Landing without ships. Navy is not able to conduct large-scale amphibious operations

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The last big war in which the Navy participated was the Second World War. Neither the Germans nor the Japanese have engaged any significant naval forces against the Soviet Navy. This created the conditions under which the weak and small Navy was able to conduct dozens of amphibious operations, some of which had a decisive influence on the course of the war as a whole, and we are now obliged to the Kuril operation because the shelf of the Sea of ​​Okhotsk went to Russia, and along with Primorye, "fenced off" from the ocean and any opponent in it defensive chain of islands.

Landing without ships. Navy is not able to conduct large-scale amphibious operations




The Great Patriotic War and the war with Japan gave and the fleet, and the country is a very important lesson. It consists of the following: landing from the sea, landed at the right time in the right place, has an impact on the enemy that is disproportionately large in comparison with its size.

Do not land a brigade of marines in the lip of the Western face in early 1941, and it is not known how the German attack on Murmansk would end. Murmansk would have fallen, and the USSR would not have received, for example, half of aviation gas, every tenth tank, a quarter of all gunpowder, almost all aluminum, from which during the most difficult period of the war aircraft engines and diesels for the T-34 were made, and much more ...

And if it were not for the Kerch-Feodosia landing operation, and it is not known from what position the Germans in 1942 would then begin to attack the Caucasus, and where this attack ended up in the end, it is unknown in which part of the front 1942 would appear at the beginning of 11. I am the army of Manstein, and where it would have become the very “straw that broke the back”. But it would be absolutely accurate.

Landings of sea and river landings became the basis of the activities of the Navy, despite its absolute unavailability for this type of military operations. The marines had to be recruited from the seafarers, there were no special amphibious ships, there was no amphibious technology, the troops had no special amphibious training or experience, but even in these conditions, the Soviet amphibians caused enormous harm to the Wehrmacht, having rendered strategic progress during the war ) influence and greatly facilitating the Red Army waging war on land.

Material and technical means to ensure amphibious operations must be prepared in advance. - This is the second important lesson from the experience of the past. Otherwise, the victory begins to cost too many human lives - those who drowned on the way to the shore due to inability to swim or because of the wrong choice of the landing site, who died from frostbite, walking along the neck in icy water, before going on trapped shore, those who were forced to attack the enemy without artillery support from the sea, because the enemy aviation did not allow large surface ships to operate, and small ships with artillery were not in the right quantity.

It makes sense to consider how today the Navy is ready to help the ground forces, if this is again required.

Currently, the Russian Federation has a well-trained and motivated marines. With all the skepticism that elite troops can recruit, staffed by conscripts, the MPs are very capable troops, possessing, among other things, high morale, which any non-overwhelming adversary will cope with extremely difficult, if possible at all. Marines are quite consistent with the reputation that their predecessors of the war times earned by blood. There are various disadvantages for the Marine Corps, but who has none?

However, all this relates to the situation when the marines are already on the ground. However, she is called “sea” because first she needs to land on the ground from the sea. And here questions begin.

To understand the current situation, it is necessary to turn to the practice of using amphibious assault forces in modern warfare.

During World War II, the main method of the naval landing operation was the landing of airborne detachments from small ships and boats. If the Americans had special landing boats, then, for example, the USSR basically had mobilized ships, but the principle was the same - the landing units on small ships and boats approach the shore and land the first echelon on the coastal line accessible to infantry. we will call it for brevity the non-military word “beach”. In the future, the landing of the second echelon took place already in different ways. The USSR somewhere had to unload the transport, as a rule, this required the seizure of moorings. To which large ships could approach. The United States had several hundred tank landing ships LST (Landing ship, tank) from which they could land mechanized troops, both directly from the ship to the shore and from the ship to the shore via a pontoon bridge discharged from the ship itself.

If the landing ports were far from the landing zone, then the transfer of paratroopers from large transports (in the Navy of the USSR - from warships) to small landing craft directly into the sea was practiced. The Americans, in addition, used special tracked amphibious transporters LVT (Landing vehicle, tracked), their armored and armed versions, wheeled amphibious trucks, infantry assault ships LSI (Landing ship, infantry). The USSR occasionally practiced a combination of parachute and amphibious assault forces. Also, the USSR successfully practiced landings to the port, in contrast to the Anglo-Americans, who considered landings to the port to be unjustified.

After WWII, paratroop formations of developed countries survived the crisis caused by the emergence of nuclear weapons. In the USSR, the Marine Corps was disbanded, in the US Truman did not have quite a bit of the same thing, but there the Marines were saved by the War in Korea. To its top, the Marine Corps was in a terrible state, caused by underfunding and general disregard for its existence, but after the war, the issue of the liquidation of the marines had never risen.

With 50-x - 60-s in the practice of amphibious assault revolution occurs. Amphibious helicopters and amphibious assault carriers emerge, and a landing technique such as “vertical coverage” is born, when an airborne assault landing, usually helicopter landing, is sent to the rear of the forces defending the coast, and numerous naval forces are landing on the beach. In the United States, the LVTP-50 transporter, a very ugly machine, began to arrive in the US from the middle of the 5-x, which, however, gave the marines the opportunity to go ashore under the protection of armor, and immediately pass through the sweep-through coastal zone. In different countries, floating tanks appear.

The USSR participated in this revolution. The marines were recreated. For the landing of numerous amphibious units, many small, medium and large amphibious ships were built. To give the marines high mobility and the ability to act in shallow water, small air-cushion assault ships began to arrive in the Navy from 1970. The situation was worse with the air component - in the USSR there were no helicopter carriers, and the airborne forces had to land in the rear of the enemy from An-26 airplanes by parachute method. Parachute training was and remains a kind of "calling card" of the Soviet and Russian parts of the marines.

This method of landing has a number of drawbacks compared to helicopter landing landing. The plane flies higher, and for this reason it is much more vulnerable to the fire of enemy air defense systems. Without helicopters, the evacuation of the wounded is extremely difficult. Supplies can only be delivered by parachute. And in the event of the defeat and evacuation of the landing force, the airborne detachment is most likely doomed to ruin - it is almost impossible to take it out of the enemy's rear without helicopters.

However, it was a working way.

But the second revolution of the USSR missed.

From 1965, the US Navy began to be drawn into the Vietnam War. We have it known for anything, but not the marines, but in reality during the war they planted as many as sixty-nine. Of course, the Americans did not find fame - the enemy was too weak to be beaten in the chest. However, Americans would not be Americans if they had not used the accumulated statistics sensibly.

By that time, the LST of the war was still in service with the US Navy, and the major vehicles from which soldiers had to be transplanted to landing craft were tank landing ships of the new generation of the Newport class, with an extravagant collapsible bridge instead of a forward gate. new-fashioned ships docks LSD (Landing ship, dock). The top of the amphibious capabilities were the amphibious assault carriers, both the converted Essexes of the time of WWII and the specially built Iwo Jima ships.

The landing craft also differed in a smaller variety - here were mainly landing boats, technically similar to those used in World War II, LVTP-5 transporters and helicopters.


BTP LVTP-5

An analysis of the landings of the American marines performed during the war showed an unpleasant thing: even though all the landing forces were successful, the tactics and techniques used would not allow such operations against a full-fledged enemy.

By that time, the infantry of the developed countries already had recoilless guns, rocket launchers, and small quantities of anti-tank systems, reliable radio communications and the ability to direct artillery fire, MRLS fire, and a lot of all such that the landing craft near the coast simply could not survive, Yes, and dismounted infantry would have been very bad. The firepower of potential adversaries would not allow marines to run along the beach in a landing style on Iwo Jima and in general could have made amphibious operations impossible, and for tank landing ships and subunits that they delivered, they are also fraught with huge losses, including ships.

This challenge had to be answered, and such an answer was given.

From the first half of the seventies in the US Navy and the marines begins the transition to a new way of landing. We are talking about over-the-horizon landing in its modern sense. Now the forward echelon of the naval assault forces was to descend on the water at a safe distance from the coast, where the enemy can neither see the landing ship visually nor shoot at it with the weapons available to the ground forces. The landing force had to go straight into the water in their combat vehicles, be able to walk towards them, even with significant agitation, be able to maneuver along the water's edge, and go ashore even along “weak” ground. The composition of the troop squad was supposed to be uniform — identical combat vehicles, with the same speed and range on the water. The landing of second echelons with tanks was to be a task for tank landing ships, but they had to come ashore when the airborne and navy amphibious detachments, with the support of aviation from ships, had already cleared the shore to a sufficient depth.

For this, special equipment was needed, and in 1971, the world's first UDC, the universal landing ship Tarawa, was laid. The ship had a huge landing deck for armored vehicles, which could get out of it into the water through the docking chamber in the stern. In turn, amphibious boats were located in the docking chamber, which were now intended for the landing of rear units with their equipment. The huge ship carried helicopters, in a quantity sufficient for “vertical coverage,” later Cobra drums were added to them, and after some time, the Harrier ATV in their American version.

Cumbersome and cumbersome LVTP-5 were not suitable for such tasks and in 1972, the military rolled out the first LVTP-7 - a car that was to become epoch-making in terms of influence on the tactics of naval landings.


Early version LVTP-7

The new conveyor with aluminum armor for security surpassed any of the Soviet BTR, and in many ways the BMP-1. The 12,7 caliber machine gun of millimeters was weaker than that of Soviet armored vehicles, but at a distance of visual detection could effectively hit them. The armored personnel carrier could go on water up to twenty nautical miles at speeds up to 13 kilometers per hour, and carried up to three detachments of soldiers. The car could move on a wave to three points, and kept buoyancy and stability even at five.

A new way of "run-in" on the teachings and he immediately showed that he justifies himself. The length of the coastline accessible to the tracked all-terrain vehicle is much greater than the available coast for the approach of a tank landing ship, which means that the enemy is more difficult to build a defense. In addition, the presence of seaworthy machines allowed for maneuvers on the water, aimed at misleading the enemy. The appearance of shock aviation on board the UDC helped to level the lack of assault firepower. Old ships were adapted to the new method. Armored personnel carriers could get on the water from the Newports through the aft lazport and from the ships of the docks.

The only unresolved issue was the line of dismounting. Fought two points of view. According to the first, the marines crowded “like sardines in a bank” in large and visible armored vehicles were an excellent target for heavy weapons, therefore, immediately after the passage of the coastline, the landing forces had to dismount and attack on foot, with the support of onboard weapons of the armored vehicles. According to the second point of view, heavy machine guns, the massive spread of automatic weapons in infantry, automatic grenade launchers and mortars would have destroyed dismounted marines faster than if they were inside armored vehicles.

By the mid-eighties, according to the results of the exercises, the Americans came to the conclusion that supporters of the second point of view are right, and the passage of the beach on the caterpillars at the fastest pace possible is better than deploying to rifle chains immediately after landing. Although it is not a dogma, and commanders can, if necessary, act according to the situation.

In 80, the United States improved tactics even more. Armored vehicles and soldiers received night-vision equipment and the ability to land at night. LCAC (Landing craft air cushion) boats appeared. Having a through deck, through which the cars could move from one boat to the dock chamber to another, they allowed the first wave of the landing to take with them tanks, up to four units, or heavy engineering vehicles for fencing. This made it possible to resolve the issue with the landing of tanks after the cancellation of "Newports". New landing ships appeared - landing helicopter-carrying LPD (Landing platform dock) docking ships carrying less landing than UDC and up to six helicopters, and new “Uosp” class UDC, more efficient than “Taravy” and able to perform without discounts as a command and logistics center of the landing operation, which deployed a rear battalion, a supply of weapons and logistics equipment and supplies for four days of hostilities, an operating room for six places, a powerful command center, an air group of any composition. The amphibious ships of the US Navy gave the marines the necessary flexibility - now it could be landed from the same ship as a mechanized battalion group, with tanks, cannons, and support for attack helicopters and airplanes, and as an airborne formation of up to the regiment , fighting after disembarking on foot, and simply carry out military transport from port to port.

To consider those theories and concepts that the United States spawned after the end of the Cold War does not make sense - they are untenable against a strong adversary and now the United States abandons them, returning to itself the previously lost skills of over-horizon landing with vertical coverage.

In the USSR, everything remained as in 60's. New landing ships appeared, which conceptually repeated the old ones and demanded the same approach to the coast for landing troops. The armored vehicles were the same BTR, only not -60, but -70. The 11780 project - the Soviet UDC, cynically nicknamed by its contemporaries "Ivan Tarava", did not go beyond the scope of modeling - it simply turned out to be no place to build, the plant in Nikolaev was loaded with aircraft carriers. And he was not very successful.


UDC of the 11780 project

And this is in conditions when the British on the Falkland showed the viciousness of the concept of a tank landing ship in modern war. Of the five ships of this type used in the operation, the Royal Navy lost two, and this is under conditions when there was no Argentine soldier on the coast at all. Hardly anyone of this type of ships, including the Soviet BDK, could have shown better, especially against a stronger enemy than the Argentines were. But the USSR had no alternative. And then he himself was gone.

The collapse of the fleet, following the collapse of a huge country, affected the landing ships. Their number decreased, the “Jarana” hovercraft were massively decommissioned, and not replaced by anything, KFOR left - medium landing ships, ineffective and ugly Rhinos did not become - the BND project 1174, the result of an absurd attempt to cross a tank landing ship with a ship docking and DCCD . And of course, there was no maritime armored vehicles for the marines. Well, and then the war began in the Caucasus, and everyone was sharply not up to landings in general ...

Let us briefly list what is necessary for a successful landing of troops from the sea in a modern war.

1. The landing force must go on water on armored vehicles, at a safe distance from ships for ships.

2. By the time the visual range of the land reaches the range, the landing party should be built into battle order - even on the water.

3. It must be possible to land part of the landing forces from the air in order to intercept communications of the enemy defending the coast and isolate it from reserves; You must be able to land from the air of a third of the forces allocated to participate in the first wave of the landing.

4. The preferred means of disembarking paratroopers from the air is a helicopter.

5. Also preferred means of fire support of the landing force at the stage of approaching the water's edge, coming ashore and attacking the first echelon of enemy troops defending the coast are combat aircraft and helicopters.

6. The first wave of the assault force should have tanks, demining and lashing vehicles.

7. A quick landing of second echelons with heavy weapons and rear units should be ensured immediately, as soon as the first wave of the assault forces has a success.

8. Uninterrupted delivery of supplies is necessary even in the face of opposition from the enemy.

Of course, all of this refers to some kind of “average” operation, in fact each operation must be planned on the basis of the real situation, but without the possibilities listed above, landing operations will be extremely difficult, and even if successful, will be accompanied by heavy losses.

Let us now consider what resources the Navy can allocate for amphibious operations, and how they meet the requirements listed above.

Currently, the Navy has the following ships classified as amphibious: fifteen ships of the 775 project of Polish construction of different series, four old Tapira of the 1171 project, and one new BDK Ivan Gren of the 11711 project.

Of this number, five ships are part of the Northern Fleet, four are part of the Pacific, four more are from the Baltic and seven are from the Black Sea.

Also at the disposal of the Black Sea Fleet remains the Ukrainian BDK Konstantin Olshansky, which in a hypothetical emergency situation brings the total number of BDK to twenty-one. A sistership of “Ivan Gren” - “Peter Morgunov” is under construction.

Много это или мало?

There are calculations thathow many Soviet BDK is needed to transfer a certain number of troops.

Thus, four BDK project 775 can land one battalion of marines, without reinforcement, without additional attached units and rear. Instead, you can use a couple of ships of the project 1171.

From this follow the ultimate capabilities of the fleets: the Northern can land one battalion, reinforced by a subunit of about a company, by anyone. His troops can be supported by a pair of helicopters from the "Ivan Gren". One battalion can land the Pacific and Baltic fleets. And up to two - the Black Sea. Of course, boats are not counted, but the fact is that they have a very small carrying capacity and an even shorter range. In addition, there are also a few of them - for example, all Baltic Fleet boats can land less than one battalion if we are talking about disembarking with equipment and weapons. If you land purely foot fighters, then another battalion. Black Sea Fleet boats are not enough even for a full company with equipment, as well as boats of the Northern Fleet. There will be enough boats for the TOA, but no more. And a little more company can land boats of the Caspian flotilla.

Thus, it is obvious that none of the fleets except the Black Sea can use their marines on a scale larger than the reinforced battalion, in principle. The Black Sea Fleet can land two, and even with some amplification.

But maybe some of the forces will be landed in a parachute way? Without discussing the likelihood of a successful parachute assault against an adversary with full-fledged air defense, we will nevertheless count aircraft that the Navy can use for such an operation.

The Navy has the following aircraft, capable of parachuting marines: two An-12BK, twenty-four An-26 and six An-72. In total, all these aircraft make it possible to throw out about one thousand one hundred soldiers. But, of course, without military equipment and heavy weapons (delivery of 82-mm mortars, automatic grenade launchers, NSV machine guns with 12,7 mm caliber, portable anti-tank systems, MANPADS is possible by parachute method). It is not difficult to see that, firstly, between how many troops of any fleet can land from the sea and how much naval aviation can land from the air, there is a big imbalance, it is also obvious that still none of the fleets can enter in the battle all of their marines at the same time, and even half can not, too.

If we assume a hypothetical offensive "expeditionary" operation of the Marine Corps, then the amphibious capabilities of the Navy make it possible to land about one brigade tactical group of just over four battalions.

Now let us return to the requirements that the landing forces must meet in order to be able to discourage the more or less serious enemy, at least on a small scale, corresponding to the presence of ships.

It is easy to see that the capabilities of the Navy and Marines do not correspond to any item. There are no naval armored vehicles, there is no possibility to use helicopters outside the combat radius of ground aviation, it is likewise not possible to deliver tanks to the shore except by bringing the ship close to it, which with high probability means a repetition of the British “success” on the Falklands. Means of fast delivery to the unequipped coast of the second echelon, reserves, means of logistics in a sufficient number of the Navy does not possess.

In this way, the capabilities of the full naval amphibious operations of the Navy does not possess. This is an important point, if only because in some cases, the task of landing an amphibious assault force to the fleet will be set. And, as was the case during the Great Patriotic War, the fleet will have to carry out its obviously worthless means, paying for the performance of the combat mission with excessive and absolutely unnecessary losses in the composition of the marines and at the risk of suffering defeat.

Today, the Navy is able to conduct a successful landing of a very small number of tactical assault forces only in conditions of complete, absolute absence of opposition from the enemy in the landing zone.

Fans of the mantra about the fact that we are a peaceful people and do not need overseas landings should remember dozens of landing operations during the quite defensive WWII, one of which, for example, exceeded the operation “Torch” - landing of the allies in North Africa, and in terms of the number of the first wave of the assault, albeit slightly, but surpassed that on Iwo Jima.

What are the components necessary for conducting amphibious operations that are not at the disposal of the Russian Navy?

First, there are not enough ships. If we assume that the number of marines in each of the fleets is justified from the operational point of view, it is necessary to have enough ships so that each of the fleets could land its own marines in full.

The idea of ​​using mobilized civilian ships as amphibious in our time is no longer working. Modern amphibious units require too much heavy military equipment; it is impossible to ensure its combat use from aboard a merchant ship; in the case of mobilized ships, we can talk only about military transport.

Secondly, there is a shortage of air components - helicopters are needed in sufficient for the landing of that very one third of the forces from the air, and combat helicopters capable of supporting the landing. As a last resort, it is necessary to have at least as many helicopters as necessary to evacuate the wounded, and deliver ammunition and weapons to parachutists, and also a minimum of attack helicopters.

Thirdly, in order to deliver helicopters to the landing site, we need ships capable of carrying them.

Fourth, you need to have floating rear vessels capable of organizing cargo delivery to an unequipped coast.

Fifthly, it is necessary to have naval combat vehicles of the marines (BMMP), or at least naval armored personnel carriers, specially built for movement in conditions of excitement.

Sixth, it’s necessary not to overstrain the budget.

It is fair to say that the Navy and the military-industrial complex tried to do something.

Everyone remembers the epic with the "Mistrals", however, from the mass of observers, incompetent in matters of carrying out amphibious operations, slipped the meaning of the purchase. Moreover, the stupid debate on this topic continues to this day.

Meanwhile, the “Mistral” is the possibility of over-horizon landing of at least one fully equipped battalion of marines, with a minimum landing of a company from its composition in the form of an airborne assault, with the release of a separate helicopter unit for fire support, with an operating and command post on board. These ships closed the very lacuna in the Russian amphibious capabilities described above. To the Mistrals, only BMMPs were needed in order to land the landing with one wave, and not with small detachments on the landing craft. And then domestic BDK would turn into what they may well be - carriers of the first-tier BHMP and second-tier divisions. For this “Mistrali” ships were supposed to be bought, and anyone who disputes the decision made then, or, as they say, “not in the subject line”, or tries to promote deliberately false attitudes.

Can the domestic industry create on the fly, without experience, a decent ship of this class? It is doubtful. On the example of the “Avalanche” UDC project that has become public, this is seen just fine.



It is difficult to find such a crazy project. For some reason, this ship has a gate in its nose, although it’s quite obvious that it doesn’t go to the shallow shore because of heavy precipitation (the authors apparently want the gate to be knocked out in a slamming wave), it has an extremely irrational form of the flight deck, rectangular plan could get another starting position for the helicopter - and their number in the landing operation is critical. The real horror is that the landing chamber floor is level with the floor of the docking chamber - this means either flooding the landing deck along with the dock chamber each time it is used, or the presence of a giant insulating pressure vessel between the dock chamber and the deck, which eliminates the landing of the landing on the water otherwise than docking boats. Or use the gate in the nose, which for such a ship gives madness. There are other, less significant disadvantages.


The longitudinal section shows the position of the dock chamber and the landing deck.

Obviously, the project stillborn.

More interesting are the perspectives of another project, the PWCD Priboy. Unfortunately, apart from the silhouette, and the design characteristics there is no information about this ship, but it is hard to imagine that it is worse than the Avalanche.


The project "Surf" - everything we know

One way or another, the industry has not shown itself ready to independently design analogs of the French Mistral, even if it is assumed that under the conditions of sanctions thereto it is possible to produce all the necessary components. Perhaps something will come from "Surf", but for now you can only hope for it.

A great success is the creation of the Ka-52K Katran combat helicopter, the carrier of which was planned to be made the Mistral. This machine has enormous potential, and can easily become the main attack helicopter in the naval aviation of the Russian Federation, one of the "pillars" of amphibious assault forces of the future. Unfortunately, this is the only relatively completed project in our fleet that can be useful in building effective landing forces.

And, finally, it is impossible not to mention the draft marines marines - BMMP.



Project Omsktransmash considered in the article by Kirill Ryabovthose interested should study it, and this is exactly what the marines should ideally be armed with. Unfortunately, the project “in metal” is very far away, and in the light of new economic realities, it’s not at all a fact that they will be given a turn. Nevertheless, there are chances to realize the project.

At present, Russia economically, as they say, will not “pull” the creation of a modern amphibious fleet. At the same time, the requirements for amphibious forces applied near its territory, or, as during the Second World War, on it, are very different from those that will be presented for expeditionary actions - and the situation may require a war near the house, and somewhere far away From him. At the same time, it is also impossible to leave the situation "as is" - the BDK uses the resource in the Syrian Express very intensively, and the repair of ships built in Poland is currently difficult. Soon these ships will have to be changed, and for this you need to understand what. All this is superimposed on the apparent lack of command of the navy and marines of the concept of landing operations of the future.

This can be seen even in the teachings where armored vehicles leave from ships to shore, where bulldozers and other roads are laid for it, and the airborne troops look like three or four fighters landed right on the edge of the water from an antisubmarine helicopter (which looks very strange in fact). As a result, today Russia is inferior in its amphibious capabilities even to small countries, for example, in its amphibious ships, the Russian Pacific Fleet is inferior even to Singapore, and it is not worth mentioning about larger countries.

The continuation of the current trends will lead to the complete loss of landing opportunities - this moment is not far off. And to reverse the trends "in the forehead" by building all the necessary will not give the economy. Such is the dilemma.

So is there a way out? Surprisingly, there is. However, it will require non-standard approaches on the one hand and competent concepts on the other. Innovations, such as we have not yet resorted to, and thoughtful reflection of traditions. A thorough analysis of modernity and deep understanding stories. It will require a level of planning actions and an understanding of the issues somewhat higher than in Russia, as is customary to demonstrate. But this is not impossible, and about this - in the following material.
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  1. +9
    23 November 2018 07: 27
    The article is good, though one BUT .. No answer is given, what even hypothetical landings will we land? To what country ? Which continent? If we consider the current situation, then the main problem is the impossibility to CONSIDERALLY accumulate the necessary number of forces and means for some small, small impressive operation .. All will be revealed at the stage of preparation and, accordingly, the enemy will take measures .. The current state of intelligence means will not allow taking the necessary actions for a successful landing .. And in the case of our country in general, the picture of MASS landings is unrealistic. There are no countries and places left on the planet where we could carry out amphibious assault, these are either the "Partners" countries or their comrades .. The experience of the Second World War is not appropriate here, to put it mildly, the breakthrough of military technologies will reduce similar attempts to naught .. MP is a force support of the fleet and no more, so there are no special amphibious means for it is pointless .. The Ministry of Defense seems to have a clear understanding of this in this matter .. Today, operations in the MTR style or large-scale projects like Syria are possible, places for amphibious assault with their specific and expensive equipment is not there ..
    1. Ber
      -1
      23 November 2018 08: 16
      If we consider the current situation, the main problem is the impossibility of secretly accumulating the required number of forces and means for some kind of small and impressive operation .. Everything will be opened at the preparation stage and, accordingly, the enemy will take measures ..


      I dare not agree, everything was ready for this in the USSR, it was not possible to identify in those days, but Gorbachev signed a document making the Mediterranean a zone of peace (hell is a peacemaker)
      This was the starting point for the complete decline of the MP Black Sea Fleet.
      1. +8
        23 November 2018 08: 49
        Ekranoplan dead theme.
        1. The comment was deleted.
          1. +3
            23 November 2018 16: 01
            Yes, I said that this is a dead topic, and, unlike you, I can justify it. How would you not here and did not distort the Russian language (see from a great mind).
            1. +2
              23 November 2018 19: 02
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              Yes, I said that this is a dead topic, and, unlike you, I can justify it. How would you not here and did not distort the Russian language (see from a great mind).

              =========
              Well, justify it from the "point of view of a" big mind "..... And then somehow with my" meager mind "I just can't understand why this" topic "is DEAD?????
        2. 0
          24 November 2018 08: 35
          Ekranoplan dead theme.


          From the beginning, thanks for the article.

          Now, on ekranoplanes, Alexander think why the states did not spare either money or influence on Yeltsin, so as to destroy all the achievements on ekranoplanes?

          The answer is here, and you yourself voiced it.

          To consider those theories and concepts that the United States spawned after the end of the Cold War does not make sense - they are untenable against a strong adversary and now the United States abandons them, returning to itself the previously lost skills of over-horizon landing with vertical coverage.
          In the USSR, everything remained as in the 60s


          Without ekranoplanes for the Russian Navy this ...
          they are bankrupt against a strong adversary and now the US is abandoning them,


          Think about who prevents the creation of a fleet of ekranoplanes equal to half of the Il-76 fleet, using Stealth technology.
          Not only does the ekranoplanes go at a height that is difficult to control for radars, but also stealth that can grow from the Su-57.

          Thus, specialized air defense ships, cruisers of the Peter the Great type, and cruisers armed with besides calibers, medium-range missiles are prohibited by agreement to be based on land of the Russian Federation. Such an escort is able to provide full cover to ekranoplanes of equal size (IL-76), which are capable of completely discreetly landing a whole division, without losses, under the nose of an equal in strength enemy of the United States, providing a huge bridgehead for further actions of the Airborne Forces, and the Navy, etc.

          This information is for a very long reflection, you Alexander.
          I have the same thing to think about because the idea came intuitively in the morning, I decided to design it in the form of text.
          1. 0
            24 November 2018 13: 29
            The ekranoplan I don’t remember whose apt expression is a machine that perfectly combines the flaws of an airplane and a ship. And indeed it is. Modern radar, capable of detecting targets on the background of the underlying surface, copes well with the detection of such targets, and with the guidance of missiles at them. In addition, WIG slower than an airplane, and carries at times less cargo than the ship.
            The aircraft has another colossal advantage - it is able to fly above the ground, and over a terrain with difficult terrain. It is simply more versatile, and at times, and its vulnerability to air defense and aviation is almost the same.

            Well, if you are doing fiction, you need to build amphibious airborne transport aircraft capable of releasing the landing force into the water, if necessary.
            They are at least in peacetime as transport workers can be used.

            Regarding the division - one IL-76 lifts two BMD-4 on platforms. Think about how many aircraft need to be built, and which ones to land a MP division with heavy equipment?
            1. +1
              24 November 2018 15: 46
              The plane has another huge advantage - it is able to fly above the ground,


              Ekranoplanes easily rise to or 2 000 meters or 5 000 meters, here's what Bartini or Alekseevsky request I do not remember.

              Alexander try to spend a couple of weeks, watch movies in which you will understand that they’re not negotiating, that they are exaggerating, then read the techies, the Bartini system and the Alekseev system.

              For fiction, read Jules Verne. 1000 Leagues Under the Sea and the mysterious island. smile

              Regarding the division - one IL-76 lifts two BMD-4 on platforms. Think about how many aircraft need to be built, and which ones to land a MP division with heavy equipment?


              On this issue, you need to see the Airborne Forces, how many divisions of the Airborne Forces in Russia, what exercises were conducted in the USSR, which in Russia, everything is there. fellow

              If you want to learn how to break the stereotypes from the reader, start with yourself, overcome your own stereotypes, if only to look at your technical convictions from the outside.
              19th-century captain Nemo Jules Verne, Konstantin Eduardovich Tsiolkovsky confirmation of this.
            2. +1
              24 November 2018 16: 01
              In addition, the ekranoplan is slower than an airplane, and carries many times less cargo than a ship.


              The ekranoplan uses an on-screen cushion, due to which the carrying capacity of the ekranoplan is almost 1,5 times higher than that of an airplane, which is what is needed for a tank landing load.
              The plane cannot use a screen cushion, but on the contrary, the screen cushion is the cause of the disasters of many airliners.

              Something like that ......
              1. 0
                26 November 2018 00: 47
                Up to 2000 meters, only some models fall short at the cost of increased fuel consumption. Eagle like he could. But - these chips are simply not needed for anything, that's what's the catch.

                For example, Americans from one UDC are planted from the air in the first wave of one DSR (about xNUMX people) to the rear tact. defense of the enemy on the shore, and about 120 people on the floating BTR + 400 tank immediately with them. And from the same ship 4 attack helicopters are kept in the air, and on the deck in readiness for the 6 takeoff of the attack aircraft.
                And in the same place, on the same ship, the second echelon of the same number, with artillery, trucks, plus a rear battalion with equipment, up to a dental platoon, plus MTO stockpiles on the 4 of the day of battles and again the same boat for delivery of supplies from transports on the roads. And the operating room for the wounded.

                This all gives ONE SHIP.

                How to organize the same with the help of any technical acrobatics such as WIG? No
                It will be necessary to quickly transfer troops - we will load the Airborne Forces in IL-76 and forward. We need a lot of troops with tanks and cannons - we take the ships, otherwise we will need thousands of WIGs. In peacetime, they will simply stand and rot - and it is mostly peaceful. It is profitable to use aircraft with ships for transportation at least — the same IL can fly to Moscow, and the ship can be loaded with shells and sent to Syria.
                And with ekranoplan what to do?
                Even in the USSR, this topic was barely breathing, and what did such projects like there.
                Now, when everyone considers money, including the military, the topic does not take off. And it is right.
                1. 0
                  26 November 2018 08: 49
                  Alexander do not want to study this issue, your own business.
                  But I don’t have to convince me of anything.
                2. 0
                  26 November 2018 12: 43
                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  For example, Americans from one UDC planted from the air in the first wave one DSR (approx. 120 people) to the rear tact. enemy defense on the shore,

                  Do you think that they will use this tactic in the war with Russia? And then, why did you decide that this naval group would not be destroyed in the first thirty minutes after the outbreak of war. So the American landing ships will not even have time to approach the coast of Russia.
        3. 0
          25 November 2018 23: 54
          unfortunately in my opinion. there, not everything was so bad ..
      2. 0
        23 December 2018 23: 23
        The building of Shop No. 8 of the Dagdiesel plant in the waters of Kaspiysk.
    2. +3
      23 November 2018 08: 23
      There are no countries and places left on the planet where we could carry out amphibious assault, these are either the "Partners" countries or their comrades.


      Amerov from Kamchatka knock out)))). Liberate Odessa, while there Bandera not slaughtered a bunch of locals. Unlock Transnistria, if it comes to that. But you never know where.

      But seriously, you are ahead. In the late forties, both in the USSR and in the USA, theorists came to the conclusion that tactical nuclear weapons buried the very idea of ​​a naval assault force.

      But it turned out differently.
      1. +4
        23 November 2018 08: 45
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Amer from Kamchatka knock

        Amers need Kamchatka? For what?
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Yes, you never know where

        Where exactly?
        1. -2
          23 November 2018 12: 30
          And you put yourself in the place of the Supreme Commander. The enemy landed in Kamchatka, proclaimed a puppet government there and recognized him.
          But he did not touch the main cities of the Russian Federation, only he warned that his SNF was ready, and if our pens reached for the button ...

          Here is what you do?
          1. +6
            23 November 2018 13: 12
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            Here is what you do?

            laughing Yes, I will not do anything, because as soon as the last idiot can drive himself into the Kamchatka dead end - this is the time!
            Landing in Kamchatka due to the complexity of the coastline is possible only on the western side, i.e. the enemy needs to force the Kuril Straits in full view, or shove into Avacha Bay directly under machine guns! If you have Elizovo, you don’t even have to think about capturing Kamchatka! These are two!
            Thousands of kilometers from the coast of the enemy to Kamchatka, reconnaissance ships, MAPLs, patrol planes and satellites will pinpoint your exit from the ports, moreover, reconnaissance will reveal the concentration of landing forces and landing and landing equipment even at the beginning of the implementation of your plan! This will serve as a bell for the transfer of aviation to Kamchatka, Sakhalin and Magadan! This is three!
            Wellcome!
            1. +1
              23 November 2018 19: 08
              Quote: Serg65
              Yes, I will not do anything, because as soon as the last idiot can drive himself into the Kamchatka dead end - this is the time!

              One such attempt has already covered the unfading glory of the gloomy British warriors laughing
            2. 0
              24 November 2018 13: 30
              This will serve as a bell for the transfer of aviation to Kamchatka, Sakhalin and Magadan! These are three!
              Wellcome!


              And now we consider the airfields, where it can be deployed in those parts.
          2. +2
            23 November 2018 18: 36
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            The enemy landed in Kamchatka, proclaimed a puppet government there and recognized it.

            Agreed with the Pacific Fleet?
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            Here is what you do?

            It is urgent to deal with the SF before the enemy outbids it. Find out where the Baltic sailors are and what they are doing. The cruiser "Aurora" should be sunk immediately, especially if it is sailing along the Volga-Baltic system towards Moscow.
            Black Sea Fleet is not a pity, let them do what they want.
            1. +3
              24 November 2018 13: 31
              There is practically no Pacific Fleet, they will soon be renamed the flotilla)))
          3. -1
            23 November 2018 19: 17
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            And you put yourself in the place of the Supreme Commander. The enemy landed in Kamchatka, proclaimed a puppet government there and recognized him.

            =========
            Oooooo !!! And you, my friend, you graduated from high school ??? How old are you then? Where so stormy Children fantasies ??? fellow
            "... The enemy has landed in Kamchatka ...." ... recourse
            No, well ONE time it was ...... Very, very long time !!! Well, who is the story (in and school!) studied - REMEMBER how it ended ...... The truth then was neither aviation, nor precision weapons, much less nuclear weapons ..... (well, the 19th century! why take them from them .. ..)
          4. 0
            24 December 2018 19: 24
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            The enemy landed in Kamchatka,

            Enough supplies for a couple of weeks, and then what? How to supply grouping? Where and how to support?
            Or do you think the seizure ends?
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. +2
        23 November 2018 19: 04
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Amer from Kamchatka knock out)))). Liberate Odessa, while there Bandera did not kill a bunch of locals. Unlock Transnistria, if it comes to that.

        ==========
        My friend !!! Yes, you are just some aggressor !!! fool
      4. +3
        23 November 2018 19: 26
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        But seriously, you are ahead. In the late forties, both in the USSR and in the USA, theorists came to the conclusion that tactical nuclear weapons buried the very idea of ​​a naval assault force.
        But it turned out differently.

        =======
        Well-ooh !!! OTHERWISE happened because the "enemy" has not yet used tactical nuclear weapons! ........ Somewhere like that !!! request
    3. +4
      23 November 2018 19: 37
      Quote: max702
      The article is good, though one BUT .. The answer is not given what even hypothetical landing we will land? To what country ? Which continent?

      Baltic States, Georgia, Ukraine. Enough? The USA is doing its best to create hotbeds of tension around us. It is noteworthy that they decided to buy the Mistrals after 08.08.08. Of course, a lot of fans immediately appeared to shout that it was a bribe from France, but no one could give any evidence. The apotheosis of "sanity" was an article on this site, where the shock capabilities of Mistral were compared with ... PL. YES, yes, by submarine.
      1. 0
        23 November 2018 22: 12
        Articles are the main message, we need UDC, BDK, and all that to them. I liked the comment by Max 702, I am quite in solidarity with him, - and what to do today with the UDC and airborne units and other households, in Syria and nowhere is needed, and we will not climb into Libya and other pans, and will not allow ... 20 years are foreseen, or even completely, with the transition to cyber and other media of war ... Now the main war for the brains, here and there efforts, because they crush us dry by pulling: Georgia, the Baltic States, Ukraine, Moldova ... Poland, Romania ... All of Europe is opposed. The thought about the reasons passed, in vain GDP 2008 spoke at the European summit against everyone, expressing, - "Now listen to us", (with hidden threats of force), so they answered, they drove into complete outcasts for 10 years ... Conclusion - better to be silent than to speak in vain, especially with a threat ...
        1. +1
          23 November 2018 23: 04
          Quote: Vladimir 5
          Now the main war for the brains, that’s where the efforts go, for they are pulling us into the dry by pulling: Georgia, the Baltic states, Ukraine, Moldova ... Poland, Romania ...
          Brain? Did Sashko Bilogo have brains? Or those who rode on the Maidan?
          Quote: Vladimir 5
          Large landings are not expected 20 years
          Source Delphic oracle? No one knows what will happen in 5-6 years, and it is better to prepare in advance.
          Quote: Vladimir 5
          All of Europe is opposed. The thought about the reasons passed, in vain GDP 2008 spoke at the European summit against everyone, saying - "Now listen to us", (with hidden threats of force), so they answered, drove into complete outcasts for 10 years
          What is Europe? US vassals?
          1. +1
            24 November 2018 12: 06
            On the first: -Sasha Bily and similar products of brainwashing and conquest. On the second: strategic planning is carried out for tens of years and with knowledge of the prospects for everything. On the third: US vassals because the Russian Federation (USSR) lost the world confrontation (I will not analyze the reasons) and lost all its vassals and even friends. Conclusion: Russia is led by those who have weakened the most powerful state with friendship and led into the world's outcasts. (to a large extent and failures in the fight for "brains") .....
            1. 0
              24 November 2018 14: 33
              Quote: Vladimir 5
              because the Russian Federation (USSR) lost the global confrontation (I will not disassemble the reasons) and lost all its vassals and even friends. Conclusion: Russia is ruled by those who have weakened the most powerful state with commonwealth and led into world outcasts

              And Russia is led by those who led the USSR in the 90s?
              Hmm ... Original.
              1. 0
                24 November 2018 14: 41
                Recall who was Gaidar, Chubais, Yakovlev, Yeltsin under the USSR, now their sons and close associates (the same squire Sobchak) have been in power for more than 20 years. You, dear, are blind to both ...
                1. -3
                  24 November 2018 15: 05
                  Quote: Vladimir 5
                  You, dear, are blind to both ...


                  Really?
                  1. +1
                    24 November 2018 15: 19
                    My dear, this is all for seeds compared to stolen for a trillion dollars, and not rubles. Show to the blind - do not show, you won’t see all of it ......
                    1. +1
                      24 November 2018 16: 52
                      That's exactly what you are blind here, you see only one thing. They will tell you they have built a new stadium, spent 1 yard, you will only see kickbacks in this, but you will not see the stadium point-blank. Conclusion? To the optometrist!
                    2. 0
                      24 November 2018 17: 06
                      Quote: Vladimir 5
                      compared with stolen for a trillion dollars, and not rubles

                      Will the source be?
                      Quote: Vladimir 5
                      Show to the blind - do not show, all one will not see

                      That you are self-critical.
                      1. +1
                        24 November 2018 17: 16
                        About, sometimes for $ 100 billion, irrevocably and not working in the Russian Federation are withdrawn from Russia per year. The figure is officially recognized. Multiply by years, we get under two trill.doll. We’ll amend the odds 0,7 (Returns in court, closing holes of private monopolies stolen from the people, etc. ...) at the output of one and a half trillion dollars withdrawn under the auspices of the Central Bank of the Russian Federation ... Remember the arithmetic more often before asking, look like Dunno ...
                      2. 0
                        24 November 2018 17: 56
                        Quote: Vladimir 5
                        About, sometimes even for $ 100 billion, is withdrawn from Russia per year

                        Yes, I know. But this money is not "stolen by Putin", but the consequences of losing in Cold War, which was not lost by Putin.
                      3. +1
                        24 November 2018 18: 48
                        Complicity in a crime with the withdrawal of trillions of dollars from the Russian Federation, this is how the role of GDP can be determined. But by all the events, one can understand that he, like a wedding general, looks beautiful but has no influence ... (starting from the explicit and complete sabotage of the "May decrees" and so on ...) Therefore, VVP is not guilty, since incapacitated ...
                      4. 0
                        24 November 2018 19: 09
                        Quote: Vladimir 5
                        But for all the events, you can understand that he, as a wedding general, looks beautiful but has no influence ...

                        It has. Not as it should, but "the water wears away the stone."
                      5. -1
                        24 December 2018 19: 27
                        Quote: Vladimir 5
                        About, sometimes for $ 100 billion, it is withdrawn from Russia annually.

                        Is Treasury Buying a Capital Withdrawal Also? So what do you think?
                      6. 0
                        24 December 2018 21: 22
                        When the economy of the Russian Federation suffocates in the absence of at least acceptable ones, NOT rates of predatory loans, and huge funds are kept in treasuries with meager rates, such a policy of the Central Bank of the Russian Federation can only be called a crime against the economy of the Russian Federation. Look at the statements of economists with the titles: S. Glazyev, Delyagin, Kasatonov - they directly call by their own names the policy of the Central Bank of the Russian Federation ...
                      7. 0
                        24 December 2018 21: 30
                        Konstantin. Adding. The purchase of US securities (including treasuries) and other other assets is not included in the annual $ 100 billion withdrawn from the Russian Federation. This is additionally the Central Bank.RF siphons the "blood of the economy" and bleeds the economy of the Russian Federation ...
      2. +4
        23 November 2018 22: 38
        Until VO five years ago he was an opponent of the Mistrals. And how he read the opinions of knowledgeable people (there were the majority on the site then, but with different points of view), he became their supporter. And even more so after the return of Crimea and Sevastopol. Who knows on which bank the DRG partners will land? Search and destruction from helicopters, landing with a combing of the terrain under control from the UDC. Or have you forgotten the Ukrainian provocations on Chongar? And the "refugees" in Norway? If anything, then Murmansk is nearby. A terrorist attack or some other nasty thing with someone else's hands for partners, like a good morning, and you can't show it, it's ISIS, NATO doesn't welcome them. This is what came to mind. But for the adversary Fleet in being (English Fleet in being - literally “(strength) of the fleet in existence,” it's like “Tirpitz.” He didn't do a fig, but he distracted almost the entire war much more than he posed as a threat. It would have been necessary in advance, and without the exact need and the likelihood of use, to allocate forces and means for observation, elimination, and if it does not work out, then the defense of possible landing zones with personnel, weapons, ammunition, provision and ration, etc. That's what made Obama to fuck Hollande as one of the arguments.
  2. Ber
    +2
    23 November 2018 07: 33
    The material and technical means of ensuring landing operations must be prepared in advance - this is the second important lesson from past experience.

    Black Sea Fleet it was Poti in Georgia.

    One way or another, the industry has not shown itself ready for independent designing of analogues of the French Mistral, even if we assume that under the conditions of sanctions it is possible to produce all the necessary components.


    Why design analogs?
    You need to take the best of world experience and create your own.





    Thus, the SWAH vessel will have two ramps for the exit of equipment, on the bow and aft, providing an over-speed landing.
    SWAH technology also allows you to heat both the bow and the stern, or in full.
    1. +6
      23 November 2018 08: 17
      Any ship that approaches the coast, from which the entire enemy has not been cleaned, will at best be fired at with losses. Just imagine that there was a single calculation of the ATGM that survived, and waited for the landing of the landing craft. The gates open, a rocket flies in there, into the head machine, and hello. What is this all about?
      1. Ber
        0
        23 November 2018 08: 20
        Just imagine that one ATRA crew survived there, and waited for the landing ship to arrive.


        The exercises of the Black Sea Fleet UG-90 landing from the An-26 in Izmail, I am a little bit in the know. wink
        1. 0
          23 November 2018 08: 28
          Well, all the more
      2. Ber
        -2
        23 November 2018 08: 27
        Why is this all?

        For overseas landing. Even with intense excitement that can withstand BMP.

        laughing
        Just imagine that one ATRA crew survived there, and waited for the landing ship to arrive.


        And both without having time to aim, they will catch one pool in the head from a sniper, if you are not in the know, calculating the ATGM is an ideal target.
        1. +3
          23 November 2018 08: 29
          It depends on how to dig in and disguise.
          1. Ber
            -3
            23 November 2018 08: 32
            It depends on how to dig in and disguise.


            There is such a concept of fear, when only one survived, they will lie until dark.
            NATO is not Japan they have no kamikaze laughing
            1. +6
              23 November 2018 08: 45
              You can laugh when the enemy is destroyed, and before that such self-confidence - at least stupidity. What makes you think that these people will consider themselves kamikazes? Maybe they will believe in the possibility of withdrawal? Or option number two - will they be fed amphetamines? Captagon is a European invention, and was driven around on ISIS (banned in the Russian Federation) and maydauns (tea). In the west, this chemistry is rightly called the NATO Wardrug, the man himself feels God under it, he doesn’t care about any risks.

              In general, tie up with a cap.

              And it’s not so much to land in NATO, in the last war, more and more Novorossiysk stormed from the water, Crimea and villages of every kind in the Kuban.
              1. Ber
                0
                23 November 2018 08: 50
                In fact, we are not writing about anything, since there is a tactic of application, but there is a human factor at the level of 50 \ 50, that is, chance. Surviving after the shelling is a shell shock, and real panic fear, and for all who can overcome it, someone is not, 50 \ 50 request
                1. +3
                  23 November 2018 08: 57
                  And quickly fitted after the shelling SPTRK? And tearing a single turntable to the landing zone? Apache Longbow with the possibility of aiming due to vertical shelter? Or a UAV with a rocket? Or a reconnaissance group with walkie-talkie and communications with artillery barrels in 10 km from the water's edge?

                  Once again, there were times when the barge could have been adjusted to the enemy coast about 60 years ago. Now you can not do that. First, the exit from the sea, dropping the enemy and the capture of the bridgehead, then the approach of the barn with heavy machinery, on the shore, cleaned and unobserved by the enemy. No other options should be available.
                  1. +6
                    23 November 2018 12: 11
                    Quote: timokhin-aa
                    And quickly fitted after the shelling SPTRK? And tearing a single turntable to the landing zone? Apache Longbow with the possibility of aiming due to vertical shelter? Or a UAV with a rocket? Or a reconnaissance group with walkie-talkie and communications with artillery barrels in 10 km from the water's edge?

                    Or survivor in the folds of the terrain mortar battery. By slowly crawling or standing BDK even samovars will not miss.
                  2. -1
                    23 November 2018 19: 33
                    Quote: timokhin-aa
                    First, leaving the sea, throwing the enemy and seizing the bridgehead, then the approach of the shed with heavy equipment, to the coast cleared and unobserved by the enemy. There should be no other options.

                    =========
                    My friend! You are just a STRATEGIC !!! I just don’t understand whether you graduated from the "Academy of the General Staff" or only "high school" (well, just VERY average!)
                    You just do not be offended .... But your reasoning .... Well, some really VERY CHILDREN'S!!
                  3. 0
                    28 December 2018 09: 51
                    These times of floating tanks crawling ashore at a snail's speed and without fire cover 60 years ago (which is confirmed by the times of developing these devices).
      3. -6
        23 November 2018 19: 07
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Any ship that approaches the coast, from which the entire enemy has not been cleaned, will at best be fired at with losses. Just imagine that there was a single calculation of the ATGM that survived, and waited for the landing of the landing craft. The gates open, a rocket flies in there, into the head machine, and hello. What is this all about?

        =========
        Ooooooo !!! This is serious!!! My friend, how old are you HOW MUCH ????
        Reasoning at the level of "3rd grade, 2nd quarter" ..... Well, excuse me ... FOR MORE - DOES NOT Pull !!! request
    2. 0
      23 November 2018 08: 31
      Quote: Ber
      Black Sea Fleet it was Poti in Georgia

      And how did MP land? Not from ships standing at the pier? And why all these Morpeh stray? What prevents to land MP from an ordinary ship? The time of the landings (mass) has passed both in the MP and in the airborne forces .. Losses will not be acceptable! Accordingly, it is important to direct the funds allocated for landing training \ equipment to other aspects increasing the combat effectiveness of units ..
      1. Ber
        0
        23 November 2018 08: 34
        If you are not aware of Poti in Georgia, it WAS the Black Sea Fleet's Marine Corps depots with ammunition from the times of the USSR, and you didn’t land there, you replenished BC and much more in the Black Sea Fleet.
        1. 0
          23 November 2018 08: 42
          I remember the landing of the MP there before the conflict on 08.08.08 at an earlier time, sort of like in the late 90s .. Just when peacekeepers were introduced into South Ossetia
          1. Ber
            0
            23 November 2018 08: 46
            I remember the landing of the MP there before the conflict on 08.08.08 at an earlier time, sort of like in the late 90s .. Just when peacekeepers were introduced into South Ossetia


            You do not know at all that it was in the 1990s of the USSR, Ishmael is Ukraine, near Moldova.

            08.08.08 is 2008 year ??? THIS is 18 years after the exercises.

            Dear, what have you written about? Stay there, come here?
            1. 0
              23 November 2018 11: 45
              https://topwar.ru/36629-kak-rossiyane-spasali-shevardnadze.html читайте [media=https://topwar.ru/36629-kak-rossiyane-spasali-shevardnadze.html] смотрите.
              1. Ber
                0
                23 November 2018 23: 03
                What should I watch, I personally took part, urgent, and you throw links to me request
      2. +5
        23 November 2018 08: 46
        This is an illusion. It's just that there have been no big wars for a long time. As for "the time of the Airborne Forces has passed," take an interest in the amerskoy offensive in Northern Iraq in 2003, who and how it led, and how it got there. Nothing ended, the landing has been buried many times as a concept, but something is still not working out.
        1. Ber
          +1
          23 November 2018 08: 51
          Nothing ended, the landing has been buried many times as a concept, but something doesn’t work out.

          good
    3. +6
      23 November 2018 12: 08
      Quote: Ber
      Thus, the SWAH vessel will have two ramps for the exit of equipment, on the bow and aft, providing an over-speed landing.
      SWAH technology also allows you to heat both the bow and the stern, or in full.

      One question - what are the internal volumes of the SWATH vessel?
      Let me remind you that the landing is not limited to helicopters and personnel. The landing ship must carry all the equipment of the marine battalion, as well as ammunition and other supplies for the battalion and its means of landing.
      Oh yes, it’s also better to store aircraft in the hangar, and not on the flight deck.
      1. Ber
        0
        23 November 2018 23: 06
        One question - what are the internal volumes of the SWATH vessel?

        I do not know.
        I am not a marine engineer and am not familiar with hydrodynamics.
        Photos laid out based on intuition.
        That is, he raised the topic for discussion, maybe someone who knows hydrodynamics will write an article that I will read with great interest.
    4. 0
      1 December 2018 15: 51
      Vessels with a small area of ​​the waterline cannot drag a lot. And the landing ship is, first of all, transport that drags tanks, helicopters, ammunition, marines, etc., etc.
      And they can’t drag a lot for a simple reason: when loading such ships they don’t have the corresponding displacement to compensate for the weight of the cargo. And if you sink them to the bottom of the platform, then the devil knows what happens in terms of seaworthiness.
      The idea of ​​such ships is a long-standing one. But they did not carry it out for a simple reason. Only recently, the development of electronics has allowed the creation of highly efficient stabilization systems on the go. Only they allow you not to dive in the wave. See the underwater wings on the model? These are the wings of this system. She is active. And these wings constantly deflect on the go. Due to all these features, the load of such vessels should be more or less constant.
  3. +12
    23 November 2018 07: 36
    It amazes me how the mantra about "vertical reach" is repeated from time to time as the dogma of the correct method of landing. At the same time, it is never revealed how it will look in practice, especially against a strong opponent. Helicopters somehow magically find themselves in the rear of the defenders' positions, and disembarking paratroopers in the same magical way always successfully smash the antiamphibious defense from the rear and cut off communications. If the landing is carried out against a really strong enemy, then it is not difficult to guess that the hunt for these helicopters and their carriers will begin even before the dragonflies approach the coastline. Fighters and combat helicopters of the defenders will take care of this, and the coast in places where helicopters can fly will be reinforced with air defense. If one of the paratroopers gets to the landing site, then it's hard for me to imagine how they will smash the antiamphibious defense (which has tanks, armored vehicles and artillery at a strong enemy). Of course they will do something there, but how much?
    Thus, provided that we are going to land against just a strong enemy, the landing with the use of vertical coverage reaches the same level as the usual landing of the classic BDK - preliminary gaining superiority in the air and at sea in the landing area and the total destruction of the enemy’s airborne defense shore - obviously by plowing aircraft and artillery ships. After that, the question of whether to fly there on dragonflies or to fit the BDK with a ramp no longer matters - the enemy is no longer on the shore, or is he in agony.
    The same goes for the horizontality of this entire helicopter epic. A strong enemy is absolutely parallel, whether the landing ships are 100 meters from the coast or they are 35 kilometers away - to hammer them with cannons is the last, last resort. They need to be fired with rockets and aviation, that is, they must have dominance in the landing zone, and before the range of the guns starts to matter, you need to sort this out somehow. And against a weak opponent - you can land as you please. After WWII, the USA and the USSR carried out landing operations against weak opponents equally successfully, each in its own way.
    The fact that such a helicopter landing is, after all, is the experience, standards and tactics of the airborne assault brigades of the SV USSR (not to be confused with the airborne forces!). What outfit of forces was required there, what losses were planned - everything is known. The minimum landing, which has at least some sense, is a battalion, for it to land, it was necessary to 2 the full squadron of one MBP from 42 Mi-24 and 20 Mi-8 (how many UDCs can accommodate such a group?), While in the first flight it was predicted to 50% aircraft losses, and the lifespan of a foot landing is 2-3 days if the main army forces do not reach the landing site. Here is such a swing against a strong opponent. And against the weak - see Afghanistan.
    1. +8
      23 November 2018 08: 15
      Fighters and attack helicopters of the defenders will take it, and the coast in places where helicopters can fly over will be reinforced by air defense. If someone from the paratroopers gets to the landing site, then it’s hard for me to imagine how they will smash the antiamphibious defense (which has a strong opponent with tanks, armored vehicles and artillery). Something they certainly will do there, but how many?


      Well, you are right by the Wehrmacht near Kursk ready to go. Who is the unrepressed defense in the strongest place attacking? The chip attack from the mroy just is that the whole coast cannot be covered by the enemy, the attacker will always find a weak point.

      The minimum landing force that has at least some sense is a battalion; for its landing, it was necessary to takeoff 2 with the full complement of one OBVP from 42 Mi-24 and 20 Mi-8 (how many UDC can accommodate such a group?)


      They need to hold out for a couple of hours with the support of their aircraft, or even ship artillery. In the MP brigade it is quite possible to form an airborne assault battalion for airborne landing, if the enemy is really strong, then you must use the UDC as a base for air defense. landing, there are lots of ways to solve the problem in fact.

      In general - if you want to "fight" in the comments - let's introduce some kind of map)))
      1. Ber
        +1
        23 November 2018 09: 00
        In the MP brigade, it is quite possible to form an air assault battalion for airborne landing,


        good For a long time still formed in the USSR, DShB, and even DShB frame. laughing
        The Marines even have NONA. drinks
      2. +3
        23 November 2018 09: 10
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Who attacks the unsupported defense in the strongest place?

        If the defense is suppressed or weak - I see no problem in finishing it with naval artillery and land right on the edge of the water - immediately with tanks, guns, bears and balalaikas on the armor))) Because the tank in the landing is a very necessary thing in the first wave, not later.
        Helicopter landing is a useful and necessary thing. The attacker, of course, will also be able, more or less successfully, to find a loophole in the defense for sending helicopters to the enemy's rear with minimal losses. But I would not, for the sake of vertical coverage, find fault with the Soviet method of landing and abandon our classic large landing craft. There are many reasons for this. And perhaps these very BDKs suit us in the best way. We still won't be able to create a fleet capable of carrying out operational level assault forces (see the required helicopter order for a battalion landing - this is 2-3 UDCs, it's not realistic to build such a number of UDCs for each fleet), we don't have money for this, yes and the needs are not great. It is unlikely that powerful expeditionary landings will be possible. But "assistance to the coastal flank of the SV" is precisely the BDK and can be carried out in the best possible way. Or visit our Georgian neighbors. The only question is what kind of large landing craft we need.
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        They need to hold out for a couple of hours with the support of their aircraft, or even naval artillery.

        "hold out" - that's it. And they, in theory, should not hold out, but strike in the rear and cut off communications, that is, not hold on but act actively. Soviet DShB landed with the support of 40 Mi-24! How much UDC is needed for such a group? Can we build them? I think no. Then what are we airborne? Apparently a company. That automatically lowers our troops from the operational to the tactical level. Or it is necessary to involve the Airborne Forces. And if all the same landing is tactical, then 3-4 large landing ships with a helipad on each are enough for this. Practically "Ivan Gren" turned out.
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        In the MP brigade, it is quite possible to form an air assault battalion for airborne landing

        This is all available for a long time. )))
        1. 0
          23 November 2018 09: 14
          If the defense is depressed or weak - I see no problems in finishing it with ship artillery and will land right on the water's edge - immediately with tanks, cannons, bears and balalaikas on armor)))


          To the British with this. They landed not where the defense was weak, but where it was not there at all. recall result?

          And yes, a company assault with air support may well prevent the enemy from sending reinforcements to the shore for a couple of hours while the main wave grinds its defenses on the shore.

          As an option.
          1. +3
            23 November 2018 09: 21
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            To the British with this. They landed not where the defense was weak, but where it was not there at all. recall result?

            This example is from another opera. This is an example of what I said above - any landing requires confident conquest of air and sea supremacy in the landing zone. Imagine that in the place of "Sir Galahad" any other vessel. For example "Wasp" or "Tarawa". And even if she is a little further from the coast. What does it change? Until the end of the war, the Argentines did not allow the British to gain air supremacy and that is why they lost the TDK. And besides the TDK, they lost several more URO ships. But if you follow your logic, it turns out that destroyers with frigates are unnecessary junk - the result can be recalled)))
            And by the way, if we are talking about the results. The landing is successful. The objectives of the operation are achieved. )))
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            And yes, a company assault with air support may well prevent the enemy from sending reinforcements to the shore for a couple of hours while the main wave grinds its defenses on the shore.

            If you guess the way of approach of reinforcements - then yes. If you do not guess, then the amphibious assault force will not be able to maneuver to the routes of approach of reinforcements due to low mobility. Better to immediately call "Uncle Vasya")))
            1. 0
              23 November 2018 09: 27
              Quote: Alex_59
              This example is from another opera. This is an example of what I said above - any landing requires confident conquest of air and sea supremacy in the landing zone. Imagine that in the place of "Sir Galahad" any other vessel. For example "Wasp" or "Tarawa".


              So they had two helicopter carriers. And they did not suffer. If Wasp were there, he wouldn't have been hurt either. It was just that a mechanized battalion would descend on the water in the same place, in 10 km from the water's edge, directly into a protected warrant and get to the coast under its own power. This is the chip overhead landing.
              1. +4
                23 November 2018 10: 03
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                So they had two helicopter carriers. And they did not suffer.

                Alexander, well, what are you kidding))) TDK died not because they were "tank landing", and "helicopter carriers" escaped hits not because they were "helicopter-carrying".

                For that matter, the TDKs were attacked after the end of the active phase of the landing. The landing was on May 21, and they were attacked on June 8. Both TDKs were not at the water's edge, but at a depth, cargo transshipment from them was carried out by helicopters and boats (in fact, they played the role of transports). There was no air defense - the escort ships were located far from the coast, and the Rapira coastal air defense systems did not cover the TDK parking area with the affected area.
                Incidentally, at the time of the May 21 landing, using vertical coverage method, only in one place were 30 Argentines opposing the invasion forces and they shot down 2 landing helicopters (from the 30 participating in the operation). What would happen if the Argentines had not 30, but 300 ...
                1. +3
                  23 November 2018 11: 46
                  TDK died due to the fact that they were near the coast. Helicopter bearers did not fly because they were far away

                  What would happen if the Argentines were not 30, but 300 ...


                  Well, and the Britons threw forces))). 300 is a battalion opornik, it can not be hidden, would have punched with cluster bombs until blue in the face, and the landing on 4 km would be transferred.
                  1. +2
                    23 November 2018 12: 42
                    Quote: timokhin-aa
                    TDK died due to the fact that they were near the coast. Helicopter bearers did not fly because they were far away
                    Was the Atlantic Conveyor off the coast or not? Has he arrived normally or not?
                    Quote: timokhin-aa
                    300 is a battalion opornik, do not hide it

                    And if these are 10 platoonmen, and not one battalion? Hide? For calculations of MANPADS, the support is not needed. Bush on a hillock and foam for relaxation and communication. All. Air defense also has the concept of "ambush".
                    Quote: timokhin-aa
                    would have been hollowed with cluster bombs until they turned blue, and the landing on 4 km would have been postponed.
                    Well yes. Only the practice of Chechnya with Afghanistan shows that the hunt for MANPADS or PGI calculations is somewhat more difficult)))
                    1. +1
                      23 November 2018 13: 10
                      Was the Atlantic Conveyor off the coast or not? Has he arrived normally or not?

                      SO let's aggravate! Increase the risks! So what?

                      And if it is 10 platoons, and not one battalion? Hide? For calculations MANPADS opornik not needed.


                      Let's send the Ka-52K eksadril to the night weeding of the fields first. Look through the landing site with a UAV equipped with a thermal imager. Choose another area.
                      In any case, the aircraft is more vulnerable than a helicopter, and now they are jumping from them.
                      1. +8
                        23 November 2018 13: 40
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        SO let's aggravate! Increase the risks! So what?

                        No, why not. You just need to have a clear idea that the capabilities of our marines are either the spread of the Papuans, or in the event of a serious mess, the maximum is assistance to the coastal flank or tactical landings. And already from this proceed. That is, one large UDC per fleet, not our option. And in fact, there are two of them for the fleet at least, because After all, there will be repairs, who will remain in the ranks if the only naval UDC dock for a couple of years? Better 15-20 BDK with a pair of helicopters each. It is also desirable that the appearance was like that of the "Tapir", inconspicuous, dry cargo. At the same time, Somalia will do well as a base for chasing all kinds of pirates. And you can show them the flag in several places at once in peacetime.
                        And in a big war it is better to immediately rely on close cooperation with the aviation and troops of "Uncle Vasya". Without them, I think you should not count on success. But if we seize the coast, we can immediately throw tanks there, and that's all we need. ))) Tanks are our everything!
                      2. +1
                        23 November 2018 14: 40
                        assistance to the seaside flank or tactical landings. And to proceed from this.


                        Well, in the Crimea in 1941, we landed 33000 with the battle and then delivered another 50 000.
                        This is the support of the flank of the army, if that. A "tactical" landing is up to the division.
                        Compare with what we can now.
                      3. +3
                        23 November 2018 19: 05
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        Well, in the Crimea in 1941, we landed 33000 with the battle and then delivered another 50 000.

                        In those years, 50 thousands were not many. A couple of armies there, a couple of divisions here. And today 50 thousand is a whole military district. Today it’s hard to imagine such a scale, except if we are talking about China. Like the solid front line from Murmansk to Rostov.
                      4. 0
                        24 November 2018 13: 34
                        In any case, now no more than a battalion without rears - nothing by absolutely any measure.
          2. +2
            23 November 2018 12: 30
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            To the British with this. They landed not where the defense was weak, but where it was not there at all. recall result?

            And let's remember the Americans with their "Flash of Rage". They planned to actively use helicopter assault forces, especially in the southern sector, with an overwhelming superiority in aviation and an almost complete absence of enemy air defense. As a result, almost all helicopter assault forces ended in the loss of helicopters and people. The parachuting rangers screwed up the same thing - they fought with each other for several hours in the area of ​​the airport under construction. Marines with tanks landed in the Grenville area from steamers were most successful.
      3. +6
        23 November 2018 09: 23
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Well, you are directly ready to go by the Wehrmacht near Kursk. Who attacks the unsupported defense in the strongest place?

        The question is not that, but that the coastal defense system you have described will be smashed either by the landing on the large landing craft or by the American method of "vertical coverage". Floating armored personnel carriers and landing boats / barges to the beach will be much easier to destroy than amphibious assault ships with a large landing craft. And the landing from helicopters to the rear of the defenders ... Well, they landed, for example, although a transport helicopter is a very tasty target, and you can shoot it down with a lot of things. And then what? The landing site is spotted at once, he will not have serious armored vehicles, the defenders have artillery ... They will suppress him, and that's the end of it.
        In general, that for our large landing craft, that for "vertical coverage" it is vitally necessary to suppress the defense in the landing area to a state of complete confusion, and here the American method does nothing.
        More precisely .. gives. Without AUG, the United States will not land, the wing and will crush. But this is not a UDC question
        1. -1
          23 November 2018 09: 30
          Floating armored personnel carriers and amphibious assault boats / barges on the beach will be much easier to destroy than shipborne assault with a BDK.


          Some strange logic. Why?

          The landing place is intercepted at times, it will not have serious armored vehicles, the defenders have artillery


          Landing troops do not land wink

          The attacker seeks not only in the surprise landing, but also to ensure that the reinforcements of the enemy on this landing too, naparivalis suddenly. And the artillery is being crushed by its aircraft, on a tip from the same landing.
          Up to a heap, the landing can move, maneuver, attack, etc.

          Let's get some introduction with the map, explain how it looks.
          1. +3
            23 November 2018 10: 51
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            The attacker strives not only in the suddenness of the landing, but also to ensure that the enemy’s reinforcements on this assault also run suddenly

            An airborne warrant will be detected long before the start of the landing, so the warrant will be attacked even at the transition, and enemy reinforcements will advance in advance to the dangerous airborne directions!
            1. 0
              23 November 2018 11: 48
              Well, the task of the Navy is to protect DESO at the crossings and during the landing, and to mislead the enemy regarding the designated landing area.
              1. +5
                23 November 2018 11: 56
                I liked your
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                mislead the enemy regarding the designated landing area

                what How is it, my friend ??? Not well if the Papuans are playing the role of the enemy ... then yes, then it’s horse-riding !!!
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                The Navy’s mission is to protect DESO at crossings and during landing

                Hmm ... for this you need to build aircraft carriers and guard ships to them! But will the third world be conducted according to the canons of the second world? Something tells me that innovation and fighting will affect!
                1. 0
                  23 November 2018 13: 11
                  How is it, my friend ??? Not well if the Papuans are playing the role of the enemy ... then yes, then it’s horse-riding !!!


                  Maneuvering along the coast, demonstrative actions, false landings. Everything is as old as the world.
                  1. +2
                    23 November 2018 13: 18
                    Quote: timokhin-aa
                    Maneuvering along the coast, demonstrations, false assaults

                    Who are you going to fight with?
                  2. -1
                    23 November 2018 19: 43
                    Quote: timokhin-aa
                    Maneuvering along the coast, demonstrative actions, false landings. Everything is as old as the world.

                    =========
                    Oooo !!! How EVERYTHING is out of date ...... AND YOU DIDN'T TRY TO FEST YOURSELF ??? soldier
                2. 0
                  1 December 2018 16: 01
                  I remember somewhere long ago I read the review of our officer about the landing of Americans in Korea. He was an adviser there. It looked something like this: Horizon and water turned black from landing boats. It became simply clear that to hit on this mass from anything was simply useless. Like a flock of mosquitoes. And the landing occurred simultaneously in several places. They simply did not have time to do something effective. Therefore, they simply moved away.
                  Depending on the coastline, many landing options can be offered. By land, you just do not have time to concentrate the necessary forces.
                  And not a single d "" y "" r "" a "" k (this word is blocked here))) will not break into a prepared defense and a deployed army. This is proved by the experience of all landings. Either the defense was leveled by battleships or landed on an empty space.
            2. 0
              24 November 2018 05: 56
              An amphibious order will be detected long before the start of the landing

              That is why the idea of ​​landing with the help of ekranoplanes was promising even despite all the nuances associated with the ekranoplans. I already wrote once that under the conditions of the presence of full-fledged universal landing ships and complete dominance in the airspace (which can never be absolute and, therefore, very short-term, in connection with which the value of the landing time increases many times) - they seem to me personally where as the preferred option for the rapid deployment of troops. And not just fast but lightning fast, when the enemy had not yet managed to deploy his defense forces on the shore. In the presence of the latter, landing at least from the Bison, even from Orlyonok, is equally an occupation for suicide bombers. And so, aviation, cruise and tactical missiles temporarily suppress the enemy in the landing area, ekranoplanes land the first batch of paratroopers, they occupy positions on the coast and wait for the main forces to approach from the universal landing ships. And all this happens with the simultaneous landing in the rear of the airborne units.
              1. 0
                24 November 2018 06: 39
                This is in the past. And now the preparation for loading will already be known. At the moment, Russia needs to think not about planting and seizing something, but about preserving what is. Maps compare-the Russian Empire, the USSR and the Russian Federation. Accordingly, maps of NATO countries and unfriendly countries ready for NATO ..
                1. 0
                  1 December 2018 16: 33
                  It is, of course, known. But ours landed in Syria. And found them only there. No one noticed how loaded.
                2. 0
                  1 December 2018 20: 07
                  Well, in 1941 near Kerch who the USSR captured? Politicians should not be mixed in here. Kuriles will capture. Back.
          2. 0
            23 November 2018 19: 40
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            Let's get some introduction with the map, explain how it looks.

            ========
            And here - please DETAILS !!!! Which card should I give you? Region, scale, etc.
            Well, about the "introductory" - it is clear !!! bully
            1. 0
              23 November 2018 19: 42
              Something appropriate to the scale of the problem.
        2. +2
          23 November 2018 09: 57
          Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
          a transport helicopter is a very tasty target, and you can shoot it down a lot.

          And will anyone shoot down in that place? Let's say the coast is 300 km, every 5 km. To organize air defense?
          1. 0
            23 November 2018 11: 53
            He does not understand what he writes. He does not know what a helicopter looks like overhead, in a forest belt, for example. I did not see myself.
            And I did not see it in the pictures.
            1. +2
              23 November 2018 13: 20
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              He does not understand what he writes

              And you don’t understand too much what a sea landing is!
              1. +1
                23 November 2018 14: 41
                Well, as I do not understand - somehow I completely understand. I even saw the pictures.
                1. +1
                  23 November 2018 14: 47
                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  I even saw it in the pictures.

                  Well, yes, the pictures are probably interesting and colorful!
                  1. +3
                    23 November 2018 16: 03
                    You do not bullshit but essentially object.
                    1. +1
                      24 November 2018 06: 39
                      laughing Yes what ernichie! I’m hysterical from your opus !!!
                      Since there with a landing in Hokkaido, and ???
                  2. +4
                    23 November 2018 19: 37
                    Come on in order. The article’s autophone comments above are actually far from stupid. The landing assault implies the creation of several areas of false assaults to draw back the forces and means of the defenders. But why does it all come down to landing on the beach ??? the rear of special units of the fleet and MP, whose tasks include not only identifying the composition of enemy forces and defense, but also adjusting fire, conducting sabotage operations. There are many methods of casting groups, the length of the coastline also far from small. landing does not rest only on increasing the number of MPs on the shore. if we even consider landing with a udk, we take for example the expeditionary command of the United States. by the udk, which will obviously cover more than one destroyer, an air force will be given, 3-4 mapples and a lot of other interesting things up to supply vessels. When crossing the sea, you will not be able to do anything to this formation, and tracking it will be really problematic, and this will require a transfer of forces from other fleets. -800 m your air defense and coastal defense will begin to break into the ground massed by strikes cr. physically, in none of the fleets do we have enough air defense forces capable of repelling this strike. the last cr will not have time to fall, how to finish off the remaining air defense and defense forces will be deck aircraft .further, there will be a landing of the first wave of landing with the support of helicopters based on the fishing rod. try to hit at least our floating armored personnel carrier, taking into account almost completely destroyed your air defense and constant enemy air raids. on the shore, the landing forces will begin to expand the bridgehead with a constant build-up of forces on the coast. Moreover, by the time you can pull up and transfer reserves to counter the landing, you will have to deal with a rather small and well-armed army, which will be dropped into the sea very problematic. So the cudgel remained the most effective means against the landing, but it’s hardly possible to apply it, because there will be few people who want to receive answers across its territory. The author’s article can be anything you like, but that our mp is limited only to landing on our own coast is beyond doubt. And our marine corps is smoothly turning into coastal defense troops, and this is not the fault of the personnel, we have not really developed a concept for its use. hi
                    1. +1
                      24 November 2018 07: 41
                      Quote: Korax71
                      Come on in order. The article’s autophone comments above are actually far from being stupid

                      Ok, let's do it in order!
                      The landing has both pros and cons ...
                      I'll start with the cons. Preparation of the landing takes a certain time, i.e. in the ports of the enemy airborne-landing equipment, parts of the main landing force, material and technical equipment are beginning to concentrate, and this is difficult to hide from reconnaissance! Departure from the ports, construction in convoys (this will not be one warrant for five or six ships) will also be noticed almost immediately! No need to be seven spans in the forehead to determine the alleged landing site and what course the convoys will go! On the assumed course of the enemy’s movement, a MAPL and DEPL curtain will be put up, air-based anti-ship missiles will be constantly delivered to the convoys, enemy ports will be subjected to attacks by the Kyrgyz Republic, because the landing force must be constantly supplied with ammunition, fuel and food. As a result of these measures, part of the resources of the enemy strike force will be spent on the passage by sea, and when approaching the landing site, the enemy will already be weakened.
                      Now the landing area itself .... the defenders will mine not only the coastal strip, but also the adjacent sea areas. MLRS, artillery, tank and motorized infantry units, army aviation, air defense, electronic warfare will be concentrated in the areas adjacent to the proposed landing sites, and they will not stand in open positions, so it will be difficult to "take out" them with the first blow!
                      1. +1
                        24 November 2018 08: 23
                        What is a sea landing? Those. How is all this going on?
                        The marines, supported by ships and naval aviation, must land near the port, or in the enemy port itself. Capture this port and hold it until the main landing force approaches. The main forces are not transported by BDK and UDC, they are "carried" by Ro-Ro transports. These transports cannot land equipment and personnel on an unfitted shore. This example is effective if we land a landing on the mainland or a large island, but if we want to capture a small island standing far from the mainland, then the size of the landing party is reduced and the BDK, and better of course the UDC will suit us perfectly!
                        Let's find out the targets of amphibious landing hypothetically in demand for the Russian Federation. Support for the flanks of the ground forces during the offensive and counterattack, the seizure of the Baltic and Black Sea straits, coercion of peace of small states. What else? And all! I don’t see more goals!
                        Now we’re thinking about what kind of combat and landing ships and ships we need for this? Stopudovo abandon the imperial ambitions of the Republic of Ingushetia and the USSR over the straits and leave behind the support of the flanks and the enforcement of peace. We get 4-5 BDK, 2-3 UDC on the Black Sea Fleet, BF and SF, 8-10 BDK and 4-5 UDC on the Pacific Fleet .... somewhere like that!
                        hi
                      2. 0
                        24 November 2018 14: 56
                        Support of the flanks of the ground forces during offensive and counter-offensive


                        Everything, you can stop at this. In the minimal version, in modern times, this is an operation of the scale of "two brigades of the MP + 1 airborne brigade." And this is only to occupy the berths, to which the army will then be delivered.

                        Do you want to do this at BDK? Do not make me laugh.

                        However, you will have a tremendous opportunity to catch me by the keyboard in the very near future, I am planning a sequel, which will outline what, in my opinion, needs to be done to correct the situation, and that's where I suggest you "pick up checkers" ))))
                        Very soon already.
                      3. 0
                        1 December 2018 16: 05
                        For some reason, no one takes into account that the BDK is a huge goal. And the same Americans share goals: a bunch of boats, etc., VTOL and helicopters. Lost one - lost not so much. And the loss of one BDK - hello to the troops.
                        Just the Soviet marine system implies a landing without resistance. Otherwise, it’s just a disaster.
                      4. 0
                        24 November 2018 14: 53
                        On the supposed course of the enemy’s movement, the curtain of the MAPL and DEPL will be exposed, convoys will constantly be attacked by air-based anti-ship missiles, and enemy ports will be subjected to attacks of the CD, because the troops must be constantly supplied with ammunition, fuel and food. As a result of these measures, part of the enemy’s strike force resources will be spent on the sea crossing and when the enemy approaches the landing site, the enemy will already be weakened.


                        Well, you horse horse carts put, please. Destruction of the enemy's Navy is, as it were, a necessary stage, together with the achievement of air superiority over the DESO passage and disembarkation zones. Least.
            2. 0
              23 November 2018 19: 49
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              He does not understand what he writes. He does not know what a helicopter looks like overhead, in a forest belt, for example. I did not see myself.
              And I did not see it in the pictures.

              ==========
              And with what fright, dear, you think that "they do not know" And "not seen"?????
              You have to understand that EXACTLY - KNOW!!!! Yes? And EVERYTHING you, my dear saw .... AND HAVE been EVERYWHERE ..... And "in the combat zone" - too ??? Well - I am proud of you !!!! good
              I just don’t understand one thing - Well, WHERE IS HERE from a person - such CONFIDENCE ???? Where does it come from ???? request
      4. -1
        23 November 2018 19: 37
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        In general - if you want to "fight" in the comments - let's introduce some kind of map)))

        =========
        Why "introductory card" ??? In the comments, "to fight" is so easy to press the "complaint" button - and that's it !!! "Victory is GUARANTEED !!!! laughing
    2. +2
      23 November 2018 09: 55
      Quote: Alex_59
      The same goes for the horizontality of this entire helicopter epic.

      You are describing a straight layered defense of the coast. I admit it is possible in a certain area, such as Omaha Beach, but it is impossible to cover the entire coast. No enemy will have the forces and means to defend the entire coast. Therefore, vertical coverage is relevant, the enemy will defend mainly "beaches". And the USMC has airborne means and infantry and equipment. Not tanks, of course, but armored personnel carriers and artillery easily.
      Those. it is quite realistic to land an landing without encountering resistance, to entrench themselves, to shoot artillery, etc.

      1. +5
        23 November 2018 10: 53
        Quote: Puncher
        You describe the direct defense of the coast.

        Duck, we are talking about a war with an equal enemy. When the Papuans bomb - in general do not care how to land.
        Quote: Puncher
        I admit it is possible in a certain area, such as Omaha beach, but it is impossible to cover the entire coast.

        If the enemy is equal in strength to us, then he is able to determine those sections of the coast from which we can inflict serious damage on him in the event of a landing. It is these areas that he will cover in the first place. And we, in turn, will also want to land exactly where our landing has a chance to develop. Therefore, the enemy certainly will not cover the entire coast, and this is not possible. But he can prepare the position. So that the equipment on them in case of danger took up places for defense.
        Therefore, vertical coverage is relevant, the enemy will defend mainly "beaches".
        Again, if the enemy is equal in strength to us, which assumes that the enemy has brains, then it will not be a secret for us to have helicopters on ships for such landings. Consequently, retaliatory measures will also be taken. No one will constantly keep an air defense system on every kilometer of the coast, but working out the possibility of quick deployment when a threat is detected is a sweet thing. And then someone will replay whom. Only here is such an amendment - our helicopter landing from the sea cannot be massed because it is impossible to build enough UDC to accommodate an air group capable of landing at least a battalion. So for us it is not relevant.
        And the USMC has airborne landing gear and infantry and equipment.
        They have an urgent need for this, because they only do that someone is being pressed on the coast, and on a serious scale. And at the same time they have the means that provide such massive landing. Namely - AUGs which, before landing, turn the enemy’s defenses in the right area into minced meat, transport ships, which, after seizing the bridgehead, sharply increase the number of troops. In order to dream of such landing capabilities, you must first become the first economy in the world.
        1. +3
          23 November 2018 11: 57
          According to statistics, 17% of the world coast is available for the approach of a large landing ship, but for a tracked amphibious all-terrain vehicle - 40.
          Think about how many troops you need to block everything?
          1. +1
            23 November 2018 12: 26
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            Think about how many troops you need to block everything?

            Nobody will block everything. They will keep forces near the airborne dangerous sections and work out their quick deployment to each of these sections, plus conduct reconnaissance along the approaches of the landing forces. And only in case of detection of an amphibious assault will some movement and concentration of forces begin at possible landing sites.
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            According to statistics, 17% of the world coast is available for the approach of a large landing ship, but for a tracked amphibious all-terrain vehicle - 40.

            I know that. The Marines certainly need their own armor. And helicopters are needed. And an analogue of LCAC is needed. But we won’t be able to afford such a luxury as the United States ILC. The highly specialized tracked armored personnel carrier, such as their LVTP, will be so small-scale that it is cheaper to cast it in gold.
            It’s strange for me, of course, to see our marines on wheeled armored personnel carriers. They need something tracked and floating. From what I would give them the BMP-3F, and forget about the BTR-80 forever.
            1. +2
              23 November 2018 20: 14
              A highly specialized tracked BTR like their LVTP will be with us so small-scale that it is cheaper to cast it in gold.


              I am begging you. Even to ensure that the current states need to be equipped with at least 200 machines in the base case, and special options are needed - BREM, SPTRK, ZSU, etc. This is still the same for all fleets. Plus export.

              Plus you can cooperate with foreign firms, with the same Turks who have already made such a machine.
        2. +2
          23 November 2018 12: 33
          Quote: Alex_59
          If the enemy is equal in strength to us, then he is able to determine those sections of the coast from which we can inflict serious damage on him in the event of a landing.

          1943, the Germans were waiting for the landing near Novorossiysk. Did this knowledge help them? They made a landing in Tsemess Bay and made it possible for the landing party to expand the bridgehead and dig into the ground.
          Quote: Alex_59
          So that the equipment on them in case of danger took up places for defense.

          Time! The most important factor on which everything depends. The defending side needs time to conduct reconnaissance, determining whether it is an imitation or the main forces have landed, only then put forward reserves. The attacker has a head start in time and it all depends on the speed of the transfer of forces and means. Light infantry 400 km / h at Osprey, artillery and light armored vehicles 200 km / h at Stallions. This allows you to take a profitable foothold, and prepare to repel a counterattack or strike a warning strike.
          Quote: Alex_59
          but working out the ability to deploy quickly when a threat is detected is a sweet deal.

          The extension speed of the Tor / Shell shell (they are the fastest to climb) is 50-60 km / h. By the time they reach the desired milestone, the troops will already land and there will be a chance to run into an ambush.
          Quote: Alex_59
          our helicopter landing from the sea cannot be massed due to the inability to build enough UDC to accommodate an air group capable of landing at least a battalion

          It's not about our capabilities, but about the necessary ones.
          Quote: Alex_59
          In order to dream of such landing capabilities, you must first become the first economy in the world.

          If you are talking about the maximum configuration, then yes, "not a hat". But there are many countries nearby that you can keep on your nerves with balanced landing gear.
        3. +2
          24 November 2018 06: 14
          Alex, welcome. Speak correctly, but with one correction, if you allow.
          You have correctly noted the measures that will be taken by the likely enemy to prevent the landing. But why do we forget that the landing force is not a thing in itself, in isolation from the rest of the Armed Forces. Nobody will land on prepared positions. But even if there is no other way out, no one will arrange a landing on the enemy defense line without first weakening it. And this is not a matter for the marines (whose priority goal is to gain a foothold on the coast), this is a task for cruise missiles and aviation, which must ensure at least temporary air supremacy, making it possible for over-the-horizon landing of troops and airborne assault in the rear of the airborne forces. This is the only way to carry out the landing operation as a whole. Unfortunately, we are lagging behind probable opponents (or, nevertheless, "partners" I still cannot determine from the speeches of the country's leadership wassat ) not only by the number of all types of ships, but also by such critically important indicators of aircraft and cruise missiles, although in fairness for the sake of leveling this backlog it is nevertheless done more than for the fleet (though I’m not sure that these attempts will also be at least somewhat sufficient) .
          1. 0
            26 November 2018 16: 29
            Quote: Dante
            But even if there is no other way out, no one will arrange a landing on the line of enemy defense without first weakening it. And this is not a matter of marines (whose priority is to gain a foothold on the coast), this is a task for cruise missiles and aviation, which should provide at least temporary air supremacy, making possible over-the-air landing and airborne landing in the rear.

            I agree. But I believe that all this does not contradict the fact that the Navy has a ramp BDK with landing equipment at the water's edge. Because only they, in our natural and, which is especially important, economic conditions, make it possible to deploy a grouping of troops with heavy equipment (tanks, air defense systems, self-propelled guns) on the coast. If we could build 10-12 UDCs like Tarawa or Mistral, provide them with the same number of Austin-class DCDs, give them 2-3 landing craft like LCACs per hull, and include them in each brigade of the MP on the helicopter regiment, and to maintain all this economy in an exemplary condition - the question of the large landing craft would not be raised. Only here the smallest need is a different economy.
      2. 0
        23 November 2018 10: 59
        Quote: Puncher
        No enemy will have the strength and resources to defend the entire coast

        Why defend the entire coast? Modern detection tools will allow the enemy to know in advance the place of landing!
        1. +1
          23 November 2018 11: 57
          Will not allow.
          1. 0
            23 November 2018 12: 30
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            Will not allow.

            And who will prevent to find ???
            1. +3
              23 November 2018 13: 14
              Well, they know that ship attack groups are deployed along their coast and intelligence reports that landing ships have been noticed in some of them, which left the ports en masse a week ago.
              The ground workers report intensive reconnaissance actions along the coast.

              What's next?
              1. +1
                23 November 2018 13: 27
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                Well, they know

                Those. discover, still found?
                Quote: timokhin-aa
                What's next?

                And then at least there should be a strengthening of the aviation group, deployment of the OTRK, pulling up reserves and means of reinforcement to the area of ​​the proposed landing (there aren’t so many convenient places for landing, turn me over) - this is if fighting is not ongoing.
                And if the database is already in full swing, the enemy ship groups are destroyed all the way from the port to the landing zone!
                1. +2
                  23 November 2018 14: 42
                  there are not so many convenient places to land


                  C BDK is not much, yes.
                  1. 0
                    23 November 2018 14: 49
                    Quote: timokhin-aa
                    C BDK is not much, yes.

                    No difference! BDK, UDC, the principle is the same, only the distance from the coast is different!
                    1. +2
                      23 November 2018 16: 05
                      Approximately 17% of the world coastline is available for the BDK approach (approximately, I am writing from memory), for a tracked vehicle - around 40, for a helicopter - 100.

                      The density of troops in the defense should be on our division kilometers seventeen or nineteen, on the west to 25.

                      Next yourself.
                      1. +2
                        23 November 2018 16: 15
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        Approximately 17% of the world coastline is available for the BDK approach (approximately, from memory I write), for the tracked vehicle - about 40, for the helicopter - 100

                        If you want the landing party to not end on the same day that it started, then you will still start it somewhere near these 17% of the coastline available for the BDK. Well, or at least 40%, because landing where there is no suitable descent to the water only by helicopter and near it is the end. Well, it makes no sense to land on Cape Fiolent, well, no. It is necessary that nearby near kilometers in 20-30 there should still be something like this on the shore, where ships can approach the shore and go down to the water for vehicles.
                      2. +1
                        23 November 2018 19: 22
                        It is necessary to attack the enemy where his defense is weakest, and having achieved a breakthrough and his withdrawal together with the Airborne Forces, seize a bridgehead large enough so that there would not be a gentle coast, but some kind of port infrastructure. And there is already an army to deliver.

                        That is, if in general.

                        Therefore, the place to strike must be chosen on the basis of the reality of breaking the enemy’s defenses by the forces of the first echelon of the landing force.
                      3. 0
                        26 November 2018 16: 52
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        It is necessary to attack the enemy where his defense is the weakest

                        I agree, but within certain limits. It is necessary to attack the enemy where his defense is the weakest and there is a shore exit for heavy equipment nearby. Then that makes sense.
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        so that there would not be a gentle beach, but some kind of port infrastructure.
                        There is a high probability that the port infrastructure in the right area may be absent or very short, and if it is powerful enough (wide berth front, high throughput), then the enemy will fight for it with full dedication. It may cover such a port even before the creeps in our direction from our side. Those. it will have to be taken with heavy fights. In this regard, I see no reason why we should not leave the BDK in service, which just need a gentle descent to the water and do not need moorings at all. I also understand that if we had 2-3 UDC for each fleet, and each one had 2-3 LCAC in the docking chamber, then even without the BDK they would have thrown so many tanks per day on the shore that any little will not seem. But I do not believe that we will be able to build such a grouping, and most importantly, provide support forces (aircraft carriers, destroyers, minesweepers, coastal aviation, etc.) Well, I do not believe that we will master the series building program in the next 20-30 years in 12 UDC and pieces of 40 LCAC for them.
                      4. +1
                        24 November 2018 08: 30
                        Quote: timokhin-aa
                        Next yourself.

                        laughing Do you need to capture a piece of taiga or is it still a place suitable for landing the main landing forces? Not only is the place suitable, and even this place should not be far from the enemy’s transport infrastructure, so as not to cut through the clearings in the taiga and not rush through gully! Now we consider how many such places ???
                      5. 0
                        24 November 2018 14: 59
                        I need to capture a place from which the marines can take a bridgehead with a depth of approximately 15-20 km, and, possibly, together with the Airborne Forces.

                        And so that the shore allows there to at least somehow reduce the trucks to the water's edge, and on the other hand to fit at least a pontoon bridge or a lighter, or anything, from which you can unload ammunition and fuel.
                2. +1
                  23 November 2018 20: 15
                  I’m embarrassed to ask, are you aware of the depth of the zone of responsibility of the enemy’s aus? If near your coast there is at least some chance of not even destroying, but at least delaying or incapacitating, then during the transition the chances of this are almost zero, as well as directly tracking it for the entire duration of the journey. until the satellites learned to hover directly above the object, and any attempts to detect it in combat, that from the air, that from under the water will be doomed. Imagine that the aus moves in the direction of your coast, from its decks Drill and plane planes will take off replacing each other accompanied by a fighter link, they will be able to cut circles at a distance of 600 km from the aircraft. So the first and last thing you notice will be the carrier-based aircraft. The detection and tracking using the Premier League is the same song. Detection with the help of zgrls it can also be complicated by the actions of the enemy’s drg. Moreover, to track and eliminate them all is not physically possible.
                  1. +1
                    24 November 2018 08: 39
                    Quote: Korax71
                    I’m embarrassed to ask, are you aware of the depth of the zone of responsibility of the opponent’s aus?

                    Let's say not aus but AUG, but still in the know. I had a chance to participate in two training landings, in the first case the "blue" drove the landing order of the "red" far to the approach to the Opuk training ground, in the second case the order of the "blue" was pretty battered by the aviation and diesel-electric submarines of the "blue" also on the transition. Moreover, there was no shortage of PLO and air defense ships in the order of both "red" and "blue" ships, the orders were covered by fighter aircraft, and the Be-12 was fun over the ships for days !!!
                    1. 0
                      24 November 2018 15: 00
                      That is why, at first, domination of the sea is achieved, and then amphibious assault forces land.
                  2. 0
                    24 November 2018 09: 29
                    Quote: Korax71
                    I’m embarrassed to ask, are you aware of the depth of the zone of responsibility of the enemy’s aus? If near your coast there is at least some chance of not even destroying, but at least delaying or incapacitating, then during the transition the chances of this are almost zero, as well as directly tracking it for the entire duration of the journey. until the satellites learned to hover directly above the object, and any attempts to detect it in combat, that from the air, that from under the water will be doomed. Imagine that the aus moves in the direction of your coast, from its decks Drill and plane planes will take off in succession accompanied by a fighter link, they will be able to cut circles at a distance of 600 km from the aircraft. So the first and last thing you notice will be the carrier-based aircraft. The detection and tracking using the Premier League is the same song. Detection using zgrls can also be hindered by the actions of the enemy drg. Moreover, to track and eliminate them all is not physically possible.

                    I'm embarrassed to ask, what kind of enemy is he who will trample on us with such a force that you described? Somehow one answer suggests itself to the NATO bloc .. And how do we plan to fight them? So your scenario is fantastic, because if it is used, toys of a completely different caliber will be used and everyone will be somehow not up to the landings on the coast. About the DRG in the threatened period, they made a lot of fun .. From our side, this scenario is even more fantastic because the forces and means will need five times more than our "partners" today ..
                    That’s why this doesn’t make sense in all these stray MP / Airborne forces, for the former it is better to spend money on RO-RO ships, and for the latter on turntables and transport aircraft ..
          2. -2
            23 November 2018 19: 55
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            Will not allow.

            ========
            Can you justify ???? bully
        2. 0
          1 December 2018 16: 09
          Detectors may or may not. But by themselves, they will not do anything to anyone. So it’s strange to hope for them as a panacea.
    3. 0
      1 December 2018 15: 53
      It is better to have additional capabilities for landing, planting ammunition and transporting the wounded than not to have it. A helicopter will never be superfluous. Moreover, the speed of the helicopter release exceeds everything else.
  4. Ber
    -1
    23 November 2018 08: 04
    The article is good, the author touched on relevant topics.
    5. Also preferred means of fire support of the landing force at the stage of approaching the water's edge, coming ashore and attacking the first echelon of enemy troops defending the coast are combat aircraft and helicopters.
    6. The first wave of the assault force should have tanks, demining and lashing vehicles.


    We have working prototypes ideally suited for high-speed mine clearance of the coastal strip, from which you can make an analog of the Uranus-6 robot


    Also, everything new is a well-forgotten old one, namely mounting on an armored boat of the BM-21 Grad installation for carrying out river landings, sweeping the coast in the area of ​​sea landing.



    Our engineers are easily able to design a Sea-based Grad installation, but what makes the hail everyone knows the squares of scorched earth. Armored boats theoretically should withstand the hit of 152 mm HEs.
    Why aluminum armor is ideal because it is more land-resistant, and to facilitate it can be cast in the form of bee honeycombs, for example, the thickness of 10-12 mm the center of the honeycomb, plus the border of the honeycomb thickness ?? - about 20-25 mm and a width of 5- 6 mm, in general, our engineers can calculate and design anything.
    Boats are naturally suitable only for Russia with its maritime and river borders.
    1. +4
      23 November 2018 08: 19
      Armored boats are a means of warfare either on rivers or in the coastal zone. To also work at sea, you need a bigger ship, with good seaworthiness.
      And minesweep-seekers should do mine yet.
      1. Ber
        0
        23 November 2018 08: 42
        Honestly HZ, but in my opinion the loss of two three boats during the landing, (because after their shelling the shooter will be covered) not as fatal as the loss of a BDK or another vessel, as in the British.
        1. +3
          23 November 2018 09: 06
          And there is. But even less fatal is the loss of a pair of armored personnel carriers,
      2. -2
        23 November 2018 08: 52
        the UDC concept is suitable for landing in a colony with a knowingly weak enemy and very far away. Russia does not need them. Timokhin cannot deny that the platoon delivery of helicopters and small means from the dock chamber is pointless. But to whitewash the frozen-born concept, he came up with a massive exit beyond the horizon on an armored personnel carrier .... a born crawl couldn’t really swim if Timokhin sailed from Sochi’s beach at least in summer 400 meters, I would understand that there is always excitement and seaworthiness of the armored personnel carrier, and the armored personnel carrier must travel dozens of kilometers across the water because of the horizon? Another comparison was touched by the landing from helicopters and airplanes, is it really not known that planes as a whole are more difficult to shoot down than a helicopter shot down almost from AKM? Speaking of supporting the amphibious assault from the air, that is, for this Airborne Forces, by the way, a whole kind of troops is very numerous. And to evacuate the landing force by helicopters .... that is, the landing force in a difficult situation is firing at it and here the turntables, unbreakable, flew in and took away an entire army * .... there isn’t just a reconnaissance group. It’s just that without UDC, the topic seemed uninteresting to Timokhin; what to write about was listed by the BDK, MDK, and that’s all. And how much water can be poured about them, and to collect a whole bunch of comments.
        1. +3
          23 November 2018 09: 01
          Timokhin cannot deny that the launching delivery of helicopters and small means from the dock chamber is meaningless.


          We got a helicopter, but in general, the same amer, UDC, in the first wave, landed about 600 people on armor, with 4 tanks and at least six assault helicopter support.

          And it is possible without armor immediately reinforced DSB to lift into the air, for example, they have turntables on it and the ships will be enough.

          Where do you get this crazy nonsense about squad deliveries? Looked at the French? So this is a bad example, unfit.

          The comparison of landing from helicopters and airplanes still touched me, is it really not known that planes in general are more difficult to shoot down than a helicopter shot down almost from AKM?


          Another example of insane nonsense. Who told you such nonsense? The helicopter goes to 20-30 meters in height, the An-26 is not lower than the 200. Do you even have any idea about the subject under discussion? Or did you get your education in patriotic blogs?

          And to evacuate the troops by helicopters .... that is, the troops in a heavy station fired at him, and then the whirlwinds of the invincible flew in and took the whole army * .... there is no only a reconnaissance group


          In Afghanistan and more exported, if that. Including from under fire.

          In short - in sad with such ideas.

          Just without the UDC, the topic seemed uninteresting to Timokhin, what the BDK, the MDC, and that's all, were to write about. And how much water can be poured on the udk about them, and collect a whole bunch of comments.


          Tell the Britts, they did it your way in the Falklands, and lost two of the five ships. In the absence of enemy soldiers on the shore.

          But reality is not a decree to you, of course.
          1. Ber
            0
            23 November 2018 09: 11
            good
            And it is possible without armor immediately reinforced DSB to lift into the air, for example, they have turntables on it and the ships will be enough.


            Including specially trained guys to disable GPS base stations.
            Only they are thrown very much for earlier ....


            After which the reserves will be quite outraged laughing we are lost.
            1. +2
              23 November 2018 09: 15
              Reserves and the map with a compass can go to the goal. And then there are ground-based INS, which can be easily installed in team machines.
              1. Ber
                0
                23 November 2018 09: 17
                Reserves and on the map with a compass I can go to the goal.


                They are very bad with this, mattress EG, Alas. maybe they’ll come out for a long time, loss of time will be fatalbut there is an even worse situation that may not really come out.
                Reserves are always poorly trained compared to the vanguard.
                1. 0
                  23 November 2018 09: 22
                  This is fixable.
            2. 0
              23 November 2018 13: 16
              Including specially trained guys to disable GPS base stations.

              It will not give anything. These stations do not provide positioning, but eliminate the accumulating error in the calculation of satellite ephemeris.
              It matters only for ammunition, and even then with a large flow of time, and if all correction stations are disabled, do you know where they are?
              1. Ber
                0
                23 November 2018 16: 50
                It will not give anything.

                Even as it will, and you yourself wrote it.
                and eliminating the accumulating error in calculating the ephemeris of satellites.


                Think about the cumulative errors for the military? Day, week ????
                Until the station is restored. For the navigator, it doesn’t matter.
                1. +4
                  23 November 2018 19: 10
                  Quote: Ber
                  Think about the cumulative errors for the military? Day, week ????

                  Correction of GPS or GLONASS satellites for these ground-based benchmarks is needed once every six months, and then we are talking about perfectionism, because and without this, a couple of years the satellite constellation provides acceptable accuracy.
                  1. Ber
                    0
                    23 November 2018 23: 11
                    without this, a couple of years the satellite constellation provides acceptable accuracy.

                    Thanks Alexey, interesting, I read in my free time.
          2. Ber
            +1
            23 November 2018 09: 13
            The helicopter goes at 20-30 meters in height, the An-26 is not lower than 200.


            A training landing of 1200 meters, a combat landing below 600 meters, on the D-6, I don’t know now.
            1. +1
              23 November 2018 09: 22
              I judge by my parachute experience - the usual conscript in theory does not jump from low altitudes, but if I really want to, I can do it with meters from the 200, with minimal preparation. D-6 allows you to do this.

              I personally observed special people jumping on the same D-6 with 150. But this is no longer available to the conscript, of course.

              As for the standard 600, then if there is at least minimal resistance, you should forget about it. the Americans on Gus-Green were going to jump from 400, but having lost their surprise, they left for 150, so that three or four seconds after they left, they were already kicking their feet into the ground. Height is evil.
              1. Ber
                +1
                23 November 2018 09: 24
                I judge by my parachute experience - in theory, an ordinary conscript does not jump from low altitudes,

                Yes it is.
                We jumped from 1200 meters, but the instructor for the VDP said that the battle was 600 meters. request

                Height is evil.


                Yeah, and when you have time to cut the bayonet with a knife, the slings of the main one, and help the spare time with the handles at the speed of the squirrel in the wheel ???
                1. +3
                  23 November 2018 10: 20
                  Lay the main correctly and there will be no need to cut the slings, there are no miracles, everything is in your hands and the parachute will fail too. But when my friend fell out of the An-2 for the first time at an altitude of one hundred meters and after a few seconds stood on the ground, I had a faberge to my throat, I didn’t even have time to swear.
                  1. +3
                    23 November 2018 11: 59
                    And there are more convergence, for example.
                    1. Ber
                      +2
                      23 November 2018 17: 01
                      good The fact is, in the air, audibility is through a loudspeaker, so we have two sailors surviving before, two D-6s, since the jokers are able to plan closer to chat, so it’s interesting, exactly 150 meters came converging, both of them fell, only bruises fell, so major ........... in three story Russian. laughing spat .... would ... laughing . crashed for sure.
                      Both are alive.

                      There is also an automaton that doesn’t work (mote, etc.), the ring must be pulled by hand, it panicked a little after opening and a dangerous approach, this is a fact, generally a bunch, the officers know what and how, but we request lucky no luck, although practiced.
                  2. 0
                    23 November 2018 12: 26
                    Somewhere in 2,5 seconds.
                    I saw a bag so overthrown. And people with 150. But they were special people.
                    1. +1
                      23 November 2018 12: 43
                      Stop telling tales, ordinary men like you and me, yes, experienced paratroopers, but nothing more. Just like we drink vodka, they go, no, they went to women and so on and so forth. But the fact that before that they trained above the clouds is a fact. It was necessary to calculate everything exactly on the stopwatch, so as not to get into the two hundredth. And of course, no reserves, it only interferes, but the point is zero. This is the day of aviation, we did a show in the city in the nineties. And now everything, there is nothing, one plane and that one needs to be driven in for repair, and finances were yok. So it remains to recall the past, sometimes to drink vodka, but to bury those who came the deadline, probably already more than half of the flying club were buried. Recently I met a namesake, a former pilot from Aeroflot, already 39 people from his squadron were taken, and you saw it. We lived it, for us aviation was EVERYTHING.
                      1. +1
                        23 November 2018 13: 17
                        Just like we drink vodka, go, no, go around the women and so on and so forth.

                        Well, I do not know much about the people who have gone so much hot for such an age, then changed their profile to antiterror, well, thousands of jumps yes ...
                        It was all recently by the way, four years ago, the guys are not old at all, and I am not an old man.
                        Although the women stopped running, it was embarrassing somehow, a serious family man, and I’ll start collecting female students)))
                      2. +1
                        23 November 2018 16: 20
                        We are all who have lived, 60 and above. And the first was buried at 46, heart. Sucks combine aerobatics on the Yak and evening gatherings.
                      3. Ber
                        +1
                        23 November 2018 17: 06
                        We are all who have lived, 60 and above. And the first was buried at 46, heart. Sucks combine aerobatics on the Yak and evening gatherings.


                        laughing Yura, what are you talking about? What aerobatics on Yak at marines ??? laughing
                        At 46, when at 45 retirement. ??? laughing
                        Here you are stuck and suffered Ostap laughing
                      4. -1
                        23 November 2018 17: 09
                        Though I have a word about the marines, I’m talking about paratroopers and pilots. You have to have a snack, dear. I wrote about the flying club, so stomp to school and learn to read. fool
                      5. Ber
                        +2
                        23 November 2018 17: 16
                        I wrote about the flying club, so stomp to school and learn to read.


                        Yura, you do not have a single jump, you have never jumped from a parachute, not once.
                        Let's write on which parachutes you jumped laughing
                        How to collect the main parachute .. laughing
                        How to collect a reserve parachute .... laughing
                        I answer now. I will catch you in public ten times a lie.

                        Time went fighter ....... for memory and not reading from the network ..
                      6. -2
                        23 November 2018 17: 18
                        Snot wipe the boy first.
                      7. Ber
                        0
                        23 November 2018 23: 16
                        Snot wipe the boy first.


                        You do not leave the answer a liar laughing
                        Prove that you had enough time to read tales on the network.

                        Question one, how and when a reserve parachute is laid laughing

                        Snot for the answer does not roll.

                        Question of the second Jura did you serve in the army, warrior?

                        you’ll call your lover a boy
                        laughing

                        Here on the forum all the men, some young, some elderly.
                      8. Ber
                        +1
                        23 November 2018 17: 10
                        Stop telling tales, ordinary men like you and me, yes, experienced paratroopers, but nothing more.


                        Yura the storyteller is alone here and it's you.
                        I answer you have never jumped from a parachute, even from the training D-5.
                        Once again I answer you do not have a single jump.
                        Alexander Timokhin, there is also the fact that he writes the truth, this is evident in each of his words.
                        And you Jura in every word is visible nonsense.
                  3. The comment was deleted.
                    1. -1
                      23 November 2018 17: 06
                      I agree, everything happens in the air. Above, I talked about a friend jumping from a hundred meters, but in the nineties, and in the eighties he hopped on a PO-9 mattress and the reef didn’t disperse, it works shorter than half the dome, and half hangs in the wind, instead of unhooking, he threw the spare tire and she also twisted, in short, he made a good adherence, they thought the khan was broken, he slammed his head, shook it, and even the little things, he spent 4 months on sick leave. Now he sometimes walks with badik, old injuries affect him.
                    2. +1
                      23 November 2018 19: 26
                      It can happen even without the human factor, and that’s not lucky. And the overlap, and the downward flow - whatever.

                      Regardless of the person.

                      Well, the fire from the ground is still
                      1. +1
                        24 November 2018 09: 33
                        Alexander my friend laughing Ber (Yar) (for moderator) love ) knocked again, and sent to the ban for 10 days, that is, the team of Yura tried to knock Mlyn.

                        Be careful about this .......... in a holey hat with the letter C.
                        In general, in order.

                        1.
                        Ros 56 (Yuri) I agree, everything happens in the air. I talked about drugan above, jumping from a hundred meters

                        Attention people 100 meters.

                        2.
                        he hopped on a PO-9 mattress and the reef didn’t part, shorter than half the dome works, and half hangs in the wind instead of unhooking, he threw away the reserve

                        He threw the attention of the people to the reserve.
                        laughing a spare tire on a PO-9 mattress, and probably on this mattress his friend got the first hole laughing laughing There are actually holes in the dome laughing laughing

                        WELL SO THERE IS NOT A NONE IN THE WORLD OF A MAN WHO WOULD JUMP FROM 100 METERS AND TAKE A START UP. !!!!!!!!

                        laughing laughing laughing It is not possible to use a reserve parachute from either 100 meters or 300 meters

                        Everyone jumps on one on the main without reserve.

                        3.
                        he threw out the spare tire and it also twisted, in short it was well attached, they thought the khan broke down, he killed his head, he shook it, well, by the little things, he spent 4 months on sick leave

                        It’s even scary to write about this about injuries ....... wassat clever laughing
                        On them on the mattress it’s called work injury. laughing

                        The big request of the Marine Corps to the Airborne Forces, lads THIS IS THIS am so you can’t leave on the forum.
                      2. 0
                        24 November 2018 09: 53
                        good
                        And the overlap, and the downward flow - anything.


                        I had something like overlap on the third jump. Likely when the slings were stacked then with a fork shredded the honeycomb with a twist of the wrist without noticing itand when opening the dome I don’t remember how much it was very fast to half or a quarter, the lines were twisted, in general I was spinning decently along its axis how many revolutions in one and then in the other I don’t remember the same. In general, it looks like an overlap sling. Since then, I kept the plug straight laughing and trembling hands slowly and carefully laughing stuffed slings into a honeycomb after a hundredth.
                2. 0
                  23 November 2018 11: 59
                  In a combat situation, just put it later in the car with a sign 200 Cargo. When found after the fight. One life means nothing in such matters. Yes, and do not take a reserve for low-altitude jumping.
        2. -2
          23 November 2018 09: 07
          the UDC concept is suitable for landing in a colony with a knowingly weak enemy and very far away. Russia does not need them. Timokhin cannot deny that the platoon delivery of helicopters and small means from the dock chamber is pointless. But to whitewash the frozen-born concept, he came up with a massive exit beyond the horizon on an armored personnel carrier .... a born crawl couldn’t really swim if Timokhin sailed from Sochi’s beach at least in summer 400 meters, I would understand that there is always excitement and seaworthiness of armored personnel carriers, and armored personnel carriers must pass dozens of kilometers across the water because of the horizon? Then a cistern with diesel fuel should be waiting for them on the shore. Another comparison was touched by the landing from helicopters and airplanes, is it really not known that planes as a whole are more difficult to shoot down than a helicopter shot down almost from AKM? Speaking of supporting the amphibious assault from the air, that is, for this Airborne Forces, by the way, a whole kind of troops is very numerous. And to evacuate the landing force by helicopters .... that is, the landing force in a difficult situation is firing at it and here the turntables, unshakable ones, flew in and took away an entire army * .... there wasn’t just a reconnaissance group. It’s just that without UDC, the topic seemed uninteresting to Timokhin; what to write about was listed by the BDK, MDK, and that’s all. And how much water can be poured about them, and to collect a whole bunch of comments. For this, Timozhin did not consider it a royal matter to mention the modern and very promising airborne missile defense missile systems, that is the future of landing ships on the seas.
          1. +2
            23 November 2018 09: 23
            No need to spam comments, repeating the same text. I answered you above.
        3. +2
          23 November 2018 20: 19
          Take an interest in the dimensions of the docking chamber of the udk vasp. You will be unpleasantly surprised especially about the platoon landing.
      3. 0
        23 November 2018 20: 05
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        And minesweep-seekers should do mine yet.

        =========
        And who will let them to the landing site ???? Just??
        Would you "let" ???
    2. 0
      1 December 2018 16: 10
      There will never be an armored boat against a 152 mm HE shell. Drowning. And that would have been done long ago.
  5. 0
    23 November 2018 09: 06
    There are a lot of beeches, there is little sense. Reasoning at the level of the last war. There will be no such war, forget it. What is the need to land troops with shooting and losses, when you can drop there, roughly speaking, a dozen Caliber or something else. Enough men not to smell tobacco.
    1. +4
      23 November 2018 09: 16
      A dozen calibers is a dozen sheds destroyed. And it is necessary, for example, to unblock Transnistria. How to do it with Caliber?
      1. Ber
        0
        23 November 2018 09: 20
        good
        A dozen calibers is a dozen sheds destroyed. And it is necessary, for example, to unblock Transnistria. How to do it with Caliber?


        This is exactly what the South-90 worked out in the USSR drinks
      2. +1
        23 November 2018 10: 13
        I would like to see the landing from the BDK in Transnistria.
        1. +2
          23 November 2018 12: 00
          On the Black Sea coast. And then come on the ground. Faster than with the Donetsk region to cut, and resistance is less at times.
          1. -1
            23 November 2018 18: 13
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            On the Black Sea coast. And then come on the ground. Faster than with the Donetsk region to cut, and resistance is less at times.
            What nonsense, and not easier to deliver by airborne forces, you imagine the movement of the Marine Corps through the estuary.
            1. +2
              23 November 2018 19: 31
              The Marines have the ability to "take with them" tanks, for example. There are normal armored vehicles. The Airborne Forces is a means of developing success, with regiments of 900 people each. and cans-BMD should be put into battle when there is already a breakthrough and the enemy's defense has collapsed.
              MP-assault troops, their task is to break the front edge, there and other states and technology more serious.
              1. 0
                24 November 2018 11: 44
                yes the states other the whole battalion to the fleet
          2. 0
            23 November 2018 20: 09
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            On the Black Sea coast. And then come on the ground. Faster than with the Donetsk region to cut, and resistance is less at times.

            ========
            You, my dear, have forgotten one "tiny" nuance .... The Pridnestrovian Republic - DOES NOT HAVE AN EXCESS TO THE SEA !!!! fool
        2. Ber
          +1
          23 November 2018 17: 20
          I would like to see the landing from the BDK in Transnistria.


          Yura was asked not to spam you.

          South-90 landing near Ishmael DShB MP Black Sea Fleet on the An-26, bridgehead.
          BDK on the coast, take a Yandex map and watch.

          Another warrior Mlyn, Jura did you even serve in the army?
      3. -1
        23 November 2018 20: 07
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        A dozen calibers is a dozen sheds destroyed. And it is necessary, for example, to unblock Transnistria. How to do it with Caliber?

        ========
        You really expect that they will explain to you right now - HOW ????
  6. The comment was deleted.
  7. +3
    23 November 2018 09: 35
    Navy is not able to carry out large-scale landing operations

    The article is good, but not without a flaw. Not only Mistrals and the like are the case. Even if we had four Mistrals as planned, all the same "the Navy is not able to carry out large-scale landing operations."
    The author forgets that the landing except to disembark need to be protected from the air and provided from shells and fuel, ending with food and medicine. For this we need supply ships which we did not have and do not have.
    And USMC USA has them. For example, the USNS Montford Point, which is the point of supply of the landing with all necessary equipment and weapons.


    Well, aircraft carriers, of course ...
    1. +2
      23 November 2018 12: 22
      The author forgets that the landing except to disembark need to be protected from the air and provided from shells and fuel, ending with food and medicine. For this we need supply ships which we did not have and do not have.


      The article is about it, carefully, please.
  8. +7
    23 November 2018 09: 59
    Mantra lovers

    Let's probably start with why and where the Russian Navy will land?
    The author refers to the history of the MP Navy of the USSR, well, and with the permission of the author, I will return to those distant times. The Soviet doctrine on the use of MP assumed the capture of the Danish Straits by the forces of the 336 ogbrmp and the 3 army on the western theater of operations, and the capture of the Black Sea Straits by the 17 ogbrmp and parts of the 810 army corps on the Black Sea theater of operations. Did the Soviet landing ships satisfy these operations? Quite! Did the Soviet Navy need UDC? What for? GSVG, SVG and YuVG airfields were located near the landing zones, the ports of the GDR, Poland and NRB fully provided the logistics of the expeditionary forces! Although for local operations somewhere in Africa (Mogadishu, November 32), the UDC could come in handy ... and that is unlikely!
    And so, my dear author, where and why the Russian Navy will land? Having decided on these questions, you will understand what landing ships you need !!!
    1. +1
      23 November 2018 12: 02
      Quote: Serg65
      And so, my dear author, where and why the Russian Navy will land? Having decided on these questions, you will understand what landing ships you need !!!

      This is the most important question! good What places are so fabulous? And how carefully to study the question so immediately and it becomes clear there are NO such places on the planet earth .. Consequently, why all these troubles?
    2. +2
      23 November 2018 12: 18
      Would you believe in a Syrian operation at 2010? In the power of the return of the Crimea? We are in a situation of slowly dismantling the world order. Another fifteen years, and the world will be a bunch of new alliances, hot spots, etc.

      Landing - a form of battle. Where theoretically it can be applied in advance can be said only in a stable time. Now, during the chaos, such a need can happen literally anywhere and at any time.
      In Libya, in Ukraine, in Hokkaido - choose yourself. The future is absolutely unpredictable right now.
      1. +3
        23 November 2018 12: 50
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Would you believe in a Syrian operation at 2010?

        The use of the BDK in the Syrian operation is nonsense! And this nonsense from hopelessness is by no means connected with the BDK, but with the absence of Ro-Ro type transport vessels!
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        In the power return of the Crimea?

        the same garbage!
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        Landing - a form of battle

        I agree, but this form of battle depends not only on the presence of MP and landing ships, so this form of battle is the most difficult to execute! Let’s say you managed to incinerate the entire landing zone, to land the marines .... the second and third waves of the landing are behind the marines and they are several times larger than the first wave, i.e. the outfit of ships will be large, and the factor of surprise has already been lost and the enemy will throw all his strength into the destruction of transport caravans! After all, you are going to fight with a developed state, aren't you?
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        In Libya, Ukraine, Hokkaido

        The first two will not even be disassembled .... Hokaido !!! Start the landing operation!
        1. +1
          23 November 2018 13: 20
          Well, you're a humorist, my dear. First, the enemy must break down the forces that can destroy the caravans, and then land the landings.
          It's like with a parachute assault - first, at least local air supremacy is necessary, only later ...
          1. +2
            23 November 2018 13: 36
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            First, the enemy must break the forces with which it is possible to destroy caravans, and then land troops.

            Well, a comedian you are not less than mine! You can break your strength suddenly and not for long, then the enemy will come to his senses and will break you!
            Have you at least seen a landing force landing?
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            It's like with a parachute landing

            Do you naively think that in a future global war there will be an opportunity to land a parachute landing?
            So how about your landing on Hokaydo ???
            1. +2
              23 November 2018 14: 50
              Do you naively think that in a future global war there will be an opportunity to land a parachute landing?
              So how about your landing on Hokaydo ???


              I naively think that this can not be excluded.
  9. 0
    23 November 2018 10: 35
    Have the Bison already written off everything?
    1. +1
      23 November 2018 12: 15
      Useless ship
  10. +1
    23 November 2018 11: 07
    “Currently, the Russian Federation has a well-trained and motivated marines.” Complete nonsense. Even in terms of the number of marines of the Russian Federation (15-20 thousand people) it lags behind the United States by an order of magnitude! In the United States, their number is 200-250 thousand! Not to mention combat and practical training.
    1. 0
      23 November 2018 11: 10
      The Russian analogue of the American Marine Corps is the Airborne Forces.

      Which Shoigu plans to buy tanks and aircraft laughing
      1. -1
        23 November 2018 20: 28
        They are not. There is no amphibious landing training. Well, and so far they are not able to reach the amphibious forces in terms of armament and military equipment. Our airborne assault is an analogue of the 18th airborne corps and for tasks and armaments.
        1. 0
          25 November 2018 12: 53
          Russian Airborne Forces are landing from the air, and not from the sea (like the technologically backward United States Naval Forces) - to hell with them naval training? laughing
    2. +5
      23 November 2018 11: 28
      Quote: Lena363
      Even in terms of the number of marines of the Russian Federation (15-20 thousand people) it is an order of magnitude behind the USA!

      Here explain to me, the old collective farmer, why the Russian Federation have MP in size equal to the US MP ??? What for?
      1. +5
        23 November 2018 12: 15
        There is no need. According to the brigade of the fleet, and the Caspian as a reserve to use where it is planned zaruba.

        And in the US, the marines are not really marines at all, but the United States Marine Corps. And there are more than one aircraft in it than in many air forces. It is not infantry in general (although there is infantry in it).
    3. +2
      23 November 2018 12: 21
      As one experienced person said - God forbid you get hit by the DSB.)))) Americans are cool, of course, but we should not think about ours like this. Few people can SUCH even just survive, believe me.

      Regarding the number - we and they have fundamentally different troops, and we have no reason to inflate the marines. It lacks the available states.
  11. +2
    23 November 2018 13: 26
    the author did not adequately cover one nuance — without air support, no landing force against a serious enemy will last long — and the ships will melt and kill the landing force.
    Cubans can tell if someone does not believe.
    And here the question comes up in aviation, both for direct strike support and for air defense at the time of landing, at least for both landing and ships.
    It’s good for the Americans, they have aircraft carriers, but for others what to do?
    Now the world is spreading fashion on UDC with some aviation capabilities - the Spanish Juan Carlos is a typical example.
    Two such UDCs — one will provide an airborne landing, the second in the aviation version — strike support and air defense.
    And further, as the bridgehead expands, other ships can already land.
    But for this you need to start with the VTOL - without it, the whole concept does not make sense.
    1. +3
      23 November 2018 14: 52
      Here it was necessary to clarify the following to me.

      In case of war with neighboring countries or not very far from the Russian Federation, or on our territory, air support will be provided by coastal aviation.
      In the event of a war with some Bantustan, aviation will not need much, for example, Kuzi will suffice.

      And we should not go into the overseas wars with a strong opponent. Until.

      VTOL and UDC is too far away to discuss it. In principle, I am preparing a continuation of this article, there will be something there.
      1. -1
        24 November 2018 13: 01
        and with Kuzi planes in a combat situation just know how to fly? and then, you know, somehow it’ll turn out badly - the landing has landed, but there is no air support.
        And kill the entire landing and melt a dozen old Phantoms of Bantustan ....
        1. 0
          24 November 2018 15: 25
          This is a training issue.
    2. 0
      23 November 2018 18: 19
      udk is not able to create aviation support, for this we need an air base with many diverse and attack aircraft, supply of kurosin, ammunition, and replenishment of the railway line
      1. +3
        23 November 2018 19: 28
        Or transport weapons and a tanker with kerosene. Receiving cargo and fuel on the go is never a problem.
        1. 0
          24 November 2018 11: 47
          weapons transport does not provide mass sorties of planes and helicopters of all kinds to suppress the resistance of Americans
          1. -1
            24 November 2018 13: 05
            direct support airborne assault does not need mass sorties.
            their task - the landing party came across a resistance node or found a supply of enemy reserves from the drone - they called for support and a couple of planes in five to ten minutes will solve the point problem.
            In air defense - for an operational reserve, in the event of a massive attempt to attack a landing, support helicopters or ships, take off and force the enemy to leave low altitudes and become prey to air defense systems.
          2. 0
            24 November 2018 14: 35
            Quote: vladimir1155
            armament transport does not provide mass departures of aircraft and helicopters

            What are you talking about? TV is designed to deliver ammunition to ships located far from bases.
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            Receiving cargo and fuel on the go is never a problem
  12. 0
    23 November 2018 19: 33
    Author:
    Alexander Timokhin
    The Great Patriotic War and the war with Japan gave both the navy and the country a very important lesson. It consists of the following: landing from the sea, landed at the right time in the right place, has an effect on the enemy, disproportionately large in comparison with its strength.

    Without going into details, I would like to know from the author if he can give at least one example of the alleged REAL amphibious landing, which would be possible in the modern world for the Russian armed forces. If possible, then at least identify the theater of war and the likely enemy, against whom we could use naval landing, of course from the point of view of the appropriateness of such naval operations.
    Until this is formulated, the whole conversation about amphibious landing and the use of landing ships from the point of view of military professionals will look like an empty chatter.
    1. 0
      23 November 2018 19: 58
      Ukraine, Libya. In the case of hacks with the Japanese - beat back the Kurils, if all goes well then the north of Hokaydo.
      1. 0
        23 November 2018 20: 07
        Quote: timokhin-aa

        Ukraine, Libya.

        Ukraine - VKS and SV will do without any fleet. But this will not happen, because none of our politicians will dare to attack Ukraine until the Svidomo themselves attack Russia.
        Libya - what have we forgotten to land there? Maybe Syria is not enough for you?
        Well, what are our interests in Libya - can you name?
        Quote: timokhin-aa
        In the case of a slaughter with the Japanese - to beat back the Kuril Islands,

        They are allies of the United States, which means they will have to fight only with the help of nuclear weapons with two countries. Why should someone land, if you can use tactical nuclear weapons against enemy territory - they still remember Hiroshima, which means they know what awaits them.
        More options will be?
        1. 0
          24 November 2018 11: 53
          He has no other options, so the landing of the Russian Federation can only be tactical, in close proximity to the actions of ground forces and front-line aviation, that is, they are not needed and close to the UDK, and the BDK is not very especially on the seas, the future belongs to small landing ships on air cavern.
          1. 0
            24 November 2018 15: 18
            The future, as well as the present, requires landing the first wave of landing on shore without entering ANYONE from ships into the zone of action of coastal weapons of ground forces.
            1. 0
              24 November 2018 19: 31
              Quote: timokhin-aa
              The future, as well as the present, requires landing the first wave of landing on shore without entering ANYONE from ships into the zone of action of coastal weapons of ground forces.

              All landing ships will be destroyed before they even come to the shore of our potential enemy. Resign yourself to this and stop fantasizing in the spirit of the battles of World War II.
              1. -1
                24 November 2018 21: 23
                And you stop driving, no one will drop the landing party for slaughter, at first all flying toys will break the enemies, and only then ...

                Or there will be no landing.
                1. 0
                  25 November 2018 10: 03
                  Quote: timokhin-aa
                  And you stop driving, no one will drop the landing party for slaughter, at first all flying toys will break the enemies, and only then ...

                  Then you suggest to land on the infected and uninhabited land? For what purposes - can you intelligibly explain?
                  1. 0
                    25 November 2018 19: 54
                    Why immediately infected? In Dnepropetrovsk, only the nameless heroes of the ATO were buried in the 2015 year with 7000 numbers and uphill.
                    And there were still identified.
                    And this is despite the fact that the opposing side was banned from using aviation and generally camouflaged it under local rebels, and despite the fact that the light warriors had 3-5 multiple superiority in people, and in some places absolute armored vehicles.

                    And nothing, we did without an atom, with a loss ratio of about 1: 700 (I admit that this was not the case everywhere). At least my future "colleagues" in the shop had it that way. First time...

                    And you are immediately "infected". Do not juggle.
                    1. 0
                      26 November 2018 12: 40
                      Quote: timokhin-aa
                      Why immediately infected? In Dnepropetrovsk, only the nameless heroes of the ATO were buried in the 2015 year with 7000 numbers and uphill.

                      Russia did not enter the war with Ukraine, and even if it did, no naval landings were required.
                      Quote: timokhin-aa
                      And you are immediately "infected". Do not juggle.

                      Are you going to fight with conventional weapons with NATO or China? Do not make me laugh...
      2. -1
        24 November 2018 12: 48
        - beat back the Kuril Islands-

        Imagine the first-wave landing battalion - the Marines have served for six months. And the same paratroopers are motorized riflemen who have served for six months. It is unlikely that anyone will envy their platoon and mouth commanders. Yes, and the battalion’s command.
        1. 0
          24 November 2018 15: 22
          Well, in one contiguous state where lovers live in pots on their heads and shoot cannons at their own civilians, they have somehow drawn paratroopers and tankers who have served for half a year.

          One of their mouthpieces they went to look for, who is shooting at our customs point, and even found ... And my future colleague in the shop served there.

          So, in three months of battles, lop-ears shot real hecatomos from the warriors of light and goodness there, having lost only three people by mistake from one of the company officers.
          Do not underestimate our fighters))))).

          I have concerns about the transfer of troops for such an operation, I have concerns about whether the VKS can hold air supremacy while it is in progress, but if black berets get there, then it’s not them who will cry into the vest.

          This I tell you as a doctor.)))
          1. 0
            24 November 2018 19: 55
            Quote: timokhin-aa
            Well, in one contiguous state where lovers live in pots on their heads and shoot cannons at their own civilians, they have somehow drawn paratroopers and tankers who have served for half a year.

            Imagine a more prosaic version - several Tu-160s with full ammunition in non-nuclear equipment at the same time strike at the capital of one even non-adjacent state without entering the air defense zone for the previously outlined goals of the city’s infrastructure. What will you be able to imagine next?
  13. +3
    23 November 2018 19: 57
    The landing operation is carried out AFTER the suppression of coastal defense. AVMA will work on the fleet then along the Rubezh coast 300 km from the landing site and there it is. Then DESO. Airfield, port, pier. Then CON. A resource is being created for the further development of the offensive. At all exercises, they first beat AVM. then an anti-landing operation. Shamora in Primorye and Halakhtyrka in Kamchatka. The last exercises in Kamchatka in 2013 did just that, I’m talking about the plan.
    From May to October, the infantry of the Army Corps lived there in camps, on Khalaktyrka. We trained to repulse the enemy’s landing. During the USSR.
    Teachings "Tim Spirit". Look at the idea of ​​the event. I had the opportunity to observe it once in 1982 and see how many ships they use there.
    Amer should not be underestimated. They were the ones that produced the largest DO "Overlord". And in the war against the Japanese, they were planted.
    TDK "Newport" Lowered the ramp to the shore for unloading tanks. There were bow thrusters. Made for the first time in the world on these ships.
    And most importantly, DO amers spelled out in the concept of the use of fleet forces. BEFORE this is a step.
    DO is part of a single plan. And the last is the foundation of DO to gain superiority in the air. If this is not the case, holding is pointless.
    1. -1
      24 November 2018 15: 04
      -.And the last is the foundation of DO- gaining superiority in the air. If this is not, holding is meaningless .-

      Also, isolation of the operation area from the operational activities of the enemy’s assault aircraft.

      -Do this is part of a single plan-

      Without a single plan, this is an adventure.
    2. 0
      24 November 2018 15: 25
      This is if the strategic landing by the Americans beat.

      We are here about our tactical, maximum operational ones (Russia will not be able to pull strategic DL for a very long time, and there’s really no other place for such a mass to land).
  14. +1
    25 November 2018 19: 53
    Here it is important to understand that it is impossible to defend the entire coastline, maneuvering the defending troops along the coast over rough terrain is quite difficult, along the coastline it is not easy (and it should not), okay, if it is a sandy or rocky beach, but take the cliffs, rocks, ravines, long floodplains or vice versa capes. Helicopters land troops not directly to the coast, but with wide coverage, in order to enter the landing zone from the flanks or from the rear, again for air defense in this case, an impossible task in all possible ways to cover the entire width and to a sufficient depth to cover the entire coast (radars can and is possible , but not anti-aircraft weapons), especially from low-flying helicopters. There are, of course, preferable and convenient areas for conducting MDO, so they are blocked by the defenders in the first place, but it is impossible to know where the amphibious assault will land and in how many areas, special uncertainty about airborne assault forces - where and to what depth they will be honored, what is their specific purpose, in which side will be hit - on the coastal objects or in the depths of the territory? The defenders have complete confusion about how to organize the defense, where on the ground and in which direction to equip positions, how to group? After all, the ground component of the landing force can simply bypass the positions, having reconnoitred them to call in carrier-based aircraft and naval artillery, and such a defense is not worth it.
    The best way to oppose the enemy’s MDOs is the fleet’s basic strike aircraft and airborne / airborne assault units of the ground forces, sufficiently equipped with attack / anti-aircraft helicopters. IMHO.
  15. 0
    25 November 2018 20: 48
    Also, the USSR successfully practiced landing in the port, in contrast to the Anglo-Americans, who considered landing in the port unjustified.

    If I am not mistaken, the "royal naval commandos" began their ascent from the ports of occupied Norway, long before the opening of the VF in June 1944.
  16. 0
    24 December 2018 00: 50
    The article is frankly weak. Based on experience no later than the beginning of the 70s. 50 years have passed since.
    1) The Russian fleet has no goals for landing at a strategic depth (more than 300 km from its coast).
    2) The Russian fleet has no means of supporting the landing at strategic depth. Without the conquest of at least local dominance in the air and a successful counter-battery struggle, the landing is doomed to quick death. The fleet of the Russian Federation does not have the means to ensure air supremacy and a successful counter-battery fight at a strategic range. AUG did not give us a lift.
    3) Due to paragraphs 1 and 2, the autonomy of UDCs of the Mistral or Vos type for landing is unnecessary.
    4) "Over-the-horizon landing" from a large amphibious assault ship is only possible with complete suppression of the enemy to a depth of 70 (100 in the future) km. This is the range of modern MLRS systems.
    The range of modern anti-ship missiles of coastal defense systems is up to 600 km.
    A slow-moving, huge, weakly defended UDC is an excellent target and no "over-the-horizon landing" in landing troops against modern means of coastal defense will help it, simply because the range of these means is several times higher than the possible over-the-horizon range.
    In a war against a relatively weakly protected enemy, parachute landing in the rear of the defense with the simultaneous landing of the main landing with heavy equipment from landing barges and even more preferably a large UDC is more vulnerable to anti-ship missiles and long-range systems than several smaller barges.
    5) the creation of special "floating" tanks for our country in view of paragraphs 1, 2 and 4, neither economically nor from a military point of view, is not justified.
    6) The article lists the decommissioned Project 12321 Jeyran small amphibious assault ships as the amphibious assault forces, but does not indicate the Project 12322 ZUBR small amphibious assault ships MDK-50 and MDK-94 that are part of the Baltic fleet ...
    - These ships are made in Russia.
    - Each of which is able to deliver motorized infantry companies (with armored personnel carriers) or 3 main battle tanks to the company.
    - Landing can be carried out by ordinary motorized rifle units using standard equipment.
    - Landing can be carried out not only on the coastline, but also in the depths of the enemy’s defense through engineering fortifications (minefields).
    - Speed ​​of 60! knots (111 km / h) allows landing unexpectedly for the enemy. The fastest of the amphibious tanks, the Chinese Type 63 has a water speed of 12 km / h. AT 10! times slower.
    - The presence of two 30 mm automatic anti-aircraft guns of the AK-630 type allows you to organize a fairly serious short-range air defense.
    - The presence of two launchers of the A-22 Fire system allows you to organize a fairly powerful fire cover for the assault and even provide assault artillery preparation when the enemy has defensive positions.
  17. 0
    27 December 2018 12: 01
    Well, yes ... Information for thought .... it turns out that we have almost all the main parts necessary for the landing of tactical assault forces. The only thing is that helicopter carriers are completely absent. It is helicopter carriers (not landing!) That can be called "shock" on which, say, 6 Ka-52 and 6 Ka-29 were based. From the landing, such HC carries a company of "air coverage", maybe two. He does not approach the shore, he does not land any floating equipment. He is like an aircraft carrier, his weapon is helicopters. In our case, all of this, the landing of equipment from a support or afloat is carried out by the BDK pr.775. Bdk pr.775, of course, needs to be modernized with a runway device in the aft part, for a helicopter of the Ka-52 and Ka-27 type, and installing, instead of AK-176 and AK 726, a turret howitzers "Acacia" or "Carnations" for fire support of the landing. That is, the amphibious forces connection includes 1 UV, several large landing ships, and air defense / anti-aircraft defense ships. It is clear that no one will build hydrocarbons, but it is safe to have its own "Atlantic conveyor" from the number of cheap commercial container ships on each fleet.
    1. 0
      28 December 2018 02: 37
      I doubt that replacing quick-firing artillery installations with howitzers is useful. Direct fire cover when landing a howitzer is not able to create. For counter-battery combat (if you put AK-176 or 726 instead), there will be few of them, and the BDK has its own MLRS for this. Project 22161 corvettes under construction could be used as a replacement for a helicopter carrier. Two helicopters (one in the hangar, the second on the site are already placed there), there is also a place for landing. In fact, according to data from open sources, the only thing that project 22161 corvettes can do well at the moment is to land lightly armed infantry assault forces.
      1. 0
        28 December 2018 09: 29
        RZSO for areal purposes. And for point, just howitzers. With the use of the UAS of the "Krasnopol" type + drones, it will not allow the enemy to accumulate, or to provide fire resistance due to the folds of the terrain. The principle of "hitting the target" has not been canceled. Although. if you screw the corresponding head on 122 mm NURS and turn it into a URS with a range of up to 40 km ... it will be delicious!
        1. 0
          28 December 2018 10: 20
          There are too few howitzers on landing ships to conduct a full counter-battery fight. And the direct fire support of the landing is necessary. This I'm not talking about the fact that you need to create a new tool. The land howitzer will not get anywhere from the ship.
          1. 0
            28 December 2018 12: 15
            I don’t want to engage in polemics, much less convince anyone ... that a stabilized ship howitzer is necessary as a means of precision strikes behind the folds of the terrain ... The future will tell. Especially according to the results of the 2nd World War. Especially with the development of BPA and UAS.