Military Review

Projects of self-propelled anti-aircraft installations based on the tank Pz.Kpfw.V Panther (Germany)

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One of the most famous German tanks from the Second World War is Pz.Kpfw.V Panther. This car was considered quite successful, which is why pretty quickly there were proposals to use its chassis for the construction of promising equipment for other purposes. First of all, it was proposed to use the Panther as a base for self-propelled artillery mounts for various purposes. For several years, German experts have been developing similar systems for various purposes, including anti-aircraft weapons. All such projects are sometimes referred to for convenience as the general designation Flakpanzer V - “Anti-aircraft tank based on Pz.Kpfw.V”.


At the end of 1942 and the beginning of 1943, the German industry began working on various options for building anti-aircraft self-propelled guns on the chassis of existing tanks. During the 1943-44, several developments based on the Pz.Kpfw.IV tanker reached limited series production and operation in the military. In parallel, projects of similar technology were created on the basis of the tank Pz.Kpfw.V, however, they never left the design stage and were not implemented in the metal. It should also be noted that such a fate befell at once several ZSU projects based on the “Panthers”, which were being developed at different times.

According to reports, the first version of anti-aircraft self-propelled guns based on the Pz.Kpfw.V tank was proposed back in late 1942. It was proposed to remove the turret from the base armored vehicle and to install the 18 mm FlaK 88 anti-aircraft gun in its place. It was assumed that such an armored vehicle would be able to move along with various units and provide them with protection against attacks aviation the enemy. Nevertheless, this project did not leave the stage of preliminary studies and remained on paper.

Projects of self-propelled anti-aircraft installations based on the tank Pz.Kpfw.V Panther (Germany)
Tank Pz.Kpfw.V - a failed basis for promising ZSU. Photo of Wikimedia Commons


Theoretical studies have shown that self-propelled chassis with large-caliber guns are of particular interest to the troops, but more important for the army are ZSU with automatic small-caliber guns. For this reason, at the beginning of 1943, the development of new versions of self-propelled guns based on the Panther, which were proposed to equip several-caliber small-caliber guns, started. We considered the armament of the machine in the form of four 20-mm cannons, two or three 37-millimeter or paired installation with 55 mm caliber guns.

Base chassis

To simplify the development and construction of new equipment, it was proposed to use the existing tank chassis with minimal design changes. Moreover, in the end, it was possible to do without any modifications of the hull and other chassis units: all that had to be changed was the internal equipment of the combat compartment, which should correspond to the new purpose of the vehicle. All other components and assemblies remained in place.

One of the main features of the base chassis was a powerful reservation made from sheets of thickness up to 80 mm. In theory, this allowed the ZSU to work at the forefront with minimal risk of being hit by enemy shells. The power plant and the undercarriage of the existing chassis made it possible to work in the same combat formations with other tanks of various types, which made it possible to protect the equipment from raids on the march, in positions and during combat.


Estimated appearance of the first version of the ZSU with four 20-mm guns. Figure Aviarmor.net


The project of the medium tank Pz.Kpfw.V implemented the main ideas characteristic of the German tank construction of the time. For example, used the traditional layout of the body with the front of the transmission and the separation of management, located next to it. The central compartment was given under the fighting compartment, and in the stern was located the engine with the necessary units. Another characteristic feature of the "Panther" and other German tanks of the time was the so-called. Knipkamp suspension. As part of the chassis there were eight dual road wheels on each side, arranged in a checkerboard pattern.

Tanks Pz.Kpfw.V first editions were equipped with gasoline engines Maybach HL 210 P30. Later, the HL 230 P45 engine, which developed power up to 700 hp, replaced this product. Through the main clutch, drive shaft, seven-speed gearbox and other units, the engine torque was output to the front drive wheels. To simplify the production, the gearbox and the main steering mechanism were made in the form of a single unit.

2 cm Flakpanzer V

As part of the new ZSU projects, it was proposed to replace the original tank tower with new combat modules with the appropriate weapons. The first was proposed option with 20-mm guns. By the summer of 1943, the company Rheinmetall-Borsig had completed the preliminary development of a similar system, which was supposed to provide high firepower and efficiency in the fight against air targets.


The only full-size model built under the Flakpanzer V project is the Coelian ZSU. Photo Chamberlain P., Doyle H. Complete reference book of German tanks and self-propelled guns of World War II


Exact information regarding the appearance of such a tower has not been preserved, which leads to the appearance of various versions. According to one of the assumptions, the tower for four guns should have a box-shaped front part and a conical stern, and also be made in the form of a two-tier unit. In this case, two guns were to be placed in its lower part, and the other two - at the top. Nevertheless, it cannot be excluded that a quadruple system similar to those used in anti-aircraft units could be mounted in the tower. The drawings of this tower, unfortunately, are not preserved.

The main weapons The ZSU Flakpanzer V of this version should have become four automatic MG 151 / 20 air cannons. Such a gun with automatics, working on recoil trunks, could make up to 750 rounds per minute (3 thousand shots in total) and attack targets at ranges up to 1,5 km. In ammunition guns included shells of several types. Due to the high rate of fire and the use of four guns in one installation, it was possible to significantly increase the probability of hitting and to some extent compensate for the small power of the projectiles.

In the autumn of the same year, the potential customer reviewed the proposed project and ordered that further work be refused. The short range of fire, combined with the lack of power of ammunition did not allow to carry out effective air defense. Even the four MG 151 / 20 guns did not allow the troops to be protected from the attack of modern or advanced aircraft.

Flakpanzer 341 Coelian

A project with four 20-mm guns was abandoned in the fall of 1943, and a new order arrived at the beginning of winter. Now the industry had to create a new ZSU with automatic guns caliber 37 and 55 mm. Such a weapon should have given a significant increase in firepower, range and effectiveness.


Layout on a real chassis from a different angle. Photo Chamberlain P., Doyle H. Complete reference book of German tanks and self-propelled guns of World War II


The result of the new works was the appearance of the second version of the tower with anti-aircraft weapons. Krupp and Daimler-Benz companies (according to other data, Rheinmetall) created a rotating turret with fastening systems for two 37 mm caliber guns. This project reached the layout of a promising machine and therefore became the most famous representative of the Flakpanzer V family. In various sources, a self-propelled gun with a pair of 37-mm guns is designated as Flakpanzer 341, Gerät 554 or Coelian.

A new type of tower was proposed to be assembled from a set of armor plates of different thickness and shape. It is known that in the later stages of development, the design of armor units was considerably simplified, which should have affected the labor intensity of their production. In the final form, the forehead of the tower was formed by vertical lower sheets and inclined upper ones. Vertical sides and curved feeds were also envisaged. The front part of the tower was supposed to have a U-shaped form in terms of and be equipped with a swinging unit for the installation of two guns. The breech of the guns was covered by a common oblong casing.


Pitchfork front. Photo Aviarmor.net


As the main weapon for the Flakpanzer 341, two automatic guns 3.7 cm FlaK 43 were offered. Guns with a practical rate of fire up to 150 shots per minute could accelerate a projectile to speeds over 1000-1100 m / s and fire at ranges up to 2 km (at air targets) or up to 6-6,5 km (on land). Guns with automatic on the basis of exhaust gases for ammunition used clips on 8 shells each.

The design of the Coelian machine continued until the fall of 1944. By this time, the new construction of the tower was worked out and some other changes were made. The work resulted in the assembly of a prototype model of a promising anti-aircraft self-propelled gun. For its construction was taken available in the presence of the chassis of the tank Pz.Kpfw.V Ausf.D, recently undergone repairs. A tank was removed from the tank, and in its place was installed a wooden model of a promising unit with automatic guns. Such a product could not be used for military purposes, but demonstrated the general provisions of the project. In particular, the tower could rotate and change the angle of elevation of the guns.


Flakpanzer 341 with a maximum angle of elevation of the guns. Photo Aviarmor.net


Layout ZSU Flakpanzer 341 showed the military and those with some reservations approved the project. It was recommended once again to rework the tower, taking into account developments on the new modifications of the tank "Panther", as well as make some other changes. After that, the car could be launched into a series and sent to the troops.

5.5 cm Flakpanzer V

In early November, 1944, the company Rheinmetall presented the documentation and the layout of another ZSU, which was proposed to arm with two guns of 55 caliber mm. This project was developed in parallel with the Flakpanzer 341 machine and almost simultaneously with it reached the construction stage of a demonstration layout. In some sources, an anti-aircraft self-propelled project with paired 55-mm guns is referred to as Gerät 58. At the same time, it is known that such a name was borne by promising 55-mm guns, proposed for use on the new ZSU. Probably in this case there is a simple confusion.


One of the two built prototypes of the Gerät 55 58-mm cannon mounted on a towed carriage. Photo Wehrmacht-history.com


In the project of the company "Rheinmetall" it was proposed to use a larger tower, the dimensions of which were related to the size of the weapons used. The tower of complex polygonal shape was proposed to be assembled from straight-line armor plates littered inside. In the frontal part of the tower was provided a large cut-out for the free movement of guns in the armor cover. In terms of the overall layout of the gun mount, the Rheinmetall project was no different from that developed by Krupp and Daimler-Benz.

As a weapon for the new version of the Flakpanzer V, two Gerät 58 automatic cannons, developed in the 1944 year, were proposed. The gun had a barrel length 4,22 m (76 calibers) and had to work using the energy of powder gases. Automation allows you to shoot single or bursts at a rate of up to 150 rounds per minute. For use with the new cannon, 55x450 mm B projectiles were developed, which were proposed to be supplied with five rounds of ammunition each. The power of the gun made it possible to fire at air targets at distances up to 4 km and altitudes up to 2,5 km.

Two such guns were to be mounted on a common installation in a tower of appropriate size and used when attacking aerial targets. In addition, the power of the guns allowed the infantry to fire support and destroy the enemy’s equipment or fortifications.


Side view of the ZSU with 55-mm guns. Figure Aviarmor.net


In November, 1944, the developers of the 5.5 Flakpanzer V project presented a model of this machine, made on the scale of 1: 10. The project interested customers, but they demanded some changes. So, it was decided to equip the turret with a commander turret borrowed from the Pz.Kpfw.V tank, and also to supplement the existing armament. For some reinforcement of the main weapon and expansion of the range of tasks, two Gerät 58 guns were proposed to be supplemented with MG 151 / 20 guns and MG 42 machine guns in various combinations. In this embodiment, anti-aircraft self-propelled gun could count on entering the mass production.

Project results

By the end of 1944, two projects of promising ZSU on the basis of the tank Pz.Kpfw.V Panther had managed to advance quite far, right up to the stage of the last project changes and preparation for the construction of prototypes. However, only a few months remained until the end of the war, and German industry had already suffered serious losses. As a result, none of the projects of anti-aircraft self-propelled guns based on the Panther tank reached the assembly and testing of prototypes. In the case of the two most successful projects, everything ended in the manufacture of layouts.

Due to the difficult situation at the front, the general problems of the industry and the alleged long-term fine-tuning of projects, the army decided to abandon the continuation of work on Flakpanzer V. 14 February 1945, all work on what seemed to be a promising direction was completely stopped. The Flakpanzer 341 and 5.5 cm Flakpanzer V projects have almost been redesigned to meet new requirements, but they have been ordered to close. All efforts needed to focus on the release of equipment already in mass production.

It should be noted that the implementation of new projects was difficult and without the decision of the military. So, for the construction of self-propelled guns with twin guns caliber 55 mm required to start mass production of such weapons. However, until the end of the war, Germany managed to collect only two prototypes of Gerät 58 cannons. Thus, the possible supply of guns for the ZSU was a big question. The second version of the self-propelled gun, Coelian, could also face serious difficulties of a production nature.

Despite all the efforts, the German specialists did not succeed in successfully implementing the projects of self-propelled anti-aircraft installations based on the Panther tank Pz.Kpfw.V. It was proposed several options for such technology, but they all appeared too late and required the creation of a significant number of new nodes and assemblies. In addition, the final requirements for the new technology were identified literally a couple of years before the end of the war. As a result, a number of projects that were of some interest and had great prospects were not brought to mass production or at least to the construction of full-fledged prototypes. The task of self-propelled armaments of troops with anti-aircraft weapons again did not receive a complete solution.


Based on:
http://lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/
http://achtungpanzer.com/
http://aviarmor.net/
http://armor.kiev.ua/
http://navweaps.com/
http://wehrmacht-history.com/
Chamberlain P., Doyle H. Complete reference book of German tanks and self-propelled guns of the Second World War. - M .: AST: Astrel, 2008.
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  4. Volga Cossack
    Volga Cossack April 8 2016 06: 24
    +6
    Thanks!!! the whole cycle is good. Well, for a snack .......... good image
    1. igordok
      igordok April 8 2016 08: 24
      +6
      Quote: Volga Cossack
      Thanks!!! the whole cycle is good. Well, for a snack .......... good image

      Add.
  5. gla172
    gla172 April 8 2016 06: 37
    +7
    "..... This car was considered quite successful, which is why proposals for using its chassis appeared pretty quickly ..."

    Sorry, but this is the first time I hear about the "success" of a panther (not counting weapons), especially its chassis.
  6. qwert
    qwert April 8 2016 06: 54
    +5
    Quote: gla172
    Sorry, but this is the first time I hear about the "success" of a panther (not counting weapons), especially its chassis.

    Similarly. Good booking, a good gun and optics - yes. But everything else failed. In short, a great machine on paper, but a problem in life.
    1. DimerVladimer
      DimerVladimer April 11 2016 15: 30
      +1
      Oh well
      Why then would trophy panthers be given out to the best crews?
  7. Sars
    Sars April 8 2016 07: 25
    +2
    The layout of the chassis rollers was so successful that the frozen dirt on the tracks did not allow the Panther to move.
    1. aiw
      aiw April 8 2016 07: 57
      +9
      Of course, the German tankers were complete idiots, and did not know that before parking they had to ride on a hard surface to bring down the dirt.

      And the German designers were all polls Stirlitz, and chose this option of suspension exclusively to reduce the effectiveness of the new Panzerwaffe tanks, and not at all to ensure a smooth ride.
      1. pimen
        pimen April 8 2016 09: 23
        +5
        in principle, the staggered pattern of the rollers allows you to place more weight in a more compact body, in addition, the smoothness of the ride should increase and the risk of "taking off your shoes" in the turn should be reduced
      2. marshes
        marshes April 8 2016 13: 49
        +1
        Quote: aiw
        And the German designers were all polls Stirlitz

        So now they can complicate simple things like that. It is clear that it is advisable to carry out car repairs at specialized service stations of a particular company. In this way, they achieve higher prices for their products and create numerous jobs.
        Here, in this regard, the Japanese win. Even as jihad mobiles, carts, terrorists prefer Japanese cars.
    2. Bayonet
      Bayonet April 8 2016 11: 33
      +3
      Quote: SarS
      The layout of the chassis rollers was so successful that the frozen dirt on the tracks did not allow the Panther to move.

      The same is true for the "Tiger". And the repair of the inner rollers is a song! At the front, there were cases of jamming of the undercarriage due to the ingress of foreign objects between the drive wheel and the first road roller (the first road wheel and the drive wheel overlapped), which is why the front road wheels were often dismantled.
      1. DimerVladimer
        DimerVladimer April 11 2016 15: 39
        +2
        As Otto Carius never complained about the location of the rinks and problems with patency - yes, inexperienced commanders planted tanks in the swamp and substituted artillery sides - there are similar episodes in the memoirs.
        In the hands of experienced 4 tigers pierced the defense (Su152 was far from every site, and you still have to be in the right place at the right time). To take a settlement fortified by Pz-VI was difficult and fraught with heavy losses.
        No wonder they gave a Hero for a lined TIGER!
    3. Boos
      Boos April 9 2016 09: 57
      0
      Crowded between the rinks ... And to change the distant rinks?))) On such a chassis to carry small-caliber artillery is impractical.
    4. DimerVladimer
      DimerVladimer April 11 2016 15: 31
      +1
      but on rough terrain it moved gently, smoothly - almost a stabilized platform!
  8. igordok
    igordok April 8 2016 08: 23
    +5
    On the one hand, the anti-aircraft gun on the chassis of a serial tank is good. Anti-aircraft guns in the same ranks with tanks, patency and level of protection are the same (close). But on the other hand, the production of serial tanks, which are already lacking, will decrease. And creating a new lightweight chassis for ZSU during the war is burdensome.
    On the basis of an armored personnel carrier, it would probably be better. At least cheaper.
  9. Mad dok
    Mad dok April 8 2016 10: 00
    +3
    Quote: aiw
    Of course, the German tankers were complete idiots, and did not know that before parking they had to ride on a hard surface to bring down the dirt.

    Maybe they knew it, only where could it be found that hard surface in the fields under Prokhorovka? Yes, and tanks, in principle, do not fight on the parade ground ...
    1. Stas57
      Stas57 April 8 2016 19: 56
      +1
      Quote: Mad-dok
      Maybe they knew it, only where could it be found that hard surface in the fields under Prokhorovka? Yes, and tanks, in principle, do not fight on the parade ground ...

      under the prokhorovka there were problems with frost)
  10. mroy
    mroy April 8 2016 10: 53
    +8
    Once I met the memories of a veteran tanker who happened to fight on the captured Panther. In his opinion, the weak points were the unreliable engine and chassis. But about the working conditions of the crew, especially the driver, and the gun responded strictly positively.
    But he noted that he was happy to return to the T-34-85, precisely because of the chassis and engine.
  11. Prager
    Prager April 8 2016 11: 48
    +2
    An interesting article, competently written.
  12. Leeder
    Leeder April 8 2016 14: 25
    +1
    In vain the Germans invaded the USSR in 41, with such a pace of development, by the 45th they could have already made a vigorous bomb if they had gone west and not east. However, it was the war with the USSR that spurred their process of technical development. And it is not known what they would have expected in 45 from the USSR.
    Perhaps out of all Soviet armaments at 41, only the notorious T-34 and KV can be distinguished, probably from the small arms PPSh, and SVT. In all other respects, a deep lag behind the Germans ...
    1. marshes
      marshes April 8 2016 14: 46
      +2
      Quote: LeeDer
      Perhaps out of all Soviet armaments at 41, only the notorious T-34 and KV can be distinguished, probably from the small arms PPSh, and SVT. In all other respects, a deep lag behind the Germans ...

      I read somewhere, I’m mistaken, maybe the Germans at that time could not create a diesel engine, like in Soviet tanks.
      MLRS, not a little fear caught up with the Germans, Concrete plane-IL-2, Lavochkin, LA-5/7 pretty successful aircraft.
      The Germans were inventive but complicated everything. This "nature" passed after the war period. Complication, rise in price and excessive manufacturability. It even becomes strange, at the expense of Jews. They had to start with themselves, camps.
      1. DimerVladimer
        DimerVladimer April 11 2016 15: 42
        +1
        Why did you decide that it was Soviet engineers who created a tank diesel engine with an aluminum block?
        It was purchased in France, developed as an aircraft, and already refined by our engineers to the requirements of installation on a tank.
        Baryatinsky has a well-known fact about this.
  13. 89130517794
    89130517794 April 8 2016 15: 04
    +5
    Excuse me, what do you mean by the words: "In all other respects, a deep lag behind the Germans ..."? One of the many examples of "lag": the Soviet 120mm mortar was completely copied by the German industry, without any changes! She couldn't even reproduce a 160mm mortar! About MLRS, generally "hackneyed" topic !!! And if there was really a "deep lag", then the victory parade would be in another city! I think it would not hurt you to approach your comments more carefully!
  14. DesToeR
    DesToeR April 8 2016 17: 51
    +2
    Quote: LeeDer
    In all other respects, a deep lag behind the Germans ...

    An interesting conclusion. What about Soviet artillery?
    Quote: qwert
    Good booking, a good gun and optics - yes. But everything else failed. In short, a great machine on paper, but a problem in life.

    Only an optimist can say that 70% of the surface of a tank with 40-50mm armor for a vehicle weighing 45t for 1943 is successful. And pragmatism, in the face of Soviet soldiers, did not even pay much attention to the presence of Panther tanks in the Panzerwaffe units on the Kursk Bulge - the standard anti-tank artillery coped with the fascists' novelty. The German "good cannon" in 75mm fired a projectile weighing up to 7kg using a powder charge similar to that of the 100mm D-10T cannon firing 10kg shells. Only the effect on the target, as you might guess, was different, both armor-piercing and high-explosive fragmentation. The tank's undercarriage and engine-transmission units are a complete failure. And what's the bottom line? Excellent optics and an accurate weapon, coupled with the convenience of the crew, allowed the Panther tank to catch on to the Panzerwaffe. And the Nazis did not have much choice - they had to replace their obsolete "four" with something in the line regiments of tank divisions. This "something" was actually a heavy (45t) tank "Panther" with armament and armor at the level of a medium tank.
    1. marshes
      marshes April 8 2016 18: 02
      0
      And you can’t tell me how much Panther costs in rehsmarks and T-34-85 in rubles in terms of a more understandable currency smile , and how many hours were spent on these machines.
      I think it will be clear here in the "divorce" of their own people by German industrialists.
    2. DimerVladimer
      DimerVladimer April 11 2016 15: 52
      +2
      [quote = DesToeR] It’s only optimistic to call 70% of the tank’s surface with armor 40-50mm for a car weighing 45t for 1943 [/ quote

      Can I be an optimist as an engineer?
      The Panther’s reservation in the frontal projection due to the optimized inclination of the frontal part was very successful - both German specialists and Soviet tankers spoke very highly of it.

      No one reserves tanks the same over the entire area - this is an axiom of tank construction.
      if you wanted to get inspired by the topic, you would look at the statistics of getting into tanks — I won’t give exact numbers — but it was believed that the tower was about 55-60% of hits (even some T-34 commanders were replacing the radio gunner in the corps that was not too pleasing to the radio operator). About 30% of hits were in the frontal armor, the rest in the chassis (gusli, skating rinks) in the brt was extremely small (ambush, etc.).
      In the frontal projection, the Pz-V was booked better than the Pz-VI (Guderian's memoirs), which is why it later appeared Tirg-II (royal tiger) with optimized frontal armor.
  15. Leeder
    Leeder April 12 2016 17: 17
    +1
    Quote: marshes
    I read somewhere, I’m mistaken, maybe the Germans at that time could not create a diesel engine, like in Soviet tanks.
    MLRS, not a little fear caught up with the Germans, Concrete plane-IL-2, Lavochkin, LA-5/7 pretty successful aircraft.
    The Germans were inventive, but complicated everything. This "nature" passed after the war period. Complication, rise in price and excessive manufacturability.

    And nothing that the Germans invented Diesel? They had another problem with diesel - fuel. Up to 50% of their equipment used "coal" gasoline.
    The Germans had missile technology, it’s enough to recall the FAA, just at 41 they did not see the tactics of application.
    IL-2 in the 41st was a target, until they introduced the shooter and developed the tactics of use, it was not without reason that the Hero of the USSR was given for 10 sorties.
    La-5 is already 43 ... And at 41 there were mainly I-15, I-16, a little LaGG-3 and Yak-1
    And excessive manufacturability was caused by a banal lack of resources.
    Of course, there is also the policy of the best ...
  16. Leeder
    Leeder April 12 2016 17: 27
    0
    Quote: 89130517794
    Excuse me, what do you mean by the words: "In all other respects, a deep lag behind the Germans ..."? One of the many examples of "lag": the Soviet 120mm mortar was completely copied by the German industry, without any changes! She couldn't even reproduce a 160mm mortar! About MLRS, generally "hackneyed" topic !!! And if there was really a "deep lag", then the victory parade would be in another city! I think it would not hurt you to approach your comments more carefully!

    And the Germans did not have large-caliber mortars in 41, so talking about superiority is not entirely correct. In addition, why copied unchanged?
    the Germans, who willingly adopted all kind of worthy trophy equipment, in the case of Shavyrin’s 120-mm mortar, immediately after familiarizing themselves with it and the ammunition for mass production, thanks to the slightly increased barrel length, the German mortar had a large (550 m ) firing range.

    Mortars can be made almost at the forge, the design is too simple. We would like to tear it off, it was mandatory.
    About MLRS, I already wrote above.
  17. Leeder
    Leeder April 12 2016 17: 54
    0
    Quote: DesToeR
    Quote: LeeDer
    In all other respects, a deep lag behind the Germans ...

    An interesting conclusion. What about Soviet artillery?

    And what about artillery? ZiS-3? 45 mm anti-tank?
    Any artillery, this is the quality of the barrel and optics, and who better?
    An excellent anti-tank gun would be the ZiS-2, but it could not be fired precisely because of the high adaptability of the barrel.
    ZiS-3 and 45 mm already by the year 43 as a VET were no good, but the German 105 mm howitzer calmly survived to the end of the war.
    Compared to the German anti-tank gun, the ZIS-3, due to the weaker barrel group, lower propellant charge and lower quality of shells, significantly loses in armor penetration

    I do not plead at all for the courage and heroism of our ancestors, but in general the quality of weapons was 41 in inferior.
    1. 89130517794
      89130517794 April 12 2016 19: 25
      0
      Of course, the most accessible tactic for getting out of an uncomfortable situation is "to compare the gift of God with an egg"! Especially in the case of PT artillery! What does the 107mm howitzer have to do with the pta, especially since it is a clear example of the inability of German industry to quickly replace the obsolete with a new one in production! The Wehrmacht inherited the 107mm howitzer from the First World War from the Reichswehr, already by the beginning of the second it had to be removed from service due to its complete unsuitability for mechanical traction, but the industry could not establish the production of the modernized weapon in the required quantity, and the "old woman" was dragged until the end of the war horse-drawn! And yet, who told you that the ZiS-2 allegedly "could not release" ?! Look at the statistics of the acquisition of weapons for individual artillery units and IPTA formations! And the ZiS-3 was and remains, until now, a universal instrument of support, and the tasks of pto with its help were solved only in the absence of other means of pto! I no longer mention BS-3! My grandfather, in 1945, together with the Poles, two BS-3 battalions burned a group of German heavy tanks and self-propelled vehicles (including T-5) that burst from the surrounded Berlin, and only one of the "panthers" was knocked out, and I keep the trophy non-sissor from it.
  18. Leeder
    Leeder April 13 2016 10: 57
    0
    Quote: 89130517794

    What does the 107mm howitzer have to do with pta, especially since it is a clear example of the inability of German industry to quickly replace the obsolete with a new one in production! The Wehrmacht inherited the 107mm howitzer from the First World War from the Reichswehr, already by the beginning of the second it had to be removed from service due to its complete unsuitability for mechanical traction, but the industry could not establish the production of the modernized weapon in the required quantity, and the "old woman" was dragged until the end of the war horse-drawn!

    Dear, it's ugly to go on to insults, I did not insult you.
    I did not compare VET and howitzers, this is of course stupid. I gave an example of a successful weapon that went through the whole war without radical changes. I don’t know which howitzer you had in mind, but I was talking about 10,5 cm leFH 18 from 39 years old. There was no talk of horse traction there.
    And yet, who told you that the ZiS-2 allegedly "could not release" ?! Look at the statistics of the acquisition of weapons for individual artillery units and IPTA formations! And the ZiS-3 was and remains, until now, a universal instrument of support, and the tasks of pto with its help were solved only in the absence of other means of pto!

    I focus on data on the production of ZiS-2, for 41 years only 340 units have been produced.

    Serial production of the gun was carried out in 1941 and from 1943 to 1949. Mastering the serial production of guns at Gorky Plant No. 92 was difficult — compared to previously manufactured guns ZIS-2 was distinguished by increased complexity of the design. Particular problems were caused by the manufacture of a long barrel, accompanied by a large number of defects. During the development of serial production, the department of the chief designer of the plant did a great job to improve the production culture, but it was not possible to finalize the technology. In November 1941, it was decided to suspend the serial production of ZIS-2.

    And ZiS-3 according to the GRAU index passes precisely as a VET, and until the end of 44 it was the main VET weapon.
    The gun was excellent in terms of low manufacturability, reliability, and had excellent anti-recoil properties. However, when compared with the German Pak 40 as a PTO (comparable caliber), the armored penetration of the ZIS-3 looks depressing.

    I don't mention BS-3 anymore! My grandfather, in 1945, together with the Poles, two BS-3 battalions burned a group of German heavy tanks and self-propelled vehicles (including T-5) bursting in from surrounded Berlin, and only one of the "panthers" was knocked out, and I keep the trophy non-sissor from it.

    BS-3 is already 43 years old, (upon the fact that even 44 appeared in the army), and it was about the beginning of the war, 41 years old.
  19. Mikhail Matyugin
    Mikhail Matyugin April 15 2016 19: 28
    +1
    A ZSU based on the very expensive Panther chassis is, of course, nonsense. But on the other hand, it is good that the Germans did not receive mass production of such units, because these would be really powerful and forward-looking attitudes that would do a lot of harm.