The myth of the Tatar-Mongol yoke

684
The myth of the Tatar-Mongol yoke
Siege of Moscow by Tokhtamysh. facial vault


"Mongols from Mongolia"


The hordes of Batu attacked the Polovtsians, Volga Bulgaria and Rus'. They defeated and conquered the Polovtsian steppe, the Volgars-Bulgars (future Kazan Tatars) and the fragmented Russian principalities. The terrible "Mongol-Tatar yoke" began. This is the official version that has been promoted in Russia since the time of Karamzin.



True, there are many facts that do not fit into this version. The fake about "Mongols from Mongolia" was launched by the papal envoy Plano Carpini and other agents of the Vatican.

Firstly, there were no "Mongols" in Rus'. There were battles, destroyed cities. But there were no Mongols. Archeology shows that Caucasians - representatives of the white race - fought on both sides. There were no hordes of Mongols-Mongoloids in Europe. This is shown by modern genetic studies. Attempts to find "Mongoloidness" in Russians ended in complete failure.

Although the centuries-old stay of a large number of "Mongols" in the Golden Horde, given the dominance of racial characteristics (in a simple way: a Russian mother and a Mongol father will have children with a predominance of Mongoloid racial characteristics), should have left corresponding racial traces. But they are not! That is, there were no "Mongolian" hordes in Eastern Europe!

Secondly, the then Mongols were at a low level of spiritual and material development - shepherds, cattle breeders and hunters. Approximately, like the Indians of the tribes of North America. Accordingly, a handful of shepherd-hunters simply could not create an invincible army, arm it and crush the developed, strong neighboring kingdoms. Create the greatest Eurasian empire. For this, an appropriate level of development was needed.

enough to know history: Assyria, Babylon, the Persian Empire, the Empire of Alexander the Great or the Roman Empire had a correspondingly high level of development, economy, made revolutions in military affairs (for example, the Macedonian phalanx or the Roman legion).

Nothing has changed in the new history. Napoleon crushed almost all of Europe. The Second and Third Reichs were the leading economies in Europe. Hitler got all the resources of Europe. The Soviet superpower is the second economy in the world. The only modern superpower is the United States, the world's first economy, advanced technologies, including military ones.

That is, to create a great empire, an appropriate spiritual, organizational, material, economic, and technological potential is required. The Mongolian shepherds did not have it. Like the Indians of North America, otherwise they would have easily swept away the first bunch of European slave-pirates. A handful of shepherds and hunters could not conquer huge China or Rus', even fragmented. Create a huge and developed empire with dozens of city-cities.

White (Golden) Horde-Rod


This is already enough to understand that there were no Mongol-Tatars in Rus'. They were invented to distort, cut off the true multi-thousand-year history of Rus'-Russia. In fact, Rus' was the direct heir to the ancient northern civilization - the legendary Hyperborea, the kingdom of the Aryans-Rus and Great Scythia.

Hyperborea-Aryans-Scythians-Russ lived on our land, in the north of Eurasia since ancient times. From Central Europe, the Balkans and the Carpathians in the west to the borders of China and Japan in the east. Great, advanced civilization. With a powerful spiritual tradition, material culture. The clans of the Rus lived in present-day Germany and Austria (during the onslaught to the East, they were crushed by Catholic Rome - "Slavic Atlantis" in Central Europe). Rus-Russia was created by the Russ families who lived in Novgorod, Kyiv, Chernigov, Smolensk and Suzdal.

There was a huge Scythian-Siberian world of pagan Rus. Known in the annals as "filthy", that is, not Christians. For thousands of years they led a semi-nomadic and at the same time agricultural way of life. It was they who conquered China, Central Asia, conquered the Bulgars (Tatars-Volgars), defeated and included the Polovtsians (also the heirs of Scythia - Caucasians, the closest relatives of the Rus from Kyiv or Chernigov) and invaded the Russian principalities.

The Horde is Rod, Rada. Tumen - darkness, ten thousand warriors. Khan - kokhan, kohan, beloved, respected. This word has been known in Rus' since the time of the Khazaria. So, Prince Vladimir the Baptist was called a kagan. The notorious "Mongols" is a nickname, "Moguls - powerful, great." The "Moguls" did not bring a single Mongolian word to Rus', did not leave a single Mongoloid skull, no Mongoloid racial signs. Because there were no Mongols in Rus'.

But the battle between Christian Rus and pagan Rus of the Scythian-Siberian world (hence the "animal" style of dress, tradition) was fierce. Russ with Russ always fight very cruelly. Nothing has changed in the modern world: Russians-Great Russians are fighting with Russians-Little Russians.

It was a big mess. The princes-khans fought for power over a vast territory. At the same time, they fraternized, like Yaroslav Nevsky with Batu's son Sartak, gave their daughters in marriage to each other, spoke the same language. Russian squads with the Horde went to Europe and the Caucasus. Then they completely mixed up. The Horde naturally became Russian by the time of Ivan the Terrible, part of the renewed Russian state. The Horde-Tatar princely-boyar families became part of the common elite.

Part of the Rus-Scythians-Horde adopted Orthodoxy, the other settled in the Golden Horde, Central Asia and China, gave the local peoples princely and imperial dynasties, then dissolved in the masses of the Mongoloid population. This example is not the only one. Many thousands of Russians left for China and other Asian countries after the Troubles of 1917, and in the second generation they became Chinese and other Mongoloids.

What Western falsifying historians and their Russian followers call the Great Empire of Genghis Khan was in fact the Russian Horde Empire, the Empire of the Rus. The degradation of the empire and death were associated with Islamization and Arabization. This became the basis for the split, strife and collapse of the great Eurasian empire of the Rus.

But the empire did not die. She was reborn as a phoenix. The merging of European (Vladimir, Moscow, Tver, Novgorod, Ryazan) and Scythian-Siberian Rus made Rus' the Great, a huge empire from ocean to ocean. The Russians again went east and reached the Pacific Ocean, reviving the great northern civilization and tradition.

The myth of the "yoke"


The word "yoke" comes from the Latin "yoke", a collar for working cattle. The word is used in a figurative sense, as an oppressive, enslaving force. The ancient Romans forced enemy troops to pass "under the yoke-yoke", which surrendered. To do this, at the place where the army laid down weapon, stuck two spears and tied the third at the top, across. Under it, one by one, with their commanders at the head, without weapons and military distinctions, all the soldiers passed in front of the victors.

The term "yoke" was introduced by the famous historian and Freemason Nikolai Karamzin. Tsarist and then Soviet historians liked this term, and Russians were inspired that from 1238 to 1480 the people lived under the Tatar yoke.

In fact, these were vassal relations common for the then world. Novgorod the Great generally agreed with the Horde, there were no fights. Moscow, Vladimir, Ryazan, Tver and other princes submitted to the Tsar Khan. Russian squads became part of the unified army of the Golden Horde. And after the pogrom of Batu, the "nasty" came to the Russian principalities until 1380 only at the invitation of our own princes, who tried to get rid of competitors.

Interestingly, the "wild nomad shepherds" immediately created a developed civilization. Although it doesn't just happen. This takes centuries of development. On the Volga, Don and lower reaches of the Dnieper in the XIII-XIV centuries. dozens of cities built by "nomads" were erected. They were made of stone, with luxurious manor palaces and even water pipes. Compared to these cities, Paris and London were dirty villages, which in fact they were. Obviously, many of these settlements were simply rebuilt, they were the legacy of Great Scythia.

Trade routes and communications operated throughout the empire. There was a huge trade turnover between Rus' and the Horde along the Volga route. The caravans of Russian merchants apparently reached India and China. The story of Afanasy Nikitin is a piece of this mosaic.

Speaking of the "yoke", researchers interested in fakes ignore the fact that the Russian ushkuiniki (Novgorodians who followed the traditions of the Rus-Varangians-Vikings) were a thunderstorm for the entire empire on the Volga. River flotilla from the ushki - vessels of the "river-sea" class, sailed along the Frozen Sea (Arctic Ocean), the Baltic, the Volga and the Kama.

The Horde could not cope with them and constantly asked for help from the Grand Dukes of Moscow and Vladimir. The Moscow Grand Dukes had to fight with this freemen with varying degrees of success. Cossacks of the North. The Ushkuiniki usually successfully beat the Moscow governors. But Moscow could arrange an economic blockade of Novgorod and eventually conquered it.

"Tatar-Mongol yoke" - a myth, a fake. There were vassal relations. The Russian princes themselves brought the Horde to Rus', just as they used to lead the Polovtsy, who burned and robbed the cities and villages of competitors. Rus' and the Horde were part of a single empire. Then the Horde decomposed, fell apart, and Moscow Rus became the center of a new revived northern empire.
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  1. Eugene Zaboy Rank
    Eugene Zaboy
    +1
    17 January 2023 05: 02
    What could have caused Genghis Khan to move to the West and South and whether he was an ethnic Mongol. To answer these questions we need to look beyond the Far East. There are places where few people look, namely to America. What We Know.

    1. The Silk Road is the route from China to Egypt and Europe.

    Is this true?

    2. The Great Wall of China is a defensive structure.

    Is this true?



    If you look at the map of the Great Wall of China, it stretches from the east coast to the West, making a branch into Mongolia. There are also three branches from north to south, towards the coast. The wall is built on top of a dirt wall and is wide enough to transport goods. Another continuous wall, also directed from east to west, was discovered in northern Mongolia. Isn't it strange?

    3. Bering Strait (width 86 km. With a large island in the middle, we do not consider small ones).

    Bering is certainly a great pioneer, but the local population of the shores of the Bering Strait traveled long before him and continue to do so today to visit each other, fish, hunt, trade and marry without thinking about the difficulties and dangers of these journeys.

    3. In North and South America, major transport pedestrian roads, reinforced with protective structures, have been built, stretching from south to north across both continents. In North America this is less pronounced due to the lack of tropical forests.

    4. Lidar surveys of the Amazon showed the presence of vast agricultural lands and farm buildings interspersed with tropical forests. There are also roads leading to the mountains. A huge, rich infrastructure was discovered in which, according to the testimony of the conquistadors, the roofs of the temples were made of sheet gold.

    5. The conquistadors noted the hospitable attitude of the local Indians towards the arriving white people, who considered the whites to be gods.

    6. Columbus brought tobacco, coffee and cocoa to Europe, which the Egyptians used to mummify mummies? Where did they get it from? Did Columbus bring coffee and cocoa to India and China?

    7. It is known that the civilizations of the Incas and Aztecs collapsed due to prolonged drought and the local population, including the white gods, left cities and farmland.

    Isn't the Silk Road, the Great Walls of China and Mongol, and the roads stretching for thousands of kilometers in the Andes part of the transcontinental route along which tobacco, coffee and cocoa were supplied to Eurasia long before Columbus? If it is true. Why couldn’t the white population of South America, knowing about the existence of Eurasia, migrate to Eurasia and cause the Great Migration of Peoples and the Tatar-Mongol invasion, as a result. Nobody pays attention to the similarity of sculptures from South American cultures, India and China.
  2. The comment was deleted.
    1. The comment was deleted.
  3. Seal Rank
    Seal
    +2
    17 January 2023 11: 24
    Quote: Seal
    In addition, we should not forget that the 1st Guards Cavalry Corps had tanks, artillery and vehicles.

    About motor transport.

    What did the horses eat?
  4. Seal Rank
    Seal
    +1
    17 January 2023 12: 44
    Quote from Eugene Zaboy
    It will be very educational for the science called history
    Well, you somehow exaggerated this descriptive discipline too much. raising it to the rank of “science”.
    In fact, history cannot be classified as a science. After all, such concepts as “knowledge”; "the science"; "fact"; “reality” and so on are philosophical concepts. But the great German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer in the mid-19th century in his work “The World as Will and Representation” convincingly proved that just such a discipline as history does not meet at least two basic criteria that disciplines that claim the proud title of “science” must meet ".
    Many people respond by saying that this is just Schopenhauer’s personal opinion, that in his time History was not yet a science, but since then it has taken a big step forward and supposedly became a science.
    But in fact, the criteria established by Schopenhauer have not gone away. History did not answer them, and still does not answer them.
    And further. By the time the work “The World as Will and Representation” was not even written, and even by the time of A. Schopenhauer’s birth, the version of History that everyone now studies in schools was already more than 90% formed. The only things missing from it were the Hittites, the Sumerians and a few others. Moreover, the funny thing is that History and the historians of that time managed just fine without these Hittites, Sumerians and others who were introduced into historical use after the publication of the work: “The World as Will and Idea.”


    PS However, against the background of such “sciences” as ufology, astrology, Scientology, Dianetics, political science, economics and others (they want to make Journalism a science!!!) History still looks good.
    1. Eugene Zaboy Rank
      Eugene Zaboy
      +2
      17 January 2023 23: 45
      There is nothing to argue about. I completely agree. It’s funny when historians and, by the way, archaeologists, based on one source (artifact), build a subjective universe, ignoring the results of other studies, or obvious facts.
  5. Seal Rank
    Seal
    +1
    17 January 2023 17: 40
    Quote from Eugene Zaboy
    1. The Silk Road is a route from China to Egypt and Europe. Is this true?
    1. In the East (China, Korea, Japan, India, Burma, Indochina, islands), the population in the era attributed to the era of the Great Silk Road was an order of magnitude (10 times) or even more (maybe 20 times, and maybe 50 times) than in the West (Europe, Middle East, Egypt, Transcaucasia).
    2. Accordingly, the market for silk consumption in the East itself was quite huge. And it could well absorb the entire volume of silk production in China and ask for more.
    3. If suddenly there was an overproduction of silk products and they ceased to be in demand in China, Japan, Korea and the islands, then we should not forget that on the way to Europe there were also Tibet, India and Central Asia, where silk was also loved and appreciated.
    4. So what could make the supposed “silk caravans” move from China to Europe, incurring huge costs, including customs duties, bribes, security, and so on.
    5. It could only be forced by a situation in which silk suddenly completely ceased to be in demand in all of China, Korea, Japan, Indochina, on the islands, in Tibet, in India, in Central Asia, and only because no one bought it in China , Korea, Japan, Indochina, on the islands, in Tibet, in India, in Central Asia, it had to be taken for sale in Europe.
    And I believe that, taking into account transport and other costs, silk products produced one or two years ago were cheaper to burn in China and thereby restore demand for silk in the East, than to send it to Europe.
    Moreover, according to the official version of history, the production of silk fabrics in Persia began under the Sasanian Shah Shapur II (309-379), who attracted skilled weavers from Mesopotamia and Syria for this purpose.
    But if Shampur II attracted skilled weavers from Mesopotamia and Syria, it means that sericulture in Syria and Mesopotamia arose in an even earlier period? 100 years before the birth of Shampur II? In 200 years? For 300 years???
    1. Eugene Zaboy Rank
      Eugene Zaboy
      +2
      17 January 2023 23: 37
      Europe most likely bought silk from the Arabs, it was not for nothing that they started dancing with a tambourine around the Crusades. They were interested in the Promised Land solely as a stage of control of the Silk Road. They thought about direct deliveries much later, when they learned from the Arabs about the existence of China. Dark people.
  6. The comment was deleted.
  7. Seal Rank
    Seal
    +2
    18 January 2023 11: 13
    Quote: gsev
    If Khabarov fought on equal terms with the multimillion-dollar Manchu Empire
    Well, why did you take Khabarov out of the also multimillion-dollar Russian State? Only because Khabarov’s detachment was small in number? So the Manchurian Empire sent God knows what significant forces against Khabarov’s detachment. Yes, they were larger than Khabarov’s detachment, but not so much as to declare them “multi-million-strong forces of the Manchurian Empire.” By the way, maybe you know exactly , what (in what quantity) forces of the multi-million Manchu Empire opposed Khabarov’s detachment? Maybe you saw a Manchurian document that would show the staffing strength of the Manchurian detachment directed against Khabarov?
  8. Seal Rank
    Seal
    +2
    18 January 2023 11: 47
    Quote: ABC-schütze
    After all, the author and his supporters somehow do not show any "skepticism" about the European conquests of the Vikings (especially their "visits" to North America) ...
    Well, why not? This is just a topic for a separate study.
    In addition, even according to the official version of history, the Vikings (Normans) actually conquered almost nothing in continental Europe. According to the official version of History, for some time they conquered almost all of England (in a geographical sense).
    Moreover, according to the official version of history, during that same period, continental Europe was subjected to devastating raids by the Hungarians.
    Well, of course, we must not forget that to the information that “Your Majesty (Holiness, Lordship, Excellency, etc.). This year we were attacked by evil Normans and robbed us in the amount of one million or something “That is, the Normans took for themselves all the taxes that we collected and prepared to send to you in 5 years,” you need to be skeptical. After all, it is known that, according to reports from local Spanish authorities, the English pirate Drake took so much gold and silver from them that the total amount was even more than the displacement of his Golden Hind.
    About visits to North America. Undoubtedly, they were. But under what climatic conditions?
  9. Seal Rank
    Seal
    +4
    18 January 2023 11: 51
    Quote: Ulan.1812
    By denying the existence of the Horde and its conquests, alternativeists deny the feat of our people, who defeated it in numerous battles.

    Initially, the "Tatar yoke" was an invention of Catholic Poles, who sought to present Poland as such a last outpost of European civilization in Eastern Europe. Behind which there are already semi-savage barbarians who have just emerged from under the "Tatar yoke". Then, when, in the course of the Napoleonic troops, the Europeans saw real Tatars in Europe and Paris and were surprised that these Tatars - exactly the same Europeans as themselves - European historians quickly began to transform the "Tatar yoke" first into the Tatar-Mongol yoke, then into "Mongol-Tatar", and now often even we ourselves are limited to one "Mongolian". And the Khalkha nation was appointed to the post of the Mongols. ..
    Why was the term “Mongols”, or more precisely “Moguls” chosen? Most likely because at that time, at the end of the 18th and beginning of the 19th centuries, the richest Great Mughals, who then ruled in India and considered themselves (like the Chinese) the rulers of Asia, were on everyone’s lips in Europe. And the Europeans knew that the Great Mongols were aliens in India. So they decided that the ancestors of the then-current Great Mughals, before coming to India, could well have been bearers of the yoke here in Rus'. :))) And when the Europeans finally got to that part of the territory of China, which is now the sovereign country of Mongolia and began to ask the local Khalka about “their great ancestor Genghis Khan” - then, to the disappointment of the Europeans, it turned out that the local Khalka had no idea about what Genghis Khan. Then the “white people” began to enlighten the “foolish halkas”, beautifully telling what a great ancestor they had.
    The Hulk were of course surprised, but they accepted the version with the great ancestor. Well, who doesn’t want to have great ancestors? And now the Khalka actually consider themselves descendants of “those Mongols” and can tell everything about Genghis Khan. The main thing is for more tourists to come. The Hulk-Mongols from the Genghis Khan brand are making a very good deal :)))
    1. Seal Rank
      Seal
      +5
      18 January 2023 11: 53
      Quote: Ulan.1812
      By denying the existence of the Horde and its conquests, alternativeists deny the feat of our people, who defeated it in numerous battles.

      In the same way, when the Swedes needed to designate the rights to the “Kemsk volost”, the Swede Peter Petrey created the theory that the Varangians, who are Swedes, were once called upon to rule Rus'. Well, our liberals, (they were there at all times) even then looking to the West, took up these theories with admiration, that yes, here we are, gray-legged, we were under the yoke for 300 years, and before that we couldn’t figure it out among ourselves - we had to call the Varangians from overseas to rule us. Ugh..
      It is also important that this pro-Western, liberalistic, anti-people and anti-Russian version of the supposedly former Tatar-Mongol yoke was intended to justify the possibility of external foreign rule in Russia. Pro-Western liberals and even, alas, Soviet propagandists of the yoke inspired and (and liberals still instill) our people that there was nothing to worry about, that in the history of Rus' it was even worse - but they survived. It was not for nothing that the Soviet government welcomed the Kolchakite V. Yanchevetsky (Pseudonym - V. Yan), who in his fictional but pseudo-historical books described in truly highly artistic terms “the conquest of Rus' by the Mongols. And today’s liberals, foaming at the mouth, convince us that “bast-cloth authoritarian Russia” needs to live under the external control of the “democratic, enlightened West” and that “Only under this external control of the West can we grow wiser.”
      They inspire day and night that there is nothing to worry about in this (external control of the West), because we already had a period of external control, when the “Mongol-Tatars” allegedly conquered us. And even a "yoke" imposed. And we supposedly lived for 300 years under the “yoke” !! But then we wiser from the yoke, gathered our courage and strength, and threw off this “yoke”.
      So that you (the people), the main thing is not to worry, you people calmly accept the leadership of the enlightened civilized West. And there someday, under this sensitive guidance of the WEST, everything will return to normal. May be. Years in 200-300.
      No, gentlemen liberals!! Nothing will return to normal on its own unless we take action now. We cannot give our land to anyone. And it is even more impossible to come under the external control of the West. In fact, our ancestors did not bow to any Tatar-Mongols and did not go under their “yoke.” None of the birch bark letters ever contain the words: “Tatar”, “Mongol”, Mongol-Tatar”; “Tatar-Mongol”, Baskak”, “khan”, “Great Khan”, “Horde”, “yoke”, “Batu,” etc. But today’s liberals, relying on Karamzin, spit in the soul of our ancestors, who did not suspect that they were “under the yoke.”
      1. Seal Rank
        Seal
        +3
        18 January 2023 11: 55
        So.
        1) Rus' survived in many real wars.
        2) Our ancestors were not under any "yoke".
        3) The version that Rus' was under the Tatar yoke (which in the 18-19 centuries was transformed first into "Tatar-Mongolian", then into "Mongol-Tatar", and now many people use the term "Mongolian" yoke ") was thrown to us by Catholics, in retaliation for the fact that our ancestors did not recognize the power of the Pope over themselves.
        4) And so that we can better swallow this main story about the “300 year yoke”, they wrapped it in a beautiful colorful wrapper from a series of “feats”. In this series is the feat of a certain “Evpatiy Kolovrat”, and “Defense of Kozelsk”, and so on.
        5) Unfortunately, by chanting these feats, we thereby prolong and prolong the life of this false version that the "Mongols" once allegedly conquered us and we were allegedly under their "300-year yoke".
        In our history, a huge number of real feats have been accomplished. We have more than enough to praise
        And in relation to, for example, Evpatiy Kolovrat or Kozelsk, one must always make a reference to the fact that this feat is akin to the exploits of Hercules or Theseus. That is, from the realm of heroic legends. Especially for young people. Otherwise, they too may accept the rotten idea that was thrown at us, born once in the Office of one of the Popes, that our Motherland Russia could be captured by enemies for some time, but then we will definitely get together and free ourselves, as they allegedly did once We succeeded under the "Mongol-Tatars". No, this liberalist idea about the possible seizure of the Motherland and possible living under external control needs to be nipped in the bud. No enemy will be able to capture our Motherland.
  10. Seal Rank
    Seal
    +2
    18 January 2023 11: 59
    Quote: north 2
    here we are trying to belittle the three-hundred-year suffering of the Russians from this yoke and the struggle of the Russians against the Tatar-Mongol yoke. They say that there was no yoke...
    Likewise, when the Swedes had to designate the rights to the "Kemsk volost" - the Swede Peter Petrei created a theory that once the Vikings, who are Swedes, were called to rule in Russia. Well, our liberals, (they were at all times) already looking to the West, enthusiastically picked up these theories that yes, here we are, sivolapy, we were under the yoke for 300 years, And before that we could not figure it out among ourselves - the Vikings had to from overseas to call to rule us. Ugh..
    It is also important that this pro-Western, liberalistic, anti-people and anti-Russian version of the supposedly former Tatar-Mongol yoke was intended to justify the possibility of external foreign control in Russia. Pro-Western liberals and, alas, Soviet propagandists of the yoke also inspired (and liberals still instill today) in our people that there was nothing to worry about, that it was even worse in the history of Rus' - but they survived. It was not for nothing that the Soviet government welcomed the Kolchakite V. Yanchevetsky (Pseudonym - V. Yan), who in his fictional but pseudo-historical books described in truly highly artistic terms “the conquest of Rus' by the Mongols. And the current liberals, foaming at the mouth, convince us that “bast-cloth authoritarian Russia” needs to live under the external control of the “democratic, enlightened West” and that “Only under this external control of the West can we grow wiser.”
    They inspire day and night that there is nothing to worry about in this (external control of the West), because we already had a period of external control, when the “Mongol-Tatars” allegedly conquered us. And even a "yoke" imposed. And we supposedly lived for 300 years under the “yoke” !! But then we wiser from the yoke, gathered our courage and strength, and threw off this “yoke”.
    So that you (the people), the main thing is not to worry, you people calmly accept the leadership of the enlightened civilized West. And there someday, under this sensitive guidance of the WEST, everything will return to normal. May be. Years in 200-300.
    No, gentlemen liberals!! Nothing will return to normal on its own unless we take action now. We cannot give our land to anyone. And it is even more impossible to come under the external control of the West. In fact, our ancestors did not bow to any Tatar-Mongols and did not go under their “yoke.” None of the birch bark letters ever contain the words: “Tatar”, “Mongol”, Mongol-Tatar”; “Tatar-Mongol”, Baskak”, “khan”, “Great Khan”, “Horde”, “yoke”, “Batu,” etc. But today’s liberals, relying on Karamzin, spit in the soul of our ancestors, who did not suspect that they were “under the yoke.”
    So.
    1) Rus' survived in many real wars.
    2) Our ancestors were not under any "yoke".
    3) The version that Rus' was under the Tatar yoke (which in the 18-19 centuries was transformed first into "Tatar-Mongolian", then into "Mongol-Tatar", and now many people use the term "Mongolian" yoke ") was thrown to us by Catholics, in retaliation for the fact that our ancestors did not recognize the power of the Pope over themselves.
    4) And so that we can better swallow this main story about the “300 year yoke”, they wrapped it in a beautiful colorful wrapper from a series of “feats”. In this series is the feat of a certain “Evpatiy Kolovrat”, and “Defense of Kozelsk”, etc.
    5) Unfortunately, by chanting these feats, we thereby prolong and prolong the life of this false version that the "Mongols" once allegedly conquered us and we were allegedly under their "300-year yoke".
    In our history, a huge number of real feats have been accomplished. We have more than enough to praise
    And in relation to, for example, Evpatiy Kolovrat or Kozelsk, you should always make a reference that this feat is akin to the exploits of Hercules or Theseus. That is, from the realm of heroic legends. Especially for young people. Otherwise, they can perceive the rotten idea thrown to us, once born in the Office of one of the popes, that our Motherland Russia can be captured by enemies for a while, but they say we will definitely get together and free ourselves, as if already once we succeeded under the "Mongol-Tatars". No, this liberalistic idea of ​​the possible seizure of the Motherland must be stifled at the root. No enemy can take over our homeland.
  11. Seal Rank
    Seal
    +3
    18 January 2023 12: 03
    Quote from Evil Eye
    If history was created from scratch, then there was no need, for example, to rely on the Bible - it could also be written from scratch, and all the rough edges would be immediately removed
    The most likely thing here is that the Vatican became concerned about creating a cross-cutting history quite late. When the Bible, which includes the Old Testament, has already become a “sacred cow” for all Christians. Moreover, the Bible was equally revered by all Christian denominations, including those opposing the Vatican.
    1. Evil eye Rank
      Evil eye
      +1
      24 January 2023 17: 40
      This is closer to the point. In fact, the Bible is the true history of mankind... Well, as in, “authentic”. Adjusted for subjectivism, mysticism, religious views of the authors, and overload with allegories. But the main outline of events is conveyed there.
  12. Seal Rank
    Seal
    +2
    18 January 2023 12: 06
    Quote: Ulan.1812
    Lomonosov did not deny the Horde invasion.
    Have you found genuine Lomonosov manuscripts on history?
  13. Seal Rank
    Seal
    +4
    18 January 2023 12: 16
    Quote: Keer
    A Mongolian horse can gallop with a rider in the saddle for 10 km across the steppe. This is a very hardy horse.

    Exactly. Free gallop. But here’s the question: what is the rider’s task when racing a horse galloping in a “free gallop” gait? Let me remind you that the traditional Mongolian horse breed is one of the few breeds (if not the only one) that, in principle, is not capable of ambling.
    Quote: Keer
    Going 60 - 100 km/day is not a problem at all.
    Exactly. The main method of movement of the Mongolian horse is the step. She walks at a pace (6-8 km/h), nibbling grass along the way, and a Mongolian rider sleeps in the saddle. But after walking 60-100 km. even a Mongolian horse will fall asleep. For a long time.
    Quote: Keer
    The Mongols walked through the subject Samarkand, Bukhara and Derbent, and only on good grass straight through the steppe.
    Yeah, and they also walked across the steppes through Limlaith to the very borders of Lothlorien, and in the west on their horses on good grass they reached the lands of the Dunlandings. And going northwest they reached Isengard.
  14. Seal Rank
    Seal
    +3
    18 January 2023 12: 35
    Quote: Keer
    along the frozen Oka, and then along the Klyazma, they could pass
    In fact, Mongols are traditionally afraid of water. Even when frozen. The Mongols, like a number of other neighboring peoples, have a very unique attitude towards water. After all, everyone has heard that the Mongols did not like to wash? Why ? Because, according to their beliefs, a very strong and very evil spirit (Water Dragon) lives in water, which is better not to disturb. The Mongols believed that polluting the water would anger this spirit (the dragons who control its cycle). They were afraid that if they muddied the water, the gods would send a storm to destroy their houses. Therefore, the Mongols did not wash or wash anything for a long time.
    Swimming or washing your clothes in running water was prohibited. Until recently, most of the Mongols did not even bother to dress up. At most, they could take off their coats to shake the lice out of them and put them back on. They wore the same thing day after day until it literally rotted right on top of them.
    They also did not wash dishes in water. Instead, they washed the plates with the leftover broth. And then they would pour the used broth back into the vat and cook again.
    Actually, Mongols still have a very specific smell. They say that to understand what the Mongols smell like, you just need to walk past a homeless person.
    Some attentive tourists to this day note that if a Mongol needs to cross a frozen river (it goes without saying that the Mongol rides on a horse), the Mongol will get off the horse, find sand or earth, fill the ice with a sand or earthen path from coast to coast, and along it, carefully cross the river on horseback. Or even transfer the horse by dismounting. And the Mongol will cross the frozen river almost strictly in the perpendicular direction.
    For example, from Moscow to Nizhny Novgorod by land is 400 kilometers. Does the author know how many kilometers from Moscow to Nizhny Novgorod by water?
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  16. Seal Rank
    Seal
    +2
    18 January 2023 13: 30
    Quote from Eugene Zaboy
    Europe most likely bought silk from the Arabs, it was not for nothing that they started dancing with a tambourine around the Crusades.
    It's more interesting here. Crusades are more of a struggle for control over drug trafficking. Due to the increase in the number of churches in Europe.
    1. Eugene Zaboy Rank
      Eugene Zaboy
      +2
      19 January 2023 01: 05
      This is actually an interesting question. Who actually controlled and exploited the Great Silk Road can be traced by haplogroups. Syria, Iraq, Iran - haplogroup J prevails in different proportions and R1a in proportions of 15% and higher. Haplogroup J was not allowed into Pakistan and further; there, haplogroup R50a is represented more than 1%, at least in Pakistan, Tajikistan and Afghanistan. The Indian ruling caste is also represented by R1a. The conclusion suggests itself that haplogroups J (Yezidis and later Kurds, Arabs and Jews) and R1a, at one time, broke the crusaders and Richard the Lionheart so that they would not climb into the trough. In response, the Anglo-Saxons and Western Europeans developed navies and created a system of maritime insurance. It turns out that the ancient Greeks and Persia, the Roman Empire, and Byzantium fought for control of the Silk Road, and all other reasons are secondary. By the way, the empires of South America also, apparently, grew on trade arteries. The Inca Empire is especially indicative. Therefore, one can look for a piece of the transcontinental trade route between Mongolia and the narrowest part of the Bering Strait and further to South America. No matter how fantastic it may sound, tobacco came to Egypt from there, and walnuts got there, to Brazil, not through the Atlantic Ocean, and the Great Walls of China were not built to transport silk from the Pacific coast in a westerly direction.
  17. Illanatol Rank
    Illanatol
    +3
    18 January 2023 13: 45
    Quote: Ulan.1812
    Identification of present-day Mongolia and the Khalkha Mongols with the empire of Genghis and other bullshit.
    The Arabs could, the Macedonian could... reached as far as India, the Huns could, Tamerlane could, the Ottomans could, and only the Horde could not.


    The Arabs are not nomads, but a developed, completely sedentary people who had their own cities and crafts back in ancient times.
    Makedonsky had good starting conditions. Thanks to Father Philip, who managed to subjugate rich and large Greece. Greece at that time had a population of 5 million, which is very large (as a percentage of all humanity, more than the United States now has). In terms of development, Greece was an advanced and rich country.
    Nevertheless, Macedonian’s successes were much more modest: he was able to subjugate only the Persian Empire, which was in deep decline. Scythia and India were too tough for this great conqueror.
    Huns... this is a collective name, an alliance of many times. They were eventually defeated and the union simply fell apart. No empire was created.
    Tamerlane. Yes, but he also relied on a rich and developed region, had an excellent resource base, numerous subjects and advanced technologies (Damascus steel, for example).

    The Ottomans... ethnic Turks are in the minority, the majority are yesterday's Byzantines who converted to Islam. Sublime Porte = Byzantium 2.0.

    And only the previously peaceful nomadic Oirats create the greatest empire, having starting capital in the form of a Mr. and sticks.
    1. Evil eye Rank
      Evil eye
      +1
      24 January 2023 19: 18
      Nomads are not just Arabs, but Bedouin Arabs. Evaluating the entire Arab civilization by the Bedouins is the same as calling all representatives of the Anglo-Saxon civilization “cowboys”
  18. Illanatol Rank
    Illanatol
    +2
    18 January 2023 14: 02
    Quote: gsev
    In 70 years from the founding of Mangazeya, Russia reached Ussuri and Okhotsk. At about the same time, the Mongols reached from Khorezm to Europe. Just as on Kalka the Mongol army crushed the Russian armies, in the same way the Buryat Mongols crushed the Russian archers in the 17th century in the Buryat steppe if they managed to attack them in rainy weather, when small arms of that time could not operate. If Khabarov fought on an equal footing with the multimillion-dollar Manchu Empire, then why couldn’t Batu, with a larger army than Khabarov had, defeat the Russian state, which was smaller in comparison with China?


    Strictly speaking, the Cossacks have arrived. The question arises: who is more like the “Mongol-Tatars”? Our Cossacks, who had a colossal reserve of passion, or peaceful shepherds who stupidly never had the desire or motivation to go anywhere?
    Despite the fact that real Mongols live in territories that are the least comfortable for stay, excluding the Arctic and Yakutia.
    Having such a choice of conquered lands, why didn’t they move to more fertile places?
    Why would a real nomad conquer anyone at all, go thousands of miles away to lands that bear little resemblance to the steppe he is accustomed to?
    Slaves? Why does a nomad need slaves? Nomads already have a surplus of labor. One shepherd can manage a herd of thousands, capable of feeding several families.
    Tribute? Hmm, considering how much money these Mongols had, Mongolia should have become the richest country... “where is the money, Zin?”
    These nomads were and still are poor. So, the tribute went to other lands, to European countries. They just got rich in the 13-14th centuries and fought costly wars.

    The horde existed. But she had nothing to do with the Mongols. Typical arrow translation. "Yoke" is a Western project, a completely logical continuation of Catholic expansion after the capture of Constantinople. With the support of local “cadres” who were dissatisfied with the then state of affairs of the “filthy pagans”. However, as in later times, the West lost control over the Horde (as in our time over ISIS) and the relations between Rus' and the Horde moved away from the classic “yoke”, a peculiar (albeit unequal) symbiosis of Rus' and the Horde arose, which will merge over time, having formed Russia.
  19. Seal Rank
    Seal
    +3
    18 January 2023 16: 27
    Quote: Keer
    Jami at-tawarikh; The Secret History of the Mongols; Sheng-wu qin-zheng lu; Rubruk, Polo,

    Excuse me, maybe you want to say that mankind knows the handwriting of Rashid ad-Din or Rubruk with Polo?
    The secret history of the Mongols???
    Already wrote.
    However, I can repeat it.


    Or here’s more about “Meng-da bei-lu.
    “Men-da bei-lu” has come down to us as part of “Sho-fu” - an extensive collection of works by various authors compiled by Tao Zong-i in 1370, and “Gu-jin sho-hai” - the same compilation of 1544 ., in which “Men-da bei-lu” was reprinted with “Sho-fu”.
    Moreover, it goes without saying that only certain parts of the compilation of 1544 reached the time of historical materialism.
    God knows who the author is too. Both in Chinese literature and in other languages ​​for a long time, starting from the 1195th century. the authorship of “Meng-da bei-lu” was attributed to a certain Meng Hong. It is believed that under the Southern Song, a major official and military leader, Meng Hong (1244-XNUMX), held various important positions, whose biography was subsequently included in the Song Shi (History of the Song Dynasty)... But, judging by his biography, he had nothing to do with the embassies sent by the Southern Song to the Mongols.In the text “Meng-da bei-lu” the author calls himself Hun.
    According to Wang Kuo-wei's assumption, this was precisely the reason why Meng Hong was mistakenly (or maybe not mistakenly?) considered the author of Meng-da bei-lu. In other words, the compiler of the “Sho-fu” compilation, which included “Meng-da bei-lu”, Tao Tsung-i, made Meng Hong the author of “Meng-da bei-lu”.
    He apparently suggested that the famous official Meng Hong, who allegedly lived at the time indicated in the text of the work, could have been sent to the Mongols as an ambassador and, therefore, could be the author of “Meng-da bei-lu”.
    But according to the report of the Southern Sung writer Zhou Mi in the work “Qi-dong e-yu” (“Informal conversations in Qidong”), not Meng Hong, but Zhao Hong was sent on a mission to the Mongol commander-in-chief of the troops in Northern China Muhali, the commander of the Southern Sung troops in Huaidong Jia She and returned to South China on the 7th moon of the 14th year of the Jia Ding period (July 21 - August 18, 1221).
    In other words, the name of Zhao Hong (Hong) and the date of his journey to Northern China (1221) coincide with the name of the author of “Meng-da bei-lu” and the year of his journey to the Mongols. On this basis, Wang Kuo-wei suggests that the author of “Meng-da bei-lu” is not Meng Hong, but most likely Zhao Hong.
    This point of view was supported by P. Pelliot.

    One "authority" suggested that the author is this and that. Another authority supported the first. And everything seems to be "established the truth". And in fact, just two authorities have found a consensus. Between themselves.
    And are they right or wrong - the tenth matter.
    That is, the so-called "Chinese sources" are no better than any others.
    Originals have not reached us.
    What came of the 16th century.
    We have to agree on authorship.
  20. The comment was deleted.
  21. Peter Yakovlev Rank
    Peter Yakovlev
    +3
    18 January 2023 17: 11
    I always thought that history is NOT science, and the collection is a compilation of literary works, some of which regularly change depending on the author of the opus... There are NO clear signs of real SCIENCE in this pseudo-science - repeatability of facts, regardless of the source.. Someone-​something-​ dug up, someone wrote something... And from hearsay... It's funny... (Tithe is Tribute? Yes, it's 10% - less than income tax now...)
  22. The comment was deleted.
  23. Illanatol Rank
    Illanatol
    +2
    19 January 2023 08: 36
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    And heaps of European, Chinese and other sources on which this opinion was formed. Oh yes, I completely forgot - it's all fake


    Where did you get the idea that all these sources talk about the same people, “Mongols”? Moreover, they are called differently in these sources.
    By the way, can you provide sources in Mongolian?
    And yes... the Mongols themselves, bad luck, didn’t call themselves Mongols. Like the Chinese, they don’t call themselves Chinese.
    The word "Mongol" comes from the Latin "magnus" - "great". I doubt that the Oirat shepherds knew Latin well. By the way, “magnate” comes from “magnus”. This was the name given to noble Polish nobles. The real "Mongols" should be looked for to the west of Rus', and not in Central Asia.
  24. Illanatol Rank
    Illanatol
    +2
    19 January 2023 08: 51
    Quote: Keer
    Place your own on thrones in China, India, and throughout Central Asia. Build cities out of the blue, if it was necessary, wash in hamams, pay salaries to astronomers, and build them “research institutes”, and force Nevsky’s dad to gallop to Karakorum for a lanyard.


    Maybe first they should have settled their native Mongolia? To make the “golden Onon and blue Kerulen” look more civilized. Otherwise, in Mongolia itself there is still only one city, the capital, and even then it was founded and developed not by Genghis Khan, but with the participation of generous neighbors.
    And the situation with “research institutes” in Mongolia is not very good; young people have to be sent to their neighbors for training.

    And where is this Karakorum? Is there much left of him?
    However, more remains of Troy, a small and older city devastated by the Hellenes, than of the “Mongolian Karakorum” (no more real than the Scottish “Nessie”).
  25. Illanatol Rank
    Illanatol
    +2
    19 January 2023 09: 28
    Quote from Evil Eye
    So the “Tatars” were most likely “Roman” colonizers, i.e. Crusaders. Batu is really Batu, only not Cossack, but Rimsky. The Golden Horde is the Golden Order.


    Close to the truth. Quite logical. The crusaders capture Constantinople, the next logical step is the capture of countries that were spiritually (religiously) dependent on Constantinople. That is, we are talking about Rus' and Georgia, first of all.
    But the crusaders had already learned from bitter experience in Palestine. Relying only on brute military force is not very effective and costly. It is more productive to use the “fifth column” if there are candidates for this role.
    In Rus', a candidate has been found. A quasi-state formation in the southern Russian steppes, the brainchild of contradictions that arose as a result of social development (internecine strife, religious strife, contradictions between different social groups, property stratification). Those dissatisfied with what was happening fled to the steppes, eventually forming their own counter-society, based on the principles of “military democracy.”
    That. that this is possible is proven by the presence of analogues in later times (Don Cossacks, Zaporozhye Sich).
    This “education” is a prototype of the Horde. There were enough passionate and sub-passionate people in it who were good with weapons. Fortunately, there were enough former warriors who were finally tired of slaughtering their fellow tribesmen in civil strife at the whims and caprices of the local prince. So the “Horde” eventually turned into a formidable military force. And there were those who decided to tame this power and use it for their own (secret) purposes. Western propagandists-crusaders-monks appeared in the Horde, who began to campaign for “integration with the civilized West” in order to end the mess in Rus', setting the local people on the right path. Maidan, in short. It worked. And trouble came to Rus' from an unexpected source. Since the “Mongol-Tatar hordes” were dominated by locals, this army easily found the necessary communications to the necessary cities, knew the terrain perfectly and was adapted to local conditions and tactics. In addition, this army relied on the massive support of the local peasant population, to whom the princes and their feuds were bitter than the bitterest radish. So the defenders of Russian cities, with amazement and indignation, saw in the front ranks of the aggressors the faces of yesterday’s “men-servants”, “filthy pagans”. Official historians tried to explain this fact by saying that the Horde used locals as “human shields,” although such a technique was more suitable for defense rather than attack. No, the peasants supported the Horde quite voluntarily.
    The latter fact, by the way, explains why the Russian princes themselves reached out to the Horde with an offer to pay them tribute, if only they would no longer be disturbed. Well, it’s clear... if the sympathies of your subjects are on the side of the “evil Tatars”, there is no point in fluttering around. Without support, you have no chance.
    Later, the “Russian Horde” will be fully convinced that the goals of the “Western curators” are not so noble and useful for the Russian people. A lot of blood was actually shed. The Horde will get rid of its curators, some of the crusaders of the Golden Order will be slaughtered. It is for this purpose that the Horde will help the Byzantines liberate Constantinople from the crusaders (breaking the Rome-Constantinople-Kafa chain, which provided logistics and management of the Horde by the “curators”).
    The West later uses the option with Mamai and the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth to regain control over Russia. Russians are like an eyesore. Nearby, but not fully conquered... a shame, yes!
    Well, in order to erase from the memory of the Russians the “costs of the process” of trying to establish control over Russia in the 13th century, the official myth about the “Mongol-Tatars” will be fabricated, the arrows will be turned on the Mongolian shepherds, fortunately they did not want to object and could not...
  26. The comment was deleted.
    1. Evil eye Rank
      Evil eye
      +2
      24 January 2023 19: 24
      Moreover: why did the monks rewrite texts in classical Latin, which had fallen into disuse? If some monk can read it, then it is completely logical to translate the text into vulgar Latin when rewriting it, so that others can understand it.
  27. Seal Rank
    Seal
    +2
    19 January 2023 10: 25
    Quote: Ulan.1812
    You will also ask me for the height of each horse at the withers.
    And it’s clear why you won’t give anything wink

  28. Seal Rank
    Seal
    +2
    19 January 2023 10: 28
    Quote: Keer
    Provide household documents of Yaroslav the Wise, then, I
    Once again I will tell you what and how with the Mongolian documents.
    There are no economic or any other documents of Yaroslav the Wise, as well as of everyone who came before him and all those who were about 300 years after him.
    There are no Mongolian documents.
    That is, there is nothing documented.
    But you and others (for example, caliber, lancer...) claim that you all “know exactly how it was,” right?
    1. Keer Rank
      Keer
      0
      23 January 2023 08: 57
      Of course not. There are indeed Mongolian documents.
  29. Seal Rank
    Seal
    +3
    19 January 2023 10: 36
    Quote: Ulan.1812
    If you believe the alternatives that the Horde could not carry out such campaigns, then you have to admit that the Roman conquests are fake. As well as the conquests of Alexander the Great... where did he get food for his horses?

    No matter how you dig into the Tolkinist-Mongolkinists, Niagara of nonsense constantly pours out of them: "unique Mongolian horses", which rode 300-600 kilometers at "one refueling", rustled with bare hooves on the ice of rivers, and got food for themselves from under snowdrifts, etc. .P. Indeed, Mongolian horses can get their food from under the snow in winter. They can. But again - thermodynamics and features of digestion. During the day of feeding (tebenevka), the Mongolian horse travels at most several hundred meters in winter. Why? It's not just the snow, though that's also the reason. Dry hay is a very low-calorie food, an animal needs a lot of it to make up for energy losses in the winter (even if it "does not work"), and the process of digesting plant food (grass) in the stomach takes long hours (up to 12-13 hours) .

    A horse is not a wolf, in which everything is digested in 2-3 hours. Therefore, the horse, as a herbivore, cannot devour on the move and gallop further. Can not. You can speed up the process by giving high-energy feed - oats, barley, etc. (it enters from the stomach into the intestines after 4-5 hours), but here it is already necessary to approach with caution, because no one has canceled the laws of digestion. They gave a little more, they gave the wrong grain - that's it, the little animal died.

    Finally. The horse cannot starve! A modern temporal Wahhabi will still agree that a car with an empty gas tank will not go anywhere, but about a horse he will argue to the user. Whereas a hungry horse abruptly ceases to "work" in the desired mode. Starving for more than a day, a maximum of two, the horse stupidly lies down. And that's it. A horse - Mongolian, Angolan, Ethiopian - no matter which one, produces up to 20-30 liters of gastric juice every day (not counting another 15-20 liters of saliva). The horse cannot but eat, because, as a herbivore, it is designed for the constant arrival of food masses. A horse consumes 10-20 kilograms of hay, several kilograms of oats, etc. per day. (bran and so on). The Mongols did not feed horses with oats, which means that a little more low-calorie hay should have gone. These are the basics of biology, these are the basics of the peculiarities of the digestion of these animals, and this is all the same thermodynamics.

    Therefore, ANY cavalry army on our planet is critically dependent on horse feed and its availability. Critically. There are none or they are not enough - PPC kitten. It's like fuel for mechanized columns. No fuel - the column rises. Horses are getting worse - they die instantly with starvation. Alas, biology. A horse is not even a tractor or a truck. No fuel - no horse. Dumb.


    In January 1771, the Mongols living on the left bank of the Volga, numbering from 50 to 100 thousand people (the numbers are most likely inaccurate, in reality there were less significant) rushed across the winter Kazakh steppe to Dzungaria. In a few months of a campaign on the sad surface of reality, being subjected to raids by the Kazakhs (the Oirats beat the Kazakhs like dogs for 150 years, and they naturally recouped them), the Mongols - children of the steppes and owners of amazing horses - lost two-thirds of their livestock and up to a third of "personnel ". In 1645, the army of the Crimean Khan Kazy-Girey invaded the winter campaign (!) along the Muravsky Way. Due to the weather (frost) and lack of food, the Tatars lost up to half of their horses and up to a third of their warriors. The geography of the raid - the territory of modern Kursk, Belgorod, Voronezh regions. Therefore, the Tatars tried not to go hiking in winter. This is understandable why.
  30. Seal Rank
    Seal
    +2
    19 January 2023 11: 45
    Quote: Ulan.1812
    Tell the Poles that there was no Battle of Liegnitz
    Yeah, it was. And with whom ?
    Who could get into the ranks of the Poles and apparently in Polish. without a Mongolian accent, shout: “Jesteśmy otoczeni. Uciec. Ratuj się kto może.”.
    Here is one of those against whom Henry the Pious fought.

    Drawing of the "Tatar".

    In your opinion, does the comrade trampled underfoot by Henry the Pious look much like a Mongol?
    1. Keer Rank
      Keer
      -1
      21 January 2023 00: 32
      In your opinion, does the comrade trampled underfoot by Henry the Pious look much like a Mongol?
      and this one on an elephant?
      there were no elephants, it turns out
  31. Seal Rank
    Seal
    +2
    19 January 2023 11: 50
    Quote: Keer
    However, there are records in Mongolian, Mongolian writing and transcribed in Chinese characters

    If we look at the generally known data on the Yuan Dynasty at the Wikipedia level, it will seem at first glance that there seem to be three options for determining the ethnic (national) affiliation of this dynasty and state:
    1. Yuan (Chinese: 元朝, pinyin Yuáncháo) - Chinese imperial dynasty
    2. The Yuan Empire (Ikh Yuan Ul.PNG Mongol. Ikh Yuan Uls, Great Yuan State, Dai Ön Yeke Mongghul Ulus.PNG Dai Ön Yeke Mongghul Ulus; Chinese translation: 元朝, pinyin Yuáncháo) - a Mongolian state, the main part of which is the territory was China (1271-1368)
    3. Manjurskaya - Dzhurdzhenskaya
    here it is necessary to give explanations for such a conclusion and definition directly from well-known history
    Kublai Khan began his reign... In 1264, he moved his headquarters closer to the former capital of the Jin Empire. In 1266, he ordered the construction of a new capital on the site currently occupied by the city of Beijing. During the Jin period, the city was called Zhongdu, and in 1272 it became known as Dadu in Chinese, Daidu for the Mongols, and Khanbalik for the Turks.
    but ...
    The State of Jin (Chinese: 金朝, pinyin Jīn Cháo, lit. Golden) is a Jurchen state that existed in northern China in the XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries.
    But above it was said that the state was called Jin, and Yuan - Golden - dynasty, but below they will correct it and call it Yuan - Golden, but the same thing is there:
    Khanbalyk (Middle Mong. ᠻᠠᠨᠪᠠᠯᠢᠺ) is the name of the capital of the Yuan Empire, modern Beijing. The Chinese name of the city is Dadu (Chinese: 大都, pinyin Dàdū; great capital), pronounced by the Mongols as Daidu[1][2]. The Mongolian name of the city “Khanbalyk” is translated as “City of the Khan”[3]; Marco Polo transcribed it as Flounder.
    and we find all this literally on one page, in one Wikipedia article
    Of course, historians had to divide Jin and Yuan in order to insert Mongols instead of Jurjen - Manjurs and correct them into Mongols and squeeze in Mongols under the name Yuan, but chronologically it turns out that Jin, as a Manjurian power, did not stop its history
    Jin can also mean the following Chinese principalities, empires, or their corresponding eras:
    Jin (Chinese trad. 晉, ex. 晋, pinyin Jìn; 1042 BC - 349 BC) - a specific principality of the Spring and Autumn period.
    Jin (265-420) (Chinese tr. 晉朝, str. 晋朝, pinyin Jìn cháo) is one of the states of the Six Dynasties period, its era is divided into the Western Jin and Eastern Jin periods.
    The Jin state existed at the beginning of the XNUMXth century on the territory of Shanxi province, the forerunner of the Later Tang state.
    Later Jin (936-947) (Chinese tr. 後晉, str. 后晋, pinyin Hòu Jìn) - one of the states of the Five Dynasties.
    Jin (1115–1234) (Chinese: 金朝, pinyin Jīn cháo) was a Jurchen kingdom in northern China.
    Later Jin (Chinese tr. 後金, str. 后金, pinyin Hòu Jīn) is a Manchu state founded in 1616 and subsequently conquering China, after which the name of the state was changed to Qing.
  32. Seal Rank
    Seal
    +2
    19 January 2023 11: 54
    Can you justify this pearl?

    The positivist paradigm in source studies is most consistently developed in the work of Sh.-V. Langlois and C. Segnobos "Introduction to the Study of History" (1898), which is based on a course of lectures they delivered at the Sorbonne in the 1896/97 academic year. Sh.-V. Langlois (1863-1929) - medievalist historian, professor at the Sorbonne, holder of a diploma from the National School of Charters, director of the National Archives (1912-1929), member (since 1917), then president (since 1925) of the Academy of inscriptions and belles-lettres . C. Segnobos (1854–1942) – professor at the Sorbonne (1890), began his research activity with the study of ancient and medieval history, later specialized in modern history, author of the work “Political History of Modern Europe” (1897).
    "Introduction to the Study of History" begins with a formula that over time has become an aphorism:
    History is written from documents. Documents are traces left by the thoughts and actions of once living people <…>. Every thought and every action that does not leave a direct or indirect trace, or the visible trace of which has disappeared, is forever lost to history, as if it had never existed <…>.
    Nothing can replace documents: there are none, there is no history
  33. Seal Rank
    Seal
    +3
    19 January 2023 12: 28
    Quote: 30 vis
    These alternativeists are already sick of it
    Exactly. The alternatives are fed up. But which ones? For me, those alternativeists who edited our chronicles are so fed up.
    The oldest Russian chronicle was called “The Tale of Bygone Years.” It is believed that it was created in the 12th century. This is a consistent chronological description of events on the territory of Rus', the place of creation is the city of Kyiv. It was remade an unknown number of times, but as is believed in the historical community, no fundamental changes were made to it. In any case, this is the version that is officially announced.
    Contains descriptions up to 1137. The original chronicle has been lost. The oldest copy of The Tale of Bygone Years, which has survived to this day, was rewritten by the monk Lawrence and dates back to the XNUMXth century.
    Question. To what extent is the copy “rewritten” by the monk Lawrence identical to the original? 100%? 99%? ; by 75%; by 50%; by 25%; by 15%; on 10 %; by 1%; by 0,1%; Doesn't match at all?
    Historians, you see, “agreed” to consider that “mostly consistent.” But to what extent can we agree with such an agreement among ourselves?
    But in the PVL there is nothing about either the Tatars or the Mongols. It ends in paragraphs
    In the summer of 6625. Volodymer brought Mstislav from Novgorod, and gave him his father Belgorod, and in Novgorod Mstislavich, his son, grandson of Volodymer, sat. That same summer, Volodymer went against Yaroslav to Volodymer, and Davyd Olgovich, and Volodar, and Vasilko, and set foot near the city of Volodymer, and stood there for sixty days, and made peace with Yaroslav. Yaroslav submitted and hit Volodymer with his brow in front of the formation, and Volodymer punished him for everything, ordering him to come to him “when I call you.” And so the world ran wild every time.
    Then the Polovtsians came to the Bulgarians, and the Bulgarian prince sent them a drink with poison, and Aepa and the other princes drank, and they all died. That same summer, Lazor, the bishop of Pereyaslavl, passed away on the 6th of September. That same summer, the Belovezhians came to Rus'. That same summer, Volodymer sang for Andrey to his grandson Tugartkanov. That same summer the earth shook, on the twenty-sixth day of September. That same summer, Volodymer led Gleb out of Mensk. And lay the church on Lita to the martyr. Volodymer sent his son Roman to Volodymer to reign. That same summer, Kurt Oleksiy died, and his son Ivan took the kingdom.
  34. The comment was deleted.
    1. Seal Rank
      Seal
      +2
      19 January 2023 17: 55
      Internet problems. Either my comments multiply on their own, then they disappear. The most important fragment about the Laurentian Chronicle has disappeared. I repeat it as an insert.
  35. Illanatol Rank
    Illanatol
    +2
    19 January 2023 14: 10
    Quote: Ulan.1812
    The main striking force of the Horde army was the heavily armed, armored cavalry.


    And where did this “armored cavalry” go among the real Mongols in later times? For example in the 16-17 centuries?
    Mongol warriors in the 17th century did not look much like knights or samurai.

    By the way, how do you imagine thousands of kilometers of marches, and at an accelerated pace, of heavy cavalry? Were there similar feats earlier or in later times? For example, among European knights?
    And is the Mongolian horse (more like a pony) even capable of such achievements? These are not bityugs of the “Norman” breed.

    Yes, the Horde still had heavy cavalry. Only the Horde were not Oirat Mongols, that’s bad luck. Russians, Polovtsians, Bulgars, Caucasians... local daring informals.
    And after the Horde ceased to exist, they became what are called “Cossacks”.
    1. Keer Rank
      Keer
      0
      23 January 2023 01: 58
      By the way, how do you imagine thousands of kilometers of marches, and at an accelerated pace, of heavy cavalry? Were there similar feats earlier or in later times? For example, among European knights?
      Well, if we assume that Richard rode from London to Acre on horseback, and in armor, straight across the English Channel, and the Mediterranean Sea, then one can “easily prove” that there was no Third Crusade, and Leonhart himself is an invention from jokes, about the Pope.
  36. Seal Rank
    Seal
    +2
    19 January 2023 17: 00
    Quote from cold wind
    Captured peoples were mainly used; they were obliged to supply troops to the imperial army, then to the Horde. There were a tiny number of Mongols and Chinese, mostly detachments, senior officers, officials and engineers.
    Dubious version. And what forces captured the “captured peoples”? Also scanty, mainly detachments, senior officers, officials and engineers? Well, let’s say they were captured, so what? Here, some owner of the occupied lands pledged to field his own “army” in addition to the meager number of mostly barrage detachments, senior officers, officials and engineers. Who will he send? Of course, not your squad. And those whom this squad catches in bazaars, landfills, and so on. They will look menacing and convincing. But in reality? What's the use of them?
    1. Keer Rank
      Keer
      0
      23 January 2023 02: 11
      Well, let’s say they were captured, so what?
      there is no need to allow anything. From the area of ​​advance of the Mongols, along the traditional Silk Road, we put aside, from nodes like Samarkand, Bukhara, Khojent, vector to the north, there lived nomads who were similar in the way of conducting traditional farming, military affairs and even in the equipment of the horseman to the Mongols, and who , had an alternative, to submit to the khan, and to give him scumbags into his army, which they themselves are not against, to go for luck, or to fight him, with an incomprehensible motivation, and with a high probability of being completely killed, and mixed with dust. And, since this subordination occurred from the south, then, immediately, there is no need to find out whether or not the Mongols could ride 10 thousand kilometers in battles across the great steppe.
      1. Evil eye Rank
        Evil eye
        +2
        24 January 2023 19: 58
        My friend, you have lost a young talented author (tm) in the fantasy genre. True, neither Tolkien, nor Sapkowski, nor Martin, nor even Lovecraft would have written such nonsense, but I don’t blame you, I see that you lack the talent to fantasize and you conscientiously broadcast what others have fantasized bully

        But in fact, the mention of the Silk Road reveals that you are a storyteller with a head. I once again urge you to refresh your knowledge of economic geography, to understand how trade routes differ from army supply lines, but since you will still persist, I’ll immediately spoil it: trade routes are profitable because they rely on the patronage of local authorities
        If merchants had to fight to take every city on their way, then by the end of the journey they would have to sell themselves into slavery.

        I'm not even talking about the fact that a caravan of many thousands with silk is absurd, which means that relatively small caravans along the Silk Road could have leaked through, but an army of 30 could not.
        And the recruitment scheme that you describe is a one-to-one caricature of Stalin, who puts two guns in the back of the NKVD men, and they both also have two guns in the back of four other NKVD men, etc. all the way to the front.
        This means that the Mongols come to the nomads (found in the steppe thanks to aerial reconnaissance), who are similar in the way they conduct a traditional economy, in military affairs, and even in the equipment of the horseman to the Mongols. Those. The Mongols have absolutely no advantages in armament over these horsemen. And they go: either fight us with some unclear motivation (really, what can one nomad squeeze out of another nomad? A horse and a weapon? Why don’t the nomads need them), or give us thugs into the army (all shepherds are the most frostbitten in the world scumbags). With a simple and understandable motivation: to rob sedentary suckers, to take from them, for example... For example... Well, to take something in general, it is not clear what, because nothing special was found in the Mongolian “capitals”.
        And indeed, the choice is obvious: either leave your families and fight for distant lands for the Khan-father, or try to defend yourself right away. Any scumbag will choose option #1. They are such scumbags, tender and sensitive, if you press on them, they immediately bend.
        And what can bend the northern scumbags? Only the numerical advantage of the greyhounds of the Mongols. Those. they somehow infiltrated to the north (let’s say, at the limit of the capacity of trade routes), and then with a united army, increased twofold or more, they will go back through already depleted pastures and along trade routes that can barely accommodate them anyway.
        Of course, you have to be an official to read such fiction. But I still advise you to read Tolkien, he will be more realistic with his orcs laughing
  37. Seal Rank
    Seal
    +2
    19 January 2023 17: 50
    Quote: Peter Yakovlev
    I always believed that history is NOT a science,

    They thought absolutely rightly.
    There are modern criteria (postulates) of scientific character.
    The set of criteria for scientific character determines a very specific model of science, which is denoted by the term classical science. The system of highlighted criteria of scientific character can be represented as follows.
    Firstly, scientificity is identified with objectivity. Objectivity is understood as focus on an object, as objectivity. For science, everything is an object comprehended through experience.

    The second feature of science is the experimental nature of knowledge. Observation, experiment, measurement are the main methods of obtaining and confirming knowledge. In this regard, a scientific experiment is subject to the requirement of reproducibility and repeatability. The experiment can be repeated at any time and in any place and its result will not change. A scientific result does not depend on who received it.

    The third postulate of the classical model of science, concerning the general validity, reliability and universality of scientific knowledge, is called the principle of intersubjectivity. According to the latter, a scientific statement will be the more reliable, the less it contains subjective contributions. Classical science sought to eliminate (from the Latin eliminare - to expel), to exclude the subject from the context of intrascientific constructions. Science must provide absolutely reliable knowledge, finally substantiated. This requirement is associated with the fundamentalism of scientific knowledge, it is also designated as a criterion of universalism.

    History does not fall under any of the postulates of science.
    History does not comprehend anything through experience. Since, for example, in 4-5 neighboring states the same social reasons lead somewhere to the emergence of a revolutionary situation, and in some they do not. Where they lead, somewhere the revolutionary situation reaches its peak in the form of a revolution, and somewhere it does not reach it and fades away. Somewhere the revolutionary situation led to communism (Bolshevism), and somewhere to fascism and Nazism.
    But, for example, Ohm's Law or Hooke's Law are universal. Even in the Arctic, even at the equator, even in Antarctica. They work the same everywhere.
    True science allows us to predict even the appearance of new elements, having previously provided for them a place in the Periodic Table.
    The science of Celestial Mechanics first made it possible to calculate that in such and such a place in our solar system there should be a certain planet, and only after quite a long time the planet Neptune was discovered in the calculated place.
    And History??? However, against the background of such “sciences” as Scientology, Dianetics, ufology, numerology, palmistry, political science and so on, which have both academies and academicians, it still looks pretty good
    hi
  38. Chack wessel Rank
    Chack wessel
    0
    19 January 2023 21: 34
    God! Why are you sending me such suffering!?
  39. All the details Rank
    All the details
    0
    19 January 2023 23: 16
    This article is anti-scientific. Harmful. Denying the obvious fact of Alexander Nevsky’s travels and much more. It’s a pity that such a channel allows such heresy to be published. Yes, the Tatars have been searching for and writing their history for a long time. But they were NEVER Bulgars. Genghis Khan is generally denied. And the ruin of China and the ruin of the Central Asian states. It is known from written sources that in 1233 the Golden Horde established their governorship in Sudak, liberated from the Seljuks. This year became the generally recognized starting point of the ethnic history of the Crimean Tatars. And in the second half of the XNUMXth century, the Tatars became the masters of the Genoese trading post Solkhata-Solkata and in a short time subjugated almost the entire peninsula. What, also some kind of BULGARS? So I feel sorry for Samsonov.
    1. Keer Rank
      Keer
      0
      21 January 2023 00: 12
      The article is not harmful, but funny, but fun
      and laughter prolongs life.
  40. Seal Rank
    Seal
    +2
    20 January 2023 10: 18
    Quote: Keer
    does it follow that there was no victory for Nevsky on Lake Peipsi?
    Let's talk about it.
    There is one interesting document.
    In 1906, on the eve of the celebration of the 300th anniversary of the House of Romanov, the Approved Charter of 1613 on the election of Mikhail Fedorovich Romanov to the Moscow State was reissued.
    How is it remarkable? And the fact that it was the most important state act, which was not lost (like all kinds of annals), was constantly under protection, was inaccessible for revisions. Still - who dares to edit something in the most important state document !!!
    And what made editing even more difficult was the fact that there were two copies of the Approved Certificate. And on both signatures are all members of the Council. Both copies were stored together, then disconnected, then together again. At the time of publication in 1906, one copy was stored in the Archive of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, the other in the Armory.
    In the Approved Charter of 1613 there is a section telling about the origin and formation of the Russian State.
    It says: “After Vsevolod, his son, the great prince Yaroslav Vsevolodich, held the scepter of the Russian state, and God preserved it from Batu in Veliky Novgrad and with the children, and after the captivity of the godless Batu, spread the holy and immaculate peasant faith and renewed the holy churches.
    According to him, the Great Russian State will be taken by the scepter, his son, the brave prince the great Alexander Yaroslavich, who, like Germans, show the glorious victory on the Neva, and on the godly faith of the godless Berkai tsar, the beastly wrath in the horde of tame and glorified God’s miracle after death. ”
    So, our ancestors wrote down in 1613 that Alexander Yaroslavich on the Neva won a glorious victory over the Germans (Germans) and not over the Swedes (Swedes). Which our ancestors in 1613 very clearly distinguished. But our ancestors did not mention the “more significant”, as is now considered, victory of Alexander Yaroslavich over the Germans on Lake Peipus or near it. Didn't know about her???


    About "nomads". You see, the term “nomad” in its literal sense is probably applicable only to wild tribes that roamed in super-ancient times without any cyclicity. Well, or now to the gypsies. And that's not always the case. But Mongols and Tatars, including Crimean ones, are not fundamentally different from each other. And calling them “nomads” is not entirely correct. Well, or you need to make a footnote to the fact that they are “nomads”, but do not go beyond the boundaries of their plot of land, within which they move, in principle, in a circle. At sufficient intervals, returning to those pastures on which they had already grazed their cattle 5-8 years ago.
    What am I talking about? The Crimean Tatars, being not so far from “home”, moving along routes familiar to them for 200 years, even lost up to a third of their personnel.
    1. Seal Rank
      Seal
      +2
      20 January 2023 17: 21
      And a little more about the information contained in the Approved Certificate.
      Somehow she very calmly describes: “Batu’s captivity.” Yaroslav Vsevolodovich and his children spent time in Novgorod, and “after the capture of the godless Batu, he began to spread the holy and immaculate Christian faith and began to renew the churches.”
      Don’t you think that the phrase that Yaroslav Vsevolodovich began to spread the holy and immaculate Christian faith and renew churches not after the end of Batu’s captivity, but after Batu’s captivity, sounds somehow strange? Like the godless Batu came, captivated the Russian Land, and during this captivity, Yaroslav Vsevolodovich developed his creative activity with all his might, who began to spread the holy and immaculate Christian faith and renew the churches.
      And one more moment. In the Approved Charter, next to the names of Batu and Berkai, the terms “Mongol” and even “Tatar” are not found. Only Batu (the godless Batu) and the lion-furious king Berkai. The question is - who and when tied first the “Tatars” to them, and then the “Mongols”? Our ancestors did not write anything about the Tatars, much less about the “Mongols.”
      And the Approved Certificate, let me remind you, is state document.
    2. Keer Rank
      Keer
      -1
      22 January 2023 22: 55
      I’m not talking about whether Nevsky was or wasn’t, and the Battle of the Ice. And the fact that one unsuccessful trip in the 17th century, or at least a hundred, Emelya went to the garden for wood, for elderberry, cannot be a serious scientific argument for assessing what happened to the woodworking business in the 13th century in Kiev at the guy’s house. And lead to the conclusion that that guy died of hypothermia in his hut. All the false theories of the Hyperboreans and others like them are based on such stretches and distortions that one is amazed. As they say, one does not notice the beam in one’s own eye. I might still be able to understand an absolute nihilist who would declare that there is no history at all, but not these dreamers laughing
      1. Evil eye Rank
        Evil eye
        +1
        1 February 2023 05: 40
        Fucking logic. It turns out that Emelya’s unsuccessful trips to buy firewood are proof that the guy in Kyiv could carry centuries-old oak trees from the forest, uprooted with his bare hands, on his shoulders.
  41. Seal Rank
    Seal
    +2
    20 January 2023 10: 57
    Quote: Ulan.1812
    And the name was born precisely because of the conquests of the Horde.

    In the Lithuanian, Pskov and Novgorod chronicles there is an indication of Batu’s invasion, but it is somewhat scanty:
    I.Lithuanian:
    PSRL. Volume 32. Chronicles of Lithuania and Zhmoitsk, and Bykhovets from the legendary times (beginning of our era) until the 60s of the XNUMXth century.
    “And during the reign of Montvil, Tsar Batu rose up and went to the Russian land, and fought all over the Russian land, and killed many Russian princes, and took others into captivity, and burned the capital of the entire Russian land, the city of Kiev, and made it empty. And the prince the great Kiev Dmitry, frightened by his great strength and power, fled from Kyiv to the city of Chernigov, and then learned that the city of Kiev was burned and the whole Russian land was devastated"

    This is, so to speak, the “scale” of the “invasion” - if the great prince of Kiev Dmitry, frightened by the “invasion,” fled from Kyiv to the city of Chernigov, and calmly sat out the entire “invasion” there.
    And only later did I learn that the city of Kiev was burned and the entire Russian land was devastated." And how far is Chernigov from Kyiv?
    II.
    Novgorod and Pskov chronicles In general, this “invasion” event is commented on very briefly:
    A) PSRL. Volume 4. Novgorod and Pskov chronicles. 1848. In the summer of 6746. Tsar Batu came with his army and with the power of the Tatars to the Russian land, and captured the cities; and went to Ignach of the cross, and she turned back.
    B) Or they don’t comment at all. Let's watch PSRL. Volume 5. Pskov and Sofia Chronicles. 1851 – there is nothing about the “invasion”.
    So neither in Lithuania, nor in Novgorod and Pskov did they realize the terrible geopolitical catastrophe and did not show much sympathy for the Russian people. As for Western Europe, they know about the Tatars, and they have no doubt that these are the Russians. And a suspicion arises whether our authorities during the time of Ivan the Terrible, when we began our movement to the East, should have especially highlighted this event. Give it a special tragedy. To cause persistent hatred among our people towards the East.
    Is this why such a pitiful story was written and reproduced in all the chronicles to which Tsar Ivan Vasilyevich had access? After all, how easy it was to prepare the necessary text, compose an accompanying document, and even send it to the monasteries where the chronicles were kept, with strict instructions - under the year 6745 (1237 AD) to add this text, or even rewrite the chronicles again, since it is possible. And if it’s impossible, then burn it.
  42. Seal Rank
    Seal
    +2
    20 January 2023 12: 11
    Quote: Illanatol
    But the crusaders had already learned from bitter experience in Palestine. Relying only on brute military force is not very effective and costly. It is more productive to use the “fifth column” if there are candidates for this role.
    Quite the contrary. The Crusaders captured Constantinople in 1204. They say that it was the Venetians who set them on.
    But let's see what happened a little “before that”.
    And before that, namely in 1201, a group of German crusader knights, led by the Bishop of Livonia and then the first Bishop of Riga, Albert von Buxhoeveden, landed on the shore of the Gulf of Riga, by whose forces the city of Riga was founded. And in 1202 in Riga, the priest Dietrich, who was the right hand of Bishop Albert, founded the spiritual-knightly order "Brotherhood of the Warriors of Christ", which received from the Pope a coat of arms in the form of a standing sword and a cross above it, which is why it became known like the Order of the Swordsmen.
    That is, the onslaught on the Orthodox segment of Christianity began before the capture of the main center of Orthodoxy.

    After the capture of Constantinople by the crusaders, the Greeks created the Nicene (and not only) Empire. The Nicene Empire turned out to be the strongest. And rich. But when confronted by the Latins in open battle, the Nicenes, as a rule, lost. And they believed that our Russian principalities would also not be able to withstand the crusaders. Moreover, our princes began to establish quite friendly relations with the brothers of the “soldiers of Christ”.
    Therefore, Emperor Lascaris decided to play it safe. Fortunately, the son of the first autocrat of Rus', Andrei Bogolyubsky, was nearby. Or maybe nearby, or even at the court of Lascaris.
    In short, Laskaris gives Yuri money, he recruits daredevils, regains Georgia, where he had many supporters, goes against the Polovtsians (since he himself was more than half Polovtsian), creates his own state, which occupied the territory of approximately the Khazar Kaganate. For some time he strengthens his state. Then he makes an attempt to subjugate Kyiv. However, the attempt was unsuccessful. Despite the victory at Kalka, Yuri lost so many personnel that he decided to go home and prepare better.
    The second attempt is the so-called “Batu invasion”. The main character is the son (or even grandson) of Yuri (known to us as Batu). And Yuri is, apparently, an elderly adviser to Batu Subedei. Batu and Yuri take turns approaching the cities, announce who they are and offer to accept the real ruler, Yuri Andreevich, the son of Andrei Bogolyubsky. Some cities agree. The part ruled by the descendants of Vsevolod, the brother and most likely the person who ordered the murder of Andrei, refuses. But having restored his power in a significant part of Rus', Yuri and his son (or grandson) return “to the south”, since for a long time they had become unaccustomed to the cool climate. And their army also consists of representatives of the southern peoples.
    Then one of the descendants, Yuri, converted to Islam. After which, representatives of many now famous Russian families began to return to Rus' (Kutuzovs, Karamzins, Arakcheevs, Ermolovs, and so on).
    Not my version. Version by Albert Maximov. He has a series of books, including the book “The Rus' That Was.”
  43. Seal Rank
    Seal
    +2
    20 January 2023 12: 14
    Quote: All the details
    Denying the obvious fact of Alexander Nevsky’s travels and much more.
    Maybe you just misunderstand the meaning of the term "fact"? Do you have any documentary evidence of A. Nevsky’s trip? Is the route known? What about the composition of the delegation? Well, A. Nevsky was not the only one who “went for three to nine lands.” Which of his close boyars or nobles went with him. How did you go - in carriages, on carts, on sleighs or on horseback?
    1. Eugene Zaboy Rank
      Eugene Zaboy
      +1
      21 January 2023 00: 18
      - Unfortunately, geneticists do not have a direct answer to this question, since paleogenetic studies of bone remains from burials dating back to the Golden Horde period were practically not carried out. To date, the results of only two individuals from the Karasuyr burial ground, located in Ulytau, are known. They are dated to the end of the 2th – beginning of the 1th centuries. According to archaeological research, these individuals were the Mongol wars of the Ulus of Jochi. Genetic studies of our colleagues have discovered that the Y chromosome (determines genetic relationship through the male line) of one individual belongs to the star cluster of haplogroup CXNUMX. Subvariants of this old cluster today can often be found among representatives of the Kazakh clans of the Senior Zhuz, as well as among the Mongols and the peoples of Southern Siberia. Mitochondrial DNA (determines genetic relationship through the female line) of this individual belongs to haplogroup D, which is quite common among the indigenous population of Central Asia. In the second individual, the Y chromosome belongs to haplogroup RXNUMXa, or more precisely, to its subvariant, found today among the population of Eastern Europe. For example, according to the Y-chromosome relationship tree, a modern resident of the Poltava region of Ukraine can be considered a descendant of a close relative of the second individual from the Karasuyr burial ground. The second individual's mitochondrial DNA belongs to haplogroup I, which is common today among the indigenous populations of Europe and the Middle East. It is worth noting that the genetic results fully confirm the anthropological characteristics of the buried, which were previously established. 

      All rights reserved. Use the active link to strategy2050.kz: https://strategy2050.kz/ru/news/o-chem-govoryat-geneticheskie-issledovaniya-naslediya-zolotoy-ordy/

      How and where are paleogenetic studies carried out? 

      - Paleogenetic studies of human bone remains from burials must be carried out in a special laboratory for working with ancient DNA, which is equipped with clean rooms and special conditions to avoid contamination of modern human DNA. The creation and support of such a laboratory requires fairly large funding. Today, work has been organized in Kazakhstan to develop such laboratories. This is an ancient DNA laboratory (Nazarbayev University JSC together with the National Center of Biotechnology RSE of the Science Committee of the Ministry of Education and Science of the Republic of Kazakhstan) and a population genetics laboratory (Institute of Genetics and Physiology RSE of the Science Committee of the Ministry of Education and Science of the Republic of Kazakhstan).

      All rights reserved. Use the active link to strategy2050.kz: https://strategy2050.kz/ru/news/o-chem-govoryat-geneticheskie-issledovaniya-naslediya-zolotoy-ordy/

      Maybe this information is the answer to the questions about which so many copies have been broken here. Of course, the results are not enough for final conclusions, but this is better than nothing, leading to a company with dubious sources. The Kazakhs have done a good job in this direction. They are no less interested than the Mongols and Russians in finding answers to these questions. Moreover, most North American Indians are genetically related to the Kazakhs. What is of interest? Haplogroup I is common in Yugoslavia and the Scandinavian Peninsula. We've been wandering the same paths for a long time. Ukrainians call Russia a horde, and the horde, according to the results of research, settled in Poltava. There you can also look for answers on the logistics of the Tatar-Mongol army.
  44. The comment was deleted.
  45. Keer Rank
    Keer
    -1
    20 January 2023 19: 32

    The Roman Father-Byty washes away Russian chronicles from the parchment of the XNUMXth century to replace them with lies, in the background the British are burning the Hyperboreans, on the left the “Mongols” are shooting a captured Samsonite. Secret Assembly of the Vatican, hologram, XNUMXth century.
  46. Illanatol Rank
    Illanatol
    +1
    22 January 2023 10: 28
    Quote: Seal

    That is, the onslaught on the Orthodox segment of Christianity began before the capture of the main center of Orthodoxy.


    What prevented you from using multiple approaches? Yes, against underdeveloped pagans you can use brute force. And against fairly strong principalities with their squads? It is not a fact that direct brute pressure will bear fruit. The Battle of the Ice clearly demonstrated this, albeit in hindsight.
    Isn't it better to act and conquer with someone else's hands? This is much more attractive and less expensive.
    Motivation, resources, political experience of intrigue and prerequisites for such an action (the local “tops” are no longer quite capable, and the “bottoms” no longer want to tolerate chaos due to civil strife) are available.
    There are also dissatisfied militant “locals”; they can be seduced by persuasion and promises.
    And then use it... including outside Rus', in European showdowns (the struggle between the Pope and the Emperor of Germany). Later it was presented as “the Western campaigns of the Horde.”

    And of course, the seizure of Constantinople by the crusaders dealt a colossal spiritual blow to the “Orthodox”, significantly facilitating and simplifying the further mission. Constantinople itself could not resist the crusaders! Why should we... better submit to such a force that God himself condones (otherwise he would not allow such a thing). The spiritual breakdown was serious, which also affected the fighting spirit of the squads.

    As for the theory that the Horde is exclusively our product and the Horde khans are our princes... this version causes skepticism for me. Nevertheless, our princes, even the greatest, did not have enough internal resources to try on the role of “Batu the Conqueror”, and politically this is a game of a higher class. No, it couldn’t have happened without third-party, very cunning guys, at least at first.

    So I remain a supporter of the Western source “Iga”, proposed by the historian-People’s Will Morozov. Although the “yoke” itself will not last long. Like, for example, the control of Western intelligence services over left-wing revolutionary parties (primarily the Bolsheviks) at the beginning of the 20th century.
    Let us pay tribute to the West and the continuity of its policy towards Russia and Russians. So again he formed a new Horde for us from “non-brothers”. True, our current prince Vladimir Krasno Solnyshko managed to deliver a pre-emptive strike...
  47. The comment was deleted.
    1. Evil eye Rank
      Evil eye
      +2
      24 January 2023 17: 27
      I) Points 1-5: these are all myths. Perhaps there were such events, but they are interpreted by historians tendentiously.
      II) “signs of Mongoloidity” can be obtained from Central Asians; there is no point in dragging the Mongols to us.
      III) There may have been a movement of masses of people. But historians do not talk about the resettlement of eastern peoples, but about conquest by a centralized army, the creation of a centralized empire.
  48. futurohunter Rank
    futurohunter
    0
    22 January 2023 11: 26
    I remembered about the Russian Mongoloid - General Kornilov. And there are many such examples
  49. Illanatol Rank
    Illanatol
    +3
    23 January 2023 09: 24
    Quote: futurohunter
    The author will just say about the events that took place in different parts of vast Eurasia for at least 200-300 years:
    1. Batu’s campaign against Europe, and defeat in Europe
    2.Yellow Crusade in the Middle East
    3.Conquest of China, replacement of the Ming dynasty with the Qing dynasty, which ruled right up to the twentieth century
    4.Conquest of India and emergence of the Mughal dynasty
    5. Capture of Burma
    5. Lots of unsuccessful trips to different countries, for example, Vietnam, Japan and Indonesia


    1. Horde members were used in internal disputes in Europe. It was the German lands that suffered the most (the Pope was then at odds with the German emperor).

    3. The seizure of China took place. Temujin is a real historical person. But China (and the Tangut kingdom) was enough for him; there was simply no need to go to the West.
    Other people's achievements were attributed to him, and intentionally. A very big lie can be created by stitching several truths together.
    Temujin is quite rightly considered the “great Chinese,” even if he was not ethnically Chinese. He had a positive impact on Chinese history by unifying the country. If it were not for Temujin, it is quite possible that there would still be two mainland Chinas; the Manchus could well have retained control over the northern part of this country.

    China at a later time tried to take up navigation. Chinese super-junks sailed across the Pacific and Indian Oceans quite successfully. But accounting calculations showed that these events were planned to be unprofitable and the Chinese “Columbus” were out of business. It was the European poor who needed precious metals, spices, and labor. China had all this in abundance.
    In real conquests, economics and logistics are not in last place.
    The “Mongolian” Yuan dynasty in China lasted until 1368. The Qin are not the Mongols, but the Manchus.

    4. The Great Mughals were started by Babur, a descendant of Tamerlane. It is debatable that he was a Mongol.

    5,6. Quite realistic, given the reliance on Chinese resources. But the countries listed are neighbors of China, there is nothing incredible here in the form of transcontinental crossings. It is characteristic that even if there were successes, they were fragile and short-lived, including due to problems with logistics
  50. Illanatol Rank
    Illanatol
    +2
    23 January 2023 09: 38
    Quote: Seal
    After the capture of Constantinople by the crusaders, the Greeks created the Nicene (and not only) Empire. The Nicene Empire turned out to be the strongest. And rich. But when confronted by the Latins in open battle, the Nicenes, as a rule, lost. And they believed that our Russian principalities would also not be able to withstand the crusaders. Moreover, our princes began to establish quite friendly relations with the brothers of the “soldiers of Christ”.
    Therefore, Emperor Lascaris decided to play it safe. Fortunately, the son of the first autocrat of Rus', Andrei Bogolyubsky, was nearby. Or maybe nearby, or even at the court of Lascaris.


    I was familiar with this version, the Byzantine trace in Iga, before.
    But I find it very controversial.
    Why?
    If the Byzantines were somehow involved in the notorious "yoke", wouldn't their Catholic opponents try to use this to denigrate their Byzantine opponents?
    Why point the finger at distant Mongolian shepherds if you can blame the Byzantines, especially if the latter were really involved, albeit indirectly? This would be very useful for Catholics. “Look, Russians, what your spiritual mentors, the Byzantines, did to you. They created a yoke for you. You Russians chose the wrong side. Come to us, to the civilized ones.”

    Again, the episode with Mamai is missing. In his army there is a Genoese detachment, after the defeat he flees to Cafa, where the Genoese are. But Genoa and Byzantium are competitors at knifepoint.
    Then no. Behind the Horde were the Catholics.
    But the Byzantines could take part in the liberation of the Horde from Catholic influence. Because they understood that Rome could in the future use the Horde to defeat their Nicene Empire. They helped the Russian Horde, and they repaid good for good, helping to recapture Constantinople. A completely logical picture.
  51. Illanatol Rank
    Illanatol
    +4
    23 January 2023 09: 58
    Quote: Keer
    Well, if we assume that Richard rode from London to Acre on horseback, and in armor, straight across the English Channel, and the Mediterranean Sea, then one can “easily prove” that there was no Third Crusade, and Leonhart himself is an invention from jokes, about the Pope.


    Richard had an alternative - to sail by sea, which, presumably, he did.
    Fortunately, he was a descendant of Normans, good sailors.
    On what sea, on what boats did the Mongols sail - there is a great mystery!

    Do you yourself understand that you have fallen into “alternativeism” (together with modern official historians)?
    How did the founding fathers of Russian historiography describe the Mongol warriors? Karamzin, for example? Where did he mention “Mongols in dusty armor”? He described them completely differently... about heavy armor - not a word. And about the number of their troops - he gave such figures that more modern historians had to engage in “alternativeism”, cutting down this sturgeon considerably.

    And quite recently.
    I remember back in Brezhnev times, as a schoolboy in History class, I listened to fables about the Battle of Kulikovo. I couldn’t stand it and raised my hand: “Tell me, teacher, how did it happen that Dmitry Donskoy had more soldiers on the Kulikovo field than Kutuzov on the Borodino field?”

    They didn’t give me a bad mark, although the teacher had a fair amount of trouble, it was noticeable.

    Well, how can you trust official historians after all this nonsense, after emergency “adjustments”, after changing shoes in the air (the ideological coverage of historical events in the light of the next “general party line” is especially annoying)? Why are they better than the same Fomenko and Nosovsky?

    They will give them more generous grants - and they will immediately find Tartary, with Hyperborea and Atlantis in addition.
    "Any whim for your money, Gentlemen!"
    1. Keer Rank
      Keer
      -1
      23 January 2023 17: 32
      Richard had an alternative - to sail by sea, which, presumably, he did.
      Fortunately, he was a descendant of Normans, good sailors.
      You see. I sailed by sea when it was more convenient, and I traveled by land when it was more convenient. And the Mongols in laminar armor also had alternatives not to “jump in armor across the sea,” that is, not to break straight through the great steppe from Karelen to Ryazan.
    2. Keer Rank
      Keer
      -1
      23 January 2023 18: 10
      And regarding the number of troops, these numbers in Soviet and school textbooks came from early studies of the 19th century, when they did not bother much with assessing the realism of the size of armies and navies. And they took “Herodotus’ hundred thousand” directly from the sources. The armor of the Mongols is approximately similar to the armor of the Moscow horseman of the 14th, 15th and 16th centuries, and their cold weapons are almost identical, because they were borrowed from the Tatars. No one spoke about men-at-arms, ala heavy cavalry at Poitiers. And the Mongols did not have heavy armor, for the same reason that Moscow did not have them; they did not fit into the accepted tactics. And not because they could not, say, be delivered to the battlefield, because, de, the need for a thousand kilometer marches through deserts and snow-covered steppes.
      1. Evil eye Rank
        Evil eye
        +2
        24 January 2023 17: 30
        If Herodotus' hundred thousand is an artistic exaggeration, then why is everything else not an artistic exaggeration? laughing
        We see it here - we don’t see it here - here we wrap the herring as usual
  52. The comment was deleted.
    1. Keer Rank
      Keer
      -1
      23 January 2023 17: 37
      Hold
      , now you have the document “Pop Ivan” or “Father of the Romans” or any great hyper Tataria, to choose from. From any period, You can even copy, a list of any century. Any letter, and in any language.
      1. Evil eye Rank
        Evil eye
        +2
        24 January 2023 17: 31
        Whoa whoa. And this note controlled the space from China to Kyiv? And what is written there, if it’s not a secret?

        By the way, how was it dated?
  53. Seal Rank
    Seal
    +1
    23 January 2023 11: 54
    Quote: Illanatol
    But Genoa and Byzantium are competitors at knifepoint.
    The official version says the opposite. Venice at knifepoint with Byzantium. But with Genoa, Constantinople has the opposite: peace; friendship, chewing gum. There was only one misunderstanding in 1348-1349. caused by the issue of collecting duties for passage through the Bosphorus, and even that ended quite quickly. The Genoese even provided assistance to Constantinople in 1453. Even before the siege of Constantinople began, two galleys arrived in Constantinople, on which a detachment of 700 Genoese arrived under the command of the condottiere Giovanni Giustiniani, nicknamed Long (“Long”).
    However, I agree that one can only guess about what was or wasn’t there. And then the whole dispute will consist in a dispute about what is better to guess on: beans or coffee grounds.
    It’s better to honestly admit that we don’t know what happened then. And it’s not a fact that it will be known. Unless, of course, they invent a Time Machine or learn to capture the sounds of the past from Space.
    1. Keer Rank
      Keer
      -1
      23 January 2023 16: 47
      You can guess from the tea leaves by finding out what kind of relationship there was between Hyper-Rus and the Great Tartary; neither one nor the other left any traces of themselves. And with Genoa and Byzantium everything is quite transparent. The Genoese colonies on the Black Sea existed exactly until the Turks captured Constantinople and that is the same straits.
  54. Keer Rank
    Keer
    -1
    24 January 2023 00: 54
    But Genoa and Byzantium are competitors at knifepoint.
    Then no. Behind the Horde were the Catholics.
    Do you see how speculation breaks down against harsh reality? You can come to your conclusion through complex brain exercises, arguments about differences in faith, competition in the market, etc. And you look at the Genoese cities, castles in the Crimea, and it’s immediately clear what Genoa and Constantinople really were like relationship. It’s the same with the Mongolian horses, the backwardness of the nomads, the lack of documents, and other blizzards.
  55. Illanatol Rank
    Illanatol
    +3
    24 January 2023 09: 53
    Quote: Keer
    You see. I sailed by sea when it was more convenient, and I traveled by land when it was more convenient. And the Mongols in laminar armor also had alternatives not to “jump in armor across the sea,” that is, not to break straight through the great steppe from Karelen to Ryazan.


    What are the alternatives? By sea, through the Suez Canal? laughing
    Or straight through the taiga, absorbing (a la snowball) local peoples along the way?
    The official version is also based on the fact that the Mongols were some kind of super-duper warriors, armed with prodigies. And the horses are incredible and the bows... and if they diluted their army with locals, what would be left of this “super-duper”? Or were the locals also “super-duper”? Whereas the Mongols were able to easily crush them if the enemy was worthy and there was no superiority of the Mongols over the local tribes. No matter how you look at it, the puzzle doesn’t fit.

    A separate question: how to bring numerous tribes, different in language and customs, to a common denominator? Severe discipline, “if a dozen are guilty, we execute a hundred”? This only works well in pulp books. Cane discipline is a so-so motivator. And all these diverse masses need to be taught the Mongolian language, accustomed to military culture and organization.
    Despite the fact that the Mongols did not have their own written language at that time. Much later, the Mongols would receive writing from the hands of the supposedly previously conquered Uruses.

    We, Russians, have been accustomed to European orders since the time of Peter the Great, but we have only partially succeeded. But what happened is left. And the Mongols have, in a matter of years, an incredible rise from savagery to incredible organization, and then a return to the original level of savagery.
    Just like the different tribes through which this “snowball” rolled.
    When Khan Kuchum arrived with a small army (according to Horde standards - a couple of tumens, i.e. 7-8 thousand), he easily overpowered the Siberian tribes, and they were unable to offer much resistance. Where have gone the combat skills that the “Mongols” taught them in turbo mode - HZ.

    What can I say finally? To go on long campaigns, to conquer unprecedented goodies, and then die out suddenly, leaving all the goodies conquered - a brilliant plan!
    "Reliable as a Swiss Army Knife!" (Puchkov-Goblin).
    1. Keer Rank
      Keer
      -1
      24 January 2023 16: 10
      What are the alternatives? By sea, through the Suez Canal? laughing
      Or straight through the taiga, absorbing (a la snowball) local peoples along the way?
      here comrade Seal, as it turned out, is a historical nihilist, and you, it turns out, are a geographical nihilist, maybe you are a map fighter? Do you consider geodesy and cartography a false science?
  56. Illanatol Rank
    Illanatol
    +1
    24 January 2023 09: 59
    Quote: Keer
    Do you see how speculation breaks down against harsh reality? You can come to your conclusion through complex brain exercises, arguments about differences in faith, competition in the market, etc. And you look at the Genoese cities, castles in the Crimea, and it’s immediately clear what Genoa and Constantinople really were like relationship.


    Bad ones, of course. The basis of business: even your partner in the company is your competitor. So, if the Byzantines and Genoese worked together somewhere, this does not mean that they would have missed the chance to trip each other up.
    Whether in big business or in geopolitics, there is no such thing as friendship. “Bolivar can’t stand two people,” even if the second one is your partner or even a relative. Alas, alas.
    Well, more precisely, the real competitor (competition = war) was not the city of Genoa, but some noble Italian families, not only from Genoa, who were closely connected with the papal throne. And their direct heirs still manage the largest banks, being the real “masters of life.”
  57. Illanatol Rank
    Illanatol
    +2
    24 January 2023 10: 17
    Quote: Keer
    And with Genoa and Byzantium everything is quite transparent. The Genoese colonies on the Black Sea existed exactly until the Turks captured Constantinople and that is the same straits.


    Late Byzantium was weak and could no longer actively undertake anything; it was not even capable of holding its own.
    Turks... how many of them were there, ethnic Ottomans? With a gulkin nose. That’s why the residents of Constantinople did not offer resistance to Suleiman’s troops, only the mercenaries took the rap?
    And because the army of the Turkish Sultan consisted, to a large extent, of former Byzantine subjects who had converted to Islam. And after the “Turks” captured the city, it’s likely that a considerable part of its inhabitants also converted to Islam. So there is complete continuity.

    And when the former Byzantium, having become the Great Porte, thanks to Islam, gained a new impetus in development and power, it began to pursue a more active policy towards its former competing partners. “Get out of here” - that’s all.
  58. Illanatol Rank
    Illanatol
    +1
    24 January 2023 10: 24
    Quote: Seal
    But with Genoa, Constantinople has the opposite: peace; friendship, chewing gum.


    And who really ran the show in these Italian city-states? In Genoa, Venice, Florence?
    Perhaps the same names that pursued a very flexible policy.
    Future British politics will come from some of these names.
    In short, “there are no eternal enemies and friends, there are only eternal interests.”
    So sometimes - peace and friendship, and sometimes - something else, if this is what the gesheft promises.
    I suspect that the capture of Constantinople by the crusaders, and later its final decline, was also beneficial to those who were previously listed as his “partners”.
  59. Illanatol Rank
    Illanatol
    +3
    24 January 2023 10: 34
    Quote: Keer
    And regarding the number of troops, these numbers in Soviet and school textbooks came from early studies of the 19th century, when they did not bother much with assessing the realism of the size of armies and navies. And they took “Herodotus’ hundred thousand” directly from the sources. The armor of the Mongols is approximately similar to the armor of the Moscow horseman of the 14th, 15th and 16th centuries, and their cold weapons are almost identical, because they were borrowed from the Tatars.


    Wonderful. You see what “History” really is as a science.
    Compare with physics. Well, if the physicists of Brezhnev’s time relied on “research of the 19th century”, on the postulates of that time, physics could hardly be considered a serious science either. tongue

    The explanation is simpler: both Muscovites and Horde are compatriots, both are Russian, basically. Well, a few Turks, Bulgars (“Tatars”), Khazars and Finno-Ugric people.
    I follow the advice of a medieval monk: “do not multiply the number of entities without measure.” The phenomenon of the Horde can be explained without attracting wild shepherds from the other end of the continent, which means it is possible to do without the latter.
    1. Keer Rank
      Keer
      0
      24 January 2023 18: 42
      Wonderful. You see what “History” really is as a science.
      Compare with physics. Well, if the physicists of Brezhnev’s time relied on “research of the 19th century”, on the postulates of that time, physics could hardly be considered a serious science either
      . Scientific criteria: 1Scientific theory should not contradict observations. 2 A scientific theory must give correct predictions of the results of subsequent observations, measurements, experiments, the course of natural processes, and other things. Thus Aristotelian physics was less scientific than modern physics. Changing ideas about physical processes over time is development, not “changing shoes” laughing and with history something similar. History does not fit the second criterion of science, like Aristotelian physics, in the dynamics section. But perhaps this is only for now.
    2. Keer Rank
      Keer
      -1
      24 January 2023 19: 32
      Quote: Illanatol
      The phenomenon of the Horde can be explained without attracting wild shepherds from the other end of the continent, which means it can be done without
      It’s possible to get by, but it would require such a multiplication of entities that that monk’s eyes would darken. Although this does not bother our alternative workers at all. laughing
  60. Seal Rank
    Seal
    +1
    24 January 2023 11: 56
    Quote: Keer
    Hold
    So what ? At the beginning of the XNUMXth century, this document was discovered by Remusat and published in the original (Memoires des l'Academie des Inscriptions T. VII). Russian scientist Ya.I. Schmidt tried to make the first translation. [IJ Schmidt. Philologisch-kritische Zugabe zu den zwei mongolischen Texten. Petersburg, 1824. Isaac Ivanovich Schmidt (1779-1847) - orientalist, researcher at the St. Petersburg Academy of Sciences, Dutch by birth. His works were mostly published in German, but some of them were later translated into Russian. Schmidt specialized in the Kalmyk, Mongolian and Tibetan languages]. Later, Prince Roland Napoleon Bonaparte checked the original and made corrections to the text. [Roland Bonaparte Documents de l'epoque mongole. Paris, 1895]. Finally, Kotvich, at the Warsaw Congress of Historians in 1993, proposed a new, believed to be more reliable translation. Which became canonical.
    By the way, historians claim that although this letter is written in the Uyghur alphabet, the words in it are supposedly Mongolian. Why not Uyghurs? So, translation.
    "Oljeit Sultan our word. To Iridfarans (King of France) Sultan. How could we forget that since ancient times all of you, the Sultans of the Frankish citizens, peacefully treated our good great-grandfather (Hulagu Khan), good grandfather (Abaga Khan), kind father (Arghun Khan) and good brother (Ghazan Khan), considering us close, although you are far away, uttering your various words and sending your envoys and gifts with wishes of health?
    Transcription of another line: “Naran urgahui Nankhiyasiin ornoos avan Talu dalai khurtel ulus barildaj zamuudaa yuulav.”
    Translation of the line: "Our nation was united (peacefully united) from the land of Nanhiya (plural for "Chinese"), where the sun rises, to the Talu Ocean (Mediterranean Sea), and our roads were linked together."
    The Chinese hieroglyphs written in the same font of ten seals are printed on the red press: 真命 皇帝 文順 寶 寶 寶 zhēnmìngdì tiānshùn wànyí zhī bǎo ("The precious seal of the emperor, who was instructed to pacify ten thousand foreign peoples").
    Now let's remove what's in brackets. Since what is in brackets has already been added by historians and editors.
    So what remains: ""Oljeit Sultan has our word. Iridfarans Sultan. How could it be forgotten that since ancient times all of you, the sultans of the Frankish citizens, have treated our good great-grandfather, good grandfather, good father and good brother peacefully, considering us close, although you are far away, speaking your various words and sending your envoys and gifts with wishes for health?"
    Our nation was connected from the land of Nanhiya where the sun rises to the ocean of Talu and our roads were linked together."
    "The precious seal of the emperor who was entrusted with the pacification of ten thousand foreign nations."
    However, exactly the same seal is translated as: ““The seal of the truly authorized Highest Emperor, to whom Heaven bestows ten thousand things.”
    If historians had not explained to us that Oljeitu (or Oljeitu) is precisely the Ilkhan, a descendant of the “Mongols,” then how would we know from this letter who wrote this letter and to whom?
    A certain Oljeitu writes to a certain Iridfarans. No date. There is no indication of where he is writing from. Oljeitu also does not call himself anything.
    It is believed that the official Oljeitu has been a Nestorian since childhood, baptized under the name Nicholas. Then he converted to Buddhism. Then to Sunni Islam. And then he thought again and in 1310 he converted to Shiism.
    Why would he, who most likely knows Latin or Greek, write in Uighur letters?
    Compare with normal documents, at least ours: “We, John, Fedor, Boris, Mikhail, Alexey, Fedor, Peter, Ekaterina, etc., then comes the title (full or incomplete is not the point, the main thing is that it is present). At the end it is written: “Given in St. Petersburg” or “Given in the capital city of Moscow.”
    Who else could have written this letter? Yes, at least someone from the state of Eretnaogullar - an Anatolian beylik (emirate) with its capital in Sivas and Kayseri, which was ruled by the Uyghur dynasty between 1335 and 1381. If the rulers are Uyghurs, then it is logical that they write in Uyghur letters.
    Who is Iridfarans? You never know who. Are there not enough Don Pedros in Brazil? Historians believe that this was the name of the French King Philip. Why not the Byzantine Andronicus? And in a number of translations I suggest reading that this is not an appeal to a specific person. and to many Frankish sultans.
    An interesting phrase is that at the beginning of the 1811th century this document was discovered by Remusat. Who is this ? Jean-Pierre Abel-Remusat, born in Paris, studied medicine in his youth. He became interested in the East after discovering a Chinese herbalist in the library of Abbot Tersan, and for five years he independently studied the Chinese language. In XNUMX he published his first book, Essai sur la langue et la littérature chinoises.
    In 1814, a department of Chinese language was organized at the Collège de France, headed by Abel-Remusat. From that time on, he devoted himself entirely to oriental studies, especially interested in the history of the Turks and Mongols as illuminated by Chinese sources. In 1815 he became a full member of the Academy of Inscriptions and Fine Literature. Since 1818 he published the Journal des savants. In 1822, on his initiative, the Asiatic Society was created in Paris (Jean-Pierre became its first scientific secretary).
    In 1824 he was appointed Keeper of Oriental Manuscripts at the Royal Library. In 1832, he became the head of the library, but did not remain in this post for long.
    In 1826, Abel-Remusat introduced Chinese fiction to Europe for the first time. He translated and published the XNUMXth century novel Iu-kiao-li, ou les deux cousines, roman chinois (玉嬌梨). Such writers as Goethe, Stendhal, Carlyle and Edgar Allan Poe became interested in the translation (this novel is not very popular in China itself).
    No information could be found on how exactly this letter was discovered by Jean-Pierre.
    PS Why did they suddenly start demanding something from me? Especially
    Now you have the document “Pop Ivan” or “Father of the Romans” or any Great Hyper of Tataria, to choose from.
    Read above. I wrote that the struggle between the admirers of Great Mongolia and the admirers of Great Tartary is the struggle of the Nanai boys. In conditions of complete lack of documents, both wrestlers.
    1. Keer Rank
      Keer
      -1
      24 January 2023 16: 42
      : “We, John, Fedor, Boris, Mikhail, Alexey, Fedor, Peter, Ekaterina, etc., then comes the title (full or incomplete - it doesn’t matter, the main thing is that it is present). At the end
      It’s strange to use as an example one character who, in your opinion, did not reliably exist, set the style of writing letters to others who did not reliably exist, laughing
  61. Seal Rank
    Seal
    +2
    24 January 2023 12: 13
    Quote: Keer
    The Genoese colonies on the Black Sea existed exactly until the Turks captured Constantinople and that is the same straits.

    By the mid-15th century, the population of Galata (Pera) began to exceed the population of Constantinople itself. Relations between Genoa and the Ottoman Empire underwent different stages, from alliance to hostility. When the City was taken by the Ottomans, the inhabitants of Galata received the so-called. “Privilege to the people of Galatia and their nobles,” the text of which is compiled in Greek and is now kept in the British Library. In fact, the situation looked like this. Part of the city wall that protected Galata was destroyed by the Ottomans, and weapons were confiscated. Divine services could be held, but without loud calls to prayer and ringing of bells. The former mayor of Galata wrote in a letter to his brother who lived in Genoa that the Ottomans left everyone their property, and those who fled were offered to return or their property would be confiscated.
    The Sultan needed "francs." Francesco Draperio, a wealthy Genoese merchant, served the Sultan for a long time as a diplomat. The Ottomans needed Western Europeans at court to establish contacts with the ruling houses of Europe. Following his policy of gathering the people from 1475 to 1480, the Sultan moved the Genoese from their colonies in the Aegean Sea and from the Crimea here to Galata. They were so interesting to him that he sometimes came to watch their mass. The year 1465 was marked by the penetration of the Florentines into Galata. The Florentines, the eternal rivals of Genoa, decided to oust their coreligionists. This year the Sultan himself attended a gala dinner tripled in his honor by the main Florentine trading post. By 1469, 50 trade missions and companies from Florence were already operating in Galaeta.
    The Sultan wanted to make his empire multinational, not shying away from multi-religion, but most importantly, he wanted to return Constantinople to its former economic power. After all, it is known that after the defeat of Constantinople by Christian Catholics, the city fell into decay and the situation never improved. Many neighborhoods were never repopulated. The Sultan needed to quickly correct the situation, launch the economy in order to get more people from whom taxes could be collected. Nowadays this is called “expanding the tax base.” The city was located extremely well, at the crossroads of trade routes from Asia to Europe, but its full potential at the time of the conquest had never been revealed or used. Having occupied Constantinople, Mehmet the Second breathed new life into it.
    The colony enjoyed all the rights of self-government, like other peoples inhabiting the Ottoman Empire and Istanbul. A kind of stock exchange was created in Galata, and there were its own courts for civil and commercial matters. The post office worked, notaries and other services providing trade worked. The oldest families of Galata were the Draperi and Farnetti, and the Ottoman sultans listened to their advice. Following traditions, traditional carnivals were held every year in Galata prior to the onset of Lent. Galata developed its own traditions, its own culture and even its own language. Pidgin - Italian, a language in which Greek, French, Spanish, Arabic and Turkish words were mixed, became the common language of the streets of Galata, giving a special flavor to these places. In taverns they served wine and beer and, if necessary, pork.
    1. Keer Rank
      Keer
      -1
      24 January 2023 16: 52
      Why did you post this? What does the eviction of the Genoese from Koym after their defeat by the Ottomans, and even in the version of the Ottomans themselves, have to do with the relations between Genoa and Byzantium?
  62. Seal Rank
    Seal
    +2
    24 January 2023 12: 28
    Quote: Keer
    there were no elephants, it turns out
    You see, the image of an elephant still contains all its main features. But in the image of a Tatar (Mongol) on the tombstone of Henry the Pious there is not a single sign characteristic of a Tatar (and even more so of a Mongol). A large, thick beard on a Tatar (Mongol) is the same as if your elephant in the picture had thick, long hair. Or if he had drawn not two tusks, but one horn.
    1. Keer Rank
      Keer
      -1
      24 January 2023 15: 51
      How is there no sign of a Mongol? Two legs, etc. You are not able to understand my bold hint that if the artist has not seen the object he is depicting, this does not mean that such an object does not exist. Well, the sculptor was not on the battlefield, and they did not bring him a frozen Mongol, because there were no refrigerators. However, since, as you yourself admitted, you are an extremely rare specimen here, a historical nihilist, i.e. you completely deny the possibility of knowing history, and do not pretend to the truth of some alternative version of it, moreover, you deny the possibility in principle of any version, then I stop arguing with you and happily shake your hand laughing
      1. Evil eye Rank
        Evil eye
        +3
        24 January 2023 17: 36
        Well, as usual: “if you see the inscription “elephant” on a cage with a tiger, then don’t believe your eyes, believe the officials.” laughing
        The bottom line is that the artists of the Mongols did not even see, did not imagine what they looked like, and the authorities did not imagine this either, otherwise they would not have accepted such hack work. Those. "Mongols" for European rulers were an epic people like the Cyclopes. Which, of course, is a powerful argument in favor of the existence of the Mongol Empire.
    2. Keer Rank
      Keer
      -1
      24 January 2023 17: 39
      it’s the same as if your elephant in the picture had thick, long hair. Or if he had drawn not two tusks, but one horn.
      such?
  63. Seal Rank
    Seal
    +1
    24 January 2023 17: 37
    Quote: Keer
    It’s strange to use as an example one character who, in your opinion, did not reliably exist, set the style of letters written by others who did not reliably exist.
    Is that how you read?
    In fact, there are even clearly identified signatures left from them.
    except that I got carried away with Ivan the Terrible. Khoyat, just consider John not the Terrible, but the brother of Peter the Great.
    These are the signatures found in the archives.
    1. Keer Rank
      Keer
      -1
      24 January 2023 20: 56
      Who else identified these signatures would be worth investigating laughing it’s not me, you should consider that Peter’s Personality is unreliable, since it is you who are a mere nihilist, not me laughing
    2. Keer Rank
      Keer
      -1
      25 January 2023 00: 00
      Khoyat, just consider John not the Terrible, but the brother of Peter the Great.
      No, really - pipes. This you can consider anyone, anyone. I'm not that much of a nihilist laughing
  64. Seal Rank
    Seal
    +1
    24 January 2023 17: 43
    Quote: Keer
    completely deny the possibility of knowing history
    I just modestly add my voice to the voices of such “historical nihilists” as:

    Our entire history is a fiction that everyone agrees with.
    Вольтер

    There are many pages in the history of any nation that would be magnificent if they were true.
    D. Didro


    If you remove all the lies from history, this does not mean at all that only the truth will remain - as a result, there may be nothing left at all.
    Stanislav E. Lec

    The information that the ancients did not have was very extensive.
    Mark Twain
    God cannot change the past, but historians can. And it must be precisely because they sometimes provide this service that God tolerates their existence.
    Samuel Butler

    History has been rewritten to such a state that even historians themselves are at a loss about what the word “history” means.
    David Bowie

    History has the same relation to truth as theology has to faith, namely, nothing.
    Robert Heinlein

    Perhaps a more accurate description of what never happened is the historian's inalienable privilege and specialty.
    Oscar Wilde

    History is the quintessence of gossip.
    Thomas Carlyle

    History is just a fable accepted by everyone.
    B. Fontenel

    Our only duty to history is to constantly rewrite it.
    Oscar Wilde

    History is an art gallery with few originals and many copies.
    A. Tocqueville

    In the vast expanses of the ocean of slander called “history”, one wave, even a large one, does not have much significance.
    Arnold Matthew

    History is like meat pate: it’s better not to look closely at how it’s prepared.
    Aldous Huxley

    History is the product of the secretions of the glands of a million historians.
    John Steinbeck

    Anyone who knows history well is not tempted by the occupation of a historiographer.
    Stanislav Jerzy Lec

    God cannot change the past, but historians can. And it must be precisely because they sometimes provide this service that God tolerates their existence.
    Samuel Butler

    Those who make history often at the same time fake it.
    Weslav Brudzinsky

    History is too serious a matter to be left to historians.
    Ian McLeod

    The story begins when nothing is impossible to verify.
    Vyacheslav Verkhovsky

    Everything is in the hands of the Lord, and only History has escaped His control.
    Zbigniew Hedgehog

    History does not repeat itself - historians simply repeat each other.
    [i][b]Clement F. Rogers

    No one has changed the history of mankind like historians.
    E. Mackenzie

    if the artist has not seen the object he is depicting, this does not mean that such an object does not exist.

    The artist may well draw an object from the words of those who have seen this object. In particular, this is how they used to compile what is now called a “photo sketch of a criminal.”
    1. Keer Rank
      Keer
      0
      24 January 2023 20: 59
      He might have drawn, or he might not have drawn, and a great many equally probable explanations can be found for this. You, as a nihilist, must understand this laughing
  65. Seal Rank
    Seal
    +2
    24 January 2023 17: 54
    Quote: Keer
    And when the inhabitants of Zawa saw the retreating banners and saw the backs of the Mongols, they, in their foolishness, began to beat drums and tarabs and began to shout insulting and abusive words. The Mongols, seeing their insulting antics and hearing their speeches, turned back and in a rage attacked all three fortresses, placing ladders against their walls.
    Oh, they (the Mongols) were also polyglots. Knowing all languages ​​and dialects. Distinguished swear words from greetings. lol
    1. Keer Rank
      Keer
      0
      24 January 2023 20: 51
      There were no Mongols, and no one at all, more or less reliably. We have already discussed this with you. laughing
    2. Evil eye Rank
      Evil eye
      +2
      24 January 2023 21: 21
      Yes, and the ladders were carried directly on the shoulders, so that in case of emergency they would immediately attack laughing
      1. Keer Rank
        Keer
        0
        24 January 2023 23: 39
        They could take them away from summer residents, or order ready-made aluminum poles with express delivery, or they could make them on the spot from local materials, and they could carry the poles with them. The probability of all these options is much greater than the probability of a world conspiracy with the washing of chronicles from parchments, the sending of papal and English evildoers throughout Eurasia from Lisbon to Tokyo, who built false remains of cities and covered them with sand, yes, so that when they are excavated in 20th century, they coincided with the false descriptions of Rubruk, and with the pseudo-Chinese CD. discovered before excavations. laughing and at the same time, so that such a mission does not leave any traces.
        1. Illanatol Rank
          Illanatol
          +2
          25 January 2023 10: 17
          Allegedly, the Vatican library contains correspondence between the Golden Horde khans and the Popes.
          Can you provide a link to a source that would allow us to familiarize ourselves with the contents of these interesting documents?
          No?
          It is a pity.
          I’m sure there’s a lot of interesting stuff there that would make official historians’ hair stand on end, and not just on their heads.
  66. Illanatol Rank
    Illanatol
    +3
    25 January 2023 09: 25
    Quote: Keer
    here comrade Seal, as it turned out, is a historical nihilist, and you, it turns out, are a geographical nihilist, maybe you are a map fighter? Do you consider geodesy and cartography a false science?


    And what is wrong?
    Some quite official historians seriously argued that the Mongols went directly through the taiga, including the peoples of Siberia.
    So what does geodesy have to do with it?
    Cartography... and what about the maps on which that very “Great Tartary” is depicted? Are they "false" or not "false"?
  67. Illanatol Rank
    Illanatol
    +3
    25 January 2023 09: 53
    Quote: Keer
    It’s possible to get by, but it would require such a multiplication of entities that that monk’s eyes would darken. Although this does not bother our alternative workers at all.


    Which ones, for example? Announce the entire list, please.
    The Horde are the predecessors of the Cossacks. Kazakov - do we need to invent something? They seem to exist and exist.
    And the Cossacks, in any case, are more similar to the Horde than the Mongolian shepherds, and now they are not inclined to high socialization.
    As the Mongols put it: “It hurts my eyes when I see the yurts of the neighboring clan (family).
    Cossacks retained passion and high fighting qualities in later times. They even have the desire to “see the last sea” (according to V. Yan). Dezhnev, Khabarov... but the real Mongols are homebodies, they don’t want to explore new lands, and for some reason they don’t demonstrate high fighting qualities in the 16th-19th centuries.

    Let's take, for example, the Cossack chieftain Stepan Razin. The Moscow state with a completely regular army could barely cope with it. And if you had transferred Razin and his boys to the 13th century... he would have immediately built up the princes of that time with their squads, which numbered in the hundreds. Why not a ready-made Horde khan?

    Why couldn’t social groups like the Cossacks exist then? Yes, easily. And not only in Rus'.
    If you believe Chinese sources, for example, in the 12-13 centuries, the hero of China, General Yue Fei, had to fight not only the Manchus, but also entire armies (allegedly up to 100 soldiers) of robbers, one might say local Cossacks. In the Manchu Empire there could also have been such people; Temujin probably stood at the head of one of the robber armies.

    Tamerlane had the core of his army from the so-called. Ghulams - local rowdy lads, who also had no brother in the devil.
    In the distant European Czech Republic, the Hussites, led by Jan Zizka, also beat a lot of pots. If they had gained the upper hand, they could have organized their own “Horde”.

    In general, the trend was massive. The development of feudalism with all its “charms” was not to everyone’s taste, so communities appeared that did not really want to fit into this, became lumpen, organized communities based on more just (in their opinion) principles of the so-called. military democracy.

    And unscrupulous historians took advantage of this and combined similar processes and phenomena into one pile (okay, at least they didn’t sign the Hussites), to create a single unprecedented state formation - the “Empire of Genghis Khan”.

    In general, the main weapon for Iga is ready. All that remains is to create a knightly “Golden Order” that would direct the local horsemen in the right direction (for the Pope and his entourage).
    The residence of the "Golden Order" was located in Prague. The knights, partly, went overland to the southern Russian steppes, crossing the Tatras. That’s why the “Tatars” came out of the Tatras.
    The rest - by sea, fortunately Constantinople did not object, the Latin crusaders were sitting there. The Catholic Genoese also did not mind; they would get their profit from the slave trade.
    1. Keer Rank
      Keer
      0
      25 January 2023 14: 31
      Which ones, for example? Announce the entire list, please.
      The Horde are the predecessors of the Cossacks. Kazakov - do we need to invent something? They seem to exist and exist.

      The first and easiest task
      at least to prove that the Cossacks are the successors and descendants of the Horde. Documents, archeology, genetics. And, then, anyone can mock the sources of the “officials” and provide as an alternative all sorts of their own, and not very, “inventions and nonsense” about “similarity” laughing
  68. Illanatol Rank
    Illanatol
    +3
    25 January 2023 10: 07
    Quote: Keer
    . Scientific criteria: 1Scientific theory should not contradict observations. 2 A scientific theory must give correct predictions of the results of subsequent observations, measurements, experiments, the course of natural processes, and other things. Thus Aristotelian physics was less scientific than modern physics. Changing ideas about physical processes in time is a development, and not a “change of shoes” laughing and something similar with history. History does not fit the second criterion of science, like Aristotelian physics, in the dynamics section. But perhaps this is only for now.


    Science, which treats the factual basis so carelessly (it doesn’t matter how many warriors there were. 30 or 000... why count them, adversaries), cannot be considered science.

    There was no "Aristotelian physics".
    At that time there were no sciences at all, in the modern sense. There was only descriptive natural philosophy. And these are two big differences.
    An exception, perhaps, can only be made for mechanics. But this is Archimedes, and definitely not Aristotle.

    The basis of any real science is the invariance and verification of data. The data must be reproduced, and by the hands of different researchers.
    It would be nice to have confirmation provided by other scientific disciplines. Fomenko and Nosovsky are criticized, even if correctly, but the fact that they at least tried to involve astronomy, in particular, is a plus for them.

    Modern historiography has not moved very far from ancient natural philosophy and does not yet meet the criteria of science. Empirical verification is impossible, experiments cannot be carried out. Truly, “we only know that we know nothing.”
    1. Keer Rank
      Keer
      0
      25 January 2023 14: 48
      Fomenko and Nosovsky are criticized, even if correctly, but the fact that they at least tried to involve astronomy, in particular, is a plus for them.
      , but they didn’t take into account the displacement of the stars and ended up in a puddle. I didn’t understand why you wrote the rest of the text. Do you think that science is not developing, or have you decided to retell the scientific criteria I outlined and the view on the scientific nature of modern history, using the term “verification”?
      There was no "Aristotelian physics"
      And so as not to write here
      "Aristotle's qualitative physics is a holistic, complete education, therefore all of its provisions, one way or another, influenced astronomy. Aristotle divides movements into circular and rectilinear, which leads to the division of the world into two qualitatively heterogeneous areas: supralunar and sublunar. The first is the world of the eternal the circular motion of celestial bodies consisting of ether, the second is the changeable (nothing lasts forever under the Moon!) world of the four elements, in the center of which is the motionless Earth"
      And not only the mechanics were suitable, but also the hydrostatics.
      1. Illanatol Rank
        Illanatol
        +1
        26 January 2023 09: 57
        Quote: Keer
        And so as not to write here
        "Aristotle's qualitative physics is a holistic, complete education, therefore all of its provisions, one way or another, influenced astronomy. Aristotle divides movements into circular and rectilinear, which leads to the division of the world into two qualitatively heterogeneous areas: supralunar and sublunar. The first is the world of the eternal the circular motion of celestial bodies consisting of ether, the second is the changeable (nothing lasts forever under the Moon!) world of the four elements, in the center of which is the motionless Earth"


        This is not physics at all. Complete crap.
        He shares movements, yeah. Holistic, complete education. laughing
        Aristotle was engaged in sophistication and picking his nose.

        Archimedes nevertheless carried out experiments, obtained empirical knowledge, and therefore can be considered a scientist. Unlike Aristotle.
      2. Evil eye Rank
        Evil eye
        +1
        1 February 2023 05: 47
        Before the 4th century, the dating of the vast majority of eclipses is unclear, but in Amalgest there are a lot of traces of medieval origin. For example, the fact that it begins with the North Star laughing

        But Fomenko and Nosovsky got into a puddle, and the traditionalists, whose total eclipses often turn out to be incomplete or completely invisible, didn’t get anywhere. L-logic. Although it is possible, in this case L is a puddle winked
    2. Keer Rank
      Keer
      0
      25 January 2023 15: 33
      There was only descriptive natural philosophy
      I’ll tell you a secret: physics is also a descriptive science, it does not deal with the “essence of things” laughing and natural philosophy is a term. Newton's work is full of useful physics, diffusers, and geometry, if you remember, of course. Have you read it? So it is called the mat principles of nat philosophy, that is, physics.
  69. The comment was deleted.
  70. Seal Rank
    Seal
    +2
    25 January 2023 10: 49
    Quote: Keer
    such?
    Are you on your own again? Are you implying that this elephant has no tusks? Well, maybe the one who told the artist about the elephant saw the elephant not in Africa, but in Asia. Moreover, I saw not an elephant, but a female elephant. If you are not aware, then let me inform you that Asian elephants are among those elephants that may not have tusks at all. Female Asian elephants, in particular, typically lack tusks, while a certain percentage of males have them. If the female has fangs, they are much smaller than the male. In India, elephants born without tusks are called Mahna.
    Why are you attached to elephants?
    The vast majority of people in Europe did not imagine an elephant at all. At that time, people had a good idea of ​​what people looked like, even if they were not from a village or city. Moreover, the author of such a wonderful sculpture. Which, in terms of the quality of execution, can, of course, only be attributed to the era of Leonardo Da Vinci, Raphael, Michelangelo.
    1. Keer Rank
      Keer
      0
      25 January 2023 15: 09
      It wasn’t me who “clung” to the elephants, but you to the sculptor laughing and try to draw conclusions.
  71. Seal Rank
    Seal
    +2
    25 January 2023 10: 56
    Quote: Illanatol
    In general, the main weapon for Iga is ready. All that remains is to create a knightly “Golden Order” that would direct the local horsemen in the right direction (for the Pope and his entourage).
    The residence of the "Golden Order" was located in Prague. The knights, partly, went overland to the southern Russian steppes, crossing the Tatras. That’s why the “Tatars” came out of the Tatras.
    The rest - by sea, fortunately Constantinople did not object, the Latin crusaders were sitting there. The Catholic Genoese also did not mind; they would get their profit from the slave trade.
    And this version, if I’m not mistaken, of Dmitry Vitalievich also has a legal right to exist.
    Well, in principle, in conditions of complete uncertainty and the absence of authentic historical documents, it would be quite correct to adhere to Zhabinsky’s theory of the multivariate nature of History.
  72. Seal Rank
    Seal
    +2
    25 January 2023 11: 17
    Quote: Keer
    sending papal and English evil men throughout Eurasia from Lisbon to Tokyo, who built false remains of cities and covered them with sand, yes, so that when they are excavated in the 20th century, they coincide with the false descriptions of Rubruk, and with the pseudo-Chinese CD. discovered before excavations

    Again. There was no falsification. There was creation. The Jesuits carried out the most important mission - disseminating the Vatican version of history throughout the world. And not only the Jesuits, but also a lot of monks of other orders. For example, not only the well-known Dominicans, but also the now little-known Cistercians. But in the 80th century, the General Chapter of the Cistercian Order obliged all monastic abbeys, numbering more than 40 monks, to found schools at the monasteries. All abbeys with more than 1770 monks were required to send at least two people to study at the University of Paris. Many Cistercian abbeys had the best libraries for their time - the Clairvaux library contained 2000 manuscripts in the XNUMXth century, and the library of Himmerod Abbey about XNUMX
    All these fighters of the Vatican’s ideological front understood that it was after the people were indoctrinated with the Vatican’s version of history that it would be easier for them to fulfill the most important mission - to spread Christianity.
    You can see anything and anyone. But those whose minds have been captured by the Vatican version of history, even if they find the remains of a monkey, will still claim that “the remains of the Tatars” have been found.
    You need to know that representatives of European Catholic orders have been conducting their mission in the territory of what is now China, in Macau, since 1563. On September 20, 1579, the Jesuit Ruggeri arrived in Macau. He made successful attempts to penetrate Chinese territory
    Ruggeri and another Jesuit, Francesco Pasio, spent several months in the winter of 1582/83. in Zhaoqing, in the west of Guangdong province, where in the Ming era the residence of the governor-general of the two southern provinces, Guangdong and Guangxi, was located. Finally, permission was granted, and on September 10, 1583, Ruggeri and Ricci were finally able to open a permanent mission in Zhaoqing. Subsequently, after Ruggeri's departure from China, Ricci moved this mission to Shaoguan in the north of the province, then (in 1599) to Nanjing, and in 1600 to Beijing. That is, the Jesuits have been in Beijing since 1600.
    During the several years spent in Zhaoqing, Ruggieri and Ricci, with the help of their Chinese assistants, created both a number of works designed for Chinese readers and important educational materials, which were subsequently used by new generations of Jesuits arriving in China to master the language and classical literature of the country.
    Tell me what prevented the members of the Catholic Orders who explored Asia, and they also had information received from other Christians - Jacobites, Nestorians, who even earlier began to explore the depths of Asia, to write down information about various buried and half-buried cities there, and then convey this information to Europe in the form of reports from all sorts of Rubruk and Carpini? After all, let me remind you that no one has seen the original reports of Rubruk and Carpini, the handwriting of these comrades is unknown to humanity.
    Moreover, even if in our chronicles (as I showed above) dozens of sheets were replaced, then what prevented the Jesuits or anyone else from replacing or adding sheets to the reports of any travelers who arrived from Asia?
    Of course, in the 20th century they found something that fit the description of Rubruk and Carpini. It doesn't even matter what place it was. After all, there were always several options for both paths.
    And what series of works designed for Chinese readers were created in China, having settled, let me remind you, back in 1600 in Beijing? Probably those works that will interest the Chinese themselves? And first of all, works on the history of China. Is not it ?
  73. Seal Rank
    Seal
    +2
    25 January 2023 11: 28
    Quote: Keer
    You, as a nihilist, must understand this
    I'm realist. Unlike fans of an unsubstantiated but fascinating fantasy called “Ancient History of Humanity.”
    However, the fact that you began to resort to labeling only shows that you understand the weakness of your position about the reality of the official version of history. But you don't want to admit it. Even to myself.
    And further. The fact that China, which has a population of one and a half billion people, is starting to revise the official version of Genghis Khan, and that India, which has a population of one and a half billion, doesn’t care at all about this issue, as does the population of Africa, which has a population of one and a half billion people, and South America, which has a population of half a billion people, then your attempts to label me a nihilist look very far-fetched and helpless.
    1. Keer Rank
      Keer
      0
      25 January 2023 14: 13
      your attempts to label me a nihilist

      What does hang mean? laughing But, however, this is no longer important. Not for long, I see, you were enough in this incarnation
      The Jesuits carried out the most important mission - disseminating the Vatican version of history throughout the world. And not only Jesuits, but also a lot of monks of other orders
      . Ay, yay. You turn out to be a terry alternative. And, contrary to your statements, you still have your own version of history.
      laughing Your long text after the words of the orders does not at all prove “the imposition of the Vatican version of history.” A papal document with an order for falsification, better imagine, you have it, I have no doubt about it and it’s not narrative, of course, but “documentary historical” laughing
    2. Keer Rank
      Keer
      0
      25 January 2023 15: 22
      I'm realist
      Who's arguing? Realist of parallel reality.
  74. Illanatol Rank
    Illanatol
    +2
    25 January 2023 14: 24
    Quote: Seal
    And this version, if I’m not mistaken, of Dmitry Vitalievich also has a legal right to exist.


    Well, it seems to be clearly more plausible. There is motivation, there are resources, geographical proximity and the necessary context of events (we subjugated Byzantium - let us subjugate its spiritual vassals).

    And the Oirat shepherds from distant Mongolia... they have nothing. It is as plausible as the ancestors of the Tungus reindeer herders who built the great pyramids of Giza or the great Ukrainians who dug up Crimea with shovels.

    In the near future, “official historians” may well postulate the thesis of “Great Papuasia”, which has captured half the world. And there will be evidence, traces of the cultural influence of the Papuans on European countries. Tattoos, piercings, youth dances reminiscent of Papuans' war dances.
    And it will be possible to prove that the Third Reich lost the war, since the American hero Bruce Willis beat Hitler with a baseball bat. Documents proving this will be available...
  75. The comment was deleted.
  76. Seal Rank
    Seal
    +1
    25 January 2023 15: 08
    Quote: futurohunter
    By the way, the capital of the Mongol Empire - Karakorum - was also found

    Have you found Karakorum? Oh really ??? This is exactly the same Karakorum?? God be with you.
    Let me explain to you how such cities are located using the example of Israel.
    The problem is that archeology is not a descriptive discipline in its own right. All archaeologists are a subspecies of historians. And everything that archaeologists (archaeological historians) find, they drive into a long-established historical framework. They simply don’t know how to do it any other way. The historical school is so conservative that any history student who even slightly dares to show his skepticism about history will be immediately expelled by the system.
    So, using the example of Israeli archaeologists.
    For example, Israeli archaeologists need to find the city “N” mentioned in the Bible. So they take and read in the Old Testament that such and such a prophet or some other figure in the times of prehistoric non-materialism left Jerusalem on a camel (on a donkey, on a rickshaw, on a chariot ...) to Tire or Sidon and after two day of travel, I spent the night in the city “N”. How can Israeli archaeologists solve the problem of finding this city "N". Their algorithm is as follows. You need to stand at the supposed gates of “ancient Jerusalem”, take the direction to modern “Tire” or “Sidon” (or to those places where historians have “precisely established” these cities were located), estimate the average speed of a camel (or other vehicle) and ….use a calculator to calculate where that same prophet or other figure could end up after two days of travel.
    Then archaeologists come to that place and start digging. It happens that in that very place some Byzantine or Arabic or Persian or Turkish caravanserai is immediately dug out from under the sand or other soil. Hurray, the champagne is opened, the city “N” mentioned in the Bible has been found.
    Option two. They started digging, but found nothing. No problem. Israeli archaeologists are simply expanding their search sector. Maybe the camel was super fast or, on the contrary, lame. Or maybe the prophet rode on a donkey, but they wrote, they say, on a camel. Maybe that same prophet or other figure spent the night somewhere on the first night, but the Bible does not say about this. Maybe he got lost in the desert. In short, Israeli archaeologists are expanding the search sector, additionally hiring Arabs or someone else to dig in the desert, and they dig, dig, dig... until they stumble upon the sand-covered ruins of some village (Byzantine, Arab, Turkish...). It is then announced that the city “N” mentioned in the Bible has been found, and champagne is opened.
  77. Seal Rank
    Seal
    +1
    25 January 2023 15: 18
    Quote: Keer
    And, contrary to your statements, you still have your own version of history.

    Can't live without lying? Is there an explanation of how since the end of the 16th (for a moment - SIXTEENTH century AD) the now recognized official version of history has spread throughout the world, is this “my version of history”???
    Quote: Keer
    Your long text after the words of the orders does not at all prove “the imposition of the Vatican version of history.” A papal document with an order for falsification, better imagine, you have it, I have no doubt about it and it’s not narrative, of course, but “documentary historical”
    It's not the same for everybody. It doesn't prove anything to you. And it shows it more than convincingly to normal people.
    The fact that you did not understand that there was no falsification, and history was simply created, clearly shows that you are so deeply in captivity of your own, but as they say. “commonly accepted” misconceptions that you simply are not able to perceive normal explanations.
    And one more thing about labels. It is generally accepted among approximately a billion Christians that Joshua stopped the Sun with prayer, and a certain Samson killed 300 Philistines with the jawbone of a donkey. In your opinion, those who do not believe in this (that is, are not guided by the formula “I believe, because it is absurd”) are all nihilists? It is generally accepted among no fewer Muslims that the prophet flew on a winged creature with the body of a horse and the head of a Borak woman. In your opinion, those who don’t believe in this are all nihilists?
    1. Keer Rank
      Keer
      0
      25 January 2023 16: 13
      Is the explanation of how, from the end of the 16th century (for a minute - the SIXTEENTH century AD) the now recognized official version of history spread throughout the world, this is “my version of history”???
      Well, what do you think? Quite a version of history, a distortion of history. laughing
      It's not the same for everybody. It doesn't prove anything to you. And it shows more than convincingly to normal people......history was simply created,
      "Unproven, dear professor, unproven..."
  78. Seal Rank
    Seal
    +1
    25 January 2023 15: 26
    Quote: Illanatol
    And it will be possible to prove that the Third Reich lost the war, since the American hero Bruce Willis beat Hitler with a baseball bat. Documents proving this will be available...
    I am afraid that with such an attitude towards evidence in History, most people will soon believe in the “generally accepted in the West” version that in World War II England, the USA and Germany defeated the Soviet Union, which collapsed into 15 independent states. But they failed to finish off Russia, because Russia bombarded Japan with atomic bombs, which the evil security officers stole from the Americans, and then Putin came to power. But France at first took the side of the USSR and the allies had to beat her a little. But then the French came to their senses, went over to the side of the Allies, declared war on the USSR, almost took Moscow and even burned it. But then the bloodthirsty Siberian divisions came from the depths of Siberia, bringing with them brutal frosts and the unfortunate French, despite the fact that the Germans arrived to their aid near Moscow with humanitarian aid, together with the Germans everyone completely froze near Moscow.
  79. Keer Rank
    Keer
    +1
    25 January 2023 16: 25
    Quote: futurohunter
    By the way, the capital of the Mongol Empire - Karakorum - was also found
    and Dadu and Shandu. Only alternativeists care about this. Even if Genghis Khan himself had appeared in the flesh, they would have revealed him to be Aunt Sarah’s grandmother. And they would provide a bunch of “analytical” reflections as proof of how things are with grandmothers in Ryazan laughing
  80. Keer Rank
    Keer
    0
    25 January 2023 23: 57
    what's wrong?
    Some quite official historians seriously argued that the Mongols went directly through the taiga, including the peoples of Siberia.
    So what does geodesy have to do with it?
    Cartography... and what about the maps on which that very “Great Tartary” is depicted? Are they "false" or not "false"?
    map, I think it’s in the textbook for the eighth or seventh grade, I don’t remember, it was years ago. There, such arrows show the progress of the Mongol conquests to the west. For 30 years. Look along these arrows and you will see taiga, there was steppe, tundra, pack ice, or something else. laughing and then, perhaps, it will become clear to you how, without boats, on the one hand, and without the need to cut through forests, on the other, the Mongols appeared near Ryazan. Maps where "Great Tartary" was concocted by Vatican agents, your colleague Seal will not let you lie laughing
  81. Keer Rank
    Keer
    0
    26 January 2023 00: 56
    A separate question: how to bring numerous tribes, different in language and customs, to a common denominator? Severe discipline, “if a dozen are guilty, we execute a hundred”? This only works well in pulp books. Cane discipline is a so-so motivator. And all these diverse masses need to be taught the Mongolian language, accustomed to military culture and organization.
    Not so difficult, understanding that the origins of the Turkic and Mongolian languages ​​have almost the same geolocation. Between the Onon and Karulen rivers. For the 12th century Mongols, Turkic was the language of their neighbors across the hill and meadow. Just like in modern Kyrgyzstan, the Kyrgyz speak Russian, and many descendants of Russian colonists of the 19th century speak fluent Kyrgyz, and some also speak Uyghur. Plus the general “service regulations” - Yasa.
  82. Illanatol Rank
    Illanatol
    +1
    26 January 2023 09: 49
    Quote: Keer
    The first and easiest task
    at least to prove that the Cossacks are the successors and descendants of the Horde. Documents, archeology, genetics. And, then, anyone can mock the sources of the “officials” and provide as an alternative all sorts of their own, and not very, “inventions and nonsense” about “similarity”


    So, there is no direct evidence that the Horde - Mongols - are connected with the real Mongols who live in Mongolia. There are just no genetics, no traces of Mongolian influence on Russian culture.
    Archeology... well, well. Mongolian "fortifications" discovered on the territory of Rus'? By the way, what architectural style did the Mongols prefer when they founded their cities? "Mongolian Gothic" or "Mongolian Baroque"? It would be interesting to look at the brick multi-story yurts, but the heart senses that it is not fate.
    And there is no need to rub in that the “Mongols” of the Horde did not live permanently in Rus'. This is a general rule for all conquerors, from Alexander the Great to the British colonialists: to create their permanent settlements on the territory of the conquered countries and maintain their garrisons.
    By the way, according to the official version, the “Tatar-Mongols” did the same thing... in the Volga region, Iran, China (they even moved their capital to Beijing). And only Rus' is for some reason an exception; for some reason, archaeologists did not find the Mongolian “Sarai” in our country, nor did they find genetic traces or anything Mongolian at all.

    It's one of two things:
    1. There were Horde settlements, as well as “contacts of the fourth type,” but it is impossible to identify them, since the Horde were in no way different from the Russians at all.
    2. The Horde did not consider it necessary to create their own settlements and maintain their garrisons in Rus', since relationships (starting from some time ago) were built not on the classic “conquerors-conquered” model, but on a warmer and more trusting basis, a kind of symbiosis. Rus' provided the Horde with the necessary resources, and the Horde defended Rus' from external enemies and ensured its territorial integrity, suppressing separatism (not everyone liked the latter, hence the “atrocities of the Horde” in some chronicles.

    The word "Cossack" is supposedly of Tatar origin. It is not surprising if the Cossacks are descended from the “Tatars”.
    One of the first mentions of the Cossacks is in sources dedicated to the “Mamaev’s Massacre”. Cossacks allegedly participated in the Battle of Kulikovo (probably on both sides).
    Speaking of Mamai... is it like a purely Mongolian name? Oh well.
    I’ve been to Mongolia more than once, but I haven’t met the “Mamaevs”. As well as "Batyev". Chingis (Tengiz) - there are, but "Mamaev" - alas...
    The name "Mamai", however, can be found. One of Bogdan Khmelnitsky’s closest associates was called Mamai. Who knows, maybe a direct descendant of that same one... “the deck is shuffled in a weird way,” as you know.

    And the similarity of the Cossacks with the “Tatars” in their habits is noticeable. The Cossacks are more similar to the Horde than the modern, completely peaceful, Mongolian shepherds.

    From former times, the Cossacks retained some arrogance towards “simple men”, the idea of ​​themselves as some kind of “special people”, a special love of freedom (all riots in our country are Cossack, not peasant. S. Razin, K. Bulavin, E. Pugachev - the essence of the Cossacks), the desire to have some kind of autonomy or even complete sovereignty. The last attempts go back to the 20th century. Times of Civil War and even WWII (Krasnov, Ataman Semenov). So if the Verkhmat or the Kwantung Army had been more successful, the Cossack “Hordes” might have existed in our time.
  83. Seal Rank
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    26 January 2023 09: 51
    Quote: Ulan.1812
    The Horde really had different arrows. Simple-cuts, light for further shooting, heavy for shooting at warriors in armor. They are found different.

  84. Illanatol Rank
    Illanatol
    +2
    26 January 2023 10: 07
    Quote: Keer
    I’ll tell you a secret: physics is also a descriptive science, it does not deal with the “essence of things” laughing, and natural philosophy is a term. Newton's work is full of useful physics, diffusers, and geometry, if you remember, of course. Have you read it? So it is called the mat principles of nat philosophy, that is, physics.


    Physics is not a descriptive science; it cannot be reduced only to observations. As it should be in real science, it is based on empirics, the experimental search for truth.
    It was Aristotle who could derive his maxims purely speculatively, but real scientists, in order to obtain crumbs of new knowledge, sometimes have to build a LHC or spend colossal amounts of money on something else.
    Aristotle, according to a historical anecdote, could declare that “a fly has four legs, you cannot touch it” and then many believed in it, blindly following this authority. It's customary for real scientists to check everything, so it wouldn't work for them.
    And after Newton, physics was already called physics. After all, he was also keen on experiments and it is unlikely that he limited himself to one apple in order to deduce the “law of universal gravitation”.

    By the way, this venerable sir is the real father of the “New Chronology”. It was he who questioned the works of Scaliger and Petavius ​​and wrote “The Corrected Chronology of the Ancient Kingdoms.”
    As they say, "remember the devil..." laughing
  85. Illanatol Rank
    Illanatol
    +1
    26 January 2023 10: 15
    Quote: Keer
    map, I think it’s in the textbook for the eighth or seventh grade, I don’t remember, it was years ago.


    I'm too old to look at textbooks. And that the “Mongols” walked through Siberia and included the Siberian peoples living in the taiga, I learned from a textbook for humanitarian universities, published in Soviet times.
    There, by the way, it was also said that the Siberian peoples greatly strengthened the Horde, since the taiga aborigines had better bows than the Mongol ones (which is quite similar to the truth).
    Well, what can you do if even “official historians” have seven Fridays a week?
    1. Keer Rank
      Keer
      0
      26 January 2023 15: 42
      I learned it from a textbook for humanitarian universities, published in Soviet times.
      You are confusing something. Probably with the ancient Turks and the formation of the Turkic Khaganate.

      I'm too old to look at textbooks
      Oh, just take a look. And then maybe your rejection of history was based on false introductory laughing

      Physics is not a descriptive science; it is not limited to observations.
      You are confusing the concepts of describe and observe. The rest of the maxim in this regard becomes meaningless
      . After all, he was also keen on experiments and it is unlikely that he limited himself to one apple in order to deduce the “law of universal gravitation”
      and you read him yourself, then you will find out how he deduced this law, instead of philosophizing, guessing and making alternatives.
    2. Keer Rank
      Keer
      +1
      26 January 2023 15: 52
      So, there is no direct evidence that the Horde - Mongols, are connected with the real Mongols, that they live in Mongolia
      I asked you to provide evidence that the Cossacks and their institutions are the successors of the Horde and the Horde. And you are again criticizing the official version, or what you consider to be such. Some kind of kindergarten: “Oh, here’s Vasya, he doesn’t wash his hands at all!” about “habits” It’s a bit thin for proof.
  86. Seal Rank
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    26 January 2023 10: 57
    Quote: Keer
    Realist of parallel reality.
    Are you speaking with knowledge of the matter, as a specialist in parallel realities?
  87. Seal Rank
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    26 January 2023 11: 01
    Quote: Keer
    Only alternativeists care about this.
    The alternatives are those who brazenly ruled our ancestors, who believed that the Mongols joined the Tatars only when they were expelled from China.


    1. Keer Rank
      Keer
      0
      26 January 2023 16: 11
      Do you yourself read what you post? "(Genghis Khan) Conquered China and subjected all of Tartary to his yoke. (later) In 1386," etc. Further in the text Having been expelled from China, (indeed, some of the Mongols at the end of the 14th century left China when the Ming overthrew the Yuan ), and they, together with the Tatar hordes (who had all already been conquered by the Mongols) moved to Rus'. And there was no one they “joined” with.
      This is fragmentary, without indicating sources, clearly indicating the subordination of the Tatars to the Mongols at the time of the invasion of Rus', but in no way an alternative presentation of history.
  88. Seal Rank
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    26 January 2023 11: 05
    Quote: Keer
    It’s possible to get by, but it will require such a multiplication of entities
    On the contrary, it will sharply reduce a fair number of unnecessary entities.
    However, as I see it, are you trying on yourself for the role of some kind of “judge”?
    Let me remind you from Felix Krivin.

    Midas court

    - Nonsense, sir! - Midas noted, having listened to Apollo’s play.

    For this, according to his mind, he got donkey ears.

    Excellent ears, luxurious ears, a treasure for a music lover! Now Midas will not let either Apollo or Pan go down.

    Pan tries, Pan pours in, forests and valleys bring joy. But…

    - Nonsense, sir! - Midas drops, lazily spinning his ears.

    Apollo thunders, taking away all the souls in the world. But…

    - Nonsense, sir! - Midas drops, hanging donkey ears.
    1. Keer Rank
      Keer
      0
      26 January 2023 16: 24
      You imagine yourself as Apollo, but you think the opuses of alternative artists
      “they take away all the souls”? laughing
  89. The comment was deleted.
    1. The comment was deleted.
  90. Seal Rank
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    31 January 2023 13: 37
    Quote: Keer
    Hoyat, just consider John not the Terrible, but the brother of Peter the Great. No, really - pipes. This you can consider anyone, anyone. I'm not that much of a nihilist
    So you deny the existence of these two Johns? So if you deny, then it turns out that you are the main nihilist hi
  91. Seal Rank
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    31 January 2023 13: 42
    Quote: Keer
    Do you imagine yourself as Apollo?
    Not yourself. I showed you who. I'll say it again.
    Our entire history is a fiction that everyone agrees with.
    Вольтер

    There are many pages in the history of any nation that would be magnificent if they were true.
    D. Didro

    If you remove all the lies from history, this does not mean at all that only the truth will remain - as a result, there may be nothing left at all.
    Stanislav E. Lec

    The information that the ancients did not have was very extensive.
    Mark Twain

    God cannot change the past, but historians can. And it must be precisely because they sometimes provide this service that God tolerates their existence.
    Samuel Butler

    History has been rewritten to such a state that even historians themselves are at a loss about what the word “history” means.
    David Bowie

    History has the same relation to truth as theology has to faith, namely, nothing.
    Robert Heinlein

    Perhaps a more accurate description of what never happened is the historian's inalienable privilege and specialty.
    Oscar Wilde

    History is the quintessence of gossip.
    Thomas Carlyle

    History is just a fable accepted by everyone.
    B. Fontenel

    Our only duty to history is to constantly rewrite it.
    Oscar Wilde

    In the vast expanses of the ocean of slander called “history”, one wave, even a large one, does not have much significance.
    Arnold Matthew

    History is like meat pate: it’s better not to look closely at how it’s prepared.
    Aldous Huxley

    History is the product of the secretions of the glands of a million historians.
    John Steinbeck

    Anyone who knows history well is not tempted by the occupation of a historiographer.
    Stanislav Jerzy Lec

    God cannot change the past, but historians can. And it must be precisely because they sometimes provide this service that God tolerates their existence.
    Samuel Butler

    Those who make history often at the same time fake it.
    Weslav Brudzinsky

    History is too serious a matter to be left to historians.
    Ian McLeod

    The story begins when nothing is impossible to verify.
    Vyacheslav Verkhovsky

    Everything is in the hands of the Lord, and only History has escaped His control.
    Zbigniew Hedgehog

    History does not repeat itself - historians simply repeat each other.
    Clement F. Rogers

    No one has changed the history of mankind like historians.
    E. Mackenzie
    1. Keer Rank
      Keer
      0
      3 February 2023 00: 46
      You screwed up there with the post of the book from 1799, comment on this, and don’t bring a blizzard about the Apollos of the Belvedcre laughing, five Ivans, and the number of Kublai Marines.
  92. Seal Rank
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    3 February 2023 10: 37
    Quote: Keer
    You screwed up there with the 1799 book post, comment on this,
    What exactly should you comment on? Please clarify what exactly you didn’t like about the book from 1799?
    And so your question is from the series: “Have you already stopped drinking buckets of champagne in the morning”?
    five Ivanovs
    In fact, according to the official version of history, there were even six of them. The sixth is Ivan Antonovich.
    Yes, the number of Khubilai's marines.
    God bless you, you are confusing me with someone. I gave you information that Japan is already abandoning the version with divine wind. About the numbers??? Yes, Khubilai’s marines are exactly the same reality as the Eskimo camel cavalry. hi
    What is the size of the Eskimo camel cavalry?
    1. Keer Rank
      Keer
      0
      4 February 2023 04: 22
      Please clarify what exactly you didn’t like about the book from 1799?
      I liked everything in the book, I didn’t like your inability to read what was written there, except for that piece of a sentence that someone underlined with a red pencil laughing
  93. Seal Rank
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    6 February 2023 14: 13
    Quote: Keer
    except for that piece of sentence that someone underlined with a red pencil

    What's the problem ? In my opinion, the text of this book very well shows the dynamics of changes in the views of our ancestors on “those events”.
    1) In the birch bark letters there is not a hint at all about the Tatars, Mongols, Yoke and the like.
    2) The Approved Charter of 1613 already talks about Batu and Berke, but does not talk about the Tatars, much less the Mongols.
    3) In his Synopsis, Gisel in the second half of the 17th century already speaks of Batu and the Tatars.
    4) In the book of 1799, “Mongols” cautiously appear. But for now they are still like refugees from the borders of China, who joined, so to speak, the Tatars in Rus' after the flight of these Mongols from China.
    5) In the 1830s, the Mongols (in terms of coming to Rus' and conquering Rus') were already on a par with the Tatars, and soon they generally took first place.
    1. Keer Rank
      Keer
      0
      6 February 2023 23: 15
      In the 1799 book, "Mongols" appear cautiously. But for now they are still like refugees from the borders of China, who joined, so to speak, the Tatars in Rus' after the flight of these Mongols from China.
      The book literally says the following:
      "(Genghis Khan) Conquered China and subjected all of Tartary to his yoke. (later) In 1368," etc. Further in the text Having been expelled from China, (indeed, some of the Mongols at the end of the 14th century left China when the Ming overthrew the Yuan , just in 1368, hence this date, obviously, got stuck in), and they, together with the Tatar hordes (who had all already been conquered by the Mongols) moved to Rus' and “conquered Russia and other European regions”
      nothing, they “carefully do not appear there, like some kind of refugees,” but it is directly written that in a certain period before 1368, all of Tataria and, accordingly, the Tatars who inhabited it, were subjugated by the Mongol Genghis Khan. Hence the conclusion is that you cannot read what you yourself post.
  94. Seal Rank
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    7 February 2023 16: 12
    This is yours
    Quote: Keer
    Hence the conclusion is that you cannot read what you yourself post.
    turn to yourself.
    1. Keer Rank
      Keer
      0
      9 February 2023 04: 52
      Indeed, in Russian it is written that in 1368 the Mongols were expelled from China, before that in the same paragraph it was written (obviously before 1368) that Genghis Khan conquered all the Tatars, when it was not written. After that, according to the text, in the same place, that the Tatars
      under the leadership of the Mongols, they conquered Rus' (before that, these Tatars were conquered by the Mongol Ching Khan, who “put his yoke on them”)
      Those. in Russian: invasion of the Tatars conquered by the Mongols
      happened in Rus'. Before that, there were no invasions and devastation from the Tatars themselves, according to this book. (The year 1368 was taken, in fact
      by chance, sailing from the date of the change from the Mongol Yuan Dynasty to the Ming Dynasty.)
      Therefore, my conclusion that you cannot read what you yourself posted remains valid. (At least you don’t read what someone didn’t underline with a red pencil). By the way, I won’t parse your rubbish from the printscreen anymore. Forgive me as a human being, I didn’t sign up to break my eyes.
    2. Keer Rank
      Keer
      0
      9 February 2023 05: 15
      In the sense of posting documents in a digestible form. Or ask the person who gives you advantages to do it.
  95. Seal Rank
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    9 February 2023 13: 43
    Quote: Keer
    By the way, I won’t parse your rubbish from the printscreen anymore

    As I understand it, your principles don’t allow you to simply search the Internet and read this book, right? Or education?
    In Russian it is written that many noble Tatars considered Genghis Khan their ancestor.
    The Tatars considered their Tatar ancestor some Tatar Genghis Khan. What's wrong ?
    Before that, there were no invasions and devastation from the Tatars themselves, according to this book.
    Is it?



    1. Keer Rank
      Keer
      0
      9 February 2023 23: 41
      Read what you post. Here is the text from the book:
      "Mongolian peoples.
      Initially, the Mongolian people were very ancient... and were called by the name Mogul. He roamed on both sides of the mountains that separated Dauria (Transbaikalia and modern Mongolia) and Chinese Mongolia (Inner Mongolia) and on the southern Sayan Mountains (Tuva Basin). )...(.
      Much earlier than Genghis, who was born in the 12th century, they were divided into three nations.)...(
      But Genghis Khan united them under his power, leaving appanage princes in his possessions. He conquered China and subjected all of Tataria to his yoke.. (later) In 1368, being expelled from China, (indeed, some of the Mongols left China at the end of the 14th century when the Ming overthrew the Yuan), and they, together with the Tatar hordes, (who everyone had already been conquered by the Mongols) moved to Rus'. And they caused her ruin.
      Another passage: “Khan Genghis conquered almost all the hordes and through the Tatar Kingdom, which he owned from 1204 to 29, carried out his conquests near the Caspian Sea, the Caucasus, and all the way to the Black Sea.) .. (After the death of Genghis they divided his kingdom" and etc.
      Everything is going well: Jebe’s raid on Kalka under Genghis, and the defeat of Rus' by his grandson Batu Khan.
      Why did you decide that Batu “considered” himself a descendant of Genghis and was a Tatar? but in fact he was not his grandson and a Mongol, only God knows. These ideas of yours do not come from the text of the book...
      1. Keer Rank
        Keer
        0
        10 February 2023 02: 24
        And even the direction of Batu’s attack on Rus' from the Caspian Sea and the Eastern Caucasus is clearly visible from the text. But there is no trace of galloping across the Siberian steppes from Khingan to Ryazan. The year 1368, as I already wrote, was taken from the date of the fall of the Mongol Yuan dynasty in China. There were no initial Mongol invasions of Rus' at this time. If you throw out this ridiculous fluctuation, then everything falls into place. The Mongol Khan Genghis conquered China and the Turkic peoples, as far as the Black Sea, in the period before 1229, (actually before 1223), after which his grandson Batu Khan invaded Rus', burned Ryazan, etc. in 1237.
        1. Seal Rank
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          13 February 2023 11: 57
          Quote: Keer
          The year 1368, as I already wrote, was taken from the date of the fall of the Mongol Yuan dynasty in China.
          Oh, my God, how you dashingly deal with the text of 1799. This means that if you think that he “clung to” - everyone should fall on their faces and praise you for admonishing them laughing
          Quote: Keer
          There were no initial Mongol invasions of Rus' at this time.
          I don’t understand this at all? What "at this time"? In 1799??
          Quote: Keer
          If you throw out this ridiculous fluctuation, then everything falls into place.
          Let's better throw out all the absurdities of the version you support about the Mongol conquest of half the world, first of all this version itself, huh? And everything will fall into place much better hi
          Quote: Keer
          burned Ryazan, etc. in 1237.
          What was there to burn there? Everything was burned to the so-called "Mongols". And the people were taken away.
          Yes, they say that after some period they were released and the Ryazan residents began to return. But no one says how many Ryazan residents returned. Did the people of Ryazan begin to rebuild their city on the same basis or chose something else? Well, of course, no one has ever studied the question, how long does it take, in principle, to build a city from scratch?



          There is no need to produce entities beyond what is necessary.
          1. Keer Rank
            Keer
            0
            14 February 2023 00: 14
            There is no need to produce entities beyond what is necessary.
            That's it, and you also need to remember that you yourself posted, supposedly in support of your version, and you posted the following:. "Mongolian peoples.
            Initially, the Mongolian people were very ancient... and were called by the name Mogul. Roamed on both sides of the mountains that separated Dauria and Chinese Mongolia and in the southern Sayan Mountains
            Much earlier than Genghis, who was born in the 12th century, they were divided into three nations.)...(
            But Genghis Khan united them under his power, leaving appanage princes in his possessions. He conquered China and subjected all of Tataria to his yoke.. (later) In 1368, being expelled from China, they, together with the Tatar hordes, moved to Rus'. And they caused her ruin.
            Another passage: “Khan Genghis conquered almost all the hordes and through the Tatar Kingdom, which he owned from 1204 to 29, carried out his conquests near the Caspian Sea, the Caucasus, and all the way to the Black Sea.) .. (After the death of Genghis they divided his kingdom" and etc.
            This is what you yourself posted.
            The fact that you yourself are not able to read and comment on this leads me to the conclusion that this is not because you cannot read, but because the text you yourself quoted is in conflict with your perception reality. And this is a problem in the context of medicine, and I am not a doctor.
  96. Seal Rank
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    14 February 2023 11: 53
    Quote: Ulan.1812
    Really? In fact, these are Siberian breeds of horses. And among them are very hardy and tall too. I don’t understand why everyone rested on modern Mongolia. There were different breeds of horses in the Horde.
    In fact, the Mongolian horse breed is a unique breed even in comparison with the Yakut horse breed.
    Quote: Ulan.1812
    I don’t understand why everyone is stuck on modern Mongolia.
    Because it is believed that “the same Mongols who conquered...” originally lived in Mongolia. Namely, Mongolia has a unique sharply continental climate. Well, excuse me that nature did it this way. request
    Mongolia: climate and its features
    This place is called the "land of blue skies" as it is sunny most of the year. Located in the temperate climate zone, Mongolia has a sharply continental climate. This means that it is characterized by sharp changes in temperature and low amounts of precipitation. Cold, but almost snowless winter (hello to the Mongolian horses, who get grass from under the snow, which is almost non-existent in Mongolia, and if it does fall, it is light, fluffy, 3-5 centimeters high, on which there is no ice - my footnote) in Mongolia (temperatures can drop to -45˚С) gives way to spring with its strong gusts of wind, sometimes reaching hurricane force, and then warm and sunny summer. This country is often the site of sandstorms. If we briefly describe the climate of Mongolia, it is enough to mention large temperature fluctuations even within a day. There are harsh winters, hot summers and increased dry air. The coldest month is January, the warmest is June. -
    Why is there such a climate in Mongolia? Sudden temperature changes, dry air and a large number of sunny days make this place special. We can draw a conclusion about the reasons for the sharp continental climate of Mongolia: remoteness from the seas; obstacles to the flow of moist air currents from the oceans are the mountain ranges that surround the country; the formation of high pressure in combination with low temperature in winter. Such sharp temperature fluctuations and low rainfall make this country special.


    Quote: Ulan.1812
    There were different breeds of horses in the Horde. And among them they are very hardy and tall too.

    Perhaps they were in the Horde. And they probably even were. But what do the Mongols have to do with it?
    And in general, I would really like to see how a “13th century Mongol” with a height of about 125-135 centimeters jumps onto a tall horse.
    Quote: Ulan.1812
    The main striking force of the Horde army was the heavily armed, armored cavalry.

    And even in heavy combat armor. Yes, even without armor, but in a sheepskin coat.
    Excuse me, did they take stools with them? hi
  97. Seal Rank
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    14 February 2023 12: 21
    Quote: Keer
    Another passage: “Khan Genghis conquered almost all the hordes and through the Tatar Kingdom, which he owned from 1204 to 29, carried out his conquests near the Caspian Sea, the Caucasus, and all the way to the Black Sea.) .. (After the death of Genghis they divided his kingdom" and etc.
    This is what you yourself posted.
    The fact that you yourself are not able to read and comment on this leads me to the conclusion that this is not because you cannot read, but because the text you yourself quoted is in conflict with your perception reality. And this is a problem in the context of medicine, and I am not a doctor.

    The fact that this is written in the book of 1799 is clear evidence that the version of the Mongols was just beginning to take root in the minds of our intelligentsia at the end of the 18th century. They (the book’s writing team) themselves were confused about where to put these “Mongols.” That is, they still knew that there were no Mongols in Rus', but they could no longer ignore the general European opinion that there was Genghis Khan, who “was a Mongol” and who conquered almost all of Asia.
    Again.
    In birch bark documents that date back to the 10th-14th centuries there is nothing about the Mongols, Tatars, or Baskaks.
    In the Approved Charter of 1613, Batu and Berke appear, but as yet without indicating their nationality. And if Tatars are subsequently found in the text of the historical preface to the Approved Charter, then the Mongols are not there yet.
    Innocent Gisel, who took courses in history, theology and jurisprudence at the Lviv Jesuit College, in his Synopsis, which since its publication has become the main history textbook for Russia, has already written beautifully about the Tatar invasion. But the Mongols are not there yet.
    Tatishchev (although it is unknown whether the printed version published on behalf of Tatishchev coincides with his manuscripts) already clearly writes that “Batu’s Tatars”, but there are still no Mongols.
    Here are our authors of the book, published in 1799, and they were still confused about where to put the “Mongols”. hi
    1. Keer Rank
      Keer
      0
      14 February 2023 23: 50
      . In birch bark documents that date back to the 10th-14th centuries there is nothing about the Mongols, Tatars, or Baskaks.
      The birch bark documents also contain nothing about the Novgorod veche, for example, or about Prince Alexander. These certificates are everyday and official letters.
      Based on the announcements of the housing office, at my entrance, and the transcript of notes from junior high school students with the content: “Vova-”, using your “method” we can conclude that the Hubble telescope does not exist, just like the Strategic Missile Forces of the Russian Federation, since they are in these written sources are not mentioned. If we are to be particularly radical, we can admit that the Russian Federation itself does not exist, since the so-called Russians use Greek and Phoenician letters in their so-called writing.
      .The fact that it is written like this in the book of 1799 is clear evidence of that
      Yes, this is no evidence of anything other than the fixation of the authors’ gaze. There is no need to mix unsubstantiated ideas into this.
    2. Keer Rank
      Keer
      0
      15 February 2023 00: 20
      Besides, you may have forgotten this. And I, in principle, explained why this could happen, you posted literally the following about the text of this ill-fated book of 1799:
      .those who brazenly ruled our ancestors, who believed that the Mongols joined the Tatars only when they were expelled from China.
      exposing exactly its text as some kind of proof of this message of yours, however, not the entire text, but some random underlinings of it.
    3. Keer Rank
      Keer
      0
      15 February 2023 00: 50
      .Batu and Berke appear in the approved Charter of 1613, but as yet without indicating their nationality
      and in the Sofia chronicle of the 15th century there is a Legend about the murder in the Horde of Prince Mikhail of Chernigov and his boyar Theodore, events of the 13th century, and Batu Khan is completely present there. I understand that for the alternativeists, that the 17th century, that the 15th are all the same, that it is Uyghur, - the same as the old Mongolian letter. In a snowstorm you won't see milestones. laughing
  98. Keer Rank
    Keer
    0
    15 February 2023 01: 10
    And, concluding posting on this thread, I want to say the following: All lovers of the malicious “rigging of human history” or its writing from scratch over a hundred or two years through the efforts of the evil agents of the pope, did not study well at school, otherwise they would have figured out what kind of resource there is for this needed. In truth, with such a resource, Yshbara-kokhan would have reached Mars.

    And if we take even the fee from the sale of Fomenkovism with his comrades as income, then we must admit the complete financial stupidity of the popes. at such and such expenses.laughing
    Further, due to the fact that notifications about replies do not work, I propose to communicate on the thread about the poor ancient Turks, may its author forgive me.
  99. Seal Rank
    Seal
    +1
    15 February 2023 12: 20
    Quote: Keer
    The birch bark documents also contain nothing about the Novgorod veche, for example, or about Prince Alexander. These certificates are everyday and official letters.
    Based on the announcements of the housing office, at my entrance, and the transcript of notes from junior high school students with the content: “Vova-”, using your “method” we can conclude that the Hubble telescope does not exist, just like the Strategic Missile Forces of the Russian Federation, since they are in these written sources are not mentioned.
    I don’t know what is written in your entrance, but I admit that everything is written. Especially near your door. Apparently the neighbors were fed up. What did you get - can you guess?
    About housing office advertisements. You can learn a lot of information from housing office advertisements.
    Firstly, that there were the housing offices themselves and there were houses that the housing offices managed.
    Secondly, that housing offices had directors (in relation to Moscow - directors of the State Budgetary Institution "Zhilischnik of such and such a district of Moscow)
    Thirdly, you can find out that housing offices collected money from people
    Fourthly, you can find out that there were many people who did not pay money at all or paid very irregularly.
    The same applies to the birch bark letters, from which we learned:
    - about the cost of certain things and pets (Certificate No. 97, where the addressee is Yuri, called Mr. - “Mr. Yuri is better than Ortmak and Deitsa. Sell rye at ...)
    - learned the names of people who lived in “those times.”
    - from birch bark letters you can even learn about the beginning of wars, about which there is nothing at all in the chronicles. See Certificate No. 590.
    The first birch bark letter in the city was found in 1951, during excavations on Dmitrovskaya Street. A peculiar note was found in a gap between the flooring blocks on the pavement, dating back to the 14th century. Scientists have found a dense scroll made of birch bark, reminiscent of a fisherman's float. Fortunately, a fragment of coherent text on it has been preserved. It listed the villages that paid taxes to a certain Roma.
    Letter No. 876 contains a warning that there will be renovations on the square (hello to your housing office, which I hope also warns you about upcoming renovations?)
    In general, a lot of interesting things can be learned from birch bark documents. But I repeat, in the birch bark documents there is not even a hint of the Tatar-Mongol invasion of Rus'.
  100. Seal Rank
    Seal
    +1
    15 February 2023 13: 24
    Quote: Keer
    and in the Sofia Chronicle of the 15th century there is a Legend about the murder in the Horde of Prince Mikhail of Chernigov and his boyar Theodore, events of the 13th century,

    I have already cited a codicological analysis of the Laurentian Chronicle, carried out by the completely official historian G.M. Prokhorov. , published by the Institute of Russian Literature (Pushkin House) RAS
    Faculty of History of St. Petersburg State University. Prokhorov discovered and proved that all information about the Tatar invasion in the Laurentian Chronicle is a later insertion.
    We read the work of G.M. Prokhorov "Ancient Russian chronicles. A look into the unique"
    page 252 "
    ... Shakhmatov’s idea of ​​the “Sofia vremennik” that he conceives depends on his idea of ​​the “corpus” that he conceives, which lies at the foundation of the 1st Sofia and Novgorod 4th le-
    topis" (which he long called the "Novgorod vault of 1448"). But such a code, “the ancestor of the 1st Sofia and 4th Novgorod chronicles,”1 never existed at all: after all, we now know collections of chronicle news of the so-called. “Karamzin Manuscript”, which Shakhmatov, without paying due attention to them, mistakenly considered to be halves of one chronicle cut along the length, which in different ways served as “building material” during creation - and far from being created at the same time! - these really vaults, the 1st Sofia and 4th Novgorod chronicles. In fact, the 1st Novgorod, the local Novgorod chronicle, is (separately!) one of the sources of both the 1st Sophia and the 4th Novgorod - the Vladimir-Moscow and Novgorod all-Russian chronicle collections. What should we think now about the “Sofia Temporary”? Only that it is the same chimera as the “Novgorod Vault of 1448” - one of a number of chimerical fruits of Chess’s efforts to restore the “vaults”.
    A. A. Shakhmatov needs this chimera, it turns out further, not in itself, but as a tool for creating the next, already third level of chimera - for the “restoration” of the chronicle “corpus” that preceded the “Tale of Bygone Years”. “It’s true,” he writes, “this arch has not reached us, but we saw that it was being restored...”

    Shakhmatov, according to Prokhorov, did what he wanted with the dating.
    Influenced by a letter to him from A.V. Markov dated December 15, 1911, with an explanation of this, A.A. Shakhmatov himself recognized “the dating of the arch of 1448 is incorrect.”4 And then the common conceivable source of Sofia 1st and Novgorod 4 he dated the chronicles to 1424. But now, in general, we no longer believe in the existence of the source code of the 1st Sofia and Novgorod 4th chronicles, in which supposedly “borrowings from the Sofia vremennik stand out clearly,” as well as the “Sofia” itself
    "temporary".

    In general, chimeras, chimeras, just chimeras everywhere.
    We read about this Mikhail.
    “And at the time when the blessed Prince Mikhail was in Chernigov, God, seeing how many were deceived by the glory of this world, sent grace and the gift of the holy spirit to him, and put in his heart the idea of ​​​​going to the king and exposing his deceit, seducing Christian. Inflamed with the grace of God, blessed Prince Mikhail decided to go to Batu. And, having arrived to his spiritual father, he told him, saying:
    - I want to go to Batu.
    And the spiritual father answered him:
    “Many who went fulfilled the will of the filthy, were seduced by the glory of this world - they passed through the fire, and bowed to the bush and idols, and destroyed their souls. But you, Michael, if you want to go, don’t do this: don’t go through the fire, don’t worship the bush or their idols, don’t take their food or drink into your mouth. Stand firmly for the Christian faith, since it is not appropriate for Christians to worship anything created, but only the Lord God Jesus Christ.
    Mikhail answered him:

    “According to your prayer, father, as God wills, so it will be.” I would like to shed my blood for Christ and for the Christian faith.

    Theodore said the same thing. And the spiritual father said:

    “You will be new holy martyrs in this century to strengthen the spirit of others if you do this.”

    That is, according to the legend, Prince Mikhail and his boyar Fyodor decided in advance to die and for this purpose went to the Horde.
    And he died. Actually, because of stupidity. In conditions when epidemic after epidemic roams the lands, the procedure of passing through fire before getting to someone who values ​​​​their health is an ordinary sanitary procedure. Why “Mikhail” and “Fedor” were so stubborn is unclear. Moreover, there were many filthy Christians in the king’s tent. This means that those Christians who were in the tent got there by calmly passing through the cleansing fire.
    Since the canonization of Michael at the all-Russian level occurred during the reign of Ivan the Terrible, in 1578, it should be assumed that their Life was compiled at the same time. Shortly before canonization. After which it scattered throughout the chronicles.