Military Review

Pistol Lebedev PL-15 on the verge of mass production

156
The Kalashnikov Concern, which is part of the Rostec State Concern, in 2019 will launch the Lebedev pistol (PL-15) into serial production. On this earlier, 14 September, the official website of "Kalashnikov Media" reported with reference to the managing director of the Izhevsk mechanical plant (part of the concern) Alexander Gvozdika.


“Serial production (PL-15 pistol) will be in 2019, that's for sure. All equipment is on the way, ”Alexander Gvozdik told reporters, noting that the pistol would be made in Izhevsk using new technologies. "The product will respond to consumer properties of the main customer as on the subject of combat rifle weaponsand in the direction of civilian small arms ”, - stressed the managing director of IMZ. No other details about the start of serial production of the Lebedev pistol have yet been disclosed.

For the first time, the prototype Lebedev pistol was presented to the general public in the framework of the Army-2015 military-technical forum. A modified and improved version of this gun for the popular worldwide 9x19 mm Parabellum cartridge was presented a year later at the Army-2016 forum. And in 2017, at the Army-2017 forum, the public was presented with a pistol PL-15K, which is, in the shortest possible time, a developed compact version of the standard PL-15. The pistol is equipped with a Picatinny-type rail for mounting additional tactical devices, the PL-15 magazine is designed for 14 cartridges. According to the statements of the Kalashnikov concern, the novelty has a number of advantages, which include accuracy and accuracy of shooting, a small thickness of the pistol and ergonomics of the handle.


The development of the Lebedev pistol began in 2010-ies, the designer and sports shooter Dmitry Lebedev was responsible for its creation. When creating a new gun, the focus was on issues of ergonomics and product balancing. All this should help an experienced shooter to significantly improve the accuracy of firing a pistol without thinking. The gun was created in the interests of the Russian special services and the armed forces. The weapons are planned to be delivered to the army and police. The compact version of the pistol - PL-15K, presented at the “Army-2017” forum, is considered as a possible replacement for the legendary PM (Makarov pistol).

The pistol PL-15 was developed for the use of cartridges caliber 9x19 mm Parabellum. The length of the weapon is 220 mm (barrel length - 127 mm), width - 28 mm, height - 136 mm. The basic version of the gun is equipped with a box magazine, designed for 14 cartridges. Small thickness is one of the distinguishing features of Izhevsk news. In front of the gun, the thickness of the gun is 21 mm, in the area of ​​the handle - 28 mm. These values ​​provide the gun with the best performance in terms of compactness in its class. Also earlier it was said that they tried to make the pistol as comfortable as possible in terms of recoil, reducing the throw up after the shot and ensuring the rapid return of the pistol to the aiming line.

PL-15 is a truly compact model of firearms, equipped with modern ergonomic handle. The manufacturer claims that interchangeable plates for adjusting the handle will be available with the gun. This will allow shooters with different palm sizes to make the weapon more convenient and comfortable just for themselves. The distance between the butt plate of the handle and the central axis of the barrel of the gun is made small - the barrel is just above the top point of the palm-grip that grips the handle. This solution allowed the designers to provide better control of the recoil of the pistol and increases the speed and accuracy of shooting, reducing the time for re-aiming after the shot.

Like most modern models of small arms, the PL-15 pistol boasts two-way controls. The magazine latch button and the switch of the safety switch and the bolt stop delay are two-way. This is done for ease of use of weapons both right-handed and left-handed.


Automatic pistol PL-15 works on the principle of short recoil of the barrel, locking is done by bias the barrel. The pistol trigger mechanism, according to the assurances of the manufacturer, is available in two versions: impactor-type trigger and double-action trigger (self-cocking). Shock trigger mechanism of double-action hammer type with a hidden location and inertial drummer has its own features and distinctive features. With the safety catch on, the trigger and the trigger of the gun are disconnected. In general, the self-cocking trigger is designed so that the pistol could not make a spontaneous shot even when dropped from a height (falling from a human height onto a hard surface), which increases the safety of handling weapons.

In the PL-15, the trigger pull force is 4 kg. The trigger stroke length is 7 mm. Lebedev's pistol is equipped with a tactile indicator of the presence of a cartridge in the barrel bore — when there is a cartridge in the back of the bolt, a special pin protrudes slightly, which allows the shooter to determine whether the weapon is currently loaded or not. This solution also increases the safety of the shooter and others when handling weapons.

The gun is powered by cartridges from detachable two-row stores with the output of cartridges in one row. The capacity of the standard magazine is 14 cartridges. Sights PL-15 open, unregulated, installed in the grooves of the type "dovetail." On the frame under the barrel there is a Picatinny-type guide bar, which allows you to install an additional tactical kit: tactical flashlight, laser pointer, etc. Also, the gun can be equipped with an elongated barrel with a thread for installing a quick-release muffler, such versions of the Izhevsk pistol were also demonstrated at exhibitions earlier.

Pistols PL-15K and PL-15 together

The compact version of the pistol, which received the designation PL-15K and made on the basis of a full-size model, was introduced last year and is also a classic self-loading pistol. For reloading the weapon, the stroke of the moving barrel is used, which, under the effect of recoil, moves back along with the bolt. The barrel stroke of the PL-15K when fired is short, that is, less than the stroke of the bolt. This scheme of automation, selected by the designers, allowed them to create a gun that has the minimum size. The design of the pistol PL-15K allows you to install on it a longer barrel, as well as various options for front and rear sight. In this case, the trigger stroke was deliberately made great, and the force when pressed is 4 kg - this is more than that of analogs. Spontaneous shot is almost impossible.

The version of the PL-15K turned out to be even smaller, while retaining the caliber 9x19 mm and the magazine on 14 cartridges. The length of this version of the gun is only 180 mm, height - 130 mm. The mass of the unloaded pistol PL-15K is 720 grams. That compactness is called one of the main competitive advantages of the model. If the full-size PL-15, which is also difficult to call a giant, still has some pretty serious competitors in its segment, the niche for which the PL-15K version claims is almost free from competitors. With the most successful development of circumstances, a compact pistol of Izhevsk gunsmiths will finally be able to press down practically the eternal pistol of Makarov, who enjoys indisputable authority among domestic gunsmiths and industry, being in service with 1951 of the year.

Compared with its trouble-free, although already very elderly competitor, the PL-15K has a number of advantages, which include better ergonomics, accuracy, accuracy and speed of fire, small thickness and the absence of levers strongly protruding beyond the side edges of the weapon. In addition, the model can be equipped with self-cocking trigger, which allows you to safely carry a pistol with a cartridge in the chamber without the need to use a safety lever. An important fact is the use of more powerful cartridges 9x19 mm Parabellum, including the possibility of using armor-piercing ammunition. It is also important to increase the capacity of the store: the standard box store PL-15 and PL-15K is designed for 14 cartridges, whereas in the PM only 8 cartridges, the difference is almost doubled.

Information sources:
https://kalashnikov.media/article/weapons/kalashnikov-nachnet-seriynoe-proizvodstvo-pistoleta-lebedeva-v-2019-godu
https://nplus1.ru/news/2018/09/15/pistol
https://www.armoury-online.ru/articles/pistols/russia/pl-14
Open source materials
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156 comments
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  1. Kot_Kuzya
    Kot_Kuzya 19 September 2018 05: 06
    0
    It seems that the army and the Ministry of Internal Affairs never complained about the PM. I’m afraid that they would not start supplying them with pistols, which, after not passing the full cycle of tests, will wedge and fail, or even be completely torn in their hands. In modern realities, this may well be. Now it’s not the USSR, where all weapons accepted for armament were tested under the most severe conditions, and only then they were accepted for service. There has recently been a scandal with the Superjets due to their insecurity:
    Yakutia Airlines does not exclude the possibility of stopping the use of Sukhoi Superjet 100 (SSJ 100) aircraft. The director of the fleet of "Yakutia" Ivan Vinokurov told the publication "Air Transport Review".

    Vinokurov explained that with a number of advantages, the SSJ 100 has problems that prevent it from operating aircraft effectively. According to him, despite the measures taken by the company, at the moment two out of five planes are not used due to defects in SaM146 engines. However, replacement engines are not available on the market.

    “I think we will keep the option of shutting down as an emergency button.” The critical mass has accumulated, ”said Vinokurov. According to him, due to the low serviceability of SSJ, the company "actually failed the summer." He added that from time to time only two out of four aircraft declared in the summer schedule were operational with the carrier. “We may have no choice but to stop the operation,” concluded Vinokurov.

    Read more at RBC:
    https://www.rbc.ru/rbcfreenews/5b83e6fd9a794767f597b0d0
    1. Andrey Yuryevich
      Andrey Yuryevich 19 September 2018 06: 23
      -8
      Quote: Kot_Kuzya
      It seems that the army and the Ministry of Internal Affairs never complained about PM

      yah! "Makar" is a so-so pistol, reliable of course, but no more. Getting out of it is not easy. further 25m - in general, fantastic, the deceased dad (police major) took me to the shooting range, I personally could not just hit the target, well, yes, 16 years old, the hand is "not trained", there is no experience, but I saw how others smeared ...
      1. Izotovp
        Izotovp 19 September 2018 07: 39
        +12
        And at 25 meters PM quite an accurate gun. And the PMM already has improved ergonomics and a 12-round magazine. And shoot in life at 25 meters? The gun is not for such distances. So ... But if you compare it with the real leaders in its class? Yes, the store for an army pistol for this caliber is already small.
        1. DimerVladimer
          DimerVladimer 19 September 2018 14: 57
          -21
          Quote: Izotovp
          +6
          And at 25 meters PM quite an accurate gun. And the PMM already has improved ergonomics and a 12-round magazine. And shoot in life at 25 meters? The gun is not for such distances. So ... But if you compare it with the real leaders in its class? Yes, the store for an army pistol for this caliber is already small.


          In general, the pistol should be accurate both at 100 and 200 meters - like the Beretta 92FS, which the PM "butt" is not suitable for.
          1. gross kaput
            gross kaput 19 September 2018 20: 00
            +17
            Quote: DimerVladimer
            at 100 and at 200 m be precise - like the Beretta 92FS

            Proofs of shooting from the 92nd to 200 meters will be? Or do you use your tongue?
          2. aws4
            aws4 19 September 2018 23: 52
            +5
            both at 300 and at 400 m you’re modestly straightforward .. and by the way, at AK, the sight is at 1000 m and it shoots even further at 3 km and punches the rail .. I make a proposal to throw out all the SVD, PC, RPG and all AK to give out in it will be cool. .
          3. SASHA OLD
            SASHA OLD 22 September 2018 22: 07
            +3
            Quote: DimerVladimer
            Quote: Izotovp
            +6
            And at 25 meters PM quite an accurate gun. And the PMM already has improved ergonomics and a 12-round magazine. And shoot in life at 25 meters? The gun is not for such distances. So ... But if you compare it with the real leaders in its class? Yes, the store for an army pistol for this caliber is already small.


            In general, the pistol should be accurate both at 100 and 200 meters - like the Beretta 92FS, which the PM "butt" is not suitable for.

            so what is there "for 100-200 meters" - for 500-600 immediately come on!
          4. serg123
            serg123 23 September 2018 18: 04
            +2
            The gun is designed for close combat. His main goal is to prevent the enemy from coming close. As for the accuracy of 100 and 200 meters, then there are machine guns and rifles.
            1. passerby5
              passerby5 28 September 2018 20: 07
              -1
              right. for close combat. but the cartridge is weak. and literally ricochets from the "buttons". and a really bad gun. Once they took the huntsman for the shooting. so he did not even get into milk from 25 m from the PM into the growth one. although from the machine gun fired normally. and also shot from the PSM norms. you need to get used to it
        2. John22
          John22 19 September 2018 21: 10
          +11
          A pistol is a melee weapon, and you must be able to get out of it up to 50 m. Situations in a battle can be different. And if you want to survive, get at the maximum distance. And from the PL-15 you need to shoot first, and then draw conclusions. And then for a couple of photos and an illiterate article, we break spears.
        3. SERGUS
          SERGUS 20 September 2018 14: 46
          +2
          Quote: Izotovp
          Yes, the store for an army pistol for this caliber is already small.

          Even the blame PM put a weak cartridge, which is probably, given the modern means of protection, relevant.
      2. Kot_Kuzya
        Kot_Kuzya 19 September 2018 10: 37
        +14
        Where are you going to shoot a pistol at 25 m? The gun is designed for offhand shooting at a distance of 5-15 meters, or even closer. To supply pistols with adjustable pillars at 50-200 m is either stupid or a marketing move, as Mauser once graduated his S-96 at 1000 m, although it’s clear to the hedgehog that even at 500 m you can get into the growth target only by accident.
        1. DimerVladimer
          DimerVladimer 19 September 2018 15: 10
          -8
          Quote: Kot_Kuzya
          Where are you going to shoot a pistol at 25 m? The gun is designed for offhand shooting at a distance of 5-15 meters, or even closer.


          The combat use of pistols implies fire contact at a distance of 50-150 meters.
          To do this, hold the gun with both hands.

          This krivoruky do not hit the target with 25 m.

          And the descent force of 4 kg (!) Who is this? Exactly a sports shooting expert was developing?
          Probably indicated for samovzvoda?
          Since for pre-cocked weapons, the normal force is 1,5-2,5 kg.
          For sports, even less.

          And about the accuracy for the Beretta 92: when shooting 25 m from the stop, all 15 hits fall into a circle with a radius of 30 mm. When firing at 50 m, 10 series of 10 shots, each series of hits fall into a circle with a radius of 70 mm.
          For comparison, the last indicator for a TT pistol is 150 mm, for a PM pistol - 160 mm.

          So who advocates for the MP does not quite imagine the possibilities of other common pistols.
          1. Kot_Kuzya
            Kot_Kuzya 19 September 2018 15: 38
            +7
            Quote: DimerVladimer
            The combat use of pistols implies fire contact at a distance of 50-150 meters.
            To do this, hold the gun with both hands.

            Rave. Actually, here adults write, not schoolchildren.
            Quote: DimerVladimer
            And about the accuracy for the Beretta 92: when shooting 25 m from the stop, all 15 hits fall into a circle with a radius of 30 mm. When firing at 50 m, 10 series of 10 shots, each series of hits fall in a circle with a radius of 70 mm

            Delirium, delirium, delirium! Such accuracy is presented to the machines.
          2. Horse, people and soul
            Horse, people and soul 19 September 2018 19: 21
            +7
            Do not confuse the technical accuracy of pistol shooting with the real feasibility of such shooting and the ability to shoot a specific shooter.

            Any gun is more accurate than its shooter.
            The shooter practically needs to be shot at a much shorter distance than the gun can accurately shoot at.

            And, yes, you need to shoot with a powerful military cartridge, shoot fast, shoot more or less accurately (two bullets per target at least), shoot in motion, from unstable positions, with your left hand for right-handed people, etc.
          3. gross kaput
            gross kaput 19 September 2018 20: 06
            +8
            Quote: DimerVladimer
            The combat use of pistols implies fire contact at a distance of 50-150 meters.

            Do space rangers have it otherwise?
          4. aws4
            aws4 20 September 2018 00: 03
            +3
            class !!! Yes, that they are shy from the stop, I propose to give our mulitseoners Berettas with tripods folding machines and optics to stick them removable ...
      3. bistrov.
        bistrov. 19 September 2018 11: 56
        +3
        Quote: Andrey Yurievich
        late dad (police major)

        I found "good" shooters, -menty, but their hands are always shaking with a hangover. From twenty-five meters, I still only hit the top ten from the PM, occasionally I break a nine or eight, although I am 67 years old, I tried to shoot 50 meters, aimed at the body of a growth target, the spread, of course, was within 20 see Take the front sight, in this case, you need a little higher. Nothing complicated.
        1. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 19 September 2018 13: 57
          +8
          Aimed shooting and the police are poorly compatible things. And not only with us.
          ... the NYPD's standard regular firearms training course includes the following compulsory shots: 45 training shots at fixed targets at 7, 15 and 25 yards, practice shots on the "tactical pistol course" (number of shots not specified) and credit firing 50 shots at fixed targets at ranges of 7, 15 and 25 yards.
          Semiannually.

          Result? the average hit rate for NYPD officers is 18%. Provided that the enemy did not fire back, this percentage rises to 30%. On average, in the event of a shootout, a cop fires about 8 bullets.
          © Max Popenker
        2. Horse, people and soul
          Horse, people and soul 19 September 2018 19: 00
          +6
          And what is the practical sense of shooting slowly and concentratedly at 25 meters from the PM and even at 50 meters? For the love of art, or what?

          The practical sense is to shoot a pistol from 3 to 15 meters in motion from uncomfortable positions, from around the corners, from the left hand for the right-hander and for a while. I saw how people from two meters so missed the target.

          hi
          1. Alexey RA
            Alexey RA 20 September 2018 11: 52
            0
            Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
            And what is the practical sense of shooting slowly and concentratedly at 25 meters from the PM and even at 50 meters? For the love of art, or what?

            It's not about distances. The point is the number of spent cartridges and the frequency of firing. smile
            1. Horse, people and soul
              Horse, people and soul 20 September 2018 18: 03
              +1
              And in the distances. And in the rate of fire. And exactly. And in the power (caliber) of ammunition.

              A paper target can wait while you target it. The real goal will not wait, but will start to shoot.

              Therefore, in real life you will not have time to aim the "ten". Then why train exactly this skill? It is enough to get into the center of the torso two times, but as quickly as possible. Then you will have a chance not to get a bullet in return.
        3. Okolotochny
          Okolotochny 19 September 2018 22: 12
          -4
          Judge for “hands” in Ukrainian? Or have you seen enough movies? Shkolota, and all argue with adults pulls?
        4. The comment was deleted.
      4. Grenader
        Grenader 20 September 2018 10: 35
        +3
        Quote: Andrey Yurievich
        yah! "Makar" is a so-so pistol, reliable of course, but no more. Getting out of it is not easy. further 25m - in general, fantastic, the deceased dad (police major) took me to the shooting range, I personally could not just hit the target, well, yes, 16 years old, the hand is "not trained", there is no experience, but I saw how others smeared.

        It's all in the direct hands on this video that the American grandfather hits from 75 meters.
      5. serg123
        serg123 23 September 2018 18: 07
        0
        You need to know which part of the phalanx of the finger to press the trigger. The fact that they did not hit the target at the shooting range, we can assume that they did not correctly pull the trigger and aimed for a long time.
        1. alex-cn
          alex-cn 27 October 2018 18: 08
          0
          The whole argument comes down to one sentence. As he told us, still the boys, and another lieutenant, dvoeshnik, drove three bullets from three into the thrown cap. Do not know how to shoot - do not use weapons. Yes, the old model, yes, the store is small, maybe the cartridge is rather weak ... but remember Colt 911 and think about it ...
      6. ver_
        ver_ 27 November 2018 10: 31
        0
        ... the officer’s personal weapon is not intended for * military operations in the field * - it is shooting at very short distances - such as premises, shooting * offhand * when time goes on for seconds ... and fractions of a second ..
    2. vkl.47
      vkl.47 19 September 2018 07: 13
      +3
      Browning scheme. Nothing new
      1. Dedrusav
        Dedrusav 23 September 2018 12: 53
        +1
        Which Browning? It has two main circuits, but none with a free shutter. "browning" ...)))
    3. Slon1978
      Slon1978 19 September 2018 07: 42
      -5
      Somehow you all mixed in a bunch. The problem with the superjet is not at all unreliability (did you read your link yourself?), But in the logistics of spare parts - slowly and bureaucratically. According to the most severe USSR requirements for testing pistols, this has long been an anachronism, such strict requirements are now clearly redundant and are not applied anywhere in the world. It would be justifiable and one could be proud of such severe tests if Russia were a recognized leader in the development and production of this type of weapon. Is that so? These unnecessarily stringent test requirements lead to unnecessary (reserve) weights in the elements of parts, unnecessarily powerful springs, etc. The product turns out to be tight, tight and inaccurate.
      1. Kot_Kuzya
        Kot_Kuzya 19 September 2018 10: 49
        +6
        Quote: Slon1978
        These unnecessarily stringent test requirements lead to unnecessary (reserve) weights in the elements of parts, unnecessarily powerful springs, etc. The product turns out to be tight, tight and inaccurate

        Any army weapon should have a margin of safety, if it is not, this is not an army weapon, but a sport one, designed for shooting in sterile shooting conditions, where there is no dirt, and all the cartridges are perfect. An example is ABC and CBT. The desire to make rifles as light as possible to fit in the TTZ, where the weight of the rifle should not exceed 4,5 kg, made these rifles extremely sensitive to contamination and difficult to operate. Due to the same desire to make it easier, they used high-quality alloy steel grades for the production of rifles, as a result of which they also became very expensive. As a result, as soon as the total war of attrition began, the production of military hardware was turned off, and instead they began to produce cheap, simple and reliable in operation Mosinki and PPSh.
        According to Isaev's data in his book "Ten Myths of the Second World War," the purchase price for Mosinka was 163 rubles, DP 787 rubles, SVT 880 rubles. As you can see, SVT even cost more than DP, apparently because of the use of high-quality steels.
        1. SASHA OLD
          SASHA OLD 22 September 2018 22: 27
          0
          I respect Isaev, read this book
    4. would
      would 19 September 2018 09: 04
      +2
      Yeah "did not complain". Right on the pages of VO, comrades from the traffic police complained that the weak 9x18 could not pierce the tires of trucks that, on duty, had to be stopped, it was possible to pierce only with the help of AKSU.
      1. venik
        venik 19 September 2018 10: 34
        +4
        Quote: rait
        Right on the pages of VO, comrades from the traffic police complained that the weak 9x18 could not break through the tires of trucks, which, on duty, should be stopped, they could break through only with the help of ACSU.

        =======
        In the early 90s, my old friend (he was then working in a criminal investigation department) told how they took a bandit - he tried to leave for ZiL ..... He did not let himself be overtaken (and it was no use - ZiL "Zhigulenok" as a canning would crumple the jar ...). They "landed" with two barrels along the clip - they saw how bullets ricocheted from the rear wheels .... None of them pierced !!! If the traffic policemen in front of the studded tape had not stretched out, he could have left ...
        1. bistrov.
          bistrov. 19 September 2018 18: 05
          +3
          Quote: venik
          seen bullets from the rear wheels ricochet.

          However, when shooting at a tree (ash), from a distance of 15 m., The bullet goes deep to 5 cm.
        2. passerby5
          passerby5 28 September 2018 20: 41
          0
          he takes a passenger car from the side of the tire only. shot at the cord from 25 m. to no avail
      2. Kot_Kuzya
        Kot_Kuzya 19 September 2018 10: 52
        0
        Let them still complain that PM does not break brickwork. Do they shoot truck tires every day? If every day, then let them carry a machine with them. Each weapon is designed for its purpose.
        1. would
          would 19 September 2018 12: 00
          +6
          Not just every day, but the obligation to stop a vehicle (including a truck) is directly spelled out in the relevant job descriptions and npa, which is much more obligatory than "every day". But not every crew is supposed to AKSU, and people more or less familiar with the situation know why.

          But the brickwork in the instructions and responsibilities are not.
          1. Kot_Kuzya
            Kot_Kuzya 19 September 2018 12: 17
            -1
            Demand then an automatic machine, since every day you stop the trucks with a shot at the wheels.
      3. Svateev
        Svateev 19 September 2018 11: 22
        -4
        Quote: rait
        weak 9x18 cannot penetrate truck tires

        There are our armor-piercing pistol cartridges and pistols for them - GSH-18 and others. They pierce even light body armor.
        And the cartridge 9x19 mm Parabellum is firstly out of date, like the cartridge for Makarov, and secondly, THIS IS NOT OUR CARTRIDGE. Where will we get them?
        Concern Kalashnikov turned on foreign lotions - picatinny bars and more. Here is the obsolete cartridge of Parabellum drags to us.
        1. would
          would 19 September 2018 12: 07
          +4
          You have incredibly wrong misconceptions about 9x19 and GSH.

          "Not ours" is how? With the same success, one can say that the AK is not ours because the butterfly valve was not invented in Russia. 9x19 was indeed developed in Austria in 1902, but the caliber itself was copied and mastered in a bunch of countries, including ours. Including our cartridges were developed strictly for it.

          Next comes the terrible mutual exclusion

          "Where are we going to get them?" and at the same time "There are armor-piercing our pistol cartridges and pistols for them - GSh-18 "

          What is the caliber GS-18? The very 9x19 for which our cartridges are developed, including 7N31. And they come from our factories, but where did the ammunition designed and produced in Russia come from?

          Well, I would very much like to see data on some obsolescence of the 9x19 caliber. I would very much like to see, especially in the context of the relatively recent reverse transition of the FBI and the US police from .40S & W to 9x19. It turned out that the 9x19 cartridges were so improved that they showed identical results with the .40S & W.
          1. Svateev
            Svateev 19 September 2018 12: 29
            -6
            Quote: rait
            incredibly wrong fallacies

            Already a funny start ...
            Quote: rait
            "Not ours" is how?

            It's simple: we do not produce ammunition for parabellum.
            Quote: rait
            What is GS-18 caliber? The same 9x19

            What about internal ballistics? Familiar with this? If a GS cartridge is suitable for a submarine, then this is NOT a Parabellum cartridge. And if the submarine fires a truly Parabellum cartridge, then the GS cartridge will not approach it.
            Quote: rait
            cartridges in 9x19 have so improved

            That they have become completely different from those that were developed for parabellum and are unlikely to be suitable for classical parabellum.
            1. would
              would 19 September 2018 12: 34
              0
              Well, as expected, essentially nothing has been clarified, just more incredible misconceptions have been imposed

              What about internal ballistics? Familiar with this?


              How does the internal ballistics affect (in the case of 9x19) the distance between the bottom of the opposite rifling?
              1. Svateev
                Svateev 19 September 2018 12: 52
                -2
                Quote: rait
                How does the internal ballistics affect (in the case of 9x19) the distance between the bottom of the opposite rifling?

                I see ... I explain:
                Internal ballistics does not affect the caliber (in your terminology - "the distance between the bottom of the grooves"). But she studies, among other things, the dynamics of gas pressure in the bore. The pressure builds up differently for different cartridges. Therefore, it is often impossible to use different cartridges of the same caliber and even the same length of the sleeve.
                1. would
                  would 19 September 2018 13: 00
                  +1
                  Actually, as we can see, you do not know what the caliber is (you do not even know how it is measured, which is clearly shown by the phrase "in your terminology) and the cartridge are different concepts and mixed them into one pile, from this such epic delusions appeared.

                  When you learn what a cartridge is, what is a caliber and what is the difference then we'll talk. Without knowledge of the basics, you will not understand anything, and in fact, as we see, you do not understand.
                  1. Nosgoth
                    Nosgoth 19 September 2018 16: 09
                    +2
                    Do not pay attention, such Wikipedia-scientists are now the sea.
                    1. Mordvin 3
                      Mordvin 3 19 September 2018 18: 58
                      -1
                      Quote: Nosgoth
                      Do not pay attention, such Wikipedia-scientists are now the sea.

                      Svateev is not a wiki scientist. The minus is mine.
                  2. Svateev
                    Svateev 23 September 2018 16: 35
                    0
                    Quote: rait
                    caliber ... and cartridge are different concepts

                    I just told you that. Got it, finally?
          2. Horse, people and soul
            Horse, people and soul 19 September 2018 18: 46
            +5
            There are no misconceptions regarding the 9x19 Parabellum, 9x19 NATO, 9x19 7H31.

            These are just geometrically similar cartridges. In reality, they are different, because the weapon is tested according to SAAMI and CIP standards for maximum pressure in the barrel. For these cartridges it is different.

            Roughly speaking, the Parabellum 9x19 is a standard cartridge, the NATO 9x19 cartridge is a highly mediated + P cartridge, and the 9x19 7H31 is a very very mediated + P + cartridge.

            NATO pistols will not live long with 7H31. And Russian pistols under 7H31 live and spit out any 9x19 cartridges that are in nature today.

            Glock 17 has a proven shot of more than 350 thousand, but these are standard 9x19, although Glock 17 is certified under the NATO military cartridge.

            In order for the Glock to eat 7H31, it is necessary to take the Glock 31 as a basis and put a special barrel with a 9x19 chamber in it. This barrel will have thicker walls than the Glock 17, and the outside diameter of the barrel will be the same as .40 S&W and .357 Sig for the Glock 31. This barrel is produced by the Austrian firm IGB Austria.
            1. 4thParasinok
              4thParasinok 26 September 2018 12: 11
              0
              Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
              Roughly speaking, the Parabellum 9x19 is a standard cartridge, the NATO 9x19 cartridge is a highly mediated + P cartridge, and the 9x19 7H31 is a very very mediated + P + cartridge.

              9x19 NATO is exactly + P +, but 7H31, although according to the documents it refers to supermagnums, until this year, almost all were produced with a reduced weight and, at best, were magnums (P +). For this reason, last year they were forced to redo the PL-15 (the alteration was completed with this vein, official infa from the Kalashnikov concern).
              Glock 17 shoots the whole range of cartridges 9x19 ...
              So conik you again burst.
        2. feokot1982
          feokot1982 19 September 2018 12: 17
          +1
          GSh-18 is the same under the cartridge 9x19
          1. Horse, people and soul
            Horse, people and soul 19 September 2018 19: 26
            0
            GSh-18 under the cartridge 9x19, certified under pressure in the barrel of the cartridge 7H31.
        3. 4thParasinok
          4thParasinok 26 September 2018 11: 58
          0
          Quote: Svateev
          And the cartridge 9x19 mm Parabellum is firstly out of date, like the cartridge for Makarov, and secondly, THIS IS NOT OUR CARTRIDGE. Where will we get them?

          A cartridge 9x19 mm Parabellum adopted for service 25 years ago.
          Quote: Svateev
          There are our armor-piercing pistol cartridges and pistols for them - GS-18 and others.

          GS-18 fires ammunition 9x19 mm Parabellum ...
          Before writing, take an interest in a subject of a question.
    5. Alexey-74
      Alexey-74 20 September 2018 14: 45
      0
      I think the PL-15 will be a worthy replacement for the PM, but you need to replace it someday (already in 1951 !!!) ... the reviews on the Internet about the submarines seem to be wonderful .... time will tell, the replacement will be smooth and the security officials will evaluate and compare models.
      1. 4thParasinok
        4thParasinok 26 September 2018 12: 15
        0
        Quote: Alexey-74
        I think the PL-15 will be a worthy replacement for the PM, but you need to replace it someday (already in 1951 !!!) ... the reviews on the Internet about the submarines seem to be wonderful .... time will tell, the replacement will be smooth and the security officials will evaluate and compare models.

        Well, for the police back in September 2017, the PL-15k was adopted for weapons, so let's hope that they will soon compare ...
  2. 2329 Carpenter
    2329 Carpenter 19 September 2018 06: 21
    -4
    I thought that he was torn up with the General Staff ...
    But still a pretty "whip".
    1. Grandfather
      Grandfather 19 September 2018 06: 43
      -1
      Quote: Andrey Yurievich
      "Makar" is a so-so pistol, reliable of course, but no more

      I, too, "do not look" from him to shoot ... would try this one. but probably not destiny.
    2. Uncle Vanya Susanin
      Uncle Vanya Susanin 19 September 2018 08: 41
      +6
      Not "whip", but "volyna"
  3. Konatantin 1992
    Konatantin 1992 19 September 2018 06: 56
    -3
    Well, if they will at least produce and deliver to various structures in small batches, then this is already overwhelming.
    1. Serge Gorely
      Serge Gorely 19 September 2018 08: 28
      +10
      Well ffso! The main thing is the picatinny rail. What percentage of shooters is REALLY needed in the Ministry of Defense and the Ministry of Internal Affairs on a pistol? This resembles the desire of the Maydan everywhere, down to the toilet, to draw their own yellow-blakitny.
      1. Shopping Mall
        Shopping Mall 19 September 2018 10: 47
        +2
        It is rather the inertia of thinking. Most recently, this was a key trend on weapons - the slats are always and everywhere ours and mold them everywhere.
        Now there is another trend - modular systems M-LOK and KeyMod.
        http://ekipirovka4you.ru/keymod/
        http://ekipirovka4you.ru/m-lok/
        In fact, it is an opportunity to independently put the slats to whom they are needed, and where they are needed. Do not need - put a stub.
        Both systems are open, no need to pay for use.
        1. Svateev
          Svateev 19 September 2018 11: 31
          +4
          Quote: AVM
          It is rather the inertia of thinking.

          This is admiration for the west. And inertia would force the use of the "Dovetail".
          1. Serge Gorely
            Serge Gorely 19 September 2018 21: 03
            +1
            Quote: Svateev
            Quote: AVM
            It is rather the inertia of thinking.

            This is admiration for the west. And inertia would force the use of the "Dovetail".

            Five points!
          2. Tarikxnumx
            Tarikxnumx 21 September 2018 20: 01
            +2
            I am not a supporter of picunics on weapons around. But ... This is an opportunity to use any convenient sighting and other devices that improve the quality of shooting. If there is a long rail along the entire weapon, the same collimator and holo-sight can be placed both on the edge of the receiver, near the stock, and on the forend, and if necessary, you can install the sight using an adapter for the bracket through the adapter. All depending on preferences. Can you do this with a dovetail? Even Peter the Great did not hesitate to use the inventions of foreigners and their knowledge, if it was profitable and provided convenience and advantage. Why spend resources and time on inventing your own version of the same cartridge, if you can take someone else's development as a basis and creatively process it to your requirements and wishes ... In technical and engineering solutions, borrowing is not something bad. We borrowed Christie’s suspension, borrowed a rational reservation system, took a motor invented by a German, creatively reworked all this and got the best WWII tank in terms of all its characteristics. There, the Chinese, by directly copying everything and everything in general, built the world's leading economy. So what? What does the worship of the West then? If the thing is really convenient and beneficial?
        2. 4thParasinok
          4thParasinok 4 November 2018 19: 47
          0
          Quote: AVM
          It is rather the inertia of thinking. Most recently, this was a key trend on weapons - the slats are always and everywhere ours and mold them everywhere.
          Now there is another trend - modular systems M-LOK and KeyMod.

          M-LOK and KeyMod are the same picatinni with only other sizes, and I remember there is no license on picatinny, it is simply forbidden in the USA to use it on originally civilian weapons (built-in solution). For civilians there was a weaver. Here weaver is paid.
  4. air wolf
    air wolf 19 September 2018 09: 21
    +8
    I understand that KK wants to occupy its niche and earn loot, for many years of service to me PM as a native, knocked out 29 out of three shots, and I think that they wouldn’t come up with the best PM for everything, I would love to buy the PM if I were allowed in the Baltic states and others. countries of the eastern bloc after decommissioning, I do not even want the PMM! The bullet’s flight speed is small, if you look closely in sunny weather, you can see how the bullets from the PM fly, you can adjust the shooting. And since all PMs are shot at 8-ku for 16 hours, this is for your development, if your eyes are normal of course)))
  5. san4es
    san4es 19 September 2018 10: 08
    +3
    hi ... Related videos.
    Lebedev pistol PL-15 - an interview with Dmitry Lebedev.
  6. Operator
    Operator 19 September 2018 10: 35
    0
    A representative of the Kalashnikov concern in a recent interview revealed the secret of the PM's longevity and the lameness of various Yarygins, Serdyukovs, etc. - for the serial production of submarines in 2019, imported machine equipment is purchased.

    Those. Soviet equipment of the 1950-s sample could produce nothing but PM in principle.
  7. Seamaster
    Seamaster 19 September 2018 10: 55
    +8
    Downhill effort of 4 kg - isn't that much for accurate shooting?
    It's like a "revolver" self-cocking.
    The bullets will fly "at the neighbor on the right."
    1. Svateev
      Svateev 19 September 2018 11: 28
      +2
      Quote: Seamaster
      isn't it a bit much for accurate shooting?

      A lot of course. But otherwise, this submarine spontaneously shoots when it falls from a person’s height. In the article, it is almost directly written:
      the trigger stroke was deliberately made large, and the force when pressed is 4 kg - this is more than that of analogues. A spontaneous shot is almost impossible
      1. Operator
        Operator 19 September 2018 11: 46
        +5
        According to current concepts, tight descent is an additional fuse in army / police weapons and the only one in civilian.

        It all came from American police officers who like to carry a pistol on their hips with the fuse removed, and in the event of an unexpected shoot-out, they instinctively press the trigger without pulling the gun from their holster and regularly shoot their legs.
        1. Svateev
          Svateev 19 September 2018 11: 51
          0
          Quote: Operator
          tight descent is an additional safety lock

          Once again I will quote this advertising article itself:
          pressing force is 4 kg - it is more than analogs. A spontaneous shot is almost impossible..

          That is, with all our other pistols and with a less tight descent, a spontaneous shot is not possible. And in the submarine, in order to prevent a spontaneous shot, it was necessary to do a more tight descent.
          1. Operator
            Operator 19 September 2018 12: 00
            +1
            Actually, the trigger force is controlled by replacing the trigger spring.

            Earlier, the concern stated that it plans to enter the civilian market with the PL-15K without a fuse.
            1. Svateev
              Svateev 19 September 2018 12: 37
              0
              Quote: Operator
              enter the civilian market with the PL-15K without a fuse.

              No fuse at all? Then this is a narrow-niche weapon of self-defense - shooting without unnecessary operations, but not exactly, that is, at point-blank range on the attacker. For the army is not good.
              1. Operator
                Operator 19 September 2018 12: 46
                +2
                For the army, the KK plans to release versions of pistols with a fuse.
                1. Svateev
                  Svateev 19 September 2018 12: 55
                  +2
                  Quote: Operator
                  For the army, the KK plans to release versions of pistols with a fuse.

                  Then why for the army a tight descent?
                  1. Operator
                    Operator 19 September 2018 12: 59
                    +2
                    Perhaps the representative of the concern is not able to clearly articulate their thoughts laughing
                  2. 4thParasinok
                    4thParasinok 4 November 2018 20: 07
                    0
                    Quote: Svateev
                    Then why for the army a tight descent?

                    Quote: Operator
                    Perhaps the representative of the concern is not able to clearly articulate their thoughts laughing
                    For those in the tank:
                    1. The submarine will be available with different types of trigger systems - trigger and bezkurkoy. At the same time, a version has been developed in which replaceable blocks are used with the choice of more convenient.
                    2. The descent force of 4 kg will be on the PL-15k (trigger trigger) for the police.
                    3. For athletes, the descent force is expected to be adjustable, but for the rest, constant, but not yet known, the same as the type of trigger.
                    4. For the army, the trigger version is not yet known, comparative tests are underway, but most likely bezukurkovy (for fans of the foreign, a striker) or with a replaceable unit. The descent force is also not known.
                    This is some forum users do not know how to search and analyze the Old, and this article was written by the same user ....
        2. Svateev
          Svateev 19 September 2018 12: 40
          0
          Quote: Operator
          Everything came from the American police who ... regularly shoot their legs.

          Will it prevent a tighter descent? Hardly. So maybe it’s not worth repeating the mistakes of others?
          1. Operator
            Operator 19 September 2018 12: 48
            +2
            As American practice shows, it prevents. As for the mistakes - this is to the pistol guns presented at VO.

            From the point of view of ergonomics, the PL-15 has a too gripped down grip of the hand - t.s. sports.
            1. Svateev
              Svateev 19 September 2018 12: 57
              0
              Quote: Operator
              As American practice shows, it prevents.

              Oh, this "American practice" for me! I would like to get to know her, maybe - :))
              1. Operator
                Operator 19 September 2018 13: 01
                0
                American practice can be found on the Internet under the search key "police descent".
            2. 4thParasinok
              4thParasinok 4 November 2018 20: 18
              0
              Quote: Operator
              From the point of view of ergonomics, the PL-15 has a too gripped down grip of the hand - t.s. sports.

              for athletes in the first place is the maximum naturalness of the grip without distortion of the joints of the hand. And if they could do it in military weapons without losing the reliability of supplying a cartridge to the chamber, then they are great. At one time, the PM won the competition only because Makarov reduced the angle of the handle in spite of the competition requirements, which led to the cessation of cartridge bias. But at the same time, firing accuracy decreased. The problem was the ratio of caliber and sleeve length ...
              My experience of shooting from PM, TT and Margolin - the highest speed of aiming at a target is with Margolin, and not PMa.
              1. Operator
                Operator 4 November 2018 20: 40
                0
                The highest speed of aiming at the target at Parabellum with the handle tilted at 120 degrees and without blocking the grip down is the last absolutely unnatural and can only be developed by the training of athletes.

                Therefore, the PL-15 will not be able to become an army or police weapon.

                At the same time, the meaning of Lebedev’s decision is understandable - to minimize the distance between the axis of the barrel (the recoil line) and the upper point of the stick in the wrist. But this is achieved much easier and more efficiently by lowering the return spring down to the level of the trigger guard (see Hudson Mfg).
                1. 4thParasinok
                  4thParasinok 4 November 2018 21: 08
                  0
                  Quote: Operator
                  The highest speed of aiming at the target at Parabellum with the handle tilted at 120 degrees and without blocking the grip down is the last absolutely unnatural and can only be developed by the training of athletes.

                  1. Debatable
                  2. depends on the brush and the place of the beginning of the narrowing.
                  3. The PL-15 has removable grip pads, at the expense of the back, I don’t remember, but it seems to have the same.
                  4. The gun is still being brought in, including the frame.
                  Quote: Operator
                  PL-15 will not be able to become an army or police weapon.

                  do not give out your prejudices for an axiom.
                  1. Operator
                    Operator 4 November 2018 21: 30
                    0
                    PL-15 cannot be brought to Hudson Mfg by definition.
                    1. 4thParasinok
                      4thParasinok 6 November 2018 14: 43
                      0
                      Quote: Operator
                      PL-15 cannot be brought to Hudson Mfg by definition.

                      laughing ridiculed however ...
                      Tell the ignoramus which army of the world adopted this alteration of the 1911 system for a striker, and for one it will sound its price, I remember more than 1000 $ in the USA itself. And the tilt of the handle is much worse than the PL-15, and even more so than that of your favorite parabellum. Of course I understand that you are a writer, but ...
                      1. 4thParasinok
                        4thParasinok 6 November 2018 15: 27
                        0
                        Hudson Mfg is a pistol for post-shootings, not the army, and not for constant wear when it weighs 963 g without cartridges and a barrel length of 109 mm. With the same barrel, the PL-15k weighs 720 g (PL-15: 800g with a barrel length of 120mm), but it is planned to produce a model with a duralumin frame, which is minus 100 grams ...
                        comparing a pistol created for a shooting gallery with a development for the army is the same as comparing a Yak-52 and MiG-27.
                      2. Operator
                        Operator 6 November 2018 18: 29
                        0
                        Yes, yes, yes - where does he go before the army Yarygin laughing
                      3. 4thParasinok
                        4thParasinok 6 November 2018 18: 44
                        0
                        another proof: "Chukchi is not a reader, Chukchi is a writer" .... The main thing is to write, but about what it is not important, because there is no time to think and nothing. By the way, I read 2 of your articles, they are from the same opera, no matter what, the main thing is to write, even if you don't know the topic of the question.
                      4. Operator
                        Operator 6 November 2018 18: 48
                        0
                        Learn the materiel - how M-LOK differs from Picatinny, then we'll talk laughing
                      5. 4thParasinok
                        4thParasinok 22 January 2019 15: 13
                        0
                        Quote: Operator
                        Learn the materiel - how M-LOK differs from Picatinny, then we'll talk laughing

                        1. regarding the free license:
                        Although M-LOK has a free license, it is not open source , and therefore manufacturers must purchase a license from Magpulbefore creating products using the M-LOK standard.
                        I hope you are able to understand that Magpul decides to whom to permit production, and to whom not? Accordingly, for a manufacturer from Russia, definitely not.
                        2. there are only two differences. And the way the bar is attached to the weapon itself is at the level of what color to paint, it has no global significance. But the difference between the connection node to the weapon is just other linear dimensions, and even metric instead of inch. But for this mount there are very few sights, depending on the ones produced for the Picatinny rail and Weaver rail, and those made for the Weaver rail are mounted on the Picatinny rail.
                        For your information, the Picatinny rail standard does not say how the bar is attached to the weapon - this is the problem of the manufacturer itself, and today it is open, since the patent for Picatinny ended back in 2010. Now NATO has adopted a new standard: NATO Accessory Rail or STANAG 4694 compatible with MIL-STD 1913 (the same Picatinny rail).

                        But this has nothing to do with the PL-15 ... But I’m tired of talking to the ignoramus, write further what you want.
        3. Horse, people and soul
          Horse, people and soul 19 September 2018 18: 32
          0
          They are not taught to remove a finger from the descent. They don’t teach at all.

          The American cops shot their thighs, holstering their pistols. And the finger was on the descent.
          1. bunta
            bunta 19 September 2018 19: 03
            +2
            No finger was where necessary. Just the finger rests on the hard edge of the holster and slides to the SK.
            1. Horse, people and soul
              Horse, people and soul 19 September 2018 19: 30
              +1
              Why isn’t it slipping?

              What am I doing wrong?

              The same holster "Military and Sport", the same Glock 17.

              Maybe this is my finger, where necessary, but they still do not?
              1. bunta
                bunta 20 September 2018 08: 03
                +2
                Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
                What am I doing wrong?

                Are you an American cop? Do you handle weapons under stress? As for personal merits. Despite increased propaganda, many still pee past the toilet. This is where the FBI man shot through someone else’s leg simply by lifting the gun from the floor.
                https://youtu.be/ueO1mFzr92Y
                He was also not taught where to stick a finger. The statistics are purple your personal experience, skill or ability. The absence of a normal fuse definitely leads to uncontrolled descents, regardless of the action - investing in a holster or grip or in any other handling. And they are much more diverse than exercises in the dash.
                1. Horse, people and soul
                  Horse, people and soul 20 September 2018 18: 09
                  -1
                  That’s the point - American cops are not well taught.
                  Austrians and Latvians do not shoot themselves in a bastard, but shoot only cops in the state of New York.

                  In the entire history of IPSC, EMNIP, there was not a single crossbow. On all continents.

                  laughing
              2. Wildcat
                Wildcat 20 September 2018 18: 23
                +1
                Of course, the finger is not where you need it! smile
                The tip is, "Don't do that anymore, Texas Rangers!"
                http://www.icollector.com/Factory-Engraved-Colt-1911-45-cal-SN-C176166-National-Match-semi-automatic-pistol-with-factor-lett_i12691414
        4. Note 2
          Note 2 22 September 2018 08: 57
          0
          The American police have nothing to do with it, the effort of 4 kg is designed to make the army shooter consciously fire a shot. At least Lebedev himself says in one of his comments, but for experienced shooters, the trigger can be mounted on the gun with much less effort descent.
      2. Wildcat
        Wildcat 19 September 2018 23: 59
        +2
        IMHO: 4 kg for the descent is very, very bad. Why can not you make a fuse, by analogy with Glock, on the trigger (and let it fall ...)? Non-automatic fuse-controversial thing for an army pistol.
        If we take a role model in the army, then this is Glock17: cheap, reliable, can be worn with a cartridge (and there are 17 of them) in the chamber, there is no non-automatic fuse (only, IMHO, not very convenient). So that if the carrier of the pistol comes out in the evening out of necessity and to look at the stars - and here are the enemies. They wanted him to be taken away in full, and our hero was on the one hand (the second one was busy with the Charter) - the cartridge was in the chamber - he dropped a clip on it, whom he killed, whom bulletproof vests and helmets did not really help. :-) Here in the fairy tale is a hint that the caliber of an army pistol should allow light body armor and a helmet to pierce - and this, probably, is from 9 * 21.
        From the pros - you can see the installation of the collimator (that is, there is a landing slot) and, perhaps, there is an adjustment of the rear sight !!! The ability to adjust the handle is also a big plus. The cartridge index in the chamber is also a plus. A notch in the front ... well, this is not necessary for combatant. It is not clear what it is made of - judging by the photo, metal, which is not very. The issue of caliber is .45, .40., 9 * 19, 9 * 18, and so on - in fact, the question of different tasks and the manufacture of weapons for different calibers (the FBI switched to .40 p .38 after one interesting story, and the army USA after the other - at .45).
        And the quality of the manufacture of weapons ... We wish the manufacturer good luck, he will definitely cram his creation, well, I would like it better than PY / Viking.
  8. Andrey VOV
    Andrey VOV 19 September 2018 12: 07
    +6
    I had PM 65 assigned to me in the service, was shot perfectly, worked like a clock ... I probably gave a swindler about 15 meters straight to the buttock when he tried to laugh off during the stupidity of a young convoy ...) ))) I never thought that there could be a lot of blood in the ass))) but everything has its time ... it is clear that the good old Makarych should be replaced by a replacement ... but a decent replacement .. simplicity and reliability
    1. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 19 September 2018 18: 28
      -1
      It is good that the "swindler" was unarmed. Otherwise, he would have turned around and, out of resentment, released the store for change.

      laughing
      1. Okolotochny
        Okolotochny 19 September 2018 22: 20
        -1
        Are you worried about a crook?
        1. Horse, people and soul
          Horse, people and soul 20 September 2018 18: 12
          0
          For the arrow.

          laughing

          PM was done on the post-war generation of dystrophics 60-70 kg 160-170 cm tall men. And he worked for them. And on today's elephants of 100 kg and a height of 180-190 cm is no longer enough.

          On American elephants with a waist of 150 cm and a weight of 120 kg, a .45 ACP with a standard FMJ bullet is also not enough.
    2. Wildcat
      Wildcat 20 September 2018 00: 04
      +3
      PM is good :-). Compared with the TT, it is much more comfortable in shooting, IMHO. It’s just that years have passed, other materials and requirements have appeared: it’s too big for secretive wearing, but for a holster weapon I would like a bigger clip!
      1. Note 2
        Note 2 22 September 2018 09: 03
        +1
        According to Makarov himself, he conducted a survey of front-line soldiers about which pistol they like most of all. He turned out to be Walther PP and was taken as the basis for the construction of the PM.
  9. senima56
    senima56 19 September 2018 14: 58
    +4
    It seems the author is confusing: the "full" version of the PL-15 has a 15-round magazine, but the "short" version of the PL-14K has 15 rounds! There is a video on YouTube with shooting and they warn that the store from "short" to "full" PL-15 is not suitable! And from PL-15 to PL-15K - it fits!
    The author should study the material properly before writing!
    1. 4thParasinok
      4thParasinok 4 November 2018 20: 23
      0
      Quote: senima56
      The author should study the material properly before writing!

      he is not a reader, he is a writer ...
  10. tracer
    tracer 19 September 2018 15: 05
    +2
    By the initially taught specialization I am not a “pistol”. But I understand in this business very well doing this business (shooting sports and hunting with breaks for service) for many years. So, I personally immediately “hooked” the pistol. I see that it is the fruit of the participation of pistol sportsmen in those shooting disciplines where speed, accuracy and accuracy are needed. Anyone who understands weapons can easily find similar ideas in other designs of pistols from more eminent companies. This is true, but the fact that everything is put together is worthy of attention and support. Someone read that 9x19 Luger is "outdated." Is this the analogy of "the bridge is tired?" development of such pistols (in my opinion). This is FN 5/7. Only the "switch" is uncomfortable. By the way, the undeservedly forgotten TT is a representative of this very concept and a quick pistol bullet.
    1. tracer
      tracer 19 September 2018 15: 20
      0
      In general, in principle, it is possible to remake "old" TTs for 5.7x28 caliber. True, it will have to be thoroughly "sawed". But it's worth it. How the Czechs did FK BRNO. It is clear that we do not produce such cartridges yet. But they will start if there is demand. Like .338 Lapua caliber. Although I'm not sure about its serial production in Russia.
      1. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul 19 September 2018 18: 24
        +2
        It is not worth it. A modern pistol with a polymer frame, made using modern technologies, is very cheap at its cost.

        Leave the TT veteran to collectors.
      2. 4thParasinok
        4thParasinok 4 November 2018 20: 31
        0
        Quote: tracer
        In general, in principle, it is possible to remake "old" TTs for 5.7x28 caliber. True, it will have to be thoroughly "sawed". But it's worth it.

        it's not worth it, even because of the ambiguity of the cartridge itself, and because of the "raw" design of the TT, which was replaced already in 38 year (the competition was announced at 36, as soon as the TT entered the troops) another - Rakov, who beat TT in all respects, however, did not have time to establish production, they planned to start by the end of 41.
    2. Note 2
      Note 2 22 September 2018 09: 09
      +1
      I bet you a plus, however, about the TT and its as you say "fast bullet" I must say that its cartridge does not have sufficient stopping power, as experts say, and the ergonomics of this pistol leaves much to be desired. Browning Fife Seven is also fast, but does not have sufficient stopping power. by force.
  11. DimerVladimer
    DimerVladimer 19 September 2018 15: 17
    +3
    Compactness is called one of the main competitive advantages of the model. If the full-sized PL-15, which is also difficult to call a giant, still has some rather serious competitors in its segment, then the niche claimed by the version of the PL-15K is almost free from competitors.


    Where did the author get this from? It may be free on the Russian market, but on the world market there are a lot of very high-quality and accurate compact products:
    9 mm Walther Creed pistol, for example from modern

    https://topwar.ru/103460-9-mm-pistolet-walther-creed.html
    Isn't your article :))
    1. tracer
      tracer 19 September 2018 16: 03
      +3
      The comparison in this case is with what we have. And not what is in the arms markets. There will never be any new models of pistols, or new concepts for the development of anything, if there is no arms market in Russia. Where the pistol will be a "technical product and a complex device" and not a "bagel" or "fart". See how pistol sport has grown in spite of the antiquated "gun law". It's super prestigious now. And the sport "went", there was an opportunity to purchase pistols from foreign manufacturers, comparing them with Soviet and Russian pistols. And a lot of interesting things turned out ...
  12. shmelik45
    shmelik45 19 September 2018 16: 50
    +1
    Cartridge 9/19 has been releasing Barnaul for a long time. We buy them there for ourselves.
  13. Horse, people and soul
    Horse, people and soul 19 September 2018 18: 20
    +2
    All nishtyaki PL-15 / PL-15K are described in comparison with PM.

    If you compare them with the TC (Tula Korovin 6.35), then nishtyakov will be even more typed.

    lol

    But what if you compare with Glock 17/19, with Walter PPQ M2, with Sig 229?

    hi
  14. nekromonger
    nekromonger 19 September 2018 18: 54
    -1
    PM is a gun to shoot himself, for another it is not suitable.
    1. tracer
      tracer 19 September 2018 19: 10
      0
      I confirm there was such an army "joke" about the PM. This is what our commander used to say, who, unfortunately, had already left us. He will forever remain for me a model of a Russian officer. Knew what he was saying.
      1. John22
        John22 19 September 2018 20: 56
        +5
        There was a joke. But it was repeated only by those who could not shoot. Unfortunately, the shooting technique was lost in the SA; the theory of shooting was not studied. It all came down to combining the front and rear sights on the target. But who wanted to, he independently studied these disciplines and shot and hit 25 and 50 meters. I personally also did this and the result was 8 hits in the chest target at 50 meters. But we need constant training.
        1. tracer
          tracer 19 September 2018 23: 15
          0
          I served in those years and in those troops where they knew how to shoot. Shooting training was at a very high level. We then stuck into the limit of the characteristics of the SVD and danced shamanic dances with her. Which in general did not help much. Its accuracy and accuracy was lacking at long distances, and these famous and inexplicable breaks? Song .. So about PM is "wisdom". By the way, our commander used to say one more story that "Our officers' overcoats are specially sewn so that the enemy does not surrender both hands to the top at the same time cannot be raised." This is also true. And our commander was also against the advancement of a group of paratroopers in the 247th Regiment to the "Donkey's Ear" height. And precisely because with the help they will not be in time if something happens. But the authorities turned out to "know better". And after that tragic battle, part of the blame was hanged to him, remembering his position that he knew, but did not defend the decision in front of the authorities. He has a first and last name, and whoever knows who I am, he knows.
          1. 4thParasinok
            4thParasinok 4 November 2018 20: 43
            0
            Quote: tracer
            And also our commander ...
            there was a comparison of God's gift and fried eggs ...
            1. Being a good officer and being able to shoot a pistol well is absolutely different things ...
            2. Not only did you serve at a time when you had to be able to shoot. In my time there was Avgan and the Chinese border, Baku and Georgia, and my officers were taught by those who fought in Vietnam and Egypt. So let's stop piping up.
            3. At one time, I was familiar with those whom the PM saved only for one reason — they knew how to use a gun, unlike your commander.
    2. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 19 September 2018 19: 34
      +1
      PM was done on the post-war generation of dystrophics 60-70 kg 160-170 cm tall men. And he worked for them. And on today's elephants of 100 kg and a height of 180-190 cm is no longer enough.

      On American elephants with a waist of 150 cm and a weight of 120 kg, a .45 ACP with a standard FMJ bullet is also not enough.
    3. Karenius
      Karenius 22 September 2018 23: 50
      +1
      Quote: nekromonger
      PM is a gun to shoot himself, for another it is not suitable.

      About 25 years ago, here, one tax official showed amers how to draw a straight line from points from a PM with an interval of 1 cm. at 25m.
      True, he did so, because his father was from the cop authorities and was able to teach how to shoot.
  15. beeper
    beeper 19 September 2018 19: 08
    +1
    I read this article, read the comments and carefully watched all the videos kindly provided by our esteemed colleague aka San4es to articles about the submarine pistol, including interviews by Dmitry Lebedev, the developer of this design.
    Probably, a good pistol for "practical sports shooting" will turn out, over time, from this concept, but even conceptually it does not pull a combat pistol for the Russian army.
    But this is just my individual indifferent look, just! winked
    I consider the single-cartridge output of the two-row magazine to be sub-optimal (if you look not from the side of the developers, but from the side of those who entrust their lives to this weapon, to whom it will become an everyday companion in all army scrapes!) A design decision, since rearrangement of cartridges in one row is obviously a prerequisite for violations in the supply of cartridges ("through the fault of the store" winked ) even in seemingly sterile conditions, not to mention unfavorable, during military operation!
    I understand well the design reasons when choosing a single-row cartridge feed into the chamber - this is obviously a smaller (compared to a double-row cartridge output) longitudinal feed path into the chamber and a corresponding reduction in the total length of the pistol, as well as a slightly smaller required cross-section of the bolt, this is also a possibility , on the way of rearranging the cartridges in one row, "geometrically play back" a large angle of inclination (contributing to "instinctive" accuracy in shooting offhand, which is what the famous "Luger-Parabellum" was famous for!) of the pistol grip (and the magazine placed in it) to the longitudinal axis of the barrel, not very profitable from the point of view of the reliable movement of the fed cartridges inside the magazine box.
    The barrel length (shortened by 40 mm version of the submarine) is not indicated, but, probably, it is also shortened accordingly - it is only 127-40 = 87 mm with the declared total length of the "compact" pistol 180 mm (for the TT pistol, which also works according to the automatic scheme " using recoil with a short barrel stroke ", with a total pistol length of 195 mm, barrel length 116 mm, that is, when shortening the TT to a" compact "180 mm long, barrel length 116-15 = 101 mm! hence I have" crazy thoughts "about the non-optimal choice of design solutions in the development of submarines, do I have such doubts alone winked ???) ?!
    The Makarov Pistol has a barrel length of 93 mm, with a total of 161 mm!
    I don’t even know what the "most authoritative Russian arms expert" S. Fedoseev would say about this (so memorable repeat me in the years of "perestroika" with my expert complaints about the too "short barrel" of PeeMa) ?! After all, the "compact" submarine, proposed by D. Lebedev precisely to replace the Makarov Pistol in the Russian army, has a shorter barrel - is that a clear Minus, even "in an expert way" ?!
    Well, yes, the cartridge is more powerful, this is a plus, although with such a short barrel length, a significant part of the increased powder charge of the 7N31 cartridge, without having time to burn out and tell the bullet all its declared "powerful power", will be completely useless (except for a slight additional acceleration of the bullet " by the aftereffect of powder gases ") fly out" into the pipe ", after her! But then there will be "softer recoil" + a terrifying effect on the enemy, from a loud shot and a sheaf of powder particles burning, already in the air (akin to the "large-caliber effect" of AKS-74U firing without an unscrewed compensator-afterburner smile ??!) ?!
    This is with regard to the external "primary signs", since the internal details of the pre-production samples are not yet obvious to me. wassat
    Some optimistic hints that slip through in the video "to surpass niche" by the future serial "Lebedev" the serial pistol of Gaston Glock, in my opinion, still look unfounded. But "the hopes of young men are nourished" - if you develop the correct concept of a combat army pistol and work a lot, hard to implement it, then, I am sure, you can really get an acceptable pistol for the army - this submarine can be considered only as an approximate "concept", some "beautiful design"! IMHO, so, thoughts offhand and, probably, in vain wrote ... no, I would have fired "praises" to the handsome "Lebedev", straight "into the vein" and admired the "public recognition" ?! wink
    1. tracer
      tracer 19 September 2018 19: 34
      +1
      Pistols need different. And it’s not for me to tell you about this. It is impossible to put all the requirements that are possible into one design. Regarding the filing of the cartridge. What is wrong with Ak?
      1. beeper
        beeper 19 September 2018 19: 38
        0
        hi Unfortunately I did not understand yours at all: "Regarding the filing of the cartridge. What is wrong with Ak?"
        What is Ak and what is wrong with him ???
    2. Horse, people and soul
      Horse, people and soul 19 September 2018 19: 41
      +1
      I consider the one-cartridge output of a two-row store to be suboptimal


      Glock has a two-row store with a rebuild of one glad to serve. Since 2011, he shot many thousands from him, on average 4 thousand a year (expensive, ...) there was not a single delay due to the fault of the store. Still the same shops.
      And I dumped them on the ground, anywhere, into a peat puddle, into clay ... I rinsed them under water, shook them off, charged them, then ran to shoot.

      Two-row store exit is easier only with equipment.
      1. beeper
        beeper 19 September 2018 19: 50
        -1
        This means that the smooth construction of the store at your Glock, if in the sand, in thickened brick and concrete dust and crumb soaked in a peat pool and with dried clay inside, without the possibility of rinsing with water, will not give a single delay. fellow
        The two-cartridge exit of the neck of a two-row magazine is simpler and more reliable in the supply of cartridges, in cleaning, repair and maintenance, as well as in production (especially during the war period, on broken equipment, with hands and under the supervision of unskilled personnel), and not only in equipment!
        hi
        1. Horse, people and soul
          Horse, people and soul 19 September 2018 20: 50
          -2
          The two-cartridge exit of a mouth of a two-row magazine is simpler and more reliable in the supply of cartridges


          I do not agree.

          Just in delivery, a more reliable one-cartridge output. The cartridge always moves equally on the ramp. In duhpatronnogo - this or that way. With two-cartridge plugs happen much more often and you can catch a big wedge if two cartridges are served at once.
          1. beeper
            beeper 19 September 2018 23: 00
            +1
            Quote: Horse, people and soul
            The two-cartridge exit of a mouth of a two-row magazine is simpler and more reliable in the supply of cartridges


            I do not agree.

            Just in delivery, a more reliable one-cartridge output. The cartridge always moves equally on the ramp. In duhpatronnogo - this or that way. With two-cartridge plugs happen much more often and you can catch a big wedge if two cartridges are served at once.

            hi From the single-cartridge output of a SINGLE-ROW magazine, the feed cartridge of which is located almost along the axis of the barrel chamber, it is, of course, easier to achieve reliable feed of the cartridge (although there are also some nuances, for example, in the same PM, the chamber entrance is "collapsed" is that the spherical bullet of the short Makarov cartridge always reliably fell into it during its advance by the feeding protrusion, when the sleeve, as it moves forward, begins to sit with its bottom in the bolt cup, and the ejector hook deflects the cartridge to the left and down before jumping into the corresponding groove in the bottom of the sleeve winked ! -It was easier to draw than to describe in words, but I hope that readers who are thoroughly familiar with the device of the Makarov pistol understand what this is about ?!).
            With the single-cartridge exit of the DOUBLE-ROW magazine, not everything is so simple! In case of a design error with the angles of rebuilding cartridges from a two-row to one row (the same Schmeisser magazine for the MP-38/40, repeatedly disassembled at VO by our respected colleague Andrey Kulikov aka Bunta), it is just possible to "catch a wedge" more often in difficult operating conditions, when the coefficient of friction of the cartridges between themselves and with the walls of the store increases sharply!
            On the contrary, with a well-functioning dual-cartridge delivery of such delays, in the most difficult conditions of combat operation, there is practically no such situation - for example, Kalashnikov-AK assault rifles or, closer to the topic of the article, a Stechkin-APS automatic pistol (there also has its own interesting history of successfully resolving the issue with a reliable supply of a peculiar Makarovsky cartridge from a two-row magazine, which was included in the textbook on TRIZ techniques in weapons business).
          2. tracer
            tracer 19 September 2018 23: 25
            +2
            In Glock does not wedge. Even the most very poor cartridge In theory, yes, a single-line feed is more stable, in practice these things have been worked out for a long time. An effort of 4 kg descent is too big, but if the descent is good (dry and short) it is not critical.
    3. Michael HORNET
      Michael HORNET 17 October 2018 05: 59
      0
      All right. The shortened version is not optimal for the length of the barrel
      The descent is more than controversial and at 4 kg the gun will not be popular
      Tochmash recently made a Udav pistol under 9x21
      And also zhurnashlyugi wrote "to replace PM"))))
      We must already decide which cartridge is more promising
      7N31 according to the CIP specification corresponds to the western cartridge 9x19 Major
  16. Wildcat
    Wildcat 20 September 2018 00: 22
    +3
    Quote: Svateev
    Quote: Operator
    As American practice shows, it prevents.

    Oh, this "American practice" for me! I would like to get to know her, maybe - :))

    Something 4 kg did not come across anywhere ... There was a "requirement for the manufacturer to increase the effort" to 2 kg with something.
  17. Shopping Mall
    Shopping Mall 20 September 2018 10: 11
    0
    For me, it is better USM as in ZigZauer. Self-coil a kilogram on 5 and then a short descent and force 2-2,5 kg. Instead of a fuse decoder (safe trigger).

    Accidentally squeeze 5 kilo is almost impossible, so almost all the revolvers without fuses. The absence of a fuse allows you to instantly start shooting.
    With the proper skills, you can shoot with a self-cocking quite accurately and with the first shot. Moreover, the "urgency" of the shot implies that the target will be nearby. And if you have time, then you can cock.
    1. Wildcat
      Wildcat 20 September 2018 11: 14
      +1
      ZigZauer is doing good things, and so the US army has moved to them.
      But self-cocking, decocker and a huge resource of a pistol (and its rather big price) are not for a mass army, but for specialists. Decocker is good when you need to quickly, with one hand, release the cocked trigger. Self-cocking is good when the cartridge is in the chamber, but you want more safety for the first shot and the ability to cock the trigger with your hand, for a more accurate shot (these are the police and other specialists for whom accuracy is important - for example, "hitting the buttock" is given above or for shooting on rather big distances). In the army, it seems that all "line" officers with pistols do not go on the attack, and the pistol is positioned as a weapon of self-defense (with a few exceptions). That is, an army user of a pistol (and there are many of them, hence the requirements for price and quantity) is one who rarely trains with it (not everyone can and loves it - hence the requirements for a large number of cartridges in the store) and who needs to be worn constantly (hence the requirements small weight and dimensions); and apply, most likely at a short distance and unexpectedly for targets that are possible in body armor and helmets - hence the increased (compared to the police) requirements for breaking through obstacles, the absence of non-automatic fuses and a cartridge in the chamber (remove from the fuse, send a cartridge - to stress, not everyone can do this) to take out the weapon and shoot with one (!) hand.
      The answer to all these tasks in the Glock17 army is a cheap (plastic), without unnecessary details, "half platoon" and the ability to carry with a cartridge in the chamber. The caliber is perhaps better than ours - 9 * 21.
      But the police and specialists need different options for their requirements, and in the 21st century you can not try to make one gun, good for everyone.
      1. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul 20 September 2018 18: 23
        0
        huge pistol resource


        When I competed in the Sig P226, the shutter lag broke.
        The comrade who shoots IPSC also from stainless Sig P226 SL ordered a new shutter, because on a pistol, bought a new one, it cracked after 70 thousand shots.
        1. Wildcat
          Wildcat 20 September 2018 18: 58
          +3
          About that and the speech: 70 thousand shots is very good. And for weapons, which are used for several shots per year, this, by the way, can give up a bit.
          And how much does a Viking keep, don't you remember? recourse
          1. bunta
            bunta 20 September 2018 22: 18
            0
            Warranty period brought to 50 000.
            1. Wildcat
              Wildcat 20 September 2018 22: 50
              +3
              Maybe it was done, but the last time (at the beginning of September), when they were asked at the shooting range, they received the answer "they are no longer there, 3-5 thousand survive and that's it." I don't send it to Wikipedia, but here on the forum they also wrote about it. On the other hand, where and when will an army pistol shoot so much?
              1. bunta
                bunta 21 September 2018 07: 57
                0
                You are constantly confusing the Viking and the PJ. They differ in many ways. At least that PYU passes military acceptance.
                1. Wildcat
                  Wildcat 22 September 2018 13: 31
                  +3
                  IMHO, this is one design and one manufacturer. How do they differ and how does this affect the resource? And how does the military acceptance of a PN confirm its resource of 50000 rounds?
                  IMHO, your assumption that the manufacturer sends the worst quality products to users who use it to the maximum (to the technical limit), and to users who send it to the warehouse or use it to the minimum, sends the best quality, seems debatable. Although everything is possible hi
                  1. bunta
                    bunta 22 September 2018 15: 17
                    0
                    Resource for Viking 50000 announced by Vladimir Alexandrovich at the presentation

                    https://youtu.be/ol7X-Q6baY4?t=9m24s

                    Find out what the structures of PU and Viking differ from. On account of the difference between civilian products and accepted military acceptance, trust a person who knows and worked both there and there.
                    1. Wildcat
                      Wildcat 22 September 2018 17: 24
                      +3
                      Resource for Viking 50000 declared
                      - I immediately remembered the joke "well, you declare" wink
                      Find out what the design of the ПY and Viking is for yourself.
                      - thanks for the information, otherwise it's hard to guess about the material of the frame ... but this is a "material", not a "design", however, okay. The difference between the plastic Glock and the Viking in the resource I suggest you "find out for yourself".
                      At the expense of the difference between civilian products and accepted military acceptance
                      - maybe they’re really sent to sports worse, but better to the army fellow . And now, to the sounds of fanfare, a review of the joint work of military acceptance and industry (I did not have to go far, from the same site, I will leave the beginning and the end)
                      Pistol Yarygin PYa
                      The miracle of domestic weapons of thought. .... But ... I doubt that in Soviet times it would have been adopted. The gun is frankly "raw." Angular, with protruding parts, as if cut with an ax. Workmanship is appropriate.
                      .....
                      In general, such things with this gun. A complete analogy with domestic and foreign cars. Similar, but something in ours is not right ...

                      https://topwar.ru/30681-otechestvennoe-oruzhie-lichnoe-mnenie-zapiski-speca.html
                      hi
                      1. bunta
                        bunta 22 September 2018 17: 42
                        0
                        Well, I don't need to quote Cardin. This "special" shoved the breech block from the saiga into the RPK and after its breakdown made an ingenious conclusion about the non-interchangeability of AK parts. An example, by the way, is from the same area of ​​comparisons between PL and Viking. In the opinion of not an individual writer - a "specialist", although he recognizes his respect for the profession he has chosen, and in the opinion of the assessments of the two commanders of the RG detachment personally expressed to me - they have no complaints about the PY. There are some comments - the STP of cartridges issued for training is stable 5 cm below the combat ones. But this does not apply to the pistol. And the pistol needs automatic fire.
      2. Horse, people and soul
        Horse, people and soul 20 September 2018 18: 40
        0
        The answer to all these tasks in the Glock17 army is a cheap (plastic), without unnecessary details, "half platoon" and the ability to carry with a cartridge in the chamber.


        Glock has pistols in 7 sizes and 7 calibers for every taste and color.

        https://eu.glock.com/en/products/pistols


        Caliber, perhaps better than ours - 9 * 21.


        The Glock 31 model under the .357 Sig or under the 10 mm auto Glock 20, the new Glock 40 will deliver the bullet to the target with the same or even greater energy than the Russian 9x21.

        https://www.sellier-bellot.cz/en/products/pistol-and-revolver-ammunition/pistol-and-revolver-cartridges/detail/278/


        https://www.sellier-bellot.cz/en/products/pistol-and-revolver-ammunition/pistol-and-revolver-cartridges/detail/485/
  18. Wildcat
    Wildcat 20 September 2018 18: 44
    +3
    Quote: Horse, people and soul
    huge pistol resource


    When I competed in the Sig P226, the shutter lag broke.
    The comrade who shoots IPSC also from stainless Sig P226 SL ordered a new shutter, because on a pistol, bought a new one, it cracked after 70 thousand shots.

    That’s what it is, 70 thousand - not bad, especially compared to the Viking, not by night he will be remembered with his resource ....
  19. Wildcat
    Wildcat 20 September 2018 18: 54
    +1
    Quote: Horse, people and soul
    The answer to all these tasks in the Glock17 army is a cheap (plastic), without unnecessary details, "half platoon" and the ability to carry with a cartridge in the chamber.


    Glock has pistols in 7 sizes and 7 calibers for every taste and color.

    Caliber, perhaps better than ours - 9 * 21.


    The Glock 31 model under the .357 Sig or under the 10 mm auto Glock 20, the new Glock 40 will deliver the bullet to the target with the same or even greater energy than the Russian 9x21.

    https://www.sellier-bellot.cz/en/products/pistol-and-revolver-ammunition/pistol-and-revolver-cartridges/detail/278/


    https://www.sellier-bellot.cz/en/products/pistol-and-revolver-ammunition/pistol-and-revolver-cartridges/detail/485/

    Savages, they don’t know that one model can be made, and for many, many years it will be sold to the state. So what, that people have different hands, someone .45 is normal, and a female soldier and 9 * 18 can be uncomfortable. And what a strange idea - to make different models in one caliber? It is as if one and the same gun cannot be dragged both openly and hiddenly! wassat
    Seriously, even a set of pads on the handle is already a huge step in the right direction. The issue of calibers for the military is not so much in bullet energy (although this is also important), but in armor penetration.
  20. Wildcat
    Wildcat 20 September 2018 23: 08
    +3
    Quote: Wildcat
    Of course, the finger is not where you need it! smile
    The tip is, "Don't do that anymore, Texas Rangers!"
    http://www.icollector.com/Factory-Engraved-Colt-1911-45-cal-SN-C176166-National-Match-semi-automatic-pistol-with-factor-lett_i12691414

    By the way, there were still photos where the automatic fuse was blocked by a cord tied around the handle, but I can not find them recourse
  21. Wildcat
    Wildcat 22 September 2018 19: 13
    +3
    bunta,
    Automatic fire is an interesting thing, then a store of increased capacity and either a holster-butt or a butt like a wire at Stechkin and a seat for a silencer! good With a collimator in general - good good It turns out something like this:
    https://www.yrsinc.com/media/catalog/product/cache/12/image/1800x/040ec09b1e35df139433887a97daa66f/0/0/0005112_roni-recon-rail-system-for-glock-171819222332-by-caa.jpeg
    with me, 3 absolutely unprepared shooters (women), who had previously hit single at a distance of 25 "every other time", confidently hit in more than 90% of cases.
    My experience of shooting automatic fire from a pistol at 25 m was unsuccessful: most of the bullets went past the target, although the first fell well (the butt was not due to its loss, two-handed grip). This is for specialists, I guess.
    1. Wildcat
      Wildcat 25 September 2018 23: 53
      +2
      By the way, I found an article on this site where the new Zigzauer, which I wrote about above, with a stock and a collimator. An interesting thing, though the "sideways folding" butt on the pistol looks ... unusual. The article and video contains:
      https://topwar.ru/137524-sig-sauer-p320-poluchit-priklad.html
    2. Michael HORNET
      Michael HORNET 17 October 2018 06: 06
      0
      So the hedgehog understands that if you turn the gun into a carbine equipped with a collimator sight (for example, put the gun in a carbine kit like Fab or Roni), then the effectiveness of shooting inexperienced users from it will increase at least twice, or even three times. 1% of users (or less) can shoot from a pistol. From the carabiner, it is able to pass tolerably 75%
      Only in this case the convenience of carrying a pistol will be lost
      1. Wildcat
        Wildcat 26 October 2018 13: 06
        +2
        Of course, everyone knows everything! And how to wear, and how to shoot, and how and where.
  22. akm8226
    akm8226 3 November 2018 15: 59
    0
    It would be necessary to feel ... then we can definitely say. But for all the videos that I saw, I liked the shortened version.
  23. Dr. Bermental
    Dr. Bermental 7 November 2018 13: 31
    0
    it was better to write in English for the Americans - they will soon have them in stores ... and the Russian peasant is te ...
  24. Brigadier
    Brigadier 27 November 2018 14: 38
    0
    "PM" was good in its time, but that time is long gone. Everything is relative.
    Caliber, ergonomics, magazine capacity, range and accuracy of fire at "PM" today is so-so ... below average ...
    To yearn for "PM" today is like yearning for the T-34 among the country's modern tank fleet ...
    The tank is good ... was ... Now it will be split by any 30-mm gun, to say nothing of 125 mm ...
    It is exactly the same with "PM" ... It was a good pistol for that - "its time", but not today!
    All is well in due time, but now it's PL time.
    Grandpa "PM" is retiring on a well-deserved pension. His grandson - "PL" takes over the watch.
    Passing the baton.