Offensive or defense? There are enough resources for one thing.

112
In the sea, two lines of defense, one passes through the bases of the enemy, the second - through your own bases.
Winston Churchill.

The naval superiority of a superpower requires offensive operations carried out in the most harmful way for the enemy.
John Lehman





Nuclear submarine project 949 and BOD project 1155. These forces can both advance and defend.


The battle of the shield and the sword is more relevant than ever in matters of naval construction. Since the strength of the fleets ceased to be reduced to the number of muzzle-loading guns aboard wooden ships, the division of resources allocated to the fleet between the defensive and offensive forces and assets has become a serious "headache" for all who made fundamental decisions. Build destroyers or battleships? Ocean cruisers or small submarines? Shore-based attack aircraft or deck carrier aircraft aviation?

Offensive or defense? There are enough resources for one thing.

Small anti-submarine ship project 1124M. Designed for defense


This is a really difficult choice - it is a choice, because it is impossible to have both defensive and offensive forces at the same time. No economy can handle this. There are many examples. How many US antisubmarine corvettes? Not at all. And minesweepers? Eleven or something like that. According to the plans of the US Navy, when mine control modules for the LCS ships finally appear, the fleet will buy eight sets on the Atlantic and Pacific theaters. This is practically zero.

True, mine equipment is now installed on existing ships - for example, on the destroyers Arly Burk. But the destroyers upgraded in this way are few, and with the mine preparation of the crews everything is not going smoothly, in fact, the Berks are fully prepared only for the air defense tasks of the ship formations, some ships can still intercept ballistic missiles, there are problems with the rest.

В stories There is an example of a country that tried to have everything - both forces for attack and forces for defense. It was the USSR.

The Soviet Navy had enormous coastal forces - alternating torpedo and missile boats, small missile and anti-submarine ships, small landing ships, diesel submarines of relatively small displacement, base anti-submarine helicopters Mi-14, amphibious aircraft. There were coastal troops with a large number of missiles on a car chassis. There was one more thing - a huge, hundreds of cars, marine missile-carrying aircraft. All this cost absolutely fantastic money, especially MRA - hundreds of the world's best bombers, armed with the world's best heavy missiles and guided by the world's best naval pilots. It was a very expensive pleasure, and in many respects are right those who believe that the MPA cost approximately corresponded to the carrier the fleet. But it was coastal weapon nevertheless, the forces by which the coast could be defended from enemy ships. Defensive tool, not offensive.

However, the same USSR Navy had something else - nuclear missile submarines, large diesel missile submarines capable of operating in the open ocean, 68-bis artillery cruisers, 58 missile cruisers, 61, 1134 missile cruisers (in fact, anti-submarine cruisers, no matter how it sounds strange), 1134B, anti-submarine helicopter carriers of the 1123 project and a whole brood of destroyers of the 30 project, and later BOD of the 61 project.

Some time later, more advanced ships appeared - the TFR of the 1135 project, the 1143 aircraft carrying cruisers, with ship planes, the destroyers of the 956 project, the BNC of the 1155 project ...

The list can be continued for a long time, there will be more and more sophisticated missile submarines, and the “long arm of the MRA” that appeared “out of date” 80 - missile-carrying Tu-95K-22, rather numerous basic anti-submarine aviation and “under the curtain” of existence The USSR is a fully-fledged aircraft carrier, of which only one could build for itself. The second, as you know, now serves in the PLA Navy, and the third is cut at the readiness stage in 15%.

And the USSR could not stand it. No, of course he could not stand the five types of the Armed Forces (SV, Air Force, Navy, Strategic Rocket Forces, Air Defense), and sixty-four thousand tanks in the ranks, and in general of the army, numerically sufficient for the simultaneous conquest of NATO and China, and the war against the whole world in Afghanistan, and inefficiently managed and therefore continuously stagnating economy. But the gigantic expenses for the fleet also made themselves felt.

Partly the desire of the USSR to grasp the immensity was understandable. Coastal forces lacking a “long arm” are vulnerable to a blow from the sea. For example, we have a naval strike group of MRK, which, however, do not leave the zone of action of coastal aviation, in order not to be killed by a small number of enemy aircraft. But what prevents the enemy to lift into the air from aircraft carriers large aviation forces, and at low altitude, with outboard fuel tanks (and refueling on the way back) to throw them into the attack against our IRAs? Our interceptors? But the air force on duty will not be large a priori, and the attacker will have numerical superiority, which means that the interceptors and the “insurers” of their interceptors will be destroyed, and when the main forces will be raised to the place of slaughter, from the enemy already and the trace cools down. Literally. Powerful forces in the far sea zone in theory give combat stability to coastal forces. However, at present, various types of reconnaissance and basic strike aircraft as a whole make it possible to prevent the enemy from quietly attacking even from the DMZ.

Anyway, the Soviet economy did not endure all this.

In contrast to the Soviet Union, the Americans did not even consider for themselves the possibility of building defensive naval forces. Admiral Zumvalt managed to "pierce" the construction of only six missile boats - and this despite the fact that they had to operate near the territorial waters of the Warsaw bloc countries, that is, the defensive means were purely nominal. But it did not work ...

The Americans understood that it was impossible to have everything. Must choose.

For countries whose budget is limited, the more you need to choose. Russia is one of those countries.

I must say that in fact, the economy of the Russian Federation allows you to build a fairly strong fleet. But the problem is that, firstly, we need to finance the army and the air force, and secondly, we have four fleets, one more fleet, and in most cases, to ensure that in each direction we cannot be stronger than the potential adversary, and maneuver by forces and means between the theaters is almost completely excluded, minus naval aviation. This makes the choice between defense and offensive even more difficult.

But maybe things are not so bad? Maybe it is still possible to provide full-fledged defensive forces, and some opportunities to perform tasks in the far sea zone (off the coast of Syria, for example, if we try to counteract there) at the same time?

Russia has eighteen major major naval bases. In theory, each of them needs anti-mine forces. This means by a brigade of six minesweepers for each naval base. It is necessary, however, to protect the ships leaving the bases from ambushes of submarines. And again it is necessary to have dozens of some kind of anti-raid corvettes, functional analogues of small anti-submarine ships of the Soviet era. But the enemy can attack the coast with cruise missiles. So, we need coastal strike aviation, from regiment to division to fleet. For example, a division to the Northern Fleet, a division to the Pacific and a regiment to the Baltic and the Black Sea. And more submarines.

And here the problems begin. Two divisions and two regiments of airplanes is the equivalent of a naval aviation sufficient to recruit four large aircraft carriers, approximately seventy thousand tons each. A couple of hundreds of small warships of all classes (minesweepers, anti-submarine corvettes, small landing ships) are comparable in number to the ocean fleet.

The crew of the modern PLO corvette may be within the 60-80 person. At first glance, this is the equivalent of one fourth destroyer. But the commander of this ship is a fully-fledged commander of the ship. This is a piece of "goods", which can not be much a priori. It is "equivalent" to the destroyer commander, and, having gained a certain experience, and having passed the minimum training, to the cruiser commander. A good commander can not be anyone. And the same applies to the commanders of combat units, even if they are combined on small ships.

Suppose we have eighty PLO corvettes in four fleets. This means that we keep on them eighty highly professional, experienced and bold (the other PLO “will not master” the corvette, this is not a tanker) of the ships' commanders. That is almost as much as the Americans on all cruisers and destroyers combined. And if we still have the same minesweepers and three dozen RTOs? This is a little less than the US Navy in general, if you do not take into account submarines. But at the same time, we don’t get close to those opportunities for using the fleet in foreign policy that the United States has. We will not, for putting pressure on someone, send an anti-submarine corvette to its shores?

Russia is more than twice less than the USA in terms of population. It is foolish to think that we will be able to form more crews (albeit few) and train more ship commanders and combat units than Americans have. It's impossible.

But can then go the way of the USA? When our submarine attempts to penetrate the Juan de Fuca Bay, she will have to deal not only with the US Navy anti-submarine aircraft, but also with destroyers. The Americans do not have corvettes, they frigates removed from service, but no one will prohibit the use of destroyers for hunting submarines, in conjunction with airplanes. On the other hand, “Arly Burke” can be loaded with Tomahawk missiles and sent to strike at Syria. It is universal in this sense.

However, here we will fail. The United States has a huge barrier in the form of two oceans that separate them from any enemy in Eurasia, and any enemy in Eurasia is surrounded by a dense ring of American allies and simply friendly countries that help America control its rivals right in their territory.

We are wrong, we have Japanese, Polish, Norwegian and Turkish radars provide Americans with intelligence information, highlighting for them the situation in our airspace and in our waters, sometimes in bases, and even these countries are ready, if necessary, to provide their territory for anti-Russian operations. As for us, next to the USA there is only a small and “see-through” Cuba. In such conditions, it is impossible to completely abandon the defensive forces.

Recall the US military operation against Iraq in 1991 year. The Iraqis mined the Persian Gulf, and two American ships blew up on their mines. It is worth thinking - what if the Iraqis would have the opportunity to mine the waters around military bases in the United States? Would they take advantage of this opportunity? Maybe yes. So Russia is just in such a vulnerable position. Most of our potential opponents are close to us. Close enough so that our bases would need to be guarded as best as possible.

There is a third problem.

The fleet is an incredibly specific kind of armed forces. Among other things, this is reflected in the fact that even the technical characteristics of the ships closely depend on what political tasks the state as a whole sets itself. For example, the Chinese are actively preparing to act in Africa - and amphibious ships, complex supply vessels, and floating hospitals for hundreds of beds are massively entering their fleets. It is critical for Americans to carry out a “projection of force” from the sea to the land. And they, in addition to the same as the Chinese, have fantastically developed transport forces, forces ensuring the landing of the second echelon of the amphibious assault forces, and thousands of cruise missiles to strike the coast. Not a single type of armed forces depends to such an extent on the strategic interests of society as a whole, or on the boundary conditions in which it is forced to carry out its policy. Russia is also concerned.

Take, for example, an extreme question for many aircraft carriers.

If we plan to use them for defense, the waters in which they will be used in a defensive war will be the Barents Sea, the Norwegian Sea, the Sea of ​​Okhotsk, the southern part of the Bering Sea, and if a number of circumstances coincide, the Sea of ​​Japan.

In these areas (with the exception of the Sea of ​​Japan), the sea is often very turbulent, and in order for an aircraft carrier to be effectively used in them, it must be quite large and heavy, otherwise it will be impossible to take off (or sit down, which is even worse). In fact, the Kuznetsov is the minimum possible ship for such conditions. But if we are going to dominate the Mediterranean, the Red Sea, and the Persian Gulf, then the requirements for an aircraft carrier are much simpler, and it can be approximately like the Italian Cavour, 30-35 thousand tonnes of displacement. Similar dependencies affect all ships. Should we, for example, be able to launch the Kalibr CD from frigates? And how. And if NATO did not exist, hostile regimes in Eastern Europe, Britain and the United States? Then, in general, the navy would hardly be needed, not to mention rocket weapons. It would be possible to "exhale."

Thus, the political and strategic objectives of the state have an impact on naval construction. In the case of Russia, they require both defensive forces and the ability to operate in the far sea zone, for example in the Mediterranean, at least to prevent the interruption of the Syrian Express. At the same time, the ability to extensively increase the “mosquito fleet” of small rocket ships and corvettes, and the ocean fleet of destroyers and aircraft carriers, Russia does not have a reason for the lack of economic power, and let's say it finally out loud - demography. Plus the factor that we have not one fleet, but four isolated, operating in different conditions.

What to do in this situation?

To begin with - define the tasks and boundary conditions.

Relatively speaking, we do not need PLO corvettes, but PLO itself, provided in any way we like. How? For example, an anti-submarine boat in 350-400 tons, with armament from one bomb, a pair of 324 mm torpedo tubes, four inclined PU PLUR, a pair of AK-630M, with a compact towed, lowered and hydrated GUS. Or with one 76 mm gun mount and one AK-630M (while keeping the rest of the weapon). Sacrificing the ship's air defense, sacrificing the presence of anti-ship missiles, and reducing the crew, we get a cheaper solution than the PLO corvette - although less universal, with less combat stability. Or, in general, a torpedo boat tons in 200, with one bomb bomb, 324-mm torpedo tubes, the same set of HAC, one AK-630М, shelling sector, close to the circular, without PLUR, with an even smaller crew. How will he hit submarines? Transfer target designation to the shore where the coastal-based PLRK will be located. What is the exhaust? The fact that the PLRK is one for the entire naval base, and it should be enough to ensure the release of strike ships and submarines into the sea. That is, the boat seems to be shooting, but not with its own rockets, but with the PCRK missiles. There are many boats, the PLRK is one, but for one or two enemy submarines it is enough.

In fact, it’s not a fact that this is the way to be done — this is just an example of how an expensive solution — the PLO corvette — is being replaced by a cheap boat. With minimal (subject to complete air cover) loss of effectiveness when used according to the main purpose. But with a significant loss of versatility, this is no longer to be such a guard. But instead of eighty people, headed by a lieutenant commander, we “spend” about thirty and a senior lieutenant on such a boat (for example) as a commander.

What else, besides such simplification, will allow "saving" money and people for the forces operating in the far sea and ocean zones?

Universalization. Let us give an example such as the defense of narrowness, for example, the second Kuril pass. We will not consider air defense issues yet - we proceed from the assumption that aviation provides it. In theory, small rocket ships, RTOs, would be useful here. But we have bad money, and therefore, instead of IRAs, there are several diesel-electric submarines with guided torpedoes. They themselves are more expensive than RTOs, but we also use them for firing with the “Gauges”, we will also engage them in the PLO of the Naval bases, and we will also attack the surface ships of the enemy, both with torpedoes and missiles, somewhere we land saboteurs - or we select them. They are used to solve very different and numerous tasks. DEPL us in any case to buy. Of course, the RTOs with some of these tasks would have done much better, but it is not capable of accomplishing all the tasks. But, because we have high-speed surface and underwater targets, for which the diesel-electric submarines simply can not keep up, even if you do not try to preserve secrecy, right? So, they are transferred to aviation - which you still need to have. In the red - the loss of the "option" tracking weapons. But it can be replaced by an air reconnaissance and aviation forces on the ground ready for an air attack — during a threatened period it is more expensive than sending RTOs, but at other times it is cheaper, because both aviation and air reconnaissance need to be paid anyway. Thus, in one case, we need the diesel-electric submarines, and in the other, diesel-electric submarines and interregulators. The choice is obvious.

What else could be the tricks? Placement of underwater vehicles-seekers of mines, unmanned boats with anti-mine GAS, and destroyers on the main warships of the DM & OZ. On the same frigates. This increases the cost of the ship, and inflates the state of the warhead-3. But this rise in price and inflation is incomparable with the need to have a separate minesweeper, even a small one.

By the way, one does not interfere with the other - the minesweepers are also needed in this case, they just need less, and significantly. Which is the goal. The naval base, on which the surface ships are based, will need far fewer minesweepers than if the PMO were carried out only by them, it would be necessary to hold large trawling forces only at submarine bases.

And of course, the provision of maneuver forces and means. For example, as stated in the article about the revival of landing forces, small landing ships, around which it is necessary to build the landing forces of the future, must pass along inland waterways so that a ship from the Black Sea could get into the Caspian, the Baltic, and the White Sea. Then the three “European” fleets and the Caspian flotilla will need to have fewer ships, and the lack of forces in one or the other direction will be compensated by transferring reinforcements from the other.

And the combat boats described above must also pass by water. And for their posting in the winter, engineering (ice reconnaissance of the rivers, blasting of the ice cover with the help of explosives) and icebreaking equipment should be worked out.

Another way to reduce fleet costs is to create reserves in advance. First of all, from ships that are no longer needed in combat, but for the time being at least limited in combat capability. For example, the light cruiser Mikhail Kutuzov, although it operates as a cell phone tower and a museum, is in fact listed as a reserve ship in the Navy. Its combat value, of course, is near zero, this is just an example of the fact that we have some reserves even now. On the approach, in the next decade, the retirement of the "Sharp-witted", perhaps some small ships, some of which, after a refurbishment, could be preserved. Also, it makes sense to consider reviving the practice of mobile reserve from civil courts.

Currently, thanks to the program of the Ministry of Industry and Trade "keel in exchange for quotas", a definite renaissance of the construction of fishing vessels is underway. It is quite possible, in exchange for additional subsidies, to provide for them additional means of communication and units for fastening removable, modular weapons, obliging the shipowners to maintain it all in good condition (which would be quite profitable for them financially). And keep in mind in advance that in the event of a big war, the auxiliary tasks will be solved by these mobilized ships, and not build them specifically for the fleet, spending money and forming crews.

But the main thing is the transfer of some functions to aviation. Unfortunately, airplanes cannot replace ships. The ship has the opportunity to be present in the right area for weeks, for aviation such a presence turns out to be inconceivably expensive. But she still has to reassign part of the tasks, if only because she can be transferred from theater to theater in 24 hours, which is absolutely impossible for ships. So, instead of creating numerous naval forces in each of the fleets, you can take turns attacking the enemy in different theaters with the same aircraft, but with a small shift in time.

The less money, and, most importantly, people, went to the mosquito fleet, the more the ocean remains.

And the last - and most important. Part of the tasks in the BMZ may well perform the DMiOZ ship. So, if it presses very strongly, then the frigate, and not the IRAs, can follow the weapon to the enemy. It looks irrational, but in this case we need only a frigate, and in the other, a frigate and IRAs, with the corresponding involvement of personnel and expenses. Similarly, it is possible to use frigates to ensure the deployment of SSBNs and protect them from enemy nuclear submarines, it is not necessary to build corvettes for this purpose. Not always, but often this is the case.

Once again, all the examples above are just a demonstration of the approach.

We list the main tasks of the Navy in the coastal zone:

- Mine security.
- Anti-submarine defense.
- Strikes on surface ships, including from the tracking position.
- Air defense bases, deployment areas of submarines and ship groups.
- Antiamphibious defense.
- Fire support landing.
- Protection of shipping, protection of convoys and amphibious units at the transition.
- Strikes on the shore with guided missiles and artillery.
- Statement of mine and network obstacles.

In principle, this list can be continued for a long time, the principle is important.

First, we determine which tasks from the list (however long this list may be) can be solved by aviation, and without prejudice to the quality of their implementation. These tasks are transferred to aviation. After all, you still need to have it.

Then we determine which tasks from the remaining ones can be solved by ships of the far sea zone, which will temporarily operate in the near (for example, the frigate covering the submarine’s transition from the Vilyuchinsk base to the Sea of ​​Okhotsk, after the operation is completed, can be used for completely different purposes, including and in the DMZ), and how many such ships are needed. Then we determine how much we have to have real ships of the near-sea zone, and how many of them can be simplified - boats that replace corvettes, or mobilized by civilian ships in general.

This will determine the minimum number of BMZ ships of various types that the Russian Navy should have, the minimum number of combat boats operating from the coast of aviation, modular weapons for mobilized ships, reserve ships and people. And it is these minimal forces that must be created.

And all other tasks, even in the BMZ, must be carried out by ships "from the frigate and above", ships of the far sea and ocean zones, nuclear submarines and anti-submarine long-range aircraft. And the main money should be spent on them. Because a frigate or a destroyer can fight submarines from its base, but to fight a few thousand miles from its native shores for a corvette of one and a half thousand tons is a difficult task, if at all.

Of course, in the construction of new ships will have to show economical approaches, and somewhere to combine tasks, for example, so that the landing ship could be transport at the same time and replace two ships.

But this does not negate the main thing.

Forces capable of acting only in the BMZ in our fleet, of course, should be. But to rely only on them, or to develop them extensively, as the USSR did, would be a fatal mistake. Because in this case it is on them that all available resources will go, and to fight the enemy in the far sea zone, where he will actually be, and from where he will strike his blows, nothing will remain, nothing will remain and the tasks peacetime, on Syrian-type operations, on “status projection,” as the Americans say, or “flag demonstration,” as we used to say to this day. To achieve the strategic goals of Russia in the world.

And this is unacceptable.

And although it is difficult to combine the presence of forces for the distant sea and ocean zones, with the defense forces for the near sea zone, both technically and organizationally, but this is feasible. You just need to correctly prioritize, and take non-standard approaches.

In the end, you can defend and in line with enemy bases. Wherever they are.
112 comments
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  1. +11
    27 December 2018 05: 33
    Project 949 nuclear submarine and Project 1164 missile cruiser. With these forces you can advance and defend

    In the photo, the silhouette of the BOD pr.1155 or in the vernacular Udaloy.
    1. +1
      27 December 2018 08: 33
      Damn, for sure. I will correct.
      1. +6
        27 December 2018 23: 45
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Damn, for sure. I will correct.

        For the article, of course, thanks, but you will have to fix not only the picture ...
        You have a jumble of concepts and definitions, and, not having decided on the definitions, you cannot seriously talk about the theory of the question. Specifically:
        1. The assertion that it is impossible to simultaneously have "offensive and defensive forces" is false. The carrier (ship platform) may be the same, but the weapons and tactics of its use will depend on the task at hand.
        2. Project 1134 (clean, without letters - "a", "b") - missile cruiser, not BOD, like 1134a) or 1134b).
        3. Misinterpret the tactics and combat use of the IRA compound. They have the most important thing - a missile strike during the raiding operation ... And for combat stability, they are attached to an EM / FR with an air defense system of group defense (zonal).
        4. Based on your statement that "powerful forces in the DMZ, in theory, give COMBAT RESISTANCE to coastal forces" - we can conclude that you do not understand the essence of the term "combat stability" (- the ability to RESIST the enemy's combat impact, while maintaining its ability to the maintenance of the database ... (? where is the impact of weapons, electronic warfare, etc.?)
        5. A controversial statement about Admiral Zumvald’s RCA. RCA - (always!) Shock forces, not defensive ...
        6. Why 80 corvettes for our fleet? Calculations justified 32 units! Next .... about TSC and MRK - the same.
        7. Interesting arguments about specialized and universal ships, about PMZ Vmb, ... training of ship commanders ... But how to understand your statement about the fact that "even the TECHNICAL characteristics are closely dependent on the political objectives of the state as a whole" ???
        The political goals of the state, undoubtedly, determine the structure of the fleet ship composition: the number and types of ships that will be built. But the technical characteristics of these ships entirely depend on the state of science, technology, materials science, shipbuilding, design school, the technological capabilities of shipyards, etc., and not on the political aspirations of the elite!
        8. It is completely incomprehensible to link the displacement of the AVU from the state of the sea! The displacement of the AVU is determined by the number of LA, taken them on board. The calculation is approximately 1Kt per aircraft unit. And the composition of the wing is determined by the tasks facing the AVU.
        9. Demography. It does not determine the presence of EM in the fleet. we have 146 million people, England has 66,5 million, but there are EM!
        10. I will not even comment on the arguments about PLO boats and weapons "crammed" into them. As well as the sufficiency of 1 coastal PLRK for the submarine naval base.
        I will say one thing: the boat will never replace the CORVET - neither for armament, nor for navigation and autonomy.
        11. Mobpreparation of the fleet and aviation of the fleet is "terra incognita" for you. Especially according to the standards of the combat use of aviation (combat tension!) Get into the technical readiness of the airline complexes and the provision of (ALL types!) Aviation.
        12. Coastal area - how many miles is it? BMZ = 1000 miles, and the coastal ???

        And so on ...
        1. 0
          30 December 2018 20: 50
          without reading all the comments.
          I am a jacket.
          1. The fleet is built to "round off" the land of possibilities - the borders have changed by the 17th century, IT IS NECESSARY TO RETURN THEM TO THE USSR. - It's a pity, yes.
          will be soon --------- to protect and capture friends in the DMZ
          2. politics --- we’ll join RB and the other fleet will be needed .... and so on
          3. if in the article I understand almost everything --- small and weak
          special waited several days.
  2. +6
    27 December 2018 05: 40
    How many US anti-submarine corvettes? Not at all.

    Why should they, if they have a lot of destroyers and cruisers equipped with modern anti-submarine weapons: built-in, towed, air-based. Not to mention the huge number of multi-purpose nuclear submarines whose task it is precisely to fight against enemy submarines. Where is more?
    And minesweepers? Eleven or something. According to the plans of the U.S. Navy, when finally there are anti-mine modules for LCS ships, the fleet will buy eight sets of each for the Atlantic and Pacific theater of operations. This is practically zero.

    Mine modules for that and modules that can be installed on ANY ship. In addition to LCS, all landing ships possess anti-mine weapons, of which there are also many, while there are also air-based ones.
    So the author initially sets the wrong parameters.
    1. 0
      27 December 2018 06: 36
      Yes, I think a lot of letters that Andrei from the Ural city can more easily describe. Although he had articles and based on them with the onset of big problems.
      1. +1
        27 December 2018 08: 34
        Have you ever understood the meaning of what you read to make such statements? Maybe he will describe, and maybe better.
        But it's not that.
        1. +5
          27 December 2018 10: 00
          As they wrote as I understood, maybe my level is not the same, or one of two? hi
          1. -5
            27 December 2018 13: 57
            There are two guys here - a broom and 1155. If your opinion coincides with theirs - then you have not mastered.
            Very simple indicator laughing
            1. +3
              27 December 2018 14: 22
              My opinion is my opinion and I expressed it. The site for this was conceived a very long time ago, when I was only a reader. If you think so, then this is your right.
            2. +6
              27 December 2018 14: 38
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              There are two guys here - a broom and 1155. If your opinion coincides with them, then you have not mastered. Very simple laughing indicator

              ========
              There is an EVEN simpler "indicator" - this is "agreement" or "disagreement" - with the "former" (Marine or "Marine Special Forces") - now calling himself a "journalist" - Timokhin!
              And only you can "master" your "opus" - because it is simply "endless repetition" of the same "common truths" !!!! request AND NOTHING NEW !!!
              For sim - I have HONOR !!! soldier
              ------
              PS And to "master" Timokhin's "opus" is able - ONLY Timokhin !!!
            3. +1
              27 December 2018 15: 52
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              There are two guys here - a broom and 1155. If your opinion coincides with them, then you have not mastered. Very simple laughing indicator

              =========
              Yes, WHERE we are "sirim" and "poor" ..... We have here "beacon"-" Alexander Timokhin "!!! HE IS PAVING the way for us" poor "!!! OH!!! Who else ??
              (Sorry, Alexander! WHAT YOU DESERVED - THAT and GET!)
              You think you are ONE here "steep, like boiled eggs"??? The problem is that if (chicken eggs) - cook for 10 (! (10) ten minutes longer) - then they will be - EVEN COOLER !!!
              Well, here (On the "Military Review" (twisted - "twisted") - there are so many of THEM (!!) .... (Neither you, nor me ... even folding your fingers (hands and feet) - "count" - NOT IT WILL HAPPEN !!!
              Even if you are a former "Marine" (or "Marine Special Forces"!) soldier
        2. +5
          27 December 2018 10: 25
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          Have you ever understood the meaning of what you read in order to make such statements?

          ==========
          And understand him in general - HARD!!! For the author's habit of "spreading his thoughts along the tree" leads to the fact that after reading the article to the end, you stop understanding where it began and what it is dedicated to !!!
          What's the point??? Do you need to have a BALANCED fleet that matches the REAL capabilities of the country ??? So this - and "a no brainer"!
          What to do for this? This is where the author's "wild flight of imagination" began ... Starting from the "laying" of blocks and systems for military purposes into the ships under construction of the fishing fleet (by the way, in Soviet times, this was practiced (!) But now, in the conditions of modern Russia, try this implement!) and ending with the construction of "anti-submarine" boats with a displacement of 200-300 tons (! ??? request) with powerful anti-submarine equipment and weapons, which is completely "unscientific fantasy"!) ..... By the way - about the latter: is it not easier and cheaper to simply equip the naval base areas with bottom and anchor acoustic and magnetic sensors ???
          The creation of a mobilization reserve of the fleet from decommissioned and mothballed ships is generally a sensible idea - the Americans have been doing just that for a long time ... BUT !!! Here it is necessary to very, very seriously change the entire system of personnel training for the reserve (in the manner of the American) - this is ONCE! And the second - the Americans withdraw to the fleet reserve ONLY ships with not too high physical wear i.e. quite capable of combat (just turned out to be "superfluous") due to the changed doctrine or geopolitical situation. They are a rich country - they can afford it! In our country, due to much more limited capabilities - the ships are "nursed" to the "last" (that is, to the EXTREME degree of wear!) ... AND WHY should such a reserve be formed ????
          1. +4
            27 December 2018 11: 46
            Quote: venik
            Do you need to have a BALANCED fleet that matches the REAL capabilities of the country ??? So this - and "a no brainer"!

            Unfortunately, the degradation of the "elites", including the military, has reached the boundaries when people responsible for, in particular, defense cannot think or work conceptually.

            Those. there is no vision of the principles of war of the future, and most importantly - "their own" place in these challenges. And, therefore, it is impossible to formulate a concept or, as they say, a military doctrine.

            And only on the basis of the concept will it be possible to understand what the army / navy needs, what to work on, what types of weapons will be needed after five, ten, thirty years.

            Now it all comes down to "let's do this or improve something" without thinking too much - is it necessary, is this or is it better? Maybe you need something else?

            Yes, there are separate "breakthrough" products, but again, how well will this work in conjunction with the rest of the military?

            Well, it’s clear - the economy as a factor in limiting Wishlist ...
            1. +3
              27 December 2018 18: 58
              Quote: iConst
              Well, it’s clear - the economy as a factor in limiting Wishlist ...

              ========
              Oh my God! Yes, HOW do I agree with you !!!! But WHERE and HOW to find facilities on the REVIVAL of the Russian Fleet ???
              Do you want-do not want ... And "legs - on the" clothes "have to be stretched .... AND HOW I WANT to see NEW Aircraft Carriers, Cruisers, Destroyers !!! Yes, at least Frigates !!! I'm not even talking about "Podplav" ........
            2. 0
              27 December 2018 19: 06
              Quote: iConst
              Unfortunately, the degradation of the "elites", including the military, has reached the boundaries when people responsible for, in particular, defense cannot think or work conceptually.

              =========
              Are you SURE OF THIS ?? (I personally - NO !!) .... This does not mean that you are WRONG !!! (maybe just me - NOT RIGHT!) .....
              1. +2
                28 December 2018 09: 51
                Quote: venik
                Are you SURE OF THIS ?? (I personally - NO !!)

                Yes, I'm glad to be wrong. But intelligence signs speak of the fidelity of my conclusion.

                Speaking about degradation, I did not mean personal (although this is the second number), but about a system that destroys any attempt at a systematic approach (: D). A systematic approach implies a clear interaction of all sectors of the economy and the social environment.
                From medicine and education to basic science and space technology.
                Do you see anything like this in the country?
          2. 0
            30 December 2018 20: 55
            What's the point??? Need to have a BALANCED fleet, corresponding to the REAL capabilities of the country ???

            ------------ The real tasks of the country.
            otherwise you have to go to the coffins yourself
            hope dies last!!!!!!!!!!
        3. -7
          27 December 2018 11: 49
          A Jew from Chelyabinsk / member of the Russian cluster of the British "Integration Initiative" will describe anything positively about the Russian Navy - this is fantastic laughing
          1. +2
            27 December 2018 13: 53
            And will there be any evidence of your unfounded allegation?
            1. -5
              27 December 2018 15: 17
              See the articles of the Chelyabinsk Russophobe at VO.
              1. +5
                27 December 2018 19: 02
                Quote: Operator
                See the articles of the Chelyabinsk Russophobe at VO.

                ==========
                I just look at the "comments" of the Ukrainian ("Operator" aka "Andrey") Russophobe and EVERYTHING becomes CLEAR !!!
                1. -2
                  27 December 2018 23: 40
                  And you, then, will the Israeli Russophobe? bully
          2. +6
            27 December 2018 15: 41
            Quote: Operator
            A Jew from Chelyabinsk / member of the Russian cluster of the British "Integration Initiative" will describe anything positively about the Russian Navy - this is fantastic laughing

            To write positively about the fleet, it is necessary that something positive be real. And we have been upgrading old ships for 10 years, and building new ones for 10 years. One bright spot - and then under water. smile
  3. +8
    27 December 2018 05: 49
    But the gigantic expenses for the fleet also made themselves felt.

    How can one say this without citing specific figures? I now consider that the USSR Navy was a beggar in comparison with the same Strategic Missile Forces or Air Defense. There was not enough money for basic equipment, for moorings because of what the ships killed a resource on raids. Yes, bl on foreign Communist Parties and their leaders such as Gas Hall and Volodya Teitelboim, and the support of all kinds of freaks like Mengistu Haile Mariam was spent much more than on its own fleet.
    1. +3
      27 December 2018 06: 44
      Yes, everything is so ... half the world of parasites were kept at the expense of the USSR.
      But now everything rests on the possibilities of the Russian budget ... and as you know, it is formed mainly through taxes on oil, gas, trade and the population of Russia.
      To build at least a couple of full-fledged aircraft carriers, you need to introduce some kind of new tax ... our society is already groaning from existing taxes ... social problems will arise ... in general, so far it’s bad with this in our state.
      1. +3
        27 December 2018 11: 58
        Quote: The same LYOKHA
        But now everything rests on the possibilities of the Russian budget ... and as you know, it is formed mainly through taxes on oil, gas, trade and the population of Russia.

        We also forgot about the ongoing "carve-up". Almost all of the privatized companies are offshore groups.
        Here, on hearing, Deripaska Rusal is a "Russian company", a fraction of the assets of the En + group. Offshore. Ask at your leisure who owns the country's main commodity assets. The press is modestly silent here.
        In fact, Russia sponsors the enemy. It would be fun to fight with Germany at 41-45 and at the same time rivet tanks, planes, cartridges for them.

        And you about the budget ...
    2. -4
      27 December 2018 08: 48
      I am afraid that in one article of a small format the topic with numbers simply cannot be disclosed. Well, if we conditionally take one Tu-22М for 12-13 million Soviet rubles at the end of 80-s, and the submarine for 150-200 (depending on type), then the order of expenses for the Gorshkovsky mega fleet with hundreds of submarines and the MPA becomes approximately understandable .
      About the fact that they ate money and other types of aircraft I wrote.

      In general, historically, the fleet is more expensive than the army during periods of intensive construction of new ships and cheaper between these periods, but not always by much, by tens of percent.

      And yes, you can always open the topic better))))
      1. +6
        27 December 2018 13: 31
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Well, if you arbitrarily take one Tu-22M for 12-13 million Soviet rubles at the end of the 80s, and nuclear submarines for 150-200 (depending on type), then the order of expenses for the Gorshkovskiy mega-fleet with hundreds of submarines and MPA becomes approximately clear .

        I don’t know where the author took the numbers with the cost of the nuclear submarine, but I think that he obviously misled something. In Soviet times, the APPROXIMATE cost of the Typhoon was about 1,2-1,4 billion rubles. , aircraft carrier - from 1,5 billion rubles, missile cruiser 700-800 million rubles.
        By the way, the scout ship "Ural" cost the country about 100 million rubles. or a little more. I do not think that its cost is commensurate with a nuclear submarine, although it had a nuclear installation.
    3. +3
      27 December 2018 10: 57
      Quote: Puncher
      How can one say this without citing specific figures?

      So ... it’s dangerous to give specific numbers. smile
      Expenditures on the Soviet Navy in 1989 amounted to 12,08 billion rubles, of which 2993 million rubles for the purchase of ships and boats and 6531 million for technical equipment)

      Moreover, the total defense spending of the USSR in 1989 amounted to 75,2 billion rubles.
      Truly - gigantic expenses for the fleet. smile
      1. -1
        27 December 2018 14: 04
        Soviet statistics it was one more statistics. However, post links to sources please.

        By the way, 75 yards in 1989 is approximately 15 million passenger cars))))) At the prices at that time.

        But I do not remember, Volga or Zhiguli.
        1. +6
          27 December 2018 14: 50
          Quote: timokhin-aa
          Soviet statistics it was one more statistics. However, post links to sources please.

          The cost of the fleet is Pavlov A. S. The Soviet Navy. 1990-1991. Reference book.
          The total figure for military spending is the "National Economy of the USSR in 1990 Statistical Yearbook".
  4. +11
    27 December 2018 06: 03
    There are no offensive or defensive forces. There are offensive and defensive operations. Shield, oddly enough, in ancient times could in offensive actions to be even more effective, because leaning, it was possible to knock down with a shield, and then finish off with a sword. Conversely, the sword in defensive actions allows you to keep your distance and choose the moment to attack (again, not necessarily with a sword).
    1. -3
      27 December 2018 08: 36
      In the case of the Navy, TTK ships limit the ability to conduct offensive or defensive operations.
      Thus, the destroyer is useless in the Sea of ​​Azov, and the Buyan-M MRK will not help in the protection of convoys to Venezuela, so this question is quite legitimate.
      1. +5
        27 December 2018 22: 32
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        the destroyer is useless in the Azov Sea, and the Buyan-M MRK will not help in the protection of convoys to Venezuela,

        This is a misconception.
        An EM may well provide air defense / missile defense of a CTG, a CUG or a CGD ... Maybe, like Buyan, it’s not possible for its RK to prevent enemy strikes from reaching the line of fulfilling its tasks. (The range of the Caliber exceeds the range of the Harpoon). Well, further in the text ... Yes
        1. +1
          28 December 2018 04: 28
          In the Sea of ​​Azov, ships sail along the fairways dug in during the USSR. Outside their depth is very often measured in meters.

          Buyan-M cannot shoot at ships, he has nothing to detect them at a great distance, from his radar station, plus there seems to be a "cut off" functionality from the UKSK.

          So he can not do anything.
          1. +2
            28 December 2018 19: 21
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            So he can not do anything.

            Erroneous judgment. I already wrote on the site that the ships of the Caspian Flotilla launched a missile strike with Calibers on the control center from the ZGRLS PV "Podsolnukh-E" at 400 km. And that was back in 2016, so ... call !!!
  5. -4
    27 December 2018 08: 05
    Well, finally a normal balanced article appeared on the topic of the fleet.
  6. +5
    27 December 2018 08: 37
    There is not enough money, while they are taken out by those who have them with a margin. If you want to withdraw the ruble, invest in the economy 2. You can still think of a lot, but so far the country is surviving and getting poorer as a VIP yacht more expensive than couches.
  7. +4
    27 December 2018 09: 32
    ".....PLO, provided in any way. Which one? For example, an anti-submarine boat of 350-400 tons, with weapons from a single bomb, a pair of 324 mm torpedo tubes, four inclined launchers, a pair of AK-630M, with a compact towed, lowered and winged GAS. Or with one 76 mm gun mount and one Ak-630M (while maintaining the rest of the weapon). ..... "
    ========
    Interestingly, and HOW "all this good" to cram into a displacement of 300-400 tons ???? request
    1. -2
      27 December 2018 10: 29
      Well, how about the same amount of iron, only Soviet, heavy and cumbersome, stuck in the IPC Ave. 204, with a displacement of 439 tons?

      In the distance, when you want to write something, immediately grab with your hands something like balls from a bearing or a bead, and touch with your fingers until you let go laughing
      You can also hang a sign over your computer "I'M ALWAYS WRONG AND I CAN'T SPEAK OUT" for self-discipline.
      laughing laughing
      1. +3
        28 December 2018 00: 03
        in fact, as soon as the MPK pr 204 was completed, they immediately understood its flaw and immediately began the MPK pr 1124 with a total displacement of more than a thousand tons.
        1. +1
          28 December 2018 04: 29
          At that time, each microcircuit had two handles for carrying, and systems like the same "Package" simply did not exist.
          1. +1
            28 December 2018 09: 46
            Nevertheless, the example with pr204 was clearly unsuccessful.
            The boats also became different. Strongly different.
  8. +2
    27 December 2018 10: 08
    So Russia has already chosen the coastal zone defensive fleet. And this is reasonable given the difficult financial situation in which the country finds itself. The economy will improve, and then the money will appear on large ships.
    Of course, there are missile submarines with ICBMs.
    But they can shoot fine right from the piers across the North Pole. Here and go to sea, which is risky, is not necessary.
    1. +1
      27 December 2018 10: 17
      These are all broken methods. At one time, Iran destroyed almost the entire Iraqi fleet in a few hours, and not at the bases, but at sea, on the move.
      In our case, the story will repeat - the enemy will have the opportunity to deliver massive blows from a distance on our coastal forces, and we will not have time to react to this (the article says).

      Boats at the piers are carried out by cruise missiles in the first minutes of the war.

      That's the problem.
      1. +4
        27 December 2018 10: 37
        All this is true. But there is no choice. Russia has a powerful trump card - ICBMs. Trump ace, figuratively speaking. But the rest of the cards are weak and work only under the guise of this trump ace.
        Nevertheless, for local wars (not against NATO), the Russian army is quite ready and combat-ready. And the fleet here has the strength adequate to the tasks. Syria is an example.
        1. 0
          28 December 2018 00: 04
          ok against NATO, but against Spain for example?
          or Italy?
      2. +5
        27 December 2018 22: 47
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Boats at the piers are carried out by cruise missiles in the first minutes of the war.

        Lenin said about the Narodniks: "They are terribly far from the people ..."
        We can say about you - "you are terribly far from the Fleet", its combat readiness system, etc. When the KR will "fly", there will be no boats at the piers ... And the air defense system of the naval base was also created for something ...
        1. +1
          28 December 2018 04: 31
          Will there be boats? Well this is if there will be a threatened period. And if not? The enemy will strive to achieve surprise.
          1. +1
            28 December 2018 19: 40
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            Will there be boats? Well this is if there will be a threatened period. And if not? The enemy will strive to achieve surprise.

            "Surprises", as you have deigned to say, are different, depending on the level of management: strategic, operational and tactical. What are you talking about? If we are talking about operational, then we have time to move away from the pier and dive right into the base. In the North, the depth is sufficient, in Kamchatka, I suppose, too. But RPKSNs on the AB will go to the ZRBD, simultaneously introducing one of the sides and preparing a missile attack with the second AB group.
            Strategic surprise - state level. Tactical - mainly for the forces of direct tracking or contact ... And here is the first operation of the fleet forces, the first echelon ...
            So again ... chant!
    2. +3
      27 December 2018 11: 02
      Quote: voyaka uh
      So Russia has already chosen the coastal zone defensive fleet.

      If only ...
      Coastal defense begins with base defense. And there we have a full fifth point. The existing MPCs were built back in the USSR, the development of new MPCs was halted by the fleet in 2014. New TPs arrive in a teaspoon per hour - the same Pacific Fleet with its Boreas still does not have a single TP. That way, you will soon have to provide OVR with a few 1155, 11356 and 22350. sad
    3. +4
      27 December 2018 22: 41
      Quote: voyaka uh
      But they can perfectly shoot straight from the piers across the North Pole.

      Alexey, you are certainly a "great scientist", but in modern conditions the factor of time has acquired the significance of a factor of force. Therefore, firing from the Gulf of Mexico (SLBM flight time = 5-7 minutes) significantly differs from the time of delivery of the BB to the target on the North American continent when firing from the Motovsky Bay or the Sea of ​​Okhotsk ... Moreover, in the first case, the sea (and the continental , perhaps too) PRO is displayed outside the brackets ...
      Quote: voyaka uh
      Here and at sea to go out, which is risky, is not necessary.

      To "not go to sea" - "came up with" the Strategic Missile Forces !!! And what about "risky", so there are the forces of support ... and the courage of the real guys from the submarine.
      AHA.
      1. -2
        28 December 2018 01: 04
        "Risky" - I did not mean at all that the divers are scared: no, of course.
        But objectively speaking, breaking through the North Atlantic to the Gulf of Mexico -
        zero chance. The "throat" between Britain, Iceland, Greenland is stuffed with anti-submarine sensors, PLO aircraft and fighter boats.
        The situation in the Pacific is better, but there are also numerous bases there, squadrons graze ...
        With only a few combat-ready submarines with ICBMs, it is easier to shoot directly from piers.
        1. +1
          28 December 2018 19: 54
          Quote: voyaka uh
          With only a few combat-ready submarines with ICBMs, it is easier to shoot directly from piers.

          In the presence of at least 2 projects of RPKSN-s and the tactics of their use, presumably, are also different ... 667s can be discharged from the pier, but the 955s will be engaged in this either from the RDB or from the deployment route to the RDB. .. So it will be more convenient for them ... they are quieter than Elks and Virgins. And on other (false, demonstrative) routes you can send "noisily" and 971st, 945, 949th ... It's a pity the 885s are not enough! Otherwise, it would be possible for the Amsk "hunters" to arrange an unexpected "ambush"! bully
    4. 0
      28 December 2018 22: 54
      Quote: voyaka uh
      And this is reasonable given the difficult financial situation in which the country finds itself.


      It is not only about money, but also about the workload of the shipyards.
  9. 0
    27 December 2018 10: 52
    A very good and balanced article without a jingoistic patriotic type of "throwing our caps at everyone" and probably without self-deprecating Russia. True, I have not yet had the strength and time to read even to half.
    But personally, I believe that Russia needs to create a fleet simultaneously for two purposes - both a defensive and a long-range, more precisely the same fleet, but capable of operating thousands of miles (for example, off the coast of the United States) and near its bases, and at the same time very cheap. This is not an alternative at all. The fact is that the seaworthiness of a properly designed ship does not at all depend on its size, and a small boat can easily have seaworthiness and cruising range better than an ocean cruiser. The fact is that, for example, catamarans boats have excellent seaworthiness on any wave - even the ocean. And the cruising range of boats can be increased by a very simple means: reducing the economic speed to 10 knots and installing special economy engines. The range will increase to the point that boats will be able to sail around the world. And at the same time, they are capable of defending their bases. In the same way, we need ultra-small submarines with a displacement of only 200-500 tons (not thousands of tons !!) with nuclear power plants! And a huge immersion depth of several kilometers. I think this is quite possible! And I know how to do it. Such small ships and small submarines will be relatively cheap and have a small crew. And several such small boats will have to keep an eye on the entire American fleet - peacefully following the strategic nuclear submarines - "city killers" with the task of immediately torpedoing and destroying them in preparation for launching missiles. Then the Americans will have to cut their strategic submarines into scrap metal and transfer all their ballistic missiles to the United States - and these will increase the threat to their country.
    But I still think that it is necessary to build double-hull fiberglass aircraft-catamarans. Which can for a long time - months and years lie on the surface of the ocean near the US coast and refuel from submarines, and carry out a threat to the United States in peacetime.
    Yes, there is much more that can be done - for example, building fiberglass small ships - are invisible in the radar and thermal ranges.
    And aircraft carriers to build only submarine nuclear, so that they are both landing and transport ships. - so that they could make huge long crossings under water, and suddenly attack the enemy in an unknown place for him, or land troops, or deliver tens of thousands of tons of ammunition, food and fuel, and supply friendly countries: Cuba, Venezuela, Vietnam, Syria , China, Philippines.
    1. +3
      27 December 2018 10: 58
      Great banter)
  10. +2
    27 December 2018 11: 04
    This is a really difficult choice - it is a choice, because it is impossible to have both defensive forces and offensive. No economy can stand it.

    Well ... the US economy somehow survived this? The Yankees simultaneously had a dozen AUGs and a crowd of purely escort "OHP" and "Knox".
    1. 0
      27 December 2018 13: 01
      The key word was "had". Where are all these escorts now?
      1. +1
        28 December 2018 00: 05
        no one to escort from. the threat burst.
      2. +1
        28 December 2018 13: 22
        Quote: Vyacheslav D.
        The key word was "had". Where are all these escorts now?

        There are dozens of Soviet SSGN and ICAPL. There is no threat - no ships are needed to defend against it.
        True, recently USN admirals are again beginning to demand the resumption of the construction of normal frigates - instead of the "multipurpose" littoral ships, on which they tried to shift frigate tasks.
    2. -1
      27 December 2018 14: 00
      On the verge of withstand, in addition, the Knox were built for a long time)))) And Perry - were necessary for PLO AUG and KUG, it is not a purely defensive weapon.
      1. +1
        27 December 2018 15: 17
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        On the verge of sustained, in addition, Knox built a long time ago))))

        And they served until the end of the Cold War.
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        And Perry - were necessary for PLO AUG and KUG, this is not a purely defensive weapon.

        Zumwalt thought otherwise.
        USN had Spruyens to escort the KUG and AUG. And OHP is a cheap and massive ASW and long-range air defense of Atlantic convoys, DESO and the floating rear.
        1. 0
          28 December 2018 04: 32
          This is when Perry plotted. But then everything changed, they added a second hangar, and put it in the PLO KUGOV. Forever practically.
    3. -4
      27 December 2018 15: 33
      Because the Yankees have a printing press on which they can print as much money as they need. So the question of lack of money among the Yankees is, in principle, not worth it. This is in Russia, where the Central Bank does not obey the Government and, in fact, is a branch of the IMF, has an eternal lack of money, since Russia does not have the right to issue the ruble.
      1. +1
        27 December 2018 18: 55
        Well, yes, but instead of people in the Central Bank, reptilians work.
        1. +1
          27 December 2018 23: 31
          Well, keep believing in the "miracle" of the American economy. I suppose you still believe in the victory of democracy all over the world?
  11. -2
    27 December 2018 12: 04
    I’m not marine, but in my opinion the article is reasoned and analytical
  12. +1
    27 December 2018 14: 00
    "After all, you can defend along the line of enemy bases. Wherever they are."
    you can, or you can just destroy the enemy’s base anywhere in the world ... feel
  13. -3
    27 December 2018 14: 39
    Oh, these sofa onolitegs - flotoman - gigantomania. To begin with, at least read the military history of Russia, at least the basics, and then dream of spending trillions on the fleet. As the experience of more than three hundred years of history has shown, the Russian fleet was absolutely not needed, a lot of money was spent on it, and there was no benefit from the fleet. The Swedes were defeated on land near Poltava, the Crimean Khanate de facto became Russian following the results of the Russian-Turkish war of 1768-1774, where all victories over Turks and Krymchaks were won on land as well. Frederick the Great was beaten on land, with the division of the lords the fleet was also not needed. Napoleon was also defeated on land. In the Russian-Swedish war of 1808-1809, following which Finland was annexed to Russia, the Swedes were also beaten on land. Transcaucasia, Central Asia, and Primorye were also joined exclusively by ground forces, the fleet was idle. In the Crimean War, the fleet was simply sunk into the sea, since the Russian fleet was useless against the British-French fleet. In the Russo-Japanese War, the fleet stupidly lost to the Japanese, without any benefit. In World War I, all battles also took place on land, the sailors of the Baltic Fleet toiled for three years from idleness, and as a result became the fiery match of the liberals led by Kerensky, who ousted the tsar and began to ruin the empire. In the Second World War, the fleet was also useless, but thank God, the Soviet leadership, unlike the tsar, did not allow the sailors to sit back and spend the whole war in the rear, but sent them to the infantry. The fleet also did not participate in post-war conflicts, all the ground forces did.
    Therefore, I believe that the Russian fleet is not needed. Enough of a couple of dozen boats for coastal patrols, and all. Russia, unlike Britain and the USA, does not have overseas territories that need to be protected with the help of the fleet. The only overseas territory that Russia had was Alaska. And then it was sold mediocre for 7,2 million dollars, the amount is just for chickens to laugh. That would be Alaska, it would still make sense to keep the Pacific Fleet to protect Alaska. And so ... The Russian fleet is not needed. Unless the fleet is needed by uncles who in childhood did not play enough boats.
    1. +3
      27 December 2018 15: 18
      Please humbly forgive me. But your comment gives you a person who, it would be nice to familiarize yourself with the history of the Russian fleet.
      Comments like "The Russian fleet is not needed" - I have never read anything more stupid.
      1. -4
        27 December 2018 15: 31
        I, unlike you, have argued why Russia does not need a fleet. You, without giving any arguments, begin to stick labels and object to me. So give me reasons why Russia needs a fleet?
        1. +3
          27 December 2018 15: 48
          You write that there was no benefit from the fleet. But is it?
          Archipelago expeditions. 1st 1769-1774 and 2nd 1806-1807
          Ushakov's Mediterranean Campaign (1798-1800)
          The expedition of the Russian fleet to the shores of North America (1863-1864)
          These are all classic examples of projecting a naval force onto a remote theater.
          1. -4
            27 December 2018 16: 20
            AND? And what was the exhaust from these campaigns and expeditions?
            Archipelago expeditions. 1st 1769-1774 and 2nd 1806-1807
            The Russians shed blood for British interests in the Mediterranean, which has nothing to do with Russia at all. With the same success, the Russian fleet could fight for the interests of others in the Persian Gulf or Biscay.
            Ushakov's Mediterranean Campaign (1798-1800)
            It is also an absolutely pointless occupation for the sake of British interests, which ended in zilch after a quarrel between Paul and George.
            The expedition of the Russian fleet to the shores of North America (1863-1864)
            In fact, it’s funny to read how they write that the Russian fleet allegedly decided something in the Civil War, after a humiliating defeat in the Crimean War. The Russian fleet would be defeated by one English squadron, of which England had dozens. This is the first. Secondly, by the summer of 1863 it was already clear that the southerners had lost the war. The fall of Vicksberg, where the Southerners lost about 50 thousand people dead, wounded and captured, and the defeat at Gettysburg, became a turning point in that war. Southerners threw all their forces for broke in the battle of Gettysburg, and lost. The white population of the United States exceeded the white population of the United States by 4 times, and the northerners could afford the luxury of exchanging four of their killed soldiers for one killed southerner. So the depletion of the South and its defeat was only a matter of time.
            So, what benefit did these listed campaigns and expeditions of the Russian fleet bring to Russia? In my opinion, they brought benefits of zero point zero. But much more harm, since millions of rubles were spent on a useless fleet.
            1. +1
              27 December 2018 17: 41
              If you put the question this way, then the presence of the fleet did not help either Germany (lost all world wars), Britain (the empire collapsed after WWII) and the USA (lost the Vietnam War) laughing
              1. +1
                27 December 2018 23: 42
                Hmm, again very poorly knowledgeable of history. In both World Wars, Germany was ground in battles on land. In WWI, in the meat grinders of Somme, Verdun, the overwhelming superiority of the Allies both in manpower and in technology. Well, there is nothing to say about World War II, the power of Germany found its end on the Eastern Front.
                Britain (Empire collapsed after WWII)

                The empire is still alive, Britain includes Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Papua New Guinea and a couple dozen overseas territories like the Bahamas, Jamaica, the Falklands and Gibraltar. And by the way, it was the British fleet that gave the tinsel to Argentina in 1982 in the war for the Falklands.
                USA (lost the Vietnam war)

                Actually, in Vietnam, the outcome of the war was not decided by military actions, but by politics. Just like the defeat of the USSR in Afghanistan, it was not the result of a military defeat, but the result of the treacherous policies of Gorbachev and his entourage.
                1. +1
                  28 December 2018 02: 19
                  You didn’t understand - I was just saying that even having a fleet, and one of the first three, didn’t help Germany, Britain and America win the war and even (in the first two cases) preserve their imperial formations.

                  PS For your information: Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc. enter not the British Empire (which is no longer), but the British Commonwealth - such as the CIS (which still exists).
                  1. +1
                    28 December 2018 02: 37
                    Well, actually it was the presence of the fleet that helped Britain survive in both World Wars against Germany, since it was the Royal Navy that prevented the German fleet from blocking Britain and stifling it with hunger and lack of resources. If it were not for the fleet, then the Kaiser and Hitler fleets would strangle the British population with hunger, and the British economy with the lack of raw materials for industrial production.
                    But this is nonsense:
                    I was just saying that even the presence of a fleet, and one of the first three, did not help (...) America to win the war

                    In fact, it was thanks to the fleet that the United States defeated the Japanese in the Asia-Pacific region, and it was thanks to the fleet that they were able to transport millions of soldiers and millions tons of military products to Europe and the USSR. If it were not for the United States, which destroyed the Japanese fleet by August 1945, Soviet troops would not have been able to recapture the south of Sakhalin and the Kuril Islands from the Japanese. The maximum, the Red Army could knock the Japanese out of the continent, but the Japanese would firmly hold the islands thanks to its fleet, and the stalemate would arise, which arose in the Anglo-German War of 1940 and the Napoleonic Wars, when both Hitler and Napoleon, owning the continent, did not could land in Britain.
                    PS For your information: Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc. enter not the British Empire (which is no longer), but the British Commonwealth - such as the CIS (which still exists).

                    Hmmm, you do not know trivial things, and you oppose here. In fact, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and Papua New Guinea monarchies are subject to the British monarch, and these dominions are governed by a governor-general appointed by the monarch. The Governor-General is the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of these dominions, he proposes candidates for the post of prime minister to the monarch, he also approves federal deputies, ministers and judges at federal levels, and has the right to dismiss them, as well as dissolve their parliament. You read the Constitutions of these "countries", which in fact have a little more independence than the Russian regions from the federal center. Therefore, by the way, Canada constantly makes all sorts of harsh statements in the direction of Russia, although it would seem, what does Canada care about Russia? But in fact, the voice of the Canadian Foreign Ministry is the voice of London, and diplomats around the world are well aware of this. By the way, read the oath that people take when they receive Canadian citizenship. In the text of this oath, the future citizen of Canada swears allegiance ... to the British monarch. Suddenly, huh?
                    And by the way, since there is no British Empire, it turns out, and the Soviet Union was not there either? After all, the Russian Empire disappeared in March 1917.
                    1. +1
                      28 December 2018 09: 41
                      You obviously do not want to understand - I gave examples of the uselessness of the Navy in specific wars, and you answer me exactly according to the instructions of the "Integration Initiative": - like Britain did not lose in WWII solely on its own (without 100 destroyers transferred from the United States, and defeat of the Wehrmacht on the Soviet-German front).

                      Continue to rave about the existence of a British "empire" of England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Papua New Guinea laughing
                      1. +1
                        28 December 2018 11: 01
                        Quote: Operator
                        Continue to rave about the existence of a British "empire" of England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Papua New Guinea

                        Well, a bad case. Although not surprising. The British deftly mimicked their empire, and 95% of people sincerely believe that Canada, Australia and New Zealand are sovereign independent countries like Mexico, Sweden and the Philippines.
        2. +2
          27 December 2018 22: 55
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          So give me the reasons why Russia needs the fleet?

          Our enemy is Atlantic sea powers. Therefore, the struggle for communications and the defeat of its KOH, DesO - the most important task of our Armed Forces. The Fleet, MRA, YES, Strategic Rocket Forces (part of the resource) can solve it.
          This, if briefly.
          1. 0
            27 December 2018 23: 43
            Oh yes, just an oil painting: the Russian fleet is on a par with the British and US fleets. Interestingly, in what parallel universe could this come to mind?
            1. 0
              28 December 2018 20: 00
              Quote: Kot_Kuzya
              Russia's fleet is on a par with the fleets of Britain and the United States.

              Kotyara! Take care! The fleet will not pull a single operation to defeat AMG. Such a task was set only before the Union fleet and then with the involvement of the DA and the Strategic Missile Forces ... Now it is still more problematic, but not unrealistic. GZKR much changed in the weights of the effectiveness of the forces ...
              So, kittyara, "don't use boiling water": it's dry behind the stove !!! tongue
    2. +3
      27 December 2018 15: 39
      Quote: Kot_Kuzya
      In the Russo-Japanese War, the fleet stupidly lost to the Japanese, without any benefit.

      So it was necessary to build a normal fleet. Then they would have won the NEC - because the IJA on the continent has no other supply routes besides the sea.
      1. -2
        27 December 2018 16: 23
        And what about the fleet? The Russian army and without a fleet could win the war by throwing the Japanese out of Korea and Manchuria. If it were not for the mediocre and worthless Tsar rag, then the war could have been won. Just stupidly, the Japanese would run out of resources to continue the war on the mainland, since Russia strategically had an overwhelming advantage in the army.
        1. +2
          27 December 2018 19: 13
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          And what about the fleet? The Russian army and without a fleet could win the war by throwing the Japanese out of Korea and Manchuria.

          Yeah ... like in real life.
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          Just stupidly, the Japanese would run out of resources to continue the war on the mainland, since Russia strategically had an overwhelming advantage in the army.

          But Japan, however, had an overwhelming advantage in transportation capabilities. All the overwhelming advantage of Russia hung on the thin thread of the Trans-Siberian Railway, also torn in the middle by Lake Baikal.
          1. +1
            27 December 2018 23: 47
            In 1938-1939, the thin thread of the Trans-Siberian Railway did not prevent the young Red Army from smashing the samurai to smithereens. If instead of Stalin the country were led by a tsar-rag, then the USSR would have lost to the Japanese, as it was in 1904-1905. Stalin, for example, did not play toys and did not send the Baltic Fleet to the Far East to smash the Japanese fleet. This is how you have to be bruised on your head to send a fleet across half the globe to fight a strong enemy?
            1. +1
              28 December 2018 13: 49
              Quote: Kot_Kuzya
              In 1938-1939, the thin thread of the Trans-Siberian Railway did not prevent the young Red Army from smashing the samurai to smithereens.

              The young Red Army initially held half of its personnel divisions in the Far East. And the scale of the 1938-1939 clashes is not comparable to a full-fledged war. For instance, rout of samurai in 1939 - this is the crowding out of one Japanese division from Mongolian territory.
              Comrade Stalin ... As expected, there were no divisions in the encirclement, the enemy either managed to withdraw the main forces, or rather, there were no large forces in this area for a long time, and a specially trained garrison was sitting, which is now completely destroyed. ..
              © Voroshilov
              At the same time, in both cases there was no mass transportation of troops with the air traffic control unit - the eastern districts and the front managed on their own.
              And the Trans-Siberian Railway in the 30s was already whole - without a break across Lake Baikal.
              Quote: Kot_Kuzya
              Stalin, for example, did not play toys and did not send the Baltic Fleet to the Far East to smash the Japanese fleet.

              Did Stalin have the Baltic Fleet, which could be sent? I remind you that the RKKVMF were afraid to use even in the Mediterranean, to cover transportation to Spain - because even the Supermarine was stronger than him. What can I say about IJN - the second fleet in the world ...
              Quote: Kot_Kuzya
              This is how you have to be bruised on your head to send a fleet across half the globe to fight a strong enemy?

              Actually, formally 2 and 3 TOEs were stronger than IJN. Especially after the successful actions of "Cupid".
    3. +1
      27 December 2018 21: 26
      Quote: Kot_Kuzya
      And so ... The Russian fleet is not needed. Unless the fleet is needed by uncles who in childhood did not play enough boats.

      Well, you podzagnul it, I am telling you as a "landowner" and who has many years of service behind him. It is the strategic submarine fleet that holds the future of our nuclear triad, and whether you like it or not, missile submarines need to be built and modernized. So the fleet is an objective reality for the first half of the 21st century, and then I cannot predict, because perhaps new types of weapons will appear based on different physical principles.
      1. +2
        27 December 2018 23: 49
        A strategic submarine fleet has a right to exist, as it is part of a nuclear deterrence weapon. But to build aircraft carriers, heavy cruisers and other expensive toys to anything, these are all useless expensive toys for uncles with admiral epaulets.
        1. +1
          28 December 2018 12: 30
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya

          Strategic submarine fleet has the right to exist,

          The strategic submarine fleet not only has the right to exist, but will be the MAIN in our triad, because it is the only one that allows us to place nuclear weapons in the immediate vicinity of the United States and guarantees a retaliation strike. This is what we must proceed from if you are addressing the issue of the correlation of species and genera of the sun.
    4. 0
      28 December 2018 00: 07
      In the Crimean War, the fleet was simply sunk into the sea, since the Russian fleet was useless against the British-French fleet.

      in fact, this is precisely because the fleet did not spend money.
      if there was a normal fleet, the war would end differently.
      1. +1
        28 December 2018 02: 44
        Do you yourself believe in what you wrote? !!!
        Quote: Avior
        in fact, this is precisely because the fleet did not spend money.
        if there was a normal fleet, the war would end differently.

        I wonder how this impoverished, backward Russia could find the money to build an ultramodern and large fleet, which alone would defeat the combined Anglo-French fleet? For your information, the English fleet was then the strongest in the world, and the French second in strength. What you offer is the same nonsense for that time, as it is now proposed to build a fleet that would be stronger than the combined power of the US and British fleets. Lord I thought this is a serious resource, where more or less serious people gather.
        1. +1
          28 December 2018 02: 50
          I'm not talking about that at all.
          I’m about the fact that the war was lost just because the fleet wasn’t normal, and not because it didn’t make sense.
          the reasons why it was not there is a second question.
    5. -1
      28 December 2018 04: 33
      You scratch your ChSV in another place, not in public, okay?
  14. +2
    27 December 2018 15: 13
    Japanese, Polish, Norwegian and Turkish

    What an enormous thing ... here we give the Kuril Islands to the Japanese - and immediately the world-peace will come. Polish - Kaliningrad. Norwegians are all they want. To the Turks ... I would give a base in Armenia, and Armenia itself ... And let them host in Syria. Crimea .. too .. you know, luxury at the present time ... all the troubles are because of it.
    In general, guys, I ... well, as the guarantor of the Constitution .. and I will give the Kemsk parish - it’s not a pity for potential tailors! Everything for the world!
    Hold on, there’s no money for you anyway! And it won’t be, I’ll add.
  15. +1
    27 December 2018 16: 05
    Anyway, the Soviet economy did not endure all this.

    I could not stand it, the poor woman collapsed, there was no money to see in the country ... But the oligarchs earned everything with honest and overwhelming work ...
    The Americans understood that it was impossible to have everything. Must choose.

    And so they had and have

    PS Yes, analytics from God
    PSS And yes, the author can not worry, the fleet of the Russian Federation (well, or those who distribute its finances) is already defined, and these are personal yachts and communication boats
  16. +1
    27 December 2018 17: 34
    Quote: Alexey RA
    under water

    This is precisely the bright spot of the Russian Navy. laughing
  17. -2
    27 December 2018 17: 52
    A good article, a lot of common thoughts, but the fundamental question of the modern fleet of the Russian Federation has been missed ... lack of funds. Lack of funds for aviation and missiles, and the fleet is in third place after the ground forces and chemical defense troops .... so the Russian Federation even allocates too much to the fleet (my opinion is that you need to stop laying new corbles for 10 years, except for submarines and minesweepers ) .... of the fleet’s listed tasks, everything can be delegated simply to the coastal forces except strategic nuclear submarines, and four frigates are quite enough to protect economic and political interests. All other tasks of the fleet are support for solving task number one, that is, the submarine reaching strike positions. You can simply forget about the tasks of active actions of overseas ships in the distant past, because it is impossible for the Russian Federation, although the Papuans have forces and will continue to scare them for a long time.
    1. +1
      29 December 2018 17: 07
      Quote: vladimir1155
      A good article, a lot of common thoughts, but the fundamental question of the modern fleet of the Russian Federation has been missed ... lack of funds.
      It just seems to me that they (means) are not used rationally. For example, now for the construction of 12 corvettes 20380, 2 pr. 20385 and one 20386, the country throws out about 280-285 billion, for 15 units. ships (in fact, the purpose of which is to provide PLO in BMZ, which may be a small exception for project 20386, and that is not a fact). At the same time, the project 20380 itself, for this, in terms of the functionality of weapons, "to put it mildly" is very controversial. He seems to have how (and what, including a helicopter) to detect submarines, but there is nothing to fight with them (considering that the attack range of "Packet-NK" torpedoes does not exceed 18, well, even 20 km)! At the same time, there are still no full-fledged 533 mm TA for the possible use of "Waterfall", nor the UKSK for the use of PLUR, and the cost of construction per unit is already 17 billion. It is certainly possible to improve / modify / supplement this project, but the price will not be less , and even higher ?! Why? An alternative to using the same funds could be the construction of 9 units. corvettes 11661-K (E) with GAS (for ASW in BMZ), as for the Vietnamese Navy (and Zelenodolsk's experience for this is quite fresh), we take into account that 533 mm TA and UKSK (for example, "Dagestan") are already there. The cost of such a corvette PLO BMZ will be about 10-12 (well, a maximum of 13) billion per unit, and this will depend on the cost of the supplied SAC and SAM. Remains "Osa-M", it will be cheap, change to "Broadsword", or "Pantsir-M", etc., the price will rise a little (but I am sure that within the already indicated limits). And if, in parallel with them, 6 units are built, frigates 22350 (such as "Pots or Kasatons") by the efforts of the Kaliningrad "Yantar" (where construction usually goes faster, and less money "disappears" than at the Severnaya Verf), and the Baltic Shipyard (well, or Severnaya shipyard, at worst) let's say 3 units each, then the fleet can get 15 units of new warships for the same amount, but with much greater functions. If I correctly guess the train of thought of the author of the article, then he is just about it. Roughly speaking, there are 15 ships each, and the application possibilities are different.
      1. 0
        29 December 2018 21: 18
        I support, and in general, and the Navy refused them, they are finishing up only what they have already begun, now the main project of the Navy is karakurt
  18. +1
    27 December 2018 18: 29
    here is a promising list of the navy after 2025 Corvettes 20380-85 13 units, Buyan m 12 units, karakurt 9 and more. Frigates 11356 3 pieces, Pots three and more. cruiser Kuzya and Nakhimov plus is still possible from 2x to 4x. BOD 1155 is possible up to 6 pieces, or less up to zero. DEPL 15 and more. Strategic nuclear submarines 13 and more, tactical nuclear submarines 22 and more ........ we see that the picture is redundant on overhead ships, and on the brink of insufficiency on submarines .... a disaster for minesweepers.
    1. +1
      29 December 2018 17: 16
      Quote: vladimir1155
      here is a promising list of the navy after 2025 Corvettes 20380-85 13 units, Buyan m 12 units, karakurt 9 and more. Frigates 11356 3 pieces, Pots three and more. cruiser Kuzya and Nakhimov plus is still possible from 2x to 4x. BOD 1155 is possible up to 6 pieces, or less up to zero. DEPL 15 and more. Strategic submarines 13 and more, tactical submarines 22 and more ........ we see that the picture is redundant on surface ships, and on the brink of insufficiency on submarines .... disaster for minesweepers.
      here are the words -
      on surface ships the picture is redundant
      , I personally perceive it as sarcasm, but with the words
      Quote: vladimir1155
      and for submarines on the verge of failure
      , I agree absolutely. And instead of further construction (that is, to complete the series and that's all. And that's enough to order heresy) Buyan-M, the money for the next defense orders is better to concentrate on MCSAPL, for example, project 971-M.
      1. 0
        29 December 2018 21: 20
        Buyan m I will not pawn anymore, those that have already begun are being completed
  19. +1
    27 December 2018 23: 50
    Quote: kunstkammer
    Japanese, Polish, Norwegian and Turkish

    What an enormous thing ... here we give the Kuril Islands to the Japanese - and immediately the world-peace will come. Polish - Kaliningrad. Norwegians are all they want. To the Turks ... I would give a base in Armenia, and Armenia itself ... And let them host in Syria. Crimea .. too .. you know, luxury at the present time ... all the troubles are because of it.
    In general, guys, I ... well, as the guarantor of the Constitution .. and I will give the Kemsk parish - it’s not a pity for potential tailors! Everything for the world!
    Hold on, there’s no money for you anyway! And it won’t be, I’ll add.

    good good good hi
  20. 0
    28 December 2018 22: 52
    I would recommend the author to re-read once again something about the First and Second World Wars in the Baltic and the Black Sea, as well as Kuzin-Nikolsky, they have everything chewed up, all that remains is to swallow. The MRA was by no means considered "defensive" in the Soviet fleet; on the contrary, along with submarines, it was the main striking power of the fleet. The range of the missile carriers made it possible to operate on the lines on which we were going to contain the foe. Well, the Americans - they blamed the task of fighting mines on their allies. In vain. First, in 1, in the Persian Gulf, the allies did not quickly deal with Iraqi mines. Secondly, some of our submarines may well lay mines off the American coast. Yes, a little at a time, but the place is unpredictable.
    1. 0
      29 December 2018 16: 18
      Quote: Dimax-Nemo
      some of our submarines may well set mines off the American coast
      I'm probably weak, but I have a question - "what"?!? How many SSNS, so to speak, "on the move" and right now could do it? Ash trees are probably really very good, but their high cost and speed of construction by the Northern Shipyard is a reason to think about it (if not for panic at all!). at the same time, not a single 971-M (which could be a good, and cheaper alternative, for the period of construction of a series of 7 "Ash"), on the same Amur is not laid ?! At least 4 would be good for the Pacific Fleet. And then - "the king is naked"!
  21. -1
    29 December 2018 04: 13
    Obviously, the fleet has problems. Obviously, these problems are more than a dozen years old and the prospects are gloomy. Obviously, alternatives must be sought. Obviously, with this money, these alternatives are very small. Chasing a single submarine, for which one torpedo is enough, a ship of several thousand tons is not the most
    the optimal solution, especially if for one torpedo already seventy years ago there was enough MO from fifteen tons. It is technically feasible to rivet a semi-submersible drone and fill them with water. Now there is a lot of talk about network-centric wars, breakthroughs, digitalization and the like crap. And it seems that something like this was already riveted.
    The surface fleet in the Baltic and the Black Sea was blocked during WWII. And now, against NATO, he probably has no chance. A one-time small things can break through and fight.
  22. -2
    1 January 2019 21: 46
    I am civilian. I think that the article and comments have a lot of theory. even warriors are amateurs, because everything is only in exercises at best. only a real combat situation will expose all blunders and shortcomings. IMHO, but it’s better to flaunt the necessary amers so that they can slow down with their military program than to build all kinds of aircraft carriers themselves. as I understand it, America is the leader in the construction of aircraft carriers - 9 years from bookmark to launch. how many Russia will it take to master at least one?
  23. 0
    10 February 2019 20: 12
    Error at the beginning of the article. The USSR could not stand something there. Either a lot of missile carriers, or a lot of critics, now retrospectively smart ones.
  24. The comment was deleted.
  25. 0
    22 February 2019 21: 09
    Of course defense is important because we are usually attacked