Military Review

Once again to the question about the Remington rifle with a butterfly valve (part 2).

46
I found my second Russian rifle in the first special forces museum in Okinawa. And again she had an unusually short stem, a feature that I first took for a modification. This rifle was in even worse condition. However, the caliber markings were clear, as well as the Remington address and the date 22 of October 1901 g. The patent marking was also partially visible. The tooth of the cock was shortened, the bed was repaired, and on the bed and neck of the butt there were stamps in Chinese, Cyrillic and Vietnamese.



Remington M1897 rifle advertisement

Several years ago, in Gardona, in Italy, several hundreds or more of the percussion mechanisms of the Remington 1902 rifle were found. According to a number of European collectors who bought some of them, this was what was left of the Spanish Civil War and that all of them were sold to an unknown person in Italy around 1958, where they were kept until recently.

If it is leftovers weapons since the Spanish Civil War, they were almost certainly once part of the Remington M1902 rifles sold to Russia, and they were part of a large batch of weapons that Stalin sent in support of Spanish Republicans. Stalin cleared the Russian arsenals, first sending outdated and then modern small arms of various types.

These rotary-bolt rifles were probably part of the first batch of weapons that the Compesh ship took out of the port in Crimea on September 26 and delivered 4 October 1936 to Spain. This cargo is listed as 23350 “Old rifles” .

In August 1938, the victorious Spanish nationalists staged an exhibition of weapons and equipment seized from Republicans. The catalog of this exhibition includes a list of the types of captured small arms and the very first entry in the list is “Fuzeya ... Remington Weapon Factory ..., М1887 (original) ... 7.62 ... Russia”. Except that the model year is not quite correct and for some reason it was strangely called a five-charge model, this is probably the Russian rifle with a butterfly valve. Since the compilers of the catalog knew Russian rifles and rotary-bolt rifles well, the “M1887” is most likely a typo, and the five-charge is just a mistake or the result of some kind of confusion. Or ... the phrase "five-charge" may refer to an experimental adaptation, which will be discussed further, and about which we essentially know nothing.

The photos in the hands of soldiers participating in the Spanish Civil War on both sides show rifles of all models and calibers. But how many of the 2981 rifle rifles were sent to Spain cannot be determined, and why the Remington rifle impact mechanisms found in Gardon remained in the storehouse for so long is also hard to say. Two whole rifles, which I considered in 1971, indicate that not all Russian rifles were sent to Spain, that some of them may still be in circulation.

It was only in 2004 that I was finally able to purchase a Remington rifle with a Russian-caliber 7.62x54mm bolt made for Tsarist Russia; her picture is given in this book.

In 2002, Alex Aksenov, an exporter of Russian weapons and antiques, approached me. He found out about me from my first book on the Remington rifles with a butterfly valve and asked if I was still collecting them. Having received the answer that I am always interested in them and constantly looking for something that I may not have, he told me about a rifle, which I had not hoped to find, M1902, the 88 serial number adapted for the Russian cartridge 7.62X54mm. ** I sent the letter by express mail with my postal and e-mail address, work and home phone, marked ASAP (as soon as possible), because I didn’t want to lose this find. It took me two years to settle all the difficulties, solve customs formalities and withdraw it from the Russian Federal Republic through Canada to the USA.


The fastening axis of the shutter was very simple.

How this rifle returned to its country of origin is another example of how important it is to be “in the right place at the right time.”

This rifle began its journey to return to the West only because the irreconcilable members of the Communist Party refused to leave the parliament building. In 1991, the Russian army was ordered to knock out former Politburo members entrenched in this building. Artillery (so in the text - approx. Authors) fired at this building before starting its assault. Two shells altogether passed by and both hit the building of the former Moscow Military Research Center. This center was founded in 1935 and military equipment was put up for research and use by the military. Only in 1986 was it open to the public and became a museum. The exhibits included all types of military equipment, such as sabers, muskets, rifles and saddles, from the war with Napoleon to the Soviet period of the Second World War. The firearm exposition included five Remington rifles with a butterfly valve, which were called musketones. Artillery shells damaged the building of this military research center, it was not guarded, and it was possible to enter it. It took the Moscow police and the military about 4 days to finally remove all curious citizens from there and ensure his protection. However, more 1000 rifles, pistols, rare prototypes, drawings, many historically valuable military and civilian artifacts evaporated without a trace, then to appear on the thriving Moscow black market. Alex also told me that many other rare rifles, such as the Winchester 1866 and 1895 models and muskets in good condition, disappeared from this center along with the Remington musket 1902 models.


Full disassembly of the Remington bolt.

While the location of the other four rifles with a serial number 88 remains unknown. Having an almost photographic memory, Alex was able to remember, and later jot down a significant part of the information from the cards that remained at the exhibition long after the center building was looted, but he did not dare to ask whether they could be copied, although he himself This robbery did not participate.

On the research center card, these rifles were called the “Remington Special Rifle 97 Special” and it was noted that most of them are equipped with “Maxim 3-S silencer”. Maxim's silencer invented Hiram Percy Maxim, son of Sir Hiram Maxim, inventor of the famous machine gun. It was patented in 1909. The 3-S was designed for high-power rifles and was offered to the civilian market around 1910. The marking on the tail of the receiver also changed around 1911 g, so they were made or 1910- 1911g., Or silencers on them were already installed in Russia. The card also noted that less than 1000 rifles have signs that they had a combination of "accelerated charging clip and rear sight on the receiver." Whether this was done in Russia or by the Remington company itself, or, perhaps, as a subcontractor, is also unknown, although I think that if this were done in the USA, there would have been some notes, a patent, or memories of this. Alex told me that the idea of ​​combining a rear sight on a sniper-type receiver and charging accelerator was abandoned around 1911-1912, and the 981 rifle with such a device was restored to its original state. They just plugged additional holes for the screws. These clogged holes are located on the upper left and right side of the case, at the top of the shutter and on the tail. Since I have never seen any such device, I have no idea how it looked and how it worked, but since the rotary-bolt rifle is a single-shot rifle, it’s interesting to know if it could have included a simple cartridge lock, something like Metcaph prefixes, which were tested on a Springfield rifle with a hinged bolt.

The barrel was shortened and the ramrod removed to make room for the muffler. Alex noted that my rifle was received complete with a Maxim silencer placed on it. The card in the exhibition of these five rifles mentioned their use during the First World War, but nothing was reported about their current location. All five rifles on display were completely finished “in white”, but it is unknown if the whole batch of 2981 rifles was with the same finish. European museums, notorious for their habit of giving the outer gloss to everything, so the fact that rifles look so great does not prove anything. Alex recorded the serial numbers of the four missing rifles from those cards that remained on display. These are 116, 1467, 1673 and 2504. The 88 and 116 numbers are the only two numbers that indicate this mysterious alteration. No one knows if any of these devices of the rear sight / accelerated charging have been preserved, and Alex made it clear that further questioning would be undesirable.
(Note of the authors: in the photo on p. 69 in the book “Firearms” Shokarev Yu.V., Plotnikova S.Е., and EM Dragunov, you can see the image of the Remington carbine with such an accelerator.)

* For obvious reasons, this is a fictitious name.
** This is the Russian serial number. Rifle rifles never had them.

Shurupova Irina Vladimirovna



Remington Russian rifle with rotary shutter M1902. Its distinctive feature is an unusually short barrel on which Maxim's muffler can be mounted. Maxim C-3 should be screwed onto the barrel, but in this case a friction fitting, reinforced with a rod, which is installed in the ramrod channel, was used. The rifle has the 88 serial number adopted in Russia and a stamp consisting of the number and letters of the Russian alphabet (Cyrillic). From the 2981 rifles purchased by Russia, the 981 was modified and equipped with a rear sight and a device for accelerated charging. I can not imagine what it looks like, but on the receiver and tail there are holes for screws that shut up when this device is removed. On the upper part of the barrel, approximately three inches in front of the trigger hook, is marked “CAL 7.62R”. (Author's collection. Photo - Rick Panderson)

Text from the George Lauman Collection Card:
"REMINGTON
Model 1897 / 02 Russian "Musketon". Special order 273 A.
7.62х54mm Russian early 1902 model of the year (developed before Remington / UMC tail marking, but includes the extractor Daise).
Note: marking “CAL .7.62K” on the barrel. The 88 serial number is stamped behind the trigger across the tail of the receiver, on the lower part of the tail, on the guard across the upper part, on the lower front part of the butt and on the lower part of the forearm. The Cyrillic “order” (contract) marking is easily distinguishable, as are other markings, such as MV, which means Moscow Military, short for Moscow Research Center. The emblem with the Soviet star, sickle and hammer, and on top of the letter MV is the designation of the owner. "

Note: this text, as you can see, is very indicative in all respects. Firstly, this is information from a serious source. Secondly, a clear example that our propaganda does not always inform us about the "intrigues" of our overseas partners in an appropriate manner and often writes much more than what actually is. This is also information about how and where our historical artifacts and attitudes towards Russia and its history by people like George Lauman. All this is very interesting and revealing. In addition, we found out that the role of Gorlov and Gunius in the story with the Berdan rifle was directly opposite to what Soviet historiography attributed to them! Accordingly, the “bad” tsarist minister and “satrap” Milyutin turned out to be the very person who opened the way for the “berdanka” in Russia, and, as a result, our famous “three-ruler,” that is, he acted as a smart, stateful and responsible husband!
Author:
46 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. qwert
    qwert 5 May 2016 06: 57
    +3
    All this is very interesting and revealing. In addition, we found out that the role of Gorlov and Gunius in the story with the Berdan rifle was directly opposite to what Soviet historiography attributed to them!
    Well, there’s another question who should be trusted. Soviet sources or Anglo-Saxons there are different ....
    1. kalibr
      5 May 2016 07: 19
      +1
      So it’s easy to check. It is enough to see what Minister Milyutin wrote about remington and berdan and their correspondence in the archive and ... that's it!
      1. AK64
        AK64 5 May 2016 10: 31
        0
        Sorry, nowhere in the text did I find about "the role of Gorlov and Gunius in the story with the screws of Berdan"

        What is wrong with them?

        Well, the fact that the tsarist ministers needed only to be blamed, no options
      2. AK64
        AK64 5 May 2016 10: 31
        0
        Sorry, nowhere in the text did I find about "the role of Gorlov and Gunius in the story with the screws of Berdan"

        What is wrong with them?

        Well, the fact that the tsarist ministers needed only to be blamed, no options
    2. Amurets
      Amurets 5 May 2016 07: 41
      +2
      Quote: qwert
      Well, there’s another question who should be trusted. Soviet sources or Anglo-Saxons there are different ....

      I wrote to you in a personal personal opinion for you. But in general, no such expert on Russian edged weapons Fedorov.V.G .; Zhuk.A.B.; Blagonravov; Bolotin; Ba
      rsukov. Well, nowhere is there any mention that a Remington rifle was ordered for the Russian imperial army. There were rifles in the Russian army, under a Russian cartridge, of foreign manufacture. Including Remington, but all the rifles were Mosin systems. I give links.
      http://ww1.milua.org/mosinchar.htm
      http://www.proza.ru/2013/01/06/839
      PSAll foreign rifles were ordered during World War I. Before the Russo-Japanese War, in the Russian army of foreign rifles was only a Mosin rifle manufactured by Nagan. Belgium.
  2. Forever so
    Forever so 5 May 2016 09: 35
    +1
    I just couldn’t understand what kind of rotary lock, thanks, they threw the drawing. I did not meet such engineering idiocy. I wonder how many shots this constipation broke off and the liner flew into the eye ?? All the same, the chamber is not a pistol, but a free-standing emphasis, it's something.
    1. AK64
      AK64 5 May 2016 10: 27
      +1
      All the same, the chamber is not a pistol, but a free-standing emphasis, it's something.

      Why "free-hanging"? The bolt block rests against the trigger body.

      Another thing is what happens at the time of the shot (locked with a moving trigger).
      1. Denimax
        Denimax 5 May 2016 20: 12
        0
        Quote: AK64
        Another thing is what happens at the time of the shot (locked with a moving trigger).

        Of course tricky. Just no chance for grocery shopping.
        1. AK64
          AK64 6 May 2016 07: 48
          0
          Of course tricky. Just no chance for grocery shopping.
          As with most other single-lock lock systems: such as the extremely popular flip locks, the extremely popular fracture today, and even the best (in my opinion) single-charge Martini-Henry system

          "A chance for store food" was given only by the bolt
    2. Berg194500
      Berg194500 5 May 2016 19: 32
      0
      so remade rifles loading from the muzzle or like Wendl’s carbine with a bolt lock, there is also a redone Berdan, Sneijder or Krink rifle. in my-look-beetle-encyclopedia rifles and assault rifles. This is not engineering idiocy, as you say, it was those designers who we owe modern weapons
      1. AK64
        AK64 6 May 2016 07: 55
        0
        so remade guns loaded from the muzzle

        Sorry, but there were no redistributable remintons.

        This is not engineering idiocy, as you say, it was those designers who we owe modern weapons

        IMHO, the reason for such a castle was patent law: when everything is already patented then you have to invent it.
        In an engineering sense, the spinning castle of Remington is witty. But its practicality ... The lock is locked at the time of the shot. This is very bad: the shot starts with a virtually unlocked lock. This requires high accuracy of the contacting surfaces (and, therefore, the price is higher). In addition, getting there, between these surfaces, dirt will lead to failures
    3. The comment was deleted.
  3. AK64
    AK64 5 May 2016 10: 36
    +2
    Several years ago, in Gardona, in Italy, several hundreds or more of the percussion mechanisms of the Remington 1902 rifle were found. According to a number of European collectors who bought some of them, this was what was left of the Spanish Civil War and that all of them were sold to an unknown person in Italy around 1958, where they were kept until recently.
    If these are the remains of weapons from the Spanish Civil War, then they almost certainly were once part of the Remington M1902 rifles sold to Russia, and they were part of a large batch of weapons that Stalin sent to support the Spanish Republicans.

    In Italy, found castles.
    Someone for some reason decided that these locks are from weapons from Spain. Why?
    But this is not enough: since the locks are from Spain, it means "Stalin put". Well, really, where else can Remington come from in Spain besides Stalin?

    But is it nothing that the Spaniards were armed with in the 19th century?

    And why did Russia need ringtones in 1902? It was at this time that they did not know where to put a huge number of berdanas.
    1. kalibr
      5 May 2016 11: 10
      0
      This is all about how many absurdities and mysteries there are in history. Unverified assertions. Explicit conjectures. Lies. Fantasy. Everything must be checked with documents! I think the "Fiium incident" was a good example. But it is not always possible to find documents in this way, and it is an expensive pleasure. Maybe someone who has read this will be interested and, being in Moscow, will dot the And by turning to the archives?
    2. Amurets
      Amurets 5 May 2016 11: 16
      0
      Quote: AK64
      But this is not enough: since the locks are from Spain, it means "Stalin put". Well, really, where else can Remington come from in Spain besides Stalin?

      Can you tell me: where in Tsarist Russia, and then in the USSR was Remington's factory? Where was Madsen's factory, I know. I did not find the Remington factory.
    3. kalibr
      5 May 2016 11: 33
      0
      You forgot, in Spain they were of a different caliber. And then 7,62 and under the Russian cartridge!
      1. AK64
        AK64 5 May 2016 12: 17
        0
        not a word is said about the marking

        Further, the traces of supplies should not be found in landfills, but in Remington's documents: there were no civil wars and revolutions in the USA, and the archives of a hundred years ago were not a commercial secret for a long time.
  4. brn521
    brn521 5 May 2016 13: 00
    +1
    A batch of single-shot rifles adapted to mount a Maxim silencer? Well, this is a hunting weapon. And the size of the party is small - a couple of thousand in all. In the Russian zone of influence, there were no such placers of ammunition available as in the United States, so an attempt to sell unremarkable weapons there under an unreported and expensive US caliber would be stupid. So during WWI we really could get a batch of civilian guns, since they are adapted to our cartridge. At such a time, any weapon is appreciated. For example, our enemies collected and put into service our berdanks. A full-fledged weapon is needed at the front, and a captured trooper with a handful of ammunition is enough for the warden to not be unarmed in case of a sudden attack by the enemy cavalry.
    Again, the beginning of this part of the article: "There were stamps in Chinese, Cyrillic and Vietnamese on the stock and neck of the butt." This is not necessary if the weapon was made to order for the military. And for a hunting weapon it is quite typical.
    1. kalibr
      5 May 2016 13: 34
      0
      Here I pass. I can not comment on anything. Gave material as a sample. Somewhere there are links to the archive, somewhere the author's personal impressions. Personal impressions can be very reliable, maybe not very. But since the story is made up of little things, there are those who love to dig into them. Once published, "little things" grow in volume. Or they don't grow - it depends on the author's presentation and a number of circumstances, first of all, the mentality of society. In my opinion, this material is the best confirmation of this.
      1. brn521
        brn521 5 May 2016 17: 14
        +1
        Just nothing is known about the military use of Maxim's silencers. This project was raised commercially primarily as a hunting device. There are examples of advertising posters on which not very successful weapons, for example self-loading Winchester in 1905, are trying to sell complete with a silencer Maxim.
  5. bbss
    bbss 5 May 2016 14: 37
    +2
    And which members of the Politburo were beaten out with artillery in 1991? And a few shells passed by! Epic and just as stupid ... As a result, complete lies.
    1. kalibr
      5 May 2016 15: 07
      +4
      Yes, this is an interesting moment, typical for Western historical literature: they do not pay much attention to other people's "little things." And this does not bother anyone, because the author's goal is not to tell about this. That is why it is quite difficult to work with Western literature, it is necessary to separate the wheat from the chaff! Their research lacks academicism. Ours sometimes have more than we need, so it's hard to read. But usually all the facts are verified. This is precisely why, for example, I do not like Stephen Turnbull's books about samurai. The picture under it is captioned - "Samurai with a sword. Antique miniature". And I myself see that he is a samurai, that with a sword, but ... who is the author, when he lived, when he wrote, where and in what museum is this exhibited? This is not! And this greatly devalues ​​his work. And there are a lot of them!
      1. AK64
        AK64 5 May 2016 15: 20
        0
        I, for example, do not like Stephen Turnbull's books about samurai. The picture under it is captioned - "Samurai with a sword. Antique miniature". And I myself see that he is a samurai, that with a sword, but ... who is the author, when he lived, when he wrote, where and in what museum is this exhibited?


        Hehe ...

        As a stern gaijin, which has gratefully lost health and curls in Japan, I declare: there is no history deeper than the 18th century in Japan.
        The Portuguese discovered them, and supposedly opened them in the 16th century --- and only with this discovery and contacts does Japanese history begin.

        There are no antiquities in Japan at all: everything is a remake. The oldest dates from the end of the 19th century. Archaeologists have absolutely nothing to catch there - it's empty!

        And all that they supposedly have - supposedly literature and stuff - everything was invented in the 19th century, according to European models.
        1. kalibr
          5 May 2016 16: 42
          0
          Are the khans also a remake and kofuns? There are several thousand of them ... And those that were excavated contained both bronze and copper, and ... a lot of things. Pre-Portuguese ...
          1. AK64
            AK64 5 May 2016 17: 16
            0
            Are the khans also a remake and kofuns?


            And what can they prove or, conversely, refute? That people lived, and nothing more.
            More precisely, that people were dying, and nothing more.

            Well, for example, Stoneheidge stands - and so what? There is an artifact - there is no history.

            No one doubts that people lived - but where is culture and history? And people lived everywhere. All Japanese history hangs in the air, and nothing but a strong desire is not confirmed. (And the desire of the Japanese is strong: you will talk with others, from those who are from the street - so they are older than the entire planet.)
            1. kalibr
              5 May 2016 17: 41
              0
              Quote: AK64
              you’ll talk to others, from those who are from the street - so they are older than the entire planet

              So it is with us as well. no need to go outside. He sat down, read other articles and everything - we are all descendants of the Hyperboreans!
              No story? Archaeologists have nothing to catch? But they find a lot. Exhibitions at the Tokyo National Museum are held regularly. So these findings are material culture + annals = history! What else is needed? Or are they all a remake too? I remember this question has already been raised here. But the question is, who raised it, yes. I really respect the opinion of specialists, and you also do not respect the opinion of non-specialists in your subject! Although there is a sin - mine seems more accessible. But only it seems.
              1. AK64
                AK64 5 May 2016 17: 55
                0
                So it is with us as well. no need to go outside. He sat down, read other articles and everything - we are all descendants of the Hyperboreans!

                They have these nonsense at school "pass"

                No story? So these findings are history + annals! What else is needed?

                So there are no chronicles among the Japanese. That is, more or less reliable chronicles, with the established and verified date of acquisition, are not present. And with attribution either. And with the desire to add antiquities to themselves, they could have done anything in the 19 century.

                Japanese "medieval poets" - guaranteed made , according to the European (not even Chinese or Korean) pattern.

                In general, we, gaijins, do not believe the Japanese: as the American schoolgirl put it: "they lie, they know that we know that they are lying, and nevertheless they continue to lie!" - she is about her Japanese classmates in the 10th grade, and about her teachers too. (Something brought her to that Japan, and one. Some idiotic "exchange".)

                Everything that is "ancient" in Japan is frankly post-Portuguese.
                The feeling is that in the 16th century, Japan was a sparsely populated outskirts of the Sino-Korean area, on the border with the area of ​​Polynysian. (Southern Japanese are much more Polynesians than Asians).

                Well, there were some people, some gangs (samurai) probably were.
                Japanese "castles" are anecdote: two-three-storey thatched houses on a hill. And they had such "palaces"
                1. Verdun
                  Verdun 5 May 2016 18: 11
                  0
                  No one doubts that people lived - but where is culture and history?
                  History is changeable. It may turn out so that in five hundred years no one will remember some strange people who lived from the Baltic to the Urals ...
                  Japanese "castles" are anecdote: two or three storey thatched houses on a hill
                  Do you think that under the pressure of constant earthquakes and tsunamis the Moscow Kremlin would stand for many centuries? The culture and architecture of Japan and a large part of China are directly related to the destructive forces of nature. For those who live on the relatively calm Central Russian Upland, it is quite difficult to understand.
                  1. AK64
                    AK64 5 May 2016 19: 22
                    0
                    History is changeable.

                    History is a humanities science and studies written sources. Primarily.
                    Well, in the absence of these - other artifacts. But only in the context of ... all the same written sources.

                    "No history" does not mean no events. And it means simply "there are no written sources."

                    Do you think that under the pressure of constant earthquakes and tsunamis the Moscow Kremlin would stand for many centuries? The culture and architecture of Japan and a large part of China are directly related to the destructive forces of nature. For those who live on the relatively calm Central Russian Upland, it is quite difficult to understand.

                    The chopped house will stand in the earthquake zone as much as you like. In Alma-Ata there was a Russian wooden cathedral - absolutely resistant to shaking.
                    The castle is actually primarily a fortification. Well, what is the strengthening of a straw house on a hill? Piglets even understood this from a fairy tale.

                    In general, you see, all this needs to be seen --- words are hard to convey.
                    And then you also need to take into account that what you see is a remake. (Which is supposedly "in place" and "according to the pattern" - but since no one has seen this "pattern", then ... you yourself understand)

                    Megalithic buildings (like the same Stonehenge) in Europe - like dirt. But what's the point?
                    1. Verdun
                      Verdun 5 May 2016 19: 39
                      +1
                      And then you also need to take into account that what you see is a remake.
                      Somehow I’m not sure that, say, the White Heron castle is a remake. Rebuilt? Yes it is possible. But most European castles also changed and rebuilt. As for wooden buildings, Kizhi or the Museum of Wooden Architecture in Myshkin are unique things. And the age of such buildings rarely exceeds five hundred years. And given the enthusiasm with which mankind destroys its own achievements in the course of various wars (take the same Islamists for example), it is not surprising that a hundred were lost and there is no one to tell why Stonehenge was built.
                      1. AK64
                        AK64 6 May 2016 08: 18
                        0
                        Somehow I’m not sure that, say, the White Heron castle is a remake.

                        To be sure of something or unsure - you need to look with your own eyes and poke a finger. Then confidence or uncertainty is justified. And judging by the pictures ....

                        But about this "White Heron": it is even officially dated only to the beginning of the 17th century. Well, maybe. Maybe I say that something there in the 17th century it was: everything after the Portuguese is more or less verifiable. But exactly something, but not at all what is shown on the picture.

                        But look at this castle: its military value is 0.0. No more than a salty house on a hill. Is that how the fortifications are made? Someone - the Chinese, Koreans, not to mention the Europeans - is building such "fortifications"?

                        All the fame of the White Heron is "lace" and "kandebobers". What value could these laces and kandebobers have for defense?
                        I remind you that castles are being built for defense. So tell me about the defense value of the White Heron, and everything on it is the circle makers.

                        The White Heron is like when a prostitute in circles makes herself a cool fighter.
                        Compare this with the functionality of the Russian Siberian wooden fortresses: that's where the "locks" were, cheap and functional! (And none of them survived.)

                        Rebuilt? Yes it is possible. But most European castles also changed and rebuilt.

                        Oh really? And to prove?
                        In addition, there is a form for any European castle: it was built by such and such, such and such an architect; rebuilt then and that. And everything is pretty well documented.

                        In addition, from what you can see in Europe --- this is mostly ... the 16th century. Yes, the 16th century. And look at the condition - stone, 16th century, and the condition is very poor.
                        And here we are told about straw houses from the 9th - 10th. Oh well...

                        (To immediately stop the nascent protests about the 16th century: I said - great part. Of course, there are not just older, but also antique ones: Tarragona, where the Carthaginian megaliths first, Roman concrete on them, and much more on top, as a well-known and accessible example for tourists.)


                        As for wooden buildings, Kizhi or the Museum of Wooden Architecture in Myshkin are unique things. And the age of such buildings rarely exceeds five hundred years. And given the enthusiasm with which mankind destroys its own achievements in the course of various wars (take the same Islamists for example), it is not surprising that a hundred were lost and there is no one to tell why Stonehenge was built.

                        Not interested.
                        And the topic does not apply.
                        Fact is fact: everything that the Japanese pass off as "Middle Ages" is a remake. And none of your excuses can be found: this is a remake and Japan has no "history" deeper than the end of the 16th century. (And the one that is written by the Portuguese - that is, it is essentially a part of Portuguese history.)

                        By way of example: even Japanese is relatively recent and ... artificial. with a strong influence, not even Chinese or Korean, as one might expect, but .... Portuguese (!!!)

                        And I already realized that half of you are in the hot: the template is cracking. Well, just accept how experienced opinion gygina.
                      2. brn521
                        brn521 6 May 2016 10: 04
                        0
                        Quote: AK64
                        I remind you that castles are being built for defense.

                        In Europe, after the appearance of artillery, castles in the usual sense of the word quickly lost their significance as fortresses. Now so began to be called the residence of large landowners. Which of the defensive structures are left except for hedges. And the main defensive force was not the walls, but the premises with security. At the same time, such a landowner could have in possession a real castle, as a rule, abandoned or dilapidated. But such fortifications were of no interest either in terms of defense or in the quality of housing. Often they were completely disassembled into building materials, after them there were no traces left.
                        What is worse than the Japanese?
                      3. AK64
                        AK64 6 May 2016 10: 34
                        0
                        In Europe, after the appearance of artillery, castles in the usual sense of the word quickly lost their significance as fortresses. Now so began to be called the residence of large landowners. Which of the defensive structures are left except for hedges. And the main defensive force was not the walls, but the premises with security. At the same time, such a landowner could have in possession a real castle, as a rule, abandoned or dilapidated. But such fortifications were of no interest either in terms of defense or in the quality of housing. Often they were completely disassembled into building materials, after them there were no traces left.
                        What is worse than the Japanese?

                        / yawning /
                        oh, these connoisseurs and disputants for me ... If he sees another one letter, incorrectly (in his opinion) written, and throws himself into a dispute: "It's not that way to write this letter!"

                        When you say artillery there invented?
                        So: how do you wake up another time in Ireland, yes, in Ireland - so rent a car and go to the wilderness, into the wild. To the west is best. There are places where, from one point, three castles --- absolutely classical stone dungeons --- are visible. Built in the late 16th - early 17th century. Burned in the war of 1919-21.

                        You go, look, and tell them these tales.

                        PS: well, back to Japan: where in Japan is there at least one normal defensive structure? All that is called "castles" is Disneyland, the same "White Heron": defensive potential 0.0.

                        And what conclusion follows from this, by the way?

                        ZZY: I would, by the way, also recommend and get acquainted with the "life" of Japanese peasants in the 16th century at least: this is ... anecdote, but anecdote that says a lot about Japanese "history".
            2. kalibr
              5 May 2016 21: 36
              0
              Quote: AK64
              So there are no chronicles among the Japanese. That is, more or less reliable chronicles, with the established and verified date of acquisition, are not present. And with attribution either. And with the desire to add antiquities to themselves, they could have done anything in the 19 century.

              You know Andrei, it is not enough to live in Japan and do there ... well, what did you do to judge Japanese history, and in general to judge history. Maybe we have enough bakers-doctors and "enthusiastic" people? If K. Nosov or S. Terbull had told me about this, I might have believed, but I will not even listen to you, like a schoolgirl from the States. Well, you and she are not authorities in history, as I am not an authority in physics or biology. Let's everyone do their own thing!
              1. Verdun
                Verdun 5 May 2016 23: 08
                -1
                So there are no chronicles among the Japanese. That is, more or less reliable chronicles, with the established and verified date of acquisition, are not present.
                After the disappearance of the library of Ivan the Terrible, the entire official history of Russia is essentially based on one single written document - "Chronicle of Bygone Years" - in different editions and interpretations. Remove this source, and then what? In my opinion, written documents are generally not a very reliable source of information. Especially considering how often winners write history. Archeology, with its physical evidence, is more credible.
                1. AK64
                  AK64 6 May 2016 09: 02
                  0
                  After the disappearance of the library of Ivan the Terrible, the entire official history of Russia is essentially based on one single written document - "Chronicle of Bygone Years" - in different editions and interpretations.

                  That's not true.
                  It should start with the fact that pre-Mongol history is completely interwoven with the pan-European one: in European sources, and even in the Middle East, traces can be found.
                  SPI (The Word of Igor's Campaign) was found in the 18th century. On the authenticity of the Word argued for a long time (and still argue), but there are too many arguments for the authenticity of SPI.
                  Finally, pre-Mongol history is confirmed by archeology. Finds are by no means few.
                  (Even if you throw out the Novgorod birch bark letters as extremely unreliable in reliability).

                  But at the same time, and you are absolutely right here, the pre-Mongol history is "like a fog": for example, even the organizational structure of pre-Mongol Russia is completely incomprehensible. (The absence of such a state - Russia, is quite obvious, but it is not clear what was there.)


                  In my opinion, written documents are generally not a very reliable source of information.

                  However, science history studies these very documents.

                  Archeology, with its material evidence, is more credible.

                  Hehe ... Well, you found a bunch of clay shards - and what will you do with them?

                  "Confidence" in him "causes" ...
                  There was such a well-known "archaeologist" who excavated Troy. And even Mycenae. I found treasures both there and there.
                  That's just ...
                  Once upon a time there was a nasty German boy. This boy came to the country of Russia. converted to Orthodoxy. He married, children were born ... His compatriots gave him the opportunity to do business. Well, he got busy ...
                  Here, once in a while, the war began: well, of course, the war is a good chance for a "business man", and the bastard is no longer a boy who began to supply boots to the Russian army ... on cardboard soles. He got rich fabulously - on cardboard. But the case was revealed - and the disgusting boy no longer had to run ... His family, wife, children, he understandably abandoned - think good! Well, I ran away. He again adopted Lutheranism (what is he? Well, with the money stolen from Russian soldiers, I decided to do something pleasant, for the "soul", so skat.
                  Well, I immediately discovered a bunch of ancient treasures, yes.

                  Will we believe it? Does "trust" cause?
                  Well, well.
                2. AK64
                  AK64 6 May 2016 09: 09
                  0
                  But you see what thing ...

                  You say that Russian pre-Mongol history is not well founded. Well, let's say ... That is, in principle, we can carefully agree.

                  But the fact is that Japan has not only the 10th century, but the 6th and the 16th! All the more or less reliable begins only with the Portuguese (all the way to the language! Pay attention to the language.)
                  And something coherent - only from the 18th century.
                  In the 16th century --- if you read what is written, then it is "some gangs of reciters wandered around some territory, in wooden armor, and robbed the peasants."
                  Relate yourself to what age in Europe this may correspond.
                  1. Verdun
                    Verdun 6 May 2016 10: 40
                    0
                    gave birth to some gang of reciters in a certain territory, in wooden armor, and robbed peasants
                    But what about the attempts to land the Mongols in Japan in 1274 and 1281? Khubilai fought with racketeers? Or was it after the 16th century?
                  2. AK64
                    AK64 6 May 2016 10: 49
                    0
                    But what about the attempts to land the Mongols in Japan in 1274 and 1281? Khubilai fought with racketeers? Or was it after the 16th century?

                    And what is known about this, except for legends?
                    They swam somewhere, a storm began, everyone drowned ...
                    Everything is completely mythical: the myths of ancient Greece are better developed ...

                    Nothing reliable is known about these expeditions, and it is not even clear whether they were (especially given the constant military problem of Khubilai and descendants in southern China.)
                    But even what they say about these expeditions: supposedly plainly not one sailed. And those that sailed - disappeared somewhere.

                    That is, these are the next legends.

                    In reality, the 12th century in Japan is somewhere in the mythical (that is, BEFORE the Trojan War) period of Ancient Greece: some individual heroes hang around the country and perform feats.
                    The feeling is just that.

                    The "life" of Japanese peasants in the 16th, and even until the middle of the 19th century, seems to be suggestive.
                    I had wonderful foty on Fotki.ru, but there all the accounts were hung up, bastards. So I can’t show it.
                  3. Verdun
                    Verdun 6 May 2016 11: 13
                    0
                    And what is known about this, except for legends?
                    I recommend that you familiarize yourself with the material at least at the link http://www.synologia.ru/a. Article
                    XNUMXth century Mongol invasion of Japanese islands
                    (based on Chinese dynasty stories),
                    There are by no means referenced legends.
                    Author: Kadyrbaev A.Sh. Doctor of Historical Sciences, Senior Researcher, Institute of Oriental Studies, RAS.
                    Art. publ.: Society and State in China: XXXLII Scientific Conference: On the Centenary of the Birth of L.I. Duman / Institute of Oriental Studies;
                  4. AK64
                    AK64 6 May 2016 12: 17
                    0
                    Legends

                    Evidence at the level of the Trojan War
                  5. Verdun
                    Verdun 6 May 2016 12: 47
                    0
                    That is, everything that does not fit into your theory is not proof? Then our argument makes no sense.
                  6. AK64
                    AK64 6 May 2016 14: 01
                    0
                    That is, everything that does not fit into your theory is not proof? Then our argument makes no sense.


                    (1) I have theory? I didn’t know ... After all, the proofs should be presented precisely to those who propose the "theory". I'm telling you -- no evidence.
                    \ sighed heavily \
                    (2) what is there about this "invasion" ... Well, let's look at the first (reliable) episode:
                    Battle of tushusha island
                    On October 5, About 1,000 soldiers of Mongolian Army landed at Komoda Beach. Sukekuni So (宗 助 国), Shugodai of Tsushima Island was killed in action. The Mongolians slaughtered many dwellers of Tsushima island.

                    What do we see? About 1000 (of course) Mongols (of course!) Landed on Tsushima (see map). They killed the local godfather and ... "many".
                    Everything ... is reliable - but information .. 0.

                    Second episode:
                    Battle of iki island
                    On October 14, Taira no Kagetaka (平 景隆), Shugodai of Iki led about 100 soldiers. They were defeated by the Mongolian army and he committed suicide in Hidzume Castle (樋 詰 城). [9] About 1,000 Japanese soldiers were killed there.

                    Aha ... Local authority opposed the Mongols. With 100 bulls. (they write "about 100" - but in the documents there are exactly 100, do not hesitate) As a result, "about 1000" Japanese "soldiers" were killed.

                    Information again - 0. Or more?

                    And there it is - you can parse episode after episode. Everything will be the same.

                    In addition to one - the final defeat of the Mongols.

                    Hang your ears for noodles: supposedly landed ... 100 thousand (so-so, exactly one hundred thousand) Mongols. But without commanders. That is completely.

                    In general, this story is not worth poking around: this is Homeriada: Odysseus and his adventures.
                    No, well, there was something --- after all, Troy most likely was, and even the Trojan War. But WHAT was there really?

                    Maybe different "brigades" of reciters even united to protect their "kiosks" - anything is possible.

                    But all official Japanese history becomes more or less logical only with such interpretation: forest, taiga, rare peasants, and individual gangs of samurai reciters roam the territory.

                    Everything else looks completely mischievous.

                    This is Ancient Greece before the Trojan War - the same level of social development. Heroes, Myths, Hydras and Jellyfish Gargon ....
                    Everything is exactly the same - they only combed their hair and removed the Hydra in order to make it scientific. But were they like without hydras? Heroics!
                  7. Verdun
                    Verdun 6 May 2016 14: 43
                    0
                    Local authority opposed the Mongol
                    By and large, all princes, dukes, counts, etc. were such authorities. Russian, Japanese, European - absolutely everything. The prince's squad rarely exceeded three hundred warriors. Knights were generally counted on the fingers. And the militia and mercenaries - who will count them?
                    This is Ancient Greece before the Trojan War - the same level of social development
                    As for Ancient Greece, archaeological finds - I do not mean Shlimman at all - allow us to judge the high level of development of the technical and scientific of this country, which is simply impossible without the development of social. For the same reason, doubts about the poorly developed Scythia and Mongolia are doubtful. To produce high-quality armor and weapons, we need a production base and technology. For example, Scythians created iron akinaki back in those days when the soldiers of Rome used bronze swords. The lifestyle of ancient Japan was based on the opportunities that their territory provided for living. And these opportunities were much inferior to the possibilities of the same mainland China. But this is no reason to argue that Japan has no history before the 16th century. There is not much left of the great Mongolia either. But few dispute that the Mongol army reached Europe.
                  8. AK64
                    AK64 6 May 2016 16: 16
                    +1
                    aaaaaaaaa ... \ and waved his hand
                  9. AK64
                    AK64 6 May 2016 16: 16
                    0
                    aaaaaaaaa ... \ and waved his hand
  • AK64
    AK64 6 May 2016 08: 46
    0
    I won’t even listen to you, like a schoolgirl from the United States. Well, not the authorities. You and she are in history, just as I am not an authority in physics or biology. Let everyone do their own thing!


    God bless God.
    But just show at least something tangible from Japanese history until the 16th century?

    But there is nothing.

    And not to listen is as much as you want: indeed, why listen?

    PS: Yes, according to Vyacheslav, readers may get the feeling that in Japan I was doing something reprehensible: I sold cars there or even delivered guns there. So, just in case: I did (and do) not at all.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Verdun
    Verdun 5 May 2016 16: 21
    +2
    Two shells passed by altogether and both ended up in the building of the former Moscow Military Research Center ... more than 1000 rifles, pistols, rare prototypes, drawings, many historically valuable military and civilian artifacts evaporated without a trace ...
    I really didn’t know that Yeltsin also needed to be thanked for this! And the article is very curious and informative. Thanks to the author!
  • cth; fyn
    cth; fyn 12 May 2016 08: 54
    0
    What a good story ... About buying up stolen goods.