Military Review

Hi Germany, the 22460 project will be with Chinese diesel engines!

133
Hi Germany, the 22460 project will be with Chinese diesel engines!



The new patrol ships of the Frontier Service of the FSB of the 22460 project will be equipped with diesel installations made in the PRC and not in the Federal Republic of Germany, as planned, Deputy Chief Engineer of the Almaz Shipbuilding Company Ilyaz Mukhutdinov told 16 in November at a press conference in the TASS regional center in St. Petersburg.

“We are talking about high-speed high-speed diesel engines of high power. We can say that their construction is outdated ”, - noted Mukhutdinov. He recalled that for the guard originally "German diesel engines with a higher resource were chosen." “Our German partners refused to supply these products”, and in the Russian Federation high-speed diesel engines of such aggregate power that meets the requirements of the customer, "Not currently", said a representative of the firm "Almaz".

"In this regard, it was decided to install on the ships under construction, Chinese high-speed engines - modern, good, required power, - noted Mukhutdinov. - At the moment, the supply contract has already been concluded, and the diesel engines of our Chinese partners will be installed on the next ships of the 22460 project. ”

The chief designer of the project of the Northern Design Bureau (SPKB) Alexey Naumov specified that power plants of this type in China are manufactured under a German license. "These are products that the Chinese produce on the basis of the German design", - he said.

REFERENCE
The patrol ships of the 22460 project Rubin cipher (“Hunter” type) are a type of diesel border (patrol) patrol ships of the territorial sea of ​​the second rank. It can be conditionally assigned to small corvettes.

On board the ship is a landing pad for a light helicopter (Ka-226 or Ansat) or a UAV (Gorizont G-Air S-100). For the helicopter can be equipped with a hangar shelter. In the stern of the vessel there is a slip for launching a rigid inflatable speedboat and other equipment. “Ruby” is equipped with a desalination plant, a sauna with a mini-pool (autonomy - 2 of the month, for such a small ship it is a lot). Range 3500 miles

The ship’s armament is one 30-mm automatic six-barreled artillery mount and two 12,7-mm machine guns. Technically, it is possible to deploy launchers of the Uran anti-ship missiles and the A-220M art installations.

External contours are developed using elements of stealth technology. The total number of ships in the series is expected to be about 30 (of which 6 is already in service).

The watchdog of the 22460 project differs from its predecessors not so much in armament as in shipbuilding qualities. Thus, the ship will be able to serve in the excitement of the sea in 6 points, while freely maneuvering. The patrolman has a new hull shape, increased seaworthiness. Speed ​​on calm water - 30 knots.
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  1. Andrey Yuryevich
    Andrey Yuryevich 21 November 2015 06: 16 New
    43
    project 22460 will be with Chinese diesels! .... how they cut in under your breath ... your mother’s import substitution! am
    1. Ruslan
      Ruslan 21 November 2015 06: 30 New
      +2
      in-in, very damn "good news"! the Chinese have already descended sad
      1. Senior manager
        Senior manager 21 November 2015 06: 51 New
        64
        Ruslan. It would be worse to deliver relatives and perform a combat mission with the speed of a tug. In general, the Chinese have raised the level of their products. Engaged in people and more than one year. But you need to think before speaking. The sanctions were introduced for about a year, and all the hasty people want that during this time industry will overtake the whole world in all sectors and in all positions. Yeah right now.
        1. Kazakh
          Kazakh 21 November 2015 09: 23 New
          11
          Quote: St. Propulsion
          The sanctions were introduced for about a year, and all the hasty people want that during this time industry will overtake the whole world in all sectors and in all positions. Yeah right now.

          The perestroika friend was started just to raise productivity in production, that is, they've been fooling us for 25 years and you say one year. One year we just came up with a new slogan and boltology has been going on for a quarter century.
          1. Rus2012
            21 November 2015 10: 09 New
            13
            Quote: Kazakh
            Friend "perestroika" started just to

            ... in-in! From that moment on, ALL trunk production and industry (the whole "mighty Nine") began at best to "rivet pots", and then finally went!
          2. Talgat
            Talgat 21 November 2015 10: 13 New
            18
            Immediately everything is simply impossible to replace. Nobody can do this in the world. Only the USSR could once
            Now Russia will have to gradually produce strategic production itself anyway

            In the meantime, after the sanction, Iran and China and some other countries have openly stated that they will reimburse Russia for everything that the West does not deliver - enough has been written about this
            1. Iline
              Iline 21 November 2015 11: 17 New
              +5
              Quote: Talgat
              Immediately everything is simply impossible to replace. Nobody can do this in the world. Only the USSR could once

              Let's put our hand on our hearts - never in Russia, including the USSR, could they make good engines. In the best case, a "rethinking" of Western models to the realities of operation was obtained.
              So in this case, we should not talk about import substitution, but about the creation, finally, of our own engine building school.
              1. Tarikxnumx
                Tarikxnumx 21 November 2015 14: 31 New
                21
                I would not make such unfounded allegations with a hand on my heart ... Just the same, in the USSR there was a very strong engine school. As for the "reinterpretation of Western models," for good, all the currently existing engines are a rethinking of the designs of the same Diesel, etc.
              2. Arikkhab
                Arikkhab 21 November 2015 16: 14 New
                18
                your untruth. In Khabarovsk, the Daldizel plant was closed (closed in 2007), which not only worked for the country's needs, but also delivered abroad to 30 countries of the world, participated in international exhibitions and fairs. The plant supplied ship engines and generators half the country. up to 1500 vehicles a year were delivered only to new ships, not counting what was going on for ship repair! quite decent diesel engines were, even if South Korea bought
                why not rejoice the plant?
              3. Shteffan
                Shteffan 21 November 2015 16: 45 New
                +6
                Quote: Iline
                Let's put our hand on the heart - never in Russia, including in the USSR, could they make good engines

                B-2 TANK DIESEL, which stood on the t-34, ARE NOT ONE OF THE BEST? and 5tdf and 6td ??
                1. neri73-r
                  neri73-r 21 November 2015 17: 04 New
                  +1
                  Shteffan, you got ahead of me, I also wanted to write about the "B" series of tank diesel engines! request
                  1. common man
                    common man 21 November 2015 18: 49 New
                    0
                    The B-2 engine life was less than 100 hours.
                2. Bad_gr
                  Bad_gr 24 November 2015 12: 30 New
                  0
                  Quote: Steffan
                  .... and 5tdf and 6td ??

                  The diesel engines of this series were created on the basis of the German aviation diesel engine Jumo-205
          3. Dart2027
            Dart2027 21 November 2015 10: 43 New
            11
            Quote: Kazakh
            "perestroika" started

            to destroy the USSR.
          4. samoletil18
            samoletil18 21 November 2015 11: 52 New
            +2
            Quote: Kazakh
            25 years

            30!
          5. The comment was deleted.
          6. Amurets
            Amurets 21 November 2015 12: 23 New
            +7
            Quote: Kazakh
            The perestroika friend was started just to raise productivity in production, that is, they've been fooling us for 25 years and you say one year. One year we just came up with a new slogan and boltology has been going on for a quarter century.

            In 1980, diesel engines of the D-49 series were in full swing at the BAM and at the construction of the Bureyskaya HPP. I worked with the warranty team from the Kolomensky plant to service and repair these diesel engines on P-6 power cars. From factory specialists we learned that these engines were specially designed for the Navy USSR. Here is the skill and the question arose? Why do these diesel engines work perfectly on railway transport and the national economy, but they don’t want the military?
            1. shonsu
              shonsu 21 November 2015 13: 09 New
              +8
              The article has the answer to your question. it says that we need high-speed diesel engines, and ours, at the moment, do not meet the requirements. I know, Kolomna diesel engines are put on the pl, and even on some ships, the capacities are loaded. but to see the assortment for all the requirements is not enough.
              1. Nick
                Nick 21 November 2015 23: 54 New
                +1
                Quote: shonsu
                The article has the answer to your question. it says that we need high-speed diesel engines, and ours, at the moment, do not meet the requirements. I know, Kolomna diesel engines are put on the pl, and even on some ships, the capacities are loaded. but to see the assortment for all the requirements is not enough.

                Of course, it’s pointless and stupid to expand the production of a new diesel engine for the sake of the 30 series.
            2. Bayonet
              Bayonet 21 November 2015 13: 56 New
              +5
              Quote: Amurets
              ? Why do these diesel engines work perfectly on railway transport and the national economy, but they don’t want the military?

              D49 - quite powerful, medium-speed, economical, but heavy for small warships engines. St. Petersburg high-speed M504 and M507 of the Zvezda plant - lighter, more compact motors; The possibility of combining into diesel-diesel units of high power is provided. D49 has a very unpleasant feature - during a set of revolutions it emits huge clouds of soot, (the so-called "bear") that unmasks the ship.
              1. Amurets
                Amurets 22 November 2015 14: 36 New
                +1
                Quote: Bayonet
                D49 has a very unpleasant feature - during a set of revolutions it emits huge clouds of soot, (the so-called "bear") that unmasks the ship.

                This is a trouble not of a diesel engine but of a turbocharger. Not only the D-49 suffers from this drawback, but also the PD-1m and other diesel engines with our turbines. Compared with imported ones, our turbochargers have more rotor mass, and mean the rotor accelerates longer. This is not an unfounded statement. With approximately the same diesel power and the dimensions of the TC, the Czech rotor of the TC is much lighter than our TK-30 rotor.
            3. Alexey RA
              Alexey RA 21 November 2015 16: 50 New
              +1
              Quote: Amurets
              In 1980, diesel engines of the D-49 series were in full swing at the BAM and at the construction of the Bureyskaya HPP. I worked with the warranty team from the Kolomensky plant to service and repair these diesel engines on P-6 power cars. From factory specialists we learned that these engines were specially designed for the Navy USSR. Here is the skill and the question arose? Why do these diesel engines work perfectly on railway transport and the national economy, but they don’t want the military?

              Probably because, in due time, once-through boilers and boilers with high steam parameters, which worked perfectly in the merchant fleet and onshore power plants, turned out to be a real punishment for ships of the German Navy. Shipborne power plants operate in the mode of variable loads, vibrations and shocks - in short, in conditions uncharacteristic of civilian use.

              Since the beginning of the 2000s, the Navy has been battling with Kolomna over the quality of Steregushchiy diesel engines And nothing has changed. The order of the Navy is simply uninteresting to the plant - it already has a breakthrough of orders from Russian Railways. And to make a small series of diesel for the very specific requirements of the fleet is more hemorrhoids than profits. Capitalism, however ...

              However, recently it came to an unprecedented earlier: the industry recognized its cant with diesels.
              ... at a meeting of the Maritime Board, the Navy Commander expressed dissatisfaction with the quality of the engine of the Ural diesel engine plant. The Commander-in-Chief declared that the enterprise "makes it so that after two months of cover on these installations, sea water completely eats away."

              “Naturally, quality is lame in all diesel engineers. The Commander-in-Chief is right, no one can deny here that quality must be raised, ”said UDMZ representative
            4. Nick
              Nick 21 November 2015 23: 50 New
              0
              Quote: Amurets
              .Here was the skill and the question arose? Why do these diesel engines work perfectly on railway transport and the national economy, but they don’t want the military.

              Those. characteristics do not match those. assignment. Everything is simple.
          7. Lelek
            Lelek 21 November 2015 12: 51 New
            +8
            Quote: Kazakh
            .One year as soon as they came up with a new slogan, and boltology has been going on for longer than a quarter century.


            And why? It seems to me that the people responsible for this notorious "import substitution" are much more comfortable doing nothing or simply portraying a hectic activity than working up their sleeves. Volumes are voluminous, money is dripping into accounts, and when you work hard, you can also get hemorrhoids. It turns out that import substitution should begin with the replacement of these same “responsible persons”. An interesting article came across here, though not quite in the subject, but nonetheless:
            (cry.)
            1. Saratoga833
              Saratoga833 21 November 2015 22: 08 New
              +1
              Looking at the photo of Sechin, negative characters from the series about gangsters are always presented to me. Very, very similar!
        2. Alekseev
          Alekseev 21 November 2015 10: 40 New
          +3
          Quote: St. Propulsion
          in general - it is the Chinese who have raised the level of their products.

          It is possible that Chinese diesel engines will be essentially the same German MTU. They release them under license, the main components are probably native.
          On the one hand, this shows the futility of all embargoes, but on the other hand, our factories should produce engines for the fleet in a full assortment and worthy quality.
          1. Dart2027
            Dart2027 21 November 2015 20: 45 New
            +2
            Quote: Alekseev
            It is possible that Chinese diesel engines will be essentially the same German MTU

            Most likely that is why they are put on. Many believe that it is enough to release your diesel engine and you can immediately put it, as in a computer game. But in reality, diesels from different manufacturers have different weight and size characteristics, different places for connecting service systems and different control systems. that is, you need to either reconfigure the ship or create a diesel engine for specific parameters. Both are technically possible, but require time and cost.
          2. Saratoga833
            Saratoga833 21 November 2015 22: 10 New
            +1
            Quote: Alekseev
            decent quality

            No matter how much you take Chinese-made metal products, the impression is that they are made of plasticine!
        3. Andrey NM
          Andrey NM 21 November 2015 11: 27 New
          10
          For a year, at least a plan could be made up. Have you done it? And, well, yes, they made almost everywhere toll roads. To support the Pace of the Russian lads of the Rottenbergs.
          1. The comment was deleted.
        4. anip
          anip 21 November 2015 17: 59 New
          +5
          Quote: St. Propulsion
          The sanctions were introduced for about a year, and all the hasty people want that during this time industry will overtake the whole world in all sectors and in all positions.

          That is, over the 15 years of his reign, Putin did not have the mind to understand that he needed to develop his industry and only after the imposition of sanctions did he finally "get it"? True, I doubt very much that it has “gotten through”, because nothing really is being done, except for a feverish search for new markets for whom to sell oil and gas.
      2. Johnny51
        Johnny51 21 November 2015 08: 15 New
        21
        Down? Yes, we still have to rise and rise to China!
        1. Rus2012
          21 November 2015 10: 13 New
          +7
          Quote: Johnny51
          Yes, we still have to rise and rise to China!

          ... a strange formulation of the question, given that the WHOLE WORLD has turned China into a "factory of the 21 century": all world production was transferred there, from electronics to the automotive industry and heavy machinery ...

          Isn't it better to "use" this factory?
          1. samoletil18
            samoletil18 21 November 2015 11: 56 New
            +1
            Quote: Rus2012
            "right" to use this factory?

            Already in Bangladesh and others who look poorer than China. Ukraine is coming soon.
          2. The comment was deleted.
      3. Nevsky_ZU
        Nevsky_ZU 21 November 2015 08: 46 New
        12
        I won’t understand when our officials want to stir up a muddy scheme, they are masters of creating one-day firms for operations both within the Russian Federation and with the outside world. What prevents the engines to order in Germany for some Kazakh company "Caspian"? And those already thrown to us? Well, I understand the service and maintenance, all that. But is it really impossible to make an intermediary? Of course, I do not persuade not to engage in their own import substitution, just to not lose time. European food producers find a loophole through Belarus. Well, if there is a sea there, let's in the reverse order? hi
        1. your1970
          your1970 21 November 2015 10: 03 New
          +2
          Expensive engines with the proposed option through an intermediary in Kazakhstan will become even more expensive-commerce, could come out to be half as much from China ...
          Regarding the listed Russian companies, since such a question arose, it means they cannot deliver such engines NOW
        2. Rus2012
          21 November 2015 10: 18 New
          +8
          Quote: Nevsky_ZU
          What prevents engines from ordering in Germany for some Kazakh company Caspian? And they already throw us?

          ... believe the luminaries, ALL THINGS POSSIBLE are done in all available ways. In this matter, the Kazakhs are under the control of the world gendarme.
          The world gendarme only threatened 10bn of green ... and the French refused to supply the Mistrals for the total amount of 1bn.

          Deutschland was billed in 18bn (WAG as be), too, not for "beautiful eyes."

          We - in 50bn, for the sake of obedience, but the GDP was sent by the inna and went further ...

          Before you write anything, you should turn your head to 360 city and think ...
          1. Pancho
            Pancho 21 November 2015 15: 59 New
            +6
            Quote: Rus2012
            We - in 50bn, for the sake of obedience, but the GDP was sent by the inna and went further ...

            What are you saying? But in the USA our money, for the amount of $ 80 billion, is not stored for an hour? Now they are confiscated by some American court and bye-bye, we move on, having weary ...
      4. wei
        wei 21 November 2015 11: 21 New
        +7
        already descended to the Chinese :(

        it’s funny to read stuffed on a Chinese keyboard in Germany, these engines (with a 90% probability) are collected by some sort of Arab, at best, Turks. laughing
      5. svp67
        svp67 21 November 2015 15: 19 New
        +1
        Quote: ruslan
        the Chinese have already descended

        We must look the truth in the eye, now we have sank even lower. Well, God will give skills and assertiveness, we will catch up and overtake.
      6. Nick
        Nick 21 November 2015 23: 47 New
        0
        Quote: ruslan
        in-in, very damn "good news"! the Chinese have already descended sad

        The engines are essentially German; China produces them under a German license.
    2. Senior manager
      Senior manager 21 November 2015 06: 39 New
      +6
      Andrey Yuryevich. To create a high-speed diesel is not to stomp Claudia, and not even to bake a pie. Bustler.
      1. Andrey Yuryevich
        Andrey Yuryevich 21 November 2015 06: 44 New
        15
        Quote: St. Propulsion
        Andrey Yuryevich. To create a high-speed diesel is not to stomp Claudia, and not even to bake a pie. Bustler.

        Comrade Netoropyge: that is, the Chinese can, but the Russians can’t? calibers, can, diesel, no? You don’t have to talk nonsense. So again, before the "boilers" we’ll slide into the Navy ... no one to do? -OAO “Kolomensky Zavod”, OJSC “Bryansk Engineering Plant”, OJSC “Penzdieselmash” (managing company - CJSC “Transmashholding”), OJSC “Barnaultransmash”, OJSC “Volzhsky diesel engine named after Maminykh ”(Balakovo, Saratov region), OJSC“ RUMO ”(Nizhny Novgorod), OJSC“ Dagdiesel ”(Kaspiysk), OJSC“ Star ”(St. Petersburg), LLC“ Ural diesel engine factory ”(Ekaterinburg).first you can take your time, and then you can ALREADY not be in a hurry ...
        1. Senior manager
          Senior manager 21 November 2015 06: 59 New
          +9
          Andrei Yurievich, read, I just pointed to the time factor. And I see the situation like this: Russia was led to integrate into the world economy, and the West took advantage of this and introduced oxygen, now it’s necessary to catch up, there is where, there is someone, but time ...
          1. wei
            wei 22 November 2015 00: 31 New
            0
            Russia led to integration into the global economy

            that is yes. So it happened with oil, it’s necessary to process and sell plastics, not raw materials am
        2. common man
          common man 21 November 2015 07: 18 New
          +6
          There are many factories, little use. ICE is generally a weak point of the USSR-Russia. What are the domestic engines that can be called "the best in the world"?
          1. Bayonet
            Bayonet 21 November 2015 14: 01 New
            +8
            Quote: man in the street
            What are the domestic engines that can be called "the best in the world"?

            RD-180 smile
            1. common man
              common man 21 November 2015 15: 57 New
              +2
              If the RD-180 is an internal combustion engine, then I am the pope!
        3. Homo
          Homo 21 November 2015 08: 08 New
          +3
          Quote: Andrew Y.
          Comrade Netoropyge: that is, the Chinese can, but the Russians can’t?

          You do not seem to write such garbage! Maybe you do not know - the Chinese did not have YELTSIN !!!
          1. Bayonet
            Bayonet 21 November 2015 14: 05 New
            +3
            Quote: Homo
            Maybe you do not know - the Chinese did not have YELTSIN !!!

            They had Mao Zedong with the cultural revolution!
            1. NOMADE
              NOMADE 21 November 2015 14: 21 New
              0
              + a lot! thick;)!
        4. NOMADE
          NOMADE 21 November 2015 10: 22 New
          +4
          Greetings! No panic!) It is clear that emotions ... But, I wrote about this even more than six months ago (even wiped it ..)) For a long time a "licensed copy of MTU" has been asking, while ours are developing their own analogue. Moreover, knowing the Germans (by personal communication at work), they themselves spit on these sanctions. We can say that they also helped indirectly, since without the unspoken "good" the Chinese would not have been able to humanly officially sell licensed power plants. It’s easier for them in this regard, they sold the licensed production, including the machine tool park with technologies ... We missed this moment .. ((If in 2010 - 2012 (while we were “partners”) we would have made a request to build a joint factory with MTU .., now there would be much less bunting .. But alas, history does not tolerate a subjunctive attitude .. And now, you need to gain experience when working with supplied power supplies, actively "work" with Chinese colleagues (they were not badly trained by engineers from Germany) , for the development and production of modern diesel plants.
          1. altman
            altman 23 November 2015 17: 32 New
            0
            I agree with you .. who prevented our buy a plant and licenses for the production of diesel engines?
        5. Alexey RA
          Alexey RA 21 November 2015 17: 06 New
          +2
          Quote: Andrew Y.
          no one to do? -OAO “Kolomensky Zavod”, OJSC “Bryansk Engineering Plant”, OJSC “Penzdieselmash” (managing company - CJSC “Transmashholding”), OJSC “Barnaultransmash”, OJSC “Volzhsky diesel engine named after Maminykh ”(Balakovo, Saratov region), OJSC“ RUMO ”(Nizhny Novgorod), OJSC“ Dagdiesel ”(Kaspiysk), OJSC“ Star ”(St. Petersburg), LLC“ Ural diesel engine factory "(Ekaterinburg)

          Of the entire list, only 3 offices are engaged in diesel engines for the Navy: Kolomna, Zvezda and UDMZ.
          Zvezda specializes in extremely specific powerful and small-sized diesels for a small fleet - boats and small ships. PSKR for these diesels is too big. In addition, the "star" diesel engines are quite moody and require frequent maintenance and repair. This is a GEM for "sprinters", and PSKR is a styer, or even a marathon runner (for him reliability and a resource are more important than maximum speed - for border guards go to the sea regularly, much more often than RCA, MPK and MRK). Alas, the MTU resource is an order of magnitude greater than that of the Zvezda diesel engines.
          Kolomna scored a bolt on fleet requirements - and gives a standard answer in the style of all requests: "either take what is, or nothing else will happen - and without you orders above the roof".
          UDMZ recently torn a magical jamb with naval diesels, which even reached Chirkov and which the plant representative was forced to admit.

          PS to demand marching diesel engines from Dagdiesel is the same as demanding engineering products from the Design Bureau of Special Engineering. laughing
          For Dagdiesel for the Navy all his life he made only torpedoes and diesel generators with a capacity of up to 60 hp
      2. mark1
        mark1 21 November 2015 07: 29 New
        +7
        We have high-speed diesel engines manufactured by the Zvezda OJSC M507 series and so on. For a long time they were the best in the world. Are they now, at times, worse than the German-Chinese?
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. gjv
          gjv 21 November 2015 10: 22 New
          +3
          Quote: mark1
          We have high-speed diesel engines manufactured by the Zvezda OJSC M507 series and so on. For a long time they were the best in the world. Are they now, at times, worse than the German-Chinese?

          M507 for such a PSK is of course redundant, but M503A (ChNSP16 / 17) by the combination of power (slightly lower) - revving would more or less fit. But on the basis of goodness - the best, unfortunately ... request the fact is that MTU diesel engines for some reason have a slightly lower fuel consumption and, at the same time, the resource before overhaul is 30000–90000 hours versus 1000–6000 hours for diesel engines manufactured by Zvezda OJSC.
          Now it remains to find out what resource will be in the Chinese licensed products.
          1. mark1
            mark1 21 November 2015 12: 13 New
            +1
            Quote: gjv
            Of course, the M507 is redundant for such a PSK, but the M503A (ChNSP16 / 17) in terms of a combination of power (slightly lower) - revolutions would more or less fit.

            Of course, I had in mind the line of diesel engines of the M-500 series. As far as I know, the plant has a program to increase the resource and increase fuel economy, including through the introduction of new materials and microprocessor control systems.
            And at the expense of 90000 hours, this is probably for medium-speed diesel engines (although just in case, I rummage around on the Internet)
            1. mark1
              mark1 21 November 2015 12: 32 New
              +4
              Found out - MTU resource - 22000-24 000 hours
              1. The comment was deleted.
              2. gjv
                gjv 21 November 2015 15: 31 New
                +1
                Quote: mark1
                Learned - MTU Resource

                Yes, Zvezda reported a program to improve diesel performance. However, when will this happen? request
                And according to MTU 16V 4000 M73L, which was planned at the project UCS 22460, the Germans called the resource 30000 hours. hi
                1. mark1
                  mark1 21 November 2015 17: 25 New
                  +1
                  Quote: gjv
                  Yes, Zvezda reported a program to improve diesel performance. However, when will this happen? request

                  And it all depends on our smart-assed state - there will be an order, there will be a result, but it will be in the style of Serdyukov - Medvedev (you can’t buy everything there for free, we’ll buy everything there) and the result, as you said.
    3. Homo
      Homo 21 November 2015 08: 06 New
      +9
      Quote: Andrew Y.
      project 22460 will be with Chinese diesels! .... how they cut in under your breath ... your mother’s import substitution! am

      You, trepachki already got !!! Maybe you are a "gin" or "Old Man Hottabych" or, at worst, "Golden Fish" ??? So grab a couple of dozens of the right engines in a couple of weeks. Weak? Of course, bazaar not tossing bags! If we do not produce them, if development and production take time, then what should we do? Do not build ships! am am am am am
      1. avt
        avt 21 November 2015 09: 54 New
        +2
        Quote: Homo
        You, trepachki already got !!! Maybe you are a "gin" or "Old Man Hottabych" or, at worst, "Golden Fish" ???

        And in the second round! wassat Well, they’ve already discussed this topic!
        1. Throw
          Throw 21 November 2015 10: 53 New
          +1
          And about these PSKRs with Chinese engines, the article was already ..))
      2. Andrey Yuryevich
        Andrey Yuryevich 21 November 2015 18: 13 New
        +1
        from Trepach and I hear! how much more time is needed? it was not enough? how many years have passed since production was bent? why the hell to justify the ability to do stuffed up in the trash? No one has seen THIS ??? time it became a little damn them ... as if from scratch in a clean field everything needs to be done! fool
    4. vlad_m
      vlad_m 21 November 2015 08: 24 New
      +9
      then: ruslan

      in-in, very damn "good news"! the Chinese have already descended


      And do people normally go to BMP and ShchV? And no one complains that the entire range of spare parts and accessories for them, including automatic transmissions and engines, are produced in Chinese factories. There are only branded brands.

      then: andrey yurevich
      that is, the Chinese can, but the Russians can’t? calibers, can, diesel, no?


      So the reverse situation exists. The Chinese can do diesel, but the "gauges" are too tough for them! Truth ?
      And did anyone in the world create an X-shaped tank diesel except us? Do you imagine how much time and resources are needed to create an engine from scratch? No ? We were taken to a school in the mid-eighties on an excursion to the Chelyabinsk tractor transmission plant. And there they showed a working prototype of an X-shaped tank diesel. In the middle of the 80s of the last century !!!

      Dont be upset. We have everything. There are also backlogs on high-speed ship diesels. We’ll finish and we will put our own. And they will be no worse than the Chinese and German.
      1. Walking
        Walking 21 November 2015 09: 35 New
        +2
        The Chinese can make quite high-quality equipment.
    5. Rus2012
      21 November 2015 10: 05 New
      +2
      Quote: Andrew Y.
      22460 project will be with Chinese diesels!

      The key is
      1. diesel engines of Germany, as planned
      2. The chief designer of the project of the Northern Design Bureau (SPKB) Alexey Naumov specified that power plants of this type in China are manufactured under a German license. "These are products that the Chinese produce based on German development," he said.

      3. in the Russian Federation of high-speed diesel engines of such aggregate power, satisfying customer requirements, "Not currently", said a representative of Almaz. And to make a diesel engine on time, it’s not two fingers ... like that.
    6. APASUS
      APASUS 21 November 2015 10: 51 New
      +3
      Quote: Andrew Y.
      project 22460 will be with Chinese diesels! .... how they cut in under your breath ... your mother’s import substitution! am

      I can’t understand this naivety or not the concept of the situation with import substitution?
      To create a modern diesel engine and launch it in a series is 3-5 years, taking into account homework and real financing, but what year do you want to replace everything imported?
    7. Vadim237
      Vadim237 21 November 2015 10: 59 New
      +1
      It takes several years to develop and build a diesel engine - this is not done quickly.
    8. The comment was deleted.
    9. samoletil18
      samoletil18 21 November 2015 11: 57 New
      0
      Do not be nervous. The news is not new.
    10. svp67
      svp67 21 November 2015 15: 16 New
      0
      hi
      Quote: Andrew Y.
      project 22460 will be with Chinese diesels! .... how they cut in under your breath ... your mother’s import substitution!
      There are also THREE moments:
      - this is the first purchase for our law enforcement agencies, something in China
      - these diesel engines, structurally and in terms of characteristics, exactly the same as under which they were designed and built.
      - so much everything was destroyed and in fact little was done, that it takes time and effort to reach a normal level. It is a pity that with the GTE we have the same picture.
    11. g1v2
      g1v2 21 November 2015 17: 26 New
      0
      Import substitution is a process for years, and we need a ship now. Tantrum is not the case here. At the beginning of the year, only Ukrainian products for our VPK had to replace 826 items. Western - 127 items. That is, industry needs to master the production of thousands of items of different products - that is, to build dozens of new industries and expand or re-equip hundreds of old ones. A worthy task of the Stalin five-year plans. For 2015, it was planned to replace about 110 items. That is, import substitution will go on for another 8 years. The main will be replaced by the year 2020, the most necessary - approximately by 2018. Before that, we will dodge how it turns out. On cotton dozens of new industries do not arise and this will require tens of billions of dollars from the budget of the Moscow Region and time. Whether someone likes it or not is a reality. hi
  2. slovak007
    slovak007 21 November 2015 06: 31 New
    +4
    Your needs to be developed and done!
    1. Vadim237
      Vadim237 21 November 2015 11: 05 New
      +1
      Do who's stopping you - just keep in mind that production would be cost-effective, you need to produce several thousand engines a year.
  3. Man1
    Man1 21 November 2015 06: 40 New
    +2
    Do we have something of our own? request
    1. Denis DV
      Denis DV 21 November 2015 07: 21 New
      +2
      It’s complete, but for these watchdogs, German-Chinese engines will go just right, they are economically more profitable, without a costlier link (Germany).
    2. arlekin
      arlekin 21 November 2015 10: 43 New
      +4
      Our war is only war, the rest is import. (C) wassat
  4. sub307
    sub307 21 November 2015 06: 47 New
    +9
    "! .... how they punched me under my breath ..." I personally didn’t understand who and to whom ".... But the fact that" and in the Russian Federation there are high-speed diesel engines of such aggregate power that meets the requirements of the customer, " currently no "..." is not the best emotions. There are specialists, there are factories - diesel engines "net" ... but yes, we also have ship gas turbines "net", but they say that they will ... tomorrow, although the ships already seem to be there. But this is so ..., by the way, the “parallel" is so to speak. "And, as regards diesel engines and" import substitution, "well," Duc "replaced one import (German) with another import (Chinese) and ... these are" import substitution "made, you can attach a" paw to the ear "and" cheerfully report.
  5. igorra
    igorra 21 November 2015 06: 48 New
    +8
    And what do you want, your engine will appear with a wave of our wand, for 25 years we have been releasing instead of accountancy engineers, lawyers and economists. It is necessary to grow 2 times more breadcrumbs for more than one year, but here is diesel. How many people who graduated from universities on the topic of internal combustion engines work by profession, it turns out you don’t want to, but you demand from others, you can try it yourself. (I’m a mechanic by training, but I'm building, so I'm not buzzing)
    1. Ilya77
      Ilya77 21 November 2015 13: 33 New
      +2
      Quote: igorra
      And what do you want, your engine will appear with a wave of our wand, for 25 years we have been releasing instead of accountancy engineers, lawyers and economists. It is necessary to grow 2 times more breadcrumbs for more than one year, but here is diesel. How many people who graduated from universities on the topic of internal combustion engines work by profession, it turns out you don’t want to, but you demand from others, you can try it yourself. (I’m a mechanic by training, but I'm building, so I'm not buzzing)

      BOB, engineers enough and let out enough, and here with employment problems.
  6. Vityok
    Vityok 21 November 2015 06: 59 New
    +3
    It is necessary to raise and develop our industry from its “knees”, then we will have everything! And then one "bazaar" - import substitution, import substitution ... Some words! request
    1. Azitral
      Azitral 21 November 2015 09: 48 New
      +3
      Someone Cherkashin, a submariner and writer, visited, if I’m not mistaken, some of the Los Angeles’s main impressions: he was full of parts and devices from Germany, Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, Singapore, etc. I - entirely for the development of a universal and flexible industry in the Russian Federation, believe me. But, trying to do EVERYTHING, you will do it, at best, mediocre. One of the reasons for the collapse of our mechanical engineering after the collapse of the USSR: almost everything, and not all. That is why there is an international division of labor. And it’s very, very convenient when you “share” it with vassals. The United States could, and still can rely on its external suppliers. Authorship, which, in fact, you offer, is reliable, but extremely expensive and does not allow you to do it at the highest world level - that's all. In the Russian Federation now they are doing something that no one is doing, and something is better than anyone else in the world. I would have to list for a long time. But you still have to buy, because it is IMPOSSIBLE to compete with the whole world and have a decent standard of living so that people do not compare and don’t squint over the hill.
      1. Andrey NM
        Andrey NM 21 November 2015 11: 41 New
        +2
        Quote: Azitral
        Someone Cherkashin, a submariner and writer, visited, if I'm not mistaken

        This submariner and writer of the remote control decrypts this abbreviation as "personal respiratory device." And that's it. And suddenly there were no engines for helicopters, and electronics in Ukraine were suddenly made. And suddenly it turned out that in many key areas we have a solid screwdriver assembly. It’s good that rocket science is still breathing somehow ...
        1. Azitral
          Azitral 21 November 2015 14: 59 New
          +1
          I'm not a little about that, do not you think? Where did you see cheers-patriotism or something else like that? Or do you have accurate information that on US nuclear submarines components are exclusively manufactured by them? WHAT FOR?
    2. Bayonet
      Bayonet 21 November 2015 14: 21 New
      +2
      Quote: Vitek
      Industry must be raised from its “knees”

      It is necessary, it is necessary, it is necessary, it is necessary, it is necessary, it is necessary, it is necessary, it is necessary - has not it risen yet? - it is necessary, it is necessary, it is necessary, it is necessary ........ what
      1. BMW
        BMW 21 November 2015 15: 03 New
        +1
        Quote: Bayonet
        It is necessary, it is necessary, it is necessary, it is necessary, it is necessary, it is necessary, it is necessary, it is necessary - has not it risen yet? - it is necessary, it is necessary, it is necessary, it is necessary

        Yeah, how many naked woman do not show a eunuch, there is no sense in him anyway. laughing
        In Soviet diesel engines there were two problems: efficiency and resource. Money was not particularly considered then. Therefore, problems arose.
        I can’t understand some commentators here. Who is stopping the engine from playing? There is not much time for this - the main desire. And alas, it’s just not there.
      2. IS-80
        IS-80 21 November 2015 15: 51 New
        +1
        Quote: Bayonet
        Must

        When I once again hear this word, just longing for some kind of soul takes. It immediately becomes clear that without a good kick no one will do anything. laughing
  7. Patriot C
    Patriot C 21 November 2015 07: 43 New
    +2
    Well, German engines were replaced by Chinese ones, well, there will be an overhaul period shorter, and ships will spend 3 times more time in repair docks. what is the reason for joy here? or have the Chinese "lifans" become better than the German "mans"? request
    1. donavi49
      donavi49 21 November 2015 09: 40 New
      +2
      Well, what to do? And the reliability of the Chinese is higher than that of Kolomna.

      By the way, Pella also renegotiated contracts directly to China, and to CAT (they used to work with Chinese, but through the parent CAT) and to licensed clones of RR columns.
    2. Andrey NM
      Andrey NM 21 November 2015 17: 32 New
      +1
      By the way, about the "Lifans". The father has "Lifan X60". For 2 years, nothing broke or fell off. In the hydraulic booster on a revocable tube changed. Although I’m still skeptical about the Chinese auto industry.
  8. pioner
    pioner 21 November 2015 08: 48 New
    0
    Shame on our country !!!
  9. parusnik
    parusnik 21 November 2015 08: 59 New
    +1
    Hi Germany, the 22460 project will be with Chinese diesel engines!..Sorry not with my ...
  10. Andryukha G
    Andryukha G 21 November 2015 09: 01 New
    +1
    The situation with the engines for border boats is similar to the problem with the Mistral, the Chinese engines installed for only one simple reason - they were needed today, Russia tomorrow (figuratively speaking) will arrange production at home, as it arranges and produces helicopter engines, which are in a large percentage (up to 50-70%) came from Ukraine.
    1. donavi49
      donavi49 21 November 2015 09: 31 New
      +2
      There are two problems with ship engines:
      - Reliability, extremely low.
      - Low power exhaust per volume / mass.

      For frigate corvettes, this is bearable (and then on the same 20385 with D49, the maximum speed design sags to 24, against 28 design MTUs), but on small ones it is very strong.

      According to calculations, at the maximum capacity of the Star, the speed of 25 nodes would have pierced, which is generally not acceptable for a guard. The unit on the baby D49 would be even less specific power.

      New engines do, but rather sluggishly:
      - D50 is a new series, but they are again made under diesel locomotives with the money of Russian Railways. The fleet there is a side customer, who was ordered to serve. This is generally the trouble of Kolomna-Navy.
      - The star is trying to rebuild its engine, to a modern ratio of power and weight.
  11. martin-159
    martin-159 21 November 2015 09: 14 New
    +4
    Import substitution. Import will be replaced by Chinese!
  12. Dimon19661
    Dimon19661 21 November 2015 09: 25 New
    0
    Quote: mark1
    We have high-speed diesel engines manufactured by the Zvezda OJSC M507 series and so on. For a long time they were the best in the world. Are they now, at times, worse than the German-Chinese?

    It is very strange that they do not want to use them .. They were intended for ships of similar dimensions, and with their power (10000 hp) they would have provided a speed of 30 knots.
    1. gjv
      gjv 21 November 2015 10: 35 New
      0
      Quote: Dimon19661
      It is very strange that they do not want to use them ..

      The answer is ...
      Quote: lwxx
      If the quality of the engines is the same as on the diesel generators supplied to us at the power plants, then the ships will stand forever in repair.

      Of course, it doesn’t last forever, and nevertheless, unfortunately, the life of domestic diesel engines to overhaul 1000-6000 hours against 30000-90000 German hours. What is the resource of Chinese products? request Apparently we find out.
    2. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 21 November 2015 17: 14 New
      0
      Quote: Dimon19661
      It is very strange that they do not want to use them .. They were intended for ships of similar dimensions, and with their power (10000 hp) they would have provided a speed of 30 knots.

      It’s not the speed that matters to the frontier, but the resource. For they spend much more time at sea than the ships of the Navy. And they have no way to keep half of the fleet against the wall for maintenance or repair.

      "Star" is a GEM for short-distance runners. But border guards need a power plant for a marathon runner. smile
  13. lwxx
    lwxx 21 November 2015 09: 29 New
    +3
    If the quality of the engines is the same as on the diesel generators supplied to us at the power plants, then the ships will stand forever in repair. am
  14. Awaz
    Awaz 21 November 2015 09: 44 New
    +1
    so crap so crap. Although there is nowhere to go. The only thing I think is that they still make their engines and when they bring them to condition.
  15. Cap.Morgan
    Cap.Morgan 21 November 2015 09: 47 New
    0
    Put the Chinese engines, so what?
    So they are no worse than German, and most importantly, if they need only a few pieces, it makes no sense to bother with production.
    Somehow, nobody is nervous about the fact that 90% of all the clothes that expensive Russians wear are Chinese. Chinese products in stores. Chinese shoes, computers, electronics ...
    The main trend and political will.
    On the contrary, China has demonstrated that despite the sanctions, it will supply us with almost any components and equipment. We can buy there the whole range of goods in any quantity.
  16. Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 21 November 2015 10: 08 New
    +1
    About 10 years ago Developed countries were monopolists in technology. After Germany will be rolled in several tenders for engines and the Chinese will sell engines, the Germans will immediately become more flexible in prices and the moral commission will go in the ass. Germany also drove the Turks with MTU tank diesel engines. But China is already making such diesel engines, copies of the MTU. Tank engine is a more highly loaded design, it is more difficult to do, but time will pass and ....
  17. Fonmeg
    Fonmeg 21 November 2015 10: 24 New
    +1
    In a barrel of honey a fly in the ointment! It is clear that this is the result of the treacherous, thieves' policy of the previous state power, but the time has come to correct it, and the progress has not yet been especially felt! Neither in the agro-industrial sector of the economy, nor in the defense industry! Are we again waiting for the benefits of oil and the return of the goodwill of Western "friends"?
    1. anip
      anip 21 November 2015 17: 55 New
      0
      Quote: Fonmeg
      It is clear that this is the result of the treacherous, thieves policy of the previous state power

      Uh-uh, but for 16 years what has the current government been doing? Isn't it the same?
  18. v.yegorov
    v.yegorov 21 November 2015 10: 24 New
    0
    Quote: pioner
    Shame on our country !!!

    We cannot produce a lot of things ourselves, so why shout the shame on the country. Much
    just became unprofitable due to the small population, a lot lost with the loss
    cooperation, lost a huge amount of technology because of the so-called
    "embedding" in the world market and the loss of specialists. Now we are slowly recovering from key technologies, you cannot immediately grasp the immensity and be
    everywhere first.
  19. Alex1977RUS
    Alex1977RUS 21 November 2015 10: 31 New
    +1
    Quote: ruslan
    in-in, very damn "good news"! the Chinese have already descended

    Quote: pioner
    Shame on our country !!!

    Quote: Vitek
    It is necessary to raise and develop our industry from its “knees”, then we will have everything! And then one "bazaar" - import substitution, import substitution ... Some words! request

    Or maybe, before hysteria, turn on the head?
    We do not have our own engines of a similar class, and we will not expect in the near future.
    The Germans would probably have given us, which is unlikely, subject to sanctions, only the engines themselves and the minimum technical documentation necessary for maintenance.
    And the Chinese have a complete technical package. They make them. Modern engines.
    By license, but by yourself. Factories in which they are made.
    Here they are drawings, here they are technical maps, here they are machines, here they are all the nuances, carefully, with German pedantry painted. And the people who make them can explain subtle places.
    Turn on the head again and draw the CORRECT conclusions.
  20. Bator
    Bator 21 November 2015 10: 36 New
    +1
    You cannot wave a magic wand and nothing will appear on its own! Need time. For the last time (3-4 years), several representatives of the foreign automotive industry turned to orders: “Guys, to have your components, you do them to us, but by our (EU and US) standards. We will not offend orders.” And we still have Soviet equipment. We rushed into one organization, they say design and manufacture. They are in response: we have 3 engineers and 10 workers left (in the early 90s - a 9-story building and two factories). They left, left the country, and bow to the Chinese. May be help. Why not your own?
  21. Mayor_U
    Mayor_U 21 November 2015 11: 08 New
    +2

    Found something to be proud of! The joyful optimism of the author of the article is not clear. Diesel is not ours, unfortunately.
  22. X
    X Y Z 21 November 2015 11: 19 New
    0
    The ship’s armament is one 30-mm automatic six-barreled artillery mount and two 12,7-mm machine guns. Technically, it is possible to deploy launchers of the Uran anti-ship missiles and the A-220M art installations.


    I understand that this "maybe" is not done in 5 minutes and enhances the combat power of the ship at times. In what conditions is the retrofit made? In what configuration do we need this ship and how expedient is its production with a minimum of weapons?
    1. Alexey RA
      Alexey RA 21 November 2015 17: 20 New
      0
      Quote: XYZ
      In what conditions is retrofitting made?

      In the case of mobilization of the ship to the Navy. That is - at the beginning of the great war.
      Quote: XYZ
      In what configuration do we need this ship and how expedient is its production with a minimum of weapons?

      To solve the tasks posed to the Pskr, full-time armament 22460 is enough. They do not need to be drowned, but detained — moreover, it is highly desirable, without losses in the crew of the detained vessel.
      As practice has shown, 30-mm caliber shells are enough to bring the crews of trawlers, crabbolders, and even bulk carriers to life. Our border guards even managed to sink one 100-meter bulk carrier with fire from a 30-mm gun.
  23. Urals
    Urals 21 November 2015 11: 29 New
    -2
    Do not hang the nose of the midshipman !!! I believe, give time and the oceans will hear the rumble of OUR diesel engines. Give time to our industry. hi
  24. BNM
    BNM 21 November 2015 11: 43 New
    0
    Quote: Homo
    Quote: Andrew Y.
    project 22460 will be with Chinese diesels! .... how they cut in under your breath ... your mother’s import substitution! am

    You, trepachki already got !!! Maybe you are a "gin" or "Old Man Hottabych" or, at worst, "Golden Fish" ??? So grab a couple of dozens of the right engines in a couple of weeks. Weak? Of course, bazaar not tossing bags! If we do not produce them, if development and production take time, then what should we do? Do not build ships! am am am am am

    I fully support, I wonder why everyone decided that if Chinese means G ... apparently judged by low-quality household appliances that were produced in the basement and which they ran into lol .My profession is associated with industrial equipment and I can assure you that Chinese is not nearly as bad as the example of so much-praised Japanese or American equipment I have personally been convinced of this more than once yes
  25. chunga-changa
    chunga-changa 21 November 2015 12: 23 New
    +6
    Gorbachev is to blame, of course, there is absolutely nothing to do with Rozogin.
  26. lonovila
    lonovila 21 November 2015 15: 07 New
    0
    - With the same success, it would be possible to transfer the production of the Armata tank ... -Kharkiv tank factory ... -That is, Ukraine would be delighted ...
  27. chinArmy
    chinArmy 21 November 2015 15: 10 New
    +2
    Gorbachev, Yeltsin .. Sanctions, crisis .. In a couple of years you won’t create anything ..

    Somehow everyone forgot the "well-fed" zero, pre-crisis. No one thought to invest in production. All investments were in the oil industry. Now reaping the benefits of that policy

    The Chinese also began to make engines in more than one year. Who prevented us from making concessions for the deployment of storages and doing under license everything that is possible, as in China? For 10 calm years, it was possible to create so many technology parks with foreign capital that no one would dare to impose sanctions. And there they themselves would take over the experience

    Nobody thought about it (up there), sawed off the budget, sat on an oil needle ..
    1. anip
      anip 21 November 2015 17: 53 New
      +3
      Quote: chinArmy
      Nobody thought about it (up there), sawed off the budget, sat on an oil needle ..

      Yes, what are you ?? Everyone got up from their knees ...
  28. tinibar
    tinibar 21 November 2015 15: 17 New
    +1
    Quote: Andrew Y.
    project 22460 will be with Chinese diesels! .... how they cut in under your breath ... your mother’s import substitution! am

    Unfortunately, import substitution is just a word. And China in this case sounds no sweeter than Germany. I understand that ship diesel cannot be designed and put into production in a year. It’s all the more insulting for “wasted” years and even decades. crying
  29. Dimon19661
    Dimon19661 21 November 2015 15: 32 New
    +2
    Quote: gjv
    Quote: Dimon19661
    It is very strange that they do not want to use them ..

    The answer is ...
    Quote: lwxx
    If the quality of the engines is the same as on the diesel generators supplied to us at the power plants, then the ships will stand forever in repair.

    Of course, it doesn’t last forever, and nevertheless, unfortunately, the life of domestic diesel engines to overhaul 1000-6000 hours against 30000-90000 German hours. What is the resource of Chinese products? request Apparently we find out.

    If you don’t know the topic, then you don’t have to write nonsense - 90 hours, my friend any mechanic will laugh at you.
  30. Storyteller
    Storyteller 21 November 2015 17: 39 New
    0
    The Chinese are a diligent nation. If they honestly buy a full license, with technology, then the products they get are quite solid: take at least Lifan rattles for motoblocks. And if you try to clean clean, you get an airplane engine with three times less resource. The Germans, it seems they took a full license.
  31. anip
    anip 21 November 2015 17: 52 New
    +1
    The new patrol ships of the Frontier Service of the FSB of the 22460 project will be equipped with diesel installations made in the PRC and not in the Federal Republic of Germany, as planned, Deputy Chief Engineer of the Almaz Shipbuilding Company Ilyaz Mukhutdinov told 16 in November at a press conference in the TASS regional center in St. Petersburg.

    Yes, ah, really, there is something to be proud of hurray Utriot, because this is the import substitution of Putin in all its glory.
  32. sa-ag
    sa-ag 21 November 2015 18: 03 New
    0
    the Chinese have a trend - to make it cheap so that there are no competitors, hence there may be questions about the quality of metal in mechanical engineering
  33. cap
    cap 21 November 2015 18: 59 New
    +1
    I have a Japanese laptop assembled in China from which I can not understand
    There are no questions, because I have not sorted it in 5 years even once.
    You just have to work on the bugs.
    Those who should do this.
  34. Kuzyakin15
    Kuzyakin15 21 November 2015 19: 56 New
    0
    Quote: Alex1977RUS
    Quote: ruslan
    in-in, very damn "good news"! the Chinese have already descended

    Quote: pioner
    Shame on our country !!!

    Quote: Vitek
    It is necessary to raise and develop our industry from its “knees”, then we will have everything! And then one "bazaar" - import substitution, import substitution ... Some words! request

    Or maybe, before hysteria, turn on the head?
    We do not have our own engines of a similar class, and we will not expect in the near future.
    The Germans would probably have given us, which is unlikely, subject to sanctions, only the engines themselves and the minimum technical documentation necessary for maintenance.
    And the Chinese have a complete technical package. They make them. Modern engines.
    By license, but by yourself. Factories in which they are made.
    Here they are drawings, here they are technical maps, here they are machines, here they are all the nuances, carefully, with German pedantry painted. And the people who make them can explain subtle places.
    Turn on the head again and draw the CORRECT conclusions.

    I climbed into the net looking for information how much the Russian Federation paid to Ukraine and the Germans for undelivered ship engines. I came across an interview with Mr. Rakhmanov. So: the decision to deploy the so-called “Import substitution” was announced back in 2008. It seems. But as always with us, the guarantor crowed, and those who were supposed to hear and rush to fulfill did not even move the rolls.
    Total....
    As always, until the thunder strikes .....
  35. kondrat13
    kondrat13 21 November 2015 20: 03 New
    0
    It is not clear why the “metal cutting” for such a ship cannot be painted white - the artillery does not fit very well in the ball paint. Somebody knows?
  36. Sergei 34
    Sergei 34 21 November 2015 20: 12 New
    -1
    "Good" news ... for the Chinese. I hesitate to ask, but with us, what engines do not know how to do?
  37. zamkadish13
    zamkadish13 21 November 2015 21: 08 New
    0
    Waste ship Mitrofan Enko?
    I read the article when from 11 years. They are sawing it for scrap, and the ministry is planning to buy it. And now 2015, there are no Ministers. BDK is not new. He smashed the phone against the wall with anger.
  38. mvg
    mvg 21 November 2015 22: 17 New
    0
    Quote: TarIK2017
    I would not make such unfounded allegations with a hand on my heart ... Just the same, in the USSR there was a very strong engine school. As for the "reinterpretation of Western models," for good, all the currently existing engines are a rethinking of the designs of the same Diesel, etc.

    Seriously? And are there any examples?
    Russia has never pulled “ahead of the rest” in terms of engines. A striking example is the Second World War, all aircraft engine models are bourgeois licenses. Rolls-Royces, Merlinov, Pratt & Whitney, BMW, Junkers .. Our engineers simply developed them, improved them .. M-105 (VK-105) then VK-107, etc.
    After the war, they bought the British “Nene” and “Derwent” from Rolls Royce from the British, so the MiG-15 appeared.
    And further, is there really, say, in tank building that there is something better than the German MTU MB873 diesel.
    No one argues that the dviglo on Grant or KAMAZ are inferior to their German counterparts ..?
    On the T-72 was a distant relative of the T-34 V-2 engine, I don’t think that it is so brilliant ..

    The Chinese went the same way. We bought licenses from the Germans .. are developing our own .. By the way, we are fortunate that we bought from the Chinese what we need without altering the entire boat project .. Literally in the same seats. And do not wait for "import substitution", and customize the entire project for this.
    1. sergei.84
      sergei.84 21 November 2015 23: 52 New
      0
      What’s good for a Russian is a German ..... Shipbuilders can do it well, but for the exploiters ... My brother spent all his life driving a steering wheel from KAMAZ, they put him on a Chinese worker at a construction site in Sochi. All in all, he braked the engine once with an old habit and the rocker arms are bent! But in the sea you can’t stand on the sidelines, I know it by myself.
  39. Radikal
    Radikal 21 November 2015 23: 19 New
    0
    [quote = Vadim237] In order to develop and build a diesel engine for several years, this is not done quickly. [/ quote Sacramental question- What have you been doing for 23 years (from 1991 to 2015)!? winked
  40. Seventh
    Seventh 21 November 2015 23: 50 New
    +1
    Quote: Kuzyakin15
    ... But as always with us, the guarantor crowed, and those who were supposed to hear and rush to fulfill did not even move the rolls.
    Total....
    As always, until the thunder strikes .....
    ..That is, - .. and all those responsible for the implementation of this "crow", as usual ... on their incubated perches and in .. chocolate. The result ....., not a guarantor is ... a cock .. lol
  41. aerspb
    aerspb 22 November 2015 01: 47 New
    0
    Quote: ruslan
    in-in, very damn "good news"! the Chinese have already descended sad


    Nothing, in a year - another and we will go down to domestic ones. Everything has its time.
  42. Dimon19661
    Dimon19661 22 November 2015 02: 24 New
    +2
    Quote: sergei.84
    What’s good for a Russian is a German ..... Shipbuilders can do it well, but for the exploiters ... My brother spent all his life driving a steering wheel from KAMAZ, they put him on a Chinese worker at a construction site in Sochi. All in all, he braked the engine once with an old habit and the rocker arms are bent! But in the sea you can’t stand on the sidelines, I know it by myself.

    And how does engine braking affect the rocker arms ??? Do not write nonsense. We have had the entire Asia-Pacific summit taken out by Chinese HOWO, and nothing is normal, not Volvo, of course, but dump trucks are better than KAMAZ.
    1. sergei.84
      sergei.84 22 November 2015 19: 04 New
      0
      I’m not a kamazist, but especially for you, the Chinese have a mountain brake that blocks the exhaust outlet, I’ll think about it later ... My brother says that KAMAZ cars are being produced so that the Chinese nervously smoke aside. I didn’t notice the lies before and now I believe .
      1. Dimon19661
        Dimon19661 23 November 2015 05: 12 New
        0
        You look, I’m not a diesel engineer, such a mountain brake is on almost all the trucks equipped with them, what is the connection with the bent rockers? The new KAMAZ trucks are almost Mercedes-engines and cabs taken from the Germans, by the way, too.
  43. Xapoh
    Xapoh 22 November 2015 12: 07 New
    0
    Quote: man in the street
    The B-2 engine life was less than 100 hours.

    Moreover, this is the engine resource at the stand; in real conditions, the service life was even lower.
  44. Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 22 November 2015 21: 59 New
    0
    100 hours of T-34 was enough.
  45. Wolka
    Wolka 23 November 2015 07: 59 New
    0
    so be it for now, then everything will be Russian, I believe ...
  46. red_october
    red_october 23 November 2015 09: 56 New
    0
    For reflection and to continue the topic, an article from the National Defense
    (the beginning of the article with Mistral is no longer relevant, but further thoughts are not without common sense)

    Buy from the Chinese? Why not?

    Today, when passions about the Mistral-type landing helicopter dock ships (DVKD) being built for Russia in France (“will they deliver or not deliver?”), It seems the same to raise the issue of importing naval equipment for the Russian Navy inappropriate how to talk about the rope in the house of the hanged man. Nevertheless, this topic, in our opinion, is more relevant than ever.
    Take the same "Mistral" that should replenish, if everything goes well, the Pacific Fleet (Pacific Fleet). The first of them - Vladivostok - is planned to be transferred to the place of permanent basing by the end of next year, the second - Sevastopol - a year later. And who will escort the Russian Mistals? Russia's surface forces in the vast Far Eastern Ocean Theater are extremely scarce. In service - the Varyag missile cruiser and four large anti-submarine ships of the 1155 project. All of them were built in Soviet times and are intensively operated. They can often be seen not only in the Japanese, Okhotsk and other seas adjoining our shores, but also near the Horn of Africa, where they protect civilian vessels from pirate raids, as well as in the Mediterranean Sea in missions of the Russian Navy. From the three destroyer destroyers of the Pacific Fleet of the 956 project, related to ships of the main classes, there is little use. And not only because they are intended primarily for the execution of shock, and not escort and anti-submarine missions. Two of them are repaired indefinitely. The third - “Quick” - in May of this year took part in the Russian-Chinese exercises “Maritime Interaction-2014”. But the command, apparently, does not risk letting him go further than the East China Sea. Already very unreliable in ships of this type is a boiler turbine power plant. What an escort is there when the 956 destroyers themselves need constant escort of tugboats. So, just in case.
    But each Mistral needs security from two to three, and ideally from four patrol ships, preferably of the frigate class. But even earlier than the French DVKD, two strategic missile submarines of the 955 project will arrive in Kamchatka: “Alexander Nevsky” and “Vladimir Monomakh”. Their appearance is expected at the end of this or the beginning of next year. The bases of these SSBNs need constant and reliable cover on the far approaches to them by surface ships, submarines and aircraft. Surface ships are necessary for the safe deployment of strategic submarines.
  47. red_october
    red_october 23 November 2015 09: 57 New
    0
    Where to get the required surface ships PLO and escort? The domestic shipbuilding industry is picking up pace, but with a creak. Now, two 20380 project corvettes are being built at the Amur Shipyard for the needs of the Pacific Fleet. When they go into operation, it is not yet clear. The main one - “Perfect” - is promised to be commissioned in the 2015 year. But this is far from a fact. His launch and the timing of delivery of the Navy have been postponed more than once. And two of these ships are too small for reliable protection of even one Mistral. A new generation of frigates of the 22350 project is being assembled at the Severnaya Verf shipyard in St. Petersburg to replenish the Northern and Pacific fleets. The head "Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Gorshkov" was laid down on February 1 2006 of the year. Launched it on the water 29 October 2010 year. Since then, the ship has been standing at the outfitting embankment of the plant and can not tear herself away from it in any way. The reason for long-term construction is complex. Here and underfunding, and the unavailability of individual samples of weapons and electronic equipment, and the disruption of the equipment supply schedule. According to the most optimistic estimates, the frigate will go on sea trials no earlier than late autumn of this or spring of next year. Five more ships of this type are being built or ordered. But when they are brought to a state of readiness, today no one can say.
    Problems with these ships were further exacerbated by the Kiev embargo on the supply of gas turbine power plants (GTU) to enterprises of the Russian shipbuilding industry. To date, only two M56 units with 60000 horsepower have been manufactured and delivered by Severnaya Verf. for frigates "Admiral of the Fleet of the Soviet Union Gorshkov" and "Admiral of the Fleet Kasatonov". The question of equipping these engines with four other ships of this type is currently open. A similar situation has developed in the Baltic Yantar Shipyard, on which five frigates of the 11356P / M project for the Black Sea Fleet are being built. Three gas turbine units M7H1 with a capacity of 54000 hp were delivered to the Kaliningrad shipyard from Ukraine to complete three ships. The money for the production of three more gas turbines was paid, but it is unlikely that the order will be completed. It seems that is why the laying of the sixth ship of the series is delayed.
    As the representative of the Turborus company (a joint venture of the Rybinsk NPO Saturn and the Nikolaev company Zorya-Mashproekt) said, this joint venture takes care of the Ukrainian-made gas turbine units. Moreover, it will fully provide installation supervision and commissioning work on ships under construction, since Kiev recalled the brigades that were supposed to carry out this work.
    But what to do with the buildings on which the gas turbines are not installed? Indeed, according to the head of the United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) Alexei Rakhmanov, only by the end of 2016, that is, two years later, in our country, tests of gas turbine units for warships will begin. There are developments confirmed by bench tests in this area. M75RU engines with 7000 horsepower, M70FRU engines with 14000 hp and M90FR with a power of 27500 hp, which are the fourth generation highly efficient automated marine gas turbine plants. However, their refinement to mass production takes time.
    That is why it makes sense to buy ship gas turbines from China. Moreover, they are very close to what Russian ships need, since they are a further development of gas turbines of the Ukrainian company Zorya-Mashproekt. (To date, shipborne gas turbines are produced by the British company Rolls-Royce, the American corporation General Electric and the Ukrainian company Zorya-Mashproekt. More recently, China joined this elite club).
    A very radical solution to the shortage of naval personnel in the Pacific Fleet could be the acquisition of military units directly from China.
  48. red_october
    red_october 23 November 2015 09: 58 New
    0
    For many decades, the Naval Forces of the People's Liberation Army of China (PLA Navy) were created with the direct or indirect participation of the Soviet and then the Russian defense industry. But time is running out. And now the students have noticeably overtaken their teachers, especially in the field of surface shipbuilding. Therefore, it is not a sin to turn to them for assistance. Moreover, Beijing will benefit from the strengthening of the Russian fleet in the Far East, since it will help the PLA Navy balance the balance of forces with the US Navy and the Japanese Naval Self-Defense Forces and even achieve a certain advantage over them.
    In China, many surface ships of various projects are being built today. The most optimal for the Russian Navy, in our opinion, are frigates of the 054A type (Jiangkai-II - according to the NATO classification). They are assembled at the Hudong-Zhonghua shipyards in Shanghai and Huangpu in Guangzhou since 2005, that is, they are almost the same age as our 22350 project. To date, the PLA Navy has 16 ships of this type, four are launched, and two are in the assembly stage on the slipways. Taking into account two pre-production ships of the 054 type, which have a weaker composition of armaments, by 2016 the Chinese fleet will have 24 such frigates.
    The total displacement of frigates of the type 054A is 4050 m, length 131 m, and width 16 m. Equipped with an economical diesel power plant, they develop a maximum 27-nodal speed. Cruising range is more than 8000 miles. Crew - 165 people. The armament includes two quadruple C-803 missile launchers designed for firing at sea and coastal targets, an 32 vertical-launch launcher for HQ-16 air defense missiles, an 76-mm PJ26 universal artillery gun, and two seven-barrel 30-mm short-range defense machine , two three-pipe 730-mm anti-submarine torpedo tubes and two 324-mm six-barrel RBU. There is a hangar and a platform for placing one Ka-240 or Z-28C helicopter.
    Why did 054A frigates get our attention? There are several reasons for this. Firstly, their creation was carried out with the participation of the St. Petersburg Northern PKB - the leading Russian design organization for surface ships of the main classes, including frigates of the 11356 and 22350 projects. Secondly, they are equipped with weapons and electronic equipment, created mainly on the basis of Russian samples, that is, in terms of weight and size, they are easily replaceable with domestic products. Thus, the HQ-16 air defense system is a Chinese version of the Shtil-1 anti-aircraft missile system. The main artillery caliber is the 76-mm PJ26 installation is a lightweight version of the Russian AK-176, also clad in a Stels tower. Fregat-MAE-5 radar, MP-90 Nut and Mineral-ME radar are installed on the ships. According to some sources, the ships also have the Russian hydro-acoustic station MGK-335.
    Thirdly, of course, 054A frigates meet the modern requirements for ships of this class in terms of armament, low visibility, seaworthiness and cruising range. They are excellent walkers and famously plow the waters of the Pacific and Indian Oceans, the Atlantic, the Mediterranean and the Black Seas.
    Finally, in recent Russian-Chinese exercises, these PLA naval frigates interacted well with the Varyag cruiser, the large Admiral Panteleev anti-submarine ship of the 1155 project, the Rapid destroyer destroyer of the 956 project, and other ships and vessels of the Pacific Fleet. That is, they fit well into the Russian “ensemble”, which is important for their adaptation to operation in our conditions.
  49. red_october
    red_october 23 November 2015 10: 00 New
    0
    Of course, the Russian version of the frigate, which we conventionally call the project 054R or 054P, that is, "054 Russian", will differ from the prototype. On ships of the Navy, it is advisable to install already well-developed weapons systems. For example, the Hurricane-Tornado anti-aircraft missile system with 9M317M missiles will replace the Chinese HQ-16 air defense system. In the middle part of the hull at the site of the C-803 anti-ship missile launchers, as well as along the sides of the helicopter hangar, vertical launchers of the integrated caliber-NK or Onyx missile system can be placed. And if such a solution proves to be too costly, then these missiles, like the Chinese ones, will take their place in inclined container launchers. Instead of the PJ26 gun mount, it would be desirable to install a more powerful 100-mm Universal A190 gun, and instead of the 30-mm 730 short-range defense machines of the same type, twelve-barrel domestic Duet systems of the same caliber. Of course, there will be a replacement for anti-submarine weapons: the 324-mm torpedo tubes will be replaced by the Package-NK complex, and the 240-mm rocket-propelled bombs - RBU-6000.
    New Russian armaments and equipment can be installed on ships directly at Chinese shipyards or at the Far Eastern enterprises of the Russian Federation: Dalzavod or Zvezda. Given the high pace of shipbuilding in China, to 2018-2020 years. The Pacific Fleet can receive from 8 to 12 frigates of the 054P project. And this replenishment will significantly strengthen Russia's position in the region and will enable domestic industry without the force majeure to proceed with the construction of more advanced ships of the next generation.

    http://www.nationaldefense.ru/includes/periodics/navy/2014/0819/163813968/detail
    .shtml

    Start missiles complex HQ-16 on board the frigate Yulin type 054A.
  50. red_october
    red_october 23 November 2015 10: 31 New
    +2
    I am not an unambiguous supporter of paying for jobs in China, but it may happen that while we wait for ship diesel engines and gas turbines from our industry, it will be too late
    I mean that the use of such a resource as the Navy may be of greater importance in the coming 5 years than in subsequent 15-20, and we must seize the moment now.
    See how events are rapidly developing: the week has passed - and the next phase of the military operation and on the Chessboard are differently positioned.
    And perhaps you should consider a limited purchase of Chinese diesels / gas turbines or, possibly, whole frigates.
    In addition, 5-10 of new ships will be more relevant in 4-5 years (and Chinese industry, unlike ours, will pull, especially since we manufacture and install our weapons) than through 10 when these ships are made to us by our shipyards . Ours would fulfill orders for the 2 series: 11356 and 22350, not to mention the modernization of 1164 Ave. Atlantov, 1144.2 Ave. Orlanes and nuclear submarines.
    Although, yes, cats scratch their hearts that in this case this money will not settle in Russia ...
    1. Garris199
      Garris199 6 December 2015 04: 02 New
      0
      Engines can and should be taken, and placing orders for frigates is unlikely. As a result, we get such a variety, mom do not grieve. Efficiency will only suffer from this. Moreover, the pace of building their own ships of this class has reached an acceptable level. The problem is mainly with engines.