Spears of Joseph A. Rony the Elder and Gene M. Auell (part 1)

67
Not so long ago on "VO" appeared article by Kirill Ryabov about ancient Russian spears in battle and hunting, written on the basis of the works of famous Russian historians, including A.N. Kirpichnikova. However, any topic is good because it can be expanded both in breadth (spears of Japanese, Indians, Vikings) and back centuries (spears of Rome, spears of the Hoplite Marathon, spears of the Yin-Yang dynasty, spears ...).

Well, what are the most ancient spears? Of course, the stone age! We were told about this even in the 5 high school class and, in general, they were speaking correctly, but by and large this is about nothing. The Stone Age was the longest milestone in stories of humanity. It was then that there existed various subspecies of Homo sapiens, and is it not interesting to try to find out exactly where, and from whom, these very spears appeared at that time far from us. After all, a spear was one of the steps to the heights of civilization, just like a harpoon, a drilled ax, a raft, a sail, a wheel, and so on ...




Paleolithic hunter with the most ancient form of a spear, whose wooden point was burned in the fire flame. Archaeological Museum, Bonn

Probably, many of you read the novel “The Fight for Fire” by French writer Joseph A. Rony, written back in 1909 on the basis of the then knowledge about the life of primitive people. This is a fascinating story about the search for fire, without which the tribe of ulamrs (obviously people of the modern kind) cannot exist. In 1981, he was screened, and the quality of the film version is indicated by the fact that this film was given two awards: “Cesar” and “Oscar”. Although I personally am not delighted with him. And there are a lot of blunders in it, and the plot is too simplistic compared to the novel.


The film "The Last Neanderthal" (2010). A "stick" could take and straighter!

It is important to note that in other novels J.I. Roni on the “primitive theme”, such as “Virareh” (1892), “Cave Lion” (1918) and “Eldar from the Blue River” (1929). The main theme of the narrative is the merciless clash of primitive human races in the fight for fire or - for women, or simply because “aliens are enemies”.

In this case, the characters enjoy a solid arsenal weaponswhich they constantly carry with them. These are spears with flint tips, and spears are apparently the same spears, but with a crosshair on a pole, so that the tip does not enter the body of the enemy very deeply. In any case, this was precisely the device of the hunting rat in the Middle Ages, but the French writer does not provide any details of its device. Then his heroes use darts, stone axes, and the strongest of them use clubs - a solid weight with battle clubs from the butt of young oak trees, burned for strength on fire.

It is interesting that the tribes described in the novels of the French writer, although they exist in the same time and space, are at different levels of development, which, however, can be explained by their belonging to different human types. Naturally, this is reflected in their armament. For example, the more “advanced” people from the Wa tribe already use a stick-spear, while all the others are more backward, they do not yet have these weapons! This, in general, a simple weapon, as a sling is not used and not even mentioned. That is, the author, most likely, believed that it was invented by man later.


"A man with a spear." Petroglyph from Sweden.

But nowadays American American Gene M. Auele wrote a series of novels, the main character of which was made by primitive girl Aila. It is important to note that Jean Auel was at the excavations in France, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Ukraine, Hungary and Germany, and was engaged in popular servileing these days: she learned how to make stone tools, build houses from snow, to work deer skins and weave grass mats . In the process of working on novels, she consulted with anthropologists, archeologists, historians, ethnographers and specialists in other fields of knowledge, in order to show the world of the Late Pleistocene, in which her characters lived and acted as plausibly as possible, and she fully succeeded.

But the point of view on the coexistence of primitive races is not at all the same as in the novels of Roni the Elder. Despite all the interspecific differences, primitive people do not quarrel with her, and there are practically no descriptions of bloody fights between them in her novels. Weapons are used only against animals! The attack of a person on a person is a rarity and a lot of completely asocial types condemned by all tribes.

As for the actual arsenal of its heroes, it may not be as diverse as in the novels of the French writer, but then it is more effective. This bola is a few stones with a tail of tails, tied with a rope, tossing which, the hunter could tangle the legs of the long-legged prey; sling, which Gene and Auele use both men and women. Another weapon that the heroine invents and puts into use in the novel is precisely the stick spear, the use of which made it possible to throw light darts and spears much further than can be done with a hand. And - yes, indeed, there is evidence that this weapon was used already in the Late Paleolithic. Later, the spear was spread among the aborigines of Australia, in whom it is known as Woomera, Wommera, Wammera, Amer, Purtanji, in New Guinea and near the coastal peoples of northeast Asia and North America, and even in Sakhalin near the Nivkhs. The Spaniards met with a spear thrower, which the aborigines called atlatl, during the conquest of Mexico). Usually it was a plate with an emphasis on one end and two hooks for fingers or a handle on the other, that is, it was arranged very, very simply.

Spears of Joseph A. Rony the Elder and Gene M. Auell (part 1)

A stone-tipped spear from Cabo Verde National Park.

But for us it is important in this case, what information about all this is given to us by the drawings on the walls of the Paleolithic caves, which are the most real galleries of primitive painting. If we take into account the particular nature of one image or another according to the principle, “what is most important for me, then I draw”, then we can conclude that most of the time primitive people were engaged in earning themselves. No wonder there are so many drawings with scenes of hunting in these caves. Thus, in the cave of Lascaux in France found drawings of animals, pierced by a set of darts; and next to it are conventional images of lancetals, which makes it possible to conclude that all these types of weapons at that time already existed and were used. In the center of this cave, in the so-called apse, in a deep four-meter well one can see a colorful image of a bison struck by a large spear; he has a stomach open and fallen entrails are visible. Next to him lies a man, near whom lies a piece of a spear and a small rod decorated with a schematic depiction of a bird. It is very similar to the horn spear from the Mas d'Azille cave in the Pyrenees, belonging to the so-called Azilian culture, with the image of a snow grouse near the hook, so that we see that ancient people even decorated this weapon! Moreover, this find is by no means an exception. But at the gunman, found in the parking lot of Abri Montastruk, also on the territory of modern France and made of deer horn about 12 thousands of years ago, this hook was made in the form of a jumping horse, so the tendency here is clearly defined - “the arms should be decorated”!

By this time, namely in the era of the late Paleolithic, the time of man of the modern species ended, the time of mass hunting for large animals came with the development of strong social ties and internal laws of life that followed, and also the extraordinary flourishing of art that reached the highest level 15 - 10 thousand . years BC. er By this time, the technique of manufacturing tools and weapons has become truly masterly. In any case, today, according to archaeological finds, we know about 150 types of stone and 20 types of bone tools of this time. That's just a pity that only some of them were depicted by ancient people on the walls of these caves, so unfortunately these pictures will not tell us much. Animals - oh yeah, Paleolithic people portrayed very often! But themselves and everyday objects - alas, no, and why it is still unknown so far, although there are no numbers explaining the ingenious hypotheses.


And this arrowheads! And chopping, and not pointed. Amazing isn't it? Metal tips of this form are known, but it turns out they were the same and stone!

That is, in this case, the images are very much under-negotiated, and in order to explain them we will have to compare them with the artifacts of that time discovered by archaeologists. However, we will begin again, not with the findings as such, but with the fact that we again turn to the novels of J.Rony the Sr. and Jean Auel. Why in the works of the first ancient people all the time hostile, while the "children of the Earth" have Auel prefer to still negotiate? Most likely, it’s about the specifics of her current worldview, which was brought back thousands of years ago. As far as all this is “not so”, archaeological finds show. For example, even when the archeologist Arthur Leakey discovered an ancient man’s skull pierced by a sharp stone in the Olduvai Gorge in Kenya, it was already possible to assume that there was no “world under the olive trees” even in that distant era. And it was clear that a roughly crushed stone in a man’s hand (according to various estimates, it could be from 800 thousand to 400 thousand years) could be both a hammer, a chisel, and a scraper, and ... a sufficiently effective weapon.

Apparently, the entire history of humanity J.Roni Sr. saw as one continuous confrontation between people of different physical types, who in the same novel “The Fight for Fire” represent the ulamras, kzamy, red dwarfs and people of the Ba tribe. But wasn’t it all reflected in various artifacts and talentedly conveyed in artistic images? Almost all the epic heroes, to whatever people they belong to, constantly cling to the enemies, embodying "absolute evil." At the same time, it is interesting that most of the heroes, in any case, the most famous among them, are concerned with the problem of their own immortality or invulnerability, or their parents or friends take care of it. The hero of the Iliad, Achilles, is invulnerable to his mother, the goddess who bathes him in the waters of the underground river Styx. Siegfried - the character of the Song of the Nibelungs is bathed in dragon's blood for the same purpose. Exiled hero - the hero of the epic of the narts becomes invulnerable after his father, the blacksmith, places him again in infancy in a red-hot furnace, and holds him with his tongs for legs below the knees. But it is interesting that even then people were wise enough to understand: it is impossible to get absolute invulnerability! The same goddess Thetis holds Achilles by the heel, and it is the arrow of the cunning Paris that falls into it. A leaf of wood stuck to Siegfried's back, and the spear of his enemy stuck it. Well, and the magic wheel Balsaga, who recognized his secret, acts as a cunning ruin of Soslan. After waiting for him to fall asleep, the wheel rolled over his vulnerable spot and ... cut off both his legs below the knees, causing him to bleed out!

That is where the desire of the later knights comes from to put on armor impenetrable for every weapon - from our legendary past! However, the main means of protection for a stone-age man was by no means armor, which, of course, he did not know then, but ... the distance that prevented the enemy from approaching his victim and delivering a fatal blow. We know from the Bible that Cain rebelled against Abel and killed him, but neither the method of murder nor the distance between the criminal and the victim at the time of his commission is specified. Nevertheless, it can be assumed that it was small and Cain either strangled Abel, killed him with a shepherd's staff, or stabbed him with an ordinary knife. The stone that he picked up from the ground and hit his victim on the head is not excluded. In any case, this would not have happened if Abel had managed to escape from him. So frisky legs were just as important a means of protection as were armor and shields.


This tip was recently found by a boy in Texas ...

The distance between opponents could be overcome with the help of appropriate throwing weapons: stones and throwing copies. It is known that, for example, the Japanese infantrymen to ashigaru had spears up to 6,5 meters long. That is, it was the maximum combat distance at which one soldier could lead a battle with another without holding his weapon out of his hands, while the bow allowed one person to hit another at a distance of several dozen or even hundreds of meters, not to mention the reach of an individual and collective firearm. weapons. And for the latter, even 100 kilometers is not the limit! Thus, it is obvious that the whole history of the armed struggle of people against each other (not to mention hunting for the sake of their food!) Was reduced to the creation of effective means of attack, extending their arms and legs and developing appropriate means of protection against the enemy.

But when did people come up with the idea of ​​creating the first samples of throwing weapons with stone tips? It is clear that they themselves, most likely, threw stones at the target always, however, how can you determine whether a particular stone was thrown at the target or whether it just cracked from time to time. After all, the fingerprints have not been preserved on the stones since ... And when did the ancient people come up with precisely the throwing, not the impact spears described by Neanderthals in Jean Auel's novels?

To be continued ...
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  1. +4
    11 November 2018 07: 18
    Roni Sr. was a great original. In fact, his novels are the first "action games" of the "hit-and-run" category. A minimum of direct speech, lyrics and feelings. Scenarios for tactical simulators. Meanwhile, he believed that this is how the literature of the future should look, fortunately, he was wrong.
    Thank you for the article!
    1. 0
      12 November 2018 09: 55
      Quote: 3x3zsave
      Roni Sr. was a great original. In fact, his novels are the first "action games" of the "hit-and-run" category. A minimum of direct speech, lyrics and feelings. Scenarios for tactical simulators. Meanwhile, he believed that this is how the literature of the future should look, fortunately, he was wrong.
      Thank you for the article!

      Well, where in the ancient world could there have been philosophical conversations? Speech was not so developed. The books are magnificent, the world is beautifully described, the idea of ​​the struggle for survival, the definition of friend or foe, nature and so on. This is not only the merit of Russian translators.
  2. 0
    11 November 2018 07: 46
    Probably there were enough battles between people and people ... All the same, the nomads from the times closer to us were biting each other constantly, and with the settled ones too.
    And at one time I was very interested in the question of how to make spears from a whole mammoth tusk? After all, straightening such a bandura bent into an almost ring is not easy, even now they do not know how. We probably lost a lot from the possibly useful skills of the ancients.
    1. +1
      11 November 2018 08: 03
      And how did the inhabitants of Hirokitia make rectangular stone bowls? And they did ...
    2. +2
      12 November 2018 01: 03
      Quote: alex-cn
      And at one time I was very interested in the question of how to make spears from a whole mammoth tusk? After all, straightening such a bandura bent into an almost ring is not easy, even now they do not know how. We probably lost a lot from the possibly useful skills of the ancients.

      No way, the method is unknown. It was possible to straighten the elephant’s tusk (not petrified and especially not so curved as the mammoth tusk) only in laboratory conditions, and even then using chemicals that were clearly inaccessible in that era. Meanwhile, spears from the whole mammoth tusk were found ...
  3. Lad
    +10
    11 November 2018 11: 52
    All the more or less popular historical novels about ancient people are certainly not written about them. They are books written about modern people, for modern people and with a modern worldview. May be a little more or less. Otherwise, the general reader will ignore them - these books will be simply uninteresting to people. And the books of the same Gene Auel confirm this. And the presence in these books of animal skins, mammoths, rhinos and unusual names among the characters is only entourage. People are only interested in their own emotions, their own fears, their own desires and aspirations. Therefore, they can be read, but they cannot be perceived as historical.
  4. Lad
    +1
    11 November 2018 11: 55
    But chopping stone arrowheads is interesting. Maybe spears or darts also had these?
    1. +2
      11 November 2018 12: 37
      Quote: Lad
      But chopping stone arrowheads is interesting. Maybe spears or darts also had these?

      And is it written on them that these are arrowheads? With the same success, it can be assumed that these are scrapers for processing skins .. well, or limit switches for ancient chisels that hollowed out utensils or boats - dugouts ...
      1. +1
        11 November 2018 16: 33
        They are small. You can’t gouge such a boat!
        1. +1
          11 November 2018 16: 37
          Yes, I believe your opinion of course more than my own in these matters. But I dare to note that the chisels still have very different sizes - each stage of the work has its own tool, so for fine-tuning the finished product or decorating it, a thin tool is the most. Forgive the ignoramus for cleverness smile hi
    2. +1
      12 November 2018 13: 46
      Such arrows were needed for small prey, and a spear (even a small one) suggests a larger one. So most likely there was no need for such copies. IMHO))
  5. +1
    11 November 2018 12: 10
    The population density of the Earth in the Stone Age was negligible, people constantly migrated and were engaged in hunting, fishing and gathering, so there was no military action.

    The exception is the era of fragmented skulls in Europe, but stone axes were used there, not spears.
    1. +2
      11 November 2018 12: 29
      Quote: Operator
      The population density of the Earth in the Stone Age was negligible, people constantly migrated and were engaged in hunting, fishing and gathering, so there was no military action.

      The exception is the era of fragmented skulls in Europe, but stone axes were used there, not spears.

      And how does getting food prevent you from killing your own kind (and at that time and not always similar ones) ?? On the contrary, constant migrations would cause fierce battles for richer lands. And the low population density, in the first place, does not mean that the most favorable lands were not populated much denser, and secondly, only a small number of belligerents are suggested, but not their "humanism." And they killed anything at all, which helped to make it more effective at the moment - there are just not so many finds with obvious traces of one or another weapon of sufficient safety for the great remoteness of those times ..
      1. +3
        11 November 2018 13: 36
        Migrations of the indigenous population of Europe did not occur unsystematically, but only around the base settlements - i.e. on their hunting grounds. The exception is the development of new territories in northern Europe after the retreating glacier.

        At the same time, a European phenomenon is noted - cohabitation in the territory of Western Europe for thousands of years by people of haplogroups I and R1a (in the proportion of 3 to 1), but each in mono-ethnic settlements with their own lands. This phenomenon is in the middle of the third millennium BC. replaced by an almost mono-ethnic composition of R1b (with the exception of Scandinavia).

        In any case, the population of postglacial Europe ten thousand years ago (steppe + taiga) is estimated at 10000 people, five thousand years ago (steppe + taiga + broad-leaved forests) - at 100000 people. In such a situation, you had to try very hard to first find neighbors not of your kind, and then something not to share with them.
        1. 0
          11 November 2018 14: 58
          And where did such accurate data about the population and its dynamics, genetic groups and changes in their composition from time to time come from?
          very prehistoric?
          1. +3
            11 November 2018 15: 17
            At the moment, methods have been developed to establish haplogroups from bone remains (nerve tissue of teeth) dating no more than 30 thousands of years ago - in Europe, the oldest Illyrian haplogroup I was identified among the inhabitants of the Adriatic. Now they are working on methods for establishing haplogroups among Cro-Magnons (40 thousand years ago).

            The population of the territory is estimated by the number of settlements found and the number of residential buildings (taking into account their size - for one or several generations of a family).
            1. 0
              11 November 2018 15: 27
              Quote: Operator
              methods for establishing haplogroups from bone remains (nerve tissue of teeth) with

              Well, how many teeth have you studied to collect a sufficient statistical sample to evaluate the gene pool of the then Europe, and even in dynamics? Global should have been research ... winked
              1. +2
                11 November 2018 15: 51
                On the one hand, the studies are global (on the scale of the entire subcontinent), and on the other hand, only a few thousand bone remains of the period from 30000 to 1000 years ago were studied, i.e. most of those found by archaeologists with sufficient preservation of the nervous tissue of teeth.

                These studies are carried out only in the last few years after the creation of computer programs for decoding sets of many DNA fragments according to the type of puzzle folding.

                Part of the information received is classified (mainly not in Europe) at the state level - for example, DNA analysis of the mummies of the Egyptian pharaohs of the first dynasties determined the Celtic haplogroup R1b from them, and not the Hamitic E1, the majority of North Africans, including modern Egyptians, carry it.
                It turns out quite an objective confirmation of the "Norman theory" in the question of the formation of the ancient Egyptian state laughing
        2. 0
          12 November 2018 06: 16
          In such a situation, you had to try very hard to first find neighbors not of your kind, and then something not to share with them.

          I think you are wrong. Tribes of some kind of Melanesians or Sinta Larga are also few in number, and the density of their residence is even now microscopic. But this did not stop them from fighting strangers.
          1. 0
            12 November 2018 17: 48
            As far as I understand, the problems of the islanders are that they multiplied to the limit (and even slightly above that) of the island's resource base. And they do not have the physical ability to dump from there into the beautiful far away. Therefore, they are forced to utilize the surplus population in such wars. Trite spiders in the bank.
            And comrades in Europe did not have such problems yet. That is, until an alien group encroaches on your hunting grounds or hounds in any other way - why bother attacking them at all? Hai go where they went. You can even exchange wives.
            Well, in extreme hunger, track down and get, like normal hunting prey.
            The same wolves do not cut each other at all when they barely see. And they don’t go at war against each other. Our ancestors, as I understand it, should have acted similarly, for the most part.
            So?
            1. +1
              13 November 2018 04: 45
              The problem of the islanders is that they multiplied to the limit (and even slightly above that) of the island's resource base.

              not true. The density of the Papuan tribes and similar Melanesians is negligible. If you look at their diet, which is 90% composed of plant foods, such as roots and sago (where, where, and in Polynesia it simply heaps), then we can no doubt say that it’s not at all the fault of the resources. According to the oldest, tribal feuds occurred more often for religious or domestic reasons.
              In the case of the Amazonian tribes such as Sinta Larga or Kayapo, it is even more complicated. If we compare their number and the area of ​​the Amazon basin, then the density of settlement of these tribes is less than the population density in the Arctic.
      2. 0
        24 January 2019 00: 52
        Quote: KVU-NSVD
        there are simply not many finds with clear traces of one or another weapon of sufficient safety due to the great remoteness of those times ..


        Well, let me disagree!

        Take a look at any of the human palms available to you.

        In the center is a kind of recess. At least in non-obese individuals. This is a hole for the nucleus. People threw stones processed in the form of a nucleus for millions (or tens of thousands) of years.

        Here are the "traces" for you, but a little experimental practice, and voila, - genetic skills will simply cry out - you simply cannot help throwing stones at you and shouting slogans for a long time. Genetic nature develops, but does not cancel out the accumulated experience.

        Conclusion - no spears, yes - throwing and screaming. Alas.
    2. +1
      12 November 2018 01: 05
      Quote: Operator
      The population density of the Earth in the Stone Age was negligible, people constantly migrated and were engaged in hunting, fishing and gathering, so there was no military action.

      Nothing of the kind, traces of the terrible battles and killings of their own kind in human populations have been known since ancient times, unfortunately.
      1. +1
        12 November 2018 08: 58
        Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
        traces of scary battles

        The only known ancient "terrible" battle in Europe is the battle between the Aryans and the Erbines in the Tollensee River Valley (East Germany) 3300 years ago. Both stone and bronze weapons were used in the battle. The number of participants in the battle on both sides is estimated at 4000 people, the death toll at 750 people. Since no settlements of Erbins appeared to the east of the battlefield for the next 2200 years, the victory remained with the Aryans.

        Otherwise, the migration of Erbins to Western Europe (the era of split skulls, the third millennium BC) left a trace only in the mass graves of women, children and old people of the indigenous people (Illyrians and Aryans) with split skulls located on the outskirts of the settlements.

        Earlier traces of "terrible" battles in Europe have not been found.
  6. 0
    11 November 2018 15: 05
    It is known that, for example, Japanese Asigaru infantrymen had spears up to 6,5 meters long


    These were not spears, but peaks. Yari spears were much shorter and included throwing. Yari was a samurai weapon. Peaks - Asigaru weapons do not throw peaks and are used exclusively in the ranks.
    1. -1
      11 November 2018 16: 41
      Quote: Horse, lyudovѣd and soulѣlyub
      Peaks - Asigaru weapons do not throw peaks and are used exclusively in the ranks.

      Can you tell me the name of the peak in Japanese? And who and when of the samurai metal spears and where?
      1. 0
        11 November 2018 19: 20
        We are writing here in Russian, dear friend. In Russian, the words "pike" and "spear" mean different things from the way they are used.

        Samurai battle is something special. laughing the ashigaru fought in the ranks, and the samurai preferred to dunk another samurai, after introducing themselves. The more heads of noble samurai brought from the war, the more respect for the samurai. The yari spear was the same samurai weapon as a bow or sword. Who preferred what. Since the samurai worked with this spear quite intensively, not only with stabbing, but also with chopping movements, its length was limited by common sense and the physical capabilities of the samurai. The tips of such a spear were quite diverse. With and without transverse blades. The transverse blades were used to attack the feet of foot soldiers and the feet of horses. The technique of working with such a spear was a great many. Almost every village had its own school - not in the sense of having a dojo, namely a spear school or a sword school. The Japanese in this sense were quite conceited.

        So, in the heat of battle, a samurai could throw a short spear of about 2.5 meters to stop an approaching enemy and switch to a sword if there are many enemies nearby. If the distance was so shortened, then in such close combat from the spear there was no sense.

        I could hardly throw a 6.5 meter peak asigaru. And due to its length and due to the fact that I had to work strictly in the ranks.

        hi

        There was also a "tool" called the naginata, a kind of halberd that could chop and stab. The naginata was considered a female weapon. Girls have been taught naginata techniques since childhood.
        1. 0
          11 November 2018 20: 46
          What a pity that when I wrote the book "Samurai. The First Complete Encyclopedia", I have not read your commentary yet. This would greatly "deepen" its content.
        2. +2
          11 November 2018 22: 45
          "There was also a" tool "called naginata, something like a kind of halberd"

          If "something like", then not halberds, but glaives. In the top photo, glaives and halberds together, you can clearly see the difference.
          But what’s the thing? For the Japanese, the naginata didn’t refer to pole arms, but to swords and it had not a pole, but a handle, only a long one.
          This weapon was just samurai, not "female".
        3. 0
          12 November 2018 07: 37
          Then why write yari? Strange = yari, but peak? Don't you think?
          1. +1
            12 November 2018 09: 40
            Yes, it's all a word game based on Wikipedia.
            In Russian, the words "lance" and "spear" mean different things from the way they are used.
            And in Russian, European pikemen were called ... spearmen.
            Pika - let’s say, a highly specialized variety of spears. In Japan, they were called omi-yari.
  7. +3
    11 November 2018 16: 33
    Well, what are the oldest spears? Of course, the stone age! We were told about this in the 5th grade of high school and, in general, they were spoken correctly, but only by and large it is about nothing. The Stone Age was the longest milestone in the history of mankind. It was then that there were different subspecies of Nomo sariens, and is it not interesting to try to find out exactly where, when, and from whom these very spears appeared at that time far from us.

    Here he is - the first of the spear-owners known to science - the Heidelberg man who lived in Europe about 700-345 thousand years ago. I write approximately, since in different sources there are fluctuations plus / minus 100 thousand years.
    If you follow the theories of our website experts - geneticists - because someone's relative.
    1. +3
      11 November 2018 16: 36
      And these are spears of that same Heidelberg man.

      These are Schöningen spears - eight copies made of wood, discovered during excavations from 1994 to 1998 under the direction of Dr. H. Thieme in a brown coal mine in Schöningen (Germany). Spears date back some 300 years ago and are the oldest fully preserved weapons for hunting.
      While in Saxony, visit the Schöningen Spears Center.
      1. +2
        11 November 2018 16: 51
        And in the rift valleys of Ethiopia, scientists found stone-tipped spears that are 280 years old.

        Now scientists are arguing whether these spears are still Heidelberg man, or already a reasonable person.
        1. +3
          11 November 2018 16: 58

          And this is the Lanze von Lehringen - a non -ertal lance from Leringen, Germany, which is 120 years old. Moreover, it was found between the edges of the skeleton of a forest elephant.
      2. 0
        11 November 2018 18: 38
        And in the territory of the former USSR did you find something similar?
        1. 0
          11 November 2018 19: 02
          Quote: hohol95
          And in the territory of the former USSR did you find something similar?

          For the sake of interest and what for you?
          1. +1
            11 November 2018 19: 04
            For fun ...
            1. 0
              11 November 2018 19: 08
              Quote: hohol95
              For fun ...

              The main thing is not to become like the closest neighbors, they dug the same land for scientific purposes, but at 45 they stopped.
              1. 0
                11 November 2018 22: 12
                Quote: marshes
                The main thing is not to become like the closest neighbors, they dug the same land for scientific purposes, but at 45 they stopped.

                Kazakhs or what?
              2. 0
                11 November 2018 22: 37
                I did not understand your answer.
                I’m just wondering if spears or similar hunting and war tools of such ancient manufacture were found on the territory of the former USSR!
    2. +1
      11 November 2018 17: 17
      Quote: Curious
      If you follow the theories of our website experts - geneticists - because someone's relative.

      Damn, here the guys from Ukraine exhibited such a funny picture. It is here on the site but it has already been two or three years.
      1. +4
        11 November 2018 17: 23
        I am also from Ukraine, but I have never met a Heidelberg man, I did not have a chance.
        1. +2
          11 November 2018 17: 32
          Quote: Curious
          I am also from Ukraine, but I have never met a Heidelberg man, I did not have a chance.

          Yes, the picture in general was ... .. laughing half a day already suffered laughing after all, a somnolent and "Bandera" man works, relatives are from Khmelnitsk. Before the events he told me all tales as grandfathers !!! , canteen. laughing
    3. +1
      12 November 2018 01: 08
      Quote: Curious
      If you follow the theories of our website experts - geneticists - because someone's relative.

      By the way, here is no - there are no traces of kinship between Heidelberg and modern people (unlike Neanderthals), at least for now, primarily due to the small number of known bone remains of this proto-race of people and their poor preservation.
  8. +1
    11 November 2018 16: 34
    I read Ilyas Yesenberlin, the Nomads trilogy. So the deified birch stick was used in the 15th ... centuries as a spear by the nomads, the lowest by social status. Although they even had at least a long knife.

    Well, the most powerful weapon was the SHOKPAR - the club, the rootstock of willow or birch studded with bronze or steel rings, one successful blow and the whole intermission. laughing
  9. +2
    11 November 2018 17: 45
    Quote: Curious
    The very first of the spear owners known to science is the Heidelberg man who lived in Europe about 700 — 345 thousand years ago. If you follow the theories of our website specialists - geneticists - because someone’s relative

    According to DNA analysis, the common ancestor of Heidelbergs, Neanderthals and Homo sapiens lived 750 thousands of years ago, the common ancestor of Heidelbergs and Neanderthals lived 500 thousand years ago, the homo sapiens of the base haplogroup A - 220 thousand years ago.

    But according to the school history course of Ukraine, the first lance holder - the Heidelberg man is a direct ancestor of Svidomo Ukrainians laughing

    1. 0
      11 November 2018 17: 54
      Quote: Operator
      According to DNA analysis, the common ancestor of Heidelbergs, Neanderthals and Homo sapiens lived 750 thousand years ago, the common ancestor of Heidelbergs and Neanderthals - 500 thousand years ago.

      As I understand it, even before that. You understand the haplogroups of blood.
      Is there a relationship with the blood group? I read, the deceased, Olesya Buzina. The moles of Ukrainians in most 3 have a positive blood type, like ours, for example, Kazakhs. For us, it is rare 2 but more recently 4 appears.
      1. +1
        11 November 2018 20: 48
        Haplogroups of DNA and blood groups are not connected in any way.

        In addition, they can be easily distinguished by symbol:
        - the first are indicated in capital letters of the Latin alphabet;
        - the second is indicated by Roman numerals and in brackets in capital letters of the Latin alphabet.
    2. +2
      12 November 2018 01: 11
      Quote: Operator
      According to DNA analysis, the common ancestor of Heidelbergs, Neanderthals and Homo sapiens lived 750 thousands of years ago, the common ancestor of Heidelbergs and Neanderthals lived 500 thousand years ago, the homo sapiens of the base haplogroup A - 220 thousand years ago.

      Well, you should not trust all evolutionary dating, which are based on some unproven hypothesis of a certain scientist, not a scientist at all, but a natural philosopher of the 19th century from the estate of Down.

      The realities of age assessments are most likely smaller by "several orders of magnitude".
      1. 0
        12 November 2018 09: 16
        This dating is not the time of life, but the time of occurrence (separation) of the first representatives of Heidelbergs, Neanderthals and Homo sapiens. The dates were not made by the natural philosopher of the 19 century, but by modern specialists based on DNA samples obtained from the bones of the latest representatives of biological species.

        DNA analysis was carried out not in terms of information labels (haplogroups), but in parts of DNA helix sections encoding hereditary traits. The method is based on the inverse calculation of the time of mutations of sets of chromosomes in these areas until they coincide in Heidelbergs, Neanderthals and homo sapiens.
        1. +1
          15 November 2018 00: 08
          Quote: Operator
          This dating is not the time of life, but the time of occurrence (separation) of the first representatives of Heidelbergs, Neanderthals and Homo sapiens. The dates were not made by the natural philosopher of the 19 century, but by modern specialists based on DNA samples obtained from the bones of the latest representatives of biological species.

          Everything is fine except for one thing - you can draw any numbers on the conditional dial of human history - and those evolutionists who need great ages for their evolutionary changes, who will not be found in 150 years already (whereas coelacanth - 100 years ago, known for its fossilized prints and claimed to be an ancestor of land-facing animals - found to be healthy) they are painted on them for hundreds and tens of millions of years. Proponents of the theory of Intelligent Design and Creation of this world adhere to much smaller values.
          1. 0
            15 November 2018 10: 00
            Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
            Supporters of the theory of Intelligent Design and Creation of this world

            To us, supporters of the theory of Intelligent Design (14 billion years ago) and the subsequent Self-development (from time to time corrected) of this world, your theory is a light bulb laughing
            1. 0
              16 November 2018 01: 29
              Quote: Operator
              To us, supporters of the theory of Intelligent Design (14 billion years ago) and the subsequent Self-development (from time to time corrected) of this world, your theory is a light bulb

              What a sharp you are! Andrey, just for reference, look at how many times in the 20 century, the dates of geological and paleontological ages have changed globally, and each time your evolutionists have stated the inviolability of these dates.

              And the self-development of the living - what are you talking about? Is it fixed as a phenomenon? or maybe explain how even a trilobite eye appeared from a lump of mucus (and Darwin and others like them had no idea about genetics)?

              And you, a person who is so fond of genetic research, just look, how can the INFORMATION written in the gene code appear there without a PROGRAMMER? and moreover, it is written down in CODE! maybe you still come up with some sort of nonsense about self-improving or self-developing information?

              If you do not believe in the Creation of this world and do not believe in the Creator, whose Revelation has come to us in the Bible, then this is your full right. Only here is the problem - in the posthumous fate you just don’t need to be offended ... Do you know God has not only Love, but also Justice. This is just for completeness.
              1. 0
                16 November 2018 12: 01
                I am a Christian, Orthodox - therefore I believe in the Creator, but I also believe in freedom of conscience and a program for the development of the inanimate part of the world. Therefore, the Creator creates conditions, and subjects (according to freedom of conscience) and objects (according to the program of development) realize them.

                As far as I understand, the Patriarch of Moscow and the Pontiff of Rome adhere to the same opinion.
                1. 0
                  16 November 2018 14: 54
                  Quote: Operator
                  I am a Christian, Orthodox - therefore I believe in the Creator, but I also believe in freedom of conscience and a program for the development of the inanimate part of the world.

                  For a start, you can familiarize yourself with the works of Hieromartyr Fr. Daniel Sysoev (at least "The Chronicle of the Beginning"), Fr. Georgy Maximov and Fr.

                  Just as a fact, a true Orthodox Christian cannot be an evolutionist, i.e. a supporter of an unproven, fundamentally unscientific theory based on an anti-Christian worldview concept, and fundamentally contrary to Bible Revelation.

                  I’ll ask one, the simplest question (from the movie "Sunstroke" by the way) - and what, all people, then, are they from monkeys? and what, Christ Himself, is He, too, from a monkey? For an Orthodox person, only one answer is correct here - a categorical denial of such blasphemy.
                  1. 0
                    16 November 2018 15: 43
                    Not people descended from monkeys, but monkeys and people had a common ancestor somewhere 1,6 million ago - is determined by the counting down of the rate of accumulation of mutations (differences) in the DNA of both genera of primates.

                    Jesus Christ is not a man.

                    Do not fall into heresy - in terms of evolutionism you cannot be holier than the Patriarch and the Pontiff laughing
                    1. 0
                      17 November 2018 00: 10
                      Quote: Operator
                      Do not fall into heresy - in terms of evolutionism you cannot be holier than the Patriarch and the Pontiff

                      Roman pontiffs - heretics recognized as such by the Orthodox Councils, have been almost 1000 years old. This is the time. They will soon reach the female priesthood and pederast priests, and what, listen to them too?

                      The opinion of an individual patriarch may (and is in this case) be erroneous, sharply opposed to the agreed opinion of the Holy Fathers of the Church (you probably know who they are and what exactly their opinion is worth? !!). These are two.

                      Quote: Operator
                      Not people descended from monkeys, but monkeys and people had a common ancestor somewhere 1,6 million ago
                      Well, yes, well, yes, which they just can't find. I recommend the book by Alexei Milyukov "The Black Monkey in the Dark Room" - everything is laid out in detail and from a scientific point of view, about common but mythical ancestors.

                      A simple question for thought - why should evolution in general create an excess organ, which is the human brain, which is not fully used by modern man?

                      Quote: Operator
                      Jesus Christ is not a man.

                      According to the views of the Darwinists - Man, and what is happening you yourself understand from whom. This is one of the main heretical blasphemy in evolutionism, therefore, a Christian cannot be an evolutionist.

                      And do not believe evolutionary dating - divisions on the timeline can be drawn differently, just like linking the speed of counting the accumulation of mutations to an already given Darwinistic scale. It’s just that in order to at least somehow prove their theory, they need an abyss of time, while Christians and supporters of the Intelligent Design as a whole do not need these hundreds of millions of years, and scientific facts (and not hypotheses) say that the Earth is young but not old.
                      1. 0
                        17 November 2018 00: 17
                        Quote: Mikhail Matyugin
                        The opinion of an individual patriarch may (and is in this case) erroneous

                        Let me guess - you are an old believer laughing
                      2. 0
                        17 November 2018 00: 24
                        Quote: Operator
                        Let me guess - you are an old believer

                        That's not once. Just at the same time educated and believing person. Exactly what is inside the ROC MP.

                        And the cited persons from the priests, by the way, are also members of the community specifically of the Russian Orthodox Church MP (Father Danil Sysoev, who was killed in the altar of his temple, even had public disputes with schismatics-Old Believers, not to mention his most famous disputes with Muslims).

                        Just for reference, a bit of theology: the opinion of the living patriarch is considered to be lower than the opinion of the Council, the opinion of the Council is lower than the agreed opinion of the Holy Fathers of the Church (however, usually the opinion of the Council is built on them and there is almost never any contradiction).

                        And yes, Alexy II, not to mention Patriarch Pimen (who, if you do not know, generally forbade the priests to have any watch, except for a modest "onion", which had to be kept in their pocket), he fully agreed with the point of view of the Creation of the World. as completely biblical.

                        You are about the youth of the world and about the fundamental problems of evolutionary Darwinism look a little deeper, you, as a person close to genetics, will be interested.
                      3. 0
                        17 November 2018 00: 27
                        It is about the Creation of the World 16 billion years ago that I am talking about.
  10. +3
    12 November 2018 01: 00
    Quote: V. Shpakovsky
    But the point of view on the coexistence of primitive races is not at all the same as in the novels of Roni the Elder. Despite all the interspecific differences, primitive people do not quarrel with her, and there are practically no descriptions of bloody fights between them in her novels. Weapons are used only against animals! The attack of a person on a person is a rarity and a lot of completely asocial types condemned by all tribes.
    Vyacheslav Olegovich, well, it’s clear that a woman wrote novels in the first place, and in the second - not at the end of the 19-beginning of the 20 century, but nowadays. But archaeological reality, not to mention the surviving descriptions of the life of primitive tribes by the first European settlers, is strongly opposed. In particular, at some stage slavery became a very progressive affair, since before (and in many tribes until the establishment of power over most of the planet of Europeans) prisoners were not taken banally - why do we need an extra mouth in conditions of subsistence farming? and the tribal wars were fought literally to the last man and ended in complete genocide of the losing side ...

    Quote: V. Shpakovsky
    And these are arrowheads! Moreover, chopping, but not pointed. Amazing right?
    Hmm, why do you need arrows? generally light darts are quite suitable. And yes, blunt arrowheads were used for hunting - so as not to ruin the skin of the same squirrel.
    1. 0
      12 November 2018 07: 34
      There is a wonderful story by the North of Gansovsky "A man is walking" ...
  11. +1
    12 November 2018 01: 32
    Maybe spears are weapons of the future? Who knows? Something I do not like the trend of world politics.
    Just in case, you need to learn combat techniques individually and in the ranks.
    1. +1
      15 November 2018 00: 10
      Quote: faterdom
      Maybe spears are weapons of the future? Who knows? Something I do not like the trend of world politics.

      It seems that Einstein also said (and I am quite in solidarity with him on this) - “I don’t know exactly what kind of weapon people will fight in World War III, but I can reliably say with what weapon they will fight in World War IV - these will be spears and cudgels ".
  12. +2
    12 November 2018 08: 45
    Quote: Soho
    The tribes of some kind of Melanesians or Sinta Larga are also few in number, and the density of their residence even now is microscopic

    The density of Europeans on land 5-10 thousands of years ago was several orders of magnitude lower than the density of residence of the Melanesians.
  13. Lad
    0
    12 November 2018 18: 17
    All the time we confuse modern mentality and morality with those that were at that level of development of society. It is absolutely impossible to do so. Now there are completely different concepts about the value of human life, about killing, etc.

    I once read a description of a scientist about the modern life of one of the tribes in the Amazon. Murders were frequent there. Moreover, the murder of members of his own very small tribe. And they killed for reasons that are even difficult for us to understand. For example, a woman in her 50s could (and often did) get killed simply because she is "old". Although she was still in very good health and was a full-fledged worker. They could have killed someone just by arguing. The punishment for this, from society, in any case, was not great.

    Or read a study of the life of Aboriginal islands in the Australian side. They rarely killed each other in the settlement. But the size of the settlement was small. In general, there were a lot of murders. The story of almost every woman about her life sounded something like this: first I married my first husband, then my second husband killed my first husband and married me. (Killed to take his place) Then my third husband killed my second husband and married me ...

    So there were a lot of reasons for the murder. And there was no moral prohibition on killing. No need to extend modern morality to those times.

    Of course, modern tribes leading a primitive way of life cannot be unambiguously compared with those that lived tens of thousands of years ago, but there are still significant similarities between them.