The myth of the Tatar-Mongol yoke

Siege of Moscow by Tokhtamysh. facial vault

"Mongols from Mongolia"

The hordes of Batu attacked the Polovtsians, Volga Bulgaria and Rus'. They defeated and conquered the Polovtsian steppe, the Volgars-Bulgars (future Kazan Tatars) and the fragmented Russian principalities. The terrible "Mongol-Tatar yoke" began. This is the official version that has been promoted in Russia since the time of Karamzin.

True, there are many facts that do not fit into this version. The fake about "Mongols from Mongolia" was launched by the papal envoy Plano Carpini and other agents of the Vatican.

Firstly, there were no "Mongols" in Rus'. There were battles, destroyed cities. But there were no Mongols. Archeology shows that Caucasians - representatives of the white race - fought on both sides. There were no hordes of Mongols-Mongoloids in Europe. This is shown by modern genetic studies. Attempts to find "Mongoloidness" in Russians ended in complete failure.

Although the centuries-old stay of a large number of "Mongols" in the Golden Horde, given the dominance of racial characteristics (in a simple way: a Russian mother and a Mongol father will have children with a predominance of Mongoloid racial characteristics), should have left corresponding racial traces. But they are not! That is, there were no "Mongolian" hordes in Eastern Europe!

Secondly, the then Mongols were at a low level of spiritual and material development - shepherds, cattle breeders and hunters. Approximately, like the Indians of the tribes of North America. Accordingly, a handful of shepherd-hunters simply could not create an invincible army, arm it and crush the developed, strong neighboring kingdoms. Create the greatest Eurasian empire. For this, an appropriate level of development was needed.

enough to know history: Assyria, Babylon, the Persian Empire, the Empire of Alexander the Great or the Roman Empire had a correspondingly high level of development, economy, made revolutions in military affairs (for example, the Macedonian phalanx or the Roman legion).

Nothing has changed in the new history. Napoleon crushed almost all of Europe. The Second and Third Reichs were the leading economies in Europe. Hitler got all the resources of Europe. The Soviet superpower is the second economy in the world. The only modern superpower is the United States, the world's first economy, advanced technologies, including military ones.

That is, to create a great empire, an appropriate spiritual, organizational, material, economic, and technological potential is required. The Mongolian shepherds did not have it. Like the Indians of North America, otherwise they would have easily swept away the first bunch of European slave-pirates. A handful of shepherds and hunters could not conquer huge China or Rus', even fragmented. Create a huge and developed empire with dozens of city-cities.

White (Golden) Horde-Rod

This is already enough to understand that there were no Mongol-Tatars in Rus'. They were invented to distort, cut off the true multi-thousand-year history of Rus'-Russia. In fact, Rus' was the direct heir to the ancient northern civilization - the legendary Hyperborea, the kingdom of the Aryans-Rus and Great Scythia.

Hyperborea-Aryans-Scythians-Russ lived on our land, in the north of Eurasia since ancient times. From Central Europe, the Balkans and the Carpathians in the west to the borders of China and Japan in the east. Great, advanced civilization. With a powerful spiritual tradition, material culture. The clans of the Rus lived in present-day Germany and Austria (during the onslaught to the East, they were crushed by Catholic Rome - "Slavic Atlantis" in Central Europe). Rus-Russia was created by the Russ families who lived in Novgorod, Kyiv, Chernigov, Smolensk and Suzdal.

There was a huge Scythian-Siberian world of pagan Rus. Known in the annals as "filthy", that is, not Christians. For thousands of years they led a semi-nomadic and at the same time agricultural way of life. It was they who conquered China, Central Asia, conquered the Bulgars (Tatars-Volgars), defeated and included the Polovtsians (also the heirs of Scythia - Caucasians, the closest relatives of the Rus from Kyiv or Chernigov) and invaded the Russian principalities.

The Horde is Rod, Rada. Tumen - darkness, ten thousand warriors. Khan - kokhan, kohan, beloved, respected. This word has been known in Rus' since the time of the Khazaria. So, Prince Vladimir the Baptist was called a kagan. The notorious "Mongols" is a nickname, "Moguls - powerful, great." The "Moguls" did not bring a single Mongolian word to Rus', did not leave a single Mongoloid skull, no Mongoloid racial signs. Because there were no Mongols in Rus'.

But the battle between Christian Rus and pagan Rus of the Scythian-Siberian world (hence the "animal" style of dress, tradition) was fierce. Russ with Russ always fight very cruelly. Nothing has changed in the modern world: Russians-Great Russians are fighting with Russians-Little Russians.

It was a big mess. The princes-khans fought for power over a vast territory. At the same time, they fraternized, like Yaroslav Nevsky with Batu's son Sartak, gave their daughters in marriage to each other, spoke the same language. Russian squads with the Horde went to Europe and the Caucasus. Then they completely mixed up. The Horde naturally became Russian by the time of Ivan the Terrible, part of the renewed Russian state. The Horde-Tatar princely-boyar families became part of the common elite.

Part of the Rus-Scythians-Horde adopted Orthodoxy, the other settled in the Golden Horde, Central Asia and China, gave the local peoples princely and imperial dynasties, then dissolved in the masses of the Mongoloid population. This example is not the only one. Many thousands of Russians left for China and other Asian countries after the Troubles of 1917, and in the second generation they became Chinese and other Mongoloids.

What Western falsifying historians and their Russian followers call the Great Empire of Genghis Khan was in fact the Russian Horde Empire, the Empire of the Rus. The degradation of the empire and death were associated with Islamization and Arabization. This became the basis for the split, strife and collapse of the great Eurasian empire of the Rus.

But the empire did not die. She was reborn as a phoenix. The merging of European (Vladimir, Moscow, Tver, Novgorod, Ryazan) and Scythian-Siberian Rus made Rus' the Great, a huge empire from ocean to ocean. The Russians again went east and reached the Pacific Ocean, reviving the great northern civilization and tradition.

The myth of the "yoke"

The word "yoke" comes from the Latin "yoke", a collar for working cattle. The word is used in a figurative sense, as an oppressive, enslaving force. The ancient Romans forced enemy troops to pass "under the yoke-yoke", which surrendered. To do this, at the place where the army laid down weapon, stuck two spears and tied the third at the top, across. Under it, one by one, with their commanders at the head, without weapons and military distinctions, all the soldiers passed in front of the victors.

The term "yoke" was introduced by the famous historian and Freemason Nikolai Karamzin. Tsarist and then Soviet historians liked this term, and Russians were inspired that from 1238 to 1480 the people lived under the Tatar yoke.

In fact, these were vassal relations common for the then world. Novgorod the Great generally agreed with the Horde, there were no fights. Moscow, Vladimir, Ryazan, Tver and other princes submitted to the Tsar Khan. Russian squads became part of the unified army of the Golden Horde. And after the pogrom of Batu, the "nasty" came to the Russian principalities until 1380 only at the invitation of our own princes, who tried to get rid of competitors.

Interestingly, the "wild nomad shepherds" immediately created a developed civilization. Although it doesn't just happen. This takes centuries of development. On the Volga, Don and lower reaches of the Dnieper in the XIII-XIV centuries. dozens of cities built by "nomads" were erected. They were made of stone, with luxurious manor palaces and even water pipes. Compared to these cities, Paris and London were dirty villages, which in fact they were. Obviously, many of these settlements were simply rebuilt, they were the legacy of Great Scythia.

Trade routes and communications operated throughout the empire. There was a huge trade turnover between Rus' and the Horde along the Volga route. The caravans of Russian merchants apparently reached India and China. The story of Afanasy Nikitin is a piece of this mosaic.

Speaking of the "yoke", researchers interested in fakes ignore the fact that the Russian ushkuiniki (Novgorodians who followed the traditions of the Rus-Varangians-Vikings) were a thunderstorm for the entire empire on the Volga. River flotilla from the ushki - vessels of the "river-sea" class, sailed along the Frozen Sea (Arctic Ocean), the Baltic, the Volga and the Kama.

The Horde could not cope with them and constantly asked for help from the Grand Dukes of Moscow and Vladimir. The Moscow Grand Dukes had to fight with this freemen with varying degrees of success. Cossacks of the North. The Ushkuiniki usually successfully beat the Moscow governors. But Moscow could arrange an economic blockade of Novgorod and eventually conquered it.

"Tatar-Mongol yoke" - a myth, a fake. There were vassal relations. The Russian princes themselves brought the Horde to Rus', just as they used to lead the Polovtsy, who burned and robbed the cities and villages of competitors. Rus' and the Horde were part of a single empire. Then the Horde decomposed, fell apart, and Moscow Rus became the center of a new revived northern empire.

Comments

[smart ass]

There were no Mongols? You need to ask Klim Zhuky!)

[Monster_Fat]

The myth of the Tatar-Mongol yoke

But what about the amendment to the Constitution prohibiting deviating from the "formed interpretation of historical events"? an amendment that made history not a science, but a religion? You should not build new theories based on new sources or archaeological materials that have been discovered, but strictly follow the classical theory, approved by the "luminaries" and "authorities" of historical science and approved by the authorities. Everything else: no-no! Taboo!

[Blanket]

The official interpretation is already changing. From Putin’s long-standing statement about the existence of Tartaria and the absence of the yoke, the view of the problem of scientists is gradually (replaced) as evidenced by the International Scientific Seminar “From the Empires of Tartaria to the Russian Empire of Peter” was held on November 28-30, 2022 on the basis of Kazan Federal University. It was attended by historians and officials from science.

[alekseykabanets]

Quote: Pike

International scientific seminar "From the empires of Tartaria to the Russian Empire of Peter"

Once I laughed at Ukrainian "historians" like Bebik and their "scientific" seminars, but now it has come to us. I believe that very soon such "historians" will argue with the "Great Ukrainians" about who dug up the Black Sea and from whom the ancient Sumerians descended. When the state cannot boast of success in the economy, medicine, space exploration, etc. it then invents such chimeras about Tartaria and "there were no Mongols" and similar anti-scientific nonsense.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Totally agree with you.

Quote: aleksejkabanets

I believe that very soon such "historians" will argue with the "Great Ukrainians" about who dug up the Black Sea

Well, maybe we will dig up the Azovskoye, and Baikal? And you can also say that our northern rivers initially flowed to China, and we turned them towards us

[Evil eye]

So the "great Mongolian empire" is the same anti-scientific nonsense and the exact same legend about digging up the Black Sea with hands, only with Mongolian ones. The difference is that the myth about Rus'-Horde is patriotic, and the myth about Great Mongolia is exotic, about a distant fairyland. Like the modern myth about Shambhala in Tibet.
Only this is an officially accepted myth. But that doesn't make it a non-myth. 100 years ago, scientists were sure of the existence of the world ether, 200 years ago they recognized the World sweat, 300 years ago - phlogiston ... Science is science because it is able to revise theories, and not just reproduce them.

[Seal]

Moreover, the Mongols themselves did not remember anything. This was explained to them later.

[sadam2]

but I heard that we are not Mongols but Aryans))) somewhere it already happened ... will skulls be measured?

[boriz]

Skulls will not be measured. Times are not right. Now it's all about genetics.
Descendants of the Aryans - haplogroup R1a. And the Germans and Anglo-Saxons have R1b. And that's it. Among the Slavic peoples and some others, R1a is the main haplogroup.
If interested, read books by Anatoly Klyosov about genealogy. Everything is clear there.

[Asiat-s]

Another game with the word "patriotism"? Don't mess around with this word. Did Batu come to Rus'? Came. Did you even reach Italy in Eastern Europe? Reached. And did the Mongols leave traces in the genotype of the Rus and other peoples of Russia? No. Well, turn on the logic ....
After all, how many people have already said, they say that history develops in a spiral, which means that events in one form or another repeat themselves. Here is Batu's campaign - and if you look at it, as at the Special Operation of that time?
"Special Operations on the Territory of Medieval Rus' and Europe"
https://wakeupnow.info/ru/one-menu-facts-opinion/3246-spetsoperatsii-na-territorii-srednevekovoj-rusi-i-evropy

[cast iron]

Traces in the genotype of the Russians come from nowhere. For during the direct conquest of the Russian principalities, the army of the Mongols numbered hardly more than 40000 people. And then there was no need to set up any serious garrisons in each destroyed city. How to take the entire population into slavery. The empire was for that and an empire that collected taxes from the conquered territories. At the same time, the policy towards the local residents was no worse than if the Russian prince ruled the peasants.

[Evil eye]

And how did 40 people conquer all of Rus', how to collect taxes from the destroyed cities, what did these "taxes" look like? This is now a tax - these are ones and zeros that are transferred from one account to another, and in the 000th century all taxes could be exclusively in kind.
Think about such questions and you will understand that the conquest of Rus' by the Mongols is a legend, unless you consider that these were not modern Mongols, but some other people.

[cast iron]

The Mongols conquered Rus' very simply. In two steps. For about 3 years of active hostilities in total. I won't write anything for you here. I would only recommend looking at the REAL historian of middeist Klim Zhukov. He quite simply and intelligibly explains in his videos why Rus', even having rallied with all the principalities (and this was simply impossible at that time), could not oppose ANYTHING to the Mongol army.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote from Evil Eye

So the "great Mongolian empire" is the same anti-scientific nonsense

I won’t even argue :))) Religious issues are sacred to me :))))

[Seal]

Quote from Evil Eye

So the "great Mongolian empire" is the same anti-scientific nonsense and the exact same legend about digging up the Black Sea with hands, only with Mongolian ones. The difference is that the myth about Rus'-Horde is patriotic, and the myth about Great Mongolia is exotic, about a distant fairyland. Like the modern myth about Shambhala in Tibet.

Exactly. In fact, all these terms are name-calling: "alternatives"; "non-alternatives"; "old chronologists"; "new chronology" and so on - it's all just a circus by and large in order to attract as many people as possible, who can sell their art books.
In fact, the struggle of the "old chronologists" with the "new chronologists", or how else can one say the struggle of the admirers of "Great Mongolia" with the admirers of "Great Tataria" - this is the struggle of the Nanai boys. They can no longer live without each other and represent two hands of one body. Well, or they represent two heads of the same Serpent Gorynych, who quarrel with each other and spit at each other.
But by and large, both those (admirers of Great Mongolia) and others (admirers of Great Tataria) are equally "hrenologists". For documentary historical sources, on which they build their castles in the air, neither the first nor the second. Both of them have only one narrative, it is not known when and it is not known by whom it was actually written. Since mankind does not know the handwriting of any of the so-called "ancient authors", including the handwriting of Rashid ad-Din himself.
However, mankind also does not know the handwriting of any of the so-called "ancient authors".

[gsev]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

Well, maybe we will dig up the Azovskoye, and Baikal?

In Russia, it is not prestigious to build and even dig. Most likely, a great centralized bureaucratic state will be created like Hyperborea, which has nourished all tribes and peoples with its power since the Neolithic. A highly developed vertical of power over all fishermen, vagrants and hunters from the Pechora to the Dnieper.

[Evil eye]

So the "great Mongolian empire" is the same anti-scientific nonsense and the exact same legend about digging up the Black Sea with hands, only with Mongolian ones.

[alekseykabanets]

Quote from Evil Eye

So the "great Mongolian empire" is the same anti-scientific nonsense ...

Can you justify this pearl?

[Evil eye]

Easy. Firstly, there is no direct evidence of its existence, except for the established opinion of historians.

Secondly. It is physically impossible to organize such an aggressive campaign, which is attributed to the Mongol. The bandwidth of the communication routes does not allow.

Thirdly, even if by some miracle they went on a campaign and even won, then for the existence of a centralized state, which Mongolia allegedly was, regular movements of troops and fodder are needed, and this is impossible.

By the way, historians usually press on their authority, but the phenomenon of the state is studied not by history, but by another discipline - the theory of state and law. And the state is not just an area on the map to shade, it must have certain attributes.

[kor1vet1974]

Firstly, there is no direct evidence of its existence, except for the established opinion of historians.

And what do you think the opinions of historians are based on?

The bandwidth of the communication routes does not allow.

you mean what ways of communication: railway, water?

regular movements of troops and fodder are needed, and this is impossible.

And what in the area where they went hiking forage, it was not possible to get it?

[Evil eye]

>>And the opinions of historians on what is based, what do you think?

The opinion of modern historians is based on the opinion of historians of the 18th century, and they had a political order. However, they were largely based on the opinion of even older chroniclers, who also had a political order. At the same time, the chronicles themselves, if we consider them, at the very least, primary sources, are interpreted tendentiously.

>> do you mean what message paths

Land horses.

>> And what about in the area where they went hiking fodder, it was not possible to get?

Firstly, in such a volume it is impossible. Secondly, even if it were possible, it would be suitable for a feudal-type state, but we are told that the Mongols had a strict centralization. And for this you need to have a regular army that can be transferred from ulus to ulus in order to crush riots, and for this you must not only have fodder, but also transfer after the army from loyal to disloyal uluses. Only in this way did all centralized states arise.

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote from Evil Eye

but we are told that the Mongols had strict centralization. And for this you need to have a regular army, which can be transferred from ulus to ulus to crush riots

(yawn) or a messenger service so that neighboring uluses crush the rebellious ... Although there is nothing impossible in the regulars either

[Evil eye]

And why should the neighboring uluses spend their people to crush the rebels? In any case, why should one do this without knocking out privileges and land from the khan as gratitude, which would instantly turn a centralized state into a feudal one? Feudalism, after all, arose, why are the Mongols not like people?

Regular troops need regular supplies and lines of communication through which they can be transferred, as well as fortresses that can be used as strongholds, etc. You write articles about the strategy of military operations at sea, Andrei, but for some reason you think that in the 13th century it was possible to fight without logistics. More precisely, with fantastic logistics.

[futurohunter]

What kind of logistics do the Mongols have? Did you transfer diesel fuel with shells? They came, they captured, they took everything they needed (food, fodder, etc.) on the spot. Weapons and armor were repaired on their own, or with the help of local craftsmen. Here, for sure, commentators have no idea how people lived in those days

[Konnick]

for this, fodder must not only have, but also be transferred after the army from loyal uluses to disloyal ones

What forage? Mongolian horses did not eat grain, they were always grazing ..

[Evil eye]

Were the Mongols themselves grazing too?
However, it doesn't matter. Let me tell you a secret: European horses were also grazing, only they were not war horses, but peasant ones. Guess why so?

[futurohunter]

The then warriors were fed at the expense of the conquered population. And there is no need to fence the garden here

[Andrei from Chelyabinsk]

Quote from Evil Eye

Easy. Firstly, there is no direct evidence of its existence, except for the established opinion of historians.

And heaps of European, Chinese and other sources on which this opinion was formed. Oh yes, I completely forgot - it's all fake

Quote from Evil Eye

regular movements of troops and fodder are needed, and this is impossible.

Oh sure. The Roman Empire didn't exist either. And in general, no empires have ever existed, all this is fiction :)))

[Evil eye]

Dear Andrey! You're being ironic. The Roman Empire is clearly heavily mythologized, but it undoubtedly existed. In one form or another. And left a lot of material traces of its existence - buildings throughout its zone of influence, including religious ones; philosophy, science and cultural influence; the dominance of the Latin language, etc. The Roman Empire did not disappear without a trace: the Western part remains the base of the RCC to this day, the Eastern part was reborn into the Ottoman Empire (whose rulers stubbornly called themselves the successors of the Byzantine basileus). Modern Italy and Turkey are industrialized countries, albeit of the second magnitude.

The Roman Empire not only left traces of its existence. It is quite realistic from a physical point of view, since is based on the maritime logistics of the Mediterranean Basin - the most favorable region for navigation on Earth. So Rome could not exist, it had to be born in this very place and no other civilization could play the same role as the Roman Empire. Although, of course, the capital city could not be located in Italy (which, apparently, it was) - but this did not affect the entire state structure.
The Mongols allegedly did not bring anything of their own, but only quickly copied the Chinese, but they did not bring anything Chinese to Rus' either. But for some reason they destroyed a clean mass of settlements. Mongolia itself did not receive anything materially from these conquests. Yes, and I could not get it, because for the development of transport at the level of the 12th century, Easter Island was more accessible than the outback of Eurasia, and therefore, in principle, it could not be the base for aggressive expansion.

As for the "heaps of sources", they are not _material_ traces of the existence of this historical phantom. Paper will endure everything. A bunch of sources talk about the Flood, or people with dog heads, or giants, or the kingdom of Prester John - but historians consider it all a myth, precisely because geologists do not confirm the flood, and archaeologists have not found skeletons of cynocephals and others rephaims. Legends about Prester John, by the way, have long been associated with the Mongols, who were considered Christians. Now John is considered a myth, but the Mongols are not. By the way, Lev Gumilyov also believed that both data on the special cruelty of the Mongol army of the XIII century and John were a political order, and his prototype was a completely different person who had a different name and was not a Christian.

“Sources” are for the most part legends and myths, which are now considered at face value only because the existence of cynocephals seems like an obvious fiction, and the unreality of an army of many thousands moving off-road is subjectively not obvious to historians.
Some sources, in fact, turn out to be miraculously found as the only copies of some forgotten chronicles already in the era of printing, from no one knows where they came from. Others simply paraphrase information from earlier sources. But even if the sources are considered reliable, the problem of their interpretation remains. For example, in well-known sources it is said that some “Tatars” attacked Rus', and in the eastern sources it is said that the Mongols attacked China, among them there was a certain tribe of Tatars. And historians make a powerful conclusion that these are one and the same people under a single centralized control.
Sometimes, even when translating names, they are immediately translated in the right way, so that ordinary readers do not have the suspicion that the conquests of different peoples are mixed into one heap.

With the same success, if the history of the world were written, for example, by the Indians, then they could record all the bearded, pale-faced Christians with the Latin alphabet in different tribes under the control of one ruler - although we know that the European states have never been united and all the way cut with each other until 1945.
These are all historical phantoms, such as the kingdoms of Prester John and the Cynocephali.

[futurohunter]

Yeah, and also Vietnamese, Arabic, Indian, Burmese, Malay and other Japanese sources

[gsev]

Quote from Evil Eye

Secondly. It is physically impossible to organize such an aggressive campaign, which is attributed to the Mongol. The bandwidth of the communication routes does not allow.

Modern Russian engineers and designers are not able, without a computer, to reproduce on relays, lamps and 511 series microcircuits the automation of Soviet machine tools of 1985 created at a time before the spread of computers. This does not mean that the Ordzhonikidze plant in Moscow until 1985 could not produce machine tools and automatic lines. Logistics problems before the advent of the steam engine were almost identical for Genghis Khan, Yermak, and Khabarov. Russia in 70 years from the foundation of Mangazeya reached Ussuri and Okhotsk. Around the same time, the Mongols reached from Khorezm to Europe. Just as the Mongolian army smashed the Russian armies on Kalka, in the same way the Buryat Mongols smashed the Russian archers in the 17th century in the Buryat steppe if they managed to attack them in rainy weather, when the then small arms could not operate. If Khabarov fought on equal terms with the multi-million Manchurian empire, then why couldn’t Batu, with a larger army than Khabarov had, defeat the smaller Russian state compared to China? In the 17th century, the Chinese were saved from the loss of Primorye and the Amur Region by a detachment of several hundred Korean musketeers. During the defense of Kyiv, Ryazan and Kozelsk, the Russians did not have firearms and these cities were taken by the Mongols in the same way as the Cossacks of Khabarov took the Daurian towns, being compared to the Daurs in a 10-fold minority.

[Evil eye]

Do you know why I participate in such holivars? To personally make sure that the "officials" have no arguments, except for irrelevant analogies that only prove the fakeness of the official global chronology

>> This does not mean that the Ordzhonikidze plant in Moscow until 1985 could not produce machine tools and automatic lines.

And what does this prove? This proves the obvious thing: other things being equal (this is important), the larger the economy, the more opportunities it has for technological growth. The USSR was twice as powerful as the Russian Federation, even purely in terms of the amount of resources - and therefore could do more. But with the Mongols, for some reason, the opposite is true: it is not the Chinese who capture them, but they capture the Chinese. Those. absurdity.

>> Logistics problems before the advent of the steam engine were almost identical for Genghis Khan, Yermak, and Khabarov.

Try to prove this powerful thesis. Like, logistics at sea changed drastically in the transition from oar and direct sail to ocean-going ships with a slanting sail, and on land nothing happened. So did Napoleon and Prince Igroy also have the same conditions?
But that's not the point. The fact is that Yermak ... Moved along the Chusovaya River. Suddenly. All of a sudden, the logistics were tied to rivers with normal supply and normal transportable supplies, and not to horse races with the use of pasture.
At the same time, Yermak had no more than a thousand people, and the advantage over the locals was achieved not by numbers, but by more advanced equipment - firearms. Those. a more developed (technologically and economically) society won over a less developed one.
This is how you refute yourself with irrelevant analogies)))

>> Russia for 70 years from the founding of Mangazeya reached the Ussuri and Okhotsk.

Along the rivers with a gunshot. Irrelevant analogy.

>> Buryat Mongols smashed Russian archers in the 17th century in the Buryat steppe if they managed to attack them in rainy weather

Those. the local population uses the shortcomings of the firearm. And the Mongols used what disadvantages? In the 13th century there was no firearm, the situation was the same. So the example is irrelevant. At the same time, oddly enough, the natives could wet the Russian troops on their territory, but they could not conduct an offensive, and the Indians, Maori and other Zulus had exactly the same problems - even winning on the battlefield, they lost strategically.
And only the Mongols are all fabulous.

>> Khabarov fought on equal terms with the multi-million dollar Manchurian empire

Thanks to the technological advantage.

>> why is Batu with a larger army

Because a larger army requires more supplies, which is impossible to provide.

>> could not defeat the smaller compared to China, the Russian state?

Because he didn't have a technological advantage.

>> The Chinese in the 17th century were saved from the loss of Primorye and the Amur Region by a detachment of several hundred Korean musketeers.

Because for Russia, actions in the Far East took place with a very long supply arm and it was not possible to transfer a large number of troops; therefore, detachments of several hundred people decided. Not like the fabulous Mongols, who drove armies of tens of thousands of people.

>> these cities were taken by the Mongols in the same way as the Cossacks of Khabarov took the Daurian towns
But Khabarov had an advantage in firearms, while the Mongols did not have one due to the lack of it.

As I say, the examples are irrelevant, you yourself are only pouring water on the mill of revision of history

[futurohunter]

Once again: what kind of logistics do the Mongols need before the advent of firearms? Carry grass and arrows?

[Ilic-1984]

Do you define feudalism only according to European concepts? The economic system in Europe and in the steppe is slightly different.
Regarding the impossibility of physical movement:
1. Avars from the Southern Urals to Hungary in the middle of the 6th century.
2. Turkuts from Central Asia to the Don and Transcaucasia in the middle, end of the 6th century.
3. Tamerlane from Central Asia to the Volga in 1391. From Transcaucasia to the borders of the Ryazan Principality in 1395.
Crimean Tatars in the 16-17 centuries regular campaigns against Rus'. Sometimes even to Moscow.
4. Nogais are the same.
5. Resettlement of Kalmyks to the lower Volga in the 17th century.
It's so offhand. Period of 1000 years. Moreover, nomads did not have any special communications or technological breakthrough during this time (namely, in the possibility of movement).
The Mongols did not have a centralized state. Just like in Europe at that time. The feudal system just allows you to abandon the regular movement of troops.

[Seal]

No matter how you dig into the Tolkinist-Mongolkinists, Niagara of nonsense constantly pours out of them: "unique Mongolian horses", which rode 300-600 kilometers at "one refueling", rustled with bare hooves on the ice of rivers, and got food for themselves from under snowdrifts, etc. .P. Indeed, Mongolian horses can get their food from under the snow in winter. They can. But again - thermodynamics and features of digestion. During the day of feeding (tebenevka), the Mongolian horse travels at most several hundred meters in winter. Why? It's not just the snow, though that's also the reason. Dry hay is a very low-calorie food, an animal needs a lot of it to make up for energy losses in the winter (even if it "does not work"), and the process of digesting plant food (grass) in the stomach takes long hours (up to 12-13 hours) .

A horse is not a wolf, in which everything is digested in 2-3 hours. Therefore, the horse, as a herbivore, cannot devour on the move and gallop further. Can not. You can speed up the process by giving high-energy feed - oats, barley, etc. (it enters from the stomach into the intestines after 4-5 hours), but here it is already necessary to approach with caution, because no one has canceled the laws of digestion. They gave a little more, they gave the wrong grain - that's it, the little animal died.

Finally. The horse cannot starve! A modern temporal Wahhabi will still agree that a car with an empty gas tank will not go anywhere, but about a horse he will argue to the user. Whereas a hungry horse abruptly ceases to "work" in the desired mode. Starving for more than a day, a maximum of two, the horse stupidly lies down. And that's it. A horse - Mongolian, Angolan, Ethiopian - no matter which one, produces up to 20-30 liters of gastric juice every day (not counting another 15-20 liters of saliva). The horse cannot but eat, because, as a herbivore, it is designed for the constant arrival of food masses. A horse consumes 10-20 kilograms of hay, several kilograms of oats, etc. per day. (bran and so on). The Mongols did not feed horses with oats, which means that a little more low-calorie hay should have gone. These are the basics of biology, these are the basics of the peculiarities of the digestion of these animals, and this is all the same thermodynamics.

Therefore, ANY cavalry army on our planet is critically dependent on horse feed and its availability. Critically. There are none or they are not enough - PPC kitten. It's like fuel for mechanized columns. No fuel - the column rises. Horses are getting worse - they die instantly with starvation. Alas, biology. A horse is not even a tractor or a truck. No fuel - no horse. Dumb.

In January 1771, the Mongols living on the left bank of the Volga, numbering from 50 to 100 thousand people (the numbers are most likely inaccurate, in reality there were less significant) rushed across the winter Kazakh steppe to Dzungaria. In a few months of a campaign on the sad surface of reality, being subjected to raids by the Kazakhs (the Oirats beat the Kazakhs like dogs for 150 years, and they naturally recouped them), the Mongols - children of the steppes and owners of amazing horses - lost two-thirds of their livestock and up to a third of "personnel ". In 1645, the army of the Crimean Khan Kazy-Girey invaded the winter campaign (!) along the Muravsky Way. Due to the weather (frost) and lack of food, the Tatars lost up to half of their horses and up to a third of their warriors. The geography of the raid - the territory of modern Kursk, Belgorod, Voronezh regions. Therefore, the Tatars tried not to go hiking in winter. This is understandable why.

[stone]

Where are the opinions of historians from? History is a science, historians are scientists who conduct research and rely on historical documents and sources from more than one country, comparing and analyzing various sources. And you and the author write unreasonable nonsense.

[Viktor Sergeev]

It's simple: what did the conquerors do with women? There are no Asian genes in the Russian genotype, and it is dominant in relation to our R1a1, that is, it should grow exponentially. The Crimean Tatars and the Volga region are different people from different branches, but according to the logic of historians, one. Enough? If not, how many Mongols are there? Why so few?

[gsev]

Quote: Victor Sergeev

It's simple: what did the conquerors do with women?

An ordinary conqueror, having captured several concubines, is fed up with prey and turns into a homebody slave owner. Tamerlane, Genghis Khan and Batu were pathological sadists, and in order to force their warriors to go on killing, they often ordered to completely massacre the population or took away women with them, killing those who had weakened along the way. In Afghan legends there is a legend about how Genghis Khan showed his mercy. He stabbed the mother of the infant and delayed stabbing her son. The son, instead of the mother's breast, began to lick the blood of his mother from the spear of Genghis Khan. Humanity woke up in that and he decided to do good to the child. After thinking, he decided to kill the child out of his mercy, so that he would not die of hunger in the absence of a nurse.

[Evil eye]

You see, pathological sadists are incapable of controlling the masses. It's all fantasy.

[Konstantin Shevchenko]

And everything is simple, the first who announced the Tatar-Mongolian yoke was the Pole Jan Dlugosha and said that Vasya 3 threw off the yoke. But he really died before this event. The second is a Tatar ordinary writer of the 19th century who undertook to write a story that, as it turned out, no one knew, at the request of the emperor for a lot of money. As you guessed, - Karamzin Nikolai Mikhailovich. Then it went like a snowball without understanding the details, solid theorists. The fact that Karamzin could be wrong did not bother anyone, all his volumes were perceived as truth. He gave this number to Ivanov and Vasiliev, i.e. Ivan the Terrible did not know that he was the fourth. So think. He has a mistake, he named Ivan's nephew Anna Ioannovna (daughter of Peter 1's brother) 6, although he was 3 on the coins.

[boriz]

It's a pity to upset you, but Tartaria is a completely objective historical reality. It is enough to look at the maps from the beginning of the 19th century and earlier. Tartary is everywhere. Including in the British Encyclopedia of 1771.
If there is a desire and a certain perseverance, you can get into the collection of David Ramsey cards. There are over 120 cards from the 000th century and younger. Ramsey is a millionaire (or billionaire) who is fond of cards and has a huge collection of them.
Their use for commercial purposes is charged. But you can see it in great resolution.
There you can see a lot of unexpected things. Including Tartary.
There are many other sources, such as a book - a collection of engravings (portraits) prepared by order of Louis XIV at the peak of his reign. There, too, the emperor of Tartaria is of a completely European appearance. And the ruler of China is an obvious Mongoloid, but not an emperor, but a king under the rule of the emperor of Tartaria.
In general, there are many unusual things in such sources.
Andrey Lyzlov (late 17th century) writes history about the Russian/Slavic peoples, but the book is called "Scythian History". And modern genealogy confirms this, the Scythians - almost 100% have the haplogroup R1a, Aryan, Slavic.
And on the maps of the 15th century, the habitats of the Slavs / Russians are called Sarmatia.
Tartaria is mentioned in sources until the middle of the 19th century. On the maps (including Russian ones) - Tartaria Independent (Free) on the territory of Central Asia - until the 1860s. In the catalogs of the Haralds (also in Ramsey) in the middle of the 19th century there is a coat of arms, a flag, a sea flag of Tatraria.
But the state of Ukraine is not on these maps. There is (not always) terrain on the territory of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and Poland. And next to it is the outskirts on the territory of the Ryazan or Vorotyn principalities.
I could place a lot of such cards here, but I think that the moderator will strongly object. Due to copyright infringement.

[Ulan.1812]

Quote: boriz

It's a pity to upset you, but Tartaria is a completely objective historical reality. It is enough to look at the maps from the beginning of the 19th century and earlier. Tartary is everywhere. Including in the British Encyclopedia of 1771.
If there is a desire and a certain perseverance, you can get into the collection of David Ramsey cards. There are over 120 cards from the 000th century and younger. Ramsey is a millionaire (or billionaire) who is fond of cards and has a huge collection of them.
Their use for commercial purposes is charged. But you can see it in great resolution.
There you can see a lot of unexpected things. Including Tartary.
There are many other sources, such as a book - a collection of engravings (portraits) prepared by order of Louis XIV at the peak of his reign. There, too, the emperor of Tartaria is of a completely European appearance. And the ruler of China is an obvious Mongoloid, but not an emperor, but a king under the rule of the emperor of Tartaria.
In general, there are many unusual things in such sources.
Andrey Lyzlov (late 17th century) writes history about the Russian/Slavic peoples, but the book is called "Scythian History". And modern genealogy confirms this, the Scythians - almost 100% have the haplogroup R1a, Aryan, Slavic.
And on the maps of the 15th century, the habitats of the Slavs / Russians are called Sarmatia.
Tartaria is mentioned in sources until the middle of the 19th century. On the maps (including Russian ones) - Tartaria Independent (Free) on the territory of Central Asia - until the 1860s. In the catalogs of the Haralds (also in Ramsey) in the middle of the 19th century there is a coat of arms, a flag, a sea flag of Tatraria.
But the state of Ukraine is not on these maps. There is (not always) terrain on the territory of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania and Poland. And next to it is the outskirts on the territory of the Ryazan or Vorotyn principalities.
I could place a lot of such cards here, but I think that the moderator will strongly object. Due to copyright infringement.

Whose cards? Western? There is no Tartaria in Russian.
And show me at least one ruler of Rus'-Russia who would be titled as "Sovereign and Grand Duke of All Tartaria."
Show me, then I'll believe you.

[boriz]

And I did not say that the rulers of Russia are the rulers of Tartaria. Tartaria is a separate state. The rest of the countries around are vassals of Tartaria (like China in the 17th century), or competitive. There are Russian maps with Tartaria.
Here https://ppt-online.org/349908 you can download the presentation of the Encyclopædia Britannica for free, there is a Russian map on the left with document No. 10, where Tartaria is shown.
And Tartarius is not alone. There were many. Great, Small, Chinese, etc.
See, seek. And then you sat down like a cuckoo and you owe everything.
Like the Soviet hero of Khazanov: “I haven’t read the book of such an author, but I angrily condemn it!,
I give you directions, and whether you want to grow wiser is purely your problem.

[Konstantin Shevchenko]

This is not entirely true, there are maps indicating the time of the reign of Catherine the Second, and in large letters the great Tatar. But in the title of Catherine there is no tartaria. So, this is a purely English name for the area.

[Ulan.1812]

Quote: Konstantin Shevchenko

This is not entirely true, there are maps indicating the time of the reign of Catherine the Second, and in large letters the great Tatar. But in the title of Catherine there is no tartaria. So, this is a purely English name for the area.

Exactly. And the name was born precisely because of the conquests of the Horde.

[Konstantin Shevchenko]

In Rus', no one called themselves Tartars. And neither the princes, kings and emperors have a title. For the British, this is the territory of the natives, equal to the Indians in America. Correctly translate grand is not great, but big.

[boriz]

Again:

And I did not say that the rulers of Russia are the rulers of Tartaria.

The Romanovs are not Russians, especially Catherine 2. She, just, did a lot to distort Russian history.
Rus' was part of Tartaria. Gradually squeezed the land in the neighborhood. And under Catherine, the liquidation of Tartaria and the destruction of the memory of her began. That's why they forgot about it so much. The memory of Rus' and the Slavs was also amicably overwritten.
And Tartaria was inhabited by the same Aryans and their descendants as Rus'.
About 4 years ago, the Aryans dispersed from the southern Urals in all directions. To India (there Brahmins have up to 000% R72a), to Iran, to the Mediterranean.
Arabs have power clans with up to 10% R1a. Assad and his wife do not look like Arabs at all, Assad himself has blue eyes.
Among the Jews, the Levites have about 60% R1a. These are all sorts of Levins, Levinsons, etc. About them and in the Bible it is said that the Levites were bequeathed to conduct genealogy according to the husband, and not according to the wife, as the rest of the Jews. That is, Levi was from the Aryans, and he, if I am not mistaken, is a descendant of Abraham.
That's all about it was ordered to forget.
As for the area, no, it is the name of the state. Look at the presentation of the British Encyclopedia, there is about residents there. The table lists the states of Asia, including Tartaria, with capitals, population.

[Konstantin Shevchenko]

Rus' was not part of Tartaria. The Slavs actively populated the territory of modern Russia under Catherine II to the very Vladivostok, under Paul the First Alaska. On the territory that the British designate as a large tartary, various nomadic peoples lived. As history has shown, these peoples could not resist small free detachments that climbed in search of gold in mounds and "for this" changed expensive skins from the natives, recorded as geologists who discovered the Russian land)) Even there are monuments to merchants who were discoverers, a rather risky business. Do not be too lazy to look when Slavic prisons (settlements) appeared according to dates from the Don (or the Volga Basin, to be more precise) to Vladivostok.

[gsev]

Quote: boriz

The Romanovs are not Russians, especially Catherine 2. She, just, did a lot to distort Russian history.

The merit of Catherine 2 is that she appreciated the historical works of the historian Miller and did not encourage the jingoistic but pseudo-scientific statements of his opponents. By the way, Russia owes the preservation of the Tatishchev Chronicle to Miller.

[Ulan.1812]

Quote: boriz

And I did not say that the rulers of Russia are the rulers of Tartaria. Tartaria is a separate state. The rest of the countries around are vassals of Tartaria (like China in the 17th century), or competitive. There are Russian maps with Tartaria.
Here https://ppt-online.org/349908 you can download the presentation of the Encyclopædia Britannica for free, there is a Russian map on the left with document No. 10, where Tartaria is shown.
And Tartarius is not alone. There were many. Great, Small, Chinese, etc.
See, seek. And then you sat down like a cuckoo and you owe everything.
Like the Soviet hero of Khazanov: “I haven’t read the book of such an author, but I angrily condemn it!,
I give you directions, and whether you want to grow wiser is purely your problem.

No need to be rude. If I am a cuckoo, then you are an ass.
There is no need to play up, if the rulers of Rus'-Russia have nothing to do with Tartaria, then Tartaria has nothing to do with Rus'.
And then, as in Deniska's stories, Manchester is spelled, Liverpool is pronounced.

[Asiat-s]

Weird question. This is about if you ask, but prove that the governor of such and such (province, region, territory) is the president of the entire Russian Federation. Brad, right? And yet you ask me this question about the past.

[futurohunter]

And on medieval European maps there were lands where people with two heads live, people with the heads of dogs, people whose head grows from their chest. Your example is an example of the ignorance of Europeans

[Vasilenko Vladimir]

Quote: aleksejkabanets

and now it has come to us.

discarding sarcasm, explain how the Mongols were able to reach Rus' in the amount referred to, how were the nomads able to besiege cities?

[Il'nur]

such chimeras about Tartaria and "there were no Mongols" and similar anti-scientific nonsense

So tell us your interpretation of history, and we will listen, read... What is your scientific title?! Are you a historian, or lived in those days that you so categorically refute what is written in the article ...
Here is evidence that Tartaria existed in manuscripts, but there is no evidence that the "Sumers" dug the Black Sea and built pyramids ...

[Seal]

In January 1771, the Mongols living on the left bank of the Volga, numbering from 50 to 100 thousand people (the numbers are most likely inaccurate, in reality there were less significant) rushed across the winter Kazakh steppe to Dzungaria. In a few months of a campaign on the sad surface of reality, being subjected to raids by the Kazakhs (the Oirats beat the Kazakhs like dogs for 150 years, and they naturally recouped them), the Mongols - children of the steppes and owners of amazing horses - lost two-thirds of their livestock and up to a third of "personnel ".
In 1645, the army of the Crimean Khan Kazy-Girey invaded the winter campaign (!) along the Muravsky Way. Due to the weather (frost) and lack of food, the Tatars lost up to half of their horses and up to a third of their warriors. The geography of the raid - the territory of modern Kursk, Belgorod, Voronezh regions.

[dontsov.an]

"Scythian History" by Andrei Lyzlov was written at the end of the 17th century, the author describes many events in detail, but nowhere does he mention the term "Mongols" or "Mongol-Tatars". And Lyzlov does not mention the yoke of the "Mongol-Tatar" either, since he could not have known the terms and interpretations invented later, in the time of Peter the Great, by hired German "historians". Therefore, the author does not make any discoveries, there is nothing new in such hypotheses and views, and the presentation of the history of the version of the late 17th century does not contradict any constitutional norms.

[Viktor Sergeev]

Can you name these amendments? I understand that you love the West very much, you are ready to kiss it on the gums and hate Putin, but do you need to refer to something?

[ABC-schutze]

“Firstly, there were no “Mongols” in Rus'. There were battles, destroyed cities. But there were no “Mongols”. Archeology shows that Caucasoids fought on both sides - representatives of the white race. "This is also shown by modern genetic studies. Attempts to find "Mongoloid" in Russians ended in complete failure."
************************************************** ****************************************
New "theories" (or rather SCIENTIFIC hypotheses, in the case of SCIENTIFIC confirmation of which, they become SCIENTIFIC theories) should not be built by laymen and amateurs. In any case, to impose them on a wide audience, having read only from "a dozen books." Or a dozen scientifically popular articles by the same innovators "...

Voice, if it doesn’t make it difficult, links to these same “new” sources or “archaeological materials” ...

Just in case...

"A bunch", along the way, try together with the author to explain to me why a "bunch of vagabonds - robbers", with the tag "Vikings", deprived of their heritage under the existing legislation on the transfer of heritage only to the eldest son in their homeland, was able to "move for peace" and to conquer and terrorize the whole of Europe. And a "bunch" of certain "nomads x pastoralists" could not conquer Asia? ..

After all, the author and his supporters somehow do not show any "skepticism" about the European conquests of the Vikings (especially their "visits" to North America) ...

[ABC-schutze]

And Chinese, Central Asian, Iranian archeology, in the context of the Mongol conquests (and, let me remind you, they had a global spatial scope, and not just the "Russian direction" ...), what, if not a secret, in the context of the aforementioned remains, "show"? ..

[Evil eye]

Quote: ABC-schütze

why "a bunch of vagabonds - robbers", with the tag "Vikings" ... was able to "go after syasty" and conquer and terrorize all of Europe. And a "bunch" of some "nomads x pastoralists" could not conquer Asia? ..

Because Vikings:

1) Came from a resource-rich region (rich enough in forest to chop ships and forge iron);
2) They relied on plausible maritime logistics, in contrast to the fantastic runs of hundreds of thousands of Mongol hordes through the desert and mountains;
3) Not so many cities and countries were captured, but much more were simply robbed, relying on surprise attacks and local numerical advantage;
4) They could play pranks only as long as the Europeans were fragmented, and were beaten, as soon as the Europeans organized themselves.
5) Didn't create an empire from mozha to mozha, although they could.

That is why the Vikings, "devoid of heritage", like conquistadors, could terrorize Europe, and a handful of some nomadic pastoralists could not conquer Asia.

Quote: ABC-schütze

And Chinese, Central Asian, Iranian archeology, in the context of the Mongol conquests (...), what, if not a secret, in the context of the mentioned remains, "show"? ..

Nothing that would confirm the existence of the "Mongol Empire". On the alleged Kulikovo field, for example, nothing was found.

[ABC-schutze]

Thanks, it's clear...

Especially from "came from a resource-rich region." Are you talking about Scandinavia of the Middle Ages? .. Besides, - "almost" early? ..

It turns out that their "counterparts" from the continent, who built stone fortresses and cities, had worse "resources of the region"? .. Yes ... Who would have thought ...

By the way, when starting to give "explanations" on scientific and historical topics, try, if it doesn't make it difficult, first to deal with
scientific vocabulary ... The Vikings, like the Pomors and the Rus, did not have "ships". They had rooks... This is somewhat different...

And in terms of "technological perfection" - the Viking boat, a means no more "perfect" than a horse cart or a wagon of the "land" Mongols - nomads ...

Yes, and the leaders of the tribes of the nomadic Mongols, managed with land "logistics" on the routes of their nomads, no worse than the "pilots" of the Vikings with the "plausible" kind of "marine logistics" you mentioned ... According to the "maps", or something, they are their own boats on the seas in raids led? ..

The Mongols also did not "capture" anything anywhere (and not only in Rus') ... But they robbed the recalcitrant captured cities and villages. They burned and destroyed them almost to the ground. And they destroyed the remaining inhabitants. Everyone, both children and adults ... Some of the healthy were taken into slavery ...

"Others" were taxed, a few "watchers" were assigned to them ...

Specify when the aforementioned "Europeans" managed to "organize", specifically for the "beating of the Vikings"? .. How, where and on what basis? .. Just don't rush ... Better, read books first ... Preferably, scientific ones. ..

Regarding the "inability" of the Mongols TO CONQUER DOMINATION in the space from the Pacific Ocean to the Black and Adriatic Seas, you better start with the Armenian, Central Asian, Persian chroniclers of that era "consult". By the way, they were not "acquainted" with each other while prophesying about this ...

The Mongol Empire arose long before the aforementioned Kulikovo Field, an event that took place at its sunset, by the way ...

Yes, and...

Someone Schliemann found Troy. But somehow I don’t remember that someone would “find” numerous traces of its long “siege” ... What the “enlightened” Hellenes so enthusedly talked about ...

But on the Kulikovo field, before you “look for” something there, you should first find the EXACT PLACE of the battle ... By the way ... But they “were looking for” - then, there, who and what? .. And how? .. Isn't Gumilev with other "historians" from mathematics? ..

[Evil eye]

>> Especially from "come from a resource-rich region". Are you talking about Scandinavia of the Middle Ages? .. Besides, - "almost" early? ..

Exactly. Any objections?

>> It turns out that their "Visavis" from the continent, who built stone fortresses and cities, were worse with the "resources of the region"?.. Yes... Who would have thought...

Did the Mongols build stone fortresses and cities? I wonder where.

>> first deal with scientific vocabulary...

Let the terminology suck professional historians, they have no other business.

>> And in terms of "technological perfection", - the Viking boat, the tool is no more "perfect" than a horse cart or a wagon of "overland" Mongols - nomads ...

As follows from the meaning of the law of Archimedes and other basic laws of physics, not only the Viking boat, but even the Polynesian catamaran is, in principle, more perfect than a horse-drawn cart. And not only the Mongolian of the 13th century, but even the American stagecoach of the 19th century.

For example, the carrying capacity of the knorr is 26 tons, and the wagons are up to two tons. This is a modern wagon, with tires and steel axles. Need further clarification?

>> Yes, and the leaders of the tribes of the nomadic Mongols, managed with land "logistics

No matter how cool the shaman the leader of the nomads is, he cannot do anything with the fundamental limitations on the throughput of the overland route.

>> According to the "carts", or something, they led their boats across the seas in raids? ..

If you are interested in this, then we swam mainly along the coast, you won’t get lost here.

>> The Mongols also "captured" nothing and nowhere (and not only in Rus') ...
But what about the "Mongolian Empire"? This is not a territory of robbery, but an alleged state with an allegedly normal state apparatus: with Baskaks, coachmen, and so on.

>> And robbed recalcitrant captured cities and villages.

What did they take, how did they take it out…

>> burned and destroyed them almost to the ground.

And of course, no one could oppose anything to the half-dead conquerors, exhausted from a months-long campaign. In general, only the Mongols knew how to fight in the 13th century, the rest had paws. There is no evidence, of course.

>> Some of the healthy were taken into slavery...

Where were they taken, what were they fed on the road, where slave labor was used ... What was there in Mongolia - sugar cane plantations or mines?

>> "Others" were taxed,

How was the tribute taken out?

>> assigned a few "watchers" to them...

The people, of course, did “ku” in front of the “watchers”, as in “Kin-dza-dza”, and did not try to do anything with them for a century and a half. And then from Mongolia they will send a punitive detachment, which for the second time will pass through the devastated places with burned villages and cities, and for the second time they will ruin them. It was Napoleon who had problems when he left the same way that he came, but who is this Napoleon in front of Genghis Khan? loch.

>> You better start with the Armenian, Central Asian, Persian chroniclers of that era, "consult".

Let's first consult Greek, Indian, Persian and Egyptian authors about the existence of people with dog heads, and then check with historians and biologists whether there are such people.

>> Someone Schliemann found-still Troy. But somehow I don’t remember that someone would “find” numerous traces of her long “siege” ...

So this is not Troy.

[abrakadabre]

The myth of the Tatar-Mongol yoke

There were no Mongols?

What?! Again!!! How can?

[kor1vet1974]

What?! Again!!! belay How much can you?

How much do you need..

[Reklastik]

And you still don’t know that once there was nothing at all and the spirit of God hovered over the waters Tse OK Samsonov!

[Asiat-s]

Well, in essence - can you refute Samsonov? Weak? Clearly, clearly, with serious sources? Or just splash with emotions?

[ABC-schutze]

And let him first, something scientifically serious, voiced on the topic. Exactly, essentially...

And he himself, at first, will try, relying on serious research and sources, to "refute" not a "school textbook", but scientific classics of scientists, such as Rybakov or Kuzmin ...

[Xnumx vis]

Quote: abrakadabre

The myth of the Tatar-Mongol yoke

There were no Mongols?

What?! Again!!! How can?

These alternatives are already sick of ....

[Viktor Sergeev]

These are not alternatives. What did the conquerors do with women? The genes of the Mongols are dominant in relation to the genes of the Russians, displacing them. Not even 1% of Asian genes were found in the Russian genes, although during this time we should all acquire them. Further more fun, according to official historians, the Mongols came to the Crimea, took the fortresses, drove out the Genoese and settled down. Only now the Mongols went through the Volga region, as a result, the genotype of the Tatars in the Volga region and the Crimea should be similar. The difference is complete, no similarity, a different group.
The Mongols learned about their conquests in the 19th century.
The steppes cannot give a large army, not feed them. It is not possible to cross the whole of Eurasia on horseback, and even capture everything along the way, you cannot feed the horses, not to mention the soldiers.
Continue?

[gsev]

Quote: Victor Sergeev

The steppes cannot give a large army, not feed them. It is not possible to cross the whole of Eurasia on horseback, and even capture everything along the way, you cannot feed the horses, not to mention the soldiers.

And how then did Russia master Siberia in the 17th century without steamboats and steam locomotives? In the same way, the pioneers of the United States for 30 years at the end of the 18th and beginning of the 19th century after gaining independence by this country passed North America to the Pacific Ocean. Alexander the Great, Tamerlane, Turkey or the Arabs made their main conquests in a minimal historical period.

[Evil eye]

You still won’t believe it: at first they moved along the rivers (along the Chusovaya, along the Amur), then they built stationary fortifications (we called them jails, the amers called forts), in which they created food supplies and kept armed detachments. Well, they gradually developed the territory and cut down roads, all this not in two years, but in decades. And this is in conditions when the local population (as it is considered from the official point of view) did not have a state and a regular army.

And the Americans - no matter how surprising you - at the end of the 18th - beginning of the 19th century already owned California, where they got on ships, skirting South America.
You see how difficult it is to move on land. And all this history of the Wild West shows how long the territories are being developed.

[Asiat-s]

And what's the problem? You already, as it were, use the word "alternatives" in an abusive sense. Why? Well, I roughly guess the reasons for such an emotional outburst, but I would like to know for sure. Well, take it and PROVE to everyone that Samsonov composes fables.
We will believe you IF you prove it. And talking "nonsense" here ... unproductive and stupid. This is at least.

[far diu]

What is the point of proving to schizos that they are not schizos? It's like arguing with a wall. It's better to just keep silent, or pougarat over another SHUE theory.

[Il'nur]

It's better to just keep quiet

So shut up, you pass for a smart one ...
And if you have already said something, then prove that you are not a schizo, but smarter than everyone, just give arguments, and we will honor your interpretation of history ...
And if you can’t give arguments, then you are just that “wall” from which all arguments bounce off ..

[Vasilenko Vladimir]

these are simple questions
How did Genghis Khan manage to unite the nomads in less than one generation?
how did they get to the Volga and not die of hunger?
from whom did they learn the siege of cities?
and such as dozens

[ABC-schutze]

This is their "intellectual" bread ...

Reading "without a pencil in hand", an exciting "reading" and making judgments, is somehow easier than starting to master the scientific "alphabet" before "taking up the pen" ... There is TOMA and not always "in Russian" ...

And here, articles and a couple - another "books", notorious "historians", people from areas that are not at all "adjacent" to history ...

Moreover, this applies not only to the poor thing of history ...

Well, remember the same tales about the "surgeons" of the Filipino "wizards-healers", a certain June, a certain Kashpirovsky and other "pyramid builders" such as the "financial genius" Mavrodi ...

The people, who wanted, easily, quickly and a lot, always "teared their chest" for this audience ... And there was always someone to "exploit" this interest and activity of his ... And not selfishly ...

[Viktor Sergeev]

As much as needed, so that even die-hard officials would understand: to inflate this myth is to disgrace their ancestors, who could not resist the shepherds and horse breeders. Geneticists clearly said: it was not, but pseudo-historians firmly stand on their positions.

[Ulan.1812]

Dear people, why should Russians have Mongolian genes?
Have you dealt with women at all?
You do not know that not every sexual intercourse ends in pregnancy?
Why did you decide that the Mongols raped everyone, why did you decide that Russian women sat and waited to be raped, genetics did not prove anything.
The Mongols did not live in the conquered territories and did not mix with the local population. After the raids, they went to the steppes.
And yet, why did you decide that the Mongols are those who now live in the territory of present-day Mongolia?
Have you heard of the Inner Mongolia region in China? That many peoples of Siberia are also the descendants of the empire of Genghis Khan are not aware.
Really, aren't you tired?
If you believe the alternatives that the Horde could not carry out such campaigns, then you have to admit that the Roman conquests are fake. As well as the conquests of Alexander the Great... where did he get food for his horses?
So there were no conquests of the Huns, Arabs, Ottomans, etc.
What kind of racism is this and Nazism, all of the above could and only the Horde could. Well stupid what to take from them. Tell the Poles that there was no battle at Liegnitz, and Miller rewrote their entire history.

[Derbes19]

Do you really not see the difference between the campaigns of the Tatar-Mongol, the Roman Empire, the campaigns of Alexander the Great and the campaigns of the Huns? These are 4 completely different things. The last 3 met in world history quite often, albeit in less pronounced forms. And only the first is unique to fantastic. No, the invasion from the east to Rus' is obvious, but definitely not in the format in which historians present us. There are two options, either the homeland of the invasion was much closer to Mongolia or China, or the invasion was more extended in time. How it really happened, I don't know. Or I don't remember.)

[zenion]

There were Mongols in China, but while they understood the Chinese letter, they all died out and did not reach that Russia. And they didn’t have Russian princes in their services, they were prototypes of Ukrainians after digging the Black Sea.

[cold wind]

The terms "Kievan Rus" and "Tatar-Mongol yoke" are inaccurate and controversial, coined by historians and propagandists. Under the "yoke" falls 2 large periods, there was no single "Kyiv" state, there were complex relationships between the Slavic and Turkic proto-state formations.

1 period. The conquest of the European part of the territory of modern Russia Mongol Empire . In her army there were Mongols, Chinese, Turks, Slavs, etc. - all whom she had previously conquered. This empire collapsed in 1294 after only 88 years.
2 period. A new state was formed on its ruins, now called the Golden Horde. It was a vassal union on the territory of the European part and the Trans-Urals of the Russian Federation, parts of Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan. Initially, the capital was not far from Astrakhan, then moved to Moscow. There were very difficult relationships in different periods.

[Serg65]

Quote from cold wind

Initially, the capital was not far from Astrakhan, then moved to Moscow.

Nah .... I won’t drink a hundred!

[Xnumx vis]

Quote: Serg65

Quote from cold wind

Initially, the capital was not far from Astrakhan, then moved to Moscow.

Nah .... I won’t drink a hundred!

They are delirious! And it's useless to argue with these delusional people. There was no invasion of Rus' .. Well, but China, Central Asia, Georgia, India was? Or is that also not the Mongols?

[Serg65]

Quote: 30 vis

Or is that also not the Mongols?

What are the Mongols? These are all Tartars, their tricks ... and in India, the Mughals, not to be confused with the Mongols !!!

[Evil eye]

Only Moscow was in modern Kolomna, and on the site of Moscow there was a small fortified settlement called Kolomna.

[alekseykabanets]

Quote from cold wind

now called the "Golden Horde". It was a vassal union on the territory of the European part and the Trans-Urals of the Russian Federation, parts of Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan. Initially, the capital was not far from Astrakhan, then moved to Moscow.

Can you clarify when the capital of the Golden Horde moved to Moscow?

[cold wind]

Quote: aleksejkabanets

Can you clarify when the capital of the Golden Horde moved to Moscow?

In 1577, Saraichik, the capital of the Nogai Horde, was taken by the Moscow army. Before that, Astrakhan and Kazan were taken. Accordingly, since this period, Moscow has united under itself the main territories of the disintegrated Golden Horde and can be called its capital.
True, the territories of the Crimean Khanate and northern Kazakhstan remained, for which Moscow is still fighting with other countries.

[Viktor Sergeev]

Yeah, well, they all were, only for some reason when they came to Rus', all the Mongols, Tatars and other Asians evaporated, well, or the men were impotent and eunuchs, because they did not leave a drop of seed behind them. To tell that the Asian genotype is dominant in relation to ours and that Russians do not have Asian genes?
And the funniest thing was going on, the Tatars conquered, but why do the genes of the Crimean Tatars have a different group than those of the Volga region, if the Volga ones captured the Crimea and settled there?

[cold wind]

Are Tatars Asians? Where did you fall from? Tatars is a generalized name for many Turkic peoples, they have classic Caucasoid facial features. The Turks for the most part are also Caucasoids. Crimean and Volga Tatars are different peoples from different tribes. Naturally, the Mongol empire from the mother part did not drive the army across the whole of Eurasia, the captured peoples were mainly used, they were obliged to supply troops to the imperial army, then to the Horde. The Mongols and the Chinese were a meager number, mainly detachments, senior officers, officials and engineers.

[Evil eye]

Tatars ... have classic Caucasian facial features. The Turks for the most part are also Caucasoids.

It remains to take the last step and admit that no Mongols (in the modern sense of the word) captured Rus', that they were some kind of Caucasoids - perhaps ethnic Turks.
Then the picture is more or less believable.
It is possible that these "Tatars" recognized themselves as vassals of some "Mongols", but what kind of Tatars and what kind of Mongols were still to be figured out.

And what you are describing is reminiscent of a caricature on the topic of detachments in the Second World War: it means that Stalin is standing, he has a revolver in both hands, which rest against the backs of two NKVD officers. Those also have two revolvers and they hold two more each at gunpoint, and so on. Naturally, this is fantasy even for the Second World War, but there is nothing to say about the army of the 12th century. As soon as the majority of non-Mongols became in the army, then the “minor number” of the Mongols themselves would immediately be cut into pieces and dispersed to their native yurts. Especially officials and engineers. Mongolian engineer - sounds like a Mongolian submariner

[cold wind]

Isn't it surprising that a meager number of French, Spaniards, Portuguese, British practically took over the whole world? And something "English" facial features are rarely found among Indians, but among the British, Indians are no longer uncommon.
The Mongols, taking advantage of the Civil War in China, were able to capture their kingdoms. Received technology and statehood.
This gave them a critical advantage over their neighbors. Technologically backward and without established statehood.
Therefore, Ukraine and Russia cannot exist in one state. Russia is a typical Asian despotism that received statehood from the Mongols / hordes. Ukraine is a typical European state with undeveloped institutions.

[Evil eye]

Imagine no. Because the French, Spaniards, Portuguese and British relied on a technologically advanced rear (instead of the desert steppes), maritime logistics (instead of improbable races on the mainland) and, most importantly, firearms, which the "Mongols" did not have close.

Europeans left a lot of traces of their conquests - from the population of mixed blood to buildings and linguistic traces. The Mongols did not leave a fig, except for single monuments with inscriptions, which can be interpreted in any way.

The existence of colonial empires was ensured by the possibility of a quick transfer of troops from the metropolises, which the Angles demonstrated by pouring blood on the uprising of the sepoys.

As for the mixed population, it was in India that the situation was special: caste prejudices on the one hand and racism on the part of the conquerors, who at the same time had the opportunity to bring their families to India, which the Mongols did not even have close. In other countries colonized by Europeans, there were many more half-breeds. And yet, the descendants of mixed marriages - the Anglo-Indians - are well known and even mentioned in the constitution of India. "The number of Anglo-Indians in modern India is estimated at a wide range from 300 thousand to 1 million people, and a significant number of them live in Great Britain and a number of other English-speaking countries."

“The Mongols, taking advantage of the Civil War in China, were able to seize their kingdoms. We got technology and statehood.”
You know, it's fantasy. The kind of barbarians who could take advantage of civil wars did not receive technology and statehood, but at best plundered or founded petty despotism. There is not a single contrary example in the documented period, only in legendary antiquity. Material evidence, of course, is also zero.

Well, your words about “typical Asian despotism” are an excellent illustration of what ideological dough all these historical mythological pies are baked from

[Ulan.1812]

Quote from cold wind

Isn't it surprising that a meager number of French, Spaniards, Portuguese, British practically took over the whole world? And something "English" facial features are rarely found among Indians, but among the British, Indians are no longer uncommon.
The Mongols, taking advantage of the Civil War in China, were able to capture their kingdoms. Received technology and statehood.
This gave them a critical advantage over their neighbors. Technologically backward and without established statehood.
Therefore, Ukraine and Russia cannot exist in one state. Russia is a typical Asian despotism that received statehood from the Mongols / hordes. Ukraine is a typical European state with undeveloped institutions.

Straight from the Horde? Couldn't they build their own statehood? Are they stupid?
And how did you get it without even the slightest effort?
The Horde ambassador arrived and gave Ivan the Third a letter where it was written - we grant you statehood to Russians?
Do you want to say that the Russians got statehood for free? Cool, but the guys don't know.

[S. Nikolaev]

Quote from cold wind

Therefore, Ukraine and Russia cannot exist in one state. Russia is a typical Asian despotism that received statehood from the Mongols / hordes. Ukraine is a typical European state with undeveloped institutions.

This, young man, is typical propaganda work in today's cancellation culture. Ask a current American, for example, about the role of the USSR in the Second World War. And it's only been 70 years.

If you want to understand history, to know it, at least in fragments, but the real one, study it. Today, much can be found, there would be a desire.

[nerd.su]

Quote from cold wind

. Russia is a typical Asian despotism that received statehood from the Mongols / hordes. Ukraine is a typical European state with undeveloped institutions.

CIPSO recruits employees in mental hospitals!?

[guest]

Quote from cold wind

Therefore, Ukraine and Russia cannot exist in one state.

Rather, brains cannot exist in your head.

[gsev]

Quote from cold wind

Therefore, Ukraine and Russia cannot exist in one state. Russia is a typical Asian despotism that received statehood from the Mongols / hordes. Ukraine is a typical European state with undeveloped institutions.

Let's see how long an independent Ukrainian state can survive without Russia's support. For some reason it seems to me that I will live to see the time when education at Lviv University will be mainly taught in Polish and English.

[Asiat-s]

Quote from cold wind

The Mongols and the Chinese were a meager number, mainly detachments, senior officers, officials and engineers.

Wah-wah. Is that what they told you? Where did the Kazakhs come from then? They now have a territory almost a quarter of the Russian. Maybe they are the "golden horde"?

[Xnumx vis]

Quote: Victor Sergeev

the genes of the Crimean Tatars have a different group than those of the Volga region, if the Volga region captured the Crimea and settled there?

The Kyrymchi have genes from different peoples who have inhabited Crimea from different times. There are kyrym Tatars of a completely Mongolian type, there are European appearance, but swarthy. There are blond. A mixture of diverse peoples.

[Vend]

And why is this crazy article on VO?

Tatar-Mongolian yoke "- a myth, a fake. There were vassal relations

At the beginning, the author claims that there were no Mongols, then where did the vassal relations come from A fake is a statement that there was no yoke. Half the world conspired, came up with the Tatar-Mongolian yoke, so that the Russians had something to be proud of There was no Mongol invasion, but the Golden Horde appeared from the air and the khanates, with which the Russians had to fight for a long time, also appeared from the air.

[Asiat-s]

And you carefully read: there were no Mongols, but there were MOGULS. Well, the letter was inserted quite recently (by historical standards). And who were the Mughals who inhabited the so-called Tartaria?
You can read here: https://wakeupnow.info/ru/one-menu-facts-opinion/2847-kto-ty-kazakh-brat-drug-ili-5

[GAF]

Quote: Clever man

There were no Mongols? You need to ask Klim Zhuky!)

You can also ask Marco Polo - a witness to the events of the 13th century. Among the fantastic "miracles" there is something to pay attention to. The traveler - missionary with a papal bull offered the khan - the ruler of China to accept the Catholic religion. Traveled in the second half of the 13th century, and there is a message about Genghis Khan, who at the beginning of the 13th century led the nomadic Tatars.
"They did not have princes, they paid tribute to the great king and called him Unekan, and in French it means priest Ivan; this is the same priest Ivan, about whose great power the whole world speaks. The Tatars paid him tribute, out of ten cattle one cattle" .
Further, it is told that Genghis Khan asked for the hand of the daughter of priest Ivan, and he refused in an insulting manner. The story ends with a battle between two huge armies, which Pop Ivan lost...
By the way, there are medieval maps of vast Tartaria on the Web.
For all the fantasticness of Marco Polo's descriptions, the impression remains that the Vatican "sniffed out" what was happening on the Asian continent. The traveler is not one of those who was Afanasy Nikitin, two centuries later. The envoy of the Vatican, Marco Polo, was an adviser to the Great Khan - the ruler of China ...

[Evil eye]

And what material evidence confirms the words of Marco Polo? Anything can be written. About dogheads, for example. Why should we believe everything?

[Seal]

By the way, "Marco Polo" has an interesting moment. Here, in the official version of the story, the "Mongols" take cities (both ours and those before us) with the help of super-throwing devices, which they drag right from under China. Well, it goes without saying that "Chinese engineers" serve these super-duper metal tanks. Even a detachment of a certain "Kolovrat" allegedly "Mongols" was allegedly shot in a snowy forest clearing from stone throwers.
But we read Marco Polo.

That is, Marco Polo claims that the Chinese and Tatars (they are also "Mongols" in the official version of history) had no idea about the existence of throwing devices until the Polo brothers built such a device for them, which both the Chinese and the Mongols were pretty surprised.
But this is the first acquaintance of the Chinese and Mongols with a throwing device at the very end of the 13th century.

[Evil eye]

Officials always do this: we see here, we don’t see here, we wrap the herring here)
If data from chronicles and other treatises do not confirm their version, then they are immediately ignored.

[Seal]

China intervened. Here is an article from the French Monde with my comment (highlighted in red).

[gsev]

Quote: Seal

China intervened.

It seems that China is now rethinking its history. For example, now in China it is customary to consider Kogure not an ancient Korean, but a Chinese state. It is interesting to observe the reaction of some Chinese woman when it dawns on her that her violent nationalism and dismissive or derogatory assessments of Korean statehood and culture, if applied to the state of Koguryo, will sink, if not into treason, then into sedition. Attempts of forceful pressure, which you spoke about, are in many ways detrimental to Chinese diplomacy and China's attempts to use its soft power.

[Uncle lee]

"Tatar-Mongol yoke" - a myth, a fake.

Now the battle will begin! "Kulikovskaya battle"!

[Tim]

Popcorn got)))). Now the luminaries of history will converge!

[kor1vet1974]

Now the battle will begin! "Kulikovskaya battle"!

"Now someone's blood will be shed, someone's blood will be shed ... Now, now .." (c)

[water]

I am not a historian. No. But looking through various kinds of historical research, I became convinced that what is happening now (in the interstate military-political aspect, of course) is similar to what happened a little less than 800 years ago. And now Russia has no other way but to become a Horde state again. Either the Horde (the army, therefore) and the yoke (the tax used to be called so) - or crushed. If you look around carefully, you will see this too.

[ratcatcher]

"In fact, Rus' was the direct heir to the ancient northern civilization - the legendary Hyperborea, the kingdom of the Aryan-Rus and Great Scythia."
Holy-holy-holy! I thought it was all in the past, in the 90s and 00s. In company with Fomenko and other great Ukrainians ...

[Konnick]

Quote: ratcatcher

"In fact, Rus' was the direct heir to the ancient northern civilization - the legendary Hyperborea, the kingdom of the Aryan-Rus and Great Scythia."
Holy-holy-holy! I thought it was all in the past, in the 90s and 00s. In company with Fomenko and other great Ukrainians ...

You can't say that categorically.
There is such a singer Vaenga, this is her pseudonym, and she herself is from Severomorsk, where the Vaenga River flows. The official science says

This name, in turn, arose from the Sami "wayongg" - a female deer, an important

But unofficial science says otherwise

Coincidence? I don’t think so ...
Rivers with the name Vonga and Voinga in Karelia, in the Moscow region the Voinka river, in the Vladimir region a tributary of the Sudogda, the Voyninga river, what kind of Sami are on the Oka. And these are not some Sami or Finno-Ugric names, but the most ancient toponyms, which are not only Slavic, but also easily translated from Sanskrit. This is where you scratch your turnips ...
And the word WAR is also in Sanskrit war. Well, GA is a Sanskrit way, well, or Gat. Doesn't smell like deer.

[Luminman]

Quote: Konnick

what are the Sami on the Oka. And these are not some Sami or Finno-Ugric names

Oka is the most Finno-Ugric toponym. Like Kama, Ryazan, Moscow, etc...

[boriz]

For the sake of justice, I note that Finno-Ugric peoples came to our lands not so long ago, in two waves. 2 years ago and 000 years ago. The first wave - the current Finns, the second - the Balts. Well, those who settled along the road and lived in parallel with our ancestors. The way of life was different, they did not interfere with each other.
People with haplogroup R1a lived in the European part of Russia (present) more than 4 years ago. These are paleogenetic data. Now these things are very specific.
As for the Oka and the Finno-Ugric. I don’t know whose toponym Oka is, but you can look at any modern map and find that near the city of Kaluga, a left tributary (not the smallest river) flows into the Oka called Ugra ...

[Luminman]

Quote: boriz

The first wave - the current Finns, the second - the Balts

Well, the Balts should be understood only as Estonians (N1c), but not Lithuanians with Latvians ...

[boriz]

Latvians and Lithuanians have the same predominant haplogroup, N1c.
The language is different, yes. They had previously adopted elements of Sanskrit from the Proto-Slavs (Aryans) to varying degrees. It is believed that today the language of Lithuanians is closest to Sanskrit. It's just that our language developed, and they, in the wilderness in the swamps, froze in development for one and a half thousand years.

[Carmela]

Quote: Konnick

But unofficial science says otherwise
Coincidence? I don’t think so ...

Folk etymology. She tries to explain a lot, but she doesn't do it well. Science is still science. It is necessary for children from kindergarten to form rational thinking, from school - a scientific worldview, and then on respected sites (hopefully) they will not publish any nonsense (this is called information noise, distracting from serious messages). If there is informational noise, it means that someone needs it.

[Evil eye]

Etymology has not yet climbed out of its cradle and is at the same stage of development at which alchemy once was. Therefore, there is no big difference between "folk" and "anti-folk" etymology. Etymology as a science is prevented from developing by two circumstances:
1) it relies on an established chronology and history
2) ideologization. For example, the etymology of the Russian language is largely based on the works of Fasmer, who worked in the Third Reich and attributed foreign roots to all Russian words. And ours, due to a severe inferiority complex, repeat this propaganda.

[UA3QHP]

And there is also the Vorgol River in the Lipetsk Region, and Voronezh flows nearby, hybrids of "crows and hedgehogs" are not to be offered.

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

If the cats are involved, then I am for, no - categorically against!
It is not surprising that this work appeared in the "History" section.

[Reklastik]

Now the Star Gates will open before us and the Apostle Samson will let us in ...

[Evil eye]

The picture is beautiful, it would look good in Skyrim. In real life, it's bad, because. some sources of underground heat are needed, but we didn’t have them in Rus'.

[gsev]

Quote: ratcatcher

I thought it was all in the past, in the 90s and 00s. In company with Fomenko and other great Ukrainians ...

Such is human nature. The exaltation of one's nation of history and one's significance is characteristic of any person. An adequate assessment of one's capabilities comes only as a result of interaction with others - partners, friends, competitors, enemies.

[Evil eye]

Fortunately, Fomenko's excesses are losing popularity. It's time to return to Morozov's original ideas, which have crossed the centennial milestone!

[Leader_Barmaleev]

Well, finally, someone decided to speak out against this well-established mega-fake, with which our officials and liberals were happy to justify Russia's technological backwardness. I will also contribute my seven kopecks to the destruction of this myth. Background - in Soviet times, on a voluntary basis, I led a biological circle in one of the schools. He took the matter seriously - we not only hung birdhouses and cleaned streams, but also studied thoughtfully and consistently the general principles of biology. The kids in the circle were smart - two of them are now academicians and I am proud that there is my merit in this. So...
We discussed somehow biocenoses. Actually, there was nothing particularly difficult with biocenoses, but abrupt changes in the biocenosis can lead to fatal consequences. As a factor of abrupt changes, the anthropogenic factor was considered as the most dangerous and unpredictable. And here, almost by accident, the conversation went to the STEPPE - the most delicate and unstable biocenosis. Imagine that an army is marching across the steppe. Equestrian. It does not go fast, since the most enduring horses can carry no more than 20% of their own weight, and you have to carry a lot, since there are no settlements and warehouses with provisions in the steppe. Horses, like people, want to eat, you won’t take a lot of oats in a wagon train, that is, the basis of the diet of horses and sheep (live canned food) is steppe grass. Feather grass, bluegrass, bent grass, etc. And let's count - there is an army of ten thousand people - this is at least thirty thousand horses - for each one combat, one spare and one pack. The grass mass in the steppe is 400-600 grams (during rains up to two kilograms) per square meter, a horse needs at least twenty kilograms of grass per day. And now estimate on what area should this army disperse so that the horses eat ??? And will such an army be manageable due to its dispersal? The next moment - the period of grass stand in the steppe is short, in order to have food you need to move to the rivers, but the rivers along the route of the horde flow either to the north or to the south, and you need to move to the west, and in some places through the mountains, AND THERE ARE NO ROADS AND FOOD STOPS ALSO . And then winter comes - there are no haystacks and granaries along the way, there are no villages and villages - there is even no one to rob. And that's it, the army died of hunger. First, horses will be eaten, and then ... Well, you understand that no army from the Mongolian steppes could simply reach Europe. Applause, curtain.

[Lech from Android.]

Quote: Leader_Barmaleev

Applause, curtain.

I agree with you ...
there is another indirect argument in favor of the fact that the Tatar-Mongol yoke is a myth of the Westerners ... in the USA, in all seriousness, they began to assert that it was the Anglo-Saxons who defeated Hitler and that the Russians practically did not take any part in this ... from Stories in the West they defame and cheat as they want in a light favorable to themselves and in the same way cheat with the history of the Tatar-Mongolian yoke, many moments of which are a white spot requiring painstaking study by independent scientists.
Opponents often cite some written sources of ancient writers as arguments ... mind you written ones ... but the place of the Mamaevsky massacre and the battle on Kalka has not yet been found and no traces of mass deaths of people have been found at this place ... why?

[Konnick]

Read about the Zolotarevsk settlement near Penza. There is everything and mass death, and artifacts

[Evil eye]

There was a settlement that was burned down. As they write on Wikipedia - presumably the Mongols. Because it seems like it was on the alleged path of the Mongols. And what, in fact, confirms that they were the Mongols? And the more thousands of troops.

[Lykases1]

Well I do not know. Once upon a time, the troops did move. Plus, there were not so many Mongols, or non-Mongols. Rus' could not put up a large army, because there was no Rus' as such. There was a territory on which a handful of small city-states were located. When the princes staged a great slaughter, they had, at most, 3-7 thousand spears. And seven is probably even too much. Therefore, they were freed only when Rus' united and was able to put up an adequate army.

[Konnick]

Once upon a time, the troops did move.

Moreover, the Mongols moved in the winter.
If we take the history of the Patriotic War, then there are a lot of raids by cavalry units in the rear. Belov's cavalry corps went on a raid on the rear in February 42 and went out to his own only in June. Moreover, he went out in a roundabout way, since their horses were Mongolian and accustomed to pasture. Mongolian horses did not eat grain.
Read the book by the wonderful writer James Aldridge, who wrote The Last Inch, about the Mongolian horse Amazing Mongol.

[Lykases1]

I read about Mongolian horses. You can write a lot of objections to the article, I just don’t see the point. She has a place in YouTube with alternatives, and not like LAI, but in which the earth is flat.

[Asiat-s]

Here, another comrade who "mixed into a bunch of horses, people and volleys of thousands of guns ...".
If you can write "a lot of objections" - so what's the problem ?! You take and write an article where you show "your" version of events. Justify and PROVE the correctness of your interpretation. It is possible even from the history textbook for the 5th grade of the TsPSh. No time? Is there time to write here (and probably not only here)?

[Derbes19]

In winter, a horse without additional rations in the form of hay, oats, etc. no where to go. Tales about magical Mongolian horses are just fairy tales. The calorie content of the dug out feed is not enough. Personally, last winter, I was interested in this issue with Kazakh shepherds.

[Evil eye]

I hope you are aware of the difference between raids and frontal hostilities, assaults and city sieges; that in the 20th century, cavalrymen fought with firearms and more often in dragoon style, and an active participation in the battle was required from a medieval horse; that, perhaps, in the raid the horses ate pasture, but before that they were clearly not kept on free grazing - and so on. etc.

[Evil eye]

You ask - we answer.
Previously, troops moved through sparsely populated areas by water transport. Sea or river. Until now, water arteries form the basis of cargo traffic.
Naturally, in the process of hostilities, the troops could change to horses and move away from the waterway. Yes, we could walk. But the main supply went by water.
It's like in the Great Patriotic War: they fought, oddly enough, in tanks, and the goods were transported, who would have thought, by trains. And even then, a significant part of the cargo was transported by sea and rivers.

In general, desert nomads moved and fought without waterways, but this is a special case, and the Arabs who conquered the space from the Maghreb to Pakistan are the same exaggeration as with the Mongols.

It was possible to move along the roads in a relatively densely populated area, in which there were supplies and a population that prepared these supplies and served the road. But even in this case, the main cargo turnover went by water, and the roads only allowed the troops to cut off the path.

In the 19th century, vast armies could move even through poorly developed terrain on foot and on horseback, due to the organization of supplies and, in general, due to scientific and technological progress. But the 12th century is not the 19th.

[kalibr]

Quote: Leader_Barmaleev

haystacks and granaries along the way

As much as you like ... around settlements and villages ...

[Leader_Barmaleev]

around towns and villages...

Perhaps it was sooooo subtle sarcasm, but if you believe the archaeologists, then on the possible route of the Horde army on the territory of southern Siberia, Altai, northern Kazakhstan, and the southern Urals, THERE WAS NOT A SINGLE SETTLEMENT AT ALL, only very rare temporary camps, but they didn’t store fodder there. I'm talking about the XII-XV centuries.

[Serg65]

Quote: Leader_Barmaleev

southern Siberia, Altai, northern Kazakhstan, southern Urals

Is this really their itinerary?

[kalibr]

Quote: Leader_Barmaleev

THERE WAS NOT A SINGLE SETTLEMENT IN GENERAL

There was at least one. Zolotarevka. Or does it not count? And from what settlements did the princes collect tribute then? Or did they not have livestock and fodder?

[Derbes19]

Are the Kazakh steppes crowded? In the Kipchak steppes, the military would have perished without a fight. I absolutely do not believe in that nonsense written in the article, but something is wrong with the Tatar-Mongol invasion.

[Serg65]

Quote from: Derbes19

In the Kipchak steppes, the military would have perished without a fight.

And in Dzungaria, Semirechye, Sogd, Maverannahr??? Where did the infa come from that the Mongols did not go the traditional way, but wild places? Disguised??

[Derbes19]

I'm talking about the final section of the route. If not through the Kipchak steppe, then from which side did the Mongols approach Rus'?

[Serg65]

Quote from: Derbes19

If not through the Kipchak steppe, then from which side did the Mongols approach Rus'?

In those days, everyone walked along the roads of the Silk Road, there were no other routes! And this is ... how did the Mongols end up in Hungary, Romania, Croatia and Poland if they were not in Rus' ???? If you were more attentive to the campaigns of the Mongols, you would have noticed that the Russians first met the Mongols on Kalka, to which Jebe and Subedei brought their soldiers from the south, from Persia through Derbent! And only 13 years later, Batu appeared under the walls of Ryazan after the ruin of the Volga Bulgaria!

[Derbes19]

Well, from which side did the Mongols approach Rus'?)

[Ulan.1812]

Probably from Mars. Well, you clearly spelled everything out. Look at the map.

[Serg65]

Quote from: Derbes19

Well, from which side did the Mongols approach Rus'?

From the side of the Kola Bay! Tartars brought them on their icebreakers! I hope there are tartars in your theory?

[Evil eye]

"How the Mongols ended up in Hungary, Romania, Croatia and Poland"

You ask - we answer. The Mongols found themselves in Eastern European countries because they themselves were Eastern Europeans.
If anything, I adhere to the wrong version, which is stated by the author of the article.

[Ulan.1812]

Quote: Evil Eye

"How the Mongols ended up in Hungary, Romania, Croatia and Poland"

You ask - we answer. The Mongols found themselves in Eastern European countries because they themselves were Eastern Europeans.
If anything, I adhere to the wrong version, which is stated by the author of the article.

HURRAH! It remains only to convince the Poles, Hungarians, Romanians, Croats, Germans that they are in fact Mongols.
And what, after all, the Ukrainians write in their textbooks that the French Gauls are actually Ukrainians from Galicia.

[Evil eye]

You have some problems with the perception of the text. Who told you that Poles, Hungarians, Romanians, Croats, Germans are actually Mongols?

[Seal]

Nothing. Soon you will be among the "alternatives", and the Chinese version will become the official version.

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Quote from: Derbes19

I'm talking about the final section of the route. If not through the Kipchak steppe, then from which side did the Mongols approach Rus'?

Volga Bulgaria! If it’s a long time, then three years before the invasion, the Vladimir-Suzdal prince himself went to them for zipuns.

[Derbes19]

If you are talking about the period of the battle on Kalka, then the Mongols approached the Volga Bulgaria after Rus'. If about the subsequent invasion, then all the roads to both the Volga Bulgaria and Rus' go through the Polovtsian steppe.

[Serg65]

Quote from: Derbes19

about the subsequent invasion, then all the roads to both the Volga Bulgaria and Rus' go through the Polovtsian steppe.

Turfan, Gulja, Dzharkent, Chigu, Balasagun, Sairam, Otrar, Gurganj, Urgench, Saksin (Volga delta) and .... Wild field-1/10 of the Polovtsian steppes !!!!
Good luck to you!

[Asiat-s]

And for an hour you have not heard of such a name "Cossack camp" - now Kazakhstan. But it became Kazakhstan only on February 5, 1936. And where did the Cossacks come from in the north of Kazakhstan? Cossacks do not appear by "royal decree, by royal desire". They are formed for many generations and only if they are necessary for a large and centralized state. If you think that tsarist Russia "brought" them there, then back in the nineteenth century this territory was marked on maps as Independent Tartary
Here is a map from 1851. Curiosity.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/1851_Tallis_and_Rapkin_Map_of_Independent_Tartary_%28Central_Asia%29_-_Geographicus_-_IndepndentTartary-tallis-1851.jpg
According to the logic of things, it turns out that in the north of present-day Kazakhstan, the places of deployment of the "Tatar" cavalry could have been located. And from there - at least to the Bulgars, at least to Ukraine (by the way, until a certain time there was Little Tartaria and ... ALSO Cossacks !!! look map https://www.raremaps.com/gallery/detail/22285?view=print), хоть на Русь с Европой. И там как раз, так называемый "шелковый путь" проходил.

[Ulan.1812]

Quote from: Derbes19

Are the Kazakh steppes crowded? In the Kipchak steppes, the military would have perished without a fight. I absolutely do not believe in that nonsense written in the article, but something is wrong with the Tatar-Mongol invasion.

Why didn't the Kipchaks themselves die?

[Evil eye]

Think how much hay a small 12th-13th century village can have. To the horde of many thousands of Mongols.

[Ulan.1812]

Quote: Evil Eye

Think how much hay a small 12th-13th century village can have. To the horde of many thousands of Mongols.

Well, yes ... all the Mongols gathered in the same village.
Well, fools.

[Evil eye]

Yeah, they spread out over the area in order to find more villages, and then, using closed digital communications and GPS navigation, they gathered back into the horde to storm the cities ... And you are a storyteller.

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Quote: Evil Eye

Think how much hay a small 12th-13th century village can have. To the horde of many thousands of Mongols.

A few numbers. But first, let's deal with the conceptual apparatus.
Horde, "horde" - discord. Tumeens from several yurts (hordes) participated in the invasion of Rus', although there were mainly representatives of peoples from the territory of the Jochi ulus, the father of Batu. So the old pre-revolutionary definition of the "national composition" of the "horde" of Batu is more true - the Tatar-Mongols, and not vice versa.
The Horde in a broad sense is a proto-state formation, which did not exist a priori during the invasion of Rus'.
Now for people and horses. Weighted estimates speak of 30 warriors and 000 horses. Which (according to our chroniclers) was "exiled". That is, a strip in width from one hundred to one hundred and fifty kilometers. Taking into account the realities of forest antiquity, detachments from 60 to 000 thousand moved along the rivers. In larger ones, they gathered only at large settlements.
Now about hay and villages.
Peasant horses eat hay every day, and we have winter for 6 months a year. So each village horse, depending on the time of the Tatar misfortune, could provide from 90 to 120 horses of the adversary with a daily ration. If you take into account cattle, then you need to count two normo cows per one normo horse. Similarly with small horns, although the diet is somewhere around 5 to 1 in the case of goats and 10 to 1 for sheep.
So the village is 15 households, and this is up to three dozen horses and foals, 50-60 cows and young animals, excluding the breeding bull - Borka, plus up to two hundred other little things.
In her lungs, she could feed, if not a "horde" or a tumen, then 7200 nuker horses a day.
Good night!

[Evil eye]

>> Horde in a broad sense-a protogosudarsivenoe education, which even a priori during the invasion of Rus' was not.

It is strange, if it was not there, then how was the invasion organized?

>> Now for people and horses. Weighted estimates speak of 30 warriors and 000 horses. Which (according to our chroniclers) was "exiled". That is, a strip in width from one hundred to one hundred and fifty kilometers.

Which, of course, no one noticed and did not try to prevent her. However, given the realities of the armed conflicts last year, one can even believe in it, we have such traditions ...

>> Taking into account the realities of forest antiquity, detachments from 2 to 3 thousand moved along the rivers.

Well, tell me, are there many rivers along the route of the alleged Mongol army. In a strip 150 km wide. If we take a column of 3000 heads of cattle, and a total army of 60000 thousand, then 20 rivers are needed. And not 20 times along the same river, because after passing the 1st detachment there will be nothing to eat there.

>> In larger gathering only in large settlements.

As they gathered, according to maps, according to smoke signals, according to GPS ...

>> So a village of 15 yards

Where do the numbers come from ... As far as I know, in the era of slash-and-burn agriculture, “villages” were mainly farms with 1-2 yards. Do you happen to operate with the realities of the XNUMXth century that way?

>> In the lung could feed, if not the "horde" or tumen, then 7200 nuker horses a day.

Provided that:
villages are located along the rivers at a distance of daytime marches (why? so that the conquerors would be more comfortable?);
that the villagers do not defend themselves in any way and do not try to escape by setting fire to supplies, which will deprive the nukers of a daily ration, or at least nuker horses;
that along the rivers, my mother is a woman, it is generally possible to drive, i.e. roads were cut there and bridges or at least fords were laid, that there are no deep tributaries and ravines (and if we assume that the offensive was carried out only in winter on the ice, then a paradoxical conclusion turns out that the "Mongols" would have risen in the summer - as opposed to the Germans and French )
- in principle, your scheme is quite realistic. Two full-fledged Mongol detachments could pass along the river in one direction, ruining and destroying everything in their path. They would not have been able to return along this road, they would not have been able to receive reinforcements, any delay on the way would have forced them to eat their horses and each other. And to storm large settlements, they would obviously have to turn to the Airborne Forces for help, because the detachment, suddenly resting against some fortified town at the confluence of the rivers, needs to set up camp (the defenders do not counterattack, they have paws), send out messengers to other units (and somehow find them) and wait for these units (eating some supplies that are not there), which will be forced to move along the already devastated route to this town. The townspeople, of course, do not receive any reinforcements, they have paws. After that, a horde of units immediately takes the city by storm (as in Warcraft, hitting buildings with axes, from which they lose hit points and light up) in a couple of days and move on.

>> Good night!

And good morning to you!

[gsev]

Quote from Evil Eye

Think how much hay a small 12th-13th century village can have. To the horde of many thousands of Mongols.

There are 50 horses in the village. The hay is stored for 200 days. The invaders came, fed hay and grain to the horses, and the next day they entered another village. Up to 10 horses will be fed at the cost of starving this village.

[Evil eye]

>> There are 50 horses in the village.

What century village has 50 horses? In the 13th century there was slash-and-burn agriculture, most of the villages were one-two-yard.

>> Hay is stored for 200 days.

Why 200, our winter is shorter, we do not live in the tundra ...

>> the next day they entered another village.

Once again: why are the villages located at a distance of daytime marches, so that it would be more convenient for the conquerors?

>> Up to 10 horses will be fed at the cost of starving this village.

I repeat the conclusion from the previous comment:
“Two full-fledged Mongol detachments could pass along the river in one direction ... They would not be able to return along this road, they would not be able to receive reinforcements, any delay along the way would force them to eat their horses and each other. And to storm large settlements, they would obviously have to turn to the Airborne Forces for help.

[Scientist]

And now I will prove to you just as "scientifically" that there are no Chukchi or Evenks. Summer in the tundra, when at least some kind of vegetation appears, 2-3 months. They couldn't grow anything. Reindeer also cannot live in such conditions, where will they get food when the tundra is covered with snow for 9 months a year? And you can’t prepare hay for them, not from anything. What were the Chukchi supposed to eat? Only on cranberries and cloudberries you will not last long. If there are no deer, then there is no meat. And there are no skins, what to wear and how to hide from the cold? Hence it is obvious that the Chukchi is a myth created by the writers of jokes.

[Lykases1]

Clearly. It's probably better not to say. It would be possible, put five pluses.

[kalibr]

Quote: Lykases1

Clearly. It's probably better not to say. It would be possible, put five pluses.

Yes, he did great. Also +

[Derbes19]

Deer get their food from under the snow, just like the "Mongolian" horses. They just "pick" the snow all day and feed. No one rides them 20 km a day.

[Scientist]

Yes, I know very well. I just gave the argument in the style of the author.
And if you ride, then 20 km is an hour and a half. If you walk at walking speed, then 4 hours. The rest of the time, eat.

[Derbes19]

Let it be yours. For 4 hours of "walking" rehashing, the horse's energy consumption will increase several times, and the time of hoisting will decrease by almost two. But I will not argue with you, well, I have never been a reindeer herder.) But last winter, being on the territory of the former military training ground in the city of Emba, r. Kazakhstan, when I saw herds of horses grazing in the steppe, I asked local shepherds about this issue, since some of them worked as drivers for us. The answer was something like this: "If you want a horse to go somewhere in the winter, then feed it. It will not go anywhere on pasture."

[evgen1221]

Let's add the fact that a person without heating can not move for very long in winter, the coats will not save much if you go for a long time. Walk in the winter even on a horse or on foot across the field to the village fifty kilometers. Frostbite in the presence of a fur coat is provided. And what did these masses of troops warm themselves with, firewood does not grow in the steppes. And dragging them out of the forests is additional horses that also need to be fed, and this dispersion of the masses of troops is stupid because of the search for pasture for animals, and how to manage this horde to the planned general assembly in time, only the closest ones will gather, the rest will have to wait forever. Oops, again with the official story does not fit.

[Ulan.1812]

Quote: evgen1221

Let's add the fact that a person without heating can not move for very long in winter, the coats will not save much if you go for a long time. Walk in the winter even on a horse or on foot across the field to the village fifty kilometers. Frostbite in the presence of a fur coat is provided. And what did these masses of troops warm themselves with, firewood does not grow in the steppes. And dragging them out of the forests is additional horses that also need to be fed, and this dispersion of the masses of troops is stupid because of the search for pasture for animals, and how to manage this horde to the planned general assembly in time, only the closest ones will gather, the rest will have to wait forever. Oops, again with the official story does not fit.

I don’t know how 50 km, but 25 km. in winter, at minus 20, I once had to go along the taiga road.
Nothing, came without frostbite.

[Keer]

Hello, and in winter to go to the mountains for another week of autonomy, that's it. Bezlesa. And how Amundsen before UP. got? Now, of course, there is gas and gasoline, but relatively recently they also carried firewood, all this is not for heating, of course, but for melting water. And all this is quite common. It's about the right clothes. Training and experience.

[Evil eye]

Amundsen got there, and Scott died. Here, read how. I’ll say right away: the first one was better with fuel, he drove the dogs half to death, and then with his comrades he killed some of them and ate. They were heated with kerosene, Scott, as they suggest, the cans were soldered with tin, which collapsed in the cold and ran out of kerosene.

You see how analogies work: if you forget about Scott, then the picture immediately becomes incomplete. But the full picture looks completely different.

[Keer]

Well, Scott is dead, but Amundsen isn't. And I did not die after repeated trips to the mountains in winter. This means that in their consideration of how to survive in the cold and not stick together flippers, the Mongols were closer to Amundsen and me than to Scott.

[Evil eye]

Yes, they have high-quality kerosene containers, not like Scott's, and navigation through the stars was good))))

[kalibr]

Quote from: Derbes19

No one rides them 20 km a day

This is a two hour jump. And then I don't want to feed!

[Derbes19]

You try to explain this to a hungry horse.) Our bickering with you is not worth anything. If horse breeders (shepherds) say that a horse won’t go anywhere without a supply in winter, then it means it is.

[Keer]

Shepherds talk a lot. They also say in the summer that they say it will not work. Know how to be interested.

[zenion]

Derbes19. The horse, before going somewhere, listens to the stories of the wolves, where they hunted well, which means there are good pastures. Only after that the horse will go there.

[zenion]

And also, if there is no food, then the main deer collected kurultai and there they decided which deer to eat. And they did eat it. Then they stood and burped, shameful bastards.

[Leader_Barmaleev]

My friend U. Cherny, firstly, if you ever visited the tundra, you would know that the snow FULLY melts in the tundra in May, and falls in the second half of September, so it’s still five months, and re 2 -3. Secondly, deer are dispersed in relatively small herds over vast areas and move to where there is food, and not where it is necessary to fight. Thirdly, a deer is four times smaller than a horse and is not ridden. And fourthly, the Chukchi and Evenks, in addition to venison, eat fish, walruses, whales, as well as imported canned food and other oranges. So your speech, despite its expressiveness and sarcasm, flies three meters past the cash register.

[Keer]

Generally speaking, the main trade of the Chukchi was raids on the Koryak camps. These were such polar Zulus. And the war of the Russians with the Chukchi, who, the Russians defended under the yasak Koryaks, lasted 200 years. The longest, not counting the Abkhazians. This, by the way, to the question of the impossibility of a successful war of "savages" nomads, and their underdevelopment. Russians were with firearms.

[Evil eye]

But it was a guerrilla war. The locals acted in their native element, they had a local advantage in numbers (due to the fact that the Russians, unlike the fabulous Mongols, could not drive a ten thousandth army into the tunda), the native partisans could purposefully cut off the supply (which the Mongol type did not need , and all other conquerors need).

At the same time, even gaining military victories, even major ones, the natives could not hold back the expansionist onslaught of more economically developed peoples. "Women are still giving birth", industry will give even more perfect guns - and the conquest will begin anew. Neither the Chukchi, nor the Indians, nor the Maori, nor the Zulus could attack the base cities of the developed neighbors.
Therefore, the limit of the native's ability is to knock out the normal conditions of coexistence from the colonialists.

At the same time, _nomads_ could indeed conduct offensive operations if they received supplies from somewhere else through trade.

[Locksmith]

Did I miss something ? Do the Chukchi already go on military campaigns for 10000 km? And a crowd of 30000 people?

[Evil eye]

The man tried to defend the official version, but defended it so much that he refuted

[Keer]

Apparently they missed it, if from the Caspian Sea to Ryazan, in your opinion, 10 thousand kilometers, then the Chukchi on pirogues could invade Sumatra. The fact is that the information should first be carefully studied. Then the wrong premises will not arise about "the Mongols who came from nowhere, who rode 10 thousand kilometers and burned Ryazan" And the refutation of this self-made nonsense will not lead to the "conclusion" that, de, there was no Batu.

[Evil eye]

The Chukchi did not need this, but the southerners on rafts somehow got to Easter Island and the Hawaiian Islands.

[Ulan.1812]

Quote: U. Cheny

And now I will prove to you just as "scientifically" that there are no Chukchi or Evenks. Summer in the tundra, when at least some kind of vegetation appears, 2-3 months. They couldn't grow anything. Reindeer also cannot live in such conditions, where will they get food when the tundra is covered with snow for 9 months a year? And you can’t prepare hay for them, not from anything. What were the Chukchi supposed to eat? Only on cranberries and cloudberries you will not last long. If there are no deer, then there is no meat. And there are no skins, what to wear and how to hide from the cold? Hence it is obvious that the Chukchi is a myth created by the writers of jokes.

Useless. Alternatives at least have a stake on your head. And who said that the Horde horses ate only pasture.
In the captured settlements, food was collected and accounted for.

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Hence it is obvious that the Chukchi is a myth created by the writers of jokes.

Unlike Koteek, about which jokes are not told. Conclusion - there are cats! Chukchi no!!!
The solution for the Chukchi is to come up with a joke about cats, so that the latter would not be familiar !!!
No offense Chukchi cool guys!!!

[Keer]

Not only that, not only are the Chukchi dubious, but the existence of horses, too. Judge for yourself. All large herbivores are artiodactyls, and the only artiodactyl that is reliably known to science is the zebra, which is rumored to live in Africa, an animal that is vicious and thermophilic, not amenable to training. And, since, as you can see, it is far from Africa outside our window, then there is nowhere for the so-called horse to feed, and also to warm up. Most likely, the so-called horses are various animals dressed up by the British and the Pope, from elk to dogs, depending on the size of the so-called. "horses". And since there are no horses, then Khan Genghis was not there either.

[Seal]

Another moment. Let's calculate the length of the marching order of these notorious "Mongol-Tatars", who move in the number of either 300 thousand people, or 400 thousand people, and each has 3 horses - the one on which he rides, the one that carries the luggage and that , which for battle, went in the WINTER along the forest road to Vladimir. Our forest road even now is a maximum of 2 riders nearby can pass. And that's not everywhere. And the Mongols have a million horses. 2 horses in a row means 500 thousand rows of horses on a forest road. The length of the body of a Mongolian horse is one and a half meters, with a neck and head - at least 2 meters, the distance between them - well, let it be at least 1 meter. In total, we have a column of "Mongolian cavalry" with a length of 1 kilometers !!!

More. From the notes of Przhevalsky. This is about camels, but the same can be attributed to horses.

The steppe or desert, with its boundless expanse, constitutes the native habitat of the camel; here he feels quite happy, like his master, the Mongol. Both of them flee from settled life, as from the greatest enemy, and the camel loves wide freedom so much that, put in a corral at least for the best food, he quickly loses weight and finally dies.
In general, a camel is a very peculiar animal. With regard to promiscuous food and moderation, he can serve as a model, but this is true only for the desert. Bring a camel to good pastures, such as we are accustomed to seeing in our countries, and instead of eating and getting fat, he will become thinner every day. We experienced this when we came with our camels to the excellent alpine meadows of the Gan-su mountains. Camels spoiled when they were deprived of the food they had in the desert. Here, the favorite foods of the described animal are: onion and budargana, followed by dyrisun, low wormwood or saxaul in Alashan and kharmyk, especially when its sweet-salty berries ripen.
In general, salt is absolutely necessary for camels, and they eat with great pleasure a white salt coating, or the so-called gujir, which abundantly covers all salt marshes and often protrudes from the soil, even on the grassy steppes of Mongolia. In the absence of gujir, camels eat, although with less benefit to themselves, pure salt, which they must be given two or three times a month. If the described animals have not had salt for a long time, then they begin to lose weight, even if the food was in abundance. Then camels often take white stones in their mouths and chew them, mistaking them for lumps of salt. The latter, especially if the camels have not eaten it for a long time, acts on them as a laxative. The absence of gudjir and solonetsous plants can probably explain the fact that camels cannot live on good pastures in mountainous countries. Besides, for them there is no wide expanse of desert, in which our animal roams in freedom all summer long.

Both Mongolian camels and Mongolian horses are typical endemics. Which, outside of their habitual habitat for thousands of years, survive very poorly. If they survive at all.

[kalibr]

Quote: Seal

either 300 thousand people, or 400 thousand people

Where are these numbers taken from?

[Derbes19]

Well, divide by 10. And nothing will change.

[novel66]

The last digits - 30 thousand! And then a million horses will simply devour the owners, starving

[Derbes19]

If 30 thousand left Mongolia, then it is unlikely that more than 300 would have reached Rus'.)

[Seal]

Quote: kalibr

Where are these numbers taken from?

These are not the biggest numbers yet. . Plano P. Carpini, for example (do you believe him, don't you?) determines the number of Batu's troops, who besieged Kyiv, at 600 thousand people. The Hungarian chronicler Simon claims that "500 thousand armed" invaded Hungary with Batu.
If we take the message of the Hungarian monk Julian to the papal legate about the Mongol-Tatars. Most often they mention the option that ends with the words: “I don’t write anything about the number of their entire troops.”
However, there are several lists of this message, and here, for example, list F, a postscript was added in a different handwriting: "The Mongol army consists of 240 thousand slaves not of their law and 135 thousand of the best warriors of their law in the ranks."
Are you enough?

[Ulan.1812]

Quote: kalibr

Quote: Seal

either 300 thousand people, or 400 thousand people

Where are these numbers taken from?

We know from fantasy. Where else. At that time, 40-50 thousand is a huge army
It is enough to look at the figures of the famous battles of Cressy, Poitiers, Grunwald.

[Ulan.1812]

Quote: Seal

Another moment. Let's calculate the length of the marching order of these notorious "Mongol-Tatars", who move in the number of either 300 thousand people, or 400 thousand people, and each has 3 horses - the one on which he rides, the one that carries the luggage and that , which for battle, went in the WINTER along the forest road to Vladimir. Our forest road even now is a maximum of 2 riders nearby can pass. And that's not everywhere. And the Mongols have a million horses. 2 horses in a row means 500 thousand rows of horses on a forest road. The length of the body of a Mongolian horse is one and a half meters, with a neck and head - at least 2 meters, the distance between them - well, let it be at least 1 meter. In total, we have a column of "Mongolian cavalry" with a length of 1 kilometers !!!

More. From the notes of Przhevalsky. This is about camels, but the same can be attributed to horses.

The steppe or desert, with its boundless expanse, constitutes the native habitat of the camel; here he feels quite happy, like his master, the Mongol. Both of them flee from settled life, as from the greatest enemy, and the camel loves wide freedom so much that, put in a corral at least for the best food, he quickly loses weight and finally dies.
In general, a camel is a very peculiar animal. With regard to promiscuous food and moderation, he can serve as a model, but this is true only for the desert. Bring a camel to good pastures, such as we are accustomed to seeing in our countries, and instead of eating and getting fat, he will become thinner every day. We experienced this when we came with our camels to the excellent alpine meadows of the Gan-su mountains. Camels spoiled when they were deprived of the food they had in the desert. Here, the favorite foods of the described animal are: onion and budargana, followed by dyrisun, low wormwood or saxaul in Alashan and kharmyk, especially when its sweet-salty berries ripen.
In general, salt is absolutely necessary for camels, and they eat with great pleasure a white salt coating, or the so-called gujir, which abundantly covers all salt marshes and often protrudes from the soil, even on the grassy steppes of Mongolia. In the absence of gujir, camels eat, although with less benefit to themselves, pure salt, which they must be given two or three times a month. If the described animals have not had salt for a long time, then they begin to lose weight, even if the food was in abundance. Then camels often take white stones in their mouths and chew them, mistaking them for lumps of salt. The latter, especially if the camels have not eaten it for a long time, acts on them as a laxative. The absence of gudjir and solonetsous plants can probably explain the fact that camels cannot live on good pastures in mountainous countries. Besides, for them there is no wide expanse of desert, in which our animal roams in freedom all summer long.

Both Mongolian camels and Mongolian horses are typical endemics. Which, outside of their habitual habitat for thousands of years, survive very poorly. If they survive at all.

And let's not count this bullshit.
Firstly, Siberian horse breeds feel quite comfortable in Europe.
Let me remind you that the same Mongolia during the Second World War delivered hundreds of thousands of horses to the Red Army. In your opinion, they immediately had to die from unusual conditions.
Secondly, who told you that the Mongols walked in one continuous column?
Maybe stop making idiots out of them?
They were in production, dividing the army into parts in several directions and uniting for battles and the capture of large cities.
All this they practiced on the hunt. figures 300 thousand, 400 no one accepts for a long time.
So you initially laying the wrong data, make the wrong conclusions.

[Derbes19]

Maybe stop making idiots out of them?
They were in production, dividing the army into parts in several directions and uniting for battles and the capture of large cities. Such tricks, even with modern means of communication, are extremely complex. In those days it was almost impossible. Have you thought about the issues of logistics, communications and intelligence?

[Ulan.1812]

Quote from: Derbes19

Maybe stop making idiots out of them?
They were in production, dividing the army into parts in several directions and uniting for battles and the capture of large cities. Such tricks, even with modern means of communication, are extremely complex. In those days it was almost impossible. Have you thought about the issues of logistics, communications and intelligence?

You didn't think this. There are no other methods of communication other than radio .. Messengers were also used in the Second World War.

[Konstantin Shevchenko]

The problem is that the Mongols did not have a Prozhivalsky horse, there were no English horses. There was no horse at all capable of carrying a person. In America, horses were generally seen after the Columbus swim. You probably saw enough films and paintings written after 500 years. There is another problem of the road, they are not there either. There were no autobahns, and there were no railways either. Roads were exclusively river and sea. Historians have long passed into the category of dreamers. Usually they are the same amateurs, because. their native theme often has nothing in common older than 200 years. Passed the topic for a tick in the student's record book.

[Keer]

The problem is that the Mongols did not have Prozhivalsky's horse,

Przhevalsky, he, and not about Pri Zhevalsky. The Przewalski's horse has nothing to do with the Mongolian horse, and neither do English horses. The Mongolian horse can gallop with a rider in the saddle 10 km across the steppe. This is a very hardy horse. Going at 60 - 100 km/day is not a problem at all. The Mongols walked through the subordinate Samarkand, Bukhara and Derbent, and only on good grass right across the steppe.

[Keer]

WINTER went along the forest road to Vladimir

along the frozen Oka, and then along the Klyazma, they could pass. In addition, the Mongol had excellent command and control, and intelligence. they moved separately, using guides, and leaving for a rendezvous at a designated place and time. And there were no more than 20 thousand of them, which is a lot for the Middle Ages. And very little for today. Two cavalry divisions of the USSR in terms of the number of just something. The nonsense about the impossibility of such an advance from the Khingan to the Volga and the Don is refuted by the repeated migrations of Kalmyks to China, with women, belongings and sheep.

[Konstantin Shevchenko]

Those. now the Mongols unite with yurts, then they will easily take Moscow on foot. Have you ever seen how nomads or natives live? Even now they will exchange vodka with bread for skins and gold. Without iron and a horse, damn conquerors)) The horses that the Mongols now have are modern breeds. Previously, the horses of the Mongols were not able, not only to bear the burden of war, but also the rider himself)

[Keer]

Those. now the Mongols with yurts unite, then they will easily take Moscow

You, as it were, fundamentally do not want to see the difference between the settled population in the post-industrial era and in the Middle Ages? And between the modern Mongols and the 13th century? Asian horses are quite suitable - I rode Kyrgyz and Tuvan horses on the border with Mongolia, by the way. You can post folk games in Mongolia on the Internet. To see the horses in the photo.

Previously, the horses of the Mongols were not able, not only to bear the burden of war, but also the rider himself)

STE, excuse me, a fierce blizzard. Where do you take it from? About foot Mongolian nomads.

[Konstantin Shevchenko]

These are modern horses, games can be watched in Kazakhstan. The Mongols do not have European horses, like the inhabitants of America before Columbus, even the wheel was not known in America. And you are building great battles, the film Avatar is even more honest, fantasy is signed there. Where did you get the information from, from the movie? ;^) And the Mongols with the Tatars are not biblical Farsees. If you are interested, read about the natives in the books of the 19th century by Russian authors, this is not the 13th wild age for you) You can, of course, build theories that there was a civilization before and it died as a result of a natural disaster, even amazing artifacts are found, but such a civilization does not fit the life of ordinary nomads who have no idea not only about technology and the significance of gold, but also about administrative resources. All your arguments are just the opinion of the authors of the 19th century, there are no authentic artifacts for the 13th century, including written ones. The paintings were allegedly copied from the originals of writing, published no earlier than the 18th century. The question is simple, where are the originals from which the authors of the 19th century rewrote, because they all write as one that they had the originals of ancient texts?

[Keer]

These are modern horses.

Mongolian horse breeds have not changed much for a thousand years. This is confirmed by genetic analysis. In addition, nothing prevented the use of captured horses. Before Columbus, Mesoamerica had the beginning of the Bronze Age. What does the Iron Age in Eurasia have to do with it. The wheel and in Eurasia appeared and developed in the bronze age with a knitted process
domestication and selection of draft animals. In America, animals that can be harnessed have not yet been bred. By the way, they knew the wheel and used it in children's toys.

[Keer]

The question is simple, where are the originals from which the authors of the 19th century rewrote, because they all write as one that they had the originals of ancient texts?

and let's do this with this question. You give a source of the 19th century in which the author refers that he has an ancient document in his hands, then it will be possible to understand what it is about. Sources early 19th century, please, Rubruk written 13th century, printed 16th century.

[Keer]

R. P. Khrapachevsky
MONGOLIAN AND CHINESE SOURCES
XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries ABOUT EASTERN EUROPE
here is a short overview of Chinese sources, with a digest.

[Keer]

The question is simple, where are the originals from which the authors of the 19th century copied,

synodal parchment copy of the First Novgorod Chronicle, will it suit? 13-15 century (dates of physical writing), you can look at the Historical Museum.

[Keer]

And, so, with horses, sources until the 19th century, they sort of figured it out. Let's add archaeological data here. The bottom line is your axiom that, de, the nomads are backward, and therefore there could be no conquests of the Mongols. This postulate does not stand up to scrutiny. Hunu, Arabs, ancient Turks, and even earlier in bronze, Achaeans, and then Dorians, for example.

[Evil eye]

>> Let's add here the archaeological data.

They are not.

>> Hunu, Arabs, ancient Turks, and even earlier in bronze, Achaeans, and then Dorians,

Arabs are not nomads ... More precisely, not all Arabs are nomads, but only Bedouins. Achaeans and Dorians are not nomads. The territory of their conquests is quite realistic, except for the Arabs, who most likely also threw mythologies into the asset.

>> along the frozen Oka, and then along the Klyazma,

And what to eat?

>> the Mongols had excellent command and control, and intelligence

Not otherwise than GPS and closed digital satellite communications? I’m interested in nature, what kind of command and control could be in the 13th century, except for bossy cursing and musical instruments at a direct hearing distance.

>> leaving for a rendezvous at a designated place and time.

Precise GPS.

>> Nonsense about the impossibility of such an advance from the Khingan to the Volga and the Don, is refuted by the repeated migrations of Kalmyks to China, with women belongings and sheep.

That's the THING, that the Kalmyks slowly wandered with women, belongings and sheep, conducting economic activities along the way and not storming the city in the process. And the "Mongols" ran the same way with one army without belongings, it is not clear where they were getting supplies from.
Well, my, with the same success it can be said that the Germans near Moscow in the winter should not have had any problems with supplies, because the Chukchi in the tundra did not have them.

[Keer]

That's the THING, that the Kalmyks slowly wandered with women, belongings and sheep, conducting economic activities along the way and not storming the city in the process. And the "Mongols" ran the same path with one army without belongings, it is not clear where they received supplies

They could, the Kalmyks passed from the Volga a season before China, but that's not even the point. This is more of an academic question. In real history, Batu did not jump through any steppe "out of nowhere". The movement of the Mongols to the west is a thirty-year history of the successive capture and subjugation of the Naimans, Kereites, the Karakhanid state, the state of Khorezmshahs, access to Derbent and the Transcaucasus, in pursuit of the Polovtsy, the invasion of the Crimea, the defeat of the Polovtsy, the exit of Subedei and Jebe to Kalka and the defeat of the united Russian troops at 22. Destruction of Bulgaria. Further after kurultai 35 years
a series of campaigns based on the supply lines of the captured states. He entered through Derbent, and not through northern Kazakhstan and the Siberian steppes. Regarding the zhps, do you think that until the middle of the 19th century, the troops were controlled only in line of sight? Eat the same as they eat now in Vladimir. If the Achaeans are not nomads, then what settled state are they representatives of?

[Evil eye]

>> Could, Kalmyks and a season before China from the Volga passed

When, in what quantity, on what route, links to the studio ...

At the same time, reflect on the difference in the concepts of "pass" and "conquer". You can walk through the desert space anywhere, naturally, with a small detachment of people according to the area of ​​pastures.

>> In real history

How do you know it's real?

>> Batu did not jump through any steppe "it is not clear from where".

Start with the first stage - nomination from Mongolia itself.

>> The movement of the Mongols to the west is a thirty-year history of consistent capture and subjugation

Where is the evidence that this happened. I might as well list Daenerys' conquests from Game of Thrones, but that doesn't make them real.

>> a series of campaigns based on the supply lines of the captured states.

It's fine. What are the supply lines between Mongolia and the Caucasus? There were no supply lines there, at best low-capacity caravan trade routes.

>> He went through Derbent

Derbent is the coast of the Caspian Sea. When the steppes managed to retrain as seafarers, where did they get the boats from, how did they land ...

>> Do you think that until the middle of the 19th century, troops were controlled only in line of sight?

I beg your pardon, you think so, because since nothing changes in your logistics from the 13th to the 19th century, then in the means of communication, apparently, too ...

Because otherwise you would know, for example, about the heliograph, and would not ask such questions.

>> Eat too, which is now eaten in Vladimir.

In Vladimir, they eat the harvest harvested in a year. What did the respected Tatar-Mongolian partners manage to plant and harvest while they were traveling?

>> If the Achaeans are not nomads, then what kind of settled state are they representatives of?

Hello. Mycenaean, Athenian and further down the list. Although, most likely, the history of these states is also heavily mythologized.

[Keer]

Excuse me, but you have some kind of porridge here. Tongut escape about Kolmyks.
I have already listed the sources on the Mongol conquests.
Mycenae, damn it, in Greece, and I'm talking about the conquest of Greece by the Achaeans, to all Mycenae, Greece itself. They, the Achaeans, are not the original people of the Balkans, but the conquerors, about where the cuming of de griik, so to speak. In short, I'm tired, with Derbent and the sea
landing, you finally finished me off, buy yourself a physical map of the world. stick further in samslnlvyh.

[Evil eye]

>> Tongut escape about Kolmyks.

Well, yes, well, yes, a great example ...
“This campaign turned into a national tragedy for the Kalmyks. On the way, the Kalmyk ethnic group, small in number, lost more than 100 people killed in battles, from wounds, cold, hunger, diseases, as well as captured, lost almost all livestock and property - the main wealth. ..In total, no more than 000-70 thousand Kalmyks reached the Qing border ... But there is also a sharply different point of view about the number of Kalmyks who survived, for example, modern Kazakh sources estimate the number of those who reached 75-15 thousand ... they did the journey from the Volga to China in seven seconds half months Kalmyks were met by Qing troops and officials"

But the Kalmyks would teach history - not only would they come in full strength, but they would immediately take the Qin officials by the ears and ask them to show them the way to the Forbidden City itself!
But, alas, we live in the real world, not a fairy tale. And this campaign is an excellent example of the fact that if the "Mongols" took the same path in the opposite direction, then some of them could crawl to the territory of Rus', where they would immediately be taken warm. Well, maybe it would be generous to settle somewhere, we are no worse than the Chinese.

>> Mycenae, damn it, in Greece, and I'm talking about the conquest of Greece by the Achaeans, to all Mycenae, Greece itself.

Oh, you're talking about it. The Achaeans could not have conquered Greece if they were nomads, because without boats they would not have been able to get to the Greek islands, and boats need developed crafts, and for this, if not urban, then at least a developed settled society is needed. And historians themselves do not know the details, because it was at the turn of the XNUMXrd and XNUMXnd millennia BC. e. Try to find better documented examples.
However, in principle, nomads could have been included in the Achaean conquerors - just as there are nomads in the Chukchi detachments, whom settled Chukchi fishermen take as a share when they go on campaigns. Moreover, kayaks are made by fishermen, not nomads. This has never happened before, and here it is again.

>> Sources for the Mongol conquests, I have already listed.

Did you read these sources yourself or just looked at the list somewhere? So I quoted you the Novgorod Chronicle, where Mongolia can only be pulled by the ears, and the rest of the sources are the same.

>> In short, I'm tired, with Derbent and amphibious assault

Well, that is, you have nothing to object to on this point?

[Keer]

, you are talking about it. The Achaeans could not have conquered Greece if they were nomads, because without watercraft

Damn, Greece, mainly located on the peninsula, about the impossibility of nomads to reach the islands, tell the Japanese, at the same time
ask them where the term "kamikaze" came from. Regarding Derbent, I said, buy a map, and then you may discover how you can get there from Iran (the state of Khorezmshahs in the 13th century) without using oars and boats. Also, you using physical. map, you may be able to understand why the wall in Derbent is not along the coastline, as it should have been built from the Marines, but across. And why Derbent is called "Iron Gates" in chronicles.
From the first chronicle it follows that the chroniclers did not know where the Mongols came from, and who they are, what they are called. But this is not the problem of the Mongols.

[Keer]

Did you read these sources yourself or just looked at the list somewhere? So I quoted you the Novgorod Chronicle, where Mongolia can only be pulled by the ears, and the rest of the sources are the same.

Here, by the way, there was a rational grain in your reasoning. You no longer deny the large-scale invasion of Rus' in 36-41. Now, using the method of reverse time induction, we will try to understand whether or not there was an invasion of the "unknowns" into the possessions of Khorezmshah in 18. And there, you see, we will get to Onon and Karulen.

[Evil eye]

>>Blin, Greece, located mainly on the peninsula

The Mycenaean civilization certainly also occupied the islands, so it is impossible to get there without boats.
There is, of course, the option that the nomads first occupied in the 2nd millennium BC. peninsulas, mastered them and then independently sailed to the islands (although this is unlikely). Naturally, this has nothing to do with the Mongols, because by the time the Achaeans settled the peninsular part of Greece, there were no developed states there. With the same success, one can cite a chronicle of the wars of the North American Indians.

>> about the impossibility of nomads to reach the islands, tell the Japanese

Well, imagine what he said. What's next?

>> where did the term "kamikaze" come from

"divine wind", the name of the typhoon that twice destroyed the ships of the Mongol armada of Khan Kublai on the outskirts of Japan

Naturally, this is just a legend that proves the existence of Mongolian submarines ... Sorry, ships, just like the legend of centauromachia proves the existence of centaurs.

>> Regarding Derbent, I said, buy a map, and then you may discover how you can get there from Iran

You can get in. Only this has nothing to do with the "supply lines of the conquered states", because no one in their right mind would wander around the sea if the supply lines went along it.
You can leave the partisan area, blow up the railway with the German echelon and return back with scaffolding. And then to be surprised: why the hell did the Germans need it at all, but here we were a hundred people walking through the forest without any echelons, why a million Germans can’t do the same.
But it can't. And all the stories about how the armadas of the steppes rounded the sea, ran along the mountain paths, took the fortified city, sandwiched between the mountains and the sea, and then in the amount of one hundred thousand people mingled with Timur - this is an unconfirmed urban mythology, which is also nothing is confirmed. The myth of the conquest of Dagestan is confirmed by the myth of the conquest of Rus', that myth of the conquest of China, and so on - and there is zero material evidence.
And all the allegations that the Mongols used the means of communication of the conquered countries are broken by the simple consideration that in the case of Dagestan, such means of communication were the sea, and the Mongols allegedly did not come from the sea.

>> why the wall in Derbent is not built along the coastline, as it should be, from the Marines, but across.

And that is why the "marines" in theory could take the city, but the newcomers from the steppe could not.

>> From the first chronicle it follows that the chroniclers did not know where the Mongols came from, and who they are, what they are called. But this is not the problem of the Mongols.


>> Here, by the way, there was a rational grain in your reasoning. You no longer deny the large-scale invasion of Rus' in 36-41.

One thousand two hundred 36-41, and the degree of "scale" still needs to be clarified.

>>Now, using the method of reverse time induction, let's try to understand whether or not there was an invasion of the "unknowns" into the possessions of Khorezmshah in 18.

Let's say it was. What's next?

[Keer]

And that is why the "marines" in theory could take the city, but the newcomers from the steppe could not.

so this wall, for your information, is not at all to protect the city, but so, burn further

[Keer]

Let's say it was. What's next?

Good. The fact that it, the invasion, was from the border with the Uighur Karakhanid state, is there any objection?

[Keer]

You can get in. Only this has nothing to do with the "supply lines of the conquered states",

your problem is that you first invent, and then try to "fit" reality under the fiction. Imagine that all the caravan routes went exactly around the Caspian, and sailed along it only if they wanted to get into the Volga basin, from the "Varyag to the Persians", and vice versa. By the way, what is there with the "kamikaze" and the Japanese, did you find out? and why Derbent is an "iron gate" Where and from where is the gate?

[Evil eye]

>> it, the invasion, was from the border with the Uighur Karakhanid state, no objections?

Of course have

>> you first invent, and then under the fiction trying to " podognat" reality.

I also invented the law of Archimedes, I confess

>> Imagine that all caravan routes

Try to understand the difference between a caravan route, a postal road and an army supply line - you will discover a lot of new things for yourself. At the same time, you can meditate on the expression "bandwidth"

In general, everything is like this with the officials: the Mongols, of course, could pass. The Kalmyks, on the other hand, passed (having lost from 50 to 80% of their numbers), which means that the victorious Mongol army could pass; the caravans passed, which means that the victorious army, several thousand times larger than the caravan, will also crawl through ... It remains only to recall the anecdote about Anka the machine gunner: "Vasily Ivanovich, the head crawled through, but the pelvis does not crawl through."

>> By the way, what's with the "kamikaze" and the Japanese, did you find out?

We found out two things: the Japanese have a tale about the Mongolian aircraft carrier (crossed out) fleet, and the officials are forced to use such tales as evidence of their religion

>> and why Derbent "iron gates" Where and where are the gates from?

The Iron Gates, another name is the Caspian Gates (ancient Greek Κάσπιαι πύλαι) is a historical and geographical name, which from the time of ancient civilizations denoted two narrow coastal passages, access to which opened the way to the northern primitive communal nomadic tribes to the south to rich agricultural civilizations of ancient Persia, Media and Mesopotamia

What's next?

[Keer]

Of course have

Then where did the troops invade Khorezmshah in 18, in your opinion?

Try to understand the difference between a caravan route, a postal road, and an army supply line.

what is it, this difference, formulate.

In general, everything is like this with the officials: the Mongols, of course, could pass. The Kalmyks, on the other hand, passed (having lost from 50 to 80% of their numbers), which means that the victorious Mongol army could pass; the caravans passed, which means that the victorious army, numbering several thousand times more than the caravan, also climbed through

That is, now, in your opinion, it turns out that two three tumens could not only "jump across the steppe from the onon to the Volga", but also drive along the road from Khorezm to Derbent? if he could not transfer his troops further than the nearest villages.

What's next?

now understand who the wall in Derbent is from, and why is it across? From whom did the "rich agricultural" defend themselves there in the 12th and 13th centuries? Using "paths" to supply their troops?

[Evil eye]

>> Then where did the troops invade Khorezmshah v18, in your opinion?

For example, from Eastern Europe))

>> >> Try to understand the difference between the caravan route, the postal road and the supply line of the army

>> what is it, this difference, formulate.

*Deep breath*, okay, of course, I see that the officials are like little children, but I'll try to play Captain Obvious. Let's try it step by step so you can get it right.

There is such a thing as throughput. An example from physics: the throughput of pipes, for example. The straw for a cocktail has one, the water pipes have another. Is it possible to supply, for example, a Moscow microdistrict (fully populated with people, and not Mongolian camels, which receive water only from this source, and do not run to the Moscow River with a yoke) through a pipe with a diameter of a cocktail tube? Obviously it is impossible, despite the fact that on a summer day you can slowly suck out half a liter of juice through this tube. Why not, you can calculate mathematically by multiplying the diameter of the tube by the speed of water passage per day and comparing it with the need for water of the inhabitants, which we get by multiplying the daily need of the inhabitants for water by the number of inhabitants themselves.

Is everything clear at this stage? Objections, questions?

>> That is, now, in your opinion, it turns out that two or three tumens could not only "jump through the steppe from onon to the Volga",

Like the Kalmyks: they could reach, but they could not conquer anyone.

>> but also to drive along the road from Khorezm to Derbent?

Having broken up into caravan groups, trading along the way, provided that the local authorities will graciously let them pass and not rip off too much baksheesh and duties. In principle, it will not work to conquer anyone, and it will be good if the authorities allow weapons to be carried - this is the only way merchants from all over the world could travel. In order to drive 100 people to Derbent in this manner, they would, however, have to sell all their cattle, because they have nothing else to trade, and at the same time sell themselves into slavery.

>> And how, then the poor Khorezmshah lived before the Mongols, if he could not transfer his troops further than the nearest villages.

I do not even know. Probably, how did they live in Europe - with feudal fragmentation, vassalage, building relationships on the principles of vassalage, properly contracted marriages and religious propaganda, with large armies of 5 thousand people? However, this is the mysterious east, there are centralized despotisms all around, which, however, evaporate somewhere by the 20th century, and the people again return to tribal remnants.

>> It turns out, and the Macedonian crap, and solid lies?

In medieval literature, the builder of the Derbent Gate was called Alexander the Great, and they themselves were called Alexandrov. Modern historians deny this. Is it a complete lie? And if there is a lie, then why is another infa about him not a lie?
For the most part yes, lies. Well, or politically correct speaking, a beautiful legend. Macedonia is a complete analogue of Mongolia, a small poor country that allegedly suddenly conquered half the world, leaving no material monuments of its power, and just as quickly pissed away everything.
However, the Indian campaign of Alexander, most likely, could well have been, if we consider that his base was not Macedonia, but, for example, the Eastern Roman Empire, and the troops were supplied either by sea or along the Euphrates.

>> now understand from whom the wall in Derbent, and why is it across?

From neighboring peoples, including nomads. The key word is "neighbours".

>> From whom " rich zemledelcheskie" Defended there in the 12th-13th century?
Using "paths" to supply their troops?

What does the path have to do with it, if someone attacked this city, it would come from Ciscaucasia along the sea coast, there are no paths.

[Keer]

There is such a thing as bandwidth... Is everything clear at this stage?

You see, you lack specifics. Now, if, for example, you would say that, they say, the road from Khorezm to Derbent had such and such characteristics that did not allow the transfer of troops along it, or their supply, and would lead, for example, another road of the same period, somewhere, in another place, along which it would be possible to supply, again, with its physical parameters, and confirmed facts of transfer, with sources, or maybe with personal measurements on the ground. Then, b, there would be no price for your reasoning. And so STE spherical horse.

The Indian campaign of Alexander, most likely, could well have been, if we consider that his base was not Macedonia, but, for example, the Eastern Roman Empire, and the troops were supplied either by sea or along the Euphrates.

excellent, but what ocean does the Euphrates flow into? Did he tell you, buy a map of the world, or do you think Alexander had the Suez Canal? Then, in the 4th century BC, you may have the Eastern Roman Empire, but there cannot be a suitable road from Derbent to Samarkand in our 13th century. Are you, for an hour, not a Hyperborean, Great Tatar, or other Fomenkovite? Tell me right away, then, I instantly agree with all your arguments.

I do not even know.

here, this is the right thought. We must study, my friend, learning the light.

What does the path have to do with it, if someone attacked this city, it would come from Ciscaucasia along the sea coast, there are no paths

Well, in, the Scythians would come, for example, from the north, to Derbent, and then only goat paths, but wastelands, as they are to developed Persia
get there? Everything would have died along the way, first they would have eaten the horses, and then a friend to a friend. And what for then, tell me, fence the wall? By the way, you don’t recognize the Ptolemid dynasty either? Cleopatra, there, and so on?...

[Evil eye]

>> You see, you lack specifics.

Oh, that's it, you have not yet given any specifics regarding the evidence of the existence of the Mongol Empire and other historical phantoms, only references to various legends and muddy analogies.

Well, okay, have your way. How many people do you think went from Khorezm to Derbent? A hundred thousand, a million...

>> the road from Khorezm to Derbent had such and such characteristics that did not allow the transfer of troops along it, or their supply

I specifically said that the road from Khorezm to Derbent, in your opinion, was overland, which, in the absence of at least a steam engine, completely excludes the possibility of moving large armies of conquerors.

>> and would bring, as an example, another road of the same period, somewhere, in another place, along which it would be possible to supply, again, with its physical parameters, and confirmed facts of the transfer

Another road in this region is called the "Caspian Sea" and if you want facts of the transfer, I can recommend the history of the Roman Empire, they had a road called "Mediterranean Sea" with similar characteristics

>> great, but what kind of ocean does the Euphrates flow into?

In Indian. But the Euphrates can be reached by land from the Mediterranean Sea.
I know what you will say: if a few hundred people can walk or on horseback 200 kilometers, then a few hundred thousand will be able to walk ten times as much; and if Vasya was able to walk two steps to the toilet, then the Russian army will be able to cross the Gobi desert on foot, and if the conductor Vesna Vulovich survived the plane crash, then you can jump without parachutes, and therefore parachutes should be taken away from the Airborne Forces

>> He told you, buy a map of the world, or do you think Alexander had the Suez Canal?

The Suez Canal does not lead to the Euphrates

>> Then, in the 4th century BC you may have the Eastern Roman Empire, but there can be no suitable road from Derbent to Samarkand in the 13th century of our era.

Elderberry in the garden, and uncle in Kyiv. How is one related to the other? Why can there be an Eastern Roman Empire in the official history of the 4th century BC, but there were no good roads in Australia in the 15th century? I don't know, it's a mystery. Probably because states develop unevenly.
I’ll ask an even more insidious question: why are there four-lane roads in Moscow, and bad roads in Chukotka

>> Well, in, the Scythians would come, for example, from the north, to Derbent, and then only goat paths, but wastelands, as they are to developed Persia
get there? Everything would have died along the way, first they would have eaten the horses, and then a friend to a friend. And what for then, tell me, fence the wall?

Exactly
Obviously, these fortifications took their modern form much later, when the city was no longer threatened by the Scythians.

[Keer]

How many people do you think went from Khorezm to Derbent? A hundred thousand, a million...

three tumens, no more than 30 thousand, not in my opinion, but according to the official version of the story with which you set out to fight, according to me, another tumen would be enough for my eyes.

which, in the absence of at least a steam engine, completely eliminates the possibility

I wonder how Suvorov dragged locomotives across the Alps?

Obviously, these fortifications took their modern form much later, when the city was no longer threatened by the Scythians.

Do you think the 5th century AD was later than the 13th? An interesting idea, it explains a lot ....

The Suez Canal does not lead to the Euphrates

You see, even if there was a Suez Canal near the Macedonian, it would only lead to the Red Sea, and there you still have to go around the Arabian Peninsula, and India is not on the Euphrates, but on the Ganges, there is still sawing and sawing along the Indian Ocean. I told you that the study of a physical map is a good thing. You've already made progress. And buy another map, this one is not suitable if it is 200 km from the Euphrates to the Mediterranean Sea

[Evil eye]

no more than 30 thousand

What a horror, and all the polls are horsemen?

>> I wonder how Suvorov dragged locomotives through the Alps?

No way, the steam locomotive was invented only 4 years later. Are you by any chance a Fomenkovite, my friend?
Try rephrasing the question.

(I can’t help but note that the officials in your person are once again trying to prove the reality of their fantasies with incorrect analogies with the end of the 18th century, i.e. with the gunpowder era; it’s strange what claims can be made to the ancient Ukrainians who dig the Black Sea with their hands - after all did they make an artificial lake Chagan in Kazakhstan, and why couldn’t the ancient Ukrainians do the same?)


>> think the 5th century AD was later than the 13th? An interesting idea, it explains a lot ....

You would sleep. In the 5th century AD, the fortress in Derbent had not yet taken the form that is attributed to it))

>> Here, you see, even if there was a Suez Canal near the Macedonian, it would only lead to the Red Sea, and there you still need to go around the Arabian Peninsula, and India is not on the Euphrates, but on the Ganges, there is also sawing along the Indian Ocean and to saw.

So what? Another argument in the style of an elder and an uncle in Kyiv?

[Keer]

What a horror, and all the polls are horsemen

we know it's not stokers on steam locomotives.

No way, the steam locomotive was invented only 4 years later. Are you by any chance a Fomenkovite, my friend? laughing
Try rephrasing the question

Well, you yourself wrote that the movement of troops along the roads is not possible without, at least, a steam engine, or have you forgotten? I suggested that Suvorov was supposed to drag locomotives with him. But if you meant a steamship, then how did you drag steamships, or pure steam engines? Is it a powder era, in the sense that Suvorov crossed the Alps on powder propellers? On firecrackers, or something, or on nuclei? Munchausen, by the way, was for some time in the Russian service. So that he could transfer nuclear technology to Suvorov. You did not answer at what point on the Euphrates to the Mediterranean Sea 200 km.

[Evil eye]

Oh wow, have it your way. Watch your hands.

We take 30000 men and 30000 horses. Horses need 12 kg of oats per day. A person needs 2 kg of dry food per day. (12+2)*30000 = 420000 kg = 420 tons. The carrying capacity of the cart (modern, with steel wheels and tires) is up to 2 tons. In total, it turns out that the entire army needs 210 carts per day.
We take the road around the Caspian Sea at 1500 km.
Suppose the army retreated an average of 520 km. We take the speed of the march at 40 km per day. We get 520/40 = 13 days. This means that you need to take 5460 tons of food from somewhere, and make 2730 flights.
But that's not all, because the carts do not travel by teleport, but along the same road from Khorezm. With the same speed of 40 km per day. 520 km is 13 day trips. This means that when the army is 520 km from Khorezm, it must simultaneously be followed by a column of 13 * 210 = 2730 carts.
But that's not all, because. the rear carts themselves also require food fuel, but I'm too lazy to count.
Three thousand carts - this, of course, looks a little compared to the 30000th army, but they must be dragged either from Mongolia itself, or requisitioned in Khorezm, for which about three hundred thousand people should live in the city (as in ancient Rome in the best years), and intracity logistics - like in London in 1890, and in the city after that there will be a transport collapse and total mortality.

We took ideal conditions, a straight two-lane road, at least a rammed one, the complete absence of any traffic jams, the maximum possible speed on the march, the absence of cart breakdowns, the absence of reserve horses (although the knights later took two or three on the snout), in Khorezm all the people turned in obedient zombies, and the rear service works like clockwork.

And yet, under such conditions, is it possible to pass a 30-strong horde from Khorezm to Derbent? Answer: YES, IT IS POSSIBLE, if the enemy does not know how and does not want to fight and with masochistic pleasure allows himself to be cut out, burned and taken into slavery. Otherwise, any Asian commander sooner or later (like the Indian Eagle Eye) would have noticed a HUGE, mazafaka, column of unguarded carts, which could be cut like two fingers on the asphalt by a detachment of a couple of hundred people, after which the “Mongols” would only have to suck paw or something else.

Anticipating your tricky questions:

1) And how do they manage without a convoy in Mongolia, why can’t you pinch the grass? Answer: because in Mongolia the population density is 2 people per sq. km, and since the Mongols themselves cannot pluck grass, they have not only horses, but also other livestock.
2) But still, why can’t you pinch the grass if the Mongolian horses find it even under the snow? Answer: well, if they find it under the snow, then they will probably find it in the Karakum desert under the sand, or they just pinch the thorns, but the camels eat the thorns, which means that 30 horses will be able to.
3) And how Moses led the Jews for forty years in the desert, is this really a legend? Answer: imagine.
4) And how is Suvorov? The answer is in the next comment.
5) And how Mao led the Chinese, and how Smith led the Mormons, and how, but how - with the same results as Suvorov. None of them took the city by storm.

>> The powder era is, in the sense that Suvorov crossed the Alps on powder propellers?

What humor is funny, you would have to perform in the Full House. Are the arguments over? ))

[Keer]

Your assumptions are wrong, you came up with the idea that grub and fodder had to be dragged from Khorezm to Derbent. On the basis of such an assumption, for example, such that the nearest source of water for the Khabarovsk water supply is the Vistula, I will prove that there cannot be tap water in Khabarovsk. Or, that the life expectancy of an urban person cannot be 70 years, on the basis that the volume of an average apartment will not allow to accommodate so much food.

[Evil eye]

>> for the Khabarovsk water supply, the nearest source of water is Vistula


For the Khabarovsk water supply, the nearest source of water is the Amur. Have you been banned from googlemaps?

>> the life expectancy of an urban person cannot be 70 years, based on the fact that the volume of an average apartment will not allow to accommodate so much food.

Here! Here we come to the ability of officials to understand the meaning of texts (and, therefore, to understand what is written not only in ancient chronicles, but even in textbooks on physics and geography). Of course, you can’t store food in an apartment for 70 years, so you need to periodically go to the store for food, where it gets thanks to mass road transport, which delivers food from freight train stations and ports to retail outlets. And if you had re-read my works more carefully, in the sense of comments, you would have understood that I was talking about the regular delivery of food along the road, and not dragging a convoy with supplies all the way without taking into account their replenishment. But you did not understand this, because, apparently, you are used to the fact that food in your refrigerator appears by itself, the light appears by itself in the outlet, and the water in the water supply

And of course, another argument in the spirit of "if Vasya could take two steps without food and rest, then he could walk two thousand kilometers through the desert, and if food does not fit in the apartment, then it is not needed - you can eat solar energy, mana and prana"

[Keer]

YES, IT IS POSSIBLE, if the enemy does not know how and does not want to fight and with masochistic pleasure allows himself to be cut, burned and taken into slavery.

the army of Khorezmshah, your ruler, was defeated, the ruler himself fled from the battlefield, and in order not to be "cut, burned and taken away", you must open the gates and submit to the winners. Which, the winners, in case of resistance, they cut everyone without exception, which is known from rumors from refugees. If you think a little with your brains, then it’s clear where Sabaday got poison, drink, and food. And Batu goes 5 years after Jabe and Sabaday, already through its territory, in its own way, understand, straight to Derbent. This is the official version, with which you, here, supposedly, volunteered to fight. And you, instead, famously refute your own, your own fabrications. Yes, by the way, how to go from the Mediterranean to the Euphrates, so that the road is 200 km, you still did not answer debt to you.

[Keer]

In fifteen years, not in 5, 1 is not printed

[Evil eye]

Well, not even in 5 years, but in 15. What has changed?

[Evil eye]

>> the army of Khorezmshah, your ruler, is defeated,

*boring voice*
Where is the evidence of this military feat, except in the writings of regular armchair humanitarians? How they defeated them, how they got to Khorezm from Mongolia, what they ate on the way, how they broke into Khorezm itself, HOW COULD YOU NOT SUFFER LOSSES? After all, fortresses were built specifically for this purpose in order to defend themselves from conquerors, and historians even confirm that they were not made of straw, like the three pigs. And I know what you will write - “but how Moses conquered the promised land with God's help, is it really a legend, can it really be written in books FALSE? And how did the Jews take Jericho by storm, destroying the walls with the sound of trumpets? The Mongols, however, were not Jews, although in the Middle Ages they were considered Christians and collaborated with the Russian Orthodox Church - but you can get out of the situation by declaring that the unclean person himself (aka Azzi Sotona) is helping them. It is impossible to explain what is happening without Sothona

>> the ruler fled the battlefield

Without trying to continue organizing resistance. Some kind of eunuch, and not a ruler, in Rus' the supporters of the False Dmitryev were even more brazen, although they were caught and impaled on stakes.

>> so that you are not "cut, burned and taken away" you need to open the gates and submit to the winners

Don't fight to the last. However, it really is safer for life to give away food and be guaranteed to die of hunger than to fight. And why do people fight?

>> Which, the winners, in case of resistance, they cut everyone without exception

After all, the winners themselves win without any losses at all - they also have Jericho trumpets and three Daenerys dragons with them

>> what is rumored from refugees

Which, of course, did not crave revenge and could not report anything specific about the Mongol tactics, or at least about the very fact of the invasion (in order to have time to prepare for the siege), or about how the Mongols observe the treaty - but they were able to intimidate compatriots specifically. And the commanders of compatriots for some reason did not guess the refugees for alarmism and defeatism to hang up on the nearest tree. However, it is only among the Mongols that the whole ten are executed for the fault of one, and their opponents have no idea of ​​\uXNUMXb\uXNUMXbdiscipline at all.

>> If, a little poraskinut brains, then it is clear where Sabedei got poison, drink, and food.

He intimidated everyone with bloody massacres. It is strange that this did not help Hitler in a similar situation, and despite the Gestapo, mass burning of villages and mass executions, he still had partisans in the rear, and Soviet cities did not give up without a fight. And I had to fight. However, who is old Brown compared to Subaday? Looooooh!

You know, if you say that the Mongolian supermen were all psionic, and therefore subjected the enemies to mass hypnosis, then I will immediately accept all your arguments. True, for some reason historians write not about mass hypnosis, but about battles and assaults.

>> And Batu goes 5 years after Jabe and Sabaday, already on its own territory, on its own, understand, straight to Derbent.

Yes, in 5 years the territory sharply becomes its own. There are cities all around (which, however, the predecessors managed to either burn to the ground, or starve to death), all around their native Mongolian population ... Oops, the Mongols did not inhabit the occupied territories ... Well, nothing, the local population learned to speak Mongolian in 5 years, adopted the Mongol faith, recognized Batu as the king-father given by the Lord himself, against whom it is a sin to speak a word, and gave birth to a bunch of children from the Mongols ... Oops, the Mongols did not assimilate anyone ... Okay, there are Mongol garrisons all around (oops ...) ... Okay, in short, the local population broken, demoralized, does not want to fight, does not want to take revenge, did not draw any conclusions from the invasion (except for the fact that, according to the shout “Open the gate, rezat budEm”, you must open the gate and turn your neck, otherwise it will be worse) - but at the same time everything five years regularly continues to sow grain and pay taxes, instead of taking off and running wherever your eyes look.

>> This is the official version

So what? 15 years ago, the official version of the course of the Great Patriotic War was that the Germans were thrown with corpses in a ratio of 10 to one with one rifle for two. But not now.
However, the officials apparently envy the authority of religious teachers and want the same thing: to believe their every word

>> debt to you.

Even for 175 you can meet.

And you, by the way, did not provide any material evidence of the existence of the Mongol Empire, except for fucking legends and comparisons either with Suvorov or with the Kalmyks, completely disproving your constructions. So, where is the physical evidence?

[Keer]

By the way, you have not provided any material evidence of the existence of the Mongol Empire

Yes, there are plenty of them, here, let's take Batu Khan (Batu). Secret History, and Rashid at Din is directly described as the grandson of Genghis Khan, a Mongol, and the Russian Legend of the murder of Mikhail Chernigov directly calls him the Khan of the Tatars, those who fell upon Rus'. You read less unfounded pseudo historians, with their "no evidence." Do your research and publish your version of what happened in the 13th century.

[Evil eye]

>> Yes, there are plenty of them

Come on…

>> take Batu Khan (Batu)

Let's take it.

>> Secret history

Stories are not tangible evidence.

>> Rashid at din is directly described as the grandson of Genghis Khan

Rashid's descriptions are not material evidence.

>> Russian legend about the murder of Mikhail of Chernigov

A story is not material evidence. Do you understand what "material evidence" means?

[Keer]

A story is not material evidence. Do you understand what "material evidence" means?

This is a material document, on parchment, a list of the 14th century, from the 13th century that has not survived. Not the 19th century, but the 14th, mind you. And, what, in fact, did you want, documentary filming of the attack by the lava of the Subedei Tumen or a photo of Batu on a horse?

[Evil eye]

"Material" here is only parchment, and anything can be written on it. For example, if you write something about the country of dog-headed people on a material parchment of the 14th century, then this is not material evidence of their existence.

By the way, how did you establish that this is a list of the 14th century, and not the 15th and not the 16th?

I would like buildings, economic documents in the Mongolian language, Mongolian cemeteries, temples and traces of DNA

[Keer]

Excavations of Karakoram and Shandu, not satisfied? Moreover, the description by Rubruk coincides with those excavated in the Karakorum.

business documents in Mongolian,

Provide household documents of Yaroslav the Wise, then, I
Once again I will tell you what and how with the Mongolian documents.

[Evil eye]

Quote: Keer

Excavations of Karakoram and Shandu, not satisfied? Moreover, the description by Rubruk coincides with those excavated in the Karakorum.

"In 1235, the Karakoram was surrounded by an adobe wall and was a rectangle elongated from south to north, about 1,5 by 2,5 kilometers in size."

Powerful. Capital of the world, yes.

"Shandu ... It consisted of a square "outer city" with a side of 2200 m, an "inner city" with a side of 1400 m and Kublai's summer palace with a side of 500 m"

By the way, I forgot to tell you that I am a descendant of the galactic conquerors. I can show you the barn where the flying saucer was. The remains of megacities "two kilometers" have the same probative force))))

Provide household documents of Yaroslav the Wise, then, I
Once again I will tell you what and how with the Mongolian documents.

Yaroslav conquered half the world, like the Mongols? My friend, are you not from the Fomenkovites?
However, okay, he presented something like birch bark letters. So what's up with the Mongolian documents?

[Keer]

Everything is in order with Mongolian documents, and you are free

[Evil eye]

Well, that is, there are no documents; you cannot provide information about them; there is no evidence that illiterate nomads, moving off-road, created the largest empire in history - you just need to take the word of the officials

Well, ok, but faith has nothing to do with science

[Evil eye]

Unless, of course, we do not consider certain legends and treatises written by neither eyewitnesses nor contemporaries of these events as evidence - which can be, at best, a rehashing of popular rumors and legends, and at worst, a deliberate stuffing of Vatican falsifiers in order to disguise European (Catholic) origin " Mongols"

[Keer]

Vatican falsifiers in order to disguise the European (Catholic) origin of the "Mongols

I said, confess, then, b, and don’t waste time, would

[Evil eye]

Confess what? That 2+2 = 4 and not 8, as your Ministry of Truth claims?
There are a lot of traces of Catholic influence, a lot of linguistic traces, even the words themselves: Mongols, Tatars, Taurmen, Genghis Khan, Batu - all of European origin. Evidence of an oriental origin is zero.

By the way, you have not answered the question: do you believe in the Son of God?

[Keer]

In 1235, the Karakorum was surrounded by an adobe wall and was a rectangle elongated from south to north about 1,5 by 2,5 kilometers in size.

Have you tried calculating the area? 3,7 by 10 in the sixth square meter, exactly fifteen times the area of ​​the Moscow Kremlin. I always tell my kids, don't skip math, you'll be stupid. Further - even more interesting is the area between the boulevard ring and its center: 2/3 pi, sector, - a radius of one kilometer. 2.4 per ten in the sixth square. M. I told you, they skipped school, study.

[Keer]

I mean, nitpick, 2x2/3 pi, the following calculations are correct.

[Evil eye]

3,75. When you multiply 2 numbers that both end in 5, the product must also end in 5. Take your kids to math, bgg

It is better to take the children to the optometrist, and at the same time go yourself. Then you can notice that the border of Moscow is not along the Kremlin wall, lol.

So the square of the Karakorum is smaller than the area of ​​the White City in Moscow (4 sq. km.), To which Moscow was not limited. It turns out that Moscow was richer. Maybe it's Moscow - the capital of the Mongol Empire?
Well, kanesh "The central quarters of the city, surrounded by sites for ger (yurts) were a unique combination of monumental buildings with traditional nomad dwellings", i.e. inside, the "city" was for the most part a tent camp around stone buildings (allegedly from the 13th century), the area of ​​\uXNUMXb\uXNUMXbwhich was much smaller than the area bounded by the wall.

[Keer]

By the way, I forgot to tell you that I am a descendant of the galactic conquerors.

] this cannot be, the conquerors of the universe, should have been able to calculate the areas of simple figures.

[Keer]

Powerful. Capital of the world, yes. summer palace of Khubilai with a side of 500 m"

four, more than once in area larger than the Winter Palace of the Russian Emperors

[Evil eye]

Try to understand the difference between a palace and a city. I understand that it’s difficult for you, you can’t catch the difference between a caravan and an army convoy, but look into the dictionary, in the end, buy some kind of illustrated encyclopedia for schoolchildren ...

Okay, I won't troll, sorry. Well, we found a certain settlement, supposedly the Khan's palace. What confirms its capital status? The documents? Correspondence with all the governors, for example, orders, accounting? Oops, the rulers of the world, it turns out, were illiterate. Just like in a joke, "if I were literate, I would have become a tinsmith in Bobruisk 20 years ago, but this way I became a millionaire." Okay, then what else? Mint? The main Mongolian temple?

By the way, you never answered - do you recognize the existence and resurrection of Jesus from the dead or not? debt to you

[Keer]

Try to understand the difference between a palace and a city

Don’t talk to me about who has the bigger palace, Nikolai, or Khubilai ?. It's good that they looked at the White City Square on Wiki. It’s bad that you can’t count without a hint and wrote, at first, that they say the city of the Mongols is small. Then let 4 Belai city, Karokorum 3.8, a, Shandu 4.8 Stone Walls of the White City of the 16th century, the third century of the capital status, a settled state. And Karokorum and Shandu were built right away. Moreover, Shandu is a summer residence, only, At the same time, both Karakorum and Shandu are regular cities (built according to a clear plan from scratch). Now, next. There are more flowers. Near the ruined Sung Beijing. Kublai built a new capital, Dadu (Khanbaliq), a regular walled city of 51 square kilometers, twelve and a half times the size of the White City.

[Evil eye]

>> You don’t talk to me about who has the bigger palace, Nikolai, or Khubilai

Am I to you? No need to blame a sick head on a healthy one. I asked you to show the STO-LI-TSU, and you deftly switched the arrows to phallometry, who had the largest palace ... Do you understand what a “capital” is, why it is needed and how it differs from the ruler’s residence? Well, there, the administration, the treasury, the strategic position? So I ask: where is the Mongolian "capital of the world", and you show me a city smaller than Moscow. What's with the palace?

Moreover, a motherfucker, a summer palace. It turns out that every winter in the greatest empire of mankind, administrative paralysis began.
However, even in the summer it was impossible to manage anything from there, because (quoting Vicki) "the city had a number of shortcomings: the lack of well-established routes and waterways, complete dependence on supplies from China." It suddenly turns out that there is not enough pasture for urban life, although before that they captured almost all of Eurasia and did not notice. Just like Tom and Jerry: they run to the middle of the abyss and only then realize that it's time to fall

However, a city smaller than Moscow is also cool ... But judging by the description, it, like Karakorum, consisted mainly of empty space surrounded by a wall on which yurts stood. Camping. Cool cool…
What kind of palace was there is now unknown, because only ruins have survived to this day (allegedly from the 13th century, but it is not known how dated). It also makes no sense to ask about untold riches, stolen works of art or the fruits of the labors of captured masters - either the Mongols were not interested in such soulless khegna, or the archaeologists carried everything past the cash register. There are no investments in fixed capital either, because, as we have already found out, this town was sucked in from China and therefore had neither economic, nor transport, nor strategic importance. In principle, the peasant Khubilai was not stupid, he understood that investing too much in the Potemkin der ... sorry, there is no point in the Potemkin capital. Naturally, there are no archives - the Mongols, as you know, were illiterate at the peak of their power, and their lands were controlled with the help of corrupted telephones in the person of messengers.

As a result, we have a certain settlement that could not perform the functions of the capital - and indeed most of the city's functions - it was not clear why it was built, it does not have any objective signs of the capital and was declared as such by historians. Well, OK. Historians say that there was a Mongol Empire, which is confirmed by the ruins that historians declared to be the capital - a classic vicious circle. However, I am ready to agree that the Mongols invented the vicious circle of evidence under the guise of the “wheel of samsara”
To be continued about "Karakorum" and about the rest ...

[Evil eye]

Okay, dear comrades, sorry for the delays, business, and technical problems.
So, let's return to the Mongolian Potemkin capitals, into which looted wealth from all over the world flowed, where they were annihilated (in any case, archaeologists did not find anything of particular value). We have already found out that the so-called. Shangdu was completely dependent on supplies from China and therefore had neither economic, nor transport, nor strategic importance, i.e. he could not perform the functions of the capital, and therefore the officials call it the "summer residence of the khan."
How he was dated is not known, but even if we assume that is true, then there are no signs of special wealth. Only a square palace with a side allegedly half a kilometer.
True, what kind of palace was there is also not known exactly, because now there are solid ruins there. The city itself, apparently, consisted mostly of empty space, like the so-called. "Karakoram". What the "palace" consisted of is also unclear, perhaps from it - like European castles, in which the wall was hoo, and inside the courtyard and donjon.

But before moving on to the Karakorum, I would like to dwell on a couple more points.

Official historians, of course, understand that the conquest of the whole world by poor nomads is a fantasy cleaner than the Lord of the Rings, where the orcs in Mordor at least had a production base. Therefore, a solution that was fucking awesome at first glance was found - to switch the arrows to China. Like, the Mongols by some miracle captured China, which was superior to them in everything, and then, with the help of Chinese engineers, bureaucrats and submariners, set off to conquer the whole world. The Chinese, of course, didn’t even think about killing the remaining Mongols, because these are obedient Asians. Although these Asians have been rebelling throughout the 20th century, don’t play around.
Accordingly, the capital of the Mongols in China was.
The problem is that this translation of the arrows into the Chinese is an argument of such a kind that it would be better for the officials to keep quiet about it. Because then instead of the question “where is the Mongol influence on conquered Rus'?” the question immediately arises: “where is the Chinese influence on Rus'?” Where are economic documents written in hieroglyphs, where are borrowings from the Chinese language, where are preachers of the Chinese faith. And nowhere. And, in order to hammer the last nail into the coffin of the Chinese argument, we look at the history of the “Mongolian Beijing”, also known as Dadu (for some reason, the name is Chinese, as if the Mongols did not build it) or Khanbalik. For some reason, the city was built by an Arab architect (although Arabia didn’t seem to be conquered yet?) According to Chinese canons (although the rest of China didn’t seem to be conquered yet?)
Everything is simple here: it turns out that in 1368 he razed the Yuan palaces to the ground, i.e. again, there is no evidence of the capital status, except for urban legends, and the real history of Beijing begins only from the 13th century. The conquerors didn’t care how to destroy buildings that had been built for decades - but this explains the absence of traces of the Mongol and pre-Mongolian period. Ends in the water, like a gritsa.

However, it is quite possible that the "yuan palaces" were still made of straw, like those of three pigs, so they were of no value in the eyes of the Chinese, and it was a pleasure to destroy them. In particular, the remains of the old Yuan walls that survive to this day north of the Ming walls are now known as Tucheng (Chinese 土城, lit. earthen wall). Which immediately raises the question of whether the real Yuan walls were a banal earthen embankment. Which, of course, is also not bad, but for the capital of the world it is somehow liquid.

[Evil eye]

And finally, we have come to the pearl of the Mongol Empire, dear comrades, to the legendary Karakorum, a huge metropolis smaller than Moscow (sarcasm), where Yaroslav Vsevoldovich and Alexander Yaroslavovich came to pay their respects. Although now the Russians are somehow not eager even on planes to the Far East, but then it was a trifling matter to spend a year of their life trying to wave to Mongolia and back ...
What is the evidence that there was a capital city here?
It turns out that none. As usual. Because, as usual, the city had no strategic importance, and 25 years after its foundation, it lost its capital status and fell into decay. Like Shandu, nobody needed the fuck. Well, OK. By the way, from Shangdu, “by 1293, a significant part of the artisans left the city and moved to China.” rendered.
But did the buildings of that period remain, showing the power of the Mongol conquerors?
Oops, it turns out that in 1585 Abatai began the construction of the first stationary Buddhist monastery in Northern Mongolia, Erdeni-Dzu [before that, for 300 years, the great conquerors were somehow not puzzled by ideology and church bureaucracy], for which he had to not only restore old buildings, but and build new ones using stone from the ruins of the old city for construction.
That is, the real history of Karakorum begins at the end of the 16th century, but it is not known whether there was anything before that moment. ends in the water. Allegedly, everything was and was rebuilt.
By the way, “According to the “Precious Tale” of Sagan-Setsen, at the kurultai of 1415, it was decided to rebuild the capital, but the implementation of this decision has not yet been confirmed by any archaeological data.” Wow, even the officials are sometimes forced to admit that the “Mongolian legends” are not confirmed by material traces, it’s just that in most cases they still manage to pull an owl on a globe. Well, OK.
But, in the end, the officials insist that there was a city on this place long before the 16th century, and it was huge by local standards. So the traces of the might of the Empire are finally found, dear comrades. True, it is not clear how the officials can prove that in the 13th century the city already had the declared size.
But yes, and the joke would be with him. Let's meet the officials. And it turns out that there really was a huge settlement on the site of Karakorum, which was even visited by European travelers and described in detail. Well, OK.
Upon closer examination, however, the dimensions of the Karakorum turn out to be inflated in every sense. It turns out that it was basically a tent camp, but in reality, urban development occupied several times less area. It is, of course, cool that the tents of nomads are pathetically called “traditional Mongolian architecture”, but they are not suitable for permanent residence. And the wealth of the city again does not prove in any way. However, given that the Mongols didn’t fucking need the city, they quite reasonably didn’t spend money on houses, why build them if they leave later ...
By the way, about tradition. Somehow, "traditional cloth architecture" was combined with a regular layout. It remains to be understood how the Mongols came up with the brilliant idea of ​​regular planning. Not otherwise than because of the fall of a meteorite, as in Marvel comics? Let's admit. But why didn't the Mongols bring this idea to the conquered countries? Again, everything is sewn with white threads.
What remains, in fact, is the city wall itself, 1,5 by 2,5 km, which, of course, is not bad. True, upon closer examination, another UPS awaits us, because "adobe walls were necessary in order to control the approaches to the city, but in case of attacks they could not protect it." Those. it's not even an earthen rampart with a moat. This, sorry mua, “wall”, and if you call a spade a spade, then the fence had no military significance, respectively, and was inexpensive and in no way confirms the power of Karakorum.
It remains to be understood, in general, something was built in this place. Even if we consider that as the city of Karakorum, already under a new name, it really began to be built up from the construction of a monastery in 1585.
By all indications, this is simply a huge cattle market, founded jointly by the Chinese, Europeans and local Mongol leaders for hilling the Mongol clientele. It doesn't show any other function. This explains the regularity of the layout (that is, it is actually a large trading post), and the adobe fence, which did not protect against enemies (and what kind of enemies are there), but could limit the market from thieves and duty evaders. Again, cattle will not run back and forth and shit. Even the tents become understandable - people did not live here for a long time, but simply came to exchange livestock products for handicraft goods. Many of our markets look like this too.

[Evil eye]

Now Suvorov. Traveled about 300 km in 17 days.

YES. Milyutin estimates the total losses of Suvorov at 5100 people, of which 1600 were killed, including those who crashed during the transitions, and 980 wounded, left in Switzerland, out of 21 Russian soldiers who went on a campaign. Only upon arrival in the city for the first time since the beginning of the passage through the Panix did the soldiers receive heat, bread, meat and vodka portions. Of the entire Suvorov corps, only 000 people could hardly remain under arms, the rest suffered from fever or snow blindness. The Cossack hundreds were reduced to about 10 horsemen, each with four or five surviving horses in poor condition; artillery was completely lost; a third of the troops lost their guns, and those that were left rusted and fell into disrepair; the bayonets were blunted, and the uniforms were tattered beyond recognition. 000 francs of the army treasury were also lost.

And since we see - IT IS POSSIBLE, you can still walk along the road without supplies, dear comrades, and since you can go 17 days and lose 20% of the personnel, then you can also go five times more distance ... Having lost 20 * 5 = 100% personnel. But this is Suvorov, otherwise it was Genghis Khan, and who is Suvorov in front of him? Lol!

It was Suvorov who lost people and horses killed, wounded, frostbitten, fallen into the abyss during the campaign, and Genghis Khan and other Mongol commanders, on the contrary, found new soldiers along the way, wiped off the dust and took them into the army. Suvorov lost heavy cannons, and the Mongols had anti-gravity, and the weight of siege weapons changed to negative, so that they could be dragged by captured women with one left. Suvorov was constantly attacked by enemy troops, and the Mongols had a +100 buff to intimidate the enemy, so the enemies either fled or became numb and allowed themselves to be killed without a fight.

Nevertheless, the question remains: how did Suvorov storm city after city, having an exhausted army in his hands? But no way. The assault was at the very beginning, when they took the Devil's Bridge, and even then it was conditional, but there were no further assaults. In fact, Suvorov left the encirclement. But that was Suvorov's sucker, and the Mongols, under the same conditions, carried out strategic offensive operations to the entire depth of the front. There is not only Suvrorv, there is even Guderian in front of our Genghis Khan sucker.

[Keer]

What makes you think that Jabe went without supplies? They fed on the spot from the locals. You always come up with some kind of nonsense, and then successfully refute it. About Suvorov, in the context of our conversation, only the use of steam engines by him, or non-use, is important.

[Evil eye]

>> What makes you think that Jabe went without supplies? They fed on the spot from the locals.

In your second statement, you confirm the first: since you “were fed from the locals,” it means that there was no centralized supply. Only forced requisitions of provisions from the local population, which is obviously not enough. This means that the Mongols had to crawl to Derbent, barely standing on their feet and eating the last horses - as Suvorov's fighters, Kalmyks, Mormons and Chinese miraculously reached the last point of their routes under Mao.

You can, of course, “get fed by the locals,” provided that the locals don’t know how to fight and don’t want to, and endure everything themselves. Especially in the Karakum. I will say more: you can take fortified cities, provided that the inhabitants in the sight of the Mongol banners immediately make a collective hara-kiri. True, hordes of hundreds of thousands are not needed for this, an embassy of a couple of dozen people is enough, but for some reason historians bashfully do not voice this option and insist that the hordes were and even were full-fledged assaults, and not just the hypnotic effect of Tatar banners with a buff of + 100 to terrify and petrify enemy units. Probably because then the fabulousness of the "Mongol conquests" will become clear to everyone

>> you always come up with some kind of nonsense, and then successfully refute it.

I wonder what kind of nonsense I came up with? That the conquerors, who would have thought, need to fight? That they suffer losses from hunger and cold? It is only the national general staff who believes that as soon as they enter enemy territory, the army will immediately scatter there, and the population will come out with flowers. Do you happen to work for the General Staff? This explains a lot

>> About Suvorov, in the context of our conversation, only the use of steam engines is important, or not.

In the context of our conversation: without the use of steam engines, Suvorov's army miraculously emerged from the encirclement, having completely lost its combat effectiveness. This means that the storming of cities by the “Mongols” after lengthy land crossings is completely ruled out by the example of Suvorov.

[Keer]

I wonder what kind of nonsense I came up with?

Nonsense that Jebe and Subedei should, de, (advancing in pursuit of the escaped Mahmet Khorezmshah,) fight continuously, take cities by storm, and overcome heroic resistance
enemy. When, as, in fact, in reality, it turned out that in rare and insignificant cases, local authorities tried in every possible way to avoid a confrontation with the invaders and went over to their side. And, therefore, with the supply, everything was in order.

[Evil eye]

An excellent excuse, but for some reason the officials have the opposite: there were battles, and assaults, and the population “avoided confrontation” so well that the Mongols did nothing but rezal, burned and devastated. For example, in what expressions the conquest of Dagestan is described:

“Having devastated and devastated part of Georgia, the Mongol-Tatars headed for Shirvan...” “From Georgia,” writes Kirakos Gandzaketsi, “the Mongol-Tatars headed for the Derbent Gate with the intention of returning home. However, the Tajiks, who owned Derbent, did not let them through.”
“Having passed Derbend-Shirvan,” wrote Ibn-al-Asir, “the Tatars entered the regions in which there are many nationalities: Alans, Lakz and several Turkic tribes (taifa), robbed and killed many Lakz-Muslims and unbelievers, massacred among those who met their hostile inhabitants of those countries"
"As the well-known orientalist I.P. Petrushevsky wrote, "... during the Chingiz conquests, we no longer see spontaneous cruelties and destruction, but organized methods of mass extermination of civilians, the devastation of entire regions"

Etc. etc. and a cherry on the cake: “Rashid ad-din writes about the Mongols that in the spring of 1239, “having appointed an army for a campaign, they entrusted it to Bukdai and sent him to Timur-Kakhalka so that he would occupy the Avir region as well.” Timur Kahalka ( in the translation from the Mongolian “Iron Gates”), mentioned here, is Derbent, which was taken and destroyed.

DO THE SOURCES HAVE HEGNY AND EVERYTHING WAS WRONG?

[Keer]

Yes, that's right, it was in 23 when they returned from the Transcaucasian campaign and after the raid on Kalka and the Defeat of Bulgaria, they fought, of course. And in pursuit of Mehmed, they didn’t fight on his territory, almost.

Rashid:
"Genghis Khan gave him a term and ordered that when Jebe, Subedai and other troops reached his region and people, they would not harm them. For this reason, when Jebe and Subedai reached the region (Khan-melika), they did not touch it and passed (further). Tukuchar, who followed them, altered the order and encroached on these regions, as well as on other regions and localities. He entered into a war with the highlanders there and was killed. "
Juvaini describes the movement of the chase as follows:

“First, they (the Mongols. - V.T.) arrived in Balkh. Notable citizens sent a deputation to meet him with tuzga and refreshments. And the Mongols, therefore, did not harm them and appointed a shikhna to them. Then they took a guide from them, they sent Taizi ahead.

Approaching the city of Zawa, they demanded to give them food, but the inhabitants of the city closed the gate, and did not attach any importance to their words, and did not give them anything. The Mongols were in a hurry and therefore, without stopping, they galloped on. And when the inhabitants of Zava saw the receding banners and saw the backs of the Mongols, they, in their unreasonableness, began to beat drums and gibberish and began to shout insulting and abusive words. The Mongols, seeing their insulting antics and hearing their speeches, turned back and in a rage attacked all three fortresses, placing ladders against their walls. On the third day, by the time the goblet of the horizon was filled to the brim with the blood of the dawn, they climbed the walls and left no one alive.

[Evil eye]

Oh okay, let's keep it simple.

WHAT MATERIAL EVIDENCE CONFIRMS THESE LEGENDS?

And I know a lot of interesting stories myself.

“Hercules worked diligently with a shovel for half a day. He blocked the river bed and diverted its waters directly to the royal stables. By the evening, the swift stream of Alpheus had carried away all the manure from the stables, and along with the manure, stalls, feeders, and even dilapidated walls.

"Do not seek, king," said Hercules, "I cleared your stables not only of manure, but also of everything that had long rotted away. I did more than I promised. Now you give me what you promised."

Avgiy was greedy, he did not want to give up his horses. He ordered two of his nephews to ambush Hercules and kill him. How could two mere mortals cope with the son of Zeus! And the ambush arranged by them did not help - the nephews of Avgius fell at the hands of Hercules.

Or, "Whoever is fearful and timid, let him return and go back from Mount Gilead." And twenty-two thousand people returned, and ten thousand remained. 4 And the Lord said to Gideon, There are still many people; lead them to the water, there I will choose them for you; of whom I say, "Let him go with you," let him go with you; but of whom I say to you, "I must not go with you," let him not go. 5 He led the people to the water And the Lord said to Gideon, Whoever laps water with his tongue, as a dog laps, set him apart, also all those who bow down on their knees and drink. the people bowed down on their knees to drink water. 6 And the Lord said to Gideon, With three hundred lappers I will save you, and I will deliver the Midianites into your hand;

[Keer]

Strictly, you tell me what kind of "evidence" you want, so that you are satisfied?

[Evil eye]

Well, for example, where is the majestic capital of Mongolia, where the looted wealth flowed from everywhere?

[Keer]

What years? What period? Under Chngiz, Khebulai, Burke, Takhtamysh? In general, the unified state of Genghis almost immediately fell apart into uluses, the situation is somewhat similar to the diadochi of Alexander.

[Evil eye]

Any name

"In general, the unified state of Genghis, almost immediately fell apart into uluses" - that is, there was no _single_ state, there was a military-political union of local leaders. Right?

[Keer]

Any name

Under Kublai - Beijing, have you heard of such a thing? Then it was called Khanbalyk, and for the summer it was Shandu.

[Evil eye]

Heard it's a Chinese city
Oh yes, the Mongols first conquered China, squeezed military science and military resources from the Chinese along with Chinese engineers.
Well, OK.
Well, what is the evidence that the Mongols owned Beijing? Are there many documents in Mongolian?

[Keer]

You are talking about the Yuan dynasty, have you heard of what? What about Shanda? And about Karakorum (the city, the capital of Genghis)? There is not much in the Mongolian language, but there is. The Mongols did not have their own written language at first. And, since the Mongols were smart enough to leave the Chinese bureaucracy, the documents are mostly in Chinese. However, there are records in Mongolian, Mongolian writing and transcribed in Chinese characters. In contrast to the documents of the Great Tatars, and the Hyper-Russians A, about how many documents, few, but anyway more than the documents of Vladimir the Great, Svyatoslavovich. Vladimir, too, do not recognize?

[Evil eye]

>> You are talking about the Yuan dynasty, have you heard of it?

Have you heard of the sun goddess Amaterasu?

>> And about Shandu? And about Karakorum

Yes, I heard that archaeologists found some foundations a kilometer and a half and declared them the capitals of empires. With the same success, any barn can be declared a khan's palace in Saray. For example, my shed will do. It turns out that I am a descendant of Genghis Khan. Throw 500 rubles on the card towards yasak arrears? Even pizza wanted, do not deprive the born emperor

>> There is not much in Mongolian, but there is

That is, there are no traces of document flow.

>> The Mongols did not have their own written language at first.

That is, they could not manage a huge empire.

>> documents are mostly in Chinese

Good. How many documents were found in Rus' in Chinese, written by Chinese bureaucrats who were supposed to accompany the Mongol army?

>> However, there are records in Mongolian

Okay, let's link to a description of some Mongolian-language archive in China. Let's count how many records there are, read what.

>> how many documents, few, but any more than the documents of Vladimir the Great, Svyatoslavovich.

Vladimir ruled an empire 7 kilometers long? Did not know. You are not a Fomenkovite by any chance, my friend?

By the way, can I ask you another question? Are you religious? Do you believe in our Lord Jesus Christ? Congratulate you on Baptism or not?

[Keer]

It was but collapsed, like the USSR, or was there no USSR?

[Evil eye]

From the USSR, my friend, there was a bunch of cities, weapons, documents and even names, especially Lenin streets and monuments to Lenin, not to mention genetic traces)))

[Keer]

What are these "genetic traces" from the USSR left?

[Evil eye]

For example, diasporas. remaining from the state-forming ethnos. There are Russians in all the republics of the Byelorussian SSR. But the Mongols remained in Rus' ... For some reason, only in Asia, where they could migrate without any invasion.

[Keer]

Why in the official history of the 4th century BC there may be an Eastern Roman Empire

You're drunk, right?

[Keer]

For example, from Eastern Europe

Croatians perhaps? On vimanas.

[Keer]

Having broken up into caravan groups, trading along the way, provided that the local authorities will graciously let them pass and not rip off too much baksheesh and duties. In principle, it will not work to conquer anyone, and it will be good if the authorities allow weapons to be carried - this is the only way merchants from all over the world could travel. In order to drive 100 people to Derbent in this manner, they would, however, have to sell all their cattle, because they have nothing else to trade, and at the same time sell themselves into slavery.

from, damn it, the toy elephant did not notice. STE, my friend, an uncut diamond, the right word So the Mongols, on the already conquered territory, were chasing the Khorezmshah, after the defeat of his troops there, on the contrary, they were in a hurry to submit. . And the local population did not want to impose baksheesh on the three tumens of Sadubey / Subedey, because the Mongols had a bad habit of massacre and genocide. Especially to violators of their Iasi. (on which, by the way, the stupid Khorezmshah got burned)

[Evil eye]

"Croats"

No, not Croats, but Tatars

"So the Mongols, on the already conquered territory, were chasing the Khorezmshah, after"
I can read fantasy anyway, without you, although George Martin writes more interestingly. I still wonder what the physical evidence of these races is.

[Keer]

Tatars, what? Blue from Altai,
they are on the vimans, so first to Eastern Europe, and then on saddles and to Iran to the Khorezm Shah? Confess to
Fomenkovism-Samsonism and in Rus'-Hyperborea, it will be easier for you.

[Seal]

Example. Kalmyks - they are Oirats, they are Western Mongols, they are the real Mongols. In January 1771, the Mongols living on the left bank of the Volga, numbering from 50 to 100 thousand people (the numbers are most likely inaccurate, in reality there were less significant) rushed across the winter Kazakh steppe to Dzungaria. In a few months of a campaign on the sad surface of reality, being subjected to raids by the Kazakhs (the Oirats had beaten the Kazakhs like dogs for 150 years, and then they naturally recouped them), the Mongols - children of the steppes and owners of amazing horses - lost two-thirds of their livestock and up to a third of "personal composition".
In 1645, the army of the Crimean Khan Kazy-Girey invaded the winter campaign (!) along the Muravsky Way. Due to the weather (frost) and lack of food, the Tatars lost up to half of their horses and up to a third of their warriors. The geography of the raid - the territory of modern Kursk, Belgorod, Voronezh regions. Therefore, the Tatars tried not to go hiking in winter. This is understandable why.

[Keer]

In 1645, the army of the Crimean Khan Kazy-Girey invaded the winter campaign (!) along the Muravsky Way. Due to the weather (frost) and lack of food, the Tatars lost up to half of their horses and up to a third of their warriors. The geography of the raid - the territory of modern Kursk, Belgorod, Voronezh regions. Therefore, the Tatars tried not to go hiking in winter. This is understandable why.

And what does the settled Krymchaks of the 17th century, to the Mughals of the 13th? Except that they are their distant descendants.

Ivan IV at the head of the army left Moscow on December 20, due to an early thaw, 15 versts from Nizhny Novgorod, on February 3, siege artillery and part of the army went under the ice on the Volga [3]. It was decided to return the king from the crossing back to Nizhny Novgorod (where he arrived on February 8), while the main governors with the part of the army that managed to cross reached Kazan, where they engaged in battle with the Kazan army [4]. As a result, the Kazan army retreated behind the walls of the wooden Kremlin, which the Russian army did not dare to storm without siege artillery and, after standing under the walls for seven days and devastating the surroundings, retreated. On March 7, 1548, the tsar returned to Moscow[5].

does it follow that there was no victory for Nevsky on Lake Peipsi?

[Keer]

By the way, now it's your turn to share the sources of the Hyperboreans, their chronicles, the decrees of the "priests of Ivanov", their burial places, cities discovered by archaeologists, or was it all set on fire by the Pope with the British? Research on the short stature and incapacity of Mongolian horses in the 13th century. You, obviously, did not take everything from the ceiling. Enlighten the people, so to speak.

[Konstantin Shevchenko]

How the natives lived in Siberia can be read by N.M. Yadrintsev "Siberia as a Colony" 1882. This is to understand that 500 years ago it was not better. There is no statehood and there is no trace of at least some kind of legacy. Free people with a small detachment led by well-known merchants take power, and later Siberia becomes a Russian state up to Alaska. This is due to excellence in knowledge, where the Mongols suddenly froze in the distant past. Ryleev in Russian Pravda writes about the plight of the natives in Siberia. There are no original chronicles, in particular, about the yoke of the Tatar-Mongols, the first mention was made in Poland, it was there that this topic was promoted, by Jan Dlugosh. It is also not clear with Jan, it raises suspicion that he was given this glory in the 17th century in the same Poland. There are correspondences on paper of the 17th-18th century in Church Slavonic letters. We first need to know the history of paper, when white paper appeared and the transition of woodcuts to block letters with the help of swine letters. We need to find out the authenticity of the publication before talking about the authenticity of history. In 18-19 there were many fakes of antiquity, there is a well-known story of the Izinbek Tablet.
How can one say from European selection that horses have always been in Mongolia? You do not say that cellular communication has always been in Mongolia since the 13th century. Yes, they brought horses, but only from the beginning of trade with Europe, including with Russia. I can guess no earlier than the 18th century. And the first sketches of maps of Siberia were written by Herberstein in 1548, then the colonists were looking for a short way to China through Rus', i.e. at that time there was still no trade with the natives. For Europe, a big Tatar, this is not yet explored territory, roughly speaking a wild land, like America after the discovery. The growth of indigenous Mongolian horses is 126-127 cm. Ancient sources were used not only by the Academy of Sciences in St. Petersburg, headed by foreign specialists, but by Tyuchev, Pushkin and other inspirers of Russian history. But they did not save the original. I am not a supporter of Hyperborea and Rus'-hordes, for me this one is still fantastic. What Samsonov writes is hard for me to read myself, for this we need evidence, confirmation, and not unfoundedness. I can't say anything about this topic.

[Keer]

There are no original chronicles, in particular, about the yoke of the Tatar-Mongols

I already wrote to you Sindh. List of the Novgorod Chronicle I, 13th - 15th century dating of the list itself, those on this particular parchment were written by the chronicler in the 12th century, and besides
Jami at-tavarih
The secret history of the Mongols,
Sheng-wu qin-zheng lu,
Rubruk, Polo,
Lists of other Russian chronicles no later than the 15th century, and that's not all, too lazy to dig.
By horses. Genetic analysis makes it possible to date the moments of separation of breeding lines, crossings, accidental and intentional, etc. So, according to genetics, Mongolian horses are now the same as in the 12th century.

How the natives lived in Siberia can be read by N.M. Yadrintsev "Siberia as a Colony" 1882

so the natives lived in the 19th century, and how the Mongols lived in Karakorum (city) at 13 at the headquarters of Genghis, you can read from Rubruk, for example.

[Evil eye]

We take, for example, the Novgorod Chronicle, we read ...

“The same lie, according to our sins, having come to the languages ​​\uXNUMXb\uXNUMXbof the unknown, their goodness, no one knows who the essence and the origin of the izidosh, and what their language is, and which tribe they are, and what their faith is;”

those. the chronicler definitely says that he does not know where the conquerors came from and who they are at all

“And I’m called Tatars, and I say Taurmens”

Tatars and taurmens. And where are the Mongols? Suppose the Russians then did not know anything about Mongolia (although the Mongols knew about Rus', it turns out), but by what signs can one understand that the conquerors were from there?
“Taurmens” are allegedly Turkmens (also never Mongols), although this word can be interpreted in any way.

“and the friends of Pechenia;”

And others that they are Pechenegs, although modern historians believe that the Tatar-Mongols and Pechenegs are different peoples.

“They say, as if they are, / L. 96. / About them, Methodius, Bishop of Patom, testify, as if they came from the desert of Etrievsky, existing between the East and the North.”

That is, some believe that Bishop Methodius spoke about this people, that this people, which, in accordance with some prophecy, will come out of the Judean Desert (also never Mongolia). Arguments, of course, no other than religious.

In general, you wishful thinking. The annals speak of the invasion of certain "Tatars", but they do not trace any connection with modern Mongolia.

[Keer]

They came from nowhere, according to the Russians, which is especially significant after Kalka for 22 years, for fifteen years they thought they didn’t think of it. Such was our intelligence, like the modern Shoigov. And the Mongols, on the contrary, knew well where they were going and why, fulfilling the precepts of the kurultai for 35 years. They were good with intelligence. It is not surprising that they could not decide where from, they got confused and in whom.

[Evil eye]

Well, yes, the Mongols had an excellent satellite constellation. And as soon as everything was fucked up in 1294? Looks like Gorbachev was also born there in his previous reincarnation.

Therefore, the Novgorod Chronicle does not indicate Mongolia in any way, it was simply pulled by the ears. What about other sources? Can you directly quote some place from which it should be clear that the "Tatars" who came to Rus' were part of the Mongol Empire?

[Serg65]

Quote: Leader_Barmaleev

Applause, curtain.

And how much did this army go to the Barmaleev kingdom ???

[Carmela]

Quote: Leader_Barmaleev

no army from the Mongolian steppes could simply reach Europe

But it has come.

[Evil eye]

The army did not arrive. A group of Mogul warriors could come and enter someone's service. One group is for the Chinese, the other for the Central Asians. Even on good terms, for example, to act like elite mercenaries (although this is strange, but you never know). The existence of the Mongol Empire from Mozha to Mozha does not prove this in any way.

[Keer]

You can argue with hardened people only for pleasure and mockery. One grandmother told them that, they say, the Mongols could not reach, they believed, and then they cannot admit their mistake - pride does not allow, arguments from the moment they took the side do not work on them. They are incapable of self-criticism in principle, and do not even understand what it is and how it can be. Non-working brain.

[Evil eye]

You can argue with officials only for pleasure and mockery. One grandmother told them that, they say, the Mongols captured half the world, they believed, and then they cannot admit their mistake - pride does not allow, arguments from the moment they take sides do not work on them. They are incapable of self-criticism in principle, and do not even understand what it is and how it can be. Non-working brain.

[Seal]

Quote: Carmela

But it has come.

example. Kalmyks - they are Oirats, they are Western Mongols, they are the real Mongols. In January 1771, the Mongols living on the left bank of the Volga, numbering from 50 to 100 thousand people (the numbers are most likely inaccurate, in reality there were less significant) rushed across the winter Kazakh steppe to Dzungaria. In a few months of a campaign on the sad surface of reality, being subjected to raids by the Kazakhs (the Oirats had beaten the Kazakhs like dogs for 150 years, and then they naturally recouped them), the Mongols - children of the steppes and owners of amazing horses - lost two-thirds of their livestock and up to a third of "personal composition". In 1645, the army of the Crimean Khan Kazy-Girey invaded the winter campaign (!) along the Muravsky Way. Due to the weather (frost) and lack of food, the Tatars lost up to half of their horses and up to a third of their warriors. The geography of the raid - the territory of modern Kursk, Belgorod, Voronezh regions. Therefore, the Tatars tried not to go hiking in winter. This is understandable why.

[Evil eye]

Yes, it’s clear that this is all absurdity, but armchair historians argue in such a way that they say, “if it is written like this in the annals, then it was so.” And they are very nervous about reconstructions and checking the physical feasibility of their constructions.
Naturally, hehe, if in the annals it is written about how Prince Vladimir miraculously became blind, and after baptism he regained his sight, or about crocodiles in Novgorod, then the historian rejects these reports. Because they subjectively seem implausible to him. But the Mongol hordes do not seem to be, because there is not enough natural science education.

By the way. There is a very popular fantasy book called Game of Thrones. And there, too, there are steppe conquerors. But they: a) live in a very peculiar highly productive steppe with human-sized grass, b) they don’t take cities by storm, but began to take them only when dragons appeared in them, and c) they were afraid to swim by the sea.

Those. J. Martin's fantasy steppes turned out to be much more realistic than historical ones.

In general, the fear of hordes of nomads is something irrational. This is either a product of the colonialist ideology of the 18-19th century, when Europeans actively seized the lands of the eastern peoples, or vague memories from the past, when a hundred mediocrely armed horsemen were perceived as a "huge horde" and really could, due to their numerical advantage (a hundred for a short time is tolerable for the steppe biocenosis) to bring out some advanced settlement of agricultural peoples.

In general, this is our collective unconscious, fear of hordes of nomads.

[Ulan.1812]

Quote: Evil Eye

Yes, it’s clear that this is all absurdity, but armchair historians argue in such a way that they say, “if it is written like this in the annals, then it was so.” And they are very nervous about reconstructions and checking the physical feasibility of their constructions.
Naturally, hehe, if in the annals it is written about how Prince Vladimir miraculously became blind, and after baptism he regained his sight, or about crocodiles in Novgorod, then the historian rejects these reports. Because they subjectively seem implausible to him. But the Mongol hordes do not seem to be, because there is not enough natural science education.

By the way. There is a very popular fantasy book called Game of Thrones. And there, too, there are steppe conquerors. But they: a) live in a very peculiar highly productive steppe with human-sized grass, b) they don’t take cities by storm, but began to take them only when dragons appeared in them, and c) they were afraid to swim by the sea.

Those. J. Martin's fantasy steppes turned out to be much more realistic than historical ones.

In general, the fear of hordes of nomads is something irrational. This is either a product of the colonialist ideology of the 18-19th century, when Europeans actively seized the lands of the eastern peoples, or vague memories from the past, when a hundred mediocrely armed horsemen were perceived as a "huge horde" and really could, due to their numerical advantage (a hundred for a short time is tolerable for the steppe biocenosis) to bring out some advanced settlement of agricultural peoples.

In general, this is our collective unconscious, fear of hordes of nomads.

If you personally do not know about reconstructions, this does not mean that they did not exist.

[novel66]

And, kilometers, wild thousands of kilometers!! They don’t go that far on a raid, but no one talked about the resettlement of peoples!

And that's it, the army died of hunger.

But no! The Mongols drank the blood of horses and so they were alive !! I read in a book

[Derbes19]

Poor horses! And how much horse blood should be drunk per day for the average Mongolian?)

[Leader_Barmaleev]

The Mongols drank the blood of horses and so they were alive !! I read in a book

Was it a non-science fiction book or just fantasy "on the topic"? Did you accidentally confuse the Mongols with the Masai? Any veterinarian will confirm to you that even a small blood loss for a horse is much more dangerous than heavy blood loss, for example, in a person. Horses are herbivores, and grass is very low in iron, so horses regenerate hemoglobin very slowly. And a horse with anemia on itself will not drag the rider away, moreover, it will quickly get tired and fall. So than drinking blood from a horse, it’s better to just eat it.

[Ulan.1812]

Quote: novel xnumx

And, kilometers, wild thousands of kilometers!! They don’t go that far on a raid, but no one talked about the resettlement of peoples!

And that's it, the army died of hunger.

But no! The Mongols drank the blood of horses and so they were alive !! I read in a book

Who's talking about the run? A day to see how the conquests of the Horde went?
The raids were already after the conquest as a punishment for disobedience. Nevryuev's army for example.

[Bumblebee]

If we take the Kalmyks as an example. At the end of the 1771th - beginning of the XNUMXth centuries, they migrated from Dzungaria to the Volga. Hundreds of thousands of people, hundreds of thousands of cattle. Grass was enough, horses, cattle, MRs, camels were not eaten)) Well, it was a long transition. Took years. But, in XNUMX, the Kalmyk horde went back. Again, hundreds of thousands of people, hundreds of thousands of cattle. In winter. Through the frozen Volga. And they arrived. During the year. Children, old people, women through hostile lands. So why do you think that a combat-ready army cannot go this way?

[Ulan.1812]

Quote: Bumblebee

If we take the Kalmyks as an example. At the end of the 1771th - beginning of the XNUMXth centuries, they migrated from Dzungaria to the Volga. Hundreds of thousands of people, hundreds of thousands of cattle. Grass was enough, horses, cattle, MRs, camels were not eaten)) Well, it was a long transition. Took years. But, in XNUMX, the Kalmyk horde went back. Again, hundreds of thousands of people, hundreds of thousands of cattle. In winter. Through the frozen Volga. And they arrived. During the year. Children, old people, women through hostile lands. So why do you think that a combat-ready army cannot go this way?

Last year, enthusiasts from Kalmykia made a horse ride to Moscow in winter.

[Derbes19]

How many thousands of enthusiasts from Kalmykia participated in this transition? What ammunition did you use? Did you take medicines on the road or not? Have the horses been vaccinated or not? And other thousands of little things ... In general, not an example at all.

[Ulan.1812]

Quote from: Derbes19

How many thousands of enthusiasts from Kalmykia participated in this transition? What ammunition did you use? Did you take medicines on the road or not? Have the horses been vaccinated or not? And other thousands of little things ... In general, not an example at all.

Find it and see for yourself. You still demand from me the height of each horse at the withers. The story was on TV.

[Ulan.1812]

Quote: Leader_Barmaleev

Well, finally, someone decided to speak out against this well-established mega-fake, with which our officials and liberals were happy to justify Russia's technological backwardness. I will also contribute my seven kopecks to the destruction of this myth. Background - in Soviet times, on a voluntary basis, I led a biological circle in one of the schools. He took the matter seriously - we not only hung birdhouses and cleaned streams, but also studied thoughtfully and consistently the general principles of biology. The kids in the circle were smart - two of them are now academicians and I am proud that there is my merit in this. So...
We discussed somehow biocenoses. Actually, there was nothing particularly difficult with biocenoses, but abrupt changes in the biocenosis can lead to fatal consequences. As a factor of abrupt changes, the anthropogenic factor was considered as the most dangerous and unpredictable. And here, almost by accident, the conversation went to the STEPPE - the most delicate and unstable biocenosis. Imagine that an army is marching across the steppe. Equestrian. It does not go fast, since the most enduring horses can carry no more than 20% of their own weight, and you have to carry a lot, since there are no settlements and warehouses with provisions in the steppe. Horses, like people, want to eat, you won’t take a lot of oats in a wagon train, that is, the basis of the diet of horses and sheep (live canned food) is steppe grass. Feather grass, bluegrass, bent grass, etc. And let's count - there is an army of ten thousand people - this is at least thirty thousand horses - for each one combat, one spare and one pack. The grass mass in the steppe is 400-600 grams (during rains up to two kilograms) per square meter, a horse needs at least twenty kilograms of grass per day. And now estimate on what area should this army disperse so that the horses eat ??? And will such an army be manageable due to its dispersal? The next moment - the period of grass stand in the steppe is short, in order to have food you need to move to the rivers, but the rivers along the route of the horde flow either to the north or to the south, and you need to move to the west, and in some places through the mountains, AND THERE ARE NO ROADS AND FOOD STOPS ALSO . And then winter comes - there are no haystacks and granaries along the way, there are no villages and villages - there is even no one to rob. And that's it, the army died of hunger. First, horses will be eaten, and then ... Well, you understand that no army from the Mongolian steppes could simply reach Europe. Applause, curtain.

Agree. Macedonian, Huns, Ottomans, Tamerlane also could not get anywhere.

[Nikolay Malyugin]

All this looks like a modern advertisement - "A remedy for cockroaches and brownies."

[andrewkor]

And I believe in such a concept! Especially about the "mongoid" nature of the Russian ethnic group, or rather, in its absence!
From personal: my daughter is Russian, son-in-law (former) mestizo (mother is Russian, father is Georgian), granddaughter with a characteristic nose, but beautiful and smart. There is already a clear dominance of the father's genes!
The stepdaughter is Russian, the son-in-law is a mestizo (Turkish-Uzbek), the grandson is a hare to her mother, and the granddaughter to her father, an oriental beauty, model appearance.
There are many Koreans in Uzbekistan, from pre-war times. So their blood interrupts any genes. This is where the obvious mongodoidness is. All exclusively children from marriages with Koreans and Kreyans with other nations are Mongoloids!

[Ryaruav]

Yes, how much can you test nerves for torsion and compression, Samsonov and Fomenko will not calm down in any way

[parusnik]

The myth of the Tatar-Mongol yoke

The soul rushed to paradise .. About Tartaria, but it’s not written ..

River flotillas from ushki - vessels of the "river-sea" class

You are mistaken, ears, they were not such universal ships, there were sea and river ears, the main difference between sea and river ears: the first had a deck, the second without deck. I don’t want to disassemble the rest.

[far diu]

Yes, I remember this nonsense. They also said that Tartaria used nuclear weapons or something similar against the Napoleonic army)))))

[Tochilka]

Uranium fission was discovered in December 1938. So the "nucleus" from 1812 is excluded.
There was something else logically. I would like to look at the then "launchers". pure technology evaluate.

[kalibr]

Quote: Tochilka

Uranium fission was discovered in December 1938

Actually 200 years earlier. This is all the Vatican rewrote our chronicles, and foreign chronicles at the same time.

[Tochilka]

Probably the intrigues of the Illuminati. They even made a movie about it.
The Vatican also coined and coined the names of Otto Hahn, Carl Weizsäcker and Niels Bohr! And Enrico Fermi is a thoroughly mythical character from legends and anecdotes!

[UA3QHP]

Here I tried to impose modern dates on the narration of Krpini, I didn’t finish, of course, but I suggest reading it. Bold type is my notes.

[abrakadabre]

Uranium fission was discovered in December 1938. So the "nucleus" from 1812 is excluded.
There was something else logically. I would like to look at the then "launchers". pure technology evaluate.

Forget the dirty bomb. On the sly, uranium ore was mixed with manure, molded from a mixture of logs and, after drying, slipped to French foragers as fuel for the troops. As a result, the potency, sorry, the potential of Napoleon's army fell sharply. The enemy was defeated.

[Tochilka]

I note that uranium ore is not very radioactive, tea is not an isotope! But in general, a very logical and believable version! I take off my hat!

[novel66]

The story affects...

As an astute reader will easily guess, this section will focus on the most fantastic details of "Batu's invasion", on the most fabulous stories.

Of course, one should start with the amazing Chinese rockets and powder shells, supposedly taken over by the "Mongols" and successfully used in the campaigns of conquest.


Fig. 11

Fig. 12
Reading is more exciting. The illustrations are even more striking - in fig. 11 "Mongolian manual rocket launcher", in fig. 12 - downright ancient Chinese prototype of "Katyusha". And the details...

Easy!! [quote][/quote]

[bk0010]

Quote: far diu

Yes, I remember this nonsense. They also said that Tartaria used nuclear weapons or something similar against the Napoleonic army)))))

This is not nonsense. I personally saw the same nuclear weapons that were used against Napoleon. Caliber - 12 pounds, like (it was a long time ago).

[abrakadabre]

River flotillas from ushki - vessels of the "river-sea" class

The main difference between sea-class lugs is the ability to enter geostationary orbit without refueling rowers with mead. While the river class of ushkoy is capable of doing nothing more than a suborbital dive, sorry, a jump between river basins. And even then, only in the combat mode of enhanced rowing and with a fair wind. Any earbud will tell you that...

[Rurikovich]

Again you, comrade Samsonov, destroyed the hornet's nest Now "docents" with "candidates" from the historical "sciences" will run up and tell you that you are mediocre and there is generally nothing to climb into their sacred temple of history. They are scientists!
And for how long I have been confronted with the modern ignorance of scientists in this area, that I practically do not even comment on historical dogmas at least here. Because it's useless!! Never will people who cool invented events at the state level take into account the arguments of engineers, mineralogists, many evidence will be destroyed or gather dust in storerooms, and the usual LOGICAL arguments will be ridiculed or ignored by them ....
For they are scientists, and you (we) are ignorant and ignorant ...
Article plus because there was no yoke

[kalibr]

Quote: Rurikovich

Article plus because there was no yoke

And all our chronicles were copied by spies from the Vatican and no one noticed this. our ancestors were

[Uncle lee]

Quote: kalibr

and no one noticed it.

Mikhailo Lomonosov noticed and fought with these "scientific Germans"! But admiration for the West overpowered, and rolled this "yoke".

[Ulan.1812]

Quote: Uncle Lee

Quote: kalibr

and no one noticed it.

Mikhailo Lomonosov noticed and fought with these "scientific Germans"! But admiration for the West overpowered, and rolled this "yoke".

Lomonosov did not deny the Horde invasion. Headbutting was about the Norman theory.

[Evil eye]

Historians are like professional soldiers. Only the military "does not have fools in the General Staff," but historians in the Academy of Sciences.
The point, of course, is not that everyone there is completely stupid, but that when science, instead of logic, tries to put pressure on authority, then this is no longer science, but ideology.

[Mavrikiy]

Quote from Evil Eye

The point, of course, is not that everyone there is completely stupid, but that when science, instead of logic, tries to put pressure on authority, then this is no longer science, but ideology.

Everything is easier. This is not an ideology, but a FEEDER for "those who have defended themselves and other established respected people who do not forget to lick Western grants .... And then impudent people come up with an opinion that calls into question their competence in history.

[Ulan.1812]

Quote: Rurikovich

Again you, comrade Samsonov, destroyed the hornet's nest Now "docents" with "candidates" from the historical "sciences" will run up and tell you that you are mediocre and there is generally nothing to climb into their sacred temple of history. They are scientists!
And for how long I have been confronted with the modern ignorance of scientists in this area, that I practically do not even comment on historical dogmas at least here. Because it's useless!! Never will people who cool invented events at the state level take into account the arguments of engineers, mineralogists, many evidence will be destroyed or gather dust in storerooms, and the usual LOGICAL arguments will be ridiculed or ignored by them ....
For they are scientists, and you (we) are ignorant and ignorant ...
Article plus because there was no yoke

Then Rurik also did not exist and there were no Rurikovichs either.
.

[Mavrikiy]

Quote: Ulan.1812

Then Rurik also did not exist and there were no Rurikovichs either.
.

Cruel! How can Rurikovich live in this world after that?

[Mavrikiy]

The terrible "Mongol-Tatar yoke" began. This is the official version from the time of Karamzin promoted in Russia.

200 years is not enough, is it? Author in Military Review History
The myth of the "Tatar-Mongol yoke" January 5, 2018

As noted earlier, the myth of the “Mongols from Mongolia” was invented in the conceptual and ideological center of the West, which holds the “keys” to history, in papal Rome. The Russian superethnos (Rus) has existed since the very beginning of the appearance of the white race on the planet, our history is at least 40-45 thousand years old. However, the true history of Rus' and the superethnos was "cut off" and distorted in the interests of the masters of the West and their lackeys-serfs in Russia, who want to become part of the "world civilized community" at any cost, even at the cost of surrendering their homeland

. I think that under Katya, the Schletsers wrote and under Petya they rewrote history, and even earlier corrected in monasteries for the sake of those in power...

[Uncle lee]

Quote: Mavrikiy

our history is at least 40-45 thousand years old.

The Russian kingdom until the seventeenth century, the chronology led, according to the Slavic calendar, starting from 5508 BC. It turns out that now we have 7529 from the Creation of the world, and not 2021 from the Nativity of Christ.
Source: https://novate.ru/blogs/210921/60621/

[Mavrikiy]

Quote: Uncle Lee

Quote: Mavrikiy

our history is at least 40-45 thousand years old.

The Russian kingdom until the seventeenth century, the chronology led, according to the Slavic calendar, starting from 5508 BC. It turns out that now we have 7529 from the Creation of the world, and not 2021 from the Nativity of Christ.
Source: https://novate.ru/blogs/210921/60621/

Dear, read carefully and write adequately.our history is at least 40-45 thousand years old.This article was written by the author in 2018. As for the reckoning from the Creation of the world, this is known, and the annals are all kept in this system. And 40-45 thousand years of our carved history, this is also possible.

However, the true history of Rus' and the superethnos was "cut off" and distorted in the interests of the masters of the West and their lackeys-serfs in Russia,

And you, excuse me from what?

[far diu]

Author, this article should be published in the ''opinion'' category. This article has nothing to do with history at all.

[abrakadabre]

Author, this article should be published in the ''opinion'' category.

This is more a question for the site administration. If she cares about her own reputation as a serious media outlet.

[Carmela]

Quote: abrakadabre

Author, this article should be published in the ''opinion'' category.
This is more a question for the site administration. If she cares about her own reputation as a serious media outlet.

Reputable publications do not publish such articles.

[monster]

what the hell did I just read?! O_0 omagad omagad

[Luminman]

It looks like the author smoked something before writing the article...

[abrakadabre]

It looks like the author smoked something before writing the article...

And something clearly prohibited for use. And not just from the list of "strictly by prescription."

[Pane Kohanku]

It looks like the author smoked something before writing the article...

Anatoly, he does this at least once a year. "Saddles his beloved horse" about Russian-Aryans and Scythian-Slavs, writes provocative material and collects hype in the form of general abuse, curses in his address, clicks and views.
The only time in my memory when an article collected more than 1000 comments was at the end of 2018, Mr. Samsonov issued a similar libel that, they say, there was no Mongol, there were only Scythian-arias within "single superethnos named after St. Prophet A. Samsonov".
Can you imagine what was on the site then? It was a "war of the worlds" on the forum. I repeat - more than 1000 comments under one article. The record is not broken, in my memory.

[kor1vet1974]

writes provocative material and collects hype in the form of general abuse

Articles on Kresnovsky, as well as on the Cossacks, the author began to collect very few comments and "gave it to the mountain."

[kalibr]

Quote: Pane Kohanku

The record is not broken, in my memory.

No, not beaten. I know exactly.

[Pane Kohanku]

No, not beaten. I know exactly.

So I don't remember. It was the most scandalous sur that I have ever seen in VO.

[Carmela]

Quote: Pane Kohanku

writes provocative material and collects hype in the form of general abuse, curses, clicks and views.

Well, why are you participating in this insanity?

[sergo1914]

I apologize for the denseness (I was in the bath for a long time), but in the fall a new feature of VO appeared - aliens from the Pleiades. Did the Tartars win?

[kalibr]

Oh my God! Did the Vatican also rewrite 5000 volumes of our annals?

[sergo1914]

Quote: kalibr

Oh my God! Did the Vatican also rewrite 5000 volumes of our annals?

Are you talking about scientific communism? About your main specialization?

[kalibr]

Quote: sergo1914

Are you talking about scientific communism? About your main specialization?

Is that really you... or is it a clever disguise?

[sergo1914]

Quote: kalibr

Quote: sergo1914

Are you talking about scientific communism? About your main specialization?

Is that really you... or is it a clever disguise?

At first I thought that these were volumes of Marx, Engels, Lenin ...

[kalibr]

Understood - disguise! Sorry, I'm not smart enough to write a normal comment

[ee2100]

Maybe you can quote from 5000 volumes, where it is written about the Mongol yoke?

[kalibr]

Quote: ee2100

Maybe you can quote from 5000 volumes, where it is written about the Mongol yoke?

I would, but I don't have the time or desire to delve into 5000 volumes. And ... whatever you bring, everything is useless. How do people say? "Though pissing in the eyes, all the dew from the night."

[ee2100]

There is nothing to bring. There is not a single mention of the Mongols.
VOSH can only be rude.

[Evil eye]

Have you read chronicles? Are you sure there are 5000 volumes? And what are the "Mongols" called there? If anything, then in the chronicles for some reason they are "Tatars", and not Mongols.

[Ulan.1812]

Quote: Evil Eye

Have you read chronicles? Are you sure there are 5000 volumes? And what are the "Mongols" called there? If anything, then in the chronicles for some reason they are "Tatars", and not Mongols.

But nothing that the Tatars are one of the Mongol tribes.
So there is no contradiction. There is also the name -khinela. That is, the Han, the Chinese.

[Evil eye]

Lol, where is the evidence that they were Mongolian Tatars, and not our local ones))

[Ulan.1812]

Quote: kalibr

Oh my God! Did the Vatican also rewrite 5000 volumes of our annals?

It's the Vatican. Rewrote and wrote the inscription. And not only the Vatican. Everyone agreed. By phone or on the Internet. Descendants as a general assembly, it seems, are not observed.

[tth]

This is at least Daria Dontsova was supposed to work for the Vatican, and not alone)

[Seal]

Quote: kalibr

Oh my God! Did the Vatican also rewrite 5000 volumes of our annals?

Chronicles were not written in volumes. Chronicles were published in volumes. According to the order of Nicholas I. And there are not 5000 volumes, but only 23 volumes.

"Complete collection of Russian chronicles" (PSRL), serial publication in Russian. chronicles. Started in 1841 by the Archeographic Commission. In 1841-63, 10 volumes (1-9 and 15) were printed, then the publication was suspended. Volumes 1885–1918 and 10–14 were published in 16–23. In 1898 and 1908 the Index of Persons and the Geographic Index were published for the first 8 volumes.

And about who rewrote it is an interesting question. Apparently, the then alternatives, who later became "officials" ruled.
The oldest Russian chronicle was called The Tale of Bygone Years.
But in the PVL there is nothing about the Tatars or the Mongols.
Next comes the Laurentian Chronicle. It is precisely this that is the main source of our “knowledge” about the Tatar or, as it has recently become fashionable, about the “Mongolian” conquest of Rus'.

We read G. M. PROKHOROV, who conducted a codicological analysis of the Laurentian Chronicle.

A codicological analysis of the Laurentian Chronicle (manuscript of 1377) made it possible to discover that the producers of the manuscript replaced its already written sheets 153-164, and some of these sheets, apparently, were replaced more than once. And here's what's remarkable. The replaced sheets just tightly cover in the annals all the news about the conquest of Rus' by the Tatar-Mongols: on the front side l. 153 there is the first record about the Tatars (“Yavishas yazitsi, and no one is kind to clearly know who the essence and where is the izidosh ...”), on the reverse side of this sheet there is a story about the battle on Kalka (1223), and on turnover . 164 - the latest news about the military actions of the Tatars in Rus' (1240) (“Take Kiev Tatarov ...”). 2 In addition, page 167, also not the original in the code, contains a story about the uprising against the "besurmen" in 1262 in the Rostov-Suzdal land. It is clear that the alteration in the manuscript is connected precisely with the Tatar theme. The main attention of the remodelers (we can talk about the main scribe, the “mnih” of Lawrence, and about the owner of the handwriting, invading in three places - on folios 157, 161 and 167 - the handwriting of Lawrence) was concentrated, as shown by the “traces” left by him, in gap between 158 and 164 sheets. And it is within these limits - on ll. 159 rev.- 164 rev. - we find a coherent, continuous narrative about the tragic events of 1237-1239. - the story of Batu's invasion of Rus' (it does not have a special heading in the annals; beginning: "The same summer, for the winter, I came from the eastern countries to the Ryazan land with the forest of godlessness of the Tatars"). Obviously, this story of the Laurentian Chronicle is, to some extent, a work of the scribes of 1377.
But to what extent and in what way was the work of the scribes creative?
V. L. Komarovich drew attention to the extraordinary richness of the story about Batu's army (placed) in the Laurentian Chronicle, borrowings and the previous part of the annalistic narration. Indeed, this feature sharply distinguishes the text of the Tale from its environment. Outside its limits, throughout the remaining 170 sheets of the chronicle, it is possible to notice no more than a dozen and a half undoubted repetitions of periods, phrases or revolutions. On the six occupied by the story (The story of Batu's invasion - my footnote) there are thirty-three inclusions of different sizes on the sheets. In general, this mosaic makes up about a third of the volume of the story. Let's show these cases.
At the very beginning of the story, to describe the defeat of the Ryazan principalities by the Tatars, the description of the defeat of the Byzantine coasts in 941 by the retinue of Prince Igor was used:
-10 (941). . . and more often fight the Bethany countries and fight along Pontus to Arklai and to the Faflogonian land, and the whole country of Nicomedia was captivated and the Court was burned; and eat these rastinaha, other countries like supplying and shooting at me, izimahut, opaki and tying up, iron nails in the middle of the heads to beat them; many saints of the church were betrayed by fire, the monastery and the village were burned, and there were a lot of estates in both countries. Then came the howling from the east ....

- 159 about. (1237). . . and more often to fight the Ryazan land, and planning to Pronsk, captivating Ryazan's weight and burning and killing their prince; and eat ovs rastinahut, others shoot arrows at me, and others opaki rutsi tie up; many saints have betrayed the churches, and burned the monasteries and villages, there are a lot of estates in both countries; then go to Kolomna.

The second time the author-editor went to the same source to tell about the ruin of Moscow: “the city and the churches of the holy fires were betrayed and all the monasteries and the villages were burned, and many estates were taken away” (l. 160).
Extracts from the articles of 1185, 1186 and 1093 were put into the mouths of the princes of Vladimir Vsevolod and Mstislav:
That's the question. What alternatives and when did they need to insert sheets describing the conquest of Rus' by the Tatars into that chronicle, which they then began to call "Laurentievskaya" (these alternatives apparently did not know anything about the Mongols, otherwise they would have immediately inserted the Mongols).

[Nikolaevich I]

As my friend said, using a compilation of two "similar" expressions: "The legend is fresh, but it's hard to see..."! What to do with the Russian language, which has a lot of "Tatar" borrowings? There is a Russian word "horse" ("komon") and there is a Tatar "horse" ... Two different words denoting the same thing! And there are many such "verbal" examples! But what about standing on the Ugra in 1480? And the duel in 1380 between Peresvet and Chelubey? Not Peresvet and Vladislav, representatives of the "one" world! And Peresvet and Chelubey, representatives of different (!) Worlds!

There is an expression: Pull an owl on a globe ... as an example of unnecessary, and maybe even hard work! The author "successfully" refutes such an opinion ... it's easy for him to "pull an owl on a globe"!

[abrakadabre]

The author "successfully" refutes such an opinion ... it's easy for him to "pull an owl on a globe"!

Well, like this. This is the standard of intimate relations promoted by the West - to pull the unnatural on the unnatural.

[Glory1974]

But what about standing on the Ugra in 1480? And the duel in 1380 between Peresvet and Chelubey? Not Peresvet and Vladislav, representatives of the "one" world! And Peresvet and Chelubey, representatives of different (!) Worlds!

It’s interesting to the articles that Chelubey was, you believe, but you don’t believe the articles that there was no Chelubey.
In both cases, the evidence is the same.

[Nikolaevich I]

Quote: glory1974

It’s interesting to the articles that Chelubey was, you believe, but you don’t believe the articles that there was no Chelubey

Aha! An “expert”, pimply from unsatisfied hormones, should come and say: “Vadik was there ... I swear by my grandmother!” ... and I must immediately believe?

[Ulan.1812]

Quote: glory1974

But what about standing on the Ugra in 1480? And the duel in 1380 between Peresvet and Chelubey? Not Peresvet and Vladislav, representatives of the "one" world! And Peresvet and Chelubey, representatives of different (!) Worlds!

It’s interesting to the articles that Chelubey was, you believe, but you don’t believe the articles that there was no Chelubey.
In both cases, the evidence is the same.

Well, was there a standing on the Ugra or not? What about the Battle of Molodi?

[Evil eye]

You better think about why all linguistic borrowings are from Turkic languages, and not from Mongolian. Turks, Tatars live next to us. To borrow some words from them, you do not need to drag poor Mongolian shepherds from the other side of the world.

[Konstantin Shevchenko]

Standing on the Ugra has nothing to do with the Mongols. Have you seen where it is? This is a river. This is more like the truth. So the roads were river and sea along the coast. And they attacked along the Dnieper. The Dnieper never flows into Mongolia. Recall Yermak, who, on boats with a small detachment, defeated your entire beloved Great Monopoly with the Tatars)))) The natives attacked Rus', this is complete nonsense of an unprecedented fantasy. Before Peter 1, there were no iron mines in Rus'. Silver, tin, iron were bought from Europe. In Rus' there was swamp iron, which could only be enough for tools. I’ll check more that it was the Europeans in armor and on horseback who attacked Rus'. If you look closely at the children's drawings of the chronicle, then the attack of the Europeans is more like the truth than the natives on Rus'.

[Parabelum]

What is this nonsense? I had blood coming out of my eyes. That is, the Arabic chronicles, the Chinese about the invasion of Genghis Khan, are they fakes?

[kalibr]

Quote: Parabelum

That is, the Arabic chronicles, the Chinese about the invasion of Genghis Khan, are they fakes?

Everything was rewritten by agents of the Vatican, and China never existed at all - the creation of the British!

[Ulan.1812]

Quote: kalibr

Quote: Parabelum

That is, the Arabic chronicles, the Chinese about the invasion of Genghis Khan, are they fakes?

Everything was rewritten by agents of the Vatican, and China never existed at all - the creation of the British!

Exactly. And Macedonian was not the same obvious fake that he conquered from Egypt to India.
He wouldn't have enough food for the horses. And there were no Huns and Tamerlane and the conquests of the Ottomans, this is all a fake that Miller came up with and made everyone believe.

[Konstantin Shevchenko]

But there is no China now)) You open a map in English and try to find China. On the old maps of the British, which were drawn before Yermak's trip to Siberia. Here on these maps there is the Chinese Sea, with which the Ob River is connected. There is also the city of Khanbalyk from the Turkic language tsarryba. It was to this city that Marco Polo traveled. It is on these maps that China is written in Latin.

[ee2100]

You read them and decide for yourself whether they are fake or not.
And also when they were written, by whom they were written and when they appeared.
And what is not unimportant is who translated them.

[Glory1974]

Arab chronicles, Chinese about the invasion of Genghis Khan are fakes?

But the chronicles about the execution of the Poles in Katyn are fake or not? It was 80 years ago, but no one can say for sure.
And what happened 800 years ago, is it known unambiguously?

[Ulan.1812]

Quote: glory1974

Arab chronicles, Chinese about the invasion of Genghis Khan are fakes?

But the chronicles about the execution of the Poles in Katyn are fake or not? It was 80 years ago, but no one can say for sure.
And what happened 800 years ago, is it known unambiguously?

Chronicle of the execution of the Poles in Katyn? Cool.
Maybe you have a chronicle of the Battle of Stalingrad in your stash?
And who does not know about the execution of the Poles by the Germans in Katyn?

[Ulan.1812]

Quote: Parabelum

What is this nonsense? I had blood coming out of my eyes. That is, the Arabic chronicles, the Chinese about the invasion of Genghis Khan, are they fakes?

Like Vysotsky, Churchill came up with it all in the eighteenth year.

[billy bones]

I advise the moderators to create an "alternative history" section on the site and post such things there.

[kor1vet1974]

"alternative history"

This is not even an "alternative history" ... But it's not clear what ...

[billy bones]

Agree. It's even worse. But I adhere to censorship rules.

[Pane Kohanku]

This is not even an "alternative history" ... But it's not clear what ...

Allocate a separate section to A. Samsonov. yourself beloved! (dear administration, please do not be offended)

[setter]

Allocate a separate section to A. Samsonov. yourself beloved!

And call it "Samsonovshchina". I propose to expand and deepen the idea by creating several personal sections: "Stavershchina", "Mitrofanovshchina", "Frolovshchina", etc. etc.

[Pane Kohanku]

And call it "Samsonovshchina".

I will support this name, especially since we fixed this expression / concept at one time.
I will refrain from the rest. "Domokl" at one time very fairly pardoned me, for which he has my sincere respect. I will not speak against him.
And the concept of "another portion of selected Samsonism" is already a classic on the site, sir. It started from Alaska in January-February 2017, as you remember.
Mr. Samsonov then became the only and unique in the "history" section, which, by its "alternative vision of history" managed to scold absolutely everyone on the forum. If before that the section was not very visited, only for history lovers, and everyone communicated peacefully, then after an exchange of views about "Lament for Lost Alaska" - everyone quarreled. Yesterday people were squeezing by correspondence to each other under articles, and suddenly it started ... The commentators broke up into such currents - patriots, liberals, alternatives, communists, onanists, infidels, etc. "Lady Dee" (well, you understand who I'm talking about) then, in general, specifically spoiled the entire forum with her provocations and verbal diarrhea.
It was then that the section of "history" was divided from peaceful to polarized ... And the author of this - exactly what - Mr. Samsonov.

[Stirbjorn]

Quote: Pane Kohanku

Allocate a separate section to A. Samsonov. yourself beloved!

so there are several of them according to rumors there are quite adequate ones, and those about the Russians are shoved everywhere, yes, a clinic

[Pane Kohanku]

so there are several of them according to rumors

Heard this many times. However, his articles about the Anschluss of Austria in 1938 did not lag behind Wikipedia. Sometimes word for word. If anyone is interested, check the similarity about Hitler's speech after the occupation of Austria. Well, you understand - copy-paste, it's not to sit in historical archives.

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Pane, my fifth point feels that they will wind up our tails with you. Three skins will be removed in bans and the cellar will be forced to look at the jars of milk !!!

[Pane Kohanku]

Pane, my fifth point feels that they will wind up our tails with you. Three skins will be removed in bans and the cellar will be forced to look at the jars of milk !!!

hello furry I hope they don't screw up. In general, we told the truth. And this is with full respect for our administration. Vlad, we have been on this site for seven or eight years, I have been since 2015. Well, and, as it were, without undue self-conceit, we somehow made the current state of the "history" section the way it is now.
So I hope they don't cheat. We are for the site with all four paws, we are used to communicating here, and every day we run here. But, probably, the esteemed administration sometimes needs to cut off the zeal of Mr. Samsonov, because the word "samsonism", EMNIP, has become a household name since 2017.
Pay attention when Mr. Samsonov tries to write pseudo-serious articles on historical topics (copywriting some source from the tsarist time) - no one reads him. It's not interesting to people.
But then he systematically recoups on the Scythian-Aryans, provoking us, the forum participants, to Derr Grosse Swear...

[abrakadabre]

I advise the moderators to create an "alternative history" section on the site and post such things there.

The content of this opus is rather drawn to the heading "intellectual pornhub". I beg your pardon for what I said.

[kor1vet1974]

The author, I offer you the following series of articles: The myth of the conquest of China by the Mongols, The myth of the conquest of Central Asia by the Mongols, The myth of the conquest of Transcaucasia by the Mongols, and like a cherry on the cake: The myth of the battle of Kalka ..

[abrakadabre]

and like a cherry on the cake: The myth of the battle on Kalka ..

Rather, the cherry should be "The myth of the existence of nomads and Mongolia"

[kor1vet1974]

Rather, the cherry should be "The myth of the existence of nomads and Mongolia"

We will not break spears, what will become a cherry, let the author decide.

[Serg65]

Quote: kor1vet1974

The myth of the conquest of China by the Mongols, the myth of the conquest of Central Asia by the Mongols, the myth of the conquest of Transcaucasia by the Mongols

Somehow you ignored Hungary and Poland, as well as Persia and Syria ... it's a shame, however

[Evil eye]

You say that like it's not a myth

[north 2]

I want to note to the author of the article that history is not what was told, but what happened ...! And what happened, this is written in the materials of the archives. Here are the materials from which archives the author refers to, claiming that there was no Tatar-Mongol yoke in Rus'. There is not a word about these materials in the article.
Even with logic, some of the statements here somehow do not fit. If the term Tatar-Mongol yoke, like the term Kievan Rus, was invented by the Romanov court historian and admirer of everything English and everything Polish Karamzin, then how can one think like Karamzin, declaring in an article to us that there was no Tatar-Mongol yoke in Rus'. After all, just at the suggestion of Karamzin and the ardent Ukrainophile Maksimovich, in historiography the terms Vladimir Rus, Novgorod Rus, Suzdal Rus were sent into oblivion, as if these "Rus" had never existed, and every day they began to hammer in Karamzin and Maksimovich the coined term Kievan Rus . Kievan Rus ... By this they tried to belittle the importance of the Vladimir, Suzdal, Ryazan, Moscow princes, and with such articles that there was no yoke at all, here they are trying to belittle the three hundred years of Russian suffering from this yoke and the struggle of Russians against the Tatar-Mongol yoke. They say , there was no yoke ...

[Guran33 Sergey]

Another subverter of history .. First, about one thing,about genetics, there are no traces either at the level of statistics, and then in the "prosperous" layers (boyars, etc.) .. And now the reality of the late nineteenth century-in hungry winters, the peasants of the middle zone of the Republic of Ingushetia stopped feeding the younger ones (more often babies) so that at least someone would survive ... And what do you readers think, where did this wonderful tradition come from? From there, from the inevitable two or three years of hunger strikes as a result of the invasion, and guess three times who stopped feeding in the first place? These very fruits of violence ... Further, the shepherds, everything is correct, but they are the owners and the owners have the Chinese, and China was already in those days a state with a well-built "vertical". Well, then it’s complete nonsense .. I wonder what the author smoked during the writing of this opus in the spirit of the unforgettable Fomenko?

[Evil eye]

Like, a hunger strike - is it necessary from the invasion? And just crop failures do not suit you?
A boy with a finger, whom his parents abandoned in the forest during a famine year - are these also folklore memories of the Mongol invasion, or was it just that the life of the peasants was periodically worthless?

[Guran33 Sergey]

This "nice habit of humanity has probably been going on since the Stone Age .. But after the campaigns of the Genghisides across the territory of Rus' and the further yasachnitsa on the territory of Rus', there were few able-bodied men and women of childbearing age who died during sieges and in battles and were driven to the Crimea for sale. Therefore, then famine reigned for several years until the change grew. The hunger strike "satisfied, but in those troubled times, the population on the territory of Rus' was relatively small in relation to the area of ​​​​residence and without black-and-white they lived hungry but without extreme sports .. And yes! Vidas about the tumens (army) of the great commander of all times and peoples Subedei (at the level of the tyrant Alexander the Great, Generalisimus Suvorov) Now psychologists reign in the army and motivate for a feat, but then they didn’t know this word, but they knew how to break the spine without depriving a warrior of his life, here you are motivation of iron discipline and perseverance in battles. and this is not a Roman lottery of decimation, this is the eastern prose of life - one ran or did not fulfill the order one-all ten in which he consisted of the spine and thrown along the path of the horde, a dozen runs - it’s creepy and a hundred will die for a long time

[Guran33 Sergey]

A boy with a finger is a translation and adaptation from German. Read the Brothers Grimm without exception and you will understand how much the Orthodox were more philanthropic than the papal parishioners

[ee2100]

The topic is not new. The fact that the Mongols were on European territory was not clear.
Amused "Yaroslav Nevsky"
It's like Pavlik Matrosov!
It is not for Samsonov to write on this subject.

[2 Level Advisor]

History is the version of past events that the majority agrees with. And the rest, in fact, is difficult to discuss .. it would seem that a hundred years have not passed, but in the Anglo-Saxon they already basically defeated Hitler .. so such a "remote" history as the Tatar-Mongols is a very controversial subject of discussion - what exactly here is the truth .. perhaps it is neither official nor like in the article ...

[Cartalon]

If you don’t know a damn thing about history, you don’t read lectures, you don’t listen to books, then yes.
But this can be said about anything, perhaps Zeus shindarakhnul with lightning, all this is debatable.

[2 Level Advisor]

What if the book is wrong? didn't think about it? among the Anglo-Saxons, as I already said, they write and say that they defeated Hitler .. but about - debatable - I said ..

[kalibr]

Quote: Level 2 Advisor

the Anglo-Saxons, as I said, write and say that they defeated Hitler ..

And I read their books, and nowhere did I come across this. It would be interesting to know the title and author of these books. and page no. to check it out. But I'm afraid I can't wait...

[2 Level Advisor]

Vyacheslav, I didn’t say that this is a book .. yet - some journalists write .. further - and it can easily get into books .. but I’m not specifically talking about this situation, but about the fact that books reflect the opinion of a particular author and this does not mean that it was so .. I'm talking about it ..

[Stirbjorn]

Vasily Yan wrote a whole cycle of novels "Genghis Khan", "Batu" and "To the Last Sea", received the Stalin Prize, and now someone claims that none of this happened ?! In those days, the authors seriously worked with documents! My poor brain

[Glory1974]

Vasily Yan wrote a whole cycle of novels "Genghis Khan", "Batu" and "To the Last Sea", received the Stalin Prize, and now someone claims that none of this happened ?!

Tolkien wrote the "Fellowship of the Ring" trilogy, the film was made, the "Oscar" was received, in schools they study in the USA. And what, someone now believes that this did not happen? I am outraged!

[Stirbjorn]

Quote: glory1974

Tolkien wrote the "Fellowship of the Ring" trilogy, the film was made, the "Oscar" was received, in schools they study in the USA. And what, someone now believes that this did not happen? I am outraged!

"- You, my dear, are a degenerate. Do you know what a "degenerate" is?
- At the corner of Boishte and Katerzhinskaya Street, I dare to report, one degenerate also lived. His father was a Polish count, and his mother was a midwife. During the day he swept the streets, and in the tavern he did not allow himself to be called anything other than the count.

[Ulan.1812]

Quote: Stirbjorn

Vasily Yan wrote a whole cycle of novels "Genghis Khan", "Batu" and "To the Last Sea", received the Stalin Prize, and now someone claims that none of this happened ?! In those days, the authors seriously worked with documents! My poor brain

Kalashnikov - "Cruel Age".

[Vladimir80]

I'm wondering if I, an ordinary person, write such "bullshit" and post it in the "history" section on a respected website of the v.o. - will the moderators publish me?

[Kote Pan Kokhanka]

Quote: Vladimir80

I'm wondering if I, an ordinary person, write such "bullshit" and post it in the "history" section on a respected website of the v.o. - will the moderators publish me?

No, but you will be able to read your work with minimal changes in a month or two. Whose last name will be in the place of the "author" is not difficult to guess.

[Andrey_Druzhinin]

There were no Mongols, there were Orcs of Sauron. Not for nothing they call us orcs now))

[sleeve]

Well, that is, if there was no factor of the Mongol-Tatar yoke, then the lag observed until the 18th century can naturally be interpreted only by internal reasons and not by the fact that a blow was dealt to the economy and culture? I was very surprised to see the "archaeological data" about the "War of the Europeans". Let us omit the factor of internecine clashes of the 12th-13th centuries and beyond. But this is where it gets interesting. I've only read this here so far.

[Evil eye]

"the lag observed until the 18th century can naturally be interpreted only by internal reasons"

Well, naturally. For example, a bad climate and a raw-material orientation of the economy built by the Romanovs. Well, this is how many uncomfortable questions, it’s easier to blame everything on the Asians - at the same time, the image of the enemy is good when you need trips to the eastern and southern regions. Soldier motivate.

[Sulfero]

I will not argue about the Tatar-Mongol yoke, I read this point of view a long time ago in "Russia that did not exist" Bushkov and I do not agree with it. As, by the way, Dahl's explanatory dictionary. But okay, suppose there was no yoke. For the shepherds could not conquer the world. However, the "Russo-Scythian pagan hordes" that conquered China are still stubbornly called Mongolian in the same China. And the conquering dynasties too. That is, shepherds could still conquer China? No, maybe they, too, fell under the influence of vicious Masonic disinformation, but...
And as for the civilization that suddenly appeared along the banks of the Volga ... the author somehow misses that before the Golden Horde was formed, these comrades, whoever they were, had already conquered quite civilized China and the Arab states. What prevented them from taking advantage of the experience and skills of the conquered? Oh, I lost sight of the option when no one conquered China and Asia Minor (I forgot what caliphate was there in those days) and their annals were also corrected ...
And decide already. In what masses of the Mongoloid population did the Rus of the Golden Horde dissolve, if it has already been said that "not a Mongolian skull"? Only the Skyphorus were supposed to live there.

[Seal]

Quote: abrakadabre

What?! Again!!! How can?

Well, apparently so much until it comes.

[Force multiplier]

The topic of the yoke, as it is reflected in the article, when certain indisputable facts and conclusions are drowning in a sea of ​​nonsense, at one time appeared in order to chatter and marginalize the problem. The fact that the yoke did not exist in the form in which it is presented in a conditional "textbook" is self-evident. But what was behind the change of the overlord by the Russian princes after the fall of Constantinople, the proxy of which forces was the Golden Horde, are interesting questions. Venice and Genoa are never mentioned in the article. But their role is key. Coincidence?

[kalibr]

Quote: Force Multiplier

But their role is key.

A source?

[Force multiplier]

This is the opinion of official historians. And not just historians, but real British scientists (c). As an Anglophile, you should like:
https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/venetsianskie-istochniki-po-istorii-zolotoy-ordy-novye-perspektivy-izucheniya
There are a lot of interesting things there: about Venetian sources on the topic that have not yet been published and put into circulation; about the subjects of the Khan, sailing under the Genoese flag (that is, the cross of St. George). Khan's subjects under the White Ensign. Okay!
PS: Your activity in the comments suggests some thoughts about who is actually hiding behind the pseudonym Samsonov

[silverwolf88]

The article is very weak ... otherwise there was no yoke ... I recommend reading Nikolai Gumilyov and understanding will descend upon you)))

[Maks1995]

If there is nothing to write about, you can write about the terrible Anglo-Casians or the Mongol invasion.
IMHO ..

On the one hand, yes, the word Igo was invented later. And on the other hand, a lot of cities were wiped off the face of the earth and stone construction froze for 2 centuries ...
About feudalism - yes. But about the dirty little villages "Paris" is another cheers-myth. repeatedly debunked by historians ...

In general, the best videos of Klim Zhukov and the like were uploaded in their entirety for education ...

[Evil eye]

Suppose the cities were destroyed. Is it precisely by military force, and not by some other factors? Is it definitely overseas aliens, and not local ones? But let's say they're aliens. Where is the evidence that it was the Mongols, and not someone else?

[Seal]

Quote: Stirbjorn

Vasily Yan wrote a whole cycle of novels "Genghis Khan", "Batu" and "To the Last Sea", received the Stalin Prize, and now someone claims that none of this happened ?! In those days, the authors seriously worked with documents! My poor brain

What was not? Was there no Stalin Prize? Was. But why was she given to the former corrective duty of the information department of the office, that is, the head of the propaganda bureau at Kolchak, the White Guard journalist Yanchevetsky? Having Polish roots, as he is the son of the "antique scholar" Grigory Andreevich Yanchevetsky, who graduated from the Volyn Theological Seminary. This seminary accepted children of the Orthodox faith from 7 to 15 years old, who had previously been trained in the Basilian and Jesuit schools of Ovruch, Mezhirich, Ostrog.
About the award. Here is after all what moment. Let's look at the dates.
In February 1940, V. Yan, not yet a member of the Union of Writers of the USSR, still handed over the manuscript "Batu" to Goslitizdat.
And two months later, in April 1941, V. Yan handed over the abridged and adapted for children text of “Invasion of Batu” to Detgiz.
On April 22, 1941, the writer was invited to the Moscow City Committee of the All-Union Communist Party of Bolsheviks for a conversation with A.S. Shcherbakov about the future story, conditionally called "Alexander Nevsky and the Golden Horde."
In May 1941, it was decided to print "Batu" as a "lightning book".
The first copies were received on June 15, 1941.
That is, V. Yan got into the stream, as they say. He wrote the work the state needed at the right time.
It was important for the leadership of the USSR that the people associate the forthcoming invasion of the Nazis with the invasion of the "barbarian Mongols". But whether the Mongols really existed or they didn’t exist is a tenth matter for big state policy.
By the way, Yanchevetsky was admitted to the Union of Soviet Writers on July 21.
About serious work with documents.
Here we look. On August 21, 1934, an entry appeared in V. Yan's diary: the publishing house "Young Guard" unexpectedly became interested in the topic of Genghis Khan and an agreement was signed for the story in 12 author's sheets, with the deadline for submitting the manuscript in February 1935.
Here's how you can "seriously work with documents" in less than 1 year?
It is possible only in one case.
If there are no documents at all.
By the way, only half of the text was ready by the deadline. After the end of the text - June 12, 1935 - it turned out that the editor in charge at the publishing house had changed, who rejected the manuscript, citing "many inaccuracies." Where the new managing editor got the "inaccuracies" from - only the Great Spirit Manitou knows.
Since in fact there were no "accuracies" and neither V. Yan nor the responsible editor have.

[Stirbjorn]

I just don't get it, have you read the trilogy or are you just judging?

[Seal]

Quote: Cartalon

If you don’t know a damn thing about history, you don’t lecture, you don’t listen to books, then yes

And if you listen to lectures, read books, does this mean that you know something about history? In history, the main thing is the sources. And the sources should be not only narrative, moreover, written no one knows when and no one knows by whom, but documentary historical sources.
The positivist paradigm in source studies is most consistently developed in the work of Sh.-V. Langlois and C. Segnobos "Introduction to the Study of History" (1898), which is based on a course of lectures they delivered at the Sorbonne in the 1896/97 academic year. Sh.-V. Langlois (1863-1929) - medievalist historian, professor at the Sorbonne, holder of a diploma from the National School of Charters, director of the National Archives (1912-1929), member (since 1917), then president (since 1925) of the Academy of inscriptions and belles-lettres . C. Segnobos (1854–1942) – professor at the Sorbonne (1890), began his research activity with the study of ancient and medieval history, later specialized in modern history, author of the work “Political History of Modern Europe” (1897).
"Introduction to the Study of History" begins with a formula that over time has become an aphorism:
History is written according to documents. Documents are traces left by the thoughts and actions of people who once lived <…>. Every thought and every deed that has not left a direct or indirect trace, or whose visible trace has disappeared, is forever lost to history, as if it had never existed <…>. Nothing can replace documents: there are none, there is no history

[deddem]

Throw in the search engine "medieval settlements in Mongolia, Buryatia and the Far East."
Well, or continue to masturbate crazy Morozov (Fomenko does not exist, it is obvious to everyone that he was invented by greedy book publishers, since a person who graduated from high school cannot be a mathematician, an artist, and a historian, any crypto-nobleman who is malnourished by a non-existent French bun, this is obvious) .

[Evil eye]

There were settlements in the Far East - and then what? What does this prove? How did they seep from there through the whole of Eurasia to the West? You have an elderberry in your garden, and an uncle in Kyiv.

[deddem]

Quote: Evil Eye

There were settlements in the Far East - and then what? What does this prove? How did they seep from there through the whole of Eurasia to the West? You have an elderberry in your garden, and an uncle in Kyiv.

The fact that the steppes were nomads is very conditional.

And through Eurasia leaked:
- proto-Greeks and other peoples of the sea on chariots
- Cimmerians
- Scythians
- Huns
- Utigurs, Kutigurs and other Avars
- Bulgars
- Ugrians
- Turks
- Khorezmians
- Mongol-Tatars
- Bashkirs
- Kalmyks

[Evil eye]

Well fuck now. And the Slavs, according to this logic, "were very conditionally tillers", but we also had settlements.
And of course, 3,5 settlements can provide troops with steel to conquer most of Eurasia. It’s a pity that Colin Powell wasn’t fond of history, otherwise he would have told such a story about the preparations for the capture of the entire solar system by Iraq ...

"Infiltration" into Eurasia and capturing half of Eurasia are slightly different things. The Germans also leaked in many places, from the USA to Russia, but they never created an empire. Although they tried.

[Ulan.1812]

Quote: Evil Eye

There were settlements in the Far East - and then what? What does this prove? How did they seep from there through the whole of Eurasia to the West? You have an elderberry in your garden, and an uncle in Kyiv.

And how did the Huns leak out? And how did Macedonian seep from Egypt to India?

[Evil eye]

Huns most likely nothing. They could not occupy the area that they draw on the maps. In extreme cases, the "Huns" could occupy this territory as a people, and not as representatives of a single state.
And with Macedonian, much is unclear and almost certainly most of the information about him is the same legendary exaggeration as about Genghis Khan. But if there was a trip to India, then he:
1) Relyed on the rear of those developed ancient states that Macedonian allegedly conquered earlier
2) Occurred along trade routes
3) Most of the trade routes were waterways, no one in their right mind walked from Egypt to India on foot, the sea is nearby.

[Seal]

Quote: Konnick

Read about the Zolotarevsk settlement near Penza. There is everything and mass death, and artifacts

Entities should not be multiplied beyond what is necessary. Why invent the involvement of some Mongols in the disasters of Penza, if:
In 1680 the Kalmyks raided Penza.
In 1708, the Kalmyks, with the Bashkirs subject to them, reappeared near Penza, burned more than 100 villages in the Penza and Tambov provinces.
And before that (before the Kalmyk raid in 1680), Nogais and Bashkirs attacked Penza more than once and burned Penza, including the fortress.
The Kalmyks did the same in 1680. They bombarded the fortress with incendiary arrows, as a result of which it burned to the ground,
By the way, it was to protect against the Kalmyks, and not from the notorious Mongols in 1683-1684, the construction of the Syzran notch line (Syzran-Penza) was carried out.

[Serg65]

Quote: Seal

In 1680 the Kalmyks

Quote: Seal

Bashkirs

Quote: Seal

Nogais

And where did these comrades in Penza come from?

[Seal]

Quote: Serg65

And where did these comrades in Penza come from?

If you are not embarrassed by the appearance of "Mongols" near Penza, then why are you embarrassed by the appearance of Kalmyks, Bashkirs or Nogais near Penza? Who, for a moment, lived much closer to Penza than the Mongols.

[Serg65]

Quote: Seal

Which, for a moment, lived much closer to Penza than the Mongols.

The Mughals are a non-existent nation, the Kalmyks, they are the Dzungars, they are the Oirats ... that is, the Western Mongols, that is. the same Woodumans, the Nogais, a collective hodgepodge that became a people after the collapse of the Golden Horde, the Bashkirs are the same from the world by a thread, here you have the eastern Kipchaks from the Irtysh, and the descendants of the Sogdians from the Ferghana-Pamirs, and the remnants of the Volga Bulgars! So I ask ... where were these peoples in 1230? And not in 1680!

[Bumblebee]

Kalmyks just wandered to the Volga from Dzungaria. Then they went down to the Astrakhan lands and crossed to the right bank. Then considered under the rule of the Turks and their vassals.

[Serg65]

Quote: Bumblebee

Kalmyks just wandered to the Volga from Dzungaria

I would say they did not roam, but fled!

[Bumblebee]

Tell me your version of the escape))) From whom and why?)))

[Serg65]

Quote: Bumblebee

From whom and why?

From the Chinese, my friend, from the Chinese .... you see, the Chinese are tired of enduring the mess that the Dzungar-Kalmako-Orayts made on their borders!

[Bumblebee]

You are confusing centuries)) I wrote about the period from 1635 to 1680, where they described the raid on Penza. You, apparently, mention the years 1755-1760, when the Dzungar Khanate fell and, indeed, part of the Oirats fled to the Volga, to their fellow tribesmen.

[kalibr]

Quote: Seal

to protect against Kalmyks

In 1237 there were no Kalmyks. And the arrowheads are different for both the Mongols and the ... Nogais! This is if you are talking about the Great Nogai pogrom. And the fortress was not burned to the ground even once. Landing - yes.

[Seal]

And let's talk about arrows. Imagine for a moment that the notorious "Mongolian" invasion of the "Mongols" with arrows with a "Mongolian type of tip" was not really. Official historical sites claim that the arrows of the "Mongols" were "heavy" From 200 to 280 grams. Let's take the lower limit of 200 gr. So, one arrow is 0,2 kg. How many arrows does the "Mongol" have. Well, let's assume that he himself carried 20 arrows and another 40 arrows were carried by his spare horse. This means that one "Mongol" had arrows for 12 kilograms. A hundred thousandth army, respectively, has 1 kg or 200 tons.
Arrows are a consumable item. Of course, a certain number of arrows were collected and recycled. But hardly any arrow was used more than twice. So, on average, one and a half times. If you believe Tik historians like you, then shooting arrows was the main way the "Mongols" fought.
So, the "Mongols" came to Rus' and after a while were left with a half supply of arrows. How to recover losses? Okay, you can say that the "Mongols" forced our local blacksmiths to forge arrows according to the "Mongolian pattern". But the question is - how many tips will one blacksmith forge per day? I suppose if it took him at least 1 minutes to make 10 tip, then with a 15 hour working day he will forge 90 tips. And this is with continuous operation. Ninety tips is 30 tips per "Mongol". So, three "Mongols" will be with arrows. In 10 days, one blacksmith will provide 30 Mongols with tips. It is unlikely that the "Mongols" managed to collect more than 10 blacksmiths. This means that in 10 days 10 blacksmiths will be provided with tips ... already 300 "Mongols". And the rest of what will fight? Moreover, blacksmiths do not keep stocks of metal. The blacksmith could well say, like, "Father Mongols, I will forge tips for you, but just give me metal. After all, customers come to me with their metal, from which I forge everything they need." The question is - where will the "Mongols" get the required amount of metal from? Or will you say that the Mongols brought metal with them from Mongolia? About five thousand tons of commercials, right ???
Okay, you can tell that on the way from Mongolia, the "Mongols" replenished their stocks of arrows along the way. But then it turns out that they replenished their stock of arrows with arrows not with Mongolian ones, but with local arrowheads. So, I think so, by the time their native arrowheads arrived in Rus', there were one or two and there were not many.
Another moment. You often talk about tips. And never talk about the poles. But it is much easier to determine from the shaft where the tree from which the shaft was made grew. It's kind of weird for you. On the one hand, you have papyri allegedly preserved from 2000 BC, and on the other hand, there are no shafts from the 13th century AD? How so? Okay, you will say that Egypt has a dry climate. But we have swamps. And even peat bogs. In which organic matter is preserved better than in the sands of Egypt.
And you seem to have fought battles, including near swamps (the battle on the Sit River). Nevertheless, you don’t have a single arrow shaft, as well as a “Mongolian spear”. How so?

[Bumblebee]

Yes, there were no Kalmyks. They were then called Oirats.

[Ulan.1812]

Quote: Bumblebee

Yes, there were no Kalmyks. They were then called Oirats.

And they were part of the Horde.

[Ulan.1812]

Quote: kalibr

Quote: Seal

to protect against Kalmyks

In 1237 there were no Kalmyks. And the arrowheads are different for both the Mongols and the ... Nogais! This is if you are talking about the Great Nogai pogrom. And the fortress was not burned to the ground even once. Landing - yes.

The Horde really had different arrows. Simple-cuts, light for further shooting, heavy for shooting at warriors in armor. They are found different.

[Seal]

Quote: Konnick

Moreover, he went out in a roundabout way, since their horses were Mongolian and accustomed to pasture. Mongolian horses did not eat grain.
Read a book

Read better data from glaciologists on snow cover in Mongolia. And Przhevalsky's reports, in which he talks about the endemicity of the Mongolian camel breed. The same can be said about horses of the traditional Mongolian breed.

[ee2100]

These comments contain only emotions and no specifics.
People who hold the view that the Mongol-Tatar yoke was given are not arguments, but the opinions of historians.
Arguments of your type, glaciologists, the endemicity of the Mongolian horse breed are not perceived by them.

The map shows the "Mongolian" gene and its distribution in the modern world.
In Europe, it is not, but it is known to be dominant.
This is not the place where it makes sense to "break spears" on this issue.

[kalibr]

Quote: ee2100

In Europe, it is not, but it is known to be dominant.

Because there is a "bottleneck".

[Evil eye]

The bottleneck was when the future Europeans from Africa seeped into Europe. And in the Middle Ages, what kind of bottleneck?
There was only one bottle neck - from which they drank wine

[ee2100]

VOSH, take Wikipedia and read about the "bottleneck" and then apply it to the Mongols.

[Ulan.1812]

Quote: Seal

Quote: Konnick

Moreover, he went out in a roundabout way, since their horses were Mongolian and accustomed to pasture. Mongolian horses did not eat grain.
Read a book

Read better data from glaciologists on snow cover in Mongolia. And Przhevalsky's reports, in which he talks about the endemicity of the Mongolian camel breed. The same can be said about horses of the traditional Mongolian breed.

Really? In fact, these are Siberian breeds of horses. And among them are very hardy and tall too. I don’t understand why everyone rested on modern Mongolia. There were different breeds of horses in the Horde.

[Derbes19]

Not a single horse will go anywhere to graze in winter. Growth and stamina have nothing to do with it.

[Scientist]

Good advice to the moderators - start some section like "ward N6" and post it there, if you really want to. Why THIS is history.

[Bagatur]

Samsonov.... Ah, he scored Hyperborea)))

[staer-62]

Have you heard of the yuan? This is the monetary unit of China, it is also the dynasty of China after the conquest by the Mongols. What, did the Scythian Rus conquer China too? Rave. Russia is an empire in which the Russian people, which united all nations, thanks to its identical approach to all, absorbed the genetics and culture and character of these peoples, but did not dissolve them in a common cauldron. So with the Genghisides, we Buryat Mongols became part of Russia and do not regret it. We, with our history and character and genes, have brought on the mental level all the achievements of the Great Golden Horde, its spirit. Let me remind you that Genghis Khan was born in Russia, which means he is the ancestor of the Russians.

[Seal]

Quote: Parabelum

What is this nonsense? I had blood coming out of my eyes. That is, the Arabic chronicles, the Chinese about the invasion of Genghis Khan, are they fakes?

Have you seen at least one Arabic, Chinese or other chronicle written at that very time?

[svp67]

That's how much you can reprint this "nonsense"? Every year she is given a "tribute" on our website

[Seal]

Quote: staer-62

Let me remind you that Genghis Khan was born in Russia, which means he is the ancestor of the Russians.

The Turks, let's take, on the example of the Kazakhs, the directions for sunrise and sunset are taken as the basis for orientation in space. In the Kazakh language, sunrise is shygys, sunset is batys. From here East-Shygys, and West-Batys. The main holy direction of the Turks (Kazakhs) was and remains the "East". Everything that is located to the west of the steppe for the Kazakhs had the prefix "batu", and to the east - "shygys". From here, the ruler of any Turks (Kazakhs) western from the habitat was called Batu-Khan (Batu). And the one who ruled to the east - well, for example, China - was Shygys Khan (in our pronunciation, Genghis Khan). That is, all these Batu, Batu, Batys and Shagys (Genghis) could be (and were, because the West is full of all sorts of "Karls") the names of both specific people and common names for all the khans-rulers of these directions and territories. Here another puncture of professional historians is obvious. Those travelers who then brought all the information received to European courts and court historians when they walked (traveled) through the Turkic lands, then to the question "Who caused this or that destruction" from their Turkic-speaking counterparts could receive the following answers:
1) This was done by Shagys Khan (Genghis Khan). In the understanding of the storyteller is some kind of famous Khan, whose lands were located east of those who were interviewed.
2) This was done by Batys-Khan (Batu, Batu). This is any Khan of lands located west of those who were interviewed. Batys - Western.
Maybe even named names. But since the last (actually names) components were inconstant, only the first invariably constant part was remembered - CHINGIS KHAN. Since the main holy direction among the Turks (Kazakhs) was and remains the "East", it goes without saying that now in Asia every second is a descendant of one or another Genghis Khan (Genghisid). European historians, on the other hand, having collected such a mass of claims against "Genghis Khan" and "Batu Khan" and stupidly not realizing that they (well, those travelers who later brought all this information to European courts and court historians) the locals simply told about their local showdowns with some eastern or western neighbors for 300-400 years, and considering that "Genghis Khan" and "Batu Khan" are the names of specific people, they decided that only great people could commit such large-scale deeds. And honestly mistaken, historians began to sculpt a myth about the "Great Genghis Khan" and his grandson "Batu Khan" (whom the historians sent to the very west). Moreover, they sent it so firmly that, according to historians, “Batu” himself never went even to intra-family gatherings in Mongolia, but sent the newly conquered Russian princes. And the Mongolian relatives of "Batu" allegedly gladly accepted the envoys instead of the original in their narrow family circle.
Here is one of the Genghis Khans

[Seal]

Quote: kalibr

And the arrowheads are different for both the Mongols and the ... Nogais!

You have already spoken several times about the difference in arrowheads, arguing that this one is allegedly typically Mongolian, but this one is allegedly not Mongolian at all. But you have never proved in the natural sciences that this or that arrow is of Mongolian or Black Sea origin. And you can rant as much as you like. But so far no one has carried out an isotope analysis of the tip metals, which would allow at least to know the deposit from which the ore was extracted. Well, yes, why should official history itself cut the branch on which it sits.

[Dali]

Quote: Seal

But the isotope analysis of the tip metals, which would allow to know at least the deposit from which the ore was extracted, has not yet been carried out by anyone. Well, yes, why should official history itself cut the branch on which it sits.

Some historians, such as caliber, neither physics, nor chemistry, nor mathematics, nor biology with genetics, nor astrophysics are simply unknown. Therefore, evidence based on scientific knowledge is anti-scientific for them.

[Diviz]

There were more problems with the Khazar Khaganate and Kievan Rus than with the Mongols. With the Mongols, it was possible to pay off the tribute.
Kievan Rus disappeared when Mamai was defeated and Tamerlane walked through the Golden Horde.

[Seal]

Quote: Lech from Android.

Opponents often cite some written sources of ancient writers as arguments...

It's all narrative. It is not known when and it is not known by whom it was actually written. That's a lot and often talk about Rashid ad-Din. But could a devout Muslim, and according to some sources in the past a Jew, put an expression mentioning the Year of the Pig in the title of his book??

Genghis Khan from the end of the year of Tolai, which is the year of the hare, beginning with [month] Rabi I 591 AH, to the beginning of the year of Kaka, which is the year of the pig, beginning with Jumada II 99 AH. , which is between them a period of nine years, and in this last year Genghis Khan was forty-one years old.

But even in it, in the "work" of Rashid-ad-Din, there are places that break the assertions about the unsurpassed Mongol archers who rode around the inactive knights and hit a penny at a gallop from a distance of kilometers. Because he claims that the "Mongols" dismounted before shooting arrows.

[Ulan.1812]

Quote: Seal

Quote: Lech from Android.

Opponents often cite some written sources of ancient writers as arguments...

It's all narrative. It is not known when and it is not known by whom it was actually written. That's a lot and often talk about Rashid ad-Din. But could a devout Muslim, and according to some sources in the past a Jew, put an expression mentioning the Year of the Pig in the title of his book??

Genghis Khan from the end of the year of Tolai, which is the year of the hare, beginning with [month] Rabi I 591 AH, to the beginning of the year of Kaka, which is the year of the pig, beginning with Jumada II 99 AH. , which is between them a period of nine years, and in this last year Genghis Khan was forty-one years old.

But even in it, in the "work" of Rashid-ad-Din, there are places that break the assertions about the unsurpassed Mongol archers who rode around the inactive knights and hit a penny at a gallop from a distance of kilometers. Because he claims that the "Mongols" dismounted before shooting arrows.

The main striking force of the Horde army was heavily armed, armored cavalry. Which dealt a decisive blow if the archers could not put the enemy to flight.
The number of such warriors reached 30% of the population. You can read from Mikhail Gorelik.

[Olegsv]

Why publish this, there are hangouts for such alternative historians and other wizards

[Ermak_Timofeich]

What can I say? Only - a protracted creative search for the “land of fools”.

[Alexey Lantukh]

This is the second time they have peddled this crazy article. It’s not appropriate for Military Review to exhibit such nonsense.

[Seal]

Quote: deddem

Throw in the search engine "medieval settlements in Mongolia, Buryatia and the Far East."

But whose fortifications are these? The Mongols didn't remember.

[Seal]

Quote: kalibr

In 1237 there were no Kalmyks. And the arrowheads are different for both the Mongols and the... Nogais!

But in the 16th and 17th centuries they were quite comfortable. Just fix the date, which your predecessors pulled out of thin air anyway, and everything will fall into place.
By the way, in 1237 there were no Mongols. I’ve already posted it ten times, but it’s okay, I’ll post it for the 11th time.

As you can see, our ancestors back in 1799 clearly distinguished between the Tatars and the Mongols. And they believed that the Mongols joined the Tatars only at the end of the 14th century, when they were kicked out of China.

[Seal]

The book of 1799 received three minuses. Who doesn’t like it so much that our ancestors had their own opinion, different from the now official version of history??

[Lutens]

The Mongols, this is a racket of the Middle Ages. They came, bet on money, and left. There was no assimilation of the local population, they never lived here. When the locals refused to pay, they returned, showed what happens to those who do not pay, and left again. Compare the Mongol empire with the same Roman is not possible, completely different management styles. Rome was engaged in assimilation, so even after collapsing it left its mark on the conquered lands.

[Evil eye]

Firstly, what kind of “grandmothers” do you imagine the level of commodity-money relations in the 13th century?
Secondly, it turns out that the locals don’t know how to fight at all.
And the “racketeers” are still wandering around the steppe back and forth, who cooks for them to eat?

[Seal]

Quote: ee2100

People who hold the view that the Mongol-Tatar yoke was given are not arguments, but the opinions of historians.

The great Anatole France spoke very well about this phenomenon.
In the novel “Penguin Island”, Anatole France frankly scoffs at the writers of historical treatises:

“Writing a story is extremely difficult. You probably never know how it all happened, and the more documents, the more difficulties for the historian. When only one single evidence of a fact has been preserved, it is established by us without any hesitation. Indecision arises only in the presence of two or more evidence of an event, since they always contradict one another and cannot be reconciled.
Of course, the preference of one or another historical evidence to everyone else often rests on a solid scientific basis. But it is never so strong as to resist our passions, our prejudices and our interests or to prevent the manifestations of frivolity inherent in all serious people. That's why we constantly portray events either biased or too loose ...
- Your Majesty! I told him. “I ask you to help me with your enlightened advice.” I put all my strength into making a story, but nothing works out for me!
He shrugged his shoulders.
- Why, darling, so trouble yourself with the compilation of historical work, when you can simply write off the most famous of the available, as is customary? After all, if you express a new point of view, some original idea, if you portray people and circumstances in some unexpected light, you will surprise the reader. And the reader does not like to be surprised. In history, he seeks only nonsense, long since known to him. Trying to teach the reader something, you will only offend and make him angry. Do not try to educate him, he will scream that you insult his beliefs.
Historians rewrite each other. In this way, they save themselves from unnecessary labor and from accusations of arrogance. Follow their example, do not be original. An original-minded historian causes widespread distrust, contempt, and disgust.
“Really, sir, do you think,” my interlocutor added, “that I would have achieved such recognition and honor if I had introduced any innovations into my historical books!” Well, what is innovation? Insolence is all! ”

As one smart person put it, this is painfully reminiscent of the work methods of other professional historians. Their critical opuses directed against dissenters contain nothing but contempt, disgust and “righteous” anger. And in fact: pathetic amateurs with a pig's snout climb into the Kalash row, put unclean fingers into the open wound, sarcastically, giggle and prevent busy people from calmly texting each other.

[Evil eye]

The respected author actually sets out Anatoly Fomenko’s version, only even more romanticized. Not only with Russia-Horde, but also with Hyperborea-Horde from the Carpathians to Japan.

It is clear that this version is still more realistic than the version about the steppe people who suddenly took over half the world. Still, the territory of Rus' is better suited for a base of expansion.

However, if we think logically, then this version is not very plausible. The main reasons: climate and regional connectivity. The climate did not allow for the accumulation of a sufficient amount of surplus product to capture or even simply peacefully settle such vast territories. And underdeveloped communication routes would not allow the creation of a more or less coherent civilization. Although the Slavs settled large areas, they were not a single people, but many related peoples, often at war with each other (despite their kinship).
Of course, on our territory there were ancient trade river routes that provided some added value, but Russian civilization also developed along these very routes. And the surrounding spaces were conquered gradually in accordance with scientific and technological progress.
And there are not so many material monuments that would confirm the existence of Rus'-Horde-Hyperborea.

But there are a lot of material monuments to the existence of a single empire on the shores of the Mediterranean Sea and adjacent seas. Actually, historians do not deny the existence of the “Roman” Empire, only they attribute it to the deep past and exaggerate the level of its development and centralization. And this was the first supra-feudal Empire and the first civilization. Moreover, both the climate and sea routes of communication made it possible to create such an Empire. Especially if you understand that it was not a centralized state, but rather a confederation, like the current EU.

So the “Tatars” were most likely “Roman” colonizers, i.e. Crusaders. Batu is really Batu, only not Cossack, but Rimsky. The Golden Horde is the Golden Order.
This is precisely the version defended by the founder of the New Chronology, Nikolai Morozov. Unfortunately, Anatoly Fomenko and his followers, as often happens with neophyte enthusiasts, turned the entire reconstruction in the wrong direction.
It is possible, however, that the “Tatars” were not crusaders, but also not Mongols, and not Russian-Horde. And, oddly enough, they were Tatars, i.e. immigrants from the southern regions adjacent to the Black and Caspian Seas, economically connected with the Islamic regions and Central Asia. And this is also much more plausible than the Mongols.
However, both of these options could coexist. After all, some Turkic peoples also live in the west, and European and Asian conquerors often collaborated even in modern history.
And the identification of Rus' with Tartary could have happened later, closer to Ivan the Terrible, when the political situation changed and the ties between the Slavic and Turkic states became significantly stronger.

[Seal]

Quote from Evil Eye

And, oddly enough, they were Tatars, i.e. immigrants from the southern regions adjacent to the Black and Caspian Seas, economically connected with the Islamic regions and Central Asia. And this is also much more plausible than the Mongols.

Albert Maksimov wrote about this. The link here may be removed. Therefore, just type in the search: "Albert Maksimov - The Rus' that Was."
Briefly his version. The son of Andrei Bogolyubsky, Yuri, who, according to the official version of history, was half (or more) Polovtsian and the husband of the Georgian queen Tamar, did not disappear without a trace, but, relying on the money of Nicaea, managed to recruit mercenaries and was able to subjugate Georgia. Then all of Transcaucasia, then the North Caucasus and Kuban, then the Polovtsians. It was his troops who were on Kalka. Having won a victory, but essentially a Pyrrhic one, Yuri went south. And he returned only 13 years later. Already with a grown-up son. And he actually appeared in the region where his father, Prince Andrei, once ruled. That is, in northeastern Rus'. With a very small army, knowing the roads and speaking Russian, he calmly traveled around Rus' and, approaching one or another city, announced that he was the rightful ruler, the son of the first Russian autocrat Andrei Bogolyubsky. If the city recognized his power, then the city remained intact. Well, if not, then there were options. Even the official version of history cannot hide the fact that in a number of cities, in Vladimir for example, the people did not really want to resist. But the princes are the opposite. These were the children of Vsevolod, who, even according to the official version of history, could have ordered the murder of Andrei Bogolyubsky.

[Keer]

Batu is really Batu, only not Cossack, but Rimsky.

Sartak, then, comes Spartak, aka Emelyan Pugachev, aka Nikolai Starostin, then Alexander Nevsky, aka Crassus, aka Suvorov and Lavrentiy Beria. It is understandable then that there is dislike between Spartak and Dynamo Moscow.

[Evil eye]

You've either read a lot of conspiracy theorists, or you're trying to be ironic.

[cfreesoul]

Technically, has anyone tried to feed 300,000 horses in Russian forests? in winter?

[Evil eye]

Absolutely right. Americans did not fly to the moon. Although they may have flown, they have not obtained evidence.

[Ulan.1812]

Shaw? Again? Again all the same nonsense that they couldn’t go that far, that there wouldn’t be enough food, about genes, Tartarians and other bullshit.
Identification of present-day Mongolia and the Khalkha Mongols with the empire of Genghis and other bullshit.
The Arabs could, the Macedonian could... reached as far as India, the Huns could, Tamerlane could, the Ottomans could, and only the Horde could not.
How can people not get bored?
Dear Chinggis Empire is not only the Mongols themselves.
Kereits, Tanguts, Jurchens, and others. Many peoples of Siberia and Central Asia consider themselves descendants of the Horde empire.
The conquests went on for more than one year, and some imagine that the Horde reached Rus' in a couple of weeks.
By denying the existence of the Horde and its conquests, alternativeists deny the feat of our people, who defeated it in numerous battles.

[Roman Efremov]

Quote: Nikolaevich I

And the duel in 1380 between Peresvet and Chelubey?

Is Chelubey a Mongol? Does the duel with him prove the presence of the Mongols in Rus'?

[ee2100]

The duel before the fight is not in the tradition of our ancestors. Many believe that this is borrowed from other literary sources.
I have never seen anything like this in the chronicles.

[Mikhail Ya2]

The Vatican also came up with a myth about the capture of Baghdad, Khorezm, Eastern Iran, and Asia Minor by the Mongols? Or is this such a cunning conspiracy against the Rus that it would be true?

[evgen1221]

Add to the article the fact that the meaning of many words has been greatly distorted to the point of opposite meanings, plus phonetics and pronunciation have changed. Mogul, or whatever it sounded like, for Russians and residents of that time could easily mean something completely different than what armchair historians imagine. Digging around to look for, why?, Mongol-Mongol, it’s just as simpler, so let’s write it down and go ahead to claim the laurels of the discoverer. Well, the fact is that for Europe we were barbarians and have remained since those times. Once you notice, our ancestors went to rob them en masse, they remembered it for the rest of their lives as the invasion of the Tatar and Mughal hordes into Europe. Afterwards, in response to their raids, we visited their capitals as necessary.

[Keer]

It turns out that the Iron Lame, Tamerlane Timur, Genghisid, was Russian. And his name was Hyper Boris (Nikolaich). Understand.

[Ulan.1812]

I haven't read such nonsense for a long time. Everything is in a heap. The vinaigrette.

[Not_comrade_of_comrades_of_hu_yaobang]

The Horde is the Rod, the Rada,. The Supreme Council of Freaks is glad of the Freaks. Tumen - darkness, ten thousand warriors, ignorance, ignoramus. Khan - kokhan, kokhan, tub, beloved, respected, tub of vodka. Private, officer, general, marshal, Napoleon, Admiral Nelson.
There is a Russian proverb: “Learning is light, but ignorance is darkness.” This means that for those who learn a lot of new things and strive for this, a bright road to the future opens up ahead. And those who are lazy and do not study at school will remain all their lives in the darkness of stupidity and ignorance.

And now a little turnip:

I was a truant at school.
I secured my head.
I have nothing to think about
I hit you on the head with a brick,
But my head is strong
I'm still looking for a brick for now.

Happy New Old Year to everyone.

[Konstantin Shevchenko]

It's all fantasy. Iron mining and other mines appeared at the end of the reign of Peter 1. As foreigners of that time write, Rus' bought iron, tin, copper and others. There is no iron for the battle of the Mongols or the Rus-horde. The history of Russia begins with Ivan the Terrible and Peter 1.

[Konstantin Shevchenko]

Is there a reason to call me that? I'll check more to see that you are a sissy. Ulan 1812 in English, conqueror of Russia? As they say in Rus', “he screams loudest, stop the thief. Whoever’s hat is on fire.”

[Fangaro]

How in the author’s case all the cubes turn into a ball, a poppy grows from a sunflower seed, and all the historians with their stories turn out to be just sniffers of unknown grass.
I wish I knew how the author prepares mushrooms before he puts pen to paper...

[Keer]

In general, all this nonsense about “stunted horses,” the impossibility of a steppe empire due to the “wretchedness of the nomads,” etc. etc. blizzard, resonates in the minds of the “unburdened”, but is produced by the minds of the “relaxed”. Apparently the Chinese did not read Samson’s, and stubbornly built lines from the homeless.

[Keer]

During the Neolithic revolution, nomads defended their right to eat meat, and therefore did not die by the age of thirty from caries and rickets. Genghis Khan was over seventy, compare this with Pushkin, “an old man of about thirty entered the room.” It is clear that the poet himself was a teenager, but “about thirty” is too much for us in the twentieth - first century. They, the nomads, were stronger in body and mind than the peasant population, and larger in number than the sedentary military elite. In addition, connections with sedentary people allowed them not to run around naked, but to enjoy all the fruits of technical progress. Place your own on thrones in China, India, and throughout Central Asia. Build cities out of the blue, if it was necessary, wash in hamams, pay salaries to astronomers, and build them “research institutes”, and force Nevsky’s dad to gallop to Karakorum for a lanyard.

[Konstantin Shevchenko]

Well, what nonsense you write. There are no roads, no planes. Horses die in the cold. There is also no iron, literally none at all, well, except for those who live permanently in the swamps, even that is not suitable.

[Keer]

Inventory
In three burials, arrowheads, fragments of lamellar armor, quivers, armchairs, knives, bow guards and other military paraphernalia were discovered.

.

Dating of burials
The dating of the burials was established by radiocarbon analysis: the calendar age of burial (mound) No. 1 is between 1260–1300. AD or 1220–1320 AD

. Excavation of the graves of Mongol warriors on the territory of Northern Kazakhstan. Who “couldn’t get there because they didn’t have horses.” The distance from Kerulen to Temirtau, you can look at the map. They found, after all, iron, “which was not there at all”

[Konstantin Shevchenko]

In the north of Kazakhstan, according to the maps of the British, the Nogais lived, just above Bulgaria. Kazakhs are not Mongols. People lived with such attributes in those places until the October Revolution. Iron from the 13th century should rot into dust. Stainless steel tips? High-quality iron was mined only in mines, and blast furnaces only appeared in Western Europe at the end of the 15th century. Perhaps these gentlemen from the three burials also bought iron from Europe. Read about swamp ore. In my opinion, they want to “cheat” with the radiocarbon method. I don’t really understand how they realized that these were visiting Mongols, and not locals or merchants. In the Russian Armory Museum, there is a ton of this stuff, and they are the same, where it says Russian armor and where it says Turkish. And everything is no earlier than the 17th century and this is more like the truth.

[Evil eye]

>were stronger in body and mind than the peasant population

Ultimately, the official version should instill in the people a complex of national masochism: they say, your ancestors were dead and stupid, not like freedom-loving nomads, so get a whip on behalf of the Tsar-Father and don’t tweet.

[Konnick]

Quote: Luminman

Quote: Konnick

what are the Sami on the Oka. And these are not some Sami or Finno-Ugric names

Oka is the most Finno-Ugric toponym. Like Kama, Ryazan, Moscow, etc...

Well, Oka, this is still according to Klyuchevsky’s explanation. And why in Finland itself there are no rivers with the name simply Oka, but only two-syllable names, for example Kemijoki, and in Russia there are no rivers with the name Reka. Because this is a tautology.

[Ulan.1812]

Quote: Konnick

Quote: Luminman

Quote: Konnick

what are the Sami on the Oka. And these are not some Sami or Finno-Ugric names

Oka is the most Finno-Ugric toponym. Like Kama, Ryazan, Moscow, etc...

Well, Oka, this is still according to Klyuchevsky’s explanation. And why in Finland itself there are no rivers with the name simply Oka, but only two-syllable names, for example Kemijoki, and in Russia there are no rivers with the name Reka. Because this is a tautology.

I don’t know how it is with the Finno-Ugric people, but to me they are the same people as others.
It’s only the Ukronazis who have an incomprehensible disdainful attitude towards them as an inferior race.
But that's not what I'm talking about. In Serpukhov, on Cathedral Hill, there is a temple, which is a branch of the Serpukhov Historical and Art Museum. A Slavic dugout boat raised from the bottom of the Oka is on display there.
Dates from the seventh century. That is, even then the Vyatichi Slavs lived in these places.

[Keer]

The backwardness of nomads is as stupid a theory as a flat earth. It doesn't match the facts. The Zhurzhens forged the best weapon iron, the nomads invented the iron stirrup, which made it possible to shoot a bow from a horse accurately, they used a compound bow, which was forgotten in Europe, in order to create something similar in energy, they had to fence a two-meter longbow from which to shoot at You can only move from a stand attached to the mammoth’s back.

[Evil eye]

>>Zhurzheni forged the best weapon iron

Where did they get the ore, where did the fuel come from, how did they ensure MASS PRODUCTION (one good sword against a dozen average swords will not make a difference)

[Seal]

Marbot Jean-Baptiste-Antoine-Marcellin
(1782-1854)
Memoirs of General Baron de Marbot
Chapter XXIX
In the blink of an eye, these vile barbarians, with loud shouts, surrounded our squadrons and pelted them with arrows, which, however, did not bring us much harm, because the Bashkirs, who did not know how to obey any commands, did not know how to line up in ranks, and in the noise and disorder moving like a herd of sheep. Because of this disorder, the Bashkir horsemen could not shoot horizontally without killing or wounding their own comrades who were galloping in front of them. Therefore, the Bashkirs fired their arrows in an arc into the air, and the arrows described a larger or smaller curve, depending on how far away the archers considered the enemy from themselves. However, this method of shooting arrows during a battle does not allow for accurate aiming, so 9/10 of the arrows fall in vain, and the small number that reaches the enemy loses almost all their strength when rising, which is what the bow string imparts to the arrow. Therefore, when an arrow hits a target, it only has the force of its own weight, which is very small, because of this, arrows usually caused only very light wounds. And finally, since the Bashkirs did not have any other weapons, they were the most harmless military unit that exists in the world.
Nevertheless, they attacked us in droves, and since the more wasps they kill, the more new ones fly in, a certain number of arrows fired into the air still caused some serious injuries. Thus, one of my bravest non-commissioned officers named Meslen was pierced through with an arrow. The arrow entered the chest and came out of the back! The fearless Meslen grabbed this arrow with both hands, broke it and himself tore both fragments of the arrow out of his body. However, this could not save him: he died a few moments later. It seems to me that this was the only example of death from an arrow fired by a Bashkir. However, among my men and horses, many were still slightly injured, and even I myself was harmlessly wounded by these ridiculous weapons.
I had a saber in my hand. I was giving orders to one of the officers and stretched out my hand to show him the point where he should go, when suddenly I felt that my saber met some strange resistance, at the same time I felt a slight pain in my right thigh. It turned out that there was a 4-foot long arrow sticking out of it, which entered my body a finger deep. In the heat of battle, I did not notice how this arrow hit me. I ordered Dr. Paro to remove this arrow and hide it in one of the drawers of the regimental hospital, because I wanted to keep this arrow as a souvenir. I'm very sorry that she got lost.
PS There is a Turkish series about Ertuğrul, Osman... This shows the killing power of compound bows in a very realistic way. In many episodes, the film's characters receive 3-5 arrows in the torso. And what ? They break them off and continue to fight. But then they show the process of removing the tips and cauterizing the wounds.
Arrows are the killer weapon in Indian films. When some Indians in loincloths and moccasins shoot arrows from bows at other Indians in loincloths and moccasins.

[dummy]

Since so many TsiPSOshniks were noted in the discussion under this article, the topic is really sore for the collective West. Russia must have a slave history; anyone who is against this is an enemy of the civilization of thieves and pirates.

[Keer]

The Okhlys wanted to receive compensation from the Mongols for the ruin of “medieval Ukraine-Rus” So, they can’t seem to deny the Mongols

[Keer]

In general, all sorts of pseudo-historical nonsense is a much more rewarding topic than pseudo-physical or pseudo-mathematical nonsense, for example. Because stupidity is not so visible at first glance. It is somewhat more difficult to deny the “official” vector algebra, but in other respects it is also possible. We believe in the Samsonovs

[Eugene Zaboy]

Quite a working hypothesis. There is no other way to explain the absence of Mongoloid traces in the DNA of Europeans. The appearance of Mongol-Tatars with typically Russian DNA is quite understandable and is confirmed by many sources, which We often do not read carefully. As you know, the Aryans settled from the region between the Volga and the Urals in the direction not only of Europe, but also headed 5600 years ago to Altai, Iran, Pakistan and India, where they gradually turned into Tatars, or Tartars. This is confirmed by numerous DNA studies, both fossils and living populations of these countries, conducted by both Americans and Israelis. I myself once encountered a team of Indians installing solar panels, who, having learned that I was Russian, unanimously declared that I belonged to the Aryans. I didn’t pull their tongue, it was their initiative. By the way, all the kids are about one meter eighty centimeters tall and of European type, only dark-skinned with dark hair. If we assume that the Tatars were formed as a result of this movement, then everything fits together. Deciding to return, for some reason, they staged a Tatar-Mongol invasion, pushing the Volga Bulgars and South Slavs to Europe. An incomprehensible picture is only around the Khazar Kaganate. Where it (the Kaganate) could exist between the Volga Bulgars and the southern Slavs in the Caspian steppes is somehow unclear. Most likely, it was some kind of temporary settlement (transshipment base) of slave traders, robbers and bandits, as many authoritative researchers claim, and not a state entity between the Caspian Sea and Ukraine, including Kyiv. It is unlikely that the Slavs of that time would have allowed such freedom on their territory. We must not forget that the Caspian territories were inhabited by the southern Slavs and Volga Bulgars, who were not at all weak guys, had their own states in Europe and were able to reach Greece, settling in the Carpathians. And the campaign of the Kyiv princes confirms this. Even Kyiv at that time was not satisfied with this hooliganism. The strange thing is that after such a devastating invasion, even Tatar DNA is missing from the Russian DNA, which is somewhat different from the Russian one and is somewhat late. It turns out that typically Russian people were returning. By the way, even in Ermak’s biography, local “little people” are mentioned everywhere with whom he replenished his army, which began with 600 military men and one cannon. Nonsense, for the conquest of Siberia. It is unlikely that he could take into his small detachment people who spoke a different language and a different culture. And how did he manage to get to the Pacific Ocean without the support of the local population? Which confirms the theoretical calculations of the author of this article. By the way, it is in vain that the author dwells on the Far East. Columbus and the Spaniards were surprised at the warm welcome from the local Indians, who worshiped the cult of the white man. Indian legends directly claim that the white gods who built the pyramids left the country, but promised to return. If not for this attitude, it is unlikely that Columbus would have returned alive.

[Mazunga]

staaa ???serious)))? and who are the Polovtsians and the Pechenegs then)))

[Eugene Zaboy]

The Pechenegs were slaughtered by Byzantium in alliance with the Polovtsians. In the fight against the Polovtsy, Kyiv exposed other princes to attack by refusing support. Just like today, playing the game of a separatist, and not fulfilling the role of the capital of the unifier of lands. As a result, the Polovtsians were defeated by the Tatar-Mongols, if you can call them that. In fact, and apparently, they were called Mongols not by genotype, but by territorial place of residence, or formation of troops. The original Kazakhs and Mongols both lived and still live in their nomadic territories. Did they, at that time, have those famous bows that ensured victory in many battles? It is not people with the haplotype of the Mongols or Kazakhs who are buried in the mounds, but somewhat different ones.

[Keer]

Photo of the ancient Hyperboreans-Rus and Hierborets-Ukra (first on the right)

[Seal]

Quote: Ulan.1812

And let's not count this bullshit.
Firstly, Siberian horse breeds feel quite comfortable in Europe.

Let's see how Ulan.1812 distorts. For example, I (based on the opinion of the respected Przhevalsky) spoke about the Mongolian breed of horses. And Ulan.1812, professionally and gracefully, instead of the Mongolian horse breed, suddenly began to write Siberian horse breeds. What did he say about that? that he did not dive into the topic. Because if he had dived even a little, Ulan.1812 would have known that there is a difference even between the Mongolian and Tuvan horse breeds. Small, but there. But there is a significant difference between the Mongolian breed and the Yakut breed.

Quote: Ulan.1812

Let me remind you that the same Mongolia during the Second World War delivered hundreds of thousands of horses to the Red Army. In your opinion, they immediately had to die from unusual conditions.

This is true. But not like that either. Yes, Mongolia supplied the USSR with about half a million horses during the Great Patriotic War. Alas, I cannot confirm anything, because the information was obtained a long time ago from my personal communication with one already very elderly chief sanitary doctor (I will not name which department) and did not appear on the Internet, but the information deserves 100% trust. The fact is that Mongolia at that time was a country with a very unsatisfactory situation in terms of epizootics.
Read something from this series.

Therefore, the Veterinary Service of the Red Army was not at all delighted with the fact that hundreds of thousands of horses, potential carriers of a bunch of dangerous diseases, would appear at the front. Therefore, the bulk of the horses transferred by Mongolia were left in Buryatia, Yakutia, and so on. And already vaccinated Yakut, Buryat and other horses went to the front. However, a number of horses from Mongolia, for which there was no doubt that they had been vaccinated, certainly ended up at the front. But these were not purebred horses, but mestizos, already capable of ambling.

Quote: Ulan.1812

Secondly, who told you that the Mongols walked in one continuous column?
Maybe stop making idiots out of them? They were preparing, dividing the army into parts in several directions and uniting for battles and the capture of large cities.

Well, don't do that. Don't force peaceful Mongolian herders to "conquer the whole world" back in the 13th century. Here's a question for you. How many roads do you think went, for example, from Moscow to Vladimir in the 14th-16th centuries? One road? Two roads? Three roads? Ten roads?
Here https://topwar.ru/135476-kak-ordyncy-shturmovali-vladimir.html
Samsonov himself wrote (well, he didn’t write it himself, but inserted pieces of text copied from somewhere) that:

Having set Moscow and its environs on fire (“and the villages were burned”), Batu’s troops moved towards Vladimir. Apparently, they again went first along the ice of the Moscow River to the north, and then, passing a forested watershed, they went to Klyazma. Along Klyazma there was a direct road to the capital of the Vladimir principality. The Horde moved along the ice of the rivers.

Excuse me, do you (together with the author) think that the Klyazma is one river or several? And further. Are you generally aware that even today the Mongols in Mongolia, in order to cross a river on a horse, dismount, dig sand or earth, make an earthen or sandy path on the ice, if possible perpendicular to the banks, and only then carefully transfer the horse to another take care In principle, Mongols do not move on the ice of rivers. For according to beliefs, the Water Dragon lives in rivers. Who, God forbid, gets angry. And this Dragon is much more terrible than the local khan. Since a khan can kill a Mongol only once, but the Water Dragon can torment the soul of a Mongol for 10 thousand years.

Quote: Ulan.1812

They practiced all this on hunts.

On what hunts? What are you about ? Here I cited the evidence of the Cossack pioneers and the explorer of Central Asia Koltsov that the Mongols did not remember anything about those cities whose ruins the Cossacks and Koltsov saw. Can you give an example of even describing in your memoirs a Mongol hunt of more than 100 people?

Quote: Ulan.1812

No one has accepted the numbers 300 thousand or 400 for a long time.

You see, this term “no one accepts” is purely subjective. Well, how is it that they used to accept it, but now they say “they don’t accept it”? What's happened ? Maybe you have discovered some authentic documents that provide data on the size of the “Mongol army”? No, nothing new has been discovered in the last 200 years. So on what basis did you decide to reduce the number? They just took it and decided that: “There wasn’t that much”? How much do you think “was”. Only evidentially, and not “So the historians sat down in a row, looked at the ceiling, scratched their heads and decided that there were significantly fewer Mongols.”

Quote: Ulan.1812

So you initially laying the wrong data, make the wrong conclusions.

Well, who actually provided the incorrect data?
And at least I pawned something.
But you haven’t pledged anything!!! You didn't provide any information!!!!
You have no data on the population of Mongolia, not only then, but even in the 17th century.
You have no data on the size of the notorious “great Mongol army” at all.
But literally by day you “know exactly” when “the Mongols took this or that city”, you know the names of all the khans, you know who whose son was, with whom he was friends and with whom he was at enmity, and you also “know exactly” hundreds of the smallest details.
But you don't know the main thing.
This doesn't happen in life.
This is what happens in fairy tales.

[Seal]

Quote: Ulan.1812

You can read Mikhail Gorelik.

Excuse me, but is it okay that Mikhail Gorelik was born in 1946 and that his monographs do not refer to any authentic document of that time or at least to a narrative source of a memoir nature of that time?

[Seal]

Quote: Stirbjorn

I just didn’t understand, you read the trilogy

I read his trilogy and the works of other writers who wrote on “historical topics” at school age. At school age it was interesting to read. And I even believed what was written. But since then I personally have matured. And you ?

[Seal]

Quote: Ulan.1812

Identification of present-day Mongolia and the Khalkha Mongols with the empire of Genghis and other bullshit. The Arabs could, the Macedonian could... reached as far as India, the Huns could, Tamerlane could, the Ottomans could, and only the Horde could not.

Arabs? So, did the Arabs march in armies of hundreds of thousands or was it just a new religion spreading?
Macedonian?? Huns? Are you trying to confirm one fairy tale with other fairy tales?
Tamerlane fought without moving far from the borders of his own state. Only once did he make a “long hike,” so to speak, all the way to Yelets, moving more than 1500 km from his borders.
Here, by the way, is about Macedonian. This was once the official version. But then it was replaced with an alternative, much more stupid and illogical. But the Western world is more pleasant.

[Seal]

Quote: kor1vet1974

And what do you think the opinions of historians are based on?

About historians. Today's historians are certified amateurs who have no knowledge in any of the real professions, who have memorized fiction books on historical topics written by even greater amateurs (since they did not have a diploma in historical education) 200-400 years ago. Smart people have long understood what our Quality History is. And I humbly add my quiet voice to them.
1) "History is only a fable accepted by all."
B. Fontenel
2) "History is a fiction with which everyone agrees."
Вольтер
3) "In the history of any nation there are many pages that would be magnificent, if they were true."
Denis Diderot
4) "History is sometimes something that never happened, described by those who have never been there."
E. Poncela
5) "History begins when nothing is already impossible to verify."
V. Verkhovsky
6) "Those who make history often at the same time falsify it."
V. Brudzinsky
7) "No one has changed the history of mankind like historians."
E. Mackenzie
8) "God cannot change the past, but historians can. And it must be just because sometimes they render this service that God tolerates their existence."
Samuel Butler
9) "History is like a meat paste: it is better not to peer at how it is prepared."
Aldous Huxley
10) "Everything is in the hands of the Lord, and only History has slipped out of His control."
Zbigniew Hedgehog
11) "What will history say?" "History, sir, lies, as always." George Bernard Shaw
12) "If you remove all the lies from history, this does not mean at all that only the truth will remain - as a result, nothing may remain at all."
Jerzy Stanislav Lets.
13) The depth of centuries is already visible to us in indistinguishable detail, and only the historian has been given the opportunity to lie in documents.
I.M. Guberman

[Seal]

Quote: Ulan.1812

Well, yes ... all the Mongols gathered in the same village.
Well, fools.

Fine. How many villages do you think were located in Rus' on an area of ​​500 square kilometers? And what is the population, both total and on average, of 1 village.

[Seal]

Quote: Kote pane Kohanka

So a village of 15 yards,

And how many such villages were there in Rus' at that very period? Well, for example, per 100 sq. km. how many villages were there? And excuse me, in January the hay reserves in the villages are no longer the same as in October. In February they are not the same as even in January. Especially in March.

[Seal]

Quote: Ulan.1812

Whose cards? Western? There is no Tartaria in Russian.

Have you actually seen many Russian maps of the 15th-17th centuries? And why are you not satisfied with Fyodor Godunov’s map? Is it really just because it was published for the first time in the West?

[Seal]

Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk

And heaps of European, Chinese and other sources on which this opinion was formed.

Let's talk not on the scale of "building a world revolution", but on the scale of building a specific barn. Provide a specific source and ..... we will look at it.

[Seal]

Quote: kalibr

Everything was rewritten by Vatican agents

Not rewritten. Simply created. And it is distributed all over the world.
World history was created on the basis of many circumstances. For example.
1. First of all, of the religious. There was a Bible. It contains the Old Testament. The Old Testament contains the prophecy of the Prophet Daniel about four successive kingdoms. What does this mean? So these kingdoms need to find a place in History.
Jews fled Egypt? So you need to find a place in History and Egypt and the Jews.
2. Legal and economic factor. As soon as society realized that there could be not only the common, but also “MY”, that is, that there could be private property, then disputes immediately began about who owns something tasty from private property (a half-gnawed mammoth bone, a spear, or bow, boat, hut, house, palace, field, village with inhabitants, city, etc.). And in these disputes for many centuries, the only proof of correctness (well, with the exception of a punch in the face) was the presentation of any “evidence” that the ancestor of one disputant owned this something earlier than the ancestor of the other disputant. This simply caused a flurry of production of ancient “documents”, indicating that such or such an “ancient ruler” presented the disputed ancestor of one of the disputants. Or he didn’t necessarily give it as a gift, but was passing through and was received by the ancestor of one debater, and not the other. Or exempted from taxes. In general, all kinds of “ancient documents” were produced en masse and all kinds of “ancient kings and emperors” were put into circulation. Which all they did was visit someone and exempt them from taxes :)
3. Political factors. And this is closer to ours. So the good Catholic Poles wanted to spoil their eastern neighbor and wrote some crap - then why shouldn’t the Vatican support this crap with its authority. And no special orders are needed. In an extreme case, oral advice could have been given to some bishop sent to episcopacy in Poland, saying, look for some greyhound writer there, and let him invent something nasty about these Moscow schismatics. Otherwise, for some reason they don’t want to become good Catholics.
The Vatican does not like the fact that the Turkish Sultan sends the popes on an erotic journey and beats the crusader troops, which means that the Ottoman Empire will receive its portion of dirt.
4. Further, it is closer to the present. By the end of the 19th century, their historical plots, from which they harvested cabbage, ceased to be enough for feeding the bred historians, they introduced a new plot - the Hittites. Without which, history until the end of the 19th century did well. The "Sumerians" also appeared. Now "ancient Ukrainians" are being introduced into scientific circulation. ...
About distribution.
The Jesuits carried out the most important mission - disseminating the Vatican version of history throughout the world. And not only the Jesuits, but also a lot of monks of other orders. For example, not only the well-known Dominicans, but also the now little-known Cistercians. But in the 80th century, the General Chapter of the Cistercian Order obliged all monastic abbeys, numbering more than 40 monks, to found schools at the monasteries. All abbeys with more than 1770 monks were required to send at least two people to study at the University of Paris. Many Cistercian abbeys had the best libraries for their time - the Clairvaux library contained 2000 manuscripts in the XNUMXth century, and the library of Himmerod Abbey about XNUMX
All these fighters of the Vatican’s ideological front understood that it was after the people were indoctrinated with the Vatican’s version of history that it would be easier for them to fulfill the most important mission - to spread Christianity.
You can see anything and anyone. But those whose minds have been captured by the Vatican version of history, even if they find the remains of a monkey, will still claim that “the remains of the Mongols” have been found.

[Evil eye]

Well, here you are, my friend, going a little too far. If history was created from scratch, then there was no need, for example, to rely on the Bible - it could also be written from scratch, and all the rough edges would be immediately removed. And why, for example, was it necessary to invent the acts of the biblical kings from scratch, who did this, this is just redundant information...

In fact, the Bible most likely contains genuine information about the origins of civilization. Not in Palestine, but in the Roman Empire. The biblical kings are the first Roman Caesars.

[tth]

Oh, this year is the first article on this topic, apparently the next one will be in the spring, along with the next exacerbation.

[Seal]

Quote: Keer

MONGOLIAN AND CHINESE SOURCES
XNUMXth-XNUMXth centuries ABOUT EASTERN EUROPE

Basically, it’s again about the notorious “Yuan shi”

"Yuan Shi" is a Chinese official chronicle compiled in 1369-1370. by order
first emperor of the new Ming dynasty. "Yuan Shi" contains a summary of events
reigns of the emperors of the previous dynasty (i.e. Yuan) in chronological order (section
“Benji” - “Basic Records”, the actual annals of the reigns of the Mongol khans); chronological
and genealogical tables (section “Biao” - “Tables”);

[Seal]

Quote: kalibr

Quote: Seal

either 300 thousand people, or 400 thousand people

Where are these numbers taken from?

I showed you where “these numbers” came from.
Now a question for you. In what numbers do you determine the number of the notorious “Mongol-Tatars” and where did you get these numbers from?

[Seal]

Quote: Ulan.1812

The main striking force of the Horde army was heavily armed, armored cavalry. Which dealt a decisive blow if the archers could not put the enemy to flight.

MONGOLIAN HORSE, a local steppe horse of ancient origin, bred in the Mongolia. Small in stature (height at withers about 130 cm), with well-developed muscles, strong legs, thick hair. It is hardy, moves well on the sands of dry steppes and semi-deserts, easily climbs hills, tolerates severe frosts, and is adapted to year-round herd keeping on pasture.
In M. l. fast step, free gallop, trot is not developed. The most common colors are gray and bay. Used M. l. under saddle, pack and in harness, as well as as a meat and dairy animal (kumys is prepared from milk). Durable, remains operational for up to 18 years or more. Lit.: Book about the horse, ed. S. M. Budyonny, vol. 1, M., 1952.

Now from the Federal State Budgetary Institution "All-Russian Research Institute of Horse Breeding" and other horse breeding sources.

Akhal-Teke
Akhal-Teke horses are quite tall (height at the withers is on average 159-160 cm), narrow-bodied horses. The head is light, dry, with an elongated and thinned facial part, long thin ears and a special, “Tekin” eye shape. The neck is long, with a high outlet, vertically set. High withers, long back, deep chest, lean belly, thin legs with well-developed tendons.
Weight: stallions up to 600 kg; mares 400-500 kg.

European breeds

Vladimir breed. Average measurements for stallions are 167,2-175, and for mares - 166,1-175,3. weight of stallions – up to 750 kg, mares – 580 kg.

Mongolian breed weight: 270–350 kg.

The growth of a Mongolian.
Over the past 100 years, the French have become taller by 8 cm, the Swedes - by 15 cm, the Iranians - by 17 cm. The South Koreans have surpassed everyone and grown by as much as 20 cm. The Netherlands has overtaken America and generally become the tallest nation in the world: the average height of the Dutch is 185 cm. In Russia, on average, they grew by 10 cm. The Americans used to be the tallest: before the start of World War II, their average height was 177 cm, but by the end of the XNUMXth century it had stagnated.

Now the tallest men and women live in the Netherlands, Belgium, Estonia, Latvia, Denmark, the Czech Republic and Serbia. The shortest are the residents of Timor-Leste (their height is 160 cm) and Guatemalan women (their height is 149 cm).

I believe that a Mongolian can be easily correlated with a South Korean. Well, okay, if we consider that the Mongols have grown by at least 100 cm in 15 years, it means that the height of a Mongol “in ancient times” was 30-40 cm lower than the height of a Slav (Turkmen, European).
Well, what do we have?
We have people with a height of about 130-140 cm, who, on horses corresponding to their height, with a height of 125-130 cm, weighing about 300 kg, who, putting on armor, gallop at a free gallop towards the European or Turkmen cavalry. That is, they gallop at riders who themselves are 30-40 cm taller than the Mongols (and heavier), and who at the same time sit on horses 159-175 cm high and weighing from 400 to 750 kg.
Excuse me, isn’t it funny for you to imagine such a picture?
Here is a photo of modern (that is, taller) Mongols and their horses of the traditional Mongolian breed.

[Seal]

Quote: Serg65

So I ask...where were these peoples in 1230?

I believe that the ancestors of today's Mongols were peacefully grazing their cattle in their region in 1230. In general, what kind of answer can you expect from such a question? We haven't yet invented the Time Machine to look into the past. But there are no documents drawn up at that very time. Absolutely not. And without documents there is no History. For you cannot build the edifice of History on narrative alone.

[Seal]

Quote: Carmela

But it came

In fairy tales. But in reality?

[Seal]

Quote: aleksejkabanets

When the state cannot boast of successes in the economy, medicine, space exploration, etc. it then invents such chimeras about Tartary and “there were no Mongols” and similar anti-scientific nonsense.

Excuse me, which specific state do you mean? What kind of state cannot boast of successes in economics, medicine, space exploration, etc. ???
Why is the chimera about “Great Tartary” worse than the chimera about “Great Mongolia”??? By the way, the chimera about Great Tartary is still more logical than the generally anti-logical chimera about Great Mongolia.
Anti-scientific? Do you seriously think that the descriptive discipline “History” is worthy of bearing the high title of “Science”??? But what about the criteria for being scientific? Where will you put them?

[certero]

https://youtu.be/-FO94oAtfPU
I recommend that the author of this post listen to this video where Doctor of Historical Sciences Nazarenko talks about this very “never existed” yoke.
At the same time, he learns about the presence of a huge amount of archaeological evidence of the Tatar-Mongol invasion.

[Edvagan]

another "alternative history"? Queue for Bebik!!!

[odisey3000]

There are few real violent ones and there are no leaders, well, stop giving the floor to alternative historians, ignorant people will read it and really think that it happened. This article is the anti-scientific nonsense of a madman on a clear moonlit night. I read it and laughed for a long time, thanks for making me laugh.

[Eugene Zaboy]

Really? What is anti-scientific in comments, for example Seal, that confirm Samsonov’s conclusions.

Quote: Seal

As you can see, these Mongols did not count dozens in the 16th century, which is emphasized by the translator-publisher in his commentary:
A fine in the late medieval Mongolian legal tradition was designated by the term “anz” / “anzu”, i.e. a fine with cattle. “Unit” of a fine in Mongolian law Nine” or “five” is a common “unit of fine” in late medieval Mongolian legislation, the composition of which is given in Art. 2–3 Codes.

Or

Quote: Seal

MONGOLIAN HORSE, a local steppe horse of ancient origin, bred in the Mongolia. Small in stature (height at withers about 130 cm), with well-developed muscles, strong legs, thick hair.

Quite well reasoned. If the Mongols organized a campaign to the West, then where did they get the organization of the army based on tens (squad), hundreds (company), thousands (regiment), ten thousand (division). By the way, the system is adopted practically unchanged in all modern armies of the world. Good question? And the horses are clearly too weak for such a large-scale campaign, especially for use as cavalry. Somehow everything doesn’t fit together if you put the picture together into a single whole. Archaeologists have been digging the old, destroyed settlement of Ryazan for decades. Surely somewhere nearby there are mass graves of fallen “Tatar-Mongol” soldiers. We are waiting for the results of the DNA examination. As the Germans did at the site of an ancient battle. It will be very educational for the science called history. It's strange that they haven't done this yet. Probably some people really don’t want to ruin their career and reputation as a great learned historian and archaeologist, or they are too lazy to rewrite it, or somehow the Khazar Kaganate, in today’s edition, does not fit into the real version.