Naval Aviation of the Russian Navy. Current status and prospects. H. 2

59
The second article on marine aviation RF, we will start by working on the mistakes of the previous one.

So, the first - the author suggested that in 2011-13. tactical fighter and strike aircraft were completely withdrawn from the Navy, with the exception of the Admiral TAVKR air group fleet Soviet Union Kuznetsov ”and the Black Sea attack regiment. However, thanks to respected readers, it turned out that the 865th separate fighter aviation regiment, based in Yelizovo (Pacific Fleet), also remained in the Navy. More precisely, not so that it was preserved, the regiment, as you can understand, was disbanded, however, the fleet left two MiG-31 squadrons, which today are completely or partially replaced by the MiG-31BM. In addition, according to the bmpd blog, the 4th separate guard naval assault aviation regiment as part of the Baltic Fleet was also not transferred to the Air Force, but was disbanded - the only Su-24M and Su-24MR squadrons remained in the fleet. Apparently, the situation was such that, despite the decision to transfer tactical aircraft, in some cases the Air Force simply refused to take part in the composition of the almost absent materiel, which is why such air regiments were simply disbanded and reduced to the size of a squadron.

The second mistake is that the number of IL-38 today is almost half that of the author. Publications usually state “about 50”, but it seems that those planes that will never be able to take to the air have gotten into this figure. Most likely, the IL-38 modernization program to the IL-38H state covers all aircraft that are capable of today, that is, if you plan to upgrade the 28 IL-38, then we have just as many airplanes left.

And finally, the third - the qualification “pilot-ace” does not exist, after the pilot of the 1 class follows the pilot-sniper.

Many thanks to all who pointed out the author to his mistakes.

Taking into account the above-mentioned amendments, the estimated number of naval aviation of the Russian Navy today, and in the near future (up to about 2020 g) will be:

Naval Aviation of the Russian Navy. Current status and prospects. H. 2


Tactical aircraft

Strictly speaking, 119 tactical aircraft seem to be a rather formidable force, but - until we take a closer look at these planes.

MiG-31 and MiG-31BM - these aircraft, for all their undoubted advantages (supersonic cruising speed, two crew members, which is important for the "sea" aircraft), still do not fully meet the tasks of naval aviation of the Russian Navy. The problem lies in the fact that the MiG-31 was created as an interceptor fighter, that is, an aircraft aimed at fighting bomber-rocket carriers with high-altitude reconnaissance aircraft, as well as enemy cruise missiles. But in no case was the MiG-31 a fighter of air superiority, the creators did not put such opportunities in it.

Although the MiG-31 can carry short-range air-to-air guided missiles (hereinafter referred to as URV), but the aircraft is not intended for close air combat — for this, the maneuverability of the MiG-31 is completely inadequate.


MiG-31BM


At the same time, the long range explosives UR P-33 and P-37 do not cope well with the destruction of tactical aviation - after all, the main target for such missiles are strategic bombers and cruise missiles. But an attempt to attack enemy fighters from a long range with them will most likely be doomed to failure, because with the timely detection of such missiles, modern EW, combined with an energetic anti-missile maneuver, reduce the probability of hitting the target to very small amounts.

All this, of course, does not mean that the MiG-31 is unable to fight against the tactical and deck aircraft of the enemy. In the end, with all the advantages that the multinational air forces had in Iraq, the F-A-18 Hornet was shot down by an Iraqi MiG-25 using a short-range air defense missile during the Storm in the Desert. In another combat episode, two MiG-25 fought four of the F-15, and, despite the fact that the latter fired several missiles at them, they did not suffer losses, although they themselves could not harm the enemy.

Of course, the upgraded MiG-31BM have much greater capabilities than the Iraqi MiG-25, but their real vocation is the destruction of strategic bombers and cruise missiles flying to us through the North Pole, as well as the Tomahawk and the like. Thanks to the modernization of the MiG-31BM, they were able to carry various air-to-surface missiles of the X-25, X-29, X-31 and X-59 families, which allows the use of interceptors as attack aircraft, including against enemy ships. But, due to the low maneuverability and the lack of modern EW complexes (information that MiG-31BM are equipped with the latter, the author does not have), their use is rather limited, and despite equipping the entire modern nomenclature of UR CENTURIES (including RVV-BD , SD and DB) air combat from them should not expect much.

Su-33 - sadly admit it, but this plane is outdated. Its combat capabilities are not too superior to those of the classic Su-27. Modernization, of course, made it better by expanding the range of used ammunition and giving the ability to destroy ground targets, but this is not enough to speak of the Su-33 as a modern, fully-fledged fighter.

Su-24M / M2 - for its time it was a fairly good plane, but its time has passed. Su-24 today was decommissioned by the VKS RF, and the upgraded version of the М / М2 was supposed to be “sent for well deserved rest” to 2020 g or a little later. It is possible that the Black Sea Su will be able to delay the service longer, but of course, this aircraft is no longer suitable for a modern battle against a high-tech enemy. Of course, the Su-24 rating increased immeasurably after “blinding” them by using the Eib Khibiny complex of the American destroyer Donald Cook radars, but, first, the original source news does not deserve the slightest confidence, and secondly, the Khibiny complex was never installed on the Su-24.

In fact, the only modern (though not the newest) tactical aircraft in service with the Russian Navy are the 19 MiG-29KR, the 3 MiG-29KUBR and, roughly, the 22 Su-30CM, and the entire 44 aircraft. And, of course, on the 4 fleet this is absolutely not enough.

We have already examined the MiG-29KR / KUBR in sufficient detail in a series of articles on the Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Kuznetsov, and it makes no sense to repeat - this is an 4 ++ generation aircraft, somewhat inferior, but somewhat superior to the latest versions. Super Hornet. Entered into service by virtue of complete lack of alternative, as it is the only one currently deck multipurpose fighter of the Russian Federation. These aircraft are completing the Kuznetsov air group; no additional supplies are planned.



Another thing - Su-30CM.



This aircraft, about which the Chief of Naval Aviation of the Navy, Major General Igor Kozhin said:

“In the future, we will change almost the entire fleet of operational-tactical aviation on the Su-30CM - it will become our base aircraft”


Let's see what is the future base aircraft of the Navy.

Su-30CM is by far one of the heaviest multi-purpose fighters: empty mass is 18 800 kg (Su-35 - 19 000 kg, F-22A - 19 700 kg), normal take-off - 24 900 kg (Su-35 kgNNXX) (Su-25 kg) 300 22 kg (Su-29 200 kg) 38 kg, F-800A - 34 500 kg), maximum take-off - 38 000, 30 31 and 7 770 kg, respectively. In this case, Su-12SM it equipped with the weakest engines among all these planes: his AL-500FP has cravings maximum besforsazhny 35 8 kg, afterburner - 800 14 kg, while the Su-500 engine - 22 10 and 500 15 kg, and F-876A - 30 35 and 22 2,25 kgf respectively. Therefore, it is not surprising that the speed of the Su-30CM is lower than modern heavy fighters - while the Su-1,96 and F-30A are capable of accelerating to 1,8M, the limit of the Su-XNUMXCM is only XNUMXM. However, it is unlikely that the Su-XNUMXCM loses much of this as a fighter - no one doubts that the French “Rafale” is an extremely dangerous air fighter, but its speed is even lower - to XNUMXM.

However, relatively weak engines adversely affect such an important indicator of the aircraft as the thrust-to-weight ratio - in Su-30CM with a normal take-off weight, it is only one, while in Su-35 - 1,1, in "Raptor" - 1,15. The area of ​​the Su-30CM wing (as on all Sukhoi aircraft) is relatively small, 62 sq. M. The "Raptor" it is more than 25,8% (78,04 m), but due to its design scheme, the fuselage of the domestic aircraft is also involved in creating lift, the load on the wing of these two machines with a comparable load is not so much different.

In general, Su-30CM seems to be losing both Su-35 and F-22A in terms of maneuverability, although in the case of the latter it’s not so simple: firstly, besides thrust-carrying capacity and wing loading, it would not hurt to know the aerodynamic quality of the aircraft, but also the capabilities provided by the SIP plane, and secondly, the Su-30CM engines are capable of changing both vertical and horizontal thrust vector while F-22A engines are only vertical.

As a result, if we consider only the figures of speed / thrust-load / load on the wing, then the Su-30CM looks like a very mediocre fighter, but taking into account the above (as well as other, unaccounted for) factors, it is in close maneuver combat at least not inferior to modern American and European airplanes (including - Eurofighter Typhoon - speed 2,3М, thrust-to-weight 1,18, wing load - 311 kg per square meter), which was shown by training battles in which Su-30 of various modifications of the Air Force of India and other countries participated.

So, Su-30CM maneuverability today is, if not the best, then one of the best among multi-role fighters, both heavy and light. However, unlike most modern aircraft of this class, it is a two-seater, and as such, much more versatile than a single-seater.

We have already said that it is possible to create a single-purpose multifunctional aircraft that can work equally well for air and ground targets, but it is not easy to prepare an equally multifunctional pilot. The situation is considerably simplified when there are two people in the crew - they divide the functionality in half, and due to this specialization, the two of them are able to solve more tasks with the same efficiency as one pilot does. The author of this article does not know whether a trained Su-30CM crew can solve impact tasks as effectively as they could be solved, for example, attack aviation pilots and at the same time fight in the air, not inferior to fighter aviation pilots, but if not , they are still able to approach such an ideal closer than a single-seater pilot.



I must say that Su-30CM has the advantage over most airplanes of its class - its maximum flight range at altitude is 3 000 km, while the same Raptor reaches 2 960 km only when two PTBs are suspended (F-35А, by the way - 2 000 km without PTB). And only at Su-35 it is higher, reaching 3 600 km. The long-range Su-30CM gives the aircraft great advantages, as it increases its combat radius, or, when flying at an equal distance, it has more fuel for afterburner and air combat. The time spent in the air Su-30CM is about 3,5 hours, which is higher than most fighters (usually - 2,5 hours). Here, the crew of the 2 man also gives an advantage, as it leads to less pilots fatigue, in addition, the flight in the absence of landmarks (a common thing at sea) is psychologically tolerated by such a crew more easily than a single pilot.

Both Su-35 and Su-30CM have “work” capabilities for land and sea targets, but the payload (the difference between empty weight and maximum take-off weight) of Su-30CM is 20 tons, and it is higher than that of Su-35 ( 15,5 t) and the "Raptor" (18,3 t).

As for the SU-30CM avionics, it must be said that this is the first domestic fighter with an open architecture. What does this mean? The traditional architecture of the aircraft implied that communication between their equipment was carried out through specific communication lines, information exchange protocols, etc. As a result, if there was a desire to modernize the aircraft, changing any equipment or adding new ones, then this necessitated redesigning the rest of the avionics that were in contact with it, and often it was necessary to change the design of the aircraft, lay new communications, etc. It was a very long and expensive process.

But in an open architecture, this is not necessary - the interaction of various equipment is carried out through a standard data transmission bus. In this case, the Su-30 became the first domestic digital aircraft, since all information flows "converged" in the central computer. As a result, the installation of any new equipment almost never requires the completion of the rest - all issues of their interaction are resolved by means of appropriate “additional lists” of software. Vladimir Mikheev, Advisor to the First Deputy General Director of the Radioelectronic Technologies Concern, described it this way: “A fundamentally new approach was developed for this aircraft - the so-called open architecture, when we could connect any number of systems to the central computer weapons, flight-navigation, protective. And all the systems in this plane were first made digital. ”

Generally speaking, this was done in order to meet the diverse requirements of the overseas Su-30 buyers. The plane was intended to be exported, it had to be delivered to various countries that had their own specific requirements for the composition of its avionics: they would be prohibitively expensive and expensive to implement on the basis of a classical architecture plane, which would hardly suit the customers. Well, thanks to the open architecture, virtually any equipment could be integrated into the Su-30, including foreign-made equipment.

However, this approach not only “donated” Su-30 a huge export potential, but also provided unprecedented opportunities for upgrading the aircraft - after all, it turned out that you can install almost any equipment acceptable for the design of the aircraft on the aircraft. Su-30CM is most similar to the modern computer architecture of IBM, which, in essence, is the designer "assemble yourself." Began to slow down? Add RAM. Can not cope with the calculations? We put a new processor. Not enough when buying money for a good sound card? Nothing, save up and buy later, etc. In other words, for its time, the Su-30 family of aircraft (perhaps in the Su-30MKI version) came very close to the ideal combination of tactical, technical and operational qualities for a multi-purpose fighter, while possessing a very reasonable price, which predetermined the great success of these aircraft on world market (compared to other heavy fighters). And everything would be great if it were not for one “but” - the key words in the last sentence are “for their time”.

The fact is that the first flight of the Su-30MKI prototype (from which the Su-30CM later “grew”) took place as early as 1997. And I must say directly that the optimum combination of price and technical characteristics of the aircraft provided a balance between the new equipment, cost and manufacturability: translated into Russian, this means that it was not the best equipment that we could create at that time, but the most acceptable in terms of price-quality ratio. And here is one of the results: today, the X-NUMXМ Bars radar control system (RLSU) is being installed on the Su-30CM, which has long been at the peak of progress.



With all of this ... the language does not turn to call the "Leopard" a bad radar. Let's try to understand this a little more.

Many people who are interested in modern weapons determine the quality of the aircraft’s on-board radar. AFAR? Oh, great, gorgeous complex. Not AFAR? Fi, yesterday, completely uncompetitive. Such an approach, to put it mildly, is overly simplistic and does not at all reflect the real state of affairs in the radar station. So how did it all begin? Once upon a time, the radar of the aircraft was a flat antenna, behind which were the receiver and signal transmitter. Such radars could track only one target, while in order to accompany it (after all, both the plane and the target change position in space) it was required to mechanically turn the antenna towards the target. Subsequently, the radar control system taught to see and maintain several air targets, but at the same time they retained a fully mechanical scan (for example, AN / APG-63 radar, installed on earlier versions of the F-15).

But then came the radar with a passive phased array (PFAR). The fundamental difference from the radars of the previous types was that their antenna consisted of a set of cells, each of which has its own phase shifter, which is capable of changing the phase of the electromagnetic wave at different angles. In other words, such an antenna is like a multitude of antennas, each of which can send electromagnetic waves at different angles, both horizontally and vertically, without mechanical turning. Thus, the electronic scan replaced the mechanical scan, and it became a great advantage of the PPAR over the radars of previous generations. Strictly speaking, there were radars, as if to say so, a transition period, for example, H001K “Sword”, which used mechanical scanning in the horizontal plane and electronic scanning - in the vertical, but we will not complicate the explanations beyond what is necessary.

So, with the advent of electronic scanning, the change in the direction of the radio wave became practically instantaneous, thus, it was possible to achieve a fundamental increase in the accuracy of predicting the target position in the tracking mode during the passage. And it became possible to simultaneously shoot at several targets, since the PFAR provided them with continuous-discrete illumination. In addition, PFAR was able to work simultaneously on several different frequencies: the fact is that for the “work” on air and ground (sea) targets under different conditions, different kinds of frequencies are optimal. So, at a short distance, you can get a high resolution using Ka-band (26,5-40 GHz, wavelength from 1,13 to 0,75, see), but for longer distances, the X-band is better (8-12 GHz, the wavelength is from 3,75 to 2,5 cm).

So, PFAR in general and H011M “Bars”, which is equipped with Su-30CM, in particular, allows you to attack a ground target at the same time using one radiation range and, at the same time, control the airspace (attack remote air targets) using another range. Thanks to these qualities (better accuracy, the ability to simultaneously operate in several modes and accompany / fire at several targets), the PFAR radar became a real revolution in comparison with the radars of the previous types.

And what about AFAR? As we have already said, the antenna of a radar-control system with a PPAR consists of a set of cells, each of which is a miniature radio wave emitter capable of, among other things, guiding them from different angles without mechanical turning. But the radar system with PFAR has only one receiver of radio waves - one, for all cells of a phased antenna.

So the fundamental difference between AFAR and PPAR is that each of its cells is not only a miniature emitter, but also a radiation receiver. This greatly expands the capabilities of AFAR in "different frequency" modes of operation, which allows for better quality control of space in comparison with PPAR. In addition, AFAR, being like PFAR, capable of simultaneously operating in different frequency modes, can at the same time perform EW functions, suppressing the work of the enemy’s radar: the PPAR does not have the last opportunity. In addition, having a large number of receivers, AFAR is more reliable. Thus, AFAR is certainly better than PFAR, and the future of the Radar Control System, of course, is beyond AFAR. However, AFAR does not provide any overwhelming superiority over PFAR; moreover, PFAR also has advantages in some aspects. So, radar control systems with PFAR have better efficiency at equal power, and in addition PFAR is banal cheaper.

Summarizing the above, we can say that the emergence of phased arrays has become a real revolution in the radar business - that PFAR, that AFAR in its capabilities leave the radars of previous generations far behind. But the difference between PFAR and AFAR, created at the same technological level, is far from being so great, although, of course, AFAR has certain advantages and is more promising as a direction for the development of radar equipment.

But where did the point of view then come from that domestic FFARs are completely uncompetitive for foreign AFAR? According to the author, the thing is this: in most cases, experts compare AFAR with radars that have a mechanical scan, and, of course, the “mechanics” in all of them lose to electronic scanning. At the same time, as is known, domestic PPAR (and Н011М “Bars” and the newest Х035 “Irbis”) have a mixed, electromechanical scheme. And that is why these types of radars automatically spread all the shortcomings of the radar-control system with mechanical scanning to domestic radars.

But the fact is that domestic PPAR does not work at all. Both Bars and Irbis use electronic scanning, and nothing else - in this respect they are no different from AFAR. However, phased arrays (that PFAR, that AFAR) have one, let's say, vulnerable spot. The fact is that in cases where a phased array cell is forced to send a signal at an angle greater than 40 degrees. The efficiency of the system begins to fall sharply and PFAR and AFAR no longer give out the detection range and the accuracy of tracking that they put on their passport. How to deal with it?

According to some reports, the Americans refined their cells so that they provide an overview of the azimuth and elevation to + - 60 hail, while the radar lattice remains stationary. We also added to this a hydraulic drive - as a result, the Su-35 radar control system, like the American AN / APG-77, installed on the Raptor, being stationary, provides electronic scanning for the same plus or minus 60 degrees, but there is an additional mode. When using a hydraulic booster, that is, when combining electronic scanning with mechanical antenna rotation, the Irbis is able to control targets no longer in the + -60 hail sector, but twice as large - + -120 hail!

In other words, the presence of a hydraulic actuator on domestic radar systems with a PPAR does not reduce them to radars of past generations, but on the contrary, gives them new capabilities that even some (if not all) foreign AFARs do not. This is an advantage, not a disadvantage, and meanwhile, very often when comparing domestic PPARs with foreign AFARs, they first spread out all the disadvantages of mechanical scanning!

Thus, if we take two identical modern fighters, install AFAR on one of them, and PFAR, which is equivalent in power and created on the same technological level, on the second one, the plane with AFAR will have some important additional capabilities, but a cardinal advantage over "Brother" with PFAR will not receive.

Alas, the key words here are "equal technological level." The problem of the Su-30M is that its Н011М “Bars” was created quite a long time ago, and does not reach the modern AFAR and PFAR. For example, we cited the above scan ranges (electronic and hydraulically driven) for the Irbis installed on the Su-35 - these are 60 and 120 degrees, but for Barça these ranges are already 45 and 70 degrees. "Bars" has a much lower power compared to the "Irbis". Yes, the Su-30CM radar is constantly being improved - until recently, the network featured a figure for detecting an aircraft with an 3 ESR radar. m in the forward hemisphere at a distance of 140 km and declared the ability to attack 4 targets at the same time, but today we see other numbers on the developer’s website - 150 km and 8 targets. But this cannot be compared with the indicators of “Irbis”, whose target detection range with EPR is 3 sq. M. comes to 400 km. "Bars" was made on the old element base, so that its mass is large for its capabilities, etc.



That is, the problem of the Su-30CM is not that it is equipped with a PPAR, and not AFAR, but that its PPAR represents yesterday this type of radar system - later we were able to create better samples. And the same is likely to apply to other systems of this outstanding aircraft. So, for example, the Su-30CM uses the OLS-30 optical-location station - this is an excellent system, but the Su-35 has received a more modern OLS-35.

Of course, all this can be replaced or improved. For example, today they are talking about using more powerful engines from Su-30 on the Su-35CM, which, of course, will significantly increase its maneuverability, thrust-to-weight ratio, etc. According to some reports, the head of the Institute of Instrument Engineering them. Tikhomirova talked about bringing the power of Barça to the level of the Irbis (quotes on the Internet, alas, could not be found). But ... as Bars do not modernize, you can’t reach it to the Irbis, and even if it were possible - the price of such a radar-control system would rise too, and will the military be ready for the rise of Su-30CM?

The life cycle of any high-quality military equipment goes through three stages. At first, it is ahead of the rest, or at least not inferior to the best world specimens. At the second stage, approximately in the middle of the life cycle, it becomes obsolete, but various kinds of improvements increase its capabilities, allowing it to more successfully compete with similar foreign weapons. And then comes the sunset, when already no economically viable modernization does not allow to “pull up” the possibilities to the level of competitors, and the equipment loses the ability to perform its tasks in full.

Yes, we talked about the fact that the Su-30CM plane with an open architecture, and even compared it with a modern computer. But any person who has worked with computer hardware will tell you that in the “life” of any computer there comes a moment when its further modernization loses its meaning, because already no “gadgets” will bring it to the level of user demand, and you need to buy a new one. And besides, you need to understand that everything is not exhausted by one avionics alone: ​​for example, stealth technologies are very important today (at least to make it difficult to hijack an aircraft with homing enemy missiles), but the Su-30CM glider was created without taking into account the requirements of “invisibility ".

Yes, Su-30CM today is approximately in the middle of its life cycle. Naval aviation of the Russian Navy in its “face” receives a multi-purpose aircraft capable of doing well with all its tasks - and so it will remain for a certain time. 10 years, maybe 15. But what will happen next?

After all, a combat aircraft is one of the most complicated machines that were created by mankind. Today, the life of a combat aircraft is not measured in years, but in decades - with proper care, fighters, bombers, attack aircraft, etc. able to remain in the ranks 30 years and even more. And, buying today Su-30CM in large quantities, we are through 15, well, let 20 face years with the fact that we have a large fleet of not physically old but obsolete and ineffective in combat aircraft. And this is probably the main question to the Su-30CM, as to the main naval aviation aircraft of the Russian Navy. But there are others.

To be continued ...
59 comments
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  1. -1
    18 September 2018 05: 27
    Il20 disappeared over the Mediterranean Sea.
    1. -1
      18 September 2018 10: 59
      Donetsk.
      According to the Ministry of Defense, the Il-20 was shot down by the S-200 complex by mistake, as Israeli planes attacked under the guise of our approaching aircraft. The missile was re-aimed, since the IL-20's EPR is much larger than that of the F-16 ... this is a setup and a clear provocation. It looks like the S-400 shot back to these "smart guys" ... And this is after the agreements with Erdogan on Idlib - an incident bailey, however ...
      1. +1
        18 September 2018 11: 08
        Dear bayard, there is a very lively discussion going on on the next branch, all that was missing was that they would still run here.
  2. +1
    18 September 2018 07: 38
    Of course, thanks to the author for the article, something interesting can be found out.
    But, in his analysis there is a very gross mistake, which concerns the comparative characteristics of the Su-30 with the Raptor and Su-35, such comparisons are simply inappropriate.
    The crew of the Su-30 consists of a pilot and navigator, navigator - in the classical sense of the word, a graduate of the Chelyabinsk VVAUSH, and therefore there can be no .......... they divide the functionality in halfhow the pilot and navigator can so distribute their duties is a big question. Everyone does his own thing, interacting closely with each other, nothing more.
    Therefore, if you put a navigator in a Su-35 or Raptor, it will be completely different aircraft, with different capabilities, and other strike and flight characteristics.
    1. +3
      18 September 2018 08: 18
      Quote: bober1982
      The crew of the Su-30 consists of a pilot and a navigator, a navigator - in the classical sense of the word, a graduate of the Chelyabinsk WWAUS, and therefore there can be no

      I can not agree
      "During a combat flight, the aircraft continuously maneuvers in speed, altitude, in poor visibility conditions, day or night," Vladimir Popov said. "They can fire at it from the ground, from the air, put up interference, but the pilot needs to , to break through the air defense system at a certain line and attack the target. Naturally, all attention at this time is focused on piloting. And the navigator-operator calmly searches and accompanies targets, launches missiles or drops bombs.

      RIA Novosti https://ria.ru/defense_safety/20180316/1516371828.html

      And Vladimir Popov, who says this, is an honored military pilot.
      1. 0
        18 September 2018 08: 28
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        I can not agree

        What exactly do not agree with? that the navigator is part of the Su-30 crew is not entirely clear.
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        And Vladimir Popov, who says this, is an honored military pilot.

        Honor and respect so that to say, although he said of course ....... about poor visibility, day and night ... But, after all, he correctly said: the pilot is piloting, and the navigator is dropping bombs, that’s all the functionality.
        1. +2
          18 September 2018 13: 50
          Quote: bober1982
          But, after all, he correctly said: the pilot is piloting, and the navigator is dropping bombs, that’s all the functionality.

          In any case, in Su-35 this is done by one person, not two
          1. -1
            18 September 2018 14: 03
            Why then a navigator in a carriage?
        2. +5
          18 September 2018 16: 31
          bober1982
          As for the navigators on the Su 30, MiG 31, they do not launch rockets, do not drop bombs (MiG 31 naturally do not touch the bombs). They search for targets, detect, capture, and according to the navigator and sight, the pilot (ship commander) launches missiles or drops bombs ..

          And the second cabin on the Su 30 for the navigator, if my memory serves me, appeared because of the Indians' hotel rooms for their MKI .... Ours then went along this path, less difficult ...
          But the next project, Su 35, was done with one cabin ...

          I don’t understand the reason for the debate in this topic on the functionality between the front and rear cab?
          My opinion is that the navigator on the Su Z0 is not needed, but it turned out how it happened ....
          1. +4
            18 September 2018 18: 54
            Quote: NN52
            As for the navigators on the Su 30, MiG 31, they do not launch rockets, do not drop bombs (MiG 31 naturally do not touch the bombs)

            The navigator on the Su-30, and the navigator on the MiG-31, as they say, are two big differences. You talk like an air defense officer on the MiG-31 as a navigator, a kind of pilot-operator fly, they only prepare the navigator by name, and prepare them in the flight school, and not in the navigational school.
            As for which of the crew members specifically throws a bomb (launches a rocket) - throws the crew, not the pilot or navigator.
            Quote: NN52
            And the second cabin on the Su 30 for the navigator, if my memory serves me, appeared from behind the hotel desks of the Indians for their MKI.

            Well, right, and because of the Indians?
            Quote: NN52
            My opinion is that the navigator on the Su Z0 is not needed, but it turned out how it happened ....

            Again, back to Air Defense Aviation
            1. +5
              18 September 2018 19: 16
              Once again, I will write, I do not understand your conclusions ...
              When they arrived, if the question or flies in on the piloting technique, then the front cockpit is to blame, if the interruption is interrupted, then the back cockpit ...
              Everyone answered individually, who are in front of the deputy on the flight, who are in front of the regiment’s chief navigator ...
              And didn’t understand something about navigational, not navigational?
              Our guys were written off for hard work from Armavir, and they went to Stavropol to the Navigation Department, to 31 in the back cabin ..
              What did you finish and when? If not a secret of course?

              And by the way about the Indians ... Yes, precisely because of them.
              1. +4
                18 September 2018 19: 28
                Quote: NN52
                All answered individually

                ?????? No words, but they still say - Air Force, wonderland.
                Quote: NN52
                What did you finish and when?

                FACILITY finished, for a long time, was issued even under Pal Stepanich Kutakhov.
                What we will argue, all the same we will not argue, good luck, health.
                1. +6
                  18 September 2018 22: 08
                  bober1982
                  Vladimir
                  My respect and respect to you. drinks . Health.
                  AVVAKUL named after the Chief Marshal of Aviation Kutakhov P.S. - 1993
                  1. +3
                    19 September 2018 08: 13
                    Dmitry, and my respect and respect!
      2. 0
        11 December 2018 22: 24
        Author! And what is your opinion on the project of small-sized carrier-based fighters that were offered by Sukhoi? Can they replace MiGs and 33s?
    2. +3
      18 September 2018 13: 48
      Quote: bober1982
      The crew of the Su-30 consists of a pilot and navigator, the navigator is in the classical sense of the word, a graduate of the Chelyabinsk VVAUSH, and therefore there can be no .......... they share the functional in half, how the pilot and navigator can do this to distribute their duties is a big question. Everyone is doing his own thing, interacting closely with each other, nothing more.

      PMSM, in this case, it was understood that the pilot and navigator double room machines halve the functionality of the pilot single room a machine that is in one person forced to deal with the affairs of a pilot, navigator and operator of weapons systems - because distribute their duties he simply has no one. smile
      1. +2
        18 September 2018 14: 15
        Quote: Alexey RA
        pilot and navigator of a two-seater car halves the functionality of a pilot of a single-seater car

        They cannot divide this same functional in half, there are duties of the crew commander, and duties of the navigator of the crew, which are defined by various numerous documents, manuals, instructions, manuals, manuals, etc. This is, as the author of the article put it, functional.
        Su-30 and Su-35 are completely different machines, and comparing them, all the more so in detail and to put it mildly illiterate, looks strange somehow, this also applies to comparing Su-30 with the Raptor
        1. +3
          18 September 2018 14: 36
          Quote: bober1982
          They cannot divide this same functional in half, there are duties of the crew commander, and duties of the navigator of the crew, which are defined by various numerous documents, manuals, instructions, manuals, manuals, etc. This is, as the author of the article put it, functional.

          Well, let's go from the opposite: a single-seater pilot is forced to combine the functionality of a crew commander and a navigator.
          Navigator of the crew (pilot-navigator, pilot-operator, single-seat pilot) is responsible for solving in flight tasks of navigation and combat use

          Which in a two-seater is divided into two crew members.
          Quote: bober1982
          Su-30 and Su-35 are completely different machines, and to compare them, all the more so in detail and to put it mildly illiterate

          Both the Su-30 and Su-35 are multifunctional fighters. And the Su-35 pilot will have to solve the tasks of navigation and combat use in the same way - but on his own. Moreover, the armament range of the Su-30 and Su-35 is approximately the same - both carry anti-ship missiles, air-to-surface missiles and KAB.
          1. +2
            18 September 2018 14: 52
            Quote: Alexey RA
            Well, let's go from the opposite: a single-seater pilot is forced to combine the functionality of a crew commander and a navigator.

            I totally agree.
            Quote: Alexey RA
            Which in a two-seater is divided into two crew members.

            I don’t agree here, if I say this to any official from among the commanders, they’ll simply mumble me, there simply can’t be such a separation. The crew is responsible first and foremost for solving combat missions (if something goes wrong), they will start muzzling First of all, the pilot, as a commander, then the navigator, in the second place.
            Quote: Alexey RA
            And the Su-35 pilot will have to solve the problems of navigation and combat use in the same way - but by himself

            I agree, but these tasks will differ from those tasks that the Su-30
            Quote: Alexey RA
            Moreover, the range of weapons for the Su-30 and Su-35 is approximately the same - both carry anti-ship missiles, air-to-surface missiles and KAB.

            This nomenclature is approximately the same for everyone, even for the Su-24, Su-25 - the same, as if, missiles
            1. +2
              18 September 2018 15: 10
              Quote: bober1982
              I agree, but these tasks will differ from those tasks that the Su-30

              Judging by Syria - the difference is small.

              Hmeimim. Preparing for the departure of the Su-35S - OFAB-250-270 suspension.
              1. +2
                18 September 2018 15: 15
                Quote: Alexey RA
                OFAB-250-270.

                Good old OFAB-250-270
            2. +3
              18 September 2018 15: 20
              Quote: bober1982
              Well, let's go from the opposite: a single-seater pilot is forced to combine the functionality of a crew commander and a navigator.

              I totally agree.

              Then what is the essence of your objections? In that
              Quote: bober1982
              these tasks will be different from those performed by Su-30

              This, excuse me, how? :))))) That is, we have two multi-functional fighters for which the tasks are completely different? :)))))
              1. +1
                18 September 2018 18: 58
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                That is, we have two multi-functional fighters in which the tasks are completely different ?:

                Yes, these are different planes, and their combat missions are different, and therefore made double.
      2. +3
        18 September 2018 14: 31
        When a navigator is put into the crew, the combat capabilities of the aircraft increase, and not primitive ........ someone that bisects ......, the navigator does such work that the pilot cannot do.
        So it was with the Su-17 and Su-24, both worked on the ground, but the impact capabilities of the latter were certainly higher.
        1. +4
          18 September 2018 16: 46
          That is, the combat capabilities of the Su 35 With one pilot lower than that of the Su 30 with the navigator?
          Something like that .....
          On MiG 31, a navigator is needed like air, without it there is no way ....
          1. +1
            18 September 2018 17: 38
            Automation in the Su-35 is higher ....
            1. +5
              18 September 2018 19: 03
              Zaurbek

              You are wrong ... At this stage, that the Su 35, that the Su 30 CM are all almost the same, in automation ...
          2. +3
            18 September 2018 19: 09
            Quote: NN52
            That is, the combat capabilities of the Su 35 With one pilot lower than that of the Su 30 with the navigator?

            Aircraft solve different problems, the Su-35 is not needed for this reason, and these aircraft have different capabilities, not lower or higher.
            Quote: NN52
            On MiG 31, a navigator is needed like air, without it there is no way ....

            Out of sheer curiosity, is the task of piloting an airplane the responsibility of the second crew member on the MiG-31? train? check this most navigational piloting?
            1. +5
              18 September 2018 19: 32
              bober1982

              Question one: what different tasks do the Su 30CM and Su 35C solve?
              Question two: how are these planes so critically different?
              As for the 31 ... The second is not responsible for piloting, he does not know how. And do not train.
              And what is from you, this is navigational piloting, for curiosity?
              All navigation at 31 is located in the rear cabin, I was without a rear, as without arms and brains ... Everything is driven into the rear cabin ...
              1. 0
                19 September 2018 07: 10
                The Su-35S radar seems to be more powerful or equivalent to Migu31.
  3. +3
    18 September 2018 07: 57
    It seems like the main difference between AFAR is the presence of radio signal amplifiers in each cell. And the range of AFAR capabilities is much wider, including the ability to work in stealth mode, electronic warfare mode, communications, ultra-high-definition mapping. And the mechanical part of PFAR besides Su30SM is in Eurofighter and Gripen. To increase the power of AFAR, there is the prospect of using monolithic integrated circuits based on gallium nitride; the truth is not yet implemented in aviation.
  4. -2
    18 September 2018 08: 59
    I liked that the author began to add an important element to the table articles as a visual representation of information, which is clearly not enough for authors at VO.
    Honestly, it would be nice if VO isn’t the author, he already writes very well, add diagrams to the tables, and links to sources with a list at the end of each article, as is customary in scientific publications, in my opinion, this is noticeable would raise the level of both articles and their discussion.
    Well it is, dreams smile
    In fact, I would like to clarify that for F-22 nozzles do not deviate in the vertical plane, but at an angle to the vertical — 18 degrees, it seems, each independently of the other.
    This makes it possible to use super maneuverability in the horizontal plane, at least partially.
  5. -4
    18 September 2018 09: 45
    A plane with AFAR will have some important additional capabilities, but it will not receive a cardinal advantage over its “brother” with VFAR

    This is how to say it.
    In some AFARs, the Americans implemented the LPI mode (in any case, they claim to have implemented :), which gives noticeable advantages.
    1. +1
      18 September 2018 17: 36
      This mode has long been used on our AFAR on air defense systems.
  6. 0
    18 September 2018 17: 36
    Su-33 - sadly admit it, but this plane is outdated. Its combat capabilities are not too superior to those of the classic Su-27. Modernization, of course, made it better by expanding the range of used ammunition and giving the ability to destroy ground targets, but this is not enough to speak of the Su-33 as a modern, fully-fledged fighter.

    What prevents to upgrade its avionics to the upgraded Su27?
    1. +1
      18 September 2018 19: 34
      Quote: Zaurbek
      What prevents to upgrade its avionics to the upgraded Su27?

      Nothing. In addition, the modernized Su-27 (CM3 inclusive) are also outdated
      1. 0
        19 September 2018 07: 11
        But these are two big differences and no one bothers to undergo another modernization. There is everything for this.
    2. 0
      19 September 2018 13: 28
      Quote: Zaurbek
      What prevents to upgrade its avionics to the upgraded Su27?

      They tried. The Su-33M was so overweight that it could not take off from a springboard with a combat load. They even wanted to remove the airborne gun. Fortunately for deck pilots, the project died.
  7. 0
    18 September 2018 19: 31
    I read both articles in a chock, thanks. But, having told in detail about the principle of constructing the avionics of the Su-30SM aircraft according to the open architecture and comparing the radar stations of the aircraft, the issue of the possibility of installing the radar with AFAR NO35 "Irbis" on the Su-30SM is not touched upon. After all, the Su-30SM and Su-35S aircraft are from the same design bureau and are very close in size.
    And inaccuracy: "... radar antennas with PFAR consist of many cells, each of which is a miniature radiator of radio waves, capable, among other things, to direct them at different angles without mechanical rotation." The radiation pattern of a single radiator (slot or dipole) is strictly fixed in space, but by controlling the group of radiators (in phase or in time), the direction of the common radiation front of the antenna pattern can be changed.
  8. 0
    19 September 2018 03: 18
    Very interesting article.
    However, in my opinion, the author completely undeservedly offended the MiG-31. Of course, this aircraft was not created as a classic aircraft gaining air supremacy, however:
    1) With a target detection range of type F-16 at 320 km (BM modification) with a practical range with one refueling (more on that later) at 5400 km, it is practically an AWACS aircraft to search for enemy aircraft carrier connections and issue target designation to the fleet.
    2) with a range of R-37 rockets of 300 km and a maximum speed of 3400 km / h, this is an almost perfect hockey killer. The detection range for these vehicles is approximately 400 versus 320, but the 100 km will overcome these 31 km in less than 2 minutes. Next, launch the R-37 and after another minute hokai fse. Neither the slow-moving and the low-maneuverable hockey have no chance to run away.
    3) Everything is also characteristic against superhornets with a combat load /
    4) MIG 31, when used correctly in combat, is an extremely difficult, if at all possible, target to intercept. Anything that is not stealth MiG will see and shoot / leave contact at a distance of 300 + km. With the F-35, there may be difficulties BUT: The maximum speed of the MIG is more than 1,5 times higher than the speed of the F-35 => F-31 cannot catch up with the MIG 35. The maximum speed of the fastest missile in the F-35 AIM-120-4M. MIG-31 - 2,75M. this reduces the range on the catch-up courses from 180 to less than 90 km (in fact, much less, since in the calculation I took the maximum speed as constant throughout the entire flight of the rocket, but it still has an acceleration section). The rest of the missiles in service with the F-35 have even lower speeds and ranges. Thus, in order to intercept the MIG-31 F-35, it is necessary to get into the zone <80 km, where it will be detected by the OLS or, luckily enough, it will meet with the MIG-31 on a collision course. The practice of the Second World War, by the way, shows that speed and height are >> maneuverability in air combat.

    All of the above is my personal opinion :)
    1. +1
      19 September 2018 11: 57
      Quote: Newone
      With a range of detection of targets of the F-16 type in 320 km (BM modification) with a practical range with one refueling (more on that later) in 5400 km it is practically an AWACS aircraft

      Alas, this is not so. Usually similar radar ranges are indicated not in the search mode, but in a special one for guidance, when the viewing sector is of the order of 10 * 10 degrees. Such a search mode is useless.
      Quote: Newone
      Next, launch the P-37 and after another minute hokai fse.

      not quite so - since the Hokai walk under the cover of the Growlers, the latter cuts the electronic warfare and the FSE rocket.
      1. +1
        19 September 2018 12: 42
        Andrei
        Wikipedia says "target detection range", not tracking or targeting range. And I doubt that the plane whose task is to deal with small-sized low-flying objects and precisely with the AWACS aircraft detects the target at the shorter distances of its missiles.
        "the latter cuts in EW and FSE" In my opinion, you greatly overestimate the capabilities of EW. On the marching section, the rocket has inertial-radio command control, which, in principle, is difficult to drown out the electronic warfare. On the final semi-active-active guidance designed to defeat targets such as AWACS i.e. the most powerful source of electronic warfare in the air that there is, and how stable / unstable this guidance system is to electronic warfare interferences is an extremely controversial issue.
        Also, do not forget that growlers (but rather ordinary F-16s) will themselves be the objects of attack.
        In addition, any defense breaks through a massive attack. One missile will not cope - 5-10 will cope with 3 -5 instants.
        In any case, this will be a one-goal game, since there is simply nothing to punish the MIG-31, taking into account the attack range and its speed, to the enemy aircraft carrier group.
        1. +1
          19 September 2018 15: 56
          Quote: Newone
          Wikipedia says

          Sorry, but I'm not too interested in what is written on Wikipedia. I prefer to read the sites of the manufacturer of the equipment, and there it is clearly written - from the perspective of 100 square degrees, that is, the 10 sector at 10 grad. You can also read it if you go here https://www.niip.ru/catalog/eksportnaya-produktsiya/rlsu-irbis-e/
          I repeat - this is not murzilka, not analytics, this is the site of the creator of the radar station
          Quote: Newone
          And I doubt that the aircraft whose task is to deal with small-sized low-flying objects and just with the AWACS aircraft detects a target at distances shorter than the ranges of its missiles

          Alas, it’s true. MiG-31 radar is weaker than its missiles
          Quote: Newone
          In my opinion, you greatly overestimate the capabilities of electronic warfare.

          Just look at the chronicle of conflicts - and you will see how many times false targets and electronic warfare systems fooled their heads with GOS missiles (talking about anti-ship missiles).
          Quote: Newone
          At the end, semi-active active guidance designed to defeat targets such as AWACS

          The weakest moment. The fact is that the radiation power is inversely proportional to the square of the distance, that is, no matter how powerful the MiG-31 radar is, at a great distance it will lose in power to the nearby jammer.
          In general, remember how they crushed the Georgian air defense Khibiny.
          Quote: Newone
          In addition, any defense breaks through a massive attack. One missile will not cope - 5-10 will cope with 3 -5 instants.

          Yes, it is possible - but no one says that the MiG-31 is useless. I’m not proving anywhere that the MiG-31 is completely incapable of shooting down AWACS - I’m only saying that
          But an attempt to attack enemy fighters from long range with a high degree of probability will be doomed to failure, since with the timely detection of such missiles, modern electronic warfare equipment combined with an energetic anti-missile maneuver reduce the probability of hitting the target to very small values.
          1. +2
            19 September 2018 20: 15
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            in the view of 100 square degrees, that is, a sector of 10 by 10 degrees.

            not this way.
            PPS within the zone of 100 deg ^ 2 for targets with EPR = 3m ^ 2
            1.PSP- in the front hemisphere
            2.This will not be 10gr * 10gr, but a solid angle at which a circle of radius R is visible from an arbitrary point in space (projection of an arbitrary circular cone), at a given distance from the target

            "the solid angle is measured by the ratio of the area of ​​that part of the sphere centered at the apex of the angle, which is cut by this solid angle, to the square of the radius of the sphere" (in the general case)
            Omega (such a letter) = 2 * pi * (1- (H / SQRT (R ^ 2 + H ^ 2))
            For the declared data of the Research Institute V.V. Tikhomirova
            100 deg. ^ 2 / or (pi / 180) ^ 2 / = 2 * 180 deg / or pi / (1- (350 000 / (R ^ 2 + 350 000 ^ 2))
            Having calculated R, it is possible to determine in which zone (circle) the “Irbis-E” target will be detected (radar) with a given EPR of 3m ^ 2 at a distance of 350 km (or closer)
            But definitely not in the sector
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            10 to 10 degrees.

            PySy. this is for a straight circular cone

            for an oblique (it is on the right) the formula is more complicated

            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            MiG-31 radar is weaker than its missiles

            and the BM has a Zaslon-AM SUV based on the Baguette-55 with the upgraded RP-31AM radar
            the capabilities of the new Barrier allow finding subtle targets with an EPR of 3 m2 (4th generation fighters) at a distance of 320 km and hitting them at 280 km.
            EPR 1m ^ 2 detection range = 200-230 km, stealth fighter F-35A - about 140 km

            in the same "100 deg ^ 2 in PPS"
            very worthy. Which air-based missiles are stronger than this radar?
            and in the future it will be delivered on the basis of Н036, but it is better .. the "huge" nose cone makes it possible to install a powerful onboard radar with a canvas diameter of 1,4 m and more than 2000 transmit-receive modules, made both on the basis of standard arsenide-galium conductors, and on the basis of promising ceramic covers with silver or platinum conductors ...
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            (talking about RCC).

            the target is a ship type ... well, a very large supply of mass (foil, air bags, angles, antenna field, etc., etc.) and volume. and energy there is not dead 17 kW of the aircraft
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            that is, no matter how powerful the MiG-31 radar station is, at a great distance it will lose in power to the nearby jammer.

            To do this, the jammer must be located m / near the radar and the target, on the "path" of the reflected signal, which is difficult (even if it is on the attacked aircraft)
            and if it’s somewhere not there (not on this line), then ... then we get a tale about jamming the GPS satellite signal on the receiver of the aircraft (flying somewhere in azimuth and at an elevation angle of some kind) by the ground station, well, or Khibiny + Cook + fans
            wink
            1. +1
              20 September 2018 21: 54
              Good afternoon!
              Quote: Aibolit
              It will not be 10GR * 10GR, but a solid angle, under which a circle of radius R is visible from an arbitrary point in space (projection of an arbitrary circular cone), at a given distance from the target

              OK thanks! Let's use the simplest formula Omega (solid angle in steradians) = Area cut out by this solid angle / radius of the sphere squared. Am I using the formula correctly? If yes, then the radius of the sphere is 350 km, the square, respectively, 122 500 sq. Km; 100 sq degrees = 0,030462 steradian, total surface area to be cut is 3731,59 sq km,
              If we simplify the cut-out part of the sphere to a circle (which is wrong, because it is curved), then the radius of the circle will be 34,46 km (in fact, less because of the curvature that I did not take into account).
              total we have a right triangle with the adjacent leg 350 km and the opposite - 34,46 km, respectively, the angle will be 5,63 degrees. That is, we have a ray not 10 at 10 grad, as I wrote, but 11,26 at 11,26 grad, but given that we took a circle larger than it should, the correct value will be between these two digits
              And was it worth it to tenths of a degree to fence a garden? laughing hi drinks
              1. +1
                21 September 2018 01: 05
                Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
                And was it worth it to tenths of a degree to fence a garden?

                L'exatitude est lapolitesse desrois./I am modest, so I consider myself to be in this circle /
                1. you have a calculation error, even on your knee
                2.1,26 * 1,26 hail = this is quite a lot
                I actually wrote about the "difference between AFAR and PFAR". But - the quack. auto-editor does not skip, maybe he did not like the term "YBL".
                "This greatly expands the capabilities of AFAR operation in" different frequency "modes of operation"
                Combined HEADLIGHTS: independent beam shaping and electric beam control from one aperture at several frequencies.
                Well, grumbling
                I agree
                Quote: Vl Nemchinov
                I like to read the detailed analysis in Andrey's articles (these are not K. Ryabov's "copywriting" attempts).
                hi
                1. 0
                  21 September 2018 13: 33
                  Quote: Aibolit
                  you have a calculation error, even on your knee

                  I would be very grateful if you indicate - which one, for that, and gave the calculation. hi
                  Quote: Aibolit
                  1,26 * 1,26 hail = this is quite a lot

                  It depends on the context - in our case, this is not the search mode of the radar, respectively, in the framework of this discussion is of little significance. Unless, of course, in my calculations I was not mistaken so critical that there are not 11,6, but 116 degrees :)))
                  Quote: Aibolit
                  Well, grumbling

                  Personally, I always welcome constructive criticism, and if it is also supported by calculations, then eo is just wonderful! hi
          2. 0
            20 September 2018 00: 07
            Andrei
            1) We kind of discuss the MiG-31 and there they installed the Barrier-M radar, and not IRBIS E.
            2) According to your logic, the F-22 Raptor is a useless aircraft since its main armament 6 AIM-120 in the guidance system are similar to those discussed by the R-37, and air battle tactics just prescribe an attack from a long range. If you accept your hypothesis, then any aircraft with EW containers installed (and on the SU-34, for example, the EW system is built into the glider) is invulnerable to the F-22 (well, for all other American fighters, too, by the way) and can only be hit in near zone, where our super-maneuverable SUs have a recognized advantage. Sorry, BUT IT'S UNPROBABLE.
            And yet the ship's electronic warfare system is orders of magnitude (hundreds of times) superior to similar systems of any aircraft. Nevertheless, an anti-ship missile attack (with the same harpoons) is considered more than dangerous and the NEED to knock anti-ship missiles is recognized.
            3) Hawkeye F-16's "energetic anti-missile maneuver" and is not at all adapted to "energetic anti-missile maneuvers". Super hornets with anti-ship missiles, by the way, too. Either shed the load and walk away, or die.
            4) On the R-37 own active radar designed to work on targets in the conditions of active electronic countermeasures. The hokey EW system of course reduces the likelihood of missile hits, but it is not wise to absolutize this defense.

            I repeat: EW reduces the likelihood of a hockey hit, but this problem is solved by increasing the number of attacking missiles. At the same time, hockey is a critical link in the protection of the AUG and its destruction immediately creates a window of vulnerability for the entire order for a massive attack of RCC Granite, for example.
            1. 0
              20 September 2018 22: 00
              Quote: Newone
              We kind of discuss the MiG-31 and there they installed the Barrier-M radar, and not the IRBIS E

              So indicators are considered similarly
              Quote: Newone
              According to your logic, the F-22 Raptor is a useless aircraft

              Not quite.
              Quote: Newone
              since its main weaponry, the 6 AIM-120 in the guidance system, is similar to that discussed by the P-37, and the tactics of air combat just prescribe an attack from a long range.

              Yeah. But here are the chances of him hitting someone in this attack not so much, therefore - welcome to the BVB!
              Quote: Newone
              If you accept your hypothesis, then any aircraft with EW containers installed (and on the SU-34, for example, the EW system is built into the glider) is invulnerable to the F-22 (well, for all other American fighters, too, by the way) and can only be hit in near zone, where our super-maneuverable SUs have a recognized advantage. Sorry, BUT IT'S UNPROBABLE.

              Sorry, but this is more than likely - especially if you look at the statistics of the destruction of air targets by missiles of different ranges over recent conflicts.
              Even the same AMRAAMs usually run almost in line of sight. The cases when the aircraft were shot down by AMRAAM from a distance of several tens of kilometers (provided that the enemy has no electronic warfare at all) can be counted on the fingers, one hand is enough. The number of goals shot by Sea Sparrow, can not be compared to Sidewinder, etc.
              Quote: Newone
              And yet the ship's electronic warfare system is orders of magnitude (hundreds of times) superior to similar systems of any aircraft.

              This is completely unimportant - only the power on the covered object is important
              1. +1
                21 September 2018 00: 44
                1. “So indicators are considered similarly”
                Andrey what indicators? You take a deliberately worsened version of another system, apply your own interpretation of the indicators indicated there, declare that for unknown reasons the mode indicated on the manufacturer’s website is unsuitable for target detection (which in itself is very strange, since the buyers of weapons and the employees of the Tikhomirov Institute themselves are much better than you and I know about the modes of radar use and so obviously will not be mistaken) and after all this heap of assumptions you make a conclusion about the Barrier-BM. And then blame me for using Wikipedia ...
                2. "But here is the chance he has to hit someone in this attack is not that many, because - welcome to the BVB!"
                But for some reason, the Americans don’t think so, and in their doctrines they prescribe the defeat of targets from long distances.
                3. “If you look at the statistics of the destruction of air targets by missiles of different ranges over the past conflicts”
                And I looked. Here's an example for the most relevant - Yugoslavia: https://military.wikireading.ru/13992.
                7 aircraft were hit by AIM-120, 3 - AIM-9 sidewinder. It somehow does not agree with your opinion. But the opinion of the Pentagon generals who gave the task for the F-22 agrees: 6 AIM-120 and only 2 AIM-9.
                4. “This is completely unimportant - only the power on the covered object is important”
                2 has more power on a covered object at ships than what?

                Well, new arguments on the topic:
                When attacking hockey covered by growlers, the MiG-31 can use not only missiles with an active seeker, but simultaneously with them anti-radar missiles operating on radiation in broadband mode. EW aircraft, whatever one may say, a powerful source of radio emission, are an excellent target for anti-radar missiles. The Kh-31PD is of course more designed to work against ground-based radars, but it can also be aimed at other sources of radio emission.
                Then they launched an anti-radar missile with an active seeker. Turn on Growlers ali hockey EW-will receive in the goiter anti-radar. Do not turn on - get the usual. So they will have games in an instant. Only a hockey player with growlers rate their life, and in an instant, the price of missiles.
                1. 0
                  21 September 2018 14: 36
                  Quote: Newone
                  Andrey what indicators?

                  Let's sort through the items
                  Quote: Newone
                  You take a deliberately degraded version of another system

                  No, because for 100 years we have not worsened our export arms (except if it is required by international treaties, as with the Caliber)
                  Quote: Newone
                  apply your own interpretation of the indicators indicated there

                  So my interpretation is correct :))) The fact that I did not know that we are talking about solid angle does not fundamentally change anything
                  Quote: Newone
                  You declare that for unknown reasons the mode indicated on the manufacturer’s website is unsuitable for target detection (which is very strange in itself, since the buyers of weapons and the employees of the Tikhomirov Institute themselves are much better aware of you about the use of radars and will not be so mistaken)

                  Again. The radar has several modes of operation. One of them is search, when the search is carried out in an angle accessible to the radar (60 * 60 degrees when electronically scanned, 60 * 120 degrees when combined for Irbis E). Another of them is used when a large and kind AWAC flies nearby, which tells the coordinates of the target. Then the radar station can, having formed a narrow beam, search for a target at the coordinates indicated by it at a much greater range than it can detect in a search mode (the so-called target trace). This is precisely what 100 square degrees confirm, and the fact that this is a beam + - 11,26 grad and not + - 10 grad as I stated at the beginning does not change anything.
                  So for a very long time, manufacturers indicate precisely the second range. Because it is longer, and advertising is the engine of trade. This is a common technique.
                  Quote: Newone
                  But for some reason, the Americans don’t think so, and in their doctrines they prescribe the defeat of targets from long distances.

                  Yes, but in practice - somehow it doesn’t grow together
                  Quote: Newone
                  “If you look at the statistics of the destruction of air targets by missiles of different ranges over recent conflicts”
                  And I looked. Here's an example for the most relevant - Yugoslavia: https://military.wikireading.ru/13992.
                  7 aircraft are hit by AIM-120, 3 by AIM-9 sidewinder. It somehow does not agree with your opinion.

                  You are not looking. You look at the statistics of the defeat of different types of missiles. Then you make the assumption that since AMRAAM is a medium-range missile, then you hit it with targets in long-range aerial combat (DVB). So, this assumption is wrong. Quite often missiles for DVB shoot at the BVB. For example, in two Vietnamese wars, as well as in the Doomsday War and the Lebanon War, US and Israeli aircraft destroyed 73 enemy aircraft using a medium-range air-launched missile system with PARGSN. Thus, medium-range missiles with a bang lost not only short-range air-launched missiles (they shot down 308 aircraft) but also cannons (144 victories). But the main thing is that out of the 73 victories achieved by the Air Defense Forces with the PARGSN, 69 planes were shot down ... after visual identification of the enemy, that is, in the BVB!
                  And here, for example, in Yugoslavia, the range from which Serbian aircraft strayed AMRAAM for the most part is unknown, except when AMRAAM and Sidewinder were simultaneously released on the MiG-29, but the first was successful - that is, again in the BVB.
                  Quote: Newone
                  But the opinion of the Pentagon generals who gave the task for the F-22 agrees: 6 AIM-120 and only 2 AIM-9.

                  Apparently, this is how they perceive the effectiveness of these missiles - 6 for that. to bring down a plane in DVB and 2 - in BVB :))))
                  1. 0
                    21 September 2018 14: 42
                    Quote: Newone
                    2 has more power on a covered object at ships than what?

                    Sorry, the replica is not clear. I talked about the fact that if the signal power of the REB station at the target is higher than the radar of the ship (remember the square of the distance!) Then everything will work
                    Quote: Newone
                    Well, new arguments on the topic

                    Sorry, but the arguments are off topic. I talked about the fact that the MiG-31 is not designed to deal with enemy tactical aircraft, but you replaced this postulate with the fight against AWACS aircraft.
                    Quote: Newone
                    Then they launched an anti-radar missile with an active seeker. Turn on growlers ali hockey EW- will receive in the goiter anti-radar

                    It is solved elementarily - at first the fighter of an individual electronic warfare puts interference, the anti-radar is aimed at it, when approaching, it cuts the hokai electronic warfare and the fighter goes silent, and the rocket goes nowhere
  9. 0
    19 September 2018 07: 20
    Characteristics of the radar H035 Irbis
    Sources [2]

    Frequency Range: X
    HEADLAMP Diameter: 900 mm
    Objectives:
    Passage escort: up to 30 air or 4 ground
    Simultaneous shelling: up to 8 targets - missiles with ARGSN (for example, R-77) or 2 targets for missiles with PRGSN (highlight for RGS 27-RGS); up to 2 ground targets controlled by air-ground weapons
    Target Detection Range:
    with an EPR of 3 m² on the opposite angles of 350-400 km, on the catch up to 150 km; [2]
    Viewing angles in azimuth and elevation ± 60 ° (electronic), ± 120 ° (with hydraulic drive);
    Roll 90 °; [4]
    Average pulse power: 5 kW;
    Peak pulse power: 20 kW;
    Discrete continuous power of illumination: 2 kW;
    Resolution when mapping 1 m;



    The Zaslon radar station has been modified by NIIP to a level close to the technical level of the Zaslon-M complex, created for the MiG-31M aircraft. The MiG-31BM station is capable of detecting typical air targets at almost twice the range. The detection range of fighter-class air targets has been increased to 320 km, and the range of their destruction - up to 280 km. The tests demonstrated the possibility of destroying enemy aircraft in long-range missile combat at a distance of about 280 km
  10. 0
    20 September 2018 09: 01
    And about what the article? About the sea of ​​unknown destination, which only drowns airplanes, or about the Su-30 radar, which (and the Su-30CM and its radar), should, for good, appear not in the 2012, but in the 2002.
  11. 0
    20 September 2018 09: 11
    The hero in the infantry: I went to bayonets more than once, destroyed dozens of enemy soldiers, killed the commander.
    The hero in the tank forces: He spent a lot of battles, destroyed heaps of enemy equipment and manpower, died to the last leading battle in a wrecked car.
    Hero in the Air Force: made hundreds of combat missions, shot down a mass of enemy aircraft, or conducted dozens of ground target attacks, died, knocking down an enemy bomber with a ram after exhausting the ammunition.
    The hero in the navy: he drank the whole war in the port, went out to sea a couple of times, fired at someone, returned with nothing, after defeat he heroically sank his ship (and no, it's not just about ours, it's international).

    This is the question of whether we need to tear off such a valuable resource as combat aircraft from the air force and it is not clear where to transfer them.
  12. +1
    20 September 2018 19: 23
    I like to read the detailed analysis in Andrey's articles (these are not K. Ryabov's "copywriting" attempts). I would very much like his review article on the topic - what is currently preventing the leadership of the Russian Navy from analyzing and updating to the level of modern requirements of such not deservedly forgotten projects as 1134BF and 11560, as the main air defense / PLO ship of the KUG guard, or so on. . 1077 (armed with the "Fort" air defense missile system and 6 helicopters) as a cruiser-helicopter carrier, and the cruiser pr. 1165 "Fugas" or pr. 1293, as a strike RC KUG ?! I would also be interested to know if it is possible, in principle, for the "Fort", "Polyment-Redut", "Shtil-1" and "Pantsir-M" air defense systems, to teach how to work with the new MF radar "Zaslon" (instead of "Polyment") to combine air defense systems, air defense systems of different ranges into a single circuit?
    1. 0
      21 September 2018 17: 31
      Quote: Vl Nemchinov
      I like to read the detailed analysis in Andrey's articles (these are not K. Ryabov's "copywriting" attempts)

      Thank you!
      Quote: Vl Nemchinov
      what is currently hampering the leadership of the Russian Navy to analyze and refine to the level of modern requirements of such undeservedly forgotten projects as the 1134BF and 11560, as the main KUG air defense / defense PLO ship

      With all due respect to these projects, they are completely outdated - primarily in terms of internal "stuffing" - that is, the main and auxiliary mechanisms, equipment, including such as the SAC, for example, weapons are also not the same, and ... theoretically , they can be redesigned, but it is practically easier to create a new ship.
      Quote: Vl Nemchinov
      or other 1077 (armed with the Fort and 6 helicopters) as a helicopter cruiser

      This is already a conceptual question, but the fact is that for a round-the-clock duty a pair of 6 helicopters is not enough, and without such an opportunity, apparently no one wants to fence a helicopter carrier
      Quote: Vl Nemchinov
      and the cruiser pr. 1165 "Fugas" or pr. 1293, as a shock RK KUG ?!

      In principle, all the same comments.
      Quote: Vl Nemchinov
      Is it possible, in principle, for the Fort, Poliment-Redut, Shtil-1 and Pantsir-M air defense systems to teach how to work with the new MF Zaslon radar

      It is possible, but the fact is that the Barrier is not suitable for some large ships. This is a good, but weak radar, which is the target with an EPR 1 sq.m. sees everything on 75 km. In general, such a radar, taking into account the mass size, is good for a corvette, but no more
  13. 0
    24 September 2018 17: 48
    I was very surprised by this article. Usually the author is so courteous and balanced, but something happened here. Any product can be branded by shit, comparing it with its own development. Comparison with the Raptor is all the more inappropriate, it is still, as it were, the best western, and possibly world fighter. Comparing the e Su-30CM with the F-15, current / promising. Rid him with M Pygnim, Hornet, since you are talking about the fleet.
  14. 0
    24 September 2018 17: 58
    R-37 do not cope very well with the destruction of tactical aircraft


    Do they exist in the troops?

    during the “Desert Storm”, the carrier-based F / A-18 Hornet was shot down by an Iraqi MiG-25 using a short-range SD


    The 46th mass under 500 kg, it can not be a short-range missile.

    19 MiG-29KР, 3 MiG-29KUBР


    Where did such strange notation come from?

    At the same time, the Su-30SM is equipped with the weakest engines among all the above aircraft: its AL-31FP has a maximum thrust of 7 kgf and afterburning - 770 kgs, while the Su-12 engine has 500 and 35 kgs, and F-8A - 800 14 and 500 22 ​​kgf respectively. Therefore, one should not be surprised that the speed of the Su-10SM is lower than modern heavy fighters - while the Su-500 and F-15A are capable of accelerating to 876M, the limit of the Su-30SM is only 35M


    The thrust has nothing to do with it, for the same MiG-25 it is at H = 20 M = 2,83 "whole" ≈2x6 tf. The Su-30SM has a speed limit on the strength of the visor and OCHF.

    However, relatively weak engines adversely affect such an important indicator of the aircraft as thrust


    They will not be fighting at the airport, here you need to know the altitude and speed characteristics of the engines.