Military Review

Cruiser ahead of time

136



“Measures will be taken to strengthen the air defense. To this end, the cruiser "Moscow", equipped with an air defense system "Fort", similar to the C-300, will occupy the area in the coastal part of Latakia. We warn that all the goals that pose a potential danger to us will be destroyed. ”

Lieutenant-General Sergey Rudskoy, Chief of the Main Operational Directorate of the General Staff of the Armed Forces of Russia.

According to Turkish media reports, two submarines of the Turkish Navy, the Dolun and Burakreis, monitor the actions of the Moskva missile cruiser covering the Russian Khmeimim airbase in the Latakia Syrian city in the eastern Mediterranean.

News agency messages from 29 November 2015

The head cruiser of the project 1164, the flagship of the Black Sea fleet “Moscow” was founded about 40 years ago, launched in 1979 and went into operation in 1983. Despite its fantastic age, the cruiser is still in service, performing the most important tasks of covering the group of Russian troops in the Middle East.

It is curious that all foreign peers of “Moscow” were written off about 10-15 years ago. So, the last American “Spryens” long-timer was excluded from the fleet lists in 2006 year. The rest of the 30 destroyers left the combat force even earlier, at the end of the 90s. With the fact that the Spruence was called obsolete, the destroyer was capable of launching a salvo from Tomahawk 60 cruise missiles. Did not help. All were shot at the exercises or simply sent for scrap. The only surviving destroyer is used as a target towing vehicle.

Cruiser ahead of time


Four Virginia-class nuclear cruisers are excluded from the fleet lists in 1994-98.

The Kidd missile destroyers are written off and sold to the Taiwan Navy. What, for ships of this level is tantamount to oblivion.

British “Type 42”. The last four upgraded destroyers of the “sub-series No. 3” were sent for scrap in 2011-2013. Given that we are talking about very advanced ships, one of which made the first in the world (and so far the only) successful interception of an anti-ship missile in combat conditions (the destroyer Glasgow, Desert Storm, 1991).



In what incomprehensible way, the peers of all these ghosts of the past, the Soviet RKR “Moscow”, continues to remain at the forefront, forcing all “probable opponents” to take into account?

An honest answer will sound deadly simply. Due to the obvious state of affairs in the Russian Navy there is no substitute for “Moscow” and, unfortunately, it will not appear in the near future. Even if you immediately rush to build destroyers Ave 23560, the replacement will arrive only in the middle of the next decade. While the fleets of other countries have long been replaced by rusty "spryuans" on Aegis destroyers, "Deringi", "Akizuki" and other "Zamvolty."

And here arises an insoluble paradox. Every time, owners of superers with the Aegis and PAAMS systems react violently to the appearance of Atlanta. They really fear the old cruiser and emit considerable forces to neutralize the threat. The fleets of NATO countries set up heavy tracking of the cruiser and, if possible, try not to approach the “Soviet scrap metal”.



The answer is that the X. NUMX “Atlas” in its characteristics not the same age 1970-80's warships From the very beginning, the Soviet cruiser had such a potential that, even after 40 years, the cruiser could compete on equal terms with any modern Ajis destroyer.

Briefly, the composition of weapons "Atlanta" is represented by three main areas:

- the most powerful strike weapons of the class “surface-to-surface”;
- zonal air defense system designed to cover squadrons and convoys;
- a developed anti-submarine defense system - with an underground and towed powertrain, a helicopter and 533 mm anti-submarine torpedoes.

That in itself was atypical for ships of the Cold War era. For example, the “Spruence” is a “drummer” with PLO functions. The British “Type 42” and the atomic “Virginia” are pure air defense guns.



Further more. The level of technical performance of the systems and mechanisms of the Soviet cruiser was a whole decade ahead of the ships of the NATO countries. And for a number of parameters, the 1164 project has no analogues to this day.

There are no analogues in the world of supersonic anti-ship missiles with kg 500 warheads and 500 range ... 1000 km. The only possible competitor, the American project RATTLERS, still remains in the form of a layout.

Anti-aircraft complex C-300F “Fort” does not need a long view. It was a revolutionary system for the time. In addition to the magnificent missiles and fire control, for the first time in the world, the launchers were in the underdeck space. Which in many ways is related to the "Atlanta" with modern destroyers of the type "Burke" with PU-type mine. By the way, the ammunition of the cruiser consists of 64 long-range missiles. This is a third more than the ammunition of the modern destroyer of the Daring type.

The air defense system is not limited to the long-range Fort. As a means of self-defense, two single-channel short-range air defense systems “Osa-MA” (40 missiles) are provided. For the defeat of low-flying air targets at short distances, the fight against small surface targets, as well as the destruction of floating mines, there are three AK-630M batteries. Each consists of two six-barreled automata with an 6000 firing rate / min. and radar fire control "Vympel".

Ship from the past

In the design of the RKR pr. 1164 there is a number of congenital defects, whose negative influence is becoming stronger and more noticeable over time. The cruiser is aging irreversibly and no longer meets modern requirements.

The ships of the project 1164 no closed air defense circuit. The only station targeting and illumination of targets ZR41 “Wave”, located in the aft part of the ship, creates a “dead sector” on course corners. The cruiser is defenseless when attacking from the front hemisphere. At the same time, ZR41 “Wave” itself also has its disadvantage: it provides guidance of C-300 missiles in the 90 ° x90 ° sector. What makes it impossible to repel a massive air attack from different directions.



At the same time, all three AK-630M batteries are unsuccessfully concentrated in the nose section, leaving the entire rear hemisphere uncovered.

Established on the cruiser SAM “Fort” is one of the early versions of the C-300 with 5В55РМ missiles with a range of 75 km. What was considered a decent result for the beginning of 1980-s is completely inadequate in modern conditions (European Aster-30 - 130 km, American “Standard-6” - 240 km, missile defense “Standard-3” - 500 km, height of defeat not limited to the atmosphere).

It is possible to achieve a significant strengthening of the Atlanta air defense system by modest modernization with the replacement of the ZR41 with a new F1M fire control station with a phased antenna array. The range of the intercept of air targets will be increased to 150 km with a simultaneous increase in the density of fire (simultaneous targeting of missiles to 12 at six targets - against six missiles and three targets at Volna). It was precisely such an upgrade, with the replacement of the bow station of the LMS, that the nuclear-powered cruiser Peter the Great had undergone at the time of its construction (the Fort-M).

Many claims to the means of detection and combat information system. Radar complex MP-800 "Flag" with the general detection radar MP-600 "Voskhod" and the general detection radar MP-700 "Fregat-M". Primitive, by today's standards, general survey radars that have half the detection range of aerial targets, compared with the foreign Aegis and PAAMS-S.


The only known shot of an aircraft carrier killer next to its potential victim.


BIU “Lumberjack-1164” has its own structural defect. Being built on the so-called. “Khutornoy scheme”, it provides only a primary target designation from the survey radar. Air defense systems installed on board operate autonomously using their own radar and fire control devices.

For comparison: the American Aegis creates a continuous information field, connecting together all the systems of the ship and ensuring the work of the only universal air defense system with long-range and medium-range missiles.

There are justified doubts about the capabilities of the Osa-MA self-defense complex. Created half a century ago, a single-channel SAM system with a beam PU with a recharge cycle of 20 seconds. How adequate is this complex in modern conditions? Interception of low-flying missiles is impossible even in theory, since the minimum height of interception is several tens of meters.

Volcano in the ocean

A few important words about the “main caliber” of domestic cruisers.



According to open sources, the P-1000 “Vulkan” does not have significant structural differences from its predecessor (P-500 “Basalt”). The main changes are associated with a reduction in the mass of the fuselage (titanium alloys) and a decrease in the mass of the warhead in order to increase the stock of fuel.

The main objective of the modernization is not associated with an increase in flight range (it is already prohibitive). In addition, the launch of the anti-ship missiles to the maximum range is associated with the problem of target designation: by the time of the missile’s arrival, the target may go beyond the limits of visibility of the Vulcan homing head.

In service with the fleets of NATO countries there are anti-aircraft missiles with a range of interception 200 + km. While a large (fighter-sized) radio-contrast target in the stratosphere is an ideal target for the Aegis marine AIRS. If she can "remove" a space satellite or a ballistic missile warhead, then what is a two-wing anti-ship missile for her?

All this indicates the need to extend the low-altitude portion of the Vulcan flight in order to avoid its early detection by the enemy. A couple of hundred kilometers in supersonic, in dense layers of the atmosphere required some effort to increase the reserves of fuel.



“Volcano” will find out too late. What will happen next?

Theoretically, Aegis will have time to launch a couple of dozen missiles. Approximately the same amount will be launched by another destroyer from the AUG escort. And then another half the same. The theoretically released number of “Standards” should be enough to reflect the triple volley of the cruiser “Moscow”. Plus means of electronic suppression, clouds of fire traps and rapid “Falans” ...

Well, that's all in theory. In practice, the punched superstructure of Aegis-cruiser Chancelrossville, which could not intercept a single subsonic anti-ship missile. The operator missed the message, the air defense officer on duty pressed the wrong button, and then what happened then no one remembers ...

That's because there are afraid of the ancient “Atlantes” with their fierce grin - 16 “teeth” in two rows!

At the same time, you need to start working on a replacement. Otherwise, after another 10, these cruisers will pose a threat only to their crews.

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  1. Magic archer
    Magic archer 4 December 2015 06: 51 New
    29
    One of the few articles in which Oleg praises the Russian ship! But in general, a great article. Suggestions for modernization are quite logical. I would add a replacement for the main caliber from myself. However, like a rocket for more than 30 years, a resource and all that. hi
    1. Blondy
      Blondy 4 December 2015 09: 23 New
      -40
      All this, of course, is good, but why didn’t the mouse cruiser catch the mice when the Turks hit Su 24? Or bring down this fucking Turkish F16 is not self-defense and the UN charter does not apply to it? Or maybe an instruction? Then the question is for the supreme peasants - why didn’t they envisage and did not instruct them to catch mice?
      1. Mera joota
        Mera joota 4 December 2015 10: 04 New
        17
        Quote: Blondy
        Or bring down this fucking Turkish F16 is not self-defense and the UN charter does not apply to it?

        For blondes.
        A ship located at sea (even near the coast) is not able to see EVERYTHING within the radius of its radar because the mountains located (in this particular case with the Su-24) on land create an obstacle to the spread of electromagnetic radiation.
        The UN Charter has nothing to do with it, moreover, physics ...
        1. igorka357
          igorka357 4 December 2015 14: 30 New
          -8
          For Mer Jute, physics has nothing to do with it ...))) but what does the "Fort" range of 90 km have to do with it, and the speed of its response, the same was clever for me in front of the blonde .. hi
          1. mvg
            mvg 4 December 2015 18: 13 New
            +2
            igor357 (8) SU Today, 14:30 ↑

            For Mer Jute, physics has nothing to do with it ...))) but what does the "Fort" range of 90 km have to do with it, and the speed of its response, the same was clever for me in front of the blonde ..

            Igor, you don’t need to be smart .. Write what you think ... Most will understand.
            I am for Sparta ... unsuccessful boyoffs to throw off a cliff ..
            And Lenin and Mayakovsky: When every cook can manage the state - to the scrap
            1. Andrei from Chelyabinsk
              Andrei from Chelyabinsk 5 December 2015 00: 49 New
              11
              Quote: mvg
              And Lenin and Mayakovsky: When every cook can manage the state

              Osspadya, and you go there :))) There was no such thing. The slogan was "Every cook must learn to run the state"
              In general, grandfather literally has the following
              “We are not utopians. We know that any laborer and any cook are not capable of taking control of the state now .. But we ... ... demand an immediate break with the prejudice of managing the state, carrying out the routine, daily work of management in the state of only the rich or the rich families taken officials. "We demand that training in public administration be given by conscious workers and soldiers, and that it begin immediately, that is, all workers, the whole poor, immediately begin to be involved in this training."
              1. mvg
                mvg 5 December 2015 16: 20 New
                +1
                Andrew. Don't touch Grandpa ... It's sacred! And the verse, well, if you can call it that, Mayakovsky, I can project it to you .. (when entering the university I wrote "composition" according to Mayakovsky).
                Cooks and "games" will not be able to govern the country ... there is a limit to what can be taught ..
                Specifically, "Igorok" is better in welders ... and that's not a fact ..
                1. forwarder
                  forwarder 5 December 2015 16: 40 New
                  -4
                  Quote: mvg
                  Don’t touch Grandpa ... This is sacred!

                  Lord, what a nightmare. Shame on you? Where do you get these "saints"? What then can you teach your child? The guardianship authorities know about your sectarianism?
                  1. Region-25.rus
                    Region-25.rus 6 December 2015 17: 07 New
                    +5
                    Well, for example, I grew up on poems about grandfather Lenin .. Even he was a pioneer! And I do not regret it! Everything is better than on Sneakers and consumerism religion !!
                    1. Bad_gr
                      Bad_gr 6 December 2015 17: 46 New
                      +2
                      :)
                      I was first
                      in an asterisk, then - October, pioneer, Komsomol member.
                      He was not a communist. But, in my opinion, at the moment, the Communists are one of the most sane parties.
          2. KVIRTU
            KVIRTU 3 March 2017 21: 23 New
            0
            Support: 90 km above the sea, and over land, in the presence of a complex terrain ...
            Well, if 50 km. The map shows that to the point of defeat Su from the raid of Latakia km 100.
        2. Pilat2009
          Pilat2009 4 December 2015 16: 39 New
          +2
          Quote: Mera Joota
          A ship located at sea (even near the coast) is not able to see EVERYTHING within the radius of its radar for mountains located (

          In addition, the F-16 attack took several seconds, after which he faded into his territory (and perhaps that shot from it). In addition, we do not know what instructions were given to the crew of the ship
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. Aleksandr72
        Aleksandr72 4 December 2015 10: 08 New
        27
        With such a treacherous stab in the back, even the most modern air defense system deployed in advance would not have had time to do anything, except to take revenge - but there would have already been collisions of a different plan. Let me explain the thought: according to all available information, the Turkish F-16 was on duty in the air, waiting for the opportune moment to attack the Russian Su-24. The term "ambush in the air" is far from new; this tactical technique was widely used even during the Great Patriotic War. After waiting for a convenient moment and a favorable angle for attack, the Turkish pilot jumped into Syria, fired a missile into the rear hemisphere of the Su-24 and immediately bounced back into Turkish airspace. The fact that the attack was unexpected is also indicated by the fact that the pilot and navigator of the Su-24 realized that they were being attacked after they received the missile. Why, in this case, the warning system about the aircraft being irradiated by the enemy's radar in the rear hemisphere did not work - the so-called? "Birch" - I can't say anything, I'm not competent - perhaps "Birch" was not installed on this Su-24, or was turned off, I don't know. But one thing is clear - the Turkish attack was unexpected and swift. Under such conditions, no state-of-the-art complex (neither the ship's "fort", nor the S-300, nor the newest S-400) would have had time to respond to the threat in a timely manner, except to launch a missile at a Turkish fighter after the attack and, accordingly, shoot it down on a Turkish territory. I think it is unnecessary to explain what awaited Russia in this case.
        As for the modernization of "Moscow" - I would like to. But ... how smart it is from a financial and technical point of view. I would like to hear a comment from competent specialists.
        I have the honor.
        PS And the cruiser is handsome. I saw him in the raid of Sevastopol last year.
        1. saturn.mmm
          saturn.mmm 4 December 2015 10: 45 New
          +4
          Quote: Aleksandr72
          Having waited for a convenient moment and a favorable angle for the attack, the Turkish pilot jumped into Syria launched a rocket into the rear hemisphere of the Su-24

          Su-24 rubbed on the Turkish border (figuratively), F-16 could attack from Turkish territory.
        2. spravochnik
          spravochnik 4 December 2015 11: 59 New
          +8
          The birch was not found because the missile was with a TGS, and the fighter was off-board radar off-target. That is why he had to come close to our aircraft, and for this entered the Syrian airspace.
          1. saturn.mmm
            saturn.mmm 4 December 2015 13: 02 New
            +2
            Quote: spravochnik
            The birch was not found because the missile was with a TGS, and the fighter was off-board radar off-target.

            The Su-24 pilot did not expect an attack, the Turks could also visually observe, apparently the distance to the Turkish border was small, maybe the Turks entered Syrian airspace, this does not change the essence.
          2. Aleksandr72
            Aleksandr72 4 December 2015 14: 15 New
            +6
            I agree with you:
            The SPO-15LM station (item B006 Birch LXNUMX) is designed to warn the crew about the exposure of their aircraft (from any direction) by anti-aircraft guided missiles (SAM), on-board radar intercept and aiming systems, as well as any radar equipment operating in range of this station.
            Station SPO-15LM provides:
            detection and determination of an accurate bearing of radiation in a horizontal plane from the front of the hemisphere and a coarse bearing of radiation (left and right) from the back of the hemisphere;
            determination of the direction of radiation (above or below) in a vertical plane;
            determination of parameters and operating mode of irradiating radar facilities;
            the solution to the dynamics of rapprochement with the main attacking means or removal from it;
            selection of the main (most dangerous) attacking means.

            Only the tonality of the STR signal is different, depending on which radar the aircraft was irradiated with. Even if the Turkish F-16 turned off the onboard REO, being under external control, the ground radar still irradiated the Su-24, at least for the purpose of guiding its fighter. Another thing is that in order to guarantee the defeat of our aircraft with a TGS missile with its radar guidance turned off, the Turk had to approach the Su-24 as close as possible for reliable visual contact with the attacked aircraft. Therefore, I wrote that during the attack, the Turks jumped into Syrian airspace and escaped from there, having launched a rocket.
            I have the honor.
            1. Bad_gr
              Bad_gr 4 December 2015 21: 49 New
              +3
              Information on this topic sounded on TV:
              our planes, while flying along the Turkish border from the territory of Turkey, were constantly accompanied by fighter locators and locators, including. This was considered normal practice. That is, it was perceived that the Turks were watching their border. Nobody expected that an escort would be followed by a combat shot.
        3. opus
          opus 4 December 2015 13: 28 New
          +4
          Quote: Aleksandr72
          - perhaps "Birch" was not installed on this Su-24, or was turned off, I don't know

          1. Missile warning system SPO-15 “Birch” then what does it have to do with it?

          cartoon of course, but informative

          Exposure Warning System (SPO) "Birch"

          Maybe the all-aspect heat direction finder MAK ("Mak-UT", Mak-UL ", L-136" Mak-F ") and the onboard defense complex" Karpaty "?

          Poppy is not very good against the background of the earth. But that is not the point.
          The bottom line is:
          According to the decision of the commander for military operations, according to the Combat Charter, various military tactical units (tactical groups) can be assigned based on an assessment of the situation:

          GTN may be of the type
          "Strike group"
          "Air defense suppression group on the route"
          "Target air defense suppression group"
          "Cover group from enemy fighters"
          "Jamming group from battle formations"
          and so on.
          As the commander setting and deciding on the fighting decides, it will be so. I can say more simply, for all bombers and attack aircraft, there were simply not enough fighters. And proceeding from the fact that they are working above 5000m, the "cover" was simply stopped, and the cries of the Turks that they would shoot down our planes were not taken seriously, there were miscalculations in planning and decisions, they are so ...


          Quote: Aleksandr72
          possibly "Birch" on this Su-24

          nominally

          1. opus
            opus 4 December 2015 13: 40 New
            +2
            Quote: Mera Joota
            when the Turks hit Su 24 the cruiser did not catch mice?

            1. The comrade who is dressed up under

            just does not read the great work of the author

            Quote: Oleg Kaptsov
            The ships of the project 1164 no closed air defense circuit. The only station targeting and illumination of targets ZR41 “Wave”, located in the aft part of the ship, creates a “dead sector” on course corners. The cruiser is defenseless when attacking from the front hemisphere. At the same time, ZR41 “Wave” itself also has its disadvantage: it provides guidance of C-300 missiles in the 90 ° x90 ° sector. What makes it impossible to repel a massive air attack from different directions.


            Conclusion # 1 for the "blondes": azimuthally, the cruiser had to be in the direction of the PROPOSED place of the "incident."
            2. The interception range is 75 km. Where was the Su-24 shot down? (distance from the coastline and distance from this point, to the place where the cruiser cruised?



            Conclusion No. 2
            3. The Turkish F-16 flew into Syrian territory for 1-2 km, the attack time of the Su-24 is tens of seconds. Conclusion No. 3: if conditions No. 1 and No. 2 were met, then there would be no time to accompany, not to mention already about the time of interception of missiles (flight time)
        4. Ustinov 055 055
          Ustinov 055 055 13 October 2016 09: 41 New
          0
          Ustinov is undergoing modernization, read and you will understand everything, he is the same as Moscow
      4. Forest
        Forest 4 December 2015 10: 14 New
        0
        It was necessary to drive the cruiser almost to Turkey, specially fly the plane, keep the 1 number on alert for 24 hours a day, and not leave combat posts.
      5. g1v2
        g1v2 4 December 2015 17: 07 New
        +3
        The one who hits first always has an advantage, because it is he who catches the moment when the blow passes. Prior to this, Turkish fighters 3 times went the same course, but nothing happened. Most likely because our fighter was nearby. And this time the drying was without cover. But now we have every right to any defense, and in which case we can beat on the lead, as there has already been aggression from the Turks.
        1. Scraptor
          Scraptor 5 December 2015 00: 33 New
          0
          There is always a full right to any protection; now there is a right to knock down everything that represents at least a potential danger.
    2. Ruslan
      Ruslan 4 December 2015 09: 25 New
      +2
      a new ship would look good from UkS to 32 missiles and s-400 to 64. but if you upgrade 1164, then you can replace the volcano with onyxes and calibers.
      1. spravochnik
        spravochnik 4 December 2015 11: 36 New
        0
        Age, age. Such modernization is comparable in value to the construction of a new ship.
    3. spravochnik
      spravochnik 4 December 2015 11: 34 New
      0
      So Zircon, apparently, will be such a replacement.
    4. mvg
      mvg 4 December 2015 14: 14 New
      0
      One of the few articles in which Oleg praises the Russian ship!

      Did you read the article to the end? Or so wanted to mark the first comment that only the first five lines?
      Where do they find you? request
      1. opus
        opus 4 December 2015 16: 07 New
        +1
        Quote: mvg
        Or so wanted to mark the first comment that only the first five lines?

        first on
    5. g1v2
      g1v2 4 December 2015 17: 03 New
      +3
      I always liked the Atlanteans. Therefore, I am for Lobov to take away a lesson from his debts, IF HE IS NOT ABSOLUTELY MUCHY. 4 Atlantes are better than 3. Reconstruction of the former Ukraine is unlikely to be more expensive than a complete modernization of existing Atlantes. Well, an additional cruiser on the same Pacific Fleet does not hurt.
    6. SIvan
      SIvan 4 December 2015 20: 19 New
      0
      Quote: Magic Archer
      I would add on my own all the same a replacement for the main caliber. No matter how a rocket is already more than 30 years old, a resource and all that.

      What for? "What was it"? If there is still nothing like Vulcan in the world, why scatter the forces of designers?
      1. Bad_gr
        Bad_gr 4 December 2015 22: 07 New
        +2
        Beautiful ship. And he looks terrible.

        Power point.
        When describing the Atlanteans, they rarely recall his power plant. In my opinion - a masterpiece. I don’t know if there is a gas turbine on other ships, its exhaust went to steam boilers, and steam turbines were also turned on with the resulting steam. On the shafts, gas and steam turbines are added up. As a result, high efficiency of the power plant.
        1. Bad_gr
          Bad_gr 4 December 2015 22: 32 New
          0
          Quote: Bad_gr
          Power point....

          Add.
          Modern thermal power plants are made in the same way.
          Unless, the remaining heat with steam is not just condensed through the heat exchanger, but is given to the city as hot water and heating.
      2. mav1971
        mav1971 5 December 2015 10: 32 New
        0
        Quote: SIvan
        Quote: Magic Archer
        I would add on my own all the same a replacement for the main caliber. No matter how a rocket is already more than 30 years old, a resource and all that.

        What for? "What was it"? If there is still nothing like Vulcan in the world, why scatter the forces of designers?


        What is worthy in the volcano at the present moment?
        Just do not carry nonsense, about 600 kilometers of range. Its real combat range is only 120 kilometers in low-flying mode. 600 is against the Papuans standing in the raid forever.
        The same onyx, yachont, brahmos are a much more advanced weapon.
        1. sivuch
          sivuch 5 December 2015 16: 27 New
          +1
          Sorry, but this is nonsense.
          Although, of course, replacing with a more modern system like Zircon would be very desirable
          1. mav1971
            mav1971 6 December 2015 19: 38 New
            0
            Quote: sivuch
            Sorry, but this is nonsense.
            Although, of course, replacing with a more modern system like Zircon would be very desirable


            If you tell me, then take the trouble to learn to quote what you are responding to. That would be clear.
            And on the subject of the fact that the range of low-altitude supersonic flight at 3М70 does not exceed 120-150 km - realities.
            500-700 km - it flies at an altitude of 20 km. And such a goal is easily removed by any Amer destroyer.
            Moreover, it can hardly be called low-altitude. Minimal marching - 15 meters.

            The volcano is just a modernization of Basalt. Strong - but modernization.
            1963 Technology of the Year.
            1. sivuch
              sivuch 7 December 2015 00: 41 New
              0
              Are you sure that at high altitudes the same Basalt, not to mention Vulcan, flies evenly, straightforwardly and without interfering? And that the range of 500-700 km is determined solely by the fuel supply. And the guys told me about Vulcan that its GOS is similar granite.
  2. Rurikovich
    Rurikovich 4 December 2015 07: 00 New
    +7
    Any ship is a compromise of the requirements imposed on it and executed in metal in the framework of a given displacement and cost. Because the cruiser pr.1164 is no exception. That the ship remained at its best in today's rapidly changing realities and the development of science and technology, you just need to carry out modernization in a timely manner. And use the ship at the moment in such conditions in which it is still able to show its qualities embedded in it.
    Here I agree with Oleg Kaptsov hi Replacements are needed. Because nothing lasts forever under the moon.
  3. inkass_98
    inkass_98 4 December 2015 07: 20 New
    +2
    A replacement is needed, but there is no money for it. And the replacement period will stretch very well, years on 10-15 in the presence of a finished project and, which is now especially important, engines. You came back, you know, a hundred years ago, when any more or less decent engine had to be bought over a hill.
  4. Good cat
    Good cat 4 December 2015 07: 27 New
    +3
    As usual with Oleg Kaptsov, both ours and yours are either ahead or now obsolete!
    1. Belousov
      Belousov 4 December 2015 09: 00 New
      +2
      Well, the Professor cannot just praise our technique. Until it spits it calms down lol
    2. Mera joota
      Mera joota 4 December 2015 10: 06 New
      +3
      Quote: Good cat
      As usual with Oleg Kaptsov, both ours and yours are either ahead or now obsolete!

      Atlantes were a jerk forward in their time, but that time had already passed. Wheeled steamers were a progress compared to the sailing fleet, but today a wheeled (albeit the most advanced) steamer is suitable only for museums or tourism ...
      1. mvg
        mvg 4 December 2015 14: 22 New
        0
        a wheeled (albeit the most advanced) steamer is suitable only for museums or tourism ...

        You are wrong, the paddle ship looked great in the "Dowry" .. Not even one. negative
    3. lelikas
      lelikas 4 December 2015 11: 41 New
      +4
      Quote: Good cat
      As usual, Oleg Kaptsov, both ours and yours, is either ahead or now obsolete!

      Come on, good article, it’s very, that on the site, recently, it’s very rare.
  5. ICT
    ICT 4 December 2015 07: 48 New
    0
    Quote: inkass_98
    if you have a finished project


    I think this is precisely the problem, because I see no understanding of what the fleet needs.

    yes. and not a word has been said about heavy artillery
    1. Santa Fe
      4 December 2015 08: 09 New
      +2
      Quote: TIT
      about heavy artillery

      How heavy she is

      five-inch universal caliber
      1. ICT
        ICT 4 December 2015 08: 21 New
        0
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        universal caliber


        not the name of the essence

        desired weight or props. that is the question
        1. Santa Fe
          4 December 2015 08: 31 New
          +1
          Quote: TIT
          desired weight or props. that is the question

          Such a caliber - props

          in the past, they were driven by destroyers and tried to fire barrage on planes
          this makes no sense now. For shooting along the coast - the caliber is too small

          Tests of the Mk.71 on the destroyer Hull (203 mm automatic cannon, supposed to be installed on the nuclear attack cruisers CSGN and the modernized Long Beach, mid-70s)
          1. Alex_59
            Alex_59 4 December 2015 09: 12 New
            +1
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            Such a caliber - props

            Well, it starts again ... Tell this to the German infantry, which our sailors used to hollow with this props near Leningrad and especially near Sevastopol. Right now, of course, it will start srach "406 mm suitcases Vs 130 mm pills" ...
            1. Santa Fe
              4 December 2015 10: 55 New
              +2
              Quote: Alex_59
              and this props hollowed near Leningrad and especially near Sevastopol

              and sense

              what could 130 mm have done when 180 mm, 203 mm "Luttsov" and 305 mm Marat were not enough

              the British without much success shot 11 000 114-mm shots in the Falkland War. is this an indicator?
              Quote: Alex_59
              Right now, of course, it will start srach "406 mm suitcases Vs 130 mm pills" ...

              the dispute ended 7 years ago when the Yankees covered up the ERGM program (127 mm guided ammunition) /five inches lack power

              but they look at the new 6,1 '' LRLAP zamvolta with great hope (despite the fact that the zamvolta projectile is twice as heavy as the usual six-inch projectile - 102 versus 55 kg).

              for comparison: the AK-130 shell weighs 33 kg. As if a universal caliber was and remains a universal caliber. And demanding power from him is useless
              1. Alex_59
                Alex_59 4 December 2015 12: 05 New
                +1
                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                and sense
                They won. Fact. :-)))

                Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                what could 130 mm have done when 180 mm, 203 mm "Luttsov" and 305 mm Marat were not enough

                So I say it will start again ... Well, do not compare the warm with the soft, do not! With a microscope, it is necessary to examine the larvae, with a hammer - hammer nails. Not the other way around. The 130 mm for the destroyer was exactly what 180, 203, 305 can a destroyer have? Each solved his task as best he could by the means that is. The infantry and tanks could be hollowed by the 130-mm, but no one else demanded more.
                1. Santa Fe
                  5 December 2015 09: 07 New
                  0
                  Quote: Alex_59
                  They won. Fact. :-)))

                  explode the remaining 80% of the bombs that fell into the ships - and did not win

                  if the args had guessed to bury a dozen tanks on the coast. Could the 4,5 inches of the English win such a duel?

                  In practice - it was necessary to drive bombers from Ascension Island to damage the runway of the Stanley airport / low-powered guns of ships were not suitable for the task (although the target was on the shore)



                  Cardiff after a morning shelling of the coast
                  Quote: Alex_59
                  Well, do not compare warm with soft, do not! With a microscope, it is necessary to examine the larvae, with a hammer - hammer nails.

                  How warm with soft. What was that for?
                  hammer nails with a microscope - shoot 10 000 shells of universal guns without any sense
                  Quote: Alex_59
                  The infantry and tanks could be hollowed by the 130-mm, but no one else demanded more.

                  Do not make me laugh

                  130 mm projectile is dangerous only for armored vehicles of the WWII era and only with a direct hit. But tanks rarely drive along the beach. five-inch landmines in areas - empty

                  They cannot dig out entrenched infantry
                  1. Scraptor
                    Scraptor 5 December 2015 21: 37 New
                    0
                    Won and this is a fact ...

                    These dead tanks would have been carried out if not by naval artillery, then even better by Harriers or from helicopters.

                    Cardiff worked very successfully. In empty places chtoli shot 10 thousand shells? Goose Green surrendered not least because of shelling from ships.

                    The entrenched infantry was hiding from shrapnel with radio detonation in the dugouts in the Ardennes.

                    Is it something that rarely rides along the beach, is it something you even need to dig in?
                  2. Alex_59
                    Alex_59 8 December 2015 06: 35 New
                    0
                    Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
                    130 mm projectile is dangerous only for armored vehicles of the WWII era and only with a direct hit. But tanks rarely drive along the beach. five-inch landmines in areas - empty

                    They cannot dig out entrenched infantry

                    Oleg, do you want to write all the regimental artillery into props? 122 mm D-30 and 2С1 is a props? They have a projectile slightly lighter than 130 mm. Oh well... smile
                    And 152 mm weighing 10 kg is no longer a props, right? Or, too, a props and we and divisional / army art in the props?
          2. spravochnik
            spravochnik 4 December 2015 11: 38 New
            +2
            The fire performance of the AK-130 is very decent.
          3. kitamo
            kitamo 4 December 2015 13: 37 New
            +2
            Such a caliber - props

            in the past, they were driven by destroyers and tried to fire barrage on planes
            this makes no sense now


            maybe, of course, a props, by present times, but it shoots down a target rocket from six volleys into a light one, and given the rate of fire (90 rounds / min) and the burst height, it can quite successfully conduct barrage fire at low-flying targets ...

            and yes ... it’s the AK-130 battery, on such cruisers, the main caliber is called ... =))
      2. saturn.mmm
        saturn.mmm 4 December 2015 21: 11 New
        0
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        How heavy she is

        Do you know why the cruiser is named "Moscow"?
        1. cast iron
          cast iron 4 December 2015 23: 17 New
          -6
          Because guano is not drowning? ;)
          1. saturn.mmm
            saturn.mmm 5 December 2015 02: 16 New
            0
            Quote: cast iron
            Because guano is not drowning? ;)

            Incorrect answer.
            "Atlanta" are quite decent ships.
            Some event happened after which the ship changed its name from Glory to Moscow.
        2. Bayonet
          Bayonet 5 December 2015 06: 59 New
          +3
          Quote: saturn.mmm
          Do you know why the cruiser is named "Moscow"?

          December 17, 1990 the cruiser "Glory" under its own power entered the water area of ​​the native plant in Nikolaev for scheduled repairs. Thousands of factory workers solemnly greeted the ship - the pride of the plant. And no one then assumed that the collapse of the USSR, the prolonged uncertainty of the fate of the Black Sea Fleet, chronic defaults could put an end to the fate of Glory, and the repair of the ship would drag on for eleven years ... And only in June 1997 on the ship Andreevsky Naval Flag of the Russian Federation was hoisted. Prior to this, all these years, the cruiser served under the flag of the Navy of the USSR! Although the Ukrainian admirals tried to persuade the crew to re-take Ukraine and raise the yellow-blue flag. But the crew members always remembered that they were “Slavs”!
          There was not enough money to complete the repair, and the mayor of Moscow, Yu.M., decided to solve this problem. Luzhkov. May 16, 1995 the cruiser "Glory" was given a new name - "Moscow". And soon, over 3,5 billion rubles were allocated for the repair of Moscow. Further, financial support has become constant and increasing.
          In 2001, the missile cruiser, which had become guards by this time, reappeared on the roads of Sevastopol Bay. In the summer of 2002, he went into the waters of the Mediterranean Sea ...
          1. Megatron
            Megatron 5 December 2015 16: 37 New
            0
            Probably the only good thing that the cap did.
            1. igor.borov775
              igor.borov775 8 December 2015 07: 14 New
              +1
              The dear cap saved Severodvinsk this is probably the most important thing in the life of Moscow Measure. And Peter was completed thanks to the cap. And Kuzbass helped take the first step in the revival. Someday more grateful descendants will list everything that the Mayor of the capital could do in the state’s lack of will.
  6. Captain45
    Captain45 4 December 2015 08: 05 New
    +7
    Significant strengthening of the Atlant air defense system can be achieved by modest modernization with the replacement of the ZX41 with the new F1M fire control station with a phased antenna array. The range of the intercept of air targets will be increased to 150 km with a simultaneous increase in the density of fire (simultaneous guidance of up to 12 missiles at six targets - against six missiles and three targets at Volna).
    About "sistership":Mooring trials of “Marshal Ustinov” began
    Repair of the Marshal Ustinov missile cruiser has entered a new phase - since mid-November, Zvezdochka shipbuilders, with the participation of counterparty organizations, have begun mooring trials for individual ship systems, mainly in the mechanical part.
    During the modernization of the ship, in particular, new radar stations were installed. The cruiser received the Podberezovik three-coordinate long-range radar and the Fregat-M2M station with phased antenna arrays optimized for detecting low-flying targets. New radars were mounted instead of the MP-600 Voskhod radar and MP-710 Fregat-M radar, which were part of the MP-800 Flag radar complex installed on the ship during its construction.
    For reference: "Marshal Ustinov" refers to the missile cruisers pr.1164 "Atlant". Its displacement is 11,38 thousand tons, length - 186 meters, width - 20,8 meters, speed - up to 34 knots (about 63 kilometers per hour), cruising range - about 8 thousand miles, crew - 510 people. The ship is equipped with the P-1000 Vulcan anti-ship missile system and the S-300F Fort anti-aircraft missile system. The Russian Navy includes two more such missile cruisers: Moscow (the Black Sea Fleet) and Varyag (the Pacific Fleet).

    http://www.sdelanounas.ru/blogs/71104/#cut
  7. Captain45
    Captain45 4 December 2015 08: 08 New
    -1
    About RRC "Marshal Ustinov" in memoirs:
    Excerpts from the statements of one of the Russian admirals, Gennady Antonovich Radzevsky, commander of the Northern Fleet squadron 7:

    - And the former commander of the RKR Marshal Ustinov did everything he could do - he had already done: the cruiser broke up, made friends with the St. Petersburg policemen, went to the academy, fished out the apartment from the state with illegal methods. So I do not need to comment on all the advantages of this amazing person.

    - Comrade Bonchenko, and your arrival from St. Petersburg from training ended with the fact that the youngest ciliate - a shoe with the RRC "Marshal Ustinov" in the rank of senior lieutenant, took over as the commanding officer on duty at our operational group and in the morning I was greeted with a trembling voice and wild fright on my face ... I sent him to the right place (that is, to you), and he burst into tears, but did not spit out the chewing gum from his mouth, so as not to disturb the acid-base balance in the oral cavity.

    Original source http://alex-oil.livejournal.com/1322303.html
  8. tlauicol
    tlauicol 4 December 2015 08: 09 New
    -2
    Basalt / Volcano volley of 8 missiles. Then another 8. All this facilitates the work of enemy air defenses
    1. Alex_59
      Alex_59 4 December 2015 08: 52 New
      +6
      Quote: Tlauicol
      Basalt / Volcano volley of 8 missiles. Then another 8. All this facilitates the work of enemy air defenses

      There is still something to consider. These 8 missiles diverge along the front for simultaneous attack from different directional angles. An excess supply of fuel is also used for this, and not just to achieve an extraordinary range. In addition, this anti-ship missile is equipped with electronic warfare, details are not advertised, but it seems that this also changes something in the picture of the battle.
      1. Kalmar
        Kalmar 4 December 2015 09: 55 New
        0
        Quote: Alex_59
        These 8 missiles diverge along the front for a simultaneous attack from different directional angles. An excess supply of fuel is also used for this, and not just to achieve an extraordinary range.

        Still not enough. Ships of a likely enemy rarely go alone, and the group will have powerful air defense from all angles. Three or four cruisers 1164 could well have ruffled a target like the American AUG, but one in the field is no longer a warrior. Unless to rely on a peaceful atom: hollowing an adversary of the SBN.
        1. Alex_59
          Alex_59 4 December 2015 10: 15 New
          +2
          Quote: Kalmar
          Three or four 1164 cruisers could well have ruffled a target like the American AUG, but one in the field is no longer a warrior.

          Well yes. A big problem. On this occasion, not one work is written. The distribution of ships between the fleets in the USSR Navy was not certain. If all three ships were brought to the shock formation on the SF - that would be the case!
          True NK in the attack on the AUG were not going to send alone. A comprehensive strike was planned jointly by PLARK and MPA.
          1. The comment was deleted.
          2. red_october
            red_october 4 December 2015 15: 27 New
            +1
            Currently on the lineup
            1. Pacific Fleet: 3 pcs. PRK pr. 949A each has 24 "Granita"
            2. SF: also 3 pcs. PRK pr. 949A each has 24 Granita.

            In cooperation with these submarine missile carriers, each of the individual 1164 or 1144.2 cruisers, at least in the Northern Fleet and in the Pacific Fleet, becomes a serious threat to the American AUG
            1. forwarder
              forwarder 4 December 2015 15: 35 New
              -3
              Quote: red_october
              In cooperation with these submarine missile carriers, each of the individual 1164 or 1144.2 cruisers, at least in the Northern Fleet and in the Pacific Fleet, becomes a serious threat to the American AUG

              And exactly the same threat will be the same underwater missile carriers without old cruisers.
              The smart task, what is an extra link?
              1. saturn.mmm
                saturn.mmm 4 December 2015 20: 30 New
                +7
                Quote: forwarder
                The smart task, what is an extra link?

                American AUG.
                1. Scraptor
                  Scraptor 4 December 2015 22: 36 New
                  0
                  If there is a supersonic SKVVP and konretoplan or high-speed helicopter, and ekranoplan then yes.
                  So far, all this is, without the last, in the ranks of only ... Americans. Iran has small ekranoplanes.
              2. Scraptor
                Scraptor 4 December 2015 22: 32 New
                0
                The Americans have no extra links yet.
            2. saturn.mmm
              saturn.mmm 4 December 2015 15: 48 New
              +5
              Quote: red_october
              In cooperation with these submarine missile carriers, each of the individual 1164 or 1144.2 cruisers, at least in the Northern Fleet and in the Pacific Fleet, becomes a serious threat to the American AUG

              There are no "Granites" on the pr.941 nuclear submarine, although it is probably possible to carry out modernization, but I would have installed "Caliber" there, 250 pieces. That would have been near Turkey, two "Sharks" with 500 "Caliber" all would sit exactly and not commit stupid deeds ...
          3. The comment was deleted.
        2. saturn.mmm
          saturn.mmm 4 December 2015 10: 55 New
          0
          Quote: Kalmar
          Unless to rely on a peaceful atom: hollowing an adversary of the SBN.

          The Turks do not have AUG, they have frigates and submarines, so submarines create some problems for Moscow, the range of the Volcanoes exceeds the range of the Turkish Harpoons, besides, we also have aviation in the region, in these conditions I would not jerk about " Moscow ".
          1. Scraptor
            Scraptor 4 December 2015 14: 33 New
            +1
            They can, as with the Su-24, twitched, these are "Turks" ... and not yet "treated" and under an American umbrella, which, in addition to submarines, also have aviation. And the name of the cruiser is appropriate - who will not drown, burn, destroy Moscow for the revival of the Ottoman Empire?
            Everything is going according to plan, and this is nice ...
            1. saturn.mmm
              saturn.mmm 4 December 2015 15: 56 New
              0
              Quote: Scraptor
              Everything is going according to plan, and this is nice ...

              If Moscow makes a salvo, then there will be no half of the Turkish fleet, this is not from the subtlety of the bomb.
              Quote: Scraptor
              these are the "Turks"

              That's because they are Turks in Moscow and will not climb.
              1. Scraptor
                Scraptor 5 December 2015 01: 40 New
                0
                They can also stealthily on the ship.

                Russians Istanbul (Constantinople) or Ankara have never been burned,
                the Turks burned Moscow together with the Crimean Tatars (vassals to them) several times, and are proud of it, the last time in 1571, the next year they also broke off at the battle of the young. wassat but it was far away, who doesn’t remember, moreover, even in Russian schools Blanca did not teach
                1. The comment was deleted.
                  1. Scraptor
                    Scraptor 5 December 2015 03: 27 New
                    0
                    The plans are the same as with the bomber was.
      2. tlauicol
        tlauicol 4 December 2015 15: 33 New
        +1
        even if I just wrote that 8 is less than 16, would you answer "that not everything is so simple, there is still something to take into account"?
        Basalt / Volcano volley of 8 missiles. Then another 8. All this facilitates the work of enemy air defense - what is wrong?
  9. gispanec
    gispanec 4 December 2015 08: 12 New
    +6
    Thank you Oleg, for a good article ..... it seems to me that Moscow should go with a couple of frigates (Grigorovich) and a couple of diesel engines under them (for the middle-earth) ..... then it will already look like a self-sufficient connection, and a loner always a corpse and it doesn’t matter. Mistral is Kuzya or Petya
    1. tlauicol
      tlauicol 4 December 2015 08: 21 New
      +1
      it’s hard for the diesels to chase the squadron. in the water or something to walk?
      1. Santa Fe
        4 December 2015 08: 38 New
        +4
        Quote: Tlauicol
        it’s hard for the diesels to chase the squadron in water position

        They must be advanced in advance to the desired area.
        1. Andrey NM
          Andrey NM 4 December 2015 11: 26 New
          +1
          Diesels have one big drawback - you need to periodically jump out of the water or work under the RPD, and air-independent (anaerobic) installations are not yet visible (for Turks for sure). Dizelyuhi really used in curtain mode and to cover their coastal areas. As an example - the events in Cuba, when the Americans drove ours, while our submariners acted in difficult conditions. If the memory does not change, they did not find only one submarine. So far, nuclear submarines are better suited to search, escort and destroy aircraft carrier or multi-purpose strike groups.
        2. tlauicol
          tlauicol 4 December 2015 15: 35 New
          0
          Yeah, I quote: "for the Mediterranean". Nice district
      2. Mera joota
        Mera joota 4 December 2015 10: 09 New
        0
        Quote: Tlauicol
        it’s hard for the diesels to chase the squadron. in the water or something to walk?

        Yes, to tow them, give 30 knots. DEPL team gets prettier ...
      3. spravochnik
        spravochnik 4 December 2015 11: 44 New
        0
        In modern submarines, the surface speed is even lower, while the underwater speed will be completely behind.
  10. ICT
    ICT 4 December 2015 08: 28 New
    +1
    Quote: Tlauicol
    in the water or something to walk


    I remember that they are faster in water
  11. Engineer
    Engineer 4 December 2015 08: 30 New
    +2
    Atlantes have one and huge drawback - this is a complex and unreliable combined power plant: two marching turbines M-70, 4 afterburner M-8KF and two permanent steam turbines TUK.
    1. red_october
      red_october 4 December 2015 09: 58 New
      0
      For this it is necessary by hook or by crook to scratch out the same type "Admiral of the Fleet Lobov" rotting in Nikolaev!
      All the mechanisms (so far) of the Ukrainian cruiser will help 3 to hold out for our cruisers, etc. 1164, have been in working condition for some more number of years. Because their replacement with ships of this class will not shine for our Navy for a long time.
      And if you finish building the Lobov and equip it well with Caliber and Polyment-Redoubt, it’s even better. ”What exactly should be decided by the experts after a thorough technical examination of the cruiser.
      In any case, he will not be superfluous to us.
      1. BV330
        BV330 5 December 2015 05: 23 New
        0
        Alas, now these are just dreams. Earlier, earlier it was necessary, even if in 2013 to scratch Yanyk on any conditions, it would still be orders of magnitude cheaper than the gift of $ 3 billion. ((BUT almost five-year-old flocked, everyone was bargaining for pennies, D, B !!
    2. Alex_59
      Alex_59 4 December 2015 10: 19 New
      +1
      Quote: Engineer
      Atlantes have one and huge drawback - this is a complex and unreliable combined power plant: two marching turbines M-70, 4 afterburner M-8KF and two permanent steam turbines TUK.

      Regarding complexity, yes. Regarding reliability - is debatable. KTU on Kuz and 956 somehow behave worse. Because of this, 956 has almost all gone to the needles, Kuzya is constantly crawling for repairs, but 1164 go and go. The main claims to the GEM are mainly connected with the TUK, and this is still a secondary part of the GEM. With the breakdown of the capricious TUK, the marching GTE continues to plow and plow.

      Quote: red_october
      For this it is necessary by hook or by crook to scratch out the same type "Admiral of the Fleet Lobov" rotting in Nikolaev!
      Nafig need him. No matter how beautiful and strong he was, still the last century. It’s necessary to build your new one faster.
      1. red_october
        red_october 4 December 2015 14: 04 New
        0
        Nafig need him. No matter how beautiful and strong he was, still the last century. It’s necessary to build your new one faster.

        And what for we need cruisers 1164 "Moskva", "Varyag" and "Marshal Ustinov" ??? Nafig do we need the Navy ????
        Or do you think that the projects "Leader", "Shkval", "Shtorm" (...) will be launched tomorrow?

        Do you think that modern shipbuilding can take and manufacture any spare part for them (pr. 1164)? We do not know when the GTUs will be ready for the 3rd TFR pr. 11356, the Indians are interested here and promise to buy them for themselves from the Zorya Mashzavod, and then finish building them at our shipyards ... And here is a cruiser for 11 thousand tons of water displacement.

        Regarding "Admiral Lobov" - if they don't blow it up and drown it in spite of us right at the side of the pier in Nikolaev, it seems to me that we will get it for free ...
        1. forwarder
          forwarder 4 December 2015 14: 48 New
          -4
          Quote: red_october
          What for do we generally need the Navy ????

          You pose the question absolutely correctly. In addition to the mosquito surface fleet of the Russian Federation, nothing is needed today. Large ships (more than a destroyer) are capable of eating a serious hole in the budget. But they are not able to influence the balance of forces at sea.
          And the ships are not larger than the destroyer, this is not a fleet, this is a flotilla. So, the fleet (connections of large ships including the entire infrastructure) of Russia today is really not needed. Not at all, and there’s no reason.
          1. amba balamut 77
            amba balamut 77 4 December 2015 21: 54 New
            +1
            A strong Navy is an indispensable component of a major world power. This is not a show off (although they too), it is a necessity. Without ships of 1 rank, we will quickly slip to the geopolitical influence of Uganda, etc., in the size of the Principality of Moscow. As soon as the fleet is finished, it will be easier for any Leberast to justify that the Strategic Missile Forces are the same expensive, and powerful air defense irritates the neighbors. Peter 1 is certainly a controversial figure, but his phrase about both hands has not lost relevance.
            1. red_october
              red_october 5 December 2015 09: 57 New
              0
              Quote: amba balamut 77
              A strong Navy is an indispensable component of a major world power. This is not a show off (although they too), it is a necessity. Without ships of 1 rank, we will quickly slip to the geopolitical influence of Uganda, etc., in the size of the Principality of Moscow. As soon as the fleet is finished, it will be easier for any Leberast to justify that the Strategic Missile Forces are the same expensive, and powerful air defense irritates the neighbors. Peter 1 is certainly a controversial figure, but his phrase about both hands has not lost relevance.


              I will develop your thought: There will be a strong fleet with ships of the 1 rank (!!!) - Russia will also have a foreign policy. The opportunity to justify your sovereignty within our borders. The devastation in the Russian Federation over the 20 post-Soviet years has provoked NATO to surround us with its bases. They don't like the weak. They are beaten and used. If we decided to surrender Syria and wait for ISIS on our territory - and we would be broken and torn, as we tried to do in the 90s and almost broke. It is too early to relax now, but there is a chance and the vector was chosen correctly. The cruiser Moskva off the coast of Syria, no matter how obsolete it may seem, still has nothing to replace (at least until the 2020s !!!) and can show its teeth off the coast of Syria. The ships of this project need to be supported, both in terms of repairs and in terms of deep modernization. For nothing serious 1st rank (which could have not only military significance, but also have a moral and psychological impact by the very fact of being in a certain theater of operations, what is called a "demonstration of the flag") we no longer have, except for these 3 "Atlantes" and now 2 "Eagles" (1 of which is being upgraded). And together with the missile submarine cruisers 949A, for example, there are 3 of them each in the Northern Fleet and in the Pacific Fleet, which depending on the situation can be deployed (we must have time to deploy !!!) to help our strike cruisers, our fleet can already solve more or less serious tasks to counter NATO AUG
              1. forwarder
                forwarder 5 December 2015 13: 31 New
                -2
                Quote: red_october
                There will be a strong fleet with ships of the 1 rank (!!!) - Russia will also have a foreign policy. The opportunity to justify your sovereignty within our borders.

                The USSR has a strong fleet, as it were. But there was no independent foreign policy. Somehow this is at variance with your statements.
                Quote: red_october
                The devastation in Russia over the 20 post-Soviet years provoked NATO to surround us with its bases

                In fact, the main bases are all old, still of the Soviet period. New only so, base jump.
                Quote: red_october
                The cruiser Moskva off the coast of Syria, no matter how obsolete it may seem, still has nothing to replace (at least until the 2020s !!!) and can show its teeth off the coast of Syria.

                Oh, I'm afraid that he will be able to show something else. No matter how hard it is. Pah-pah three times.
                Quote: red_october
                And together with the 949A submarine missile cruisers, for example, there are 3 of them each in the Northern Fleet and in the Pacific Fleet, which, depending on the situation, can be deployed (we must have time to deploy !!!) to help our attack cruisers, our fleet can already solve more or less serious missions to counter the AOG of NATO

                All clear. Why aren't you at school today? 7th grade, this is not a joke, classes should not be missed.
            2. The comment was deleted.
            3. forwarder
              forwarder 5 December 2015 11: 17 New
              -2
              Quote: amba balamut 77
              A strong Navy is an indispensable component of a major world power.

              I completely agree with you. Only here the Russian Federation does not pull this category. 2,4% of world GDP with 2,0% of the population? What major maritime power is this? Anyway, what kind of major power is it? Smaller than Brazil (3,0 and 2,8%) and India (2,65 and 16,6%), and in all major indicators. Mexico is breathing in the back, in 5-10 years it may be competing. Have you heard something about the major maritime power of Brazil? And India? No? Well, that's it. They should be leveled, and not build "Napoleonic plans." And stretch the legs over the clothes.
              Quote: amba balamut 77
              Without ships of the 1st rank, we will quickly slip to the geopolitical influence of Uganda, etc., in the size of the principality of Moscow.

              Is there more geopolitical influence today than Uganda? How much more? Or less? Or roughly equal? Reveal, if possible, this topic is wider. With examples.
              Quote: amba balamut 77
              As soon as the fleet is finished, it will be easier for any Leberast to justify that the Strategic Missile Forces are the same expensive, and powerful air defense irritates the neighbors.

              Do not confuse different parts of the male body. A large surface fleet is basically an instrument of aggression. Aggression is allowed to an extremely limited number of countries in the world. The rest for aggressive behavior are strictly punished, unless such behavior is authorized from above. And this did not happen yesterday, such a state of affairs for a very long time, several centuries. It’s time to get used to it.
              1. Dart2027
                Dart2027 5 December 2015 12: 20 New
                0
                Quote: forwarder
                Only here the Russian Federation does not pull in this category

                Tell about it in NATO.
                Quote: forwarder
                Is there more geopolitical influence today than Uganda?

                Tell us about it in Syria.
                Quote: forwarder
                A large surface fleet is basically an instrument of aggression.

                But is there no nuclear submarine with nuclear weapons?
                Quote: forwarder
                And this did not happen yesterday, such a state of affairs for a very long time, several centuries. It’s time to get used to it.

                Tell us about it the Navy of the USSR
                1. forwarder
                  forwarder 5 December 2015 13: 15 New
                  -1
                  Quote: Dart2027
                  Tell about it in NATO.

                  Why would anyone tell trivialities?
                  Quote: Dart2027
                  Tell us about it in Syria.

                  This is how you would threaten us to reveal the topic. Theme of global greatness.
                  Quote: Dart2027
                  But is there no nuclear submarine with nuclear weapons?

                  No. This is a containment tool.
                  Quote: Dart2027
                  Tell us about it the Navy of the USSR

                  Well, tell us where and when the Soviet Navy conducted an offensive operation with large surface forces. Or a retaliation operation. Or in general at least some kind of operation, except for some "tragic page". A lot of money was spent in floating buckets with nuts. And all in vain.
                  1. Dart2027
                    Dart2027 5 December 2015 14: 10 New
                    0
                    Quote: forwarder
                    Why would anyone tell trivialities?
                    Well, you don’t know them.
                    Quote: forwarder
                    This is how you would threaten us to reveal the topic. Theme of global greatness.
                    That is, you agree.
                    Quote: forwarder
                    No. This is a containment tool.
                    Any weapon is an instrument of deterrence ... Until it is launched, on enemy territory.
                    Quote: forwarder
                    Well tell us
                    where and when the US Navy carried out an offensive operation by large surface forces. Or a retaliation operation. Or even at least some kind of operation, except some kind of war with the enemy, is several orders of magnitude weaker than itself.
                    Quote: forwarder
                    A bunch of money was thrown into floating buckets with nuts
                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMimHIeRnXM
                    1. forwarder
                      forwarder 5 December 2015 15: 03 New
                      -2
                      Quote: Dart2027
                      Any weapon is a deterrent ...

                      Really?
                      Quote: Dart2027
                      where and when the US Navy carried out an offensive operation by large surface forces. Or a retaliation operation. Or even at least some kind of operation, except some kind of war with the enemy, is several orders of magnitude weaker than itself.

                      Learn the story.
                      And break the habit of leveling the US Navy with the Soviet Navy.
                      1. Dart2027
                        Dart2027 5 December 2015 16: 31 New
                        0
                        Quote: forwarder
                        Really?

                        Yes. For example, the presence of our Air Force in Syria is very well restraining a new US project in the sense of ISIS.
                        Quote: forwarder
                        Learn the story.

                        When the Allies opened a second front, it was clear even to the dumbest that Hitler had already lost and only agony remained. Learn the story.
                        Quote: forwarder
                        And break the habit
                        extol the US fleet. He is certainly not weak, but very different from what is shown in the movie.
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    3. spravochnik
      spravochnik 4 December 2015 11: 48 New
      0
      She just had to bring to mind. The Americans later came to the same power plants.
  12. Alex_59
    Alex_59 4 December 2015 08: 47 New
    0
    Standard-3 missile - 500 km, the height of the damage is not limited by the atmosphere
    There is no point in comparing this with Fort. She does not work in the atmosphere at all.

    Significant strengthening of the Atlant air defense system can be achieved by modest modernization with the replacement of the ZX41 with the new F1M fire control station with a phased antenna array.
    Where does the info about 3 targets of 6 missiles for early C-300F come from? In my opinion, from the very beginning for all varieties of C-300 there was an 6 / 12 SLA. The early land C-300PT (still towed) also had 6 / 12.

    The line of interception of air targets will be increased to 150 km with a simultaneous increase in the density of fire (
    The increase in range is actually mainly associated not with radar or a change in the type of missiles, but with a change in the guidance method and flight path. 48Н6 initially also flew only on 90 km, now almost the same rocket flies on 200 km and this is actually not the limit, but at distances of more than 200 km radar already becomes a stop factor.
    1. Santa Fe
      4 December 2015 09: 12 New
      0
      Quote: Alex_59
      There is no point in comparing this with Fort. She does not work in the atmosphere at all.

      At the Yankees, she is included in the ammunition of ship air defense systems. So it makes sense to compare
      Quote: Alex_59
      Where does the info about 3 targets of 6 missiles for early C-300F come from?

      ZX41 Wave
      Quote: Alex_59
      The increase in range is actually not mainly due to radar or a change in the type of missiles, but with a change in the guidance method and flight path.

      Guidance method remained unchanged - at three points, the rocket is constantly held on a straight line connecting the guidance station with the target.

      Guidance method C-300 - telecontrol of the second kind. The target is irradiated by the ship’s radar, and the echo is received by the receiving antenna of the rocket. Unlike semi-active homing, the rocket itself does not calculate the trajectory, but retransmits the received information to a ground station, which processes it and sends radio control signals to the rocket
      Quote: Alex_59
      the stop factor is precisely radar.

      Someone claimed the opposite?
      1. Alex_59
        Alex_59 4 December 2015 09: 25 New
        +2
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        The guidance method remained unchanged - at three points, the rocket is constantly held on a straight line connecting the guidance station to the target.

        The early 48Н6 carried out the declination along the pitch angle towards the target immediately after leaving the TPK and went to the target along the shortest path, which was entirely in the surface air strip with the highest density. As a result, after working out the solid propellant rocket under the influence of aerodynamic forces, the rocket intensively lost speed and at the 75-90 km boundary the rocket speed became minimal for efficient control of aerodynamic rudders.

        Modern 48Н6 after leaving the TPK go to high altitudes, where they make most of the flight in the discharged air, due to which they lose speed at times slower. When approaching the target, the missile decreases, dropping to the height of the target while maintaining speed and retaining the ability to be effectively controlled.

        TTX SUO, RDTT, GOS - unchanged. Range increased from 75-90 to 200 km.

        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        ZX41 Wave

        Link?
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        At the Yankees, she is included in the ammunition of ship air defense systems. So it makes sense to compare

        The meaning of the comparison is not clear. The S-300 has no transatmospheric intercept facilities. The Americans have it. How do you compare "absence of something" with something?
        1. red_october
          red_october 4 December 2015 10: 12 New
          0
          By the way, it was decided to keep the S-300 on the modernized "Admiral Nakhimov", just to bring it to mind as much as possible. Polyment / Redoubt was not installed, and it is technically difficult and expensive.
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. Santa Fe
          4 December 2015 10: 38 New
          0
          Quote: Alex_59
          Modern 48Н6 after leaving the TPK go to high altitudes, where they make most of the flight in the discharged air, due to which they lose speed at times slower. When approaching the target, the missile decreases, dropping to the height of the target while maintaining speed and retaining the ability to be effectively controlled.

          Missiles should be constantly on the line of sight of the target

          range difference due to OMS capabilities
          Quote: Alex_59
          Link?

          http://site3f.ru/2015/02/зрк-с-300ф-форт/

          12 missiles for six targets
          you're right
          Quote: Alex_59
          How do you compare "absence of something" with something?

          They have, we do not and it is not good

          single parameter
          1. Alex_59
            Alex_59 4 December 2015 11: 51 New
            +2
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
            Missiles should be constantly on the line of sight of the target

            range difference due to OMS capabilities

            About the trajectory - this is not what I came up with, this is the developer. And this is confirmed by simple calculations. Velocity at the moment of burning of the solid propellant rocket engine 48Н6 about 2100 m / s. Having calculated the strength of aerodynamic drag and so on, we can get the following.

            When flying along the "shortest path", the missile defense system will be at the target with a distance of 200 km and an altitude of 10 km after 283 seconds of flight and will have a speed of 359 m / s (And actually even less, because I did not take into account losses from gravity and losses on rudders deflected in the stream).

            When flying along a "near-ballistic trajectory", the same missile defense system, reaching an altitude of 28 km at its apogee, will be at the same target (distance 200, altitude 10) after 138 seconds having a speed of 1527 m / s.
            As I suppose (I didn’t calculate this already, but of course I can also be confused by this) the rudders of a rocket having a very small area are no longer enough for effective maneuvering at a speed of 359 m / s. That is why when shooting at max range switched to such a trajectory. As for the LMS, I don’t know what it is with the need to stay on the line of sight, but probably the LMS did not remain without modifications.
            1. Alex_59
              Alex_59 4 December 2015 12: 17 New
              0
              Another catch-up:
              http://www.vko.ru/oruzhie/favorit-strelba-v-podnebesnoy

              I am even modest, it climbs up to almost 40 km at its apogee. Pay attention to the photo at the time of launch - the angle of inclination towards the target by the eye is 70-80 degrees - i.e. maximum care up. There is no mention of any "stay on the line of sight".
              1. spravochnik
                spravochnik 4 December 2015 15: 37 New
                0
                Line of sight is not required. The "forts" have always used "sighting through the rocket". This was determined by the specifics of the use in marine conditions.
                1. Alex_59
                  Alex_59 4 December 2015 21: 14 New
                  0
                  Quote: spravochnik
                  Line of sight is not required. The "forts" have always used "sighting through the rocket". This was determined by the specifics of the use in marine conditions.
                  The land-based S-300 is exactly the same. Sighting through a rocket is the same as on naval forts, naval specifics have nothing to do with it. Oleg simply asserts that the increase in the range is associated with some "fundamental" improvements to the LMS, although in reality these improvements, if they were, then not radical. As the first S-300s were guided by sighting through a rocket, they are still guided. And the increase in the range is mainly due to the transition to a near-ballistic flight path to the target when firing at full range - that is, pure physics, no FCS has nothing to do with it.
  13. Peterhof 73
    Peterhof 73 4 December 2015 09: 48 New
    0
    Probable opponents called him "the beastly grin of socialism." Although it may be a legend. And so yes, it is similar in profile. We loved to place all our weapons in the open. Now the fashion has changed.
  14. gregor6549
    gregor6549 4 December 2015 10: 15 New
    0
    The fact that this cruiser has a lot of "teeth" is good. But these teeth are good only if there is an effective reconnaissance and target designation system, and with this the Russian Navy had and still has problems. Of course, in the absence of opposition, what is available seems to be enough.
    Is there a big question when meeting a strong opponent.
  15. saturn.mmm
    saturn.mmm 4 December 2015 10: 37 New
    0
    Interception of low-flying anti-ship missiles is impossible even in theory, because the minimum interception height is several tens of meters.

    And by chance, the Osa-MA-2 was not installed on the Moskva, the time of commissioning the cruiser is suitable for this modernization, if so, it could work on low-flying targets.
  16. Old_Python
    Old_Python 4 December 2015 10: 48 New
    +1
    Ah yes Kaptsov, oh yes son of a bitch!
    I was surprised. Surprised for the good.
    hi
  17. van zai
    van zai 4 December 2015 10: 54 New
    +1
    The author forgot to mention the Ticonderoga-class cruiser. The old men are still in the service, and they will be more powerful than their Russian counterparts. And another deadly question. How many "Ticonderogues" are in the US Navy, and how many "Cruisers ahead of time" does Russia have? Here I am about the same. Mess, secrecy and window dressing are the three pillars of the Russian State. I'm not a Russophobe, I just say what I see. And I'm not happy, but terrified.
    1. Santa Fe
      4 December 2015 11: 13 New
      0
      Quote: van zai
      The old men are still in the service

      Yankees have already written off the first 5 cruisers

      the oldest existing banker hill was laid in 1984.
      the freshest ticonderoga (Port Royal) - 1994
    2. spravochnik
      spravochnik 4 December 2015 12: 10 New
      0
      In total, there were 6 units with pledged but unfinished. Plus they were also planned for a revised and even more powerful project.
      http://russianships.info/boevye/1164.htm
    3. amba balamut 77
      amba balamut 77 4 December 2015 14: 10 New
      0
      You can read more about the more powerful Russian counterparts. With the strength, alas, you are right. The surface fleet of Russia, after the war of 1904-05 in numbers, was always inferior and greatly inferior to the fleets of partners.
      1. spravochnik
        spravochnik 4 December 2015 15: 28 New
        0
        This is pr. 11960. Enlarged version of pr. 1164 with a modified composition of weapons. The last of the laid down cruisers were already under construction on Project 1164.1. The air defense missile system was dismantled, instead of it and the AK-630, 5 Kashtan combat modules were installed, the hangar was increased to accommodate 2 helicopters, but the towed HAC was dismantled. A new REV was installed. Project 11960, in addition to this weaponry, received a second strike complex - a VPU with Onyx missiles, and the Fort was replaced by the Fort-M.
        1. spravochnik
          spravochnik 4 December 2015 15: 29 New
          0
          SAM "Osa-M" were dismantled.
  18. forwarder
    forwarder 4 December 2015 10: 56 New
    -1
    Despite its fantastic age, the cruiser is still in service, performing the most important tasks of covering the group of Russian troops in the Middle East.

    This is sad that is still in service. And he can no longer fulfill any responsible tasks.
    At the beginning of the last century, such ships were called inpatients. The natives, who with arrows and bows, scare. Take part in the parade. And to fight, no, no. The maximum is convoy convoys. And even then, if the enemy raider was not planned. Same thing today.
  19. Army soldier2
    Army soldier2 4 December 2015 12: 29 New
    +4
    I always enjoy reading comments on articles on naval topics. How many steep Moremans on IN! And TAVKR "Fleet Admiral Kuznetsov" you just Kuzya, and diesel-electric submarines - diesel. The command of the Navy and the designers are so generally defective. Apparently, all the troubles of our fleet are that the couch naval commanders of the VO were not appointed to these positions.
    90% of the comments are categorical nonsense of an amateur. How do you go to the toilet at home with such wide open fingers, because there is only the 70 door there?
    Kaptsov do not like it? And you yourself try to write an article (preferably without spelling mistakes).
    1. Alex_59
      Alex_59 4 December 2015 13: 11 New
      +3
      Quote: Army 2
      Apparently, all the troubles of our fleet is that they did not appoint divine naval commanders of VO to these posts.

      There is such a thing as a "hobby". Someone collects stamps, someone is interested in the fleet. What's wrong?
      Quote: Army 2
      Kaptsov do not like it?

      On the contrary, I like it. We raise his level of knowledge, he - to us :-)
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 4 December 2015 16: 54 New
      +1
      Quote: Army 2
      And TAVKR "Admiral of the Fleet Kuznetsov" you just have Kuzya

      But do not lower Kuznetsov in rank. For he is not Admiral fdota, but Admiral of the Fleet Soviet Union. smile

      Even the side of the TAVKR 1143.5 was not enough to place the full name of the ship on one line. So they cut it ...
  20. SPLV
    SPLV 4 December 2015 13: 04 New
    +3
    At the same time, all three AK-630M batteries are unsuccessfully concentrated in the nose section, leaving the entire rear hemisphere uncovered.

    And here there is some inaccuracy. Firstly, since when is the midsection considered the bow? But it is precisely in the center of the ship that there are two AK-630 installations on board. And, secondly, the hemisphere (back) is precisely the space bounded by the vertical plane perpendicular to the longitudinal axis, approximately in the midsection, so that the unshootable angle from the stern will be far from 180 degrees, as can be understood from the text.
    And if you really really dig, then from the point of view of geometry, the space under water also belongs to the rear hemisphere, to which the AK-630s have not the slightest relation. I believe that in this case the use of the term "hemisphere" is unacceptable, unlike aviation.
    And so, I read the article with pleasure.
  21. d_vader
    d_vader 4 December 2015 13: 57 New
    +2
    BIU “Lumberjack-1164” has its own structural defect. Being built on the so-called. “Khutornoy scheme”, it provides only a primary target designation from the survey radar. Air defense systems installed on board operate autonomously using their own radar and fire control devices.


    Such was the concept in the Soviet Navy. Each system has its own radar. The failure of any of them should not lead to the fact that the ship will not be able to defend itself or attack. This is both an advantage and, to some extent, a disadvantage. What does any URO destroyer cost if one missile hits the Aegis antenna? Or if Aegis is drowned out by electronic warfare? Barge, target for execution.
    All Soviet ships were created with the expectation that guns should shoot, air defense should repel a raid of missiles even when the ship was already hidden under water.
  22. d_vader
    d_vader 4 December 2015 14: 09 New
    0
    Quote: forwarder
    This is sad that is still in service. And he can no longer fulfill any responsible tasks.

    What do you propose to fight with the AUG?
    1. forwarder
      forwarder 4 December 2015 14: 44 New
      -5
      Quote: d_vader
      What do you propose to fight with the AUG?

      Are you sure that you have to fight with the AUG? I categorically doubt it. And I’ll say even more that you won’t have to fight in them in the foreseeable future under any circumstances. There are simpler and cheaper ways to commit suicide.
      Everything that is larger than the destroyer today in the Russian Federation can be considered as wrecking or sabotage. A completely useless waste of effort and money.
      PS. I repeat, there was little use for this old man in his youth. And now, even more so. Some useless expenses.
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 4 December 2015 16: 39 New
      0
      Quote: d_vader
      What do you propose to fight with the AUG?

      Do you hope for a long and prolonged war with the AUG? So this war will last no more than half an hour - exactly the period of time that will be enough for the three Cheget users to make a launch decision, bring it to the attention of the executors and go through the launch cycle.
      A strike on the ACG is a threshold crossing.
      1. Scraptor
        Scraptor 5 December 2015 00: 42 New
        0
        Argentines and even Syrians beat them on AUG a year or two later, and more successfully. To get a warhead from the S-200 over the deck of this "bird colony", it will be just some kind of holiday wassat laughing
  23. d_vader
    d_vader 4 December 2015 15: 38 New
    +1
    Quote: forwarder
    Are you sure that you have to fight with the AUG?

    God forbid that you do not have to! But since 1945 there was no big war because the large ocean fleet of the USSR (especially the underwater fleet) held back the United States. The Americans did not have such ships just because we did not have real aircraft carriers. Yes, expensive, but not quite perfect, but requires cover by destroyers, but! As soon as this ship appears within a radius of 500 miles, all aircraft carriers retreat. He is now in Syria for the most part so that there are no American nuclear aircraft carriers there. And they are not there. It does not have strike weapons on coastal targets; it was originally created to stoke (or scare away) the AUG.
  24. 16112014nk
    16112014nk 4 December 2015 15: 50 New
    +7
    Quote: Aleksandr72
    . But one thing is clear - the attack of the Turk was unexpected and

    The ancient Greek commander Iphicrates, in a friendly country, surrounded the camp with a palisade. And to the question "what are you afraid of" he answered: "There is nothing worse when the commander says" I did not expect this! "
  25. Taoist
    Taoist 4 December 2015 17: 27 New
    0
    Okay ... The Ukrainians of Sagaidachny have been modernized - so now we are not dancing ;-)

    http://obozrevatel.com/crime/15473-bolshe-ne-slepoj-volonteryi-pomogli-modernizi
    rovat-flagman-ukrainskogo-flota.htm

    Can we also start to take off? bully
  26. d_vader
    d_vader 4 December 2015 17: 30 New
    +1
    Quote: Alexey RA
    Do you hope for a long and long war with the AUG?

    Already answered. That's it so that this war does not happen and such ships are needed. Until at least until we can destroy the AUG without these huge monsters. Caliber or other modern weapons ... Extending their lives, modernization is essential. To restrain the arrogance of NATO for a certain period.
  27. Urals
    Urals 4 December 2015 17: 32 New
    0
    Pleasant to read and adequate in essence article. Created essentially as a cheap version of Orlan, got a very balanced and beautifully beautiful cruiser in architecture. I must agree with the author that time takes its toll but they are worth it to get a second wind in the form of modernization.
  28. RUSEV
    RUSEV 4 December 2015 18: 01 New
    -1
    Russia is not a sea power! Here it is always at times inferior to NATO
  29. GraveBezKresta
    GraveBezKresta 4 December 2015 22: 08 New
    +3
    Yes, the Soviet Union had a glorious fleet. But Putin has nothing to brag about when they were bursting with money in the Kremlin, neither cruisers nor aircraft carriers they built. Only Abramovich's yachts and other crap. And now there will be no large ships by definition. And the "friends" threw everything apart and 3/4 of the world fell on us. And the fleet of the Soviet Union fell as a result of betrayal and the golden calf. Remember the Varyag. The Chinese bought for 20 million dollars with the ship being 80% ready.
  30. Lord of Wrath
    Lord of Wrath 4 December 2015 22: 29 New
    -1
    So and "ahead of the time." One look at the placement of missiles and it is already clear that it is outdated before it can get off the stocks. Here is the project 1144 with vertical shafts really a breakthrough.
    Well, then I will gain minus ....
    Explain to me WHY?
    We believe in Russia and love her, but WHY ??
    -doing a losing business in advance by intervening for a dictator in a distant and not once close mentality country?
    - bomb the militants, knowing that they love relatives who have a dramatic change in their attitude towards Russia, and repeat the path of the Americans, who the whole Arab world hates for this, including the long-standing ally of the states of 180 with millions of Pakistan?
    -Send 30 summer ships armed with 30 missiles a year ago and planes no younger? Let’s say participation in the war is understandable in order to test new weapons systems ... but then junk .. which has not been produced for 25 years ..
    1. Cat man null
      Cat man null 4 December 2015 22: 44 New
      0
      Quote: Lord of Wrath
      Explain to me WHY?

      Quote: Lord of Wrath
      -doing a losing business in advance by intervening for a dictator in a distant and not once close mentality country?

      Well, so and "in advance losing". What for? From what is on the surface:

      - military bases in a key, from many points of view, area
      - gas pipeline and other goodies (EMNIP, there were some contracts with Gazprom and railway workers, which were covered with the beginning of the database)

      Quote: Lord of Wrath
      - bomb the militants, knowing that they love relatives who have a dramatic change in their attitude towards Russia, and repeat the path of the Americans, who the whole Arab world hates for this, including the long-standing ally of the states of 180 with millions of Pakistan?

      - on militants and "relatives" will be put with a parting; not so much of them, in fact, and a lot
      - about the "path of the States" - that's not necessary .. just remember how many Arab countries the States stirred up. With the actions of Russian aviation in Syria - well, no comparison

      Quote: Lord of Wrath
      -Send 30 year old ships armed with missiles 30 years ago and planes no younger?

      - combat practice. It is not able to replace anything
      - demonstration of the combat capability of the Russian Army. "So that fools do not climb"

      Something like this, if briefly yes
      1. Lord of Wrath
        Lord of Wrath 4 December 2015 22: 56 New
        -2
        Quote: Cat Man Null
        military bases in a key, from many points of view, area

        is it true? why is there no money to maintain a base in Cuba? and at the base in Syria in 2011, as many as 4 people were
        Quote: Cat Man Null
        gas pipeline and other goodies

        it’s definitely not enough)))) Well, yes, the rise in price of gasoline in Russia is explained by its deficit. That is, there are enough production capacities, but not enough for processing.
        Quote: Cat Man Null
        on militants and "relatives" will be put with a parting; not so much of them, in fact, and a lot

        tell those who did not fly from Egypt. And in the Asian world, 7 tribes are almost a close relative. Remember Chechnya and how many rabble have come in large numbers, which we call "mercenaries"
        Quote: Cat Man Null
        demonstration of combat effectiveness of the Russian Army.

        What is the combat readiness? On 30 summer rusty buckets, not even equipped with warning systems against r / l exposure?
        1. Cat man null
          Cat man null 4 December 2015 23: 15 New
          0
          Quote: Lord of Wrath
          why is there no money to maintain a base in Cuba?

          Is this Lourdes? Technology has stepped far, for 15 years. He doesn’t need, sort of.

          This is not I said, this is Putin said wink

          Quote: Lord of Wrath
          it’s definitely not enough)))) Well, yes, the rise in price of gasoline in Russia is explained by its deficit. That is, there are enough production capacities, but not enough for processing.

          It wasn’t about that at all, if you didn’t understand - further conversation does not make sense.

          Quote: Lord of Wrath
          tell those who did not fly from Egypt. And in the Asian world, and 7 tribes are almost a close relative

          - about "who did not fly" - there is still an investigation. So don't be so unambiguous ..
          - about the 7th knee - and in their mouth are legs, up to the knee, adversaries ..

          Quote: Lord of Wrath
          Remember Chechnya and how many rabble have come in large numbers, which we call "mercenaries"

          So they were mercenaries and were, cho, no ?? Or are they still on naked enthusiasm all flocked there ?? belay

          Quote: Lord of Wrath
          What is the combat readiness? On 30 summer rusty buckets, not even equipped with warning systems against r / l exposure?

          I am not an aviator nirazu, but, IMHO, so far these "buckets" are quite fulfilling their assigned task.

          That's something like yes
    2. Dart2027
      Dart2027 4 December 2015 23: 46 New
      0
      Quote: Lord of Wrath
      engage in a pre-losing business intervening for a dictator

      If he were a dictator, he would not have lasted so long that different liberals would not have spoken, and about the close mentality, I recommend reading the statements of the current leaders of Ukraine and recalling how much Europe has craped us.
      Quote: Lord of Wrath
      bomb the militants, knowing that they love relatives

      Bomb the militants that the United States brings to our borders while they are far better than at hand.
      Quote: Lord of Wrath
      and planes no younger

      Aircraft are not younger? Read the composition of the air group.
    3. cast iron
      cast iron 5 December 2015 02: 20 New
      -2
      1. "30-year-old" anti-ship missiles "Basalt" still have no analogues in the world in terms of performance characteristics. So shake it down, Russophobushka.

      2. 30-year-old aircraft are in no way inferior to the same 30-year-old NATO "super" aircraft. And Su34 has never been 30 years old. Once again you will rub on this matter.

      3. "Old" is only in your ignorant perception. The electronic stuffing of the "junk" has been updated and is undergoing combat tests successfully. As well as other military systems.

      4. We harnessed for Assad, because we do not need 400 000 Mujahideen on the border with Tajikistan and Uzbekistan. Wipe yourself about this.
      1. Scraptor
        Scraptor 5 December 2015 02: 34 New
        +1
        Turks in the Caucasus lost tens of thousands of their citizens in the ranks of gangs, even Chechens didn’t have such losses among militants

        It’s better to get bogged down in Syria ... and even better - let them sit at home and drink their coffee or something else.
      2. Lord of Wrath
        Lord of Wrath 6 December 2015 04: 08 New
        -2
        Even "uryaks" sometimes need to turn on their heads, and not dump quotes from a zombie box on others
        Quote: cast iron
        Electronic stuffing "old" is updated and passes combat tests successfully
        And where is it updated? In the form of a captain’s mobile phone in Moscow with a processor, once in 1000 is more powerful than the entire ship BIOS?
        Quote: cast iron
        We harnessed for Assad, because we do not need 400 000 Mujahideen on the border with Tajikistan and Uzbekistan. Wipe yourself about this.

        Well, this is generally boorish imbecilism)) Well, the Islamic State Islamic Institute is Uzbek-Takzhiki, when there’s a wonderful goal with the holy land at hand ???? Moreover, for Israel, the states will enter into a full-scale war. And after Israel, a member of NATO in the form of Turkey is still in line, and Erdongan is unlikely to voluntarily leave the government))
        And the idea of ​​an Islamic state really warms the souls of the "faithful". But that's exactly the idea. And as soon as this surrogate grows, as always, the national question will come out, plus to all the Shiites, Sunites, Alawites, no one will reconcile either.
        1. Cat man null
          Cat man null 6 December 2015 04: 46 New
          0
          Quote: Lord of Wrath
          And where is it updated? In the form of a captain’s mobile phone in Moscow with a processor, once in 1000 is more powerful than the entire ship BIOS?

          You are definitely not mistaken in the calculations? Can you give details? Well, very interesting ..

          Quote: Lord of Wrath
          Well, on a fig ISIS Uzbek-takzhiki, when near a wonderful goal with the holy land?

          Are they crazy, do you think? Climbing Israel is an extremely sophisticated method of suicide, for ISIS - for sure.

          Quote: Lord of Wrath
          Moreover, for Israel, the states will enter into a full-scale war. And after Israel, another member of the NATO in the form of Turkey is in line

          I’m losing the thread of your thoughts .. are they really suicides, are these ISIS ??

          Quote: Lord of Wrath
          as soon as this surrogate grows, the national question will always come out, plus to all, Shiite-Sunites-Alavites, too, no one will reconcile

          ISIS is mostly Sunni. Extreme such. They try to "pacify" all others forever, as it were.

          In short - you got some garbage belay
          1. Lord of Wrath
            Lord of Wrath 6 December 2015 06: 42 New
            -1
            Quote: Cat Man Null
            I’m losing the thread of your thoughts .. are they really suicides, are these ISIS ??

            And did you have this idea in order to lose it? Do not grandmother measure everything.
            The Caliphate and the war against the infidels is the goal. And the dead for her place in paradise.
            Watch the series Rodina 5 season 1 episode from 10 minutes. Spend exactly 3 minutes. Even "stupid" Americans have already gotten to times in the films show.
            from the 7 century, one strategy is to destroy the infidels. And the book is the same all the way and they read it every day.

            And in your opinion, it turns out that the goal is Russia? Is it easier to "climb" on it than on Israel? Less suicidal? "Twilight zone")) Hammer on the zomboyaschik before it's too late.
            1. Bad_gr
              Bad_gr 6 December 2015 10: 42 New
              0
              The more powerful Isil, the more he will have fans in countries where the main religion is Islam. Such a fan will come to power, ask for help, Igil will support - that’s the complete country of frostbitten mercenaries who come not to support agriculture, but to kill.
          2. Lord of Wrath
            Lord of Wrath 6 December 2015 08: 11 New
            +1
            Quote: Cat Man Null
            You are definitely not mistaken in the calculations? Can you give details? Well, very interesting ..

            why be wrong then)) Is it only in a smaller direction. Electronics becomes obsolete instantly.
            Even Aegis (Aegis), oh yes everyone calls him Aegis, is far from new. Google AN / UYK-43 it has 2.3 mega flops, and Intel i7 has 130 gigaflops
            Our electronics was killed by the cloning of IBM 360 and the creation of a Unified Computer System from it.
            But the military still has 5E26 with 1.5 million operations per second and 32 kbytes of memory.
            Well, even in the Black Sea Fleet, the Bulgarian Pravets-16 was used.
            For example, what is the C300 complex equipped with: 1969 development of the year: 3 processor, 1 million ops / s, 36-bit (4 bits - control) word, RAM 32 kbps, memory of 64 kbps instructions. Case volume 2,5 m³
            1. Sirgrey
              Sirgrey 8 December 2015 22: 24 New
              0
              Quote: Lord of Wrath
              C300: development of 1969: 3 processors, 1 million op./s, 36-bit (4 bits - control) word, 32 kb RAM, 64 kb command memory. Case volume 2,5 m³

              more correct, 3 eight-bit processors and a control 4-bit microcircuit.
              And RAM in bits, that is, 3 KB of RAM
          3. Lord of Wrath
            Lord of Wrath 6 December 2015 08: 21 New
            0
            Quote: Cat Man Null
            ISIS is mostly Sunnis. Extreme such

            Just don't be like the Americans and divide into "moderate" and not so)
        2. Dart2027
          Dart2027 6 December 2015 11: 48 New
          0
          Quote: Lord of Wrath
          And where is it updated?
          Tell me the source of your information?
          Quote: Lord of Wrath
          Well, on a fig ISIS Uzbek-Takzhiki
          And you do not know, but there is no ISIS, but are there US creatures whom they dream to bring to our borders?
          Quote: Lord of Wrath
          Even "uryaks" sometimes need to turn on their heads
          It would not hurt you.
          1. Lord of Wrath
            Lord of Wrath 6 December 2015 12: 03 New
            0
            Quote: Dart2027
            And you do not know, but there is no ISIS, but are there US creatures whom they dream to bring to our borders?

            Even there is nothing to argue) "cunning plan" however winked
            Except that the route to our borders could be shortened. Personally, I would start with Pakistan. There is enough population (180 million) and savagery with fanaticism is enough. For me personally, it was a revelation that in Pakistan, the government controls only large cities and the roads between them, and the rest is tribal territory.
            Oh for sure) in Afghanistan it’s already the Americans. And now, even from the side of Syria-Turkey they are breaking through ... adversaries are taking ticks
            1. Dart2027
              Dart2027 6 December 2015 16: 29 New
              0
              Quote: Lord of Wrath
              Even there is nothing to argue) "cunning plan" however

              Nothing new, "white people" always try to rake in the heat with someone else's hands.
              Quote: Lord of Wrath
              Personally, I would start with Pakistan
              Pakistan is in a state of sluggish fighting with India, which is sleeping and sees how to regain at least part of the territories seized from it after the British occupation. If a serious dump begins there, then the Indians will intervene, moreover, solely guided by their own benefit. On the other hand, he has Iran, which is on its knives with the states and will oppose any of their undertakings at its borders, again for reasons of its own benefit.
              But on the other hand, Saudi Arabia is a long-standing and faithful vassal, Iraq is already ruined, Turkey, in general, all resources and bases are at hand.
      3. mav1971
        mav1971 6 December 2015 19: 50 New
        +1
        Quote: cast iron
        1. "30-year-old" anti-ship missiles "Basalt" still have no analogues in the world in terms of performance characteristics. So shake it down, Russophobushka.

        2. 30-year-old aircraft are in no way inferior to the same 30-year-old NATO "super" aircraft. And Su34 has never been 30 years old. Once again you will rub on this matter.

        3. "Old" is only in your ignorant perception. The electronic stuffing of the "junk" has been updated and is undergoing combat tests successfully. As well as other military systems.

        4. We harnessed for Assad, because we do not need 400 000 Mujahideen on the border with Tajikistan and Uzbekistan. Wipe yourself about this.


        To argue with the fool about what he is not aware of is quixotic.
        But I will say that I have a specialty "System Engineer" for one of my diplomas. And I know perfectly well from the inside what electronics really is.
        And how much time and development of the element base has passed at the moment of the beginning of development.
        Basalt - development beginning of the 1963 year. 50 years. Volcano - almost a power upgrade. Elemental base level of the late 70's.
        Su-34 - development of 1986 year. The modernization of avionics on a relatively modern is planned to begin in the 2017-2018 years.
        We have Mujahideen - the entire Caucasus and several million Tajiks, Uzbeks and other migrant workers. And they are all in Russia. Already. Here. and now.
        All food warehouses and vegetable depots - only guest workers work.
        At all the huge distribution centers of the grocery chains of Magnit, Х5 (pyaterochka. Intersection, carousel) Dixie, Auchan - guest workers work.
        Do you imagine that 90% of the population receives (buys) food that goes through migrant workers?
        and they are all here. And there are millions of them.
        And if you want a certain center - it has a real practical opportunity to get a coordinated sabotage throughout Russia. At once on 120 million people.
        That's what you need to be afraid of.
        That is where the real security of the country is.
        And not some ten thousand Mujahideen there, whom you increased right up to 400 thousand.
        If you are not in the subject - do not pop.

        Enough idiotic hatred.
        And for Russophobia - clave in the teeth.
    4. mav1971
      mav1971 5 December 2015 12: 30 New
      +1
      Quote: Lord of Wrath

      We believe in Russia and love her, but WHY ??
      -doing a losing business in advance by intervening for a dictator in a distant and not once close mentality country?


      You see, we, namely 86% of the population of this country, do not consider him a dictator.
      We, these are completely different people, from adolescents to retirees, from turners to system administrators, librarians and mathematicians, and kindergarten workers.
      With a completely different education, a completely different level of income.
      Well, we do not consider him a dictator.
      1. Lord of Wrath
        Lord of Wrath 6 December 2015 03: 56 New
        0
        Quote: mav1971
        You see, we, namely 86% of the population of this country, do not consider him a dictator.

        representatives of the intellectual majority))))) who like to hang up labels and draw conclusions, nevermind without understanding the problem.
        as always, in Russia all 2 problems are expensive and these same representatives (from a teenager to a pensioner, etc.) winked
        1. Dart2027
          Dart2027 6 December 2015 11: 52 New
          +1
          Quote: Lord of Wrath
          representatives of the intellectual majority))))) who like to hang up labels and draw conclusions, nevermind without understanding the problem.
          Are you this to yourself? In Russia, one problem is the enemies of the people, the rest is so unpleasant, but not scary.
  31. sivuch
    sivuch 4 December 2015 22: 56 New
    +2
    In the mid-80s, I worked in the Northern Bureau. And when we, young specialists, made an excursion to the KB museum, the guide, a guy from department 11 said in an apologetic tone that there was a categorical demand of the Commander-in-Chief to push 16 Basalts into 12 tons of displacement From here and many design decisions. From here and many design decisions, including obviously not an appropriate PLO. Ancient Titanium and the tail from Platinum are, to put it mildly, not a lot. There is only one helicopter, and that is for TsU.
    I didn’t hear about the animal’s grin, but sometimes they called it a Fence. Indeed, it looks similar from some angles. By the way, this placement of missiles was considered a serious drawback. A single missile will fall into a container (non-empty, of course) - it will not greet the entire order.
    And the author, by the way, thinks in vain that Basalt flew at high altitudes in a straightforward and uniform manner, without using electronic warfare, depicting a target for anti-aircraft gunners.
    1. Santa Fe
      5 December 2015 08: 38 New
      +1
      Quote: sivuch
      . A single missile will fall into a container (non-empty, of course) - it will not say hello to the whole order.

      Can not be

      explosion force is inversely proportional to the third power of the distance

      intervals in the order - not less than a mile
      1. tlauicol
        tlauicol 5 December 2015 08: 57 New
        0
        Sivuch, probably, had in mind such an order, but most likely, Atlantov simply spoke of vitality.
        1. Santa Fe
          5 December 2015 09: 25 New
          +1
          This is a staged photo.
          going in such a "order", ships cannot use weapons - even purely under the terms of electromagnetic compatibility of antenna devices

          Atlantis survivability - burn from one RCC. like any burke
        2. sivuch
          sivuch 5 December 2015 16: 36 New
          0
          You know, I thought and decided that I expressed myself too much. If there are specialists in explosives, let them say more specifically. First, I’m still sure that the explosion of one anti-ship missile with a conventional warhead (+ rocket fuel, which is actually also explosive) will cause the detonation of the rest of such missiles. The fragmentation of fragments can be kilometers. But what will happen to missiles with special warheads, and there were usually 25% of them, I don’t know. Moreover, NPs, specific warheads were not only on anti-ship missiles
    2. tlauicol
      tlauicol 5 December 2015 09: 39 New
      0
      but how else can he fly at long range? to maneuver on a march or fly by the water - what's the difference: it doesn’t reach anyway
  32. Blondy
    Blondy 4 December 2015 23: 16 New
    0
    What are all the reinforced concrete experts. And for me, the main weapon here is brains, in particular, the organization of TB when planning operations. If, for example, the cruiser initially "did not shmogla", then why the C 400 were installed after, and not before.
  33. Litsvin
    Litsvin 5 December 2015 00: 06 New
    +2
    When I "went" on the ship of the Mediterranean squadron, the "Moscow" was afloat only for the first year of her life - the youngest. We often accompanied this handsome cruiser, including "to the shores of friendly blacks." Only he has worked out his resource for a long time. Ships are aging like people - he needs to take a place of honor in the Sevastopol Bay and become a museum of military glory of the USSR Navy. One main drawback of this ship was correctly noted - it is impossible for 1 thousand tons. hang everything and a lot. And hence the conclusion - you need to prioritize the power of the ship's arming and adjust the hull and the power plant for it. In other words, first you need to "calculate" shock and defensive weapons, an effective system for detecting and tracking targets without the presence of blind spots, "cooperating" all this into a single combat system, and only then for this weapon system to design the hull of the required displacement and the architecture of deck superstructures, and the third step is to select a "machine" - a power plant that will move all this through the water.
    Taking into account modern composite materials and new light alloys, it is possible to build a truly "correct" "average" cruiser with powerful combined weapons and a powerful oil-fueled turbine power plant, within about 20-25 thousand tons. How much money will it be? It may be expensive, but state defense is expensive. If a new project is built "in bulk" (in series), then the unit costs will be much lower. And such ships need at least "one piece" for each US strike aircraft carrier formation. If you want to have a real oceanic fleet, you have to fork out. By the way, even the mighty USSR could not build enough such ships. The "paper doctrine of the USSR Navy" was at variance with the actual number of such cruisers at sea. Try it, it might work ...
  34. Serg65
    Serg65 5 December 2015 08: 30 New
    +2
    Hello Oleg. Are you, as always, galloping through Europe? The whole point is Oleg, that you are not a sailor! The sailor talks about his ship with much more tenderness than about his wife. Yes, the bed, the RRC "Moscow" is already outdated, for 32 years already it has been serving its Motherland. But believe me, it's too early to write him off, although he is old, his teeth are still intact !!! I will, with your permission, act as a lawyer for the glorious cruiser. So..
    In the late 60s of the last century, the Soviet Navy faced an urgent need for missile ships in the far sea zone to counter the expanding US naval expansion. One of these ships was the RRC pr.1164, it occupied an intermediate position between the "Orlans" and "Sarychs", it was supposed to build 6 cruisers in total; "Slava" (serial number 2008), "Admiral of the fleet Lobov" (serial number 2009), he is from 5.11.1986. "Marshal Ustinov", "Chervona Ukraine" (serial number 2010), he is from 9.02.1996. GRKR "Varyag", "Komsomolets" (serial number 2011), it is from 23.03.1985. "Admiral of the fleet Lobov", "Russia" and from 30.12.1987. "October Revolution" (serial number 2012), "Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Gorshkov" (serial number 2013). The lead cruiser of this project became the 5th ship in the history of Russia to receive the glorious name "Slava". On January 30, 1983 Rear Admiral Myasoedov N.B. (the last commander of the Slava cruiser) raised the naval flag on the new cruiser.
    The first exit of "Slava" to the BS (at the same time an inter-fleet transition) caused a real sensation among NATO members. When meeting with a potential target, the British aircraft carrier R05 "Invincible", the commander of the latter sent a semaphore to "Glory": "Delighted. Commander". The prototype of the "Atlanta" was the BOD pr. 1134-B, the "bukari" were distinguished by their excellent seaworthiness, which was supported during the passage of the "Glory" of the Bay of Biscay.
    1. Serg65
      Serg65 5 December 2015 09: 44 New
      +4
      Continued speech defender ..
      The first commander of the "Slava" was VO Yenko, a destroyer at heart. What he did with the cruiser was a must see !!!! No one except "Slava" flew into the Main Base at full speed, Yenko never asked for tugs to be set up against the wall, approached the pier so that the boatswains could only tie a "bow" on the coastal bollard. He conducted rocket firing immediately upon entering the training range and immediately turned to the opposite course, confident in 100% of his missiles hit. Cruising 130s smashed the training shield into the trash in a matter of seconds, preventing the MB crew from catching a couple of red mullets. It was the presence of "Slava" in the KUG in the area of ​​the Gulf of Sidra in 1986 that prevented the Americans from using carrier-based aircraft in full during the bombing of Libya; the sale to the Americans of the T-80 tank already loaded on transport. In 80 "Slava" was delivered for repair and modernization to the plant named after Of the 1991st Communard (Nikolaev), but then what happened ... the collapse of the Union, lack of money, the constant urge of Ukraine to seize the ship for itself, and only the intervention of Moscow Mayor Luzhkov made it possible to somehow finish the repair and return to Sevastopol. At the suggestion of Luzhkov, "Slava" received a new name "Moscow" and became a guards ship. By the way, the guards flag "Moscow" inherited from the GBPK "Krasny Kavkaz". the fleet has always been distinguished by the continuity of generations. Of course "Moskva" has long deserved both repair and modernization, but there is no one to replace it at the moment, so it runs on the waves, and on the seas an old but still formidable glorious cruiser!
      1. igor.borov775
        igor.borov775 5 December 2015 18: 52 New
        +1
        Hi!! nobody argues about the capabilities of this warship. Let us honestly admit these ships are the fruit of the design idea of ​​those distant years now. The main enemy of the USSR Navy was submarines and the fight against them was the main one. Having gained experience in creating BOD ships, ships of the Glory type became the next step. They became the core in the fleet's diverse forces group. Moreover, a unique control system was found. In the 70s, these fleet forces were always close to the main enemy of the AUG surface ships. The Yankees were not in vain excited about having not so much displacement, our ships gained serious striking power. They persistently solved this most serious problem and have already found a solution. PROJECT SHIELD OF THE GORGO. We must pay tribute to our scientists who were able to place so many weapons systems in a small volume at that time that the appearance of such a ship is still a matter of concern to colleagues. Ruthlessly, almost most of his enemies are no longer new ships, and he Moscow can still bring a lot of surprises. the enemy can cost the enemy this much, especially since he is not always alone. Nearby there is always another ship with other capabilities. The author forgot to voice one problem that has always been in the USSR Navy. None of the warships could deliver the same powerful blow along the coast, unlike the Yankee ships. The objectives of the ships are different. Now a new ship is undergoing state acceptance in the BALTIC. its capabilities are an order of magnitude higher. The Fleet’s leadership carefully monitors this. Everything that science and the military-industrial complex could give is worked out. If all the parameters and systems incorporated into it give designers results, then a large series of such ships will go. According to the leaders of the Fleet The Russian Federation is a completely new combat system. And as for modernization, this is probably a problem of problems. Having put one of the cruisers for modernization there such requirements were presented by the Fleet that a brainstorming began on how to translate all this into metal and systems. Only one thing is clear that the new cruiser in its capabilities will be orders of magnitude greater than Peter the Great. And Shoigu began to closely monitor what is happening on the construction of warships for nothing. There is an ERA of a modular type of ship armament. One Buyan showed what it is. I just don’t know what is waiting MOSCOW in the future, but I know one thing. Soon there will be ships of a new class More powerful in armament and capabilities of the class, despite the smaller displacement. And in truth, he is still handsome Even now, despite his venerable age.
  35. red_october
    red_october 5 December 2015 10: 49 New
    0
    Quote: forwarder
    Quote: red_october
    In cooperation with these submarine missile carriers, each of the individual 1164 or 1144.2 cruisers, at least in the Northern Fleet and in the Pacific Fleet, becomes a serious threat to the American AUG

    And exactly the same threat will be the same underwater missile carriers without old cruisers.
    The smart task, what is an extra link?


    Did you learn math at school? Smart you are ours.
    1. Don't you think it is a fair rule that the more ships with serious anti-ship missiles "Vulcan", "Basalt", "Granit", "Onyx" gather in one place, the higher the probability of defeat for the American AUG? Take a pencil at your leisure and count. How many anti-ship missiles can we put against them. The Americans (one day), too, may be ready for a serious conflict.
    2. There is another point. In a specific situation at a specific theater of operations, it is still necessary to have time to collect all these ships (both surface and submarine), and what will be closer to the cruiser Moskva with its 16 Volcanoes, TARK Peter the Great with 20 (frigates and corvettes with "Onyxes" in the mines of "caliber-NK") and whether we will have time to deploy our submarine missile carriers there is also a question.
    3. A surface cruiser and a submarine cruiser has a function other than military. More precisely, only surface ones, namely, a demonstration of power, which helps to avoid conflict (and often this is necessary). Remember when the TARK Ave. 1144 only appeared in the Mediterranean Sea in the 80's - all the NATO fleets and flotillas were draping from there, from the 500-kilometer range of its main caliber. And remember the Caribbean crisis, when Nikita Khrushchev ordered submarines to float off the coast of Cuba in order to indicate the Soviet presence there. Finding yourself for a death submarine is similar; it has exactly the opposite tasks.
    4. Why don't you propose to cut the submarine missile carriers of the project 949A "Antei", since you are so relying on them? If we get rid of the Soviet legacy, then everything!
    1. forwarder
      forwarder 5 December 2015 13: 43 New
      -1
      Quote: red_october
      the more ships with serious anti-ship missiles "Vulcan", "Basalt", "Granit", "Onyx" are gathered in one place, the higher the probability of defeat of the American AUG?

      Defeat American AUG? And who's tail lifted on her? Who would dare? Except you desperate. And then, theoretically desperate.
      Quote: red_october
      We will be able to collect at least a few ships - and our chances of countering the AUG are many times higher.

      You are still in the registry office, change the name to Count Cagliostro. And then from you carries adventurism for a mile away.
      Quote: red_october
      namely, a demonstration of power

      Demonstration of strength implies a demonstration of strength, and not of an old rusty trough. And even a demonstration of a young and broken trough is not a demonstration of strength. All the "power" of the USSR collapsed during the Caribbean crisis. The king was naked. Then there was only merry laughter about the USSR and its Armed Forces.
      Quote: red_october
      And remember the Caribbean crisis, when Nikita Khrushchev ordered submarines to float off the coast of Cuba in order to indicate the Soviet presence there.

      Gee-gee. So what? Have you taken out weapons from Cuba? They took out. Everything, period. Everything else is "tales of grandmother Arina".
      Quote: red_october
      And why don't you propose to cut the submarine missile carriers pr. 949A "Antei", since you are so relying on them?

      Because the underwater and surface mosquito fleet must be vice versa, developed in every way. Those. spend money wisely, and not on all sorts of stupid show-offs.
      1. onix757
        onix757 5 December 2015 13: 49 New
        +1
        Quote: forwarder
        Gee-gee. So what? Have you taken out weapons from Cuba? They took out. Everything, period. Everything else is "tales of grandmother Arina".

        At the same time as rockets from Turkey. No one then smiled, because in the United States they are very reverent about their safety.
        Because the underwater and surface mosquito fleet must be vice versa, developed in every way

        The mosquito fleet is the lot of the countries of the 3 world, although it is needed but not to the detriment.
        1. forwarder
          forwarder 5 December 2015 15: 10 New
          -1
          Quote: onix757
          At the same time as rockets from Turkey.

          Yes Yes. This excuse for the Communists for heard.
          Quote: onix757
          No one then smiled, because in the United States they are very reverent about their safety.

          And what, she threatened them from the USSR? Now you all laugh. What for?
          Quote: onix757
          Mosquito fleet destiny of the countries of the 3rd world

          About a strong submarine fleet armed with nuclear weapons you apparently did not perceive.
          PS. And what world of the Russian Federation, how is the economy? Remind you of its export structure? And the structure of GDP?
        2. The comment was deleted.
  36. The comment was deleted.
  37. red_october
    red_october 5 December 2015 14: 49 New
    0
    Quote: forwarder
    Defeat American AUG? And who's tail lifted on her? Who would dare? Except you desperate. And then, theoretically desperate.



    Well, on the basis of the fact that we dare not dare to do anything, let’s immediately distribute it to the regions and republics of the Russian Federation? Siberia - the United States and the Chinese. Kaliningrad - to the Germans, Kuril Islands - to the Japanese. Then we’ll figure out what to give to someone, Madeleine Albright will tell you as a last resort.

    I (and many on our site, as can be seen in the comments) proceed from the fact that we must be prepared for the worst scenario. If we are ready, it will be noticeable from the outside, for the very same NATO. And how to act in specific circumstances - the military will decide. If we need to send a cruiser and a dozen more ships to the shores of Syria so that it is obvious that this is our zone of influence, then it is necessary. This is exactly what cools many hotheads out there. As for me, as a taxpayer, I am interested and fully support the infusion of my taxes into the military-industrial complex in general and to maintain the combat readiness of the Moskva GRK in particular.

    You are still in the registry office, change the name to Count Cagliostro. And then from you carries adventurism for a mile away.

    Let's figure it out. If adventurism is from anyone, it’s definitely not from me, but above all from the Ministry of Defense and the Supreme. Have you read the news? In November, Russian bombers flew around an American base located on the island of Guam, said Major Dave Eastburn, a spokesman for the US Pacific Command. For me, the question is whether I support it or not. Answer: Yes, I support. If you don’t give Anglo-Saxons on the head, they will devour us as they did with Ukraine and tried to do with Syria (I will not give a list of countries where the USA staged coups).

    Your nonsense about "old troughs" is not even interesting to comment on. Personally, you yourself have not built anything new for the Navy from your own savings and with your own hands. Yes, and remember the experience of the Americans with the battleships "Iowa", built in the 1940s and modernized in the 1980s, the Americans did not particularly care that this was "old junk."
    Let’s at least not squander what remains of the USSR
  38. The comment was deleted.
  39. Lucy
    Lucy 6 December 2015 12: 39 New
    +1
    Quote: Aleksandr72
    I agree with you:

    Only the tonality of the STR signal is different, depending on which radar the aircraft was irradiated with. Even if the Turkish F-16 turned off the onboard REO, being under external control, the ground radar still irradiated the Su-24, at least for the purpose of guiding its fighter. Another thing is that in order to guarantee the defeat of our aircraft with a TGS missile with its radar guidance turned off, the Turk had to approach the Su-24 as close as possible for reliable visual contact with the attacked aircraft. Therefore, I wrote that during the attack, the Turks jumped into Syrian airspace and escaped from there, having launched a rocket.
    I have the honor.

    I understand this is theoretical reasoning?
    STR screeches when the radar transitions from view to capture. In the exercises, when aviation and air defense are involved, the STR flashes on all sides, although you intercept, you are not.
    As you argue, a fighter pilot (throttle and pay) being under a full radar, as a tractor driver retiring, should receive an allowance for "deafness" and have, among others, prof. diseases still deafness.
    Good luck!
  40. Sergeant Pank
    Sergeant Pank 6 December 2015 15: 25 New
    0
    I dare add the following:
    1) There are no 5V55RM missiles in the fleet. The service life of the last issues ended at the beginning of the two thousandth. Now standing there
    48N6 and equipment for their launch.
    2) The antenna post has been updated. Not on F1M Petra. Those who know specifically what is standing there are silent.
    3) Hardware software is solidly shoveled.
    As a result, there is almost S-300FM. Very, very close.

    How the air defense ship Moscow will still fight.)
    1. Ustinov 055 055
      Ustinov 055 055 22 June 2016 16: 30 New
      0
      Well, we know about shoveling, everything is outdated; stuffing is necessary; 95 percent of posts change boobs overboard, etc.
  41. red_october
    red_october 9 December 2015 12: 07 New
    0
    Quote: onix757
    The mosquito fleet is the lot of the countries of the 3 world, although it is needed but not to the detriment.


    That's it!

    The Navy without a surface component in all its variety (1, 2 3 ships of rank, mosquito fleet, infrastructure, auxiliary ships, mine sweepers, tankers, etc.) and with only one submarine fleet is a crippled pianist.
    He can play a simple melody with his only hand, but you can masterfully perform a concert with only two hands.
    1. Scraptor
      Scraptor 10 December 2015 05: 45 New
      +1
      And without his aircraft, he’s as if without eyes, not all can navigate missiles — for example, they can’t search for nuclear submarines, defend their nuclear submarines, support the landing behind the very first hill, and cannot refuel themselves.
  42. Ustinov 055 055
    Ustinov 055 055 22 June 2016 16: 29 New
    0
    At least one article with a good analysis of the advantages and disadvantages of the sistership. While Ustinov’s glory and Moscow still exist, it’s not all lost), although this is not a drop in the bucket, this is generally a miser
  43. iouris
    iouris 16 October 2016 22: 04 New
    0
    A normal ship for a show of strength: a bunch of all kinds of threatening add-ons. But, for example, "Zamvolt" can only scare very advanced specialists who understand that if a real war were possible, then building ships is pointless.
  44. ydjin
    ydjin 12 May 2017 14: 10 New
    0
    Let’s praise the requiem in the article. One just has not been beaten in the face, while respected. Modernization would not hurt, but it's time to build new ships! No doubt, new frigates and corvettes are also needed! But cruisers and destroyers of the ocean zone are also crucial! At one time, “Sarychi” and “Atlant” and nuclear “Atlant” forced to respect the Navy of our Motherland, such a triad of surface fleet is needed now in our time.
  45. xomaNN
    xomaNN 25 January 2018 20: 13 New
    0
    In 2010, he found RKR "Moscow" in a dock in Seva. They drove and chase him mercilessly. And since in the next 2 five-year periods new NKs of such tonnage will not appear. One way - ten years, upgrading the armament of the cruiser, to be in service.
  46. rts9900
    rts9900 April 17 2018 15: 35 New
    +1
    Of course, liberal Russia with a fleet is bad, our ships are still guarded by the ships of Soviet Russia. And I feel that with this liberal husk that will sell anyone for the sake of sausage, new cruisers, destroyers, aircraft carriers will not soon appear in Russia. If at all appear. I am ashamed. a sea country (Power) does not build new aircraft carriers, cruisers, destroyers. But the Chinese fellows, in 4 years they built an aircraft carrier, and in a couple of years, several new destroyers. And this liberal husk boasts of Soviet weapons, according to them the weapons of a backward Soviet country, a country on clay feet. How I want in the USSR, I want in a strong Russia.