Military Review

Makarov pistol replaced by "Boa"

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In the race to replace the "old man" PM in the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, another model of firearms was seriously involved. weapons. The fact that the mass production of the newest Russian pistol for the needs of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, which is intended to replace the Makarov pistol (PM), will begin in the 2019 year, RIA "reported earlierNews"with reference to its own source in the military-industrial complex. This is a gun" Udav ", which was designed by experts of JSC" TsNIIochtomash. "


According to the source RIA News", the interdepartmental commission, which decides on conferring the letter O1, allowing mass production, to a new image, will complete its work in March 2019. After that, it is planned to launch a new Russian pistol into the series. At present, the question is being decided on what kind of production site a new pistol will be manufactured. Three main options are being considered: Vyatskiye Polyany, Kalashnikov and TsNIItochmash.

“The main contenders are Moscow and Izhevsk, while everyone understands that the main technologies and competencies that are necessary to produce a new pistol are from TsNIItochmash,” said the source.

January 5 2019 years official site The Central Scientific Research Institute of Precision Engineering reported that the tests of the new promising pistol complex chambered for 9x21 mm took place from August to December 2018 at the test base of TsNIItochmash JSC (part of the Rostec state corporation) and the Defense Ministry of the Russian Federation testing grounds, located in the Western and Central military districts. According to the developer, the new pistol complex was exposed to various mechanical and climatic factors to check for compliance with the requirements of durability (stability, durability), which were established by the regulatory and technical documentation of the customer. In addition, studies conducted ballistic characteristics of the gun.


Estimated version of the gun "Boa" TsNIItochmash


According to the TsNIItochmash website, the tests confirmed the high performance characteristics of the new pistol, its survivability and ability to function in very harsh, truly extreme operating conditions. For example, it is reported that the gun worked steadily in a very wide range of ambient temperatures: from + 50 to -70 degrees Celsius. According to TsNIItochmash, currently the results of tests of the new pistol complex are under consideration by the state commission.

It can be said that the new pistol was the result of the natural evolution of similar models of small arms, which is associated not only with the progress of technology and design ideas, but also with new challenges of time, which include changes in battle tactics and increased protection of opponents. The weapon, developed under the theme "Boa", is a promising pistol with a trigger mechanism of double action and automatic slide latch. The weapon developed to replace the Makarov pistol was first introduced in 2016. At the same time, there is not so much information about the development of designers of TsNIItochmash JSC. It is reliably known that the pistol complex was created under the cartridge 9x21 mm, characterized by increased power and armor-piercing bullets. The use of such ammunition is one of the main objectives of the development of a new pistol - the ability to confidently hit the enemy's manpower, using modern individual means of armor. In addition to the powerful cartridge, the pistol is distinguished by the presence of a roomy magazine, which is designed directly for 18 cartridges. Shop old PM chambered for 9х18 mm holds all 8 cartridges.

The 9X21 mm cartridge is a Russian central-ignition pistol cartridge with a flangeless cylindrical sleeve with a small taper. This munition was developed by engineers of the Central Research Institute of Precision Engineering in the city of Klimovsk at the beginning of the 1990-s. It is noted that the development of ammunition was carried out from 1992 to 1995 years. The cartridge was originally designed to effectively defeat opponents who are protected by personal protective equipment (body armor, helmets, etc.). The cartridge and some new pistols for it were created in Klimovsk in the framework of research and development in the Grach competition for a new pistol for the Russian armed forces. In this case, the use of the cartridge is quite limited. This cartridge, in addition to the new pistol developed under the theme "Boa", can be used with the Serdyukov self-loading pistol (ATP, Gyurza, GRAU 6P53 index) and the CP-2 "Heather" submachine gun.

Makarov pistol replaced by "Boa"

9х21 mm pistol cartridge РГ054 with armor-piercing bullet, experienced, 1994 year


By the way, a small fact about TsNIItochmash and its products. The gold medals won by the men's Russian biathlon team 13 January 2019 of the year in the relay race in Oberhof, Germany, have also been credited to representatives of the company from Klimovsk near Moscow. So biathlete Evgeny Garanichev used when shooting cartridges "Olymp-BI" produced by TsNIItochmash. So it is safe to say that the development of ammunition for various purposes in Klimovsk definitely knows a lot.

As noted in the "Russian newspaper", the team led by Alexander Borisov, the chief designer of the TsNIItochmash, practically did the impossible. In mass and dimensions slightly higher than those possessed by the Makarov pistol, they managed to realize the power of the shot, which is much higher than the one that is typical for the Colt, which is distinguished by significantly larger size and caliber. Most often, a new weapon in Russia is given the name of its creator. But in the case of a new pistol, a scenario seems to be likely, in which it saves the name of the theme in which it was created. "Boa" - this in itself sounds quite menacing. Moreover, the ideas of the outstanding and one of the oldest Russian designers-gunsmiths Peter Serdyukov, which he had previously implemented in the ATP self-loading pistol, formed the basis of the new pistol.

As noted in the "Rossiyskaya Gazeta", in its destructive power, the Russian novelty can become one of the most powerful in the world. The cartridge of the new 9x21 pistol mm is superior to the Makarov cartridge - 9х18 mm. It would seem that the difference is only a millimeter 3, but in reality the difference in the effectiveness of the cartridges is huge. The target range of the new pistol should be about 100 meters, and for the PM it should be no more than 50 meters. At the same time, at a distance of 100 meters, the Russian armor-piercing bullet of caliber 9x21 mm penetrates body armor consisting of two titanium plates 1,4 mm and 30 kevlar layers or a sheet of steel up to 4 mm thick.


Estimated type of gun "Boa" TsNIItochmash


In addition to its destructive power, the new pistol, which was created in Klimovsk under the theme “Boa”, is very elegant, the weapon can be safely called beautiful. We can say that TsNIItochmash decided to take an extraordinary step, since they attracted the team of Vladimir Pirozhkov, an industrial designer with a worldwide reputation, to create the appearance of a new pistol. In the guise of a new Russian pistol chambered for 9x21 mm, you can see its power, as well as the high technical aesthetics of the model. In Russia, they took this step for the first time, while more and more other design bureaus began to involve technical designers in the development of modern weapon systems.

Comparing two promising pistols, which may soon replace the legendary Makarov pistol in the army, TASS military commentator, retired colonel Viktor Litovkin, noted that they are very similar to each other, first of all with their design, and are not inferior Western weapons. This is a new gun "Boa" and Izhevsk gun Lebedev PL-15, which is also actively demonstrated by the Kalashnikov Concern at various weapon exhibitions. “The ergonomics of the weapon are very similar, the pistols are adapted for firing both right and left hands, in particular, due to the convenient location of the fuses on both sides,” Litovkin quotes channel site "Star".

Among the main advantages of the recently completed cycle of state tests of the Boa pistol, one can single out a large volume of the magazine (the Boa’s 18 cartridges versus the 14’s Lebedev’s pistol). In terms of special operations or hostilities, this may have an important role. True, this also explains the greater weight of the weapon chambered for 9х21 mm says Viktor Litovkin. Among the differences, the TASS expert highlighted the high power of ammunition from the pistol created by the designers in Klimovsk. According to Litovkin, this is a few milligrams more gunpowder, which affects the growth of muzzle energy and the initial velocity of the bullet.


PL-15 concern "Kalashnikov"


“If we talk about the cartridge itself for each of the pistols, it can be noted that their diameter is traditional and is 9 mm, but there is a difference. The Boa's cartridge is longer, and therefore more powerful: the latter has a sleeve length of 21 mm, and Lebedev has a traditional Parabellum cartridge - 9х19 mm. In addition, you can select the type of ammunition: the "Boa" box-shop on 18 cartridges, the gun Lebedev - on 14 cartridges. Plus, the submarine pistol, due to the smaller magazine volume and the mass of ammunition, weighs less, on the order of 730 grams, and with a loaded magazine - about a kilogram. “Boa” weighs more than 1100 grams, ”the expert noted. Summarizing all the above, Viktor Litovkin stressed the fact that both pistols are similar and should be chosen only on the basis of personal preferences of the shooter.

It cannot be ruled out that both the pistol, the Boa, and the PL-15 will be adopted by the Russian army and will be replaced by the Makarov pistol, which was put into service back in 1951. Earlier in January, the 2018 of the year, the A-545 and A-762 assault rifles were adopted by the Russian Special Operations Forces, while the competing models of automatic weapons, the AK-12 and AK-15, were adopted by the Russian army as combined arms. It is not ruled out that in case of adopting the submarines, the submarines PL-15 and BoA will also be divided according to their use, or the choice of personal weapons will be left directly to its owner.
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  1. Strashila
    Strashila 15 January 2019 05: 46
    +3
    "They are very similar to each other, primarily in their design, and are in no way inferior to Western models of weapons", it turns out that weapons are chosen for aesthetic properties, so that they look gorgeous with Yudashkin's uniform. PM has always been valued for its reliability in all conditions. And the standards of cartridges for 9 mm have bred 18, 19, 21 mm, the rear will be absolutely delighted.
    1. inkass_98
      inkass_98 15 January 2019 07: 04
      +3
      So these cartridges are in flight of three types for a long time already, under 9x19 GSh-18 and ПЯ are developed and used, the ATP is also in service with the special services. If the new pistols are simply smashed into departments (the Ministry of Internal Affairs is unlikely to need a pistol chambered for 9x21 under normal conditions, 9x19 is suitable in various versions), then there will be no confusion.
      And the operators of the weapon are not entirely to confuse the PM cartridge, Parabellum and 9x21, as I believe.
    2. ad-hoc
      ad-hoc 15 January 2019 08: 04
      +4
      Design implies ergonomics, i.e. how convenient it is to use a weapon, and not just the appearance.
    3. Proxima
      Proxima 15 January 2019 16: 43
      +6
      Quote: Strashila
      "they are very similar to each other, primarily in their design

      You yourself understand that a change of small arms is a financially terrible thing for the state!
      What's wrong with Makarov?
      Reliability. Makarov’s pistol can be practically “killed” by ruthless exploitation, but he will nevertheless continue to work! Simplicity of design. Makarov’s pistol consists of only fourteen details - even a beginner can assemble-disassemble.
      Safety of use. The creator of the gun made sure that the user did not accidentally shoot himself any of the parts of the body and come up with triple protection system from a random shot.
      Caliber. The nine-millimeter Makarov pistol, which provides a high degree of stopping actions.
      Constant readiness for use. Makarov pistol is one of the first to create a system double-action trigger.
      Power. Makarov’s pistol is comparable in power to American 38-caliber revolvers, and this weapon is rather strong.
      Firing accuracy. A shooter endowed with at least basic shooting skills is able to get into a Makarov pistol in a target within a radius of 15 m.
      The stopping effect of a bullet. A bullet fired from a Makarov pistol is literally breaks through the body of the enemy through. By the way, she quite successfully shoots and some types of body armor.
      And you can also say that in Finland, the Makarov pistol, along with the Glock 17, CZ-85 and Beretta 92F pistols, is one of the four pistols that are required for mastering practical training courses. Besides, PM became the first ever model of small arms that traveled to space. The pistol was included in the set of property and equipment of Soviet cosmonauts on the Vostok spacecraft.
      And naturally, special forces love him. Spit on a gun with high accuracy. Spetsura is also lying in the mud and when "Makarov" shook off the dirty slurry - he must shoot! Sense then in other advanced pistols. what
      1. Proxima
        Proxima 15 January 2019 17: 39
        +1
        The next "Boas" will come and go, but "Makarov" will remain! good
      2. John22
        John22 15 January 2019 19: 53
        +2
        PM consists of 30 parts. He has only 7 springs. And the cartridge is still rather weak in punching action. Even with a steel core.
      3. Simargl
        Simargl 16 January 2019 00: 47
        +1
        Quote: Proxima
        Makarov's pistol consists of only fourteen parts - even a beginner can assemble-disassemble.
        Even less the springs and the magazine - more.
        Throw the shutter on the frame - this is almost all modern so understand.

        Quote: Proxima
        The nine-millimeter Makarov pistol provides a high degree of stopping power.
        Not just the caliber provides a stopping effect.

        Quote: Proxima
        Makarov’s pistol is one of the first to create a double-action trigger system.
        Is this if revolvers do not count? Nagan was even a double action.

        Quote: Proxima
        Makarov’s pistol is comparable in power to American 38-caliber revolvers, and this weapon is rather strong.
        Compare. Not weak. Twice as powerful as 5,6LR.

        Quote: Proxima
        A shooter endowed with at least basic shooting skills is able to get from a Makarov pistol into a target within a radius of 15 m.
        And from flint it is possible to miss?

        Quote: Proxima
        A bullet fired from a Makarov pistol literally breaks through the enemy’s body through and through.
        wassat Come on! Wunderwafel some kind. And what about the others?

        Quote: Proxima
        By the way, she quite successfully shoots and some types of body armor.
        If it gets into the straps? Only a joint venture with a sub-caliber if ...

        Quote: Proxima
        Spit on a gun with high accuracy.
        Prala! The main thing is noise!
    4. Astra wild
      Astra wild 17 January 2019 20: 19
      +1
      Forgotten: 9x17 for "Baikal"
  2. polar fox
    polar fox 15 January 2019 06: 13
    +1
    like an army, probably the most ono.a what for the Ministry of Internal Affairs? PMM +++?
    1. soul
      soul 15 January 2019 08: 27
      +2
      Quote: polar fox
      like an army, probably the most it

      I think just the opposite. You won’t be at war with this pistol - with the same AK, it doesn’t make any comparison, and as a last chance, a GSh with a weight of only half a kilogram will do.
    2. vvnab
      vvnab 15 January 2019 10: 54
      0
      Quote: polar fox
      like an army, probably the most ono.a what for the Ministry of Internal Affairs? PMM +++?

      PL-15k
  3. Slon1978
    Slon1978 15 January 2019 07: 50
    +6
    It is strange to position a retired colonel, a TASS observer, as an "expert". The "expert" obviously came to his conclusions solely on the basis of photographs, which he did not even examine very carefully, neither one nor the other was holding a pistol in his hands, and yet both machines must be compared in practical tests. In my opinion, both pistols are just very different (open trigger and closed trigger, low recoil line relative to the shooter's hand, which guarantees a small toss and quick return to the aiming line and a standard recoil line, coupled with a powerful cartridge), different weights, different cartridges. These pistols will definitely differ greatly in their high-speed shooting efficiency and shooting comfort - here the PL-15 will probably be preferred. The power of the shot and reliability are probably the Boa's preference (since it has passed the cycle of state tests, and the PL-15 has not yet been). The resource and accuracy of both pistols must be compared by shooting, data on the PL-15 have already been published. The aesthetics of both samples are on the level, although the bluing and workmanship of the exhibition sample "Boa" raises questions, however, intensive tests have affected here, if a heavily used sample is photographed.
    1. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 15 January 2019 14: 33
      +4
      Cartridge 9x19 7N31 is absolutely sufficient. The project "Boa" under 9x21 looks like a TSNIITOCHMASH cut of the military budget.
      1. John22
        John22 15 January 2019 20: 00
        +1
        Yes, the 9x19 7H31 cartridge has an armor-piercing core. And shooting them from GSh-18 showed good penetration and body armor and steel plates up to 8 mm.
      2. 4thParasinok
        4thParasinok 13 February 2019 00: 38
        0
        Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
        Cartridge 9x19 7N31 is absolutely sufficient. The project "Boa" under 9x21 looks like a TSNIITOCHMASH cut of the military budget.

        Duck is not only a horse, but a pig understand wink
    2. 4thParasinok
      4thParasinok 13 February 2019 00: 37
      0
      Quote: Slon1978
      Shot power and reliability are probably the preference of the Boa constrictor (since it has passed the state test cycle, but the PL-15 is not yet).

      The boa constrictor passed only proving ground (and not military) trials only now, and the PL-15 has been undergoing military and proving ground tests for half a year already 10 months ago. For the army, there are 2 types of state tests - proving ground and military. For adoption, you need to go through both types.
      For those interested: the first batch of AK-12 was shipped to the troops in December 18th
      1. 4thParasinok
        4thParasinok 15 February 2019 17: 41
        0
        By the way, in which of the articles is a lie, in this or this: https://topwar.ru/151508-samozarjadnyj-pistolet-udav-novinka-dlja-armii-ili-proekt-bez-buduschego.html
        Briefly, it says that at the end of December they were still awaiting permission for field tests, but in this one that they had been going on since August.
        I wonder who is lying, Ryabov or Yuferev?
  4. Slon1978
    Slon1978 15 January 2019 08: 16
    +4
    Let's take a closer look at "Boa". The barrel oxidation is very subtle, it casts a blue - there will be scratches and abrasions, even with a relatively new pistol. The different clearance of the bolt cover from the frame at the muzzle and the hammer is very confusing - it is different, it is clear that it is noticeably larger for the hammer. This is either a "culture of production", or the casing has already been filled up after shooting. Photo in a case - if you already decided to put a pistol in a case for a photo, then the case should be shaped like the best manufacturers, and you have a pistol on flat foam rubber, because if you close such a case, the pistol will dangle in the box without molding. PBS closes sights, how to make an aimed shot from it?
    1. soul
      soul 15 January 2019 08: 33
      0
      Probably both the case and the silencer in the photo are just for presentation - they took what was
    2. psiho117
      psiho117 16 January 2019 02: 45
      +1
      Quote: Slon1978
      PBS closes sighting devices, how to make an aiming shot from it?
      because the "silencer" and "target designator" are used here as a means to give the image of the pistol a "trend".
      Unlike Stechkin, no one here thought how to shoot from it with this PBS.
      So all this is a balcony
  5. Shopping Mall
    Shopping Mall 15 January 2019 09: 17
    +14
    The Makarov pistol will not be replaced with the Boa constrictor. It is rather a development of the Gyurza line. Who in their right mind wants to carry around such a fool all the time? This is a special forces weapon for solving specific tasks.

    The main problem of Russian pistols - disgusting workmanship. According to the instructor for GSH-18 1500 shots - and for the overhaul of the plant. Glock-17 doesn’t even notice such a nastrel, problems appear after 100 000 - 200 000 shots. Is the difference palpable? Yes, and for the comfort of the equipment store, shooting Glock ahead. At Yarygin, sometimes the shop from one pistol does not fit the other, maybe now, with an increase in the series they worked.

    Normal Russian-made pistols will appear only if there is a civilian market and private companies.

    And that you were given aiming ranges 50 m - 100 m.? It is possible, like a Mauser, to set the bar per kilometer. Pistol melee weapon, more important is ergonomics, which provides quick removal (does not cling to anything), convenient reloading (drop-down magazine, wide neck, notches on the gate, convenient gate stopper). Well, reliability ...
    1. vvnab
      vvnab 15 January 2019 10: 57
      +1
      Quote: AVM
      Normal Russian-made pistols will appear only if there is a civilian market and private companies.

      Well, yes, because all the previous history confirms this! After all, PM, APS and AK with SVD became the best examples of shooter, at one time, precisely because of the free market! )))
      1. Shopping Mall
        Shopping Mall 15 January 2019 11: 49
        +5
        Quote: vvnab
        Quote: AVM
        Normal Russian-made pistols will appear only if there is a civilian market and private companies.

        Well, yes, because all the previous history confirms this! After all, PM, APS and AK with SVD became the best examples of shooter, at one time, precisely because of the free market! )))


        All of the above samples have been developed due to the length of time on a huge volume of state order. In the early stages, they had a lot of problems. The design and technical processes licked for many years.
        As for PM and APS, then to say that this is something outstanding is quite difficult.

        From the point of view of the state, a pistol is not the most important tool. Ordinary police and PM in most situations is enough. It would be better if they were actively trained to shoot, although the 200 cartridges per person would be used per month. And when I see an employee of the faculty with AK, I tremble shudder. I can imagine what will happen when the yesterday's draftee starts firing from him on the street, and where high-speed bullets with a tendency to rebound will fly.
        For special forces, Yarygin and GSh and other samples are also suitable, provided they are of high quality production. The military needs something compact, the same GSh-18. It all comes down to workmanship. And by the way, judging by the OOP (traumatics) market, private traders are still more inclined to development than the state. holdings. Compare at least the traumatic PM (MR-79-9TM) from the Kalashnikov concern or the all-milled P-M17T from Uralmekhkomplekt.
    2. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 15 January 2019 14: 38
      +3
      It would be better if they bought a factory from Glock and adjusted the production of pistols under license with the proud RUSSIAN Cyrillic alphabet on the shutter. Glock 31 with a special barrel under the chamber 9x19 will completely digest 7N31, if Glock 31 calmly eats native .357 Sig.

      On Glock 17, you can order a barrel on the IGB Austria even under the PM-9x18 chamber.

      http://www.igbaustria.com/configurator-g17.html
      1. Shopping Mall
        Shopping Mall 15 January 2019 14: 49
        +3
        Quote: Horse, people and soul
        It would have been better if they bought a factory from Glock and started producing pistols under license with a proud CYRILLIAN RUSSIAN on the bolt.


        Now most likely they will not sell, the sanctions ... In Orsis, in my opinion, there is a large-node assembly of Glokov for athletes. The price in Russia is wild - about 200 000 p., I.e. at the current rate of 3000 $ (in the US, the order of 500-600 $). I don’t know what it is - a tax, customs duties, discarding licenses for sale or greed but 5-6 is a multiple price difference ...
        And yes, Glock is a fairy tale!
        1. Horse, people and soul
          Horse, people and soul 15 January 2019 16: 01
          +1
          Austrians are traditionally well disposed towards Russia. Glock 17 costs mere mortals 640 euros, and for police, military and paramedics, ambulances are sold for personal use at 350-400 euros.

          A used Glock costs about 400 euros. For what you buy a used Glock, for that you sell it. Demand is steady. Sales offers must be caught.
        2. George_K
          George_K 16 January 2019 23: 29
          0
          and cz from which Rogozin shot himself a leg?
      2. 4thParasinok
        4thParasinok 13 February 2019 00: 46
        0
        Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
        It would have been better if they bought a factory from Glock and started producing pistols under license with a proud CYRILLIAN RUSSIAN on the bolt.

        And then some leitekh in Nizhnevartovsk drop this unit on the steps of the barracks and will be imprisoned for damage to state property.
        For your information, a fall on a hard surface at -50 can lead to a cracking of the Glock framework, and this is not a fake, because such cases were in Alaska and Canada.
  6. Zvonarev
    Zvonarev 15 January 2019 09: 31
    +4
    "According to Litovkin, this is several grams more gunpowder, which affects the increase in muzzle energy and muzzle velocity."
    This is how much gunpowder in this cartridge? To equip a cartridge of 20 calibers (20x70) you need 1,5-1,6 grams ... Or is a 9x21 cartridge more voluminous than a smooth-bore?
    1. Simargl
      Simargl 15 January 2019 14: 33
      +4
      Quote: Zvonarev
      To equip a cartridge of 20 calibers (20x70) you need 1,5-1,6 grams ... Or is a 9x21 cartridge more voluminous than a smooth-bore?
      In 9x18 0,25g., In 9x19 to 0,5g, in 9x21, I think, no more than 0,7g, but rather - 0,6.
      Actually, this is a cartridge licked from the Israeli 9x21 IMI, which was developed in 1984.
      1. gross kaput
        gross kaput 19 January 2019 12: 17
        0
        Quote: Simargl
        Actually, this is a cartridge licked from the Israeli 9x21 IMI, which was developed in 1984.

        Actually not, they only have in common the digital formula of the simplified notation 9X21.
        Different cartridges, with different sizes (except for the same sleeve length) and for different purposes - RGO52 was created precisely as a powerful pistol cartridge superior to both the PM cartridge and the 9X19NATO cartridge, the 9mm IMI cartridge, the same 9mm FIOCCHI, was created as a complete analogue of 9X19. With the exception of the length of the sleeve, all other dimensions are completely similar to 9X19, the maximum pressure completely corresponds to 9X19 - it was created specifically for the civilian market in countries where it is forbidden to use calibers adopted for civilian weapons (Israel, Italy) as a result, the designers took the path of least resistance - lengthened 9X19 sleeve 2 mm drowning a bullet deeper by the same 2 mm, as a result, for the civilian market it is possible to freely produce the same models as for the army and the police, the only difference of which will be chamber, all other parts including the store work as well as on the standard 9X19.
        PMK tables for these cartridges
        https://bobp.cip-bobp.org/uploads/tdcc/tab-iv/tabivcal-en-page20.pdf
        https://bobp.cip-bobp.org/uploads/tdcc/tab-iv/tabivcal-en-page28.pdf
        1. Simargl
          Simargl 19 January 2019 17: 18
          -1
          Quote: gross kaput
          9mm IMI cartridge aka 9mm FIOCCHI was created as a complete analog 9X19
          Those. ours perverted the idea ... wassat
      2. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul 19 January 2019 15: 09
        0
        Actually, this is a cartridge licked from the Israeli 9x21 IMI, which was developed in 1984.


        Not at all. The Western 9x21 IMI is an anemically charged 9x19 of the beginning of the 20th century without any + P and + P + for countries where the law forbids civilians to use calibers used by the military.

        The Russian 9x21 is the Makarov caliber of a bullet in a cartridge case loaded at once almost full .357 Magnum for energy. The fact is that in the 70-80s in the USSR they bought a large batch of French revolvers (two models Manurhin MR73 and Manurhin MR88) .357 Magnum caliber for special forces. The new Russian 9x21 cartridge was supposed to replace these revolvers with pistols.
        1. Horse, people and soul
          Horse, people and soul 19 January 2019 15: 23
          0
          Manurhin MR88 is a French copy of the Ruger GP100, which is manufactured by precision injection molding. Made like a tank, indestructible, unlike Smith, which underlies the Manurhin MR73.

          Special forces in arms still have them.

    2. frog
      frog 15 January 2019 18: 36
      0
      According to Litovkin, this is several milligrams more than gunpowder, which affects the growth of muzzle energy and the initial velocity of the bullet.

      It is necessary to quote for sure ....
      1. Zvonarev
        Zvonarev 16 January 2019 11: 04
        +1
        It’s also good to read the original, and not the later revised version ... And for reference: I did not quote, but copied. Oh, what does a million mean, and in this case, 9x18 and 9x21 in terms of weight of gunpowder differ by 0,3-0,35 g. In your opinion, 300 milligrams is a few?
        1. frog
          frog 16 January 2019 11: 22
          0
          So I could read the original, but alas, I saw only with milligrams .....
          As for not knowing you different designations did not even stutter))))
          "Several" is not in my opinion, but "according to Litovkin" .... Actually, it is a little strange to take newspaper experts seriously, but this is everyone's personal business. And the remark (certainly not a complaint))) was just for the copy / quote in terms of its some discrepancy, no more. Until the revised version, alas, I did not read this "eusaerta". If this upsets you, please accept my apologies ...
        2. gross kaput
          gross kaput 19 January 2019 12: 29
          +1
          It is at least not serious to evaluate the capabilities of a cartridge by weighing gunpowder - corny different gunpowders have different gravimetric density, not counting the different characteristics of combustion and pressure of different grades of gunpowder. More or less, the potential of the cartridge can be estimated by the volume with the bullet planted - 9X18 depending on the type of bullet 0,43-0,56 cm3, 9X19
          0,516-0,637 см3, 9Х21 0,58-0,723см3
  7. senima56
    senima56 15 January 2019 11: 29
    +2
    At one time, the SPS pistol, using the same cartridge 9x21, did not go to the troops because of the high cost of ammunition! It is used in a limited number by the special forces of the Ministry of Defense, the FSB and the Ministry of Internal Affairs. Most likely, the "Boa constrictor" will use the same structures to a limited extent, because the 9x21 cartridge remains expensive and uncommon. And the PL-15 (15K) will go to the Army, if our MO leadership has enough wisdom (which I really hope). The Ministry of Internal Affairs definitely needs the PL-15K.
    1. Simargl
      Simargl 15 January 2019 15: 32
      0
      Quote: senima56
      Most likely, the "Boa constrictor" will use the same structures to a limited extent, because cartridge 9x21 remains expensive and uncommon.
      With 9x18 played enough. Weak and problematic even for simple automation (too small ratio of length to diameter).
      9x19 is good and widespread, but the whole world has been looking for a replacement for about 40 years.
      9x21 was developed in Israel, ours decided to try it too.
      It may well become as common as 9x19, at least in the army and police.
      .366 is getting cheaper, although even one of its plants produces ...
    2. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 19 January 2019 16: 01
      0
      The SPS pistol was supposed to replace the French Manurhin MR73 .357 magnum revolvers with specials .70 Magnum, bought by the USSR in the mid-9s, which were in turn to replace the Browning High Power 19xXNUMX (still not paramedum by the NATO), which was considered weak for the specials.
    3. 4thParasinok
      4thParasinok 13 February 2019 00: 58
      0
      Quote: senima56
      using the same 9x21 cartridge, did not go into the army because of the high cost of ammunition!

      he did not go for another reason - it was created precisely as a special cartridge for the only task - to pierce light body armor. Light bullet with high velocity and tungsten "awl". But if they used the whole set of bullets from 9x19, increasing the total length of the cartridge by the same 2 mm, then it would have a chance of existence, something in between 9x19 and 9 ZIG.
  8. fighter angel
    fighter angel 15 January 2019 12: 02
    +4
    "... or the choice of personal weapons will be left directly to its owner."
    Yeah! SHCHAZZZ ...
    Author, do not write nonsense!
    Personal weapons are not a set of "soap-and-mouth" accessories!
    Everything is done by order!
  9. av58
    av58 15 January 2019 12: 48
    +10
    I can’t understand why we should launch a new 9x21 pistol in production.
    "Gyurza" is quite enough, the caliber is rare, it complicates the logistics unnecessarily.
    This makes no sense.
  10. Avior
    Avior 15 January 2019 12: 50
    0
    the gun has outlived itself as a military weapon.
    except for the special forces.
    As a self-defense weapon for PM officers, it is in no way inferior in principle to any new pistol, for the reason that both PM and new pistols are infinitely far from the capabilities of modern military weapons, including PP for self-defense, and even more so assault rifles.
  11. Kot_Kuzya
    Kot_Kuzya 15 January 2019 14: 25
    +4
    Well, how can we do without these fashionable and glamorous Weaver and Picatinny rails. As if a policeman or an officer would be carrying a pistol with an attached flashlight or target designator. Over there in the United States, where there is an abundance of weapons, and even then the cops wear simple pestles without flashlights, laser pointers and collimators. These rails are needed for commercial pistols, where fans of weapon tuning like to hang everything they can on it, so that it was "yo, how cool, dude!":

    Moreover, even without gadgets, this gun weighs one and a half times heavier than the PM, and no one will agree to constantly carry this fool on himself. For an ordinary policeman, such a gun is unnecessarily heavy, for a military officer in a peaceful environment it is also unnecessarily heavy, and in a combat situation the officer will carry an assault rifle with him, which is more accurate, more powerful and more convenient. Even in order not to be captured alive, it’s better to carry a grenade with you, you don’t have to kill yourself with a gun, but a grenade explosion at point-blank range is one hundred percent death, plus a couple more enemies you can hook on, or even take with you to the next world. So stupidity is the replacement of PM with some other pistol, there will be zero benefits from this, but a lot of money will be spent in vain.
    1. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 15 January 2019 14: 45
      +2
      This is the "Desert Eagle", which is nowhere in service and was developed as a sports pistol for shooting at 50 meters.

      The power of the .50 Action Express cartridge is such that after 500 rounds the return spring must be changed.

      What is the difference - this particular gun without gadgets and the gun with gadgets?
      The difference is what exactly the average shooter will get on his forehead - a barrel or a collimator sight.

      laughing

      And if so? Glock in the KPOS carbine kit.

      1. Kot_Kuzya
        Kot_Kuzya 15 January 2019 15: 10
        +3
        To make a carbine from a pistol, and even a sniper one, is perversion and stupidity. A pistol is a melee weapon; it is not intended for firing, not only at long-range, even at medium distance. To make a carbine from a pistol is like making a spear from a dart, but to make a sword from a dagger, or trying to train a rooster to become an eagle, or trying to make holes in a concrete for dowels with a screwdriver. No one in their right mind will climb with a dart against a spear-bearer, or with a knife against a swordsman, and no one will make an eagle out of a rooster or make holes for dowels with a screwdriver. And all these attempts by weapons ... to make a rifle with a pistol that fights equally with AK and M4 are comparable to Tukhach’s dream of making universal divisional cannons that equally successfully destroy infantry, tanks and aircraft, that is, complete nonsense and stupidity.
        1. Horse, people and soul
          Horse, people and soul 15 January 2019 15: 21
          0
          You do not understand why this is done. This is done in order to increase the effectiveness of shooters with pistols several times at once without a long and expensive training and without unreasonable expenditure of cartridges with PP.

          The armed forces of the warring country itself do not agree with some couch experts.

          IDFs use the KPOS carabiner kit.

          laughing

          1. Kot_Kuzya
            Kot_Kuzya 15 January 2019 15: 45
            0
            Ah, does the IDF use for EDUCATION? !!! Well, maybe then, according to your logic, you need to adopt the Blum machine gun, firing a small gun?
            And in general, I have been to Israel and traveled to many hot spots, and everywhere people used machine guns in battle, not pistils. If the pestles were so good, then soldiers in wars over the past 400 years would go on the attack not with a long drill in the form of an arquebus, a musket, a rifle, a carbine and an assault rifle, but with a pistol in their hand. The pestle is good for civilian use, and then it should be as light as possible, as miniature as possible, and as simple as possible. By the way, will you be a knifeman who claims that a knife is more effective than a sword, saber and sword?
            1. Horse, people and soul
              Horse, people and soul 15 January 2019 16: 32
              +1
              By the way, will you be a knifeman who claims that a knife is more effective than a sword, saber and sword?


              Distort.

              Why did the samurai wear two daiso swords (short and long)? Where it is convenient to use short - used short, and where long - used long.

              The same reason why a short boarding blade was adopted on the sailing fleet, and not a long cavalry saber.

              There are places where a short spread weapon is better than a long one.

              That's all.

              hi
              1. Kot_Kuzya
                Kot_Kuzya 16 January 2019 00: 50
                0
                A short sword was used in the Navy because in the close quarters of a ship with a long sword it was impossible to turn around. As for the samurai, until 1853 the Japanese cooked in their own juice, while Commodore Perry with cannons made them open to the world on their own. So to give an example of the Japanese is incorrect, since by 1853 the whole world had already refused cavalry attacks, and rifled breech-loading rifles were already used, aiming at 500 m and firing at 10 rounds per minute.
                1. Horse, people and soul
                  Horse, people and soul 16 January 2019 00: 57
                  +1
                  You yourself started the topic of knives.

                  laughing

                  However, melee weapons were at all times and the Japanese are by no means an exception. Indoors and during boarding (yes, the Japanese also had naval battles) they used what was more convenient. Short sword. Well, on a visit, the long sword was generally left to the servants of the host country. Here already, yes, the Japanese are in their own juice. A short sword was always at hand.

                  That is, in the cramped conditions of rooms and corridors, a gun is much more widespread than a machine gun, and getting a turn of ricochets into a loved one is not especially a hunt for anyone.

                  hi
                2. 4thParasinok
                  4thParasinok 13 February 2019 01: 04
                  0
                  Quote: Kot_Kuzya
                  So to give an example of the Japanese is incorrect, since by 1853 the whole world had already refused cavalry attacks

                  laughing I didn’t think that you know a bad story.
            2. Simargl
              Simargl 16 January 2019 00: 55
              +2
              Quote: Kot_Kuzya
              If the pestles were so good, then soldiers in wars over the past 400 years would go on the attack not with a long drill in the form of an arquebus, a musket, a rifle, a carbine and an assault rifle, but with a pistol in their hand.
              You will not believe! WWII - a very large number of "pistils" in the form factor of a submachine gun. Yes, the dimensions are not deTSkie, but the PPK (Kalashnikov submachine gun, oddly enough) was quite compact.
              1. Avior
                Avior 16 January 2019 01: 21
                0
                and not released by anyone.
                PPs are very different from pistols and have found their niche in the field of self-defense, where they surpass pistols many times over.
                1. Horse, people and soul
                  Horse, people and soul 18 January 2019 19: 27
                  +1
                  Initially, PPs were not used for self-defense, but just for an attack to clean trenches and premises.

                  When the enemy is on the other side. But if the hostage story, then PP is not good. Or shoot with PP single. That is why the MP-5 is so popular in specialized units.
                  1. Avior
                    Avior 19 January 2019 22: 38
                    0
                    Well, I write that a pistol with special characteristics is for special forces.
                    as a personal weapon of an ordinary officer, PM is enough for the eyes.
                    Anyway, not a single gun is a weapon against an assault rifle and even a PP.
                    neither in range nor in density of fire.
                    For a long time already, officers of the first line were armed with an assault rifle, machine gun, and so on.
                    In extreme cases, as a weapon of self-defense, PP may be needed for staff, for example, if they really need self-defense.
                    But with a pistol, self-defense against military weapons is none.
                    so there’s no point in upgrading and changing pistols.
                    1. Horse, people and soul
                      Horse, people and soul 19 January 2019 22: 50
                      +1
                      In the NATO armies they carry a machine gun and a pistol at the same time and are taught to quickly switch from one weapon to another. Whatever one may say, sometimes it’s faster to pull out a gun from a holster in the mall (on the chest) than to take out and replace the machine gun’s store or eliminate the delay. Eliminated the danger from the pistol, reloaded the machine and went on. Melee - there is melee. Every second there is a road.

                      The idea that a gun in the army is needed only to shoot himself is 70 years old.
                      1. Avior
                        Avior 19 January 2019 23: 41
                        0
                        the deserter can still be shot. lol
                        in fact, you yourself wrote that a gun is needed only if there is a machine gun.
                        I saw in the year before last in Italy there were such people at every turn in tourist places in Rome and Florence, and in Bologna I saw, and their pistols were also just like that on their chests.
                        but there is a suspicion that it was some kind of army special forces, the guys looked very sharp, they made an impression.
                        we're not talking about that.
                        we are talking about ordinary army officers and pistols specifically for self-defense.
                        Yes, and it’s more useful for an ordinary ordinary to throw cartridges, and not to palm off a gun, in my opinion.
                      2. Horse, people and soul
                        Horse, people and soul 19 January 2019 23: 56
                        +1
                        Nenene ... that's how the Russians look now in Ratnik.

                        The trend, however. Twenty first century.

                        A spare weapon is always better than just ammo for the main one. Well, if the war is not "Zarnitsa" and the hunt to return home alive.

                        So to speak, this experience is the son of difficult mistakes.

                        The steel in addition to the rifle was worn by Americans in World War I. I forgot the name of their dude, who was awarded. A German machine gun raged on the flank. This dude crawled and began to shoot at the calculation of a rifle. The Germans counted his shots. And when the cartridges ran out, they rushed with the officer to take him prisoner. But the dude had a personal 1911 and he put them all down when the rifle was already empty, and there was simply no time to reload.
                      3. Avior
                        Avior 20 January 2019 01: 18
                        0
                        and if the battle does not decrease to 25 meters, then he in vain extends his pestle with several clips instead of having more rounds of ammunition for normal weapons.
                        The gun is needed as an addition for special purposes - for example, you have to shoot among civilians or in cramped rooms, but no one argues with this.
                        and as for 1911 - do you know how many rounds he has?
                        he needed to shoot from a rifle from 100 meters at least, he would easily reload.
                        well, they took him prisoner, but if they just shot him?
                      4. Horse, people and soul
                        Horse, people and soul 20 January 2019 01: 40
                        +1
                        and if the battle does not reduce to 25 meters, then he in vain extends his pestle with several clips


                        Dude returned from the war alive. This of his 1911 saved his life. It is unlikely that the dude was wrong. He has one life and his own.

                        and as for 1911 - do you know how many rounds he has?


                        Dear Beetle, in his book, wrote that the gun is as charged as the shooter has stores loaded with cartridges. As an IPSC athlete, I can confirm that changing a store is a matter of seconds. Much faster than can be done on a bolted rifle with clips.
                      5. Avior
                        Avior 20 January 2019 01: 48
                        0
                        I didn’t load the clips in the bolt rifle, but in the SCS I had to.
                        this happens very quickly.
                        but our conversation is not about that.
                        now, I heard that one of the riding men somehow chopped thirty Germans with an ax, and he needed to be equipped.
                        and also heard a plane shot down from a mortar.
                        need to add to all air defense forces.
                        not serious?
                        agree, you can’t make a system out of isolated cases.
                        the Germans did, and the rate of fire of the pistol then still took place in relation to the rifles of that time.
                        Now a couple of people would press him to the ground in bursts, and the rest would come and take it along with the pestle.
                        instead of a pistol, in a battle a couple of grenades and cartridges is more useful to add more than a pistol.
                      6. Horse, people and soul
                        Horse, people and soul 20 January 2019 02: 05
                        +1
                        If the main weapon fails, then the enemy will collect extra ammunition from the corpse with trophies.

                        crying

                        The reserve pocket does not pull if there is a ticket to return from the war.

                        This corporal York shot almost four stores with a pistol then in the forest.

                        The ax case is wonderful too.

                        The main weapon of man is his will to fight. The remaining objects only project this will onto the enemy.
                      7. Avior
                        Avior 20 January 2019 02: 08
                        0
                        in this case we are talking about replacing PM in the army and police.
                        None of what you wrote confirms, in my opinion, that this makes sense.

                        hi
                      8. Horse, people and soul
                        Horse, people and soul 20 January 2019 14: 26
                        +1
                        It makes sense once again not to step on the rake and learn from the mistakes of others.

                        hi
                    2. Horse, people and soul
                      Horse, people and soul 20 January 2019 14: 41
                      +1
                      Here is a piece of video from the Sieg Sauer Rifle Academy, how to quickly switch from a long barrel to a short barrel. For those who understand the language of the enemy.

                    3. Avior
                      Avior 21 January 2019 09: 20
                      0
                      it's all window dressing.
                      an ordinary soldier does not need any pistol if he does not perform any special mission in cramped rooms or among a crowd of civilians, for example.
                      in all other cases, much more needed extra ammunition hi
                    4. Horse, people and soul
                      Horse, people and soul 21 January 2019 19: 03
                      +2
                      Window dressing is focused to shoot three rounds at 25 meters. About a hundred years ago it would have been alright. In one hand a saber, in the other a gun.

                      But not today.

                      The main weapon refuses, even a Kalash, a pistol for insurance. Not a computer shooter.
                    5. Avior
                      Avior 21 January 2019 20: 03
                      0
                      and what kind of safety net is the pistol against the Kalash of the enemy in battle for an ordinary fighter?
                      especially if he is not a shooter-athlete with a pistol?
                      safety net is the fact that the fighter is not alone, but as part of a unit.
                      and his ammunition is a safety net. and not with a gun against the machine gun in battle
                    6. Horse, people and soul
                      Horse, people and soul 21 January 2019 20: 17
                      +1
                      Do you still mean bayonet, or what?

                      laughing

                      In a village or city, spirit, barmaley, anyone, can jump out of any place, out of any door, hole, and so on. You can be alone with him. He poked a pistol at him and fired several times until he fell. Stayed alive. That's what for.

                      The main weapon is an automatic weapon. But if you hung a gun on the mall, then this is your business. More likely to return alive. And in weight there is not much difference, considering how much to drag on yourself. Usually this is a gun and 3-4 stores.
                    7. Avior
                      Avior 21 January 2019 20: 25
                      0
                      These are 2-3 spare shops for the machine. or 2-3 grenades.
                      much more useful than a gun.
                      an ordinary fighter is fighting in a unit and if he has problems with weapons, he needs to either move to the rear or take weapons from a wounded or dead person.
                      and to run with a pestle, from which he really can’t shoot, except at point blank range, these are only problems for himself and his comrades to create
                    8. Horse, people and soul
                      Horse, people and soul 21 January 2019 21: 15
                      +2
                      These 2-3 additional stores to the machine will be like a dead poultice with a failed machine, and even Kalash gives delays.

                      Do not want to - do not carry a gun. Your decision. But usually people don’t aspire to the cemetery, and even if they don’t put the gun, they get it by hook or by crook in hot spots. Americans so simply drag a personal gun.

                      laughing
                    9. Avior
                      Avior 21 January 2019 21: 25
                      0
                      are we talking about standard weapons?
                      if people do not aspire to the cemetery, they pull cartridges to it.
                      and failures are insured by the fact that not single cowboys are fighting, but the military as part of units.
                    10. Horse, people and soul
                      Horse, people and soul 21 January 2019 21: 37
                      +1
                      As part of the parade units only. And when stripping a parade do not go. Several fighters enter a specific building, a specific door, a specific hole, and not all of them will survive until the end of the operation. Losses are losses. This is not a computer shooter.

                      The experience of the latest local wars - not only the NATO, but also ours carry a pistol with a machine gun. If the state is not supposed to, then they still get it. Extra chance.
                    11. Avior
                      Avior 21 January 2019 21: 40
                      0
                      I understood you.
                      but so we can argue ad infinitum, an argument on personal opinion can drag on for a long time.
                      I think it's worth stopping
                      hi
                    12. 4thParasinok
                      4thParasinok 13 February 2019 01: 20
                      0
                      Quote: Avior
                      I understood you.
                      but so we can argue ad infinitum, an argument on personal opinion can drag on for a long time.

                      there is an opinion based on practice, but there is a built on sofa reasoning. Both in the Second World War and in Afghanistan, the presence of a pistol saved the lives of fighters and officers of street battles more than once, and when digging, they dug. I personally drank with the man whom PM saved when he ran out of ammunition in the AK’s store and did not have time to reload it. And about the Second World War not only read in memoirs, but also heard from veterans in personal conversations.
                      so then stay true to your goal ...
                    13. Avior
                      Avior 13 February 2019 01: 57
                      -1
                      well yes.
                      I heard these stories a hundred times.
                      It was time to remove the PM from the holster, to jerk the bolt and remove it from the fuse, but to insert the horn, no.
                      and instead of PM with cartridges and a holster if you take an additional 2-3 horns, is that how?
                      will it be worse?
                      well, it was in the trench, and if not in the trench, but in the field? he would lie with his pestle as a target, instead of waging a battle.
                    14. 4thParasinok
                      4thParasinok 15 February 2019 18: 09
                      0
                      Quote: Avior
                      I heard these stories a hundred times.
                      It was time to remove the PM from the holster, to jerk the bolt and remove it from the fuse, but to insert the horn, no.

                      only a woodpecker will go into battle with an unloaded weapon and without a cartridge in the chamber, but the gun is removed from the fuse while it is displayed on the line of the shot.
                      It’s immediately obvious that all your knowledge is from toys, and not from real life. Another couch specialist.
                      Tell me honestly, have you ever seen an Afghan officer? I explain, the Afghan is a form worn in Afghanistan. It differs from the first camouflage in fabric, colors and panama instead of a cap. So for your information, an internal holster was sewn on her chest, not only on the jacket, but also on the pea jacket. That's exactly where the gun was worn in the field. I will say more, I tried it myself, it’s much more convenient than in a belt cabaret, you don’t have to unfasten anything and the weight is distributed over the body.
                      Quote: Avior
                      and instead of PM with cartridges and a holster if you take an additional 2-3 horns, is that how? will it be worse?
                      It all depends on the situation, maybe worse
                    15. Avior
                      Avior 15 February 2019 22: 31
                      -1
                      I’m basically not inclined to communicate with people who poke me.
                      and what’s the essence of the matter, keeping a gun under body armor is a powerful move in battle.
                      and for one situation when a gun is useful in battle, there will be a hundred, when two horns are more useful.
                      except perhaps the special forces.
  12. 4thParasinok
    4thParasinok 13 February 2019 01: 08
    0
    Quote: Avior
    here, I heard, one riding ...
    The head is not just to listen and eat ...
  • Kot_Kuzya
    Kot_Kuzya 16 January 2019 08: 53
    -1
    A submachine gun is not a gun. PP is held with two hands, it has a butt, the sighting line and the barrel are relatively long, which increases accuracy. A gun is a gun.
  • Horse, people and soul
    Horse, people and soul 16 January 2019 01: 03
    +2
    Ah, is the IDF using for EDUCATION ?!


    That's just not for training, but to improve efficiency without expensive and lengthy training.

    hi
  • tracer
    tracer 22 February 2019 18: 44
    0
    Why so much hate for carbonated drinks?
  • Simargl
    Simargl 15 January 2019 15: 42
    0
    Quote: Kot_Kuzya
    cops carry simple pistils without flashlights, laser pointers and collimators.
    If a dog is attached to the policeman - the gun may be with a flashlight.
    That's why we need collimators and LCC - I have no idea: there is fire contact up to 15 m in 99% of cases, no one shoots at 50 m.
    Quote: Kot_Kuzya
    no one agrees to constantly drag this fool on himself
    Whatever they give, they will drag it. When they say that Stechkin is popular - no one remembers his mass, especially with the old stock holster and the effectiveness of his weak cartridge.
    1. Kot_Kuzya
      Kot_Kuzya 15 January 2019 15: 50
      +1
      Quote: Simargl
      Whatever they give, they will drag it. When they say that Stechkin is popular - no one remembers his mass, especially with the old stock holster and the effectiveness of his weak cartridge.

      Do not write nonsense. The SA listened to the opinions of pistol users, and after hearing complaints about the APS, they quickly turned off the production of APS, and officers began to wear AK in wartime, since it was more convenient, efficient and more accurate than an APS at times. And in peacetime, the officers were quite happy with the PM, he completely satisfied them. Of course, you can even find fault with the ideal, but the PM was a light, compact, reliable and killer weapon, which was required of a daily carrying pistol.
      1. Simargl
        Simargl 15 January 2019 18: 09
        0
        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
        Do not write nonsense.
        Yeah! And what did Major Roman Filipov carry with him ?!
        Stechkin was redundant for the police because of the automatic fire mode and monstrous for a weak cartridge of mass, and for the 9x18 army it became insufficient with the beginning of the massive use of bulletproof vests.
        9x18 is a purely police and civilian cartridge.
        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
        SA listened to the opinions of users of pistols, and after hearing complaints about APS
        The APS was reliable enough, but no cartridge for the military. The AKS-74U just appeared because it had once adopted an extremely weak cartridge! But it so happened that for the 5,45x39 cartridge the AKS-74U construct is redundant, and for the shot energy it is also wildly heavy: it weighs exactly 2 times more than the PP weighs under the cartridge of the same shot energy (just 9x21 it will be possible to ram up to 1000 J, and the energy of the AKS-74U shot is 1,6 times lower than the AK-74, i.e. less than 1000 J).
        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
        And in peacetime, the officers were quite happy with the PM, he completely satisfied them.
        They would be delighted with TC.
        Quote: Kot_Kuzya
        Of course, you can even find fault with the ideal, but the PM was a light, compact, reliable and killer weapon, which was required of a daily carrying pistol.
        The only minus the PM is the cartridge used. There are no questions to the design.
        9x18 is not convenient for the designer and too weak for the army - in almost all cases, for the police - in many.
        1. Horse, people and soul
          Horse, people and soul 16 January 2019 01: 11
          +2
          9x18 is not convenient for the designer and too weak for the army - in almost all cases, for the police - in many.


          What is it that you don't like cops so much? Or do you think that bandits bare with sharpening go alone. So they have any arsenal, and only the most unfortunate of them are the Makarovs.

          ;ABOUT)

          PM was good for post-war dystrophic men of 60-70 kg of weight and 160-170 cm of growth, and today's elephants of 180-190 cm and more than 100 kilograms. The police gun must stop. So in the 50s he stopped, and today it’s not really, if the elephant is still motivated, armed and under drugs. There is no stopping action on a target without describing the parameters of that target.
          1. Simargl
            Simargl 16 January 2019 06: 12
            0
            Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
            What is it that you don't like cops so much?
            This is what I hinted at?

            Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
            and today's elephants are 180-190 cm and more than 100 kilograms.
            Like BE ... and then such elephants met, in the future it was necessary to work. Or did they plan to starve the whole history of the country?

            Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
            There is no stopping action on a target without describing the parameters of that target.
            According to the upper anthropological bar - this is about 140 kg.

            Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
            in revolvers, as a result of which the gases from the barrel muzzle do not break back through the drum chamber (the drum is a rotating cartridge chamber) back arrow in the face.
            Yes, and the gun will not. Unless a special channel is organized.
            The window of the ejector will still be - it will etch from it.
    2. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 15 January 2019 15: 50
      +1
      That's why we need collimators and LCC - I have no idea: there is fire contact up to 15 m in 99% of cases, no one shoots at 50 m.


      The collimators and LCU are not for long range shooting but for Fast aiming. At 5/10 meters, they shoot intuitively simply towards the target (like with a raking finger on a subject to weave), but at 15-25 meters you already need to aim. So the red dot works faster than an ordinary fly with the whole. I don’t have a red dot on my gun (I’m personally uncomfortable), but I have a red dot on a carbine kit in the RCC division. The gain is significant in comparison with the regular diopter.
      1. Shopping Mall
        Shopping Mall 15 January 2019 16: 15
        +2
        Quote: Horse, people and soul
        That's why we need collimators and LCC - I have no idea: there is fire contact up to 15 m in 99% of cases, no one shoots at 50 m.


        The collimators and LCU are not for long range shooting but for Fast aiming.


        More spear on the pistols uses them when the muffler bank closes sights. In the USA, LCC for Heckler and Koch pistols with two channels - visible and infrared (for night vision devices).
        1. Horse, people and soul
          Horse, people and soul 15 January 2019 16: 25
          0
          Alas, they don’t sell civilians with an IR channel laser. Conventional laser in the laser center - unmasks. And, here, a flashlight, an ordinary one with a strobe light, can help if you quickly move yourself. Will give seconds of time gain.
          1. Shopping Mall
            Shopping Mall 15 January 2019 16: 30
            0
            Quote: Horse, people and soul
            Civilian with IR channel laser, alas, do not sell. Conventional laser in LCC - unmasks.


            The original American may not, and so there are options:
            http://puscopes.ru/dvuhdiapazonnyj-lazernyj-celeukazatel.html

            http://ak-tactical.ru/product/lcu-vector-optics-scgl-04-sc-greenir-laser-combo-sight-/
      2. The comment was deleted.
        1. Wildcat
          Wildcat 16 January 2019 01: 12
          +1
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          Well, shoot 150 feet and look like an idiot. US cops do not wear laser pointers, flashlights and collimators. But YOU are like that, otherwise you wouldn’t carry such nonsense!

          No matter how the police disagree

      3. Simargl
        Simargl 15 January 2019 18: 15
        +1
        Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
        So the red dot works faster than an ordinary fly with the whole.
        LTSU at 25 m ?! Are you seriously?! A collimator - maybe, but seeing the LCC point even at 15 meters is already a problem, especially in bright light.
        Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
        but on the rifle carabiner in the RCC division I have a red dot
        RCC Division - what is it?
        1. Horse, people and soul
          Horse, people and soul 15 January 2019 18: 26
          +1
          Well, "China" is different in that for the most part it imitates objects, and does not produce them. The point size is different. At 25 meters, the point is visible in different conditions - in different ways. At least green, at least red. I don't know what the laser target is for, since the aiming technique is completely different. You only look at the point.

          I use a holographic scope. Sighting mark is more convenient for shooting short and at 25-35 meters. IMHO, LTSU - fopping, especially if not IR (for specials).

          The RCC Division is the Pistol Caliber Carbine IPSC.
        2. Horse, people and soul
          Horse, people and soul 15 January 2019 18: 50
          +3
          LTSU at 25 m ?! Are you seriously?! The collimator - maybe, but here is the point of the LCC


          The red dot "Red Dot" is synonymous with collimator (cheap) or holographic (expensive) sight. LCC is LCC. LTSU is not "Red Dot".
    3. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 15 January 2019 15: 56
      0
      When they say that Stechkin is popular - no one remembers his mass, especially with the old stock holster and the effectiveness of his weak cartridge.


      This choice is "not without fish". Singles Stechkin is better than Makarov, and the weight is ... hard to carry, easy to shoot. This is the case with all pistols. I shoot sports with a Glock 17, but took a try Cheseta Shadow 2 (1300 grams empty) and the exercise seemed like "cheating" (read - doping). It is much easier to shoot with a heavy pistol than with a light one. But ... moving a light pistol from target to target faster, a heavy pistol feels inertia.
      1. Simargl
        Simargl 15 January 2019 18: 18
        +1
        Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
        This choice is "not without fish". Singles Stechkin is better than Makarov
        What is "fish"?
        Both are crutches from "fishlessness", because they do not perform tasks.
        1. Horse, people and soul
          Horse, people and soul 15 January 2019 19: 14
          +3
          Well, yes ... but the reason is different.

          In the USSR and Russia there is no pistol school (use), except for special equipment and IPSC athletes.

          No school -> no correct terms of reference -> we have what we have, several times for the same rake.
    4. 4thParasinok
      4thParasinok 13 February 2019 01: 22
      0
      Quote: Simargl
      That's why we need collimators and LCC - I have no idea: there is fire contact up to 15 m in 99% of cases, no one shoots at 50 m.

      elementary-reduced aiming time arrows with primary and secondary training.
  • Horse, people and soul
    Horse, people and soul 15 January 2019 14: 28
    +3
    The cartridge of the new 9x21 mm caliber pistol is superior to the Makarov cartridge - 9x18 mm. It would seem that the difference is only 3 millimeters, but in reality the difference in the effectiveness of the cartridges is huge.


    This is if you compare 9x21 with PM. But if you compare with 9x19 7H31, of which there are troops, then 9x21 does not have anything outstanding, which 9x19 7H31 would not be able to.

    hi
    1. Simargl
      Simargl 15 January 2019 17: 24
      +1
      Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
      9x21 does not have anything outstanding, which 9x19 7N31 would not be able to.
      There is a problem: modern 9x19 increased power destroys old weapons. The 9x21 format begins with the energies that are available in increased power cartridges for 9x19.
      9x21 can be made with energy under 1000 J.
      1. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul 15 January 2019 18: 36
        +2
        If this and that way you need a new gun (the cartridge destroys the old weapon), then you can make a gun under 9x19 and replace the old weapon with it. And so you need a new gun. And so.

        9mm NATO is not a parabellum. Rather, parabellum only geometrically.

        The maximum permitted pressure in the barrel according to SAAMI and CIP standards at 9mm NATO is higher than that of parabellum.

        The same story with 7H31. 9mm NATO is more powerful than parabellum, and 7H31 more powerful than 9mm NATO.

        Modern western pistols are certified under 9mm NATO (except for the tiniest parabellum pistols). Since the same Glock 31 shoots the family .357 Sig, when replacing the barrel with a (special) barrel with a 9x19 chamber, 7H31 will also shoot.

        There is no point in a new pistol under 9x21, if it is possible to rearm on 9x19, certified on 7H31. Cartridge 9x19 - more versatile.
        1. Simargl
          Simargl 15 January 2019 19: 32
          0
          Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
          9mm NATO is not a parabellum. Rather, parabellum only geometrically.
          This is understandable to the horse ... OH! laughing

          Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
          There is no point in a new pistol under 9x21, if it is possible to rearm on 9x19, certified on 7H31. Cartridge 9x19 - more versatile.
          for 9x19 800 J the maximum, and for 9x21 - the average. Well, over the bullet can be distorted to a wider extent - the sleeve is longer.
          It was not for nothing that the American police rearmament in .40, from which they later made the same .357 Sig.

          Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
          The cartridge 7N31 is sufficient and shooting them with a heavy pistol ... is possible. Well, with light plastic ... it’s not very comfortable.
          The goal of the state is to reduce the nomenclature of consumables. By and large, one would think about returning to the cartridge 7,62x25 with energy increased to 900-1000 J. It so happened that recoil is the effect of the law of conservation of momentum, therefore a lighter bullet will nightmare the arrow less, but when meeting an obstacle, energy will be important.
          In addition, it is important where the axis of the barrel is: it should be as close to the center of mass as possible so that the torque is as small as possible (everyone thinks that there should be a blow to the palm, right?).
          1. Horse, people and soul
            Horse, people and soul 15 January 2019 20: 19
            +3
            It was not for nothing that the American police rearmament in .40, from which they later made the same .357 Sig.


            Duc already back from the forty for 9 mm rearmed. We realized that it’s better to get hit with a less powerful cartridge twice, than miss a more powerful one twice.

            These 9 mm for more than a hundred years have been used for a reason, but because it is the golden mean. There is no point in making a howitzer out of a pistol — there are no elephants to shoot from.

            The Danish patrol Sirius, who has been patrolling Greenland for dog teams for months, is armed with .30-06 M1917 bolt rifles and Glock pistols of 20 caliber 10 mm auto. By polar bears it is effective, but rarely used. And, here, the military and police need to shoot a lot and often. In the gun-man system, the weak link here is man.

            The 7.62x25 cartridge died. His place is in the museum. If the cartridge were "wonderful", it would be used everywhere, like the 9x19. But no. It is produced, but the police and the Armed Forces do not even use the countries of the former socialist camp, if only not in the most poorest countries.

            The short-barreled gun is required to break through a bulletproof vest and to have an armored stopping effect so that the soldiers do not complain "I shoot, I shoot, but he keeps running and running at me ..."
            1. Simargl
              Simargl 15 January 2019 20: 58
              0
              Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
              These 9 mm for more than a hundred years have been used for a reason, but because it is the golden mean.
              These are 9 mm from 17 to 32 mm ...

              Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
              The Danish patrol Sirius, who has been patrolling Greenland for dog teams for months, is armed with .30-06 M1917 bolt rifles and Glock pistols of 20 caliber 10 mm auto.
              Well .30-06 cartridge is not very old. But rifles are already changing.
              10 mm auto - that’s wassat

              Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
              And, here, the military and police need to shoot a lot and often.
              To cops more often if we're talking about a gun.

              Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
              The cartridge 7.62x25 died. His place is in the museum. If the cartridge were "wonderful", it would be used everywhere, like the 9x19.
              Aha! But his work lives on. 5,7 × 28, 4,6 × 30 ... well, Bizon-2-07. I think that with the development of body armor, it is precisely he and the "golden mean" ... it would be possible to tighten up to 6,5 mm ... and develop an intermediate cartridge of the same caliber ... back in 1943 ... Fedorov is already more right 100 years...

              Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
              The short-barreled gun is required to break through a bulletproof vest and to have an armored stopping effect so that the soldiers do not complain "I shoot, I shoot, but he keeps running and running at me ..."
              Not certainly in that way. You need to break through the bulletproof vest and get to the vital organs. And if there is no body armor - do not fly out from the other side.
              1. Horse, people and soul
                Horse, people and soul 15 January 2019 21: 13
                +3
                Not certainly in that way. You need to break through the bulletproof vest and get to the vital organs. And if there is no body armor - do not fly out from the other side.


                Not certainly in that way. It is stopping. An armed man with a broken small heart can still put people around, Mom do not indulge.

                This is for a long barrel and when shooting at 300-500 meters is not important. And for the pistol distance it is important that immediately and immediately - in the blackout.

                FBI requirements for breaking a pistol bullet from 12 to 18 inches.
              2. Horse, people and soul
                Horse, people and soul 15 January 2019 21: 22
                +1
                it would be possible to tighten to 6,5 mm ...


                There is nothing to tighten. It is useless to unpack old stocks, because for a new cartridge (compressed to 6.5mm) there will be different gunpowder, different energy, different pressure in the barrel, a sleeve with thicker walls is needed, etc.

                To use old cartridges is useless.

                If you make a new cartridge, then make it ideal right away from scratch, and not try to squander the military budget again, trying to save it.
                1. 4thParasinok
                  4thParasinok 15 February 2019 18: 52
                  0
                  Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                  +1
                  it would be possible to tighten to 6,5 mm ...

                  There is nothing to tighten. It is useless to unpack old stocks, because for a new cartridge (compressed to 6.5mm) there will be different gunpowder, different energy, different pressure in the barrel, a sleeve with thicker walls is needed, etc.
                  I certainly agree that you need to create a new cartridge, but what kind of "unpacking" are we talking about if these old cartridges have not existed for a long time, they were destroyed 10 years ago.
              3. Horse, people and soul
                Horse, people and soul 15 January 2019 21: 39
                +3
                These are 9 mm from 17 to 32 mm ...


                Still, 9x19 is the undisputed king of the hill, because the area of ​​application is 9x17, 9 Makarov, 9x21 (Western version of 9x19 for countries where civilian circulation of "military" calibers is prohibited), 9x21 Russian (Makarovsky barrel caliber), .38 Super, etc. very limited by geography and number of users.
          2. Horse, people and soul
            Horse, people and soul 15 January 2019 20: 25
            +1
            therefore, a lighter bullet will lessen the arrow, but when meeting an obstacle, energy will be important.


            That's why they try to use calibers 5.7x28 and 4.6x30 for PDW, but not because 9x19 is bad, but because it’s 9x19, which satisfies armor penetration, it’s expensive. They want to reduce the cost. While it doesn’t really work out, the weapons under 5.7 and 4.6 have not yet replaced 9x19. By the way, 5.7 and 4.6 are still more expensive than 9x19 and the main goal - cheapening - has not been achieved.
        2. 4thParasinok
          4thParasinok 15 February 2019 18: 34
          0
          Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
          There is no point in a new pistol under 9x21, if it is possible to rearm on 9x19, certified on 7H31. Cartridge 9x19 - more versatile.
          One hundred years ago in 9x19 there was no universality, for there was only one version of this cartridge, but this is not the problem, but our MO since the 90s has been following the simplest path — stupid copying without reference to domestic realities. In this matter, we have 2 significant differences with NATO, namely:
          1. Our capsule is much tougher. This is what allows you to try on drummers without a spring.
          2. Our propellants are made on a different basis (this reduces "rusting" of the barrel) as a result, at the same burning rate, give a lower maximum gas pressure.
          This means that the army needs a cartridge with a larger cartridge case. Ideally, the sleeve should be increased to 21-23mm, but the bullets are suitable from 9x19.
      2. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul 15 January 2019 18: 44
        +2
        9x21 can be made with energy under 1000 J.


        If you add hexogen, then at least 2000 Joules (just kidding).

        But this makes no sense, since this is a pistol and they shoot from it in a pistol way (without a butt).

        The cartridge 7N31 is sufficient and shooting them with a heavy pistol ... is possible. Well, with light plastic ... it’s not very comfortable.

        I shot from 1911 .38 super and with Glock 32 (compact) .357 Sig with the same Joules. Since 1911 it has been more comfortable. Both that and another 700-800 Joules.
  • Horse, people and soul
    Horse, people and soul 15 January 2019 15: 00
    +3
    Dry numbers

    9x21 cartridge with enhanced charge for factory tests. The cartridge actually used is much weaker.
    Ammunition with enhanced charge designed to test the strength of the locking mechanism of small arms during factory tests. Cartridges "UZ" develop a greater maximum pressure due to the enhanced powder charge. The cartridge "UZ" is equipped with a bullet with a steel core "PS". The bullet of the cartridge "UZ" has the color of the tip in red (known samples of cartridges with the color of the tip of the bullet in blue).


    Since 2006, UZ cartridges have been produced with varnished steel sleeves. Cartridges are packed in cardboard boxes of 30 or 18 pieces. On the packaging, the cartridges have the symbol "9x21 SP10-UZ gzh" or "9x21 SP10-UZ gs", and wooden boxes are marked with the inscription "STRENGTH CHARGE".

    Cartridge characteristic
    Caliber - 9x21;
    Cartridge length, mm - 32,8-33,0;
    Cartridge weight, g - 10,6-10,8.

    Powder charge characteristic
    Type of gunpowder - smokeless, pyroxylin;
    Mark of gunpowder - SEN 20 / 4,80;
    The mass of the powder charge, g - 0,58-0,62;
    The density of loading, g / cm3 - 0,89;
    The maximum pressure of powder gases, kg / cm2 - 3000;
    The shape and dimensions of the powder grain is an ellipsoid-spheroid: - outer diameter, mm - 0,45-0,75.

    Bullet feature
    Type of bullet - semi-shell;
    Bullet weight, g - 6,60-6,74;
    Bullet length, mm - 18,8-19,2;
    The diameter of the leading part of the bullet, mm - 9,02-9,03;
    Lateral load of a bullet, g / cm2 - 10,6;
    Ballistic coefficient of a bullet, m2 / kg - 10,34;
    Bullet shell material - steel plated with tompak;
    Bullet shell mass, g - 1,70-1,85;
    Bullet core material - carbon steel;
    Bullet core mass, g - 3,1-3,5.

    Sleeve characteristic
    The shape and type of the sleeve is cylindrical, flangeless;
    The mass of the sleeve with the capsule, g - 4,34-4,50;
    The length of the sleeve, mm - 21,00-21,15;
    The free volume of the sleeve, cm3 - 1,052;
    The volume of the sleeve with a planted bullet, cm3 - 0,58;
    Case material - steel plated with tompak;
    The method of mounting the bullet is a tight fit.

    additional information
    Cross-sectional area of ​​the bore (gun "CP-1"), cm2 - 0,64;
    Muzzle velocity (gun "SR-1"), m / s - 425-450;
    Muzzle energy of a bullet ("SR-1" pistol), J - 596,3-679,6;
    Marking: the top of the bullet is painted in red or blue.


    Cartridge 9x19 7H31
    In the mid-90s, work began on the creation of armor-piercing bullets for pistol cartridges of 9,0 mm caliber at the State Unitary Enterprise KBP (TsKIB SOO). The experience gained in working out the 9,0-mm PBM cartridges for the Makarov pistol was the basis for the development of a cartridge with a 9,0-mm PBP bullet of increased armor penetration.


    The “PBP” bullet consists of a bimetallic shell with an open head part, a leading part and a bottom part made with a spherical recess in which the core is mounted in an aluminum jacket. The core is made using the 9,0-mm PBM technology. There is an empty gap between the head of the shell and the aluminum jacket, which, when a bullet hits an obstacle, helps to separate the shell from the core with a minimum amount of energy removed from the core.

    During state tests, it was found that the cores of bullets made by a half-shell layout, when the armor is not penetrated, ricochet back with the preservation of dangerous energy up to 70 meters. To eliminate this effect, an annular groove was formed on the head of the core, forming a small ledge, which, if the armor was not broken, leads to the destruction of the shell and core. The “PBP” bullet provides penetration of a steel sheet of St.3 grade 8 mm thick at 10 meters or bulletproof vest III protection class.

    During development, the shape of the shell and core, as well as the method of its manufacture, have repeatedly changed. In 2003, the cartridge was adopted by the Russian army under the index GRAU 7N31 along with the GSh-18 pistol. Prior to 2003, experimental batches of cartridges were produced using bimetallic shells of plant No. 539 (Tula Cartridge Plant). Since 2003, serial cartridges have been produced using bimetallic shells of factory No. 3 (Ulyanovsk cartridge factory), and since 2008, cartridges are marked with the bottom brand of factory No. 335.

    Serial cartridges have a distinctive marking - the color of the tip of the bullet in black and a black stripe on the package. Conventional designation of cartridges "9x19 BPB gzh".

    Cartridge characteristic
    Caliber - 9x19 "Luger";
    Cartridge length, mm - 29,3-29,7;
    Cartridge weight, g - 8,0-8,2.

    Powder charge characteristic
    Type of gunpowder - smokeless, pyroxylin;
    Mark of gunpowder - SEN 20 / 4,80;
    The mass of the powder charge, g - 0,45-0,52;
    Density of loading, g / cm - 0,816;
    The maximum pressure of powder gases, kg / cm2 - 2800;
    The shape and size of the powder grain is an ellipsoid-spheroid:
    - outer diameter, mm - 0,45-0,75.

    Bullet feature
    Type of bullet - semi-shell;
    Bullet weight, g - 4,1-4,2;
    Bullet length, mm - 14,0-14,3;
    The diameter of the leading part of the bullet, mm - 9,02-9,03;
    Lateral load of a bullet, g / cm2 - 8,49;
    Ballistic coefficient of a bullet, m2 / kg - 14,7;
    Bullet shell material - steel plated with tompak;
    Bullet shell mass, g - 1,35-1,50;
    Bullet core material - carbon steel;
    Bullet core mass, g - 2,7-3,0.

    Sleeve characteristic
    The shape and type of the sleeve is cylindrical, flangeless;
    The mass of the sleeve with the capsule, g - 3,54-3,60;
    The length of the sleeve, mm - 18,9-19,1;
    The free volume of the sleeve, cm3 - 0,88;
    The volume of the sleeve with a planted bullet, cm3 - 0,64;
    Case material - steel plated with tompak;
    The method of mounting the bullet is a tight fit.

    additional information
    Cross sectional area of ​​the bore (pistol "Rook"), cm2 - 0,64;
    Muzzle velocity (Rook pistol), m / s - 445-470;
    Muzzle energy of a bullet (Rook pistol), J - 407,5-565,3;
    Punching action: 100% steel sheet of grade St.3 with a thickness of 8 mm per 10 m;
    Average accuracy R50 at a distance of 25 m: <3,0 cm;
    Marking: the top of the bullet is painted black.
    1. Simargl
      Simargl 15 January 2019 19: 52
      0
      In any case, I'm for 7,62x25 bully
      1. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul 15 January 2019 20: 31
        0
        Judging by the distribution of this popular cartridge in the past in the police and the armed forces of countries in the world, you are very alone in your choice.

        hi

        The cartridge has disadvantages that cannot be eliminated in its form factor. It’s easier to make a new cartridge, just for new needs.

        The western ones tried to make 5.7x28 and 4.6x30, but they never replaced 9x19, which is the golden mean. Not without reason is the most common pistol cartridge in the world.
  • cat Rusich
    cat Rusich 15 January 2019 19: 40
    +4
    Miser pays twice. In 1951 they saved money - they adopted the 9X18 cartridge and went off. Today we decide again what to choose. Does anyone think where to put the old pistols? It was necessary even then to retire Nagany and TT sold to the public. Consider weapons unsuitable for war, obsolete - sell to the people. Do not sell - they are afraid! Now the new gun is needed only by special forces. You want to replace Makarov everywhere - where will they be later? You can’t sell abroad - you don’t need it there. To sell to the population - again to be afraid. Adopt a new gun is possible only with the adoption of the PP in service with the same cartridge, do we have it?
    1. Simargl
      Simargl 15 January 2019 20: 22
      +3
      Quote: cat Rusich
      Do not sell - they are afraid!
      Actively sawing in MMG and injuries.
      Quote: cat Rusich
      You can’t sell abroad - you don’t need it there.
      He is not needed even as a humanitarian aid.
      Quote: cat Rusich
      Adopt a new gun is possible only with the adoption of the PP in service with the same cartridge, do we have it?
      So without a cartridge and will not be.
      I said above that the AKS-74U is a technopunk due to the lack of a normal pistol cartridge. Why get rid of 7,62x25? Little stopping power? It was enough to make a funnel and there would be a lot.
      1. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul 15 January 2019 20: 51
        +1
        Actively sawing in MMG and injuries.


        In the 90s ... now, according to Russian law, the manufacture of injuries from military models smoking.

        MMG now mercilessly and brutally sawed, so as not to restore 100%.
      2. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul 15 January 2019 20: 57
        +2
        He is not needed even as a humanitarian aid.


        If it is the USA abroad, then from the 90s so many Makarovs, SCS and Mosinok from the then USSR and Russia, the German Democratic Republic and Bulgaria were imported there that they were lying in any shop for $ 150. Now it’s more expensive.

        Americans love to collect weapons artifacts from the USSR.
        1. VictorZhivilov
          VictorZhivilov 15 January 2019 22: 36
          +1
          Americans love to collect weapons artifacts from the USSR.

          I understand them very well. I would have legal grounds for acquiring weapons ... I would definitely have acquired this ...
          1. Horse, people and soul
            Horse, people and soul 15 January 2019 23: 14
            0
            It seems that in the GDR there was also a rifle of its own design under 5.45 to remove defectors from the Berlin wall to West Berlin ...
            1. frog
              frog 16 January 2019 08: 47
              0
              Are you talking about SSG-82 ??
              Caliber, mm - 5.45x39;
              Length, mm - 1110;
              Barrel length, mm -595;
              Weight, kg - 4.20;
              Store capacity, count. rounds - 5.
              The accuracy of rifle shooting even with the best ammunition produced by the German Democratic Republic was about 40 mm per 100 meters, with standard army cartridges it worsened to 80 mm per 100 meters.

              The SSG-82 sniper rifle was produced in small quantities in the 1980s at the Ernst Thalmann, Suhl People's Enterprise, for arming the police and security services at airports in the GDR (German Democratic Republic).

              The total number of issued SSG-82 rifles was about 2000 units.
      3. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul 15 January 2019 21: 00
        +2
        It was enough to make a funnel and there would be a lot.


        It is impossible. The Hague, you see, the Convention on Civilized Methods of Warfare. Tsarist Russia signed, the USSR confirmed, the RF successor of both.

        Niiizyayaya !!!
        1. Simargl
          Simargl 15 January 2019 22: 31
          +2
          Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
          Niiizyayaya !!!

          Can! An expansive bullet is prohibited for the military, but not prohibited by civilians. American police are using their expansion to the full.
          But the police and the military have different tasks.
          Because the police use expansion, and the military - armor-piercing.
          And so, food for the mind: a 5,56x45 bullet breaks in half ...
          and the PM bullet, nevertheless, is flattening ...
          and 12,7, although it does not flatten, tears off pieces of the body ...
          ... that’s the whole convention ...

          Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
          MMG now mercilessly and brutally sawed, so as not to restore 100%.
          I do not need injury, as well as MMG. If it comes to your head - only air (but I will gnaw my hand so as not to buy).

          Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
          Still, 9x19 is the unconditional king of the mountain
          Of course! Luger is a genius.

          Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
          That's why they try to use calibers 5.7x28 and 4.6x30 for PDW, but not because 9x19 is bad, but because it’s 9x19, which satisfies armor penetration, it’s expensive.
          I beg to differ.
          Impulse!
          I wrote above that momentum acts on a weapon, and energy on a target. Less impulse - easier automation, easier weapons, more wearable ammunition, higher accuracy ...


          Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
          There is nothing to tighten.
          ***
          If you make a new cartridge, then make it ideal right away from scratch, and not try to squander the military budget again, trying to save it.
          That's it!
          But at the moment, the crossroads again: even the US police have not decided on a cartridge.
          But the army didn’t give a damn: there’s a gun like a dagger.
          Of course, I meant to make a new cartridge. A smaller caliber than 9 mm is probably not a bottle sleeve. Energy under 800 J ...
          1. Horse, people and soul
            Horse, people and soul 15 January 2019 22: 43
            +1
            You can!


            It is impossible. USA - overseas. In the countries of Europe - humanismZZZm.
            It is impossible in Europe in the police, security guards and especially self-defense.
            1. Simargl
              Simargl 15 January 2019 22: 55
              0
              Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
              USA - overseas.
              They are participants and signatories.
              5,7x28 and 5,56x45 definitely violate it. The first is Belgium (Europe, oddly enough), the second is NATO (и Europe, oddly enough)
              1. Horse, people and soul
                Horse, people and soul 15 January 2019 23: 05
                +1
                The local weapons laws of Europe will give you more information than the Convention in several parts from the late 19th, early 20th century. The humanistic laws of countries tighten on their territory the use of expansive bullets for individuals, police and security guards. The convention does not limit. Restrict all kinds of local laws of countries.

                It boils down to one word NIIIZYAYAAYA - and all.
          2. Horse, people and soul
            Horse, people and soul 15 January 2019 22: 49
            +1
            and the PM bullet, nevertheless, is flattening ...


            Nichrome bullet PM with a steel core does not flatten. Ricochet - yes. Like all bullets, but because of the round shape of the steel core - this one is especially. The 9x19, .45 ACP power in FMJ equipment is not enough to flatten a bullet in ballistic gelatin. And capacities up to 300 Joules of the PM cartridge - even more so.

            Or are you going to shoot them at the armor?
            1. Simargl
              Simargl 15 January 2019 23: 08
              0
              Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
              Nichrome bullet PM with a steel core does not flatten.
              Well, maybe: I didn’t pick it out of the carcass.
              .45 ACP is not an indicator - only bees are slower.
              Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
              Or are you going to shoot them at the armor?
              Are we talking about a universal cartridge?
              Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
              Only with cheapness there is a chance.
              If the construct allows, but it is not unique (like the same 4,7 × 33), then only the series will reduce the price.
          3. Horse, people and soul
            Horse, people and soul 15 January 2019 22: 51
            +1
            Of course! Luger is a genius.


            Of the many options for cartridges in the early 20th century, someone had to guess.

            hi
          4. Horse, people and soul
            Horse, people and soul 15 January 2019 22: 55
            0
            Impulse!


            And the momentum too. With one blow of several birds with one stone.
            But money for the military budget is above all. They are the basis of such changes as caliber change. Only with cheapness there is a chance.
          5. Horse, people and soul
            Horse, people and soul 15 January 2019 22: 58
            +1
            Of course, I meant to make a new cartridge.


            If it doesn’t burn very much (and, after all, it doesn’t burn!), You can sit and see how the bourgeois turn out. In order not to pile on a d u r ak with your own money.

            Here's how they took 90x9 after 19 years after the whole world already uses it.
            1. Simargl
              Simargl 16 January 2019 00: 14
              0
              Maybe sleeveless?
              Not a gun!
              1. Horse, people and soul
                Horse, people and soul 16 January 2019 00: 25
                +3
                Sleeveless were already in the late 19th century.

                laughing

                The 1858 caliber .44 caliber revolver .XNUMX was just that. The cartridge spun from completely burning paper and was inserted into the drum in front, then the bullet was sent by the press deeper into the drum to ensure the working conditions of black smoke powder. And finally, they were installed on the nipple of the capsule.

                No. Shellless cartridges in their current form are a dead end. An ordinary brass sleeve, in addition to obturation, performs an important function - it removes heat from the chamber. Heat flies away with the sleeve.

                The revolver heats up more than a pistol during long-term shooting. At the pistol, the hot sleeve immediately flies away, and in the revolver the sleeves usually remain in the drum until it is completely shot. This is much, much longer than the hot sleeve is in the chamber of the gun.
                1. Simargl
                  Simargl 16 January 2019 00: 29
                  0
                  Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                  Heat flies away with the sleeve.

                  Quote: Simargl
                  Not a gun!


                  Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                  except for obturation
                  Yeah, especially the revolvers ...
                  Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                  Sleeveless were already in the late 19th century.
                  wassat laughing
                  Is separate charging weak?
                  1. Horse, people and soul
                    Horse, people and soul 16 January 2019 01: 21
                    +1
                    Is separate charging weak?


                    It is like the need for the presence of a third sex for reproduction.

                    - What do you need for reproduction?
                    - Female, male and ...
                    - What "and" ???
                    - A certain inanimate object ...
                    - ?????
                    - ... money.
                  2. Horse, people and soul
                    Horse, people and soul 16 January 2019 01: 30
                    +1
                    Yeah, especially the revolvers ...


                    Yes, with revolvers, as a result of which the gases from the barrel of the cartridge case do not break back through the drum chamber (the drum is a rotating cartridge chamber) back arrow in the face.

                    As you have already noticed, in a revolver that uses metal cartridges, there are pass-through chambers in the drum and only the sleeve creates a certain obturation.

                    True, there was already a completely exotic Dardic revolver pistol (???) with an open chamber.
              2. Horse, people and soul
                Horse, people and soul 16 January 2019 18: 57
                0
                40-60 rounds in 30-40 seconds with running between targets in a long IPSC exercise is common. The gun is red, of course, but hot. But the revolver drum is hotter.
                1. Simargl
                  Simargl 16 January 2019 20: 17
                  0
                  Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                  The gun is red, of course, but hot.
                  The main thing is the chamber.
                  The Germans in the G-11 will have a faster rate of fire.
                  And if you shoot with the open shutter .... wassat
                  1. Horse, people and soul
                    Horse, people and soul 16 January 2019 21: 37
                    +1
                    G-11 is a stillborn corpse. Like a revolver-pistol of the Dardik with its "thrands", which was still on sale.

                    It seems that they drove on the G-11 the darkness of money and no exhaust.

                    There are many examples when weapons were not taken into service, but went into civilian traffic or for export. But the G-11 was just buried. So is this project worth it?

                    hi
                    1. Simargl
                      Simargl 16 January 2019 23: 27
                      0
                      Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                      So is this project worth it?
                      With regard to the COP - no.
                      Americans, it seems, bought the project?
                      I believe they will be sawing a machine gun and a rifle to replace .50
                      The rifle does not heat the chamber very much, and the machine gun will shoot from the open shutter ...
                      1. Horse, people and soul
                        Horse, people and soul 17 January 2019 18: 32
                        0
                        Americans will cut the budget. To cut the budget - perfect.

                        F-35 by weight is already worth more than the same weight of gold.
                      2. Simargl
                        Simargl 17 January 2019 20: 56
                        +1
                        Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                        Americans will cut the budget.
                        They will not drive the M-60 another 100 years ...
                      3. Horse, people and soul
                        Horse, people and soul 17 January 2019 22: 00
                        +1
                        Ukrainians pulled Maxim to the Donbass.

                        crying
                      4. Simargl
                        Simargl 18 January 2019 09: 27
                        +1
                        Oh well! They removed Maxims from storage, and the M-60, as far as I know, is still in production. There is a difference.
                      5. Horse, people and soul
                        Horse, people and soul 18 January 2019 19: 47
                        0
                        The Italians in Pietta, Uberti and Petersoli produce Army capsule Colts, New Army Remingtones, single-shot pistols, muskets and rifles from the American Revolutionary War.

                        Full of people who love to dress up and shoot smoke powder.
                      6. Simargl
                        Simargl 18 January 2019 20: 05
                        -1
                        Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                        Full of people who love to dress up and shoot smoke powder.
                        We too. You can even buy without a license for a weapon, sort of.
                        Just shoot - a license is needed.
                      7. Horse, people and soul
                        Horse, people and soul 19 January 2019 00: 15
                        0
                        Yes, on sale after 18 years.

                        To buy gunpowder and a capsule you need permission for any other weapon.

                        The nipples can be turned out and in their place screwed adapters under .22 Flaubert. There are polymer bullets in the drum and you can shoot them repeatedly even in your own yard.

  • Avior
    Avior 16 January 2019 01: 54
    0
    With tsarist Russia, you got a little excited, not the assignee.
    But the Hague Convention does not need to be signed - the Nuremberg Tribunal has decided that it, like Geneva, is binding on everyone, regardless of whether or not they signed it. hi
    1. Simargl
      Simargl 18 January 2019 11: 53
      0
      Quote: Avior
      Geneva, obligatory for everyone
      The United States, it seems, signed. No?
  • Horse, people and soul
    Horse, people and soul 15 January 2019 20: 32
    +1
    The famous saying goes like this:

    Avaricious pays twice, durachok pays three times, and idiot pays his whole life.


    In general, yes. Outdated weapons are usually allowed into the civilian market. So the heads of the generals are freed from the bad idea of ​​using echelons of cartridges and pistols at least somehow, though against common sense.
  • akm8226
    akm8226 15 January 2019 20: 12
    +4
    Lord authors! Before writing about "adoption" it would be useful to inform the public about the tests carried out - what, where, when, how and how much. Then we will be able to compare this or that sample, and even then - until you hold in your hands and shoot a minimum of a couple of hundred rounds, nothing definite can be said. In addition, it is necessary in the article to give the principle of operation of the automation of both barrels ... and that's not all - as an engineer I know that sometimes an idea that looked very beautiful on paper, when embodied in metal, turns out to be wild. I hope this is not the case, but it was possible to give at least approximate drawings - this is not a military secret.
    Total -.
    1. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 15 January 2019 20: 54
      +4
      The journalists just blew up a bubble.
      1. VictorZhivilov
        VictorZhivilov 15 January 2019 22: 39
        +1
        The journalists just blew up a bubble.

        Their job is Public Relations. smile
  • Ravil_Asnafovich
    Ravil_Asnafovich 15 January 2019 22: 15
    0
    More action, less words!
  • Wildcat
    Wildcat 16 January 2019 00: 50
    0
    Hooray! In the last article about the Boa, there was a sample created by "designers" in which the magazine reset button replaced the clip around the trigger am
    Now the designers are lost, I hope!
    laughing
  • Talgarets
    Talgarets 16 January 2019 04: 39
    +2
    How many I live so much and I hear that PMs are changing ... Already 25 years have not changed ...
  • rew1969
    rew1969 16 January 2019 21: 28
    +1
    When fired from a PM, a bullet hit the door of the nightstand, the door was not pierced by a bullet (I shot). Make a conclusion yourself.
    1. akims
      akims 16 January 2019 22: 27
      +2
      Nice nightstand wink
      1. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul 17 January 2019 21: 56
        +1
        You can hide from raiders in it.

        wassat
    2. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 17 January 2019 21: 55
      +1
      There is such a catalog of ELFA radio components with a thickness of centimeters, commercials, six, or even all seven. Previously, they were handed out for free and they were in vacuum packaging.

      So, they did not break it:

      - 9x19 from Glock 17
      - .38 Special of Ruger SP101
      - .45 ACP of Glock 36

      And only .357 Magnum struck, and with a short barrel 2-1 / 4 inches Ruger SP101.
  • Victor Wolz
    Victor Wolz 16 January 2019 22: 28
    0
    How the tests will be held, including Syria, it will be clear whether a pistol is needed in caliber 9x21 or not.
  • Astra wild
    Astra wild 17 January 2019 20: 26
    +2
    If by design, then I like the submarine. And for personal use, I would choose PSM (I shot from it) or Walter PPK in an exclusive design
    1. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 17 January 2019 21: 44
      +1
      PSM - 2 euros per cartridge. The same size Glock 43 - honest 9x19 at 20 euro cents per cartridge.

      wassat

      https://www.jahipaun.ee/netipood/toode/laskemoon/kasitulirelvale/padrun-545x18-psm-6878/
      1. Astra wild
        Astra wild 17 January 2019 21: 49
        +1
        So I said: "or Walter PPK", and there are a lot of cartridges for him and at different prices
        1. Horse, people and soul
          Horse, people and soul 17 January 2019 22: 13
          +1
          A for the native Walter cartridge 7.65x17 the price is 32 euro cents. As a self-defense prodigy, it cannot be compared in its "useful effect" with 9x19. Money down the drain. A motivated and armed "boar" will not stop using substances. Keep-collecting in the safe?

          We had a couple of years ago in .22LR caliber.
          1. Astra wild
            Astra wild 18 January 2019 18: 29
            +1
            I was told that at a distance of 15-20 m. From the PSM, you can easily lay any ambal.
            There were 7,62mm revolvers "Nagant" and they were actively used in the revolution, they are often shown in films and they were presented as a reward, they were widely used in the Second World War, but the person did not become stronger. Father-in-law says people are less hardy than 40 years ago
            1. Horse, people and soul
              Horse, people and soul 18 January 2019 19: 10
              +1
              I was told that at a distance of 15-20 m. From the PSM, you can easily lay any ambal.


              They lie. To fall does not mean to immediately lay down. And you need it right away, because the ambal in his hands is not a cake, but a weapon.

              There were 7,62mm revolvers "Nagant" and they were actively used in the revolution, they are often shown in films and they were presented as a reward, they were widely used in WWII, but the person did not become stronger.


              Used. Because there was simply nothing other than TT. Korovin - does not count.

              The same Makarov was made by a dystrophic post-war generation of men without a gram of excess fat, with a height of 160-170 cm and a weight of 60-70 kg, and today's 180-190 cm and a hundred kilos in weight. These are two big differences.

              Father-in-law says that people have become hardier than 40 years ago


              Didn’t you tell the father-in-law about Islamist terrorists on substances or just about drug addicts seeking money for a dose?
              1. Astra wild
                Astra wild 18 January 2019 19: 14
                0
                In this case, 9x19 does not guarantee salvation
                1. Horse, people and soul
                  Horse, people and soul 18 January 2019 19: 52
                  +1
                  Everything is calculated and verified in practice. Shoot in place twice.

                  The 15 charging store Glock 19 is 7 double shots, and the 8 charging store PM is 4 double shots, while 9x19, consider it twice as powerful as 9x18 - 600 Joules against 300 Joules.

                  Glock 43 is 6 rounds 9x19 in the PSM form factor.
                  Having set the other heel we get +1, +2 or +3 rounds depending on the palm or the need to better dive. Lightweight, but very angry and as reliable as all Glocks.
                  1. Astra wild
                    Astra wild 18 January 2019 20: 10
                    0
                    Glock saw in the picture, but not enough
                    1. Horse, people and soul
                      Horse, people and soul 18 January 2019 20: 33
                      0
                      Glock 43 is my "summer" option for dress code number zero: underpants-T-shirt-pistol.

                      Flat, thinner than the PM, slightly thicker than the PSM, but it is normal in the hand. Easy. Does not rust. The luminous tritium sight, although there it is not needed.

            2. frog
              frog 18 January 2019 21: 54
              0
              Let me join the venerable member)))
              And from PSM and from "Nagan" really, you can easily put anyone. Moreover, from both you can quite accurately get where you want. And also "Drill" was, and it was also used well. But it was done by people who were well trained and, mainly, in the presence of more lethal machines, with the aim of "privatizing" the carcass. That is, it was necessary to take it alive, damaging the part of the carcass that was not very necessary for further.
              For self-defense, these units are not categorically suitable, in which I absolutely agree with what has already been expressed. Here you need a machine with a good stopping effect, but not yet a howitzer. And it is necessary to work with flash exactly .....
              1. Horse, people and soul
                Horse, people and soul 19 January 2019 00: 38
                0
                To be fair, Nagan's "combat" cartridges in "that period" were fully charged so that there were about 300 Joules against modern Fiocci and Partizan with their anemic 160 Joules, so that the veteran would not fall apart. Old steel is old steel.

                The same story is with the .38 Special, with which American pilots flew into World War II. They were fully charged up to 450-470 Joules. Then it was a combat weapon with a 4-inch barrel.

                And today, for light titanium-scandium-plastic "pocket" revolvers, such cartridges are uncomfortable. So they charge the .38 Special to 330-350 Joules. And the sports wadcutter and even less, less than 200 Joules.

                The devil is in the details ...

                hi
                1. Astra wild
                  Astra wild 19 January 2019 11: 37
                  0
                  Dear colleague, you are good at owning the topic and captivating.
                  With your permission, I have questions: 9x18 ultra, what is it? Muzhev's friend said: 7,62 civilian caliber, 9x17 policeman, and 9x19 army caliber. In this case, how to evaluate 9x18 "ultra"
                  1. Horse, people and soul
                    Horse, people and soul 19 January 2019 14: 43
                    0
                    Yes, there is no separate "civilian", "police" and "military" caliber.

                    My Glock 17 can be civilian, sports, police, or military, depending on the bullets with which bullets to load there. The military uses armor-piercing bullets, the police use expansive bullets (where it is not prohibited by law), and athletes use heavy ones with a minimum power factor to reduce recoil and facilitate high-speed shooting. For firing with a silencer, heavy bullets weighing 158 grains (10 with a small gram) are used.

                    And all this is 9x19.

                    9x18 Ultra is today an exotic caliber, since ammunition is practically not produced and weapons for it have long been museum exhibits.

                    In some countries, EMNIP, Italy, Spain and elsewhere, the law forbids civilians to use the same caliber as the military. Therefore, it uses 9x21 IMI, which is essentially a copy of parabellum, but without any + P and + P +. This is not Russian 9x21.
                    1. Astra wild
                      Astra wild 19 January 2019 20: 39
                      0
                      I read somewhere: + P, but I don’t know what it is. She asked her husband, and he says: an increased charge of gunpowder, such as magnum.
                      1. Horse, people and soul
                        Horse, people and soul 19 January 2019 22: 23
                        0
                        That's right - + P is a mediocreated cartridge, and + P + is an even more mediated cartridge. But here it is important that not just more gunpowder was added, but that the cartridge complies with the SAAMI and CIP standards for the maximum permissible pressure in the barrel.

                        That is, you can stick it only in weapons certified according to SAAMI and CIP standards for this maximum pressure in the barrel.
                  2. frog
                    frog 19 January 2019 15: 04
                    0
                    Sorry, let me intervene a little ...
                    EMNIP, 9x18 ultra - ammunition, almost 1936 "bottling". It was created as an intermediate between the curt (9x17k) and 9x19, which par. The firm, EMNIP, is "Geco". But it did not spread especially. From the 70s, the Germans began to produce the same as the 9x18 police. Due to the possibility of using it without any problems in systems with a free shutter and their low cost, in particular, Walther PP Super.
                    "The 9x18 Police bullet weighs 6,5 g, has a bullet energy of 339-363 J and an muzzle velocity of 323-345 m / s." However, without "crazy little hands" it is impossible to use in PM, as well as vice versa ....
                    1. Horse, people and soul
                      Horse, people and soul 19 January 2019 15: 48
                      0
                      Experience is the son of difficult mistakes. No one 9x18 Ultra and the Policy was not needed. The concept was initially erroneous.

                      The lighter Glock 43 with the Browning (modified) locking of the barrel in 9x19 recoil is felt more easily than without locking on a heavier PM and with a less powerful 9x18PM.
                      1. frog
                        frog 19 January 2019 16: 48
                        0
                        Here, not only to argue, there’s nothing to add)))) This ammunition (9x18) already caused a lot of questions, but now ....
                      2. Horse, people and soul
                        Horse, people and soul 19 January 2019 22: 37
                        0
                        On the IGB Austria, they make trunks to Glock 17 with the Makarovsky chamber 9x18.

                        As they say, any whim for your money.
              2. frog
                frog 19 January 2019 14: 52
                0
                Well, it's hard to argue about the fact that the "source of sulfur" lies in the little things, and there is no need)).
                As for the power of Nagan's cartridges, one can say that with a reduced weight of ammunition they began to produce, at least in the USSR, back in the 70s. And precisely because of the "old steel", since a considerable number of old tapestries were used by VOKHR and other specific organizations. Not to mention the sporting weapon ammunition. But I assumed that we are talking about, if I may say so, "classics" ...
                Simply, if we talk about self-defense (sho in the conditions of the Russian Federation causes ......, in general, causes and delivers))), then the use of a short-barreled barrel does not cause ...... from law enforcement agencies. And if we talk at all, then, unequivocally, the power of all the above machines, incl. and "Pal Makarycha" is rather weak. Although, from the point of view of shooting as such, the slightly worn "Nagan" evokes a lot of positive emotions. And if you got another "tsarist times" officer ..... Dream. IMHO.
                1. Horse, people and soul
                  Horse, people and soul 19 January 2019 15: 43
                  0
                  Dream. IMHO.


                  This dream I personally broke without any pity after the first time shooting from Smith after Nagan. No matter how well-deserved this veteran was, but in comparison with the modern Smiths and Rugers (Colt Python could not get to know because of the shortage and sky-high price). Smith and Ruger have a descent even a self-winding fairy tale, and the weight of a revolver with a 4-inch barrel makes it easy to shoot full-weight .38 Special.
                  1. frog
                    frog 19 January 2019 16: 51
                    0
                    This dream was then ..... For a long time .... As if in "totalitarian times")) I could get acquainted in detail with these units ?? Again, no one is trying to present this old man as a tapestry of all times and peoples. But for its time, quite a decent pistol. Well, and then .... Then came the peculiarities of the imperishable gains of socialism in industry and economy.
                    1. Horse, people and soul
                      Horse, people and soul 19 January 2019 22: 13
                      +1
                      I suspect that the Nagans were accepted only thanks to the kickbacks of the royal generals. Borrowing, etit. Well, the very conditions of the competition are pure sabotage, if not called stupidity and amateurism.

                      Russia changed rifles several times from one model to another often, expensively and inefficiently, until they got to the competition for a three-line rifle and revolver. And then it seemed that everyone had been outwitted and saved the treasury.

                      But time put everything in its place. It turned out that shotguns and revolvers in particular should be 9mm and higher, and no one needs to fight gas breakthroughs with a powerful cartridge. Well, here, Bramit was screwed to Nagan unless ...
                    2. Horse, people and soul
                      Horse, people and soul 19 January 2019 22: 30
                      +1
                      Nagant’s contemporaneous 1892 Colt Navi with the drum leaning to the left was a much better weapon in terms of construction and .38 caliber, but ... soon the Philippine war against drug addicts Moreau showed that this weak .38 caliber cartridge could not stop the motivated savage on substances , and Naganovsky 7.62 (.32 caliber) can suddenly stop a (sober) horse?

                      Explicit bribery during the trials of Nagan!

                    3. Horse, people and soul
                      Horse, people and soul 19 January 2019 23: 03
                      0
                      Americans in the 19th century revolvers were divided into army .44 capsule caliber and naval .36 capsule.

                      After the appearance of metal cartridges, such a division remained for some time, only army steel .45 Colt, and naval steel .38

                      And only the Philippine War put everything on the shelves. For many years he won 1911 and .45 ACP.
                  2. frog
                    frog 19 January 2019 23: 18
                    0
                    Well, with bribery and other jigsaws, and now everything is not bad, and even then ...
                    As for the caliber - again I can’t argue, there’s nothing on it))) For a long time there was a cartoon about some savings due to the unity of calibers and possible savings when using defective rifle barrels in production. A little engineer, and therefore the nonsense of this venture is obvious. However, the bathhouse is a pretext, not a pronoun at all)))
                    A gas breakthrough is a thing ..... such. It’s not good at night; it’s bad at night, and so it’s bad, even without gas. Really, be that Bramit. Although, I heard about some of the firing chips from the gun .... On the other hand, they use what they have, individual decadents and PM work well. It is clear that Shaw is not the best pistol, but there is no choice in the service.
                  3. Horse, people and soul
                    Horse, people and soul 19 January 2019 23: 25
                    0
                    Although, I heard about some of the firing chips from the gun ....


                    Out of pocket, or what?

                    Duc from modern pocket (in size) revolvers can also be fired from a pocket, Ruger LCR. Only the pocket should be in a coat or ... overcoat. winked
                    A breakthrough of gases from .357 Magnum personally chopped a sausage to demonstrate the correct grip of the revolver with two hands.
                  4. frog
                    frog 19 January 2019 23: 33
                    0
                    Well, why immediately out of pocket?)))
                    Demonstrated the fate of the fingers of the decadent ??
                    And about the chips, so it's like someone. By squeezing the entire brush when shooting, well, not that it would not be aiming, but ... Poor-minded and tongue-tied, guilty .... Again, as we said, "in gypsy" from him is more convenient. But this is getting closer to historical excursions than to practice ...
                  5. Horse, people and soul
                    Horse, people and soul 20 January 2019 00: 03
                    0
                    I really love my Ruger SP101, although I have not worn it for a long time. I love it because the fetish is made of stainless steel and no matter how I poked it on any item - it always has an even fly with its automatic machine.

                    And I don’t wear because there are Glocks.
                  6. frog
                    frog 20 January 2019 00: 06
                    0
                    I can envy tokmo, in white)))
            3. 4thParasinok
              4thParasinok 15 February 2019 19: 36
              0
              Quote: frog
              For a long time there was a cartoon about some kind of economy due to the unity of calibers and possible savings when using defective rifle trunks in production. A little engineer, and therefore the nonsense of this venture is obvious.

              to see the diploma student has been bought ... although one day I ran into an engineer who demanded to cut the thread with a die on the "handle" of the "dumbbell".
              Duck here, as though undereducated, the technologist claims that this is not a bike but the truth.
          2. Mordvin 3
            Mordvin 3 20 January 2019 01: 58
            -1
            Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
            I suspect that Nagan was accepted only thanks to the kickbacks of the royal generals

            They wrote a good bike about this.
            - Af ... Uh ... Of ... Gentlemen ... - Piper hoarses. “I ran like that ... I was so afraid of being late ... I heard that you are having a contest here, and brought my new revolver ... Here ...

            On the table lay a revolver.



            “You were mistaken, my dear,” the official grumbles through the lip with obvious hostility. - We have no competition here. So far, we have simply drawn up the technical requirements. And at the same time they just looked at Mr. Nagan's revolver.

            - Af ... Uh ... Then mine just look. - Piper is hard to stand, he is leaning on the table.

            “What a tactless person ...” the official is annoyed.

            “What about your revolver?” - Apologists enter the battle. - Here at Nagan - the same revolver! He has an ultramodern system eliminating the breakthrough of powder gases! What about you? What do you have?

            - Af ... I also have such a system! - Piper has caught his breath and is ready to give a fight. “I invented it.” And also with Monsieur Nagant, the revolver is reloaded with one cartridge, and I have a folding drum, and all the cartridges are thrown out at the same time. Look, this is much more convenient.

            - BUT! Here you go! - Apologists are sharpening. - Do you have a folding drum? And we just don’t need a folding drum!

            http://alternathistory.com/lev-sokolov-oruzhejnye-bajki-nagan/
  • 4thParasinok
    4thParasinok 15 February 2019 19: 18
    0
    Quote: Astra wild
    I was told that at a distance of 15-20 m. From the PSM, you can easily lay any ambal.

    if you get into the head, this does not mean that then the lawyers will deny you even if self-defense is proved, because you can’t shoot in the head.
  • Clone
    Clone 25 February 2019 18: 30
    0
    Ndaaaa ... another contender for the title of army pistol. Which one already counts? lol And the old PM as served conscientiously in the army, and serves ...