Military Review

Object for departure

141
The main part of the goals in Syria is affected by unmanaged weaponsused with high accuracy


The latest Russian developments allow the use of free-fall bombs with an accuracy corresponding to the best WTO models. On average, a little more than one sortie is required to destroy one object - 1,16. This is a very good result, given the fact that precision weapons are used by Russian aviation in Syria is very limited. The main means of destruction are uncontrolled weapons systems - NURS of various calibers and free-fall bombs.

There are almost no victims among the civilian population (it can be assumed that they exist, since the militants of the Islamic State place their objects in cities and towns near residential buildings). All this makes it necessary to carefully look at the means of destruction used by Russian aviation. After all, the actions of American aviation in similar conditions in Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya were accompanied by significant civilian casualties. They were especially great when American aircraft used free-fall bombs. Yes, and the consumption of weapons, a technical resource per one hit target, turned out to be significantly higher than it is now among Russian pilots in Syria. This is because with traditional use of free-fall bombs, dispersion is quite significant - the deviation of ammunition can vary from 150 to 400 meters, depending on the height of the drop and the method of approaching the aircraft. This means that the probability of a direct hit by a bomb in a small-sized target (ten by ten meters) is small and makes up a maximum of half a percent. Taking into account the possible area of ​​destruction by a medium-caliber bomb (250 kg) of ground objects, which are partially protected in engineering terms, the probability of damage increases to two percent. A typical strike aircraft, with a bomb load of four tons (16 bombs for 250 kg), is capable of hitting a protected underground object with a probability of up to eight percent, and a ground, unprotected one - with a probability of about 30 percent. Accordingly, to defeat a point object with an acceptable probability (0,6 – 0,8), a very decent outfit of tactical (front-line, assault) aviation is required - from a four-side link to one or two squadrons with a general 12 – 24 squadron. And to defeat well-defended underground structures with free-fall bombs, it will be necessary to plan already 70 – 80 and more sorties, as evidenced by the practice of combat use of aviation in military conflicts of the 20th century, for example, Vietnamese. In addition, in this case, huge losses are inevitable among the civilian population living near military sites: in an area with a radius of 150 – 400, meters from the target will fall and explode from 40 – 45 to 300 and more 250-kilogram bombs, while the rest will fall even further. Hardly any of the civilians in this area survive.

Bomb - fool, sight - well done

Russian planes, using free-fall bombs of medium (250 kg) and large caliber (500 kg), solve the problem of hitting point well-protected objects (including underground ones) with small forces - one or two aircraft. And this is in conditions when the militants of the “Islamic State” have been under attack by the US and NATO aviation for a long time and managed to take measures to minimize their losses, one of which was the placement of its infrastructure as possible within the residential area to hide behind civilians. Meanwhile, no noticeable losses among him from the strikes of Russian aviation have been reported so far. Military experts explain this by saying that the bulk of the Russian aircraft sent to Syria are equipped with the latest domestic development of the SVP-24. The idea behind this system is to provide not accurate homing at the target of the ammunition, but the correct conclusion to the point of discharge of unmanaged means of destruction of their carrier. By this, our system is fundamentally different from the American concept of turning conventional bombs into precision weapons - JDAM. The US is installing kits on free-fall bombs that will target them using GPS data. That is, they turned ordinary bombs into controlled ones. It is clear that the cost of such a bomb increases significantly (the kit costs about 26 thousands of dollars), although it remains substantially less than a full-fledged precision-guided munition. SVP-24 provides for combining the target with the location of the carrier, adjusted for the flight path of the bomb, calculated by the on-board computer complex taking into account the hydrometeorological conditions and its ballistics. Thus, conventional ammunition acquires performance, commensurate with high-precision weapons. The developers claim that the accuracy of bombing, even from a height of five to six kilometers, can be extremely high. Testing in polygon conditions gave a standard deviation of 250 – 500-kilogram bomb from the target of about four to seven meters. It is clear that in a combat situation, additional factors are superimposed that significantly reduce the accuracy of bombing. This is primarily an error in determining the coordinates of the target, which can reach several meters. There is no complete information about the hydrometeorological situation, the state of the air environment in the target area. An additional few meters of error will determine the location of the carrier according to GLONASS data in the combat zone. Coordinates are somewhat distorted during sharp maneuvering in the target area. Taking into account all these factors, one can estimate the accuracy of the combat use of free-fall bombs using the SVP-24 indicator in 20 – 25 meters. In this case, the probability of hitting a small sized underground structure can be 30 – 40 percent, and the probability of hitting poorly protected ground objects with an average caliber can reach 60 percent. This is quite enough to carry out a highly accurate and reliable defeat of the designated targets with a limited composition of forces: even for a strongly protected small-sized object, three or four bombs are sufficient to apply, and a weakly protected one will be guaranteed to be destroyed by two ammunition. At the same time, the zone of destruction near the target object will not exceed several tens of meters, which is comparable with the distance between individual buildings in a typical urban area. Thus, having 12 – 16 bombs of medium and large caliber, equipped with the SVP-24 system, the Su-24М aircraft is capable of destroying up to two point infrastructures of the Islamists in one flight. It is probably for this reason that, on average, there is a little more than one sortie on each struck object (we must not forget that strike aircraft are accompanied by support aircraft, in particular fighters). At the same time, the cost of ammunition compared to high-precision weapons or bombs equipped with a JDAM kit, remains penny. In fairness, we note that the accuracy of a JDAM bomb will be higher - five to seven meters. That is, the probability of hitting even in a protected underground structure reaches 70 – 80 percent.

The smoke does not hide

Object for departureIt should be particularly noted that the effectiveness of the bombing using the SVP-24 system depends little on the weather conditions and the visibility range in the target area, since it is determined by the GLONASS system and the operation of the aircraft’s on-board systems. That is, if the coordinates of the target are reliable, it is no longer possible to defend oneself from a blow by setting smoke screens or other means of masking. However, this system has its drawbacks. The most important of them lies in its dignity - the requirement to determine the coordinates of the target with high accuracy and properly classify it. This entails a sharp increase in reaction time — from the moment a target is detected to strike it, it can take from an hour or two (depending on the distance of the target from the airfield) to a day or more. That limits the use of this weapon only on stationary objects. It is probably for this reason that, with rare exceptions, our aircraft in Syria are working to destroy the infrastructure of the “Islamic State”. However, American aircraft in Syria and Iraq also act for the most part against similar targets.

Half-hole puncher


In Syria, Russian aviation uses mainly standard high-explosive free-fall bombs 250 and 500 kilograms, as well as BETAB-500 special concrete bombs, including active-reactive bombs with enhanced obstacle clearance capabilities - BETAB-500SP. High-explosive bombs contain a large amount of explosives - from 150 to 350 kilograms, which ensures a reliable defeat of the target. However, high-explosive high-explosive bombs have a significant radius of destruction, so they are used in Syria against relatively large in size constructively strong objects located remotely from urban areas. Concrete bombs that can pierce up to three or four meters of concrete floors (depending on the quality of concrete) are used to destroy specially protected underground structures. These are mainly command posts of the strategic and operational management level, as well as large warehouses of weapons.

Big-eyed rockets

In addition to free-fall bombs, high-precision weapons are occasionally used in Syria. According to reliable sources in the Ministry of Defense, during the fighting, air-to-surface missiles X-29 and X-25 were repeatedly used, both with laser and television guidance systems. The main carriers of such weapons in Syria are Su-34 and Su-25. The X-29 family of missiles with a launch weight of 660 – 680 kilograms has a warhead weighing 320 kilograms. Their firing range is 10 – 15 kilometers, depending on the transparency of the atmosphere. Capturing a target with a homing head is carried out from under the wing of an aircraft, so after launching, the carrier can freely maneuver (if there is an external source of target illumination when using missiles with a laser seeker), implementing the principle of “fired-forgotten”. The highest accuracy of firing rockets from a television seeker is achieved by visually contrasting targets. In order to use laser homing systems, the target needs to be illuminated with a laser, which can be carried out from the carrier itself (in this case, it will be constrained to a certain extent in the maneuver and must be in the impact area until the target is hit) or an external source, such as a drone. Provides a direct hit on a typical small-sized target (two to three meters) with a probability of up to 80 or more percent. A powerful high-explosive armor-piercing warhead with a missile speed in the vicinity of the 350 – 400 target meter per second almost guaranteed to ensure its destruction, even if it is protected by one and a half meters of concrete floors. At the same time, the zone of destruction of buildings adjacent to the target does not exceed 10 – 15 meters. In Syria, such missiles are used to destroy specially protected objects located in areas of dense urban development to exclude casualties among the local population.

X-25 compact missiles, which also find use in Syria, have a starting mass of about 300 kilograms and a warhead from 86 to 136 kilograms. The latest modifications of this rocket can be equipped with a tandem warhead, penetrating concrete floors up to a meter thick, ensuring complete destruction of the object. Accuracy of hit - the same two or three meters deviations as the X-29. Target capture is also carried out from under the carrier's wing; therefore, the practical launch range is mainly limited by the range of the GOS, which, in a clean atmosphere, reaches 7 – 12 kilometers. High accuracy of shooting and a relatively small warhead allow X-25 to be used in dense urban areas to destroy objects located in the immediate vicinity of residential buildings without causing serious damage to them.

If all were CABs


In addition to the listed samples, the Russian VKS in Syria use adjustable bombs on a limited scale. It is known about several facts of use of KAB-500L and KAB-500Кр. The first of them has a laser guidance system, the second - a television one. Both have powerful combat units weighing about 400 kilograms containing slightly less than 280 kilograms of explosives. Accuracy of hitting the target is four - nine meters - at the level of the best world samples. The discharge can be carried out from a height of 1500 meters and to the practical ceiling of front and ground attack aircraft. The distance to the object and the height of the dropping of bombs are limited by the allowable flight speed of the carrier and the range of target acquisition of the GOS (to 9 km). The probability of damage even well-protected objects with one such ammunition is 80 – 85 percent and more. A powerful warhead further increases the likelihood of destroying the target, however, and imposes restrictions on the use of such weapons in residential areas with dense buildings. Therefore, in Syria, half-toned CABs are used sporadically to hit very strong objects located at a distance from residential buildings. In particular, according to sources trustworthy, it was precisely such bombs that destroyed the fortifications of militants in the interests of ensuring the offensive of the Syrian army.

For strikes against targets located in close proximity to civilian objects, our aviation uses the latest development of the Russian military-industrial complex - KAB-250. In Syria, bombs of this type are used with a control system that provides guidance to a stationary target according to GLONASS data, like the American JDAM. However, our development has features. Firstly, it allows discharge at supersonic speeds, which allows it to be separated from the carrier at a distance of several tens of kilometers from the target and to ensure high speed of the bomb in the area of ​​the impact object. Secondly, the perfect aerodynamic forms allowed to achieve higher accuracy of hitting the target, which is estimated at two to three meters. In combination with a relatively small warhead, this allows the use of KAB-250 on targets located directly at objects, the destruction of which is unacceptable for one reason or another. For such surgical attacks, this munition is used today in Syria.

High-precision munitions with television and laser-guided systems can hit mobile and stationary targets without conducting advanced detailed reconnaissance. This makes it possible to efficiently use the KABs in operatively identified fortifications and defense units of the militants.

It should be particularly noted that the weapons used by the Russian front and assault aircraft allow our planes not to enter the zone of destruction of the militants' MANPADS. And this still makes it possible to avoid the loss of our air force in Syria.
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  1. Indifferent
    Indifferent 31 October 2015 06: 48
    54
    I still think that the militants have both MANPADS and MZA and they use both of them. But apparently the tactics of our pilots and especially helicopter pilots allow us to avoid accurate attacks on ourselves when performing a combat mission. I judge by those films that I can watch. When attacking objects, planes fly at a minimum height with large angular displacements. Under these conditions, getting into an aircraft is difficult. Even the fire of numerous automatic guns does not lead (thank God) to the results. Apparently the Afghan and Chechen company taught a lot found pilots. And MANPADS can not immediately be brought into a state of combat. After all, there you need to fasten the nitrogen tank on time and then five minutes remain for a shot. Did not have time - the cylinder was gone. A spare one, for two installations. So don’t get enough. With competent tactics, it is apparently possible to escape from the blows. I’m afraid to jinx it, knock on wooden and round off. I only wish that the number of take-offs equals the number of accident-free landings !!!
    1. Blondy
      Blondy 31 October 2015 08: 19
      12
      Quote: indifferent
      I still think that the militants have both MANPADS and MZA and they use both of them

      MANPADS, of course, are a good thing, but up to 4 km - and then poured higher.
      1. Yars
        Yars 31 October 2015 16: 39
        +5
        I think here most likely there are new models of protection for aircraft and helicopters both from missiles and from the path!
        1. smart ass
          smart ass 1 November 2015 14: 30
          0
          The guy has steel eggs
      2. domokl
        domokl 1 November 2015 06: 29
        +5
        Once upon a time, in the Stone Age, the MiG-25 BM, in my opinion, was practicing bombing. I can be mistaken, you yourself understand the memory, but .. At the speed of the 2,3 swing from a height of the 20000 meters, they got perfectly where you needed to. And the discharge was carried out from a distance, in my opinion, in 42 km.
        I think today the aiming systems will be better. And the bombs picked the ground when they hit 30-40 meters because of the speed. soldier
    2. renics
      renics 31 October 2015 23: 43
      0
      According to the developer of St. Petersburg Electroavtomatika. The modernized Su-25SM aircraft uses the PrNK-25SM (56SM) "Bars" sighting and navigation system, which includes the BCU-25 information processing system based on the TsVM-90 onboard computer. Armament control system SUO-39 with two digital computers, display system SOI-U-25 with wide-angle HUD (instead of the ASP-17BTs-8 sight) and color liquid crystal multifunctional indicator, which displays flight and aiming information (in particular, digital a map of the area with a designated front line and reach zones of reconnaissance enemy air defense systems), a satellite navigation receiver (GLONASS / GPS) A-737, as well as a video registration system, objective control (SVR-25, SOK-UBD, UBR-P). Due to the introduction of the program-controlled target tracking mode, the Klen-PS illumination and ranging station ensures the use of air-to-surface missiles with laser guidance X-25ML and X-29L from horizontal flight. SVP-24 is outdated.
      1. ancient
        ancient 1 November 2015 16: 57
        0
        Quote: renics
        .СВП-24 is out of date.


        Dear .. you just wrote, forgive me for being rude .. №2 such CRASH ".. that in any" gate "does not climb! soldier
        Listen to Professor Preobrazhensky - .. COSTS! wink

        Yes .. put the A-737 ... yes there was a mode of navigation bombing from horizontal flight and WH? And you are trying to "this" oppose the SVP-24-25 with the SOLT-25 which is now being tested at the UBM ??? wassat

        Yeah .. "bold" .. "statement" fool
  2. PlotnikoffDD
    PlotnikoffDD 31 October 2015 07: 10
    35
    And yesterday it’s landmine on us, but on you?
    And on us - FB-500 - a couple of times!
    And today, a Russian ace flew to visit us,
    Threw a rocket with wings - the upper class!
  3. Lyton
    Lyton 31 October 2015 07: 11
    +7
    Very informative.
    Mattresses do not particularly bother with the deaths of civilians, they are used to it, carpet bombing, as in the Second World War, flew in to bomb, they watch if anyone has survived a new approach.
    1. Zoldat_A
      Zoldat_A 31 October 2015 07: 34
      +8
      Quote: Lyton
      Mattresses do not particularly bother with the deaths of civilians, they are used to carpet bombing, as in WWII, flew in bombed, watching if anyone survived a call on a new one.

      Yes, they have enough experience.
      In 2000, the American president provided Vietnam with a full report on the bombing of Indochina, in particular, about three million tons of bombs were dropped on Cambodia for the then population, which is about half a ton per inhabitant
      And, that ss ..., characteristically,
      Bomb in the stone age (English to bomb them into the stone age) - a phrase that appeared during the Vietnam War in the memoirs of a retired American general Curtis Limey, who for a long time commanded US strategic aviation and developed a bombing strategy for Japan during World War II.
    2. ancient
      ancient 31 October 2015 10: 53
      +8
      Quote: Lyton
      Very informative.


      This is bad that you think so! Immediately I remember Kin-dza-dza - ".. come on again .. people like it"!
      The article is written illiterately, everything is turned upside down soldier
      At first I wanted to "walk" in detail on the afftor .... "roller", but then changed my mind .. because there are too many "lapses"! soldier

      Well, for example ... a quote (at the very beginning) - "This is due to the fact that with the traditional use of free-fall bombs, dispersion is very significant - the deviation of ammunition can vary from 150 to 400 meters, depending on the drop height and the way the aircraft target." belay

      author .. "traditional" is sexual orientation only lol
      The probability of a / b deviation can be ..... many kilometers (for example, a bomb stabilizer break) wassat
      There are standards for AO a / b from the target, depending on the altitude, SPEED and .. METHOD OF AIMING .... but certainly not ... "the method of approach of the aircraft to the target."
      One VO for high altitudes (i.e., above 6 thousand meters with an RLP = 15H (height in kilometers) + 0,15V, for small 10N + 0,10V.
      This rating is EXCELLENT if the "section" is from 0 to the value of the 1st VO soldier
      With "optics" almost 50% LESS !!!
      1. ancient
        ancient 31 October 2015 10: 55
        +5
        Quote: ancient
        With "optics" almost 50% LESS !!!


        Continuation of the comment (or even here ... "restrictions" on .. "volume" recourse

        The zero value of the VO is achieved primarily by the capabilities of the PrNK .. or, more simply, by the VCS, its preparation and ADJUSTMENT (!!!!), as well as by deducting the value of the minimum errors of the "support systems" (DISS, MIS, RV, SVS or TsSV (well or other systems of this "class") + error-free operation of the CALCULATORS, taking into account all the "nuances" of the ammunition, namely specific ballistic characteristics (blah on the Su-34, you can "flash" each ammunition good )

        Well, etc ..... "medium caliber 250kg"? belay .. "target coordinates and their classification"? wassat depends on ... time .. "response"? belay
        What .. "coordinates" are recalculated differently and "stitched" into the "calculator"?

        In short .. the mood for the day ... spoiled! soldier AFFORU MINUS negative
        1. Svateev
          Svateev 31 October 2015 20: 14
          -4
          Quote: ancient
          Well, etc ..... "medium caliber 250kg"? .. "target coordinates and their classification"? depends on ... time .. "response"? What .. "coordinates" are recalculated differently and "stitched" into the "calculator"? In short ... the mood for the day ... ruined! AFFtoru MINUS

          You do not understand the article or are you specially misrepresenting?
          Here is what is written in the article: "However, this system also has disadvantages. The most important of them lies in its advantage - the requirement to determine the coordinates of the target with high accuracy and classify it correctly. This entails a sharp increase in the reaction time - from the moment the target is detected to hitting it it can take from an hour or two (depending on the distance of the target from the home airfield) to a day or more. "
          That is, the author does not put the response time in dependence on the caliber of the ammunition. The author does not indicate any "differently stitched into the computer". And he says the obvious: since the SVP-24 works automatically according to the coordinates of the target and little depends on the pilot, then in order to eliminate errors, the coordinates of the target are rechecked, which increases the response time.
          Normal article, you are wrong.
          1. ancient
            ancient 1 November 2015 09: 37
            +1
            Quote: Svateev
            You do not understand the article or are you specially misrepresenting?


            Sorry, but you didn’t understand this or you just didn’t come across this business! wassat

            In the article and in your cited paragraph written complete ... crap.
            What is the difference in what way the coordinates of the target were transmitted to the CP .... (unless of course on purpose, and even on .. after) wink
            Depending on what .. "what are these coordinates" (ie in what system) they must be "shifted" to "RECTANGULAR" and translated into "encoding", and then .. "flash".
            Another WAY .. does not exist.
            If the navigator-programmer (of any link) knows how to do this (and he must know this), then he does everything himself, except for the "input" of course or gives it to the "group", and they do everything themselves.
            And with SVP-24 .. in general, they use the method of "automated target designation" ... so there is time .. MINUTES ... but not like not .. ". DAY and more." wassat

            Quote: Svateev
            And it says the obvious: since the SVP-24 works automatically according to the coordinates of the target and little depends on the pilot,


            Did you fly the Su-24M-SVP-24? And even side aiming was not carried out on the KAI-24? ... Everything is in the "machine" wassat .... well ... "master" lol ....."taking off my hat" wassat

            Quote: Svateev
            then, to eliminate errors, the coordinates of the target are checked, which increases the response time.


            This is a STANDARD procedure for all TYPES of aircraft equipped with PNS, PrNK and NK.
            soldier
            Everything "depends" only on the level of training of "nkashnikov" and "programmers"

            So "call" .. but my opinion is IMHO! soldier
            1. Svateev
              Svateev 1 November 2015 12: 10
              -1
              Quote: ancient
              What is the difference in what way the coordinates of the target were transmitted to the CP ... (unless of course on purpose, and even after ..) ... to eliminate errors, the coordinates of the target are checked, which increases the response time. This is a STANDARD procedure for all TYPES of aircraft equipped with PNS, PrNK and NK.

              And this standard procedure increases the response time compared to the application, when the pilot himself takes aim.
              It seems that you really dealt with the issue of the practical application of Su-24 at a certain - technical - level of competence. And you reason from this level, not wanting to rise to a higher level.
              Imagine yourself at the level of an air regiment commander who decides to strike. You have received information from the Syrian intelligence that there is an IS terrorist camp in forest "N". And the forest "N" has the dimensions of Hkm per Ukm. What will you work with? There is an option to send a crew with the Search and Destroy mission. Preparation time is minimal. But to find the target, the crew will have to descend under possible MANPADS fire. And the second option is to send a drone for additional reconnaissance, which will "walk over the heads" of terrorists with impunity and will accurately determine the coordinates of the target. But this option is longer for the duration of the drone's flight to the forest "N", and it can be hours. This is the PRINCIPAL difference between the options when the pilot himself takes aim and when the automation works for him according to the predetermined target coordinates. When the pilot takes aim himself, the support for the aviation comes much faster.
              This is what the author of the article says. And you talk from the level of weapons technician.
              1. ancient
                ancient 1 November 2015 14: 55
                0
                Quote: Svateev
                And this standard procedure increases the response time compared to the application, when the pilot himself takes aim


                And who argues with this? belay But .. "free hunting" is not practiced in Syria ... otherwise we will definitely not get rid of the "destruction of civilians and field hospitals" wassat

                Well, now further ... it means from "Have you ever stood close to the plane ?!" I have already "grown in your eyes" to the level of .. "armament equipment."? wassat
                Uryayaya .. "progress on .. face" lol or on the face sad

                Okay ... we will try to "grow" further .. good mood allows!

                And so ... I will not represent myself in the place of the regiment commander, but simply ... "I will remember the old days" wink
                THE DECISION OF THE COMMAND REGULATION is brought to the flight and IT trains in the form of a power supply unit. Which descends .. "from above", and in this order everything is already laid out on the shelves .. what is the target (its characteristics), location (deployment), the required outfit is distributed forces and means, a route was laid, an ISHR was calculated, the methods of APPROACH and AIMING (or modes ... so it would be more accurate), the possibility of countering air defense weapons, the boundaries of the enemy's RTS detection zones, the lines of interception by fighter aircraft and other, other ... soldier
                A PRE-PREPARATION preparation is carried out before any departure ... it includes the entire list of activities .. with the exception of BC suspension and refueling.
                Therefore, to "rock" or pour a couple of tons of kerosene .. this time is 10 minutes. Well, to hang up 4-6 bombs is .. for the gunmen .. "seeds". wink
                Reconnaissance is carried out in predetermined areas (be it ground, air or ... other types) have already been calculated and entered into the "accumulators" all data on flight routes and alternate airfields ... it remains to "stick" the numbers of targets and .. forward ... " for orders " soldier
                1. ancient
                  ancient 1 November 2015 14: 57
                  0
                  Quote: ancient
                  numbers of goals and .. forward ... "for the orders"


                  Continuation ... otherwise "everything did not fit" wink Well .. I changed the "star-striped mattress" to the EU flag .. and then I see you have a "stupor" happened lol

                  For "serious" targets, a "reconnaissance officer" can also work, who performs tasks on the report of a possible or impossible strike, as well as all "features".
                  soldier
                  Therefore, your camp..this is a typical area target, but due to the fact that it is located in the forest, it is necessary to use not RBK-500-SHOAB-0,5 but OFAB-250-270 or FAB-500M54 (or M-62) .
                  Dropping in a salvo of 2 with a minimum interval or series (the interval is determined by the length of the target) with a maximum "order".
                  The required outfit of forces is determined from the size of the entire target and the ability of the carrier (i.e. how many bombs an aircraft can bring to this range), i.e. how many cars should be in the UG.
                  Reset either by "providing" or by "command" (but with individual aiming).

                  Therefore, in your comment, you "argue" with everything off topic soldier

                  Good "line" you have ... means FIND and DESTROY? Why then "Syrian intelligence" with their coordinates? lol
                  You already .. be determined ... or the goal already exists or .... there is an "opinion" (information) that maybe somewhere out there, in that area ... presumably located and ..... further in your text ...
                  Then there are only two options - either to wait for specifics from reconnaissance or to fly and iron the entire "SQUARE" .. there is no third soldier
                  1. Svateev
                    Svateev 1 November 2015 16: 03
                    -1
                    Quote: ancient
                    "star-striped mattress" changed to the EU flag .. and then I see you have a "stupor" happened

                    And to change the "mattress" to something decent - to the Russian tricolor or to the flag of the USSR - the hand does not rise, right?
                    Quote: ancient
                    For "serious" goals, the "additional intelligence officer" can also work,

                    And what, there are frivolous goals for which you can work with SVP-24 without knowing the exact coordinates ?!
                    Quote: ancient
                    Good "line" you have ... means FIND and DESTROY? Why then "Syrian intelligence" with their coordinates?
                    You already .. be determined ... or the goal already exists or .... there is an "opinion" (information) that maybe somewhere out there, in that area ... presumably located and ..... further in your text ...

                    If the goals depended on how I personally determined, then our aviation would always and in advance know the coordinates of all targets. But in practice, intelligence information, especially on mobile targets, is exactly this: "somewhere in this area" and further in my text.
                    Quote: ancient
                    Then there are only two options - either to wait for specifics from reconnaissance or to fly and iron the entire "SQUARE" .. there is no third

                    The third is given, it is given - to research yourself. And this takes time, and this is what the author of the article says.
                    I think everything was discussed? Let's round off! hi
                    1. ancient
                      ancient 1 November 2015 17: 08
                      0
                      Quote: Svateev
                      And to change the "mattress" to something decent - to the Russian tricolor or to the flag of the USSR - the hand does not rise, right?


                      Why interfere with the "program"? Moreover, it works like .. hours! From "childhood" they taught me ... if the "complex" calculates well and the discrepancies in the tolerance ... "do not climb with your hands" ... "can come out sideways" wink

                      Quote: Svateev
                      And what, there are frivolous goals for which you can work with SVP-24 without knowing the exact coordinates ?!


                      The criterion "serious targets" is understood as a KUG or AUGi AUS, as well as URO ships or OTR, SAM, SRZO batteries, etc.
                      After all, ships, if you are in the know .. as a rule, in the sea they do not "stand on banks" but go somewhere and until the scout reaches the house, then ..... that is why additional reconnaissance of the target is carried out.

                      Quote: Svateev
                      exactly like this: "somewhere in this area" and further in my text.


                      This is not intelligence, but .. like a classic .. "a letter to the village grandfather .. Konstantin Makarych" lol
                      And her..this "old" can be taken into account and .... "finalized" if it is worth it .. soldier

                      Quote: Svateev
                      The third is given, it is given - to research yourself.


                      I would very much like to see .. how you "manage to accomplish" wink Visually, from a height of 5 meters to find a base of terrorists .. oh well .. they all sunbathe on the lawn and barbecue grill .. get ready for a selfie for a scout.
                      Maybe Il-20M ... but then again it will be a district, which means ... work on the AREA (I will not use the term carpet bombing, otherwise you will throw yourself like a bull on a red rag) soldier
                2. Svateev
                  Svateev 1 November 2015 15: 41
                  -1
                  Quote: ancient
                  Quote: Svateev
                  "And this standard procedure increases the response time compared to the use case where the pilot himself is aiming."

                  And who argues with this?

                  Yes, you argue! Here it is now: at first they recognized that the response time is increasing, but then again twenty-five again - you start the countdown of the reaction time from the moment when the subordinates are given a combat order. But where did you divide the time for preparing this order, for example, the time for additional reconnaissance of the exact coordinates of the target ?! Why is this time you do not enter during the aviation response ?!
                  Quote: ancient
                  Reconnaissance is carried out in predetermined areas (be it ground, air or ... other types) have already been calculated and entered into the "accumulators" all data on flight routes and alternate airfields ... it remains to "stick" the numbers of targets and .. forward ... " for orders "

                  You argue at the level of a bad corporal: "give me the numbers of goals." And where do the numbers - the coordinates of the targets - come from and how much time is spent on reconnaissance of these "numbers" does not concern you! And second, who can, before the commander's decision, know the purpose and flight routes and enter these data into the storage devices ?!
                  All your interests do not extend beyond preflight training. Admit, didn’t the aircraft technician or armament technician go higher? No.
                  1. ancient
                    ancient 1 November 2015 16: 14
                    0
                    Quote: Svateev
                    Yes, you argue!


                    I argue with the fact that the time from the moment the pilot detects the target until the moment of its destruction and the "response time" for the newly set task are the same? belay

                    You, in my opinion, are either SICK or ... I don’t even know what to suppose wassat

                    It is you and your..afftor_ "expert" claim that "This entails a sharp increase reaction time - from the moment the target is detected until it is hit, it can take from an hour or two (depending on the distance of the target from the airfield) up to a day or more" wassat
                    And again, "twenty-five" how much time to spend. If there are no "digital"? No "tsifirek" means NO GOAL! From what do you "count" the line of reaction or reaction? wassat

                    Quote: Svateev
                    And secondly, who can, before the commander decides, know the purpose and flight routes and enter this data into the drives ?!


                    And such a thing as the AREA OF COMBAT actions is not known? Or what .... do you think ours flew in "I don't know where" and "what to destroy" did not know the same .. they all waited for them to arrive for "pigeon mail" or a "messenger" from the locals on .. the shakers will arrive ... and get wassat

                    You do not have at least basic military training at school, so that at least some of the basics of tactics someone ... taught? Or just chupa-chups and .. "tyrlo" on your mind? wassat
                    1. Svateev
                      Svateev 1 November 2015 17: 01
                      -1
                      Quote: ancient
                      From what do you "count" the line of reaction or reaction?

                      Aviation response time is always counted from the moment of request for air support by ground forces. In this request, the infantry indicates the coordinates of the target with the accuracy with which it can determine them. Often this accuracy is low and aerial reconnaissance is required for airstrike. An additional reconnaissance pilot can perform a strike l / a - this is the fastest way to react, but exposes the strike l / a to the risk of being shot down at low altitude. Now it has become possible to further investigate the drone.
                      And to argue: "No" tsifirek "means NO PURPOSE! ... you think ours flew in" unknown to where "and" what to destroy "did not know the same" (it is understood that someone should have all the coordinates of targets for aviation, and themselves aviators should not get them) - this is the path to carpet bombing. What are you intensely here and promoting.
                      1. ancient
                        ancient 1 November 2015 17: 23
                        0
                        Quote: Svateev
                        Aviation response time is always counted from the moment of request for air support by ground forces. In this request, the infantry indicates the coordinates of the target with the accuracy with which it can determine them. Often this accuracy is low and aerial reconnaissance is required for airstrike.


                        In such cases, no additional reconnaissance is carried out, but signals of INDICATIONS of one's own and others are coordinated!
                        And if you try to carry out additional exploration, then ... there will be no one ... "to support" recourse

                        Everything else .. "juggle" .. the reasons have already indicated to you soldier
                      2. Svateev
                        Svateev 1 November 2015 17: 45
                        -1
                        Quote: ancient
                        In such cases, no additional reconnaissance is carried out, but signals of INDICATIONS of one's own and others are coordinated!

                        This is when aviation operates along the front line when its ground troops come into contact with the enemy. And if the infantry asks to destroy the targets in the depths of the enemy’s defense - what other designation signals?
                      3. ancient
                        ancient 1 November 2015 18: 02
                        0
                        Quote: Svateev
                        And if the infantry asks to destroy the targets in the depths of the enemy’s defense - what other designation signals?


                        And how did your "infantry" see targets in .. "the depth of the enemy's defense"? And at what depth? .. "Isn't it strategic?" wink
                        Well, if, rather than hoping, "infa" about goals suddenly appeared .. well, let's say according to the reports of local residents or camels "wandering" in the desert .. then each "place" has its own geographical coordinates ... so they take the starting point " and .. even as I wrote to you, translation into rectangular, encoding, input into the computer and .. "forward for ..orders" wink
                      4. Svateev
                        Svateev 1 November 2015 20: 15
                        0
                        Quote: ancient
                        And how did your "infantry" see targets in .. "the depth of the enemy's defense"? And at what depth? .. "

                        1) The observer could see through binoculars, to a depth of ... line of sight, depending on the local topography. 2) The reconnaissance and sabotage group reported, by walkie-talkie, to a depth of ... several tens of kilometers. 3) GRU agents reported, to a depth down to strategic.
                        Maybe you’ll stop applying childish excuses ?! Shame yourself!
                        Quote: ancient
                        each "place" has its own geographic coordinates ... so they take the starting point "and .. further, as I wrote to you, translation into rectangular, encoding, input into the computer

                        This is not an answer to my example: "There is a terrorist base in the forest" N ", which has the dimensions of Hkm to Ukm." What coordinates will you enter into the calculator? The corners of the forest ?! To use the SVP-24, you need the coordinates of the target, not the entire forest.
                      5. ancient
                        ancient 1 November 2015 21: 04
                        +1
                        Quote: Svateev
                        1) The observer saw through binoculars, to a depth of ... line of sight, depending on the local topography.


                        And how much is there .. in "grams" of this "line of sight in .. binoculars" wassat I already wrote to you, in such cases, the SIGNALS for interaction are worked out (marking and VHF communication).

                        2 and 3-th point .. this information is already expressed in NUMBERS!

                        What are you fool

                        Quote: Svateev
                        To use SVP-24, you need the coordinates of the target, not the entire forest.


                        Either you are below "aiming at an area target", now you need point coordinates ... but you do not know that the length of the series is calculated along the "side" and "prod"? lol and there is the beginning of the series, but there is the end of the series and the necessary COVERAGE AREA calculated?

                        Okay ... I’m finishing it .. you now look like a rat, which is cornered and rushing around, not realizing that your end has come a long time ago !!! soldier
                      6. Svateev
                        Svateev 1 November 2015 23: 37
                        -1
                        Quote: ancient
                        And how much is there .. in "grams" of this "line of sight in .. binoculars"

                        Typically, three to four kilometers in depth of enemy defense. If you find the target in the depths of the enemy’s defense at 3-4 km, will you coordinate the warning signals? And then you can miss on 3-4 km and get on your own ?! lol
                        Quote: ancient
                        2 and 3-th point .. this information is already expressed in NUMBERS!
                        What are you

                        Do you even know yourself what you wanted to say? Then explain!
                        Quote: ancient
                        the length of the series is calculated on the "side" and "prod" you do not know? and there is the beginning of the series, but there is the end of the series and the required AREA OF COVERAGE is calculated?

                        Why are you stubbornly lumping together "the coverage area of ​​one series" and the American "carpet bombing"! Carpet bombing is carried out so that the beginning of each next series (of the next aircraft) falls on the ground at the end of the series of the previous aircraft, and the beginning of the series of the next wave or next echelon - at the end of the series of the previous wave or of the previous echelon. So that there are no unaffected places on the territory of the millionth city! To cover the entire territory of the city with a carpet of tears, without gaps!
                        Again, you will be muttering that the area of ​​one series and carpet bombing are one and the same ?!
                      7. Svateev
                        Svateev 1 November 2015 23: 49
                        -1
                        "Ancient", and then you changed your flag again. And again to NATO! And an hour ago I tried to say that you don't want to change anymore, because you have to "get into the program". Are you sitting under a proxy server, hiding from the "Kremlin agents"? I understand you, after your comparisons of our aviation with American criminals, you feel uneasy. bully
                      8. ancient
                        ancient 2 November 2015 12: 21
                        0
                        Quote: Svateev
                        "Ancient", and then you changed your flag again. And again to NATO! And an hour ago I tried to say that you don't want to change anymore, because you have to "get into the program". Are you sitting under a proxy server, hiding from the "Kremlin agents"?


                        Everything is clear ... when in full ...... all kinds of .. "notions" begin - here is my quote- "Why interfere with the" program "? Especially since it works like .. hours! .. if the "complex" calculates well and the residuals in the tolerance ... "do not go with your hands" ... "can come out sideways".

                        And here is your .. "rotten attempt" interpretation- And an hour ago I tried to tell you that you don't want to change anymore, because you have to "get into the program"

                        Well .... rotten ... again in a puddle ... not tired? wassat Or is it ... "an image ... in life" lol
                      9. Svateev
                        Svateev 2 November 2015 14: 23
                        -1
                        Quote: ancient
                        all kinds of .. "notions" begin - here is my quote-

                        "Ancient"! My expression "climb into the program" is equivalent to your "interfere with the program", because the words "climb" and "interfere" in this context are synonyms. Moreover, further you yourself used the expression "do not go with your hands." So I didn’t come up with anything for you.
                        "Ancient", you are simply inadequate, like a stupid woman!
                        A FLAG TO YOU CHANGE AGAIN, THIRD TIME ALREADY! AND AGAIN ON NATO! WHY ANCIENT ???
        2. Ykrofashist
          Ykrofashist 3 November 2015 02: 41
          0
          Record of an alleged request for air support by infantry (judging by your "truthful and logical" comment):
          Zorya, Zorya (let's say such a callsign at the headquarters) I am Scorpio (infantry). They evoke air support (from the East, from a distance of 100-120 kilometers I am bombarded with sm4 and Tomahawk missiles). I ask you to suppress the enemy firing points.
        3. Ykrofashist
          Ykrofashist 4 November 2015 03: 36
          0
          I'm sorry repeat the second koment did not go because of tricks with the Internet. I repeat (approximately):
          Successful execution of the plan will not succeed due to the sphericity of the Earth / the opacity of the atmosphere. Conclusion: you don’t need a day to prepare (either to fly the UAV for additional reconnaissance for about 20 minutes maximum (check their speed) or the preliminary coordinates are accurate enough for the strike (local residents will report that the warehouse is EXACTLY at the intersection of Ben Laden Avenue and Dudaev Street (we take the Google Map and voila), the uncles from the GRU - GLONASS) If you still believe the Ancient (the planes are ready, just refueled, grabbed and bombed) (I don’t know), then generally raspberries.
  • The stranger
    The stranger 31 October 2015 21: 33
    0
    And what is wrong? Revealing the type and coordinates of the target takes time, especially if the enemy is not. And this time is included during the response from the request of the consumer to the actual strike. In addition to the time of approach, and all the rest.
    1. The stranger
      The stranger 31 October 2015 22: 40
      +2
      I am wildly sorry, a question arose for the moderators.

      Are Russian proverbs containing the word "dypak" prohibited on this resource? Is this word in Russian abusive, abusive, infringing on the religious or political feelings of citizens?
      Should I cut it out of paper dictionaries?
      Is it possible to find out its modern equivalent, in the sense of a dictionary such as Dahl?
  • Svateev
    Svateev 31 October 2015 20: 21
    +2
    Quote: ancient
    There are standards for AO a / b from the target, depending on the altitude, SPEED and .. METHOD OF AIMING .... but certainly not ... "the method of approach of the aircraft to the target."

    Not true. Methods of approaching the target - horizontal flight, dive or cabrio. The difference in the probable deviation is by orders of magnitude.
    Have you ever stood close to an airplane ?! laughing
    1. ancient
      ancient 1 November 2015 10: 02
      +2
      Quote: Svateev
      Not true. Methods of approaching the target - horizontal flight, dive or cabrio.


      Yes nude ??? wassat This is what you are writing about is METHODS OF AIMING and performing Combat use .. though for some reason you "missed" such a method as a "logarithmic curve" wink and at the signal of the provider "?
      What .. "bukffs" not familiar .. saw lol
      Among other things, APPROACHES on the target also include visits according to time parameters, i.e. in the morning, during the day, at dusk and at night! wink
      Well, of course, complex types of maneuvers - "loop, half-loop, spiral, coup and half-coup" soldier
      And also .. "taken into account" some more "parameters" .. like from "hangover on Monday" or "on a glass-bath day like Friday" wassat

      Quote: Svateev
      The difference in the probable deviation is by orders of magnitude.


      Formulas for calculating VO are given below ..... "orders there and .. does not smell" soldier

      And you have a counter question .. have you ever seen a plane .. at least in the picture or on TV? wassat
      1. Svateev
        Svateev 1 November 2015 12: 23
        0
        Quote: ancient
        Quote: Svateev
        The difference in the probable deviation is by orders of magnitude.

        Formulas for calculating VO are given below ..... "orders there and .. does not smell"

        That's it! From your formulas it turns out that when cabling, when the bombs fly several tens of kilometers from the place of discharge, the probable deviation will be exactly the same as when diving the plane directly to the target. Nonsense is complete. The dropping of free-fall bombs on the cabriolet is the most inaccurate method, which has orders of magnitude more likely deviation than during a dive.
        That's why I asked how far from the plane you had to stand hi
        1. ancient
          ancient 1 November 2015 15: 23
          0
          Quote: Svateev
          From your formulas it turns out that when cabling, when the bombs fly several tens of kilometers from the place of discharge, the probable deviation will be exactly the same as when diving the plane directly to the target.


          Dear ... well, quote to the studio, where did I write this? wassat
          It is clear that you feel that you have "gotten yourself in trouble", but .. "psakism" then here and weave double standards?
          Or as our people say - .. "from a sore head to a healthy one"

          Quote: Svateev
          that when cabling, when bombs fly a few tens of kilometers from the dumping place


          What is it "for your pitching" (or rather, at what height and at what speed will you "unhook"), so that the longitudinal ratio of AB would be .... "several tens of kilometers"?
          wassat

          Quote: Svateev
          The dropping of free-fall bombs on the cabriolet is the most inaccurate method, which has orders of magnitude more likely deviation than during a dive.


          Speak ... not the truth ... because. yours here this phrase is interpreted as .. "SVP-24 and its bombing from a free maneuver is ... such a G ,,," wassat

          And remember .. the most accurate way to b / m .. this is an approach to the target at low altitude, and preferably on PMV and b / m caliber from 250 kg and above type W, SH, etc.
          If I did the side-aiming correctly ... everyone will be like that .. like relatives soldier
          1. Svateev
            Svateev 1 November 2015 17: 54
            0
            Quote: ancient
            Quote: Svateev
            From your formulas it turns out that when cabling, when the bombs fly several tens of kilometers from the place of discharge, the probable deviation will be exactly the same as when diving the plane directly to the target.

            Dear ... well, quote to the studio, where did I write this?

            You have given the formulas without indicating for which methods of application they are correct. Moreover, you persistently insist that the probable deviation from the method of application is independent. And from this it turns out that you are asserting this stupidity.
            1. ancient
              ancient 1 November 2015 18: 10
              +1
              Quote: Svateev
              You have given the formulas without indicating for which methods of application they are true


              How not to bring belay ..there is everything .. for Kaira and for PPV and for RPO .. what is different is for ADNS well, and an amendment for "Removal" if according to VTP or VRO.
              Well, when pitching up, usually aiming is performed according to ECP or BPO ... so that the data is taken at the moment of the bomb's "descent" (that is, the height and speed with their coefficients) and the "offset" in km is added .. that's the whole difference recourse
              Well, if you, while maintaining a given mode, and if you also allow a "lapse" during the reset and .. the bomb will not go down "into that steppe" .. then this is YOUR problem and not as a complex. wink
              1. Svateev
                Svateev 1 November 2015 20: 29
                0
                Quote: ancient
                How not to bring

                I don’t know how, but you didn’t say these formulas are true for which method of application - from horizontal flight, from diving or from cabriolet. And still. Moreover, you deny that the probable deviation for these methods is very different.
                request
          2. Svateev
            Svateev 1 November 2015 18: 01
            -1
            Quote: ancient
            What is it "for your pitching" (or rather, at what height and at what speed will you "unhook"), so that the longitudinal ratio of AB would be .... "several tens of kilometers"?

            And these figures are news for you too ?! Well, you and the "aviator", however!
            The bombs fly away several tens of kilometers when used already at a subsonic speed when pitching at an angle of 20 degrees from an altitude of 8-10 km. The specific number of "tens of kilometers of longitudinal offset" depends on the type of bomb - its ballistic coefficient.
            1. ancient
              ancient 1 November 2015 20: 12
              0
              Quote: Svateev
              Bombs fly away for several tens of kilometers when used already at subsonic speed when cabling with an angle of 20 degrees from a height of 8-10 km.


              Your "conclusions" are .. "bullshit" or "a figment of a sick imagination"

              You will first study .. for which TSA and in what cases the mode of combat use is used.
              This is where you "took" a pitch of 20 degrees and an ascent of 8-10 km? belay It’s easier to immediately call the enemy and inform .. I’m so-and-so .. I will be in such and such a place .. look do not miss wassat

              Oh .. I'm looking at the new word "learned" or just .. "spied" .. wow ... the longitudinal relation of the bomb .. well, then you wrote ... such crap that ... well, it's clear why I'm swearing. .. 1st grade of primary school, there is 1st grade .. it's good that at least you know the alphabet.

              Well then .. "you are our connoisseur" I give a challenge .. according to your .. "introductory" - let the subsonic speed be 900 .... altitude 9 thousand (average) ... bomb FAB-250M62, fall time 42 seconds .. the lag from this height will be 2000 meters.
              I give the formula without the wind ... (for simplicity).
              And so the longitudinal relation is A = VT-g, where g- let there be a lag ...... well, how .. shine with knowledge ... according to "Pupkin's arithmetic" .. if you .. call your dad .. can help?

              "several tens of kilometers" depends on the type of bomb and its ballistic coefficient ..... but which one? wink And what is taken as a basis - ballistic quality or ballistic characteristic of a bomb
              1. ancient
                ancient 1 November 2015 21: 11
                -1
                Quote: ancient
                Well then .. "you are our connoisseur" I give a challenge .. according to your .. "introductory" - let the subsonic speed be 900 .... altitude 9 thousand (average) ... bomb FAB-250M62, fall time 42 seconds .. the lag from this height will be 2000 meters.
                I give the formula without the wind ... (for simplicity).


                So WH ... "Probable" is ours and .. "Able" wassat Arithmetic for grade 1 is not alright .... and parents can't help .. it's so easy to multiply the speed by time and subtract the lag .. that's what you will .. "longitudinal relative" (although for such heights it is already necessary to calculate NDsbr-slant drop range) wassat

                So WHERE there .. your "several tens of kilometers"?

                Again ... "in a puddle"? wassat

                Not wet yet? wink

                And then I’m already tired of dipping you .. into this thing .. even it’s not convenient somehow repeat
                1. Svateev
                  Svateev 2 November 2015 00: 52
                  -2
                  Quote: ancient
                  So WHAT ..

                  So that's it! You, like that non-commissioned officer widow, have carved yourself. Read the answer below, haste.
              2. Svateev
                Svateev 2 November 2015 00: 41
                -2
                Quote: ancient
                This is where you "took" a pitch of 20 degrees and an ascent of 8-10 km? It's easier to immediately call the enemy and report .. I am such and such .. I will be at that and in such and such a place .. look do not miss

                Well, you see, you have confirmed that such a regime exists!
                Quote: ancient
                Oh .. I'm looking at the new word "learned" or just .. "spied" .. wow ... longitudinal separation of the bomb

                I’m just repeating your terms, that is, adapting to your terminology in order to continue the conversation in essence, and not to stop on a debate about the correctness of the terminology. And I can show you your fundamental mistakes in your terms, no matter if they are correct or not. If only you did not change the meaning of your terms during the discussion.
                Quote: ancient
                ballistic coefficient ..... and what? And what is taken as a basis - ballistic quality or ballistic characteristic of a bomb

                I think that your term "ballistic quality" will be closer to the term "ballistic coefficient", which, by analogy with "aerodynamic quality", I understand as the ratio of your "longitudinal attitude" to the altitude and speed when dropping. From the "ballistic quality" your "lag" should be calculated.
                Quote: ancient
                And so the longitudinal relation A = VT-g, where g- let there be a lag ......

                According to your "Pupkin's formula" we get relative = 900 km / h * 42 sec / 3600 sec / hour-2 km = 8,5 km
                So, if you believe your input data, then according to your primitive formula (okay, okay, not a primitive, but a tabulated formula, because you took the "backlog" from the "backlog" table, and just try to say that no!) 8,5 km.
                And you think that you deceived me, because it is less than 10km? On the contrary, you have confirmed me! Because the data that you gave - THIS IS WHEN APPLYING FROM A HORIZONTAL FLIGHT!
                Do you have any data to drop on pitch up? There, the fall time will be two or three times longer, and the "lag" - proportionally less, since a significant part of the trajectory passes above the drop height, that is, above 9 km - in a rarefied atmosphere, where the deceleration of the bomb speed is not so intense.
                CONCLUSION: even a blunt, never aerodynamic FAB with a cab will fly off at about 20-30km, that is, at 2-3 a dozen kilometers. More aerodynamic types of bombs (with less lag) will fly even further.
                Thank you for proving it yourself. Notice, I didn’t pull you by the tongue! good
                1. ancient
                  ancient 2 November 2015 12: 30
                  +1
                  Quote: Svateev
                  According to your "Pupkin's formula" we get relative = 900 km / h * 42 sec / 3600 sec / hour-2 km = 8,5 km
                  So, if you believe your input data, then according to your primitive formula (okay, okay, not a primitive, but a tabulated formula, because you took the "backlog" from the "backlog" table, and just try to say that no!) 8,5 km.
                  And you think that you deceived me, because it is less than 10km? On the contrary, you have confirmed me! Because the data that you gave - THIS IS WHEN APPLYING FROM A HORIZONTAL FLIGHT!
                  Do you have any data to drop on pitch up? There, the fall time will be two or three times longer, and the "lag" - proportionally less, since a significant part of the trajectory passes above the drop height, that is, above 9 km - in a rarefied atmosphere, where the deceleration of the bomb speed is not so intense.
                  CONCLUSION: even a blunt, never aerodynamic FAB with a cab will fly off at about 20-30km, that is, at 2-3 a dozen kilometers. More aerodynamic types of bombs (with less lag) will fly even further.
                  Thank you for proving it yourself. Notice, I didn’t pull you by the tongue!


                  That's it .. WE BROUGHT .. THIS IS A CLINIC and it DOES NOT TREAT IN ANYONE .. if you have BALLISTICS .. "primitive formulas" ... then.

                  And again, a distortion, such that Psaki .. rests .. I’m telling you where you got this mode of carrying ... and right away ... ahh ... then you confirm that such a mode .. exists ?????? belay
                  Do you have something ... instead of the head ... BONE ????
                  Further ... BT are the same for ALL types of bombs ... if you stick a turbojet engine with a bomb in one place ... then it will surely .. "increase its fall time by 2-3 times" .. that's it I can't read this nonsense anymore !!!! am

                  Your "CONCLUSION" .. it is generally ... even beyond the brink of..MARASMA! wassat
                  1. Svateev
                    Svateev 2 November 2015 15: 13
                    -1
                    Quote: ancient
                    Your "CONCLUSION" .. it is generally ... even beyond the brink of..MARASMA!

                    The conclusion is drawn from the numbers and the formula that you gave, "ancient"! Any specific comments on the calculation? No? Some snot?
                    Quote: ancient
                    if you have BALLISTICS .. "primitive formulas" ..

                    "Ancient", I explained in the commentary why I called your formula primitive: because it is tabulated! Have you ever heard such an expression - tabulated ?! I should have heard if I graduated from a higher military school and did not jerk off in ballistics classes!
                    Quote: ancient
                    .there I say where did you get this mode of carrying ... and right away ... ahh ... then you confirm that such a mode .. exists?

                    Why aren’t you quoting yourself your beloved right now ?! Here is your statement: "This is where you got such a mode" took "a pitch of 20 grams and an ascent of 8-10 km? It's easier to call the enemy right away and tell .. I am so and so .. I will be in so much and in such and such a place .. look do not miss."
                    As you can see from your expression, you do not recognize this mode of use, not because it cannot be in principle, but because it is easy to be shot down in such a mode. And in this I agree with you. But now we are not talking about the advisability of combat use in certain regimes, but about the likely circular deflection of bombs in different modes of use. And at first you basically did not recognize the mode of cabling, but in the indicated expression you let it slip - they say there is such a regime, but the enemy bastard will not allow such a regime to be applied - it will bring you down.
                    Do you understand?
                    Quote: ancient
                    More ... BT are the same for ALL types of bombs ...

                    What is this "BT"? Earlier you used the terms "ballistic quality" and "ballistic performance" of aerial bombs. And now he pulled some kind of BT from the sleeve like an ace. Decipher this abbreviation, dear!
                    Quote: ancient
                    if you put the turbojet engine in one place together with the bomb ... then it will surely .. "increase its fall time by 2-3 times."

                    Oh what! You have no idea even how the angle of throw affects the flight trajectory and the time the bomb falls! So you don't understand the essence of ballistics, "ancient"! In this case, even I am powerless to help. recourse
                    And listen, why do emotions overwhelm you like the tides of a woman at the menopause? You don’t know what kind of nonsense you write! Are you really not a woman, moreover, of Balzac age ?! love
          3. Svateev
            Svateev 1 November 2015 18: 07
            0
            Quote: ancient
            bombing from a free maneuver is ... such a G ,,,

            "G" or "not G" is a matter of evaluation. And if we talk about the numbers of probable deviation, then the more the bomb is removed, the greater the probable deviation. Or will you argue with that?
            1. ancient
              ancient 1 November 2015 20: 17
              -1
              Quote: Svateev
              "G" or "not G" is a matter of evaluation.


              This is what you said, or rather ... wrote!

              The probable deviation to the straight line depends on the magnitude of the longitudinal rel ... after all, in order to get a greater rel it is necessary to increase two quantities .. the speed and height of the drop .... when they increase, the VO increases.

              And what does your phrase mean .. "and you will argue with that" ... already sit up to your ears in ..... me and more .. "flutter .. yes .. such stubbornness fool I have not met in my life .. you sure ... adequate or Wai-Fai in a medical institution spent free wink
              1. Svateev
                Svateev 2 November 2015 01: 11
                -1
                Quote: ancient
                The probable deviation to the line depends on the magnitude of the longitudinal rela ..

                Thank God I was able to prove the obvious!
                Quote: ancient
                in order to get a larger rel, you need to increase two values ​​.. the speed and height of the drop .... when they increase and increases in.

                Again twenty-five! There is also a third quantity, on which the relation depends - the angle to the horizon under which the bomb is thrown! The trajectory of the bomb flight depends on the throwing angle and, consequently, the magnitude of your "drift"! At the same speed and flight altitude, the aircraft will be the smallest with a dive, and the largest with pitching. ONCE AGAIN: AT THE SAME HEIGHT AND SPEED OF THE L / A! This is what I and the other commentators have been telling you for two hours already, but you still won't get it! yes
                1. ancient
                  ancient 2 November 2015 12: 39
                  0
                  Quote: Svateev
                  There is still a third quantity, on which rel - depends on the angle to the horizon, under which the bomb is thrown!


                  1. The bomb is dropped at the ANGLE OF AIM (the angle between the "construction" axis and the direction of the optical axis of sight to the target).
                  2. The bomb trajectory is one BALLISTIC and changes only from the MODE of combat use.
                  3. According to the "throwing angle" you can only throw "bulls" into the urn.

                  Quote: Svateev
                  ONCE AGAIN: AT THE SAME ALTITUDE AND FLIGHT SPEED L / A! That's what I, and other commentators, have been telling you for two hours already, but it still won’t reach you!


                  What does this have to do with it ???? And what are you talking about? .. And what other "other commentators", what .. it turns out that someone else "wrote" himself into your company wassat
                  1. Svateev
                    Svateev 2 November 2015 15: 52
                    -1
                    Quote: ancient
                    3. According to the "throwing angle" you can only throw "bulls" into the urn.

                    It turns out you've heard about the basics of ballistics! Indeed, the "bull" flies according to the same laws. But why, then, do you not admit that the bomb obeys all the same laws and therefore its trajectory and the time of its fall depend on the throwing angle?
                    I still have two assumptions about the reasons for your stupid comments: 1) or your knowledge is fragmentary - you know the aiming angle, because it is used in practical bombing, but you don’t know about the throwing angle because you did not study theory well at the time, but in practice the throwing angle is not used because it is already taken into account by the designers of the aiming systems when calculating the aiming angle 2) or you know about the throwing angle, but you’re just dishonorable, you’re used to always leaving the last word to you and now you write nonsense just to make your comment It seemed to be the last.
                    Check which of my assumptions is true ?!
                    Quote: ancient
                    And what other "other commentators"

                    For example, this one:
                    Quote: Fil743
                    RU 31 October 2015 19: 15
                    quote = ancient
                    There are standards for AO a / b from the target, depending on the altitude, SPEED and .. METHOD OF AIMING .... but certainly not ... "the method of approach of the aircraft to the target."
                    / quote
                    That is, for you there is no difference between bombing from the "horizon" and from a dive? From a steep dive, you can put a bomb in a circle with a diameter of 10 m, without using any PRNK at all, along the rivets on the fuselage.

                    And your friends are softly trying to get you out of this discussion - they are distracted by writing articles about the Afghan experience, an album of aviation songs was inserted into this discussion, etc. But your pride does not allow you to admit that at the very beginning you made a mistake. All that was needed for you was to write that, of course, the probable deviation depends on the method of application, it is simply impossible to insert all the ballistics into one comment! And the question would be settled. But for some reason you were lucky to prove obvious nonsense! And I can’t leave the crap without refutation.So what's going on with you, "ancient" ?!
      2. Svateev
        Svateev 1 November 2015 17: 48
        -1
        Quote: ancient
        Quote: Svateev
        Not true. Methods of approaching the target - horizontal flight, dive or cabrio.

        Yes nude ??? Here's what you write about. WAYS TO AIM and perform combat use.

        horizontal flight - aiming method? !! Oh well... lol
        1. ancient
          ancient 1 November 2015 18: 16
          +1
          Quote: Svateev
          horizontal flight - aiming method? !! Oh well..


          Well, well, well .. HORIZONTAL FLIGHT is a FLIGHT MODE, in which the AIM and the BATTLE APPLICATION are performed.
          A GOAL TO THE GOAL IS A MANEUVER !!!
          Titarenko also said, "Attention Seryoga ... we are moving away from the sun!" wink
          This is called Sunset and according to DIRECTIONS of flight it is Sunset and according to ALTITUDES and all the complex types of MANEUVERS (I already wrote about this).

          God ... well, it's so easy ... can't it ... "get it" request

          Or simply .. "natural obstinacy" and .. as in the "last time" ... there is no place to retreat .. behind Moscow "therefore" let's throw all our strength on .... "maybe and .." we will blur the topic " wassat
          1. Svateev
            Svateev 1 November 2015 19: 17
            0
            Quote: ancient
            HORIZONTAL FLIGHT is a FLIGHT MODE during which AIM and COMBAT APPLICATIONS are performed.

            That’s so correctly formulated! You can, if you instruct! Maybe in the end you will understand all the disgusting of your statement that we carried out carpet bombing. what
            1. ancient
              ancient 1 November 2015 20: 24
              0
              Quote: Svateev
              That's the way it is correctly formulated!


              Oh .. survived .. "praise" fell from heaven wassat

              Quote: Svateev
              You can, if you instruct!


              Is there a "splash screen" .. a clown? wink And what about your bunch with the afftor pro - "Methods of approaching the target - horizontal flight, dive or pitching".

              "Ate" and not even a shadow of shame in one eye?

              Quote: Svateev
              Maybe in the end you will understand all the disgusting of your statement that we carried out carpet bombing.


              Well, for sure ... from the "political officials" ... I don't know how you ... "carried out" there, but we regularly performed missions for the combat use of an air force from closed battle formations by dropping and salvoing with a series of assigned area targets.

              And how do you understand this .. whether it is carpet or not carpet .. this is the level of your .. development .. while it is MINUS 0 !!!
              1. Svateev
                Svateev 2 November 2015 01: 43
                -1
                Quote: ancient
                And what about your bunch with the afftor pro - "Methods of approaching the target - horizontal flight, dive or pitching".

                So I proved above that this bunch is yours ?! Did not have time to read?
                Quote: ancient
                We regularly performed missions for the combat use of airplanes from closed battle formations by dropping and salvo and a series of assigned areal targets.

                Cities bombed, housing developments ?! Oh no, did they bomb so fortified areas and militant bases? Then shut up about your carpet bombing! To get started, go to Dresden and look there at the museum what real carpet bombing is!
                And if you personally made the decision to bomb the area instead of an exact strike, then this is your personal crime, and you don’t have to hang it on all our aircraft!
                I understand, it’s hard to realize that under your blow innocent people could die. But this was not on purpose, our aviation tried to beat as accurately as possible and the article about Afghanistan was a confirmation of this.
                Stop repenting of non-existent sins and sprinkle ash on your head! Young guys are fighting right now and your moaning is a blow to them in the back! If you want to feel like a "shot down pilot" - be silent! Go to the kitchen, get drunk and howl at the moon! But silently! Got it ?! angry
                1. ancient
                  ancient 2 November 2015 12: 42
                  0
                  Quote: Svateev
                  Enough to repent of nonexistent sins and sprinkle ashes on your head! Young guys are fighting right now and your moaning is a blow to them in the back! If you want to feel like a "shot down pilot" - be silent! Go to the kitchen, get drunk and howl at the moon! But silently! Got it ?!


                  Oh .. the hysteria went .... so I dunked it ... in ..... "in general, change" the call sign to .. "rottenness" or "powdered brains of the PEPSI generation" wassat
                  1. Svateev
                    Svateev 2 November 2015 16: 05
                    -1
                    Quote: ancient
                    Quote: Svateev
                    Enough to repent of nonexistent sins and sprinkle ashes on your head! Young guys are fighting right now and your moaning is a blow to them in the back! If you want to feel like a "shot down pilot" - be silent! Go to the kitchen, get drunk and howl at the moon! But silently! Got it ?!

                    Oh .. the hysteria went .... it means specifically dipped ....

                    Oh, that's what! Such a vile answer to such my words!
                    So you are from the group of devotees! We appeared on the site at the end of last year, write all sorts of meanness in the comments, support each other regardless of the stupid things you wrote, and always try to keep the last word. It would be necessary for the moderators to look at you!
  • ancient
    ancient 31 October 2015 11: 08
    +4
    Quote: Lyton
    they are used to carpet bombing, as in WWII,


    What do you think we did not have such "experience"? wink So I will disbelieve you ... "it was and how it was" and the FBA and in YES .. and some even received Heroes of the Soviet Union ... for "entot..method" wink
    1. Svateev
      Svateev 31 October 2015 20: 28
      +1
      Quote: ancient
      What do you think we didn't have such "experience"? So I will disbelieve you ... "it was and how it was" and the FBA and in YES .. and some even received Heroes of the Soviet Union ... for "entot..method"

      Do a favor, undo. Only please facts, links to documents, etc.
      And then write under the flag of the United States and there "we have ..." Who has it "with us"? You, the United States, have definitely had carpet bombing, starting from Dresden and ending with Vietnam. But I don’t remember.
      1. The stranger
        The stranger 31 October 2015 22: 44
        +1
        Not yet from Italy. There, at Monte Casino, they planted that pig themselves.
      2. ancient
        ancient 1 November 2015 10: 06
        -1
        Quote: Svateev
        Do a favor, undo. Only please facts, links to documents, etc.


        Google to help and .. "forward to the barricades." DB FBA and YES in Afghanistan ... everything is there and who and how much and where and when and how wassat
        And about us .. "don't remember" .. because .. YOU DON'T KNOW !!! Not speaking about some kind of direct participation lol
      3. ancient
        ancient 1 November 2015 10: 15
        -2
        Quote: Svateev
        But I don’t remember.


        Even in the article was ..... read that .. you know? I'm not talking about something to understand lol

        http://topwar.ru/26019-dalnyaya-aviaciya-v-afganistane.html
        1. Svateev
          Svateev 1 November 2015 12: 44
          0
          Quote: ancient
          read it .. know how? I'm not talking about something to understand

          Let's try! At the beginning of your article:
          "We received a combat mission on the spot - to strike at the northwestern outskirts of Herat ... The information received by the 'distant' about the deployment and forces of the enemy did not differ with certainty:" A dozen of them or a whole division, whether they are sitting in the house or holding a meeting in the city square - about Nobody knew anything about that, ”recalled the commander-in-chief of DA VV Reshetnikov. As a result, the raid did not take place."
          So, in this case, we refused to strike on the outskirts of the city precisely because it would be carpet - in the area of ​​the city, and not for specific purposes. Let me remind you that the Americans deliberately covered the area.
          1. ancient
            ancient 1 November 2015 15: 47
            0
            Quote: Svateev
            Let me remind you that the Americans deliberately covered the area.


            For especially stubborn and stubborn, I report ..... the object or goal may have the characteristics of the SQUARE GOAL wink
            1. Svateev
              Svateev 1 November 2015 18: 17
              0
              Quote: ancient
              an object or target may have the characteristics of an SQUARE GOAL

              True, maybe - a large plant, a stronghold of the battalion, etc.
              But the "carpet bombing" of the Americans has a very specific feature - to bomb not the area of ​​the plant or the battalion stronghold, but just a certain area on the ground to destroy ALL THAT THERE ARE - both MILITARY AND CIVIL. With such a bombardment, no reconnaissance is carried out with any targets on this square - why, if EVERYTHING is covered with a carpet.
              Has it come to "especially stubborn and die-hard"?
              1. ancient
                ancient 1 November 2015 20: 29
                -2
                Quote: Svateev
                But the "carpet bombing" of the Americans has a very specific feature.


                For those who are especially stubborn, I repeat ... to me ... from a high bell tower to ... what were the Americans' tasks and what they were doing ... I gave you an article to read about Afghanistan ... how they bombed ours. Or rather, as they write about it.
                You .. "plunged into the METHODS OF APPROACHING THE TARGET" smoothly manipulate you try .. to jump off.
                Fuck you guessed it .. I'll dab you at the most ..

                You're done fool it means we are throwing a series of bombs at an area target, and what if there are the same ... civilians? You yourself checked .. or we will have a series every other time ... one combat and one ... "mentally"?
                No ... it's got to be like that fool
                1. Svateev
                  Svateev 1 November 2015 22: 46
                  -1
                  Quote: ancient
                  me ... from a high bell tower to ... what were the Americans' tasks and what were they doing ..

                  Then what ... you, mu ... to shit ... I declare:
                  Quote: ancient
                  What do you think we didn’t have such "experience"? wink So I will disbelieve you ... "it was and how it was" and the FBA and in YES .. and some even received the Heroes of the Soviet Union ... for "entot..method"

                  If you do not know what and how the Americans did, then do not compare us with them! Sit in your doghouse and be silent in a rag !!!
                2. Svateev
                  Svateev 1 November 2015 22: 56
                  -1
                  Quote: ancient
                  we throw a series of bombs on an area target, what if they find themselves there too .. civilians?

                  If we drop a series of bombs over the area of ​​a military facility, and civilians unexpectedly appear there, this is a tragic accident. But the Americans deliberately bombed the large cities with carpets - in the squares. They knew very well that they were bombing civilians.
                  Why does this difference never reach you ?! angry
        2. Svateev
          Svateev 1 November 2015 12: 58
          -1
          We continue reading the article:
          "The blows of the" twos "were especially impressive: each of the cars carried 64 OFAB-250-270, which fell out in a series from a horizontal flight, after which tens of hectares below boiled up in a continuous carpet of ruptures."
          You interpret this expression - "carpet of tears" - as carpet bombing ?! But this is a description of the blow "on the grouping of Ahmad Shah", that is, on the armed formations, and the bombing itself was carried out aimingly: standing on landfills. " This is not "carpet" bombing!
          1. ancient
            ancient 1 November 2015 15: 45
            -1
            Quote: Svateev
            This expression - "carpet of tears" - you interpret it as carpet bombing ?!


            And .. it sounds like ... "means a carpet of ruptures" is it possible .... but "carpet b / m" is it nizya? wassat

            Oops..yat..mused so much that right up to colic .... WHERE YOU SUCH ... "DONE"? wassat

            WHAT ... you wrote down there about .. "successes with OPB-015T" .. I got right into the duval ... and then suddenly oh .. we need "corners", because. it is necessary at least for something when aiming (this method is called either by ECP or by BPO).
            1. Svateev
              Svateev 1 November 2015 18: 37
              0
              Quote: ancient
              And .. it sounds like ... "means a carpet of ruptures" is it possible .... but "carpet b / m" is it nizya?

              Well, I thought that at the heart of your statements is a primitive "word game"! In the spirit of "You see, it says" carpet of tears "?! Here is the proof of carpet bombing by Soviet aviation!"
              Let me repeat: the "carpet bombing" of the Americans has a very specific feature - to bomb not the area of ​​a factory or a battalion strongpoint, but simply a certain area on the ground in order to destroy EVERYTHING THERE IS THERE - both military and civilian. With such a bombardment, no reconnaissance is produced in this area - why, if EVERYTHING is covered with a carpet?
              A carpet of gaps on the territory of a specific military target in Afghanistan is a good job for our aviation. And the carpet for the explosions of American bombs in the city of Dresden (not in the territory of the factory or military warehouse in the city, but in the territory of urban development) is a crime. The Dresden Gallery was bombed not because they specifically aimed at it, but because they stupidly bombed the entire territory of the city with a carpet. The number of civilian Germans killed is still debated - how many tens or hundreds of thousands were killed.
              So change or not change your American flag, but for whom you work - it is clear from your comments.
            2. Svateev
              Svateev 1 November 2015 18: 43
              0
              Quote: ancient
              WHAT ... after all, you wrote down there about .. "successes with OPB-015T" .. I got directly into the duval ...

              Yes, you still can’t always understand the written text! It also says that I am quoting the article you have indicated, and I am not writing on my own!
              Calm down, take a deep breath, maybe your brains will come back! laughing
              1. ancient
                ancient 1 November 2015 20: 33
                -1
                Quote: Svateev
                Yes, you still can’t always understand the written text! It also says that I am quoting the article you have indicated, and I am not writing on my own!


                I read it a long time ago ... well, how are you .... "our carpet tears ... this is good ", they are kind of humane, but carpet amers is .. well, and further on in your text.

                This is from the series, as the political officer recently spoke on TV .. "telling" about the Afghan call on the Su-24M .. the same .. clown, like you!
                1. Svateev
                  Svateev 1 November 2015 23: 17
                  0
                  Quote: ancient
                  Well, how are you .... "our carpet tears .. it's", they are kind of humane, but carpet amers is .. well, and further on in your text.

                  Well, not the same with me! Here, read it again:
                  The "carpet bombing" of the Americans has a very specific feature - to bomb not the area of ​​the plant or the battalion's strongpoint, but simply a certain area on the ground in order to destroy EVERYTHING THERE IS THERE - BOTH MILITARY AND CIVIL.
                  The "carpet" of ruptures on the territory of a specific military target in Afghanistan is a good work of our aviation. And the carpet of explosions of American bombs on the territory of the city of Dresden (not on the territory of a factory or a military warehouse in the city, but on the territory of urban development) is a crime. The Dresden gallery was bombed not because they were specifically aiming at it, but because the entire territory of the city was stupidly bombed with a carpet.
                  What is not clear then ?!
                  Quote: ancient
                  recently a political officer appeared on TV .. "telling" about the Afghan call on the Su-24M .. the same .. clown, just like you!

                  I think that the deputy politician simply gave the name to some tactical device that appeared in Afghanistan. What so revolts you ?!
          2. ancient
            ancient 1 November 2015 17: 17
            -1
            Quote: Svateev
            each of the vehicles carried 64 OFAB-250-270,


            At this point it was immediately necessary to put a "point" in communication with you .. since I already wrote ... you read the letters .. but you do not understand what you are reading about.

            Remember and pass it on to the rest ... the same as you ... in the belly 250-ok in ONE Tu-22M "intermeddle" 33 pieces (this is taking into account the installation of the middle row of CDs and the removal of the APP-22M container), if also hang "hedgehogs" (though then, in order to hang the 4th "MBD-3", you need to "remove" and wing BD-45Ks), then you get 69 pieces on the plane .. true, he can fly with them ... not very far wassat
            1. Svateev
              Svateev 1 November 2015 19: 11
              0
              Quote: ancient
              At this point it was immediately necessary to put a "point" in communication with you .. since I already wrote ... you read the letters .. but you do not understand what you are reading about.

              Again do not understand what is written? I repeat: these are quotes from the article you recommended! I do not confirm or deny the number of bombs in the compartment, we are talking about something else now!
              1. ancient
                ancient 1 November 2015 20: 37
                -1
                Quote: Svateev
                Again do not understand what is written? I repeat: these are quotes from the article you recommended! I do not confirm or deny the number of bombs in the compartment, we are talking about something else now!


                No .. "sweetest" is you .. "read" all kinds of "crap" and do not even try to see .. that there is a complete "crap written" .. but still .. you have the most "carpet breaks" this is then ... everything else is ... bad.

                And remember .... "a bird that shares a tree" .. Americans without reconnaissance ... be afraid to breathe, and not to send an armada of bombers somewhere!

                And what "goals" are they pursuing ... it's their business ... the psychological effect is always used by everyone.

                Ever heard of mining ... by the air bombs bully .... humanist .. fucking! wassat
                1. Svateev
                  Svateev 1 November 2015 22: 34
                  -1
                  Quote: ancient
                  it's you .. you "read" every .. "crap" and do not even try to see .. that there is a complete "crap written".

                  Listen, you won’t please! First YOU RECOMMEND THIS ARTICLE YOURSELF, and now you swear that I quote it! It turns out that there is "crap written". If only for the sake of decency you followed the logic, I'm not asking you to conduct the discussion honestly!
                  Quote: ancient
                  the psychological effect of all and always used.

                  Well, you have opened your true views. Approve the carpet bombing of the Americans! Do you think that this barbarism gave some kind of psychological effect, beneficial to the Americans ?!
                  Let me disappoint you. If a person does not leave hope for survival, then he ceases to be afraid, mobilizes and begins to act decisively. For a start, read "Volokolamskoe shosse" or something. There it is very convincingly shown that when ours made an ambush from one side of the road, then opening fire from the ambush, our platoon put a company and even a battalion into panic flight. The Germans ran away to the side, free from our ambush, not paying attention to the orders of their commanders. But when ours made an ambush on both sides of the road, the Germans who were ambushed did not wait for death between two fires, but went head-on on our machine guns and, despite the huge losses, overturned the ambush itself.
                  Carpet bombardment does not leave hope to survive, and moreover, to the whole country, since it can cover any city of the country at any time. And after one or two carpet bombings, the entire population of the country ceases to be afraid, and begins to hate the enemy fiercely. Do bombers need such an effect? Hardly!
        3. Svateev
          Svateev 1 November 2015 13: 09
          0
          We continue reading the article:
          "came into use attacks on bases and base areas, on which the "regiments" and "fronts" began to rely, which united the former scattered gangs under the command of large field commanders. There were different bases that served as a support for one formation, transshipment bases and points from which weapons were shipped and caravans were dispatched, and large base areas, including headquarters, warehouses, weapons and cartridge workshops, communication centers and training centers. The places for them were hard-to-reach gorges, lost in the mountains. "
          These strikes are also clearly not "carpet bombing".
          1. ancient
            ancient 1 November 2015 15: 40
            -2
            Quote: Svateev
            "attacks on bases and base areas have become common,


            For especially "stoned" wassat explain:
            1.BASE is an OBJECT
            2.BASE DISTRICT is a "SQUARE"!
        4. Svateev
          Svateev 1 November 2015 13: 15
          0
          We continue reading the article:
          "The main task of the group was to cover the withdrawn units and locations with preemptive attacks on deployment areas of firearms opposition, as well as the disruption of shelling of large cities, striking by bases and warehouses,"
          Here, too, aiming strikes, not "carpet".
          1. ancient
            ancient 1 November 2015 15: 38
            -1
            Quote: Svateev
            preemptive strikes on areas of deployment of opposition firepower


            Of course not ... the whole area is 10 by 30 km ... not ... it's just "sighting" wassat
            1. Svateev
              Svateev 1 November 2015 18: 49
              0
              Quote: ancient
              whole 10 area at 30 km

              Where do these huge numbers come from ?! There is no "10 by 30 km" in the article and no figures for the size of these areas are indicated at all!
              1. ancient
                ancient 1 November 2015 20: 39
                0
                Quote: Svateev
                Where do these huge numbers come from ?!


                It is clear and ... I saw the army only in the picture or .... from the series "Lieutenant of the Air Force Reserve" .. so at least he is obstinate in moderation and at least is interested in something and knows something, and you ... no words fool
                1. Svateev
                  Svateev 1 November 2015 22: 04
                  -1
                  Quote: ancient
                  Quote: Svateev
                  Where do these huge numbers come from ?!

                  It’s clear and ... I saw the Army only in the picture

                  All you can answer a specific question? I’ll ask you more simply: where did these numbers come from? lol
        5. Svateev
          Svateev 1 November 2015 13: 30
          -1
          We continue reading the article:
          "Sometimes Tu-16s were attracted to night strikes, while the area was illuminated by the SAB with the Su-17."
          Even at night - the most targeted bombing. When "carpet bombing" of the area, illumination is not required at all!
          We continue reading the article:
          "There were some mistakes - the inevitable satellites of high-altitude bombing, in which the dispersion of the order of 300-500 m was considered normal: the explosions of the" nine-ton "lay too close to the checkpoint near Kabul and led to concussions of the fighters on duty there, some of whom lost their hearing."
          So, dear "ancient"! gaps too close to "no target" were regarded by our aviation as a miss. AND Americans CONSCIOUSLY bombed the area without scouting targets, and bombed so that it was guaranteed to destroy everything that was there - military, civil ...
        6. Svateev
          Svateev 1 November 2015 13: 47
          -1
          Finish reading these quotes:
          "The attacks on the" dushman ring "around Kabul continued for the next two weeks, falling mainly on the surrounding mountain plateaus and ridges, from where launches were noted from checkpoints, as well as on explored warehouses and missile storage facilities ...
          With the exit to the designated square, the entire crew was connected to the aid of the navigator-operator, looking for the target. For the attack, the group scattered, and each took aim individually using the OPB-15T television sight, which gave a high-resolution picture. At the same time, control of the aircraft passed to the navigator, and the reset followed in automatic mode. The accuracy of the bombing was impressive: it happened that on a dispute, navigators placed bombs in a separate structure or duval. More often, however, the gaps covered the indicated square. "
          Let’s clarify that the squares were indicated according to the goals of the stronghold type — fortifications or warehouses distributed over a certain area of ​​the terrain.
        7. Svateev
          Svateev 1 November 2015 13: 55
          -2
          And finish reading the article:
          “Only one of the sorties ended in a scandal, when during the bombing off Kandahar in December one of the dropped bombs fell near the headquarters of the Afghan 2nd Army Corps, and another exploded right in a residential area, killing several dozen people. Governor General N. Olumi flew in with a complaint, and a joint commission of General V. Afanasyev and Afghan Kadyr arrived in Mary. "
          So, "ancient"! The article that you indicated as proof of carpet bombing by our aviation says exactly the opposite - about the PERMANENT AIMED bombing by our pilots.
          Therefore, let me consider you an ordinary troll.
          am
          1. ancient
            ancient 1 November 2015 15: 34
            +1
            Quote: Svateev
            So, "ancient"! The article that you indicated as proof of carpet bombing by our aviation says exactly the opposite - about the PERMANENT AIMED bombing by our pilots.


            Dear .... what do you think that bb / m may not be aimed ???? wassat

            All A PRIORI bombing is AIMED ... with the exception of EMERGENCY RESET to "Explosion" or "NO EXPLOSION".

            I will not even answer all your other comments. You read one thing, but you see .. "a fig with butter"

            All the rest of your comments on the article .. this is an excerpt of slogans of the era of Marxism-Leninism and the glory of the CPSU

            From 9 meters from 000PB-o0T ..... well, "masters" .. damn it, and especially .. the group ... crumbled.
            wassat
            On Tu-22s, and indeed on all YES aircraft, during bombing, "control" (that is, along the course) is always transferred to the navigator!
            Well, the "dispute" yes to Duval ... or maybe all the same in the specified square (mainly on the surrounding mountain plateaus and ridges).

            In short, my conclusion .. or you "stubbornly fool "or .... first grader!

            Therefore, the request is more ... do not disturb! soldier
            1. Sling cutter
              Sling cutter 1 November 2015 18: 33
              +1
              Quote: ancient
              ancient

              Greetings, my brother! soldier
              I read your debate and I think that you need to write a number of articles on the combat use of aviation in Afghanistan !!!
              otherwise unnecessary disputes will continue ..
              Explain to people that in "that distant country" new experience was gained in the use of the Air Force, interaction with ground forces, as well as on performing special operations to support the ground forces of the 40th Army soldier
              1. ancient
                ancient 1 November 2015 20: 41
                0
                Quote: Stroporez
                Greetings, my brother!


                Hello, BOCHA !!! drinks
                This is not a debate this .. "self-satisfaction .. dry" wassat I felt that he was a sick person .. but that was so much on you too .. "got involved" fool
                1. Svateev
                  Svateev 1 November 2015 22: 01
                  -1
                  Quote: ancient
                  I felt that this is a sick person ..

                  Did you feel deeply? I mean how far is it? wassat
                2. Sling cutter
                  Sling cutter 2 November 2015 06: 35
                  +2
                  Quote: ancient
                  Hello, BOCHA !!! drinks

                  Hey Ya! drinks
                  I recently had the opportunity to argue ... or debate with a theorist about statutes and "terminology" laughing
                  They tried hard to prove to me that a group (department) of five fellow ! a person is not able to wage a battle with an opponent quantitatively superior 10 times belay without support of art and aircraft!
                  The discussion ended with the broken nose of the opponent repeat
                  And I just shake my hand to Soviet aviators! soldier and for a snack
                3. The comment was deleted.
            2. Svateev
              Svateev 1 November 2015 19: 06
              -2
              Quote: ancient
              Dear .... what do you think that bb / m may not be aimed ????

              Again a word game! But I will answer: aiming can be carried out on a specific military target, or maybe on a specific area in order to grind any targets in this area in the hope that there will be military targets among them. If you play your game with words, then in both cases it is "sighting B / M" and it seems like both of these methods are equivalent. But in fact, carpet bombing is the revenge of a crap coward not even to his abuser, but to his children and old people.
              Quote: ancient
              All the rest of your comments on the article .. this is an excerpt of slogans of the era of Marxism-Leninism and the glory of the CPSU

              Well, if reasoned comments are the era of Marxism-Leninism, then "Glory to the KPSS"! fellow
              1. ancient
                ancient 1 November 2015 20: 45
                +1
                Quote: Svateev
                ! But I’ll answer: aiming can be carried out for a specific military target, or maybe for a specific area in order to grind any targets in this area in the hope that there will be military targets among them.


                UUUUUUIDI HEROD from my eyes ... do not spoil the gentle AVIATION LANGUAGE with your ... "pearls" .. with them only in the "rooms" to sit and from there shout ... "BUSY" wassat

                "Defined military target" belay "aiming at a certain area" ... God save me .. I can't stand this anymore wassat

                Well, why are you here in RUSSIA .. "give birth", well, what have we done wrong? wassat
                1. Svateev
                  Svateev 1 November 2015 21: 58
                  -2
                  Quote: ancient
                  I can’t stand it anymore

                  You stand, you stand ... You really have no arguments, but the ambition remains even higher than the roof!
                  Quote: ancient
                  do not spoil the gentle AVIATION LANGUAGE with your ... "pearls" ..

                  And this is said by a person who has just repeatedly confused all the terms! Indeed, pride is the main sin! tongue
    2. Asadullah
      Asadullah 31 October 2015 22: 11
      0
      .and some even Heroes of the Soviet Union received.


      And which of the dalniks received?
  • onix757
    onix757 31 October 2015 08: 06
    -12 qualifying.
    Unfortunately, the reality is that no bombs can now defeat motley groups and restore order in Syria. It was necessary to save Syria 4 years ago, but today it is already a farce, a good mine with a bad game .. you can call it whatever you like.
    1. Vita vko
      Vita vko 31 October 2015 08: 27
      18
      Quote: onix757
      Syria needed 4 years ago

      They saved her when they destroyed chemical weapons. It took time for politicians and the military to appreciate the extremely low effectiveness of the fight against terrorists of the NATO coalition forces. Now this is a blow not only to terrorists, but also to the authority of NATO. In addition, the flow of refugees from these regions and the beginning of the election campaign in the United States forced NATO countries to cooperate with Russia and Iran. 4 years ago it was simply not possible, so everything was done clearly and on time.
      1. onix757
        onix757 31 October 2015 08: 56
        -8
        They saved her when they destroyed chemical weapons.
        And in a place with him and Syria and a good part of a combat-ready army.
        It took time for politicians and the military to appreciate the extremely low effectiveness of the fight against terrorists of the NATO coalition forces.
        What can you imagine to justify impotence)
        In addition, the flow of refugees from these regions and the beginning of the election campaign in the United States forced NATO countries to cooperate with Russia and Iran.
        1) How is cooperation progressing and in what?
        2) What useful states can Syria give?
        so that everything is done clearly and on time.
        All about but on time. As always, complete unwillingness to defend national interests in a timely manner.
      2. onix757
        onix757 31 October 2015 09: 03
        +4
        No, this phrase still smiles at me
        politicians and the military rated the extremely low effectiveness of the fight against terrorists of NATO coalition forces.

        Who authorized this coalition to meet in Syria 4 years ago?)
    2. Senior manager
      Senior manager 31 October 2015 09: 32
      +3
      Remember your words and after a year or two, give yourself a rating, only honestly.
    3. Alekseev
      Alekseev 31 October 2015 09: 34
      +9
      Quote: onix757
      no bombs can now defeat motley groups and restore order in Syria.

      Only bombs, of course, cannot restore order.
      But they help a lot!yes laughing
      1. onix757
        onix757 31 October 2015 09: 42
        +2
        Undoubtedly help, but .. the result is important. What will be the outcome, a quarter of Syria or half of Syria under the control of Assad (the ATS army has no resources to liberate the entire territory)? And how much in general Assad will be able to maintain power with the help of 30 aircraft (called all that they could ..)?
    4. Garris199
      Garris199 1 November 2015 02: 53
      +1
      Quote: onix757
      It was necessary to save Syria 4 years ago,

      Four years ago, we were not ready to save anyone. Today we already have something. If this upheaval had begun after the implementation of GPV 2020, then, believe me, salvation would have been very quick and tough. We are rearming. And none of the enemies wants to calmly wait until we finish the program.
  • aszzz888
    aszzz888 31 October 2015 08: 42
    +1
    We bomb well, but it’s not infinite.
    Will there be a truce after the negotiations in Vienna?
    Two weeks later, they plan to negotiate directly with the government and the opposition.
    Let's see what comes out of this swarm.
    1. zennon
      zennon 31 October 2015 20: 14
      0
      Quote: aszzz888
      We bomb well, but it’s not infinite.
      Will there be a truce after the negotiations in Vienna?

      With whom? With savages? Oh, what are you! Assad was immediately told-we will only bomb while he is coming. We will not fight for him. The trouble is in Syria itself. There is a decent patchwork. Many groups of warriors are all against everyone. change color from time to time. I don’t know how to put them all together.
  • Denis Skiff
    Denis Skiff 31 October 2015 10: 04
    +1
    It should be especially noted that the effectiveness of bombing using the SVP-24 system is little dependent on weather conditions and the range of visibility in the target area, since it is determined by the GLONASS system
    It is cool and very effective.
    1. ancient
      ancient 31 October 2015 11: 03
      +3
      Quote: Denis-Skiff
      It is cool and very effective.


      Yes .. but what about the differential corrections station? wink
      And the author "modestly" is silent about the fact that the work is being carried out on .. "STATIONARY" goals wink
      And .. the effectiveness of combat use is determined precisely by the combat capabilities of the SVP-24 itself, well, that’s not how .. GLONASS wink
      1. Svateev
        Svateev 31 October 2015 19: 31
        0
        Quote: ancient
        And the author "modestly" is silent about the fact that the work is being carried out on .. "STATIONARY" goals

        No, the author is not silent. Here is a quote from the article: "What limits the use of this weapon only at stationary targets. Probably for this reason, with rare exceptions, our aviation in Syria is working to destroy infrastructure."
        Quote: ancient
        Yes .. but what about the differential corrections station?

        And specifically what is the problem? Bombs hit the target? Get in! So, either such a station exists, or you can do without it.
      2. Asadullah
        Asadullah 31 October 2015 22: 25
        0
        And .. the effectiveness of combat use is determined precisely by the combat capabilities of the SVP-24 itself, well, that’s not how .. GLONASS


        Explain, dear. as far as I know, SVP-24 was created just for integration with GLONASS.

        And what are the features of bombing against "non-stationary" targets? Increased consumption b \ n? smile
        1. ancient
          ancient 1 November 2015 16: 19
          0
          Quote: Asadullah
          And what are the features of bombing against "non-stationary" targets?


          These targets are generally classified as mobile and .. have a tendency to .. "move" or relocate wink
  • Sergey Sitnikov
    Sergey Sitnikov 31 October 2015 10: 39
    0
    the work is massive, but the abundance of abbreviations and%))) - I was constantly lost in the text, I won’t even mention it before!
    1. ancient
      ancient 31 October 2015 10: 59
      0
      Quote: Sergey Sitnikov
      massive work, but the abundance of abbreviations and%


      "Trud" from the series to write about the fact that "I heard the ringing, yes .. does not know where he is" soldier

      And the abbreviation .. so practically and not .... this is for the "afftor" already specificity, which for him ... is not available in understanding! wink
  • NIKNN
    NIKNN 31 October 2015 11: 09
    +4
    Article is good, thanks! However, it is difficult to perceive without appropriate preparation.
    Thus, conventional ammunition gains effectiveness commensurate with high-precision weapons. The developers claim that the accuracy of the bombing

    Probable deflection at BM with a free-falling bomb Su-24M for H> 1000m VO = 8H \ + 0,1V, and with Nmal. VO = 40m. Where H is the drop height in km. V speed in km / h.
    1. ancient
      ancient 31 October 2015 12: 19
      +4
      Quote: NIKNN
      Probable deflection at BM with a free-falling bomb Su-24M for H> 1000m VO = 8H \ + 0,1V


      Write correctly, +! Just add that this is for "Kaira" .. and if with RPO, then 1VO = 75 meters, if with PPV, then 50 meters, if the work is "take away" (for ESP), then + 5 "offsets" in km. drinks
      1. Lyton
        Lyton 31 October 2015 12: 45
        +5
        Come on, ancient, I already understood that judging by your comments, not only this article has a direct relation to aviation, but you don’t have to put people in such a sharp place, not everyone here is such professionals as you, therefore, we’re not so strictly.
        1. ancient
          ancient 31 October 2015 15: 47
          +5
          Quote: Lyton
          but you don’t have to put people in place so sharply, not all here are professionals like you, therefore we are not so strict judged.


          Alexander drinks This is not the point .. "who is ... hu", but the fact that the information being communicated would correspond to TRUE, or at least .. close to her!

          But imagine .. I and .. "I'll start" in the Naval theme or in the tank theme and .. I start people .. "to ride on the ears, so our Sailors and Tankers .. will eat me alive and even without salt, never this does not wince lol
          And since I took up the FEATHER..then kindly .. correspond! soldier

          Here is an example from a respected Dongo drinks that’s never a pilot, but what highly professional articles he writes good ..always expensive to read.
          And dear Andrey is from Chelyabinsk, and Udavv is Kaa, and AleksTV, and ... yes, unless all ... "you can list".
          The article should be of interest ... example .. dear Oleg Kaptsov drinks (what a heated debate during the discussions), but here ... so ... about everything and ... about nothing, especially since it is impossible to present "specific" topics in general .. "in simple lay language" .. be good first "specificity", and then .. "chew". that would be digestible for everyone!

          ntsu maybe it's just my old .. "grumbling"! wink +
      2. NIKNN
        NIKNN 31 October 2015 12: 51
        +6
        ancientdrinks Absolutely right.
      3. zennon
        zennon 31 October 2015 20: 18
        +2
        Quote: ancient
        Just add that it is for "Kaira".

        Aren't all Su 24M equipped with the Kaira?
        1. ancient
          ancient 1 November 2015 16: 20
          -1
          Quote: zennon
          Aren't all Su 24M equipped with the Kaira?


          Of course everything .. just for RPO + Seagull IN a little more wink
  • chunga-changa
    chunga-changa 31 October 2015 11: 55
    +5
    They mixed up the cart with the horse. Westerners do not use high-precision weapons so that civilians do not suffer, they just do not care about civilians like everyone else, including stupid propaganda. The main property of such weapons is the ability to use them from a great height and range from the object, without entering the air defense zone. Without adjustment and control, to get with simple missiles and gliding bombs, anywhere from such a distance is stupidly impossible. Free-falling bombs were actively used with the B-52 only after the suppression of anti-aircraft defense, when the anus from the prospect of flying over the target ceased to compress. If the pilots do not experience such problems, free-falling bombs can be used at any time and for any purpose.
    The tactics of using high-precision weapons in the west - on-duty aircraft for hours, continuously fly far in their rear, at high altitude, outside the zone of enemy air defense. Fighters, ground air defense and Avaxia cover the area of ​​duty from fighter attacks. Information comes about the detected target, high-precision weapons are launched from the same zone, if not hit, they are repeated.
    We have. They found a target, planes took off, found a target, dropped bombs. If necessary, repeat the call.
    Of course, the western model is much better for pilots from the point of view of safety, but it is complex, it requires a lot of effort and experience in organizing, it is very expensive. Our model is better in terms of simplicity and low cost. If the enemy has air defense, then from the point of view of safety for pilots, our system is simply none. Remember the war of 888 - losses, pilots in captivity.
  • Olegmog
    Olegmog 31 October 2015 11: 56
    +1
    Not so much money is required to remake
    freely falling, in correctable! There are examples!
    Maybe we need to move in this direction. On the
    there are many old ammunition depots!
    1. Svateev
      Svateev 31 October 2015 19: 49
      +3
      Quote: Olegmog
      remake
      freely falling, in correctable!

      So the article just compares these two approaches: 1) JDAM - convert every bomb into an adjustable 2) SVP-24 system, which makes the free-falling bomb almost as accurate.
      In the first case, "the kit costs about 26 thousand dollars" to rework each bomb. And this kit is disposable - it dies along with the bomb. And with our approach, the SVP-24 system is located on the aircraft and can be used as many times as you like. Can you imagine the difference in the cost of approaches ?!
      Here is the answer to you, why the Pentagon’s budget is 10 times bigger, and we are not afraid of it wink
  • Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 31 October 2015 13: 02
    -1
    Be that as it may, our aviation was not unarmed in such an acute situation. And with eyes, and with "claws" she is normal.
  • victor
    victor 31 October 2015 14: 14
    +1
    << And this is in conditions when the militants of the "Islamic State" have been under the blows of the US and NATO aircraft for a long time now >> - that's it, I didn't finish reading it - he died ... He didn't even finish his beer ... does not eat ... My wife realized that the stash can be taken away - she went somewhere ... Probably went to enroll in ATO pilots ... or NATO ...
  • Letterksi
    Letterksi 31 October 2015 14: 25
    0
    Such beautiful pictures! Impressive! Orders from other countries for weapons will flow like from a cornucopia.
  • Yarik
    Yarik 31 October 2015 18: 31
    0
    On Su 24 and 25 Bobmbochs are old, from 1954-56. Something was never seen in 1986 and more modern.
  • Filxnumx
    Filxnumx 31 October 2015 19: 15
    +3
    [quote = ancient] [quote = Lyton]
    There are standards for AO a / b from the target, depending on the altitude, SPEED and .. METHOD OF AIMING .... but certainly not ... "the method of approach of the aircraft to the target."
    [/ Quote]
    That is, for you there is no difference between bombing from the "horizon" and from a dive? From a steep dive, you can put a bomb in a circle with a diameter of 10 m, without using any PRNK at all, along the rivets on the fuselage. The main problem of all navigation and targeting complexes: insufficient accuracy of determining the position of the aircraft and the target, because it is solved in traditional PRN by traditional methods: radio navigation, astroinertial, etc. SVP-24 does not replace the operation of existing PRN, it is built in instead of the old subsystem for determining coordinates places and, as a result, increases the accuracy of the entire complex by an order of magnitude. I can judge this firsthand, although I am not a specialist on the radio, tk. not so long ago, even during my service in the RF Armed Forces, this system was tested at our airfield on DA aircraft. For a year, squadron radio operators and our TEChevskys, the chief designer and the senior engineer of the unit for the electronic equipment, were not expressing it for days from the parking lot, they were bringing it to mind. For a long time they could not achieve normal conjugation in the operation of the SVP units and the units of the old PRNK, they stably knocked out gas stations. Much was based on the enthusiasm of the chief designer and his brigade, because they still had to convince the "upper" command in the headquarters of the necessity and prospects of their work. In the front-line aviation everything went faster and easier. But you would have seen the joy in the eyes of the crew commander when he entered the headquarters with the navigator (I was already then an engineer of the C and D unit) and "right from the door" began to excitedly tell how they bombed great: "well, just the bull's-eye!" Then they flew for a long time both individually and in a group, accumulating statistics, although there was no GLONASS then, they worked on GPS. The high efficiency was fully confirmed: deviations on the target field were within the range of 3 - 16 meters. Moreover, when flying in a group, the SVP-24 system did not necessarily have to be on all aircraft, it was enough to work with the leader, the rest were bombed using a lag between the wingmen and the leader. So you can handle either one target with the whole group, where each subsequent pilot puts bombs in almost the same place where the previous pilot was bombed or a group of targets where everyone works on their own target, using commands from the leader. Now there are plans to equip the SVP with a dozen and a half long-range vehicles, enough money.
    1. Svateev
      Svateev 31 October 2015 19: 57
      -1
      Quote: Fil743
      at our airport conducted tests of this system

      Quote: Fil743
      deviations on the target field were within

      Quote: Fil743
      Now in plans

      Hey hey colleague! You did not forget about secrecy ?! stop
      1. The stranger
        The stranger 1 November 2015 14: 03
        +1
        And he didn't say anything like that. As it is "in principle" written in old student textbooks - read - I don't want to. All kinds of radio navigation books - mountains. True, it is wildly encrypted by mathematics, which is why you don't even need a stamp of secrecy from an ordinary man in the street :) Here's how exactly it is done in this system is definitely a secret, and I'm interested. But since no one will tell me, and indeed will say - I myself have forgotten that mathematics long ago - I don't even ask. I can roughly imagine what problems we managed to solve, and quietly envy in white. A very childish task, even "in principle". In the gland - even more so.
    2. ancient
      ancient 1 November 2015 16: 39
      -1
      Quote: Fil743
      With a vertical dive, you can put a bomb in a circle with a diameter of 10 m,


      From the "sheer" already for years ... in short, in that century until the 80s, they were ready to fly, then ... usyo (only in "conflicts" there is SOK .. "freebie" and all of their wink Well, those .. who was ready and allowed)
      ..I captured wink

      The main problem of the complexes is not in ... some kind of navigation, but in the EXHIBITION and in the accuracy of the NUMBER, i.e. how the AOshniki will "lick" the MIS .. then the accuracy will be right and .. "everything else."
      And all sorts of "correctors" .... yes, they "attract" the complex to the truth, but if it has already "run," then .. even if "correct" .. all the same "no inconsistencies" will be .. then it is easier to switch to the number from SLE.
      And what kind of astroinertzial ???? And how is this SVP-24 .. just built in? Orbit, PPV- down and old Binom and in their place completely different blocks wink
      Well, since you are talking about SVP-24-22, then yourself .. "Ryazan"? drinks
      Well, with the fact that .. "practically in the same place as the presenter" .. I do not agree ... firstly, no one has canceled the interval and distance in the ranks, and secondly ... "brake time" is also present .. until the front cockpit "flies" a reset .. until the navigator hears and presses the COP (we take into account that he did not forget to turn on the main one and set the "Order" and "Series-build") wink
      Well, if everyone works according to their own goal, then ..... everything will be as before .. The presenter was hit, and the rest .. "whoever knows how" drinks
      Yours faithfully, soldier
  • iouris
    iouris 31 October 2015 19: 25
    +1
    K. Sivkov, of course, is an expert, but, on the whole, it’s not very believable. So that from 5000 m the deviation of the bomb from the aiming point does not exceed 20-25 m, the air-to-air ratio should be 5-7 m, the standard deviation - 7-10 m. The ballistic characteristics of the bomb also have a spread.
    1. Svateev
      Svateev 31 October 2015 20: 51
      -1
      Quote: iouris
      not very believable. So that with 5000 m the deviation of the bomb from the aiming point does not exceed 20-25 m

      The Ministry of Defense publishes video reports. For example, here it’s interesting:
      http://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/[email protected]
  • Veps
    Veps 1 November 2015 03: 09
    +1
    The article is funny, comrade. Purely, as a person who knows quite well the regular PNS on the SU-24M, I can safely say that back in Soviet times, when the first (in common parlance, specialists call "low") of the SU-24M series went, after a certain training of crews in the regiments , it was possible to hit a "detached rural house" type target (size 100x250 meters) with an ammunition of the FAB-10 or FAB-10 type from the nose-up at a given point with ammunition such as FAB-24 or FAB-2. Young flyers in the exercises "mother-in-law in the garden" bombed so hard that my mother did not cry. When the PNS was upgraded to the SU-2M during a major overhaul, the performance increased several times for aimed bombing. Even the ground navigators, who used to do the alignment and referencing along the route for the Orbit on-board computer, became practically unnecessary. That's what the new digital on-board computer does! This case is already fifteen years ago. Come to the training ground near Voronezh, see how people have been hitting the XNUMXxXNUMX square with unguided bombs for ten years already.
  • midshipman
    midshipman 1 November 2015 09: 52
    +1
    Dear readers of "VO", there will be time to read my article "The task is to improve the accuracy of missile and bomb strikes." In "VO". I have the honor.