Slaughter something prettier (Part of 5)

- Bambarbiya! Kirgood!
- What did he say?
“He says that if you refuse, they will ... kill you.” Joke.
- Joke!
("The Caucasian Captive, or Shurik's New Adventures")

The appearance on the screen of the unforgettable trinity (the scene in a restaurant) always causes laughter with the way Skill, Experienced and Balbess skillfully shared their national Caucasian costume, including the dagger. Well, yes, after all, what a mountaineer without a dagger, but here he hangs right on his belly and ... nothing is visible behind him. Meanwhile, this is a most interesting example for military psychology: clothes are enemy, the war with the enemy goes from 1817 to 1864 for a year and, nevertheless, both clothes and weapon this enemy is becoming so popular that they are worn by officers of the regular Russian army and the Cossacks. The name of outerwear - Circassian - indicates its specific origin and ... nothing!

Here it is - Kama, at the belt of Byvaliy ...

True, here we can say that there were after all the highlanders loyal to the White Tsar, and that His Majesty the Imperial escort at the time of these almost all consisted of the Highlanders of the Caucasus and was dressed in his national uniform! Obviously, perfection is “guilty” in many ways. The perfection of clothes, the perfection of drafts (from the Adyghe / Circassian "seshkhue" or "sashho" - "big" or "long knife"), the perfection of the dagger - kama, included in the set of weapons of the mountain warriors - that's what made all of them use their opponents. Although, the beauty of this weapon also played a significant role.

Dagger 1845 France. The beauty of the scabbard and skillfully made handle, of course, make an impression. But, how to hold such a dagger in your hand? Los Angeles County Museum of Art.

It is here that we come to the eternal topic: beauty and expediency. “And the dung basket is a wonderful item,” said Socrates, “and the golden shield can be ugly if the first one is done perfectly for its purpose and the second is bad!” That is, it is obvious that there are more harmonious weapon samples, including with regard to decorations than others. In some embellishments prevail and then it is no longer a weapon or almost no weapon, in others rude utilitarianism of a kitchen knife or an equally vulgar "beauty" of a prison "finca" prevails, but the third is just what we denote by the notion of harmony . In such a weapon together practical feasibility and decoration, and as a result we have the aesthetic perfection of the product. And here, perhaps, the best sample than the Caucasian Kama simply can not be found!

The Indian "dyke" dagger zafar after the XVIII - XIX centuries. Length with sheath 57.5 cm; without sheath 47.6 cm; blade width 3.3 cm; weight 348.7 g; 201.3 scabbard weight Metropolitan Museum, New York. In the collection of the museum from 1935. As you can see, Hindus, too, were able to produce straight blades, actively used themselves, and skillfully decorated such daggers. Metropolitan Museum, New York.

Here again, we turn to the theory, and she says that the eternal confrontation between the West and the East gave rise to two types of blades: the piercing straight lines (the weapon of the West) and the chopping “curves” (the weapon of the East). The Romans, who used the tactics of disciplined legions and understood before others, that it was better to prick than to chop - no need to brandish! That is why, for example, in the British cavalry in 1908, they again introduced a piercing sword, widely used in the First World War. However, the curved blade is not a hindrance to the rider, as it inflicts very deep incised wounds. Another thing is that it should not be too curved so as not to lose its piercing functions. Examples are the Japanese katana and, again, “our” piece, with which you can chop and prick!

Dagger Landsknehtov XVI. Louvre Paris. It seems to be a very functional blade, designed to break through the chain mail. But you only imagine how his handle lies in your hand, and how you act to them? Although the sheath, yes, the sheath is very beautiful.

As for the dagger, it is proved that the blow from top to bottom is the strongest. The curved blade in this plan loses the stronger than it is curved!

And here again, it was the Highlanders of the Caucasus who decided the issue of choosing the best weapon, armed with a curved sword and a straight dagger. The first is best to chop at a gallop, the second - to stab the enemy in melee, although a long and durable blade allows you to apply kama and slashing blows. That is, it is truly a universal weapon!

Typical dagger Kama beginning of the XIX century. Steel, gold, silver, mobile. Length with sheath 53.3 cm; length without sheath 50.6 cm; blade length 38.1 cm; blade width 3.3 cm; weight 382.7 g; 240.9 scabbard weight Metropolitan Museum, New York.

And now a little about the role of kama in stories national ... literature. After all, it was Kama who hung on the Circassian belt from N.S. Martynov and it is thanks to her that Lieutenant M.Yu. Lermontov called him "a savage with a big dagger" or "a mountaineer with a big dagger" or simply "Mr. Dagger." The “defenders” of Mr. Martynov usually say that Lermontov supposedly “himself ran into a duel” with his endless mockery. He mocked, mocked, well, and the complement of man. However, Martynov was by no means without sin — he grew enormous sideburns for himself, and used to appear in a Circassian costume with an exorbitant size with a dagger, in a white hat, with a grim and silent look.

Kama XVIII - XIX centuries. Become, horn, wood, leather, silver. Length with sheath 51 cm; length without sheath 49.1 cm; blade length 35.6 cm; blade width 3.8 cm; weight 328.9 g; 87.9 scabbard weight Metropolitan Museum, New York. In the museum collection with 1935

It is fair to say that Martynov used to go in the form of the Grebensky Cossack regiment. But at the time of the ill-fated quarrel in the house of the Versilins, he was retired and therefore "made various free additions to her." So, he was dressed in white Circassian and black velvet or silk beshmet, or, conversely, wore a black Circassian and white beshmet. In rainy weather, he covered his head with a black hat instead of white. The sleeves of the Circassian rolled up, which gave "his whole figure a bold and defiant look."

Here he is, "Monsieur Dagger" - Mr. N.S. Martynov.

That is, he behaved like a ... modern and not very clever demob, well, but then veils were talking about such people! Martynov, of course, understood that, handsome, tall, looks spectacular, but like every stupid person was prone to posturing. Here Lermontov's hand itself stretched to a pencil to capture such a colorful figure ...

Here, for example, drawing M. Yu. Lermontova: Martynov enters Pyatigorsk. Around the ladies, struck by its beauty, and with the ladies, "and the entering hero ... were remarkably similar." Under the picture signature: "Mr. Dagger enters Pyatigorsk."

"Highlander" - watercolor Lermontov times.

There is another drawing. On it, Martynov, with a huge dagger, literally from the belt to the ground, talks with a miniature Nadya Verzilina, who also has such a small “ladies'” dagger on her belt.

Kama in silver sheath XIX centuries. Steel, horn, silver, mobile. Length xnumx; length without sheath 55.4 cm; blade length 51.4 cm; blade width 37.8 cm; weight 5.4 g; 445.1 scabbard weight. An interesting feature of blade profiling: at the heel are two broad lobes, and then four narrow (front side). On the back side, two broad and two narrow dale reach the narrowing of the blade. Metropolitan Museum, New York. In the museum collection with 394.1

It is possible that if this ill-fated dagger was not at Martynov (“it is not clear who is attached to whom: Martynov to the dagger or dagger to Martynov!”) The fatal duel would not have happened, and the poet Lermontov for many years worked in the field of Russian poetry and prose , but ... it was precisely between them that the “big dagger” rose, and this dagger turned out to be, ironically, a mountain Kama perfect in all respects!

Here, in this drawing room in the house of the Verzilins in Pyatigorsk, the fate of the great poet was decided.

Unique kama with a wavy blade of the XIX century. Steel, silver, enamel. Length with sheath 54.9 cm; length without sheath 52.1 cm; blade length 39.4 cm; blade width 3.4 cm; weight 436.6 g; 354.4 scabbard weight Metropolitan Museum, New York. In the museum collection with 1935

As for the history of the Kama itself, the name of this dagger comes from the Abkhaz aҟam; and Kabardino-Circassian Kam'e, that is, it came to us from the Abkhaz-Adyghe languages. The blade is traditionally long from 30 to 50 cm, straight and double-edged. On the blade can be dol, and the valleys relative to each other can be located asymmetrically, which, of course, increases its rigidity. The cross section of the blade - lenticular or rhombic. The narrowing of the blade to the edge smooth. The handle is narrow, has no crosshairs, the top is massive. Attached to the dagger sheath, which are usually worn on the belt with a set.

As you can see, there are no rules without exceptions. Here is the Kama, but with a curved blade and no valleys, XIX century. Steel, leather, wood, silver. Length with sheath 45.2 cm; length without sheath 43.8 cm; blade length 31.8 cm; blade width 4.3 cm; weight 280.7 g; 79.4 scabbard weight Metropolitan Museum, New York. In the museum collection with 1935

Depending on the region, Kama has its own, so to speak, national peculiarities. So the Azerbaijani blade has a blade ornamentation by its distinctive feature. At the same time, both vegetable and geometric patterns can be used in the ornament, as well as characteristic Muslim ornaments - arches, winding branches with stylized leaves rarely placed on them. Also used carved ornament.

Kama in the style of bebut with a blued blade of the XVIII - XIX centuries. Steel, horn, wood, brass, silver, textiles. Length with sheath 27.8 cm; length without sheath 27.1 cm; blade width 2.9 cm; blade weight 268 g; 31.2 scabbard weight Metropolitan Museum, New York. In the museum collection with 1935

Armenian Kama has a head of elongated outlines, which gives it the shape of a typical eastern arch. Popular is the decoration of scallops in the form of tulips, which are placed on the handle and on the sheath. Gold and silver notches are often used simultaneously.

Georgian Kama adorned with corals of the XIX century. Steel, silver, corals, gold. Length xnumx; length without sheath 61.3 cm; blade width 58.6 cm; weight 5.7 g; 516 scabbard weight Metropolitan Museum, New York. In the museum collection with 249.5

Georgian Kama has a short and wide blade, besides there are caps with edges cut out in the shape of flower petals on the handle. The blades of Georgian daggers are usually decorated in the middle part with patch welding plates, and their heels can have figured through cuts bordered with a gold or silver notch. Silver finish handles and scabbard made a solid floral or floral patterns in blackening technology with engraving, as well as with gilding. Dagestan daggers have a very elongated head of the handle. In this they look like Armenian daggers. But the daggers of masters from Dagestan were considered at all times, and even now they are considered the best in the Caucasus. They are also called "Kubachinsky" by the name of the village where they are produced.

Kubachi Kama, Dagestan, XVIII - XIX centuries Steel, wood, silver, mobile. For the length of the 56, see Metropolitan Museum, New York.

The first thing that catches your eye when you consider such a dagger is the perfect ratio of the length of the blade itself with the width and also with the dimensions of the handle - not too big and not too small. In addition, their blades are usually made according to the Lezgin model - with the valleys shifted relative to each other. This design gives the greatest rigidity to the blade and makes it the easiest. In the valleys, etching often makes a pattern that copies the pattern that occurs in welding steel.

Kama office XVIII - XIX centuries. Steel, horn, wood, leather, silver. Length xnumx; length without sheath 51 cm; blade length 49.1 cm; 35.6 width cm; weight 3.8 g; 328.9 scabbard weight Metropolitan Museum, New York. In the museum collection with 87.9

The space between the valleys and the blades is usually crowned with wide dark stripes, which gives the blade a completely unusual look. The heads of the arms are also elongated, or they repeat the shape of the head of the so-called official sample adopted in the Russian Cossack units, especially in the statutory - daggers of machine-gun commands and bebuts of artillerymen. The decoration technique is similar to the traditional Kubachi decoration technique of any metal products.

The Lezghian dagger is a kind of Dagestan dagger, but the Khevsur dagger is similar to the Georgian dagger, but the details of the handle and scabbard are made of brass or iron, and are decorated with a simple ornament that is made with a copper notch.

Dagger XVIII century. Cleveland Museum of Art.

So perfection is perfection, beauty is beauty, and it is Kama that turned out to be the straw that, as they say in the East, broke the camel's back. That is, played a fatal role in the fate of Lermontov and Martynov ...

Comments

[Vladimirets]

"However, Martynov was by no means without sin - he had grown huge sideburns for himself, and used to appear in a Circassian costume with an exorbitant dagger, in a white puffed-up hat, with a gloomy and silent look."

Yes, "sin" is strong.

[kalibr]

For us - yes. Well, the man dressed like that! But at that time it was possible to end up in Petropavlovka for the fact that a man donned his own uniform due to drunkenness. with other people's orders. Both dress and appearance were treated with great importance. That is, if a person opposed himself to society, then he had to represent something of himself, and if he did not? Lermontov did not receive a cross for fighting the Chechens only because he was not in a uniform, but in a red flannel shirt, and the tsar found out about this and wrote at the performance: Do not give Lieutenant Lermontov a cross because it is worn on his uniform, but it was noticed that he worries him ! ". So the liberties of appearance were then considered a real sin.

[Vladimirets]

Quote: kalibr

But at that time it was possible to get to Petropavlovka because a man donned his uniform by drinking. with other people's orders

This is a bit wrong, even now it is prohibited.

Quote: kalibr

in a red flannel shirt

Incorrect comparison, don’t you?

Quote: kalibr

So liberties of appearance then were considered as a real sin.

Many officers who served in the Caucasus at that time (if not all of them) wore Circassian coats, hats, etc., including Lermontov himself. So Lermontov's "special attention" to Martynov was apparently due only to personal enmity. Moreover, Lermontov focused mainly on the large, in his opinion, Martynov's dagger, how can we not recall psychology and subconscious symbols. Well, I joked once about his appearance, but Lermontov, as they say now, just got it with jokes. And taking into account the ingenuity and talent of a genius, few people could endure this for a long time, which led to the tragedy.

[kalibr]

Quote: Vladimirets

Many officers who served in the Caucasus at that time (if not all of them) wore Circassian coats, hats, etc., including Lermontov himself. So Lermontov's "special attention" to Martynov was apparently due only to personal enmity. Moreover, Lermontov focused mainly on the large, in his opinion, Martynov's dagger, how can we not recall psychology and subconscious symbols. Well, he joked once about his appearance, but Lermontov, as they say now, just got him with jokes. And taking into account the ingenuity and talent of the genius, few people could have endured it for a long time, which led to the tragedy.

Here you are absolutely right that Freud was remembered and so on. But he got many. What do you want - if growth has let us down.

[Sweles]

it can be seen from these daggers that the iron is of rather poor quality, in almost all pictures, shells, cavities, and the wavy dagger steel apparently is not completely penetrated ...

[alex-cn]

But this is in vain ... Caucasian steel had very decent combat properties, but it was not stainless. Caucasian blades with the "wolf" brand were also appreciated by the Russian Cossacks (line troops were supposed to have service weapons). This brand was even forged in Zollingen, for better sale in the east ...
Even now, stainless steel does not reach the hardness and ability to hold the edge to the best knife rusting steel.

[Sweles]

Turkish dagger, damask steel 19v steel uniform without defects - this is high quality

Quote: alex-cn

But this is in vain ... Caucasian steel possessed very good

You expressed this protest for general reasons? and you don’t believe your eyes? Even very worn blades in the pictures even do not hide the caverns, which means that the unevenness - lack of steel - is deep, and this is poor quality ...

[Sweles]

however, this Turkish dagger was not flawless, in other pictures it is clear that the steel has slight defects ...

[Mordvin 3]

Alex, about hardness - it's a matter of taste. For example, I do not like such steel because of fragility.

[Sweles]

Quote: Mordvin 3

Alex, about hardness - it's a matter of taste. For example, I do not like such steel because of fragility.

well, it is clear what kind of special you are, where does the "fragility and hardness"? the iron is UNTESTED, so there will be no high quality from the beginning, and "hardness and fragility" is achieved by hardening the blade, you would be ashamed to write this on a military forum ...

here’s a piece of the Markovic family of 18c, it is clear that steel without caverns is of high quality ...

[alex-cn]

for safety - a lot depends on where it was stored and how, most of the Caucasus was kept anyhow for the last 100-150 years = how, or even in the ground.

[Glot]

for safety - a lot depends on where it was stored and how, most of the Caucasus was kept anyhow for the last 100-150 years = how, or even in the ground.

Absolutely right !
And who judges the quality of steel from the photo? Only a sofa specialist.
True, depending on where, how and how much the item was stored.
I remember the bayonet from Enfield in 1914 was raised, in a collapsed shed, more precisely in what was left of it. It was wrapped in oiled burlap. Saved almost perfect! And earthen, the same Mauser bayonets were raised, already from WWII, there is rot, and rust and caverns. Everything depends on the place, on the ground, on what lies.

[Sweles]

Quote: Glot

I remember the bayonet from Anfield 1914 release raised in a collapsed shed

you, like Ostap Bender, who dumped everything he knew about furs, as well as about silkworm cocoons, all in a heap and only hehe ...

[Nagaibak]

Sveles "you are like Ostap Bender, who dumped everything he knew about furs, as well as about silkworm cocoons, all in a pile and just giggle ..."
You didn’t understand that elementary thought which Comrade Glot tried to convey to your unencumbered brain. And this is understandable.))) It’s just that a person explained to normally thinking people, and not to people with problem thinking.))) Elf worship, you know, does not contribute to normal thinking. Heh heh heh ...

[Mordvin 3]

I wrote not about the pictures, but generally that everyone has their own taste, what steel to use. Alex wrote about the hardness of steel, it occurred to me to compare who prefers knives and which ones. Hit the topic, I repent.

[alex-cn]

hardness = fragility? But what about damask sabers with a hardness of 63-65 units wrapped around the belt? how did the Toledo craftsmen, proving the quality of their skew blades, deliver them to the customer bent into a ring?

[Mordvin 3]

I meant stainless steel. I apologize for the confusion.

[Glot]

But what about damask sabers with a hardness of 63-65 units wrapped around the belt?

For some reason, I doubt very much that it is a damask blade, and it is precisely such hardness that can be wrapped around the belt.

[alex-cn]

I will not argue, but it seems to be reading about Damascus. but please - draw the sword belt urumi

[alex-cn]

http://server4.rusdamask.ru/wp-content/uploads/wpsc/product_images/sudak-bol-dam
ask-beresta-4.jpg
here they mock at modern Damascus loin.

[cth; fyn]

. Even now, stainless steel is not up to hardness

ELMAX steel, knives from it reach up to 60-65 units according to the express method.

[alex-cn]

I agree, but elmax, this is another generation of steel - powder, and this is a completely different story ...

[cth; fyn]

Although it is powder and a different generation, but still it is stainless steel. Progress is underway, everything is changing, metallurgy is developing.

[Warrior Hamilton]

Thirty years ago, in one scientific and technical journal, I read an article about "famous Caucasian steels" and their gourde-type minting. They appeared in the Caucasus in the 18-19th centuries. Europe sold these steels, i.e. those who were handshake with the Turks -England, France and Germany. They also sold steel products by orders produced in factories. Factory products were branded. Branding of products was transferred to local soil. The action is as old as the world. The Chinese use this to this day. The brought products were reforged "for themselves", and the brands were preserved or forged. There were also craftsmen who forged their own, high-quality weapons (from the brought steel), for example - Kubachi .. and branded them with their brands. Turkey and the Caucasus were not engaged in steels ... In short, the topic is long and interesting ...

[alex1966]

Dear Alex-SP, I don’t know how old you are (judging by the aplomb with which you talk about things that you don’t understand - a little)? First: the brand is not "wolf", but "top", originally from Passau (Solingen, Germany) and it has been known since the 13th century! In view of the good fighting qualities of blades with this stigma, it was really forged in the Caucasus since the 19th century, not the other way around! (See VNPopenko "Edged weapons. Encyclopedic dictionary", Moscow, 1996, Ed.
"Boguchar", p. 49, E. G. Astvatsaturyan "weapons of the peoples of the Caucasus. History of weapons",
Moscow-Nalchik, 1995, "Hobbitbook". If THESE are not authorities for you, then WHO else ?!
Secondly: "stainless steel does not hold out ...", forgive me - which ones? Knife stamps
tens of steels. I urge you to tighten the educational level ...

[Warrior Hamilton]

Interesting! I find and read. Thanks for the info !

[alex-cn]

Yes, I admit. I got lost in my old age ... apparently the "Caucasian top" left me ...

[Warrior Hamilton]

The main thing is that life is beautiful and amazing, colleague! And we are present at this holiday!

[Yura]

Quote: Vladimirets

Yes, "sin" is strong.

Yeah, about like our dudes.

[alex-cn]

Today on the day of weapons, immediately pleases, at least two interesting articles.
Question to the author. In Russia, and perhaps in Russia, has long existed a hunting dagger with a Turkic? the name kalga, very close in appearance to kama, is there a connection, or is it just parallel development?
PS I took a closer look at the hilt of the Landsknecht dagger - but didn’t they hold it like a poke knife, with an emphasis on the top of your hand?

[kalibr]

I don’t know, I can’t say anything, especially about the Landsknecht dagger. But the idea is interesting. After all, armor pierced them, and such a blow requires strength.

[Vladimirets]

Quote: kalibr

After all, armor pierced them, and such a blow requires strength.

And it was easy to pull him by such a hilt.

[abrakadabre]

Normally, everything is there with the convenience of retention. The principle is the same as in the swords of the early Middle Ages - carolings: a short (tight) hilt + massive (or wide) guards and tops. Due to this, when squeezing the handle, the palm as if wedged between the guard and the top. This contributed to the strong retention of the blade during strong impacts.

[Ingvar 72]

Quote: alex-cn

I looked closely at the hilt of the Landsknecht dagger - but didn’t they hold it like a poke knife, with an emphasis on the top of your hand?

Probably. Also drew attention to this.

[otto meer]

Quote: alex-cn

I looked closely at the hilt of the Landsknecht dagger - and didn’t they hold it like a poke knife, with an emphasis on the top of my hand

No, he was held in a rather specific grip. The thumb along the blade, the index covers the arm of the guard, the middle one can also be, or maybe with the others behind the handle. Described probably confused, if interested find von Winkler there is well drawn.

It seems that the blade is very functional, designed to pierce chain mail.

Quote: kalibr

After all, they pierced armor, and such a blow requires strength

They didn’t pierce armor (especially chain mail - it was very rare at that time), they stabbed them in the joints between the plates and this does not require much power, but requires good control.

[Mera joota]

Quote: alex-cn

Today is the day of weapons, happy

You also noticed, JUST A HOLIDAY WHAT! caps stuck ...

[saygon66]

- I dare to suggest: Landsknecht's dagger was used as a "misericordia" ... For finishing off.
- The needle tip of the dagger was inserted into the gap between the plates of the armor (the hole was taken) of the defeated enemy, and then either hit him with the palm of your hand ... or just simply covering the hilt with your left palm, put the right one on the end of the hilt (like a chisel), drove the dagger into the body .

[alex-cn]

That this is a variant of misericordia, maybe even a relative of the stylet, agrees completely, as well as with the application. In any case, a wide top is requested to be pressed or knocked on with force.

[cth; fyn]

And why already the lying knight (the rest wore a morinion) to finish through the visor? After all, a knight is not only 25-30 kg of iron, but also a valuable ransom. As a rule, knights have rich relatives who can redeem them, it is better to tie him and captivate than to finish him off, a dead knight is worth little.

[kalibr]

The Swiss knights were not taken prisoner! For ransom punished by death! Everyone had to finish off! That's why they were afraid!

[parusnik]

With what love, I would even say, with tenderness, the weapons presented in the article are made .. Thank you ..

[73bor]

It is strange that all the photos from the Metropolitan in New York can be found closer in St. Petersburg and Moscow, and in Tula, and the expositions are richer!

[cth; fyn]

Here, as I understand it, ready-made photos were used, the author often takes a lot of good photos from the MM site, so why break the tradition? Especially considering the chaos in our museums. It is clear that there are exhibits, but the question is, is there an online exhibition? What is its quality? And so on.

[73bor]

This is from the Tula Museum, full of images from the Kremlin’s Armory Chamber!

[kalibr]

Well, the article about the bandit homemade products is yours - these things are just from this "opera".

[kalibr]

Find it, try it!

[73bor]

Here from the Armory!

[kalibr]

And there is indicated their length, weight, materials? If yes, then thanks - I will keep in mind.

[Korsar4]

As far as I understand, in Lermontov's drawing Martynov could have been hurt by some similarity between "Mr. Dagger" and the women who meet him.

The article is interesting. The perception is strange - there are several lines about Lermontov - but you cling to them first of all.

[kalibr]

But because we know about him from childhood, and the dagger daggers and kams are exotic for us. Everyone eats potatoes and praises, and avocados ... eat, but only a few!

[Generalissimo]

And why does the curved cause the cut wounds deeper?
The checker does not prick. Only chop.

[Mordvin 3]

It is more convenient to stab with a saber than a saber, because it has a more direct blade.

[Generalissimo]

You can only poke a saber, its edge is not sharpened.
All the same, why does a curved blade inflict deeper wounds?

[Mordvin 3]

sharpened.
Yes, because the blow does not go all over the plane.

[Generalissimo]

Unfinished is the difference. Also lack of guard.
Does the broadsword have it all over the "plane"?

[alex-cn]

AUTHORIZED COSSACK CHECKERS

A checker is a chopping-piercing long-bladed edged weapon. Initially, the arsenal of the Russian irregular cavalry consisted of a Caucasian-type checker, which had a blade of slight curvature of ephesus, consisting of one handle with a bifurcated head, without any protective devices. A typical Caucasian hilt can be considered one of the main distinguishing features of drafts as a type of cold steel. A characteristic difference between a saber and a saber was always the presence of a wooden scabbard fitted with leather on the saber, with a ring (less often with two rings) for the pass belts of the sword belt on the convex side (that is, it was suspended in the Caucasus side with the blade back), while the saber of the ring was always on the concave side of the scabbard. In addition, the saber was worn more often on the shoulder harness, and the saber on the waist.
and the peculiarities of wounds with a curved blade weapon are precisely explained by its shape and the features of the distribution of efforts upon impact, I once saw a distribution scheme - but too lazy to look.

[Generalissimo]

Is this the difference between the scabbard or the weapon itself?

[alex-cn]

The first in the definition of chopping and piercing
this means that the main purpose is to chop, but stabbing is also possible, although not so convenient ...

[Generalissimo]

Deliberately incorrect definition followed by "twitching" on the scabbard.

[alex-cn]

You can go through a dozen sources and everywhere the definition is one ...
The whole battalion does not keep up and only one keeps up. In such cases, arguing is useless.

[alex-cn]

If all the same, it will give you GOST R 51215-98, non-compliance is punishable by law.

[Generalissimo]

Instead of sorting through GOSTs and other sources that make up the same, you can just google the charter of the Red Army, where there are only three strokes with a saber and not a single stitching.
With a scabbard with a scabbard what? From elmani they will not help you ...

[alex-cn]

If you and the guest are not an argument, then stay with your own - I do not mind.

[Generalissimo]

See the charter of the Red Army, not GOST.
non-compliance was prosecuted by hard labor or execution.

[Mordvin 3]

Sharpened.
The broadswords were different.

[Generalissimo]

For attempting to hone a saber or establish a hilt, a Cossack was punished. The Kuban army, as the least trustworthy, was not even allowed checkers.
So what's the difference?

[Mordvin 3]

And what time are you writing about?

[Generalissimo]

For any. The Red Army men with checkers had the same. In all the "three methods" of possession of a checker according to the charter there are only chopping ones.

[Mordvin 3]

That is, you take only the time of the USSR. And the Russian Empire sideways. So?

[Generalissimo]

It was all the same - only sabers from Herr officers. :-) Russian Cossacks are worse. Well, suddenly a Pugachev riot, or something else ...

[Mordvin 3]

Yes, you sir, either or just shpien In a word - the history of Russia was not close to you. You can no longer write - I will not answer. My minus.

[Generalissimo]

In the history of Russia, nothing has been written about the Pugachev uprising? :-)
Maybe now at least the Mordovian Cossacks put something better than a rubber barrel? It was and is with edged weapons.

[Dam]

With your aplomb and astonishing stubbornness of judgment, you are reminiscent of the Zeus small arms expert. And the ideas are just as crazy.

[Generalissimo]

I don’t know this. You can just see historical photos of which officials had what kind of weapon.

[Generalissimo]

Yes, maybe then you will sparkle with knowledge and write the answer to the question twice asked at the very beginning?

[Generalissimo]

Or will you then answer this question?

[alex1966]

Shkolota raves ...

[Generalissimo]

Especially for you (from there):

Fifth myth: “To increase damage from drafts, in Central Asia, filing or rough sharpening of the butt in the warhead of the blade was used from ancient times. The blade in this part acquired an oval section, which increased its permeability. "
- A checker in such a property does not need to be connected with the chopping, and not stitching, main application.
- Sharpening from the side of the butt at the combat tip, had practical use in the backward strike, with a butt to the enemy.

[Generalissimo]

Well, something like this: checker, Wikipedia,

"The length of the saber is more than a meter, and the length of the saber is about 80 centimeters. They belong to different constructive lines. The end of the checker is not sharp, it is not intended for stabbing (a sharp end was needed to pierce the chain mail with a stabbing blow, and during the use of checkers, firearms were already fully used and chain mail was abandoned). Hence the difference in techniques: the saber is not so much a "feint" from the hand, but powerful, strong blows "from the body", which are extremely problematic to parry. They hit with a saber both from the body (to cut the opponent "to the saddle") and from the hand (in this case, due to the shift in the center of gravity of the checker due to the lack of a guard and the absence of a pointed end, despite its low weight, the opponent could be cut in the horizontal plane ). "

"It is easy to pierce the burka, with a bayonet, for example. Burka has never been armor, it is winter clothes, which quickly took off from the shoulders during the battle. And she received the nickname "soft armor" for the fact that a thick cloak could save a shellless lead bullet from a flintlock gun from being fired. "

In fact, the shkolota does not know that the checker is intended ... not for battle. It is needed in order to cut the vengeance with the first unexpected blow through a burka.
you can race back on your motorcycle and bash your clay pots with a club ... aka "weapon of war".

[alex1966]

And you, excuse me, were holding the saber in your hands, or are you only judging by the pictures? Checkers
KKV, TKV have sharpening by no means one-sided. This time. When exercising in
felling of vines is one of the targets (a clay ball in the shape of a head) - just for mining
an injection. These are two. All this is galloping. These are three ...

[Generalissimo]

For everyone that held the sharpening ended a centimeter or two to the tip.
When you work out the injection, hold tight otherwise you will be left without fingers

[Generalissimo]

You can also poke the head into a clay ball with a poker with the same effect, only it will not be a "prick". :-))) Why not some other target? :-)
If it’s more clear ...

[ArcanAG]

Kama is a good and beautiful weapon, I agree.
But to cite as other types of daggers samples adorned with a loss of functionality is a bust. They fully met their tasks and application conditions.

[ArcanAG]

In Istria, with the duel of Lermontov, in my opinion, it is not a matter of who dressed or who joked about it.

And the fact that Lermontov simply did not shoot at the enemy because of such nonsense. Apparently I thought, like the seconds by the way, that they both would shoot into the air.

Martynov, in turn, came as close as possible and aimed his shot at the enemy. The shape is normal, essentially a rotten act.

[cth; fyn]

Everything is clear, but what for because of ridicule to kill? It’s okay to fill the face, but to take a person’s life is pointless and useless, because remembering about the murdered they will remember about the grins.
As a result, Lermontov remained, in history, a great poet, and Martynov a poseur, a murderer, and a man with rotten, forever.

[Vladimirets]

Quote: cth; fyn

Everything is clear, but what for because of ridicule to kill? It’s okay to fill the face, but to take a person’s life is pointless and useless, because remembering about the murdered they will remember about the grins.

Well, there were other times, for less they called for a duel, we certainly don’t understand this.

Quote: cth; fyn

As a result, Lermontov remained, in history, a great poet, and Martynov a poseur, a murderer, and a man with rotten, forever.

Lermontov was left in the history of his great creations, but I would not record Martynov as a fiend of hell for a duel with Lermontov, this is not the same situation as Pushkin and Dantes.

[Dam]

Code of noble honor you know. It was not comme il faut to beat the face

[abrakadabre]

Beat the face not just not comme il faut, but insulting the nobility. Because they usually beat commoners.

[Avantageur]

Quote: ArcanAG

In Istria, with the duel of Lermontov, in my opinion, it is not a matter of who dressed or who joked about it.

And the fact that Lermontov simply did not shoot at the enemy because of such nonsense. Apparently I thought, like the seconds by the way, that they both would shoot into the air.

Martynov, in turn, came as close as possible and aimed his shot at the enemy. The shape is normal, essentially a rotten act.

Lermontov was a hero only in words, but how it came to a duel, he pulled his pants on and let's give up - hands uphill ... Just like in the war, everyone went into battle - and he sat down to rob ... Well, a typical ukro-banderlog ...
But the article is interesting, only few images ...

[kalibr]

For the robbery, they did not represent officers to crosses in the Caucasus, especially disgraced. There are documents (reports in the name of the sovereign) where the heroic deed of an officer was described in great detail and the awarding of a cross of a certain status was requested. So do not rave!

[Avantageur]

Quote: kalibr

For the robbery, they did not represent officers to crosses in the Caucasus, especially disgraced. There are documents (reports in the name of the sovereign) where the heroic deed of an officer was described in great detail and the awarding of a cross of a certain status was requested. So do not rave!

Provide then evidence of where the feat was described, there are probably memories of contemporaries, someone’s memoirs, etc.
I just see this ...

Lermontov ended up in the "Chechen" detachment of Lieutenant General A.V. Galafeev, who, in the course of repelling the raids of the mountaineers, carried out punitive measures against the rebellious population. The highlanders struck, in response the soldiers trampled their crops, slaughtered livestock, burned the auls of the disobedient, using the "scorched earth"

[Glot]

Lermontov ended up in the "Chechen" detachment of Lieutenant General A.V. Galafeev, who, in the course of repelling the raids of the mountaineers, carried out punitive measures against the rebellious population. The highlanders struck, in response the soldiers trampled their crops, slaughtered livestock, burned the auls of the disobedient, using the "scorched earth"

Where did this footnote come from? Can you name the source? Not a surname, but completely, from where it is taken.

[Avantageur]

Quote: Glot

Lermontov ended up in the "Chechen" detachment of Lieutenant General A.V. Galafeev, who, in the course of repelling the raids of the mountaineers, carried out punitive measures against the rebellious population. The highlanders struck, in response the soldiers trampled their crops, slaughtered livestock, burned the auls of the disobedient, using the "scorched earth"

Where did this footnote come from? Can you name the source? Not a surname, but completely, from where it is taken.

And what difference does it make if you have other descriptions of Lermontov's "exploits"? Justify your cons!

[Glot]

And what difference does it make if you have other descriptions of Lermontov's "exploits"? Justify your cons!

Minus.
I can justify the minus.
You accuse a person of cowardice:

Lermontov was a hero only in words, but as it came to a duel, he pulled his pants on, and let's give up - hands uphill ...

For these words - minus.
Since he would have been a coward a priori, he would not have come to this duel at all.
And about "getting into my pants", you shouldn't judge others by yourself.
Justified enough?

[Avantageur]

Quote: Glot

And what difference does it make if you have other descriptions of Lermontov's "exploits"? Justify your cons!

Minus.
I can justify the minus.
You accuse a person of cowardice:

Lermontov was a hero only in words, but as it came to a duel, he pulled his pants on, and let's give up - hands uphill ...

For these words - minus.
Since he would have been a coward a priori, he would not have come to this duel at all.
And about "getting into my pants", you shouldn't judge others by yourself.
Justified enough?

Here are some more interesting memories ...

"... Andrei Konchalovsky somehow got into a conversation with Count AA Ignatiev, the author of the famous book of memoirs" Fifty Years in the Ranks. "He told him about his meeting in Paris with Martynov." ... I was already fifteen years old, and I I was terribly amazed that I was hearing about Lermontov as someone who spoke personally ... I met Martynov in Paris. We, then young people, surrounded him, began to tease, accuse: "-You killed the sun of Russian poetry! Are you not ashamed? "Gentlemen, he said," if you knew what kind of person he was! He was unbearable. If I missed then, I would kill him later ... When he appeared in society, his only goal was to ruin everyone's mood. Everyone danced, had fun, and he sat somewhere in the corner and began to laugh at someone, send notes with vile epigrams from his corner. A scandal arose, someone began to sob, everyone was in a bad mood. That's when Lermontov felt okay ... "

Such an infamous type as Lermontov could calmly and in his pants pick up ...

P.S. forgot the frigate to disconnect ...

[Glot]

Here are some more interesting memories ...

It does not follow from them that he was a coward.
What a decent ovnyuk, maybe yes. According to Martynov. Or maybe so, but that a coward - no. And you accuse him of cowardice.
So much you want to mess up a person?

[Avantageur]

Quote: Glot

Here are some more interesting memories ...

So much you want to mess up a person?

Far from it, just such realities of history ... He was a vile man, and vile people are not heroes.

[Sweles]

Quote: Avantageur

Gentlemen, he said, “if you only knew what kind of person he was!” He was unbearable. If I missed then I would have killed him later ...

did you think that Martynov would say that Lermontov was the soul of society and killed him for this? Why do you believe Martynov, because he is Lermontov’s killer? In such cases, you must at least refer to the opinion of an outsider ...

[Avantageur]

Quote: Sveles

Quote: Avantageur

Gentlemen, he said, “if you only knew what kind of person he was!” He was unbearable. If I missed then I would have killed him later ...

did you think that Martynov would say that Lermontov was the soul of society and killed him for this? Why do you believe Martynov, because he is Lermontov’s killer? In such cases, you must at least refer to the opinion of an outsider ...

This is not my quote, and do not ascribe it to me.

Why do you believe Martynov, because he is Lermontov’s killer?

And whom should I believe, you ?! A fan of his works.

[Sweles]

Quote: Avantageur

And to whom I must believe, you! A fan of his works.

trust is not necessary to an interested person ...

[kalibr]

Read the "Lermontov Encyclopedia", I think it can be found on the Web.

[Avantageur]

Quote: kalibr

Read "Lermontov Encyclopedia"

Yes, but I don’t need to read Stalin’s encyclopedia (can it also be found on the net)? Maybe there is also something written about Lermontov’s exploits.

[moskowit]

The most interesting memories of Andrei Konchalovsky ... Even breathtaking!
But let us, dear lovers of history and champions of truth, take a short trip through the not most reliable encyclopedia "Wikipedia". But nonetheless.
Martynov Nikolay Solomonovich 9.10.1815-25.12.1875
Ignatiev Alexey Alekseevich 2 (14) .03.1877-20.11.1954
To everyone's disappointment, Alexey Alekseevich could not meet with Martynov in any way, especially at the age of fifteen. And Konchalovsky, a music school student at the time of the death of the famous author "50 years in the ranks" was 17 years old ...

[Vladimirets]

Quote: Avantageur

Justify your cons!

Cons only for this:

Quote: Avantageur

Who cares

[andj61]

Quote: Glot

Where did this footnote come from? Can you name the source? Not a surname, but completely, from where it is taken.

http://artofwar.ru/a/agalakow_a_w/lerm_otrdoc.shtml
It's easy to find - select the text - and with the legal button - google search ...

[Glot]

http://artofwar.ru/a/agalakow_a_w/lerm_otrdoc.shtml
It's easy to find - select the text - and with the legal button - google search ...

For some reason I can’t follow the link.
If possible, here is the source base.

[Avantageur]

Quote: Glot

http://artofwar.ru/a/agalakow_a_w/lerm_otrdoc.shtml
It's easy to find - select the text - and with the legal button - google search ...

For some reason I can’t follow the link.
If possible, here is the source base.

For some reason, the server was deleted ... It is today ...

 Show / Hide text

[Glot]

For some reason, the server was deleted ... It is today ...

I already read this source.
In a comment at the very bottom (now) of this topic, I wrote everything I think on it.
So for me, this is not a source, but so, paper and paper.

[Avantageur]

Quote: Glot

For some reason, the server was deleted ... It is today ...

I already read this source.
In a comment at the very bottom (now) of this topic, I wrote everything I think on it.
So for me, this is not a source, but so, paper and paper.

Then provide your source radiating the heroic deeds of the poet ...

[kalibr]

Do you know that the "Lermontov Encyclopedia" has been published, where his life is traced literally by day, where all the documents relating to his life are given? Up to the point where he appeared with an inappropriate saber ... It is sad that you judge what constitutes the glory and pride of Russia on the basis of such "paragraphs". And here at VO we still ask - where is our patriotism, why is it not enough? And he is hammered in by the uttermost ignorance, that's all!

[abrakadabre]

This is just you and prove your "fried" version. Your opponent is not obliged to chew on well-known things to you.

[Avantageur]

Quote: kalibr

For robbery sat down at the crosses in the Caucasus officers were not represented

Sometimes they give for beautiful words and titles, and awards, and even dachas in Barvikha ...

[kalibr]

Once again, for especially stupid and stubborn - everything is described, there are no beautiful words, there are deeds, and there was the concept of officer honor, long before Barvikha ...

[Avantageur]

Quote: kalibr

Once again, for especially stupid and stubborn - everything is described, there are no beautiful words, there are deeds, and there was the concept of officer honor, long before Barvikha ...

Well, let it be not a summer house in Barvikha, but let’s say ... a house in the village. As you wish ... As you wish. In any case, for a word, such incentives take place. As in the past, so in the present.

[Dam]

Well, following your logic, a person who writes nasty things about others is a product of the pig’s final digestion (the moderator does not allow things to be called by their proper names). Especially if these others cannot answer and challenge to a duel, since they have been dead for many years. So here you are, un respectable it is.

[Glot]

Lermontov was a hero only in words, but how it came to a duel, he pulled his pants on and let's give up - hands uphill ... Just like in the war, everyone went into battle - and he sat down to rob ... Well, a typical ukro-banderlog ...

This is you in vain.

[ArcanAG]

As well as in the war, everyone was in battle - and he sat down to rob ...

Where did you get this? You can source.

Lermontov was a hero only in words, but as it came to a duel, he pulled his pants on, and let's give up - hands uphill ...

Where and when did he give up? Where was he scared?
Did he plead wrong, or apologized to avoid a duel? Or maybe he escaped before a duel?

He calmly went out to the firearm. He stood at gunpoint, waiting for Martynov to fire.
Would you be able to, with all your undoubted courage?

Lermontov himself did not shoot at the enemy because of nonsense, so this is not cowardice, but adequacy.

[Sweles]

Quote: Avantageur

Yermontov was a hero only in words, but how it came to a duel, he pulled his pants on and let's give up - hands uphill ... Just like in the war, everyone went into battle - and he sat down to rob ... Well, a typical ukro-banderlog ...
But the article is interesting, only few images ...

How do you know such details?

[Mera joota]

Quote: ArcanAG

And the fact that Lermontov simply did not shoot at the enemy because of such nonsense. Apparently I thought, like the seconds by the way, that they both would shoot into the air.

Everything there was so muddy, Martynov said one thing, Vasilchikov another. According to Martynov, on the command “converge” Lermonov remained standing, and he approached the barrier (15 steps) and fired. Vasilchikov said that they both approached the barrier and Martynov fired after Lermontov fell Vasilchikov fired his pistol into the air.
According to the conditions of the duel, they determined the barrier of 15 steps and duelists ten steps from it. If you believe Martynov, then he had to shoot Lermontov standing at 25! steps away from him, while a bullet pierced Lermontov’s body through through falling into the right side under the lower rib and exiting from the left side between the fifth and sixth rib breaking both lungs. Of course, I have no experience shooting from dueling pistols, and even more so with a Kuchenreuter silicon lock, but I doubt very much that such consequences are possible at such a distance, especially considering the caliber of a 12 mm bullet.
I’m saying that both of them were near the barrier and Martynov managed to shoot first, Lermontov stood to his right side, leaning slightly on his left side, raising his hand with a gun, i.e. also aimed, but unfortunately did not have time ...

Quote: ArcanAG

Martynov, in turn, came as close as possible

The distance is set before the duel and seconds are observed for observing the rules, i.e. Martynov could not come closer than 15 steps.

[Vladimirets]

Quote: Mera Joota

the bullet pierced Lermontov’s body through hitting the right side under the lower rib and exiting the left side between the fifth and sixth rib breaking both lungs. Of course, I have no experience shooting with dueling pistols, and even more so with the Kuchenreuter silicon lock, but I doubt very much that such consequences are possible at such a distance, especially considering the caliber of a 12 mm bullet.

I don’t see anything impossible here, a 12mm 19th-century pistol is almost a 32-caliber modern shotgun without hitting serious bones (if a person is standing sideways) a bullet can easily pierce the body through and through.

[erased]

Great review. Well served stuff. Well, weapons are beyond praise!

[VeryBravePiggy]

The beauty, convenience, versatility and "perfection" of kama is, to put it mildly, controversial.
Someone likes bebuts, someone - "Ka Bar" or "Bowie", and someone adores Glock 78 (or 81).

Martynov won. So right. God's judgment in its purest form.
Talent is no excuse for impudence.
We did not stand nearby, and we cannot give an assessment of what happened. Given the grumpy (to say the least) character of Lermontov and the number of armed people around, the outcome of his life was quite predictable.
And for many people the word hurts much more painfully than weapons. It’s now they don’t beat the face for swearing, and they forgot about honor.

[kalibr]

As a result of this judgment of God, Russia lost its talent and acquired mediocrity. Who won in the end?

[cth; fyn]

The court of man is more severe, Lermontov was great during his life and after was great, Martynov will forever remain a scoundrel and a major.

[Glot]

The beauty, convenience, versatility and "perfection" of kama is, to put it mildly, controversial.
Someone likes bebuts, someone - "Ka Bar" or "Bowie", and someone adores Glock 78 (or 81).

I like it - EVERYTHING.

[Glot]

Great article, great photos!
Thanks Vyacheslav.

[kalibr]

I tried! The hardest thing is not even finding a photo. The Internet is full of them. And to establish paraphernalia and museum property. The easiest way to do this is with the funds of the Metropolitan Museum. But on their layout the photos "jump". Today there is text, but no photo. There is a photo tomorrow. That is, every time you have to look again! And there are 14 thousand of them. It's only physically difficult to look through it. Why they did such "hide and seek" games is not clear.

[alex-cn]

It is for this and thank you ... I would not have enough patience ....

[ArcanAG]

Quote: Avantageur

I just see this ...

Lermontov ended up in the "Chechen" detachment of Lieutenant General A.V. Galafeev, who, in the course of repelling the raids of the mountaineers, carried out punitive measures against the rebellious population. The highlanders struck, in response the soldiers trampled their crops, slaughtered livestock, burned the auls of the disobedient, using the "scorched earth"

I HZ how your source is adequate. But later it says

Lermontov evaded these punitive actions, being in the position of the general's adjutant, who acted only in case of danger - then he organized counterattacks and commanded the vanguard. He showed his motto "to be always ahead" in the battle near the river Valerik, which he described in verse and reflected the turning point of the battle in the drawing.

So far, you are behaving like a banderlog.
Pull quotes until the reverse change of meaning. Pour mud people who are proud of Russia. Pervert people's actions to the opposite.

[Glot]

I HZ how your source is adequate. But later it says

I read one poem from this source. "Afghan woman" is called.
Ugh ... I don’t know how anyone, but according to me, with this poem, everyone who passed through Afghanistan, who died there simply died out in shit, excuse me, having reduced to the image of inhuman slaying old women ... Whoever wants can find there read.
Here is such a source ... I think that in the case of Lermontov the same song.
I didn’t even read this source anymore ...

[Avantageur]

Lermontov evaded these punitive actions, being in the position of the general's adjutant, who acted only in case of danger - then he organized counterattacks and commanded the vanguard. He showed his motto "to be always ahead" in the battle near the river Valerik, which he described in verse and reflected the turning point of the battle in the drawing.

This is all from his own words described in his poems.

Quote: ArcanAG

Pull quotes until the reverse change of meaning. Pour mud people who are proud of Russia. Pervert people's actions to the opposite.

I don’t pull out anything (since I don’t pull out especially and nowhere), I don’t water or distort anything. Stay cool with the Borjomi mineral water ...

[kalibr]

Extreme ignorance is a bad argument. And the "Lermontov Encyclopedia" is an excellent source!

[Avantageur]

Quote: kalibr

Extreme ignorance is a bad argument.

And from you, I have not yet seen (except insults) any evidence (quotes). Except there’s some kind of encyclopedia, which I naturally don’t intend to re-read, since there’s not the fact that something will come out justified on your own statements.

Quote: kalibr

And the "Lermontov Encyclopedia" is an excellent source!

So look for (do not consider it work) evidence for me (give a quote from a source about Lermontov’s exploits for which he was awarded), if so, you convince me of the opposite ...

[kalibr]

You know, I do not intend to convince you of anything. You can persist in ignorance as much as you like. And they don’t pay me to educate stubborn ignoramuses. You should be glad that I even gave myself the trouble to show you at least something!
Because there is nothing more valuable than knowledge and I share it with you, although ... although it is much easier for a knowledgeable person to simply use someone else's ignorance! I published an article about the exploits of Lermontov as an officer (and Tarkhany is near my hometown and I went there more than once) in the newspaper "Penza Pravda" back in 1982. I am not a Lermonologist and since then I have not dealt with this topic, but ... if you look, I will find it. Maybe she will even appear here. Why not?

[Avantageur]

Quote: kalibr

You know, I do not intend to convince you of anything. You can persist in ignorance as much as you like. And they don’t pay me to educate stubborn ignoramuses. You should be glad that I even gave myself the trouble to show you at least something!
Because there is nothing more valuable than knowledge and I share it with you, although ... although it is much easier for a knowledgeable person to simply use someone else's ignorance! I published an article about the exploits of Lermontov as an officer (and Tarkhany is near my hometown and I went there more than once) in the newspaper "Penza Pravda" back in 1982. I am not a Lermonologist and since then I have not dealt with this topic, but ... if you look, I will find it. Maybe she will even appear here. Why not?

I have to violate your personal space, and get into this mediocre hopelessness ...
And I don’t need to be convinced. I have my own point of view. Well, so ... So far, it's you here, showing your ignoranceas you put it. Since, while I, I present to you here, that lack of knowledge, providing citations here. And this overwork, so far, lies with me). You have not yet provided me with anything other than demagogy.

[kalibr]

There is a point, no view!

[kalibr]

Yes, something "comrade" is not adequate ... Probably at school Lermontov's verses were hard by heart.

[Mwg]

Kama is a little modified voice. Look from this point of view. It seems to me that only the sizes are proportionally changed, and the hilt and blade are actually the same, well, also with a little interpretation on a national theme. The Armenian blade prompted this thought. What do you think?

[kalibr]

Yes, apparently, because why Eagle is similar to the MiG-25. Effective solutions are similar everywhere.

[VeryBravePiggy]

Perhaps the Highlanders took something from the Roman smoothness. This is a short one-handed sword for battle in tight infantry orders.
Kama is still a dagger, with a small handle, and not everyone is comfortable.