Naval Aviation of the Russian Navy: Current State and Prospects

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In this article, we will try to understand the current state and prospects of the marine aviation Russian Navy. Well, for starters, let's recall what domestic naval aviation was during the Soviet era.

As you know, for a number of different reasons the USSR in the construction of the naval fleet He didn’t bet on aircraft carriers, on deck aircraft. However, this does not mean that in our country they did not understand the importance of naval aviation in general - on the contrary! In the 80s of the last century, it was believed that this kind of force is one of the most important components of the navy. Navy aviation (more precisely, the Air Force of the Navy of the USSR, but for the sake of brevity, we will use the term "naval aviation" regardless of how it was specifically called in a particular historical period) was entrusted with many important tasks, in including:
1. Search and destroy:
- enemy missile and multipurpose submarines;
- surface connections of the enemy, including carrier strike groups, amphibious landings, convoys, naval strike and anti-submarine groups, as well as single warships;
- transports, aircraft and cruise missiles of the enemy;

2. Ensuring the deployment and actions of its fleet forces, including in the form of air defense of ships and fleet objects;

3. Conducting aerial reconnaissance, guidance and issuance of target designations to other branches of the Navy;

4. Destruction and suppression of objects of the air defense system in the flight lanes of their aircraft, in the areas of problem solving;

5. Destruction of naval base, ports and destruction of ships and transports in them;

6. Ensuring the landing of amphibious assault forces, reconnaissance and sabotage groups and other assistance to ground forces in coastal directions;

7. The setting of minefields, as well as mine action;

8. Conducting radiation and chemical intelligence;

9. Rescue crews in distress;

10. The implementation of air transport.

To this end, the following types of aviation were part of the USSR naval aviation:

1. Maritime Missile Aviation (MRA);

2. Anti-submarine aircraft (PLA);

3. Assault aircraft (ShA);

4. Fighter aircraft (AI);

5. Reconnaissance Aviation (RA).

And besides - also special-purpose aircraft, including transport, electronic warfare, anti-mine, search and rescue, communications, etc.

The number of naval aviation of the USSR was impressive in the best sense of the word: just by the beginning of the 90-s of the twentieth century, it included the 52 air regiment and 10 of individual squadrons and groups. They consisted of 1991 1 702 aircraft, including 372 bomber, equipped with cruise anti-ship missiles (Tu-16, Tu-22М2 and Tu-22М3), tactical aircraft of the planes (Su-966), and I-yan, I, I, I, I, and I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, made all of the planes of tactical aviation (I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I). , MiG-24, MiG-38 and other types of fighters), as well as 17 aircraft of other classes and 27 helicopters, and all - 23 364 aircraft and helicopters. At the same time, the basis of the strike power of naval aviation was sea missile divisions: their number is unknown to the author as of 455 g, but there were five such divisions in 2 g, which included 157 air regiments.

Well, then the Soviet Union was destroyed and its armed forces were divided between numerous "independent" republics, at once received state status. It must be said that naval aviation withdrew to the Russian Federation almost at full strength, but the Russian Federation could not contain such numerous forces. And now, by the middle of 1996, its composition was reduced by more than three times - to 695 aircraft, including 66 missile carriers, 116 anti-submarine aircraft, 118 fighters and attack aircraft, and 365 helicopters and special aircraft. And that was just the beginning. By 2008, maritime aviation continued to decline: unfortunately, we do not have exact data on its composition, but there were:

1. Sea-launched missile aviation - one regiment equipped with Tu-22М3 (as a part of the Northern Fleet). In addition, there was another mixed air regiment (568, on the Pacific Fleet), in which, along with two squadrons of Tu-22М3, there were also Tu-142МР and Tu-142М3;



2. Fighter aircraft - three air regiments, including the 279 airfield, designed to operate from the deck of the only Russian TAVKR "Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Kuznetsov." Naturally, the 279 military base was based on the SF, and the other two regiments belonged to the Baltic Fleet and the Pacific Fleet, armed with the Su-27 and MiG-31 fighters, respectively;

3. Attack aircraft - two regiments deployed in the Black Sea Fleet and BF, respectively, and armed with the Su-24 and Su-24Р aircraft;

4. Anti-submarine aircraft - everything is somewhat more complicated. We divide it into ground-based and ship-based aircraft:

- the main land antisubmarine aircraft are the 289 th separate mixed anti-submarine aviation regiment (IL-38, Ka-27, Ka-29 and Ka-8) helicopters and 73-I separate antisubmarine air squadron (Tu-142). But besides them, the anti-submarine aircraft IL-38 are in service (along with other aircraft) of three more mixed air regiments, and in one of them (917-y, BSF) there are also amphibious aircraft Be-12;

- ship-based anti-submarine aviation includes two naval anti-submarine regiments, and one separate squadron equipped with Ka-27 and Ka-29 helicopters;

5. Three mixed air regiments, in which, along with the IL-38 and Be-12 mentioned earlier, there are also a large number of transport and other non-combat aircraft and helicopters (An-12, An-24, An-26, Tu-134, Mi-8 helicopters ). Apparently, the only tactical rationale for their existence was that the aircraft that had survived the next round of “reforms” was reduced to a single organizational structure;

6. Transport Aviation - two separate transport aviation squadrons (An-2, An-12, An-24, An-26, An-140-100, Tu-134, IL-18, Il18-36, etc.)

7. A separate helicopter squadron - Mi-8 and Mi-24.

All in all, 13 air regiments and 5 individual air squadrons. Unfortunately, there are no precise data on the number of aircraft as of 2008, and it is difficult to derive them “empirically”. The fact is that the numerical composition of naval aviation connections “floats” to a certain extent: in 2008, the aviation division no longer comprised naval aviation, but during Soviet times the aviation division could consist of two or three regiments. In turn, the air regiment usually consists of 3 squadrons, but exceptions are possible here. In turn, the air squadron consists of several air links, and the air line can include an 3 or 4 aircraft or a helicopter. On average, an air squadron can count 9-12 airplanes, an aviation regiment - 28-32 aircraft, an air division - 70-110 aircraft.

Taking the numbers of the air regiment in 30 airplanes (helicopters) and the air squadron 12, we get the number of naval aviation of the Russian Navy in 450 airplanes and helicopters as of 2008. There is a feeling that this figure is too high, but even if it is correct, then In this case, it can be stated that the number of naval aviation decreased in comparison with 1996 more than one and a half times.

Someone might decide that this is the very bottom, from where only one way - up. Alas, this was not the case: in the framework of reforming the armed forces, it was decided to transfer naval missile-carrying, assault and fighter aircraft (except deck) to military air forces, and later military space forces. Thus, the fleet lost almost all of its missile carriers, fighters and attack aircraft, with the exception of the deck air regiment flying then on the Su-33, and the Black Sea assault air regiment armed with the Su-24. Strictly speaking, the latter could also be transferred to the Air Force, if it were not for the legal nuance - the air regiment was stationed in the Crimea, where, according to the agreement with Ukraine, only the navy could deploy its combat units, but the Air Force was forbidden. Thus, having transferred the air regiment of the VKS, we would have to relocate it from the Crimea somewhere else.


Su-24 flying close to the US destroyer "Porter"


How reasonable was this decision?

In favor of the withdrawal of rocket-carrying and tactical aircraft to the Air Force (the VKS was created in 2015 D) said the plight of the situation in which Russian naval aviation found itself in the first decade of the 21st century. The funds allocated for the maintenance of the fleet were absolutely scanty and in no way matched the needs of the sailors. In essence, it was not about saving, but about the survival of a certain number of forces from their total number, and it is very similar to the fact that the Navy preferred to send funds to preserve the holy of holies - missile submarine forces of strategic purpose, and besides - to preserve in a state of combat capability of a certain number of surface and submarine ships. And it is very similar to the fact that naval aviation simply did not fit into that beggarly budget, which the fleet had to settle for - judging by some evidence, the situation was even worse there than in the domestic Air Force (although it would seem to be worse) . In this case, the transfer of part of the naval aviation of the Air Force seemed to make sense, because there it was possible to completely support the drained air forces of the fleet, and in the fleet they did not expect anything but a quiet death.

We said earlier that in 2008 r, naval aviation probably consisted of 450 airplanes and helicopters, and this seems to be an impressive force. But, apparently, for the most part it existed only on paper: for example, the 689 th Guards Fighter Aviation Regiment, formerly part of the Baltic Fleet, quickly "shrunk" to the size of a squadron (the regiment itself ceased to exist, now they are thinking of reviving it Well, God forbid, in good time ...). According to some information, only two combat-ready squadrons of the Tu-22М3 were completed from the materiel of the regiment and two squadrons of naval missile-bearing aviation of the Air Force. Thus, the number of naval aviation formally remained significant, only the combat effectiveness was preserved, apparently, no more than 25-40% of aircraft, and maybe less. Thus, as we have said before, the transfer of missile-carrying and tactical aircraft from the fleet to the Air Force seemed to make sense.

However, the key word here is “like”. The fact is that such a decision could be justified only in the conditions of continuing budget deficit, but the last days came for it. Just in these years, a new era began for the domestic armed forces - the country finally found the means to more or less worthy of their content, at the same time they began to implement the ambitious state armaments program of the 2011-2020. Thus, the armed forces of the country should have been rescued, and along with them - and naval aviation, and it became simply not necessary to withdraw it from the fleet.

On the other hand, as we remember, there was a time of many changes, including organizational ones: for example, four military districts were formed, and all land forces, the Air Force and the Navy, territorially located in the district, are in command. In theory, this is a great solution, as it greatly simplifies leadership and enhances the coherence of actions of various branches of the armed forces. But what will it be in practice, because in the USSR and in the Russian Federation the training of officers was quite specialized and narrowly focused? After all, in theory, such a combined command will work well only if it is headed by people who perfectly understand the features and nuances of service and military pilots, and sailors, and ground forces, and where to get these, even if we in the Navy there was a division on the "surface" and "underwater" admirals, that is, the officers spent their entire service on submarines or surface ships, but not on those and others in turn? How well can a commander of a district, in the past, for example, an army officer, assign tasks to the same fleet? Provide his combat training?

The author has no answer to these questions.

But back to the unified command. Theoretically, with such an organization, it doesn’t matter where the specific aircraft and pilots are located - as part of the Air Force or the Navy, because any combat tasks, including sea ones, will be solved by all the forces at the disposal of the district. Well, practically ... As we have said above, it is difficult to say how effective such a command would be in our realities, but one thing is certain. History irrefutable evidence that whenever the fleet was deprived of naval aviation, and its tasks were assigned to the Air Force, the latter failed miserably to combat operations, demonstrating the complete inability to fight at least effectively against the sea.

The reason is that combat operations in the sea and ocean are extremely specific and require special combat training: at the same time, the air force has its own tasks and will always consider naval warfare as something that may be important, but still secondary, related to the basic functionality of the air force and will prepare accordingly for such a war. I would like to believe, of course, that in our case it would not be so, but ... perhaps the only lesson in history is that people do not remember its lessons.

Therefore, we can say that the naval aviation of the national fleet in 2011-2012. if not destroyed, it was reduced to the nominal value. What has changed today? There is no information about the number of naval aviation in the open press, but, using various sources, you can try to determine it "by eye".

As is known, missile launcher ceased to exist. However, according to existing plans, the 30 of the Tu-22М3 missile carriers must be upgraded to the Tu-22М3 and be able to use the X-32 anti-ship missile, which is a profound modernization of the X-22.


Tu-22M3M


The new rocket received an upgraded gos capable of operating in the conditions of strong electronic countermeasures of the enemy. How effective will be the new GOS, and how effectively planes that are not in the fleet will be able to use it is a big question, but still we, upon completion of this program, will get a full-fledged rocket-carrying air regiment (at least in terms of numbers). True, today, apart from the “pre-production” aircraft, on which the modernization was “run-in”, there is only one aircraft of this type, which was rolled out on 16 August 2018, and although it is said that all 30 aircraft must be upgraded 2020, such terms cause great doubt.

In addition to the two Tu-22M3M, we also have the 10 MiG-31K converted into carriers of Dagger missiles, but there are too many questions on this weapon system that do not allow us to unequivocally consider this missile an anti-vehicle.

Assault aviation. As we said earlier, in the Russian Navy, the 43 th separate naval ground attack aviation regiment based in the Crimea was preserved. The exact number of Su-24Ms on its armament is not, but given the fact that the first squadron formed in the Crimea, the Su-30CM was included in its composition, and the regiments are usually 3 squadron, it can be assumed that the number of Su-24M and Su- 24МР as part of naval aviation does not exceed 24 units. - that is, the maximum number of two squadrons.

fighter aircraft (multipurpose fighters).

Everything is more or less simple here - after the last reform, only the 279 th oxyap remained in the Navy, which is currently armed with the 17 Su-33 (approximate), besides another air regiment under the MiG-29KR / KUBR - 100 oops. It currently includes the 22 of the aircraft - the 19 MiG-29KR and the 3 MiG-29KUBR. As is known, further delivery of these types of aircraft to the fleet is not planned. However, at present, the Su-30CM is entering service with naval aviation - the author finds it difficult to name the exact number of vehicles in the army (probably within 20 machines), but the total supply of 28 aircraft of this type is expected under current contracts.

That, in general, is all.

Reconnaissance aircraft - everything is simple here. It is not there, with the possible exception of several Su-24MR scouts in the Black Sea 43-omshap.

Anti-submarine aircraft - Its basis today consists of Il-38 in, alas, an unknown quantity. Military Balance claims that as of 2016, there were 54 of them, which more or less coincides with the estimates of the 2014-2015 known to the author. (about 50 machines). The only thing that can be said more or less precisely is that the current program provides for upgrading 38 airplanes to the state of IL-28Н (with the installation of the Novella complex).



It must be said that the IL-38 is already a rather old aircraft (production completed in 1972), and, probably, the remaining machines will be withdrawn from naval aviation for recycling. It is 28 IL-38H that in the near future will form the basis of domestic anti-submarine aviation.

In addition to the IL-38, two squadrons of Tu-142 are also in service with naval aviation, which are usually also listed as anti-submarine aviation. At the same time, the total number of Tu-142 is estimated as “more than 20” by domestic sources and 27 machines, according to Military Balance. However, according to the latter, of this total number of 10 machines are the Tu-142MR, which is an airplane for the relay complex of the standby control system of naval nuclear forces. In order to accommodate the necessary communications equipment, the search and sighting system was removed from the aircraft, and the first cargo bay was occupied with communications equipment and a special towed antenna length 8 600. Obviously, the Tu-142MR cannot perform anti-submarine functions.
Accordingly, in all probability, no more than 17 anti-submarine Tu-142 are included in naval aviation. Considering the fact that the standard strength of the air squadron is 8 airplanes, and we have these squadrons of 2, there is an almost complete correspondence of the number we have determined to the standard organizational structure.

In addition, the anti-submarine aviation includes a number of amphibious aircraft Be-12 - most likely there are 9 machines left, of which 4 are search and rescue (Be-12PS)



Special aircraft. In addition to the already mentioned ten Tu-142MR, naval aviation also has two IL-20PT and IL-22М. They are often recorded in electronic reconnaissance aircraft, but apparently this is erroneous. Yes, the IL-20 is indeed such an aircraft, but the IL-20PT is, in essence, a telemetric flying laboratory for testing missile technology, and the IL-22M is the command point of the Doomsday, that is, the control plane in case of a nuclear war.

Quantity transport and passenger aircraft can not be accurately counted, but probably their total number is about 50 machines.

Helicopters

The radar patrol helicopters - 2 Ka-31;

Anti-submarine helicopters - 20 Mi-14, 43 Ka-27 and 20 Ka-27М, total 83 machines;

Attack and transport-combat helicopters - 8 Mi-24P and 27 Ka-29, total 35 machines;

Search and rescue helicopters - 40 Mi-14PS and 16 Ka-27PS, all - 56 machines.

In addition, it is possible that there is about 17 Mi-8 in the version of transport helicopters (according to other data, they were transferred to other power structures).

All in all, to date, Russian naval aviation has 221 aircraft (of which - 68 special and non-combat) and 193 helicopters (of which - 73 non-combat). What tasks will be able to solve these forces?

Air defense. The Northern Fleet is doing more or less well - it is there that all our 39 Su-33 and MiG-29KR / KUBR are stationed. In addition, this fleet probably received several Su-30CM.



However, attention is drawn to the fact that the typical "budget" air wing of a single American aircraft carrier includes the 48 F / A-18E / F Super Hornet and the possibility of strengthening it with another squadron is provided. Thus, naval tactical aviation of the entire Northern Fleet corresponds at best to one US aircraft carrier, but given the presence of DRLO and EW aircraft in the US air wing, providing much better situational awareness than our aircraft can provide, we should rather speak about American superiority. One aircraft carrier. Out of ten.

As for the other fleets, the Pacific and Baltic fleets today do not have their own fighter aircraft at all, so their anti-aircraft defense completely depends on the airborne forces (as we said earlier, historical experience suggests that the fleet’s hope for the Air Force never justified itself ). The situation with the Black Sea Fleet, which received a squadron of Su-30CM, is slightly better. But then a big question arises - how are they going to use it? Of course, the Su-30CM today, not only a strike aircraft, but also a fighter capable of “recounting spars” to almost any 4 generation fighter - numerous Indian exercises, during which airplanes of this type encountered various foreign “classmates”, led to quite optimistic for us results. However, paraphrasing Henry Ford: "The designers, the glorious guys, created multifunctional fighters, but the genetics, these rashly clever men, did not cope with the selection of multifunctional pilots." The point is that even if you can create a multi-purpose fighter that can equally well fight both air and surface and ground targets, then prepare people who can equally well fight enemy fighters and perform percussion functions, probably , all the same it is impossible.

The specifics of the work of a long-range, fighter or assault pilot are very different. At the same time, the pilot training process itself is very lengthy: in no case should one think that military educational institutions produce pilots who are prepared for modern combat operations. You can say that the flight school is the first stage of training, but then, in order to become a professional, the young soldier has to go a long and difficult path. As the commander of the naval aviation of the Navy, Hero of Russia, Major General Igor Sergeyevich Kozhin, said:

“Pilot training is a complex and lengthy process, which takes about eight years. This is, so to speak, the path from the cadet of the flight school to the pilot of the 1 class. Provided that he goes to study at the flight school for four years, and in the next four years the pilot will reach the 1 class. But only the most talented are capable of such rapid growth. ”


But the “1 Class Pilot” is a high, but not the highest level of preparation, there is also an “pilot-ace” and “pilot-sniper” ... Thus, it is not easy to become a true professional in the chosen type of aviation, this path will require long years of hard work. And yes, no one argues that, having achieved high professionalism, for example, on the MiG-31, the pilot is later able to retrain for Su-24, that is, change the “type of activity”. But this, again, will require great efforts and time, during which the skills of the fighter pilot will gradually be lost.

And yes, it is not necessary to blame the educational institutions at all - alas, in almost no business is a graduate of the university, but is not a professional with a capital letter. Doctors, despite the 6-year study, do not embark on independent practice, but go to an internship where they have been working under the supervision of experienced doctors for another year, while making independent decisions is prohibited for them. And if a young doctor wants to study in depth any direction, a residency awaits him ... Yes, there, the author of this article, being a graduate of an economics institute in the distant past, soon after starting work he heard a completely wonderful phrase in his address: part of the theory will fly out of your head, and practical knowledge will take its place, perhaps you will justify half your salary ”- and this was absolutely true.

Why do we all say this? And the fact that the Black Sea Su-30CM were included in the assault air regiment and, apparently, the fleet is going to use them exactly as strike aircraft. This is confirmed by the words of the representative of the Black Sea Fleet Vyacheslav Trukhachev: "Su-30SM aircraft have proven themselves well and today are the main striking force of naval aviation of the Black Sea Fleet."

Interestingly, the same can be seen in the aviation of other countries. So, as part of the US Air Force, there are F-15C airborne conquest planes and its F-15E twin-seat "version". At the same time, the latter is not at all deprived of fighter qualities, it remains a formidable air fighter, and it can perhaps be considered the closest American equivalent of our Su-30CM. However, F-15E in modern conflicts has almost never been entrusted with the task of conquering / maintaining air superiority - this is what F-15C is doing, while F-15E focuses on the implementation of the shock function.

Thus, we can assume that even in the Black Sea Fleet, despite the presence of the Su-30CM squadron (which would be hopelessly small anyway), naval aviation is unable to solve the air defense tasks of the ships and fleet objects.

Shock functions. The only fleet that can boast the ability to at least somehow solve them is the Black Sea, due to the presence of an assault air regiment in the Crimea. This connection is a serious deterrent and practically excludes “visits” of Turkish surface forces or small detachments of NATO surface ships to our shores during wartime. However, as far as the author knows, such visits were never planned, and the US Navy planned to operate with its aircraft and cruise missiles from the Mediterranean, where they are completely inaccessible to the Su-30SM and Su-24 of the Russian Black Sea Fleet.

Other fleets of tactical strike aircraft do not have in their composition (unless a few Su-30CM). As for our long-range VKS aviation, in the future it will be able to form one regiment (30 machines) of the upgraded Tu-22М3М with X-32 missiles, which can act as a means of reinforcing any of our four fleets (the Caspian flotilla clearly does not need this). But ... what is one missile regiment? During the Cold War, the US Navy had 15 aircraft carriers, and the Soviet MRA had 13 air regiments of missile-carrying aircraft which had 372 machines, or nearly 25 aircraft per aircraft carrier (this does not include a separate instrumental research missile regiment). Today, the Americans have only 10 aircraft carriers, and we will have (will there be) 30 upgraded Tu-22М3М - three cars per enemy ship. Of course, the Tu-22М3М with X-32 has significantly more capabilities than the Tu-22М3 with X-22, but then the quality of American air groups is not in place - their composition has been supplemented by "Super Hornets" with AFAR and improved avionics on the way F-35C ... The USSR never considered the Tu-22М3 a wunderwaffe capable of destroying all enemy aircraft carriers, and today our capabilities are reduced not even times, but by an order of magnitude.

True, there are ten more MiG-31K with "Dagger"



But the problem is that it is completely unclear whether this missile can hit moving ships at all. Many say that the Dagger is a modernized missile of the Iskander complex, but the aeroballistic missile of this complex does not know how to hit moving targets. This seems to be capable of a cruise missile P-500 (in fact, it is a land-based Caliber, or, if you like Caliber, it is a scowered P-500), and it is possible that the Dagger complex is also , like the Iskander, is a "two-missile" and that the defeat of naval targets is possible only with the use of a cruise, but not an airballistic missile. This is also hinted at by the exercise held, in which the Tu-22М3 with the X-32 and MiG-31K with the aeroballistic "Dagger" took part - with this, the defeat of the sea and ground targets was evident, and it is obvious that X-32, being an anti-ship missile, used by target ship. Accordingly, the “Dagger” was shot at a ground target, and who would have done this with an expensive anti-ship missile? If all this is true, then the capabilities of a dozen of MiG-31Ks are reduced from an “invincible hypersonic wunderwaffe that easily destroys US aircraft carriers” to a fairly weak ten-rocket salvo with conventional anti-ship missiles, which are unlikely to be able to overcome the air defense of modern AUG.

Intelligence and target designation. Here, the capabilities of naval aviation are minimal, since for everything we all have we have only two specialized Ka-31 helicopters, which by their capabilities are inferior to any DRLO aircraft. In addition, we have a number of IL-38 and Tu-142, which theoretically can perform reconnaissance functions (for example, the upgraded IL-38H avionics can, according to some sources, detect enemy surface ships at a distance of 320 km). However, the capabilities of IL-38H are still very limited in comparison with specialized aircraft (IL-20, A-50U, etc.), and most importantly, the use of these aircraft to solve reconnaissance tasks reduces the already unimaginative force of anti-submarine aircraft.

Anti-submarine aircraft. Against the background of the plight of other naval aviation, the state of the anti-submarine component looks relatively good - up to 50 Il-38 and 17 Tu-142 with a certain amount of Be-12 (possibly 5). However, it should be understood that this aircraft has largely lost its combat significance due to the obsolescence of the search and sighting equipment, including the replenishment of the US Navy 4-made submarine. All this is not a secret for the leadership of the Russian Navy, therefore, the modernization of 28 Il-38 and all 17 Tu-142 is being carried out. The updated IL-38Н and Tu-142МЗМ are likely to fully meet the objectives of the modern war, but ... This means that all anti-submarine aviation is reduced to one and a half regiments. Is it a lot or a little? In the USSR, the number of anti-submarine aviation Tu-142, Il-38 and Be-12 was 8 regiments: thus, we can say that our future regiment and a half, given the growth capabilities of the aircraft, are sufficient for one fleet. The problem is that we have not only one fleet, but four. Perhaps the same can be said about our anti-submarine helicopters. Generally speaking, 83 rotary-wing aircraft are a significant force, but we must not forget that ship-based helicopters are also included here.

Perhaps the only types of naval aviation that have more or less sufficient numbers to solve their tasks are transport and search and rescue aircraft.

What are the prospects of domestic naval aviation? We will talk about this in the next article, but for now, summarizing its current state, we’ll point out the 2 of the moment:

The positive aspect is that the worst times for the Russian naval aviation are over, and it survived, in spite of all the troubles of the 90s and the first decade of the 2000s. The backbone of pilots of deck and base aviation has been preserved, so today there are all the necessary prerequisites for the revival of this kind of troops;

The negative aspect is that, given the existing strength, our naval aviation has actually lost its ability to perform its inherent tasks, and in the event of a large-scale conflict, “is unlikely to be able to do more than show that knows how to die bravely” ( from the memorandum of Grand Admiral Raeder dated September 3 (1939, dedicated to the surface German fleet).

Продолжение следует ...
127 comments
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  1. +4
    12 September 2018 07: 35
    Naval aviation, in the form in which it was in the USSR, is not needed, by the way, as a small remark, Air Force of the Navy of the USSR never existed, there was no such designation, always was МOrsk aviation.
    Missile carriers, long-range reconnaissance aircraft, carrier-based aircraft - this is what is required, such as attack aircraft or basic tactical aircraft, for example, it is difficult to understand, although where they came from is well known.
    What is characteristic is that there has never been a Commander-in-Chief in Naval Aviation, there has always been a Chief of Naval Aviation, a seemingly trifle, but it says a lot.
    1. +3
      12 September 2018 08: 01
      Quote: bober1982
      By the way, as a small remark - the Air Force of the Navy of the USSR never existed, there was no such designation

      Nevertheless - as far as I know.
      1. +7
        12 September 2018 12: 51
        Donetsk.
        I would like to note about the mixed regiment in the Crimea - I was there recently and watched the flights. Including aerobatics on the Su-30, is it except that you see at an air show. I think that at the moment the Su-30 squadron in the regiment plays the role of fleet air defense fighters with the functions of escorting the Su-24 and patrol (PL) aircraft. But in the event of further rearmament of the regiment on the Su-30 (instead of 24), the other two squadrons will already be shock. Really, pilots cannot be trained by generalists, but a plane can be and it already is, the point is sharpening the combat training of pilots.
        To Tu-22 M3M, by 2020, 30 pcs. will hardly be, but by 2022 - completely. And even if modernization is limited to this amount, it is not at all necessary to keep them in one shelf, but it’s quite possible to set aside 10 pieces each. for each fleet (as part of mixed regiments with Su-30 and Su-24 \ 34), until the newly arriving vehicles allow the formation of new regiments on the basis of the same type squadrons in the future. After all, the MO and Navy plans to launch the production of a new version of the Tu-22 (M4, if memory serves) with a crew of 2 people. , greater range and engines NK-32M.
        The dagger has not yet been brought up to the anti-ship function, the key word is BYE, because the matter is in the seeker and combat algorithms. But even in its current form, it will take out all the enemy’s bases in the zone of its reach, and the zone can also be stretched by refueling in the air and temporary airfields.
        There is doubt about the availability of the Mi-14 combat-ready - they have already been removed for a long time and only very recently it was removed from the storage bases and sent to the cap. repair and modernization. I don’t think that since then we have managed a lot.
        Tu-214 is requested as a base for patrol and anti-submarine aviation, but if the industry can handle it, money will be found, and Taganrog can handle it ... Well, of course we are waiting for IL-114, but it only has a radius for the near field.
        1. 0
          14 September 2018 12: 36
          Encouraging)
          As for the Dagger, then for the removal of bases it is not needed, it makes no sense. The distant bases will be delivered by the Strategic Missile Forces;
          It was needed for long-range attack of ships in the Northern and Mediterranean zones directly from the airspace over the mainland (over Karelia and the Black Sea), when the carrier remains invulnerable and even invisible to the enemy. Otherwise, it makes no sense. Therefore, it is precisely the anti-ship option that is needed and it must be exactly hypersonic, otherwise zilch. But hypersonic anti-ship missiles are VERY complicated because not only does a complex GOS need, but also its work in plasma is a separate difficult task. No one has this and is not expected. Although the prerequisites for its success in the USSR were hurt (why did they believe that they were able to do it). That is precisely why everyone reacted to this dagger - because it was announced about the development of a unique piece. If it turns out that the missile does not possess these qualities (1. there is no that range, 2. there is no hypersound when attacking the target, 3. there is no anti-ship GOS) - this will be zilch, it will be simply useless.
          1. +3
            15 September 2018 04: 44
            There are no problems with the speed and range of the Dagger, the usual recalculation of the high-altitude launch to the impulse of the Iskander's engine will indicate this. But there were no reports of the defeat of naval moving targets, on the contrary, there were mentions that the GOS was being brought up.
            But the fact that it is useless "in databases" is a mistake. It is useful as a substitute for medium-range ballistic missiles (forbidden for us), and cruise missiles are not as fast and irresistible. And judging by the fact that almost all MiG-31s ​​want to be upgraded, the Daggers will have enough carriers.
            1. 0
              15 September 2018 17: 22
              The problem is that the marine seeker eats away a lot of range. Lots of. Why not more distant sea missiles.
              As for base attacks, it can and is useful in order to save strategic missile forces. But the meaning of the MiG-31 missile carrier group is the fight against the fleets. And what is 10 monoblock missiles against bases? Equivalent to one Governor. This is not serious.
              And I also heard about doubts about hypersound when approaching a target in dense layers due to the fragility of the head fairing. Well, in general - hypersound in dense layers - you yourself know ... And if during an attack the speed is not hyper-, then 10 missiles will not even break one AUG. And therefore - again, they are useless.
              In general, there are many questions. Let's hope that not only with us, but also with the enemy.
              1. +2
                16 September 2018 13: 03
                About the "fragility" of the fairing ... well, you will probably break it with a hammer. Air defense missiles also fly on hypersound and when the radar is on, despite the fact that the requirements for their accuracy are higher than for anti-ship missiles, and the target speed is orders of magnitude higher. So that's the problem to be solved. The main reliable target designation for anti-ship missiles.
                About ten MiG-31s ​​with Daggers ... the information, I think, is already outdated - the process continues. It is optimal to have one squadron in each of the fleets (I think it will be so), and in the Pacific one can envisage two such squadrons - in Vladivostok and Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky. And also a couple of special-purpose regiments with MiG-31 and "Daggers" for quick response.
                Regarding that "there are only 10 Daggers and that they can ... You confused the number of carriers with the number of" Daggers "themselves - one squadron of 10-12 aircraft will be able to inflict TWO, or even THREE strikes per day. This is a good substitute for medium-range missiles, more budgetary and more flexible and mobile in terms of basing. And there are more than enough goals for this complex without enemy ships:
                - NATO infrastructure in Europe;
                - American bases in the Middle East;
                - American bases in Japan and South Korea ...
                In the event that it will be based in the future on Russian bases abroad ... Syria, Sudan, Eritrea ... Cam Ranh (?) ... Cuba (?) ... Venice (?) ... Nicaragua (?) .. It's just an airplane with a cruise missile (aeroballistic) on board ... The Poles now have an F-16 with a cruise missile with a range of up to 1000 km. ... why not "Our Answer to Chamberlain"?

                I am now interested in the question - the Indians "Brahmos" make an aviation version, put on the Su-30, and why we do not have "Onyx" on the Tu-22M3M? You can hang from 4 to 6 products on one side, these are not two X-32s for you ... and its range is appropriate ...
                1. 0
                  21 September 2018 18: 48
                  The group will strike two or three blows, if even one is in time, good. Special warhead there by definition, against the base there is no point in putting another. Without special warheads, it’s only one crane there, and then if it gets there. In general, any war against bases is a nuclear war. And this means that this is an element of the strategic nuclear forces system, and for one shot. Ten aircraft with an air base against one silos. Therefore, in the version against the bases, this is not so interesting and controversial.
                  In the anti-ship - yes. But this if he is, what is the question.
                  As for Onyx on the Tu-22, then yes, a good question. 6 Onyxes from each machine - guaranteed take-out of an aircraft carrier. For 3 X-32 - is unknown.
                  1. +1
                    23 September 2018 00: 03
                    What is the "disposability" of the Dagger? That in the event of a nuclear conflict, the strike will be on the home airfields? Firstly, they will definitely deliver the first blow. Secondly, in the event of a defeat of their own airfield, there are spare ones, as well as civilians. Thirdly, even in the United States it may stupidly not be enough to strike at all airfields based on nuclear weapons - there are no more than two hundred of them left (tactical) and the means of their delivery are very unreliable. Fourthly, even if no more than one blow is applied per day, then nothing prevents them from being applied on the second, third day. The main thing is to keep the aircraft carriers and the Daggers for them.
                    And fifthly - no one claimed that the anti-ship version is not ready, but the official one simply claims to be ready and put into service. The fact that the revision is ongoing and not everything is going smoothly is an online version of an unknown author, which they began to repeat.
                    Sixth, according to international obligations, we cannot have medium-range missiles, and the Dagger complex allows us to bypass these restrictions. ICBMs cannot replace them, since they are also subject to quantitative restrictions and are barely enough to defeat targets in the United States.

                    Conclusion - "Dagger" is budgetary, flexible, versatile ... And very timely.
                    1. 0
                      24 September 2018 00: 32
                      Ok, we will follow the news on fine-tuning these systems.
                    2. 0
                      25 September 2018 15: 14
                      By the way, for attacks by enemy bases that will be powerfully covered by both Patriot and Aegis / SM3 systems, these Vanguards are most likely to be needed, which will ensure guaranteed defeat of such important targets as bases. How suitable the dagger is for this is an open question.
                      1. 0
                        26 September 2018 23: 50
                        Donetsk.
                        The dagger fits perfectly, but the Vanguard is the equipment of the head parts of ICBMs, this is from another opera. But neither of these are missile defense systems.
      2. +6
        12 September 2018 15: 33
        Here's another, well, I don’t even know the clarification is possible. You didn’t take into account that almost all of the Tu 95 fulfill the tasks of naval aviation, and the Tu 95RC is a reconnaissance target designator, alas, I do not know the number for today. hi
        1. 0
          16 September 2018 22: 18
          AUGs, SSBNs are also being searched, do not carry your tasks with YES, they will not block the tasks of MA
  2. -2
    12 September 2018 07: 44
    I believe that to increase the effectiveness of Russian naval aviation, three completely new types of naval aircraft must be designed: 1. an ultra-compact carrier-based fighter in order to build submarine aircraft carriers. 2. The distant hypersonic bomber is a missile carrier. 3. Multipurpose seaplane-catamaran. I will describe all three types in more detail. in the following posts.
    1. -4
      12 September 2018 07: 56
      Ultra-compact carrier-based fighter - what is meant by this? very strong reduction in the overall dimensions of the carrier-based aircraft. To do this, you need to apply the method of radical folding of the wing - from the very root. Then the overall width of the MiG-29 fighter will be only 3 meters. And also it is necessary to make folding not only the wings, but also the keels and the stabilizer. In addition, the aircraft should be stored in the under-deck hangar of the aircraft carrier with the landing gear retracted - on special bogies, then their overall height will be only 1 meter. And if you build a submarine aircraft carrier - a catamaran - of the nuclear submarine "Akula", then such a ship with a hull diameter of 20 meters can carry up to 200 MiG-29 fighters.
      1. +9
        12 September 2018 08: 02
        So you can agree even to the fact that the aircraft must be packed in suitcases, no offense will be said. The mood you, of course, raised in the morning.
        1. -1
          12 September 2018 08: 20
          So after all, you can agree to the point that planes must be packed in suitcases,

          Don't you like it? Do you think wing folding is impossible? Or landing gear when storing the aircraft in the hangar? Or do you consider it useless to reduce the overall dimensions of the aircraft when stored in a hangar?
          1. 0
            12 September 2018 08: 37
            I didn’t want to offend you, I regretted my comment, it’s very abstruse you get it.
            1. -1
              12 September 2018 08: 50
              very abstruse you get it.

              In fact, there is nothing abstruse in my words. And the fact is that usually designers do not strive to create excellent, outstanding designs - few people know what the basic principle of design is: it is enough for the design to work at least for a "C". That is, you can shrink the plane to the size of the fuselage and there is no difficulty in this - but the designers do not do this out of their own mental laziness. I have a book in front of me, "Deck Aircraft of the Second World War." And most of those aircraft had folding wings. But some of them only had the wingtips folded - the consoles, while others - the entire wing. Moreover, the wing did not fold from the root itself, but from the dimensions of the propeller, which was about 3,5 meters in diameter for all aircraft. That is, the designers could easily fold the wing from the fuselage itself, and thereby greatly reduce the size of the aircraft, but they simply did not attach any importance to this. And even more so, the reduction in size was greatly hampered by the propeller. But after all, modern jet fighters do not have a propeller, which means that the wing can be folded from the very root - why don't they do this, and only the tips fold away like in the planes of the WWII era? And this is just mental laziness! This is called the inertia of thinking - if they did it before, then the stupid designers continue to do it also in the new changed conditions.
              1. +3
                12 September 2018 09: 46
                Do not forget that the wing is a load-bearing structure that is under severe load. It is possible to make a folding one, but the car will turn out to be much heavier, which will badly affect LTX. This time.
                For many aircraft, the landing gear has retractable landing gear, and then there are a lot of problems with folding wings. These are two.
                How are you going to take this armada into the air for a while? The mission is impossible ... but you still have to plant them somehow. These are three.
                1. -1
                  12 September 2018 10: 27
                  Do not forget that the wing is a load-bearing structure that is under severe load. It is possible to make a folding one, but the car will turn out to be much heavier, which will badly affect LTX. This time.
                  For many aircraft, the landing gear has retractable landing gear, and then there are a lot of problems with folding wings. These are two.

                  I will answer you not out of contradiction, but simply so as to dispel some of the misunderstandings that prevail in society.
                  Firstly, for many aircraft - in particular, for the Mig-29 - which is the main emphasis as an aircraft for an underwater aircraft carrier, landing gears are not in the wing, but are attached to the fuselage. So folding the wing of the chassis does not hurt.
                  Secondly, so many planes had a wing, I’ll now list a little only those that didn’t have a console, but the whole wing: the famous Swordfish, Blackburn Skew, Barracuda, Fulmar, Sifire - a maneuverable fighter designed to turn with great overloads, Firefly , Devastator (torpedo bomber), famous Avantger, Windicaytor, Helldiver, Wildket (maneuverable fighter), Hellket - maneuverable fighter, Corsair - maneuverable fighter. And many others.
                  So - do I need to fold a decked aircraft wing? Let me remind you that the wing span of the MiG-29 fighter is almost 12 m, and even in the layered form - about 8 m, and if you fold the wing from the root - that is, the overall width will be only 3 meters, this means that it will be possible to place about 3 times more planes than the usual layout! Number of up to 200 aircraft on an aircraft carrier!
                  You ask - how to raise such a mass of aircraft into the air at the same time? So after all, a catamaran submarine is at least two runways, but in fact much more - because it is possible to ensure takeoff not only in the bow, but also in the stern. And with a deck width of 40 m, and a wingspan of 12 m, you can provide three runways in the bow, and 3 in the stern.
                  And besides, it is not necessary to ensure the simultaneous take-off of all aircraft. For example, half of them - 100 units can be stored in the hangar. because the submarine carrier can conduct military operations in the Atlantic, Pacific and Indian oceans, and at the same time suffer losses in aircraft, so that it will not be able to receive new aircraft from Russia in a timely manner. Then just take the spare planes.
                  1. 0
                    12 September 2018 11: 05
                    The very idea of ​​an underwater aircraft carrier with an instant blows with some sort of anachronism.
                    Here is much more promising food for imagination:
                  2. 0
                    12 September 2018 13: 07
                    Quote: geniy
                    I’ll now list a little only those that didn’t have consoles, but the whole wing: the famous Swordfish, Blackburn Squire, Barracuda, Fulmar, Sifire - a maneuverable fighter designed to turn with large overloads, Firefly, Devastator (torpedo bearer), the famous Avenger, Windyday Helldiver, Wildket (maneuverable fighter), Hellket - maneuverable fighter, Corsair - maneuverable fighter

                    Sense to compare with the aircraft of the last century? In half of the airplanes you brought, the wing folded on the console (that is, not from the root of the wing) - (Devastator, Corsair, Whitecat, Hellkat, Helldiver, Avenger, Vindikator, Sifayr) Do you think that boobies are sitting on the VO and know nothing?
                    1. 0
                      12 September 2018 15: 03
                      In half of the airplanes you brought, the wing folded on the console (that is, not from the root of the wing) - (Devastator, Corsair, Whitecat, Hellkat, Helldiver, Avenger, Vindikator, Sifayr) Do you think that boobies are sitting on the VO and know nothing?

                      So there are boobies. I will not point a finger.
                      If you personally don’t understand why it was the wings of the planes of the Second World War that folded the consoles, and not the fuselage, then I explain that those planes were almost all with the chassis mounted on the wings, and they all also had a three-meter diameter propeller, therefore it made sense to especially try and reduce the overall size to less than three meters. But modern jet planes, firstly, do not have a propeller at all, and secondly, the landing gear is attached to the fuselage. therefore, it is very advantageous for modern aircraft such as the MiG-29 type to fold the wing from the root itself.
                  3. +3
                    12 September 2018 14: 02
                    You would have sent the theoretical designer to the deck crew for the aircraft carrier, in a flash all the nonsense would have flown out of the head. Why are you crucifying about something you don’t understand a damn thing about. You should at least watch a video on YouTube, as happened on the deck of aircraft carriers during the war. Yes, I would have asked how the late McCain nearly burned the aircraft carrier, but he killed a bunch of planes, probably they gave a medal for it.
                    1. 0
                      12 September 2018 14: 55
                      Ros 56 (Yuri) You would have sent a theoretical designer to the deck crew for an aircraft carrier,

                      You to send the oars to the galley to wave the oars, but would ask what it is, then you would understand what it feels like to fight on ships.
                      1. 0
                        12 September 2018 14: 59
                        What are you talking about, the genius of design thought. There is something to object to the case, say, and don’t take people’s time. And better suggest Shoigu, he will appreciate.
                    2. 0
                      13 September 2018 13: 16
                      Quote: Ros 56
                      Yes, I would have asked how the late McCain nearly burned the aircraft carrier, but ditched a bunch of planes, probably they gave a medal for it.

                      It was not McCain that almost burned, but McCain himself was nearly burned. He is in that incident - the affected party. smile
                      The NAR, with which the fire started, released the Phantom, which was standing in the row opposite McCain's Skyhawk - and this NAR hit the car next to McCain's plane.
                  4. +3
                    12 September 2018 18: 28
                    What other underwater aircraft carrier are you out of your mind? We would have to frigate the frigates, pieces of 5 per fleet.
        2. +1
          12 September 2018 12: 48
          I immediately remembered the James Bond plane that he carried with him in a trailer for transporting horses laughing
      2. +1
        12 September 2018 09: 12
        Underwater aircraft carrier, this is utopia. Can you imagine its size and technical difficulties? I generally will not say anything about the cost. And 941 can not be altered into it.
        1. +1
          12 September 2018 10: 36
          Underwater aircraft carrier, this is utopia. Imagine its size

          I can imagine very well: the above-water atomic length is 333 m, and from the underwater approximately 180 m, the width from the above-water atomic 78 m, and from the underwater 40 m,
          the surface displacement is about 100 tons, and the underwater displacement is about 000 tons
          And what is impossible here?
          Can you imagine ... technical difficulties?

          And what are the technical difficulties? from the project 941 boat you need to take only the aft end - with nuclear reactors, turbines, rudders and propellers. And the entire middle part, along with missile mines, is simply cut into scrap metal.
          What are the technical difficulties? to put the most ordinary elevators for lifting aircraft? Is it really difficult for a country like Russia to make an ordinary hoist for a mass of 20 tons? Yes, they raise much more - up to 1000 tons and more.
          Maybe you think that a catapult is a problem? so of course, if it’s steam or electromagnetic, really, but the length of the flight deck at 9411 = 180 m, and Migi can take off without a catapult at all, and in addition, it is possible to take off using gas turbines with a cable winding onto a drum - as thousands of gliders do . And what else is complicated? make two cylindrical bodies? Yes, this requires resources, but no more reasonable limits.
          1. +2
            12 September 2018 10: 56
            Wonderful (by the way, the entire length is 172,8 m). Do you propose to remove the cabin? Will such an aircraft carrier act alone? Escort ships, as I understand it, are not provided. Does the satellite in the geostationary orbit report the radar situation? If the storm, or strong excitement, do not fight? The standard of readiness for take-off of an air wing after ascent takes how long does it take? And for receiving aircraft and preparing for a dive? By the way, there are already two strong cases.


            1. +1
              12 September 2018 12: 08
              Wonderful (by the way, the entire length is 172,8 m). Do you propose to remove the cabin?
              You see - it is completely indifferent what the true length of the boats of the 941 project is. Because in order to rebuild it into a submarine aircraft carrier, it will still be necessary to build the entire middle and bow sections anew. And the insert in the middle can be made in any desired length - so that you know: the middle part of ships and vessels is called a "cylindrical insert" - moreover, cylindrical - even if the frames are of the usual rectangular shape. For example, the tanker "Batillus" was built of the same length, and then it was cut in half and another compartment was inserted. However, this is also often done with passenger planes. So how long will the final length of the submarine aircraft carrier be - yes, at the request of the designers. for example, each compartment for aircraft will have a length of about 15-20 m. So count: at least 5 compartments for accommodating aircraft in one body. That is, the length of the cylindrical insert is about 100 meters. Plus, the length of the bow is about 30 m.
              And the wheelhouse is not needed at all - you just need to cut it off. The fact is that radars and periscopes are not needed for an underwater carrier - because he will never go into torpedo attacks. And if any submarine now includes a radar, then it instantly detects itself to the enemy, because waves from radars are detected thousands of miles away. And the underwater aircraft carrier can easily get the situation from the sonar station. The fact is that the detection range of surface ships with submarines with a noise finder is about 100 miles. But there is a nuance - if the submarine plunged below the sound-scattering layer (400-600 m), then it falls into the underwater sound channels through which sound is transmitted for thousands of kilometers. That is, an underwater aircraft carrier that has plunged to such a depth will be able to detect enemy ships over thousands of kilometers, while the range of detection of sea targets by ship’s radar is only 40 km.
              1. +1
                12 September 2018 12: 16
                Is this all for the fight against the enemy surface fleet ?! For such purposes, there are already boats with the appropriate weapons. Why fantasize about an underwater "death star"?
                1. 0
                  12 September 2018 12: 28
                  Is this all for fighting an enemy surface fleet ?! For such purposes, there are already boats with the appropriate weapons.

                  No, not only for the struggle against surface ships, against which, as you rightly wrote, there will be enough ordinary boats. The fact is that aircraft carrier aircraft have a significant flight range of about 1000 km, and they can have much more (due to either hanging tanks, or refueling in flight, or placing additional fuel in the wings, or due to flying on one engine and shutting down the second (as the Polish Tu-104 did, for example), in general, the flight range can be increased to about 2000-3000 — that is, to cover almost half of the US territory from the Atlantic Ocean and the second half from the Pacific Ocean. That is, aircraft from an underwater aircraft carrier can bomb any targets throughout America - including South, not to mention Africa, Australia, Europe, and Asia, and just like that, an underwater aircraft carrier can fly up from the Hawaiian Islands, for example, and bomb some base like Pearl Harbor.
                  But the fact is that I am not assuming a clean aircraft carrier, but a combined one - that is, when unloading a certain part of the aircraft, tanks, armored personnel carriers, artillery, multiple launch rocket systems, thousands of soldiers and marines can be loaded into this aircraft carrier - and land amphibious assaults - at least to the same Hawaiian islands.
                  Moreover, the option of turning the submarine carrier into a regular transport vessel is also possible - if you remove the planes from it, you can load thousands of tons of other goods - from tractors, cars, food, gasoline and diesel fuel - and bring all this to some surrounded islands - for example to Cuba, or Vietnam, or Argentina, or the Philippines, or to an African country.
                  1. +3
                    12 September 2018 12: 35
                    Thousands of tons of cargo on an underwater aircraft carrier (tractors, cars, food, fuel)? And what class are you studying in, if not a secret?
                    1. 0
                      12 September 2018 12: 47
                      And what specifically confuses you about the carrying capacity of an underwater aircraft carrier? Do you doubt something? Maybe you know the design of submarines better than me? (So ​​for information - I graduated from the shipbuilding institute). And I know certain secrets of underwater shipbuilding that you have no idea about. So what - continue to doubt further?
                      1. +3
                        12 September 2018 13: 00
                        No, I definitely have no doubt. The ingenious project.
                      2. +1
                        12 September 2018 13: 12
                        Quote: geniy
                        And I know certain secrets of underwater shipbuilding that you have no idea

                        laughing They made a laugh. Secrets damn it ... You can graduate from an institute, but you don’t understand history, to say the least. Give me examples of where and when to transport tractors and cars in submarines? (I agree with fuel and food, the Japanese transported to World War 2).
                    2. 0
                      12 September 2018 18: 35
                      Quote: Sergey985
                      And what class are you studying in, if not a secret?

                      For some reason, I recalled a brilliant Ukrainian boy with a cardboard tank.
              2. +2
                12 September 2018 13: 43
                Quote: geniy
                And the wheelhouse is not needed at all - you just need to cut it off.
                grinder.

                Quote: geniy
                if any submarine now includes a radar, then it instantly detects itself to the enemy, because waves from radars are detected thousands of miles away
                Well, logically, the radar rotates in water and boils heavily. The waves from him diverge for thousands of miles. Dangerous crap, this radio equipment, yeah.
                1. 0
                  12 September 2018 14: 38
                  Quote: geniy
                  And the wheelhouse is not needed at all - you just need to cut it off. grinder.

                  Well, if you do not know what tools are used to cut off the structures of ships, then I will tell you personally that most often they use gas cutters - that is, acetylene with kerosene can easily cut off any steel. And this was first used in the repair of ships back in 1904 in Port Arthur during the Russian-Japanese war. And then remember the book "Overhaul" - when, in 1914, gas-cutting cut off the lattice masts from the battleships of the type "Andrew the First-Called", And then remember the book of the academician shipbuilder Krylov: how in Germany a team of German carvers cut into scrap metal sold there for cutting unfinished Russian linear cruisers: Huge ships with a displacement of about 30 thousand tons, a brigade of several people began to cut from the stern diagonally right afloat - without any lifting to the dock, so that only a small bow remained, which was easily lifted by a crane. Or remember how the Empress Maria battleship raised upside down was cut into pieces. If you do not know all this, then what to talk about then? That the submarine was cut off by a grinder!
                  1. +1
                    12 September 2018 15: 10
                    Quote: geniy
                    If you don’t know all this - then what to talk about? That the cabin of the submarine is supposedly cut off by a grinder!

                    You just have a conservative type of thinking. I propose cutting the cabin with a giant grinder mounted on an atomic flying aircraft carrier. It promises extraordinary prospects, just think. Today he cuts logging in Severomorsk, and tomorrow, flying to Vladik cuts logging there. And then there are no dice three-eighths of an inch, and they are going to let the tram!
                  2. -2
                    14 September 2018 08: 39
                    Shipbuilder! .Metal cuts a stream of oxygen, but certainly not acetylene or kerosene vapor. What needs to be done after cutting the metal ???? correctly, process the edges, cut the welded joints. If you decide to cut your underwater aircraft carrier into scrap metal, then processing can be omitted. well, and much will depend on the steel grades used in the construction. the higher the corrosion resistance of the steel, the worse it will lend itself to oxygen cutting. Here it is already desirable to use a plasma cutter.
                2. 0
                  12 September 2018 14: 48
                  Well, logically, the radar rotates in water and boils heavily. The waves from him diverge for thousands of miles. Dangerous crap, this radio equipment, yeah.

                  If you do not know, then American submarines during the Second World War discovered Japanese ships with the help of radar. Which is of course a surface detection tool, but of course there was no such equipment on merchant Japanese ships then, as indeed on Japanese submarines. And the Japanese submariners were very sorry that they did not have their own radars - otherwise they would have drowned a lot of American ships in their dreams.
                  But now the radar is quite an ordinary thing on thousands of ships and ships. And as soon as the radar begins to work nearby, then its work is immediately detected. The fact is that the work of any locator - even a radar, even a sonar is detected by direction finding stations at a distance of 3 times more than the locator itself detects a target. Therefore, for any submarine it is simply suicidal to turn on its own radar - it will be immediately discovered. And locators put on the principle - you never know what? Suddenly the submarine will create such strange conditions that no one will pursue it? That is, radars in submarines are not needed at all - this is an extremely dangerous thing for themselves - they are put just out of habit - or to enter their base so as not to collide with any kind of vessel. And if there are such ignoramuses in the world who do not know that this radio engineering crap is dangerous primarily for the submarines themselves, then it is a pity that the philistine public is so illiterate in military matters.
                3. +1
                  12 September 2018 20: 00
                  About the radar boiling in water is strong! Laughing to tears! Fat plus. good
            2. -1
              12 September 2018 12: 15
              Escort ships, as I understand it, are not provided.

              You understand that correctly. Because if an American nuclear aircraft carrier is sailing in the ocean, then this is simply a huge target for Russian submarines, surface ships and missile-carrying aircraft. Because now all surface ships are easily detected from satellites and all their movement is known with an accuracy of one meter. And by other means too - for example, long-range land radars of the "Don" type and others. Therefore, a surface aircraft carrier can easily torpedo any submarine, or launch cruise missiles at it from a distance of hundreds of kilometers. But the submarine aircraft carrier goes under water, and can go all the way thousands of miles without surfacing, so that no one will know where it will surface and, releasing air, attacks either a city, an island, or an enemy squadron.
              1. +2
                12 September 2018 12: 28
                Do you seriously believe what you wrote? I dare to disappoint you, the American aircraft carrier is not an easy target. And reconnaissance satellites are in low orbit. And making the next round, they are not in the same place. Can you imagine the number of satellites to cover in real time any piece of the Earth? And Don stations cannot follow the aircraft carriers.
                1. -1
                  12 September 2018 12: 41
                  And reconnaissance satellites are in low orbit. And making the next round, they are not in the same place.

                  Do you seriously believe that Russia has only one single satellite? And is it more impossible for poor Russia to detect American aircraft carriers? Yes, what would you know - the range of detection of ships by AWACS aircraft is about 400 km.
                  1. +3
                    12 September 2018 13: 23
                    Quote: geniy
                    Do you seriously believe that Russia has only one single satellite?

                    No, not at all. There are 4 of them, as far as this is known. Cosmos-2486, Cosmos-2503, Cosmos-2506, Cosmos-2515.
                    Quote: Sergey985
                    Can you imagine the number of satellites to cover in real time any piece of the Earth?

                    The Planet Labs group captures almost any point of the earth once a day (not in real time, of course). About 190 devices.
                    Accordingly, for shooting every hour you need to equip cameras with a Starlink scale grouping (12 thousand devices).
                    Only my heart feels, the bourgeois with Mask will quickly agree.
                    Quote: geniy
                    And is it more impossible for poor Russia to detect American aircraft carriers?

                    No.
                    Quote: geniy
                    AWACS

                    The 144th Aviation Regiment DRLO (then the 2457th AvB combat use of aircraft DRLN and 610th Pulp and Paper Mill and PLC), Severny airfield, Ivanovo. 7 A-50s fly and 9 for storage, as well as 4 A-50Us
                    1. -1
                      12 September 2018 15: 26
                      Cherry Nine (1) Today, 13:23

                      But did you know that any surface ship can be detected in different ways across several physical fields? Firstly, visually, secondly by radar, thirdly, direction-finding the direction of the ship emitting radio signals from several points (the Bismarck battleship was discovered in this way), fourthly, noise-detecting, fifthly, sonar, sixth: infrared night vision devices, with using a magnetic field. So - the surface aircraft carrier group will either have to remain silent all the time and not use radio communications (as the Japanese did during the campaign to Pearl Harbor) - but this is very difficult, and if you use radio communications and radars, then the aircraft carrier together with the entire group will instantly be detected. Remember how they sent a radiogram from the battleship Bismarck - and they immediately found it.
                      So not only satellites can detect American aircraft carriers. Although the satellites, too - and let them be only 4, but they can also launch a hundred more if needed. and then, the matter is not only in the confrontation of ships against each other - that is, a Russian underwater carrier against an American surface, because there can be a great many goals and tasks for an underwater carrier - for example, to bomb New York and Washington that are not moving and find these targets by no means companions are not necessary at all. Or when landing on some island - also satellites are not painfully needed. Yes, in principle, small aircraft can also be launched from an underwater aircraft carrier - reconnaissance drones.
                      1. +5
                        12 September 2018 16: 06
                        Quote: geniy
                        but it’s very difficult, and if you use radio communications and radars, then the aircraft carrier along with the entire group will be instantly detected.

                        Ogums
                        So, September 11, 1982, Saturday. Our Pacific Fleet has just completed the final annual exercise. All ships returned to base. Tasks have been worked out to combat the enemy carrier strike formation near our coast, to ensure that our SSBNs leave the base for military service, landings, coastal defense, etc.
                        The actual situation in the zone of the fleet. The latest intelligence of the Pacific Fleet. The carrier-based strike group led by the nuclear aircraft carrier Enterprise, having made the transition from San Diego to Pearl Harbor and after refueling the escort ships, began to evolve in a northwesterly direction towards Kamchatka (which is unusual at all, but it did not pay much attention ). Data on AUG is confirmed by space, coastal radio reconnaissance and our reconnaissance ship conducting intelligence in the Hawaii area.
                        The second main object of intelligence - the aircraft carrier "Midway" as part of an aircraft carrier group on Thursday 9 September left the base in Yokosuka (Japan), was discovered by our reconnaissance ship "Kursograf", but withdrew from tracking and went to the south westward towards the Strait of Malacca.
                        The second day of the aircraft carrier "Midway" in radio is not marked. Space reconnaissance does not observe him either.
                        Call home from the operational duty of the Pacific Fleet intelligence: “You urgently, along with the head of the 1st group of the information center of the Pacific Fleet Intelligence Unit, Chudin, is called by the head of the Pacific Fleet Intelligence Rear Admiral Maksimenko Yuri Spiridonovich. Arrive immediately at the headquarters of the Pacific Fleet. ”
                        Arrived at the intelligence chief’s office. “Where is the Midway?” The second day we do not know where he is? Analyze all the information immediately and report back to me in an hour. ”
                        We settled in the office of the 1st group of the analysis of the current situation of the information center of the Pacific Fleet intelligence. At that time, I was acting as deputy head of the Pacific Fleet intelligence information center, and Chudin, head of the 1st group. We reviewed all reports from units and ships, data from space intelligence. They could not have expected anything else: the Midway aircraft carrier departed either to the Indian Ocean or to the Philippine Sea for exercises. On that calmed down.
                        Then, in hindsight, during the “debriefing” we learned that our coast reconnaissance, which controlled the radio networks of the operational command of the US armed forces, did not pay attention to the fact that the combat control training signals were no longer transmitted on the radio networks. That is, the radio networks were put on high alert for the transfer of actual combat orders.
                        Then I realized one more truth from this episode: “You can’t rely on stereotypes. We must assume the worst options. For example, the secret deployment of AUG to the coastal coast or to Kamchatka. If we are ready to meet this threat, then we will be fully armed. ” After the events of September 1982, I was convinced of one thing, as in probability theory: "Better false alarm than missing a target." But that was later. Then the chain of those punctures began, which made it possible to name them as “Soviet Pearl Harbor”.
                        On the same day, a pair of reconnaissance aircraft TU-95 of the RC of 304-ODRAP flew from the airfield Khorol to the central part of the Pacific Ocean to clarify the location of the AUG "Enterprise". As it turned out, when flying east of the Kuril Islands, the operator of the radar in the porthole found a group of lights, but did not attach any importance to this, since he was faced with the task of detecting the AUG Enterprise. With this task, the pilots successfully coped. In fact, they flew just above the AUG "Midway" ships, which covertly deployed under Kamchatka towards the AUG "Enterprise" to form an aircraft carrier strike force (AUS).
                        In the evening, on Saturday, there were reports of fires in the barracks of our radio-direction-finding stations on Fr. Iturup and in b. Providence with an interval of 10 hours. This significantly hampered the work of our direction finding network. I do not exclude that this was the actual working off of the American special units “SEAL” (“sea lions”) on our territory.
                        12 September, Sunday. In the morning, at the order of the Navy's General Staff, a pair of TU-16R reconnaissance aircraft of the 169 mixed air regiment of the Pacific Fleet takes off from the Yelizovo airport (Kamchatka) to reconnaissance AUG Enterprise. According to their report, they were intercepted by carrier-based carrier-based fighter aircraft. And another puncture. In the report, they do not indicate the types of fighters that accompanied them. As it turned out from the pictures, they were intercepted by F-4 Phantom fighters, which remained only on the Midway aircraft carrier. The remaining aircraft carriers were re-equipped with new Tomcat F-14 fighters.
                        Thus, we remained in the dark about where the Midway AUG is located. And only on the afternoon of Sunday, a report was received from our coastal radio squadron in Kamchatka that our posts commemorate the work of the ships at frequencies of the AUG Midway intra-firing link.
                        It was a shock. The radio finding results showed that the newly formed carrier-assault strike compound (Enterprise and Midway), consisting of more than 30 ships, maneuvers 300 miles southeast of Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky and conducts flights of deck aircraft at a distance of 150 km from our coast.
                        Urgent report to the headquarters of the Navy. Commander-in-Chief of the Navy Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Gorshkov SG make a decision immediately. Urgently send the Sentry Guard patrol ship, three 671 RTM multi-purpose nuclear submarines to track the AUS, organize continuous aerial reconnaissance, bring the entire naval carrier of the Pacific Fleet fully operational, establish close cooperation with the air defense system in the Far East, and bring it into full combat readiness all parts and ships of the intelligence of the Pacific Fleet.
                        In response to such aggressive actions by the Americans to prepare for the departure a naval division of the naval-carrying aviation in readiness, on Monday to designate an airborne missile attack on an aircraft carrier. At the same time, multi-purpose nuclear-powered submarines with cruise missiles were also preparing to strike.
                        13 September, Monday. The Pacific Fleet reconnaissance will have to locate the AUS and direct the air division of naval missile-carrying aircraft. But at this time on the ships of the aircraft carrier of the United States introduced radio silence. All radar stations are off. We carefully study the data of optoelectronic space intelligence. There are no reliable data on the whereabouts of aircraft carriers. Nevertheless, the departure of MRA aviation from Kamchatka took place. To an empty place.
                        Only a day later, on Tuesday, 14 of September, we learn from the data of the air defense posts in the Kuril Islands that the carrier-based strike force is maneuvering east of the island of Paramushir (the Kuril Islands), conducting flights of carrier-based aircraft.
                        Then they managed to send the sentry ship “Storozheva” to the aircraft carriers (TCR “Watchdog” at one time gained notoriety at the Main Command of the Navy after the well-known events in the Baltic Sea connected with the hijacking of the ship in 1975 under the command of the Kremlin’s politician. the crew was disbanded, and the ship was transferred from the Baltic to Kamchatka). Now this ship has become a direct tracking ship for the AUS. Multipurpose submarines sent to monitor the American AUS did not quite cope with their tasks, as this is the most difficult task for the submarine commander. It is necessary to try to be undetected in the composition of the order of connection.
                        Ultimately, the U.S. aircraft carrier strike force passed east of the Kuril Islands, revealing the possibility of Soviet air defense to protect its borders. The apotheosis of this transition was the violation of the USSR airspace in the area of ​​the Lesser Kuril Ridge (Tanfilyev, Anchuchin, Yuri, Polonsky, Zeleny, Shikotan) by carrier-based aircraft. It turned out that our “all-weather” fighter aviation, represented by the obsolete MIG-19 and MIG-21 fighters, is not able to withstand the American deck-based Phantoms and the Intruders attack aircraft. The weather did not allow them to be used. After this next spit in our direction, the aircraft carrier formation (Enterprise, Midway) entered the Sea of ​​Japan through the Sangarsky Strait. Here, of course, a whole bunch of opposing forces awaited them: a separate air division of naval missile-carrying aviation, a division of multipurpose nuclear submarines, aircraft carriers Minsk and Novorossiysk, a heavy nuclear missile cruiser Frunze. Having fulfilled carrier-based carrier-strike attacks along the coast of Primorye, the carrier-based force successfully exited through the Korean Strait to the Yellow Sea. This ended the naval exercises of the US Pacific Fleet-82 fleet. The operational control system of the US Armed Forces has worked in the previous mode. And at this time we began to analyze our mistakes as part of a special commission. But their results are not presented so far.
                      2. +1
                        12 September 2018 16: 10
                        Quote: geniy
                        but they can launch a hundred more if needed

                        Can not.
                        Quote: geniy
                        that is, a Russian underwater carrier against an American surface

                        Where did Virginia go?
            3. 0
              12 September 2018 12: 37
              If the storm, or strong excitement, do not fight? The standard of readiness for take-off of an air wing after ascent takes how long does it take?

              And what do you think - a regular surface ship - in particular, does an aircraft carrier differ greatly in pitching from a submarine of the same displacement? That is, an ordinary aircraft carrier in a storm launches its aircraft or not? Here is the submarine. By the way, the height of the waves in ordinary bad weather is not so high - anyway less than the freeboard. And if the storm is very strong - then the submarine can easily leave this area and emerge in another, where the weather is quieter.
              And you can easily calculate the standard time for the take-off of an air wing yourself. As I said, an underwater aircraft carrier will have two hulls. each of which has 5 (or 6) compartments for aircraft, separated from each other by transverse bulkheads. This means that each compartment will have its own aircraft lift. Total: two hulls in each of five compartments - 5 aircraft lifts per body, total 10 aircraft lifts, and a conventional nuclear-powered American aircraft carrier has 4 aircraft lifts. The height of the aircraft is approximately the same. So yourself and consider the required time for lifting the wing, but not from 200, but from 100 planes with 10 aircraft lifts, for example.
              1. 0
                13 September 2018 13: 36
                Quote: geniy
                And what do you think - a regular surface ship - in particular, does an aircraft carrier differ greatly in pitching from a submarine of the same displacement? That is, an ordinary aircraft carrier in a storm launches its aircraft or not?

                Do you consider the height of the deck from the waterline? When at the AB only splashes reach the deck, at the NPS the waves roll through the cabin.
                Even the old Essexes could carry out takeoff and landing operations in waves of up to 5 points.
                Quote: geniy
                And if the storm is very strong - then the submarine can easily leave this area and emerge in another, where the weather is quieter.

                That is, disrupt the operation. Let the enemy wait half a day - we urgently need to relocate 200 miles. laughing
        2. 0
          13 September 2018 09: 43
          alternative universe from Romario_Argo
          you need to go into orbit - so that the videoconferencing is literally called
          "space troops"
          need a two-medium interceptor a la - Mig-41
          BC: 10 multifunctional missiles: air-to-air / space-to-space / space-to-ship
          and also to have a VTOL aircraft like from the Soviet film "Dungeon of the Witches"
    2. 0
      12 September 2018 08: 02
      The distant hypersonic bomber - = missile carrier - by analogy and purpose as the Tu-160, but of a fundamentally different design - completely made of radio-transparent silicate materials with carbon fiber - that is, absolute invisible flying at an altitude of up to 50 kilometers with a maximum speed of 10 max, and up to the round-the-world flight range - due to the minimum air resistance due to the fact that at an altitude of 50 km - the air is very rarefied - almost absent. Moreover, the main engines of such an aircraft must - must be direct-flow. and overclocking - pulsating reactive.
      1. 0
        12 September 2018 09: 48
        And why do we need this prodigy, if there are hundreds of ICBMs already here and now?
        1. +1
          12 September 2018 10: 44
          And why do we need a Tu-160 if there are hundreds of ICBMs?
          And if you imagine that the war will be non-nuclear and hundreds of ICBMs will not be useful at all, but will be bombed with ordinary bombs and missiles with explosives?
    3. 0
      12 September 2018 08: 16
      3. Multipurpose seaplane-catamaran.
      For Russian naval aviation, a large hydro-catamaran is very necessary, which could easily lie on the surface of the ocean without fear of any storm or hurricane. This is not done only because large aircraft are mainly built from duralumin. And it strongly corrodes in sea water. If you build a seaplane made of fiberglass with a coating, then firstly, such an aircraft will not be afraid of being on the surface of salt water for a long time, and secondly, it will be invisible by radars. Moreover, the seaplane-catamaran will have great stability, and this is not to be afraid of storm waves.
      Such seaplanes can safely lie in the Atlantic and Pacific oceans off the coast of the United States, constantly threatening them - as NATO countries do, placing aircraft in the Baltic republics and in Poland. The distant seaplane catamaran (with two fuselages) will have a small hydrofoil connecting both fuselages, and this hydrofoil will provide takeoff and landing in stormy conditions.
      A seaplane-catamaran will be able to carry missiles, bombs, torpedoes and mines, and deliver bombing attacks on distant countries (for example the USA), as well as in peacetime and wartime, to rescue the crews of sinking ships and submarines, and in addition, the seaplane can land on water and search for submarines. The fact is that the most effective way to detect submarines is to detect them by noise or sonar. But ordinary planes cannot take advantage of this, except for dumping expensive buoys. Helicopters, of course, can hover over the sea and lower the hydroelectric station, but the flight range and helicopter speed are very small. But catamarans seaplanes will be able to operate in any area of ​​the world’s oceans, and when they are calmly listened to listen to it, and then bomb or torpedo a discovered submarine.
      1. +4
        12 September 2018 09: 03
        geniy (Mr. X) Quality trolling, but not level 80 sad
        1. 0
          12 September 2018 11: 22
          You just have a conservative type of thinking. People like you usually shout that something new is impossible or unnecessary, and then, when some discoverer does something that was previously considered impossible, the rest of the crowd try to repeat it. For example, Columbus the First sailed to America, and the crowds rushed there after him. Either the Lumiere brothers invented a movie camera and made the first movie, millions started doing the same after them, or the Montgolfier brothers flew in a hot air balloon, and now thousands of people fly on hot air balloons, or the Wright brothers were the first to fly on an airplane and their father traveled with sermons about that vehicles cannot fly heavier than air. And for the first time, people create new planes, rockets and submarines, fly in the stratosphere and into space, and for the first time plunge into the vast ocean depths. And people like you just shout: This is impossible! It's impossible! It's impossible!
      2. +1
        12 September 2018 13: 04
        Donetsk.
        Yozhkin cat !!! The magazine "Young Technician" with "Technology of Youth" and "Murzilka" in one bottle !!! How old are you boy? ... But audacity is commendable.
      3. 0
        12 September 2018 20: 29
        In general, a good idea, but needs some work. If this seaplane can not wait for its hour on the ocean surface, but to hide at the bottom for stealth, there will be no price for it. True, the design will slightly complicate and the weight will increase, but it's worth it. Go ahead.
        1. 0
          12 September 2018 20: 48
          and in order to stealth at the bottom to hide, he will not be priced

          And you, by the way, are in vain sneering, because creating an underwater aircraft is also not a big problem. Only all laymen think that an underwater plane will necessarily be heavy and will not be able to fly. All laymen forget that there is a "principle of incompressibility" that is, any solid body immersed in water cannot be compressed by any giant water pressure. It is quite another matter if the body is hollow and there is air inside it - then the body will be crushed. And a solid body - for example, fish swim calmly at gigantic depths. So - fiberglass from which you can make an airplane - there is no air in it and it is absolutely incompressible. but inside the wings, keels, stabilizer, and all control surfaces - on the contrary - there is a lot of air, and therefore the plane quickly submerged to a depth will inevitably be crushed. however, if small holes are made in all parts of the plane for free filling of the plane with water, then the water (incompressible liquid) will fill the entire plane and will not crush it. Proof of this - thousands of aircraft from the Second World War, almost intact, lying on the bottom.
          If there are stupid people among the readers who think that I say that you can create a submarine, then you are all mistaken. After all, the main principle of any submarine is free navigation in the water column. And for this, with a non-nuclear submarine, a powerful and very heavy battery is required, with which, of course, no aircraft will take off. But I know other principles - for example, anaerobic. The fact is that there is a small amount of oxygen in seawater, and in principle it can be extracted using artificial gills in the form of a film and used with a small heat engine (for example, Stirling type) for very slow movement. But my opponent offered me the condition for the task that the underwater plane rests calmly on the bottom without any movement, and this task is actually not so difficult, just create a small and very strong capsule for one or two crew members.
  3. +5
    12 September 2018 08: 01
    In Soviet naval aviation, too, not everything was perfect. It is difficult to imagine how the Su-17M or MiG-27 aircraft could solve problems over the sea. Everything is clear about Yak-38 too, I think. The value of Be-12 was also doubtful at the end of the 70's. As for today, the rebirth of MPA makes no sense, because airplanes of this level became piece goods, and even if we suddenly got a new missile carrier to replace the Tu-22M3, release it in such a quantity that it would saturate and the Air Force and MRA would not work. It is better to bring these planes under a single beginning as part of the Air Force DA. In Soviet times, they also largely solved the problem of combating naval targets, at least the Tu-16, Tu-22М3 in the Air Force also aimed at this task, as if strengthening the naval MRA. On tactical aviation, I have long been saying that we must forget about MiGs with our open spaces (alas, ah!) And give the Navy a Su-30СМ regiment for each fleet. Unification rules. He will work on ships, and throw bombs on the coastal flank, and provide air defense. Not to fat - to be alive.
    it’s probably impossible to prepare people capable of equally excellent battle with enemy fighters and perform strike functions.
    Already possible. The air forces of the Western countries are somehow coping with this. In the USSR, this was not possible due to the strict division into IBA, IA, ShA, and even air defense and air force. For which almost different flight schools were preparing. Plus, the degree of automation of many processes was not the same as now. Nowadays, you can at least prepare a pilot who is not as highly specialized as in the USSR. As a last resort, in one regiment Su-30СМ you can have squadrons with your own specialization. 1-th 75% of studies are engaged in-in, 25% - in-class., 2-%, on the contrary, 75% is engaged in-in, 25% - in-in. Something like this.
    History irrefutably testifies that whenever the fleet was deprived of naval aviation, and its tasks were assigned to the Air Force, the latter failed miserably with military operations, demonstrating complete inability to at least somehow effectively fight over the sea.
    Not always. Dalniki also went around the corner with the same task of searching for an AUG as an MPA. And they did a good job. Air defense over the bases of the Navy in the Soviet era was also provided quite well, as an example of which the Korean Boeing was intercepted by the IA Air Defense, and not the Navy. By the way, the presence of the MiG-31 in Kamchatka as part of the Navy, and not the VKS, is perplexing to me. In my understanding, the strength of air defense is in the exchange of information over a common network, and the uniform control of all forces, air defense missiles, RTV and IA. And then there is one regiment on MiGs outside this network among sailors. In my opinion this is not logical. Do not take away tactical aviation strike aircraft from the Navy - this is a fact. There is certainly a specificity in the videoconferencing can not cope with this.
    An air squadron, in turn, consists of several air links, and an air link can include an 3 or 4 airplane or helicopter.
    The ideal regiment of tactical whistles is 3x12 + 4 (regiment control) - 40 airplanes. The long-range workers did not have exadrilles - there were detachments in a squadron of 3 planes, about 30 in a regiment. in terms of takeoff weight, it corresponds, so they also have not squadrons, but detachments. In terms of numbers, this is the ideal. In reality, almost everyone does not have a kit. Where there are 31 airplanes in the state, there may actually be only 40-20. But there are also those where the full staff.
    1. +3
      12 September 2018 08: 32
      Quote: Alex_59
      The ideal regiment of tactical whistles is 3x12 + 4 (regiment control) - 40 airplanes. The long-range drivers did not have exadrilles - there were detachments in a flight of 3 planes, in a regiment about 30. The MiG-31 is also an "aircraft"

      Of course, the Dalniks had squadrons, they all had them. They didn’t have links, they only had whistles — well, these had detachments (instead of links).
      Forty planes in a regiment is a lot (tactical whistles), 30 * combat-ready aircraft, 45 * combat-ready crews, there were approximately 33-35 aircraft in a regiment.
      MiG-31 - "ship", not "ship"
      1. +2
        12 September 2018 08: 47
        Quote: bober1982
        They did not have links, they were only at the whistles - well, these had units (instead of links).

        Right )))
        Quote: bober1982
        MiG-31 - "ship", not "ship"

        I agree too.
        Hurry - you make people laugh. )
        Quote: bober1982
        Forty planes in a regiment is a lot (tactical whistles)

        There are so many in the state. In the 16-th VA there were a lot of such regiments where strictly 40 was. Supported, apparently, the number. In 2008, there were also a couple of regiments where full staff was available.
        1. +1
          12 September 2018 09: 00
          By the way, I liked your comment, and I "plusanulized" it, before I made my remark. As for the lack of AE in long-range vehicles, I immediately caught my eye, I could not restrain myself.
          1. +1
            12 September 2018 10: 12
            Quote: bober1982
            As for the lack of AE in the far-field, it immediately caught my eye, could not resist.

            Yes, I agree, cant. I am not a stranger in aviation, though I am getting more and more "tails", not flying. I was wrong, I was in a hurry))
            1. 0
              12 September 2018 10: 54
              Quote: Alex_59
              I'm not a stranger in aviation

              That's why I put a "plus", you can see from the comment.
        2. +2
          12 September 2018 10: 17
          That's right, on the MiG 31 ship commander.
          And to the author a couple of clarifications, but where did the naval aviation based on Kamchatka and Kola from the MiG 31 article (guys with daggers for a long time ...) have gotten away?
          MiG 31 K with a dagger while in the VKS. When the quantity is brought to 30 pieces, then a decision will be made on basing and submission ...
          Ace pilot, no such thing. There is a pilot BK, 3, 2, 1 class, then a sniper pilot, and finally a well-deserved military pilot. There is also a graduation on test pilots (but this does not apply to this topic)
          1. +1
            13 September 2018 07: 10
            Quote: NN52
            And to the author a couple of clarifications, but where did the naval aviation based on Kamchatka and Kola from the MiG 31 article (guys with daggers for a long time ...) have gotten away?

            As far as I know, they were withdrawn from the Navy all in the same 2011-2012 years. But my knowledge is far from absolute.
            Quote: NN52
            Ace pilot, no such

            With some surprise I read about him in pedagogy.
            Military ace pilot - a military pilot of the 1 class who has an increased raid on all types of aircraft (helicopters) and has performed a certain number of flights for combat use in a row with a rating of "excellent". Class qualifications are awarded by order of the Minister of Defense.
            1. -1
              13 September 2018 09: 55
              Andrei

              Both in Yelizovo and in Monchegorsk MiG 31 are part of the Naval Aviation, for a long time ... Classmates with daggers and white caps ...)
              And about the wiki and ace, fun, laughed at the wiki ... Take my gradation of class as a basis.
              1. 0
                13 September 2018 14: 56
                Thanks I'll know:))) hi drinks
            2. 0
              16 September 2018 22: 27
              Military ace pilot - a military pilot of the 1 class who has an increased raid on all types of aircraft (helicopters) and has performed a certain number of flights for combat use in a row with a rating of "excellent". Class qualifications are awarded by order of the Minister of Defense.
              And then the sniper is the President !? laughing
  4. -3
    12 September 2018 08: 39
    Let me be curious, when did you take up the post of chief military inspector for naval aviation of the Russian Navy, if such exists in nature? With such aplomb and categorical opinion about the state of naval aviation without official data, which are usually classified as classified, without the necessary permissions and without authority from the higher command can only an amateur who does not understand a damn thing either in aviation or in the affairs of the Navy nor in the system of public administration and security. The leadership of our naval aviation and navy are shameful suckers, for nothing receiving pretty decent salaries, and Andryusha from Chelyabinsk, mind the "large seaport" ha-ha twice, decided to teach them how to build a bridge, along the river or across. Pride is an evil thing, you don't need to hit yourself in the chest with a heel, it hurts.
    1. -2
      12 September 2018 08: 51
      Quote: Ros 56
      To argue with such aplomb and categorical

      Here everyone is such, arrogant and illiterate, and not only in discussions about Naval Aviation, about everything. One phrase, one word in the text can be defined.
      1. +7
        12 September 2018 09: 01
        Quote: bober1982
        Here everyone is such, arrogant and illiterate, and not only in discussions about Naval Aviation, about everything. One phrase, one word in the text can be defined.

        But this is in vain you are so. Not all of them. And not everyone was lucky to get into a flight school, but thrust and romance remained. Now such people are sincerely trying to understand and delve into these undoubtedly complex and not easily accessible questions. Understand, understand. For such attention to the flight profession, I would only be happy. Maybe such people make mistakes, but it’s not from evil. And they write clearly not out of a desire to teach someone or gain popularity - that’s not the topic, those who are discussing on a hype on YouTube of Navalny or Sobchak, and not aviation.
        1. The comment was deleted.
          1. +2
            12 September 2018 10: 22
            Quote from rudolf
            Can the Su-34 be adapted for marine aviation? As in my amateurish opinion, I would transfer all the Su-34 VKS to the fleets. Perhaps after an appropriate upgrade.
            Well, my opinion is also amateurish, because I did not design them and do not fly on them. In my understanding, the Su-34 is not suitable for the Navy primarily because it is a clean bomber. And as we see, our situation is far from eating mountains of black caviar - you need something universal. So that the air defense is somehow solved, and the shock tasks. I can still believe that we can give birth to 180-200 Su-30СМ (40 for each fleet + pulp and paper mill for retraining). But so that 200 Su-34 + 200 Su-35С for the Navy alone ... utopia. Not the time, the wrong country.
            Well, in general, strictly speaking, Su-34 is a product of the inertia of thought and the need to give pilots at least something to fly. Nowhere in the world do highly specialized bombers be made, because it is expensive to have such a non-universal airplane. Fighter-bombers are already doing everywhere, and not in the Soviet sense of the term (where the IBA was all the same precisely bombing aircraft).
            1. 0
              12 September 2018 10: 47
              Quote: Alex_59
              where the IBA was still exactly bomber aircraft

              You are mistaken, the IBA never considered themselves to be such, and they never were (bombers). They also had psychology as fighter pilots, they were fighters, and when all ibashnikov transplanted to the Su-24, then this transition was painful for them, although of course they got used to it over time.
              1. +1
                12 September 2018 11: 31
                Quote: bober1982
                You are mistaken, IBA never considered themselves as such, and never were them (bombers).

                I'm not talking about psychology. And the fact that despite the presence of the word "fighter" in the IBA term, in reality, no one seriously set this very IBA exactly the fighter missions to gain air supremacy. In the same volumes, in which this task faced the IA on the MiG-21/23/29.
                1. 0
                  12 September 2018 11: 34
                  Maybe the way you say.
            2. The comment was deleted.
    2. +4
      12 September 2018 10: 09
      Quote: Ros 56
      talk about the state of naval aviation without official data, which are usually classified as secrecy, without the necessary permissions and without authority from the higher command

      You see, this is interconnected.
      If you know a more professionally made review of the situation, be so kind as to provide a link. If not - what was your post? Like, not our mind business?
      Quote: Ros 56
      The leadership of our naval aviation and navy are suckers shameful, for no reason getting pretty decent salaries

      Notice. I did not suggest it. (with)
    3. +1
      12 September 2018 11: 28
      Ros 56 writes: ... not talking about the state of naval aviation official data, which are usually classified as secrecy, not possessing the necessary tolerances and not having authority from a higher command maybe only an amateur

      You are right, a military man who has access to "official data"(whatever that means)) will be prohibited altogether"talk about the state of naval aviation"in open press smile
      This is possible only for a "dilettante", this word is not always (not in all languages) accompanied by a negative meaning))))
  5. 0
    12 September 2018 12: 53
    Plus to the author, we are waiting for the continuation hi
    1. +1
      12 September 2018 13: 24
      geniy plus, we look forward to continuing.
      1. +2
        12 September 2018 13: 32
        geniy with Gridasov to "cross" thoughts, there will be a "bomb" .... Let's read ....
  6. -1
    12 September 2018 13: 46
    DenZ,
    You can graduate from an institute, but you don’t understand history, to put it mildly. Give me examples of where and when to transport tractors and cars in submarines?

    Of course, tractors, cars, tanks, MLRS - in the past, no one ever transported on submarines, simply because diesel submarines were relatively small in size. And if you don't know, then ammunition. food, medicine, and fuel Soviet submarines brought, for example, to the besieged Sevastopol, and tried to bring it to the Hanko Peninsula. And although the tanks were not transported by Soviet submarines, not because this should not have been done, but simply because the tank would not fit into the submarine's hatch. But personally, you should at least understand that submarines come in different sizes - for example, there were Dzhevetsky's submarines, and there are project 941 Akula-type submarines - so, I will personally inform you that the Akula-type submarine is very different in size from the submarine Drzewiecki.
    And there is a nuance of course in the amount of access hatches. if the usual hatch of a submarine for entering personnel has a diameter of 650 mm, then for loading aircraft on an underwater aircraft carrier it is necessary to have a hatch with a width of at least 3,5 meters and a length of about 15 meters. And so you know - the width of the tanks is just within, 3,5 - that is, they can completely go into such a hatch (naturally to the platform of the aircraft lift). And I’ll inform you personally and everyone else: that all planes, tanks, cars, food and fuel - in essence for a ship - is simply a cargo that occupies a certain volume and takes a certain weight. And on most ships, one load is easy to replace with another. Of course, the size of the vessel is decisive - because it is impossible to place a lot of cargo on a small vessel. But on such huge ships as Pl 941 pr 10, you can place a lot of different cargoes, provided that they will have 3,5 hatches with a size of 15 mxXNUMX m in the light.
  7. 0
    12 September 2018 15: 06
    Ros 56 What are you talking about, a genius of design thought.,
    What are you talking about? What was there on the aircraft carriers of the Second World War, and how do they have the work of the deck crew different from that on the submarine nuclear carrier in your opinion?
  8. 0
    12 September 2018 20: 22
    Cherry Nine (1) Today, 16:06
    , In this post, Cherry Nine tried to refute my arguments about the situation that really happened when the whole Soviet Pacific
    the fleet, together with the aircraft, could not find the American aircraft carrier Midway with the entire group of ships supporting it.
    But in fact, the essence of this part of the discussion is: which particular aircraft carrier is more needed for Russia: an atomic submarine, or surface, with a group of support ships? And one of my arguments is that a nuclear submarine has many times greater secrecy of navigation than a surface aircraft carrier. Which in my opinion is easy to spot.
    But the cherry nine brought a fact when they allegedly were not found. But this is a deception of simple-minded readers! The fact is that in its text it is clearly written that Soviet pilots discovered this group of American ships, but not correctly identified her !!
    As it turned out later, when flying east of the Kuril Islands, the radar operator in the porthole discovered a group of lights, but did not attach any importance to this, since he had the task of detecting the Enterprise AUG. The pilots successfully coped with this task. In fact, they flew just above the ships of the AUG Midway

    And the second time this AUG was discovered
    a pair of reconnaissance aircraft TU-16R of the 169th mixed air regiment of the Pacific Fleet. According to their report, they were intercepted by carrier-based carrier-based fighter aircraft. And another puncture. In the report, they do not indicate the types of fighters that accompanied them. As it turned out from the pictures, they were intercepted by F-4 Phantom fighters, which remained only on the Midway aircraft carrier.

    And the third time this AUG was discovered
    And only on the afternoon of Sunday did we receive a report from our coastal squadron in Kamchatka that our posts note the operation of ships at the midway frequencies of the Midway AUG.

    That is, the real loss of control over the movement of the AUG Midway was only 2 days. And if, instead of a surface aircraft carrier, an underwater atomic aircraft operated, how many days would the Americans lose it?
    1. +2
      12 September 2018 20: 42
      Quote: geniy
      But actually the essence of this part of the discussion is ...

      ... that there are trolls / lunatics who are accurate in the details and very aware of their topic, even if they carry drug addiction in general. Communicating with them can be informative. It was necessary to check whether you relate to them, simply their considerations of humanism.
      Quote: geniy
      it is a deception of simple readers!

      Empty demagoguery. I quoted your argument, which disproved.
  9. +1
    12 September 2018 21: 12
    Of the MC-21 would have done an analog P-8 Poseidon, it would be nice.
  10. 0
    12 September 2018 21: 12
    Cherry nine,
    that is, a Russian underwater carrier against an American surface
    Where did Virginia go?

    Few readers understood that my esteemed opponent suggested that I compare the combat effectiveness of surface and underwater aircraft carriers in obviously unequal conditions. That is, one Russian even a submarine against the entire American carrier group, and in addition reinforced with at least one, or even several atomic submarines such as Virginia. Well then, let's take a look.
    So, a lonely Russian nuclear-powered aircraft carrier, by the sound of screw noise from afar - from 500 km to 1000 km, found the noise of the screws of a large group of ships. This is because surface ships are much more noisy than a submarine - they have cavitation. A submarine is capable of diving to a depth of up to 400-600 meters, where there are so-called underwater sound channels - just sounds spread over gigantic ranges. And so the Russian submarine discovered the enemy group AUG, but they didn’t. Then, at a certain range, for example, 500 km, our submarine pops up and lifts into the air first small uncontrolled drones, long-range reconnaissance scouts who fly around the American AOG and, before they are shot, have time to communicate information about the exact location of the American by radio communication AUG.
    Then the commander of the Russian nuclear submarine aircraft carrier pops up and releases into the air an attack air group of about 100 units, leaving 100 more in reserve. This group initially flies very low above the water - at an altitude of several tens of meters, so that they cannot be detected by American AUG radars that operate for 40 km. Then the Russian strike group flies around the American AUG - not to give them directions to their ship and attack the Americans. There is likely to be a small air battle with a couple or four of the American fighter on duty, who will quickly be shot down by hundreds of our aircraft. And then our planes will severely damage or sink part of the ships of the American aircraft carrier group, so that the American aircraft carrier that has received a roll will not be able to launch and receive aircraft onto its deck. Then the second wave of Russian aircraft will finish the whole American AUG to the end. After that, the remaining Russian planes take to the air with packs of sonar buoys, and easily find the American nuclear submarines of the aircraft carrier in the same area, and if they find them, Russian planes drop homing anti-submarine torpedoes on them. All. On this curtain. Any American aircraft carrier group together with their submarines will be completely destroyed.
    1. +3
      13 September 2018 07: 05
      Quote: geniy
      So, the lonely Russian nuclear-powered aircraft carrier, by the sound of the noise of the propellers from afar - from 500 km to 1000 km, found the noise of the propellers of a large group of ships.

      Taking into account that even the theoretical detection range of the SAC today is about 250-320 km, despite the fact that in life it is practically never achieved and that all attempts to create an "underwater AWACS" have not yet been crowned with success, this statement unambiguously takes the 1st place in the nomination "stoned fantasy 2018"
      But in reality it will be like this - an underwater aircraft carrier, when trying to exit the base, destroys the enemy’s nuclear submarines deployed in close proximity to it. Everything.
      Quote: geniy
      Then the commander of the Russian nuclear submarine aircraft carrier pops up and releases into the air an attack air group of about 100 units, leaving 100 in reserve

      An air group in 200 aircraft (yes, in fact, in 20 aircraft) is possible on an SSBN of the 941 level exclusively in narcotic dreams. The proposed placement of aircraft is impossible even theoretically.
      1. 0
        13 September 2018 10: 59
        But in reality it will be like this - an underwater aircraft carrier, when trying to exit the base, destroys the enemy’s nuclear submarines deployed in close proximity to it. All

        It seems to me that, given the history of the “Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Gorshkov,” everything will be even simpler wink
        And, unfortunately, this is not the only example of domestic capabilities. But then he was at least launched into the water. If we recall the epic "The Rescuer of Peter the Gruzinsky", then it is generally sad. Most likely, this unit simply will not leave the slipway ...
      2. +2
        13 September 2018 13: 44
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        But in reality it will be like this - an underwater aircraft carrier, when trying to exit the base, destroys the enemy’s nuclear submarines deployed in close proximity to it.

        More precisely, submarine carrier when trying to exit the base flies on a minefield - and the enemy’s nuclear submarine records its destruction. Because there will not be exactly the means for the fleet after ordering such a crook for the fleet. smile
        1. +1
          13 September 2018 16: 06
          Quote: Alexey RA
          More precisely, an underwater aircraft carrier, when trying to exit the base, flies into a minefield

          It’s easy - but since they will be put with the probability of 99,9% by the same nuclear submarines, I just didn’t specify what exactly they would drown it with
          1. +1
            13 September 2018 16: 47
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            It’s easy - but since they will be put with the probability of 99,9% by the same nuclear submarines, I just didn’t specify what exactly they would drown it with

            Logical. Yes
            There is really no one else to secretly place "captors" or self-transporting mines near the fleet base.
        2. 0
          16 September 2018 09: 26
          But in reality it will be like this - an underwater aircraft carrier, when trying to exit the base, destroys the enemy’s nuclear submarines deployed in close proximity to it.

          More precisely, an underwater aircraft carrier, when trying to exit the base, flies into a minefield - and the enemy’s nuclear submarines record its destruction

          Covertly place "captors" or self-transporting mines near the base of the fleet

          Do readers of military review understand the desire of my conservatively minded opponents to discredit the idea of ​​an underwater aircraft carrier? Allegedly, such a submarine is very easy to drown by simply placing American mines near the bases of the Russian fleet? And then they apply triple deception. 1 As if the captors would hit only one submarine carrier, and all other types of Russian submarines would remain invulnerable with these mines.
          2 type of deception: as if American submarines in the event of war would approach the Russian coast without any opposition and would not be sunk by Russian ships.
          If naive readers do not understand what lies here, then I will explain. It has already happened many times when high military commanders and leaders of states mistakenly assumed that they would attack Russia and it would not render them any proper opposition. So, for example, Napoleon and Hitler assumed. My opponents also suggest the same: Alexey RA, Andrey from Chelyabinsk and frog. They say the Americans want to attack Russia - and at the same time their submarines easily put minefields near Russian bases, and stupid Russians will not have any resistance to the American submarines. In the same way, both Napoleon and Hitler reasoned.
      3. 0
        14 September 2018 08: 28
        An air group of 200 aircraft (yes, in fact, of 20 aircraft) is possible on an SSBN of level 941 exclusively in narcotic dreams. Proposed to you
        This remark clearly demonstrates Andrei's complete ignorance of the features of underwater shipbuilding.
        And in general - few people know that for any ship, dry cargo - the problem is not primarily that the cargo takes weight, but that the specific volume of most cargo is much lighter than water. And especially if this cargo is an airplane. Take for example the MiG-29 fighter. Its dimensions, even with the wing folded, are 7,8 m wide, 17 m long, and 5 m high, multiplying these parameters we get an overall volume of 680 cubic meters, and take-off weight is even the maximum with 22 t hanging tanks, dividing tons per cubic meter we get amazingly low density: 0,03 !!! Thus, any aircraft inside the ship is essentially just a fluff that weighs nothing, but takes up a huge volume compared to its weight. And if we take into account that the aircraft need to be moved inside the aircraft carrier’s hangar and there is a clear road for this, and besides, the height of the aircraft carrier’s hangars is taken with a large margin, that is, if the actual height is instant-29 = 5 m, then the height of the hangars is much larger - and all this included in unused volume.
        And if ordinary surface aircraft carriers can so madly banish over the ship, then for the underwater aircraft carrier such a wild expenditure of volumes is simply unacceptable.
        Therefore, when designing an underwater aircraft carrier, I took all measures to reduce the overall volume of aircraft. Firstly: folding the wings of not only the consoles, but also the entire wing from its root, which gives a decrease in overall width instead of 7,8 m, will become 3 m. Secondly: to store planes in the below-deck hangar with the wheels removed on special trolleys - this will reduce overall height by 1 m. Third: folding the vertical keels into a horizontal position will reduce the height by another m, total overall height will be 3 m. And in the fourth, as the original designers of the ship Mig-29 originally intended to make the radar fair-hinged sideways - which will reduce the overall length to 13 m. In total, the volume of the parallelepiped occupied by the Mig-29 fighter will become 117 cubic meters.
        And now, anyone who knows how to count could himself calculate the number of aircraft that theoretically can be placed inside an underwater aircraft carrier. As I wrote earlier: the diameter of the durable hull is 20 m and the length of the cylindrical insert is about 100 m, and two hulls are on the catamaran. The cross-sectional area of ​​the frames of the cylindrical insert is calculated according to the well-known circle formula: the radius squared multiplied by the number Pi. 10х10х3,14 = 314 square meters, and to calculate the volume of one durable case, we multiply by the length of the cylindrical insert 100 m, we get 31, and round down to 400 cubic meters. Remembering that the catamaran has two hulls, we multiply by 30, and we get the total volume of cylindrical inserts - 000 cubic meters. And now dividing this figure by the volume of one parallelepiped of one Mi-2 when folded 60 cubes = we get the theoretically possible number of aircraft on an underwater carrier 000!
        That is, not only not 20, as Andrei thinks, and not even 200, but 512 !! . But if you take into account that the cylindrical insert has rounding points in which it is impossible to place airplanes, and you also need to leave space for vertical elevators, as well as places for machine tools for repair shops and small cabins for the crew, then the real number of aircraft will be about 200. So, nothing fantastic. It’s just that Andrei and his like-minded people mentally share the same crazy approach to using ship volumes as on surface aircraft carriers.
      4. 0
        14 September 2018 09: 16
        Andrey from Chelyabinsk: Taking into account that even the theoretical detection range of the SAC today is about 250-320 km, despite the fact that in life it is practically never achieved and that all attempts to create an "underwater AWACS" have not yet been crowned with success, this statement is unambiguous takes 1st place in the nomination "stoned fantasy 2018"

        Regarding the detection range: there is a law: whoever first discovered the enemy and struck at that blow, then most often becomes the winner. Who first got up - that and slippers. For brevity, I have cited only one type of detection of an aircraft carrier group, but in reality there can be several: 1) direction finding, and 2) visual from a satellite, and 3) infrared, and 4) radar from a satellite, and 5) third-party means (by air , surface ships, drones), and other ways.
        However, Andrei allegedly accused me of overestimating the detection range of sonar. Moreover, he gave the correct figure, which is actually actually even less. That's just Andrew did not take into account some features. The fact is that it is very important to know in which way and under what conditions this or that parameter is measured, and here there are often tricks. For example, a method of calculating armor penetration in the Soviet Union and in England. If in the USSR the standard of armor penetration was the figure of 80% of the weight of the projectile that should be behind the broken armor, then in England, on the contrary, only 20% of the weight of the projectile that pierced the armor was allowed, and let the remaining 80% remain in front of the armor. Here are about the same problems with measuring the range of sonar. This parameter is very dependent on depth. The fact is that there are underwater sound channels through which sounds in the oceans spread over vast distances. The sound of small explosions (1-2 kg of explosives) was recorded at distances of thousands of kilometers - once it was recorded at 19 kilometers! And the whales use this factor to negotiate with each other over distances of thousands of kilometers.
        However, the difficulty here is that the depth of the underwater channels is very great: in the middle latitudes - at a depth of 1000-1200, and in the tropical 2000 m.
        The operating depth of the Los Angeles-class nuclear submarine is only 280 m (maximum 450), the maximum in Virginia is only 488 m, the Sea-Wolf is 480 m and the maximum is 600 m. But the fact is that in all oceans at shallow depths the so-called sound-scattering layer is located - that is, an accumulation of plankton from all sorts of small crustaceans. And the depth of this layer coincides exactly with the depth of immersion of modern submarines: the sound-scattering layer from a depth of 400 m to 600 m.That is, all modern submarines are forced to operate in unfavorable hydrological conditions - in a sound-scattering layer, which creates the natural noise of the sea, which hides the noises of enemy ships. Now, if submarines could dive to depths of 1000-1200 m, and in the tropics up to 2000 m, then the detection range of hydroacoustics would increase to thousands of kilometers.
        Many people think that such a depth is absolutely impossible (except for the only nuclear submarine of the Komsomolets type). But in fact, I know certain secrets of underwater shipbuilding, which are carefully hidden not only from the public, but even from ourselves - from shipbuilders. And without any work, you can increase the depth of immersion several times, only due to one factor, and bring it much deeper than 1200 m. And if you use another factor - equal strength. The fact is that any submarine, and in general all structures created by man - in fact, are not equal at all. That is, they have many nodes that are either much stronger than a given value, or slightly less. And if using a special verification method to identify weak points, and strengthen them, which will require very little weight, then the submersion depth (taking into account the first factor) up to about 4 kilometers. And there is also a third factor - which was even used in the Soviet Navy, and this factor is sometimes mentioned, but it is never put on display, and an amazing thing - even professionals are not aware of the existence of such a factor! So - if we apply the third factor in addition to the first two - then the submersion depth can be brought up to 6 kilometers, at which 98% of the seabed, and only the remaining 2%, fall into different deep-sea depressions, including Mariana.
        1. 0
          14 September 2018 19: 03
          Genius, I just have no words. I’m silent about the method of calculation - to divide the amount of free space into the space for storage of one aircraft in cubes, even a junior school student should not allow such nonsense. I’m silent that planes are not only planes, they are still thousands of tons of fuel and ammunition that need to be disposed of somewhere, and thousands (at least hundreds) of people who should serve them.
          But what, you could not look at the section of the 941 project? :))))
          There is no "100-meter" insert there. The missile silos are located BETWEEN the "cylinders", that is, the width of the strong body is 23 meters - this is the width of two "cylinders" and a PLUS to this - the width of the missile silos :))) Therefore, the "formula"
          Quote: geniy
          10x10x3,14 = 314 square meters,

          goes to the furnace, cylinders where as already 10 m :)))
          Further. Even these cylinders are fully occupied by equipment and people - there is NO free space there. Missiles cost SEPARATELY, and equipment for their maintenance / launch takes up much less space than equipment for working with aircraft aircraft carriers (elevators, refueling system, ammunition supply system, etc.). That is, the only place where you could stick the planes is the place of the missile silos, but the bad thing is that there is a minuscule place and some of it will still have to be given for the placement of people and equipment :))))
          And if we recall that for AB, you still need to think something with a catapult or springboard, with a flight deck, which is not on the SSBN, and which needs to be raised much higher than the surface of a solid hull, then we understand that this whole fantasy is enchanting bullshit
          1. 0
            14 September 2018 20: 04
            Andrey - do you even know how to read? I'm not talking about how to understand the meaning of other people written? Of course, I made a more or less detailed description of the underwater carrier in different places on the VO website, but still ... The essence of my project is that it is not a Project 941 boat at all, but almost a completely new ship! From the project 941 for the new ship, only the aft part with nuclear reactors, turbines and propellers can be taken, and in the entire middle part together with all the missile shafts - simply cut off and scrapped! . Do you even understand this or not? I.e there are no rocket mines in my project at all! Is it really incomprehensible?
            But what, you could not look at the section of the 941 project? :))))
            There is no "100-meter" insert there. Rocket silos are placed BETWEEN the "cylinders", that is

            And in my project there is a 100-meter cylindrical insert! And I don’t give a damn about the 941 project.
            Look at the picture: at the top there is a section along the midship of project 941, and below is a section of my project of an underwater aircraft carrier, and the diameter of the solid hulls in my project is about 20 m, unlike the project 941, where the solid hulls are about 12 m in diameter.

            And if the project 941 has a width of 23 meters, then my project has a width of about 50 meters along the deck!
            it’s not only airplanes, it’s still thousands of tons of fuel and ammunition that need to be located somewhere, and thousands (at least hundreds) of people who must serve them.

            Do you know how to count? as I said - the approximate number of aircraft is 200, 117 cubic meters each — that is, the total aircraft occupy only 23 cubic meters, and after all the volume of the cylindrical insert is 400. So, do the simplest operation of subtraction if you studied from 60 to 000 at school = 60 cubic meters free! thirty six thousand cubic meters! Yes, post what you want! By the way, in solid buildings only ammunition - bombs and missiles, and all fuel - only in external tanks and the fuel supply is huge - about 20 thousand tons !! Likewise, the aircraft maintenance team is full of space. The flight deck is actually a deck superstructure that rises about 5 meters above the hulls. And about the catapults - I already wrote. At first, the MIG-29 will not be simple, but a short take-off and landing, and catapults - gas turbine engines with a drum winding the pulling rope - and the old planes are similar to those of gliders due to a winch. If you only know what it is.
  11. +1
    13 September 2018 03: 40
    In general, everything is correct, but there are small amendments: in Kamchatka, there is a regiment of Mig-31 sailors in addition to the mixed submarine, and about the Il-38, too, not everything is so (50 boards), I know that there are 4-6 aircraft left in Primorye in the mixed regiment, well, in Yelizovo, probably the same, I doubt that the rest are on the Northern Fleet, there they are also in the mixed regiment and apparently no more than a squadron. So the picture is even worse. Judging by the official data and not only by the "naval aviation", these guys consider all the equipment that is not sawn, in one word they drive a muddy picture
    1. 0
      13 September 2018 13: 48
      Quote: sid20003
      I know that in Primorye there are 4-6 aircraft left in the mixed regimentWell, probably in Yelizovo

      Well, when did the 22 giap manage to hit the MiG-31, received from 2015 to 2017?
      According to publications on the web resources russianplanes.net and forums.airforce.ru, at the beginning of August 2017 The 22nd Guards Fighter Aviation Regiment of the 303rd Guards Combined Aviation Division of the 11th Air Force and Air Defense Forces of the Eastern Military District entered the Central Angular Airfield of Primorsky Krai three upgraded fighter-interceptor MiG-31BM - fighters with blue side numbers "56", "57" and "58", which have been modernized at the Nizhny Novgorod aircraft building plant "Sokol" (NAZ "Sokol", a branch of JSC "RSK MiG"). The planes made an independent flight from Nizhny Novgorod.

      Previously, the 22nd Aviation Regiment received 19 upgraded MiG-31 fighters, also modernized at the Sokol. First three modernized MiG-31BSM cars with blue side numbers "94", "95" and "96" arrived in the regiment in December 2015 years, yet two upgraded MiG-31BM with blue side numbers "97" and "98" - in March 2016 of the year, yet three MiG-31BM with blue side numbers "82", "83" and "99" - in November 2016 years, yet six MiG-31BM with blue side numbers "60", "62", "68", "69", "80" and "81" - at the beginning of 2017 of the year (these aircraft were upgraded at the Sokol NAZ under the 2016 program), three more with blue side numbers "59", "66" and "67" - received at the end of April 2017and two more with blue side numbers "63" and "64" - in june year 2017.
      © bmpd
  12. 0
    13 September 2018 13: 05
    We previously said that in 2008, naval aviation may have consisted of 450 planes and helicopters, and this seems to be an impressive force. But, apparently, for the most part it existed only on paper: for example, the 689th Guards Fighter Aviation Regiment, formerly part of the Baltic Fleet, quickly “shrunk” to the size of a squadron

    In principle, the combat readiness of the MA can be assessed "from above" by the neighbors from the Air Force. When, upon the arrival of the furniture maker, the reform of the Air Force began, it turned out that one real one could be assembled from three paper shelves.

    In the Far East, then they collected 22 giap "named swan cancer and pike"- which has three squadrons on three and a half types of aircraft (counting the Su-30M2 and SM together for one and a half types):
    22 giap does not cease to please with its composition.
    TECh is probably very happy to service 5 models and modifications of aircraft of two different design bureaus. And the management and headquarters - to harness a horse and a quivering doe into one cart ... in the sense that the regiment is simultaneously armed with long-range heavy interceptors "flying S-300", multipurpose fighters Su-30M2 and SM and super-maneuverable Su-35S, sharpened under the air battle.
    He would still flashlight on the forehead the fourth squadron on the MiG-29 or Su-34 for complete happiness.
    1. -1
      13 September 2018 14: 52
      Now add one more type of Su 35C there ... To the corner ...
  13. 0
    13 September 2018 13: 13
    As for the other fleets, the Pacific and Baltic fleets today do not have their own fighter aircraft at all

    Wait a minute ... but what about the only naval aviation 865 IAP on the MiG-31 sitting in Kamchatka in Yelizovo?
    True, evil tongues slander that in the regiment of combat-ready vehicles - one squadron.
    1. -1
      13 September 2018 14: 48
      The Yelizovtsy guys have already retrained (Savasleyk's theory) for the modernized ones .... Now they are waiting for replenishment in their "family" ...
    2. 0
      13 September 2018 14: 54
      Quote: Alexey RA
      Wait a minute ... but what about the only naval aviation 865 IAP on the MiG-31 sitting in Kamchatka in Yelizovo?

      According to my data, it was given to the Air Force. I am wrong?
      1. 0
        13 September 2018 17: 29
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        According to my data, it was given to the Air Force. I am wrong?

        Hmmm ... as of July 2017, the Kamchatka MiG-31s ​​were still marine. True, it was not a regiment, but a squadron of the 7060th air base of the Pacific Fleet:
        The Yelizovsky interceptor squadron is part of the 7060th Pacific Fleet naval airbase. This is a unique aviation division. In total, the Russian Navy has two squadrons of heavy interceptors. In addition to Kamchatka, “combat aircraft” are based in the Murmansk region.
      2. -1
        13 September 2018 21: 50
        Kamchadals ..

        Please pay attention to the flag on the air intake ...
        MiG 31 BS
        1. -1
          13 September 2018 21: 53

          From the Kola MiG 31 BM ..
          Attention to the keel and flag ...
          1. +1
            14 September 2018 11: 02
            Quote: NN52
            Attention to the keel and flag ...

            In principle, there is enough keel smile Clearly read MA Navy of Russia.
  14. 0
    13 September 2018 19: 50
    Ka-8? This? http://www.airwar.ru/enc/heli/ka8.html
    wassat
    1. +1
      16 September 2018 21: 53
      The author described Ka-28
  15. -1
    15 September 2018 22: 14
    Quote: geniy
    Because now all surface ships are easily detected from satellites and all their movement is known with an accuracy of one meter.

    Each ship is assigned a personal satellite. Movement is known, there is nothing to add, not to diminish. But provided that the satellite detected the ship .... And if not, alas, it will not be known with an accuracy of 1 meter. Yes, and up to 1 km too ...

    Quote: geniy
    Of course, tractors, cars, tanks, MLRS - in the past, no one ever transported in submarines, simply because diesel submarines were relatively small in size ..

    When they became large, projects appeared that remained paper. There was even a project to create a transport boat based on project 941. When they considered it, it turned out that these projects were delusional ...

    Quote: geniy
    But personally, you should at least understand that submarines come in different sizes - for example, there were Dzhevetsky's submarines, and there are project 941 Akula-type submarines - so, I will personally inform you that the Akula-type submarine is very different in size from the submarine Dzhevetskiy ..

    Well, thank you, dear father, he opened our eyes, otherwise we fuckers believed that the boats were the size of Dzhekvetsky's boat and remained. Only the stillborn projects, such as 717 and 748, remained stillborn. And they could transport (717 project) as many as 20 PT-76 tanks or 800 airborne troops. True, this monster was 190 meters long, 23 meters wide and 6,8 meters deep. And he could dive as much as 300 meters. But the mugs from the General Staff of the USSR Navy could not see the genius of this project and insolently "stabbed" it ...

    Quote: geniy
    That is, one Russian even a submarine against the entire American carrier group, and in addition reinforced with at least one, or even several atomic submarines such as Virginia.

    Your opponent asked a specific question. Vedt aircraft carriers (American) do not go alone. and as part of the AUG order there is also a pair of nuclear submarines. Alas, comparing the aircraft carrier with your underwater monster is pointless. I do not even ask questions about the strength of folding elements of aircraft. You fantasize, but your fantasies have no real basis. Are you going to launch aircraft in two directions from an underwater carrier without the help of catapults? And what kind of running start do you need? Will there be a place with the mishmash that you are going to arrange on the flight deck of an underwater aircraft carrier? I'm not talking about the vertical dimensions of the body of this underwater monster. And how do you just get it, the aircraft carrier surfaced and sent the planes to the target? Where is the target? Are there enemy planes in the air that only need a couple of rocket attacks on your aircraft carrier to multiply it by zero? After all, there will be no radars, how do you know where and who? And what do you do, let out airplanes or dive deep again.

    Quote: geniy
    That's just Andrew did not take into account some features. The fact is that it is very important to know in which way and under what conditions this or that parameter is measured, and here there are often tricks. For example, a method of calculating armor penetration in the Soviet Union and in England.

    Well, damn it, you start to bustle and translate arrows on another topic (armor penetration). In this case, I don’t care what the calculation method is if the HAC cannot detect the target at a distance of more than 250 km (and not 1000 km, as you have). The satellite constellation is not a panacea. Even if a satellite is detected by an enemy aircraft carrier, moving at a speed of 25 knots heading, for example 160, it is not a fact that 10 minutes after the satellite’s flight, the target will not change speed and course. Moreover, any ship, any military unit has documentation related to satellite conditions. And from most satellites, such a group will be able to dodge. In order to closely monitor the same AUG, you must at least have several dozen satellites for various purposes and it is desirable that they all overlap a not very large area. Then you can find
    To detect the exit of an underwater monster aircraft carrier from the base is not God knows what a difficult task. And given the size of this monster, it will be robust. It will be enough for a "hunter" to simply "cling" to it and lead for a while, until it leaves the zone of action of coastal aviation. And then just cover it with a torpedo salvo. Burying both the boat and 200 aircraft. And with the condition that this monster will not have any accompaniment, he is a "loner" - the khan will be almost 100%

    Quote: geniy
    Do you know how to count? as I said - the approximate number of aircraft is 200, 117 cubic meters each — that is, the total aircraft occupy only 23 cubic meters, and after all the volume of the cylindrical insert is 400. So, do the simplest operation of subtraction if you studied from 60 to 000 at school = 60 cubic meters free!

    He himself calculated that the volume of the cylinder was 31400 cubic meters. It is super stupid to count the number of airplanes, given their occupied volume. Do you have them standing in several rows on top of each other? Or on the deck of this cylindrical insert? Proceed from this, and do not drag the result by the ears ...

    Quote: geniy
    By the way, in durable buildings there is only ammunition - bombs and missiles, and all fuel is only in external tanks and the fuel supply is huge - about 20 thousand tons !!

    And where will these tanks be located? Outside the enclosure? How many times with such resistance will the speed of your aircraft carrier, shipbuilder, drop?

    Quote: geniy
    The flight deck is actually a deck superstructure that rises about 5 meters above the hulls. And about the catapults - I already wrote. At first, the MIG-29 will not be simple, but a short take-off and landing, and catapults - gas turbine engines with a drum for winding the pulling rope - and the old planes are similar to gliders due to a winch. If you only know what it is.

    Yeah. And will you lift planes on this deck with holy spirit? And the reels for winding the cable, will also be on the upper deck? Do not compare a glider weighing several tens or hundreds of kilograms with an airplane of several tens of tons ...

    Better than "pushing" such projects, start writing alternative fiction. There, at least it will not cause a corresponding reaction.
  16. +2
    16 September 2018 21: 52
    The article has a good analysis. But many are not accurate. In the Navy aviation in the early 2000s, the structure of the regiments of two squadrons was adopted, and so it has remained so far. Mi-14 helicopters have not been in service since 1997. There is no regiment at BSF 917. In the dashing year of 2009 (the reform of Serdukov), the MA was squeezed even more into airbases, but after 15 years, they returned to the regiments of two squadron types. According to the Su-30SM, they are a multifunctional aircraft, therefore, they are faced with the tasks of air defense and the defeat of surface and ground targets. The count is of course overpriced. The problem of the Navy MA exists. This is especially evident now. Structural construction of the Navy MA defies understanding. The tasks assigned to naval aviation, the full-time structure, cannot fully solve it, there are not enough forces.
    It's nice that someone else cares about the fate of the Navy MA. Thanks to the author for the article.
    And by quote Leather. To prepare a 1st-class pilot in the Navy MA even in Soviet times, it was 5-7 years old, now it takes 5-10 years (5 years with a very good deal, regardless of his talent). Factors influencing the receipt of a class:
    Firstly, the availability of the required number of operational aircraft;
    secondly, the required number of instructors of various ranks;
    and thirdly, competent planning of flight training for flight personnel;
    and finally in the fourth fuel limit for the year.
    Judging by Kozhan's quote, he has long been divorced from the realities of training pilots in the regiments of MA, which indicates not very high competence. Hence the state of the Navy MA itself.
  17. exo
    0
    18 September 2018 11: 41
    Are they really preserved in the Mi-14 fleet? Something, do not flash anywhere.
    But as a fact: fleet aviation, its main tasks, can not be completed. And the prospects are not yet visible.
  18. The comment was deleted.
  19. 0
    28 September 2018 21: 57
    bayard,
    Why from another? From the same. The vanguard has so far been set only on the UR-100UTTX. 1 Vanguard instead of 6 BB per missile. Those. This is an ICBM for guaranteed destruction of one target. Which one? What could be more important and more difficult than hitting a base that is well protected by air defense / missile defense? And it must be hit, it’s critical. Without a caput, Dallas wouldn’t have anything terrible, but if a couple of bases with weapons survive, the alignment of post-nuclear forces will greatly change not in our favor.
    Conclusion - for the Vanguard base - this is his target. As for the Dagger - perhaps if everything is confirmed. But no one will count on second launches, and even air, in a nuclear war, there are other standards of reliability.
  20. 0
    9 December 2018 19: 16
    It would be better if the continuation would not follow.
  21. 0
    18 May 2019 02: 10
    As you know, marine missile aircraft ceased to exist.

    On the website of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation here is such official information:
    Functionally, marine aviation is divided into aviation types: marine missileYu; anti-submarine; fighter; reconnaissance and auxiliary purposes (long-range radar detection and guidance, electronic warfare, anti-mine, control and communications, fueling aircraft in the air, search and rescue, transport, sanitary).

    That is, missile-bearing naval aviation in Russia still exists ... at least officially.