recognizable bluff, but the fact of the matter is that it is impossible to focus on one preparation for a “real” war, and even one scenario (we were attacked). What if the enemy does not attack? And investments in the fleet should pay off.

Article “Offensive or defense? There are enough resources for one thing. ” it was stated that in a limited budget, extensive development, such as the necessary forces of the Middle Sea zone (coastal attack aircraft, PLO corvettes, small rocket ships, minesweepers, etc.) will leave power for the Far Sea and Ocean zones not only without money for ships, but without people. Now it's time to complicate the situation even more and to voice another water one - creating a fleet capable of effectively putting pressure on the enemy using the methods described above, and creating a fleet capable of inflicting maximum losses on an enemy in a real war, these are similar tasks, but these are different tasks. They differ from each other, like a multi-shot pistol taken out of a holster in their hands, and a smaller pistol with a silencer, with a smaller ammunition package, hidden under clothes. It seems, but not the same.

For example, in order to "put pressure" on the enemy, we will approach a destroyer or better a URO cruiser with cruise missiles. It is well suited to strike a weak opponent, and to demonstrate strength, and to demonstrate a flag. But for conducting combat operations near its shores, a regiment of Su-30CM armed with anti-ship missiles of various types and pilots with special maritime training will be more useful. Different things.


1988 year, the territorial waters of the USSR. TFR "Selfless" performs bulk on the Ticonderoga class URO cruiser "Yorktown", displacing it into neutral waters. The actions of the Americans are quite in the spirit of the Cold War, and not the real war. The USSR would be better to save your ship, but send a couple of cruisers to Guam


In order to ensure the deployment of SSBN in the period of danger, we need only ships. In order to cover the bases of terrorists in Africa or cause hysteria in the Times - other ships. Sometimes the role will be combined. But often it will be the other way around. For example, minesweepers are vital during a war, but of little use during "force pressure" operations.

One of the tasks of the future naval construction will be to determine the balance between ships more suitable for putting pressure on an opponent and those that will be needed to kill its military in the course of a real, large, escalating spiral of war. Where there is no tracking weapons and counter-tracking, where the commanders do not test each other's nerves, but immediately drown the discovered ship of the "opponent" or at least try. Of course, the ships most needed for power pressure will be able to fight in a full-scale war, and ships built in strict accordance with the requirements of such a war can also be used in peacetime operations, but they will be very "non-optimal" when deciding "not their own "Tasks. Therefore, it will be necessary to reveal this balance and stick to it, because on the one hand, the best fight is the one that did not take place, and on the other, the state is the embodiment of readiness for war. Both of these statements are true, and it will be necessary to correspond to both, having decided in some way the existing contradiction in the requirements for the number and types of ships.

After all, ultimately the goal of the existence of the armed forces is the achievement of the political goals of the country by force. And force can not only be used, but also demonstrated, and this too should be able to do right, if only out of philanthropy.

There is simply no other choice.
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  1. +4
    21 January 2019 06: 42
    Good article, makes you think. By and large, the fleet is always in business, there is always work for it. In this sense, not only the readiness for a big war is important, but also the pre-launch period, various local conflicts and demonstrations, where the success of these may well become a prevention against a big war, timely relief of problems. We do not have to compete in the number of ships with the United States and its allies, here we will always have fewer, not only aircraft carriers, over which disputes do not subside, but the same destroyers and frigates. But, the fleet must perform ALL tasks at sea, for this it must be COMPLETE, and it will only be full-fledged if it has all the classes of ships that have generated scientific and technological progress, the evolution of the development of naval weapons. This also applies to aviation at sea, for its presence anywhere in the world ocean, and this cannot be fully done without carrier-based aviation, and its carrier, aircraft carrier or helicopter carrier. Here, as in a chess game, all pieces are needed, not just pawns. What kind of emphasis should be made in general, this should already be based on geopolitical realities, the pros and cons of our geography. In my humble opinion, for us the area of ​​possible domination is the Arctic, where we need to develop our own system of observation and control of the underwater environment, such as the American SOSUS (SOSUS), to develop Arctic strategic boats to patrol them under the protection of the polar cap. In the Atlantic and the Pacific Ocean, in addition to a pair of strike groups on duty, it seems reasonable to have a network of "wolf packs" of relatively cheap and low-noise diesel-electric submarines with CD and nuclear submarines with CD, capable of inflicting a guaranteed strike on naval bases and large coastal cities of the United States. By the way, "diesels" are, perhaps, the only type by which we can achieve superiority, the United States does not build them, but for us, with the right approach, it is "cheap and cheerful", even with one RC with a special unit, a group of boats is capable cause unacceptable damage to the territory of the United States. Let them know that somewhere near there is a "black hole", this, coupled with preemptive actions and demonstrations of shock groups, can cool hot heads.
    1. +2
      21 January 2019 13: 39
      By the way, "diesels" are, perhaps, the only type by which we can achieve superiority, the United States does not build them, but for us, with the right approach, it is "cheap and cheerful", even with one RC with a special unit, a group of boats is capable cause unacceptable damage to the territory of the United States. Let them know that somewhere near there is a "black hole", this, coupled with preemptive actions and demonstrations of shock groups, can cool hot heads.


      Yes, they are easily detected in fact.
      1. 0
        22 January 2019 06: 40
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Yes, they are easily detected in fact.
        If you are talking about the "standing wave" effect, any new methods of monitoring the ocean from the United States, then this is not a 100% sentence to the submarine fleet, there will always be nuances in which the boat may remain undetected. To this, being under the polar cap of the Arctic increases the chances of our boats, especially with the development of their own control system of the underwater environment and their own cover forces.
        1. +2
          22 January 2019 07: 11
          No, I'm not talking about that. More truly not only. It is clear that the sub-melting will not disappear anywhere, just as the planes did not disappear with the advent of radar and anti-aircraft missiles.

          The question is that right now on the DEPL to the American coast does not come up in any way.

          There are a few successful cases on the nuclear submarine - even when the boat sneaks up so that it does not generate waves on the surface, even when it goes to 2-3 knots and disguises itself, then at a certain moment somewhere a "quaker" "croaks" somewhere, and hydrophones catch the reflected from the boat's hull is a low-frequency signal - and it does not matter to him, it will be reflected from an absolutely noiseless object.

          And that's all.

          Do not break through there with the methods that we have. How many times have tried, and "losharika" right above the bottom was launched at the speed of a snail, nothing helps.
          1. +1
            22 January 2019 08: 05
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            The question is that right now on the DEPL to the American coast does not come up in any way.
            Alexander, is it really that bad? In general, these "Quakers" have questions about what they are, whose they are, and whether they belong to the tracking system of the United States or its allies. From Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky to Los Angeles, 4110 miles in a straight line (6618 kilometers), the Yankees did not cram their "Quakers" from our shores, whether it was their system. If a long-range missile launcher is launched with diesel-electric submarines, there is no need to literally approach the shores of the States. Regarding the "Quakers", as a completely audible ocean, it can hardly be said that the case is full of "seams". In any case, diesel-electric submarines have development potential, and these boats can and should be used.
            1. 0
              25 January 2019 20: 27
              Diesel engines of the "Varshavyanka" type are good for protecting naval bases, serving in ambushes in pouring zones and in more or less limited theaters - as long as the battery charge will last. Because, after turning on the diesel engine for charging, the floor of the ocean immediately becomes your grateful listeners. But "Caliber" of them will fly far.
              Here you should rather rely on anaerobic "Kalina" and others like her. Real progress seems to have appeared on them. Here is such a hidden ship can at a decent distance and sneak up unnoticed, and lay mines with land mines at the bottom, and "Caliber" from the heart of the sea-ocean base of the adversary. At the same time, have time to quickly wash away and not make noise with diesel engines.

              As for atomic hunters, before the appearance of the Husky, we can only hope for the old Schuk-B and his comrades, and for their repair. For "Kazan" are good, but very, very expensive (like two Boreas), they build slowly and there will be few. They would, in general, by the nature of weapons, more consistent with the tasks of hunting not for nuclear submarines, but for KUGs and AUGs, as well as strikes against the naval base and coastal infrastructure.
              Therefore, before the appearance of "Husky" in the medium term, it would be worth betting on anaerobes - for the quantitative increase of "hunting flocks".
    2. +1
      21 January 2019 16: 19
      As for the increase in the number of pl, including the dapl I agree. But there are still tasks that the author has not voiced. In addition to a full-fledged battle with NATO and confrontation with it in the genre of nerve games, there are still options. hi
      The first is peacetime tasks. For example, the demonstration of the flag, humanitarian and anti-piracy missions, reconnaissance and landing of special groups, the study of underwater conditions, raising underwater objects, long-distance study tours, patrolling, participating in international exercises, delivering goods and drugs to island outposts, etc.
      The second - local wars and operations not against NATO or with its limited participation. I remind you that in recent years we have not fought with NATO, but we fought with Georgia and, in fact, Ukraine. It was the Georgian navy that our army destroyed in Poti, and the Ukrainian captured in the Crimea. A war with NATO is still unlikely, but with GUAM, and SPECIFICALLY with UKRAINE, GEORGIA AND MOLDOVA - IT IS COMPLETELY REAL. request Plus there is still a war in Syria and operations in third countries. For example, an operation in Libya or the Central African Republic is possible. Or help Nicaragua in the defense of the construction of the channel. Again, the disputed sections of the sea and the Arctic must be protected and military pressure ensured there. And this task has long come to the fore. That is, we need the ability to destroy the enemy fleet in the classroom. From the level of Ukraine’s nedovmf to the fleet level of Turkey inclusive. Now we are friends with Turkey, but 3 years ago we were on the brink of war. What will happen if Erdogan leaves - xs. You have to be ready. That is, the balance of forces with the same Turkish fleet at the World Cup should be. Next, you must be able to strike at the territory and targets of the enemy from the sea. For example, to destroy the Ukrainian or Georgian military and infrastructure facilities. Well, or someone else's. request Next, you need to be able to land troops at a distance from their operating bases and capture objects. That is, you must be able to land at least a battalion of marines and maintain their operations. Plus, you need to be able to organize the supply of a remote expeditionary group on the level of the Syrian Express. That is, we need an udk or a large number of BDKs, plus supply vessels, tankers and dry cargo vessels. Further, we need the ability to block or patrol the enemy coast, intercept ships and ships, and disembark MTR groups. Well there are 22160 - they can handle it. True, it would be nice to build 6 of them at the Pacific Fleet. In general, you need to have the means to conduct a local war or conduct expeditionary operations at a distance from their bases. hi
      1. +5
        22 January 2019 00: 16
        Well, there is 22160 - they can handle it. True, it would be nice to build their 6 pieces at the Pacific Fleet.


        This is some kind of trolling, right? Is it okay that according to rumors "Bulls" did not take out the running gear and was accepted into operation "by a willful decision"?

        These ships:
        1. Made to civilian standards and are not combat.
        2. Do not have the desired level of survivability
        3. They do not have air defense systems, and they cannot be installed on them
        4. They do not have PLO facilities, and they cannot be installed on them
        5. Armed with only one gun and machine guns
        6. They do not have a significant cellar for the TSA and, as a result, they cannot carry a combat helicopter with weapons heavier than the 7,62-mm machine gun in the doors
        7. In principle, one can continue further, only it makes no sense.

        The series 22160, already under construction, "ate" two corvettes 20380 at the price, and these are ships of a completely different level.
        Six more is still the equivalent of two corvettes - so you want to spend the cost of the surface ship brigade on battle-inefficient troughs?

        Already now, the question arose in relation to these ships - what to do with them ?. It is impossible to use them for their intended purpose, and there is no sense, and partly simply illegal.
        They can’t carry out combat missions; upgrading them is pointless and expensive.

        This project is a real disaster for the Navy.
        1. 0
          22 January 2019 16: 49
          Focusing on rumors is not a good idea. In recent years, I do not remember that the lead ship of the project was quickly put into operation if it ruined the tests. They could have accepted without completing the entire program - like Belousova, for example. And then having tested it already in the ranks. But all the lead ships experienced a long time. Incidentally, rumors are hardly justified. By the way, soon the second should pass. wink
          1 and 2 - where does infa come from? What exactly is the discrepancy with military standards? How was the degree of survivability checked and in what way is it inferior, for example, to Karakurt?
          3. It would be useful, but for its tasks they could have considered it unnecessary. Although, of course, at least it was worth bending.
          4. You can put a special module - it was voiced.
          5. And what else needs to be set for his tasks? Volcanoes? Fort? request There is no need, but the price will increase.
          6 light ships of the second rank at the price of 2 heavier ships of the same rank - what's the problem? Not expensive. The tasks are different - different filling and cost.
          I remain in my opinion - another 6 for Pacific Fleet are very useful. At the very least, they will save our last Pacific Fleet Pacific Fleet from depleting resources in missions for which they are not adapted. With mileage 22160 problems are unlikely to be. I am sure that very quickly they will become one of the most used ships of our Navy.
          Of course, I would like to increase their armament, but this will increase the price. Not the fact that the MO is needed. request
          Well, of course there is trolling too. feel I love it when their haters have tantrums because someone likes these ships. wink
    3. +2
      22 January 2019 10: 07
      Quote: Per se.
      A good article makes you think.
      Exactly.
      I’ve been thinking about the title for about ten minutes.
      I always considered the task of the armed forces in peacetime to prepare for hostilities - war, God forbid!
      1. +1
        23 January 2019 14: 29
        Quote: iConst
        Always considered the task of the armed forces in peacetime to prepare for hostilities - war
        Everything is so, Konstantin, but, with the war, as with the disease, it is better to prevent it than to cure it. On how the fleet will be used in peacetime, in many respects depends, closer or further there will be the possibility of a big war. Otherwise, by and large, the fleet is always in business, for him, as for the border guards, there is no peacetime. In this it is necessary to separate various military conflicts, pressures with a show of force, a global nuclear war (God forbid). The fleet is used on events in Syria, used in the events of the 2008 of the year, and many more will be used elsewhere, this is the point.
  2. 0
    21 January 2019 08: 32
    Timokhin is trying to launder large NKs, but first, for all of the peacetime tasks listed, one ship is enough, and the Russian Federation will keep a couple of Kuzya Nakhimov very decent for 20 years, and secondly, all these tasks could be performed by 11356, and even more so a couple . A large number of NK is not needed from the word at all. Despite the urgent need for coast-based aviation, minesweepers and submarines.
    1. +3
      21 January 2019 09: 37
      Timokhin is trying to wash large NK,


      Need to send a missile boat to the shores of America, yes Vladimir? One boat all aircraft carriers and sink!
      1. 0
        21 January 2019 15: 12
        I didn’t write about a missile boat, you made it up yourself, do not distort Mr. Timokhin, be truthful.
        1. +1
          21 January 2019 17: 18
          The truth is that you do not understand what you are writing - and this has long been so.
          1. +2
            22 January 2019 10: 23
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            You do not understand what to writeиthose
            :)
    2. +3
      21 January 2019 11: 11
      all these tasks could be performed by one 11356


      Sure! After all, the commander of any American AUG, as soon as he learns that our frigate with as many as eight "Calibers" is in dangerously close proximity to him, will cowardly set his tail and retreat back into his Norfolk or San Diego there.
      True, I do not quite understand how our one frigate can counteract two AUGs, which are simultaneously suitable, for example, to Syria and Kamchatka. But Vladimir probably knows the answer to this question :))
      1. +1
        21 January 2019 13: 35
        Vladimir does not know the answer to this question, because he does not know about the question itself.
        Vladimir is special.
        1. -2
          21 January 2019 15: 21
          Alexander, yes, I’m not like everyone else, I stand out from the crowd, thank you, it means I’ve been noticed, then I’m representing something from myself ... but apparently you are going to discuss me, there are no arguments about peacetime tasks and the number of necessary for their solution ships are not able to lead? why did you surrender so quickly to the mercy of me the winner?
          1. +2
            21 January 2019 17: 19
            You stand out sharply in minus relative to the overall average level, and so much that your eyes hurt.

            But is it necessary to rejoice?
      2. -5
        21 January 2019 15: 16
        Yes, I know the answer to this question, for such a task a whole pair of ships of the third rank in the entire Navy is needed .... as I wrote in advance, read again, and about the actions and fears of the American admirals, they will have to fear even a missile boat, (and just a boat that went to wounds in the Persian Gulf) so that the task of peacetime is easily solved, but in the war and three armored personnel ships cannot ... they will be destroyed by Amer destroyers,
        1. +5
          21 January 2019 16: 24
          Vladimir, what if one of the frigates gets into the repair (as it is now, for example), and insidious enemies nevertheless move in from two directions?
          Admit that in this case you can not do without the third 11356.
          1. -3
            21 January 2019 16: 34
            yes there is a third and more pots of casatons for peacetime tasks more than enough
            1. +5
              21 January 2019 17: 06
              Vladimir, in this way you give the right to life to as many as five ships of the frigate class.
              But not earlier than this morning you claimed that
              all these tasks could be performed by one 11356

              I am sure that further discussions on this topic will lead you to the conclusion that five frigates may not be enough.
            2. +3
              21 January 2019 17: 20
              But wait, because part of the year the ship passes its course tasks, and before that it conducts combat training, and so far it will not be allowed to combat services.

              So there are three Gorshkovs, one at school, one under repair and one free!

              What to do?
              1. -6
                21 January 2019 22: 05
                Well, here we have come to a logical conclusion, thanks to my sensitive guidance))) ..... for peacetime tasks one ship of the frigate type will do, but in the fleet you need at least three of them in order for at least one to be always ready for execution peacetime tasks. Marine tasks can also be performed by karakurt. Three frigates on the ocean are already very new. and about the same number of 1155, and even a couple of cruisers are. All the narrow tasks of peacetime have something to do, even in abundance. new NKs of the first second rank are not needed.
                1. +2
                  22 January 2019 00: 19
                  But let’s say, any NATO ship can use weapons with excitement up to 5 points, and Karakurt - up to three. At the same time, on our hottest theater, in the Barents Sea, 4 often happens.

                  How does your ingenious mind suggest solving this problem?

                  The second point - Karakurt does not have enough range - the enemies can shoot at us from a distance that Karakurt simply can’t reach.

                  Well, there is no air defense on it, no anti-submarine weapons either. Well, how will they threaten us with submarines?

                  tell me how to be here)))))
                  1. -5
                    22 January 2019 08: 23
                    You, dear Alexander, have confused peacetime missions and combat missions, it is one thing to ensure presence, to scare, to stand on the fairway, and to fight another, for military operations you need submarines and aircraft, and most importantly missiles. Now, if kakrakurt strengthen four tactical nuclear submarines ..... then all the Americans scatter.
                    1. 0
                      22 January 2019 12: 39
                      The threat must be real, the article says. What is the threat of a deaf-mute frigate?
                      1. 0
                        22 January 2019 17: 38
                        and that 11356 is blindly deaf and dumb? don't offend him
                      2. +2
                        22 January 2019 23: 54
                        He has a range of detection of submarines less than the range of modern torpedoes about six times.

                        Who can you scare with such a ship? And what's scary about it? On the same "Orlan" the Americans will put half of the wing, and still he will be able to get their warrant with missiles, and the "Nakhimov" will have time to work out against ground targets, moreover, with dozens of missiles.
                        And the submarines will not do without loss, trying to get it.

                        A frigate, especially 11356, is just a bad joke.
                  2. +1
                    23 January 2019 00: 44
                    timokhin-aa - At the same time, on our hottest theater, in the Barents Sea ...

                    Yes, not only is it "not cold" there, but also at the Pacific Fleet .. - https://youtu.be/6lzamRI-ZMs
                    I would like three or four 22350, 3-4 pr. 11661-K (E) and 4 ICAPL 971M
  3. 0
    21 January 2019 08: 49
    The article is relevant, I never heard about the episode told here, very interesting! If someone from the members of the forum sends links to this kind of article, I will be grateful.
    1. 0
      21 January 2019 09: 12
      Quote: Sailor
      The article is relevant, I never heard about the episode told here, very interesting! If someone from the members of the forum sends links to this kind of article, I will be grateful.

      I would also read about the actions of SEAL in the Far East
      1. +2
        21 January 2019 09: 34
        Semyonov, the author of "Non-Tradition" mentioned the case with amerskoy mini-submarine near Vladivostok. She was missed. It is true that it was not his crew who screamed, some kind of Be-12.

        Bookmarks in the eighties and nineties were found in the Far East; my acquaintance in 1988 found an abandoned foreign scuba gear in Odessa, new and completely serviceable. In a cache near the shore.

        The head of the "Window" topic for radar detection of submarines in 1986 was attacked in Vladik with an attempt to seize documents on the topic, attributed to a foreign special group.

        In 1995 in the Northern Fleet, someone cut the breathing hoses of two PDSS fighters under water. Nearby at that time dangled "Maryatta", it was during some tests of new technology.

        In reality, there were such cases, but for obvious reasons, they are not written about in the newspapers. So, snippets of rumors.

        But Americans practice casting special forces into enemy countries, this is a fact. I remember the case when their seals in a pit in a forest in North Korea lived for three months, went for reconnaissance from there, at the beginning of 2000's, it seems. They have it.
        1. +2
          21 January 2019 17: 36
          "On the head of the" Window "topic for radar detection of submarines in 1986 there was an attack in Vladik with an attempt to seize documents on the topic"
          Research and development work on the topic "Window" - development of ground-based automated optoelectronic systems for monitoring outer space.
          1. 0
            21 January 2019 21: 01
            In the Navy under this code was another research.
    2. 0
      4 March 2019 13: 51
      If you are talking about the episode with "seals", really, I would really like to know more. Moreover, the author claims that the “seals” walked along our shores regularly.
  4. 0
    21 January 2019 09: 14
    Very interesting, relevant article .. written by a thinking person. And of course, no one canceled the old Man Mahan’s theory ....... The defense of their shores begins off the shores of the enemy.
    1. +1
      21 January 2019 13: 37
      Well, in general, Mahan in the nuclear age is slightly that - not that outdated, but requires some correction. There is no war, there is an exchange of threats. Although the goals are the same.
  5. 0
    21 January 2019 10: 57
    The forces of the Baltic Fleet took on escort the US Navy destroyers Gravely and Rorter, which entered the southern part of the Baltic Sea, and, in addition, Cook off the coast of Georgia, so the message of the article in a line ... Probably, they put something on the Pacific Fleet, but do not want to interfere with Abe in his negotiations on the return of the islands.
    1. 0
      21 January 2019 13: 37
      At the Pacific Fleet "Tributs" I followed the American.
      1. 0
        21 January 2019 14: 13
        Here (Pacific Fleet) I meant partners that they didn’t break Abe’s game (and so far there’s nothing to fix). And on the account of Mahan, I partially agree, but the meaning of the war at sea and the very purpose of the fleet have not changed ... And it seems to me that this interesting character John Lehman (which, if I am not mistaken, I learned from you in one of the articles), "Influence naval power on the history of the "ball table book.
        1. +1
          21 January 2019 17: 21
          I don’t know for Lehman, but in general it is necessary to familiarize yourself with the book for everyone who is interested in naval issues.
  6. +4
    21 January 2019 14: 38
    But it will often be the other way around. For example, minesweepers are vital during a war, but of little use during "force pressure" operations.

    As the experience of the USSR showed, in peacetime TSCs can ensure the safety of fishing in disputed economic zones, as well as escort ships in troubled waters.
    1. 0
      21 January 2019 17: 22
      A scare Americans fit? You have listed just the same BATTLE TASKS))))
  7. +5
    21 January 2019 15: 09
    For example, in order to "put pressure" on the enemy, we will use a destroyer or better a URO cruiser with cruise missiles. It is well suited for hitting a weak enemy, both for demonstrating strength and for displaying the flag. But for warfare near its shores, the Su-30СМ regiment would be much more useful
    Do not push your foreheads between these two types of weapons. In the event of a serious mess, a cruiser or destroyer without these Su-30s will have a lot of fun, even near their shores. Su-30 is a replacement for the RCA and RTOs in the near sea zone, the replacement is very effective, mobile and flexible, capable in closed seas like the Black or Baltic and arrange a spectacular demonstration, and drown if necessary. Instead of RTOs and RCAs, one must buy airplanes. But not instead of destroyers.
    It turned out that our “all-weather” fighter aviation, represented by the obsolete MIG-19 and MIG-21 fighters, is not able to withstand the American deck-based Phantoms and the Intruders attack aircraft.
    I read the material from the link. I’m certainly a couch general, but I have an objection. Air defense aircraft in the 80-ies did not have MiG-19 aircraft in service, and never had MiG-21 aircraft in commercial quantities. The basis of the air defense group in the Far East in the 80-ies is the Su-15TM, MiG-25, MiG-31. In my opinion there was one regiment on the MiG-23 on Iturup - the only regiment with front-line fighters in the Far East Air Defense, but this is not accurate. These aircraft successfully solved any problem in any weather, from the slaughter of rabid Korean Boeing to the crowding out of the RC-135 or SR-71. The author does not finish something.
    According to the situation with K-500. We are crucifying about covering our SSBNs, but what does the author of this material describe? A single K-500, not covered by OVR ships, not covered by submarines, not covered by aircraft, enters the database towards the US coast (!) And is immediately detected by the enemy. I'm at a loss. Conclusion SSBNs in theory somehow need to be provided. The author writes about the power of the Pacific Fleet, about the numerous 671 boats, about aviation - where is all this located at the time of deployment of the K-500? And why it goes in the 80 years to the coast of the USA - maybe I don’t understand something, but why does a boat with a missile system with a range of 7800 km go to the coast, when even in Washington it can shoot from the center of the Pacific Ocean, not to mention Los -Angles.
    1. +3
      21 January 2019 15: 58
      At the expense of MiG-23 it was 41 air defense regiments, in 83 it was transferred from Postovoi (SovGavan) to Iturup. and from there Mig 21.
    2. 0
      21 January 2019 17: 24
      As I wrote, Karev has inaccuracies in the story. But I take it as a souvenir - memory is an unreliable thing. There are other jambs there, and they were written about.

      But on the whole, events were quite taking place.

      Regarding boats off the coast - then they were sent there as an answer to the Pershing. To reduce flight time. There was such a moment.
  8. +2
    21 January 2019 16: 48
    It is unrealistic to protect such large territories as ours without aviation. The fleet alone cannot solve these problems - neither the number of ships nor their mobility will suffice. There is only one way out - to focus investments in research and development in key areas - air dominance fighters, anti-submarine aviation, drills in the first place.

    To build ships as profitable as possible - a lot of cheap. There are a lot of minesweepers, a dapple, and at least hunters for the pl — drive along their shore and sprinkle the adversary from the forehead.
    1. +2
      21 January 2019 17: 25
      This is true for a real war.
      And with a caveat - forces in the near sea zone cannot fight back if the enemy feels comfortable in the far. Therefore, a certain number of "charged" first ranks must be available for defense as well.
      1. 0
        21 January 2019 18: 18
        forces in the near sea zone cannot fight back if the enemy feels comfortable in the far


        Our problem as a whole is that we do not have tools to seize the initiative. And without initiative, achieving success in a modern war is problematic. The enemy can concentrate forces in the right direction, but we do not. Our first ranks will be ground in parts, and aviation at airfields with sudden strikes at low altitudes + cr. The only way out is to solve the problem of target designation in order to be able to strike first at enemy strike groups. And also have fighters capable of fighting on equal terms with the enemy + support for their drill. At sea, only our submarines have a chance of success or survival.

        That is, the priorities: 1) fighters 2) drills + drones + satellites, i.e. all that target designation can provide 3) pl (here, by the way, I would include Poseidon, this is a good way to combat aug - if the price for it is reasonable).
        1. -1
          21 January 2019 21: 15
          Poseidon is burning money in the stove and nothing more. There is no sense from him, even if he is such as they promise, which, incidentally, is not at all a fact.

          Submarines are detected from thousands of kilometers; in the USSR, a submerged submarine was first discovered from a satellite in the 70s. The USA has developed this topic to the "limit", and now it is banal to SEE submarines in the ocean.
          1. +1
            21 January 2019 22: 19
            In the event of a large-scale conflict, the satellites will actively go astray, it is unlikely that their contribution to the search for submarines will be significant, even if they can actually detect them under water.

            In their fortresses, with the support of submarine aviation, surface forces, submarines can certainly be effectively used. To contribute to the fight against the adversary's squad is to move it away from our fortresses. The offensive is already more difficult - but if the stirling is finished and there are normal torpedoes, then not everything is so bad. The Swedes in the exercises with pl. Gotland beat Los Angeles. Everything is possible.

            We know too little about Poseidon. Like a long-range torpedo - I like it. Even if we do not drown anyone, the enemy will be constrained by the fact of using such gizmos. As an element of syas - I do not see it.
            1. 0
              22 January 2019 07: 04
              Even if we do not drown anyone, the enemy will be constrained by the fact of using such gizmos.


              Will not, the antidote is already penny
              1. 0
                22 January 2019 15: 15
                It all depends on the application and design of this Poseidon. If he quietly dips to the aug on a water cannon, and even at a great depth ... The question is only in its sensory component - how will he identify the targets, in my opinion. It is also a small-sized goal.
          2. +1
            21 January 2019 22: 21
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            Submarines are detected from thousands of kilometers; in the USSR, a submerged submarine was first discovered from a satellite in the 70s. The USA has developed this topic to the "limit", and now it is banal to SEE submarines in the ocean.
            Even if this is the case, which I doubt (since in this case nothing would ever be lost in the ocean at all, because everything else is less secretive than the submarines), the problem is solved two times. The flight schedule of each of the American reconnaissance satellites over each point on the planet is known for a couple of years in advance))))
            1. 0
              22 January 2019 00: 20
              So they and BPA planes can do that.

              And there are hundreds of them.
              1. +1
                22 January 2019 07: 26
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                So they and BPA planes can do that.
                Don’t worry, they don’t know how. )))
                Stop counting radar as witchcraft. This is physics, it is the same for everyone. Even the Americans obey her (!). )))
                1. 0
                  22 January 2019 12: 40
                  So what am I talking about? The Americans tried - it turns out. The USSR tried - it also worked out!
                  But then, in our God-saving homeland, unscientific factors came into play, but the enemy drew up the scheme.
                  1. 0
                    22 January 2019 13: 09
                    Quote: timokhin-aa
                    but the enemy dopilil scheme.

                    Tales of the Vienna Woods)))
                    I already wrote in that article where you wrapped it all up. There are no methods of guaranteed detection by this "hump" of yours, and even more so by "compacted air" above the boat. The change in the relative permeability of the air supposedly compacted by the boat does not exceed the values ​​that any radar rejects as natural noise.
                    1. 0
                      22 January 2019 16: 10
                      There, under ten signs of unmasking, manifested both separately from each other, and jointly, depending on conditions, for example, from the point of excitement, etc.
      2. -2
        21 January 2019 19: 57
        There is no money for charged "first ranks" - the answer can and will be asymmetric. You are still hovering in the naval ideas of the last century ... Nowadays, floating steel masses of AUG and "first rank" are not needed if they can be taken out of the inner pools with cheap RC and MRK cruise missiles, paralyzed by the work of electronic warfare, etc.
        1. +3
          21 January 2019 21: 12
          These are fairy tales of the Vienna Woods - all these are your RTOs.

          And from any of the bays they will not get a carrier or a cruiser. The mosquito fleet is carried out by aviation at a time. The Iranians destroyed almost all of the Iraqi Navy in one light day in 1980 - that's the price of a mosquito fleet.

          A large ship is at least a powerful radar and a lot of anti-aircraft missiles, this is the possibility of collective defense against attacks from the air, this is anti-submarine weapons and a pair of PLO helicopters, this is a GAC, like the old Polynom, which from the Strait of Hormuz "shone through" the entire Persian Gulf, over the entire area and depth.
          This is some kind of armor.
          Nimitz 20 000 tons of Kevlar in constructive defense, Kuznetsov maintains progress or at least buoyancy, even if he gets four torpedoes in a row on one side - a full salvo of submarines.

          And RTOs are just a target.

          EW requires energy, electricity that needs to be generated; on small ships, the required capacities simply do not exist. And a small ship can suppress its own radar with its own interference, they don’t have enough power to break through the interference.

          In general, fairy tales are in a different place.
          1. -1
            22 January 2019 07: 22
            You did not pay attention to the fact that small ships can conduct hostilities under the cover of a really worthy coastal air defense shield, from the coastal zone, from the Caspian Sea, Volga, Ladoga, etc. They are protected much more reliably than any ship of the first rank in waters of the alien World Ocean. Well, the range of "Caliber" will now be up to 5000 km, that is, strategic. I really hope that all these are just flights of thought and idle speculations will never be realized by anyone. The navy is now an instrument of politics, but not an instrument of power, with the exception of strike nuclear submarines. The task of new types of weapons is not in their actual use, but in cooling too hot and ardent heads from the opposite side. This is the essence of the RF Military Doctrine - not to fight, but to prevent a war. From here it is worth dancing re-equipping the fleet with ships for specific practical, and not mythical tasks. For example, under the protection of the North Sea Route, the defense of the Far East from the claims of close "friends", the demonstration of the flag, protection from pirates, etc. And if you set grandiose tasks, you can only undermine the country's economy and in any case, not achieve the goal of superiority at sea. The only sensible approach, perfectly understood by the Russian leadership, is asymmetric responses to challenges, which has been demonstrated very successfully.
            1. +1
              22 January 2019 16: 12
              You did not pay attention to the fact that small ships can conduct hostilities under the cover of a really worthy coastal air defense shield, from the coastal zone, from the Caspian Sea, Volga, Ladoga, etc. They are protected much more reliably than any ship of the first rank in waters of the alien World Ocean. Well, the range of "Caliber" will now be up to 5000 km, that is, strategic.


              Caliber-NK, as it was 375 km, will remain so.

              From such a range, in order to reach the enemy at its potential deployment boundary, it will be necessary to pass in the direction of the enemy about 1000 km. Of which the order of 600-700 will be out of its air defense, but in the zone of control of foreign aviation. The consequences themselves can count.
        2. +4
          21 January 2019 21: 47
          Will it not be difficult for you to name at least one RTO, whose cruise missiles are capable of attacking an aircraft carrier at a distance exceeding the radius of action of its carrier-based aircraft?
          1. +3
            22 January 2019 07: 06
            Below the belt hit! laughing

            Usually from this they have in the Error OS. laughing laughing
            1. +4
              22 January 2019 07: 41
              Many are absolutely sure that this can be done by any “calibronos”, and at a distance of 1500-2000 km wink
              A specific Error occurs when it turns out that in the RCC version “Caliber” does not fly so far.
              1. +3
                22 January 2019 12: 42
                Yes, even if he flew, it does not change much. TsU exact where to get? How to achieve on-line correction of RCC course at a distance? How to provide resistance to electronic warfare? How to prevent interceptors from catching a slow missile 100 km from the target?

                Error.
                1. +3
                  22 January 2019 12: 57
                  Everything is right - these are questions for particularly stubborn supporters of the "asymmetric fleet", who are convinced that since officially the Caliber’s range is classified, it can be two, and even, as we see in the post above, five thousand kilometers)) )
                  1. +1
                    22 January 2019 13: 32
                    I started a mean male tear. One of the few fully adequate branches of dialogue on topvar in recent days. I am glad that the logic and knowledge of the materiel beyond the agitation has not yet died. Fiercely plus for both drinks
  9. 0
    21 January 2019 18: 56
    Regarding the bulk of the "Selfless". The ship was supposed to be put for overhaul and was delivered. So, there is really no need to feel sorry for him. All the same, two or three years of repair, with docking - it will stay in repair for a month more or less did not play a special role.
    1. +3
      21 January 2019 21: 13
      But there were two bulk that day wink
    2. 0
      22 January 2019 05: 09
      And the second TFR just after the overhaul came out. But after the bulk no longer saw the sea. Good tactics
      1. 0
        22 January 2019 19: 06
        The second was "fifty kopecks"; it had long been time to go to the Black River, in the Soviet Union they also knew how to count money, not a single new, running ship was involved.
  10. -2
    21 January 2019 19: 53
    The article leaves the impression of a "hodgepodge" of interesting facts from the past and ridiculous conclusions for the future, for example, to send ships with a landing party to Gibraltar! Sent, well? Ridiculous!
    1. +2
      21 January 2019 21: 05
      Isn't the US Navy destroyer in Peter the Great Gulf a laughing stock? And amerskoe exercises on "freedom of navigation" in the South China Sea? Also a laughing stock?

      When last year a yellow rag from Washington wrote about the fact that Severodvinsk was prowling off the coast of the United States and was not caught, the proceedings reached Congress, if anything. Although the newspaper did not provide evidence, and our Ministry of Defense refused to comment.

      This is not a laughing stock, these are serious things in fact.
      1. 0
        22 January 2019 21: 39
        All this small things - mutual injections, no more. Well, the time of huge fleets has passed irrevocably and in vain wasting the country's money on floating islands and their environment. What is one post-war conflict that would not have been resolved without the inclusion of the AUG? I do not see any. In Korea, force was still used this way when landing against a battery of 76-mm cannons ... in Vietnam, and in Iraq and Yugoslavia, everything could be decided without the participation of an aircraft carrier fleet. The time of the monsters is gone. now their role is only a demonstration of the flag. And the Russian Federation doesn’t even have economic reasons to send groups to foreign shores - they would protect their own. Therefore, building monsters is a disaster. In this competition, neither NATO nor the PRC can jump on. Russia should not go along this slippery path.
        1. 0
          22 January 2019 21: 43
          Russia this summer tore off another rocket attack against Syria by sending a fairly powerful connection to the Mediterranean Sea. To foreign shores, to the Syrian.
          AUG is a tool against ships, not shores.

          Well, etc.

          Do not like boats? Your right but this is why write?
          1. 0
            22 January 2019 22: 20
            I like the boats, I served in the Navy, but for all that I need to clearly understand the goals and objectives of the fleet and the country's capabilities.
            1. 0
              22 January 2019 23: 48
              Well, so am I about that.

              Well, if six months ago they were able to gather forces comparable to the American ones and prevent the third spit in our direction in Syria, then it’s probably worth remembering.

              Another thing is that the ships are running out of resource and it seems that they will not be able to restore it, so by 2025 we will have a mosquito fleet "on a priori basis."

              But that is just another matter ...
              1. +1
                23 January 2019 01: 26
                And the most annoying thing is that the USA, coming out and the INF Treaty, will make the construction of mosquito gunboats meaningless. How much money was spent on RTOs that could be spent on aviation and large ships ... We would know where to fall ... request
                1. +2
                  23 January 2019 12: 39
                  Yes, I think about it too. One 21361 is 9 yards. Them in a series of 12 pcs. 108 billion without inflation.
                  This is also 1 + 9 Karakurt in service and construction. More weaving.

                  This is an aircraft carrier for the Pacific Fleet. Or four "Ash".

                  Sad.
              2. -1
                23 January 2019 07: 55
                "Forces comparable to the American"? Don't joke, my friend, you don't need to joke evil like that. Not even funny. There are no bases, no basing points, the forces are only "comparable" ... let's just say purely formally, by the number of "heads" present, sorry about pennants ... It was not "assembled" for confrontation, believe me. They did not even stutter about the confrontation, there are smart people in the Naval Headquarters and the Kremlin. This action is political, not naval. Like a theatrical event ... So, I agree with you ... the small fleet remains. Small, but not mosquito. Remember the "rocket" trains what is their "charm"? In mobility, secrecy, solubility. Small rocket trains, mixing along rivers and inland waterways, are analogous to the same rocket trains. This is time. Second, container installations. But here there are difficulties of a different order, associated with the private ownership of the majority of the fleet, but this can be surmounted by the creation of a kind of analogue of Dobroflot. This is two. Balanced fleets are needed for the North and Far East. But the fleets are clearly calculated according to the Military Doctrine, without unnecessary gigantomania, adjusted for the conditions of service and habitation of the crews + naval aviation + marines. It is under the North and Far East. And their main task is not an attack on an incomprehensible enemy, but a very definite defense of the lines from any enemy. Your article raised important questions, but alas, did not give clear answers to them. A discussion on VO is a discussion of an article, not an author or commentators. Therefore, you should not be embittered in vain and do not try to cling to the thigh of an opponent who does not agree with you about something. Good luck!
                1. 0
                  23 January 2019 12: 48
                  "Forces comparable to the American"? Don't joke, my friend, you don't need to joke evil like that. Not even funny. There are no bases, no basing points, the forces are "comparable" only ... let's just say purely formally, by the number of "heads" present, sorry for pennants


                  For a short clash, no other would be required. In addition, we are not at war with the Amer, we crush each other psychologically demonstrating strength. It is quite a success.

                  Remember the "rocket" trains, what is their "charm"?


                  What is it? With the fact that they are tied to the rails? In the fact that back in 90-amerskoy satellite intelligence led the selection of locomotives for thermal radiation of the engine (if there are few wagons, and the engines are hot or standard wagons, and there are more locomotives than usual)?
                  Or maybe the fact that his route length on combat patrol does not allow him to be protected from aviation? Or is it that the entire length of the railway is not to cover the path from the saboteurs?
                  What is the beauty of something?

                  Once again - super-weapons do not exist and can not be invented.

                  Your article raised important questions, but alas, did not give clear answers to them.


                  Not to give a clear answer until our authorities have announced their political goals in the world for twenty years. At least in the usual avian language of our diplomats. Fleet is politics, it cannot exist just like that.

                  As for your "balanced fleet", try to calculate its composition, starting from the scenario of some kind of limited war in a limited northern theater of operations. A surprise awaits you.
                  1. 0
                    24 January 2019 00: 52
                    Who in their right mind would reveal their plans for twenty years? To count, you need to have complete information about the "calculated" and planned, this time. Having information about who to conflict with is two. You nevertheless correctly admitted that there was no naval or other conflict, and God forbid it is foreseen, so why throw Garod's money down the drain? These are three. For a "short clash" !!! Well, you also learned. What does it mean? Briefly threw rockets, fired, sank each other shortly and politely waving their veils on their hats apart? .... Good luck!
                    1. 0
                      26 January 2019 00: 11
                      For a "short clash" !!! Well, you also learned. What does it mean?


                      Like the Britons with the Argentines on the Falklands
                      Like the Americans with the Libyans in Sirte Bay
                      Like the Americans with Iranians in Pers. Bay, during Pryer Mantis.
                      Learn the story, it is useful.
                      1. 0
                        26 January 2019 07: 28
                        Learn history, my dear, this is all "slapping midges", no more, but in what delirium you, dear, imagine a "short clash" of warships of the great nuclear powers? Any ships. How will it end, eh?
              3. +1
                25 January 2019 23: 12
                By 2025, we will have at least 4 fresh Gorshkov (16 UVPs each) and at least 4 more Gorshkov + (24 UVPs each) in the next completion, but rather these are already in service or on testing. And a modernized Orlan with 80 UVP. And the repaired "Moscow" will somehow be repaired in 5-6 years. And "Peter the Great" repair / modernization will be completed.

                The motor curse ends. The first gas turbines have already gone to the customer, the gearboxes have been tightened in the next couple of years (these are not turbines in complexity), Kolomna diesel engines are being tested and preparing for the series. A simple extrapolation shows that by 2025 everything may not look so sad anymore.
                ... If we of course survive to this bright time and if we have it.
                1. 0
                  26 January 2019 00: 22
                  By 2025, we will have a minimum of 4 fresh Gorshkov (for 16 UVP)


                  Right.

                  and at least another 4 Gorshkov + (for 24 CIP) in the nearest completion,


                  Wrong.

                  And the upgraded Orlan with 80 UVP


                  It's great, but another Orlan will go for repairs. By the number of ships we won’t win here, although we’ll win on strike power, but on condition that everything works on Nakhimov. What is not a fact.

                  And the repaired "Moscow" will somehow be repaired in 5-6 years.


                  Remember how much repaired Ustinov? But the Varyag is also on the verge.

                  And "Peter the Great" repair / modernization will be completed.


                  Do not guess. The fleet has a nasty habit of rewriting TTZ already in the process of repair or construction. Nakhimov stood in the factory with 1999, now 2019 and until readiness there as before China with cancer.

                  Motor curse ends. The first gas turbines have already gone to the customer, the gearbox in the next couple of years will tighten (these are not turbines in complexity)


                  Don't say gop. In fact, gearboxes turned out to be more difficult for us than turbines. Let's see how much the problem will be solved, I would not be so optimistic.

                  A simple extrapolation shows that by 2025, everything might not look so sad anymore.


                  Minus Varyag, minus Peter, Moscow will still be under repair, Kuznetsov is questionable, half of the BOD will have risen by that time,

                  My opinion is that Nakhimov will be on the move to 2025, three or four 1155 BOD, one 956 destroyer, 12 20380 corvettes, one 1135 Petrel, 3 11356 frigate, and 4 debris.
                  20386 in the amount of one unit will be launched, but not yet surrendered.
                  Kuznetsov is questionable, 22350М will be built in some quantity, but not in the number of 4 units, but rather less, probably one head. Plus, Fearless will be on the move in the Baltic, but so to speak, with problems.
                  The rest will rot in ship repair, or cut.

                  Plus RTOs are different and about a dozen IPC 1124.
                  Some 12700 minesweepers, plus old men, mostly useless.
                  This will be our entire surface fleet.

                  For comparison, the Chinese launch one 054A frigate approximately every four months!
                  1. 0
                    26 January 2019 01: 00
                    A contract for 2 more Gorshkov was signed at the end of last year (except for the 2 that are in completion), there are an option for two more frigates, and perhaps this year a contract. They will be built according to the previous scheme, except that the UVP will be 24, and not 16 - the minimum changes to the project, this is not 22 350M - this is 22350+ (if I may say so.
                    With the appearance of 22350M, not everything is clear yet, they call a displacement from 6500 to 8000 tons. But by 2025 at least 4 pcs. will be under construction. And the construction time will be quite decent - this is a series, when everything is adjusted. All the bumps were stuffed on the first 2 - 4, cooperation will be established. Air defense problems have been resolved. Problems with the power plant are being solved (solved in the main part - turbines). The gearboxes are not ready because of a young "effective manager" who is not very quick on orders and an owner who is no longer a manager or even an owner. The reducer will be.

                    If “Moscow” can be put on the move and transferred under its own power to repair - all this should happen this summer, then it is under repair for 5 years. Moreover, it gets under repair after "Ustinov" - that is, experience has been accumulated in repairs of this particular type, cooperation has been established. It is easier than the first time, which means if not faster, then not longer.

                    The problem with "Nakhimov" is that since 1999 it has been in a sludge. Then the terms of reference and the modernization project were approved for a long time. Then hard work on a unique, but stagnant ship ... with a bunch of changes in the design.
                    But this will not happen with Petya - the project has been approved and tested on the sistership, many operations have been worked out and are familiar ... He is alive and on the go. He’s just younger than his age ... It will be easier with him and therefore faster.

                    The fleet's shipbuilding program, adopted in 2009, was reasonable and quite balanced, but proceeded from the consideration of cooperation with Ukrainian enterprises ... and air defense promises.
                    At the moment, the shipyards have been modernized, "Polyment-Redut" is ready and put into service, the turbines and diesel engines have gone ... This is what my cautious optimism is based on.
                    1. 0
                      26 January 2019 16: 02
                      I would wait for the Star to start at least a year on the gearbox.
                      As for Peter the Great, there will be a completely different modernization project, with new "bumps". And the habit of changing the TTZ on the go has not been eliminated.
                      And no money is promised for new ships, so to speak.

                      In general, I still look gloomily on things.
                      1. 0
                        26 January 2019 17: 35
                        If they began to allocate money for laying the BOOK of NEW frigates 22350, then the reducers will definitely be there - the Star is now under control and production is expanding there.
                        So, the 2025 - 6 units will already be in the ranks of 8 that you have designated, and some will be completed.
                        I'm more worried about the flooded floating dock. Without it, major ship repairs will stall. And this is the fate of Moscow, Varyag, and even Peter and Kuzya. The very circumstances of the "accident" sharply smell of sabotage. And similar actions may be repeated - we will not be allowed to calmly build a fleet. It is in this aspect that everything is really gloomy ...
                        It also worries me that after a series of 8 pieces. frigates 22350, 22350M destroyers will most likely go into the series. But there remains a niche of frigates themselves, which need at least 24 for three fleets, and preferably 30 to 32.
                        It would be nice to look at the Chinese, quite successful 054 project, on a purely diesel engine. And to depict something similar, taking as a basis the power plant on two Kolomna diesel pairs (4 diesel engines of 10 l / s, two per shaft). 000 UVP, air defense missile systems to choose from (Polyment-Redut, Shtil, Pantsyr-M), the best possible GAK, a helicopter - you will get a completely budget frigate not only as a universal combat ship, but also as an PLO ship (if you have at least 16 missiles in ammunition) torpedoes "Caliber"). At the price it will come out slightly more expensive than modern corvettes, which suffer from a lack of internal volumes, seaworthiness, ammunition and, as a result, are limited in the necessary combat capabilities. Instead of these corvettes, it would be worthwhile to build the aforementioned frigates in the future. They are more useful both in the near zone and in the far - just change the missiles in the UVP depending on the task.
                      2. 0
                        26 January 2019 18: 39
                        If money began to be allocated for the bookmark of the new 22350 frigates, then the gearbox will definitely be


                        Is not a fact. On the same diesel she was given the money, and where are they? Star sharpens gear for two years. That's all. And the Star-Reducer did not seem to pass under Sinara.

                        There in general, frankly, it is not clear what will happen.

                        So, the 2025 - 6 units will already be in the ranks of 8 that you have designated, and some will be completed.


                        Decisions on new 22350 yet, if that. Moreover, there are rumors that they will add a pair of UCSCs and this is a total repartition of the project, and given the tight layout of the base 22350, it’s not known how it will end.

                        It would be nice to have a look at the Chinese, quite successful 054 project, on a pure diesel course. And to depict something similar, based on the GEM on two Kolomna diesel pairs (4 diesel according to 10 000 l \ s, two per shaft). 16 UVP, ZRK to choose from (Polyment-Redut, Calm, Pantsyr-M)


                        054 is purely diesel. But the fact is that the Kolomna D49 diesel engines will not stretch such a ship, it needs a power plant of 39-42 thousand hp. We need to wait for Kolomna to finish the 16th series, and not 500SD20, but 500SDXNUMX, which is not even in the models yet. Four "twenty" is the minimum for a frigate.

                        Or it is necessary to stir up the compound, remove excess gas in a mini-gas turbine engine, take a parallel stream to the boiler, recover the waste gas from the gas turbine engine, heat the steam and supply steam to the steam turbine, rotate it for ten years minimum.

                        Or another option - a sharp-chinned hull optimized for speed, and a six-engine three-shaft power plant on the D49. But this is all perversion will be like the five engines in "Sherman".

                        Well, yes, do not interfere with armor and calm or redoubt. Polyment Redut will deduce the price tag of a frigate into space from any GEM.

                        In short, not so simple.
                      3. 0
                        26 January 2019 20: 34
                        About the air defense system to choose from, I meant that for the sake of budget there is "Calm" or two "Pantsyr-M" (on the bow and behind / above the hangar), and "Polyment-Redut" is for gourmets ...
                        I just had a diesel engine 20SD500, there was a message that they were going to drive them for testing. He hoped that while the project was being prepared, he would just be in time. In total, four units will give the desired 40 l / s. (By the way 000 in the amount of 054 l \ s has).
                        But the doublet of the gas and steam turbines - this is not for frigates - the dimensions will not allow. Destroyer, UDC, cruiser ...
                        The fact is that for solving anti-submarine defense, modern corvettes are somehow not very armed - they are in an unequal position with submarines, those have long-range torpedoes, and the corvette has a package. It’s just that when they were designed, the Caliber-PL wasn’t there yet, and the Waterfall started too loud ... In the corvette's displacement, a balanced submarine ship with missile-torpedoes does not work - both expensive and inferior. Frigate - just right, but should be quite budget. Hence the proposal of a diesel frigate with a displacement of 4000 - 4500 tons, and always with 16 UVP, otherwise you will have to choose between Caliber-PL and drums - for self-defense (in the case of 8 UVP), and so 8 Caliber-PL, and 8 drums - full balance and versatility. Both for the far and near zones.
                      4. 0
                        26 January 2019 21: 55
                        The 50th Kolomna is in fact foreign - ours cannot make a block to them, not a knee, nor a cylinder head, everything is done in Europe, our construction is only, the share of purely imported components, including American ones, is huge.

                        Accelerated incomplete localization alone takes from three to five years. Then an experimental series, improvements, preparation for small-scale production, get rid of childhood diseases, and only then a series. I do not argue, the 500th will change everything greatly for the better, but it will not be tomorrow.

                        But the doublet of gas and steam turbines - this is not for frigates - dimensions will not allow.


                        You do not confuse marching GTE with Compound. Here in the picture is the compound GTE, under the number 4.

                        See how small he is?

                        Some of the gases from the turbocharger go there, part to the heat-insulated pipe, gases are fed into it after the compound, and also from other diesel engines. Then the gases go through the pipe to the boiler, and a small one, they heat steam, and he turns this or that two turbines (to be considered):

                        That is, all this is very compact. The turbine turns the generator, the current goes to high-speed ED, which work on a common gearbox with a diesel engine.

                        That's all.

                        Approximately increase in power from each burned liter of 15-20% fuel. According to some estimates - up to 30.

                        Ref 25300 hp on 054.

                        We need UKKS, and a couple of helicopters instead of one. This will increase the displacement compared to the 054, the draft, the contours of the underwater part of the hull and, as a result, with the same power, will slow down, and very much.

                        I'm not ready to say what kind of power plant will be needed, but, as it seems to me now, 25 000 hp not enough and need more.
                      5. 0
                        26 January 2019 23: 14
                        I brought the power of 054 to 25300 l / s at 3500 - 4000 tons for reference .- the displacement I proposed is 4000 - 4500, and the expected power from 4 Kolomna diesel engines is 40 000 l / s. In my opinion, it will be enough with a margin, even if the real power in the aggregate is about 35 l / s.
                        Two helicopters can never be locked onto such a frigate - this can already be offered for the 22350M. But there is an alternative:
                        - In case of aerial reconnaissance, in addition to a helicopter, have a pair of Orlan unmanned aerial vehicles, they are already worth two even on RTOs, there is enough space. The main load on reconnaissance will be on them, and the search for submarines will be on a helicopter.
                        - In the case of anti-submarine specialization of the frigate (and such tasks will not always be possible), it is possible to provide for the release through the aft ramp of a pilotless boat with a towed or submersible GAS. Now there are no such people, but until a new frigate appears, it may appear. In any case, for the search for mines such boats already have some where. But the amer and autonomous drone - the hunter on the submarine is tested. If such appears in the arsenal of the frigate, then they will be able to build an active triangle: ship - helicopter - boat.

                        And the compound you have presented, which we do not have yet and will not soon ... leave for later. We now need classic turbines and diesel engines. Reliable, easy to use and in commercial quantities, and leave the exotic for later.

                        By the way, over the past year in the Chinese (and ours) press there was information that officers of the Pacific Fleet frequented Chinese shipyards for a long time looking at frigates 054, which they liked. The Chinese offered to build up to 20 buildings of such frigates, for our completion, as well as wooed their new UDC with the readiness to build 2 - 4 pieces. And all this for 8 - 9 years. In our press there was information that we can talk only about 8 frigates.
                        Here from such a replenishment, but in our realities, I would not refuse (eight frigates). And even from their UDC. Moreover, all this is not expensive and very fast.
                  2. 0
                    26 January 2019 07: 36
                    You contradict yourself - the Chinese can and will let you go four in a month, Russia cannot, and there is no need to strain yourself. And the Chinese, no matter how much they let something down, will still lag behind, but these are their Chinese problems. And if Russia again harnesses "parity", pennant for pennant ... it's an empty matter. Here is an example: could Russia or in principle be able to defend Venezuela now? No. As well as in its time the USSR did not grind its teeth, and did not even try to defend Grenada, and Aden is not very good either ... And a lot of other things, without quite reasonably running into "short skirmishes" ... You, dear , the theorist of the Navy, but, forgive me generously, I'm not sure that more than a tourist has been on a warship.
                    1. 0
                      26 January 2019 16: 17
                      You don’t not attribute what I didn’t write, the Chinese are not an example of what we also need, it is an example of what happens when shipbuilding is approached with the mind, not like us.
                      We can well protect Venezuela, for this we don’t need the Navy and not the VKS, but a kick in one place with a mustache leader, make him rule the country properly, and if we deploy troops somewhere, then a little in Cuba and not in Venezuela itself .
                      1. 0
                        27 January 2019 00: 57
                        Sorry, but read your lines, my dear, "The Chinese are not an example of what we should also, this is an example of what happens when shipbuilding is approached with the mind, and not like us." If they fit wisely, and not like “we” (I don’t know who you mean “we”) "- then this sounds like an example to follow. Isn't it? And about the" defense of Venezuela "so it seems like your name is not Bounaparte? The USSR, with its truly ocean-going powerful fleet, with its base in Cuba, could not do anything in Grenada, but can you defend Venezuela? I am already silent, what will you do after the "defense" ... bread, meat, wine, potatoes to drive there So to feed all the suffering and thirsty? So the Russian state now has steamboats, if there is, then there is only one visibility, and how can they be removed from the Syrian express? Buy rusty troughs from Turkey again? You shouldn't be that way. In the first articles there was a lot of controversial, but interesting, but now they are completely heresy.
  11. 0
    21 January 2019 19: 57
    I hardly got through this stream of consciousness. What does the author suggest? build a fleet for peacetime, because there will be no global war, and if there is, a fleet is not needed in it? For demonstrations and presence, you can build ships on the basis of dry cargo ships with a resource of 100 years and weapons in the form of weapons models with scary names and terrible (in words) characteristics. laughing
    1. 0
      26 January 2019 07: 39
      Most likely, in the heat of a polemic with himself, the author lost the thread of the story. In general, I came to about the same conclusion as you. Of course, the Russian Fleet is needed, we need very balanced solutions, asymmetric, and not just quantitative braces and a waste of money. I think that in the Moscow State Art School and the Kremlin they understand this very well.
  12. +1
    21 January 2019 23: 06
    "Fires in the barracks at the Soviet radio interception points on the island of Iturup and in the village of Provideniya." - I can clearly see a SEAL fighter sneaking among the stones with a can of kerosene. "Hey !!! You're standing! Are you who - Biar or American?"
    "Yes, amy white bear!"
    Private Godunov lit a Belomor and moved on.
    John Smith exhaled.
    1. -1
      22 January 2019 00: 21
      It is not served.
    2. +1
      22 January 2019 22: 58
      And how did the fires in the barracks interfere with the radio interception? Or were the soldiers so upset by the burnt demobilization uniform that they could not turn the pens on the direction finders?
      1. 0
        22 January 2019 23: 51
        I was not specifically at those posts, but at other Chukchi sites, for example, in military units in Nagorny, where I had to go, everything was done in the same building - both the barracks and everything else. Perhaps this is the case.
        Well, the fire in any case distracted people, and Karev could have made a mess of it with the barracks, the matter is long-standing.
  13. +1
    22 January 2019 00: 59
    From this angle, you need to think about the fleet (perhaps even in the first place).
    Here are just "more careful" arguments.
    1. +1
      22 January 2019 07: 07
      Everything has its place. This is not an official doctrinal document.
      1. +1
        22 January 2019 09: 46
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        This is not an official doctrinal document.
        Yes?
        Is there an official one? And where can I find it?
        1. -1
          22 January 2019 12: 44
          We have three of them - Military Doctrine, Maritime Policy and the Fundamentals of Naval Policy.
          They "do not fight" with each other, de facto they are not fulfilled.

          There are also closed docks, for example, the Shipbuilding Program-2050, and "smaller" ones, but they are not online.
          1. +2
            22 January 2019 15: 59
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            We have three of them - Military Doctrine, Maritime Policy and the Fundamentals of Naval Policy.
            They "do not fight" with each other, de facto they are not fulfilled.

            There are also closed docks, for example, the Shipbuilding Program-2050, and "smaller" ones, but they are not online.

            If you are talking about an abstract document from 10 years, then what is its value without specifics?
            The Americans clearly say that these are our enemies (in plain text) and we will fight them by all means available. This is a practical definition of the goals of their doctrine.

            Our doctrine does not have the word enemy or adversary. From the word "absolutely".
            Abstraction, in principle, is not bad, but value without concretization is zero.

            From here - there are no clearly set goals and miscalculations of the situation, and this can be seen from foreign policy - continuous reflection, moreover, often with the reaction of the universal brake. Syria is an example. Waited, waited, waited, waited. Thought - will resolve. And when Assad came almost full of Cuban troops - they were blown up, but no matter how much less - the loss of BV. Now you need to make tenfold efforts.

            And there are many such examples.

            This bacchanalia with armaments is a stopitsot of different platforms of armored rattles - armata, boomerangs ... And at the exit? Big order for seventy two!

            They talk about a network centric, but judging by the texts no one understands what it is. But Americans understand and do. This is very complicated and expensive crap. It is still a long way to implementation, but if it works, then an ordinary army with any weapon in a collision with them will receive a quick trooper. Bo situational awareness drives.
            1. 0
              22 January 2019 16: 14
              Well, I still think that we have documents with the enemy, but they are secret.

              The network-centric in a primitive, but quite working version of the run-in VKS in Syria. So technically we can do this, although for the Navy these things are more complicated by an order of magnitude.

              The fact that there is no goal You are right. I am planning an article about this.
  14. -1
    23 January 2019 09: 23
    Timokhin, as usual, in his repertoire. Rumors and gossip. Someone saw there, someone was telling, etc. etc. No facts and specifics. Like a woman in the market.
    1. 0
      23 January 2019 12: 49
      That is, Rear Admiral Karev is not your authority? Well, let's put American materials on the same event.
      1. 0
        25 January 2019 06: 25
        Karev? No, not a strong authority. If a person once lied, or, or indicated not entirely reliable information, then in other cases, he can distort the facts. So no, not credibility, despite being a scout.
        1. 0
          26 January 2019 00: 41
          This is what you have! I envy!

          Well, let me give you an American article on sabzh give, from the participant on their part, you want?

          Cross-checking data is a great thing!

          By the way, here's a picture for you from those teachings, when it was all over. Midway on the left, Enterprise on the right. All ships AUS in the frame did not hit.

  15. 0
    25 January 2019 18: 45
    Timokhin, there are no "different" tasks. There are priorities. And our main priority is not to be "de-democratized" like the natives of North America. Puffing up the cheeks in the Strait of Aden with "fighting piracy" is NOT a priority. As well as the "over-the-horizon landing" in Madagascar.
    1. -1
      26 January 2019 00: 38
      Boris, I know that you are a man, vice versa. You do not understand anything, and you know nothing about anything, you have no opinion of your own, but at the same time you think you have it, etc.

      We remind you that in 1991, it was not so strong, quite a bit was not enough to complete an out.

      As for peacetime tasks, for example, nuclear deterrence is a peacetime task. CBG on the way of Americans in the Mediterranean, this summer - the task of peacetime. Maneuvers Avakyantsa all the forces in the Strait of Laperuz this year - the task of peacetime, do not forget that the Japanese have three times more power in theater and territorial claims. And here is Madagascar?

      Puffing up the cheeks in the Strait of Aden with "fighting piracy" is NOT a priority.


      Well, and you for 22160 podtplivali. Do you remember your comments on a subject?

      Here you have everything - so here:

      1. Inflating the cheeks in the Gulf of Aden is not necessary.
      2. But the ship for this inflation is needed, because it is modular!
      3. And the fact that it is structurally unsuitable for inflation of the cheeks in the Gulf of Aden is good and correct.
      4. After all, someday they will put modules with something on it.

      I would be scared to live with such a head. laughing Maybe it's some kind of virus, eh?
      1. -1
        26 January 2019 01: 58
        Timokhin, if you are not able to understand me, these are generally your problems. So do not judge me by yourself please.
        All serious military-political tasks accomplished by the armed forces are either directly wartime tasks or preparation for solving wartime problems. And it is precisely the THREAT to the fulfillment of the MILITARY TIME TASK that makes it possible to maintain peace. If the armed forces (and the fleet as part of them) cannot fulfill the tasks of wartime, then they also cannot fulfill military-political tasks in peacetime. And therefore, preparing the armed forces (and the fleet as part of it) for peacetime tasks, as you suggest, is nonsense.

        I remind you that we were democratized in the year 1991

        Nobody democratized us in 1991 - all by ourselves. But shifting your mistakes to an evil beech is a sign of infantilism wink

        About 22160
        The fact that you read only the first phrase from the post is your problem. I argued in my dispute and continue to assert: 22160 was not created to patrol the Strait of Aden, whatever the admirals say. For the purposes and tasks that need to be addressed to the fleet for which this ship was created (Black Sea if that), 22160 is suitable under one condition: if its seaworthiness is sufficient for helicopter use in the theater of operations (Black Sea and Caspian). As a search and rescue vessel for the fleet 22160 an ALREADY suitable ship. As a ship for special operations on the Black Sea and Caspian TVD 22160 an ALREADY suitable ship. Like a landing ship 22160 ALREADY a suitable ship. I note the tasks listed NOW for the Black Sea Fleet - the most relevant. Turkey is NOW no problem. The problem is Ukraine.