Henschel Hs-123: a primitive but "indestructible" German attack aircraft

100
It may seem strange, but during the Second World War the Luftwaffe practically dispensed with the use of an attack aircraft in the form that, for example, our famous Il-2 was. “Full-fledged” ground attack aircraft (aka “battlefield planes”, aka “direct infantry support planes”) for aviation the Nazis were produced by only one Henschel Flugzeug-Werke AG company, and even this production was its side activity (the main was the production of steam locomotives, machine tools and even irons). Therefore, in general, it is not surprising that the Germans had only two specialized attack aircraft - the Hs-123 and Hs-129. We will talk about the latter in another article (there may be a series of materials about the assault parts of the Luftwaffe), and now we will consider the relatively little-known Hs-123.


Hs-123 on the Soviet-German front.


Maybe for the Russian reader it may seem a little offensive, but the United States for most of the 20 century was the leading country in the field of aircraft manufacturing. And at the dawn of the 1930-ies, it was the Americans who made the first experiments in the area of ​​dive bomber with attack plane functions, although the first attack biplanes appeared in World War One. German aircraft designers adopted valuable transatlantic experience and, combining it with their own developments of the First World War and American investments, began to actively cooperate with officers just starting the formation of air forces of Nazi Germany, proposing to use these types of airplanes in the coming war. This concept was approved, and one of the first machines created for its implementation was the Hs-123, the first prototype of which took off on 1 on April 1935 of the year.

The Luftwaffe functionaries liked the plane (one of the leaders of the Third Reich Air Force, the famous ace of the First World War, Ernst Udet, personally flew around the new car) and was given the go-ahead for a small pre-production release. The production of the first German attack aircraft was carried out at the Henschel factories in Schoenefold and Johannastall, as well as at the AGO plant in Aschersleben.

Henschel Hs-123: a primitive but "indestructible" German attack aircraft

Hs-123 in coloring the early stage of the development of the Luftwaffe.


This plane, like many 1930-x machines, combined both old and new design features designed to enhance its combat survivability and realize its combat functions. First, it was a seemingly outdated biplane (one of the last German planes of this scheme), but this gave, in combination with good aerodynamics, very good controllability and horizontal maneuverability (and, as we know, for the attack aircraft, high speeds very important).

Secondly, he had a large, not retractable landing gear, closed by fairing. This, of course, could not but reduce the speed data, but in part this was exactly what gave (like the famous Ju-87) the opportunity to get out of an almost steep dive without a catastrophic speed increase. In general, it can be noted that this aircraft was similar to the Soviet I-15 and I-153, which, although created as fighters, but by and large at the end of 30-s were used as attack aircraft. At the same time, we emphasize that the Hs-123 was originally created as a diving bomber and attack aircraft, which led to its greater efficiency.


Hs-123 in a rare "broken" camouflage pre-war style.


Thirdly, the considered German aircraft was all-metal - both the wings and the fuselage were made of aluminum, and the design itself was further strengthened (and in this it was radically different from the Soviet machines of the time). This gave him a very large margin of safety and combat survivability, since if, for example, a small hole remained in the wing of the dural plane, for example. At the same time, in the case of a projectile hit the wing, made of "linen and cardboard", etc. materials that were traditional for the Soviet aircraft industry at that time, a hole that grew in flight was formed in the plane, which often led to a serious violation of aerodynamics and even a broken wing and, accordingly, a catastrophe. Therefore, the all-metal airframe itself was a huge and vital plus for the attack aircraft (recall that the famous IL-2 was, in general, a half-wooden plane, and a significant proportion of the knocked down cars were those who had a plane broken in flight as a result of hits. or tail fell off).

Fourthly, the all-metal construction is much better able to withstand flight loads and is an order of magnitude more resistant to weather effects (this is largely, for example, determined by the catastrophically small number of surviving Soviet aircraft of pre-war time).

And of course, from the very beginning, Hs-123 had radio stations FuG 7, which facilitated the coordination of their actions by both ground-based aircraft operators and control stations. Also, German pilots noted both the convenient location of the cockpit itself in the Hs-123 and the convenience of viewing from it (the pilot's seat had an adjustment system). The lower wing of the machine had a single-spar construction, and flaps were located along its trailing edge. The upper wing was large in size and had a two-spar design.


Layout scheme Hs-123.


Although the steering was not automated, as on many German aircraft already then, it still had weight compensation, and therefore the Hs-123 was considered fairly easy to control in flight.

Fifthly, the majority of the Hs-123 had a BMW132 star-shaped air-cooled engine (horsepower 880), which was covered with a hood with characteristic pins for cylinder heads. Of course, this again reduced speed data somewhat (the maximum speed of this car was 340 km / h) and blocked the pilot's view ahead. But we recall that the speed data of such aircraft, later created and becoming a kind of WWII symbols, of airplanes like Ju-87 and Il-2, was not much higher, and the Luftwaffe fighter fighter, at the beginning-middle of the year, had the same speed. The cockpit in the Hs-30 was raised and was in the highest part of the fuselage, which allowed partly to eliminate the problem of the review ahead. At the same time, the star-shaped air-cooled air-cooling engine, which is very reliable and resistant to combat damage, was an excellent front protection for the pilot, which is important for assault attacks (recall that one of the main problems affecting the vitality of the Ju-123 and Il-87 was liquid cooling engines).

Thus, despite the apparent primitivism of the design, in the hands of the German pilots of the prewar time and the initial period of WWII, there was a very persistent, hard-to-break and well-controlled combat aircraft. A certain disadvantage of the Hs-123 was its weak armament - only 2 fuselage, synchronized with a propeller, 7.9 caliber mm MG-17 machine gun, as well as a small bomb load (up to 250 kg., With overload up to 450 kg. Bombs). However, in general, such weapons were considered, in general, good for the middle 1930-x.

In order to strengthen it, the German designers developed special underwing containers, thanks to which the Hs-123 could additionally be equipped with 2 machine guns (or rifle caliber, or large-caliber) before the pilot's choice, while the departure could be carried out with a load of bombs. A little later, from the 1938 of the year, the German pilot could also choose additional weapons in the form of two underwing 20-mm MG-FF cannons, which made it possible to seriously increase the firepower of this attack aircraft (recall that the IL-2 offensive weapons also consisted of two machine guns and two 23-mm guns), however, in this case, the combat mission was usually carried out without a bomb load.


Hs-123 in camouflage of the Spanish Franco Air Force.


Thus, it was Hs-123 that was one of the main competitors of Ju-87, and from a military point of view it showed itself well as part of the Condor Legion in Spain, having received there the ironically conventional name Angelito - Angel.

The first link of these aircraft in the composition of the three cars arrived in Spain in the autumn of 1936, and from that moment Hs-123 went through the entire Civil War on the Iberian Peninsula, and at first they were used even as fighters. True, in this capacity they did not succeed, because However, the heavier I-15 and high-speed I-16 delivered to the Spanish communists from the USSR, and having lost two cars, the Henschels returned to their direct attack and dive-bomb functions. In addition to Spain, Hs-123 was also supplied to Chinese government forces, where they fought quite successfully in 1938-39 against the Japanese (the most famous in the Far East were successful attacks against Japanese warships running in the lower Yangtze).


Hs-123 in camouflage government of China.


To show the unique combat survivability of this model, even at an early stage of its application, we present a simple fact: from the spring 1937 of the year to the spring of the 1939 year, despite active participation in the battles of the Spanish Civil War as a battlefield aircraft, none of the nearly two dozen Spanish nationalists Hs-Xnumx was not brought down by Republican forces.

However, despite the excellent success, this aircraft was considered a kind of transitional form and temporary ersatz before the mass production of the famous Ju-87, in connection with which the Junkers concern received for a number of reasons (one of which were huge empty aircraft manufacturing facilities) an absolute advantage in state order. . As a result, as early as April 1937, the large-scale production of Hs-123 was curtailed, and in October 1938 was finally discontinued, and although these attack aircraft were still in some Luftwaffe units, many of them were transferred to flight schools.

True, during the Polish 1939 campaign of 897, the German 36 bombers and attack aircraft were Hs-123, and they lost all 2 vehicles shot down, while Ju-87 units lost 31 aircraft (and these were 11% losses from the number of aggressors against Poland). In May-June, the 1940 of the 45 assault biplanes Hs-123 took an active part in the defeat of France, and in the spring of the 1941, the unit of these machines was used in the Balkan campaign. But, despite the constant successful combat practice, the leadership of the Luftwaffe decided to withdraw these planes from the composition of military aviation, considering these machines ideal for studying future pilots of the famous "pieces". The main drawbacks of this model were quite naturally indicated inadequate bomb load, short range and too weak weaponry.


Hs-123 in summer camouflage of the Eastern Front.


However, after the start of Operation Barbarossa, units of the Wehrmacht on the formed Eastern Front began to complain of a strong shortage of attack aircraft, despite the fact that the Soviet Air Force actively stormed their columns with many types of combat aircraft. In this regard, it was decided to resume the production of Hs-123A, in order to at least somehow saturate the Soviet-German front with attack aircraft. True, this did not happen due to many reasons, although many Hs-123 were withdrawn from flying schools and entered into the composition of the Luftwaffe combat units that fought in the Soviet Union.

Thus, since the summer of 1941, and especially since the spring of 1942, these seemingly primitive attack aircraft massively fought on almost all sectors of the Soviet-German front. Initially, as part of the invasion forces, Barbarossa launched the entire 22 Hs-123 from II.Schl./LG2, but then their number steadily increased. In the summer and autumn of 1941, these aircraft operated on the central and northern sectors of the Eastern Front, and then took part in the battle for Moscow.


Hs-123, shot down by 22.11.1941 near Volokolamsk.


In January 1942, the remaining vehicles and the replenishment arrived were consolidated into a special part of 7./SchlG 1, and as part of this first assault wing in the Luftwaffe, they took part in the battles for Kharkiv and the Crimea. It may sound a bit strange, but in the summer and autumn of 1942, broken and damaged Hs-123 were searched for landfills all over Germany, which were urgently restored and sent to the Eastern Front.

During the fighting in Russia, the Germans found out that a very important advantage of these assault biplanes was their ability to operate from muddy ground airfields, which was impossible for most German aircraft. By the spring of 1943, the 4 of the Hs-123 squadron was already operating against the USSR. "Stalingrad" winter 1942-43 the Germans even came to the point that a number of Luftwaffe commanders again began to demand the resumption of production of these "unkillable" and universal machines, but the leaders of industry for a number of reasons again denied them that. Only the latest Hs-123 were transferred from flight schools and from the Balkan theater to the Eastern Front, where these outdated biplanes were fought in seemingly impossible conditions even before the summer of 1944 as part of II / SG2.

Based on the experience of fighting against the USSR in the autumn-winter 1941, the remaining aircraft were converted into a modification of the Hs-123B: they increased their armor, put a slightly more powerful engine BMW132K (960 hp), and the cabin was equipped with a closed lantern and heater, in order to provide the possibility for German pilots of comfortable combat missions in the harsh climate of continental Russia. According to some reports, on the Soviet-German front, some Hs-123 were permanently retrofitted with two 20-mm cannons, which were mounted at the base of the wings, in order to free the wing holders for the bombs.

Indeed, strange as it may seem, in the Luftwaffe front-line units Hs-123 was fought before the summer of 1943, even in the Battle of Kursk, and for counterguerrilla actions deep behind the front line they were used until the autumn of 1944. Another function of these German assault biplanes on the Eastern Front was their use as night bomber bombers, as well as their use in night fighter squadrons to counter the Soviet Po-2.


Hs-123 under the fire of the Soviet fighter.


So, despite the extremely intensive use and long lifespan, these machines fought, in fact, until the end of the war, despite the fact that Hs-123 was released only 252 units. (7 prototypes, 16 pre-production and 229 serial copies), not many thousands. The last Hs-123 in the Wehrmacht carried out close reconnaissance, the delivery of food and ammunition to the surrounded German groups, and were also used as night bombers even in the autumn of 1944.

What can explain such a phenomenal "indestructibility" of this aircraft? In addition to the factors voiced above and affecting the combat survivability of the Hs-123, firstly, the highest build quality and a huge safety factor of the structure should be noted (no doubt, the tradition of the production of steam locomotives and irons affected). Secondly, small speed data, excellent stability during takeoff and landing, the ability to operate from any runways, simplicity and ease of control at the same time allowed us to avoid a huge number of non-combat losses (which, for example, the same Me-109 was famous for). Third, no matter how ridiculous this may seem, this supposedly primitive plane was an unexpectedly difficult target for poorly trained Soviet pilots (and these were the majority in the Red Army air force for a considerable period of war). Due to the very small load on the wing, the Hs-123 could literally turn around in the air "on the patch" and dodge the attack of a high-speed Soviet fighter (approximately the same tactics used by our aircraft of obsolete types, evading the attacks of "Messers").


Shot down on the Soviet-German front Hs-123 with the sign "Hero of assault attacks" on the fuselage.


In addition, despite the ceiling in 9000 m, Hs-123 operated on the Eastern Front mainly at ultra-low altitudes, and, "clinging to the ground", escaped fighter attacks, which, in turn, were afraid of crashing into the ground at such heights - for a much higher stall speed. A significant role in the survival of these biplanes was played by the extremely weak saturation of the Soviet formations with small-caliber anti-aircraft artillery, and this was the main means of struggle against attack aircraft.

Thus, a successful design and skillful tactics of action allowed this, in fact, created by an outdated scheme and released in a very small number of aircraft to actively fight almost until the very end of the war, even though there was no side-shooter for the defense of the rear hemisphere (which was considered almost catastrophic lack of early IL-2 series).
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  1. +2
    12 August 2016 06: 39
    It does not seem strange, but during the Second World War the Luftwaffe practically did not use the attack aircraft in the form that, for example, was our famous Il-2.

    Well why. Judging by the memoir literature, the Ju-87 were quite able to cope with this role. Especially specialized modifications. The same Rudel on an airplane with 37mm guns - as an example.
    1. +15
      12 August 2016 07: 03
      Quote: Mytholog
      Judging by the memoir literature, the Ju-87 were quite able to cope with this role.

      Good day ! In my opinion, the Ju-87 is still a dive bomber, and not an attack aircraft, very few attack modifications were actually released.
      1. +7
        12 August 2016 07: 41
        Quote: Warrior2015
        Quote: Mytholog
        Judging by the memoir literature, the Ju-87 were quite able to cope with this role.

        Good day ! In my opinion, the Ju-87 is still a dive bomber, and not an attack aircraft, very few attack modifications were actually released.


        "The conversion of the serial Ju87D-3 to the G-1 version was carried out in combat units and was carried out in such a way that it was possible to return the machines to their original appearance. All the cars had no brake flaps, but their mounting brackets remained. In total, about 100 cars were converted in this way. In addition to the G-1, the anti-tank modification Ju1943G-44, also with two VK 87 cannons, was produced directly at serial aircraft factories in 2-3.7. The base vehicle for them was the Ju87D-5 version, so the Ju87G-2 differed from the G-1 modification. The brakes and brackets for their attachment were absent on all machines.Some of the machines in the G-2 version retained the 20mm MG151 / 20 wing cannons, on others - the cannons were removed.The main purpose of the cannons was to zero in before opening fire from the VK 3.7. A total of 208 aircraft of this type were produced. "

        (C) http://airwar.ru/enc/bww2/ju87g.html
    2. +9
      12 August 2016 07: 46
      Quote: Mytholog
      Well why. Judging by the memoir literature, the Ju-87 were quite able to cope with this role. Especially specialized modifications. The same Rudel on an airplane with 37mm guns - as an example.

      The Germans had a completely different understanding of the "plane of the battlefield." They saw in this role a dive bomber. And all these disputes Ju-87 vs Il-2 do not make sense for the reason that both of these aircraft are battlefield aircraft, but in different tactical levels. Ju-87 could not attack individual point and mobile targets on the battlefield - tanks, machine-gun nests, etc. There was no way at that time to ensure such precision in bombing. Dive bombers could bomb concentrations of troops, fortifications, trenches, columns of troops, bridges, railway stations, roads - i.e. larger objects. And the Il-2 was exactly what individual objects on the battlefield could look for - tanks, individual guns, pillboxes. Those. relatively speaking, the Ju-87 is a support weapon at the division-army level, and the Il-2 at the battalion-regiment level. Naturally, all this does not exclude the fact that the Ju-87 could successfully put a bomb into a freestanding tank, or the Il-2 could bomb a station or bridge. It's about a typical task.
      1. +6
        12 August 2016 07: 52
        Quote: Alex_59
        The Germans had a completely different understanding of the "plane of the battlefield." They saw in this role a dive bomber. And all these disputes Ju-87 vs Il-2 do not make sense for the reason that both of these aircraft are battlefield aircraft, but in different tactical levels.

        Yes, it seems not. And the release of specialized attack aircraft fully proves this.

        And more likely in different tactical forms.

        The Ju-87 is a classic "flying artillery" of the regiment-division level, something more serious, of the corps-army level - this is the Ju-88, with a large range and a greater bomb load (which, by the way, was a dive bomber too).

        Quote: Alex_59
        Ju-87 could not attack individual point and moving targets on the battlefield - tanks, machine gun nests, etc. There was no way at the time to ensure such precision bombing. Dive bombers could bomb clusters of troops, fortifications, chains of trenches, columns of troops, bridges, railway stations, roads - i.e. larger objects. And IL-2 was precisely what they could look for individual objects on the battlefield - tanks, individual guns, bunkers.
        Sorry, but you are a little mistaken - the accuracy of hitting targets at Ju-87 was higher than that of IL-2, primarily because of the possibility of striking almost vertically, which IL-2 could not do, attacking the target from a gentle dive.
        1. +10
          12 August 2016 08: 03
          Quote: Warrior2015
          Sorry, but you are a little mistaken - the accuracy of hitting targets at Ju-87 was higher than that of IL-2, primarily because of the possibility of striking almost vertically, which IL-2 could not do, attacking the target from a gentle dive.

          The Il-2 had low accuracy and depended heavily on the pilot's experience, but the Il-2 often used PTABs and other "loose material", guns. And the accuracy of the Ju-87 was, of course, higher, and many times, but not so much higher that the bomb would hit the tank exactly. This is confirmed by the number of bombs dropped on such a small target as the battleship Marat. Many bombs were dropped - only a few were hit.
          Quote: Warrior2015
          Yes, it seems not. And the release of specialized attack aircraft fully proves this.

          Take into account the quantity. 252 Hs-123 and 900 Hs-129, this is not 36 000 Il-2. The Germans simply didn’t need IL-2 type aircraft, from 1939 to 1942 there was no urgent need for this. But when they discovered how many tanks the Red Army has and what tanks ... Such an aircraft became needed. But he was not there. All that they could do was transform into Fw-190 fighter-bomber. In this role, 42 through 45 was released 6634 Fw-190.
          1. +4
            12 August 2016 08: 13
            Quote: Alex_59
            252 Hs-123 and 900 Hs-129, this is not 36 000 Il-2.

            Well, as it turned out, they are needed, and strongly, just "our desires do not always coincide with our capabilities." laughing

            Quote: Alex_59
            And the accuracy of the Ju-87 was certainly higher, and at times, but not so much higher that a bomb would hit the tank exactly. This confirms the number of bombs dropped on such a small target as the battleship Marat.
            An example was analyzed more than once - such a density of anti-aircraft fire and so many anti-aircraft guns in the area where the Baltic Fleet was stationed was not anywhere else during the whole war, so the bombing was carried out from high altitudes with low accuracy, everything is simple. On the battlefield, nothing of the kind even came close.

            Quote: Alex_59
            but the Il-2 often used PTABs and other "loose materials", guns.
            By the way, the Germans also used cluster bombs, and in addition, 20-mm guns were often placed on the same later modifications of the Ju-87.
            1. PPD
              +4
              12 August 2016 11: 13
              Quote: Warrior2015
              An example was analyzed more than once - such a density of anti-aircraft fire and so many anti-aircraft guns in the area where the Baltic Fleet was stationed was not anywhere else during the whole war, so the bombing was carried out from high altitudes with low accuracy, everything is simple. On the battlefield, nothing of the kind even came close.

              Here the Germans got the enemy villain, renders resistance. smile
              And why this argument is usually given in justification to the enemy.
              And the accuracy of the Lapper is 30 meters. Good luck getting into the tank. laughing
              1. 0
                12 August 2016 17: 01
                And they also say: "If my grandmother had .... it would have been a grandfather."
            2. +1
              12 August 2016 20: 17
              what density! Lender guns, trophy Bofors? There were 85 mm with almost no shells, if it weren’t for the 100 mm Italian anti-aircraft guns on the new cruisers, there would just be an ass with a handle. Moreover, neither the POISO nor the MPOISO acted, and the absence of the MZA allowed the dive bombers to bomb almost with impunity.
          2. +1
            12 August 2016 09: 46
            The Junkers with 37 mm guns were quickly abandoned, apparently there were reasons. Like the 75 mm gun on the Hs-129, no fig showed itself. This is evidenced indirectly by the number of aircraft released against the 190s, which also had no God knows what exact guns, but took the number and total rate of fire.

            And the post-war development of the guns moved in the direction of increasing the rate of fire, rather than caliber.
            1. +1
              12 August 2016 10: 51
              Quote: kugelblitz
              The Junkers with 37 mm guns were quickly abandoned, apparently there were reasons. Like the 75 mm gun on the Hs-129, no fig showed itself.

              Actually, no, and assault modifications of the pieces (as well as the Hs-129, and the Ju-88 with 37mm and even 57-mm guns fought until the end of the war). Well, all sorts of nonsense with 75mm guns and even mortars - this is nonsense.
              1. +3
                12 August 2016 17: 29
                XSh-129 with 7 5mm cannon - no bullshit. In the battles for Poland, these aircraft inflicted heavy losses on our armored forces. Another thing is that there were few of these aircraft, the ammunition consisted of only 12 shells. and the gun itself had low survivability. After two sorties, the trunks were changed. The Germans themselves consider this aircraft unsuccessful. At first, no luck with the engine, then there were problems with survivability - the cabin is unarmored, there is no air gunner. The only plus was the compactness of the car. XSh-129 is less than Yu-87 and IL-2.
                1. 0
                  12 August 2016 19: 59
                  XSh-129

                  Very uncomfortable, cramped cabin.
            2. 0
              15 August 2016 12: 13
              Tests carried out by the Germans themselves at the rear training grounds under ideal conditions on fixed meshes (captured tanks KV and T-34) showed a very low probability of hitting and penetration was almost nonexistent at all ... so the Junkers87 with fluffs left eminent pilot-type asses alive Rudel by free hunting and scaring the unshooted infantry ... by the way, this did not stop recording hundreds of destroyed tanks in the personal accounts of Luftwaffe pilots every month!
              1. 0
                15 August 2016 12: 31
                http://vspomniv.ru/shtukas.htm
                http://www.airaces.ru/plane/voennye-samoljoty-germanii/yunkers-ju-87-stuka.html
                And read it
                http://www.e-reading.club/bookreader.php/128561/Degtev%2C_Zefirov_-_Laptezhnik_p
                rotiv__chernoii_smerti _._ Obzor_razvitiya_i_deiistviii_nemeckoii_i_sovetskoii_sht
                urmovoii --_ voiiny.html
          3. 0
            12 August 2016 10: 14
            . This confirms the number of bombs dropped on such a small target as the battleship Marat. Many bombs were dropped - only a few fell.

            counteraction to PVO, do not discount
          4. +2
            12 August 2016 10: 17
            The bombs that were intended for them -500 and 1000 kg fell both on Marat and the October Revolution. Both were disabled. Like almost all Baltic Fleet ships.
            And accuracy is the sinking of several destroyers in the Northern Fleet, Black Sea Fleet and dozens of ships and vessels in the Baltic, Black Seas and the North.
            1. +4
              12 August 2016 10: 46
              Quote: kara61
              The bombs that were intended for them -500 and 1000 kg fell both on Marat and the October Revolution. Both were disabled. Like almost all Baltic Fleet ships.

              And when was Oktyabrina put out of action?
              Despite the injuries sustained, air raids and shelling, the battleship fired the main caliber in September and October 1941. From the beginning of the war to October 22, the October Revolution conducted 110 firing, firing 880-mm shells: 305 armor-piercing, 26 shrapnel, and the rest high-explosive. The ship opened fire with an anti-mine caliber, having spent from October 20 to October 1 for three firing at targets in New Peterhof 15 high-explosive shells.

              LC did not prevent even a direct hit of 250-kg AB in BShGK No. 3:
              On September 23, one 250-kg aerial bomb hit the deck above Casemate No. 10, and the second hit the roof of the 3rd tower (in a joint with a side wall).
              A hole 60x70 cm in size was formed in the roof of the tower, and the wall plate moved 3 cm; while the left gun was out of order, the tower rangefinder was destroyed, the armor cap of the horizontal gunner was demolished, but the tower continued to operate.

              A direct hit of 500-kg AB only led to jamming of BShGK No. 2.

              "Kirov" in the fall of 1941 in Kronstadt in general cost light damage. But in "Aisstoss" he got it - 2 months were repaired. But the "MG" after a mine explosion was distinguished by rare luck - the bombs flew past, and the shells inflicted only light damage.
              1. PPD
                +3
                12 August 2016 11: 16
                All project 26 cruisers showed good survivability. They reached the base even without pieces of the hull.
                1. 0
                  12 August 2016 14: 11
                  Quote: PPD
                  All project 26 cruisers showed good survivability. They reached the base even without pieces of the hull.

                  And three times: first "MG" lost its nose, then "Molotov" stern, and after the war "Kirov" was blown up.
              2. 0
                12 August 2016 11: 20
                http://www.e-reading.club/bookreader.php/84410/Bazhenov,_Degtev,_Zefirov_-_Cel&#
                039; _-_ korabli._Protivostoyanie_Lyuftvaffe_i_sovetskogo_Baltiiiskogo_flota.html
                https://books.google.ru/books?id=AYelAAAAQBAJ&pg=PT367&lpg=PT367&dq=люфтваффе+пр
                otiv + Baltic Fleet + in ++ Kronstadt & source = bl & ots = tJP9dDblrA & sig = 51pyhsBmc_pQ_WrwyqoDcy
                xhDBE&hl=ru&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj14tbFuLvOAhVCWywKHWI9BVEQ6AEIJjAC#v=onepage&q=%D0%B
                B%D1%8E%D1%84%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%84%D1%84%D0%B5%20%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%
                B8%D0%B2%20%D0%91%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%82%D1%84%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B0%20%D0%B2%20%20
                %D0%9A%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%88%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%B4%D1%82%D0%B5&f=false
                https://books.google.ru/books?id=nXXiLWeUlrMC&pg=PT138&lpg=PT138&dq=люфтваффе+пр
                otiv + Baltic Fleet + in ++ Kronstadt & source = bl & ots = hUaTVX0eJv & sig = tWvqyhUC2JOfSCTIhXLQmA
                Fan6w&hl=ru&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj14tbFuLvOAhVCWywKHWI9BVEQ6AEIOTAG#v=onepage&q=%D0%B
                B%D1%8E%D1%84%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%84%D1%84%D0%B5%20%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%
                B8%D0%B2%20%D0%91%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%82%D1%84%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B0%20%D0%B2%20%20
                %D0%9A%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%88%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%B4%D1%82%D0%B5&f=false
                1. +1
                  12 August 2016 14: 18
                  My quotes on "Oktyabrina" are based on the work of AM Vasiliev "Line ships of the" Marat "type" (Midel-Shpangout magazine No. 2 (7), 2003).

                  Marshmallows and Platonov tend to exaggerate damage to ships. In fact, the outwardly damaging damage from the September 21 attack:
                  However, at about noon on September 21, as a result of an attack on 26 aircraft, three aerial bombs heaped into the bow (area 20 sp.) Of the anchored ship, and many exploded near the side. High-explosive bombs (100 or 250 kg caliber) pierced the upper 37-mm deck and exploded in the upper twin deck, completely destroying the spire compartment, as well as other rooms between armored bulkheads at 29 and 14 sp.
                  they didn’t particularly affect the combat effectiveness of the LC - the ship set off and reached a new parking lot, and then to the harbor on its own:
                  At the same time, the average 25-mm deck practically did not receive serious damage, but part of the underlying premises was flooded. To evade the following attacks, it was necessary to make a move, but both bow spiers were disabled, and the battleship, after full speed, went three quarters of an hour to the Small Kronstadt raid, dragging the anchors along the bottom. In the new parking lot, the ship withstood four consecutive air attacks, 20–40 aircraft in each, but did not receive new hits and that day, breaking the anchor chain, entered the harbor and stood on the moorings to the wall at the Forest Gate.
              3. +2
                12 August 2016 15: 35
                But who needed MG? He was of no value as a combat unit. His nose was torn off at the 60th frame.
                Kirov did well, as did Oktyabrina. Practically without energy, both of them moved in tow. 2 months was something to patch up, and since they were not a combat unit until the end of the war, however, like the entire USSR fleet.
                1. +2
                  12 August 2016 16: 10
                  Quote: kara61
                  But who needed MG? He was of no value as a combat unit. His nose was torn off at the 60th frame.

                  On the night of July 20-21, the nasal tip was towed to Kronstadt and immediately entered into the dock - on the same trigger slide on which it was launched from the slipway. Then the damaged cruiser itself entered the dock. After pumping water, the compartment was pulled up, docked and riveted. In order to provide blackout during welding and gas cutting works, a lightproof tent was built from the tarpaulin over the dock, which completely covered the bow of the ship. During the repair, the bent edges of the left propeller blades were also fixed and the demagnetizing device was mounted, as well as the catapult and 45-mm guns were removed, and 10 37-mm 70-K submachines were installed in their place.
                  On August 2, the ship was taken out of the dock, and on the 12th it went on a raid to check the mechanisms, equipment, demagnetizing device and conduct sea trials. Instead of the planned three months, the restoration of "Maxim Gorky" took only 43 days.
                  On August 18, four tugboats entered the cruiser into Forest Harbor. The very next day, his 100-mm guns opened fire on enemy aircraft. On August 24, he relocated from Kronshtadt to Leningrad, passing through the Sea Canal without tugboats, and moored at the Khlebny breakwater of the trading port.

                  That is, on August 18, 1941 KRL "MG" was a combat unit.
                  Quote: kara61
                  Kirov did well, as did Oktyabrina. Practically without energy, both tollers moved in tow.

                  O RLY?
                  It took a turn to evade the following attacks, but both bow spiers were disabled, and the battleship, giving full speed, walked for three quarters of an hour to the Small Kronstadt raid, dragging the anchors along the bottom. In the new parking lot, the ship withstood four consecutive air attacks, 20–40 aircraft in each, but did not receive new hits and that day, breaking the anchor chain, entered the harbor and stood on the moorings to the wall at the Forest Gate.

                  The last firing at the advanced units of the enemy was carried out by artillery battleships on October 22. On the same day at 20 o’clock. 55 minutes the battleship “October Revolution”, under cover of night, escorted by two tugboats, left Kronstadt and by one's own course went through the Sea Canal to Leningrad. At b o'clock. 30 minutes. October 23 battleship took a new firing position at the Mining Institute.

                  In addition, in the shallow waters of the Neva Bay, "big pots" are generally not recommended to walk on their own - because the only deep place there are the Sea Canal and the Kronstadt fairways. Step left, step right, and you're broke.
                  1. +4
                    12 August 2016 16: 44
                    MG blew up on a mine on June 23rd, his nose was torn off. He had to punch his nose from the 68th project, and he turned into a floating battery. After the war he was put into operation. The first exit was in the 46th year.
                    "On August 24, under its own power, went through the Sea Canal to Khlebnaya Gavan. He took part in repelling numerous air raids and the September assault on Leningrad, received eight hits from heavy shells and was transferred to the Iron Wall of the commercial port near the mouth of the Fontanka, where repairs were carried out on it."
                    Kirov-in Tallinn received a bomb, in September raids lost all fire control systems. As a result of the German operations Aischtoss and Goetz von Berlichingen in April - May 1942, the cruiser received 4 direct bomb attacks and one artillery hit (not counting the close explosions ) A strong fire arose, including in artillery cellars, some of which had to be flooded to avoid an explosion. Many superstructures, a spare command post of the ship, part of the premises and pipelines were damaged. On the cruiser 86 people died, 46 were injured.
                    The battery floated until the end of the war. In October 45, after podshamanivaniya-a mine explosion and until the 53rd repair. Super-battle ship. All life near the wall.
                    http://otvaga2004.ru/boyevoe-primenenie/boyevoye-primeneniye05/krejser-tipa-kiro
                    v-3 /
                    They did not begin to repair Oktyabrina. The scope of damage was too great. They wrote off to axes after the war.
                    1. +4
                      12 August 2016 18: 11
                      Quote: kara61
                      MG blew up on a mine on June 23rd, his nose was torn off. He had to punch his nose from the 68th project, and he turned into a floating battery. After the war he was put into operation. The first exit was in the 46th year.

                      You confuse him with Molotov. For MG, the bow was built anew, specially for it, using casting of stems, clues and ship equipment of unfinished cruisers of the project 68.
                      If there were problems with the nasal extremity, then MG would have been repaired in 1945-1946, before moving to Liepaja.
                      Quote: kara61
                      They did not begin to repair Oktyabrina. The scope of damage was too great. They wrote off to axes after the war.

                      What? "Oktyabrina" from 1948 went to sea and became a training aircraft only in March 1954. And it was withdrawn from its fleet in 1956, together with "Parizhanka".

                      But the "big pots" of the KBF did not go into the war because until 1944 the Finns and Germans controlled the sea, and after the complete lifting of the blockade, the available forces of the trawling fleet and rear were barely enough to ensure the basing and exit to the sea of ​​the TKA and submarines ...
                      1. +5
                        12 August 2016 18: 55
                        Are you laughing? Under the conditions of the blockade, to build the bow section in three months! Yes, there was no steel production in Leningrad, Izhora brought a sheet for ships.
                        They took a section from an unfinished cruiser and turned out to be a freak. But nothing, in principle, it was similar projects, both Italian Ansaldo designed. The trick was that the set was the same, on other projects the docking would not work.
                        After the bombing of the 41-42th at the KBF there weren’t any ships ready to leave, no teams, no minesweepers to trawl, Kirov was withdrawn after repair on October 45th and caught a present. So, before the 53rd, it was in repair.
                        Oktyabrina didn’t go anywhere after the war. Because Stalin grabbed Italian junk, the Anglo-Saxons were not allowed to take another, like the latest German boats, that there was not a single battleship left in the Navy. The Parisian woman stood until the 54th, as octoberina.
                      2. Alf
                        +1
                        12 August 2016 20: 36
                        Quote: kara61
                        , another Anglo-Saxons were not allowed to take,

                        There were no other battleships of the Axis countries alive then they took what was left.
                      3. +1
                        12 August 2016 20: 42
                        What they gave, then they took. Neither new Italians gave us any submarines.
                2. +2
                  12 August 2016 17: 52
                  In the last war, the Soviet Navy did everything that the rapidly changing situation on the land front demanded of it. If it were not for "Marat", Army Group "North" reinforced by an SS tank division would literally "rolled" into Leningrad on the shoulders of our retreating troops. In 1942 the battleship "Sevastopol" practically nullified the second German assault. You need to better learn history , read more and better delve into the meaning of what you read.
                  1. +3
                    12 August 2016 18: 20
                    Horseradish with two that the Baltic Fleet could do. After the raids on September 19-27 and April 42. The forts and railway batteries were rescued.
                    and even that, the shooting was conducted on the squares. The psychological effect was greater. The fleet had only one adjustment for the whole war — on the Northern Fleet of Baku, and then, when removing the group of spotters, two MOs were lost.
                    Learn history not from Ortenberg’s campaigns, but from database magazines.
                    Battleship Sevastopol in the 42nd was not at the Baltic Fleet.
                    The Parisian Komunna was transferred to the Black Sea Fleet before the Second World War, almost drowning in Biscay on the way, and were afraid to tell her back.
                    In the 42nd, it didn’t differ in anything, they fired into the white light like a penny, there were no corrections and reconnaissance of targets. Moreover, in three shootings the starting position was not determined correctly.
                    You are all guided by the memoirs of our stripes, but you already have a lot of data on both sides, database analysis, posting journals, which were used to calculate lies and self-propelled guns and bomb-assault nonsense, for which Novikov and his comrades were bunkers, and Kuznetsov was given a hat.
            2. +2
              12 August 2016 17: 42
              In raids on Kronstadt in 1941, from 46 to 80 aircraft took part daily. The Germans competently chose goals. Linkor is not a needle. At that time, they had suitable aircraft and pilots with combat experience. The anti-aircraft armament of the ships was insufficient, maneuvering was difficult, the airborne landing service in Kronshtadt later discovered enemy aircraft, the fighter cover of the main base attacked the enemy already at a distance from the target. There was much more to learn for the aria and navy. The war was cruel and bloody ....
              1. +3
                12 August 2016 18: 26
                Massive raids were only on the 19-27 of September, after the sinking of the Baltic Fleet and the defeat of fighter aircraft by the KBF, the Luftwaffe transferred its bombers to the Moscow direction.
                They returned only in April 42 to finish off the remaining ships.
                And in June of the 42, they completely burned Murmansk and almost the whole of Arkhangelsk, crushing the ports to pieces. And until October, both ports could not accept cargo, there were no cranes or berths.
                During the raids on Kronshtadt, the KBF blocked the air cover by special groups. It did not show any resistance. The Army men helped out and the Italian captured the Bofors captured from the Finns and 100 mm anti-aircraft guns on new cruisers.
                1. +3
                  12 August 2016 18: 36
                  Quote: kara61
                  Massive raids were only on the 19-27 of September, after the sinking of the Baltic Fleet and the defeat of fighter aircraft by the KBF, the Luftwaffe transferred its bombers to the Moscow direction.
                  They returned only in April 42 to finish off the remaining ships.
                  And in June of the 42, they completely burned Murmansk and almost the whole of Arkhangelsk, crushing the ports to pieces. And until October, both ports could not accept cargo, there were no cranes or berths.
                  Unfortunately, I can only confirm this information, yes, the Germans were successful in these operations.
          5. +1
            12 August 2016 13: 59
            The accuracy of the Yu-87 was largely dependent on its low speed and low bombing altitude. When our military air defense got better, and it became more difficult for the divers to work than at the training ground, their famous accuracy immediately disappeared.
            1. +3
              12 August 2016 18: 02
              The accuracy of hitting a ground target with a dive primarily depends on the degree of crew training, the organization of the interaction of units and groups of aircraft. To steeply dive the plane must be adapted for this - have high wing mechanization, robust construction, effective bomb weapons. The low flight speed and low altitude of the Yu-87 bombing have nothing to do with it. With the introduction of the machine into a dive, the speed and overload acting on the pilot increases. As for the height, we must remember that defeating group and point targets from a great height is impossible. The U-87 sighting equipment was simply primitive and designed for use in the daytime in conditions of normal visibility.
        2. 0
          12 August 2016 08: 11
          Quote: Warrior2015
          Ju-87 is a classic "flying artillery" of the level of a regiment-division, something more serious, of the level of a corps-army - this is already a Ju-88

          Well, it may be, I do not pretend to be true, this is just my assumption, formed from memoirs and other literature. Then maybe IL-2 - a battalion-regiment, Ju-87 regiment-division, Ju-88 and Pe-2 - a division-corps-army. I’m just saying that the IL-2 machine is a level lower than Ju-87 and 88 and their comparison is directly incorrect, although in appearance the tasks are similar.
          1. +2
            12 August 2016 08: 19
            Quote: Alex_59
            Then maybe IL-2 - a battalion-regiment, Ju-87 regiment-division, Ju-88 and Pe-2 - a division-corps-army. I’m just saying that the IL-2 machine is lower than Ju-87 and 88

            Yes, it may be that way, but solving tactical tasks of the Il-Xnumx at the battalion level requires the highest level of tactical interaction, and this was barely begun to be achieved by the Soviet troops in the 2 and reached the level only in the 1943.

            By the way, in all respects, the Pe-2 is much "thinner" than the Ju-88, which was capable of solving not just tactical or operational, but even strategic tasks.
            1. +3
              12 August 2016 08: 25
              Quote: Warrior2015
              Solving the tactical tasks of the Il-Xnumx at the battalion level requires the highest level of tactical interaction, and this was barely reached by the Soviet troops in the 2 year and reached the level only in the 1943.

              Yes, this is perhaps the main problem, "wooden tails" and so on against the background of the problem of interaction is deeply secondary. Interaction at the end of 42 was in some places brought to a reaction time of 1 hour for the ambassador of the call, but even at the end of 43, the NPO issued orders indicating poor interaction and demanded elimination.
              1. +2
                13 August 2016 16: 41
                Could you give a link to the 1 hour of the reaction of IL-2 after the call? And explain how the aircraft was carried out in the Red Army.
                When trying to adjust the artillery fire from Kamov's gyroplanes "suddenly !!!" It turned out that the infantry and artillery did not have the same frequencies with the aviation, and there were no radio stations either. I had to remove one from the gyroplane and transmit it to the battalion's command post along with the radio operators, the artillerymen did not have their own. Moreover, in the 42nd radio station in the USSR practically were not produced due to the evacuation of the Moscow radio plant to Sarapul.
                1. 0
                  13 August 2016 17: 34
                  Quote: kara61
                  Could you give a link to the 1 hour of the reaction of IL-2 after the call? And explain how the aircraft was carried out in the Red Army.
                  When trying to adjust the artillery fire from Kamov's gyroplanes "suddenly !!!" It turned out that the infantry and artillery did not have the same frequency with the aviation, and there were no radio stations either. I had to remove one from the gyroplane and transmit it to the battalion command post along with the radio operators, the artillerymen did not have their own.

                  Interesting information, did not know about it.
                  1. 0
                    13 August 2016 17: 58
                    This is in the book about Kamov.
        3. +1
          12 August 2016 10: 14
          Yes, and in terms of combat survivability, the Piece was an order of magnitude higher. IL-2 was released by 36 000 and no more than 2500 remained in service. A piece at a loss made 200-300 sorties, and IL-2-12-20.
          1. +5
            12 August 2016 10: 24
            Quote: kara61
            Yes, and in terms of combat survivability, the Piece was an order of magnitude higher. IL-2 was released by 36 000 and no more than 2500 remained in service. A piece at a loss made 200-300 sorties, and IL-2-12-20.

            Where do you constantly dig out this heresy? IL-2 released 36 000 pieces, on 1 on May 1945, there were 9316 aircraft in service. Over the years of the Second World War, 10 849 planes were irretrievably lost from the enemy’s influence, the remaining planes (about 15000 units) were written off for wear or after accidents not related to military operations.

            For one combat loss of IL-2 there were combat sorties:
            In 1941 year - 13 BV
            In 1942 year - 26 BV
            In 1944 year - 85 BV
            In 1945 year - 90 BV
            1. +1
              12 August 2016 10: 51
              According to Soviet data, on January 1, 1944, there were 10200 (of which 8500 so-called new types) combat aircraft in the army, on July 1, 1944 - 12900 (11800), and on January 1, 1945 - 14700 (14500) . In early 1945, the Soviet Union had 22600 combat aircraft.
              Where did you get so many IL-2?
              In total, there were about 9000 attack aircraft by the end of the war in all the air forces, with the I-153 and other plywood on the Far East and others. And not military losses, this is, in most cases, written off for military damage.
              In the 41st, they gave GSS for 10 flights, then for 25.
              The losses were terrible, especially in the 42 near Stalingrad. The Germans called the Il-2 route to Tatsinskaya and other airfields dear Cement bombers, the Red Army air forces could not do anything to interrupt Paulus' supply. They had to send the tank corps to the Tatsinsky slaughter. They escaped from the raid units.
              The most widespread type of "strike" aircraft in the Red Army Air Force on 09-05-45 was the Po-2 light bomber, more than 3000 in the bomber version, and the Li-2 in the DBA.
              The Americans, when they saw this plywood, could not fly for a week, laughing.
              1. +2
                12 August 2016 10: 53
                Quote: kara61
                The losses were terrible, especially in the 42 near Stalingrad. The Germans called the Il-2 route to Tatsinskaya and other airfields dear Cement bombers, the Red Army air forces could not do anything to interrupt Paulus' supply. They had to send the tank corps to the Tatsinsky slaughter. They escaped from the raid units.

                Wow, IL-2 losses began to decrease only towards the end of 1943 and especially since the summer of 1944.
                1. +1
                  12 August 2016 11: 32
                  After Kursk, the Luftwaffe removed most of the fighters from the Eastern Front. The air war was in the West. In 44 on 60 000 sorties in the West, the loss of the Luftwaffe-5 400 aircraft, and in the East on 80 000-700.
                  When the Melders drove the Red Army aviation in the Baltic states in the tail and mane, they had to organize a special regiment to counter it.
                  Just because the Americans and the RAF were able to gouge synthetic gasoline plants in the 44th, production fell from 180 tons to 000 in June and was restored to 10 tons in November, and saved the Red Army Air Force from defeat. Even at 000 -m 40-fold superiority of the Red Army Air Force could not gain superiority in the air. They could not prevent the evacuation from the Crimea, Courland and Prussia.
                  All warships sank the British.
                  1. +2
                    12 August 2016 18: 28
                    Quote: kara61
                    After Kursk, the Luftwaffe removed most of the fighters from the Eastern Front. The air war was in the West. In 44 on 60 000 sorties in the West, the loss of the Luftwaffe-5 400 aircraft, and in the East on 80 000-700.

                    Well, not all the same, yes, some of the groups were transferred to Italy, in the fall of 1943 - also to France, but they had a real disaster in the spring of 1944 of the year, after terrible losses on the Western Front.

                    In general, these managed to remove formations from the Eastern Front even during the "Bagration".

                    Quote: kara61
                    Americans and RAF were able to gouge synthetic gasoline plants in 44, production fell from 180 000 tons to 10 000 in June and was restored in November to 40 000 tons, and saved the Red Army air forces from defeat. Even having 45 m 9- and multiple superiority of the Red Army Air Force failed to gain superiority in the air. They failed to prevent the evacuation from the Crimea, Courland and Prussia.
                    On the whole, yes, the Anglo-Americans created the problem of gasoline for the Germans.

                    And yes, it always surprised me too - how can one, having complete dominance in the front line, allow evacuation from the Crimea, Courland and East Prussia? Yes, a number of transports were sunk, but not all.


                    1. +1
                      12 August 2016 20: 28
                      Because the attack aircraft in Bagration were able to show something, that almost all of the fighter aircraft was poisoned in the Reich to cover the factories.
                      Almost nothing of which was sunk by our Air Force, all the warships were drowned by the British, and the Germans used them all the way. Twice the laners managed to change.
                    2. +1
                      15 August 2016 08: 02
                      So they had to remove from the Eastern Front, otherwise the ashes from Germany would remain in the 44th.
                      In the West, the Luftwaffe for 60 sorties in the 000th loses 44 vehicles, mostly fighters.
                      And on the East, at 80 BV, only 000 ALL !!! combat aircraft. And this is almost a 700-fold superiority of the Red Army Air Force. Moreover, it was necessary to hastily assemble Kozhedub's special group from all fronts, and create a "marshal" 9th IAP on La-19 to protect against the Melders in the central sector, and Grunov in the Baltic States. Moreover, the Germans had a severe shortage of gasoline, and in Prussia and Kurlianidia there were not enough planes either. At the Gruns, practically 7 divisions fought.
                      About evacuation and the "accuracy" of bomb-torpedo-mine attacks and postscripts - everything is said in the criminal case of Novikov and his headquarters. Deception of the Headquarters, deception.
                      They drowned one, not reliably, transport in the Black Sea, but in the Baltic I did not find any reliably confirmed ones.
                      They attributed to themselves sunk by the British and blown up on the same exposed mines.
                      By the way, it was the same with Grishchenko on L-3, when they sorted it out after raising the flooded, the number of blown up on L-3 mines exposed fell sharply. He drowned Goyu for sure, there is no doubt about it.
                      Well, Travkin’s nonsense was revealed, though he didn’t stop grinding with his tongue, but only later, under Kukuruznik and Brovast.
                    3. 0
                      15 August 2016 16: 44
                      Well yes! First, the arrogant Saxons solved the problem of gas for the Luftwaffe ... by building plants and supplying the necessary components and equipment, and when they themselves landed in Europe and it was necessary to have time to occupy the Russians as quickly as possible, they began to bomb these plants ... as if in 42,43 years they did not know WHY the Germans fly and where this fuel is produced!
                      1. +1
                        15 August 2016 17: 00
                        So the Germans of the USSR built almost all military factories, submarines, anti-aircraft artillery, and gave sea mines and torpedoes, optics, models of the latest weapons. The Italian-design cruisers, destroyers and leaders, ship turbines and 100-mm anti-aircraft guns with fire control devices Both the Italians and the Germans built ships for us. The Soviet Union and the 406-mm turret guns bought the project for the battleship from Krupp.
                        In the same way, Americans built us factories and car projects, aircraft and engines, technologies and patents.
                        The United States sold synthetic gasoline technology to Germany back in the mid-30s.
                        The USSR at the same time supplied the Reich with raw materials and smuggling, and provided operations to the Kriegsmarine.
              2. +5
                12 August 2016 11: 58
                Quote: kara61
                At the beginning of 1945, the Soviet Union had 22600 combat aircraft.

                43 300 aircraft on 01.01.1945 g. Table 185
                http://lib.ru/MEMUARY/1939-1945/KRIWOSHEEW/poteri.txt#w08.htm-_Toc536603411

                Quote: kara61
                Where did you get so many IL-2?
                Where do the planes come from? Obviously from the shops of the Samara aircraft factory.
                Table 11
                http://klad.hobby.ru/alekseenko.htm
                Quote: kara61
                And not combat losses, it is, in most cases, write-off of combat damage.
                I leave nonsense without comment. And stop trolling. I’m not answering you, but in case someone else decides to read.
                Quote: kara61
                The Americans, when they saw this plywood, could not fly for a week, laughing.
                Yes it is possible. There are many, fun people. The Germans also laughed, in 41 and frantically took pictures against the backdrop of crashed planes. Laughter prolongs life. For a few years. Until May 9 of the 45 year.
                1. +1
                  12 August 2016 13: 01
                  So the Germans laughed at the Red Army Air Force in the 45th. Almost 300 cars were filled up over Berlin, and about the failure in the Baltic and during the bombing of Koenigsberg in all flight schools they still laugh.
                  1. +2
                    12 August 2016 23: 16
                    Well, yes, they laugh, and they still laugh, lying in the land, when the meat comes off the skull, then a continuous laugh comes. Here are seven million, and according to some information about ten, have become forever "laughing".
                    1. +1
                      13 August 2016 11: 59
                      27 million dead, half of the country in ruins. This is the result of the "genius" of the mustache and his kagal.
                      1. +3
                        13 August 2016 14: 44
                        Well, if we, too, like them, organized a conveyor of death in the camps (25% of them died in captivity, and 75% of them in ours), and we staged hunger and "mopping up" the civilian population in Germany and their most zealous allies, it could have substantially equalized the total losses, but we are "quilted jackets", we have a share of civilized barbarians.
                      2. +1
                        15 August 2016 10: 06
                        And what did they feed 2 million prisoners in the 41st and 1 million in the 42nd? Did the Lappaine prisoners surrender half of the Red Army, and what, will the Germans feed them? And so, until they started the NKVD sabotage in the rear of the Wehrmacht in the 41st released all who confirmed their residence in the occupied zone.
                        You will remember the Lokot Republic, the Don Cossacks, the Kalmyk autonomy, about 5,5 million who left with the Wehrmacht from the "Best friend of Soviet children and pilots." And there was no repression until the NKVD detachments began sabotage in the rear. This was the case in all occupied countries, except for the general governorship. The former Poland was not recognized as a state.
                        And the civilian population of the Red Army destroyed no less. Especially in Prussia and Courland.
                        Losses of civilians in Stalingrad-on "conscience ???" Stalin, Chayanov and the command of the Red Army, who forbade the evacuation. And the hospital was always abandoned, so the wounded were dying, abandoned to their fate.
                        The Germans did not abandon any encirclement, supplied to the last and, if possible, withdrawn them, but the Red Army did not take a single case of withdrawal from the encirclement.
                        The exception is the cavalry corps of Belov, which Zhukov and Zakharov with maniacal persistence wanted to destroy.Belov then these "geniuses" later grabbed, like Katukov, Golovanov and other thinking commanders.
              3. +1
                12 August 2016 14: 03
                The Germans were not laughing when they were constantly bombarded at night by "invisible" and "night witches".
                1. -5
                  12 August 2016 15: 44
                  Covered. Strategic bombers of the 8th Air Force of the US Air Force and RAF.
                  But the Po-2, in the main, interfered with sleep. And the remaining front-line air forces did not fly at night in the Red Army.
                  And the Germans didn’t even notice the Red Army of the Red Army, only they knew about their existence by the planes that had fallen along the route.
                  1. +4
                    12 August 2016 18: 59
                    Yes, the first bombing of Berlin in the entire war, and it was precisely by the Soviet Air Force, caused such a loud clucking, blackout was introduced for the first time in Germany, etc. - and only you "did not notice" laughing
                    1. +1
                      15 August 2016 08: 17
                      You quote Ortenberg. No one during the war, until the 45th, did not notice the raids of the Soviet Air Force on the Reich. Airplanes often simply did not reach due to malfunctioning materiel, or lost their orientation. There were almost no real hit targets. All this was demonstrated by the attempts bombardment with large-caliber bombs from the Pe-8 Koenigsberg-6 shot down, in the absence of hits.
                      I had to tear forts to sappers from rafts. Many were killed.
            2. +1
              12 August 2016 11: 09
              Quote: Alex_59
              the remaining aircraft (about 15000 units) are written off for wear or after accidents not related to hostilities.

              Excuse me, but do you really believe that 50% supposedly non-combat losses of il-2 during the war were really non-combat?
              1. +5
                12 August 2016 12: 04
                Quote: Warrior2015
                Excuse me, but do you really believe that 50% supposedly non-combat losses of il-2 during the war were really non-combat?

                It's not what I believe in. Just statistics on the Second World War has been known for a long time, studied far and wide. Yes, 50% was charged for accidents and depreciation. IL-2 was an aircraft with an extremely low resource, which is understandable for a mass aircraft with a short lifespan. For example, in 1944 in battles, about 3700 Il-2 is lost. At the same time, 1095 aircraft were lost in accidents, and 2159 aircraft were decommissioned. Total not combat loss 3254 aircraft. There is no point in manipulating these numbers, which were originally intended for internal use and were secret. You can’t fool yourself, but for disinformation of NPOs you could easily go not even to the penal battalion, but directly to the wall.
            3. 0
              12 August 2016 14: 48
              Excuse me, where does this data come from?
          2. PPD
            0
            12 August 2016 11: 19
            Yu 87 left the attack at a height at which il-2 it was just starting. And the time spent on the field is much more.
            1. +1
              12 August 2016 11: 26
              Quote: PPD
              Yu 87 left the attack at a height at which il-2 it was just starting. And the time spent on the field is much more.

              Do you know a lot of examples of IL-2 attacks at a height of a couple of tens of meters?
              And you think it's great to aim at a low-level flight?

              The time spent on a target primarily depends on the carrying capacity — whether it’s not what, whether gasoline, bombs — which was several times higher for the Ju-87 — and primarily the remoteness of the base airfield from the target.

              And as shown in the article - a seemingly primitive airplane Hs-123 had combat survivability comparable to the Il-2.
              1. +3
                12 August 2016 14: 53
                According to the Air Force of the Red Army, 1-12 IL 13 sorties are needed to destroy 2 tank!
                1. Alf
                  +1
                  12 August 2016 19: 19
                  Quote: vadim dok
                  According to the Air Force of the Red Army, 1-12 IL 13 sorties are needed to destroy 2 tank!

                  Right. Now, specify how many U-87 sorties were needed to make to destroy 1 T-34?
        4. PKK
          -1
          12 August 2016 11: 40
          Memoirs report that the pilot of the Yu87 did not just hit a tank, but a certain hatch, and from a distance of 15 meters pulled the plane out of a dive.
          1. +1
            12 August 2016 11: 47
            pullout!!! and dived at an angle of 70-80 degrees, on the Yu-87 was 400-500 meters. Below is invariably full mouth of the earth. Pure physics.
            Il-2 could not dive at such angles. They bombed from a gentle dive, which led to low accuracy, and the lack of sights exacerbated the low efficiency of the Cement bomb.
            1. +4
              12 August 2016 14: 11
              Quote: kara61
              Il-2 could not dive at such angles.

              Yes, cap. Thanks, Cap. Dive and attack aircraft are slightly different classes of aircraft, if anyone does not know.

              But with a gentle dive of the PTAB placers on tanks, the FABs on infantry and equipment columns worked perfectly without it. The Germans didn’t seem to have much effectiveness.
              1. +3
                12 August 2016 20: 32
                After the first raid with the PTAB, the Germans began to disperse the tanks and pull the nets. The losses were reduced by an order of magnitude. 10-12 sorties were needed per tank.
                For columns, yes, and for mercy they worked fine, if they didn’t come across the MZA. Then the ass-shot down almost everyone. Especially when attacking airfields.
            2. +3
              12 August 2016 15: 01
              In addition, the view on the IL 2 was very poor (long motor), but there was no sight at all! There were marks on the hood. The initial sight was immediately removed, because it severely limited the already very poor view and was deadly during emergency landings.
              1. +1
                12 August 2016 18: 56
                Quote: vadim dok
                the view on the 2 was very poor (a long motor), but there was no sight at all! There were marks on the hood. The initial sight was immediately removed, because it severely limited the already very poor visibility and was deadly during emergency landing .

                Unfortunately it's true.
          2. +3
            12 August 2016 12: 18
            Quote: PKK
            and from a distance of 15 meters he tore the plane out of a dive.

            Straight from 15 meters? Cool. Happy Aviation Day! But the pilots don’t know how this maneuver can be easily carried out already from 15 meters in height. laughing
            1. PKK
              -6
              12 August 2016 14: 29
              Your pilots are different from those pilots who have forgiven more than one campaign, who have the highest-class techniques and the machine itself from Krupp materials. Such Ases on the U87, not just millimeters, but also good fighters.
            2. +1
              12 August 2016 19: 20
              Quote: Alex_59
              Straight from 15 meters? Cool. Happy Aviation Day!

              Comrade simply misinterpreted.

              Yes, the dive began with trained crews from 500-700 meters.

              And the pilot of "pieces" began to withdraw from 300-200 meters.

              Accordingly, the lower point of the peak output curve is several tens of meters.
          3. +5
            12 August 2016 14: 04
            that the pilot of the U87 beat not just a tank, but a certain hatch
            Laser Guided Bombs? sad Otherwise it will not work.
            1. +1
              13 August 2016 19: 15
              Quote: Anglorussian
              Laser Guided Bombs?

              Once during the exercises, when I first saw the MiG-27M, one of my senior commanders asked the pilot a question about the accuracy characteristics and received an answer saying that he could get straight from his cannon into his cap placed on the tank’s armor. Being impressed by the answer, the chief hastened to pour his enthusiasm on me and was very offended when I dared to publicly object to him arrogantly, calling into question his sacredness.
              Of course, it is practically impossible to get into the hatch from a cannon or a laser-guided bomb, especially into a cap. It's like Raikin said: "It may very well be, although it is unlikely." If my memory serves me, the KVO of the Kh-29L is in the area of ​​1,5 m, and single firing from a cannon with a rate of fire of 2-7 thousand rounds per minute is generally impossible.
              The most surprising thing is that when evaluating the results of bombing, they speak of "hits", while it is necessary to talk about estimates of mathematical expectations and RMS along the axes.
              1. +1
                13 August 2016 19: 36
                The MiG-27 could be reached anywhere only at the exercises. So far, the aim station has been completed, and the plane was decommissioned.
          4. +2
            12 August 2016 14: 07
            Memoirs, yes, they say a lot of interesting things. wink Especially rudele laughing

            Fishing and hunting stories also broadcast a lot of interesting things. But there are more objective sources of information.
            1. +1
              15 August 2016 10: 44
              Rudel is a recognized specialist in the entire aviation world, and the sunken Marat and all his military work confirm his memoirs.
              When they tried to bend him, who flew over after surrendering to the Americans with his colleagues, he said, “You didn’t take me prisoner, but I flew over to you, leaving the Bolsheviks. And my attitude changed immediately. It was an excellent, trained and brave pilot.
          5. +1
            12 August 2016 14: 55
            It can’t be! It draws the plane FROM the BEGINNING of the exit from the peak at least 200 meters!
          6. Alf
            +2
            12 August 2016 19: 21
            Quote: PKK
            Memoirs report that the pilot of the Yu87 did not just hit a tank, but a certain hatch, and from a distance of 15 meters pulled the plane out of a dive.

            And then the gallant Deutsche pilot for a long time tried to understand how he ended up in a trench, littered with a pile of mutilated duralumin.
          7. +2
            12 August 2016 23: 37
            Or maybe not just in the hatch, but in the left eye, the tank commander, in give, Baron Müngauzen rests.
      2. 0
        12 August 2016 08: 18
        IL-2 against single point targets is actually practically useless, because 95% of shells will not hit. Another thing is the accumulation of the enemy. Ju-87 motionless target can bomb from a dive, but against areal, or moving targets completely dull.
        1. +1
          12 August 2016 08: 29
          Quote: EvilLion
          IL-2 against single point targets is actually practically useless, because 95% of shells will not hit.

          The pilots have a different opinion. The guns were praised. They were pleased with the accuracy. They scolded the RSs, which only at volley launch at point-blank range could in half cases give at least one direct hit. Of course, the bombs were thrown very rudely, not in tanks, but in clusters - there was no sight, in circles on the hood, the accuracy is understandably terrible. PTABs were better - precise aiming is not necessary, poured in one gulp, but due to the fact that there are a lot of them, they fell.
          1. 0
            12 August 2016 09: 55
            Quote: Alex_59
            The guns were praised. They were pleased with the accuracy. They scolded the RSs, which only at volley launch at point-blank range could in half cases give at least one direct hit.

            I absolutely agree with you - guns were the only (after phosphorus ampoules) effective means of attack in IL-2.
          2. +2
            12 August 2016 10: 50
            Quote: Alex_59
            The pilots have a different opinion. The guns were praised. They were pleased with the accuracy

            Duc ... everything is relative: against the background of RS and bombs, the accuracy of the guns could really be considered good. smile
            In relation to this method of attack, in 12 sorties, the average percentage of hit from the VV cannons in the tank by the aiming point was 7%, and in the tank convoy - 7,5% (total projectile consumption of 426 pcs.). At the same time, the pilot with the best rifle training (the leading test pilot of the NIP AV Mr. N.I.Zvonarev) provided 7,4% of hits in a separate tank (or a tank of the aiming point) and 9,5% of hits in a tank column, whereas pilots with satisfactory training (combat pilots from the 245th cap) had a much worse result. The average percentage of frontline pilot’s aiming points in the tank did not exceed 4,2% (spread from 1,5% to 6%), although the percentage of hits in the tank column was higher at 12,6% (range from 6% to 20%).

            For comparison:
            The average percentage of hits of the RS-82 in the aiming point tank when firing from a distance of 400-500 m, shown in the materials of the report, was 1,1%, and in the convoy of tanks - 3,7%, while only 186 out of 7 shells were received direct hits.
            ... of 134 shots of the RS-132, made in the firing range by pilots with varying degrees of training, not a single hit in the tank was received ...
          3. +1
            12 August 2016 11: 48
            The cannons on the IL-2 were ineffective in terms of protected targets, which was demonstrated at the test sites of the Germans, and in the USSR in 42nd.
            1. Alf
              +3
              12 August 2016 19: 27
              Quote: kara61
              The cannons on the IL-2 were ineffective in terms of protected targets, which was demonstrated at the test sites of the Germans, and in the USSR in 42nd.

              The IL-2 gun, rigidly fixed in the wing, is ineffective.
              And the gun hanging on the pylon of the Yu-87 is particularly accurate ...
              Zeus-carbine, etc. Read your nonsense sometimes.
              1. +1
                12 August 2016 19: 51
                Once again, read the reports of the NII VVS Institute. I’m a weak projectile, a lot of failures. 37-mm-swing after the first shot and zero accuracy. I didn’t get the first, you won’t get at all.
                That’s why they were valued for attacking the Aero-Cobra and Yak-9t bombers, without entering the shooting range of the shooters it was possible to turn the line. It was harder on Yak, a very bad tracer, and on Cobra it was easier.
                1. 0
                  13 August 2016 18: 11
                  Quote: kara61
                  That’s why they were valued for attacks on Aero-Cobra and Yak-9t bombers, without entering the shooters' defeat zone, it was possible

                  Well, by the way, IL-2 also sometimes attacked well by bombers ... when they could catch them. request
                  1. 0
                    13 August 2016 18: 16
                    These are isolated cases, as well as the executions of the He-111 and Yu-88 of our aircraft at the beginning of the war. But the coherent Po-2 from the bombers and Rama got it.
                    The IL-2 had weak guns, and the sights were primitive.
        2. 0
          12 August 2016 18: 23
          They are fighting in the war with what is. It’s not the planes that hit the target, but the pilots in them. They fight not only with skill. but also by number. In this respect, IL-2 and Yu-87 are equivalent. There is an order for a sortie and the crews go to defeat single targets,
          group, areal. mobile, etc. etc. To do this, they use all available weapons.
          1. +1
            12 August 2016 19: 06
            Quote: rubin6286
            They are fighting in the war with what is.

            This is unfortunately true.

            Quote: rubin6286
            . In this regard, IL-2 and Yu-87 are equivalent.

            I do not agree with this. Dive and attack aircraft are different classes. Only assault modifications of the Ju-87 G can somehow be equated with the Il-2.

            Even the Hs-123 differed from the IL-2 in that it was able to dive (IL-2 could not do this) and had comparable combat survivability, although it had the worst firepower and took slightly fewer bombs.
            1. 0
              13 August 2016 15: 02
              That you all cling to a dive. You can talk a lot about different classes of machines, design features, etc. etc. The common thing for the Il-2 and Yu-87 is that they are battlefield aircraft intended for direct support of troops, and diving is only a method of combat use. After completing the bombing, the Junkers stood in a circle and turned on the sirens and poured machine-gun fire on the infantry in the trenches, preventing them from raising their heads and getting ready to repel the attacking German tanks and infantry. Also, our attack aircraft "processed" the front edge of the Germans.
      3. 0
        12 August 2016 10: 11
        Yu-87 is an integral part of the blitzkrieg, he was mainly engaged in the destruction of the firing positions of anti-tank weapons (batteries of anti-tank guns) on the battlefield.
        After obsolescence, it was replaced by assault modifications of the FW-190, which could stand up for themselves in the air and did not require escort fighter escort.
        1. 0
          12 August 2016 10: 20
          Quote: Papandopulo
          Yu-87 is an integral part of the blitzkrieg, he was mainly engaged in the destruction of the firing positions of anti-tank weapons (batteries of anti-tank guns) on the battlefield.

          The article that the Germans had more simply a dive-attack aircraft, which was supposed to serve before Ju-87, but it fought the whole war.

          One of the main factors turned out to be its low weight and ability to operate from any unpaved, airy airfields, which for Russia turned out to be very important when other German planes, even the same Stucks. just stood on the belly in the mud.
          1. -2
            12 August 2016 11: 57
            the Germans laid out strips with a metal profile, accelerators were used to launch heavy bombers
            1. 0
              12 August 2016 18: 45
              Quote: Papandopulo
              the Germans laid out strips with a metal profile, accelerators were used to launch heavy bombers

              Let's just say this - it was practiced in an extremely small number of unpaved airfields in the occupied territory of the USSR.

              But what would rocket boosters use on the Eastern Front? I heard about this only in Europe ...
              1. 0
                13 August 2016 09: 33
                After that, he already ceased to be unpaved.
                Accelerators could be used in the west why?
                1. 0
                  13 August 2016 10: 16
                  Quote: Papandopulo
                  After that, he already ceased to be unpaved.
                  Accelerators could be used in the west why?

                  Steel plates were in short supply; there were few of them. Therefore, most airfields in the USSR were primers. And therefore, in spring or autumn, that aircraft, which had more concrete or additional primers at its disposal, received a greater advantage.

                  They were used to accelerate, for example, "Misteles", to lift supply gliders that flew to Rommel.
                  1. 0
                    13 August 2016 14: 34
                    The Germans had the least steel in short supply; these plates were normal.
                    In Russia, with its long distances and with its thaw, rocket boosters, on the contrary, were used more often than in the west and provided great advantages.
                    1. 0
                      15 August 2016 10: 18
                      Can you recall the use of a rocket accelerator in the USSR in real conditions, and not in testing?
                      When they tested them on the Yak, I had to sew up the entire tail with metal and change the tail wheel to a steel crutch. Nitric acid for the liquid propellant rocket engine in the USSR was issued on a receipt for liters, only for testing. Powder accelerators in the USSR were tested after the war and the capture of German technology.
                      1. 0
                        15 August 2016 19: 17
                        Powder boosters were on Katyushas. It's just difficult with a wooden-canvas plane.
                      2. 0
                        15 August 2016 19: 37
                        This is not a powder accelerator, but a powder propellant rocket engine.
                      3. 0
                        15 August 2016 19: 57
                        No difference.
                      4. 0
                        15 August 2016 20: 19
                        The engine and accelerator are a huge difference.
                      5. 0
                        16 August 2016 01: 00
                        Solid propellant rocket - no.
              2. 0
                15 August 2016 10: 15
                Missile boosters were used little. For Arado and for transport Goliath mainly.
                The Germans had few metal bands.
                In the USSR, they were supplied by the Americans, they were used until the 80s.
                1. 0
                  15 August 2016 19: 20
                  On the eastern front for piston bombers - everywhere. Especially in this very debauchery.
                  There were enough bands. They were delivered to Germany by the Swedes, or someone else through them.
                  1. 0
                    15 August 2016 19: 38
                    I haven’t met Germans in my memoirs. Only for transporters, Arado and towing heavy gliders.
                    1. 0
                      15 August 2016 19: 59
                      Why write about something everyday or secret?
                      1. 0
                        15 August 2016 20: 22
                        No one made a secret. Tests were not even carried out at the front either on the Yu-88 or on the Xe-111.
                        What a secret it is if transport vehicles with accelerators are described in memoirs and films full of documentaries and educational ones, as well as for the secret reconnaissance and reactive bomber Arado.
                      2. 0
                        16 August 2016 00: 58
                        The tests were before the war. The fact of the widespread use by the Germans of RATO on the eastern front from the Russian public now, with the aim of repeating the banquet, is being kept secret.
                      3. 0
                        16 August 2016 00: 58
                        The tests were before the war. The fact of the widespread use by the Germans of RATO on the eastern front from the Russian public now, with the aim of repeating the banquet, is being kept secret.
                      4. 0
                        16 August 2016 08: 43
                        And now why? NATO from the airfields kindly provided to them by the USSR in Poland and the Baltic gets to Tyumen and Omsk, and the rest from aircraft carriers from Turkey.
                        And no one is going to bomb their good.
                      5. 0
                        16 August 2016 13: 54
                        Then, so that when there is a hole in the middle of the strip, the Russian Air Force does not use them.
                      6. +1
                        16 August 2016 14: 27
                        They are used by NATO to the full extent of the program. The air force will not use them when.
                      7. 0
                        16 August 2016 17: 04
                        Who would doubt that you are in a trend ...
                      8. 0
                        16 August 2016 17: 11
                        And in the fall, I traveled to the Baltic states and Poland. So I saw all the former airfields. They work.
                        I’m not trending, but just writing about what I know for sure.
                        Neither Russia nor the HKS will be allowed into Europe.
                      9. 0
                        16 August 2016 17: 28
                        So quickly everyone managed to repair? Russia and so partly in Europe, of course, meant Russian airfields.
                        In the same way, Goering with Hitler was considered at one time.
                      10. The comment was deleted.
        2. +1
          12 August 2016 10: 33
          Quote: Papandopulo
          Yu-87 is an integral part of the blitzkrieg, he was mainly engaged in the destruction of the firing positions of anti-tank weapons (batteries of anti-tank guns) on the battlefield.

          Well, the ILs also did the same in 44-45 years - mowing VET.
          Isaev's emnip in "Bagration" it was
          1. +1
            12 August 2016 11: 26
            Comrade wrote
            Quote: Alex_59
            Ju-87 could not attack individual point and moving targets on the battlefield - tanks, machine gun nests, etc. There was no way at the time to ensure such precision bombing.

            and was wrong in that

            from diving with bombs, the Yu-87 easily attacked with diving, cannons from diving from moving dots, from tank attacks from diving, tankers quickly learned to ride in a zigzag, it was easier to get such a tank with FW-190 with bombs
            1. Alf
              +1
              12 August 2016 19: 29
              Quote: Papandopulo
              bombs made it easier to get such a tank with the FW-190

              Yeah, with a minimum speed of 190, more than the IL-2 and the complete absence of sights ...
              1. +1
                13 August 2016 09: 36
                And how were his sights worse than that of the Messerschmitt or IL-2?
                What you will not meet on this site ...
                Less was in the air defense fire zone, the tank was less likely to dodge the attack.
                1. Alf
                  0
                  13 August 2016 16: 04
                  Quote: Papandopulo
                  And how were his sights worse than that of the Messerschmitt or IL-2?

                  And what was the FOCKER BOMBRIDER?
                  Quote: Papandopulo
                  Less was in the air defense fire zone, the tank was less likely to dodge the attack.

                  And less likely to get. When the IL-10 went into the series, it turned out an interesting moment — the exact hit decreased compared to the IL-2. The casket opened with the simple-minimal speed of the IL-10 was higher than that of the IL-2. And the minimum salary of 190 was even higher, which is why the Germans bombed on the principle-To whom God will send.
                  1. 0
                    13 August 2016 17: 13
                    Well, there was one. Even the Messerschmitts flew with bombs, not just the Su-2?
                    FW-190 was developed immediately as a fighter-bomber.
                    The odds are ok, hit. And they could fight with enemy fighters like the Su-6.
                    1. +1
                      13 August 2016 18: 00
                      FV-190 was developed in many versions. The main was the struggle with strategic bombers.
                      And as a front-line bomber, he had a bomb load greater than that of the Il-4. I could take 1800 kg bomb.
                      1. +1
                        13 August 2016 18: 11
                        The basis was universalism
                      2. 0
                        13 August 2016 18: 16
                        There was a choice, both for engines and weapons.
                      3. 0
                        13 August 2016 18: 18
                        Quote: kara61
                        And as a front-line bomber, he had a bomb load greater than that of the Il-4. I could take 1800 kg bomb.

                        Yes, I myself could not believe it for a long time until I came across the test results. But this is only with concrete and special modifications.
                      4. 0
                        15 August 2016 10: 21
                        Yes, there was a special modification of the FV-190, which we considered a heavy fighter. And they took off from the concrete plane from 1800. But from 500 and from the ground. It was just that when the war moved beyond the USSR state border, the Germans had no problems with airfields. with hangars and caponiers. And when they left, they either destroyed or mined everything.
                  2. The comment was deleted.
      4. +1
        13 August 2016 16: 33
        Yu-87, first of all, is a plane for clearing the battlefield in front of tank wedges. Blitzkrieg gun. To do this, each battalion of the tank regiment and tank division had an aircraft commander and the Shtukasov group was on a direct connection and flew off at the first request. In PKKA, only through army or front headquarters.
        To destroy the firing points in a fortified position in the regiments-batteries and divisions-divisions of howitzers and rocket mortars.
        Look at the structure of the Wehrmacht TD and everything will become clear.
        IL-2s along the front line were very rare. There was no operational communication, and the accuracy was bad.
        Il-2 could not destroy a separate point object. And Yu-87, just for this the crews were designed and trained. The crews of attack aircraft were the elite of the Luftwaffe, unlike the Red Army, where the emphasis was on poverty and misunderstanding on the fighter. Not understanding the essence of the war in the air and the mission of the Air Force.
    3. +2
      12 August 2016 08: 16
      Ammunition guns EMNIP 12 shells. Boo-ha-ha.
      1. +2
        12 August 2016 08: 21
        Quote: EvilLion
        Ammunition guns EMNIP 12 shells. Boo-ha-ha.

        Well, this is when large calibers were put on the Ju-87 - 37 and 57 mm. And that's why they did 6-8 sorties per day.
        1. Alf
          0
          12 August 2016 19: 35
          Quote: Warrior2015
          Well, this is when the large caliber was placed on the Ju-87 - 37 and 57 mm.

          And when did they put the 87 mm on the Yu-57? The Germans in general, neither in the Luftwaffe, nor in the Panzerwaffe, nor in artillery had such a 57-mm caliber. It was 50 mm.
          Quote: Warrior2015
          And that's why they did 6-8 flights a day.

          And in our memoirs, the pilots wrote that after the 4-5 th departure in a day, not only did their mechanics get out of the cabs, they also wrote that on the 4 th and, especially, the 5 th fly out, there’s nothing I thought.
          Apparently, those chances that flew out on 8 once a day were terminators.
          1. +1
            12 August 2016 20: 45
            Quote: Alf
            And in our memoirs, the pilots wrote that after the 4-5 th departure in a day, not only did their mechanics get out of the cabs, they also wrote that on the 4 th and, especially, the 5 th fly out, there’s nothing I thought.
            Apparently, those chances that flew out on 8 once a day were terminators.


            Firstly, for a number of reasons, German planes were easier to fly and, due to certain things, more comfortable during the flight.

            Secondly, yes, only especially gifted "pitching" like Rudel did 6-8 sorties a day.
            1. Alf
              +1
              13 August 2016 16: 06
              Quote: Warrior2015
              Secondly, yes, only especially gifted "pitching" like Rudel did 6-8 sorties a day.

              And some true Aryans did as many as 11 sorties ...
          2. +1
            12 August 2016 23: 51
            And also, after each departure, including after 6-7, one gentleman assured that the Hans filled out a questionnaire report of 21 single points, where they thoroughly painted all their victories.
            1. Alf
              0
              13 August 2016 16: 10
              Quote: Svidetel 45
              And also, after each departure, including after 6-7, one gentleman assured that the Hans filled out a questionnaire report of 21 single points, where they thoroughly painted all their victories.

              So he showed fingers from the cockpit, and the groundworkers filled out a questionnaire. Division of labor.
            2. +1
              13 August 2016 17: 52
              Quote: Svidetel 45
              And also, after each departure, including after 6-7, one gentleman assured that the hans filled out a questionnaire-report from 21 of one point

              Actually, the combat flight of a "piece" is very different from the flight of a fighter - in the first case it is just the delivery of bombs along the route, in the second - an air battle.

              Physically, it was easier to make a combat flight on the Ju-87 than a fighter pilot.
    4. +3
      12 August 2016 10: 51
      Quote: Mytholog
      Well why. Judging by the memoir literature, the Ju-87 was quite able to cope with this role.

      The role of the attack aircraft was not performed by the Junkers, but by the FW-190 in the assault versions. They were well armored and armed for such tasks. The Americans and the British went the same way, having adapted fighters suitable for these attacks. This was not done from a good life. Well, the guys didn’t succeed in creating something like IL-2. As for Henschel, the car was not bad, tenacious and easy to pilot, but weak armaments determined the range of basic tasks - the war with the partisans.
      1. 0
        12 August 2016 10: 59
        Quote: Verdun
        The role of the attack aircraft was not performed by the Junkers, but by the FW-190 in the assault versions.

        The Germans played the role of stormtroopers by everyone and sundry - and JaBo Me-109 and Me-110, and Henscheli, and Fokker.

        Quote: Verdun
        As for Henschel, the car was not bad, tenacious and easy to pilot, but weak armaments determined the range of basic tasks - the war with the partisans.
        In general, the article clearly noted that Hs-123 only switched over to these functions in the 1944 year, when it became impossible to fly even with a large escort on the Eastern Front, and so - from 1936 to 1943 the years are a front-line daylight diving bomber and attack aircraft.
      2. +1
        13 August 2016 18: 02
        Yes, no one needed this freak-IL-2. The Germans tested them in the 41st and, laughing, sent them to the dump. Like the Americans.
  2. +4
    12 August 2016 06: 48
    Thus, a successful design and skillful tactics of action allowed this, in fact, created by an outdated scheme and released in a very small number of aircraft to actively fight almost until the very end of the war, even though there was no side-shooter for the defense of the rear hemisphere (which was considered almost catastrophic lack of early IL-2 series).

    Strange passage. Those. the author believes that the absence of the arrow on the first IL-2 was not so critical? Here, in general, a comparison with IL-2 is inappropriate. And the author himself noted the reason for this:
    skillful tactics of action allowed this, in fact, created according to an outdated scheme and launched in a very small number of aircraft, to actively engage almost until the very end of the war
    Those. for him, the lack of a rear shooter was just as critical as for the Po-2. Since there was no need to stop the tank armada, and hang over the front line in the conditions of complete domination in the air of enemy aircraft and the saturation of the front edge with anti-aircraft weapons. By the way, back in 1943, there were squadrons armed with P-5, P-Z, I-15, which were also very successfully used, but it was thanks to
    skillful tactics
    as nightly harassing bombers
    1. -3
      12 August 2016 07: 14
      Quote: qwert
      Those. the author believes that the absence of the arrow on the first IL-2 was not so critical? There is generally inappropriate comparison with IL-2

      We can say that in general, yes, and the German attack aircraft, which were all single, without a gunner, prove it. IL-2 problems were different, including use.

      By the way, in my opinion, both in terms of armament and bomb load and combat survivability, the Hs-123 was comparable to the Il-2 (both machines had 2 rifle-caliber machine guns and 2 20-mm guns, IL-2 400- 600 kg.bomb, for Hs-123 - 250-450 kg.)

      Quote: qwert
      By the way, back in 1943, there were squadrons armed with P-5, P-Z, I-15, which were also very successfully used, but thanks to skillful tactics as nightly harassing bombers
      I consider the cardinal difference from the aircraft you mentioned that until the summer-fall of the 1944, the Hs-123 were used as daytime attack aircraft of the Eastern Front and somehow, with their minuscule release, were able to survive.
      1. +3
        12 August 2016 10: 55
        Quote: Warrior2015
        By the way, in my opinion, in terms of armament and bomb load and combat survivability, the Hs-123 was comparable to the Il-2 (both machines had 2 rifle-caliber machine guns and 2 20-mm cannons, and the Il-2 400- 600 kg. Bomb, for Hs-123 - 250-450 kg.)
        And where did you find the standard cannon weapons at Henschel? Underwing containers with MG-FF cannons were hung instead of bombs, but not with them.
        1. +1
          12 August 2016 11: 04
          Quote: Verdun
          Underwing containers with MG-FF cannons were hung instead of bombs, but not with them.

          Read carefully, this is exactly what the article says (with the suspension of machine guns - either a rifle or a large caliber) Henschel-123 was able to take bombs as well.

          After the alterations in 1941-42. on the option Hs-123 B, and later, including with a reinforced engine, 20-mm guns or heavy machine guns were mounted (mainly in the front-line Luftwaffe aircraft workshops) already on a permanent basis at the base of the wings and Henscheli were able to have at least heavy weapons small, but a load of bombs.

          In general, such a picture emerges - Hs-123 as a light attack aircraft and light dive, cooler than Po-2 and P-Zet, but weaker than IL-2.
          1. +2
            12 August 2016 11: 16
            Quote: Warrior2015
            In general, such a picture emerges - Hs-123 as a light attack aircraft and light dive, cooler than Po-2 and P-Zet, but weaker than IL-2.

            Po-2 was a night bomber, but not a ground attack aircraft. The tactics of use are completely different.
            Quote: Warrior2015
            Read carefully, this is exactly what the article says

            And I did not write about the article, but wrote about your comment. On it a slightly different impression is created.
          2. Alf
            0
            12 August 2016 19: 41
            Quote: Warrior2015
            Hs-123 as a light attack aircraft and light dive, cooler than Po-2 and P-Zet,

            Horses mixed in a bunch, people ...
            PO-2 has never been a ground attack aircraft and a dive. PO-2 was a night bomber, and this is a completely different song. You do not compare Ferrari and Volkswagen Golf.
            1. 0
              13 August 2016 11: 32
              The Po-2 was a training aircraft adapted for bombing on the knees of technicians. From despair, it became a bomber. 200 kg in overload and complete insecurity.
  3. +2
    12 August 2016 07: 00
    Everything ingenious is very simple.
    1. aba
      +1
      12 August 2016 08: 23
      Everything ingenious is very simple.

      The case when the old horse does not spoil the furrows.
      1. +1
        12 August 2016 08: 30
        Quote: aba
        The case when the old horse does not spoil the furrows.

        And it got to the point that these broken "old horses" were searched for in dumps and abandoned warehouses, urgently restored and sent to the Eastern Front.
  4. +1
    12 August 2016 07: 25
    "Recall that the offensive armament of the Il-2 also consisted of two machine guns and two 23-mm cannons), however, in this case, the combat mission was usually carried out without a bomb load" - that is, do you want to say either shell cartridges or bombs? It seems like machine guns with a cannon "in the base" were on silt 2, in the memoirs of veterans they usually write that if the situation allowed for the target they made several runs - bombs, RS, and then combed machine-gun and cannon?
    "Therefore, an all-metal glider in itself was a huge and vital plus for an attack aircraft (recall that the famous Il-2 was, in general, a half-wooden plane" - isn't the second half of the Il2 an all-metal glider? Or we have a concept of a glider as a constructive Are the aircraft parts different?
    1. +1
      12 August 2016 07: 43
      Quote: vietnam7
      however, in this case, a combat mission was usually carried out without a bomb load "- that is, do you want to say either cartridges for the rack or bombs?

      Read more carefully - we are talking about Hs-123, not IL-2, and in this case there was a choice - either to attach underwing containers with guns, or bombs (if underwing containers with machine guns were taken, then a small load of bombs was also taken).
      1. 0
        12 August 2016 08: 03
        indeed, I didn’t notice the brackets right away - I ask for apologies. What about a glider?
  5. +1
    12 August 2016 07: 36
    I-15 and I-153, which, although they were created as fighters, but by and large in the late 30s were used as attack aircraft.. In 1935, it was decided to stop the serial production of the I-15 fighter. I-1937bis (I-15) was prepared for serial production by the fall of 152 ... I-152 and I-153 were actively used in the Great Patriotic War as an attack aircraft until 1942. Especially, they showed themselves in the battle for the Caucasus. . in mountainous conditions ..
  6. +1
    12 August 2016 07: 47
    Quote: parusnik
    I-1937bis (I-15) was prepared for serial production by the fall of 152 ... I-152 and I-153 were actively used in the Great Patriotic War as an attack aircraft before 1942

    I will say more, long before the Battle of the Caucasus, these Soviet aircraft were already used in Spain as attack aircraft, where they could meet with the Hs-123, which showed itself there for the first time.
    1. +1
      12 August 2016 11: 13
      And on Khalkhin-Gol .. It was precisely on them that experiments were conducted with RS .. But these planes were used and for their intended purpose, fighters .. B.F.Safonov began his service on I-152, met the war on I-16..I not bad I must say ..
  7. +3
    12 August 2016 07: 57
    Henschel 123 on the Eastern Front in flight.
    1. 0
      12 August 2016 10: 03
      Quote: bionik
      Henschel 123 on the Eastern Front in flight.

      This is a fairly well-known photo, apparently a photo of the summer of 1941 year - judging by the open flashlight and camouflage?
  8. +4
    12 August 2016 08: 55
    Quote: vietnam7
    Or do we have the concept of a glider as a structural component of an airplane different?

    These are different things. IL2 had a mixed design. An armored box in front of the fuselage, as part of a glider power pack, a partially metallic steel fuselage kit, and a partially metal wing power kit. The tail section is almost entirely made of wood, as is the wing console.
    This scheme was dominant in the USSR for relatively light aircraft (fighters, attack aircraft). All-metal we made only bombers. And then, in separate periods, part of the metal parts on the same Pe2 were made of wood.
    The deficit of duralumin affected both in the prewar years and during the war, as well as the general level of industrial development and the task of mass production. The designers simply had no choice but to make a mixed construction.
    By the way, the USSR was the only country among the participants in the war who built fighters mainly from wood. Even Romanians made their IARs all-metal.
    1. +2
      12 August 2016 10: 08
      Quote: Yakut
      By the way, the USSR was the only country among the participants in the war who built fighters mainly from wood. Even Romanians made their IARs all-metal.

      This is a funny misconception that Hungary and Romania were somehow weak countries - for their level they had absolutely nothing in the military industry.
      1. +1
        12 August 2016 14: 24
        I am waiting for a fascinating story about the successes of tank building in Romania, with their purchases of Czech mega-tankettes and ersatz-self-propelled guns, - and Hungary, which for almost two years copied the Swedish light tank for "its" "Toldi", then for more than two years mastered the Czech medium tank for "their" "Turanians" and as a result almost caught up with the quality of their tanks the great tank-building power Italy laughing
    2. +1
      12 August 2016 10: 29
      Lack of varnish for thin duralumin; it was not supplied from Brazil to the USSR. Only to the Nazis and to Western countries.
      1. -1
        12 August 2016 10: 42
        Quote: Papandopulo
        Lack of varnish for thin duralumin; it was not supplied from Brazil to the USSR. Only to the Nazis and to Western countries.

        It was possible to find an alternative if you wanted and wisely - there was no natural rubber, an artificial one was invented.
        1. +2
          12 August 2016 11: 04
          At that level of chemistry, no. This problem was slightly circumvented only with the advent of anodized aluminum.

          Synthetic rubber was not suitable for everything, so natural was also bought by everyone.
    3. +5
      12 August 2016 11: 00
      Quote: Yakut
      By the way, the USSR was the only country among the participants in the war who built fighters mainly from wood. Even Romanians made their IARs all-metal.

      Is it okay that the He-162, by the way - reactive, was made of delta wood? And the Mosquito was also partly made of wood? This is so, for example, since there were many aircraft in the construction of which wood was used during WWII.
      1. 0
        12 August 2016 11: 06
        Quote: Verdun
        The same He-162, by the way - jet, was made of delta wood?

        "Without fish and crayfish-fish". When creating the "Salamander", the goal was to use civilian capacities and non-scarce materials (including, for example, furniture factories and kettle factories) for defense purposes.
        1. +3
          12 August 2016 11: 20
          Quote: Warrior2015
          "Without fish and crayfish-fish".

          Is this "Mosquito" cancer? By the way, delta wood, as noted by many pilots, had a significant plus. When pierced by shells and bullets, there were no torn edges left on it, which reduced the aerodynamics of the aircraft. And it was easier to patch up small holes - they sealed it up and that's it.
          1. 0
            12 August 2016 14: 25
            Quote: Verdun
            Is this "Mosquito" cancer?

            You at least read what the speech is about. And it was only about "Salamander".
            1. 0
              12 August 2016 14: 59
              Quote: Warrior2015
              Do you even read what it is about

              Well, actually it all started with the fact that I responded to
              Quote: Yakut
              By the way, the USSR was the only country among the participants in the war who built fighters mainly from wood. Even Romanians made their IARs all-metal.
          2. +1
            12 August 2016 20: 36
            The delta wood disappeared on June 22, 41. Lavochkin and Shakhurin stabbed Stalin. All the resin for impregnation was supplied from Germany. During the war, aircraft were made from raw wood.
          3. +1
            13 August 2016 11: 25
            The only plus of the delta-wood is that its strength due to the plasticizer for bending and tearing increased, and this is a weight saving. Well, it did not burn like a pine tree.
            But only resin came ONLY from Germany, so after the war in the USSR planes were not built from the delta wood. This was one of the articles of accusation of Shakhurin in the 46th, he sat on the bunk. Lavochkin was saved by the fact that the planes had to make missiles , passed as a witness. And Novikov and his headquarters also sat down for deceiving the Government of the USSR.
      2. Alf
        +1
        12 August 2016 19: 44
        Quote: Verdun
        Is it okay that the He-162, by the way - reactive, was made of delta wood? And the Mosquito was also partly made of wood? This is so, for example, since there were many aircraft in the construction of which wood was used during WWII.

        And TA-154.
      3. -3
        12 August 2016 19: 54
        A mosquito from balsa was glued to reduce radar visibility. This is not LaGG and Yak from raw pine.
        1. Alf
          +2
          12 August 2016 20: 33
          Quote: kara61
          A mosquito from balsa was glued to reduce radar visibility. This is not LaGG and Yak from raw pine.

          What a news ! It turns out that balsa and pine have different radio visibility!
          De Havilland applied balm due to its low specific gravity.
          1. 0
            12 August 2016 20: 52
            They began to use TREE at them because of a decrease in radar, and not RADIO!, Visibility. Balsa has a small specific gravity, therefore they did not need to use raw pine.
            But Pine-linen Yak, LaGG were so well detected even without radars. The Germans hardly used radars in the East. Why not. The bombers flew in the shortest time. The fighters covered the bombers. Fly and shoot down. What they did.
            1. +2
              13 August 2016 00: 10
              But with all their vaunted "mosquito" and radar, the British could not defend London, but the "flashes" and "yaks" made of raw wood did not allow the vaunted German bombers to bomb Moscow, in any case they suffered incomparably less.
              1. +1
                13 August 2016 19: 59
                It will not compare the five days of operation of the Luftwaffe FRONT aviation and the rocket attacks of London.
                Mosquito in the version of a fighter? Something new. He is a scout and a night bomber. 11 pieces have been interrupted for the whole war. But London’s radar and air defense did not bomb it.
                The Germans did not have a goal to bomb Moscow. Enterprises were evacuated, and in the immediate rear the Germans gouged them to zero.
                And they showed how to bomb the city with the example of Stalingrad, Murmansk, Arkhangelsk, the sinking of most of the Baltic Fleet and the complete paralysis of the Black Sea with the sinking of dozens of ships and ships.
                But how many ships drank the Red Army Air Force? If 251 convoys were carried out during the evacuation of the Wehrmacht from the Crimea, then they lost ONE !!! ship. Here and efficiency. And about Kurland and Prussia it was forbidden to speak in our Akamedia and whisper. Such a shame the Air Force did not know any country.
    4. +2
      13 August 2016 00: 01
      And the British have Mosquito? Completely wooden.
      Quote: Yakut
      By the way, the USSR was the only country among the participants in the war who built fighters mainly from wood
      1. 0
        13 August 2016 00: 07
        And the British have Mosquito? Completely wooden
        He was not a fighter. Moreover, the only barrels are personal crew pistols.
  9. +6
    12 August 2016 09: 39
    For many years I have read harsh criticism of the IL-2, for its water-cooled engine, for the dubious booking scheme, for weak defensive weapons.
    But as a rule, the authors do not take into account that the main losses of Ila suffered from the fire of the memory. I doubt very much that under the same conditions Genschel could work so effectively. It was not in vain that the Germans preferred, for lack of a better one, to adapt the 190th, which had a strong and heavy fuselage, initially powerful cannon armament, an air-cooled engine and had reserves for increasing mass. The rest of the 129th type attack aircraft are not taken seriously, according to pilots' reviews, there was an extremely vile, sluggish and uncomfortable aircraft.
    We also had an alternative from Sukhoi, perhaps even better. There was a later IL-10 with a finished reservation, which served until the end of the 50s, but in fact it is already evolutionary aircraft. But the pioneer was Il-2, as a concept of a high-speed armored attack aircraft operating from low altitudes. Of course, with the inherent disadvantages of the first such machines.
    1. +1
      12 August 2016 10: 29
      Quote: kugelblitz
      But as a rule, the authors do not take into account that the main losses of Ila suffered from the fire of the memory. I doubt very much that under the same conditions Genschel could work so effectively.

      Indeed, the Red Army had very few small-caliber anti-aircraft artillery, while the units of the Wehrmacht had the highest saturation with them (including even self-propelled).

      After the war, the lesson was really learned - this is where the "Shilki" and "Tunguska" and so on went. useful things.
      1. +1
        13 August 2016 00: 19
        This is the real reason for the high losses of the Ilov, which had to "hang" over the trenches and firing positions of the enemy, saturated with MZA, in comparison with the German assault aircraft, and not because they were very poor in their survivability, as they want here some assure us. Moreover, the absence of a shooter at the first stage also increased their losses from enemy fighters unjustifiably.
    2. +1
      12 August 2016 19: 56
      Ilyushin and Il-20 tried to get into the Air Force, but then the stripes stood on their hind legs, remembering the losses from the flying coffin of Il-2 and the miracle of aerodynamics of Il-4.
      1. 0
        12 August 2016 20: 38
        Quote: kara61
        Ilyushin and Il-20 tried to get into the Air Force, but then the stripes stood on their hind legs, remembering the losses from the flying coffin of Il-2 and the miracle of aerodynamics of Il-4.

        Well, so you are, IL-4 was at least some sort of torpedo bomber for example.
        1. -2
          12 August 2016 20: 53
          Zero. And because of the plane itself, and because of horseradish torpedoes. It had too much speed to drop. And the Italians sold us old torpedoes, from the First World War.
  10. +3
    12 August 2016 10: 08
    The "survivability" of German aviation on the "battlefield" on the eastern front is explained not so much by the uniqueness and peculiarity of the design and its execution, but rather by the almost complete absence of air defense of our forward units. Yes, our troops were trained and in fact used a kind of self-defense, firing at planes from infantry weapons with volleys or separately, and the strength of such fire is always noted in their memoirs by the surviving German pilots, but they also note that such fire was of little danger. since it was not aimed and small-caliber bullets did not bring much damage when hitting the plane. In addition, the reasons that the German aircraft felt at ease above our front line were the following: 1) extremely weak saturation of troops with radar systems and neglect of them until the very end of the war. The same Novikov writes that the aviation chiefs did not trust the radar until the very end of the war and relied on VNOS posts, which recorded aircraft that had already flown, that is, there was no time for a reaction to German aircraft flying to strike, and these aircraft were intercepted only on the way back when they have already "completed" their task.
    2) the absence in the ranks of the advancing and defending forces of units of "forward gunners" of aviation, who would direct aviation operations directly from the "trench".
    3) excessive "bureaucratization" - a complex chain of transmission of requirements and decision-making of forward military units to challenge aviation for their support and protection.
    4) the almost complete absence of MZA in forward units for military air defense. Oddly enough, in the presence of such effective air defense weapons as the DShK large-caliber machine gun before the war, the USSR did not adopt (although they were developed) multi-barreled (2 and 4) air defense installations for use on the land front ... ours "came to their senses" only when they began to receive lendleut multi-barreled installations based on Browning machine guns, but that was already 1944 ... About such "defenders" of the front line troops as the German 20-mm "flaks" of the "erlikon" type rheinmetal "our troops could only dream of them until the very end of the war ...
    1. +1
      12 August 2016 10: 37
      Quote: Monster_Fat
      ) the almost complete absence of MZA in the advanced units for military air defense. Oddly enough, if before the war there was such an effective air defense weapon as a large-caliber machine gun DShK, the USSR did not adopt (although they developed) multi-barrel (2's and 4's) air defense systems for use on the land front.

      The DShK was adopted by the 39 in February, firstly, and secondly, nobody sniffed, the 2 and 3,7 cm anti-aircraft guns, the basis of the German low-caliber anti-aircraft defense, were high-tech for the USSR, but they could not master the same 20mm machine purchased under a license from the USSR.
    2. +1
      12 August 2016 10: 40
      Quote: Monster_Fat
      Our troops could only dream of such "defenders" of the front-line troops as the German 20-mm "flacs" of the "Erlikon-Reinmetall" type until the very end of the war ...

      Well, the Allies supplied something, but on the whole, of course, your post convincingly shows why the German attack aircraft, with its small size and traditionally insufficient fighter cover, felt quite freely over our front line almost until the end of the war.
    3. +4
      12 August 2016 11: 06
      Quote: Monster_Fat
      Strange as it may seem, if before the war there was such an effective air defense weapon as a large-caliber machine gun DShK, the USSR did not adopt (although they developed) multi-barrel (2 and 4) air defense systems for use on the land front ...

      So with DShK there was one big problem - it was too complicated in production. The difficulty can be indirectly estimated by the price: for 1939 "Machine gun 12,7 mm (DShK) arr. 1938 with a set of spare parts"cost as much as 12000 rubles - while"45 mm anti-tank gun mod. 1937 with a set of spare parts in laying boxes"cost 14200 rubles.
      As a result, at the beginning of the war, the Red Army had about 2000 heavy machine guns on all types of installations. And about 9000 of them were released during the war.

      It was possible to develop multi-barrel ZPUs. But there would be nothing to arm them.

      By the way, in mid-1944 the army was to receive the first 14,5 mm ZPU with a machine gun Vladimirov. It was controlled by the LPS. But plant number 2 disrupted both the initial and extended terms.
  11. +2
    12 August 2016 10: 17
    The author "kisses the fascists passionately" and deserves a minus. Especially for such a historical "pearl": .... delivered to the Spanish Communists from the USSR ... Personally, I was always sure that the USSR was helping the Spanish Republic ... I do not understand the authors who come out drooling meticulously disassembling the dead fascists' equipment and weapons.
    1. -1
      12 August 2016 20: 39
      The USSR didn’t help, but sold how the money ran out, supplies stopped — the Spanish ships took it, and the sailors were put into camps, they went to the 50s and went home. What do you think. What did they call the USSR then? And Franco gave them pensions and compensations paid for the years spent in the camps.
  12. Fox
    +1
    12 August 2016 10: 23
    strange comparison: a German 20mm gun converted from a machine gun and a 23mm full-fledged Il2 gun (I'm talking about ammunition, if that).
    1. +1
      12 August 2016 10: 33
      Quote: Fox
      : 20mm gun from a German converted from a machine gun and 23 mm full gun from Il2

      A huge number of Il-2s were armed with ShVAK cannons, which were also "converted from a machine gun". The 23-mm VYa of course were somewhat more effective than the MG-151, but on the whole we can say that it was equivalent.

      The Hs-123 in the underwing kits were mainly equipped with 20-mm MG-FF guns, which in my opinion were weaker than the MG-151, and ShVAKOV, and of course VYA.
      1. +3
        12 August 2016 11: 32
        Quote: Warrior2015
        The Hs-123 in the underwing kits were mainly equipped with 20-mm MG-FF guns, which in my opinion were weaker than the MG-151, and ShVAKOV, and of course VYA.

        Ahem ... it's just weaker than a ShVAK gun is hard to find. Because Shpitalny was well aware of the difficulties of the industry with automatic guns - and made a 20-mm gun from the 12,7 mm ShVAK machine gun (which he himself had in the ancestors of ShKAS) for the most painless transition. The payoff for this was a cartridge with a light and short projectile - the most low-powered of all, and even possessing poor ballistics (it quickly lost speed - due to which, by the way, ShVAK practically did not find application in air defense).

        This gun even according to the documents passed as a 20-mm machine gun.
        1. 0
          12 August 2016 14: 14
          Quote: Alexey RA
          Ahem ... it's just weaker than a ShVAK gun is hard to find.

          Well, I must say that the MG-FF with its characteristics is also not an example of perfection, to put it mildly, therefore it roughly corresponds to the SHVAKU, and therefore, if possible, they immediately tried to replace it with the MG-151.
      2. Alf
        0
        12 August 2016 20: 02
        Quote: Warrior2015
        23 mm VYa of course were somewhat more effective than the MG-151, but in general it can be said that it was equivalent.

        These guns were far from equivalent.
        Compare the velocity of the shells (for VW at 100-200 m / s more) and the mass of the shell.
        1. 0
          12 August 2016 20: 51
          Quote: Alf
          These guns were far from equivalent.
          Compare the velocity of the shells (for VW at 100-200 m / s more) and the mass of the shell.


          I agree, MG-151 is better than VY. laughing belay
          In an air battle. Since the rate of fire, which means the probability of planting several shells at the target, is higher.

          The velocity of the projectile, affecting armor penetration, does not have a special role here.

          The only plus for VJ is the weight of the projectile. As I said, they are approximately equivalent.
          drinks
  13. +3
    12 August 2016 10: 31
    Quote: Warrior2015
    Quote: Yakut
    By the way, the USSR was the only country among the participants in the war who built fighters mainly from wood. Even Romanians made their IARs all-metal.

    This is a funny misconception that Hungary and Romania were somehow weak countries - for their level they had absolutely nothing in the military industry.

    And I am not mistaken about the level of development of industry in Romania, Hungary and other Hitler satellites. But in any case, Romania is difficult to attribute to the leading aviation powers, which the USSR undoubtedly belonged to.
    As for the criticism of IL2, most critics see it as a separate platform and do not take into account the concept of aviation used in our army and the general situation in the country and the army, the level of development of industry.
    Technically, yes, probably not the best battlefield airplane in the world. But its shortcomings were compensated by mass production, ease of piloting and operation, competent use, well, at least in the second half of the war.
    It is necessary to evaluate not just a plane, but a plane as part of the armed forces, where it performs its functions according to the accepted concept.
  14. +1
    12 August 2016 10: 33
    << It may seem a little offensive to the Russian reader, but the United States for most of the 20th century was the leading country in the field of aircraft construction. And at the dawn of the 1930s, it was the Americans who made the first experiments in the field of dive bombers with the functions of an attack aircraft, although the first biplanes-attack aircraft appeared in the First World War. >>
    It is by chance that these "American designers" were not I. Sikorsky, A. Seversky, A. Kartvelli.
    1. +1
      12 August 2016 13: 27
      Another thing is surprising: a specialist must treat as a medical fact that since the beginning of the XNUMXth century, all critical technologies (including, and perhaps, first of all, in aviation) have been "produced" in the United States, and not anywhere else. What does not reach mass production in the US is sometimes incorporated into the designs of "third party" manufacturers.
      1. +4
        12 August 2016 13: 53
        Quote: iouris
        It is by chance that these "American designers" were not I. Sikorsky, A. Seversky, A. Kartvelli.

        Unfortunately, these are all American aircraft designers, not Russian ones.
        1. +1
          12 August 2016 19: 11
          Sikorsky as an aircraft designer really began in Russia. Unfolded in full force already in the States, yes.

          Prokofiev-Seversky began his career as a designer only after emigration, already in the USA.
          Kartveli began design activity in France, turned around in the United States.

          Therefore, only Sikorsky can be considered a Russian aircraft designer, and even then with reservations. The rest are purely American (albeit of Russian origin) and Franco-American (albeit Georgian).
    2. +1
      12 August 2016 14: 42
      Quote: Amurets
      It is by chance that these "American designers" were not I. Sikorsky, A. Seversky, A. Kartvelli.

      They are including. But even before they appeared in the States, the United States was among the leading industrial powers, and tsarist Russia was incomparably ahead of that. Subsequently, the leading US aviation companies were already making their products, some by the end of WWI, some before their start, and on their own engines - and in pre-Soviet Russia, aircraft engines were almost all of foreign design, most of them of foreign production.

      So the Russian emigrants did not create the US aviation industry, as some especially talented people like to say, but have joined the already existing and highly developed one.
    3. -1
      12 August 2016 20: 01
      And they are the same - American designers, and not sitting in prisons and sharashkas, or even their colleagues who were shot, who were not smart enough to escape from the "empire of good"
      1. +2
        13 August 2016 00: 32
        Even. if they were sitting and working not in "sharages", but in the Kremlin, this would not have changed absolutely anything, because after 10 years of industrialization it was impossible to catch up with the country that was already building skyscrapers at the beginning of the 20th century, and 90% lived in Russia under thatched roofs.
        1. -2
          13 August 2016 20: 04
          Purely soviet logic. They themselves destroyed everything and began to look for the guilty.
      2. 0
        15 August 2016 19: 13
        Sharazhka is a common closed, there were some kind of convicts there.
        Those who didn’t go before the war were quickly found by local undisclosed Trotskyists or the same foreign agents and destroyed, as well as their family members.
        1. 0
          15 August 2016 19: 24
          Yeah, Trotskyist Polikarpov. Bartini, Myasischev. Arkhangelsky. Glushko. Tupolev correctly sat for theft and denunciation.
          Shot by Langemak. Kleimenov and hundreds of others
          And then in the 41st, technicians and engineers rushed to look.
          You think before you write.
          In the USSR it was worse than under serfdom.
          By decree of June 26.06, .40, an 8-hour working day was introduced, and weekends and holidays were canceled.
          And after a year 26.06.41/1/3 added working hours of XNUMX-XNUMX hours.
          800 grams of bread with sawdust on a work card and paste for lunch. Moreover, it was not always possible to buy cards. And in the village there weren’t any cards, they fed on a swan.
          They would have sent you to denounce a neighbor who needed your wife’s fur coat, and during interrogation you would admit to working for Colombian intelligence in an hour.
          But, since you wouldn’t just shoot any specialist, that’s all. And a family like CSIR in camps for 15-20 years.
          1. 0
            15 August 2016 19: 32
            Almost every one of those who sat after 1937 sat at work; this has already been sucked a hundred times.
            But then they didn’t shoot all who should be, for example Khrushchev ...
            1. 0
              15 August 2016 19: 40
              Khrushchev then shot, or rather signed both the workers in Novocherkassk and the prisoners who knew about him.
              With a mustachioed and sat without guilt and shot. The blood regime did not end in the 37th, just changed the sign.
              1. 0
                15 August 2016 19: 52
                1937 they shot those Kabbalists who were shot before. Therefore, the opposite has changed.
            2. 0
              15 August 2016 19: 50
              And if there is no specialist, then no one asked him to become a parasite.
              Even depending on the damage done, he is going to cut down the forest or ...
              1. 0
                15 August 2016 20: 25
                Is it Langemak, or Bartini, Glushko and Myasishchev — not any experts? Or is our best aircraft designer Polikarpov, who spent half his life in scoop prisons?
                You have definitely chosen a nickname-Popandopulo.
                1. 0
                  16 August 2016 00: 56
                  Have they all been shot except Langemak?
                  The "scoop" recognizes the garbage.
                  1. 0
                    16 August 2016 08: 47
                    Thousands of others were shot. Then they weren’t enough. After the repressions of the 36-39s, industrial production in the USSR fell by 20-39%, and the quality deteriorated significantly. Read the reports of GAU military representatives on the 92nd plant and reports on the acceptance of submarines at factory 11 in Gorky.
                    And it’s not sweet to be in prison. Do you want to try 30 people in a 200 local cell?
                    1. 0
                      16 August 2016 13: 53
                      1936 was until 1937, wrecking did not immediately decline.
                      Is there really fit whatman and culman together with Ivan?
  15. 0
    12 August 2016 12: 52
    Excuse me, but do you really believe that 50% of the alleged non-combat losses of IL-2 during the war were really non-combat? [/ Quote]
    And I also very much doubt that 50% (?!) of the IL-2's losses are "non-combat".
    1. 0
      12 August 2016 13: 24
      This "figure" does not contradict scientific theory, because when flying in WWI, pilots try to minimize the likelihood of combat and non-combat losses.
  16. +2
    12 August 2016 13: 34
    For the first time I met with an article on the massive use of this Luftwaffe aircraft. If the information given in the article is true, then the article deserves the highest praise from people who are interested in the history of aviation.
  17. 0
    12 August 2016 15: 11
    It’s good that the Germans did not reveal the high potential of this machine. Massive, with a more powerful engine and weapons, this all-metal and well-controlled aircraft would bring a lot of trouble ...
    1. 0
      12 August 2016 18: 19
      Quote: tomatokin
      the Germans did not reveal the high potential of this machine. Massive, with a more powerful engine and weapons, this all-metal and well-controlled aircraft would bring a lot of trouble ...

      The Germans revealed that, but they were answered by the insistent requests of the front-line commanders to resume mass production of Hs-123 - now we will give you another wunderwaffle in the amount of as many as two units and you and it will unfold ...
  18. +2
    12 August 2016 15: 49
    Thus, a successful design and skillful tactics of action allowed this, in fact, created by an outdated scheme and released in a very small number of aircraft to actively fight almost until the very end of the war, even though there was no side-shooter for the defense of the rear hemisphere (which was considered almost catastrophic lack of early IL-2 series).

    Respect to the author of the article. The aircraft, obsolete in all respects, turned out to be in demand. But! There are nuances. How much is this all-metal aircraft, for which there is also no production capacity? Surely not very cheap. But our "outdated" and cheap Po-2, completely unsuitable for combat use, but finding its niche in battle, was produced in mass production and was successfully used throughout the war. For some reason, the German "gloomy genius" did not think of the military use of at least its analogue Po-2 - "Storha", but tried throughout the war to rivet the wunderwales, starting with tanks ("Panthers" and "Tigers") and ending in aviation - jet aircraft. However, the nation's "exceptionalism" failed.
    1. 0
      12 August 2016 18: 50
      Quote: surovts.valery
      The aircraft, obsolete in all respects, turned out to be in demand. But! There are nuances. How much is this all-metal aircraft, for which there is also no production capacity? Surely not very cheap. But our "outdated" and cheap Po-2, completely unsuitable for combat use, but found its niche in combat,

      I have already said that it is wrong to compare the Hs-123 with the Po-2, the Germans had, for example, the same "storms" or Hs-126s of this level. But the Hs-123, which was, as it were, the predecessor of the "pieces", it is more correct to compare with the Il-2 (which, of course, he was inferior in combat capabilities (but not all - in particular, he knew how to dive), but carried - in percentage comparison - much smaller losses) ...
    2. +1
      12 August 2016 20: 05
      Storch is a connected aircraft with a small 50-meter take-off run. The Germans had enough planes, and the Po-2 had to be adapted. 200 kg was transported to the load.
      Jet planes showed themselves well against the Fortresses, they did not plan to use them for the plywood of the Eastern Front. Tigers and panthers are the best-in-class tanks. And they filled so many of our rattling chariots that the rear in three shifts did not have time to replenish the losses.
      1. +3
        13 August 2016 00: 46
        That is why we ended the war in Berlin, and not in Moscow, that you were doing "piece goods", and you didn’t have enough brains to understand that for a total war and for a mass army, you need a technological enough weapon, you rejoice in technical tricks, and we won the Victory over the European Union of 41-45, and all this hissing about the "plywood" technique of the Russians is just a manifestation of undisguised impotent anger, Russia has always beat and will beat its enemies, even if it has to be beaten with "plywood".
  19. +3
    12 August 2016 16: 01
    I do not agree with the author that the percale sheathing of our biplanes of the I-15, I-15 bis and I-152-153 types was worse in terms of "resistance" to bullets and shells than the Henschel's all-metal casing. In fact, the German pilots themselves and our pilots noted that the Soviet percale biplanes were difficult to shoot down and they retained their combat effectiveness when hit in the plane and other places covered with percale. However, in the literature there are quite a few descriptions of the fact that percale in the places of holes tore and then tore off the frame with minor damage from bullet hits. So what's the deal? And the fact is that the percale was impregnated with a special varnish that gave it strength on the one hand, and on the other hand, the elasticity of such a percale was resistant to bullet hits - it did not break into long rags and did not allow the explosives to be cocked, they pierced it without exploding. Such a property as resistance to projectile hits, which did not explode piercing the canvas plane through and through, was noted in their memoirs by the so-called "hunters for" night witches "who hunted our night bombers such as Po-2, R-5, etc. However, our varnish , which covered the percale was of poor quality and was much inferior to its "imported" samples, over time it not only lost its properties, but also worsened the wear resistance of the material itself, to which it was applied. This was known in the Red Army Air Force and the linen covering was regularly changed before the war, realizing that most of the biplanes were outdated and would soon be replaced by new types of aircraft, they did not change the worn-out skin on many aircraft and some of the biplanes, generally decommissioned and placed them at storage points where they were under the open sky for quite a long time, which further worsened the condition of the casing. about the time of the Nazi attack on the USSR, it was the aircraft with the replaced skin (or with the ones that were not yet subject to replacement in terms of time) that took on the brunt of the first strike, were quickly knocked out, etc. And then those aircraft that were at storage points, alternate airfields, etc., that is, those whose skin had long had to be changed both in terms of time and condition. Finnish pilots, who had many captured Soviet percale aircraft, faced with the disgusting quality of Soviet percale, "dragged" all their aircraft to the new percale and successfully used these aircraft in battles. By the way, the "linen" biplanes I-153 were in service with the Finnish army until the 50s.
  20. 0
    12 August 2016 18: 17
    Quote: Monster_Fat
    the percale sheathing of our biplanes of the I-15, I-15 bis and I-152-153 types was worse in terms of "resistance" to bullets and shells than the all-metal plating of the Henschel. In fact, the German pilots themselves and our pilots noted that the Soviet percale biplanes were difficult to shoot down and they retained their combat effectiveness when hit in the plane and other places covered with percale. However, in the literature there are quite a few descriptions of the fact that percale in the places of holes tore and then tore off the frame.
    Here I was guided by such data, as the military practice showed, as they say.

    Quote: Monster_Fat
    "linen" biplanes I-153 were in service with the Finnish army until the 50s.
    The Finns were probably the most famous garbage collectors of the Second World War. laughing
  21. +1
    12 August 2016 21: 29
    Lord !!! Neighbor is Uncle Fedya Lutsenko, a stormtrooper, all breasts in orders, two sons of a pilot, and did not know that he died due to pests of aircraft designers and workmongers, and the Germans reached the Urals, and from that side were Japs.
  22. +1
    12 August 2016 21: 43
    Percale sheathing was insensitive to holes. Yes. But the wooden power set, all other things being equal, was much weaker to damage than the metal one. If in a duralumin spar a large-caliber bullet simply made a hole with a diameter of 12,7 mm, then the wooden spar this same bullet broke like a sledgehammer. Well, the restrictions on the dynamic characteristics of a wooden or mixed glider are much higher than that of an all-metal one. The same Yak at a dive risked remaining without planes at speeds close to 650-700 km / h, for the Germans and allied vehicles, exceeding 700 at a dive was quite normal.
    1. +1
      12 August 2016 21: 51
      Not only that, in wood, and especially in the Yak-3, due to its lightness, the wing was overloaded. Deformation of the wooden wing of a large scope also led to uneven flow around, tearing off plywood sheathing, and jamming of the control.
      In addition, the Dural design with the same strength is much lighter, more resistant to damage. The weight savings made it possible to better protect the most valuable in a pilot plane.
      1. +2
        13 August 2016 00: 50
        Hmmm. and as soon as the French on such nowhere worthless YAK-3 from the Normandy regiment had losses of 1: 7 in their favor? probably the Germans played giveaway with them.
        1. +1
          13 August 2016 09: 49
          No, the French were professional pilots with excellent training. There were no 1-7. Losses are the same as in the West, about 1-1. You just need to see what kind of shot down the French. What is more, fighters or attack.
          The Yak-3 is an aerial combat aircraft over a long-range drive. The range is small, the weapons are bad. It could not be relieved. The French were fitted with a special series.
          After the war, it was immediately banned from exploitation, several cases of collapsing of the wings, and they were afraid to get involved in it in a maneuvering battle. And the skin from the wings flew off and the wing twisted.
          In the 44th, the Germans from the Eastern Front transferred the main fighter stafs to the defense of the Reich. The air war went mainly there.
          For 60 sorties in the West, the Luftwaffe lost 000 fighters, and in the East for 5400 sorties, 80 losses That's the difference.
          The Red Army Air Force plywood was not very much afraid, and the training of the bulk of the pilots was weak, both tactical and flying.
          1. +1
            13 August 2016 14: 56
            And here is a lie, from the age of 44 they were already afraid, read the memoirs and memoirs of the participants, the situation was exactly the opposite with the one that was in 41-42, even the memoirs of one German pilot confirm, although he does not readily make confessions. And the fact that only 80000 lost for 700 means only that they learned to get away well, once they smelled of fried, more often they dodged the battle.
            1. +1
              13 August 2016 20: 09
              They weren’t afraid, but they fought well. If the Americans hadn’t gouged synthetic gas plants, they would have kicked the ass of the Red Army.
              In the 44th I had to collect the best pilots in the 19th IAP to counteract it. With one gruny pin, they covered the whole of Kurland so that the flappers howled, beat the shocked planes like flies, and turned to Headquarters. Novikov created a marshal regiment on La-7.
  23. 0
    12 August 2016 23: 22
    Quote: Alf
    Quote: kara61
    , another Anglo-Saxons were not allowed to take,

    There were no other battleships of the Axis countries alive then they took what was left.

    There were Italian and battleships and heavy cruisers, German pocket and cruisers. They only gave light Nuremberg, and that’s all, if I’m not mistaken.
  24. +2
    13 August 2016 08: 03
    It's even fun to read. The Germans had all the equipment better, and the commanders were smarter, and the soldiers were more experienced.
    Why then did these Nibelungs merge in Stalingrad? Also, the Allies saved the USSR by giving the Germans PQ-17?
    Possessing superferndinandy (of which almost half were lost on the move) and the little ubers did not cut off the Kursk ledge?
    Why did German generals beat their heads in 44?
    If we had such a wretched air defense, why, being 40km from Moscow, could not drop a single bomb on the center of the capital?
    1. +1
      13 August 2016 08: 36
      In the Battle of Kursk, tank losses and the total in the Red Army were terrible, Rybalko, crap for the second time in a year, the first time in the winter near Kharkov, when Manstein defeated the troops of Vatutin and Golikov again surrounded the Red Army near Kharkov, Zhukov saved him, Rybalko never forgot him .
      The generals banged on their heads so they would not hang them after a failed attempt to overthrow Hitler at the behest of the British. This Hitler did not forgive the surviving cowards and hung them on the piano wire.
      Under Stalingrad, Paulus signed CAPITULATION, and did not abandon his troops as Soviet stripes, did not escape to the rear like Oktyabrsky, Petrov and others, and having spoken out the conditions for surrender, he signed the ACT.
      The Germans bombed and successfully both Moscow and other cities.
      Air raids on Moscow ceased at the request of OKH-aircraft were needed at the front.
      Gouging Murmansk. Arkhangelsk to smithereens, therefore convoys didn’t go from June until the fall of 42, as Stalin did not beg to send them, there was nothing to unload, Gorky, Yaroslavl, Rybinsk. Astrakhan, Saratov, and more cities and enterprises in the rear, and without loss.
      Yes, and during the raids on Moscow, losses were isolated. The Soviet air defense of their aircraft shot down more. And the loss of fighters from a loss of orientation was off-scale. The air defense efficiency was low. It was just that the Luftwaffe received information from agents about the presence of balloons from 4000 meters. And in the center was also dropped by enterprises, stations, and elevators.
      The allies, having taken Tirpitz’s exit as real, rushed to intercept him, but his Germans were not going to take him out to the Ocean. They simply waited for the British boat and Lunin to give radiograms about finding the exit, and after receiving a report from the air reconnaissance on the withdrawal of the guard forces from the convoy they returned Tirpitz and tightly closed airspace. And when the return of cover forces became impossible and gave the Luftwaffe and the PL command to defeat the convoy, the Germans completely succeeded in Russian chess etude. They drowned weapons and supplies on a whole front.
      And the Germans had better technique, and they fought more literally. And if the Soviet soldier learned to fight by the 44th, then the commanders with four education classes never learned to command, so they always assigned a guide to them. Well, without a guide they always broke firewood , as in Hungary, and Zhukov when taking Berlin, he always differed with rare dullness.
      1. +3
        13 August 2016 13: 45
        And what did Zhukov do during the assault on Berlin? He had fewer losses than the defenders, even according to German data.

        I repeat my question, why did illiterate generals and drunken soldiers with sloppy equipment win the Stalingrad battle, then the Kursk battle? This is in particular.

        And in general, how did it happen that the Soviet troops ended up in Berlin?
        You do not live in Primorye by chance? And that is, I have one friend in another forum, who is also stubborn in German technical genius.
    2. +2
      13 August 2016 13: 25
      The victory was achieved "on the ground" by Russian infantrymen, tankmen and artillerymen at a very high price, without aviation and navy, which are needed to support the actions of the infantry.
  25. +3
    13 August 2016 09: 05
    Dear author! You wrote an interesting article, but its title does not reflect reality. XSh-123 - the aircraft is not primitive. It reflected the views of German aviation experts on the design of machines of this type and compliance with the requirements of the military regarding operational characteristics and combat use. These views, for that time, were undoubtedly advanced and were confirmed later on during the Second World War. Mighty was the plane, thoughtful and rational design. Everything in it was his own, in German worked and reliable. He is not at all
    “Indestructible”, and in general such a term is not applicable to military aviation. In any war there is always loss in any theater of operations - on land, at sea, in the air. During the war, the need for the Germans and their allies in such machines periodically arose and was met differently. It is impossible to say that the decision to refuse mass production was erroneous. The course of hostilities on the Western and Eastern Front and future prospects for Germany were such that preference was given to vehicles of another class.

    I want to dwell on the comments. Their authors are characterized by a discussion from the philistine positions of various war events, amateurish comparisons of foreign and Soviet weapons, the absence of not only special (aviation), but generally no technical and military education, understanding and comprehension of the material read. Quoting quotes from memoirs to each other, hasty conclusions that are not supported by analysis turn into an endless “chatter”, often not related to the topic of the article.
    1. 0
      13 August 2016 13: 22
      I agree with you. Nevertheless, the article raises the actual problem of combat effectiveness, showing that even a "primitive" aircraft is effective under certain conditions. In my opinion, our air operation in Syria shows that just a "primitive" aircraft with a satellite navigation and sighting system and a relatively small load could be more effective than the Su-24, -34 in terms of the "beneficial effect" - "cost" ratio. ...
      1. 0
        13 August 2016 15: 20
        No need to go into the jungle. You only know what is in the media about the operation in Syria. Russia is not using outdated weapons there, but modernized and quite modern combat vehicles. It is them, who are in service today, that need to be tested in local conflicts, accumulating and analyzing certain experience.
        1. 0
          13 August 2016 19: 23
          It is obvious. However, it seems that the operation in Syria will not end, but the equipment that was created for a completely different war is being "tested", and the military command and control bodies, crews and service personnel are gaining experience that is not very suitable for a war with such a strong adversary as NATO and the United States ... It is necessary to bear in mind the need to conduct similar operations in the future and prepare troops for the conduct of wars of two types, understanding that the technologies for waging such wars are different.
  26. +2
    13 August 2016 09: 20
    Quote: demiurg

    If we had such a wretched air defense, why, being 40km from Moscow, could not drop a single bomb on the center of the capital?

    Well, firstly it hit the center. Secondly, do not confuse Moscow’s air defense, but the Moscow air defense zone was one of the strongest among all the warring countries, and military air defense. In the component of military air defense, the Germans excelled us throughout the war, and allies.
    1. +2
      13 August 2016 15: 32
      When you are in the Kremlin, pay attention. One of the buildings has a memorial plaque with the names of those killed in the reflection of enemy raids. There were raids, there were hits .....
      The literature describes in detail how the air defense system of Moscow was organized. For the massive raids on the capital, the Germans did not have at that time a sufficient number of bombers and crews prepared for operations at night. Losses led to a gradual decrease in the intensity of raids and the number of vehicles involved.
  27. +1
    13 August 2016 17: 36
    The question always arises during such discussions: How did the war in Berlin end? Everything in the spacecraft was worse: pilots, planes, bombs, skills, not to mention "plywood" tanks and so on. As it does not add up, everything is worse and won the war.
    For example, the bombing of Berlin at the very beginning of the war was undoubtedly more an element of propaganda than an effective operation. But the effects of such actions are often very significant. Confidence in victory allows the military to act more effectively and efficiently.
    But the negative attitude towards this operation is surprising. Especially in comparison with the much less effective, but more publicized, like the Dullit raid. If the Union did something like this, the local "guardians" would interfere with this raid with shit "we have never spared people" and the like.
    If on the topic of the article, then let's still be more objective and honest. Often compared the technique of the Union and the United States. Damn, what could the Americans be able to produce in the conditions of the evacuation of half of the plants into the open field - this is another question. But the USSR was able, and even reached the level of much more developed powers of that time.
    There is an excellent clip on the game Thander War, where La-5 goes to the vertical from the messer and he "baked". This reflects the level that ours were able to reach - to make the aircraft better than the German ones.
    1. +1
      14 August 2016 18: 30
      The La-5 was damp against the Me-109, but the La-5FN with the same fuel equipment from Bosch as the Mass had an advantage in the so-called "combat speed", i.e. in a dog dump, he could catch up with a thin one on a hill and meteors were usually saved by diving, on which La-5FN had a limitation due to the weakness of the structure of a wooden plane ...
  28. 0
    14 August 2016 18: 17
    Perhaps the pilots liked this plane, but Speer certainly had to reject it, and Hitler would not even discuss the issue of resuming the production of an obsolete biplane ... You can only compare it with Po-2, and here our economy wins, and at night all the cats sulfur ... Workhorses of the battlefield Il-2 and Yu-87 barely reached the end of the war. The planes of the future (like the American phantom F4) were fighter-bombers, and here Hitler thought correctly, ahead of time theoretically, but the FV-190 was still a clean fighter, and with a jet fighter - a bomber, they fortunately did not succeed ...
  29. +1
    30 September 2016 07: 30
    kara61which did not bother Mr. Rudel. shout like Trotsky. I am only surprised at his modesty - I only wrote down a tank army for myself. and it could have been 10. Also, I remember, he flew "through the fragments of exploded tanks", which is generally a unique phenomenon in the history of world civilization, because tanks usually explode yielding only one shard - the turret. Interestingly, Rudel knew that the crews of Soviet tanks often threw smoke bombs on the engine compartment and pretended to be killed?