Project 26 and 26 bis cruisers. Part of 6: "Maxim Gorky" against "Belfast"

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At the end of the technical part of the description of the 26 and 26-bis cruisers, a few words should be said about the structural protection of the hull against underwater damage. It must be said that light cruisers could never boast an adequate level of protection: the very idea of ​​a high-speed ship of moderate displacement prevents this. A light cruiser is long, but relatively small in width, and its vehicles must be very powerful to provide excellent speed.

At the end of the 20-x - the beginning of the 30-ies, the displacement of light cruisers "grew up" compared with representatives of their class of the First World War, they needed more powerful power plants than before. And if the same British cruisers used to get along with a pair of turbine units that operated on two shafts, now they began to install 4 machines on them that set the 4 propeller in motion. The consequences were not long in coming - even when breaking the engine room into two compartments, each of them still had to install two cars. Of course, there was no room left for any PTZ; in fact, many cruisers only covered a double bottom.



Project 26 and 26 bis cruisers. Part of 6: "Maxim Gorky" against "Belfast"

Cross section of the light cruiser "Linder" in the area of ​​engine rooms

The same problem haunted even heavy cruisers.


Cross section of the heavy cruiser "Trieste" in the area of ​​boiler rooms

Of course, there were exceptions to the rule, for example, the famous French heavy cruiser Algeri, whose armor and structural protection is considered exemplary. Suffice it to recall that the depth of the anti-torpedo protection of this cruiser reached 5 meters, not all battleships could boast such protection. But on “Algeri”, a similar result was achieved due to the very low speed for the cruiser (according to the project, only 31 ties), and besides, it should be borne in mind that the French shipbuilding school was distinguished by the unique quality of the theoretical drawings for its ships, no one in the world could argue, and this provided them with the maximum speed with the minimum power of the machines.

The Italians built a lot of four-cruisers, but they initially planned to install two-shaft power plants on their Kondotieri, which required very powerful turbine units. The power plants of the Alberico da Barbiano-type cruisers and the Luigi Cadorna following them didn’t work very well, but the Italians gained the necessary experience, so the turbines and boilers for the next series of Raimondo Montecuccoli and Eugenio di Savoia were not only powerful, but also quite reliable. The need for only two turbine units (and three boilers for each) made it possible to arrange them in a "row", while the distance from the boilers and cars to the sides was large enough to ... what? Like it or not, it is impossible to create a serious PTZ in the dimensions of a light cruiser. All these anti-torpedo (including - armored) bulkheads ... even on the battleship "Yamato" worked through time. To recall at least the PTZ of the battleship Prince of Wells - a very sturdy construction simply drove into the depths of the hull, which is why the compartments it was designed to protect still flooded.

The creators of the project 26 and 26-bis went the other way - designed the cruiser so that in the area of ​​the sides turned out a large number of small-sized compartments. At the same time, the cruiser was divided by length into 19 waterproof compartments, and the watertight bulkheads below the armor deck were made solid, without any doors or necks. Such protection was not, of course, as effective as an American-type PTZ, but it still could significantly limit the sinking of the ship and could probably be considered optimal for a light cruiser.



In addition, the Soviet cruisers received a high-quality and robust hull of a mixed set system, with special strengthening of the places where the longitudinal set was replaced by the transverse one. All this together provided the 26 and 26-bis cruisers with excellent seaworthiness and survivability. The cruiser "Kirov" without any problems kept the 24 node against the wave in the 10-ball storm, the "Petropavlovsk" (formerly "Lazar Kaganovich") passed a typhoon in the Sea of ​​Okhotsk.


The same typhoon

The cruisers lost their nose ("Maxim Gorky") and the stern ("Molotov") but, nevertheless, returned to the bases. Of course, similar situations occurred with the ships of other countries (for example, the heavy cruiser "New Orleans"), but this indicates, at least, that our ships were no worse. And, of course, the most impressive demonstration of the survivability of domestic cruisers was the detonation of the “Kirov” on the German TMC ground mine, when an explosive in the amount equivalent to 910 kg of trotyl was detonated under the nose of a Soviet ship.

That day - October 17 1945 g "Kirov" received a terrible blow, even more dangerous, because the cruiser was not staffed by crew. Moreover, the shortage concerned both the officers - there were no senior officer, commanders of warheads-5, movement division, boiler electrical and turbo-engine groups, and junior command personnel and sailors (the same warhead-5 was equipped with 41,5%). Nevertheless, the cruiser managed to survive - despite the fact that 9 of adjacent compartments was flooded, although according to initial calculations, flooding was provided only with the flooding of three.



In general, it can be stated that the seaworthiness and survivability of the Kirov and Maxim Gorky-type cruisers was quite at the level of the best foreign ships of the corresponding displacement.

So, what we got in the end? Soviet cruisers of the 26 and 26 bis projects turned out to be strong, fast, well protected from the impact of 152-mm projectiles (although this probably applies only to 26-bis cruisers). They were equipped with a completely adequate main caliber, superior in power to the 152-mm artillery of light cruisers, but somewhat inferior to the 203-mm guns of their heavy counterparts. The 26 and 26-bis ship fire control instruments were very sophisticated and among the best cruisers in the world. The only truly serious drawback of the Soviet ships is their anti-aircraft artillery, and not so much in the part of the CCP (everything was normal there), but as the artillery systems themselves.

Let's try to compare the domestic Maxim Gorky type cruisers with their foreign peers. What was happening in stories world cruising in the period when the ships of the project 26-bis were built in the USSR?

As you know, for a long time, the development of cruisers was limited to various maritime agreements, which left their mark on the shipbuilding programs of all the leading fleets of the world. The Washington Maritime Agreement has led countries to rush to create 203-mm ten-thousands, although many powers have not thought about such large and powerful cruisers before. But at the same time, the construction of light cruisers continued, and they obviously differed from their heavy counterparts: in addition to lighter guns (152-155 mm), light cruisers also had a much smaller displacement (within 5-8 thousand tons).

All this harmony of the cruiser classification overnight was destroyed by the Japanese - they, you see, really wanted to build heavy cruisers under the guise of light, so the 1934 G series laid ships of the Mogami type, allegedly in 8 500 t standard displacement and with 15 * 152- mm guns.


Cruiser "Mogami", 1935 g

If it were not for the contractual restrictions on the tonnage of heavy cruisers, such monsters would never have seen the light - the Japanese, without further ado, would simply have laid down another series of heavy cruisers. In fact, they did just that because the Mogami was a heavy cruiser, to which temporarily installed three-gun 152-mm turrets instead of two-gun eight-inch ones.

And if the rest of the countries were free to choose the answer, then with the highest degree of probability they would oppose the usual heavy cruisers to the Japanese. But the problem was that countries had already chosen their limits for such ships and could only build light cruisers. However, to create ships armed with 8-9 six-inch guns against the fifteen-gun Mogami did not seem to be a wise decision, and therefore the British planted Southampton with 12, and the Americans launched Brooklyn with 15 152-mm guns. All this, of course, was not a natural development of the light cruiser, but only the reaction of the USA and England to the Japanese trick, but it led to the fact that, starting in 1934, the fleets of England and the USA replenished the cruisers, which were very close in size to heavy, but having only 152 mm artillery. Therefore, we will compare the domestic project 26 bis cruisers with the generation of “multi-gun” light cruisers: the British “taunas” and “Fiji”, the American “Brooklyn”, the Japanese “Mogami” in its 155-mm hypostasis. And from the heavy cruisers we take the same Mogami, but already with 203 mm guns, the Italian Zara, the French Algeri, the German Admiral Hipper and the American Wichita. We emphasize that ships are subject to comparison at the time of their transfer the fleet, and not after any subsequent upgrades, and that the comparison is subject to equal training of crews - i.e. the human factor is excluded from comparison.

"Maxim Gorky" against the British

Surprisingly, but the fact is that in the entire Royal Navy there was no cruiser that would have a tangible superiority over the cruiser of the 26-bis project due to its tactical and technical characteristics. The British heavy cruisers were truly “cardboard”: having “armored belts” as much as an inch thick and equally “powerful” traverses, towers and barbets, all these “Kents” and “Norflokle” were vulnerable even to 120-130-mm destroyer artillery , and the 37-mm deck didn’t protect very well against 152-mm projectiles, let alone more. The only more or less decent booking - 111 mm armor plates covering the cellars, could not drastically improve the situation. Of course, neither the 70-mm board nor the 50 mm deck of the Soviet cruisers also provided reliable protection against the semi-armored British 203-mm shells, but the victory in a hypothetical fight between Maxim Gorky and, for example, Norfolk would be determined by Mrs. Fortuna - whose projectile first falls into something important, he won. At the same time, the Soviet cruiser still had the advantages of choosing the distance of the battle (it was faster than the 31-node British TKR), and its armor, albeit insufficient, still provided somewhat better fighting stability to the Soviet ship, because it’s better to have at least some protection, than not to have any. The last British heavy cruisers had somewhat better reservations, but poor protection of the decks (37 mm), towers and barbets (25 mm) did not help against the Maxim Gorky shells, while 6 * 203-mm Exeter and York "At best, equivalent to 9 Soviet 180-mm guns. On light cruisers like "Linder" and say nothing.

But on the "Town" type cruisers, the British seriously strengthened the defense. In total, the British built three series of such ships - type "Southampton" (5 ships), type "Manchester" (3 ship) and "Belfast" (2 ship), and the booking increased with each series, and the last "Belfast" and "Edinburgh" are considered the best light cruisers in the UK and the most protected cruiser ships of the Royal Navy.


Light cruiser "Belfast", 1939 g

Already the first "Towns" - Southampton-type cruisers, received an impressive 114 mm citadel, stretching to 98,45 m (from "Maxim Gorky - 121 m), and covering not only the boiler and engine rooms, but also the cellar of anti-aircraft guns and the central post: however, the traverse armor was only 63 mm. The 152-mm cellars had all the same “boxed” scheme - 114 mm from the sides, 63 mm in the stern and the bow, and on top of the citadel and cellar covered 32 mm of armored deck. The towers were still “cardboard”, their forehead, walls and roof were protected only with 25,4 mm armor, but the situation with the barbets improved slightly - they were used for differential booking, now they had 51 mm armor from the side of the barbet, but in the stern and bow - all the same 25,4 mm. The conning tower was defended ... as many as 9,5 mm sheets - even such a splinterproof such a “reservation” to call the language would not turn. Perhaps these “armor players” could have saved the attacking dive bomber from machine guns ... maybe not. In the second series (type “Manchester”), the British tried to fix the most glaring gaps in protection - the towers received a front plate in 102 mm, and the roofs and walls - 51 mm. The armored deck was also reinforced, but only above the cellars, where its thickness had grown from 32 mm to 51 mm.

But Belfast and Edinburgh received the greatest increase in protection - their 114-mm armor-belt now covered the cellars of the main-caliber towers, which made it unnecessary to have their box-type protection. The thickness of the deck was finally increased to 51 mm above the engine and boiler rooms and even to 76 mm above the cellars. The booking of barbets was again strengthened - now their thickness along the sides of the deck was 102 mm, and on the bow and stern - 51 mm. And if Maxim Gorky, obviously, was superior to Southampton in reservations and was approximately equal (or slightly inferior) to Manchester, then Belfast had an undoubted advantage in terms of booking.

Good booking from the British was supplemented by a very perfect material part of the artillery of the main caliber. A dozen 152-mm guns were placed in four three-gun turrets, with each gun placed in an individual cradle and, of course, with separate vertical guidance. The British went to unprecedented measures to reduce dispersion in the salvo - not only did they bring the distance between the axes of the barrels to 198 cm (for the much more powerful 203-mm guns of the Admiral Hipper had 216 cm), they also shifted the central gun to 76 mm deep into the turret, in order to reduce the influence of powder gases on the shells of neighboring guns!

What is interesting - the British themselves noted that even such radical measures did not eradicate the problem completely. However, the British Mk.XXIII gun, capable of firing 50,8 kg with a semi-armored projectile with an initial speed of 841 m / s, was one of the most formidable six-inch guns in the world. Its semi-projectile projectile (the British did not have any purely armor-piercing 152-203-mm projectiles) contained 1,7 kg of explosives, i.e. almost as much as the armor-piercing shell of the domestic 180-mm cannon, high-explosive - 3,6 kg. With an initial speed of 841 m / s, the firing range of the 50,8 kg projectile should have been 125 kb. At the same time, each British gun was supplied with its own feeder, while the Belfast cruisers supplied 6 shots (projectile and charge) per minute to the gun, although the practical rate of fire was slightly higher and amounted to 6-8 shots / min to the gun.

However, this is a good news "For the British" end.

In many works (and countless online battles) devoted to the artillery of the main caliber of the 26 and 26-bis cruisers, it is indicated that, although the weight of the 180-mm projectile exceeds that of the 152-mm, but six-inch guns have a much higher rate of fire, so, and fire performance. It is usually considered so - take data on the rate of fire of the B-1-P at the very minimum (2 rds / min, although, in the author's opinion, it would be more correct to assume no less than 3 rds / min) and consider the weight of the salvo fired per minute: 2 rd / min * 9 guns * 97,5 kg projectile weight = 1755 kg / min., while in the same British Belfast 6 shots / min * 12 guns * 50,8 kg = 3657,6 kg / min or 2,08 times more, than the cruisers like "Kirov" or "Maxim Gorky"! Well, let's see how such arithmetic will work in the event of a confrontation between the Belfast and the cruiser of the 26-bis project.

The first thing that immediately catches the eye - in many sources devoted to English cruisers, the most interesting moment is not mentioned - it turns out that the British six-inch towers in three-armored towers had a fixed loading angle. More precisely, not quite fixed - they could be charged at the angle of vertical pickup of guns from -5 to + 12,5 hail, but the most preferred was the 5-7 hail range. What follows from this? If we take the firing rate of the Admiral Hipper's guns, which also had a fixed loading angle (3 hail), then due to the lowering time of the barrel to the loading angle and giving the desired elevation angle after loading, the firing rate at angles close to direct aiming was in 1,6 times higher than at extreme elevation angles. Those. the German cruiser could shoot with a rate of fire at 4 rds / min to the barrel, but only 2,5 rds / min at maximum ranges. Something similar is true for English cruisers, whose rate of fire should drop with increasing distance, but usually 6-8 rds / min is given without indicating at which elevation angle this rate of fire was achieved. At the same time, guided by the ratio of 1,6, we get that even for 8 rds / min at direct fire, the rate of fire at the maximum elevation angle will be no more than 5 rds / min. But, okay, let's say that 6-8 rds / min - this is the firing rate of tower installations "town" at maximum / minimum elevation angles, respectively, taking into account the rate of ammunition, the cruiser can make 6 rpm / min guaranteed from each of its guns. However, it should be remembered that “shoot” and “hit” are fundamentally different concepts, and if Belfast has a theoretical opportunity to fire volleys every 10 seconds, is it able to develop such a pace in battle?

Practice has shown that this is impossible. For example, in the “New Year's battle”, shooting at full 85 KBT at a distance, the British “Sheffield” (“Southampton” type) and “Jamaica” (“Fiji” type, which also had four three-gun towers with six-inch guns), fired at (i.e., developing a maximum rate of fire, firing to kill), firing one volley a little faster than in 20 seconds, which corresponds only to 3-3,5 rds / min. But why?

One of the biggest problems of naval artillery is pitching a ship. After all, the ship, and hence any artillery gun on it is in constant motion, which is completely impossible to ignore. For example, the error of vertical pickup at 1 degrees when firing domestic 180-mm guns at a distance of about 70 kbt gives a deviation in range by almost 8 kbt, i.e. almost half a kilometer! In the pre-war years, some technically advanced countries tried to stabilize medium-caliber anti-aircraft guns (such as the Germans with their very sophisticated 105-mm anti-aircraft guns). But in those years, stabilization did not work too well, the delay in reaction was commonplace even on relatively light anti-aircraft artillery: and no one even thought about trying to stabilize the heavy towers of the main caliber of cruisers and battleships. But how then did they shoot them? And it is very simple - according to the principle: "If the mountain does not go to Mohammed, then Mohammed goes to the mountain."

No matter how the ship rolls, the moment when the ship is on an even keel is sure to happen. Therefore, for shooting they used special gyros-inclinometers, which captured the moment of “even keel” and only then closed the firing circuits. Shooting took place like this: the main artilleryman, using a submachine gun, set the correct angles of horizontal and vertical guidance, as soon as the guns were loaded and aimed at the target, the commanders in the towers pressed the button of readiness for firing, which caused the corresponding light on the console. The ship's chief artilleryman, as the guns assigned to them showed their readiness, pressed the salvo! Button, and ... nothing happened. The inclinometer gyroscope “waited” when the ship was on an even keel, and only after that the volley followed.

And now we take into account that the period of rolling (ie the time during which the ship (ship) when swinging from one extreme position goes into the opposite position and returns to its original position) for light cruisers is, on average, 10-12 seconds . Accordingly, the ship turns with zero roll on board every 5-6 seconds.

The practical rate of fire of Belfast guns is 6 rds / min, but the fact is that this is the rate of fire of one tower installation, but not the entire ship. Those. if the commanders of each individual tower accurately know the angles at each instant of time, shoot as soon as they are aimed, then the tower can really do 6 rpm from each gun. The only problem is that in life this never happens. The main gunner introduces adjustments to the machine gun, and his calculations may be delayed. In addition, a volley is made on readiness of all four towers, enough failure in one of them - the rest will have to wait. And finally, even if all the 4 turrets were made for firing right on time, a little time would be needed for the chief gunner’s reaction, because if you shoot yourself at gunfire you should be shot, then when centralized, only the gun button is ready for battle, and you need more to glavart, making sure that all the guns are ready, pressed his button. All this spends precious seconds, but what does it lead to?

For example, with centralized shooting, a penalty of 1 per second occurs and Belfast can fire at every 10, but every 11 seconds when rolling with a period of 10 seconds. Here the ship makes a volley - at this moment it has no roll on board. Through 5, the ship again has no lurch on board, but it cannot yet shoot - the guns are not ready yet. After another 5 sec (and 10 sec from the beginning of the shooting), he will miss the “roll = 0” position again, and only after one second he will be ready to fire again - but now he will have to wait another 4 seconds until the roll on board again becomes equal to zero Thus, not 11 will pass between the volleys, but all 15 seconds, and then everything will be repeated in the same order. This is how 11 seconds of “practical centralized rate of fire” (5,5 rds / min) smoothly turn into 15 seconds (4 rds / min), but in reality everything is much worse. Yes, the ship really takes the position “roll on board = 0” every 5-6 seconds, but after all, besides rolling, there is also a keel one, and the fact that the ship does not roll on board does not mean that it is this moment has no roll on the bow or stern, and in this case it is also impossible to shoot - the shells will go away from the target.

Taking into account all the above, we understand why the real combat rate of fire of the 152-mm guns was much lower than practical.

Of course, all of the above will affect the rate of fire of the heavier guns of the Maxim Gorky. But the fact is that the lower the rate of fire of a weapon, the less it will reduce pitching. If the pitching allows the ship to fire every 5 seconds, then the maximum delay of the volley will be 5 seconds. For a ship with a 6 shot rate / min rate of fire, a five-second delay will reduce it to 4 shots / min, i.e. in 1,5 times, and for a ship with a rate of 3 shots / min - up to 2,4 shots / min or 1,25 times.

But another thing is interesting. The maximum rate of fire - certainly an important indicator, but there is in fact such a thing as the speed of fire. After all, until they shoot at the enemy, it makes no sense to open a quick fire, unless it is about shooting at close range. But first - a couple of words about the English fire control system.

Belfast has two KDPs against one at Maxim Gorky, but each KDP of the English cruiser had only one range finder, and not a single source indicates the presence of a scartometer. This means that the KDP of a British ship can measure one thing - or the distance to an enemy ship, or to its own volleys, but not both at the same time, as the cruiser of the 26-bis project, which has three rangefinders in the KDP, could do. Accordingly, for the Englishman, only zeroing was possible according to observations of the signs of falling, i.e. The most archaic and slowest method of zeroing at the beginning of the Second World War. Given the fact that the six-inch shells had a significant variation at large distances, the adjustment was made only full volleys. It looked like this:
1) The cruiser fires a 12-gun volley and waits for the shells to fall;
2) According to the results of the fall, the chief artilleryman gives corrections to the sight;
3) The cruiser fires the next 12-gun volley at the corrected sight, and then everything repeats.

And now - attention. The British 75-mm shells fly 152 seconds to the 29,4 kbt. Those. after each volley the English chief must wait almost half a minute, then he will see a fall. Then he still has to determine the deviations, make adjustments to the machine gun, the gunners have to tighten the sight, and only after that (again, when the ship gets on an even keel) the next volley will follow. How long will it take to adjust the sight? 5 seconds? 10? Author is unknown. But it is known that the 180-mm projectile of the Maxim Gorky cruiser overcomes the same 75 kb in just 20,2 seconds, and here it turns out quite interesting.

Even if it is assumed that 5-10 seconds are needed to correct the sight after the shells fall, the English cruiser can fire every 35-40 seconds, because the time between shots for it is counted as the time of the projectile flight + time to adjust the sight and prepare for the shot . A Soviet cruiser, it turns out, can fire every 25-30 seconds, because its projectiles fly to the target of 20 seconds, and another 5-10 seconds is needed to correct the sight. Those. even if it is assumed that the practical rate of fire of the Maxim Gorky's guns is only 2 rds / min, then even then he will fire at volleys once every 30 sec, i.e. BETTER THE FIRST SIX-INSIDE British Cruiser!

But in fact, for the English ship is still worse - the Soviet cruiser can use such advanced methods of shooting as the "ledge" or "double ledge", giving two volleys (four and five-gun) or even three salvo (three-gun), without waiting for the previous volleys. Therefore, at a distance in 75 KBT (for the times of the Second World War - the distance of a decisive battle) and with equal preparation, one should expect that the Soviet cruiser will shoot much faster than English, while Belfast will spend far more shells than the Soviet cruiser.

The flaws in the organization of the shooting of the British six-inch cruisers "brilliantly" proved themselves during the fighting - to achieve a relatively small number of hits at large distances, the British had to spend an incredible amount of shells. For example, while leading a “New Year fight” with “Hipper” and “Lutzov”, the British shot about a thousand shells at these ships - 511 launched Sheffield, there is no data for “Jamaica”, but presumably about the same amount. However, the British achieved only three hits in the "Admiral Hipper", or some 0,3% of the total number of shots. An even more amazing battle took place on 28 on June 1940 G, when five British cruisers (including two “towns”) managed to go undetected on 85 KBT to three Italian destroyers. They were carrying some cargo, their decks were so overwhelmed that two destroyers could not use their torpedo tubes. The third destroyer, Espero, tried to cover up their own ... Two British cruisers shot at 18.33, 18.59 was joined by the other three, but the first hit was reached only at 19.20 at Espero, which caused him to lose speed. The Sydney was assigned to finish off the destroyer, four other cruisers continued to pursue the Italians. "Sydney" was able to sink the "Espero" only to 20.40, the rest of the cruisers stopped pursuing shortly after the 20.00, so the remaining two Italian destroyers escaped with a slight fright. The number of hits in the destroyers is unknown, but the British managed to shoot almost 5 000 (FIVE THOUSANDS) shells. Compare this with the shooting of the same “Prince Eugen”, which in a battle in the Danish Strait at 70-100 kbt released 157 203-mm projectiles and achieved 5 hits (3,18%)

So, by virtue of the foregoing, there is no reason to assume that in a duel against Belfast at a distance in 70-80 kbt, the Soviet cruiser would receive a significantly larger number of hits than he himself would inflict. But in a sea battle, it is important not only the quantity but also the quality of the hits, and in this parameter 50,8 kg of semi-armor of the British cruiser is much weaker than 97,5 kg of Maxim Gorky shells. At a distance of 75 KBT, the British 50,8 kg projectile will fall into vertical armor at a speed of 335 m / s, while the Soviet 97,5 kg will be reinforced combat (with an initial speed of 920 m / s) and 513 m / s, and combat (800 m / s s) - 448 m / s. The kinetic energy of the Soviet projectile will be 3,5-4,5 times higher! But the point is not only in it - the angle of incidence of an 180-mm projectile is 10,4 - 14,2 hail, while in English - 23,4 hail. The British six-inch, not only loses in the energy sector, but also falls at a less favorable angle.

Calculations of armor penetration (made by the author of this article) using Jacob-de-Mar’s formulas (recommended by A. Goncharov, “Naval tactics course. Artillery and armor” 1932 g) shows that the British projectile can penetrate only 61 mm of uncemented steel plate under such conditions, while the Soviet projectile (even with an initial speed of 800 m / s) is 167 mm cemented armor. These calculations are consistent with the data on armor penetration of Italian shells (cited earlier) and the German calculations of armor penetration of 203-mm guns of Admiral Hipper-type cruisers, according to which her projectile 122 kg projectile with an initial speed of 925 m / s. punched 200 mm armor plate at a distance of 84 KB. It must be said that the ballistics of the German SK C / 34 differs little from the Soviet B-1-P.

Thus, at a distance of a decisive battle, Belfast will not have a significant superiority in the number of hits, while the 70 mm stronghold of Maxim Gorky is sufficient protection against English projectiles, while the British 114 mm armor belt for Soviet guns is quite vulnerable. At great distances, the “British” has no chance at all to inflict any significant damage on Maxim Gorky, while the 97,5 kg shells of the latter, falling at a large angle, are likely to be able to overcome the Belfast’s 51 mm. The only place where the English cruiser can hope for success is the very short distances in 30, perhaps 40 KBT, where his semi-armor shells can penetrate the Soviet cruiser’s 70 mm vertical armor and, due to the higher rate of fire, he may be able to get the upper hand. But another thing should also be taken into account - in order to penetrate the Maxim Gorky’s defense, Belfast will have to shoot semi-armored projectiles containing only 1,7 kg of explosives, while the Soviet cruiser can use its semi-armored ones, which are capable of penetrating the English citadel at such a short distance, but they carry as much as 7 kg of explosives. So, in the short run, the victory of the British cruiser is not unconditional.

Of course, anything happens. For example, in the same “New Year's Fight” 152-mm British projectile hit the “Admiral Hipper” at the time when he made a U-turn and tilted, as a result of which the English “hotelie” hit the bronepoyas, led to the flooding of the boiler room and stopping turbines, why the speed of the German cruiser fell to 23 nodes. But, except for lucky accidents, it should be recognized that the Maxim Gorky-class cruiser was superior in its fighting qualities to the best English cruiser, Belfast. And not only in combat ...

Surprisingly, the Soviet ship had, perhaps, even better seaworthiness than the English: the height of the Maxim Gorky freeboard was 13,38 m against 9,32 m at Belfast. The same in terms of speed - on tests "Belfast" and "Edinburgh" developed 32,73-32,98 knots, but they showed this speed in the displacement corresponding to the standard, and under normal and, all the more, full load, their speed would, of course, be less . Soviet cruisers of the 26-bis project went to the measuring line not in the standard, but in the normal displacement, and developed 36,1-36,3 ties.

At the same time, the Belfast-type cruisers turned out to be significantly heavier than the Maxim Gorky - the standard displacement of the British reached the 10 550 t against the 8 177 t of the Soviet ship. The stability of the British was also not at the level - it came to the point that during the subsequent upgrades we had to add a meter of width! The cost of the English cruisers just went through the roof - they cost the Crown over 2,14 million f.st., i.e. even more expensive than heavy cruisers like "County" (1,97 million f.st.). However, "Kent" or "Norfolk" could fight on equal terms with "Maxim Gorky" (truly, it would have been a battle of "an egg-shell armed with hammers"), but this cannot be said about Belfast.

To be continued!
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  1. +2
    24 August 2016 15: 01
    I apologize, but did not read the article. I just wanted to make sure that it was written by Konstantin Sivkov. It turned out no.
    Wishes to the author, since there is not a single comment (and I did not read it): speculations and imitations of K. Sivkov are no longer in demand and are pretty tired. This is just speculation, not modeling. Modeling is an expensive process. Speculation, on the contrary, is cheap, but due to the fact that the author of speculation arbitrarily sets his conditions and assumptions (very often children's conditions and assumptions).
    1. +19
      24 August 2016 15: 16
      Quote: Vladimir Postnikov
      I apologize, but did not read the article.

      Then the point of commenting on it?
      Quote: Vladimir Postnikov
      since there are no comments

      There are no comments for a much more prosaic reason - the article just hit the main page, and not in the morning, as usual.
      Quote: Vladimir Postnikov
      speculation and imitation of K. Sivkov is no longer in demand and pretty tired. This is just speculation, not modeling.
      .
      Those. "I have not read, but I condemn." Thank you for your opinion, laughed heartily.
      1. +10
        24 August 2016 18: 25
        Well, I don’t know how anyone, but it was interesting to me to lament. Shooting at sea is a rather difficult task. what
      2. 0
        26 August 2016 01: 43
        I was wrong. I acknowledge and apologize. This is not K. Sivkov.
        In vain, of course, you used in the title his key word "against", which managed to set the teeth on edge. In my opinion, the word "comparison" should have been used, especially since this is a comparison. The comparison is not only relevant but also useful.
        I hope that you will understand me and forgive me.
    2. +1
      24 August 2016 18: 57
      In general, it can be stated that the seaworthiness and survivability of the Kirov and Maxim Gorky-type cruisers was quite at the level of the best foreign ships of the corresponding displacement.
      And why not vice versa interesting? Why are foreign ships at the level of ours?
      1. +13
        24 August 2016 19: 04
        Quote: Wend
        Why are foreign ships at the level of ours?

        Because at the time of their construction, the USSR Navy could not pretend to be a somewhat influential naval force - all the major naval powers had replenished their fleets with cruisers for a year (many put into operation several types), we were catching up and considered a reference they couldn’t.
        Well, not to be like the Georgian media? "Neither Napoleon, nor Hitler, nor we could defeat Russia ...."
        1. +1
          25 August 2016 09: 54
          Ok thanks hi
        2. 0
          28 August 2016 21: 13
          Andrei, you write very interesting articles, I have no right to advise you, but if you described the properties of armor, it would be very good. With respect.
    3. +2
      25 August 2016 07: 06
      Regarding quick-firing guns.
      In the 50s in the USSR, a universal 180-mm two-gun turret SM-48 was developed. The elevation angle of the gun was from −3 to +76 degrees, the inclined firing range was 36 km, the height reach was 23 km, the rate of fire was approximately 9-10 rounds per minute AT THE BARREL. Those. with a larger caliber and significantly better ballistic characteristics, Soviet guns had a rate of fire similar to the American Mk 16 guns that were on the Clevelands and Worcesters, which are usually praised as something fantastic. At the same time, the SM-48 guns had a significantly higher survivability than the guns of the cruiser "Kirov"
    4. 0
      25 August 2016 12: 33
      It doesn’t look like Sivkov at all. Sivkov has a bunch of logical errors and unfounded assumptions.
  2. +7
    24 August 2016 15: 08
    The arguments look quite convincing.
    Here's just a question: but in general, why have such fast and seaworthy cruisers in the Baltic and the Black Sea (in closed and limited water basins)? Who are they chasing there? What "sea trade" to break? Where will the British come from? So what's the point in comparing them?
    Maybe the Finns are right who made monitors for the Baltic? (the same trophy "Vyborg").
    Here in the front book yesterday, the next "Moremans" again blamed the Sevastopol-class aircraft as "armored barges". But IMHO is a very correct concept. It is these ships that are needed for operations in a mine-artillery position. And it is not at all necessary to achieve from them neither outstanding seaworthiness, nor speed, nor range. And just shooting with the whole board from the towers in one line and at the same height.
    Something like that.
    1. +4
      24 August 2016 15: 28
      Quote: AlexA
      The arguments look quite convincing.

      Thank you!
      Quote: AlexA
      Here's just a question: but in general, why have such fast and seaworthy cruisers in the Baltic and the Black Sea (in closed and limited water basins)? Who are they chasing there? What "sea trade" to break?

      In the Baltic - Swedes and Germans, there the turnover is extremely decent. At the World Cup - back in World War I, Turks were slaughtered, preventing them from being supplied with coal from Zonguldak and not pushing to supply the coastal flank of the army by sea. And, of course, they were afraid of entering the Italian Navy World Cup
      Quote: AlexA
      Where will the British come from? So what's the point of comparing them?

      In general - I compare our project 26 bis cruisers with the cruisers of the main naval powers, Belfast is simply the first. And where did the British come from ... in the Civil War they came from somewhere, right?
      Maybe the Finns are right who made monitors for the Baltic? (the same trophy "Vyborg").

      Well, a ship for naval combat is not intended at all.
      Quote: AlexA
      Here in the front book yesterday, the next "Moremans" again blamed the LC of the "Sevastopol" type

      They are in vain :) At one time, I here posted as many as 3 articles in defense of Sevastopol
      1. +3
        24 August 2016 18: 53
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        In the Baltic - Swedes and Germans, there the turnover is extremely decent. At the World Cup - back in World War I, Turks were slaughtered, preventing them from being supplied with coal from Zonguldak and not pushing to supply the coastal flank of the army by sea. And, of course, they were afraid of entering the Italian Navy World Cup

        PMSM, there was another more prosaic reason - the base. Alas. however, it was only possible to provide a full-fledged basing of the ship from EM and higher on the "old" theater of operations - the Baltic and the World Cup. In the same north, for several pre-war years, they managed to kill EMs so much that only a third of them were combat-ready (as Platonov wrote, EMs in the SF base could not always get even power from the shore).
        So they built ships "for growth", but based them in closed seas.
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        They are in vain :) At one time, I here posted as many as 3 articles in defense of Sevastopol

        He-he-he ... pomnitsa, there were discussions on Tsushima at one time "Sevastopol "the coolest"were the shortest way to the ban. For they were innumerable - in the archives of the old forum, half of the topics on WWI are devoted specifically to" Sevas. "UW. SDA even tried to prove that" seva "is not inferior to" queens " smile
        1. +3
          24 August 2016 19: 13
          Quote: Alexey RA
          PMSM, there was another more prosaic reason - the base. Alas. however, it was only possible to provide a full-fledged basing of the ship from EM and higher on the "old" theater of operations - the Baltic and the World Cup.

          This is without comment, it is as if by itself. But also, who knew that we would fight the next war in alliance with England, and the United States would drive the Lend-Lease through the north through the British? Without this after-knowledge of the great utility of the SF, you will not immediately guess. A few destroyers to drive the brutal Norwegians out of tervod, and that's enough.
          On the other hand, the North developed decently, in the same place they even tried to build battleships. But with pre-war bases - yes, our traditional weak link.
          Quote: Alexey RA
          Uv. The SDA even tried to prove that "seva" is not inferior to "queens".

          Nooo, I'm not up to such witchcraft laughing I say correctly - it’s too early for me to Tsushima laughing
          The defense of Sevastopol was not good, well, against the 305-mm German - still back and forth, but against everything that was thicker with a caliber-it was not good, although I also noted that because of the crappy quality of the British half-armor-piercing, Sevastopol had theoretical chances against the 343-mm super-dreadnought laughing
          Oh, they’ll ban me on Tsushima :)))
      2. +1
        24 August 2016 19: 29
        That's what I'm talking about. What kind of "sea battles" are there? The Germans did not keep any serious ships in the Baltic. And they hardly planned to transfer it along the Kiel Canal. They did not see tasks for them there. In terms of geography, it is quite reasonable before WWI in Russia to build a mine and artillery position in the Gulf of Finland. For battles on it, fast and seaworthy ships are not needed at all. In Russia, in fact, they built floating batteries - "Sevastopoli". You could, of course, better protect them with armor. And the Finns for similar conditions (only instead of mine cans they have skerries) built monitors. And logically, we had to develop this direction.
        After all, Hipper and Co. were built for raider operations in the Atlantic. Everything is clear there. And ships of the 26-bis type are not clear. Destroyers could well disrupt sea traffic in such enclosed basins.
        And in fact it happened. There were no "naval battles" in the Baltic. And on the Black Sea, the Germans did not have any warships other than high-speed landing barges. And the cruisers were used only for landing operations and fire support for the flanks of coastal armies. And the Baltic cruisers stood under a layer of coal like floating batteries. Again - what are 36 knots and 13,5 meters of board for?
        Here I am just about that. I agree with you that 26 bis turned out to be quite decent balanced cruisers. But why are they in the Baltic and in the Black Sea?

        And regarding the booking of "Sevastopol" I remember your notes. I saw similar pictures with perspectives of getting into different zones here. Got a question.
        Why do you analyze the vulnerability of a reservation only at viewing angles of 5 - 10 degrees? And why on all the ships after the PMV began to design guns with elevation angles of 35 - 40 degrees? Yes, and build a missile launcher for firing at 150 - 200 kbt? It was probably assumed that the battle would begin at these distances. And to the distance of "decisive battle" in 25 - 45 kbt, the ships simply will not come close. Someone get it.
        But at maximum distances when shooting, taking into account air resistance, the falling branch of the projectile trajectory will have a degree of incidence 10-15 degrees greater than the elevation angle. Consequently, the angle of the projectile with the target will be 45 - 60 degrees. Here booking a side is of very little importance, and it is necessary to analyze the booking of decks. And this is not at all in your articles.
        By the way, academician A.N. Krylov after the fight “Huda” with “Bismarck” in his article notes just getting into the Englishman from a great distance at an angle of 60 degrees (as I recall) and breaking through all decks to the cellars. The result is known.
        Here and booking "Iow" is seen in a different way. When firing at long distances, getting into their inclined internal armor belt is practically excluded. And the fragments (even outside, even inside), this belt will keep calm. So the main goal is achieved - the tightness of the side is not broken. And that means the ship is afloat. Suppose with a partial loss of speed (some commentators noted this as a lack of reservation for high-speed Americans). The rest is experienced.
        1. +2
          24 August 2016 20: 20
          Quote: AlexA
          That's what I'm talking about. What kind of "sea battles" are there? The Germans did not keep any serious ships in the Baltic

          So here it is impossible to confuse cause and effect. Thanks to the successes of the Wehrmacht, and the Finns who spoke on the side of Germany, we were blocked from leaving the Finnish - at least for surface ships. And if so, why should the Germans keep heavy ships in the Baltic? Now, if the KBF had access to the sea, then the Germans would have kept their heavy ships in the Baltic.
          As a result, the Germans carried all sorts of cargo from the Swedes throughout the war, and we could hardly object, because surface ships were ordered to go to sea. But who would know about such layouts in advance?
          Quote: AlexA
          According to geography, it is quite reasonable before the WWII in Russia to build a mine-artillery position in the Gulf of Finland. For fighting, it does not need high-speed and sailing ships. It was in Russia that they built a floating battery - Sevastopoli.

          Sevastopol was not built for MAP. And certainly they were not floating batteries :)
          Quote: AlexA
          Destroyers could well disrupt shipping in such enclosed basins.

          And to protect against them, only destroyers would be enough
          Quote: AlexA
          Why do you analyze the vulnerability of a reservation only at viewing angles of 5 - 10 degrees?

          Because there are very simple statistics - yes, WWII cruisers could fight at a distance of 115-120 kbt. But at the same time, they, shooting almost full ammunition, achieved the strength of several hits. Those. rely on the destruction of the enemy at such a distance could only be a miracle. But the distance of decisive battle, from where it was possible to provide a sufficient number of hits from the VMS from WWII, is 70-80 kbt, not more. But no less, therefore it is completely unclear why you are talking about 25-45 kbt.
          Do you think that the angles of incidence given by me are 25-45 kbt of range? This is not so - the angles of incidence are prescribed in the "General Firing Tables" for the same 180-mm gun - and at 75 kbt they are exactly the same 10,4-14,2 degrees I am writing about. And 23,4 degrees for the British projectile
          Quote: AlexA
          By the way, academician A.N. Krylov after the fight “Huda” with “Bismarck” in his article notes just getting into the Englishman from a great distance at an angle of 60 degrees (as I recall) and breaking through all decks to the cellars. The result is known.

          And according to the aggregate opinion of all subsequent analysts, the academician was categorically mistaken, because the angle of incidence of the German shell there did not lie close to 60 degrees. And he did not break through any decks.
          1. 0
            25 August 2016 14: 36
            Dear Andrew,
            You have written a very solid and balanced series of articles. There is something to ponder. Maybe - and discuss the common good. Respect. And it’s hard (and hardly worth it) to argue with your conclusions about evaluating the fighting qualities of 26bis cruisers. I don’t argue. I agree with you - good ships.
            But you did not convince me that ships of this type were needed in the Baltic and the Black Sea. And the actual nature of their use during WWII only as floating batteries was quite predictable. Including possible closure in the Gulf of Finland. But if only such use is needed, then some “redundant” properties may be. For the ship is a continuous chain of compromises (you yourself underline this many times). Both for speed and seaworthiness have to pay displacement and cost. To the detriment of other qualities. For example, armor protection and survivability. Or air defense. Yes, and there would be no need to refine with a common cradle for guns of the main caliber.
            Well, I got carried away in polemic frenzy. According to my arguments, the cruiser does not come out at all. And the monitor comes out. What I, in fact, already wrote about.
            If you build a cruiser, then, perhaps, for reasons of unification, as “qwert” suggests.
            In any case, I thank you for a decent job. And - new successes.
            1. 0
              26 August 2016 21: 17
              Thanks for the kind words! drinks
              And by the way - I just posted the next article in the series for moderation. On Monday, she’ll probably be on the main page. Come in, I will be glad to continue the conversation hi
        2. 0
          25 August 2016 19: 40
          Quote: AlexA
          By the way, academician A.N. Krylov after the fight “Huda” with “Bismarck” in his article notes just getting into the Englishman from a great distance at an angle of 60 degrees (as I recall) and breaking through all decks to the cellars. The result is known.

          "Hood" received a fatal hit from 16-17 km, the angle of incidence of 380mm of the "Bismarck" projectile at this distance is 13 degrees.
    2. 0
      24 August 2016 17: 32
      They would have a reservation, there would be no price ...
      1. 0
        24 August 2016 17: 38
        Quote: Borus017
        They would have a reservation, there would be no price ...

        Yes, with a reservation they could have been more serious. In principle, the one that was not so badly protected from 305 mm shells, but no more.
    3. +7
      24 August 2016 17: 38
      Regarding excessive seaworthiness, ships were used at the ocean theater. As a sailor, I think that claims for excessive seaworthiness are not substantiated.
      Speed? Quickly get close, strike and quickly leave ... Smakota. The British were considered the main opponents in the Baltic, and the Italians and French on the Black Sea both had enough good walkers, and in quantitative comparison we looked very pale. Hence, by the way, a fascination with the mosquito fleet and submarines. These cruisers are not raiders, but rather leaders. Hence the choice of the main caliber.
      Regarding the anti-aircraft caliber: industry and again industry (... there is no sadder story in the world ...), you just need to look at the state of affairs with MZA in the ground forces. In fact, before the 2nd World War, all Fleets had weak air defense, especially against dive-bombers.
      Itself in due time considered armor penetration, but for the ships of World War I and I agree with the author, not everything is so simple. The article is a solid plus, good, solid analysis.
      1. +3
        24 August 2016 17: 51
        Quote: Fotoceva62
        About excessive seaworthiness

        I apologize, with this new commenting system it’s completely unclear whether you are contacting me or someone else crying
        But still I will answer - I do not at all consider the cruisers of the project 26 and 26-bis too seaworthy. I don’t understand at all how a ship can be too seaworthy - not seaworthy enough, yes, there are a lot of such ships. Seaworthiness is a virtue. High board? But if it were not for it, "Kirov" after being detonated by a magnetic mine would have gone headlong under the water, and who knows what would have happened next? And so - he resisted, and dragged to the port.
        Quote: Fotoceva62
        The article is a solid plus, good, solid analysis.

        Thank you!
    4. 0
      25 August 2016 07: 09
      Quote: AlexA

      Maybe the Finns are right who made monitors for the Baltic? (the same trophy "Vyborg").
      .

      Eh, the armored cruiser Rurik II was cut in vain. There was a ship balanced for the Baltic
  3. +10
    24 August 2016 16: 17
    Someone like that, but I read the article with the greatest pleasure.
    I did not let the drool flow .... like a cat that is scratched under the chin.
    It is gratifying to think that our ships, even in theory, were in no way inferior to the "mistress of the seas."
    And in many ways they were superior.
    ...
    I will wait for more publications, Andrey.
    Respectfully......
    1. +5
      24 August 2016 17: 34
      Quote: Bashibuzuk
      Someone like that, but I read the article with the greatest pleasure.

      Thank! It is very pleasant that I am not writing in vain, and that this is interesting to someone.
      Quote: Bashibuzuk
      It is gratifying to think that our ships, at least theoretically, were in no way inferior to the "mistress of the seas"

      What's interesting is the way it is. Unfortunately, there is a certain problem in our historical literature: it seems that the authors consider themselves obliged to convey historical facts, but do not seek to express their own judgments, theories, unless they are 100500 times confirmed by factology. Apparently, in the scientific community this is considered unscientific. As a result, the books contain absolutely all the data in order to draw quite logical conclusions, but ... no one makes them.
      Quote: Bashibuzuk
      I will wait for more publications, Andrey

      And again, thanks. The next part should appear on the main one at the beginning of next week. hi Come in, I'll be glad :)
      Best regards,
      Andrei
    2. +2
      24 August 2016 19: 43
      Quote: Bashibuzuk

      5
      Bashibuzuk Today, 16: 17
      Someone like that, but I read the article with the greatest pleasure.
      I did not let the drool flow .... like a cat that is scratched under the chin.
      It is gratifying to think that our ships, even in theory, were in no way inferior to the "mistress of the seas."
      And in many ways they were superior.
      ...
      I will wait for more publications, Andrey.
      Respectfully......

      I completely agree with you, and Andrei plus for this article - we look forward to continuing.
      As for the good ships, we also had one of the best destroyers in the world at that time - very fast, with excellent guns and fire control devices.
      Although the main scourge of Soviet ships, and of all classes - terrible, criminally insufficient air defense. And if the Angry to the aircraft by and large do not give a damn and forget, then the cruiser for her is a very tasty morsel.
      And the statement made above about the weakness of the air defense of all fleets is also incorrect - the American school of shipbuilding was distinguished precisely by the "maximum set" of air defense weapons of all types of ships. Sincerely.
      1. +1
        25 August 2016 10: 28
        Quote: 11 black
        And the statement made above about the weakness of the air defense of all fleets is also incorrect - the American school of shipbuilding was distinguished precisely by the "maximum set" of air defense weapons of all types of ships. Sincerely.

        The "maximum set of air defense weapons" for US ships appeared only during the war and only from the end of 1942.

        Before the war, the Yankees had a huge failure in the MZA: heavy MZA 30-40 mm was not at all, and they brought the light 28-mm MZA to mind only in 1940 and produced a teaspoon per hour. As a result, even on large pots, we had to put 28 mm anti-aircraft guns in the nests of 76-mm machine guns.

        That is, the American pre-war ships had:
        - Theoretically good long-range air defense - 127/38, 127/25. "In theory"because in practice, judging by the report of the Enterprise commander about the battles at Solomon in August 1942, The POISO of the 127-mm all-rounders was buggy nipadezzi: when controlled from them, 127/38 were suitable for firing only at horizontal bombers marching at high altitude.
        The apparently unwieldy director firing system, augmented by numerous casualties which greatly slow the rate of fire, has made the 5-inch battery the least useful of the AA for all except high altitude horizontal bombing attacks.

        Moreover, in the same report, the commander complained that early detection of air targets is practically impossible (the radar does not even see optically observable targets), therefore, the POISO 127/38 does not have time to give out in advance the data for firing at targets most suitable for this caliber (dive players before entering the dive ) As a result, 127/38 open fire along with 20 mm.
        With manual guidance, horizontal and vertical gunners were often aimed at different targets. smile

        - On old LCs, small ships and auxiliary vehicles there are 76/50 times of WWI.

        - In the near zone, there is a full fifth point: either John Mosesovich's products, or the Oerlikons that have begun to arrive (with a series of which there is also a plug - the purchased technology is not suitable for the conveyor).
      2. +1
        25 August 2016 13: 45
        the American school before the war was not much different from the others - air defense was rather stingy. This situation changed dramatically already during the war - the Americans received and created some pretty successful artillery systems and began to hastily arm and upgrade their fleet.
        in fact, only 42 years old can talk about differences.
        1. 0
          25 August 2016 16: 34
          Let's just say - not "received", but "were able to rework CD and TD for the launch of serial production." Both "Erlikons" and "Bofors" were bought by the Yankees before they entered the war. And even their engineers took 1,5-2 years to turn the handmade masterpieces into mass-produced consumer goods without much reduction in quality.
          1. 0
            29 August 2016 10: 01
            the successful installation of a 37 mm beaufort was forcibly dismantled and confiscated from a Dutch merchant ship. And then in the United States and England began their production.
  4. +1
    24 August 2016 16: 18
    Thanks informatively, I read all the parts, I look forward to continuing!
    1. 0
      24 August 2016 17: 35
      You're welcome! hi
  5. exo
    +1
    24 August 2016 18: 19
    Thank you Andrey! I discovered a lot of new things.
    1. 0
      24 August 2016 18: 28
      You're welcome! I hope Monday will be continued drinks
  6. +3
    24 August 2016 18: 27
    Welcome namesake hi
    A good analytical article, and the whole cycle about pr.26 is excellent!
    Comparisons are understandable, explained intelligibly for those who want to understand.
    Maybe for many, these ships are flawed and weak due to established myths, but you have clearly explained for such comrades why this is not so. Objectively, without Kaptsov distortions and pathos.
    By the way. I hope readers will understand that a ship on paper and real performance characteristics in metal are different things. Therefore, many controversial things need to be balanced.
    You are a gorgeous plus! hi
    PS. It is always interesting to read adequate, analytical articles good
    1. +2
      24 August 2016 19: 23
      Quote: Rurikovich
      Welcome namesake

      And we wish you hello! drinks
      Quote: Rurikovich
      Maybe for many, these ships are flawed and weak due to established myths, but you have clearly explained for such comrades why this is not so.

      I really hope for it. This, of course, was the goal of this work, but the material for it was stored for a long time :) Everything as usual - first I wanted to figure out what was happening there, and then - there was a desire to talk about what I learned.
      Quote: Rurikovich
      By the way, I hope readers will understand that a ship on paper and real performance characteristics in metal are different things.

      I would very much like to, because "the devil is in the details." One can only regret that the search for these details itself is quite difficult. That's how much easier it would be if, for example, somewhere in the internet there were firing tables for all sea artillery systems ... a detailed layout on the device and schemes of operation of the launcher in general and the KDP in particular ... and with comments from the people who used them on duty ... and pills for greed, and more, more laughing
      Quote: Rurikovich
      You are a gorgeous plus!

      Thank you! drinks
    2. 0
      24 August 2016 19: 23
      Quote: Rurikovich
      Welcome namesake

      And we wish you hello! drinks
      Quote: Rurikovich
      Maybe for many, these ships are flawed and weak due to established myths, but you have clearly explained for such comrades why this is not so.

      I really hope for it. This, of course, was the goal of this work, but the material for it was stored for a long time :) Everything as usual - first I wanted to figure out what was happening there, and then - there was a desire to talk about what I learned.
      Quote: Rurikovich
      By the way, I hope readers will understand that a ship on paper and real performance characteristics in metal are different things.

      I would very much like to, because "the devil is in the details." One can only regret that the search for these details itself is quite difficult. That's how much easier it would be if, for example, somewhere in the internet there were firing tables for all sea artillery systems ... a detailed layout on the device and schemes of operation of the launcher in general and the KDP in particular ... and with comments from the people who used them on duty ... and pills for greed, and more, more laughing
      Quote: Rurikovich
      You are a gorgeous plus!

      Thank you! drinks
  7. +2
    24 August 2016 19: 00
    Colleague, respect and respect. Finally, I waited for a comparison with imported opponents. Great analysis.
    PS: regarding the fire control systems - in fact, the British took the lead after the mass introduction of artillery radars, as I understand it.
    1. +1
      24 August 2016 19: 31
      Greetings, colleague!
      Quote: doktorkurgan
      PS: regarding the fire control systems - in fact, the British took the lead after the mass introduction of artillery radars, as I understand it.

      Everything is very complicated here. Yes, they taught themselves the artradars ... but we too! On the same "Gorky" there was (as of 1944) - survey number 291, two fire control radars of the GK - number 284 and number 285, and 2 more radars for controlling the fire of anti-aircraft guns number 282.
      But on Kaganovich the radars for the Civil Code - Jupiter-1 (2 pcs) on Molotov - Mars-1 ...
    2. 0
      25 August 2016 13: 40
      They didn’t escape anywhere. The Russian Empire strangely managed to get almost all the new technologies in naval artillery obtained during the industrial breakthrough of Germany, supervised by Tirpitz, which technologically surpassed what England had and this advantage remained until the end of ww2.
      It is curious that the United States has arrogated to itself the results of the further development of this technology, both of which are German and Russian.
      Most of the pre-war American battleships already had gun systems created on the basis of the documentation transferred by Russia as part of completing the construction of a series of Izmail battleships.
      But the British did not ride away and continued to use outdated technologies (wire) and no radar could change this
      1. 0
        25 August 2016 16: 53
        Quote: yehat
        Most of the pre-war American battleships already had gun systems created on the basis of the documentation transferred by Russia as part of completing the construction of a series of Izmail battleships.

        Ahem ... actually, the documentation for the Ishmael guns was handed over to the British. Because the same 14 "/ 52 were ordered at Vickers - and only the British were able to make them in 1917. And 130/55 were also made at Vickers.

        The Americans moved away from the wire back in 1910 - by 12 "/ 50" Arkansas "and 14" / 45 "New York". Wire guns were ordered only by the army - for coastal defense.
        Quote: yehat
        But the British did not ride away and continued to use outdated technologies (wire) and no radar could change this

        What are you saying? Were the 14 "/ 45 Kings" wired?
        The British moved away from the wire in the mid-20s. The last wire guns were the 16 "/ 45" Rodneevs ".
        Limes even managed to rework the 8 "/ 50 design directly during production, abandoning the wire (the last 26 barrels).
        1. 0
          30 August 2016 13: 36
          Yes, somehow with the guns of the king I was not in the know.
          they were quite on the level.
          although, according to some articles, the British complained about the rapid wear of the trunks
  8. +2
    24 August 2016 19: 42
    Article plus clearly, we look forward to continuing, and the first comment on the article is not at all in the subject ...
    1. 0
      24 August 2016 20: 23
      Quote: faiver
      and the first comment on the article is not a topic at all ...

      I myself am terrified laughing
  9. +3
    24 August 2016 19: 45
    The topic is interesting, it is covered cool ... Many thanks to the author for the work ... I look forward to the next articles ... It is a pity, you can put only one plus ++++++ hi
  10. 0
    24 August 2016 21: 04
    Thanks yes article. It’s a pity that the Chapaevs didn’t finish the war: I think their 12 152 were more powerful than Kirov. 54 kg 950 m.s. By the way, the last time I asked about 12-inches. I found in nete that 853 m / s was the initial velocity of the SA guns with a shell weighing 447 kg with a charge of 160 kg. Their normal charge was Emnip 144 kg, and gunpowder of a different brand than in naval artillery.
    1. +1
      25 August 2016 10: 42
      Judging by Shirokorad, the normal charge for a 446-kg projectile of SA guns is 141,3 kg.
      For projectiles model 1911, a charge weighing 132 kg of brand 305/52 was adopted, Vo = 762 m / s, firing range of 23 228 m at an angle of + 25 ° and 28 715 m at an angle of + 40,5 °. For a high-explosive projectile mod. 1928 - a charge weighing 140 kg of the same brand, Vo = 950 m / s, range 34 m at an angle of + 019 ° and 25 m at an angle of + 44 °. For shrapnel, a charge weighing 079 kg, grade 40/100, Vo = 305 m / s, range 40 810,8 m at an angle of + 19 ° and 570 25 m at an angle of + 21 ° 948 '(tube limit).

      The 12 "/ 52 SA cannons originally had shells weighing 446,4 kg and a length of 4,4 clb. For them, charges weighing 141,3 kg of the B12 brand with Vo = 792,5 m / s were adopted. Model 1911 shells also had a 2,5% higher charge, Vo = 777,2 m / s, range 24 m at an angle of + 541 °. Journal of the Artillery Committee No. 25 of September 818, 26 was supposed to shoot from the SA cannon with MA cannon charges and artillery shells 1927 As for the shells weighing 1911 kg, the question remained open, but there were very few such shells in 446,4, and they were not produced henceforth.
    2. 0
      26 August 2016 19: 34
      Quote: Kurdyukov
      Thanks yes article. It’s a pity that the Chapaevs didn’t finish the war: I think their 12 152 were more powerful than Kirov. 54 kg 950 m.s. By the way, the last time I asked about 12-inches. I found in nete that 853 m / s was the initial velocity of the SA guns with a shell weighing 447 kg with a charge of 160 kg. Their normal charge was Emnip 144 kg, and gunpowder of a different brand than in naval artillery.

      I agree to all 100 - sorry this is not the right word! Chapaev can rightfully be called the best light cruiser of the USSR, and he certainly was not inferior to his overseas counterpart Cleveland. And by the way, I spoke above about the air defense of Soviet ships - it is the 68-k project in this regard that is armed very, very worthy.

      PS And a little more about the Chapaevs Yes
  11. +1
    25 August 2016 06: 30
    Quote: AlexA
    What kind of "sea battles" are there? The Germans did not keep any serious ships in the Baltic. And they hardly planned to transfer it along the Kiel Canal. ...

    Alexei, what kind of German ships could you talk about in the early 30's? Germany barely found money for the contribution! Until the 39 year, the Germans were practically not considered enemies as enemies. And pr.26 was built just with an eye on the owner of the seas. As far as I remember, at the Black Sea Fleet even a combined attack on the Anglo-French fleet was considered when the latter left the Bosphorus.
  12. +2
    25 August 2016 06: 55
    Andrey, welcome! hi ... I agree with "Rurikovich", the historical plot based on a detailed analysis is very informative! After all, who only and as soon as not wrote about these cruisers! Your articles doom many myths about them to oblivion. Cruisers pr. 26 and 26 bis have faithfully served their Motherland for more than 30 years!
    August 1947, Cruiser Molotov. I. S. Yumashev, A. N. Kosygin, I. V. Stalin, A. N. Poskrebyshev and Admiral F. S. Oktyabrsky
    1. 0
      25 August 2016 10: 32
      Greetings, Sergey! drinks
      Quote: Serg65
      Your articles doom many myths about them to oblivion. The cruisers, pr. 26 and 26 bis, have served the Motherland faithfully for more than 30 years!

      Thank you!
      And the photo is gorgeous, special thanks also for him
  13. +1
    25 August 2016 07: 13
    Quote: AlexA
    Here's just a question: but in general, why have such fast and seaworthy cruisers in the Baltic and the Black Sea (in closed and limited water basins)? Who are they chasing there? What "sea trade" to break?

    Well, what is the point for the Pacific Ocean and the Northern Fleet to develop one project, and for the seas another?
    The series was laid such that along the way they planned in-line, almost large-scale production. This is a reduction in cost, improving quality. And besides, the possibility of maneuvering forces while maintaining the same type of ship in squadrons. There were no problems transferring from the Baltic to the SF or from the World Cup to the Pacific.
  14. +1
    25 August 2016 10: 33
    The article is a big plus. We are waiting for the continuation and release of the magazine version in the "Marine collection" or "Marine campaign". A couple of photos from the St. Petersburg Museum:
  15. +2
    25 August 2016 10: 37
    For some reason, only one photo is inserted. This update is somehow not to my liking. The photo above shows the model of "Lazar Kaganovich". It looks like it's completely chrome-plated and my phone (Camera is dead) couldn't focus. The next photo shows the model of "Kirov"
  16. +1
    25 August 2016 10: 39
    And now - "Kirov" in the course of post-war modernization
  17. +1
    25 August 2016 10: 39
    Well, and "Maxim Gorky":
  18. +1
    25 August 2016 10: 41
    AAAA ....! Psya krev! Now for sure "Maxim Gorky"
  19. 0
    25 August 2016 11: 09
    Quote: Alexey RA
    Judging by Shirokorad, the normal charge for a 446-kg projectile of SA guns is 141,3 kg.
    For projectiles model 1911, a charge weighing 132 kg of brand 305/52 was adopted, Vo = 762 m / s, firing range of 23 228 m at an angle of + 25 ° and 28 715 m at an angle of + 40,5 °. For a high-explosive projectile mod. 1928 - a charge weighing 140 kg of the same brand, Vo = 950 m / s, range 34 m at an angle of + 019 ° and 25 m at an angle of + 44 °. For shrapnel, a charge weighing 079 kg, grade 40/100, Vo = 305 m / s, range 40 810,8 m at an angle of + 19 ° and 570 25 m at an angle of + 21 ° 948 '(tube limit).

    The 12 "/ 52 SA cannons originally had shells weighing 446,4 kg and a length of 4,4 clb. For them, charges weighing 141,3 kg of the B12 brand with Vo = 792,5 m / s were adopted. Model 1911 shells also had a 2,5% higher charge, Vo = 777,2 m / s, range 24 m at an angle of + 541 °. Journal of the Artillery Committee No. 25 of September 818, 26 was supposed to shoot from the SA cannon with MA cannon charges and artillery shells 1927 As for the shells weighing 1911 kg, the question remained open, but there were very few such shells in 446,4, and they were not produced henceforth.

    I cited data from the journal Technics and armament 1997 number 3 a little mistaken charge weight reinforced 156 kg. In the USSR, data were presented for the cannons of Sevastopol mine 823 m / s. This is most likely also for an enhanced charge. Shirokorad has many book-to-book compilations, and the data are not credible. In the 80s, the data cited others for many tools.
  20. 0
    25 August 2016 11: 10
    Quote: Alexey RA
    Judging by Shirokorad, the normal charge for a 446-kg projectile of SA guns is 141,3 kg.
    For projectiles model 1911, a charge weighing 132 kg of brand 305/52 was adopted, Vo = 762 m / s, firing range of 23 228 m at an angle of + 25 ° and 28 715 m at an angle of + 40,5 °. For a high-explosive projectile mod. 1928 - a charge weighing 140 kg of the same brand, Vo = 950 m / s, range 34 m at an angle of + 019 ° and 25 m at an angle of + 44 °. For shrapnel, a charge weighing 079 kg, grade 40/100, Vo = 305 m / s, range 40 810,8 m at an angle of + 19 ° and 570 25 m at an angle of + 21 ° 948 '(tube limit).

    The 12 "/ 52 SA cannons originally had shells weighing 446,4 kg and a length of 4,4 clb. For them, charges weighing 141,3 kg of the B12 brand with Vo = 792,5 m / s were adopted. Model 1911 shells also had a 2,5% higher charge, Vo = 777,2 m / s, range 24 m at an angle of + 541 °. Journal of the Artillery Committee No. 25 of September 818, 26 was supposed to shoot from the SA cannon with MA cannon charges and artillery shells 1927 As for the shells weighing 1911 kg, the question remained open, but there were very few such shells in 446,4, and they were not produced henceforth.

    I cited data from the journal Technics and armament 1997 number 3 a little mistaken charge weight reinforced 156 kg. In the USSR, data were presented for the cannons of Sevastopol mine 823 m / s. This is most likely also for an enhanced charge. Shirokorad has many book-to-book compilations, and the data are not credible. In the 80s, the data cited others for many tools.
  21. +1
    25 August 2016 11: 51
    Andrei, I read with interest, although he himself is not naval. I especially liked the analysis of rate of fire. Yeah, how much should be taken into account. In general, it is interesting not even to a specialist. Thank.
  22. +1
    25 August 2016 12: 42
    Well, colleague, as always I read with pleasure. One of the few examples when they think over "plates" of performance characteristics and do not compare "in Excel" ... And I completely agree with your conclusions, "no counties", "no cities" in a real duel situation could not form a serious opposition to the "Kirovs" ... Alas, the balance of forces (in terms of the number of keels) left little hope for this option ... I would still compare with the Germans - especially since it actually was a real opportunity to collide in the Baltic ...
  23. 0
    25 August 2016 12: 47
    the author is not objective in some places.
    for example, there is an episode of shelling of the coastal battery at Hanko, where there are questions to the accuracy of the MG cruiser
    as well as security.
    secondly, the article itself resembles Bodalovo ala t34 against PzIV
    although the tactics of using cruisers are clearly wider and it is precisely their effectiveness that needs to be compared.
    1. +1
      25 August 2016 13: 34
      Quote: yehat
      for example, there is an episode of shelling of the coastal battery at Hanko, where there are questions to the accuracy of the MG cruiser
      as well as security.

      Hmm ... is this you, for an hour, not the famous battle of "Kirov" with the Russare battery do you mean? Because MG entered the fleet only on 12.12.1940/XNUMX/XNUMX.

      So there are no questions about the security of pr.26 - on this battery there were six 9.2 "guns 234/50 BS of the American firm Bethlehem Steel (" Chilean order "). The projectile is 172 kg. The muzzle velocity is 811-846 m / s." Only a battleship can be protected from such shells.

      And there are no questions about the accuracy of the Kirov either: the only information from the intelligence was that perhaps there is some kind of battery on the island.
      At 21.20 B.P. Ptokhov received an order from the Military Council of the KBF, which confirmed his previous missions, and also contained an order to "fire at the battery about. Russare ". No specific clarifications regarding the purpose of this operation were received from the KBF headquarters. Intending to shell the Finnish battery, the fleet command did not have accurate information about its location and composition, as well as about the presence of minefields on the approaches to the island.

      Actually, "Kirov" was sent precisely to confirm or deny these data. Without any information about the battery, the KRL was physically unable to conduct accurate fire.

      By the way, "Kirov" was very lucky in that battle. If the Finns had delayed a little with the opening of fire, then our KRL would have flown right into the minefield. And so he was forced to turn away.
      Having approached the Rusare island at a distance of 110 kb, the cruiser lay down on a combat course of 240 °, which, as it turned out after the war, led directly to the minefield. At 10.55, the 234-mm battery of the island opened fire on Soviet ships. Given the order is not under fire, the OLS commander, who was holding the flag on Kirov, ordered to increase the speed to 24 knots and lie down on a 210 ° course, turning right side to Russare. This saved the ship, otherwise it would have ended up on land mines.
  24. 0
    25 August 2016 13: 42
    I read the data for the 12-inch SA in the magazine Tech and weapons 1997-3. It shows the charges, speeds and firing range for different shells like Shirokorad. For the projectile SA 446,7 kg, the charge of gunpowder of the B12 grade is 156 kg, the initial velocity is 853 m / s. The charge is probably intensely combat. In the 80s, data were presented for the Sevastopol guns 823 or 835 m / s I no longer remember for sure, probably also with an increased charge. Shirokorad has many inaccuracies, and the myth of the poor quality of Obukhov steel went similarly from him.
  25. 0
    25 August 2016 13: 43
    I read the data for the 12-inch SA in the magazine Tech and weapons 1997-3. It shows the charges, speeds and firing range for different shells like Shirokorad. For the projectile SA 446,7 kg, the charge of gunpowder of the B12 grade is 156 kg, the initial velocity is 853 m / s. The charge is probably intensely combat. In the 80s, data were presented for the Sevastopol guns 823 or 835 m / s I no longer remember for sure, probably also with an increased charge. Shirokorad has many inaccuracies, and the myth of the poor quality of Obukhov steel went similarly from him.
  26. The comment was deleted.
  27. +1
    26 August 2016 05: 26
    waging a “New Year’s fight” with “Hipper” and “Luttsov,” the British shot about a thousand shells at these ships - 511 launched Sheffield, there are no data on the Jamaica, but, presumably, about the same amount. However, the British achieved only three hits in the “Admiral Hipper”, or some 0,3% of the total number of shots

    If I may, a few remarks, dear colleague. Most likely, Sheffield fired 511 shells during the entire battle in the Barents Sea, including the episode with the sinking of the destroyer Friedrich Eckoldt. As for the accuracy of the British, it is best to turn to the facts. Both light cruisers opened fire at 11:35 am, and at 11:37 am the Admiral Hipper received its second round. This means that in two minutes the “British” managed to shoot and hit at least twice, and how many shells could they theoretically have fired during this time? Fifty, sixty? After which the "German" simply "made his legs."

    At just that moment a forest of shells towered over Hipper. Her captain and Kummetz were stunned. An emergency turn to starboard was ordered, which threw the Hipper in a sharp heel to port. A 6 ”shell then crashed into No. 3 boiler room, temporarily cutting the cruiser's speed to 15 kn. By 1137 Hipper had been hit again, and a message from the high command, “no necessary risk”, confirmed Kummetz's decision to break off action.
    http://www.seekrieg.com/BattleOfTheBarentsSea.pdf
    1. 0
      26 August 2016 08: 11
      Quote: Comrade
      If I may, a few remarks, dear colleague.

      Of course!:) drinks
      Quote: Comrade
      Most likely, Sheffield fired 511 shells during the entire battle in the Barents Sea, including the episode with the sinking of the destroyer Friedrich Eckoldt.

      No way - there are data on the expenditure of Sheffield shells, for the entire time of the battle he spent 583 shells. Accordingly, 12 six-gun salvos take 72 shells out of this number, 511 remain.
      Quote: Comrade
      This means that in two minutes the “British” managed to shoot and hit at least twice, and how many shells could they theoretically have fired during this time? Fifty, sixty? After which the "German" simply "made his legs."

      Right! But the battle didn’t end there :)
  28. 0
    27 August 2016 01: 06
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Sheffield shells consumption data is there, for the entire time of the battle he used up 583 shells

    Thank you, I didn’t.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    But the battle didn’t end there.

    This is true, but despite a diligent search, I have not been able to find information or even mentions of other fire contacts between Sheffield and Jamaica on the one hand, and Admiral Hipper on the other.
  29. +1
    29 August 2016 02: 37
    The shortcomings in the organization of the shooting of the British six-inch cruisers "brilliantly" showed themselves during the fighting - to achieve a relatively small number of hits at long distances, the British had to spend an amazing amount of shells

    Everything is relative and not so simple. Recall the battle at La Plata, two British light cruisers, Ajax and Achilles, fired 2 main-caliber shells at the Admiral Graf Spee, achieving eighteen hits. This number corresponds to 077% of hits, compare this figure with that of the heavy cruiser "Admiral Hipper" in the battle in the Barents Sea. If I'm not mistaken, there were no hits at all? Or the same "Admiral Graf Spee", which fired three hundred seventy seven 0,86 mm shells in the already mentioned battle at La Plata. As you know, not a single hit on any of the British cruisers.
    By the way, I came across an interesting photo. The picture shows the charred guns of the cruiser "Achilles" after the battle at La Plata.
    1. 0
      29 August 2016 12: 34
      Valentine, is that you? :) I welcome categorically! drinks
      Quote: Comrade
      Recall the battle at La Plata, two British light cruisers, Ajax and Achilles, fired 2 main-caliber rounds at the Admiral Graf Spee, achieving eighteen hits.

      This, of course, is true, but there is a nuance - the British started the fight at 90 kb, quickly approached 65 kb and the smallest distance in the battle was at all 40 kb, and they acted on a clear day.
      Quote: Comrade
      let's compare this figure with that of the heavy cruiser "Admiral Hipper" in the battle in the Barents Sea. If I'm not mistaken, there were no hits at all?

      There are a couple of nuances -
      1) as far as I know, combat training in Norway among the Germans was lame on all four legs.
      2) Hipper lost his artradar to a duel with cruisers
      3) Because of poor visibility, he fired back only 20 shells (according to Kofman) at British cruisers.
      And so - he had hits, in "Bramble" - 2 pieces and in Onslow - 4 pieces. Hipper fired at Ekates at a distance of 60-90 kbt, used up 90 rounds and hit 1 time.
      Quote: Comrade
      Or the same "Admiral Graf Spee", which fired three hundred seventy seven 150 mm shells in the already mentioned battle at La Plata. As you know, not a single hit on any of the British cruisers.

      Which is not surprising - for the 150-mm artillery, the pocket battleship did not even have a permanent fire control post. And the main ones in that battle worked on 280-mm turrets. In general, 150-mm guns were fired according to the Varyag method, after Nirod was killed.
      Quote: Comrade
      This is true, but despite a diligent search, I have not been able to find information or even mention of other firing contacts between Sheffield and Jamaica on the one hand, and Admiral Hipper on the other.

      I apologize for the incorrect wording - I meant that after the shelling of Hipper, the British fought with Lyuttsov. But in general, Patyanin ("The pride of the British fleet is light cruisers of the town type") for some reason writes about the second round of Hipper's battle with British cruisers (but Kofman did not)
      hi
  30. 0
    29 August 2016 10: 51
    First, a few points that frankly amused:
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    "Maxim Gorky" vs. "Belfast"

    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    The light cruiser is long, but relatively small in width, and its vehicles must be very powerful in order to provide excellent speed.

    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    they needed more powerful power plants than before. And while the same British cruisers used to completely manage with a pair of turbine units working on two shafts, now they began to install 4 cars on them, driving 4 screws.

    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    the French shipbuilding school was distinguished by the unique quality of theoretical drawings for its ships, no one in the world could argue with the French, and this provided them with maximum speed with a minimum of machine power.

    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    All this together provided the Project 26 and 26 bis cruisers with excellent seaworthiness and survivability.

    Well, that's enough. The comment box is not rubber.
    Who did not understand:
    1. Where would this Gorky Max look for that Belfast? It would be easy to make a comparison with the Orkelian cruiser. On the subject, which is cooler. All the same, they will not meet. They had different habitats.
    2. The indicator L / B, this, of course, is very interesting. But the speed indicators of any waterfowl trough, except for the power of cars, are also characterized by an indicator of the completeness of the hull. Block coefficient, if in a Glitzky. And L / B, an indicator that is certainly important and interesting. But from another opera, mostly. It also affects the block coefficient, but indirectly.
    3. The author in vain assumes that the British, unlike the Italians, were not available powerful cars. There were. But they did 4 to improve the survivability of ships. There were no more reasons to make four-shaft ships, otherwise they lost to the two-shaft two-machine scheme.
    4. I can remind the Russian DBK Bayan of French manufacture of the beginning of the 20th century. with his crooked drawing. True, by the 30s since then much water has flowed.
    5. And here we come back just to the L / B indicator and the machine diagram. And we are surprised to learn that just the seaworthiness and survivability of the ships (I will not call them cruisers) of these projects was not very good.
    Well, with the article is enough. We wish the author to improve in this topic.
    What were the ships of project 26 and 26 bis?
    Here it is necessary to return to the Italians and their light cruisers Duca d'Aosta and Eugenio di Svoia. Of which Kirov and Gorky were remade.
    1. 0
      29 August 2016 11: 11
      What did the Italians from Ansaldo do? Huge destroyer leaders (figuratively speaking), who also have a lot of generic features of the KRL. Such, a kind of hybrids. And since they were made exclusively for the seas, then L / B was done more, like with destroyers. These hybrids, due to their unimportant seaworthiness, were not desirable to meet with the ocean wave.
      To achieve a large maximum speed, the completeness (and dimension) of the hull was adopted not cruising, but distroier. With all the ensuing troubles.
      First of all, unimportant seaworthiness (this was compensated by the limited use of these ships) and unhealthy gluttony (this was partially offset by a two-shaft scheme, but to the detriment of the survivability of the ships). The Italians made only two such ships. Then they sort of changed their minds, expensive.
      Why the USSR bought the drawings of these strange ships, I do not know. I think because of the inappropriate slogan "faster, higher, stronger" in this case. I liked the speed of the data of the Italian KRL. And due to what, and everything happens due to something, they did not bother with it. The USSR never planned to fight economically at all. There was no such topic. Moreover, somehow mostly never.
      What did the USSR get as a result after building its "modernized" ships?
      First of all, the ships have definitely ceased to be "light cruisers for enclosed waters (seas)", as the Italians used to be. Those. on a combination of factors, they did not pull this category in any way. Because these were other ships. What kind?
      Hard to tell. But it would be more correct to call them "huge armored high-speed seaworthy gunboats." Well, something like this.
      Why gunboats and not cruisers? So cruisers tend to cruise. Those. act slightly autonomously from their bases. And Soviet products could not fully cruise. Because as a result of "domestic redesign and construction", in order to remain in a combat-ready state, these ships had very little fuel left. And the real range of their action in a combat-ready state was about 1100-2100 nautical miles, depending on the specific product. Those. clearly did not pull on a full-fledged cruising.
      To this we must add the extremely stripped-down ammunition of these Soviet ships. So replenish it in the conduct of hostilities would have to often.
      But let's not find fault with it, for the Baltic and the World Cup this was most likely enough. Therefore, we will call these ships "cruisers of the Baltic and Black Seas." Such a completely separate category. Apparently it is necessary to add also "welterweight".
      What were these ships typical for?
      High cost.
      It was expensive to go to them, such were the contours and dimensions of their hulls laid down by the Italians. And the two-shaft scheme here helped only partially.
      1. 0
        29 August 2016 11: 21
        It was not expensive to shoot from the main guns, but very expensive. After all, the main barrel resource was only 320 shots. And these are not only the features of these tools. It's just that in the USSR, they "knew how to make" sea guns. About 450 resource shots per main battery barrel, back in the middle of the 20th century. in the USSR this was the norm. But "the cannons were remarkable and of the most advanced designs," any user of the Russian Internet knows this.
        But the British, who "used sloppy technologies" (again, information known to all from the Russian Internet) used 6 "/ 50 BL Mark XXIII cannons as main guns in Belfast. They had 1100 rounds per barrel. Feel the difference.
        What can be said about this series as a whole? Most likely nothing good.
        As leaders of the destroyers, they were no good at all. And above all, because of the cost of operation.
        As air defense cruisers, they were no good either. And above all, because of the dubious presence of this very air defense, which was largely nominal.
        As floating batteries, their use was also very expensive. Although just like that, they were mainly used during WWII.
        Theoretically, they could successfully withstand enemy KRL in the Baltic and Black Seas. And even in Okhotsk and Japanese. But where is the guarantee that the enemy is a goof and would not send at least a couple of TKR? At the same time, they could completely screw from TKR. But was it worth the dubious happiness to pay money? An empty place and screwing would not have to.
        Everything, I did not find another scope. Only the impossibility for the enemy to send single or paired KRL to the Baltic Sea or to the World Cup. Moreover, the KRL detachment (pieces 4) or TKR, accompanied by the KRL, he could send completely.
        Further on the comprehensive attractiveness of the ships of the project 26 and 26 bis, this is to Andrei from Chelyabinsk.
        In the end, I was amused by this:
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        under such conditions, the British shell will be able to penetrate only 61 mm plate of cementless steel, while the Soviet shell (even with an initial speed of 800 m / s) - 167 mm of cemented armor

        If you just insert the author's sources into the formula, then we get about 120 mm of cemented armor (type II group, K = 2400) for Soviet shells and about 76 mm of very good homogeneity (K = 1950) for British shells. Average and poor have even greater penetration thickness. There can be no mistake, it's just mathematics. But the numbers no longer converge, and in an "interesting way".
        And this is without checking the source. And what will happen if we also count them? Although, of course, the British 152-mm shell could not reach the Soviet 180-mm shell, and even nearby, this is a fact.
        1. +1
          29 August 2016 13: 06
          It makes no sense to analyze your comments in detail - almost all the questions have answers in my article series. I note only the main mistakes
          Quote: rjxtufh
          Italians made only 2 such ships.

          Raimondo Montecuccoli - 2 pieces + Eugenio di Savoia - 2 pieces = 2 pieces? The math is entertaining, especially since "Garibaldi" essentially continued the same concept
          Quote: rjxtufh
          These hybrids, due to their unimportant seaworthiness, were not desirable to meet with the ocean wave.

          And the Soviet cruisers felt quite confident in the 8-10 point storm and even in the typhoon. What then are your conclusions?
          Quote: rjxtufh
          Why gunboats, not cruisers? So cruisers tend to cruise.

          We study why the USSR cruiser was needed. The first article in the series describes, by the way.
          Quote: rjxtufh
          And the real range of their action in a combat-ready state was about 1100-2100 nautical miles

          Share the source of such revelations?
          Quote: rjxtufh
          If we simply paste the author’s source code into the formula, we get about 120 mm of cemented armor (type II krupp, K = 2400) from Soviet shells and about 76 mm of very good homogen (K = 1950) from British shells.

          I do not know what formula you use, for there are many, but I SPECIALLY cited his source - Goncharov, "Course of naval artillery", 1932
          Quote: rjxtufh
          And this is without checking the source. And what will happen if we also count them?

          Recalculate the "General shooting tables" which were REALLY fired by the Soviet gunners and which were formed based on the results of practical shooting? :)))) Yes, you cannot refuse modesty laughing
          1. 0
            29 August 2016 15: 05
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Raimondo Montecuccoli - 2 pieces + Eugenio di Savoy - 2 pieces = 2 pieces?

            You are a great master of juggling.
            We were talking about project 26 and 26bis cruisers. All of them (including 2 Italians such as Duc d "Aosta) were made on the basis of one theoretical drawing. And then out of nowhere were added 2 Raimondo Montecuccoli. They were also made according to the same drawing? And besides, nothing that their built up to 2 Dyukov d "Aosta?
            By the way, Raimondo Montecuccoli do not look as extreme as Duques d "Aosta. These 2, this is something like the apotheosis of the concept.
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            especially considering the fact that "Garibaldi" essentially continued the same concept

            Examine the fullness factor of the housing. I highly recommend you. Come far in understanding the essence of things. The true purpose of almost any ship will open to you easily and simply. Actually, the fullness of the hull, this is the purpose of the ship, only expressed in numbers.
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            And the Soviet cruisers felt quite confident in the 8-10 point storm and even in the typhoon.

            Did you come up with this yourself? Ok, how is that? Immediately did not drown?
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            We study why the USSR cruiser was needed. The first article in the series describes, by the way.

            I will get acquainted somehow at my leisure. Probably.
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Share the source of such revelations?

            Explain in detail for a long time. And briefly, I'm afraid you won’t understand. You may not believe it, I do not insist. But I tried to carry out the calculations as accurately as possible. At the same time, the calculation method is a completely obvious thing. You just need to understand where to look and what data to consider. Those. not trivial flutter on top.
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            I do not know what formula you use, for there are many of them?

            No, the formula for armor penetration de Marre is one. You just didn’t consider it yourself, so you copied it from somewhere. And the data turned out to be incorrect. In the internet, this happens all the time.
            Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
            Recalculate the "General shooting tables" which were REALLY fired by the Soviet gunners and which were formed based on the results of practical shooting? :)))) Yes, you cannot refuse modesty

            In fact, nothing is impossible, everyone has computers at hand, tea with the bills done away for a long time. You just need to know the exact source, but I do not have them. Therefore, I didn’t count it, I took your data on speeds, calibers, weights (this is easier) and angles.
            It would be possible to count approximately, a few millimeters in one direction or another, the weather would not have been done, but why?
            1. 0
              29 August 2016 20: 41
              Quote: rjxtufh
              The true purpose of almost any ship will open to you easily and simply. Actually, the fullness of the hull, this is the purpose of the ship, only expressed in numbers.

              What, another attack of genius tortured? laughing
              Now, after all, you’ll run to the blacklist anyway, as usual.
              Quote: rjxtufh
              Did you come up with this yourself? Ok, how is that? Immediately did not drown?

              No, it’s written in all 26 and 26 bis sources
              The Kirov cruiser without problems kept 24 knots against the wave in a 10-point storm; Petropavlovsk (formerly Lazar Kaganovich) passed a typhoon in the Sea of ​​Okhotsk.

              But where do you read the sources, if you need to come up with another classification :)
              Quote: rjxtufh
              Explain in detail for a long time. And briefly, I'm afraid you won’t understand

              T e again your own pseudoscientific fantasies
              Quote: rjxtufh
              No, the formula for armor penetration de Marre is one. You just didn’t consider it yourself, so you copied it from somewhere.

              Yeah :))) Here it is, the formula
  31. 0
    29 August 2016 21: 18
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    What, another attack of genius tortured?

    The fact that you do not understand basic things is not my problem. I gave you advice, and then decide for yourself what to do. It would be better to listen, of course. It’s better for you, I don’t care.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Now, after all, you’ll run away to the blacklist

    I don’t remember that exciting moment when I switched to “you” with you. Try to be polite. Here's how I, for example.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    No, it’s written in all 26 and 26 bis sources

    Whoo-hoo-hoo. And what is only in these "sources" is not written. Even the fact that the planet is ruled by reptilians is written. And even a bunch of films on this topic.
    Believe in reptilians? Or all that is written?
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    But where do you read the sources

    For the second time I want to inform you that it is correct to behave politely. I am sorry that in this regard I am forced to perform the functions of your parents.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    T e again your own pseudoscientific fantasies

    I have never "suffered" from this. But there is no particular desire to grovel in front of a rude opponent (you have 2 warnings, remember, right?). Yes, and there is nothing to explain, it is still clear even from the most accessible sources. You just need to understand what and where to look, what and where to subtract. That's all.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Yeah :))) Here it is, the formula

    Congratulation. You see, now you also know what de Marre's formula looks like. Insert numbers and count yourself. True, you need to know mathematics here. But I strongly assume that you know her. Evaluated what I "make advances" to you?
    1. 0
      30 August 2016 22: 28
      I never thought that I would have to thank you, but come on. After checking the Eksell's arssages, I found an error - b should be in the 0,7 power, and I have 0,5. Accordingly, the penetration of the projectile with an initial speed of 800 m / s is not 167 mm, as in the article, but only 145 mm. And now I understand your 120 mm - you take K equal to 2400, but you need 2134 for "cap" shells
      1. 0
        30 August 2016 23: 57
        Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
        you take K equal to 2400, but you need 2134 for "cap" shells

        I see you persist in your rudeness. You can’t continue, I already understood who I’m dealing with.
        As for the armor. Coeff. To the order of 2150 has cemented armor Krupp type I (chromium-nickel). Everyone had already forgotten about it by 1MB. Therefore, the calculations must be carried out from the calculation of the cemented armor of Krupp type II (chromium-nickel-molybdenum). Her K ~ 2400.
  32. 0
    30 August 2016 05: 37
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Valentine, is that you? :) I welcome categorically!

    Always at your service, dear colleague.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    there is a nuance - the British started a fight at 90 kbt, quickly got close to 65 kbt and the smallest distance in battle was 40 kbt at all,

    Your humble servant is not strong in the battles of the Second World War, and even more so in cruising fights, all the more so I can’t say anything right away about the distances and shooting conditions, and there’s no time to search specifically now. Still, I’ll venture to express my opinion - statistics say that not everything is so simple, and hardly all the problems of the British in the accuracy of shooting from 152 mm guns are the result of some technical flaws organically inherent in their ships.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Patyanin ("The pride of the British fleet is light cruisers of the town type") for some reason writes about the second round of Hipper's battle with British cruisers (but Kofman did not)

    Not being lazy and not sparing time, I looked through several dozen foreign sources, including a German monograph dedicated to the "Hipper", did not find anything about other collisions of this cruiser with English light cruisers. Of course, the last word here is the reports of the commanders of the aforementioned ships, but they are not publicly available. Therefore, assuming that there were no other firing contacts between these three ships, the accuracy of the English light cruisers, despite all the shortcomings, was quite decent in this particular case, at least not yielding to the accuracy of the Prince Eugen breakthrough "Bismarck".
    1. 0
      30 August 2016 21: 59
      Good day, dear colleague! It's great that we all gathered here today :) And I wanted to - rjxtufh is hanging out next :)
      Quote: Comrade
      Still, I’ll venture to express my opinion - statistics say that not everything is so simple, and hardly all the problems of the British in the accuracy of firing from 152 mm guns are the result of some technical flaws organically inherent in their ships.

      Nuuuu, maybe, of course, not all :) But the LMS turned out to be quite archaic.
      Quote: Comrade
      I did not find anything about the other collisions of this cruiser with the English light cruisers.

      I also think that Patyanin was wrong. Or maybe the fact is that the British believed that they were fired from two sides, and so recorded in their reports.
      Quote: Comrade
      the accuracy of the English light cruisers, despite all the shortcomings, was quite decent in this particular case, at least not inferior to the accuracy of the Prince Eugen during the breakthrough of the Bismarck.

      I believe that you are right - but nevertheless, in the New Year’s battle the British had such an additional factor as the artillery fire control radar. This is a very, very significant modification of the LMS, because it allows you to measure everything at once - both distance and bursts, and the target’s displacement speed is easy to determine ... This is already beyond the scope of what I have described. But even in this case, it worked out effectively only according to Hipper
  33. 0
    31 August 2016 01: 25
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Good day, dear colleague!

    Hello, dear Andrey!
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    And I wanted to - rjxtufh hanging out next :)

    This time, Kolyan Romanian shut up. Under his current guise, he has been on the site since 28 August, you see, specially registered to hang out in this thread.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    Or maybe the fact is that the British believed that they were fired from two sides, and so recorded in their reports

    And who knows how it really was? Truth can only be established by comparing reports on both sides.
    Quote: Andrey from Chelyabinsk
    But even in this case, it worked out effectively only according to Hipper

    There actually was some problem with the artillery, what exactly - did not delve into. When I was looking for ammunition consumption from the English side in the battle at La Plata, I came across on one site, it seems, of the New Zealand Navy, an article dedicated to the New Zealand cruiser "Achilles", where there are many technical details, including it is said that with the flow time, after the opening of fire, there was something unpleasant with 152 mm guns began. I didn’t read it, because it’s not interesting. So it is quite possible that this factor has just affected the "New Year's battle".
    By the way, "Achilles" fired its 1 rounds, making exactly two hundred volleys.
  34. 0
    31 August 2016 14: 36
    Quote: AlexA
    the main goal is achieved - tightness of the side

    the main goal, as Tirpitz correctly noted, is to keep the ship afloat and combat ready.
    for example, the Germans made Bismarck very resistant to shelling. Duplicate posts, emergency crews, etc.
    Americans on aircraft carriers created serious fire extinguishing systems.
    and the tightness of the side is not an end in itself. There were not a few ships that reasonably sacrificed protection of the ends of the ship
    and the tightness of these parts was not even a question.

    How do you feel the tightness of the side in the nose? he was torn off altogether, and the ship continued to serve.
    1. 0
      31 August 2016 16: 00
      Quote: yehat
      sacrificed to protect the ends of the ship

      Extremities. The end, this is a rope like that. In the marine sense of the word.
  35. Eug
    0
    1 June 2020 19: 39
    Very interesting. But it would be even more interesting to read about the real fire performance of American Des Moines.