Military Review

At the last machine

109
Stupid shells did not wait for smart heads


After working for two weeks in the new year, the team specializing in machine tool manufacturing at the Tula Research Technological Institute (TNITI) was again sent on forced leave for two months - until March March 31. Are the artillery ammunition finished or will they appear on the April agenda?

The critical situation with the production of shells has developed not today. To say more precisely - with non-production. The topic raised by the “Military-Industrial Courier” last fall (“Starving God of War”) is far from being closed.

“From the state reserve of artillery shells to 2006 year left 20 percent”
In order not to cause more trouble than in the 1941 year, it is imperative to restore mass projectile production, which is impossible without the rise of the machine tool industry, primarily the Tula Research Institute of Technology.

As for the machine tool industry in general, in May 2015 in the industry marked the next 43-percentage drop compared to the previous year, and new production, created in Ulyanovsk and Tula region, are screwdriver. In addition, their products are not suitable for the manufacture of shells of large-caliber projectiles, the main modern artillery. Meanwhile, TNITI this year promised an order for just one projectile machine.

No applause


Specialized computational subsystem SVP-24, installed on Russian attack aircraft and bombers, caused a sensation - in Syria they massively use the free-fall bombs outdated in all respects, which are delivered to the target with the accuracy of the most modern self-guided ammunition. Russia can now use the huge reserves of "stupid" bombs accumulated during the Cold War, their stock is hardly finite. And each is capable of hitting a target with phenomenal accuracy - three to five meters.

At the last machineA reasonable question arises: why over the course of two decades, army analogues of air bombs - 152 mm artillery shells - were destroyed. Surely something like SVP-24 can be created for large-caliber guns. Moreover, the system - let's call it SVP-152 for simplicity - will be simpler and cheaper aviation, because the gun stands still or moves with a tank and self-propelled guns are much slower than aircraft.

If the production of new artillery shells had been stopped in order to successfully use the huge Soviet stock with new sighting systems, it would be understandable. But he is no longer there. It was largely destroyed by fires in warehouses and undermining at landfills. There is no system that we conditionally called SVP-152.

The company that manufactures SVP-24, has long sought to adopt its development into service - there were many opponents in the Ministry of Defense. One can only speculate why the generals opposed the emergence of the SVP-24. After all, its introduction has undermined the lack of control of the disposal of aerial bombs: how many were destroyed, and how many disappeared in other ways - go and find out.

Artillery shells were less fortunate - for them, no one came up with SVP, but they were proud of "Krasnopolye" and "Whale". The result is beyond praise. India last delivered 37 thousand dollars apiece. But it is unlikely that our famous gunsmiths at the level of Grabin and Shipunov would have applauded these victories.

Special Exposure Shells


Before starting the process of barbaric disposal of shells, it would be worth re-reading the book by Vasily Grabin "Weapon victories ":" ... in artillery, the duration of ammunition storage was established in 25 years, and even after this period they must serve without fail. " The artillery inspector, commander N. N. Voronov, during the testing of the new Grabin gun, refused to replace the French shells that had lain in the warehouses since 1915, despite the fact that there had been ruptures of cartridges made of poor brass, which had lost its plastic properties. “There are so many French shells in the army that they cannot be spent on firing practice. Well, would you order them to throw it away? ”

As for the rest, there were no complaints about the projectiles, and the Gharabi ... "created a different shutter, ensuring the extraction of the burst cartridge case". This is the attitude to work! And in the military ministry of the sample of the two thousand, they preferred to get into the emergency supply for maneuvers, rather than to use ammunition with expired periods of storage. After all, it was possible to extend the service life, occasionally shooting a certain amount from the parties. It was possible to disarm products in an industrial way, retaining the "hull" and other metal parts that make up the lion's share of the cost. Nevertheless, millions of artillery shells were sentenced to death by 108 and immediately executed in 68 test sites and 193 bomb sites in all military districts.

Where does such zeal come from? Who burned the pockets of the destroyed shells?

In the same two thousandth with ballistic missiles arrived much more sensible. The initial warranty period (10 years) of operation of the Topol mobile soil complexes was extended several times. The last time is before 2019, and it seems that it has already reached 30 years.

We'll rejoice at Topol, but even artillery shells could have been given the same extension of shelf life ... Are they less reliable? There are a few details and all passed 100 percent control. Therefore, 108 of millions of recycled shells could still be used - some 10, and others and all 30 years.

Thunder struck. What man?


Let's go through the basics. First, there must be an inviolable state stock of artillery shells for at least a year of war. As far as we know, 2006 percent remained from him already by 20.

Secondly, the current production should be massive, million. Moreover, the NZ should be replenished. In addition, in a special period, it will be too late to turn around - you will have to fight what is available.

Thirdly, only production consisting of highly productive equipment, automatic lines, and ideally, fully automated, can ensure the production of cheap and high-quality products that meet the requirements of the times. It took TNITI 25 years to reach this level.

The main reason that the institute failed to materialize in the pseudo-market Russian economy is not the weakness of the leadership, which is far from the production of slug production, but the lack of orders from the industry’s factories. And so the machine tools are not needed because of the reduction of the state order to the minimum that is dangerous for the country's defense capability.

For the time being, the very existence of the institute, which retained the possibility and ability to manufacture slugging machines (all the years, at least one by one, but did), inspired hopes that it would be a go-ahead and be able to quickly regain everything.

But the thunder struck (the war in the Donbass and Syria), and the “man” in the person of the officials responsible for the equipment, is in no hurry to be baptized.

Depreciation of the machine park in the industry - from 80 to 100 percent, while no one asks for new equipment. This can be explained only by the fact that the production is engaged in “samoedism” - it disassembles some machines for parts, completing others. This is possible only under the condition of a completely microscopic state order.

Therefore, the guilty in distress TNITI must be sought at the very top. Apparently, the modern Russian military doctrine, as has already happened in our stories, ceased to consider artillery "God of War." It becomes clear that it seems to someone that the artillery shells seemed to have outlived their age. Hence the neglect of production and machine tools.

But this can not be joking. The industry has been cultivated not by one day and not even for years, but for decades. A quarter century of oblivion can haunt a very serious consequences.

Help "MIC"

No orders, debts left


The Tula Technological Research Institute (TNITI) established 27 on April 1961, as an interdisciplinary design and technological bureau for the automation and mechanization of mechanical engineering. In 1994, it was transformed into OAO TNITI.

The Institute developed and implemented unique operating machines in massive quantities, providing shell production at all plants of this type in the USSR. In the 90-ies due to the almost complete disappearance of the state order for manufactured products TNITI was in a difficult economic situation. Currently, there is a question about the existence of a unique institute: 3500 remained from 280 people, debts, according to mid-December 2015, are 330 million rubles.
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http://vpk-news.ru/articles/29109
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  1. 73bor
    73bor 13 February 2016 07: 51 New
    +5
    Everything is as usual, first we will destroy everything to the ground, and then restore it from the ashes!
    1. Finches
      Finches 13 February 2016 08: 12 New
      32
      From the overabundance in our government of liberals - xenophobes, and simply outright traitors, a very sad picture emerges at a time when the Anglo-Saxons are more and more actively spinning the flywheel of war! The same thing happened in 1914-15, that same notorious shell hunger! Thank God and the Great October Revolution and personally to Joseph Vissarionovich that they managed to put the liberals against the wall before 1941, otherwise the Nazi troops could have walked along Red Square!
      1. zaqwsx
        zaqwsx 13 February 2016 12: 37 New
        +1
        and who leads
    2. Sharapov
      Sharapov 13 February 2016 08: 38 New
      +9
      There was a feeling that the author knows a way out of the problem. It is necessary to appoint him director of the Tula Research Institute of Technology - and in a year the analogue of SVP-24 for shells will be ready.
      Sorry for the sad sarcasm, but I think it is not correct to draw an analogy of shells and air bombs.
      1. Akuzenka
        Akuzenka 13 February 2016 15: 38 New
        +5
        I agree with Sharapov about the directorship. But the problem is raised BIG !!!!!!!! For this, the author is a definite plus. Remember the many numerical publications on the 45mm projectile? So they are already gone. And with such an attitude it will not be.
        1. Mikado
          Mikado 14 February 2016 21: 28 New
          +1
          Quote: AKuzenka
          I agree with Sharapov about the directorship. But the problem is raised BIG !!!!!!!! For this, the author is a definite plus. Remember the many numerical publications on the 45mm projectile? So they are already gone. And with such an attitude it will not be.


          Can I timidly propose a solution? Remove the OJSC, make the Federal State Unitary Enterprise, put it on the budget, finance from it as a strategically important object!
          Such enterprises, as well as, for example, bus fleets, in principle, cannot be profitable, unless they are included in a large private concern, such as Boeing, engaged in both military and civilian products, and a bunch of different of things.

          I repeat, for this, as well as for the fight against corruption, only the political will of the state leadership is needed. But .. if I say that everyone is "our army", they will shower with minuses.
      2. tol100v
        tol100v 13 February 2016 17: 22 New
        +3
        Quote: Sharapov
        Sorry for the sad sarcasm, but I think it is not correct to draw an analogy of shells and air bombs.

        Why not? The laws of ballistics and mathematics do not change from the type of ammunition!
        1. Nikolay K
          Nikolay K 13 February 2016 22: 49 New
          +1
          Do you know at least in general terms the principles of operation of SVP-24? The coordinates of the target are set in the autopilot and the plane drops the bomb at the calculated point, taking into account altitude, speed and other parameters. What the hell is ballast, how are you going to use these principles in artillery?
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 13 February 2016 23: 09 New
            0
            "Design point" how is it calculated? Imagine the same howitzer on a mountain shelling the valley - the model is almost identical.
            1. Bersaglieri
              Bersaglieri 14 February 2016 16: 54 New
              +2
              Not identical.
              Throwing charges are not 100% identical :)
          2. Aqela
            Aqela 14 February 2016 13: 47 New
            0
            Than useless curses, it is better to read the article in the encyclopedia.
            Ballistics (from the Greek. Βάλλειν - throw) is a science about the motion of bodies thrown into space, based on mathematics and physics. She is mainly engaged in the study of the movement of bullets and shells fired from firearms, missile shells and ballistic missiles.
            Depending on the stage of movement of the projectile are distinguished:
            - internal ballistics involved in the study of the movement of the projectile (bullet) in the gun barrel;
            - intermediate ballistics, exploring the passage of a projectile through a muzzle end and behavior in the region of a muzzle end. It is important for specialists in firing accuracy when developing silencers, flame arresters and muzzle brakes;
            - external ballistics, which studies the motion of a projectile in the atmosphere or void under the influence of external forces. It is used when calculating corrections for excess, wind and derivation;
            - obstruction or terminal ballistics, which explores the last stage - the movement of a bullet in an obstruction. Terminal ballistics are handled by gunsmiths-specialists in shells and bullets, strength and other armor and defense specialists, as well as forensic experts [1].

            So the ballistics of different dofig ...
    3. Mitek
      Mitek 13 February 2016 08: 51 New
      24
      In fact, generally a madhouse in this area. Even the production of Betabs is stopped. The banal division of the state contract. Almost no work is being done at the warehouse, at war.
      There is one point in the article "It was possible to disarm products in an industrial way, keeping the" hulls "and other metal parts that make up the lion's share of the cost." You can do it, but it will cost more than the production of a new projectile.
      In general, the farther, the more you understand the Stalin shootings ....
      1. Altona
        Altona 13 February 2016 13: 19 New
        +3
        Quote: Mitek
        In general, the farther, the more you understand the Stalin shootings ....

        ----------------------
        I have long understood the Stalinist era; I already began to understand the executions of Rosalia Zemlyachki ...
        1. gergi
          gergi 14 February 2016 01: 00 New
          0
          These Stalin’s compatriots spanked. During.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. PHANTOM-AS
        PHANTOM-AS 14 February 2016 05: 21 New
        0
        Quote: Mitek
        In fact, generally a madhouse in this area

        Madhouse in general in the military-industrial complex and if you do not look at the duroscope and do not listen to urry-pats, then we have a very sad picture.
        Here is what TNITI is currently doing according to its charter:
        The company "TNITI" in the catalog
        JSC "TNITI" in the catalog
        Categories Manufacture of machinery and equipment / Production of weapons and ammunition
        Scientific research / Natural and technical sciences
        Wholesale / Other Wholesale

        Types of activity Production of weapons and ammunition
        Research and development in the field of natural and technical sciences
        other ratailing
        Activities of paramedical personnel
        Issuing activity
        Lease of own nonresidential real estate property
        Machine Tool Production
        Bookbinding and finishing activities
        Wholesale trade of other machinery, equipment and equipment of common industrial and special purpose

        Those. in some buildings there are retail outlets, commercial medicine, there was a car dealership in the territory.
        And here is what allies look like and why TNITI should design and manufacture machine tools.
        Former workshop of an adjacent plant. For 25 years, everything was ruined !!!
        1. silver_roman
          silver_roman 16 February 2016 17: 30 New
          0
          set + in contrast, as Apparently pessimism depresses Urya-patriots.
          the problem with shells, cartridges is generally acute. and this applies not only to the groats (152mm), but also to 125mm, which is corny ammunition for small arms.
          very relevant and correct article. I was shocked by the information about the disposal of 108 million shells. it's just tin !!! recourse
      4. The comment was deleted.
    4. PKK
      PKK 13 February 2016 09: 23 New
      +3
      This is a mystery of nature! Miracles are in the sieve. Maybe Serdyukov’s machinations still? Anyone will say to himself: This can not be! But it is and there is a reason for this. One hope is that we don’t know something and that a solution is already being made. We will wait for a solution.
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. creak
        creak 13 February 2016 14: 25 New
        +6
        Quote: PKK
        Miracles in the sieve. Serdyukov’s intrigues may still be


        Sometimes it seems that if Serdyukov weren’t there, he would have to be invented - otherwise, who would we attribute to lack of professionalism, mediocrity, and all the shoals of those in power in the Army and the military-industrial complex? .. Can one poke one’s finger and look in the mirror .. . what
        1. kunstkammer
          kunstkammer 13 February 2016 16: 22 New
          0
          Really poke a finger and look in the mirror ...

          looked at himself in the mirror ... I didn’t see the shells.
      3. ruAlex
        ruAlex 13 February 2016 16: 02 New
        0
        I would like to sincerely believe
    5. max702
      max702 13 February 2016 11: 00 New
      +8
      Not quite on the topic, but still, not long ago there was a message that the production of missiles switched to three shift work, that is, around the clock .. at the moment I live for two months in Reutov and the windows overlook the NPO Mashinostroeniya plant .. Duc there is not something There is no second shift around the clock, the hull is in the dark and without the slightest movement .. In the daytime, it’s somehow sluggish, but something seems to move .. So what is said in the official statements should be very skeptical ..
      1. creak
        creak 13 February 2016 15: 44 New
        +3
        Quote: max702
        So what is said in official statements must be very skeptical


        No wonder it is said that if you think that everything is going as it should, then not everyone tells you ...
      2. Ronino
        Ronino 13 February 2016 17: 26 New
        0
        Blackout, however ...
      3. varov14
        varov14 13 February 2016 18: 42 New
        -1
        And here I read in the local press that every tenth in UVZ will be fired, and a friend told me that two thousand have already been fired. It is not otherwise that we move on to a mobilization economy, they prepare cannon fodder so that the Amer. Ikos will glitter over the red square when our traders swear an oath to them.
    6. Lopatov
      Lopatov 13 February 2016 11: 28 New
      +8
      The article, of course, is very chaotic, but it poses the right questions.

      - The issue of storage and maintenance of ammunition, creating a mob. stocks. Appeared even under Gorbachev, still not resolved.

      - The question of the destruction of "substandard". Decided barbarously, with the death of people, not fully resolved. The kids from Medvedev's entourage, like himself, are not bad to be held accountable for this. It might be worth it to do it "like in the USA, but why do it in the style of" grab your bags, the station is leaving. " Did you want to make a profit, did you have your own commercial interests?

      - The issue of the production of new ammunition. It also does not dare. Although a lot has to be replaced at the moment, in artillery from 82-mm mines and charges to them, starting (there was no horse lying around at all), and ending with 240-mm mines. Moreover, the "Coalition" is on its way, to which the existing 152-mm rounds simply do not fit.
    7. iouris
      iouris 13 February 2016 16: 21 New
      -1
      Not as usual: at a very high level they talk about the danger of war, and preparations are being made for it.
      Probably, a decision has been made "if something happens" to use nuclear weapons.
      1. varov14
        varov14 13 February 2016 18: 49 New
        +1
        Those. increase in unemployment is the future reserves of the army? And weapons - get yourself?
    8. Sweles
      Sweles 13 February 2016 21: 31 New
      +2
      Strange we produce tanks and all kinds of coalitions, but there were no shells? What kind of insanity? ay generals what's the matter?
  2. aszzz888
    aszzz888 13 February 2016 07: 53 New
    12
    After all, it was possible to extend the service life by periodically firing off a certain amount from parties.


    I put the author a plus, but there are some points with which I do not agree.
    Look at the practice of using expired shells in the war of ukrokakl against the DNI. How many cases of rupture in the trunk, both tanks and artillery? How many unexploded mines, shells and bombs stick out of various calibers and ending with the systems of the RZSO? And these are all expired PSUs. Why such PSUs if they do not work? And they have only one way - only for recycling.
    1. Evgeniy667b
      Evgeniy667b 13 February 2016 12: 43 New
      +5
      Any disposal is possible only in cases where there is something to replace. Took to destroy, put in return! And so in everything. Now we can take it as a threatened period, while in our country it’s diligently beaten and beaten according to defense capability. One is destroyed, the other is sold. A good director manages all this!
    2. CTABEP
      CTABEP 13 February 2016 16: 57 New
      +2
      Well, as I understand it, these shells just did not pass any control before use - hence the problems. By the way, a bunch of expired ammunition was also used in the DPR / LPR (only from our depots) - and for some reason they refused less often.
      And if you pass a normal test of ammunition, with selective firing of part of the party, it would be quite possible to extend their useful life, and use such ammunition in the exercises in the first place. In the end, it’s better to fight with shells, one in ten of which will not explode than simply without shells.
    3. varov14
      varov14 13 February 2016 18: 58 New
      +2
      We have everything through ...., served, five Kalash shots for the entire service, and so probably everywhere, but disposal. And it’s not about utilization at all, but about the production of a new one, and with something else to do it new and so on in the chain.
  3. Alekseev
    Alekseev 13 February 2016 07: 54 New
    +9
    I can't comment on anything, because I personally don't have reliable information. But if this is true, then there is sabotage, although "not 1937 in the yard."
  4. Wedmak
    Wedmak 13 February 2016 07: 59 New
    13
    Excuse me, where did the data on the small stock of shells come from? Themselves were in storage, thought? And if my memory serves me right, now they put into production shells with increased power. Both 152 mm and 122 mm, and 125 mm. For the coalition in general, a new type of ammunition was developed.
    Strange wringing of your hands about the lack of shells against the background of hundreds of exercises, where they are not even spent in dozens.
  5. Professor
    Professor 13 February 2016 08: 05 New
    -8
    Specialized computational subsystem SVP-24, installed on Russian attack aircraft and bombers, caused a sensation - in Syria they massively use the free-fall bombs outdated in all respects, which are delivered to the target with the accuracy of the most modern self-guided ammunition. Russia can now use the huge reserves of "stupid" bombs accumulated during the Cold War, their stock is hardly finite. And each is capable of hitting a target with phenomenal accuracy - three to five meters.

    Rave. No system is capable of ensuring the accuracy of bombing from a height of 5000 m silly bombs of 3-5 meters. For these purposes, the airborne forces use precision-guided munitions worth hundreds of thousands of dollars.



    Surely something like SVP-24 can be created for large-caliber guns.

    Can. This will improve accuracy, but Krasnopol will still fail.



    PS
    Does the author himself not want to shoot expired shells?
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 13 February 2016 10: 29 New
      11
      Quote: Professor
      Rave. No system is capable of ensuring the accuracy of bombing from a height of 5000 m silly bombs of 3-5 meters.

      Why? Everything is possible. There is nothing particularly outstanding in such a system. Almost like a direct fire to peel.

      Another thing is that it is not safe to apply such methods without entering the effective air defense fire zone will not work. That is why the military creaked so much about this SVP-24

      Quote: Professor
      Can. This will improve accuracy, but Krasnopol will still fail.

      Do not need. The need for conventional ammunition for artillery is enormous. The only task in which adjustable and guided ammunition has the advantage is the defeat of point targets. But it is not fundamental to artillery.
      1. Professor
        Professor 13 February 2016 10: 39 New
        +4
        Why? Everything is possible. There is nothing particularly outstanding in such a system. Almost like a direct fire to peel.

        No. Know the wind gradient.

        Quote: Spade
        Another thing is that it is not safe to apply such methods without entering the effective air defense fire zone will not work. That is why the military creaked so much about this SVP-24

        IMHO not only. The military is well aware that even knowing exactly the speed, course and height of the aircraft and the direction and speed of the wind around the aircraft, it is impossible to hit with an ordinary bomb from an altitude of 5000 m with an accuracy of 3-5 meters. The ideal aerodynamic qualities of the bomb are necessary so that all bombs are identical to the last micron and it is necessary to know the gradient of the wind (and so that it does not change from the moment of discharge to the moment it hits the target) throughout the course of the bomb's path to the target.

        Quote: Spade
        Do not need. The need for conventional ammunition for artillery is enormous. The only task in which adjustable and guided ammunition has the advantage is the defeat of point targets. But it is not fundamental to artillery.

        The author is not about that. He wanted an unparalleled analogue in the world of SVP-24, but for artillery and, in his words, an ordinary projectile would become highly accurate.
        1. sabakina
          sabakina 13 February 2016 10: 54 New
          +4
          Professor
          For those who do not understand, the hero of DiCaprio is not fictional. This is a real person. He was wounded, survived in harsh conditions without equipment and weapons and overcame more than 320 km.

          Professor, are you talking about yourself?
          Ah, well, yes, today is Saturday ...
        2. Lopatov
          Lopatov 13 February 2016 10: 57 New
          +1
          Quote: Professor
          The ideal aerodynamic qualities of a bomb are necessary so that all bombs are identical to the last micron

          Then the accuracy can be considered tens of centimeters, not meters
          Quote: Professor
          and it is necessary to know the gradient of the wind (and so that it does not change from the moment of discharge to the moment it hits the target) throughout the entire trajectory of the bomb to the target.

          Radar determination of the parameters of the meter has long been no news.

          Quote: Professor
          The author is not about that. He wanted an unparalleled analogue in the world of SVP-24, but for artillery and, in his words, an ordinary projectile would become highly accurate.

          Almost yes. At the moment, no one in real time takes into account all the parameters that affect the trajectory of the projectile.
          1. Professor
            Professor 13 February 2016 11: 44 New
            +3
            Quote: Spade
            Then the accuracy can be considered tens of centimeters, not meters

            No. Compare the accuracy of the projectile and OFAB. And even such an accuracy in the manufacture of the projectile, its almost perfect shape does not allow to achieve accuracy of 3-5 meters.

            Quote: Spade
            Radar determination of the parameters of the meter has long been no news.

            1. The gradient of the wind is not determined by the radar.
            2. SVP-24 does not allow to determine the gradient of the wind. The bomb will simply be blown away by the wind.





            Quote: Spade
            Almost yes. At the moment, no one in real time takes into account all the parameters that affect the trajectory of the projectile.

            And therefore, they use expensive high-precision ammunition.
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 13 February 2016 12: 17 New
              11
              Quote: Professor
              And even such an accuracy in the manufacture of the projectile, its almost perfect shape does not allow to achieve accuracy of 3-5 meters.

              ?
              An old 122-mm gun D-25. Range 5 km. We shoot, for example, on the wall of the house. 50% of the shells will fit in an ellipse with a semi-major axis of 2.2 meters and a small 1.5 meters.
              100% of the shells are 17.6 m by 12 m, respectively. Without any real-time shooting systems.

              Quote: Professor
              The gradient of the wind is not determined by the radar.

              Easy. Moreover, this is exactly how these radars work. The speed and direction of the wind in each discrete layer are determined, and by the usual addition, a result is obtained for the required height.

              Quote: Professor
              And therefore, they use expensive high-precision ammunition.

              Exactly. The keyword is "expensive". You can earn a lot more on them than on the maintenance of a truly working OMS, taking into account the conditions of shooting in real time.
              1. Professor
                Professor 13 February 2016 17: 56 New
                +2
                Quote: Spade
                An old 122-mm gun D-25. Range 5 km. We shoot, for example, on the wall of the house. 50% of the shells will fit in an ellipse with a semi-major axis of 2.2 meters and a small 1.5 meters.
                100% of the shells are 17.6 m by 12 m, respectively. Without any real-time shooting systems.

                Take a 152 mm howitzer and 30 km. How many quo? And Krasnopol?

                Quote: Spade
                Easy. Moreover, this is exactly how these radars work. The speed and direction of the wind in each discrete layer are determined, and by the usual addition, a result is obtained for the required height.

                No. There are no such radars for determining the wind gradient at 5000 m in real time. Determined by the good old ball launch method. The Doppler radar does not hit 5000 m and it isn’t on the airplane.







                Quote: Spade
                Exactly. The keyword is "expensive". You can earn a lot more on them than on the maintenance of a truly working OMS, taking into account the conditions of shooting in real time.

                With all the bells and whistles, self-propelled guns with conventional ammunition will not provide a KVO of 3-5 m for 30-40 km. You know this better than me. request

                Quote: afdjhbn67
                Oleg confused us with the residents and so on, they said 3-5 meters on TV.)))))

                So I do not argue with the TV ... wink

                Quote: Evgeniy667b
                Wind parameters are determined through a radar tracking a meteorological probe.

                Here I am about that. Are the militias launching this probe or the Su-24?

                Quote: Normal ok
                In my cadet youth (the end of the 80s) I shot shells with a release date of the beginning of the 50s (if I'm not mistaken, it was marked 1952).

                The USSR through the Arab armies supplied Tsakhal with a huge amount of weapons, including RPGs. So in the 90s RPG misfires already happened in about 50% of cases. And then call the sappers and so on ...
                1. Lopatov
                  Lopatov 13 February 2016 18: 23 New
                  +2
                  Quote: Professor
                  Take a 152 mm howitzer and 30 km. How many quo? And Krasnopol?

                  Why 30? Firstly, we are not talking about 30 but about 5 km. Secondly, we are not talking about firing from a closed target, but about "direct fire" - the aircraft crew still observes the target.

                  Quote: Professor
                  No. There are no such radars for determining the wind gradient at 5000 m in real time.

                  http://www.npovk.ru/meteorologicheskoe-oborudovanie_0_26.html

                  Quote: Professor
                  With all the bells and whistles, self-propelled guns with conventional ammunition will not provide a KVO of 3-5 m for 30-40 km.

                  Why so sure? Full dispersion over a range of 30 meters is enough when shooting at group targets. More is not necessary.

                  Quote: Professor
                  So in the 90s RPG misfires already happened in about 50% of cases.

                  And did the Arabs keep all the requirements of the guiding documents when storing these shots? 8)))))))))))))
                  1. Professor
                    Professor 13 February 2016 18: 34 New
                    +1
                    Quote: Spade
                    Why 30? Firstly, it’s not about 30 but about 5 km.

                    Similarly. Bombing from 5000 m is prohibitive as well as shelling from 40 km.

                    Quote: Spade
                    Secondly, we are not talking about firing from a closed target, but about "direct fire" - the aircraft crew still observes the target.

                    So what? The crew in SPU-24 does not aim at the target, but only enters the coordinates. Everything else, including a bomb drop, is done by the system itself.

                    Quote: Spade
                    Quote: Professor
                    No. There are no such radars to determine the wind gradient on 5000 m in real time.
                    http://www.npovk.ru/meteorologicheskoe-oborudovanie_0_26.html

                    Range of heights of measurement of a profile of a wind, m 100-2600

                    Quote: Spade
                    Why so sure? Full dispersion over a range of 30 meters is enough when shooting at group targets. More is not necessary.

                    Where it is necessary to use expensive ammunition, what are your Americans. Now here are the Indians. Because ordinary is not enough. You can, for example, hook your own.



                    Quote: Spade
                    And did the Arabs keep all the requirements of the guiding documents when storing these shots? 8)))))))))))))

                    And the Arabs did not have time to store them. The Soviets made them practical "hot" for the Tsakhal. wink
                    1. Lopatov
                      Lopatov 13 February 2016 23: 23 New
                      +1
                      Quote: Professor
                      Similarly. Bombing from 5000 m is prohibitive as well as shelling from 40 km.

                      No analogy.

                      Quote: Professor
                      So what? The crew in SPU-24 does not aim at the target, but only enters the coordinates. Everything else, including a bomb drop, is done by the system itself.

                      Abajadit. We are not discussing SPU-24, but the fundamental impossibility of bombing free-falling bombs with accuracy, as in high-precision ones.

                      Quote: Professor
                      Range of heights of measurement of a profile of a wind, m 100-2600

                      For this complex, such a height is enough for the eyes. Energy. It is tailored for work from the remote, that is, from the battery. And it is designed to give accurate data on the active section of the MLRS trajectory. The new "smile" has a higher height.

                      Quote: Professor
                      Where it is necessary to use expensive ammunition, what are your Americans.

                      "Where you need it"? We have a rather narrow niche for VTB - armored vehicles, primarily in motion. Plus highly protected point targets.
                      Well, the Americans have their own troubles ... It is not profitable for their manufacturers to create really accurate art. systems capable of operating conventional shells.
                      1. Professor
                        Professor 14 February 2016 07: 47 New
                        +1
                        Quote: Spade
                        No analogy.

                        Full analogy. KVO 3-5 meters for artillery systems at a distance of 40 km is like KVO 3-5 meters when bombing from a height of 5000 meters. Unreachable. But the author is trying to bind them. laughing

                        Quote: Spade
                        Abajadit. We are not discussing SPU-24, but the fundamental impossibility of bombing free-falling bombs with accuracy, as in high-precision ones.

                        Abadzhal ...
                        And the SVU-24 and "the fundamental impossibility of bombing free-fall bombs with the accuracy of high-precision bombs" as the author claims the opposite.

                        Quote: Spade
                        For this complex, such a height is enough for the eyes. Energy. It is tailored for work from the remote, that is, from the battery. And it is designed to give accurate data on the active section of the MLRS trajectory. The new "smile" has a higher height.

                        I repeat. There is no radar at all and there is no other device that allows you to determine the wind gradient for the SVU-24, among other things, so "an accuracy of 3-5 meters" is complete nonsense.

                        Quote: Spade
                        "Where you need it"? We have a rather narrow niche for VTB - armored vehicles, primarily in motion. Plus highly protected point targets.
                        Well, the Americans have their own troubles ... It is not profitable for their manufacturers to create really accurate art. systems capable of operating conventional shells.

                        The main niche IMHO is the same for everyone - you can't catch your own. And they do not create "precise artillery systems capable of operating with conventional shells" on an equal footing with high-precision ones, since this is not possible in principle because:
                        Quote: Spade
                        At the moment, no one in real time takes into account all the parameters that affect the trajectory of the projectile.
                    2. iouris
                      iouris 15 February 2016 00: 37 New
                      0
                      Quote: Professor
                      Bombing from 5000 m is prohibitive as well as shelling from 40 km.

                      Nothing in common: the plane flies at a speed of 250 m / s, the plane is a complex dynamic object whose behavior in one control loop is described by a second-order equation (minimum), and there are three of them, there are cross-links and this object still needs to be controlled in the presence of atmospheric and other disturbances.
                2. varov14
                  varov14 13 February 2016 19: 21 New
                  +1
                  Yes, calm down, you finally, the problem of a eaten egg is not worth it. High-precision weapons, this is Obama's window, but he is not touched, everything else is carpeted and as often as possible.
            2. afdjhbn67
              afdjhbn67 13 February 2016 13: 06 New
              0
              Quote: Professor
              And therefore, they use expensive high-precision ammunition.

              That you confuse Oleg with graiders and so on, they said 3-5 meters on TV.)))))
            3. Evgeniy667b
              Evgeniy667b 13 February 2016 13: 07 New
              +5
              There is a special service to take into account the state of the atmosphere and meteorological corrections during firing. Wind parameters are determined through a radar tracking a meteorological probe. Temperature according to the sensor on this probe. In addition, Interpolation of surface measurement data is possible according to a special algorithm. Of course, both methods cannot be called ideally accurate, but they increase the accuracy of the shooting quite significantly. I don’t know how it is now, but there were meteorological units in the Soviet army. Battery to the rocket brigade. And a platoon to the regiment.
              Much more accurate shooting from closed positions depends on the accuracy of topographic location and determination of the coordinates of the target. Satellite receivers give at best 5 meters. When removing from a card, an accuracy of 0,1 mm on a map scale or rougher. Also, you need to solve the serif on landmarks, mainly with a compass.
              Well, if the fork arises from three sighting, that's good!
              1. Lopatov
                Lopatov 13 February 2016 13: 31 New
                +3
                Quote: Evgeniy667b
                Wind parameters are determined through a radar tracking a meteorological probe.

                You have outdated information.
                Yes, weather sensing systems provide very accurate information. But not in real time.

                And they work with it. Firstly, at the battery level, an old DMK will be replaced by a more advanced complex with a radar for determining wind parameters
                http://www.npovk.ru/meteorologicheskoe-oborudovanie_0_26.html

                Secondly, the modernized "Smile", which is already undergoing tests, in addition to the probes received a similar radar of wind profiles.

                This is what it is now. In perspective, radio acoustic methods. They will not only be able to receive wind direction and speed in real time, but also temperature, pressure, humidity, turbulence.

                N photos 1B67-1
                1. Evgeniy667b
                  Evgeniy667b 13 February 2016 17: 28 New
                  +1
                  Lopatov (1) RU  Today, 13:31 ↑ New



                  Quote: Evgeniy667b

                  Wind parameters are determined through a radar tracking a meteorological probe.

                  You have outdated information.
                  Yes, weather sensing systems provide very accurate information. But not in real time.

                  Thanks for the information! my data are undeniably outdated, because my skate was the ARMS complex with the RMS-1 radar. They were outdated in the early 80s. And in 88 they drove Kapyar with her. Even the photo from the user manual
                2. atalef
                  atalef 14 February 2016 08: 25 New
                  0
                  Quote: Spade
                  And they work with it.

                  Quote: Spade
                  secondly, the modernized "Smile", which is already being tested

                  Quote: Spade
                  In perspective, radio acoustic methods

                  Quote: Spade
                  MK?
                  They only work in the surface layer. The above data are calculated, and therefore they are not particularly accurate

                  I read the entire branch here and somehow understood. that you contradict yourself a little. maybe, as I understand it in real time, the wind speed (at the moment) can not give a single radar (more precisely, quickly transfer the data to a bomber), but the aiming system itself does not have such capabilities
                  Therefore, the next question is whether it is possible to achieve the QUO 3-5 m FAB?
            4. varov14
              varov14 13 February 2016 19: 14 New
              0
              Is it worth it to worry that the shell will kill the wrong terrorist that I saw in sight, the main thing in the war is that the carpet is bigger and the carpet is more crowded - that's all.
        3. your1970
          your1970 13 February 2016 13: 26 New
          0
          Wind? But what did portable weather stations not please you (I carried one in 80) - and they were also with remote sensors (for the front line in auto mode). It easily measures all the data for artillery - temperature, humidity, wind, pressure. Data Easily read and transferred to CPU for processing
          At the moment, a small box of the calculator can easily cope with this - our infection was rather heavy. repeat
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 13 February 2016 13: 38 New
            +2
            DMK?
            They only work in the surface layer. The above data are calculated, and therefore they are not particularly accurate.
            1. varov14
              varov14 13 February 2016 19: 30 New
              +1
              The military you are crushing water in a mortar - only with a carpet, frightening and sobering, and high-precision - a comrade died nearby, but you don’t understand why. When the earth burns underfoot, it is more visible.
              1. gavrosh.ru
                gavrosh.ru 14 February 2016 03: 21 New
                0
                carpet would be good. sorry that we can not afford ......
      2. iouris
        iouris 15 February 2016 00: 28 New
        0
        Quote: Spade
        Everything is possible. There is nothing particularly outstanding in such a system.

        Shooting and bombing is such a probabilistic process that probability theory developed through it.
        The opponent gives you absolutely correct arguments. You can, of course, fall right into the shovel: this event is possible, but almost unbelievable.
        I can't believe the deflection never exceeds "3 m". However, if 3 m is a statistical estimate of the expected value, then yes. But the estimate of the standard deviation is unlikely to be less than 50 m. And this is a good result, without the SVP-24 RMS it would probably be within 300..400 meters.
        If my estimate is correct, then the only thing that can be guaranteed is that the deviation of the bomb from the shovel handle in absolute value does not exceed 150 m.
        As for unguided bombs with "ideal shapes", the price of such a product will be commensurate with the price of guided munitions.
    2. cth; fyn
      cth; fyn 13 February 2016 10: 37 New
      +1
      I would not want to shoot overdue, I want to live.
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 13 February 2016 10: 59 New
        +4
        Nothing wrong with that.
        It is not the "delay" that is dangerous, the lack of maintenance of the ammunition is dangerous.
        1. Anatole Klim
          Anatole Klim 13 February 2016 13: 07 New
          +1
          Quote: Spade
          It is not the "delay" that is dangerous, the lack of maintenance of the ammunition is dangerous.

          You write everything correctly. There are used items with expired storage periods, and there are used dangerous handling. Ammunition whose storage period has expired, this does not mean that it will explode in the barrel or self-ignite, but it’s dangerous to handle, they can not be used in firing, this can lead to an explosion and to defeat the calculation. As an example, I had a box of 1939 intake rifle cartridges in my storage, my ensign ate all my baldness (and did it right) when I wrote out an order to destroy them. I was also surprised that maybe some of the Red Army men in 1941 did not have enough of these cartridges, and they have been in storage for half a century. I tried to break through how they appeared with us, I found an old accounting card, it was clear at that time that no one had heard of any computer accounting, and so they came from the Ministry of Internal Affairs in 1954. Then the Vokhrovites came to our shooting range to conduct test firing, and finally managed to shove them this box of cartridges. So, about every tenth cartridge misfired, and somewhere every tenth bullet did not reach the target, but 80% of the cartridges were suitable, and this was after half a century of storage.
          1. Pilat2009
            Pilat2009 13 February 2016 13: 31 New
            +2
            Quote: Anatol Klim
            So, about every tenth cartridge misfired

            There was such a case during the war, large-caliber machine guns began to misfire, it turned out to be capsules coated with domestic varnish. Covered with imported varnish, they did not misfire.
            There was also a case where the liner was made according to the lower tolerance and the receiver on the upper, a rare coincidence, critical for aircraft.
            That is, the combat properties of ammunition are affected by many factors
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 13 February 2016 13: 40 New
              +2
              Combat properties are deteriorating. Degradation of gunpowder, degradation of explosives. But they are not dangerous. If timely and fully serviced.
              1. Anatole Klim
                Anatole Klim 13 February 2016 17: 28 New
                0
                Quote: Spade
                If timely and fully serviced.

                Often full and timely maintenance will no longer help; poor storage leaves no chance for combat use. I remember there was a stack of 2C3 shots, it was not covered, the upper boxes were rotten, water began to penetrate into the boxes, frost, you open the box, and there, a shot in the ice, and so on for several years in a row, it freezes and thaws. He achieved destruction, offered to attract sappers and undermine, but the commander decided to destroy by shooting, where to go, the order, the soldiers were naturally dismissed, and suddenly an explosion, they might die, they sat in the sauna together with the battalion commander, but they began to shoot at the range, the first shot went away, the second .., on the third, a lingering shot-hiss, the battalion commander yells "for cover", jumped out of the sauna and run farther ... a shot, the shell falls in 30 meters, stick in the flag .., in short, the sapper still arrived and blew up the not exploded ... I remembered my youth ... served normally.
    3. Finntroll
      Finntroll 13 February 2016 11: 23 New
      +2
      That's about the fact that every weapon has a "shelf life" of storage and old shells must be disposed of unambiguously, and not pushing them into a weapon with a slightly predictable result, I absolutely agree, but otherwise ... who knows, maybe 3-5m, or maybe 5-10m but it's still very, very good for a free-fall bomb.
    4. Normal ok
      Normal ok 13 February 2016 16: 19 New
      +1
      Quote: Professor
      Does the author himself not want to shoot expired shells?

      In my cadet youth (late 80s) I shot shells with a release date of the early 50s (if I remember correctly, it was marked 1952). Specifically, in the first year, from D-44. I even had an ashtray from the shell of such a shell. So, a period of 25 years is far from the limit.
      In general, what is described in the article really goes beyond logic.
    5. Normal ok
      Normal ok 13 February 2016 16: 19 New
      0
      Quote: Professor
      Does the author himself not want to shoot expired shells?

      In my cadet youth (late 80s) I shot unitary b / p with a release date of 1948. Specifically, in the first year, from D-44. remembered the date since my ashtray was from the sleeve of such a projectile)) True, the projectile was "practical" - i.e. steel bar. But the gunpowders were quite usable. As for the shells of larger calibers, in the second year we fired 120mm mines with a shelf life of about 20-30 years. For the D-30, there were mainly 10-15 year old shells.
      In general, what is described in the article really goes beyond logic.
  6. ordinary
    ordinary 13 February 2016 08: 06 New
    +5
    we in siberia are looking for specialists for production lines, I'm talking about patrons .... there are no specialists, who are retired, who died ... they called my cousin brother, he once earned "harmfulness" on these lines ... he was 56 years old brother drank himself ... a bit living disabled person of group 2 ... there is no one to work
    1. Mitek
      Mitek 13 February 2016 10: 15 New
      +5
      We produce cartridges in three shifts. The equipment is completely changed. But the frames were saved.
  7. afdjhbn67
    afdjhbn67 13 February 2016 08: 17 New
    +6
    The fifth article of the year only on VO - they still can’t cut anything, who just didn’t subscribe to the pile from regalia ... What does our prosecutor's office think ?? Or there’s no time for the Seagull - it is fighting off the bulk)))))
    1. sabakina
      sabakina 13 February 2016 10: 58 New
      12
      Quote: afdjhbn67
      The fifth article of the year only on VO - they still can’t cut anything, who just didn’t subscribe to the pile from regalia ... What does our prosecutor's office think ?? Or there’s no time for the Seagull - it is fighting off the bulk)))))

      From the prosecutor's office there were only epaulets and ambitions.
      In the USSR, the prosecutor was a prosecutor, right now .... Believe me, I know what I'm writing.
      1. afdjhbn67
        afdjhbn67 13 February 2016 13: 02 New
        0
        Quote: sabakina
        In the USSR, the prosecutor was a prosecutor, right now .... Believe me, I know what I'm writing.

        So I actually about the same ..)))
      2. gavrosh.ru
        gavrosh.ru 14 February 2016 03: 24 New
        +1
        .... neither prosecutors, nor investigators, nor operas. current businessmen tepericha there
  8. Sergey333
    Sergey333 13 February 2016 08: 24 New
    +7
    It seems most of the bosses in Russia are traitors bribed by the United States.
  9. dFG
    dFG 13 February 2016 08: 50 New
    +4
    And the article and comments are extremes: it is about a machine-tool plant and not about an enterprise directly producing ammunition on the factories themselves, unfortunately, machines from enemy countries were installed in the fat years, and therefore it’s not very correct to draw conclusions about the stocks of shells on the example of a machine-tool plant well, and the arguments stated by colleagues above on the use of expired supplies in the article are ignored
  10. ImPerts
    ImPerts 13 February 2016 08: 53 New
    +3
    Interesting article. Is the author admitted to the holy of holies? To state secret? I can’t comment, I can either believe or disbelieve. They also said about the Armed Forces that they were ruined, that Pristina was not an indicator ... What luck was in South Ossetia ... But Crimea and Syria somehow did not fit into the painted picture.
  11. surrozh
    surrozh 13 February 2016 08: 55 New
    10
    Stalin instructed the famous geologist to discover new oil fields, to which the geologist replied that there were no deposits. Stalin then replied that there were no deposits — no geologist. Deposits were discovered during the year. Responsible should be, for specific actions, and punishment accordingly (or gratitude).
    1. 16112014nk
      16112014nk 13 February 2016 12: 26 New
      +4
      More precisely so.
      Stalin instructed Baibakov, the future Chairman of the USSR State Planning Commission, to open new oil fields. When Baibakov objected that this was impossible, Stalin replied:
      -Will there be oil - there will be Baibakov. There will be no oil - there will be no Baibakov!
      Soon, oil fields were discovered in Tatarstan and Bashkiria.
      And all this happened during the war in 1941.
    2. Pilat2009
      Pilat2009 13 February 2016 13: 35 New
      +1
      Quote: surozh
      Stalin then answered that there are no deposits - there is no geologist

      In general, Stalin resolved matters radically, therefore they won the war. If a person is tired of work, one must find someone who is not tired. Now we have Chubais and Serdyukov attached to warm places, and Siluanov and Ulyukaev can only form a budget for oil and gas exports
  12. Million
    Million 13 February 2016 09: 05 New
    +3
    The new governor has come, he will raise the whole military commissar. If he wants to ....
  13. gray
    gray 13 February 2016 09: 07 New
    +2
    The author simply burns: “We will be glad for the Topol, but artillery shells could have been given the same expiration date ... Are they really less reliable? There are also a few parts and everything went through 100% control. So, 108 million disposed of shells could still be used - some 10, and others and all 30 years. "Here I would like to remind the" author "of the case of a tank explosion during an exercise in the Volga-Ural Military District. The reason for the death of the tank crew was the explosion of a shell in the barrel of a tank gun.
  14. Gray 43
    Gray 43 13 February 2016 09: 19 New
    +4
    We need to create our own machine park for the "defense industry", recently an article on the forum was how they smashed the VMZ-barbarously, by order of the import manager, they threw unique machines and documentation out into the street, and the enterprise was fulfilling orders not only from AvtoVAZ, but also from the aviation industry, nuclear Where did these customers go? Surely to foreign manufacturers, and their high-class specialists were out of work. What is the point of encouraging young people to study for production workers, if there is no confidence that after graduation they will work in their specialty, and not somewhere in the market
  15. cccr51
    cccr51 13 February 2016 09: 23 New
    +4
    And what, Vova and Dimans do not think the prof. to restore education?
  16. Bagnyuk selo
    Bagnyuk selo 13 February 2016 09: 23 New
    -12 qualifying.
    in Belarus, they don’t let out anything like this ... there’s a famine in the country, and our planes are buying 40 million each ...
    1. Rurikovich
      Rurikovich 13 February 2016 09: 53 New
      +4
      Poor, you unfortunate ... Go and put your teeth on the shelf ... Something I can't see empty shelves "a la 90s" ... what
      Or is the change in the number of sausage varieties from 10 to 5 in each store already considered a hunger ???
      Yes, there is a crisis in the country ... And so is the crisis in the whole world. But you don’t have to stoop to such ... so near to babble about hunger!
      1. Bagnyuk selo
        Bagnyuk selo 13 February 2016 11: 11 New
        -4
        what to talk about? I just gave almost 500 thousand for a communal house yesterday .. !!!! it's from 2 million ... but is there? and get dressed? and weave a hundred? well at least there is a moonshine ... and pour fuel into the car? in Raipo everything is more expensive than in the city .. collective farm on the cense ... what kind of war? what cyber troops are there? in Minsk 10 lyamas got drunk a lot of them blather .. although there is one village ... I know ...
        1. m262
          m262 13 February 2016 15: 51 New
          +1
          10 lyam in Minsk is a luxury, 6 average ...
  17. black
    black 13 February 2016 10: 11 New
    0
    Custom article. Lobbying the interests of the institute. I immediately attribute the information presented to the category of doubtful.
  18. Mera joota
    Mera joota 13 February 2016 10: 16 New
    +4
    Specialized computing subsystem SVP-24, installed on Russian attack aircraft and bombers, caused a sensation

    I hope the author is lying. If not, it is infinitely painful for our pilots rejoicing in the sighting and navigation system similar to the one that the Americans used in 1991. in Iraq. Moreover, the system lacks an optical channel, which cannot but depress.
    Surely something like SVP-24 can be created for large-caliber guns.

    Of course you can, already have it. This resource already had a review of foreign systems.
    http://topwar.ru/38624-polevaya-artilleriya-boepripasy-i-vspomogatelnye-sistemy.
    html
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 13 February 2016 10: 41 New
      +5
      Quote: Mera Joota
      rejoicing sighting and navigation system

      Well, this is not pure sighting and navigation, is it? The main "trick" is the trajectory calculation ...


      Quote: Mera Joota
      This resource already had a review of foreign systems.
      http://topwar.ru/38624-polevaya-artilleriya-boepripasy-i-vspomogatelnye-sistemy.

      html

      No, there’s nothing particularly outstanding about your link. Ours are trying to build such a system, with a radar for determining wind parameters, with ballistic radars, but so far everything is in the process ...
      1. Mera joota
        Mera joota 13 February 2016 12: 59 New
        -1
        Quote: Spade
        Well, this is not pure sighting and navigation, is it? The main "trick" is the trajectory calculation ...

        Well, if we take into account that the data about the target is driven before departure and in flight there is no way to enter the coordinates of the identified targets, then we can say that it is not clean.
  19. cth; fyn
    cth; fyn 13 February 2016 10: 43 New
    +1
    And why did the author decide what exactly his machines are needed by everyone? Perhaps just nobody needs tnith machines because there is a better alternative to them? Did the author ask this question? Is tniti product competitive?
    1. Paranoid50
      Paranoid50 13 February 2016 15: 40 New
      +3
      As far as I remember, about six months ago, Putin talked with the governor of the Ryazan region. And the governor reported that in Ryazan he had again earned (in fact regained a second life) a machine tool factory that was directly related to the defense industry. And he thanked Putin for participating in this issue (manual control?). The enterprise is large, serious. Recently I was in Ryazan (I visit regularly), I asked the locals. They say yes. Colleagues, who are from Ryazan, confirm or deny?
  20. Mera joota
    Mera joota 13 February 2016 10: 50 New
    +2
    The most common artillery navigation and targeting system is the French Sigma 30-700 from Sagem Defense Securite Sigma. She is particularly equipped with self-propelled guns PzH 2000 and CAESAR.
    Providing fully autonomous artillery operation, Sagem's new Sigma 30-700 system is specifically designed to provide high-precision firing from long-range artillery. Like other members of the Sigma 30 family, the new system guarantees the same degree of accuracy without GPS as with it, as well as in conditions of jamming or false targets. Based on its characteristics, the Sigma 30-700 can also be used in the fight against batteries or in conjunction with long-range air defense radars.
    The Sigma 30, associated with a ballistic computer, provides the artillery with significant operational advantages, supporting rapid deployment and a wide range of tasks, both in symmetric and asymmetric conflicts.
    The Sigma 30 system is based on the technology of a digital ring laser gyro with a long optical path (32 cm). She uses Sagem's proven industry and technology experience in navigation systems.


    And now with regards to SVP-24 "Hephaestus". In 1992. in Ramenskoye, on the basis of the "Ramenskoye Instrument-Making Design Bureau", the Gefest IT company was created, which promised to create a computer on-board system for the Ministry of Defense for the modernization of the Su-24M. The order and money were received and a series of corruption scandals, showdowns, suspension of work, etc. began. As a result, a certain product called SVP-24 "Hephaestus" was blinded, which was even sold to the Algerians in 1999, but the MO, having experienced this miracle, spat for a long time and sent Hephaestus IT where they should go, after 10! years of ROC in 2002. they put an end to the SVP-24.
    But the gentlemen from Hephaestus IT did not calm down and seized 50 million rubles from the Moscow Region. for allegedly spent personal funds (4 years sued!).
    Further undercover fuss is not known, but here is the chronology:
    In 2006 Hephaestus IT again agreed with the Moscow Region to supply the SVP-24 system to the upgraded Su-24.
    In 2007 at MAX 2007
    OJSC FNPC Ramenskoye Instrument-Making Design Bureau (RPKB) and Sagem Defense Securite, a member of the SAFRAN group of companies, have signed an agreement of intent to create a joint venture in Russia. The purpose of the joint venture will be the adaptation, joint production, sale and maintenance of the latest generation of inertial navigation systems intended for Russian and international aviation programs.

    Those. Hephaestus IT gained access to modern inertial navigation systems, which Sagem Defense Securite is famous for, and was able to finally bring the SVP-24 to condition and in October 2008 the system was adopted by the Russian Armed Forces.
    From the beginning of development to the adoption of 16 years ...
    1. Lopatov
      Lopatov 13 February 2016 11: 09 New
      +1
      Quote: Mera Joota
      The most common artillery navigation and targeting system is the French Sigma 30-700 from Sagem Defense Securite Sigma. She is particularly equipped with self-propelled guns PzH 2000 and CAESAR.

      The question is actually much more complicated than you think. Determining the exact coordinates of the gun’s standing point and the directional angle of the machine’s axis is very important. But it will not give a special increase in accuracy with conventional ammunition.

      Quote: Mera Joota
      Like other members of the Sigma 30 family, the new system guarantees the same degree of accuracy without GPS as with it, as well as in conditions of jamming or false targets

      Who wrote such a game ??? 8))))) Okay interference, maybe someone will be able to drown out the signal of the ZhPS satellites in a large area. But what are the false goals here from which side? 8)))
      1. Mera joota
        Mera joota 13 February 2016 13: 04 New
        +1
        Quote: Spade
        Who wrote this game?

        www.army-guide.com
        Quote: Spade
        But what are the false goals here from which side?

        I can’t know, Comrade Colonel ....
  21. chunga-changa
    chunga-changa 13 February 2016 10: 55 New
    +3
    Our army has two troubles - the witness Serdyukov and the head of the military-industrial complex, international journalist and self-gunner Rogozin. One trouble seems to have been partially eliminated, and Rogozin continues to frolic to the fullest - there is no such case that he has not yet failed. We need to write to him on Twitter - "there are no shells, we will shoot with trampolines", he loves such jokes, will appreciate it.
  22. VB
    VB 13 February 2016 11: 07 New
    +2
    Long live the guarantor, the iPhone and their team !!! Maybe it's time for them to move for permanent residence to their beloved west? And they will not be subject to sanctions, the abolition of which they rave and dream about.
  23. igor 1976
    igor 1976 13 February 2016 12: 14 New
    +4
    Well what can I say! If before there were two troubles fools and roads, now there are three of them !!! Home-grown journalists and couch experts also came !!!! I haven’t read so much confused information anywhere else !!!! I will not build myself a wise guy and an expert and I will say only one thing! It would not hurt the Ministry of Defense and the Government of the Russian Federation to create, I don’t know how to put it more precisely, to inform the population in more detail about the current state of affairs in the army and the defense complex! To the question addressed to me a talker is a godsend for a spy! I explain !!! I had in mind a single channel of open information !!! And not chaotic percentages of new equipment which are occasionally reported to us by politicians in the news! Such information for our friends in quotation marks is not secret and was never when! And for us, citizens of the Russian Federation far from this topic have clarified a lot !! And then you read all kinds of crap and your hair stand on end and you don’t know who to believe !!! After all, no one canceled a year’s war !!!!
    1. rubidiy
      rubidiy 13 February 2016 13: 56 New
      +3
      igor 1976 I fully support. In general, something similar has already been created. The TV channel "Zvezda" is called. soldier Yes, cheers-patriotic, but still there is a regular section of the news of the military-industrial complex. And professional journalists are not enough. In principle, they are not. Famous as a class. Here the question is even more for the military, because after all the troubles that have fallen on the head of the regular military personnel over the past decades, many specialists who have been laid off in reserve, who could explain everything intelligently and adequately, probably live in the vastness of Russia. In the West, they are bickering for such places, and in our place broadcasts on military equipment are being made by humanities, from whose primeval ignorance their ears are curled up. It’s much easier and faster to teach a specialist journalism than to make a specialist out of an ignorant journalist.
  24. Algetxnumx
    Algetxnumx 13 February 2016 12: 37 New
    0
    Quote: Spade
    Why?

    How why, at the "prohessor" said! What are you! Do not dare to argue with him! He is mind, no tenderness, honor, no honor, and conscience, no conscience of everything and everything! And you argue, doubt, once again, do not dare! Otherwise, God forbid, will be offended and once again abandon us unreasonable to the mercy of fate, how then will we live here, we will perish and disappear.
  25. cdrt
    cdrt 13 February 2016 13: 29 New
    +1
    a half-dead Soviet research institute that did not find its customers even in the face of a massive upgrade of equipment and technology?
    and even in Rostec did not take. Looks like a completely unnecessary research institute ...
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 13 February 2016 18: 58 New
      +1
      Nowadays, CNC machining centers can do all the extremely complex parts and shells of ammunition - all the processing operations on one machine - of course, in such circumstances, nobody needs their shell projection engineering anymore.
  26. AdekvatNICK
    AdekvatNICK 13 February 2016 13: 41 New
    0
    what shells are there. Everywhere you stick in any industry. We have such a mess everywhere. We have always lived in this state and will live because time is running out and nothing is changing. We are such a people. For 2000 years, we can’t configure nichert normally. Just look around the mess everywhere. And now we’ve gone by the minus.
  27. Legionnaire
    Legionnaire 13 February 2016 14: 42 New
    0
    article plus, we really threw a lot of effort and money into the creation of "armatures" and "coalitions", advertising and scientific articles on this matter have been written quite a lot, but something with the development of the latest ammunition for them is something quiet ... how about this problems will bypass the West?
    1. Cat man null
      Cat man null 13 February 2016 20: 39 New
      +1
      Quote: Legionnaire
      not a few written advertising and scientific articles on this subject

      ... and, nevertheless, nobody really saw the TTX of either Almaty or the Coalition of the CB, right, no?

      Quote: Legionnaire
      something with the development of the latest ammunition for them, something quiet

      It would be strange if it was "loud" ..
  28. ism_ek
    ism_ek 13 February 2016 14: 55 New
    +1

    1. Shells at departure from the channel of the gun barrel have different initial speeds.
    Various initial projectile speeds are obtained for the following reasons:
    a) shells, despite careful manufacture, still differ from each other in weight and shape;
    b) when fired, by virtue of tolerances in the dimensions of the leading belt and sleeve, the projectile is not equally sent to the chamber;
    c) warheads, despite their careful manufacture and weighing, differ from each other both in weight and in their effect.

    2. When shooting, different casting angles are obtained, which occurs as a result of:
    a) the variety of angles of departure;
    b) the diversity of interference;
    c) the presence of dead moves in the lifting mechanism, the rotary mechanism and the mechanisms of the sight.
  29. sw6513
    sw6513 13 February 2016 15: 09 New
    -1
    Now is the time such, it is necessary to keep the gunpowder dry and in the right quantity. But if everything is so started, what is the way out? Urgently and quickly this production can not be done - this is time and money.
  30. Balagan
    Balagan 13 February 2016 18: 35 New
    0
    Wow, everything is so serious with shells ... What, again, steam engine repair plants will sharpen shells, what’s the case?
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 13 February 2016 19: 00 New
      0
      In which case, shells can be manufactured by all plants and enterprises that have CNC machining centers.
  31. EVPanov
    EVPanov 13 February 2016 18: 56 New
    0
    in which case they will give us three-lines and go to the bayonet on the "Abrams"
  32. Alekspel
    Alekspel 13 February 2016 19: 10 New
    -1
    If you look by and large, then the trend towards the destruction of the defense industry has long been clear. Moreover, calculated and planned. Some leaders, such as a dumb hunchback, were used blindly, while others like Chubais were used ideally. Result factories destroyed, research institutes dispersed. It is clear that in three days it will not be restored. Although the Chinese build an ammunition plant in three months, with their own machines. And this is only because the Anglo-Saxons to manage their state can not make their way by definition. While curls, chubais and other rubbish will affect the defense policy of the state, good luck will not be seen. We’ll build thousands of Armats, but there’s nothing to shoot and everything, a bayonet in the ground. What can a dvorkovich understand in the defense industry? And he is vice premier! Of course, when the liberal bastard brings him a paper on the liquidation of some factory for the production of packaging for artillery shots, he will wave it without realizing what he is signing, think of some boxes. This is an option.
  33. Amper
    Amper 13 February 2016 19: 10 New
    0
    It’s just that the enemy broke into the location of the warhead, either you him or he you. Days, weeks are already depriving the outcome ... but not months ....
  34. Student
    Student 13 February 2016 20: 39 New
    0
    Machines do not order their own just because they buy imported ones such as Hermle, Velle, Mudei, etc. and cash in on the rollbacks.
  35. Amper
    Amper 13 February 2016 20: 46 New
    0
    Quote: Alekspel
    If you look by and large, then the trend towards the destruction of the defense industry has long been clear. Moreover, calculated and planned. Some leaders, such as a dumb hunchback, were used blindly, while others like Chubais were used ideally. Result factories destroyed, research institutes dispersed. It is clear that in three days it will not be restored. Although the Chinese build an ammunition plant in three months, with their own machines. And this is only because the Anglo-Saxons to manage their state can not make their way by definition. While curls, chubais and other rubbish will affect the defense policy of the state, good luck will not be seen. We’ll build thousands of Armats, but there’s nothing to shoot and everything, a bayonet in the ground. What can a dvorkovich understand in the defense industry? And he is vice premier! Of course, when the liberal bastard brings him a paper on the liquidation of some factory for the production of packaging for artillery shots, he will wave it without realizing what he is signing, think of some boxes. This is an option.


    As long as the state is - 1% of the population of thieves, bandits and officials, it will be so. If the People do not feel the basis of the State.
    Otherwise, he will wake up one day in the morning in chains .... of foreign manufacture.
  36. Rubber duck
    Rubber duck 14 February 2016 00: 16 New
    +1
    There was a good plant in Moscow "Moscow Machine-Tool Plant Red Proletarian named after A. I. Efremov".
    History is taken from the material "Great Soviet Encyclopedia. - M .: Soviet Encyclopedia. 1969-1978"

    "Founded in 1857 by French entrepreneurs by the Bromley brothers. Since 1870, he began to produce planing machines for his mechanical workshops. Later he produced metalworking and woodworking machines and other products. During the first five-year plan (1-1929), a lathe was designed at the plant." DIP "(to overtake and overtake the capitalist countries.) During the Great Patriotic War of 32–1941, the plant, continuing to produce machine tools, produced products for the front. In 1944, for the first time in the world practice of machine tool construction, a conveyor assembly of machine tools was introduced at the plant. In 1949, without stopping production, a transition was made to the in-line production of a 1A62 lathe. Along with the production of serial machine tools, the plant's staff mastered the production of precision machine tools, vertical multi-spindle semiautomatic devices. In 1956, the plant switched to large-scale production of the new 1K62 machine. In 1966-70, a vertical eight-spindle semiautomatic device, model 1K282, was mastered and put into serial production, a whole range of fundamentally new models of special machine tools were produced, and serial production of machine tools with numerical control was also mastered. "

    My grandfather worked at this plant, told that the machines were produced by thousands, including those sold abroad - to Japan, the Federal Republic of Germany and the Department of Internal Affairs, and other social countries.
    The Germans very much appreciated their machine tools and when delegations arrived, they were of course shown production. They were shocked when the craftsmen "by eye" made details with micrometer precision. At the turn of 80-90, the plant had workshops near metro Shabolovskaya and metro Kaluzhskaya. In the hard times of the 90s, the shops on Shabolovskaya were closed and they simply rusted, after which they took up the remaining areas. In 2012, the plant was finally declared bankrupt and liquidated, the workshop on Shabolovskaya was destroyed, and a business center was built in its place, in the premises on Kaluzhsoky, partly reconstructed, partly new premises for renting offices were built.

    Of course, his fate is not unique, Hammer and Sickle, ZiL, Electrozavod and many others, some offices-offices-offices.
  37. ilyich
    ilyich 14 February 2016 02: 17 New
    +1
    Quote: VB
    Long live the guarantor, the iPhone and their team !!! Maybe it's time for them to move for permanent residence to their beloved west? And they will not be subject to sanctions, the abolition of which they rave and dream about.

    enemy
  38. Anatoliy Kotov
    Anatoliy Kotov 14 February 2016 04: 46 New
    -1
    The article is so-so.
  39. Termit1309
    Termit1309 14 February 2016 06: 32 New
    0
    The article is about nothing at all.
    “From the state reserve of artillery shells to 2006 year left 20 percent”

    Does the author remember exactly what year it is? This is provided that the phrase about the shells is true.
    After working for two weeks in the new year, the team specializing in machine tool manufacturing at the Tula Research Technological Institute (TNITI) was again sent on forced leave for two months - until March March 31. Are the artillery ammunition finished or will they appear on the April agenda?

    For those who wrote a lot in this thread, this institute does not develop new shells, does not produce them. And since the post-Soviet times, judging by the absence of any information about him, he has not created anything new. Well, except for a number of slightly hysterical articles.
    1. PHANTOM-AS
      PHANTOM-AS 14 February 2016 06: 38 New
      -1
      Quote: Termit1309
      This institute does not develop new shells, does not produce them.

      This institute was the only one in the USSR that developed machine tools for the production of shells.
      Quote: Termit1309
      And since the post-Soviet times, judging by the absence of any information about him, he has not created anything new. Well, except for a number of slightly hysterical articles.

      Since post-Soviet times, the state itself has not given anything to create
    2. The comment was deleted.
  40. Termit1309
    Termit1309 14 February 2016 15: 10 New
    0
    Quote: PHANTOM-AS
    Since post-Soviet times, the state itself has not given anything to create

    How many years after the Soviet Union passed to recall? And this institution still exists. That is, the state allocated funds for it, they were paid salaries. And they did something at their workplaces.
    And now, when they began to allocate considerable money for a defense order, the only institute did not need ammunition manufacturers? It’s a direct conspiracy. Or simply the mediocre current leadership of this institution did nothing to rectify this situation, except for dumping in the press?
  41. The comment was deleted.
  42. starper
    starper 20 February 2016 06: 21 New
    0
    The advertised SVP 24 is essentially a modernized gps navigator that in no way affects the behavior of a bomb or projectile in flight. Some sort of ..... t spins up this system as a cheap alternative to really guided or especially homing shells. This is what ......... you need to be in order not to see the fundamental difference between the management of ammunition and pointing the aircraft at a drop point? A legitimate question arises, is it really stupid whoever steers this project? And who is behind this?