Military Review

Perspective machine for the army

107
For many years now, there have been discussions about what should be the promising machine gun of the Russian army. How many copies are already broken in battles on specialized sites and on television! Every year we are presented with a "newest model", which has no analogues in the world. And nothing has changed. The army is still armed with the old and reliable AK-74 of various modifications, which originates from the legendary AK arr. 47 g. Who now remembers the "unparalleled" AN-94, the "newest" AK-200 with a hinged lid of the receiver or a family weapons chambered for 6X49 mm. Now everyone knows only AK-12 and А-545, which are being tested for the right to become the main small arms for the next decades. So let's see which of the two applicants is better, and whether a new machine is needed at all.


Let's start with stories competition for a new machine. Back in the war years in Afghanistan, it became clear that the AK-74 based weapon family is the ultimate in the AK family. And no tricks of the design will radically improve the performance characteristics of the machine. It was decided to hold a competition under the code "Abakan". Leading designers presented their achievements. The main innovations were automatic machines with balanced automation and offset recoil. The automatic machine with balanced automatic AEK-971 did not reach the final due to problems with the balance mechanism resource. The final came out the development of Gennady Nikonov (ASN machine gun) and the development of Igor Stechkin (TKB-0146). Both machines had automatics with a displaced recoil impulse and had two rates of fire. According to the results of the competition, the sample won by Nikonov (ASN), which after modifications and was adopted by the army of the Russian Federation under the name AN-94. But in the difficult for the country 90-e army was not up to the new machine ...

Perspective machine for the army


The machine gun is remarkable in that it has two rates of fire - 1800 / 600 v. / Min. When shooting using regular cartridges 5,45x39 mm. The machine gun consists of two parts: a firing unit with a barrel and a bolt group, as well as an external "casing" with guides. When the first shot is fired, the firing unit starts to move back, the cartridge case is thrown out, the trigger is cocked, and a new cartridge is sent to the chamber. The secret of the rate of fire (1800 v. / Min) is that the second cartridge is sent much faster due to the smaller distance between the magazine and the firing backward unit. The second shot occurs while the shooting block is moving backwards, and the recoil momentum from two shots is summed at the end. So the first two shots occur when shooting in automatic mode, the subsequent shots are made with the tempo of 600 in. / Min. The first two bullets fly very closely and provide a high probability of hitting the target, dispersing the rest of the queue’s bullets slightly less than AK-74 due to a more efficient compensator and recoil buffers. I wouldn't call the automaton "unparalleled". During these years, a competition for a new assault rifle was held in Germany. It involved the HK G11 rifle with a similar principle of operation of the automatics, but firing the cartridgeless caliber 4,73 mm. The rifle had a rotating chamber and a plastic case, cocked by rotating the handle on the butt. From the perspective point of view, the German model was more interesting than the Soviet one, but problems with the resource of the barrel, the unique cartridge and the probability of self-ignition of the cartridge were not solved. Soon the project was closed due to the collapse of the ATS and the unification of Germany. The Russian machine gun was released in a very limited series and was never able to replace the AK-74 in the army. The automatic machine was distinguished by a rather high cost and design complexity, although it was fairly reliable.



The next model is the A-545 machine gun. Its direct ancestor is AEK-971. This is a machine with balanced automation. According to the design, it differs from the usual AK family by the presence of a moving anti-mass equal to the bolt group in mass. When fired, the counterweight and bolt group move in opposite directions and quench each other's impulse. Compared with the AK-74, the accuracy of automatic fire increased many times, but the accuracy of the first two bullets is inferior to the AN-94 machine gun. The machine turned out to be somewhat heavier than the AK-74, but is lighter than the AN-94, the rate of fire increased from 650 rpm to 900-1000 rpm, and has a cutoff mode for 3 shot. Judging by the nomination for the competition, the problem of the survivability of the gear that connects the bolt group and the anti-mass has been solved or removed to a significant extent. In my opinion, A-545 in the resolution of problems with survivability is the most progressive example.



The latest and least interesting example is the AK-12. It differs from the AK-74 in more comfortable ergonomics, the presence of a fire regime for the 3 shot, a rigid receiver cover and an increased accuracy of fire. A radical increase in the characteristics of the weapon did not happen. By the accuracy of the automatic fire, it is still inferior to A-545 and AH-94, the problem of ergonomics is partially solved by installing a good body kit; . Nothing fundamentally new (multi-caliber, modular design) has been demonstrated. In the case of mass production, the army will receive a weapon that is not much better than the AK-74, and this with proper quality control at work.

AH-94 and A-545 seem to me much more promising. They are not required to be stamped in tens of millions of pieces, and, in addition, they can begin to be exported. It is enough to equip them with a regular army and the National Guard. AK-74 should remain the main weapon of the Russian army in case of a big war. The idea of ​​upgrading millions of warehouse AK-74 / AK-74М seems to be more interesting to me by installing a high-quality body kit at the price of $ 300-400. At the same time, the automaton in its qualities will approach the AK-12 at a much lower cost.
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  1. PKK
    PKK 8 June 2016 05: 47
    +9
    If we discard the desire of some manufacturers to cash in on this topic, then a promising machine, it's still the same AK, only with a solid bar that would securely mount the sight and not knock down after a dozen shots. Bring the bar to mind. And that wouldn’t it was necessary to lean out to the waist to aim. And ideally, the optical fiber drive of the sight, for observation from behind the shelves. Plus quality sights. Day and night. A good arrester. Enough. Do at least that.
    1. bunta
      bunta 8 June 2016 05: 53
      +21
      What is the other bar? The side bracket will solve the problem of any mounted optics, which in 90% of cases is not needed at all on the AK.
      1. Owl
        Owl 8 June 2016 08: 42
        +13
        And you, in "conditions of limited visibility" (at night or at dusk) from AK, without optics or a collimator sight, quickly and accurately hit targets (real targets)?
        1. bunta
          bunta 8 June 2016 09: 29
          +2
          I think I left 10% for all sorts of "twilight" and other "if". But it seems he gave too much.
        2. Zubr
          Zubr 8 June 2016 13: 27
          +7
          Quote: Eagle Owl
          And you, in "conditions of limited visibility" (at night or at dusk) from AK, without optics or a collimator sight, quickly and accurately hit targets (real targets)?


          This is YES. This is not a night firing range.
        3. gladcu2
          gladcu2 8 June 2016 20: 45
          +3
          Owl

          Bunta is very right.

          All these canopies should be worn in a pouch, for greater safety. And on the machine should be only the necessary minimum. It’s dangerous to leave even the kalimatorny, and put it directly when shooting.

          In my opinion, the AK side bracket is more convenient when replacing the canopy than the fixed picotini rail. Although the machine is a little heavier with her.
      2. Hon
        Hon 8 June 2016 12: 01
        +12
        Quote: bunta
        which in 90% of cases is not needed at all on AK.

        it’s strange, why do special forces soldiers so actively mount this very optics? maybe it is needed more than in 10% of cases?
        1. Zubr
          Zubr 8 June 2016 13: 24
          +1
          Quote: Hon
          Quote: bunta
          which in 90% of cases is not needed at all on AK.

          it’s strange, why do special forces soldiers so actively mount this very optics? maybe it is needed more than in 10% of cases?


          Because the soldiers of the joint venture, prefer to conduct a single aimed fire. And more accurately shooting and ammunition save.
          1. Hon
            Hon 8 June 2016 16: 18
            +1
            Quote: Zubr
            Because the soldiers of the joint venture, prefer to conduct a single aimed fire. And more accurately shooting and ammunition save.

            if there’s time to take a good aim, which, by the way, the collimator also helps, and when shooting off guard, then in short bursts
        2. bunta
          bunta 8 June 2016 14: 27
          +2
          Quote: Hon
          strange

          Or you inattentively read my post or trying to drag in a demagoguery.

          I told:
          Quote: bunta
          The side bracket will solve the problem of any mounted optics,
          as opposed to the "solid bar". I have big complaints about picatinny. Do you understand? First of all, because it does not allow, in the event of a failure of the mounted optics, to instantly use the open sight, as it was from time immemorial was carried out on rifles Mauser, Mosin, Dragunov.
          Why do fighters hang optics? This is not a question at all. I did not give any reasons for such a question. I said that in 90% of cases this canopy is not needed at all, and not about whether to prohibit or allow the use of this optics for "special forces soldiers".
          Once they put it, it means it is necessary, it means they believe that in at least one out of ten cases this will be necessary. Regardless, there is a collimator on the side bracket or on the picatini.
          1. Hon
            Hon 8 June 2016 16: 25
            0
            the optics on the bar cover the open sight in the same way as the optics mounted on the picatini. just picatini thing common as usb charging on smartphones
          2. gladcu2
            gladcu2 8 June 2016 20: 48
            +1
            bunita

            You're right. Do not get excited.

            Picotini, this is not very. Problems and benefits 50/50.
    2. Romanenko
      Romanenko 8 June 2016 11: 41
      +2
      I fully agree, you can crush in a mortar for a long time what is better and what is worse. In my opinion, the best thing is that it has been mastered in production, has the characteristics required by the customer and confirmed by operating experience, that it has been tested for a long time in the army and is not afraid of dirt, water, crooked Papuans and bestial treatment, but the most The main thing is tuned beyond recognition.
      What is the answer begs for itself, it is AK and nothing more! Look how American AK lovers tune it - you don’t know, and this suggests that we also have nothing to lag behind, we must set the tone in this matter ourselves, just do not sculpt anything, but we dare to move the topic of weapons development.
      Over the past 25 years, AK has become multi-caliber and this is also correct, now it is time for him to acquire new high-quality body kits and most likely it is time to invent them yourself, and not to copy from partners - all that they could have already copied, let them now peep.
      1. Hon
        Hon 8 June 2016 12: 06
        -4
        Quote: Romanenko
        not crooked hands of the Papuans and bestial treatment

        and if there are no Papuans in the army, and the soldiers handle weapons properly. but not bestial?
        Quote: Romanenko
        What is the answer begs for itself, it is AK and nothing more!

        But is there any experience with anything besides AK? here the Israelis switched from galil to M4, it’s difficult to blame for the lack of experience.
      2. gladcu2
        gladcu2 8 June 2016 20: 52
        +3
        Romanenko

        Do not pay attention to the USA. There is another battle tactic.

        It makes sense on the machine to keep only what you are preparing for. He took off and removed the excess in the pouch, otherwise you’ll bring down the sight.
        1. Bad_gr
          Bad_gr 9 June 2016 13: 51
          +3
          Remembering the "Abokan" competition, for some reason they forget to remember the machine, which was already in the hardware, and from which the performance characteristics were written for this competition. By the way, this machine did not participate in the competition. This is the TKB-0111 assault rifle (TsKIB SOO, designer Korobova G.A. Probably the only designer who developed the assault rifle first by studying the tactics of using automatic weapons.

          Rate of fire (low), rds / min up to 500
          Rate of fire (high), rds / min up to 2200
  2. Igor39
    Igor39 8 June 2016 05: 51
    +9
    And 545 for any special units needed, I somehow watched the transfer for AN and A 545, so the special said that the AN is too complicated and capricious, and with A 545 he would go into reconnaissance. So A 545 is special, and AK 74m is for modernization , will go to the guard.
  3. hammer stalker
    hammer stalker 8 June 2016 07: 07
    -13%
    We live in the 21st century!! It’s time to switch to lasers, and hand-held neutron weapons.
    1. Dam
      Dam 8 June 2016 09: 46
      +15
      It's time to drink chlorpromazine!
      1. raf
        raf 8 June 2016 23: 32
        +2
        Quote: Damm
        It's time to drink chlorpromazine!

        Yeah, grabbed a dose and let the enemies from the "animator" laughing to wet!
  4. Aleksandr72
    Aleksandr72 8 June 2016 07: 13
    +11
    To the author: controversial articles about whether the Russian army needs a new machine, and if so, which one is not uncommon in the Internet.
    The AN-94 and the West German Heckler & Koch HK G11 rifle have only one thing in common - that the recoil force when firing in bursts of a fixed length (2 and 3 rounds respectively) acts after the end of the firing, thereby achieving greater accuracy of firing. For this, the Germans used the following constructive solution:
    The barrel part, the trigger (except for the safety flag and the descent), the rotating breech block with mechanisms and a clip are assembled on one base, which moves translationally inside the hull of the weapon. When firing with single shots or with automatic non-fixed shooting, the mechanism completes the entire cycle of the shot, while the recoil becomes less. When firing in fixed bursts after every third shot, the mobile system comes to its extreme rear position.

    The operating principle of the AN-94 automation is described in the article. Heckler & Koch HK G11 used a much more complex design, and I would not argue that it is more promising than the AN-94:
    The automatic circuit of the Heckler & Koch HK G11 rifle operates due to the kinetic energy of the powder gases discharged after the shot and the short course of the barrel. The initial placement of cartridges in the holder above the barrel with bullets down. The G11 rifle is equipped with a special rotating breech chamber, where, before the start of fire, the cartridge is fed vertically downwards. After that, the breech turns at a right angle, and when the cartridge is combined with the barrel line, a shot is fired, while the cartridge is not directly fed into the barrel. Because cartridge without a shell (the capsule burns out when fired), the operation of the automation is simple: the shot sleeve does not need to be thrown out by the mechanism. After the fired shot, the breech chamber turns back to receive the next ammunition. When misfiring, the defective cartridge is thrown down under the influence of the feed force of the next ammunition. The mechanism is cocked using the rotary knob located on the left. When shooting, the handle does not move.

    Regarding the AK-12:
    According to the accuracy of automatic fire, it is still inferior to the A-545 and AN-94

    You can see the link characteristics and test results that unequivocally confirm this circumstance and are much inferior - this is how much - an order of magnitude, two?
    Thanks for the article. But the assault rifle that the army will "vote for" based on the results of all types of tests will still be adopted. At least I hope it will. That not everything in Russia is decided by corruption and lobbying for the interests of the manufacturer.
    1. yehat
      yehat 8 June 2016 10: 34
      +1
      in my opinion, for the units of the highest combat readiness it is necessary to change the machine for a long time (border guards, landing troops, marines, reconnaissance, etc.). AK-74 is too wrong. I personally like AEK the most. And for parts 2 of the line, you can leave the Ak-74, however, as correctly noted, to work with equipping body kits, sights and so on.
      And to choose again a single dull solution "cheaper" is nonsense.
      Our state is not so weak that all soldiers are equipped with the principles of economy.
      And, finally, it is worth linking the machine with the use of the "warrior". Especially in terms of weight.
      A little more weight AEK, in my opinion, is fully offset by higher accuracy. You can take less cartridges on the horn.
      1. yehat
        yehat 9 June 2016 13: 35
        +2
        Separately, I want to note that we need a machine for medium / close combat, a battle in the city similar to Tavor-u. For all garrison and security units, tankmen, signalmen and others who do not plan to conduct small arms battles in the field. First of all, not long in size, maybe with a different cartridge.
        The Israelis released a very competent machine with a number of simple and effective solutions, it would be foolish to ignore their experience.
        Special forces with Kalash in the city - well, it's not even funny already.
  5. inkass_98
    inkass_98 8 June 2016 07: 19
    +8
    If everything was smooth and smooth with the AN-94, then in 20 years it would definitely be allowed into the series, especially in the current conditions of rearmament. And then a new competition was announced, so everything is not very rosy, there are problems with Abakan.
    And yes, enough for the Kalashnikov Concern to use old ideas, it's time to offer something new. It is impossible to exploit the invention of Mikhail Timofeevich for so many years, we must also look into the future. For the wartime army, we have accumulated enough stocks of AKs of various series, but for professionals we need something more modern.
  6. Igor39
    Igor39 8 June 2016 08: 01
    0
    I can’t see the comments for some reason.
    1. bunta
      bunta 8 June 2016 08: 24
      +2
      You need to clean the history and cache. I had the same tramp.
      1. Igor39
        Igor39 8 June 2016 13: 47
        0
        Solved a problem smile
      2. Igor39
        Igor39 8 June 2016 13: 48
        0
        Solved a problem smile everything seems ok
  7. Squirrel has come
    Squirrel has come 8 June 2016 08: 43
    +3
    I agree with the author on the modernization of millions of warehouse AK-74 / AK-74M by installing a high-quality body kit at a price of 300-400 cu will be more economical. Degtyarev needs to be promoted strenuously ....>: - L
    1. Mordvin 3
      Mordvin 3 8 June 2016 08: 58
      +5
      Quote: Squirrel came
      I agree with the author on the modernization of millions of warehouse AK-74 / AK-74M by installing a high-quality body kit at a price of 300-400 cu will be more economical. Degtyarev needs to be promoted strenuously ....>: - L

      According to Rogozin, we, for the war, enough 3mln. AK This is already a billion cu. In warehouses, by the way, 16 million. Kalash, and even more. So consider the issue price.
      1. TiRex
        TiRex 16 June 2016 01: 07
        0
        In this case, Rogozin balabol, 3 AK for war is nothing.
    2. Dam
      Dam 8 June 2016 10: 02
      +5
      Absolutely. On the accuracy of machine guns, most often discuss sofa arrows. In war there is no rifle table, bipod and stable positions, no time to even out breathing. Under these conditions, a weapon will definitely shoot better than a shooter, especially one with 30-40 shots. But the possibility of using daytime, nighttime, and thermal imaging optics is long overdue, and it does not completely solve the side crown. Therefore, you need to divide the machine into a massive AK, reliable and indestructible, and a weapon for specialists, here you already need accuracy and balanced automation.
  8. Old26
    Old26 8 June 2016 08: 59
    +2
    Quote: stalker hammers
    We live in the 21st century!! It’s time to switch to lasers, and hand-held neutron weapons.

    Yeah. And pocket atomic bombs. What are you not comfortable with in the 21st century?
    Thank you for the article. I always read with interest such polemical articles. A PLUS
  9. erased
    erased 8 June 2016 09: 07
    +16
    Boring. Reading the same resources on different resources is boring. No specifics, no information, just a retelling of old information and personal wishes.
    In my opinion, it seems to me my personal opinion ...
    A personal opinion is good when you choose a coat or watch, or even a car. To yourself!
    And here we are talking about state organizations! And the question of the country's security. In any case, it is necessary to argue and convincingly! Is there TTZ data for the new program? Any shooting results? Have comparative data on the operation? If not, then why the hell to say something?
    Better AH, better AEK. Or maybe the food of the 15th century is better? Or a sling? So the savings are obvious and the simplicity of the design! It is possible with a laser sight and a homing stone!
    I'm slightly at a loss, why do the site owners allow me to post materials about anything? Need to score a pad? Well, post jokes. Fresh, new. If there is not enough material that is really informative and of high quality.
    By the way, I personally, in my opinion, prefer a tank with a single caterpillar. Colonel Vasin recommended. Well, to hell with this Armata! Not for Feng Shui! The old design does not roll. I can justify it. But only after a glass. Soda.
  10. fa2998
    fa2998 8 June 2016 09: 17
    +9
    Quote: inkass_98
    If everything was smooth and smooth with the AN-94, then in 20 years it would have definitely been put into production, especially in the current conditions of rearmament.

    There is an example from history. During the operation of SVT, there were different opinions, something "capricious and unreliable" are those who came to the army from the "plow" and "magnificent and reliable" - mainly those who served in the marines - there are people from the navy, having some kind of education and familiar with the technique.
    In case of war, our military leadership will again call on millions of conscripts and hand them weapons that come from AK-47 - almost all men, this country was fired from AK, AKM, AKS, AKSU, RPK, RPKS, AK-74, RPK-74M and so on. new "hundredth series" and AK-12. There is a stake on a massive army and not on professionals. I think any professional will eventually master any complex (but OWN) small arms. To take something new, you need to create a mobilization reserve again, and to retrain who is in the "reserve" at training camps. And this is a headache, let them, in their opinion, remain as before. They will again accept another modification of the Kalashnikov assault rifle.
    In principle, I was pleased with my weapons (I served with the AK-74 with a wooden forearm and butt), and after the first short target lay down, and again surrendered the ammunition to the foreman. After this 25 years have passed, but I think I’ll master a couple of firing again. soldier hi
    1. verboo
      verboo 8 June 2016 11: 49
      -1
      Quote: fa2998
      and "gorgeous and reliable" - mostly those who served in the marines - there are people from the navy with some kind of education and familiar with the technique.

      Specialists were not sent to the marines. Sent those who are simpler. Therefore, about good reviews and marines, these are fables, mainly.
      Read the reports of the Office on the Use of War Experience (deployed back in 1944 from the same department of the General Staff of the Spacecraft), they are on the internet. Although the rifle was mentioned in many reports, almost all the reviews about it were negative. And no "Marines" appear there.
    2. skeptic
      skeptic 8 June 2016 12: 37
      +4
      Quote: fa2998
      In principle, I was pleased with my weapons (I served with the AK-74 with a wooden forearm and butt), and after the first short target lay down, and again surrendered the ammunition to the foreman. After this 25 years have passed, but I think I’ll master a couple of firing again.


      He served an urgent service from the 47th, he also put 2 bullets in line, only he didn’t surrender extra ammunition, but felled neighboring targets (into the general result). There have never been complaints or complaints about weapons, nor about SCS.
    3. sibiryouk
      sibiryouk 8 June 2016 17: 35
      +2
      I think that now the people will go all the same technically more advanced than in the early 50s. After all, the XNUMXst century is in full swing, a lot of all kinds of equipment in the hands of the people — an automatic machine and a more complicated AK will do.
    4. The comment was deleted.
    5. PKK
      PKK 8 June 2016 18: 02
      0
      Can you see how they are shooting https://www.youtube.com/watch? V = RhjWQ0TnLOw
  11. castle
    castle 8 June 2016 09: 42
    -1
    Currently, TrackingPoint offers an interesting product for the infantry - M600 rifles of 5,56 × 45mm caliber, DMR M800 of 7,62 × 51mm caliber and M1400 bolt of 8,6 × 70mm caliber.
    All this with different computers and other gadgets. The price, of course, is embarrassing, the price is higher than that of AK, but there is a big saving on cartridges, and this is also money. They were tested both in water and in sand and mud and in frost. It seems to work.
    I did not hold it in my hands, but there is reason to believe the guys who have experienced.
    1. yehat
      yehat 8 June 2016 10: 48
      +7
      many boobies do not understand what our infantry will have to face. In the west, machines that can conduct high-precision dense fire at distances up to 400m are already being actively introduced
      we still think that the battle will be up to 200m and the AK-74 will be enough. NO, not enough. Not enough for a long time !. The distance of fire contact has increased! Now the infantry squad should be able to detect a target at a distance of up to 500m and should be able to shoot in a short burst of non-growth targets at distances of up to 400m. AK-74 is not enough for this! And it's not even a fact that AEK will be enough. Well, let the stubborn "experts" continue to argue about how well the AK-74 hits the target from 50-100 meters.
      the instructions to the SVD indicate that it is desirable to fire up to 300m in order to reliably hit the target. You think about it! even for a sniper rifle, a simple but still sniper rifle, recommend a distance of 300m. It is clear that you can shoot further, but there is a fact - at a distance of 200-400m our infantry has very unpleasant conditions during fire contact. This issue needs to be addressed now, not in 30 years, but now. And adoption of the AK-12 will simply bury quite a few of our soldiers or allies in vain.
      And we need not only an automatic machine anymore, we need to actively equip it with surveillance tools, camouflage tools, and effective communication tools.
      It is necessary to give up the practice of making "second grade" trunks
      1. verboo
        verboo 8 June 2016 11: 31
        +3
        Quote: yehat
        we still think that the battle will be up to 200m and the AK-74 is enough.

        300 m. It is this distance that strikes as the main one. And this is done for a reason, it is on 300 m that Kalash is more or less acceptable. An assault rifle, not an army.
        In fact, this is not so, the normal individual small arms (army rifle) are fighting at 400 m, and automatic, about 450 m.
        1. Chtononibrator
          Chtononibrator 8 June 2016 12: 07
          +2
          Range of direct shot AK-74 440 meters. The rest depends on the skill of the shooter.
          1. overb
            overb 8 June 2016 12: 34
            0
            Quote: Chtononibrator
            Range of direct shot AK-74 440 meters.

            430 m in height.
            And on the chest is already 260 m.
            And on the head 205 m.
            So what? DPV, this is nothing. In itself, it has no value.
            1. Svateev
              Svateev 8 June 2016 12: 57
              +4
              Quote: overb
              430 m in height; A in the chest is 260 m. A in the head 205 m.

              Absolutely incorrect numbers.
              From the manual for AK74: DPV for the chest - 440m, for growth - 625m. According to my calculations, the DPA for the main one is 357m.
              Quote: overb
              DPV, this is nothing. In itself, it has no value.

              If you don’t know how to shoot, then for you no information is valuable. A direct shot is the most effective fire in battle, where there is no time to measure the distance to the target and set the appropriate sight. And to shoot a direct shot you need to know the range of such a shot.
              1. overb
                overb 8 June 2016 13: 37
                +1
                Quote: Svateev
                From the manual for AK74: DPV for the chest - 440m, for growth - 625m.

                This is taking into account the height of the trajectory. Not absolute numbers. I brought you the absolute.
                Quote: Svateev
                A direct shot is the most effective fire in battle

                The most effective fire in battle is the one that does the most damage to the enemy.
                And if you are a pan-athlete, then this is already a conversation from another opera.
                Quote: Svateev
                where there is no time to measure the distance to the target and set the appropriate sight.

                That is, at a range of 625 m (this is the relative RPA for the running target that you specified), are you going to shoot at a constant sight? Why then do you need a pillar?
              2. yehat
                yehat 9 June 2016 13: 28
                +3
                excuse me, but
                Quote: Svateev
                on growth - 625m.

                it looks like a fantasy. Suppose you can aim at such a distance, and pretend that enemies do not hide and growth targets exist, but ... what percentage of soldiers will generally see a target at such a distance without optics ??? I think no more than 5%. And they will be able to aim and shoot single even less. And if the AK-74 / AK-12 is not from the high-quality barrel manufacturing series that soldiers usually give, the density of fire, given the dispersion and the fact that single shooting will be such that you will fall into a stationary target, probably after an hour of continuous shooting. Which ultimately makes shooting completely useless.
                I recently participated in shooting biathlon simulators. Many from 5 meters into the target, the size of a saucer can not get a laser that does not deviate, not once from 5 shots !!! Such will shoot in reality. And you need them to fall!
                in general, do not engage in demagogy and discuss more realistic options.
            2. The comment was deleted.
            3. PKK
              PKK 8 June 2016 18: 10
              0
              They put their sights on the C grade, or the foursome, as they like, and so they walk. They shoot either at the feet or at the crown of the head. But bam and ...
              1. marshes
                marshes 8 June 2016 18: 31
                0
                Quote: PKK
                They put their sights on the C grade, or the foursome, as they like, and so they walk. They shoot either at the feet or at the crown of the head. But bam and ...

                By the way, they set their sights on 4, while teaching youth. A dozen. On target number 4. Distance 100 m.
                In practice, a chest of drawers and then a platoon.
                Then they taught me how to shoot. smile
                1. sharp-lad
                  sharp-lad 9 June 2016 00: 40
                  0
                  As part of the NVP with AK 47 from a hundred meters on a thoracic target on a C grade.
          2. yehat
            yehat 9 June 2016 13: 03
            0
            maybe you tell us what density of fire with single shots you will create your super shootings?
      2. Chtononibrator
        Chtononibrator 8 June 2016 12: 41
        +3
        Quote: yehat
        In the west, machines that can conduct high-precision dense fire at distances up to 400m are already being actively introduced

        This is unlikely, judging by the fact that in favor of carbines ala M4.
        1. Igor39
          Igor39 8 June 2016 14: 01
          +2
          Yeah, and what is the effectiveness of NATO 5,56 at such a distance? I read that the Yankees’s squad fell under the fire of the Afghans from a distance of 600-700 meters, they fired at them from two PCs and AKMs, having M4 and MINIMI with them, they could not oppose them, having received several wounds, they successfully retreated, like that. Maybe nothing is needed change?
          1. overb
            overb 8 June 2016 14: 44
            +2
            Quote: Igor39
            Yeah, and what is the effectiveness of NATO 5,56 at such a distance?

            M16A2-x is effective at about 450 m. from point of view tabular indicators this is an ideal weapon of this class (in translation it sounds like a fully automatic rifle, if not specified, which means army, i.e. with full performance characteristics).
            M4A1 and M16A1 are effective a little more than 400 m. Therefore, M15A1 was replaced by M16A2.
            M4A1 will now also apparently be replaced by a military version of the Colt Expanse M4. I think that an efficiency of about 420-430 m will be received.
            Quote: Igor39
            came under the fire of the Afghans from a distance of 600-700 meters, fired at them from two PCs and AKMs, carrying M4 and MINIMI

            AKMs could not be mentioned, and PCs are very powerful weapons of a completely different class. Of course, with M4 and MINIM you won’t especially fight with them. Even if you replace M4 with M16.
            By the way, it was a very informative battle. Of course, the difference between the M16A4 and the AK-74M is not as big as that of the PC and Minimi, much less. But something similar in reality is quite possible to get. That’s the answer why they’re trying to make a new machine now. It needs to be done necessarily... And necessarily with a barrel of the order of 500-520 mm. The "legendary mechanism" in this case is definitely not suitable. And which one is suitable is not for me to decide.
        2. yehat
          yehat 9 June 2016 13: 05
          0
          there is a difference between implementation attempts and exploitation everywhere.
          By the way, M4 Americans are no longer satisfied with it for a long time.
          1. overb
            overb 9 June 2016 13: 34
            +1
            Quote: yehat
            By the way, M4 Americans are no longer satisfied with it for a long time.

            Ready for a replacement. In the civilian version, it is called the Colt Expanse M4 (409 mm barrel). In the military, I don’t know, maybe M4A2.
            1. yehat
              yehat 10 June 2016 13: 18
              0
              but this is the same rifle! slightly changed the layout and the trunk is longer
              nothing else
              1. overb
                overb 10 June 2016 14: 28
                +1
                Quote: yehat
                but this is the same rifle! slightly changed the layout and the trunk is longer nothing more

                The devil, as always, is shy in the little things. M4A1 shortened beyond measure. As a result, due to the short barrel rubbing of a part of the heat sink, this weapon, by rate of fire, has rolled out from the fully automatic weapon category (the term SMG is sometimes used) to the automatic weapon category. This affected the density of fire, although formally, due to the powerful cartridge, it is the same automatic army rifle, only shortened in comparison with the full-size M16A4.
                Now the barrel will slightly increase, part of the heat sink will be returned and the rate of fire will be restored to the level of fully automatic weapon (SMG). And there will be bingo, easier, cheaper, more comfortable, but without a noticeable deterioration in performance characteristics. Compared to M16A4.
  12. verboo
    verboo 8 June 2016 10: 26
    0
    Quote: Berezin Alexander
    or a family of weapons chambered for 6x49 mm

    This cartridge is not suitable for individual automatic weapons. It is unrealistic to balance his impulse of return.
    Quote: Berezin Alexander
    So let's figure out which of the two applicants is better, and whether a new machine is needed at all.

    Actually, as it were. But first of all, you need a new cartridge. Not 6x49 mm, of course.
    But looking at the price of this event, you begin to think that the new cartridge is not so needed. But the new weapon, on the old cartridge, is definitely needed. AK-74 is not very successful, to say the least. Although this is the best that has been done serial in the USSR rifleman.
    Quote: Berezin Alexander
    Even during the war in Afghanistan, it became clear

    Even at the time of adoption, everything was clear. With him and with a cartridge for him. Especially in comparison with the captured M16A1. But they chose "a tit in the sky." AK-74, God bless him, can be replaced. But what about the additional patron for him? It cannot be replaced so easily and cheaply.
    Quote: Berezin Alexander
    but you can also start exporting them.

    If, as before, for kisses on the gums of "dear Leonid Ilyich", then you can. You can still get it cheap, but what about the cost? And for good money, most likely they will not take it. The patron is still old and weak.
    Quote: Berezin Alexander
    At the same time, the machine in its qualities will approach AK-12 at a much lower cost.

    The main difference between the AK-12 and the AK-74 is not at all in the body kit. Therefore, AK-74 hung from head to toe will not come anywhere
  13. Vovanya
    Vovanya 8 June 2016 10: 28
    +1
    How long will we get this weapon trash? I’m already tired of reading the same thing, designers don’t have any ideas - they are poured from empty to empty, although there are promising ideas in the patent database, but to use them you need to share with the authors, and who will voluntarily give up their budget cake?
    1. yehat
      yehat 9 June 2016 13: 46
      +1
      there are ideas. the main obstacle is that we are used to saving on the equipment of a soldier, because of which we are putting our soldiers at a disadvantage in the quality of equipment manufacturing.
      I'm not even talking about bells and whistles.
      Significant and modern improvement of shooting equipment is associated with a rise in the cost of equipment, according to my estimates, about 3-4 times of the usual costs.
      On this leadership does not want to go. They do not need a strong soldier, they need a strong soldier for their cheapness. And this ultimately leads to an increase in unjustified losses, demoralization, loss of prestige.
  14. AleBors
    AleBors 8 June 2016 10: 29
    -1
    Of course, something new is needed. Start rearming with professionals and specialties. The guard just fits these parameters. And for everyone else to establish the production of high-quality body kit for the good old AK-47 (74). IMHO, of course, but with the anatomical handle and Picatinny rail, in addition to the belt and butt from FAB Difence, from the old AK-47 (7,62, 1961 onwards), it turned out to be an entirely acceptable weapon. The price of modernization was for 2014 - 250 cu
  15. D. Dan
    D. Dan 8 June 2016 11: 45
    +5
    Shtobe to make norms weapons in Russia mother, we must begin to develop their cartridge. You have to start with CARTRIDGES.
    First remove 9x18. Then 5.45. Caliber, brothers. Let’s leave, but the muzzle energy must be brought under new requirements. A shaman under the old cartridge is not reasonable.
    1. Forest
      Forest 8 June 2016 12: 01
      +2
      9x18 in the new pistols has already been replaced with 9x19 Parabellum. 5,45x39 in armor penetration exceeds 5,56x45, and the muzzle energy is sufficient - do not bring down elephants. Tales of survivors with dozens of small-caliber bullet hits cease to spread.
      1. overb
        overb 8 June 2016 12: 41
        +1
        Quote: Forest
        5,45x39 in armor penetration exceeds 5,56x45

        Of course. A cartridge of about the same caliber with a DE 1377 J will always break through more than a cartridge with a DE 1738 J.
        Lord, and with what kind of statements you will not come across on the Internet.
        Quote: Forest
        and the muzzle energy is sufficient - do not bring down elephants

        Not elephants. But at 400-450 m. And only enough for a maximum of 350 m. And this is still a problem.
    2. overb
      overb 8 June 2016 12: 37
      +1
      Quote: D. Dan
      First remove 9x18. Then 5.45. Caliber, brothers. Let’s leave, but the muzzle energy must be brought under new requirements.

      So + you are my low-power.
    3. The comment was deleted.
  16. marshes
    marshes 8 June 2016 12: 03
    +1
    74 good, easy to handle, For the army, that’s it.
    And for specials, they themselves must choose what suits them.
  17. Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 8 June 2016 12: 09
    +2
    First, run a machine for specialists, and transfer the AK-74 to the reserve, and put a new machine on the conveyor. The cartridge is unlikely to be changed in the near future. No new breakthroughs in materials for body armor are expected, and current problems are being solved by the production of new bullets and gunpowders.
  18. Chtononibrator
    Chtononibrator 8 June 2016 12: 35
    +3
    First, the military must say what they need. Increased accuracy or modularity. For specific requirements, the best machine from the ones offered is selected. In the meantime, the warriors themselves do not know what they want.
    1. Samuel Marshak
      Samuel Marshak 16 June 2016 06: 52
      0
      Absolutely agree! Ask the displaced people what they expect from the new weapon. What tasks are hard to do with an existing one. People with engineering education will clothe these "Wishlist" in TTZ, and smart designers will make it in metal. But first, decide the question "WHAT DO YOU NEED?"
  19. Wolka
    Wolka 8 June 2016 12: 44
    +3
    in my opinion, the A545 and AN94 weapon systems, like the AK74, have structurally exhausted themselves due to the used ammunition (cartridge), because the cartridge must be fundamentally new, say, it is desirable to design something on a sleeveless and capsule-free basis, there will be a new cartridge, there will be new weapons, more precisely small arms complex ...
  20. Skubudu
    Skubudu 8 June 2016 13: 08
    +3
    What is currently offered by Izhevtsy and Kovrovtsy is all half measures.
    A tough strong-willed decision is needed Above: all that gentlemen gunsmiths are proposing now - in "The project is closed".
    Here you have 2-3 years to create a new machine.

    Just as it was with PAK-FA and T-14
    1. yehat
      yehat 10 June 2016 13: 27
      +2
      rave. small arms, unlike airplanes, are not fundamentally changing. Only engineering solutions are changing. You will not make a gun with duplicating the trigger or phased array radar.
      Small arms change if proven solutions are not sufficient. AK-47, 74, 12 solutions
      have exhausted themselves. The decisions of AEK 545 are not exhausted and there is growth potential. So we have to move.
      There is a specific and clear goal. There are means to achieve it.
      And to come up with some kind of manual railgun is not worth it.
      A new cartridge for the machine, probably already needed. But any cartridge is not universal. But the problem is already being solved: now we are creating multi-caliber systems. And AEK 545 allows you to make such a move. In general, you just need to move, and not argue that AK is 200g easier and 10p cheaper.
  21. Comrade Artem
    Comrade Artem 8 June 2016 13: 15
    +3
    Damn, that's what you started a new machine yes a new machine ????????? Equipping the army in maintaining a database to achieve victory plays a very small role! The main thing in all armies is the logistics and training of l / s! Now imagine - you have 1- several calibres of cartridges only 2- in service with several fundamentally different machine guns. Any supplier with your bare hands will go to kill! Different and good machines are needed BUT only specialists and a limited series! In the main mass only AK (as it were not called)
    1. yehat
      yehat 10 June 2016 13: 40
      +1
      and here it is not necessary to reason from the point of view of logistics and the army. So you can reach the point that machine guns are not needed at all, but it’s better to buy a couple of MLRS! The machine must be evaluated in terms of the capabilities of the minimally equipped infantry to control the terrain. This is the strength of the infantry, and not how many rounds of cartridges you managed to give a ride. And in this light, the AK-12 looks frankly bad.
      let's compare. The Americans. their colt allows, especially on open surfaces, to shoot quite far and accurately. The Israelis. Their Tabor has several advantages for beginners and in the city. The British have generally light machine guns with the ensuing. The French - FAMAS, which also gives tactical advantages. And what gives Kalash, except for the price tag on the horn? Where is our infantry with him stronger than the other? In the town? the cartridge is not the same, the length and layout are inconvenient. In the mountains? also not that. In the woods? Actual AK-47, and we have Ak-74. Field? the silhouette of the shooter is high, accuracy is insufficient, the additional aiming equipment for the soldiers only dreams. Where will our Kalash give fighters an advantage ????
      Oh yes, reliability ... And if suddenly the enemy did not break anything - then what should I do?
      Our infantry needs a machine that at least somewhere will be a good argument that can turn the tide of events. AEK 545 gives such an additional argument. And it can still give, if you work on it.
  22. RussKamikadZE
    RussKamikadZE 8 June 2016 13: 30
    0
    Why spend money on ak-12? For conscripts - even ak74m is too good. For half of the contract soldiers too (half of them shoot no better than conscripts), the special forces already have their own tuned ak74 / 105. Why is this ak-12? Why should the government spend money on picatinny rails that are useless for most users? Anyway, what should you put on these levels? We do not have normal scopes that can compare with Acog, EoTech, Aimpoint. It is better to spend the money allocated for the "development" of the AK-12 for the purchase of tuning for parts of the SPN.
    1. overb
      overb 8 June 2016 13: 42
      +5
      Quote: RussKamikadZE
      Why spend money on AK-12? For conscripts - even ak74m is too good.

      If you treat the soldiers as cannon fodder, then yes, a sapper blade will be enough. Simple and special learning is not necessary. But this is a completely cave look. From somewhere from the depths of centuries.
      1. yehat
        yehat 10 June 2016 13: 47
        0
        but you must admit, in principle, the AK-12 is not better than the AK-74. Yes, a little more convenient, but that's all.
        People logically ask, why do we need AK-12?
        1. overb
          overb 10 June 2016 14: 16
          +1
          Quote: yehat
          but you must admit, in principle, the AK-12 is not better than the AK-74.

          I cannot say with certainty about the AK-12. But I am very afraid that it was made according to the scheme "we treat one thing, we cripple the other."
          As I wrote earlier, the "legendary mechanism" became obsolete back in 1974. Since it was made for self-loading weapons with the ability to conduct automatic fire (AK-47 / AK / AKM). But its use in automatic weapons (AK-74), in my opinion, was already wrong then. It's just that, in my opinion, he was not suitable for this type of weapon, he could not work normally there.
  23. fa2998
    fa2998 8 June 2016 13: 59
    -1
    Quote: skeptic
    and fell neighboring targets (in the general result).

    With us, you can't get overwhelmed, the command from the district came for a check, you just can't turn the weapon. Although it was at the request of the company command that he felled targets for two efr. Nechiporenko and never received more than 3 in the daytime, but here the night ones were "excellent." repeat hi
  24. RussKamikadZE
    RussKamikadZE 8 June 2016 14: 01
    0
    Quote: overb
    Quote: RussKamikadZE
    Why spend money on AK-12? For conscripts - even ak74m is too good.

    If you treat the soldiers as cannon fodder, then yes, a sapper blade will be enough. Simple and special learning is not necessary. But this is a completely cave look. From somewhere from the depths of centuries.

    What can you learn in a year of deadline, where you will only shoot a couple of times? By "too good," I wanted to say that even older versions of the ak-74 will suit them quite well.
    1. overb
      overb 8 June 2016 14: 48
      +2
      Quote: RussKamikadZE
      What can you learn in a year of urgency, where you will only shoot a couple of times?

      Bears can be taught to ride a motorcycle in a year. Only need to be taught. Year, this is a huge time.
      But most of all, you need to teach a soldier tactics in battle. For 2 years no one has ever taught me this. As for now, I don’t know.
      1. RussKamikadZE
        RussKamikadZE 8 June 2016 15: 56
        0
        Quote: overb
        Quote: RussKamikadZE
        What can you learn in a year of urgency, where you will only shoot a couple of times?

        Bears can be taught to ride a motorcycle in a year. Only need to be taught. Year, this is a huge time.
        But most of all, you need to teach a soldier tactics in battle. For 2 years no one has ever taught me this. As for now, I don’t know.

        Exactly what needs to be taught. But still, let's get back to discussing the article. No replacement AK-74 is now required. Ak-12 is not needed either by conscripts, not SPN. I am silent about AEK and Abakan. This is exactly what I said in my first message.
        1. overb
          overb 8 June 2016 17: 25
          +2
          Quote: RussKamikadZE
          No replacement AK-74 is now required. Ak-12 is not needed either by conscripts, not SPN. I am silent about AEK and Abakan.

          I don’t know who is needed and who is not needed. But the terms of the competition must be different. It is necessary that the parties present their samples with trunks 500-520 mm long and n / s bullets of the order of 930 m / s. And here is the one who can achieve the accuracy of automatic fire level M16A4 (the main competitor) and should be put into production.
          The rest is cunning.
          The new cartridge, it's even funny to discuss.
          TTX on a 415 mm barrel is not entirely satisfactory.
          Accuracy in old Soviet models, even on a barrel of 415 mm, is insufficient.
          1. berezin1987
            8 June 2016 18: 16
            -1
            I do not quite agree with you. The standard barrel length for assault rifles in most countries is 16 inches (416 mm). The AK family meets this criterion. To increase the length of the barrel with a constant length of the weapon requires the use of the layout - bullpup, which has its drawbacks. An alternative to bullpup is the use of interchangeable trunks of various lengths in the machine
            1. overb
              overb 8 June 2016 18: 32
              +3
              Quote: berezin1987
              The standard barrel length for assault rifles in most countries is 16 inches (416 mm). The AK family meets this criterion.

              And why the Russian army assault (weakened) rifle? The Russian army needs an army (full) rifle. Or at least an army rifle minus. Because on a soviet cartridge a 5,45 mm full-fledged army rifle cannot be obtained without expensive gunpowder.
              Quote: berezin1987
              To increase the length of the barrel with a constant length of the weapon requires the use of the layout - bullpup, which has its drawbacks.

              Barrel М16А4 508 mm. And without any "perversions".
              Quote: berezin1987
              use in the machine replaceable shafts of various lengths

              So without these in particular.
              1. berezin1987
                8 June 2016 19: 19
                -1
                Logistics during storage and transportation, seats in armored personnel carriers and other equipment are sharpened for AK length. Strongly increase the length does not work, it complicates the use of weapons in cramped conditions and the landing / landing
                1. overb
                  overb 8 June 2016 20: 15
                  +3
                  Quote: berezin1987
                  Under the length of AK sharpened logistics during storage and transportation

                  This is PPC, not an argument. Sharpened and under a different length. Machine gunners with 590 mm barrels are somehow placed and do not fall out on the go.
  25. DesToeR
    DesToeR 8 June 2016 16: 06
    +5
    AK-74 should remain the main weapon of the Russian army in the event of a major war. More interesting to me is the idea of ​​modernizing millions of warehouse AK-74 / AK-74M by installing high-quality body kit at a price of 300-400 cu

    Question to the author: what did you intend to put on the AK-74 for $ 300-400? Where do such wild prices for "body kit" for a machine cost $ 400-600 come from? Magpool? Anti-aircraft gun? A plastic forend with risplanks and a telescopic stock at a domestic enterprise should not cost so much.
  26. Whowhy
    Whowhy 8 June 2016 16: 58
    +2
    In fact, we are not talking about making some kind of super-duper machine. The point is that millions have already accumulated in the warehouses of the Kalash, and, in my deep conviction, this is a good weapon for combined arms units. And for those who need something special, the Institute of Engineering Physics makes from what there are small series according to the principle "what you please".
    Thus, in order to keep the working groups of gunsmiths alive, it was necessary to come up with this very rearmament and competition.
    The point is that in all countries there is an intense race to create an effective weapon for the soldier based on "new" physical principles. And as soon as this weapon is created, huge financial and technological resources will be needed for its production.
    So, gentlemen, comrades, brothers, I am sure that they will not adopt the most effective model, but the cheapest one, so that our gunsmiths, while the essence of the matter, do not die of hunger ...
    1. berezin1987
      8 June 2016 18: 11
      +2
      Weapons on illegal armed groups require a huge amount of energy. So far, such installations are placed only on large warships no less than a destroyer or powerful tractors with a mobile power station. The maximum capabilities of hand weapons on illegal armed groups today are blinding the enemy with a laser beam. In the USSR, samples of laser pistols for astronauts were created to blind the enemy in space. Today, there is no real alternative to firearms. The peak of design thought in my opinion is the A-545 and AH-94 / G11 machines (the level of 70-80 years). Everything else uses constructive solutions a century ago.
      1. yehat
        yehat 10 June 2016 13: 55
        0
        Now work is underway to adapt weapons to specific conditions.
        And in the West there are a number of new developments on these topics.
        The British and Americans are doing a lot of work to develop a new main cartridge for urban fighting. The Israelis made a number of ergonomic and layout decisions again for urban battles.
        The Americans are working on a radical increase in the range of dense precise fire.
        In Europe, a lot of new things in the pistol class and SMG.
        Even the Chinese made their bullpup - not very successful, but they tried and did.
        NOT worth the development in place!
  27. Michael HORNET
    Michael HORNET 8 June 2016 17: 08
    +1
    What is needed is not a new machine gun, but a fundamentally new rifle COMPLEX
    Which includes
    1. Cartridge 6,5 Grendel (6,5x39) - a single cartridge FOR ALL infantry weapons up to and including the company
    The 5.45 cartridge remains with the National Guard and all low-alert units
    The cartridge 7,62x54 remains only for machine guns mounted on equipment
    Under the cartridge is done:
    2. PDV type AKSU or rather CAS PDV
    3. The shortened machine with a collimator
    4. Standard machine with optics 1-4x20
    5. Marxman assault rifle (replacing SVD) - that is, a high-precision rifle for shooting at 0-800 m with an optical sight of 1-6x24, which can even have auto fire and short-range shooters with it will not be a useless burden (as is the case with SVD)
    6. A single machine gun, which now in the MCO can even have as many as two (the weight of the ammunition is less than one and a half times)
    7. You can even replace the BCC / Shaft with analogues in the Grendel's US version, the caliber allows you to use bullets weighing up to 11 g approximately - this is enough up to 200 m, but this is an option, it is important that the cartridge, like 7,62x39, allows its use in low noise unlike 5.45

    Grendel machine gun
    -Has a single cartridge with the entire compartment
    - has a firing accuracy ABOVE the PC machine gun, due to the lower recoil it allows you to more quickly track and make corrections - in general, the effectiveness of fire from it will be higher AT ALL firing ranges
    - the power of a bullet at the PC level, at least at short distances, is inferior unprincipled, and exceeds by more than 500 m! I repeat once again - 9 g bullet cartridge Grendel after 500 m muzzle energy exceeds the standard bullet 9,6 g LPS and bullet 7N1 cartridge 7,62x54
    - has a noticeably better machine gun maneuverability (since it weighs less)
    - allows the machine gunner and the department as a whole to carry more cartridges for a machine gun, and - much more, plus a single ammunition for all, in principle, and our belts are not loose, but 25 rounds
    - The resource of the barrel exceeds the resource of the barrel at 7,62x54 times one and a half
    1. overb
      overb 8 June 2016 17: 32
      +7
      Quote: Michael HORNET
      1. Cartridge 6,5 Grendel (6,5x39) - a single cartridge FOR ALL infantry weapons up to and including the company

      God forbid. Although, the probability of this is so small.
      No one needs this horror on the shaggy legs (Grendal), and for many years, why will the Russian army need it?
      Quote: Michael HORNET
      Grendel machine gun
      -Has a single cartridge with the entire compartment
      - has a firing accuracy ABOVE the PC machine gun, due to the lower recoil it allows you to more quickly track and make corrections - in general, the effectiveness of fire from it will be higher AT ALL firing ranges
      - the power of a bullet at the PC level, at least at short distances, is inferior unprincipled, and exceeds by more than 500 m! I repeat once again - 9 g bullet cartridge Grendel after 500 m muzzle energy exceeds the standard bullet 9,6 g LPS and bullet 7N1 cartridge 7,62x54
      - has a noticeably better machine gun maneuverability (since it weighs less)
      - allows the machine gunner and the department as a whole to carry more cartridges for a machine gun, and - much more, plus a single ammunition for all, in principle, and our belts are not loose, but 25 rounds
      - The resource of the barrel exceeds the resource of the barrel at 7,62x54 times one and a half

      That's all this, I'm sorry, the amateur nonsense.
  28. Backfire
    Backfire 8 June 2016 17: 12
    -2
    It's just that Kalashnikov is easier to handle and learn as a rookie than Abakan. Abakan is well suited for elite units and for the National Guard.
    1. sibiryouk
      sibiryouk 8 June 2016 17: 43
      +3
      And that the recruits are now completely dumb or we draw them from the 50-60s of the last century from deaf timber industry enterprises!
  29. berezin1987
    8 June 2016 17: 55
    +1
    Who cares, they can watch the video about AEK-971 on the channel of Sergey Badyuk in YouTube. Sergey announced the test of the AN-94 assault rifle in the following videos.
  30. berezin1987
    8 June 2016 18: 25
    -1
    The most effective way to increase the effectiveness of weapons is to increase the RPA. DPV increase by increasing the initial velocity of the bullet, but it also increases the recoil momentum. Therefore, you have to reduce the caliber of weapons and use bullets of lower mass. Look at the trend and see a constant decrease in the caliber of weapons with an increase in the initial velocity of the bullet. Now we have reached the 4,6 mm in the HK MP-7.
    1. overb
      overb 8 June 2016 18: 40
      +3
      Quote: berezin1987
      The most effective way to increase the effectiveness of weapons is to increase the RPA.

      The easiest way is to increase the n / s of the bullet. An increase in DPV is only one of the consequences of this.
      Quote: berezin1987
      but at the same time the recoil momentum is growing. Therefore, you have to reduce the caliber of weapons and use bullets of lower mass.

      And also use balanced automation mechanisms. Not "legendary".
      If, on a serial cartridge 5,45 mm, increasing the barrel length to 500-520 mm, bring the bullet s / s to 730 m / s, then the recoil impulse will be 4,7 kgm / s, versus 5,28 kgm / s for the M16A2. Now 4,6 kgm / s and there are already problems with the accuracy of automatic fire. Therefore, only balanced automation, there is no other way out. In principle, the "legendary mechanism" had to be abandoned back in 1974. But they preferred the tit in the sky. Now you have to disentangle.
      1. Igor39
        Igor39 8 June 2016 19: 09
        0
        So now the speed on it is 910 m / s, why reduce it?
        1. overb
          overb 8 June 2016 20: 05
          +1
          Quote: Igor39
          so the speed now on it is 910 m / s, why reduce it?

          Now the AK-74 900 m / s. But there, wildly sorry, a little blot. Of course, 930 m / s, the length of the barrel should be increased. Accordingly, n / s will increase.
      2. berezin1987
        8 June 2016 19: 24
        -1
        Not all of the cartridge pulse can be compensated by balanced automation. The balancer only compensates for the momentum of the moving parts of the weapons automation. But what about the momentum of the bullet itself and the powder gases escaping from their barrel? Partially, the impulse from the powder gases can be compensated for by the muzzle brake, but the muzzle brake hits the shooter's ears hard. Bullet momentum still remains
        1. overb
          overb 8 June 2016 20: 09
          +3
          Quote: berezin1987
          Not all of the cartridge pulse can be compensated by balanced automation.

          Suggest another solution. As I understand it, it was possible to balance the recoil impulse of a conventional AK-74 (4,6 kgm / s). But we need to balance 4,7 kgm / s. What other solution?
          Moreover, life does not end. And there is no point in holding on to the decision "on the verge of collapse". Besides, it is quite old today.
          In my opinion, the days of the "legendary mechanism" are long gone. They never came, again in my opinion. The concept of individual automatic weapons, which was adopted by the USSR after the war, is very controversial. And she had no more followers in the world. And the creation of the AK-74, a completely different weapon, on the same mechanism, is a mistake at all.
          1. berezin1987
            8 June 2016 22: 03
            +3
            The legendary reliability of Kalashnikov assault rifles is ensured by using the energy of powder gases with a long stroke of the gas piston, as well as the maximum allowable recoil speeds of the shutter frame with the shutter. The recoil energy of the bolt group is enough to overcome obstacles in the form of dirt, dust, sand, etc. The kinematics of the moving parts is so calculated. True, this decision adversely affected accuracy. As for the AK-74, in terms of accuracy of fire in bursts it surpasses the m-16, slightly inferior in accuracy to accuracy in single shots. This is achieved through the use of a cartridge with a lower impulse and an effective compensator. So do not say that the AK-74 is bullshit. At the time of his appearance in 70's, he had practically no competitors in his class in terms of reliability and accuracy of battle
            1. overb
              overb 9 June 2016 00: 06
              -1
              Quote: berezin1987
              The legendary reliability of Kalashnikov assault rifles

              In fact, the reliability of the AK-47 is average. This is just such a myth. And then, with what to compare. If with Soviet products, then yes. If with normal products of well-known companies, then no.
              Quote: berezin1987
              True, this decision adversely affected accuracy.

              In fact, this is one of the most important indicators for automatic weapons. Although, just the AK-47 was not a truly automatic weapon. This is a self-loading weapon with a built-in automatic fire. A fully-fledged automatic weapon is the AK-74.
              Quote: berezin1987
              then in terms of accuracy of fire in bursts it surpasses m-16

              It’s even somewhat funny.
              Quote: berezin1987
              slightly inferior in accuracy to single shots.

              At 400 m 5%. Actually, this is decent.
              Quote: berezin1987
              So do not say that the AK-74 is bullshit.

              This is an assault (weakened) author. rifle. And the army in good need an army aut. rifle. Or at least an army bus. rifle minus. Of course, full, with an acceptable accuracy of fire.
              And "bullshit" is not a specific concept.
              Quote: berezin1987
              At the time of his appearance in the 70s, he had practically no competitors in his class in terms of reliability and accuracy of battle

              And again it's funny. Keeping the "legendary mechanism", the AK-74 cartridge was weakened to the point, making the bullet lighter as much as possible. As a result, the AK-74 was inferior even to the M16A1 (a full-fledged army rifle, but so-so), with which it was made. Ideologically, of course, it is not constructive. And already the last nail in the lid was driven by М16А2. Against her, the AK-74 had no chance at all.
            2. The comment was deleted.
            3. yehat
              yehat 10 June 2016 14: 04
              0
              the problem of accuracy of the Ak-74 is not only in the design, but also in the quality of the manufacture of the barrel and cartridge. You give an example for a reference high-quality machine made and for the selected cartridges. And for combat weapons, the characteristics are much sadder.
        2. yehat
          yehat 10 June 2016 14: 01
          0
          physics cannot be deceived. if you need a large momentum of a bullet, the machine itself will receive the opposite one. The only alternative is fiction in the form of lasers and rockets.
  31. RussKamikadZE
    RussKamikadZE 8 June 2016 18: 30
    +1
    Quote: sibiryouk
    And that the recruits are now completely dumb or we draw them from the 50-60s of the last century from deaf timber industry enterprises!

    They are different. There are smart, there are strong, there are dumb, there are weak. And why are you so rude about the guys from the timber industry enterprises?
  32. akm8226
    akm8226 8 June 2016 19: 16
    -1
    Citizens - what are you arguing about?))) Where are the numbers? Where are the comparative characteristics of all applicants, summarized in the table?
    No?
    Well?
    The joke is simple.
    From the point of view of me, as an active user of the AK machine, I’ll say the seditious phrase - why should I have a super-duper fancy screw if it does not shoot at the right time from dirt? Why do I need super-duper accuracy and cutoff of two bullets, if the problem of slaughter is solved by the presence of a specialized cartridge and bullet? Anyway, the total mass of soldiers will never be snipers. A correctly posed question is half the answer. Ask yourself - why did you need such a twist as cutting off two or three cartridges? And then, to surely put the enemy. But here comes the conclusion - therefore, one bullet is clearly not enough to guarantee the end of the adversary, because all bullets in excess of two go past the ticket office. So it’s easier and cheaper to design a special cartridge and a bullet to it or sculpt a brand new barrel under the old cartridge, with the same lethal characteristics? A properly trained soldier in any case puts the first two bullets at a target from any AK. So why the city?
    Let them bring to mind the AK-12 and the new ammunition to it - and the whole business.
  33. Babalaykin
    Babalaykin 8 June 2016 19: 17
    +1
    1. The time of the AN-94 has passed.

    2. A545 is a dark horse.

    3.
    modernization of millions of warehouse AK-74 / AK-74M by installing high-quality body kit at a price of 300-400 cu


    pff, there is an opinion that the new machine for the MO is cheaper ... what dollars for body kits.
    Perhaps some part will be dismantled and allowed for spare parts, but IMHO, it makes no sense.

    And with Kalash, the stereotype that always shoots past.

    Let's hope the strongest wins.
    1. cast iron
      cast iron 9 June 2016 02: 09
      0
      Kalash, although he always shoots past, but if he hits, he will break through the rail through. Along. ;)
  34. Michael HORNET
    Michael HORNET 8 June 2016 19: 22
    +1
    Quote: overb
    Quote: berezin1987
    The most effective way to increase the effectiveness of weapons is to increase the RPA.

    The easiest way is to increase the n / s of the bullet. An increase in DPV is only one of the consequences of this.
    Quote: berezin1987
    but at the same time the recoil momentum is growing. Therefore, you have to reduce the caliber of weapons and use bullets of lower mass.

    And also use balanced automation mechanisms. Not "legendary".
    If, on a serial cartridge 5,45 mm, increasing the barrel length to 500-520 mm, bring the bullet s / s to 730 m / s, then the recoil impulse will be 4,7 kgm / s, versus 5,28 kgm / s for the M16A2. Now 4,6 kgm / s and there are already problems with the accuracy of automatic fire. Therefore, only balanced automation, there is no other way out. In principle, the "legendary mechanism" had to be abandoned back in 1974. But they preferred the tit in the sky. Now you have to disentangle.


    Yes, a connoisseur is visible - he heard something, but he knows neither horseradish and does not understand the essence, but he imagines himself ...
    Are you Grendel then at least not in the picture, but in action then you saw? I’ve already fired about myself and I’m not saying it’s not for people like you
    Small-caliber weapons showed that they essentially reached a dead end, it works well up to 200 m, well, even up to 250 m, but already at 300 m there is no good stability of hits
    And now the demands of the wars of TODAY, and not yesterday, say that it is necessary to increase the possible range of actual fire of small arms specifically
    You can do this only as follows -
    1. Refusal of senseless firing in that direction by bursts of small-caliber cartridges
    2. The transition to a cartridge with a high ballistic coefficient of the bullet
    3. Equipping weapons with optics
    4. Increase soldier training
    5. Introduction with machine guns of a single cartridge, for the purpose of increasing wearable ammunition for machine guns - the main means of destruction of the MCO
    (That is, the mass of the cartridge for the machine gun, yes, will increase, but the mass of the cartridge for the machine gun will also decrease, while maintaining its ballistic capabilities)
    The hope of firing a burst in that direction is the reality of 70 years ago, those who prepare for past wars will inevitably lose
    Speed ​​by the way, and so in 223 was as high as possible - the standard M193 3,56 g cartridge from M16A1 gave 990 m / s - much more. However, due to the low ballistic coefficient of the bullet, all this was quickly inhibited. At the same time, barrel survivability was low
    Modern 5.45 cartridges from the machine gun accelerate to 900 m / s nominally, while the BC of domestic bullets is slightly larger than the standard 4 g of NATO cartridge, the speed is slightly less with the same barrel length
    If you accelerate more due to gunpowder, the barrel's survivability drops catastrophically. If you do this by increasing the length of the barrel - it will be an inconvenience to use weapons - there’s not much for RPK fans with its 590 mm barrel in the army) and the WPV is growing by a penny - everything eats up the ballistic coefficient of the bullet (but you don’t know, you don’t did not hear about it)
    It is more practical to increase the ballistic coefficient by increasing the caliber and with moderate acceleration of the bullet and high survivability of the barrel get a high probability of hitting up to 800 m
    We recently shot from the AR-15 at Grendel at 400-600 m - a very high probability of hitting the chest and even the head target from the first shot, using an experienced shooter and an optical sight)
    At the same time, I myself confidently fell into the barrage of a growth figure of 600 m from a RPK of 7,62x39 and weapons of 7,62x39 with a barrel length of 555 mm
    1. overb
      overb 8 June 2016 20: 41
      +1
      Quote: Michael HORNET
      Yes, a connoisseur is visible - he heard something, but he knows neither horseradish and does not understand the essence, but he imagines himself ...

      Very, very bad person, immediately visible. crying
      Small-caliber weapons showed that they essentially reached a dead end, it works well up to 200 m, well, even up to 250 m, but already at 300 m there is no good stability of hits

      Oh. But what about the M16A4? After all, vilely refutes your allegations.
      Hope to shoot the line in that direction

      This is what you need for AK-47 / AK / AKM fans to tell. Because only this weapon is your statement and applies. But the trouble is, they have not been mass-produced for more than 40 years. And you are all struggling with them.
      from M16A1 gave 990 m / s

      NSD claims about 975 m / s. But this is so, nitpicking.
      due to the low ballistic coefficient of the bullet, all this was quickly inhibited

      It is more appropriate to talk about SS109. She has a decent BC. In addition, BC, this is a double-edged sword. In external ballistics it is desirable to have more of it, in wound, less. Therefore, they seek compromises.
      with the same barrel length

      Perhaps 415 and 508 mm are the same values. I did not measure. wassat
      If you accelerate more due to gunpowder, the barrel’s vitality drops dramatically

      Are you talking about the M16A4? And why do they not know about this problem? laughing
      something of RPK lovers with its 590 mm barrel in the army a little

      And what, someone offered machines with a barrel length of 590 mm?
      It is more practical to increase the ballistic coefficient by increasing the caliber and with moderate acceleration of the bullet and high survivability of the barrel get a high probability of hitting up to 800 m

      MILAY. I am not even sending you to Grendel, but to a much smaller Chinese cartridge of 5,8x42 mm. There was no one who wanted to make weapons on it, except for the Chinese. Think about it, why would it?
      Remind me of Barrett? There were a million of them, the last in my opinion was called REC7 Gen II. Doesn’t say anything?
      In fact, we got already with this Grendel. Full of negative examples around, they see nothing.
      Quote: Michael HORNET
      very high probability of hitting

      The army is not a CSKA sports community. Army weapons should be FELL, and not just hit. Learn wound ballistics, damn it. Just sit down and study once. Because after studying, close with this Grendel once and for all.
  35. Michael HORNET
    Michael HORNET 8 June 2016 19: 35
    +4
    Hope for a balanced scheme - it's generally enchanting
    Have you ever held this miracle in your hands, disassembled it? Do you know how everything is arranged inside there and what "reliable" technical solutions are applied there?
    Oh, you read in the magazine ...
    On the Example of Saigi 107 - it is KILLOGRAM heavier than the Ak-74, it has yes, it has lower returns and is more stable - but it does this with a powerful DTK that hits the ears with a sledgehammer
    With ordinary DTC, the difference will not be so great
    AK-74 with a lightweight frame gives about the same, but inside does not resemble a cuckoo clock)
    Yes, yes, just for conscripts this very balanced automation
    How many cartridges you say, you can carry on yourself, to power this very automatics by firing in long bursts (and 2 rounds and AK-74, in general, it does)
    The bogeyman of the person who read about shooting from the same experts)))
    1. overb
      overb 8 June 2016 20: 18
      +2
      Quote: Michael HORNET
      Have you ever held this miracle in your hands, disassembled it? Do you know how everything is arranged inside there and what "reliable" technical solutions are applied there?

      There are actually several of them. And you can come up with a dozen new ones. Which of these ten are you writing about?
      Quote: Michael HORNET
      The bogeyman of the person who read about shooting from the same experts)))

      Self-criticism is good.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  36. Michael HORNET
    Michael HORNET 8 June 2016 21: 07
    +3
    Technically, the most interesting solutions were in the AN-94
    Specifically, the idea of ​​"2 bullets, one shot" has been implemented. Nobody has such a thing. But the system turned out to be overly complicated, in fact it was NOT overpowered even in the special forces and any units of high alert, not to mention any conscripts
    Plus, the death of the designer, and there is still finish and finish
    As a result, the AN-94 did not go not for economic reasons, as they say here, they say, the 90s, devastation, but purely for technical reasons - the army refused to accept it in fact
    Then they decided that the loot should still be mastered, the staff was already lost - so they decided to get the old ideas from the zashniks, rename them, make a marafet cosmetically and try to drag them the third time
    As a result, again it did not work, oddly enough
    Against this background, an attempt to push the AK-12 looks the least odious - the old good design is preserved here, the moving parts are lightened according to a well-known recipe and a stable top cover for optics is added
    You can do even better for accuracy and speed of fire, but then you have to change it more and more radically, move away from the previous construction scheme completely (the recipes have already been tried a hundred times))
    But all this is useless if the caliber remains the same 5.45 - everything rests on the fact that the cartridge was designed for a massive battle of huge masses of infantry with the participation of WMDs and tank wedges
    But in reality we have a "proxy war", conflicts of low intensity but large scale and significance, and here we need a completely different cartridge, much more long-range
    Accordingly, the value of firing bursts in that direction affects only the same idiots from the other side, and real combat-ready units will destroy such would-be infantry from an unattainable distance, leaving them no chance "to come closer and then we will ..."
  37. Michael HORNET
    Michael HORNET 8 June 2016 21: 39
    +4
    In M16A1, the speed in the directories is 990m / s, poke your nose into the scans?
    But not the point, these are nominal tabular data
    Now the main weapon of the US Army is not M16A4 at all, but M4A1, with a full-line regime
    He cannot accelerate the bullet to the speeds that were previously in full-size rifles
    Well, they are trying to use the not yet standardized within the framework of NATO 77 gran bullet in order to achieve more stable work at a distance, out of economy, but the concept of switching to 6,8 Rem ATP is gaining more and more fans
    Talk about the insufficiency of wound ballistics 6,5 Grendel stupid and show the level of the interlocutor, since the bullets of this caliber have been used for more than a century in war and hunting and work great
    Grendel successfully works in the range of bullets from 100 to 140 grains (6,5-9 g), preferably the main bullet is 123 grains (8 g, ammunition up to 0.510) and for machine guns 139/140 gran-9 g ammunition up to 0,578
    Let me remind you that BC 5.45 bullets 7N10 0.293
    1. overb
      overb 8 June 2016 23: 43
      +1
      Quote: Michael HORNET
      In M16A1, the speed in the directories is 990m / s, poke your nose into the scans?

      Poke if you can. Only make sure that the chamber is for the army (military model). Tell me what it's called? There are actually a million of them.
      Quote: Michael HORNET
      Now the main weapon of the US Army is not M16A4 at all, but M4A1, with a full-line regime

      Wah! But the guys in the US Army do not know this. Darkness what to say.
      You are a big dreamer.
      Quote: Michael HORNET
      that used to be in full-size rifles

      But where did these same full-size rifles go? Did you eat a mole?
      Quote: Michael HORNET
      He cannot accelerate a bullet to those speeds

      Short-barrel? Of course.
      Quote: Michael HORNET
      Well, they are trying to use the not yet standardized within the framework of NATO 77 gran bullet

      In fact, they are going to replace the M4 with a military version of the Colt Expanse M4. This is your info in the form of a secret.
      Quote: Michael HORNET
      but the concept of switching to 6,8 Rem ATP is gaining more and more fans

      Oh yeah. And these fans go, bow to the magical chamber. But they are not being massively adopted. Strange.
      Quote: Michael HORNET
      Talk about the failure of wound ballistics 6,5 Grendel stupid and show the level of the interlocutor

      Quote: Michael HORNET
      for more than a century, both in war and in hunting

      And then. Those. you have never heard of wound ballistics. My condolences to you. You can continue to tell us about the "promising Grendal". By the way, do you remember how many years he has been promising? Ah, already 13. Well, well.
      Quote: Michael HORNET
      BC to 0,578
      Let me remind you that BC 5.45 bullets 7N10 0.293

      Those. infa that BC, this double-edged sword whizzed past you. And also my condolences to you.
  38. kirpich
    kirpich 8 June 2016 22: 12
    +1
    Quote: inkass_98
    For the wartime army, we have enough stocks of AKs of various series, but for professionals we already need something more modern.


    And, here is an ambush. They offer a lot of things, but they cannot offer something significant, for which our soldiers would catch on and say - "Oh, let's see (shoot), compare.
    Maybe it's worth reviewing forgotten projects? After all, there were such innovations that even now seem fantastic.
  39. Michael HORNET
    Michael HORNET 9 June 2016 02: 14
    0
    AEK - at 5.45 and especially at 7,62 - a good and even good machine gun for all kinds of special forces, primarily for targeted assault groups,
    There, as a rule, there is no dirt, experienced operators and competent technical support. Just his perfect niche
    His Justice Ministry and bought an hour per teaspoon
    But as such, for some reason it has not been announced and in fact all the security forces are armed with ordinary Kalashnikovs in both calibers, and 7,62 is more popular among them (at least in the reports "from the scene, he is a very frequent guest)
    However, now instead of AEK, security forces are switching to AK-400 7,62x39 and 5.45 - something between a shortening and a standard (I don’t know how massive it will be)
  40. Michael HORNET
    Michael HORNET 9 June 2016 10: 36
    0
    For information, officially "their" cartridge 6,5 Grendel and "our" 6,5x39 were registered in the PMK only in 2012, in May, everything else was just a background
    But AEK appeared already in 1978, here three quarters of the participants in the discussion have not yet been born)
  41. yehat
    yehat 9 June 2016 10: 46
    +2
    AK-12 would have been good 20 years ago, very good 40 years ago.
    Now is another time. Need automatic weapons for an effective battle at distances up to 400m
    and the ak-12 is not capable of this from the word at all.
    AEK 545 is capable, but again, not "naked", fine-tuning is needed, you need sights, you need quality workmanship of both weapons and cartridges, you need integration with the warrior.
    ps I absolutely do not understand what the detachment with the AK-12 will do in fire contact with a modernly armed group. Up to 150-200m you can still shoot, and then how ??? And how a small gain in weight will help in this.
    1. Droid
      Droid 10 June 2016 08: 22
      0
      Need automatic weapons for an effective battle at distances up to 400m
      and the ak-12 is not capable of this from the word at all.

      Open the AC74 NSD and find out that the DES of the machine is up to 500 m.
      1. yehat
        yehat 10 June 2016 14: 28
        0
        yeah, and DES DDS says that up to 900m (different sources and write differently)
        but experts recommend shooting up to 300m, because then the predictability of the bullet’s flight drops noticeably. TTX, especially official ones, do not all reflect.
        there, the Germans of the G36 want to withdraw from service, although everything is OK in the manual and even in official tests,
  42. Michael HORNET
    Michael HORNET 9 June 2016 19: 42
    +2
    Without changing the cartridge by 6,5, it is in no way possible to increase the effective destruction range
    Although the Ak-12, even though the AEKs have the same effective range - no more than 250 m, 300 m with a stretch
    At the same time, the 7,62x39 long barrel also works confidently up to 300 m, but from 300 to 600 m it has a very high probability of hitting a growth target (and even a thoracic one), while correction on hits (in optics) is possible on some soils. Hits 5.45 are practically invisible on the ground after 100 m
    Also, the issue of firing at 200+ meters encounters the need for an automatic (not collimator) sight of a class 1-4 on the machine
    Well, or at least a collimator with magnifir, but this is an outdated poor technical solution
    It is also advisable to minimize the arrow error in determining the range,
    1. overb
      overb 9 June 2016 20: 12
      +2
      Quote: Michael HORNET
      Without changing the cartridge by 6,5, it is in no way possible to increase the effective destruction range

      There are a number of inexpensive ways. It is not at all necessary to start with the most expensive, new cartridge. Yes, and this ... bad, to say the least. If we take a new cartridge, then high-quality. Of course, even a 6 mm caliber will not fall into this category.
      Quote: Michael HORNET
      Although the Ak-12, even though the AEKs have the same effective range - no more than 250 m, 300 m with a stretch

      Finally, the Soviet 5,45 mm cartridge on the 415 mm barrel at a range of up to 350 m is not bad at all. And the AK-74 is actually an automatic assault rifle plus. But for the norm, he lacks another 60-100 m. By lengthening the barrel and increasing the n / s of the bullet to 930 m / s, this range can be reached up to 380 m. But this is the maximum. More than an army automatic rifle minus the standard Soviet 5,45 mm cartridge can not be squeezed. But the question of balance and accuracy remains unresolved.
      Quote: Michael HORNET
      The length of the barrel 7,62x39 at the same time also works confidently up to 300 m

      AK / 47 / AK / AKM (I don't know what a "long barrel" is) work. But only with a single fire. And automatic, only 100 m. A strange weapon of completely incomprehensible purpose. Somehow managed to sneak into the army.
      Quote: Michael HORNET
      has a very high probability of defeat

      Oh, these "athletes" for me. Defeat is not annihilation. This sporting weapon is designed for defeat. And hunting and army, for destruction. Try to understand the difference. Between the carcass and a piece of paper.
      Quote: Michael HORNET
      Hits 5.45 are practically invisible on the ground after 100 m

      But in the carcass they are visible very clearly.
      1. Samuel Marshak
        Samuel Marshak 16 June 2016 05: 57
        0
        Let me disagree with you: the purpose of using hunting weapons is to get game (kill). In war, the task is not always worth it. The target must be incapacitated, ideally done so that it cannot harm allies and create as many problems as possible for the enemy. An example is an enemy soldier wounded in the limb, screaming in pain. The enemy is delighted, now he needs to be pulled out from under the shelling, provide assistance, evacuate .... the task of "harming more" is completed
        1. overb
          overb 16 June 2016 21: 07
          +1
          Quote: Samuel Marshak
          In war, the task is not always worth it. The target must be incapacitated, ideally done so that it cannot harm allies and create as many problems as possible for the enemy. An example is an enemy soldier wounded in the limb, screaming in pain. The enemy is delighted, now he needs to be pulled out from under the shelling, provide assistance, evacuate .... the task of "do more harm" is completed

          Do not watch "war movies". Nobody from the combat staff, nobody and anywhere will drag. Even the lieutenant. There is a regular orderly, these are his problems. And to whom he did not have time, this is his. Personal.
          But there is another option. The wounded man will inject an anesthetic into himself, and with this yeast he will be able to put the wounded in a couple of shots. Or someone else.
          Therefore, it is not worth telling Internet tales. And weapons are not calculated like that. At a strictly defined distance, a strictly defined bullet must have a strictly defined flight speed. In order to hit the target with a probability close to 100%, he fell the victim. The distance is determined by the type of weapon. The final speed of a bullet is determined by its characteristics and parameters. And about intentional injuries, this is nonsense from the movie.
          1. Samuel Marshak
            Samuel Marshak 17 June 2016 04: 05
            +1
            This is a speech! Bravo! In order.
            1. Tell your mom which films to watch.
            2.About who and whom should drag. But we pulled out and did not particularly look at the title. Including from the shot area. Smoke threw forward and until the poor fellow bleeding has not expired. And the problem with the orderlies is that there are few of them and they are located as luck would have it somewhere. It was only in toys that he called a medic and he was right there.
            3. I had seen enough of the wounded and didn’t see nirazu that the wounded man could help himself, including making an injection. Only yells, if in consciousness, but swear.
            4. What you call Internet tales is unknown to me, I communicate with you through the Internet.
            5.How weapons are calculated and ammunition is not known to me, I do not judge this.
            6. I pointed out the difference between the tasks of hunting and combat weapons, and also showed an example of a good result of fire contact with the enemy.
            7.Tip: if you get into the army (by accident) and refuse to help get your wounded out - you'll be beaten)
            1. overb
              overb 17 June 2016 09: 49
              0
              That's because hamloe is illiterate. But I’ll answer once.
              1. For your mother, Sema, someone and someday you still rip your legs.
              2. You could pull out only a trifle from my father’s pocket on the ice cream. For 70 years there has been no war in Russia. If you haven’t noticed, I remind you.
              3. I don’t know which films you've seen enough, but in normal armies, soldiers usually know how to use an individual. first-aid kits.
              6. You repeated the Internet tales. There are a million of them, no one else needs yours.
              7. Advice, you will get out of the world of dreams and God forbid you will fall into a real war, if you are not a medical orderly, without a written order do not drag the wounded to the rear. Shot like a deserter. And they will be right. In war, everyone has their own task.
    2. yehat
      yehat 10 June 2016 14: 32
      +2
      Quote: Michael HORNET

      It is also advisable to minimize the arrow error in determining the range,

      Americans want to introduce a special calculator for guidance, so that any sucker could shoot like an experienced long-range shooter.
      Now this miracle costs $ 3000 but its price may decrease. So far, they are only testing with sniper rifles.
  43. Droid
    Droid 10 June 2016 08: 17
    +1
    Quote: yehat
    it looks like a fantasy. Suppose you can aim at such a distance, and pretend that enemies do not hide and growth goals exist, but ...

    No fiction and no but ...
    DPV on the running 625 m. And it does not depend on what the soldier sees there or he does not see anything.
  44. Michael HORNET
    Michael HORNET 10 June 2016 12: 01
    +1
    Strangely enough, but
    1. With a single fire, you can hit a much larger number of targets per unit of time. When the task is to hit targets in the minimum amount of time, as if understanding that the faster you hit, the less time the enemy has to shoot at you, so for some reason all employees of the security forces completely voluntarily transfer their machine guns to single fire
    2. The AK-47 / AKM "made its way" into the army has been successfully fighting since the 50s and is fighting EVERYWHERE
    And yes, a single fire mode is much more effective for him, so this is the most effective mode, when you consciously direct each bullet at the target, rather than thrashing in that direction in the hope of hooking, wasting time and ammo, and unmasking yourself, which means reducing their chances to survive
    In recent conflicts, we see that even the most stupid AKM operators switched to a single fire mode as the main

    The 7,62x39 long barrel is 520-555-590 mm trunks - taking into account the fact that such trunks are also thicker than the standard AKM barrel, this provides a generally better and more stable battle at 250-450 m
    1. overb
      overb 10 June 2016 14: 41
      +3
      Quote: Michael HORNET
      A single fire can hit a much larger number of targets per unit of time.

      It is a pity that the boys from around the world, having seen enough of the results in Vietnam, came to a different conclusion.
      Quote: Michael HORNET
      AK-47 / AKM "made its way" into the army has been successfully fighting since the 50s and is fighting EVERYWHERE

      He is fighting. In those countries where there is no problem with the birth rate. In addition, he got them mostly for free, for assurances of eternal friendship. Therefore, it is at war.
      Quote: Michael HORNET
      We see that even the most stupid AKM operators switched to a single fire mode as the main

      The only trouble is that he has a power depot of about 300 m. And nothing can be done with this, such a cartridge. But it is necessary, if you conduct a single fire, at least 400 m. Therefore, they turned him out of the army (even from the Soviet one).
      Quote: Michael HORNET
      The 7,62x39 long barrel is 520-555-590 mm trunks - taking into account the fact that such trunks are also thicker than the standard AKM barrel, this provides a generally better and more stable battle at 250-450 m

      RPK, this is even more nonsense than the AK-47 / AK / AKM. Not only is the cartridge low-power. So you won’t get anywhere from this wagtail, the recoil momentum is 7,4 kgm / s. No, a big impulse for a machine gun is not a very big problem, for them this is a normal phenomenon. But what about DEP?
      RPK-74 looks better. And the recoil momentum is noticeably less (4,81 kgm / s) than that of the RPK, and DEP is noticeably greater. Not the norm, of course, but the apparatus is almost nothing. Strong such LMG minus. With good claims on the lower segment of the real LMG. Something borderline.
      1. tracer
        tracer 11 June 2016 14: 40
        0
        Well, here's a good comment on everything on the case. A deadly argument of "specialists" that "Kalash breaks the rail .... along" people who understand and are not perceived.
      2. Samuel Marshak
        Samuel Marshak 16 June 2016 05: 44
        0
        5 kopecks in favor of RPK-74. For me it’s such a very successful device for its tasks. Only if he is in the hands of a machine gunner, and not a machine gunner, which type I want to RPK - his trunk is longer
    2. The comment was deleted.
  45. the same doctor
    the same doctor 11 June 2016 08: 57
    +3
    It’s necessary to work on improving personal weapons, but ... Soon a pack of military robots and a tablet will become the infantry’s personal weapon. So the machine gun will only have the role of a means of self-defense, like a pistol, or even an officer’s checker. Well, the refinement of the existing small arms is quite possible, but the proposed approaches improve it only by percent. At times, its characteristics for the transition period to combat robots can be improved, but in a completely different way than what is considered in the article. How to convey an idea without declassifying it!
    1. tracer
      tracer 11 June 2016 14: 35
      +1
      You breathe out there at least sometimes. Weeds to smoke before writing a comment "GREEN IS NOT POSITIVE." I haven't laughed like that for a long time .... I just ask fraternally .. Write to burn ... comment on something else on this topic.
  46. Michael HORNET
    Michael HORNET 12 June 2016 09: 00
    0
    Shooting a queue in that direction leads to nothing but the consumption of cartridges of the order of 50 thousand per 1 killed
    It is clear that the figures will include the loss of all cartridges for various reasons, but the fact is the fact
    Exceeding the level of shooting training (even the most basic course), installing optics and switching to a single fire sharply increase the effectiveness of fire, and at distances of up to 400 m from 5.45x39, 500 m from weapons under 7,62x39 (7,62x39 is just a highly qualified shooter for taking into account the bullet’s fall and making amendments to the scope) and up to 800 out of 6,5 Grendel (requirements for the shooter are also high, of course
    At 300-350 m in general, an experienced shooter confidently hits a target with a diameter of 30 cm from caliber 5.45, 223, 7,62x39
    1. verboo
      verboo 13 June 2016 17: 25
      +1
      Quote: Michael HORNET
      and up to 800 out of 6,5 Grendel (requirements for the shooter are also high, of course

      For me personally, "promising Grendal for the army" serves as an indicator. If the author writes about this, then he is not in the shooters.
      It concerns you, a young man. Primarily.
      Here is a small educational program for you.
      Barrett 6,8 mm, which, as it were for special operations, despite the fact that it looks very much like a central heating battery with a barrel, removes stray heat from the original 2250 J. No, they started from 2450 J. But they calmed down, it seems, at 2250 J. This is physics, no arguing against it.
      If we attach the same 2250 J to the Grendel cartridge with a Scenar bullet (7,97 g), then it is easy to see that you can’t get more than 750 m / s n / s on an ordinary barrel (or you need to do not SMG, i.e. not automatic, in Soviet terms). Against all the same physics.
      Farther. If you shoot with Scenar bullets with n / s 750 m / s, then the DEP will be about 215-220 m. No, you can attach optics and bullet at least into space. But IT will work effectively at a range of 215-220 m. Why does IT need this? Yes, and with optics?
      Let’s go on the other hand, we will dance from a normal DEP (400 m for a single fire). Estimatedly, to obtain such a DEP, you will need n / s Scenar bullets (7,97g) 856 m / s. In this case, on the trunk of the order of 406 mm machine (SMG) you do not get. And you get automatic weapons category AR.
      Have you heard that the Americans are very unhappy and are going to part with the M4A1? So they are unhappy with its density of fire, and this is also an AR category weapon, not an SMG (sometimes they write FAR). Do you understand the whole "prospect" of the Grandal cartridge for the army? And after all, this is still the DEP 400 m, which is typical for army automatic rifles minus. To get a full-fledged army automatic rifle, you will have to increase the s / s bullets and reduce the density of fire. As a result, your weapon can easily fall into the next category, SFW (hello, grandfather AKM). However, there is a simple solution, you just need to lengthen the barrel. This will allow increasing the DEP to an acceptable level without rolling out of the AR category. But weapons of the AR category, as we found out above, are completely unsuitable for a modern army.
      And in the end the most interesting. Today in Russia there are contests for balanced automatic weapons. The impulse of the 5.45-mm cartridge is balanced on the 415 mm 4,60 kgm / s barrel. With varying success, as I understand it. The recoil momentum of your Grendel, even at 750 m / s with a ridiculous DEP of 215-220 m, will be 7.50 kgm / s. Those. Already it cannot be balanced for automatic fire in any way. Therefore, self-loading or SFW weapons for the army on the cartridge Grendal can be done. But according to the TTX COMPLEX, I do not see any advantages over the old AKM, although they will certainly be in certain positions, as will serious failures in other positions. Why then fence the garden? Change bad to very bad?
      And even more so, it’s completely ridiculous to compare THIS with weapons on a 5,45-mm cartridge. And to call for the replacement of even the old AK-74 with something on the cartridge Grendal. They are doing everything right now, trying to make a balanced automatic weapon under a standard cartridge. I would still somewhere in the trunk, see 9-10 lengthened and in this form would have balanced.
  47. Samuel Marshak
    Samuel Marshak 16 June 2016 05: 34
    0
    Comrades! We have been serving in the army for a year. Two training periods! It’s good if, under the demobilization, they themselves are able to bring the machine to a normal battle. What is needed: Dramatically improve the quality of workmanship (in the field it is no longer so reliable). Side bar for attaching night optics, the ability to mount a tactical flashlight (in the city, a street - a basement, in the daytime is urgently needed). .It's all! Promising developments are very necessary for professionals and the development of the arms industry)
  48. Monroz
    Monroz 22 June 2016 14: 29
    0
    Hello, I read the article Promising machine for the army of Alexander Berezin and was surprised the author did not indicate the promising machine AK107, AK108, AK109. This is ignorance or they wanted the best, but it turned out as always. I myself argue that the near future, without a caseless machine gun, he will give us a little delay in the design of new weapons on different physical principles.
  49. Kozliu
    Kozliu 7 July 2016 22: 53
    0
    All that is being offered is not worth adopting. The proposed samples have no significant advantages.
  50. Michael HORNET
    Michael HORNET 8 July 2016 13: 43
    0
    Alas, neither AK107 nor AK108 nor AK109 are promising)
    They will remain lateral dead ends.
    Now the KK is already promoting the AK400, it seems that even the AK12 did not work for them, although the AK400 is closer to the basic design than the AK12