Military Review

Automaton before the new era

157
20 questions to the experts of the departments that determine the development strategy of small weapons


The reason for asking questions is the lack of answers about the reasons for the destruction of the AK-47, which is described in the Quick Start Guide (1949 edition of the year): "The Kalashnikov 7,62-mm automatic rifle is a powerful automatic individual small arms."

As is known, the power of fire (weapons) is determined by the formula: M = E * n * p, where E is the energy of the bullet at the target, n is the rate of fire, and p is the probability of hitting the target; at the same time, the dimension (energy of impact of a bullet on a target / time) indicates the amount of muzzle energy useful for the time spent.

In addition, muzzle energy is associated with the probability of hitting through a ballistic coefficient (BC), which characterizes the ability of a bullet to maintain the direction of movement to the target and depends on the combination of caliber, bullet weight and its initial velocity.

Automaton before the new era


1 question. Can we deny that the likelihood of a bullet depends on the quality of bringing a weapon to a normal battle, that is, on the normal position of the front sight on the barrel?

2 question. Is it possible to deny that, as a result of bringing to a normal battle, the influence of the recoil of the weapon on the angle of departure and, consequently, on the dispersion of bullets, is eliminated?

3 question. Is it possible to deny that the accuracy and accuracy parameters for single shooting with automatic rifles of 7,62 and 5,45 caliber correspond to the same standards specified in the Manual on rifle case (NSD)?

4 question. Is it possible to deny that the accuracy and accuracy parameters of firing with bursts of light machine guns of caliber 7,62 and 5,45 meet the same standards specified in the unauthorized access regime?

5 question. If the automata do not set standards for accuracy and accuracy of firing bursts, then why the uncertainty of these parameters is used to propagate both the absent advantages of AK-12 and the nonexistent minuses of AK-47?

6 question. Is it possible to deny that the 7,62 bullet BK is higher than the 5,45 bullet BQ, and that the low stability of the latter in the trajectory according to the AK-74 state test report leads to the possibility of rebounding even from light obstacles?

7 question. How could the reduction in XK of the 5,45 bullet lead to smaller — compared to the 7,62 bullet — probable deviations indicated in the firing tables?

8 question. Why did the “Warrior”, caught up in 7,62 bullets, retaining destructive power at a distance of up to 1500 meters, have to fire back from AK-12 5,45 bullets, retaining destructive power at a distance of 1350 meters?

9 question. If in the AK-47 Service Quick Guide, the rate of 600 firing per minute is indicated, then why is the same rate specified in the ATA on AKM, which is equipped with a trigger retarder?

10 question. Is it possible to deny that replacing the AK-47 with AKM with a lower rate of fire is a clear disregard for such a characteristic as firing power and, therefore, the fundamentals of design laid down by V. G. Fedorov and A. A. Blagonravov?

11 question. If GOST 28653-90 “Small arms. Terms and definitions ”does not allow the substitution of the concept of“ practical rate of fire ”by the concept of“ combat rate of fire ”, then why the term that has no meaning is used in unauthorized access, the lexicon and in correspondence?

12 question. What is taught by NSD, according to which the combat rate of fire when shooting single shots from the RPK-74 can reach 50 shots per minute, and from AK-74 - only 40, despite the fact that the automation cycle is the same?

13 question. Can we deny that the main reason for the appearance of automatic weapons was the desire to increase their power by increasing the rate of fire included in the formula, which depends on the time of reloading?

14 question. Can one deny the objectivity of the definition of terms: “loading is the bringing of all mechanisms of a weapon to its original position before a shot, and reloading is the restoration of the initial position of all mechanisms after a shot”?

15 question. Can we deny that the reloading of modern weapons is not fully automated, since restoring the original position of the firing mechanism (USM) provides the shooter when the trigger is released from the pressure?

16 question. What for at the level of GOST 28653-90 creates the appearance of the existence of small arms with full automation of reloading (the term 7)?

17 question. What prevents to issue and implement a tactical and technical requirement such as “Automate the process of preparing USM for re-firing” or “Ensure the full automation of the reloading of small arms”?

18 question. Is it possible to deny that restoring the original position of the trigger provides complete reloading automation by definition of V. G. Fedorov: “In an automatic weapon, the pressure of powder gases developed when fired is used not only to eject a bullet from the barrel, but also to reload, namely: opening the bolt, ejecting the spent cartridge case, cocking the coil spring of the trigger or hammer, inserting a new cartridge into the barrel chamber and locking the bolt; the only thing left for the shooter is the work of aiming, pulling the trigger and changing the magazine or tape when the cartridges are spent?

19 question. Is it possible to deny that reloading according to Fedorov opens the era of transition to small arms of a new type, capable of firing single fires with extremely high rate of fire, which will depend only on pressing the cyclically returned trigger?

20 question. Can the idea of ​​Fedorov be realized by a potential adversary or by any of our competitors in the arms market, if the intellectual property of the Russian Federation in this area does not have international legal protection?
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157 comments
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  1. Igor39
    Igor39 27 March 2016 06: 36
    +16
    There are a lot of questions, of course, but in my opinion 5,45, especially the AK 74m, shoots very closely in any mode, and the bullets remain stable longer than 7,62, because they are heavier and write out a steeper trajectory, about penetration, then new ammunition 7n10,7. 22,7n24n7,62 are comparable to 5,45, so in my opinion 12 is a good caliber for AK XNUMX. I just don’t understand why AKM is so praised.
    1. Dimon19661
      Dimon19661 27 March 2016 07: 15
      +7
      Many believe that the higher the caliber, the higher the efficiency. Although this is far from always the case.
      1. Mahmut
        Mahmut 27 March 2016 08: 10
        -3
        Shot from different machine guns. AK-74 compared with AKM - a pale shadow. AKM shoots more accurately. This is especially noticeable at a distance of more than 100 meters. I had to shoot at a target, most of which was covered by a bush. So, all the bullets lay down accurately and closely, as if there were no obstacles in the way. The holes are smooth and neat. Whether it’s the AK-74. At a 100 meter distance, the paper target does not pierce, but simply tears. Because the bullet flips in flight like a butterfly and hits the target flat. It may be painful, but the area of ​​the contact spot for the purpose increases by an order of magnitude, and the penetration power decreases accordingly. And given the small mass of the bullet, the result is even worse. Again, somersault of a light bullet during a flight does not help to maintain its speed at a great distance. The only advantage of the AK-74 compared to the AKM is that it does not lay ears from a shot. And there is no ringing in the ears an hour later, even 2 hours after the shooting.
        1. Igor39
          Igor39 27 March 2016 08: 21
          +28
          Do 5,45 bullets start tumbling at a distance of 100 meters? I didn’t hear it, I heard that the AKM has a direct shot range of 350 meters and the AK 74 meters. Do some light bullets tumble during the flight? I also did not hear it, I heard that light bullets retain trajectory stability longer.
          1. pofigist_26_rus
            pofigist_26_rus 27 March 2016 09: 05
            +8
            Bullets of 5,45 caliber "tumble", that is, they lose stability, not during flight, but when they collide with an obstacle. In this regard, for the special forces and the Ministry of Internal Affairs, an ammunition was created with less sensitivity to ricochet, that is, with greater stability (5,45 PRS).
            1. Igor39
              Igor39 27 March 2016 09: 19
              +16
              Bullets of 5,45 PRS without a core go, they were made in order to avoid dangerous rebounds from concrete walls in city battles, they crumple simply and not ricochet, what stability you tell me is incomprehensible.
              1. Mahmut
                Mahmut 27 March 2016 09: 49
                -9
                AKM direct firing range 350 meters and AK 74 450 meters

                On paper maybe. And in fact, where will the increase come from. The length of a direct shot, if it depends on the mass of the bullet, is not in a direct but in inverse proportion. And the guns have a longer direct shot than bullets. Because the larger the mass, the higher the ability of the projectile (bullet) to maintain its speed while resisting the air flow. And it is the preservation of speed in the oncoming air stream that allows the pool to fly, and not to fall parabolic. The fact that AKM has a direct shot range of 350 meters is the MIF, because even when moving to a distance of 200 meters you have to raise the aiming bar. And about the AK-74 and say no. I also read a lot about the benefits of 5,45 over 7,62. But in my own practice I was convinced of the opposite.
                1. Droid
                  Droid 27 March 2016 09: 54
                  +17
                  You first read the definition of a direct shot, and then write. At the same time, look at the signs for exceeding the paths.
                2. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 27 March 2016 10: 13
                  +1
                  Quote: Mahmut
                  And the guns have a longer direct shot than bullets.

                  Damn, guys ... From the gun sparrows growth targets do not shoot. And the tank is clearly higher than 8)))

                  The range of a direct shot is still very much dependent on the height of the target.
                3. Vladimirets
                  Vladimirets 27 March 2016 10: 55
                  +3
                  Quote: Mahmut
                  The length of a direct shot, if it depends on the mass of the bullet, is not in a direct but in inverse proportion

                  But what, air resistance and gravity have already been canceled?
                  1. Throw
                    Throw 27 March 2016 23: 05
                    0
                    The range of a direct shot depends on:
                    - ballistic of the bullet \ projectile (determined by the mass, shape, CM and CA of the projectile, muzzle energy \ speed, angular velocity of rotation) and
                    -height of the target.
                    wink
                4. razzhivin
                  razzhivin 27 March 2016 11: 18
                  +11
                  The range of a direct shot depends on the initial speed, which is 5,45 higher ... I had to shoot both of them ... When the military unit switched to 5,45 caliber, the indicators increased on the very first firing, especially when shooting from the knee and while standing and at moving targets ... Subjectively, and because of the lower recoil and "withdrawal" of the barrel when firing in short bursts ...
                  1. BARKHAN
                    BARKHAN 27 March 2016 15: 44
                    +11
                    Soooo, it's started ... The direct shot range is the distance at which the trajectory of the bullet does not exceed the height of the target (target). That is, if only the head is visible (25cm), from the AK-74 sight "3" a direct shot 300m, aim at the edge breastwork (AKM 7.62x39 on the head sight "2", straight up to 200m). If the enemy is in full growth, the sight "6", direct shot 500-550m (for AKM 7.62X39 on the height sight "5" -400-450m).
                    But this is only a recommendation. In general, the troops are taught to shoot with a scope "3" is the same "p". Only personal shooting and constant training will save you from delusions and mistakes. At the moment, "fenced" SKSs, AKM, are on free sale And only without rushing into the hunt, having shot a couple of thousand cartridges at different distances, you will understand all the pros and cons of this type of weapon.
                    I’m providing a link to tables of the excesses of the trajectories of the above weapons samples. Now everyone will be able to personally verify the real distance of the direct shot.
                    http://maxpark.com/user/4295074750/content/1642948
                    PS By the way, the energy of the bullet is 7.62x39 at 200m such as that of 5.45x39 when exiting the barrel ...
                    Well, then the shooter’s personal preference. I personally can’t decide, with pleasure I shoot from everything that can shoot.
                    1. hardroc
                      hardroc 27 March 2016 15: 56
                      0
                      Quote: Barkhan
                      if only the head is visible (25cm)

                      Head target 30 cm high.
                      Quote: Barkhan
                      By the way, the energy of the bullet is 7.62x39 at 200m such as that of 5.45x39 when exiting the barrel ...

                      Not at the exit from the trunk, but at a distance of 100 m.
                      1. BARKHAN
                        BARKHAN 27 March 2016 19: 17
                        +1
                        Quote: hardroc
                        Quote: Barkhan
                        if only the head is visible (25cm)
                        Head target 30 cm high.

                        Do I have at least a word about the target, the head is clearly written. And all the same, this does not change the sight, for AKM "3" it is only "chest".
                        Quote: hardroc
                        By the way, the energy of the bullet is 7.62x39 at 200m such as that of 5.45x39 when exiting the barrel ...
                        Not at the exit from the trunk, but at a distance of 100 m.

                        Energy 5.45x39 at the muzzle end from 1316 to 1430 J depending on cartridge modification. Energy 7.62x39 at the muzzle 2102J, at a distance of 100m -1642J
                      2. hardroc
                        hardroc 27 March 2016 19: 51
                        -3
                        Quote: Barkhan
                        Energy 7.62x39 at the muzzle 2102J

                        I did not find such a weapon. Although under the cartridge 7,62x39 mm there were 6 of them. with 5 different ballistics. This is something between you and SKS AKM.
                        Quote: Barkhan
                        Energy 5.45x39 at the muzzle end is from 1316 to 1430 J, depending on the modification of the cartridge.

                        Usually we are always talking about a cartridge for which shooting tables are given in NSD weighing 3,4 g.
                  2. The comment was deleted.
                5. Dam
                  Dam 27 March 2016 21: 20
                  +1
                  Absolutely agree. But I can argue about combat effectiveness. The effectiveness of the target in the shelter and body armor is 7,62 higher. But the caliber requires more skill from the shooter.
              2. AK64
                AK64 27 March 2016 12: 18
                +1
                On paper maybe. And in fact, where will the increase come from.


                From the difference in n / a it will be taken: 900 vs 710 (I write from memory, someone washes and more precisely)
                1. Mahmut
                  Mahmut 27 March 2016 19: 12
                  +1
                  750 versus 715. The AK-74 has an initial initial speed higher than that of the AKM because it is easier to disperse a light bullet (a = F / m). But a light bullet not only accelerates faster in the barrel, but also faster loses speed at a distance. It is obvious. Otherwise, long-range sniper rifles would have made small-caliber.
                  1. Droid
                    Droid 27 March 2016 19: 25
                    -4
                    Otherwise, long-range sniper rifles would have made small-caliber.

                    They did, only the Union collapsed before they completed it.
                  2. Dam
                    Dam 27 March 2016 21: 27
                    0
                    Not only because of the weight of the bullet, but mainly because the other gunpowder is used. You can disperse anything, you still need to stabilize the bullet in flight and at the same time, get sane barrel wear. And the loss of speed and lowering the trajectory is affected by the BC of the bullet; it is 5,45 closer to optimal. And snipers are made larger by caliber, which would reduce, including wind drift. (there you can afford more weight and speed of the bullet due to the lack of the need to shoot bursts).
                  3. tso1973
                    tso1973 31 March 2016 12: 36
                    0
                    900 vs 715
                2. voffchik7691
                  voffchik7691 29 March 2016 20: 49
                  0
                  910 m / s for the AK-74. 715 at AKM
              3. Vadim42
                Vadim42 27 March 2016 14: 58
                0
                Have you tried to clean the machine before shooting, Chinese?
              4. gladcu2
                gladcu2 27 March 2016 18: 02
                +1
                The persistence of the trajectory depends on the initial velocity of the bullet. MV ** 2/2 Speed ​​squared. Mass plays a role but not in a square.
                1. Dam
                  Dam 27 March 2016 21: 28
                  0
                  Forgot about BC
                2. Mahmut
                  Mahmut 28 March 2016 05: 57
                  0
                  Increased muzzle velocity is more than offset by air resistance. The force of air resistance at such speeds is not even a quadratic, but a cubic dependence on the flight speed. As a result, 5,45, having a higher initial speed than 7,62, already after 100 meters of the distance begins to yield to a larger caliber.
                  1. Droid
                    Droid 28 March 2016 09: 33
                    +3
                    This is not true. 5,45 surpasses 7,62x39 over the entire firing range.
            2. AK64
              AK64 27 March 2016 12: 15
              +3
              Bullets of 5,45 PRS without a core go, they were made in order to avoid dangerous rebounds from concrete walls in city battles, they crumple simply and not ricochet, what stability you tell me is incomprehensible.


              Coreless bullets are (a) heavier, and (b) they have a greater gyroscopic moment. Hence, higher stability
          2. gladcu2
            gladcu2 27 March 2016 17: 58
            0
            The creation of special ammunition for special cases violates the main army principle, to create weapons systems as versatile as possible.
          3. svp67
            svp67 28 March 2016 04: 07
            0
            Quote: pofigist_26_rus
            Bullets of 5,45 caliber "tumble", that is, they lose stability, not during flight, but when they collide with an obstacle. In this regard, for the special forces and the Ministry of Internal Affairs, an ammunition was created with less sensitivity to ricochet, that is, with greater stability (5,45 PRS).

            You mixed two similar but completely different properties of the 5,45 mm bullet.
            This bullet has a "void" in the nose, that is, an empty space between the shell and the core
            creasing the spout leads to somersault, but it does not ricochet.
        2. Lopatov
          Lopatov 27 March 2016 09: 16
          +7
          Quote: Igor39
          I heard that the AKM has a direct shot range of 350 meters and the AK 74 meters

          This means nothing. In addition, the AK-74 has a more trajectory.

          There, the mortar doesn’t have a direct shot at all. Unless according to Godzilla 8)))
          1. Igor39
            Igor39 27 March 2016 09: 24
            +1
            Well, at 7,62 AKM the flight path is almost like that of a mortar laughing
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 27 March 2016 09: 32
              +1
              Have you already figured out what this "direct shot range" is?
          2. Aqela
            Aqela 27 March 2016 16: 28
            0
            Range of a direct shot at Godzilla ... Waited with all my heart ... laughing good
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 27 March 2016 17: 41
              +1
              A perfect example to illustrate the concept of "direct shot"

              Classic Godzilla was 50 meters high. Means direct shot range on it D-30 howitzers with a high-explosive fragmentation shell at full charge in the area 8.100 meters. Cool. And AKM and AK-74 are far ahead. laughing
        3. AK64
          AK64 27 March 2016 12: 13
          0
          I heard that light bullets maintain trajectory stability longer.


          And due to what?
          In fact, in physics, with equal sizes / shapes (i.e. equal resistance), a softer bullet will lose speed faster.
          1. BARKHAN
            BARKHAN 27 March 2016 15: 58
            +1
            Quote: AK64
            I heard that light bullets maintain trajectory stability longer.


            And due to what?
            In fact, in physics, with equal sizes / shapes (i.e. equal resistance), a softer bullet will lose speed faster.

            That is why the initial speed of the AK-74 bullet is 900 m / s versus 715 m / s for the AKM. And all the same, the bullet energy at 7.62x39 at the muzzle end 2102J against 1360-1430J at 5.45x39.
            1. hardroc
              hardroc 27 March 2016 16: 09
              -3
              Quote: Barkhan
              And still, the bullet energy at 7.62x39 at the muzzle end 2102J against 1360-1430J at 5.45x39

              1991 J for AK and 2030 J for AKM.
              1377 J for the AK-47.
              At the same time, the ballistic coefficient (BC, it is affected by the relative weight, relative length, and also the shape of the bullet), namely, with the same n / s it affects the flatness of the trajectory of the bullet, the bullet of caliber 5,45 mm is MORE than the bullet of caliber 7,62 , 74 mm. But less than n / s bullet. As a result, the total direct firing range (DPV) of a bullet fired from AK-XNUMX is MORE than that of a bullet fired from AKM.
              1. BARKHAN
                BARKHAN 27 March 2016 19: 31
                +1
                We’re not talking about flatness or the distance of a direct shot, but about the stability of a bullet’s flight at this distance. For example, 5.45 at 400m, the energy is like a smooth-bore. It blows great in the wind.
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 27 March 2016 20: 23
                  0
                  Quote: Barkhan
                  For example, 5.45 at 400m, energy, like a smooth-bore. Wind blows it great.

                  Not a fact.
                  At 400 meters, the same lateral wind of 10 m / s will blow the AK-74 bullet at 0-03,2 (1.29 meters), the AKM bullet at 0-05 (2 meters)
          2. Firstvanguard
            Firstvanguard 27 March 2016 19: 44
            +2
            Quote: AK64
            In fact, in physics, with equal sizes / shapes (i.e. equal resistance), a softer bullet will lose speed faster.

            How can there be equal dimensions if one bullet is 7.62 mm in diameter and the other is 5.45 mm ???
            Optional:
            Which of them has less aerodynamic drag?
            bully
        4. gladcu2
          gladcu2 27 March 2016 17: 56
          0
          Igor39

          There is a term, trajectory flatness.

          However, a light bullet does not conserve energy as much as a heavy one.
        5. Dam
          Dam 27 March 2016 21: 16
          -1
          Everything is a little more complicated: for each barrel with its long and twist, there is an optimal bullet weight. Sometimes they fly better heavy, sometimes light. But a bullet will tumble on 100 m only from the death of the killed AKMoid and according to FIG what gauge it is. So Mahmut was unlucky with the barrel. Direct shot 450m in the intermediate cartridge? Are you joking? Lowering by 450m at 7,62 will be about 2 meters, at 5,45 by 350 m about a meter (from the trunk length).
          1. hardroc
            hardroc 27 March 2016 22: 05
            0
            Quote: Damm
            Direct shot 450m in the intermediate cartridge? Are you joking? Lowering by 450m at 7,62 will be about 2 meters, at 5,45 by 350 m about a meter (from the trunk length).

            Learn the materiel, maniac. This is for you the NS-AK-74.
          2. The comment was deleted.
      2. hardroc
        hardroc 27 March 2016 10: 11
        +6
        Quote: Mahmut
        At a 100 meter distance, the paper target does not pierce, but simply tears. Because the bullet flips in flight like a butterfly and hits the target flat.

        I don't think you've ever fired an AK-74 if you write such nonsense. And the one who told you this "scary story", too.
      3. cap
        cap 27 March 2016 12: 46
        +2
        Quote: Mahmut
        Shot from different machine guns. AK-74 compared with AKM - a pale shadow. AKM shoots more accurately. This is especially noticeable at a distance of more than 100 meters. I had to shoot at a target, most of which was covered by a bush. So, all the bullets lay down accurately and closely, as if there were no obstacles in the way. The holes are smooth and neat. Whether it’s the AK-74. At a 100 meter distance, the paper target does not pierce, but simply tears. Because the bullet flips in flight like a butterfly and hits the target flat.


        The minuses were set by those who did not shoot more than the course of the young fighter. Three rounds.
        Do not be discouraged. I hold your opinion.
        He shot cartridges of those in the outfit and other landings. In our time, there was a mandatory standard for field training. Cartridges, as well as grenades (were issued for everyone) and did not give up after firing.
        So AK 47, three times later, began to spit bullets than recently received AKMs. AK 74 with a 5.45 bullet, generally sucks (I will not say about the special ones mentioned above). When firing a tracer, it turned out just fireworks over the parapet. hi
        LETTERS.
        In Afghanistan, AK 47 is pictured today.
        I am sure the quality of the first trunks is much higher. AK, although harder to carry, but life is more expensive. This is what the Afghans say.
      4. Forest
        Forest 27 March 2016 13: 08
        +3
        I don’t know what bullets you fired, but the 7Н10 on the 300 m from the AK-74 lays very, very crowded and clearly does not tumble. A target of 2 mm steel sheet penetrated quietly. But soldiers with AKM were much worse. I didn’t see how it flies further, but it’s unlikely that it will immediately begin to immediately change its trajectory.
        1. cap
          cap 28 March 2016 03: 39
          0
          Quote: Forest
          I don’t know what bullets you shot, but the 7H10 at 300 m from the AK-74 lies very, very heaped and clearly does not tumble. A target of 2 mm steel sheet penetrated calmly. But soldiers with AKM were much worse. I didn’t see how it flies further, but it’s unlikely that it will immediately begin to immediately change its trajectory.


          Understand me correctly, the barrel heats up faster. It spits on the fact that it is getting wider. Take the AK and AKM just visually the AK barrel is different from the AK. I shot with the bullets that they issued. The delivery rates for motorized rifle troops. hi
      5. Birdtalker
        Birdtalker April 11 2016 20: 09
        0
        Even your comment caused "ahahah".
    2. Archon
      Archon 27 March 2016 10: 05
      +4
      caliber is sometimes good too
    3. the most important
      the most important 27 March 2016 17: 52
      +1
      Quote: Dimon19661
      Many believe that the higher the caliber, the higher the efficiency. Although this is far from always the case.

      the effectiveness of what ??? 5,45 is better at target shooting, but in battle I would choose 7,62.
    4. tso1973
      tso1973 31 March 2016 12: 29
      0
      So there is also the stopping effect of the bullet, and according to this parameter, caliber 7.62 has higher indicators than 5.45.
      1. hardroc
        hardroc 31 March 2016 14: 37
        0
        Quote: tso1973
        there is also a stopping action of the bullet and here on this parameter the caliber 7.62 has higher indicators than 5.45.

        If you mean bullets of cartridges of 5,45x39 mm and 7.62x39 mm, then everything is exactly the opposite. There are different types of bullets.
      2. The comment was deleted.
  2. Izotovp
    Izotovp 27 March 2016 07: 39
    +3
    The new ammunition is therefore comparable in terms of armor penetration because 5,45 were modernized, and 7,62 was not. If you were engaged, then now 7,62 would be better.
    In general, I'm for 6,5 * 39 Grendel fellow
    1. Igor39
      Igor39 27 March 2016 08: 01
      +2
      6.5x38 Grendel is still a purely commercial project. At 5,45, in any case, flatness is better and faster, which means less lead time when aiming.
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 27 March 2016 09: 23
        +1
        Quote: Igor39
        means lead less when aiming.

        How much? At 300 meters, the difference is half the figure, with a purely flanking movement of a running person. 2.5 for AK-74, 3 for AKM
        1. Igor39
          Igor39 27 March 2016 09: 33
          +2
          Well, depending on how fast it moves, the AK 74 is still better in accuracy.
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 27 March 2016 09: 50
            0
            3 meters per second.
          2. cap
            cap 28 March 2016 03: 52
            0
            Quote: Igor39
            Well, depending on how fast it moves, the AK 74 is still better in accuracy.


            I agree. But it's better to kill right away. hi .
        2. Droid
          Droid 27 March 2016 09: 58
          +2
          A third more. And the AKM wind drift is 300 meters 1,7 times more.
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 27 March 2016 10: 16
            +1
            It's nonsense anyway. Neither plus nor minus
            1. Igor39
              Igor39 27 March 2016 10: 25
              +9
              The weight of 100 rounds of 7,62 is almost the same as that of 200 5,45, this is also an argument, and accordingly, less metal will be consumed in production, which means economic profit.
      2. Aqela
        Aqela 27 March 2016 16: 34
        +1
        If my memory serves me right, Grendel is based on a sleeve from 7,62x39 re-crimped. So the transition to just such a cartridge looks convincing.
        Also, behind the 6,5-mm caliber says the weight of Academician Fedorov, who developed his machine specifically for such a caliber. I think that this is precisely the truth that is in the middle. However, practice is a criterion of truth. No serious comparison was made!
        1. hardroc
          hardroc 27 March 2016 17: 08
          -2
          Quote: Aqela
          If my memory serves me right, Grendel is based on a sleeve from 7,62x39 re-crimped.

          Changes
          Quote: Aqela
          So the transition to just such a cartridge looks convincing.

          Than? Why doesn't the whole "world of fools" cross over?
          Quote: Aqela
          says the weight of academician Fedorov

          Is that even an Acadic? Which consultant on small arms and a permanent member of the commission for the review of projects of new models of small arms in the People's Commissariat and the Ministry of Arms? He was very far from academics.
          And then, during his life during the Soviet period, the country managed not to create ANY more or less suitable model of light small arms. Where does the weight come from?
          Quote: Aqela
          who developed his machine specifically for such a caliber

          Well, he did not have the full knowledge of what you would do. From this and such a caliber.
          Quote: Aqela
          However, practice is a criterion of truth. No serious comparison was made!

          Gosha. And the experience of Italy, which was only in 1938. abandoned the cartridge 6,5x52 mm Carcano and weapons on it in favor of 7,35x51 mm Carcano? True, during the war the transition was not fully realized, and after the war, Italy switched to NATO cartridges.
          And the experience of Japan, which in 1939. abandoned the 6,5x51SR Arisaka cartridge (the one that Fedorov used) and the weapons on it in favor of the 7,7 × 58 mm Arisaka cartridge?
          Is this called "there was no serious comparison"?
    2. hardroc
      hardroc 27 March 2016 10: 16
      +1
      Quote: Izotovp
      In general, I'm for 6,5 * 39 Grendel

      The military of all countries does not even recognize the Chinese 5,8x42 mm. Why do they need Hryundel, which is even worse?
    3. Birdtalker
      Birdtalker April 11 2016 20: 18
      0
      Heh and back to the cartridge from Arisaki.
  3. Ze Kot
    Ze Kot 27 March 2016 11: 03
    +2
    Quote: Igor39
    in my opinion, 5,45, especially the AK 74m, shoots very closely in any mode, and the bullets remain stable for longer than 7,62, because they are heavier and write out a steeper trajectory



    5,45x39 - Bullet weight, g: 3,3-4,1
    7,62x39 - Bullet weight, g: 6,6-12,6
    1. Aqela
      Aqela 27 March 2016 16: 36
      0
      7,62x39 - Bullet weight, g: 6,6—12,6

      Where did the firewood come from? I don’t remember something behind the 43rd patron of such heavy bullets. In with "Mosinka" not beguiled?
      1. BARKHAN
        BARKHAN 27 March 2016 19: 38
        +1
        Quote: Aqela
        7,62x39 - Bullet weight, g: 6,6—12,6

        Where did the firewood come from? I don’t remember something behind the 43rd patron of such heavy bullets. In with "Mosinka" not beguiled?

        Cartridge with a bullet with a reduced speed:

        The performance characteristics of 7,62x39 US (57-3-231U with reduced bullet speed)
        Caliber, mm - 7,62
        Bullet length, mm - 33,62
        Bullet weight, g - 12,5
        Cartridge weight, g - 19,9
        Muzzle velocity, m / s - 285-300
        A low initial speed is compensated by the weight of the bullet. A low speed is needed for the operation of the PBS (silencer)
      2. cap
        cap 28 March 2016 03: 59
        0
        Quote: Aqela
        7,62x39 - Bullet weight, g: 6,6—12,6

        Where did the firewood come from? I don’t remember something behind the 43rd patron of such heavy bullets. In with "Mosinka" not beguiled?


        Bullets for the caliber 7.62 * 39, ordered by companies from the United States, if that says something to you, "for sports shooting" (completely with lead filling). Four million pieces were ordered by four companies in 2014-2016! hi
  • aszzz888
    aszzz888 27 March 2016 07: 27
    +7
    Any conclusion would be made, the author, under his own questions. The article was unfinished, cropped, without the final part. Sorry - no minus, no plus.
    1. CTEPX
      CTEPX 27 March 2016 07: 58
      -14%
      Quote: aszzz888
      Any conclusion would be made, the author, under his questions.

      Moreover, it is not clear what kind of model this AK-47 is. The one that the Americans make?
      There was no such model for AK.
      1. Dimon19661
        Dimon19661 27 March 2016 08: 08
        +10
        7,62 mm Kalashnikov-designed assault rifle (AK-47). Quick Guide Service. Military Publishing House of the Ministry of Armed Forces of the USSR. 1949 Print
        Share
        General information:

        The 7,62 mm Kalashnikov assault rifle is a powerful automatic individual small arms weapon designed to defeat enemy manpower at short ranges. It is designed for 7,62-mm cartridge arr. 1943
        http://www.ak-info.ru/ak/ak47krs49/ak47krs49.zip
        Automatic AK-47. Service Quick Guide
        1. CTEPX
          CTEPX 27 March 2016 11: 21
          -5
          Quote: Dimon19661
          Automatic AK-47. Service Quick Guide

          It's fake. In the USSR, the machine was called - AK. Next AKM)).
      2. Igor39
        Igor39 27 March 2016 08: 31
        +6
        There was such a model
        1. CTEPX
          CTEPX 27 March 2016 11: 23
          -4
          Quote: Igor39
          There was such a model

          Give yourself the trouble to analyze, at least on the Internet. There was no such model in the USSR)).
          1. Dimon19661
            Dimon19661 27 March 2016 11: 38
            +5
            AK-47 is the designation of experimental Kalashnikov assault rifles plus the first series intended for military trials. It was simply adopted a Kalashnikov assault rifle, without specifying "the 1947 model".
            1. CTEPX
              CTEPX 27 March 2016 11: 51
              +3
              Quote: Dimon19661
              AK-47 is the designation of experienced Kalashnikov assault rifles plus the first series

              It is not true)). AK-47 is the Americanized name for the Kalashnikov family. In the USSR it was not applied even at the household level until the end of the eighties. At least because of the regime of secrecy)).
              And the book you brought is a fake)).
              1. Dimon19661
                Dimon19661 27 March 2016 12: 57
                +2
                And there were five, if memory serves, prototypes called the AK-46. Is this also a fake ???
                1. CTEPX
                  CTEPX 27 March 2016 13: 04
                  -4
                  Quote: Dimon19661
                  And there were five, if memory serves, prototypes called the AK-46.

                  I think your memory is cheating on you. About the name)).
                  1. Dimon19661
                    Dimon19661 27 March 2016 13: 21
                    +1
                    And by the way, the cartridge in these samples used a different, earlier version of the M-43 cartridge - 7,62x41 mm.
                  2. Dimon19661
                    Dimon19661 27 March 2016 13: 34
                    +1
                    Drawings of his first automaton M.T. Kalashnikov introduced in early 1946 under the pseudonym “Mihtim” - all projects participating in the competition were presented anonymously to the commission. The calculations of the project were helped by Lieutenant Colonel B.L. Canel. The Commission awarded the project to Sergeant M.T. Kalashnikov second place, the first - to the project of Colonel N.V. Rukavishnikov, the third - to the project of captain K.A. Barysheva. These projects, together with the projects of G.A. Korobova, A.A. Bulkina and A.A. The Dementyev Commission recommended for the manufacture of prototypes and pilot tests.

                    According to the results of field tests conducted in May-June 1946, the Kalashnikov system, in the form of an AK-46 assault rifle, attracted the attention of specialists, however, it needed further refinement and a number of changes.
                    During the work at the NIPSMVO (Research Range of Small Arms and Mortar Weapons) in Shchurovo, the head of the testing department of the range V.F. Lyuty, representative of GAU (Main Artillery Directorate) at the training ground V.S. Deikin, test officer A.A. Malimon. At the final stage of testing in January 1947, there were three A.A. Bulkina (TKB-415), A. Kovrovtsa Dementieva (KBP-520) and Kalashnikov (KBP-580).

                    Throughout 1947, the design team created several experimental models of AK-47 assault rifles.
                    The experienced Kalashnikov assault rifle of 1947 (I emphasize the “experienced" one) underwent a significant number of upgrades.
                    1. CTEPX
                      CTEPX 27 March 2016 15: 01
                      -1
                      Quote: Dimon19661
                      Kalashnikov system, in the form of an AK-46 assault rifle

                      And nevertheless, I insist that there were no self-names AK-46 or AK-47 in the first AK models (according to Kalashnikov himself). The entire fake Internet campaign (over the past two years) to "rename" the Kalashnikov assault rifle into the American-patented name AK-47 is apparently connected with an attempt by our "partners" to avoid patent payments)).
                      1. Dimon19661
                        Dimon19661 27 March 2016 15: 06
                        0
                        Have you talked about this with Kalashnikov?
                        In your rejection, you have already forgotten the essence of the conversation. And please name the patent number.
                        And by the way, I already wrote, "The Kalashnikov assault rifle was simply adopted for service, without specifying the" 1947 model. "
                      2. CTEPX
                        CTEPX 27 March 2016 15: 11
                        0
                        Quote: Dimon19661
                        Have you talked about this with Kalashnikov?

                        Unfortunately no. But he talked with people who raised this issue during the life of the designer and at his request)).
                      3. Dimon19661
                        Dimon19661 27 March 2016 16: 18
                        +1
                        On this forum, unfortunately, there are a lot of people for whom the words of acquaintances from the words of other acquaintances are an absolute axiom. Moreover, they do not have any other evidence (.
                      4. cap
                        cap 28 March 2016 03: 49
                        0
                        I had the honor to shoot all (except for special) AKs with a Kalashnikov assault rifle harder, harder to clean (milling cutter), AK74 (I think not for a motorized gunner) is the best AKM-7.62. (Produced since 1974). The discussion is redundant.
                        Due to its greater mass and strength, the AK is still alive, Afghans value the barrel's vitality and durability. hi in modern language.
                      5. Dimon19661
                        Dimon19661 28 March 2016 07: 18
                        0
                        That is, you consider yourself the last resort ???
          2. BARKHAN
            BARKHAN 27 March 2016 19: 52
            +2
            Yes, there were AK-46 and AK-46-2 assault rifles. But only as prototypes. The AK-46 was radically different from the AK-47. The Kalashnikov assault rifle was adopted in 1949 under the name AK. That is, AK -47 is the same prototype.
            1. Dimon19661
              Dimon19661 28 March 2016 07: 17
              0
              That's what I said to my opponent.
  • Igor39
    Igor39 27 March 2016 11: 41
    0
    To read in Wikipedia?
    1. CTEPX
      CTEPX 27 March 2016 11: 56
      +1
      Type in a search engine:
      7,62 mm Kalashnikov-designed assault rifle (AK-47). Quick Guide Service. Military Publishing House of the Ministry of Armed Forces of the USSR. 1949 Print
      Compare the results. Think about it.
  • hardroc
    hardroc 27 March 2016 17: 31
    -1
    Quote: ctepx
    There was no such model in the USSR)).

    In the USSR, on the cartridge of 7,62x39 mm, 3 main models of individual automatic weapons were produced:
    1. AK-47 with DE 1936 J.
    2. AK with DE 1991 J.
    3. AKM with DE 2030 J.
    Of course, their ballistics was slightly different.
  • Aqela
    Aqela 27 March 2016 16: 37
    0
    I think so too. So, we smoked, pampered. About nothing ...
  • Mainbeam
    Mainbeam 27 March 2016 07: 33
    0
    Cool questions that you don’t think about while being at the household level,
    and which you catch purely intuitively, as when changing 7,62 to 5,45.
    .
  • cth; fyn
    cth; fyn 27 March 2016 07: 37
    +2
    And there are no answers? As it is not finished, it is not clear what the author wanted by asking these questions and what was his purpose.
    1. Pereira
      Pereira 27 March 2016 09: 24
      +7
      I can answer the 12 question.
      The RPK-74 has a heavier and longer barrel than the AK-74. When fired at an equal value of the tossing force of the barrel during recoil, the angle of displacement of the barrel at the RPK is less. Accordingly, there is less time for the fly to return to the original line of sight. Hence, a higher rate of fire with a single fire.
      This is just theoretical mechanics.
      1. karelia-molot
        karelia-molot 27 March 2016 09: 52
        +6
        In-in. While I was reading before this question, I was still lost - whether the author was very smart, or quite a stump. This question about the rate of fire and the same (although in fact there are serious differences), the automation put everything in its place)
      2. lysyj bob
        lysyj bob 27 March 2016 11: 48
        +3
        I will add - the bipod on the PKK also plays a positive role. By the way, from experience, the RPK-74 has amazing accuracy. In any case, those samples that I happened to lead to a normal battle. After the cast, they fired on a dispute over sleeves from the KPVT AT 100 meters. Hit 3-4 times out of 5. Of the AK-74 - no more than 2.
        1. Mooh
          Mooh 27 March 2016 12: 22
          +1
          Still easier. The RPK has a larger store, it needs to be changed less often fellow
      3. ssss605
        ssss605 28 March 2016 01: 09
        +1
        RPK-74 is a good machine .... for a year of use, not a single failure! .... but the SVD stuck .. once the sand hit ... well, during exercises when shooting single!
        1. cap
          cap 28 March 2016 04: 07
          0
          Quote: ssss605
          RPK-74 is a good machine .... for a year of use, not a single failure! .... but the SVD stuck .. once the sand hit ... well, during exercises when shooting single!


          I agree. The internal combustion service is a good thing only dry and cleaned. If it gets into the water without cleaning, the automation wedges. The spring must be clean, without a single grain of sand! hi
  • alex-cn
    alex-cn 27 March 2016 07: 49
    +5
    I practically did not deal with collimator sights, and therefore I cannot say how much they change the range of "effective aiming"
    And in the case of using any mechanical sight, the real range of any reliable shooting will be 400 meters (with a little, maybe). Then you can aim only "in that direction." And at the indicated ranges, the caliber does not play a special role. The only advantage of small calibers is high speed, which allows you to make big mistakes when determining the distance, well, and the ammunition load, of course, is never too much.
    1. Aqela
      Aqela 27 March 2016 16: 48
      0
      I think that it cannot be otherwise. At a distance of more than 400 meters, the enemy’s silhouette will be thinner than the front sight. All the same, that with a hood ZIL-130 on a cat to aim laughing
      I always thought it was like this: "Sighting range 1000 meters." The "mosinka" generally designated 3000 arshins (more than 2000 meters). I was very surprised until I came across an explanation that this meant salvo fire across the squares. For these purposes, the British even made special sights on the side of the barrel. fellow
      Volley firing served as a dull substitute for scarce machine guns. request sad
      1. Pereira
        Pereira 27 March 2016 20: 05
        0
        Not certainly in that way. Volley shooting was practiced when there was no machine gun yet. Do not take our ancestors as idiots.
  • Alex_T
    Alex_T 27 March 2016 07: 50
    +11
    The author has a strange way of expressing his thoughts in the form of chopped off and unrelated sentences. Some of the questions are downright stupid. To understand what the author wants to say, I read his other articles on http://vpk-news.ru/, in which the author complains about the needless write-off of the AK-47 and criticizes the subsequent modifications of the AK. The author also proposes to introduce another UMS, which: "9. A trigger, capable of providing the return of the trigger to its original position before firing. More details: http://vpk-news.ru/articles/24193", which, according to the author, will increase combat characteristics of weapons. This is where the fun begins. the trigger itself is not described. A question arises for the AUTHOR. If the trigger is forcibly returned to its original position, will the arrow's pressing finger be beaten off? Either the author does not say something or the usual insanity.
    1. cth; fyn
      cth; fyn 27 March 2016 07: 53
      +3
      And what's the point in such a trigger? I didn’t understand.
      1. alex-cn
        alex-cn 27 March 2016 07: 59
        +6
        this return has existed since the first models of mts-21, people howled from "dried" fingers.
    2. Aqela
      Aqela 27 March 2016 16: 53
      0
      Yes! Poor disconnection of the trigger and trigger is an inherent drawback of the Kalashnikov system. It is this property that people who have to shoot a lot from this "wunderwaffe" complain about: after several magazines are fired, the finger goes numb, which aggravates the low accuracy of the weapon, which is called stubbornly evil pi.ndo. AK-47 (which, as you know, has never existed, unlike the lore "AK"! lol )
  • sergo1914
    sergo1914 27 March 2016 07: 59
    +9
    Question 21. Does the author understand the difference between individual and group use of automatic weapons?
    Question 22. Does the author understand the reasons for the appearance of automatic weapons?
    Question 23. The author did not try to compare the ballistics of a rifle and an assault rifle?
    Question 23. Is there a difference in result when shooting?
    a) single shots
    b) in short (3-5 rounds) bursts
    c) long bursts

    About adjusting the rate of fire - lazily. The copies are broken - do not count.

    Question 15 - Funny. And how to press the trigger already pressed? What did the author mean?
    1. Aqela
      Aqela 27 March 2016 16: 55
      +1
      What a fickle you are, however! Maybe you also pull the triggerand not the trigger? lol good
  • Aleksandr72
    Aleksandr72 27 March 2016 08: 05
    +12
    For comparison:
    The mass of the bullet cartridge 7,62x39 is from 6,6 g. (7,62 Z (GAU Index - 57-3-231) - cartridge with incendiary bullet Z) up to 12,55 gr. (7,62 US (GAU Index - 57-N-231U) - a reduced-speed cartridge with a heavier bullet with a steel core, designed for firing with the PBS-1 silent and flameless firing device) - for most bullet range 7,62x39, the mass is 7,6 g
    The mass of the bullet 5,45x39 is from 3,23 g. (5,45 T (GRAU Index - 7T3) - cartridge with a tracer bullet T) up to 5,15 gr. (5,45 US (GRAU index - 7U1) - cartridge with a US bullet at a reduced speed)
    - for most nomenclature of bullets cartridge 5,45x39 bullet weight is 3,4 g.
    So the 7,62 mm bullet is much heavier than the 5,45 mm bullet and the advantage of the latter in the firing rate is ensured by its higher initial speed (for standard AKM and AK-74, respectively 715 m / s and 900 m / s).
    Advantages of the cartridge 5,45x39 in comparison with the cartridge 7,62x39:
    A small-caliber bullet with a high initial speed provides high trajectory flatness (compared to a cartridge of 7,62 × 39 mm, the range of a direct shot increased by 100 meters), has a good breakdown effect and significant lethal force. A small recoil momentum at the moment of the shot favorably affects the accuracy and accuracy of shooting, and a decrease in the mass of the cartridge allows the shooter to increase the carrying ammunition (200 rounds of 7,62 × 39 mm weigh as much as 300 rounds of 5,45 × 39 mm).
    The disadvantages include the tendency to ricochet (which is especially inconvenient in urban conditions, mountainous areas, confined spaces), lower armor penetration at long distances, but this applies exclusively to the first versions of the cartridge with a PS bullet (7N6 / 7N6M). In the variant with bullets PP (7N10), BP (7N22), the armor penetration is comparable with the bullets of a 7,62 mm cartridge (7,62x39) arr. 1943, and in the variant with a BS bullet (7N24), armor penetration is higher as bullets of a 7,62 mm cartridge (7,62x39) arr. 1943, and the 7,62 mm rifle cartridge (7,62x54) arr. 1908 year.
    About cartridge 7N24:
    5,45 BS (GRAU Index - 7N24) - in 1998 a cartridge with a special armor-piercing bullet BS was developed. The cartridge is designed to destroy manpower, including equipped with personal protective equipment, and lightly armored fire weapons. The BS bullet consists of a steel shell clad with a tompak shell, a blunt core made of VK8 cermet alloy based on tungsten carbide and a lead shirt. The BS bullet provides penetration of a 5 mm thick steel plate made of 2P steel at a range of up to 350 meters. The mass of the cartridge is 11,2 g. The mass of the bullet is 4,1 g. The core weighing 2,1 g is made of VK-8 tungsten-cobalt alloy. The mass of the powder charge is 1,40 / 1,46 g.
    In 2007, FKP APZ Vympel, and in 2010, the Barnaul Cartridge Plant mastered the production of a modernized cartridge 7N24.000-01, which provides penetration of armor plate 5 mm thick from 2P steel at a distance of 500 m.
    And the picture of cartridges in stock:
    1. Comrade Bender
      Comrade Bender 27 March 2016 09: 00
      0
      And what is the cost of industrial production of the 7Н24 cartridge in contrast to the standard 7,62? I did not find such data.
      1. 2nd 12th
        2nd 12th 29 March 2016 12: 35
        0
        I read somewhere that the cores are made of steel P6M5 and U12.
        These are all tool steels. A drill from U12 costs 20 rubles, the same drill from P6M5 already costs 200 rubles.
      2. Rex
        Rex 4 May 2016 12: 06
        0
        I can only call about procurement, in 2011-12.
        7,62x39 within 20-25 re.- different bullets, cartridges too
        7H06-7H10 10-15 re. 7H22 is more expensive, somewhere around 20. I haven’t seen it on 7H24, but I think at the level of 7,62.
        The bullet in H24 may be more expensive than in the same PS, but the rest is less material
    2. Severok
      Severok 27 March 2016 11: 04
      +2
      Let me amend your text: VK8 is not an alloy, composite, cermets. Tungsten-cobalt, consists of tungsten carbide and cobalt, cobalt in the amount of 8% is used for binder, is made by sintering powder under pressure.

      For those interested, tompak is a copper-zinc alloy, where zinc in the composition is not more than 10%.
    3. Aqela
      Aqela 27 March 2016 17: 03
      +1
      I always and invariably support most of your posts, which I like with reasonedness and balanced judgments. However, I strongly want to note that the gram is abbreviated as г and without a point. Reduction gr. points to grains (the English say "grains", that is, "grain"),
      Gran (from Lat. Granum - grain, grains) - an obsolete unit of mass based on the weight of medium barley grain.
      ...
      In England, the mass measurement system was based on the Troy weight system. In it, the main unit is the troy pound, 373,2417216 g. It was divided into 12 troy ounces of 31,1034768 grams. Each ounce consisted of 8 drams. Drachma was equivalent to 3 scruples. 1 scrupul consisted of 20 gran. The weight of troy grains is 64,798 91 mg.
      ...
      In the United States and Great Britain, troy gran is still used in selected areas. Marked gr.
      For example, in military affairs (mainly in the field of firearms) for measuring the mass of bullets and powder charges. As a rule, ammunition issued in Anglo-Saxon countries, the mass of bullets and gunpowder in the cartridge is expressed by an integer number of grains - you can find bullets in 54, 100, 147, 200, 220 grains, etc.
      It is also sometimes used to indicate the dosage of drugs.

      Taki yes! It is from this that the bizarre mass of the American tablet of aspirin = 320 mg originates (in fact = 324 mg, but whoever considers it with such accuracy!), I.e. 5 гр.
      hi
      PS: And the capabilities of 7N24 are very impressive! No kidding! good belay
  • DesToeR
    DesToeR 27 March 2016 08: 27
    +4
    The person who wrote this article is clearly not friendly with the Russian language. In one sentence, the denial of negation - it is sometimes very difficult to grasp the meaning of what is written. And the answer to any question that begins with the words "Is it possible to deny ..." is yes, because everything is possible, the question is with what probability.
    As is known, the power of fire (weapons) is determined by the formula: M = E * n * p, where E is the energy of the bullet at the target, n is the rate of fire, and p is the probability of hitting the target; at the same time, the dimension (energy of impact of a bullet on a target / time) indicates the amount of muzzle energy useful for the time spent.

    The author, for me personally so dull, please explain the meaning of this sentence, especially this part of it: "while the dimension (the impact energy of the bullet on the target / time) indicates the amount of muzzle energy, which is useful per unit of time."
    1. Alex_T
      Alex_T 27 March 2016 08: 35
      +3
      He wrote an article either a schoolboy, superficially familiar with the topic, or a senile with the idea of ​​fix.
  • Blondy
    Blondy 27 March 2016 08: 28
    +6
    Oh, thank God that I don’t think a damn about it.
    1. Igor39
      Igor39 27 March 2016 08: 34
      +1
      And it would be necessary, in life everything can come in handy smile love
      1. Blondy
        Blondy 27 March 2016 11: 18
        +1
        Quote: Igor39
        And it would be necessary, in life everything can come in handy

        And in the forehead ... from the SCS, about three hundred meters?
        1. Igor39
          Igor39 27 March 2016 11: 27
          +1
          Well then, I'm calm for you smile
    2. AK64
      AK64 27 March 2016 12: 23
      0
      Oh, thank God that I don’t think a damn about it.


      This should be fixed immediately.
  • Droid
    Droid 27 March 2016 08: 39
    +6
    The author has an obsession that automation should return the descent to its original position after each shot, this, in his opinion, is true automation.
  • Fullback
    Fullback 27 March 2016 08: 44
    +5
    12 question. What is taught by NSD, according to which the combat rate of fire when shooting single shots from the RPK-74 can reach 50 shots per minute, and from AK-74 - only 40, despite the fact that the automation cycle is the same?

    I think that due to the presence of a full-time magazine on RPK-74 with 45 rounds of ammunition, accordingly, less time is spent on reloading, hence 50 rounds per minute are achieved, against 40 rounds with AKs.
    1. Aqela
      Aqela 27 March 2016 17: 17
      0
      Fu! And you are "drunk"! You still remember about the weighted barrel and the bipod ... Yes, even a "bipod", for 75 cartridges ... By the way, I know that the regular one is 45, but some of my friends had to fight with enlarged magazines, like as for 120 rounds.
  • pofigist_26_rus
    pofigist_26_rus 27 March 2016 08: 58
    +3
    Quote: Igor39
    There are a lot of questions, of course, but in my opinion 5,45, especially the AK 74m, shoots very closely in any mode, and the bullets remain stable longer than 7,62, because they are heavier and write out a steeper trajectory, about penetration, then new ammunition 7n10,7. 22,7n24n7,62 are comparable to 5,45, so in my opinion 12 is a good caliber for AK XNUMX. I just don’t understand why AKM is so praised.

    You are probably familiar with AKM theoretically or, at best, at the training ground. So, in a city and in a wooded, mountainous-wooded area, ammunition of 7,62 is more preferable, because they are more stable when shooting through obstacles. And, given that the bulk of the clashes fall at a distance of 100-200 meters, and the fire is mainly conducted by individuals, the superiority of 5,45 over 7,62 is minimal. If you think that during the clash it is necessary to kill all enemies, then you are deeply mistaken. During a clash, the main task is to deprive the enemy of the ability to fight, this is most easily achieved by injuring, preferably heavily, part of the opponents, forcing them and parts of healthy fighters to leave the battle. This is not to mention that 5,45 cartridges are more prone to ricochet and, to prevent it, created a separate ammunition.
    1. Igor39
      Igor39 27 March 2016 09: 12
      +3
      The first are prone to 7n6 ricochet to AK 74, but even with them I personally set a target in front of the bush and all issued cartridges left holes in the target, for those who are most convinced of the rebound, you can offer to stand behind the bush and play a couple of bursts, see how bullets ricochet from the bushes.
    2. Droid
      Droid 27 March 2016 09: 19
      +5
      Quote: pofigist_26_rus
      So, in a city and in a wooded, mountainous-wooded area, ammunition of 7,62 is more preferable, because they are more stable when shooting through obstacles.

      5,45 is preferred. Because unlike tales, the tests showed practical equivalence of 5,45 and 7,62 when shooting through the bush.
      And, given that the bulk of the clashes fall at a distance of 100-200 meters, and the fire is mainly conducted by individuals, the superiority of 5,45 over 7,62 is minimal.

      Given that the semi-partisan wars have long been moving into combined arms combat, then 5,45 is preferable at any distance. In addition, tests of the 70s showed that when shooting at 100-250 m while standing with one’s hand at targets such as the head and chest, the AK74 machine gun is 1,3 times higher than the AKM in terms of probability of being hit. So that bikes remain bikes.
      This is not to mention that 5,45 cartridges are more prone to ricochet and, to prevent it, created a separate ammunition.

      You can also recall that the 7,62-mm machine-gun bullet is prone to ricochet and, to prevent it, created a special ammunition - 7,62 PRS.
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 27 March 2016 09: 46
        +1
        Quote: Droid
        In addition, tests of the 70s showed that when shooting at 100-250 m while standing with one’s hand at targets such as the head and chest, the AK74 machine gun is 1,3 times higher than the AKM in terms of probability of being hit

        AKM, standing off the arm, 200 meters, "at least one hit", single, medium submachine gunner: 42 head rounds, 21 chest rounds. For AK-74, respectively, 13 rounds and 7 rounds.
        1. Droid
          Droid 27 March 2016 10: 01
          +1
          This is in the absence of shooting errors.
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 27 March 2016 10: 08
            0
            In what sense?
            There is a "calculated" table.

            And in general, be careful, the AK-74 according to these figures is more accurate
            1. Droid
              Droid 27 March 2016 10: 11
              0
              In direct. No shooting errors. The distance to the target corresponds to the sight, calm, clearly, there are no pointing errors.
              1. Lopatov
                Lopatov 27 March 2016 10: 23
                0
                And how do you want?
                Received dispersion characteristics, and average. A large number of shootings of a large number of shooters. The probability was calculated from them, from it the required number of shots.

                Guidance errors here are generally not at work.
                1. Droid
                  Droid 27 March 2016 10: 46
                  0
                  In business. Because even in conditions close to real, the consumption of cartridges is more than indicated in the tables. Because in real conditions, the distance to the target does not correspond to the sight, corrections for the wind and the movement of the target do not correspond to reality - they are erroneous, well, the error of pointing in the defense is 0,5-1 thousandth.
    3. Owl
      Owl 27 March 2016 09: 36
      0
      It is also necessary to add about more shock action when a 7,62x39 ammunition bullet hits an unprotected body armor target and the possibility of using semi-sheathed (expansive "unfolds" at a slight obstacle) ammunition (sold in a hunting store), which, according to the convention, are allowed in the fight against criminals.
      1. hardroc
        hardroc 27 March 2016 10: 34
        0
        Quote: Eagle Owl
        It is necessary to add more about more shocking action when it hits an unprotected bulletproof vest target of an ammunition bullet 7,62x39

        Everything is true exactly the exact opposite.
        Quote: Eagle Owl
        which are allowed by the convention in the fight against criminals.

        Where do you get these attackers to shoot them with AKM?
        In addition, 7,62 mm bullets have approximately the same effect as expansive 5,45 mm bullets.
        1. Owl
          Owl 27 March 2016 10: 43
          +1
          For reference: a 5,45 mm bullet begins to roll, in an environment of equivalent muscle mass, after 23 centimeters, the "awl" is guaranteed to hit the enemy only if the brain, heart and spine are damaged, in other injuries the enemy is able to use a weapon or explosive device. On your second question: in the service.
          1. Droid
            Droid 27 March 2016 10: 51
            0
            After 5-7 cm, this is if the bone or dense organ does not enter.
          2. The comment was deleted.
          3. hardroc
            hardroc 27 March 2016 10: 59
            +1
            Quote: Eagle Owl
            5,45 mm caliber bullet begins to roll, in an environment equivalent to muscle mass, after 23 centimeters

            Almost immediately. See photo.
            Quote: Eagle Owl
            "awl" is guaranteed to hit the enemy only if the brain, heart and spine are damaged

            If the topic was not so sad, then I would have laughed.
            Weakly balanced 5,45 mm in terms of wound ballistics is an order of magnitude better than the classic 7,62 mm.
            Quote: Eagle Owl
            On your second question: in the service.

            You have a strange service, to shoot people. As far as I know, executioners have such a "job". I have not heard of the death penalty being practiced in Russia (judging by the flag). Where and to whom do you serve?
          4. The comment was deleted.
          5. AK64
            AK64 27 March 2016 12: 28
            0
            5,45 mm bullet begins to roll somersault, in an environment equivalent to muscle mass, after 23 centimeters,


            In fact, I had to meet this figure, 23 cm, just for 7,62. And for 4,45 - 5-6cm.

            As you understand, I did not check by personal shooting, exceptionally from instructions and the like.
          6. Aqela
            Aqela 27 March 2016 17: 35
            0
            Here, experts in military field surgery would argue with you. The speed of entry of the bullet into the carcass plays an important role. If it is much more supersonic, then two things are formed: 1) a shock wave in the tissues (the appearance of a cavity for a short time, which then "collapses"), 2) also because of this, a rather large crush zone of the surrounding is formed along the wound channel tissues that have to be removed during surgical treatment of the wound - all the same, the meat will begin to rot, and no one needs gangrene ... The low speed of a bullet gives such a zone of destruction much less, so the effect becomes close to a blow with a cold weapon.
            For comparison, look at the graphs of the flight speeds of the bullet 7,62 and 5,45. It will be quite obvious that 5,45 is much more dangerous at a distance of up to 500 meters, and then it saves 7,62 energy better, but there’s no accuracy anymore: the trajectory’s persistence is much worse ...
            Something like this ...
            PS: By the way, it is for this reason that rodent hunting screws ("varmin") are rarely used for other types of game - a light high-speed bullet tears the carcass to shreds. And the .223 NATO cartridge was made on the basis of a similar design by Remington.
            PPS: And as a reference - the textbook "Field Surgery for Medical Students", ed. K.M. Lisitsyn and Yu.G. Shaposhnikov. M .: Medicine, 1982, pp. 30-46. Chapter III. Mechanical combat injuries ... Paragraphs "Gunshot wounds" and "Surgical treatment of a gunshot wound".
            Maybe these people didn’t shoot a lot, but there’s a lot of darned shot people ... request
            1. hardroc
              hardroc 27 March 2016 17: 50
              -2
              Quote: Aqela
              military field surgeons would argue with you

              Let them argue with the compilers of small arms manuals.
              Quote: Aqela
              The low speed of the bullet gives such a destruction zone much less, so the effect becomes close to the strike with a cold weapon.

              I don't know what "high" and "low" speed is. The bullets of "small balls" are designed to "work" at a speed of NOT LESS than 500-550 m / s. And already what will be there at lower speeds, it is as lucky as anyone.
              Quote: Aqela
              It will be quite obvious that 5,45 is much more dangerous at a distance of up to 500 meters, and then it saves energy better 7,62

              Further 400-450 m is it does not matter. Since this weapon is NOT designed to defeat targets beyond the specified distance.
              Quote: Aqela
              Maybe these people didn’t shoot much, but there’s a lot of darned shot people ..

              These are their problems. The wound channels, their configuration and the area of ​​contusion of adjacent tissues in the figure are shown well and are clearly visible. The defragmentation of American bullets is also clearly visible.
    4. hardroc
      hardroc 27 March 2016 10: 28
      0
      Quote: pofigist_26_rus
      And, given that the bulk of the clashes fall at a distance of 100-200 meters

      It is when? With gang warfare? A full-fledged military battle begins at 400-450 m.
      Quote: pofigist_26_rus
      Yes, and fire, mostly single

      Who said that? Small cartridges for this are made so that the main type of fire becomes automatic. Suppose with a cutoff, but still. And for weapons in caliber 7,62, yes, single.
      Quote: pofigist_26_rus
      achieved by injuring, preferably severely, parts of the opponents, forcing them and parts of healthy fighters to leave the battle

      Young man, do not tell us "passions from the Internet." The maximum that such a fighter can count on in a real war is a regular orderly. "Movies about war" should be watched less.
      Quote: pofigist_26_rus
      This is not to mention that 5,45 cartridges are more prone to ricochet and, to prevent it, created a separate ammunition.

      You are just a collection of gossip. At least they would have known in advance why it was created.
  • MarKon
    MarKon 27 March 2016 09: 03
    0
    The fact that the AKM recoil is stronger than that of the AK-74 - that's for sure) It’s straight hit on the shoulder, if the butt is not pressed firmly
  • User_internet
    User_internet 27 March 2016 09: 10
    0
    As for penetration, the new 7n10,7n22,7n24 ammunition is comparable to 7,62, so in my opinion 5,45 is a good caliber for AK 12.

    and what is the price of new ammunition (7n10,7n22,7n24)? I will assume economically the usual 7.62 will probably be cheaper, because the 5.45 bullet consists of specific alloys.
    I just don’t understand why AKM is so praised.

    and why else praise the fact that we have a great choice. AKM-47 and AK-74M. Most AKM-47s were only seen on TV, and I’m not talking about shooting from it. I personally saw and kept the AKM only 1 time with my brother on oath in 1989, mostly ak-74 without m, and aksu-74.
  • berezinalexander
    berezinalexander 27 March 2016 09: 30
    +3
    The author of the article is raving. The 5.45 cartridge, starting from 7n10, is not inferior to 7.62 in breaking through. The huge advantage of switching to a new cartridge is a significant increase in the accuracy of fire (especially bursts), an increase in wearable ammunition by 1,5 times, an increase in lethal action due to water hammer when hit at a short distance. It is not necessary to consider developers of cartridges as idiots or wreckers, they carried out the terms of reference and made a very good intermediate cartridge. The pulse of the cartridge is reduced significantly compared to 7.62 and even less than the American 5.56.
    1. hardroc
      hardroc 27 March 2016 10: 39
      0
      Quote: berezinalexander
      and even less than the American 5.56.

      But this was a forced step. Because otherwise they could not balance the "ingenious and only correct mechanism." As a result, we received a cartridge of insufficient power. And nobody will start rearming now, it's expensive.
      1. berezinalexander
        berezinalexander 27 March 2016 11: 01
        0
        After all, they did AK 101 on the basis of the 5.56 cartridge. It is possible to reduce the return due to the use of a muzzle brake of a more complex design. And I agree with you that the power of the cartridge is insufficient. It is less than American by 300 J. A Chinese 5.8x42mm cartridge looks good against this background, but there is very little information on it. The Chinese made on its basis a whole line of weapons, including a sniper rifle and a single machine gun, although with a single machine gun they obviously went too far
        1. hardroc
          hardroc 27 March 2016 11: 17
          0
          Quote: berezinalexander
          After all, AK 101 was made on the basis of 5.56 cartridge

          Do not make me funny.
          Quote: berezinalexander
          It is possible to reduce the return due to the use of a muzzle brake of a more complex design

          Automatic weapon with a muzzle brake?
          Quote: berezinalexander
          Against this background, the Chinese cartridge 5.8x42mm looks good

          It looks disgusting. It is too long, heavy and powerful. That is why no one except the Chinese is interested in him.
          1. berezinalexander
            berezinalexander 27 March 2016 11: 36
            +1
            And what do you think stands on ak 74, if not a muzzle brake compensator. The Chinese cartridge is not particularly longer than ours and the American with a weight of 12,5 grams. And what is funny in ak 101, in addition to the quality of Izhmash products?
            1. hardroc
              hardroc 27 March 2016 11: 56
              -3
              Quote: berezinalexander
              if not a muzzle brake compensator.

              This is the USSR. There, many things were called strange names. This is actually a compensator.
              For balancing, it is better in general that there are no DTs or compensators. Then the pulses will be sharper, more stable and there will be less.
              Quote: berezinalexander
              The Chinese cartridge is not particularly longer than ours and the American with a weight of 12,5 grams.

              In fact, the weight of the bullet matters. And then, all the cartridges are "not very long". But each ham has its own criteria.
              Quote: berezinalexander
              And what is funny in ak 101, in addition to the quality of Izhmash products?

              I do not know. Estimate yourself, the recoil momentum is 4,94 kgm / s, in the case of the AK-74 it is 4,6 kgm / s. The mechanism is the same. Even RPK-74 at 4,81 kgm / s has already been used bipod.
              1. berezinalexander
                berezinalexander 27 March 2016 12: 33
                0
                USM remained unchanged, but the mass of the moving parts and the stiffness of the spring changed. AK design can be redone for almost any cartridge. In Israel, they made a galil under 7.62 NATO, though this is a bust for the machine. The Finns still use our 7.62x39 mm in their valment, and his momentum is much higher than that of 5.56.
                1. hardroc
                  hardroc 27 March 2016 12: 49
                  -2
                  Quote: berezinalexander
                  AK design can be redone for almost any cartridge.

                  Under any cartridge, you can even remake a water pipe. But this will not make it a full-fledged weapon. And it will be called self-made.
                  Quote: berezinalexander
                  In Israel, made Galil

                  Galil has long ordered to live long.
                  Quote: berezinalexander
                  The Finns still use our 7.62x39 mm in their Valment

                  Who are the Finns? What kind of "rifle" power is this?
                  Besides, as far as I know, there are only horns and legs left from the "only possible genius mechanism". Although I will not say this, I do not know for sure.
  • berezinalexander
    berezinalexander 27 March 2016 09: 43
    +2
    It is a pity that work on the 6x49 mm cartridge was stopped. In terms of power, the cartridge approaches 7.62x54r, having a recoil momentum comparable to 7.62x39 mm. The muzzle velocity when fired from a sniper rifle is 1150 m / s, and the energy when exiting the barrel is about 3300 J. The bullet has tremendous muzzle energy for its caliber and due to its small diameter it has excellent penetration. On the basis of this cartridge, a good single machine gun and even a machine gun with balanced automation could have been obtained, if the problem of barrel survivability was solved, because the cartridge is very "hot".
    1. Droid
      Droid 27 March 2016 10: 07
      +2
      The machine will not work right away for several reasons:
      1. Rifle cartridge and gunpowder in it more than 3 grams, the machine gun does not have a machine gun barrel overheating will occur very quickly.
      2. To realize all the advantages of a 6-mm cartridge, you need a 72 cm barrel, these are not automatic dimensions and even if you cut to 60 cm this is still not an automatic machine.
      3. Already at the recoil impulse of the 7,62-mm automatic cartridge, balanced automation completely loses its meaning, the recoil impulse interrupts its attempts. The recoil momentum of the 6 mm cartridge 1 kgf * s is 28% more.
      1. berezinalexander
        berezinalexander 27 March 2016 10: 36
        0
        So further research in this direction is necessary. You can use other gunpowder for a shorter barrel length, use a more effective muzzle brake, introduce a gas regulator into the design to reduce the recoil speed of the bolt frame, set a recoil buffer with a resource of at least 10 thousand. Very soon, 5.45 cartridge energy will not be enough to guarantee the penetration of modern bulletproof vests. Penetration cannot be infinitely increased only by modernizing the design of the bullet and the core material. Look at the progress in protective equipment over the past 40 years. The first armor plates didn’t have plates at all, but they were already protecting themselves from small fragments and pistol bullets, and now not everyone makes their way with a 7.62 rifle. The weight of such vests is still quite large, but progress is slowly doing its job. After ten years, the 7n24 cartridge may also be ineffective, so you need to think ahead. The task of creating a new intermediate cartridge while maintaining all its advantages is incredibly complex and requires the application of all the achievements of science and industry in the field of gunpowder, materials and weapon design
        1. hardroc
          hardroc 27 March 2016 11: 09
          0
          Quote: berezinalexander
          Penetration cannot be infinitely increased only by modernizing the design of the bullet and the core material.

          You can abandon the AK-74 in favor of weapons with balanced automation. And in return, lengthen the trunk to 500-510 mm, receiving n / s 940 m / s or 9% increase in DE. Of course, this is a half measure, it is best to refuse a 5,45x39 mm cartridge. But it will be very expensive.
          Quote: berezinalexander
          The task of creating a new intermediate cartridge while maintaining all its advantages is incredibly difficult

          Incredibly light. But very expensive for money (rearmament). In addition, under a more powerful cartridge, it is not easy to create balanced automation. Look, for now, for the not very powerful 5,45x39 mm, all competitions are held.
          1. berezinalexander
            berezinalexander 27 March 2016 11: 25
            0
            The full potential has already been squeezed out of the 5.45 cartridge. The regular army ammunition has bullets with a steel core, and the cartridges 7n24 and 7n39 are expensive to manufacture and have little distribution. Mass can only be considered 7n10 and 7n22. The warehouses are still a rampart of more ancient 7n6, but they do not work well in armor, although they inflict serious wounds on an unprotected enemy.
            1. hardroc
              hardroc 27 March 2016 11: 29
              0
              Quote: berezinalexander
              The full potential has already been squeezed out of the 5.45 cartridge.

              But what about the method I described above?
              1. berezinalexander
                berezinalexander 27 March 2016 11: 46
                +1
                Lengthening the barrel is not an option, otherwise the total length of the weapon will increase. You will need to apply the bullpup layout. All military equipment SV created for fighters with ac. The cost of replacing weapons and ammunition is not so high, because the replacement takes a long time, and the shelf life of old ammunition is limited. Let's say 20 million kalashas are stored in warehouses, the cost of a new machine gun is say $ 1000 for mass production, which means that the cost of replacing machine guns and machine guns is about $ 10 billion. Kalash at 5.45 are sent to the reserve, and 7.62 are sold on the foreign market.
                1. hardroc
                  hardroc 27 March 2016 12: 10
                  0
                  Quote: berezinalexander
                  Lengthening the barrel is not an option, otherwise the total length of the weapon will increase. Will need to apply bullpup layout

                  Well yes. And how does the M16 have a 508 mm barrel? Yes, and the SCS was 520 mm. Nothing, somehow managed.
                  Quote: berezinalexander
                  The cost of replacing weapons and ammunition is not so high, because replacement takes a long time,

                  And the weapon? Give it to "friends" all over the world again, and then shout that now AK-74 is terribly good and terribly popular, because there is a lot of it everywhere?
                  Okay, USSR. He was "rich", the people in money and other benefits, like cheese bathed in oil. But what about now when money is already being counted?
                  No, rearmament is expensive. Definitely. Therefore, you will have to somehow get out with a 5,45x39 mm defterium cartridge and a weapon on it.
                  Quote: berezinalexander
                  then the price of replacing machine guns and light machine guns is approximately $ 10 billion.

                  Nifiga yourself a trifle. To tmu, I wrote to you about contests for balancing weapons on a 5,45x39 mm cartridge. First you need to solve this issue, otherwise there is no point in making a more powerful cartridge.
                  Quote: berezinalexander
                  and 7.62 are sold on the foreign market

                  And who will buy? Who needs them, and even in commercial quantities? Unless at the price of scrap metal. So, they’ll take it.
                  1. berezinalexander
                    berezinalexander 27 March 2016 12: 43
                    +1
                    Well, Americans left m16 only to the Marines, the rest I use m4 with a barrel length of 370 mm. At the same time, they managed to squeeze 880 m / s out of such a short trunk. As for the sks, it has long been in reserve and is actively sold as an op-sks hunting carbine at fairly low prices. What hinders the sale of old acres and the active shooting of old cartridge patches during exercises and the teaching of youth in military sports clubs. The machine’s resource in the dash is not enough for a long time, so there will always be demand.
                    1. hardroc
                      hardroc 27 March 2016 12: 57
                      -2
                      Quote: berezinalexander
                      the rest I use m4 with a barrel length of 370 mm.

                      Do not fantasize, there are very few M4s in the army and they are used for special operations. By the way, they will now change to an elongated version with a barrel of 409 mm, because M4A1 is too short, and this is not an automatic machine (SMG). What will be called the army model, I do not know, but the civilian model is called Colt Expanse M4.
                      Quote: berezinalexander
                      At the same time, they managed to squeeze 880 m / s from such a short trunk

                      Why "contrived"? This is the characteristic of the cartridge, while the weapon has a reduced rate of fire. Which causes a lot of criticism.
                      Quote: berezinalexander
                      The machine’s resource in the dash is not enough for a long time, so there will always be demand.

                      How often do you go to the shooting range yourself? Well, that's it.
                      1. berezinalexander
                        berezinalexander 27 March 2016 13: 07
                        0
                        Pistols are enough for a couple of months. If the state sells old cartridges at cost, then they will shoot a lot. It is a pity that it is forbidden to sell army cartridges to citizens. Of course, it’s better not to use them on a hunt, but for post-shootings it will do.
                      2. Valera999
                        Valera999 27 March 2016 14: 39
                        +1
                        Actually, the m16 carries the same bullet from 1100 m / s
                        M4 is indeed a massive weapon in the US Army, it is not for nothing that they plan to change it for more than 1 year, but at the same time it is not even heard of M16. It is a scam on m4.
                        Barrel Ak-74 417 for m4 409 mm - the difference is minimal, both with m4 and with Ak it is possible to show equally good results at 500 meters. In M4, only the length of the grooves in the barrel changed under the m995 bullet. And the rate of fire of M4 is 800-900 rpm, of M16 900-1000 rpm, is not enough for you ??? Ak is more stable than M4 with 600 rpm bursts. Only by the economy of the M4 pulls, and a large sighting line, and then only solitary.
                      3. hardroc
                        hardroc 27 March 2016 14: 55
                        +1
                        Quote: Valera999
                        Actually, the m16 carries the same bullet from 1100 m / s

                        930 m / s
                        Quote: Valera999
                        Barrel Ak-74 417

                        415 mm
                        Quote: Valera999
                        m4 409 mm

                        368 mm
                        To go nuts. People have never guessed.
                        Quote: Valera999
                        And the rate of fire of M4 is 800-900 rpm, of M16 900-1000 rpm, is not enough for you ???

                        This is called the rate of fire.
                        Quote: Valera999
                        Only orgonomics m4 pulls

                        I agree. Orgonomics.
                      4. The comment was deleted.
          2. SiberLight
            SiberLight 27 March 2016 19: 39
            0
            There were many rumors that the 7n10 cartridge did not noticeably reduce rebound properties compared to the 7n6 cartridge.
      2. Aqela
        Aqela 27 March 2016 18: 08
        0
        All the time I am touched by all these "incredible difficulties"! The Germans made their 7,92 intermediate cartridge (more precisely, it fell into the hands of our specialists, they made it an experimental version in the mid-30s) in 1942. By the end of 1943, the 7,62x41 was ready and adopted, which after a couple of years was modified to the modern 7,62x39. Three years! It's all yours The task of creating a new intermediate cartridge while maintaining all its advantages is incredibly complex and requires the application of all the achievements of science and industry in the field of gunpowder, materials and weapon design
        I think that this is the same crap as reluctance to make serious changes and attempts to constantly stamp your UAZ-469 under different names since 1965.
        And if you remember the cartridge for "Mosinka"?
        7,62 × 54 mm R (7,62x53R, 7,62 × 54, 7,62 × 54R, 7,62 × 54 Rimmed, 7,62x54 Russian) - a unitary rifle cartridge with a sleeve with a protruding rim of 7,62 × 53,72 mm, with a total maximum cartridge length of 77,16 mm, a bullet diameter of 7,62 mm and an energy of 3990 J ....
        Appeared in 1890, in 1891 it was adopted as a cartridge for the Mosin three-line rifle.
        At first, the cartridge was produced with a blunt (rounded) bullet, which weighed 13,6 g and was 30,8 mm long, was fixed in the muzzle of the sleeve with an interference fit, later with the addition of two or three cores (so-called at that time "pokes" ).
        In 1908, a pointed bullet weighing 9,6 g was introduced in Russia, and the cartridge received the designation arr. 1908 Both blunt-pointed and pointed-pointed bullets were two-element: a lead core in a cupronickel shell.

        By the way, the cartridge of 1908 was developed according to the experience of the Russo-Japanese War of 1903-1905, i.e. for the same 3-4 years ...
        The positive experience of using the small-caliber cartridge by the Americans forced the USSR to begin work on the development of a similar automatic cartridge. Although previously there were proposals to develop a small-caliber cartridge. In 1964, a draft tactical and technical requirements for a new machine gun was compiled, and in 1967 work began on the creation of a new machine gun for a low-pulse cartridge. In the early 1970s, the development of the 5,45 mm cartridge was completed.

        Those 3-4 years ...
  • hardroc
    hardroc 27 March 2016 10: 47
    -1
    Quote: berezinalexander
    The initial velocity of a bullet when fired from a sniper rifle is 1150 m / s, and the energy when flying out of the barrel is about 3300 j.

    The question arises, but what for.
    Quote: berezinalexander
    The bullet has huge muzzle energy for its caliber and due to its small diameter has excellent penetration.

    Now it is clear. As I understand it, such a section of general army ballistics as wound ballistics passed you by. My condolences.
    Quote: berezinalexander
    On the basis of this cartridge could get a good single machine gun

    Just bad. Because of the disgusting caliber.
    Quote: berezinalexander
    and even a machine with balanced automation

    This is not possible in principle. At least for today, the maximum that could be balanced is 5,28 kgm / s recoil momentum. And even that, far from all countries that only know how to make weapons. The recoil momentum of the AKM is 7,16 kgm / s. So, a full-fledged army machine in flight.
    1. berezinalexander
      berezinalexander 27 March 2016 11: 16
      +1
      In modern conditions, breaking through a bulletproof vest is more important. At speeds of 1150 m / s and even less, injuries are explosive in nature due to hydroblow, but penetration of bulletproof vests and other obstacles is ensured at large distances. The wounded opponent is eliminated from the battle. The severity of the wounds depends on the design of the bullet, its speed at the time of impact and the pitch of the rifling. All long bullets tumble when hit by a target. Look at the American cartridge 5.56 M193. It does not have a steel core, but due to its speed it breaks the mtal plate from a short distance and causes serious injuries due to water hammer and fragmentation. Water hammer for pointed bullets is achievable only at high speeds, and fragmentation is provided by the bullet design
      1. hardroc
        hardroc 27 March 2016 11: 25
        -1
        Quote: berezinalexander
        In modern conditions, breaking through a bulletproof vest is more important.

        This is for a chest figure.
        Quote: berezinalexander
        At speeds of 1150 m / s and even less, injuries are explosive due to hydroblow, but penetration of bulletproof vests and other obstacles is ensured at large distances.

        We can agree with you "for the future." Assuming that in the future the soldier will be chained in armor from head to foot. But so far there is no such probability. And what penetrates well, it penetrates everything well. Even what is not needed. The result is a marriage, i.e. wound right through.
        Quote: berezinalexander
        Look at the American cartridge 5.56 M193

        The Americans in the army have long ceased to have these weapons and ammunition for them. Why look at him?
        1. berezinalexander
          berezinalexander 27 March 2016 11: 54
          0
          And how does the construction of a 6mm bullet differ from 5,45, except for the large mass and initial speed. The stability of the bullet on the trajectory at 6mm is higher, the correction for wind and lead is less, the injuries are hardly weaker. The disadvantages of 6mm are a large mass and a shorter barrel resource, a greater cost.
          1. hardroc
            hardroc 27 March 2016 12: 12
            0
            Quote: berezinalexander
            And how does the construction of a 6mm bullet differ from 5,45, except for the large mass and initial speed.

            It does not depend on the caliber, but on the design of the bullet. In addition, the mass and length of the bullet will definitely be greater, and this is in any way bad.
            Quote: berezinalexander
            the wounds are hardly weaker.

            It does not depend on the caliber, but on the design of the bullet.
            1. berezinalexander
              berezinalexander 27 March 2016 12: 52
              +1
              The mass of the cartridge is of course a drawback, but the cartridge weighs no more than 7.62x39mm. It is possible to use a liner made of light alloys or composites or to use a different type of gunpowder while reducing the length of the liner. This will save a few grams and make it possible to slightly increase the ammunition. I do not consider the use of sleeveless and telescopic cartridges, as it is impossible to provide good obturation and centering of the bullet in the barrel. The Americans are now developing telescopic cartridges under the LSAT program, but things seem to go no further than experiments. The Germans could not solve all the problems with g11, although the idea is very tempting.
              1. hardroc
                hardroc 27 March 2016 12: 59
                -2
                Quote: berezinalexander
                The mass of the cartridge is certainly a drawback

                I wrote about the mass of the bullet.
                1. berezinalexander
                  berezinalexander 27 March 2016 13: 14
                  0
                  Bullet weight is always a compromise between momentum and cartridge caliber. If you make the bullet too light, you will have to increase its elongation, which will complicate its stabilization in flight. For a caliber of 6 mm, this is the minimum weight of 5 grams, in addition, an increase in mass and caliber allows you to significantly diversify the range of bullets. The mass of 5.56 caliber bullets reaches 5 grams at lower speed, the new Chinese cartridge 5.8 dbp10 also has a bullet of about 5 grams
                2. berezinalexander
                  berezinalexander 27 March 2016 13: 18
                  0
                  Light bullets quickly lose track speed, as they have a small bc. The longer the bullet maintains supersonic flight speed, the higher its stability on the trajectory
                  1. hardroc
                    hardroc 27 March 2016 15: 17
                    -3
                    Quote: berezinalexander
                    Light bullets quickly lose track speed, as they have a small bc.

                    Actually, everything here is not easy. The elongation and relative weight of the bullet also matters.
                    As an example, I can say that the BC of the bullet is 5,45 mm LARGER than the BC of the bullet is 7,62 mm. This is because the 7,62 mm bullet is relatively short and light.
                    In general, of course, the cartridge is 7,62x39 mm, it is a rare freak. The second one is not easy to find, except that the German 7,92 × 33 mm Kurz - this one is even uglier. And I almost forgot the main freak, the American 7,62x33 mm Carbine. This is just the world trinity of cartridge nerds. Soviet here is in 3rd place.
                    Personally, for myself, I still have not understood the very appearance of a 7,62x39 mm cartridge and weapons on it. Those. I can not logically answer the question, what for? The incompetence of the Soviet military, this is understandable. There was a second series, with army pistols. But what about the Germans who practiced AK? They knew that the StG44 was not a full-fledged army weapon. They also knew that he was not even successful. Are they really silent? Is that all right? Very dark story, actually.
                  2. SiberLight
                    SiberLight 27 March 2016 19: 36
                    0
                    But what about the subsonic cartridges 9x39mm, SP-5, SP-6?
      2. Valera999
        Valera999 27 March 2016 14: 42
        0
        At 150 meters, 5.56 with 1100 m / s has a normal breakdown effect, further heavier bullets take precedence.
  • Dam
    Dam 27 March 2016 21: 54
    -2
    You argue with the troll. This time it has not yet been removed. This is Zeus, aka carbine, aka hardroc. Just a local blissful. Minus and do not answer. He is stubborn and talking with reason is futile.
    1. hardroc
      hardroc 27 March 2016 22: 09
      +1
      Quote: Damm
      talking reasonably is useless.

      Is it reasoned? Where did you get the arguments, the knowledge is zero. All your "arguments" are to go over the comments and make the minuses. So that you are not dipped in your face over and over again in your incompetence.
      Look above there, I copied excerpts from the NSD to you. So that you once again make sure that you don’t know.
  • chunga-changa
    chunga-changa 27 March 2016 10: 02
    +7
    "This is some kind of crap ..."
    It is not very clear what the author is trying to achieve. As he writes - "the destruction of the AK-47", i.e. AK-47 destroyed. Does he demand the revival of their production? Or bring to justice those who made the decision to destroy them? Or attract and revive?
    Well, some of the questions are just moronic.
    8 question. Why did the “Warrior”, caught up in 7,62 bullets, retaining destructive power at a distance of up to 1500 meters, have to fire back from AK-12 5,45 bullets, retaining destructive power at a distance of 1350 meters?

    Dear author, from AK that is at 1500, that is at 1350 meters you can only get into a separate, sixteen-story building. No one will simply respond to any shooting from such a distance, because they don’t even understand that someone is shooting and where, and if anyone tries, the squad leader personally gives podzhopnikov for the transfer of cartridges.
    And on effective ranges of machine guns of 50-300m, all these theoretical "shortcomings" of rate of fire and lethality do not matter, the amount of ammunition wearable and reliability of work is more important here.
    1. Valera999
      Valera999 27 March 2016 14: 50
      0
      Something you range of machines to the PP level. 50-300 m - machine guns with parabellum hit.
      automatic machines 300-550 m, I am with the AKS-74u at 300 meters on targets until the barrel is warmed up the standard issued.)))
  • Lopatov
    Lopatov 27 March 2016 10: 04
    +1
    It seems that the author did not read the introductory part of the shooting tables.

    7 question. How could the reduction in XK of the 5,45 bullet lead to smaller — compared to the 7,62 bullet — probable deviations indicated in the firing tables?


    There are no bullet dispersal characteristics. There are no ammunition dispersion characteristics. There are not even dispersion characteristics of specific samples of small arms.
    There are characteristics of dispersion of "complexes" machine gun + the best machine gunners and machine gun + medium machine gunners when firing from the statutory positions for shooting.
  • demiurg
    demiurg 27 March 2016 11: 23
    +1
    Disperse all army institutes and academies. But the man asked questions, he himself answered them, everything is simple and intelligible.
    I sometimes get overwhelmed by ideas too, but I won’t ask questions and move claims to the Ministry of Defense, why a 25mm caliber grenade launcher with a 3-4-round magazine has not been adopted. In my fantasies, it seems to me like a superweapon, but I don’t have to run with it, I just came up with it :))
    Spring however.
    1. berezinalexander
      berezinalexander 27 March 2016 11: 30
      0
      What is needed is not a grenade launcher, but a weapon similar to the American xm25 with controlled detonation. Small caliber unguided grenades are ineffective due to their small fragmentation effect.
  • Shark Lover
    Shark Lover 27 March 2016 11: 40
    +1
    AKM, AKMS. Shoot more comfortable with the AK-74. At the AKM, from under the receiver’s cover, when fired, a lot of crap flies into the eyes, when firing from the parapet, respectively the ground, and with any compensator on the barrel. fact. Why they were preferred by more than AK 74. True, it was a long time ago, now it’s not, probably. The main armament of the bearded AKM, and with a Chinese cartridge with an explosive bullet. With a long stay far from the bases, it is easier to replenish the BC. A big plus is the presence of PBS, stuffed it in your pocket, took a couple of stores to it, and if necessary screwed it to the trunk. With PBS shooting is a pleasure, you put the forend in the palm of your hand, the turn is 30-40 meters, everything is on the plate, there is practically no return. PBS sighting is somewhat problematic, replacing the obturator and shoot at a new one.
    Regarding the accuracy of the shooting, it happened that he stumbled for 400, and it happened that he missed 50, and with that, with one, with the second machine gun, there is more of the shooting circumstance and the preparation of the fighter.
    For me, both are good, for certain circumstances. Kalash, there is Kalash!
  • 2s1122
    2s1122 27 March 2016 11: 50
    +2
    I’ve got something wrong, I re-read this article about two times and again the same transfusion from empty to empty. Do you see repeating for too gifted individuals?
  • berezinalexander
    berezinalexander 27 March 2016 12: 02
    0
    In addition to the machine-cartridge complex, it would be nice to develop a new pistol and pp for a low-momentum cartridge similar to the Belgian 5.7x28m. The mass of the cartridge compared to 9x19 mm is half as much with comparable power. Killing and punching action above. The Belgians, Chinese and Germans went on an interesting path, though the Germans didn’t work out with a pistol.
    1. Aqela
      Aqela 27 March 2016 18: 43
      0
      Well, yes, the power of the shot at 5,7x28 and 9x19 is quite comparable. Just what are you talking about when reporting about "lethal action"? If about the "stopping action", then just the 9-mm is better. Let me remind you that this is the reason for the transition from the TT cartridge 7,62x25 to 9x18 PM. Less power, but more stopping action. And at a distance of 5-25 m, this ability is important. If you don’t knock out the foe, then in another second he will "hoot" you ... With a small stopping action, you will need to drive several bullets into the enemy's carcass. The best thing here is 12-gauge buckshot ... request Even a boar can persuade ...
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. hardroc
        hardroc 27 March 2016 19: 11
        -1
        Quote: Aqela
        If about "stopping action", then just the 9-mm is better.

        You do not understand the essence of "small" cartridges. Their bullets are not classic. Therefore, they have a higher penetrating and stopping effect. For example, the OD of the SS190 bullet cartridge 5,7x28 mm is three times larger than the bullet of the 9x19 mm cartridge. So they write in reference books, I did not count it, laziness, I think they are lying. Usually a threefold effect is observed in terms of the same classic bullet with the same ballistics. A 5,7mm bullet will be clearly worse than a 9mm bullet, so the total effect will be 1,5-2 times greater. Because of this, it is not entirely clear to adopt the 9x19 mm cartridge and the PYa pistol for it. No, compared to the PM, this is just a leap forward. But why was this done when it was possible to jerk faster and further? Unclear.
        Quote: Aqela
        Let me remind you that this is precisely the reason for the transition from the TT cartridge 7,62x25 to 9x18 PM

        The OD of the TT bullet is approximately 2,5% higher than the OD of the PM bullet.
  • Slippery
    Slippery 27 March 2016 12: 39
    +4
    The case when you learn more from the comments than from the article.
  • MRomanovich
    MRomanovich 27 March 2016 13: 35
    +1
    There is something sensible in the article, but much is frankly ridiculous. Maybe I just didn’t understand the author or he didn’t formulate his thoughts that way. But this is not the main thing. The main thing is that each such article generates a bunch of comments and debates about what is better or worse, but all this is only speculation, dreams, and sometimes an empty idle talk. To switch to a new caliber there is little desire and scientific justification for improving performance. We need political will and an example from potential adversaries. Do not rely on a purely volitional transition to a new caliber without anyone else's example. But if potential opponents massively switch to a new caliber and if they decide at the top that we are not worth lagging behind them, then the issue will be resolved without any problems. It is immediately determined what is better or worse. As for the current calibers, I would not want to get a bullet from any of them. Pah-pah-pah, but in which case I will be more or less on the drum.
    1. tracer
      tracer 27 March 2016 17: 12
      0
      Through snapping bullets on the asphalt from house to house, you can risk running across. Through the tearing pieces of asphalt, the bullet track does not want to and think about it ....
      But this is not what I mean. Reducing the caliber in a light shooting process is natural
      . Weapon science is evolving. This can explain such a variety of calibers in small arms.
    2. tracer
      tracer 27 March 2016 17: 12
      0
      Through snapping bullets on the asphalt from house to house, you can risk running across. Through the tearing pieces of asphalt, the bullet track does not want to and think about it ....
      But this is not what I mean. Reducing the caliber in a light shooting process is natural
      . Weapon science is evolving. This can explain such a variety of calibers in small arms.
  • Old warrior
    Old warrior 27 March 2016 17: 15
    +1
    I always believed that the larger the caliber, the greater the propellant powder charge, the greater the range: the statement that the AK-74 bullets fly farther than the AKM bullets puzzled. I had AKM in the army - an excellent automatic machine reliable, powerful and accurate.
    1. hardroc
      hardroc 27 March 2016 17: 37
      -2
      Quote: Old Warrior
      the statement that the AK-74 bullets fly further than the AKM bullets puzzled.

      Judging by the NSD range of a direct shot at the chest figure:
      1. AK - 350 m.
      2. AK-74 - 440 m.
      Quote: Old Warrior
      I had AKM in the army - an excellent automatic machine reliable, powerful and accurate.

      In fact, it’s not very reliable (but for the Soviet level, very reliable), weak (not an army, but an assault, that is, a weakened army rifle) and not at all well-aimed (just look at the shooting table). False sensations were formed by propaganda. They are still very powerful. Just read the comments on this page.
  • Shadowcat
    Shadowcat 27 March 2016 18: 18
    0
    What is the stuffing then? thousand questions and not one answer. Which TopVar has become a forum?

    P.S. Most touched by comments.
  • SiberLight
    SiberLight 27 March 2016 19: 32
    0
    Yes, 5.45x39 is a normal cartridge, but for what they praise the AK-12 is really a serious question ...
  • acetophenon
    acetophenon 28 March 2016 00: 35
    0
    After the first question about the fly, I realized that this was a provocation of sracha. After the 8th, I realized that the provocateur couch military.
  • leon
    leon 28 March 2016 06: 53
    0
    People !!! When you finally understand, the main thing is the ammunition. As I understand it, no one is going to change it. And we have a lot of automatic machines, and much better than our beloved AK (AKM). Everything rests on the loot. If at least everyone is writing now brothers sent to the development and implementation of a new cartridge 10 rubles, one would already have at least 1-10 types of new machines ... And today, Abakan is the best, but expensive. So long live Kalash !!!
    1. Dimon19661
      Dimon19661 28 March 2016 07: 24
      0
      Abakan is not so expensive as it is not intended for the draft army. AK is a weapon that absolutely forgives the operator’s mistakes (arrow), a weapon that does not require proper care. With ABAKAN this will not work, the shooter should be at least a small fraction, but a professional.
      1. leon
        leon 28 March 2016 07: 43
        0
        Given the fact that we will soon switch to contract service (I want to believe in it), I hope that the professionalism of our soldiers will be rewarded with good personal small arms. I did not even see the new AK alive, but I am sure that he did not get rid of childhood diseases. In addition to amazing simplicity and reliability, I want the same amazing accuracy and slaughter. But this is not yet.
  • Arjuna
    Arjuna 28 March 2016 08: 09
    0
    Unfortunately, other factors affecting the shooting are not taken into account.
    1. Stable or unstable position (lying, standing, in motion, standing on the head).
    2. environmental conditions (rain, snow, wind, city, field, forest, etc.)
    3. The situation on the battlefield. (offensive, counter fire, dashing drape, etc.)
    4. The size hit the fighter (I’m sure that the one who shot 10000 shots from unstable positions will have more advantages, even with a berdanka, than the one who shot his 10 (at best) AK-rounds on the course of a young soldier 74).
    5.Psychological state (the absence of diarrhea and yeast in 6 limbs is welcome)
  • Recoil
    Recoil 28 March 2016 16: 26
    +2
    The author considers himself smarter than GAU.
    I do not comment.