Military Review

The end of the assault rifle service in the German armed forces HK G36

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Defense Minister Ursula von der Leyen officially announced on 8 September 2015 that the assault rifle service from Heckler & Koch is drawing to a close. So the million dollar question arose. Which model will replace the decommissioned G36 in 2019?

Stefan Perey


End of service: The era in which the Heckler & Koch G36 5.56x45mm NATO assault rifle was in service with the German armed forces seems to have finally achieved its goal.


The G36 rifle in 5.56x45mm NATO from the world-renowned manufacturer Heckler & Koch from Oberndorf am Neckar in the Swabian region of Germany was adopted in 1997 based on official specifications. It was designed for a 20-year lifespan, which at least the early rifles of the very first batches in 2017 survived.

Now, unfortunately, the decision of the Minister of Defense means that in the future there will not even be a modified or improved version of the HK G36 in service with the armed forces of Germany.

Long-term partners: German Armed Forces and Heckler & Koch

Heckler & Koch has been a respected supplier to the German military since the birth of the Federal Republic of Germany. Let's not forget that the Heckler & Koch G3 7.62x51mm NATO rifles are automatic weapon with a semi-free bolt, were adopted by the Bundeswehr back in the year 1959.

The collapse of the Warsaw Pact in the early 1990s hit Germany's arms industry hard. The futuristic Heckler & Koch G11 rifle, chambered for 4.73x33mm caseless cartridges, was originally intended to replace the 3x7.62mm NATO G51, but due to reduced defense costs and problems with the weapon itself, it ended up still languishing in military collections. artifacts for study by interested historians.


First prototype HK 50, predecessor to Heckler & Koch G36


Heckler & Koch HK50 alias G36 since early 90s


HK G36 model in section

In 1992, Germany decided to introduce a new assault rifle, intended for firing 5.56X45mm caliber cartridges, which were adopted as a NATO standard from the 1986 year.

The trend towards small low-pulse calibers clearly arose because NATO partners in Europe, such as the United Kingdom with its Enfield SA 80, France with FAMAS or Belgium with FNC, and the United States with M-16, have already followed this example.

The budget constraints were dictated by one of the technical specifications: determine the appropriate design that has already been developed.
Two rifles, the Austrian Steyr AUG and the German Heckler & Koch HK50, entered the final list and were sent to 91 Bundeswehr technical centers in Meppen for comprehensive testing.

Earlier, a radical redistribution of the world power, which sounded the death knell for a major project G11, drove HK almost to the wall and the company was eventually absorbed by the British corporation Royal Ordnance.

Thus, the HK 50 project provided HK with a chance to get back on its feet. The company abandoned the idea of ​​a rifle with a semi-free shutter with roller braking and a body of extruded steel, instead turning to weapons with automatic gas with a short stroke of the gas piston and a butterfly valve in the body of reinforced polymer.

The dawn of a new service rifle, 5.56x45, fell on 8 on May 1995, when the head of the German Armed Forces Directorate General authorized the adoption of an assault rifle, thus blessing HK50 under the new official G36 index. The highly symbolic transfer took place on 3 on December 1997 of the year, when Rüdiger Petereit, director of the Federal Bureau of Defense Technologies and Procurement (BWB), introduced G36 to Major General Reiner Fell, Chief of Logistics Command SV, describing this event as the beginning of a "special period in stories weapons. "

Relationship Development: What kind of weapons were ordered by the German armed forces?


Current design: G36 KA4 with an EOTech telescope with backlight, 3x magnification, a light-laser module and an AG 36 40x36mm grenade launcher


Despite the media hype and discussion of the G36 Heckler & Koch, it should always be kept in mind that this assault rifle was introduced at a time when "9/11", the global war on terrorism, and German soldiers were fighting overseas in the desert. in Afghanistan and Iraq, it was quite inconceivable that the rifle would continue to provide superior value for money.

Heckler & Koch supplied what the specifications demanded in a relatively peaceful period. In addition, 55 countries currently use the Heckler & Koch assault rifle, among them 35 NATO countries belonging to NATO or the North Atlantic Alliance. There doesn't seem to be any customer complaints in such a long time, which means the whole "assault rifle scandal" is nothing more than a purely German issue.

But, undoubtedly, negative media reports have become frequent since 2012, claiming that the G36, once warmed up when fired, has a tendency to inaccurate shooting, and that effective combat against enemy forces is more or less impossible. These claims led to discussions and disputes between the German Ministry of Defense (in this case, the Federal Office of Defense Technologies and Procurement) and the manufacturer from the Black Forest. The statement that an assault rifle can become so inaccurate in the extreme conditions of foreign operations that it loses proof of its accuracy has dealt a severe blow to the image of a well-known manufacturer, hitting engineering skills.


A temporary solution now is the immediate provision of 600 G27P assault rifles of the 7.62x51mm NATO caliber, based on the design of the HK 417


HK 416 A5 caliber 5.56x45mm, will undoubtedly become one of the many alternatives G36


To summarize briefly: in March 2012 of the year, the German armed forces presented a “firing cycle under conditions close to the deployment of the Mission” (EBZ) as a standard operating procedure that describes the entire daily firing cycle of 150 rounds in 20 minutes.
The manufacturer took this EBZ to conduct tests at home with 10 different G36 models made from 1996 to 2008 year, which led to the publication of the report on the 134 pages "G36 assault rifle - analysis of the dispersion and accuracy behavior of the weapon when it overheats after a long shoot" .

Naturally, as with any other weapon, the laws of physics mean that overheated weapons will produce more large dispersed shots, and G36 is no exception.

But it is equally true that, in contrast to biased media, this degree of increased dispersion of shots and loss of accuracy is usually the exception rather than the rule, although the ammunition used is, of course, an additional factor (dual core ammunition MEN DM 11 also been criticized).

And so the inevitable happened: the Federal Office of Defense Technologies and Procurement applied for warranty service, based on significant overheating deficiencies and issues related to the service rifle. This led to further trials by independent institutes, and in April 2015, Ursula von der Leyen expressed her opinion for the first time that G36 would need to be replaced immediately.

Was the scandal associated with the assault rifle, the Germans?

In this regard, it is interesting to note that in the introductory paragraph to the latest, final part of the report of the Federal Bureau of the Bundeswehr equipment, information technology and service support (BAAINBw) partially rehabilitates G36. Unfortunately, we are still not in a position to view the full report, although only the preface by Major General Erich Könen, the head of the ground combat department at BAAINBw, triggered a political storm.


No one could have guessed that for the first phase of World War II, German soldiers would be called upon to use HK G 36 when the weapon was introduced in 1997.



Rumors circulated by 13 in May 2015 of the year suggested that opposition politicians accuse the Ministry of Defense of editing the final report before presenting it to the German parliament, burying the preface.

The Green Party defense expert, Tobias Lindner, called on Ursula von der Leyen to immediately present the foreword to the Defense Committee.

"The minister should explain why she provided parliament with incomplete information." The powers that be were forced to publish a controversial foreword online, accessible to anyone interested in reading it. And, in fact, the preface contains a passage that appears to question the decision about the withdrawal of G36. Here is a quote from the section in question:

“It is important to clarify that in order to understand the report, its purpose is not to evaluate other functional properties of the G36 assault rifle, related to its mass, reliability and functionality.

The battle situation "ambush" was chosen as, taking a cross-section of its basic tactical principles, it seems best suited for a "demanding battle situation" to analyze the consequences we asked for an investigation.

These situations are met and performed in all degrees of intensity and competence. Ambushes are combat situations in which combat troops and auxiliary forces can be drawn at any time. In these cases, the soldiers are forced to deal with high intensity combat.
The armed forces will be called upon during the review process to assess the likelihood of their occurrence. The result of this study will provide the armed forces with an understanding of how G36 works in an extremely demanding technical area, which will therefore enable them to draw conclusions for the preparation and execution of the mission as part of their operational and support duties. The G36 Selection Committee believes that G36 remains a reliable and functional weapon. The report does not indicate that the G36 rifle represents a risk to shooters, and there is no such risk at any point during the deployment of the weapon. "


Construction of bullpaps from other manufacturers: Croatian model VHS-2 from HS Products


ST Kinetics BMCR from Singapore will not be included in the selection procedure for new weapons for the German Army

Interesting workaround - also from Heckler & Koch

Now, 600 G27P assault rifles, based on the 417x7.62mm HK 51 and 600 MG4 5.56x45mm light machine guns from Heckler & Koch, will be purchased to cover emergency needs.

This has infuriated opposition parties, such as the 90 / Green Party and the Left Union, who claim nepotism and “turning poachers to rangers”. This is all the more surprising since purchases that begin in November of this year and end by the end of 2016 are certainly a smart move, given the current structure and logistics within the framework of the German armed forces.

In the end, soldiers serving on the ground in crisis regions will be able to use both of these types of weapons immediately, without spending time on a series of tests or other issues related to their deployment mission.

Promising candidates will replace HK G36


In the group of compact bullfight assault rifles, the Steyr AUG A3 caliber 5.56x45 is likely to be a favorite in retrofitting the German armed forces

Ursula von der Leyen (Ursula von der Leyen) bitterly stressed that the new machine - which is scheduled to be adopted from 2019 year - will be selected as part of an open, transparent tender.

It is worth noting here that Turkey became the first NATO member state to reintroduce the MPT76 rifle of the 7.62x51mm NATO caliber, instead of the more modern 5.56mm weapons.

Indeed, the new Turkish assault rifle bears a striking resemblance to the HK 417 of the same caliber.

If we assume that the German military is unlikely to initiate a general transition from the 5.56x45 caliber back to the 7.62x51mm NATO, the question remains as to which new 5.56mm assault rifles will be purchased as a replacement for the approximately 167,000 units of the HK G36 currently used by the Bundeswehr? This is one of those questions, like the one that says whether they can find a worthy alternative to assault rifles that are in service with NATO alliance partners.


Beretta ARX-160 is one of the modern representatives of traditional 5.56 assault rifles, in which the store is located in front of the trigger

France is also looking for a replacement for its veteran - the 5.56mm rifle according to the FAMAS bullpup scheme, and she has already initiated a tender for the purchase of assault rifles.

The UK's Enfield SA80, also in bullpup design, was commissioned to carry out upgrades and modifications at the Heckler & Koch plant.
Like their somewhat shaky counterparts from the United States, M16A4 / M4A1, both of these European weapons systems showed their weaknesses and, most likely, one place lower than the HK G36 in terms of handling and functional reliability. Thus, they are unlikely to become a viable alternative.


FN Herstal's Belgian FN SCAR family consists of modern assault rifles with a modular design.

If the plans include selecting a candidate from the world of compact assault rifles in the design of bull pap, more attractive arguments would be in favor of the Austrian assault rifle Steyr AUG A3, which will soon celebrate its 40 anniversary of intense military service and has already entered, for another reason, on the shortlist of the German armed forces, or in favor of the later Israeli assault rifle IWI Tavor TAR21.

But there are a lot of fish in the sea, so even traditionally built modern assault rifles with shops located in front of the trigger can be interesting options.

They will include the following marks (in alphabetical order, without claims for completeness): Beretta ARX-160, Remington Defense / Bushmaster ACR, Caracal 816S (more famous in Germany variants of the Haenel CR223 self-loading civilian weapons), CZ 805 BREN A1, FN SCAR, SIG MCX or Steyr STM 556.

It goes without saying that this group should not overlook the HK416 A5 (pseudonym G38), which the American and German elite units are already successfully using and which is currently one of the hottest contenders for the replacement of the M4 in the US armed forces.


Remington Defense Adaptive Combat Rifle (ACR) with modular design



CZ 805 BREN A1 caliber 5.56x45mm NATO from the Czech Republic


There are still no clear instructions on how to choose a successor to HK G36, but we hope that this article and the background knowledge that it contains, has introduced our readers to the course of the matter and gave a high rating, quoting the press and political debates how this issue is developing.


We also introduced the innovative SIG MCX multi-gauge assault rifle through its pace



Also alternative to HK G36: SIG Sauer MCX


We will keep you abreast of this story, watching how it unfolds.
Originator:
https://www.all4shooters.com
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  1. corporal
    corporal 18 October 2015 06: 16 New
    17
    Overheated Kalash also "spit", so what?
    Some kind of undercover fuss in the military department. IMHO
    However, to hell with them.
    1. Pimply
      Pimply 18 October 2015 09: 31 New
      21
      Quote: Corporal
      Overheated Kalash also "spit", so what?
      Some kind of undercover fuss in the military department. IMHO
      However, to hell with them.

      Just another fight for a major contract
      1. Aleks28
        Aleks28 18 October 2015 12: 20 New
        +6
        Quote: Pimply
        Just another fight for a major contract

        No, the rifle is actually very good. a lot of problems. There will be a complete replacement. This news and not news at all. Revealed more than a year ago. The main problem is the constantly stray sight (this was already said by the soldiers)
        1. the47th
          the47th 24 October 2015 00: 22 New
          +1
          This is not a reason to remove weapons from armament. Such problems are solved by finalizing production technology. H&K either had a big fight with the Bundeswehr, or one of the competitors lobbied for the rejection of the G36.
      2. Sasha 19871987
        Sasha 19871987 18 October 2015 14: 34 New
        +2
        several years ago I read about g36, that the barrel is very hot and therefore the accuracy is not to hell ... everything got a legitimate finale, ideally it is necessary to close the officials who fired a crude rifle into the troops ...
        1. Baron pardus
          Baron pardus 24 September 2020 01: 26 New
          0
          HK worked to the specified specifications. By weight, by muzzle velocity (depending on barrel length), accuracy by series of 5 and 10 rounds, by reliability. And UNDER THE GIVEN SPECIFICATIONS HC made an excellent rifle. Roughly the same way as Lagg-3, BT-7, T-26, and other guns were made under the GIVEN SPECIFICATIONS. What the generals ordered the manufacturer did. HC is no exception. But to save weight, they lightened the barrel (There is nothing more to lighten, the body is already plastic, and the bolt is dumb to lighten). And if so, it quickly heats up in automatic firing mode. There are no miracles. Physics cannot be fooled. G36 is an excellent rifle for the POLICE (when they shoot rarely and little, but they always carry it around).
    2. avt
      avt 18 October 2015 09: 52 New
      10
      Quote: Corporal
      Overheated Kalash also "spit", so what?

      And then the main question is WHEN will it overheat?
    3. Forest
      Forest 18 October 2015 12: 05 New
      +5
      Only G36 begin to do it earlier and accuracy rolls simply in 0.
    4. alexey garbuz
      alexey garbuz 18 October 2015 22: 25 New
      +2
      Could make a casing for water cooling and drag half a dozen of some water with you. Business!
  2. rope
    rope 18 October 2015 06: 21 New
    -6
    here hk 417 steep barrel all the commandos of the world take it even alpha
    1. Slobber
      Slobber 18 October 2015 08: 55 New
      +8
      Oh well, with the stock at low temperatures, you will be capricious. Similarly, all the same G36. It is worth mastering the Norwegian or Google translator to read the Norwegian reviews on 416. But 417's didn’t go a lot, no one needs the berdank in such a caliber.
      1. Pimply
        Pimply 18 October 2015 09: 32 New
        +4
        Quote: razgildyay
        Oh well, with the stock at low temperatures, you will be capricious. Similarly, all the same G36. It is worth mastering the Norwegian or Google translator to read the Norwegian reviews on 416. But 417's didn’t go a lot, no one needs the berdank in such a caliber.

        Yes, the Norwegians had a separate article on this subject. Well, it’s worth noting that the same Americans are getting rid of HK416
        1. Slobber
          Slobber 18 October 2015 10: 45 New
          +2
          I don’t know how to get rid of it, but I know for sure that the Marines limitedly accepted into service. Although it is possible that for unification. They often cooperate with Germans, Norwegians and Poles.
          In principle, the idea is stillborn. It is clear that TK is descending from the top, and designers are making berdanks under the conditions in which they themselves are. For a clean Europe, a fitting is just that. But then again, the M16 / M4 and the FN are more futuristic (I don’t remember the index) are run everywhere wherever possible, but the G36 isn’t, except in the Baltic states, it’s unlikely. It would be better to go broke and take Czechs or Poles - the idea is more thought out and much cheaper.
          And by the way, OBS, the Balts do not use the G36 exercises, but give out the composition to G3, which is what it says.
          1. avt
            avt 18 October 2015 11: 03 New
            +2
            Quote: razgildyay
            that the Marines limitedly adopted. Although it is possible that for unification.

            If memory serves me, this barrel was made in the fire order following the results of the Afghan special forces, that's what really happened - I don’t know.
          2. PSih2097
            PSih2097 18 October 2015 12: 24 New
            +1
            Quote: razgildyay
            FN-futuristic (I do not remember the index)

            F2000 ...
            1. Slobber
              Slobber 18 October 2015 12: 53 New
              0
              No, not her. Remembered FN SCAR. It looks like Beretta, and with it sets the style for the rest - Czechs and Poles.
            2. Izotovp
              Izotovp 18 October 2015 21: 51 New
              +2
              Beautiful, but the Belgians complain that they almost never buy it, and SCAR diverges with a bang.
        2. gross kaput
          gross kaput 18 October 2015 11: 26 New
          +2
          Quote: Pimply
          Well, it’s worth noting that the same Americans are getting rid of HK416

          Or maybe it’s worth noting that in the United States Commission on HK416 adopted under the symbol M27 IAR to replace the M249 SAW in the department?
    2. Vivat
      Vivat 18 October 2015 10: 58 New
      +1
      Sorry, I put "-" by mistake.
    3. tracer
      tracer 18 October 2015 15: 23 New
      +4
      Yes, of course, Alpha chooses the H&K 417 to seem even cooler. Likely still on a selfie fotka along with a morning salad and spreads in networks. wink
    4. tracer
      tracer 18 October 2015 15: 23 New
      +1
      Yes, of course, Alpha chooses the H&K 417 to seem even cooler. Likely still on a selfie fotka along with a morning salad and spreads in networks. wink
    5. Good me
      Good me 18 October 2015 15: 52 New
      +3
      Quote: rope
      here hk 417 steep barrel all the commandos of the world take it even alpha

      Maybe Ukrainian ...
      1. gross kaput
        gross kaput 18 October 2015 17: 07 New
        +2
        they can’t afford it. laughing
      2. rope
        rope 20 October 2015 12: 56 New
        0
        not Ukrainian but yours
  3. Sergey-8848
    Sergey-8848 18 October 2015 07: 00 New
    14
    The meaning of the article is understandable - the change of arms is most likely caused by political and financial motives, and not by fighting qualities. But the translation !!! Apparently, the program translated, and the authors then forgot to attach a hand to editing. This is rare and on labels now read.
    1. Grizli-666
      Grizli-666 18 October 2015 07: 42 New
      17
      Quote: Sergey-8848
      But the translation !!! Apparently, the program translated, and the authors then forgot to attach a hand to editing


      I agree, especially pleased with this signature "No one could have guessed that for the first stage of World War II, German soldiers would be called upon to use the HK G 36 when the weapon was introduced in 1997"
      Either there was an eyelid and meant the third world, or we are talking about a time machine (then the surprise is understandable :))
  4. tchoni
    tchoni 18 October 2015 07: 33 New
    11
    Damn, perevo, a feeling that washed ... And without treatment. For this tatya minus. The advantage of the article is that it clearly shows, "that not everything is ok in the kingdoms of Europe." What are there and grabbers and thieves in commodity quantities. In general: novice liberals - it is worth reading! -)
    As for the screw cutter itself, it seems to me that the value of accurate long-range shooting from an assault rifle is somewhat exaggerated by Western colleagues. For sniper fire there are special support systems. Well, God be their judge. Let them jump, and we'll see if it was worth it.
    1. forwarder
      forwarder 18 October 2015 09: 17 New
      -8
      The Beretta ARX-160 is one of the modern representatives of traditional 5.56 assault rifles

      All European classification ONLY by cartridge power is stupid in principle. Based on it, it turns out that the AK-47 and AK-74 (or M16A2), for example, are assault rifles. Those. weapons of the same class. What is fundamentally wrong is a weapon of completely different classes.
      The AK-47 is a typical assault rifle. In all respects.
      AK-74 (and M16A2) is an advanced automatic rifle. Using a small-caliber cartridge of a new generation.
      Americans are right in the weapon classification system, not Europeans. Therefore, their M16A2 is not officially called Assault rifle, as journalists write, but Automatic rifle. Which is absolutely true and correctly reflects the essence of this weapon.
      In addition, you can still remember Tommy-gun. Which only in Europe because of the pistol cartridge was called a submachine gun. And in the USA it was called a submachine gun. Which roughly means "small machine gun". And this name quite accurately meant the essence of Tommy-gun. Which in its performance characteristics NEVER WAS a submachine gun. And comparing its performance characteristics with the performance characteristics of European PP is simply stupid. These are weapons of completely different classes, but on pistol cartridges. Which gave the Europeans reason to consider them classmates.
      Exactly the same "awkwardness" among the Europeans was organized with weapons on the classic intermediate and new small-caliber intermediate cartridges. The weapon is, as it were, formally the same, but in terms of performance characteristics they are completely different. The trouble.
      1. Bradypodidae
        Bradypodidae 18 October 2015 10: 21 New
        +3
        If we use the European classification, then the machine gun "Maxim" (Russian) is not a machine gun at all, but a rifle-machine gun, since it shoots rifle cartridges. So?
        1. forwarder
          forwarder 18 October 2015 11: 19 New
          -12
          Quote: Bradypodidae
          machine gun "Maxim" (Russian) is not a machine gun at all, but a rifle-machine gun

          Why do you think so? Typical easel machine gun. Only unsuccessful (due to water cooling), which was excusable even at the time of 1MB. Fighting stability is close to zero.
          What kind of submachine gun is that?
      2. k_ply
        k_ply 18 October 2015 10: 54 New
        +3
        forwarder (aka Fleent and otch), reluctance to repeat, but your nonsense about assault and automatic was already there (your moderator cleared it up):
        http://topwar.ru/78551-ppsh-legenda-velikoy-otechestvennoy-voyny.html
        although you have followers here (?!).
      3. gross kaput
        gross kaput 18 October 2015 11: 29 New
        +6
        Quote: forwarder
        forwarder

        I don’t understand what is your aggravation? you already got it - you get banned, you climb again with a new nickname - aren't you tired of it yourself?
        1. forwarder
          forwarder 18 October 2015 12: 28 New
          -10
          Quote: gross kaput
          I don’t understand what is your aggravation?

          Who's that? Clown assistant Are you an assistant at k_ply? Or maybe you and k_ply are the same person? Very similar.
      4. forwarder
        forwarder 18 October 2015 12: 14 New
        -5
        Quote: k_ply
        forwarder (aka Fleent and otch), reluctance to repeat, but your nonsense about assault and automatic

        Who are you? Local clown?
      5. The comment was deleted.
    2. dumkopff
      dumkopff 18 October 2015 14: 26 New
      +1
      Indeed, the disgusting quality of the text.
  5. Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 18 October 2015 08: 52 New
    +4
    In the order of delirium. They should also consider AK 12. wassat
    That's how his concern advertised. And the Israeli "Tavor" is also very nice.
  6. forwarder
    forwarder 18 October 2015 08: 57 New
    -17
    The trend towards small low-pulse calibers

    I'm wondering what ... my uncle came up with this crap called "low impulse" on the Internet?
    The new generation of small-caliber cartridges is completely different from this. This difference is completely insignificant.
    The main difference between small-caliber cartridges of the new generation is a completely different principle of action of their bullets. They behave differently in the victim's body. It is from this that they are what they are. And "low impulse" is just a side effect of new bullets. As well as reducing the power of the cartridge.
    1. k_ply
      k_ply 18 October 2015 10: 11 New
      15
      The designation "low-impulse" appeared not with the Internet, but much earlier, with the advent of 5.56x45 mm and 5.45x39 mm cartridges, and the meaning of the word "low-impulse" lies in relation to recoil, not wound ballistics. Although, yes! for you, the History of the World began only after your birth, in other words, with the widespread consumption of the Internet in the Russian Federation.
      forwarderalready under a new nickname? were previously Fleent и otch, and again you are recognizing nonsense.
    2. gross kaput
      gross kaput 18 October 2015 11: 37 New
      +9
      Quote: forwarder
      forwarder

      For deer, I explain the runway that is characteristic of all munitions that have supersonic speed, while small-bullets are not record-breakers for these indicators, and the loss of stability in the carcass is also not unusual - back in the 50s it was experimentally established that the standard bullet 7,62 , 39X10 from a distance of 5 m passing through the soft tissue of the thigh XNUMX cm from the bone leads to a comminuted fracture (consider destruction) of the femur, and when it enters the frontal projection of the carcass, it goes asshole. So learn materiel or dump on the forum of fans of coip. games and alternative stories.
      1. provincial
        provincial 18 October 2015 11: 47 New
        +2
        cool written. All I went here are some small arms experts gathered.
      2. forwarder
        forwarder 18 October 2015 12: 06 New
        -9
        Quote: gross kaput
        For the deer I explain the runway

        Deer? Explains? I read, I read.
        I read it. No, that’s not even funny.
        Quote: gross kaput
        and once in the frontal projection of the carcass, he goes ass.

        You, my dear, look in a book, and you see what is usually there. A combination of three fingers. Human, not a mammoth. He has "carcasses" of such a thickness that classic bullets have never needed. And it won't.
        Therefore, a bullet of a new principle of action was applied. To achieve the desired effect, it was necessary to make it small-caliber. And to ensure a normal effective range, there was enough power (only power, there is nothing more in common between them) of the classic intermediate cartridge. One with an effective effective range. And only then, under the parasitic energy of this cartridge (it is less than that of a rifle cartridge) a heat sink was made.
        And about the return, which turned out, such and good. This is a concomitant effect. Even the return of a rifle cartridge is considered acceptable. Especially those with light bullets. Or what, all handbrake and uniform in this option are no good? Have you tried to think before writing something? Give it a try. And then, look funny.
        Nifiga local hamovite throats do not know. Just trouble with this internet. Filled with continuous fables.
        Try to read first, then think, and then write. Maybe something sensible then write.
        Quote: gross kaput
        So learn materiel or dump on the forum of fans of coip. games and alternative history

        Here. This is just a piece of advice to "specialists" of your level.
        1. dvina71
          dvina71 18 October 2015 14: 56 New
          +4
          Quote: forwarder
          And about the return, which turned out, such and good. This is a concomitant effect.


          Wow .. someone skipped physics at school .. I explain .. the impulse of "recoil" is equal to the product of the mass of the bullet by its initial velocity. however, a smaller caliber bullet weighs less, which means it has a low impulse, relative to the previous larger caliber bullet in this weapon system.
          As for the behavior of the bullet in the body .. I assure you .. she does not make trips to parts of the body, but always moves in a straight line. It can change direction if, for example, its speed in the body is not enough to pierce a bone, it will either break it or rebound and change its direction of movement, but this means that the bullet has already lost its energy and will stop soon.
          With these bullets "with a displaced center" so many legends walk around .., and the weight of illiteracy .. technical.
          1. marshes
            marshes 18 October 2015 15: 12 New
            +1
            Quote: dvina71
            As for the behavior of the bullet in the body .. I assure you .. she does not make trips to parts of the body, but always moves in a straight line. It can change direction if, for example, its speed in the body is not enough to pierce a bone, it will either break it or rebound and change its direction of movement, but this means that the bullet has already lost its energy and will stop soon.

            I agree with you.
            Although there is such a barrel, a sawn-off shotgun, the Ksenia-AKS-74u, at close distances up to 50 m, is a terrible thing. In the morgue, bullets are taken out for a rather long time. And the car shot at close range of 30-20 m. Elongated triangles, there was not a large angle .Just imagine what is going on in the "meat". Maybe a short barrel of wine in it.
          2. forwarder
            forwarder 18 October 2015 16: 05 New
            -7
            Do you understand Russian? Do you understand what I wrote? It is seen that no.
            Quote: dvina71
            I explain ..

            This is you explain to primary school students. I do not need. I myself can explain a lot to you on this subject.
            Quote: dvina71
            the same bullet of a smaller caliber weighs less, which means it is low-impulse, relative to the previous bullet of a larger caliber

            For the 138th time I explain that it is "low-impulse" only on the Internet on sites of this kind. The strength of her impulse never interested anyone. And will not be interested in the future. Because this indicator is absolutely not interesting to anyone. except for the "couch strategists".
            Quote: dvina71
            she does not travel in parts of the body, but always moves in a straight line.

            You are so unsure of this, it does not always happen. In addition, even when it moves in a straight line, it moves in this direction in different ways. It is in this chip small-caliber bullets of the new generation.
            Quote: dvina71
            but this means that the bullet has already lost its energy and will stop soon

            One of the main characteristics of a bullet is its ability to transmit a final impulse to the body in the shortest amount of time. Those. stop as fast as possible. And here the classic bullets of the new small-caliber are not competitors. When hunting animals, expansive bullets are used to achieve this effect. Exactly for the same purpose. According to this ability, new small-caliber bullets are located between expansive and ordinary classical (old) ones.
            1. dvina71
              dvina71 18 October 2015 16: 35 New
              0
              Quote: forwarder
              One of the main characteristics of a bullet is its ability to transmit a final impulse to the body in the shortest amount of time. Those. stop as fast as possible.


              Taki with physics strained .. USE?
              The bullet does not transmit an impulse .. but energy .. The very one that she received from the burnt gunpowder in the barrel. Minus delivery losses ..
              And again .. Bullet .. I am usually a bullet .. in the body does not tumble, it's a legend. It changes the direction of movement and orientation only when it encounters an obstacle in its path, in the human body it is a bone.
              I understand where the legs of your delusion grow from ...
              NU so the displaced center is the displaced center of mass of the bullet. It is usually pushed forward. This stabilizes the bullet in flight. This is true for small caliber bullets, due to size and weight. In the body, this bullet simply changes orientation MEETING an obstacle - a bone. Through a homogeneous mass, it will pass just like an ordinary bullet.
              1. gross kaput
                gross kaput 18 October 2015 17: 46 New
                +2
                Quote: dvina71
                Through a homogeneous mass, it will pass just like an ordinary bullet.

                And such a simple idea as - why do we need rifling in the trunk - never occurred to you? well, then I’ll answer you that the bullet stabilizes in flight by rotation, but when it enters a more dense environment than air, the rotation speed becomes already insufficient for stable stabilization and the bullet starts to rotate, the main difference between only the paths traveled in the tissues - the higher the transverse load of the bullet and the smaller the margin of stability, the faster and more energetically it begins to rotate. we look at the picture - the upper channel 7,62X39 57-H-231 lower 5,45X39 7H6 7,62 starts to rotate in the simulator after 7 cm and 5,45 after 5 and rotates more intensively - at a hundred meters through 14 cm of the wound channel, the nutation angle ( the deviation of the longitudinal axis of the bullet with respect to the trajectory of motion) in 5,45 is 120 g and in 7,62 35 g.
                The greatest damage at short ranges is caused by 5,56 M855 bullets - but this is not due to "low impulse" but to the design of the bullet itself, which is deformed and fragmented with the creation of secondary damaging elements, the modern M193 in this respect is much more humane and differs little from our 5,45 but the main thing is that as a result of the experiments, one interesting conclusion was made - In experiments with gunshot wounds of the extremities, it was found that Russian and American small-caliber bullets inflicted more severe damage to the skin and soft tissues compared to 7,62 mm bullets. The entrance openings on the skin during wounds by small-caliber bullets were usually smaller in size or corresponded to the diameter of the bullet; the exit openings were most often large, irregularly oval or polygonal in shape with tears along the edges. In wounds with both small-caliber and 7,62 mm bullets, multi-fragmented fractures of long tubular bones of the extremities with an extensive bone defect along the PC and numerous cracks were quite close in severity. Gunshot fractures caused by small-caliber bullets were complicated, as a rule, by fragmentation of bullets.
                1. dvina71
                  dvina71 18 October 2015 18: 05 New
                  -5
                  Quote: gross kaput
                  And such a simple thought as - why rifling in the trunk is needed - didn’t occur to you

                  To stabilize ..
                  The pictures that you posted are not a network of human tissue - this is the time.
                  Two .. People with 15 cm of continuous uniform fabric .. well, you need to look for it ..
                  Three .. destruction at the exit is not related to rotation. These are the consequences of a water hammer. A bullet passing through mass creates tremendous pressure at a small point, as a result, the fabric explodes at this point.
                  Four .. Overcoming 100m to the target, clothing, personal protection .. the bullet will no longer have enough energy for such destruction .. I mean 5.45 .. For 12.7 this is not a problem at all and the exit hole there will be measured in tens of cm.
                  1. gross kaput
                    gross kaput 18 October 2015 18: 08 New
                    +2
                    Quote: dvina71
                    Three .. destruction at the exit is not related to rotation.

                    The expansion of the cavity is the beginning of the bullet’s turn - because otherwise the entrance hole would be the same size - I don’t see anything else to comment on because I have to write and explain too much - for those interested in the topic there are now fully accessible materials, but there’s no sense in passing by spend.
                2. Baron pardus
                  Baron pardus 24 September 2020 01: 34 New
                  0
                  By the way, look at the scumbag of a liberal in Kenosha who was chasing a boy with a pistol (by the way, this "fighter for social justice" was with a felony record, that is, he had no right to own a pistol, let alone wave it in the street during looting), and the boy fired at him from the M4 and hit the biceps. The biceps went to hell. Completely. Nice shot, kid.
              2. forwarder
                forwarder 18 October 2015 18: 00 New
                -3
                Quote: dvina71
                The bullet does not transmit momentum .., but energy.

                She transfers this energy for a certain period of time. This is called impulse, literacy.
                Quote: dvina71
                Bullet .. I am usually a bullet .. in the body does not tumble, it's a legend.

                I wrote about this to you. About the classic bullet. She would tumble, gelatin tests confirm this. But there is no piece of meat of this thickness. Therefore, does not have time. A new small-caliber, in time. Specially done.
                Quote: dvina71
                Through a homogeneous mass, it will pass just like an ordinary bullet.

                Gelatin is a homogeneous mass. But all the bullets in it are tumbling. If the gelatin block is thick enough.
                So, to make it easier for you to understand, I slightly cut the well-known tablet from the Internet. In war, the maximum thickness of the ham is somewhere around 15 cm (this is where it is cut off). And the usual one, 10 cm (number 10 from the bottom). Now look what bullets of different models make on this thickness. Bullets No. 2 and 4, the usual classic, classic. Bullet number 1, a new small-caliber. A bullet number 3, expansive. Is the principle of their action clear now?
                1. dvina71
                  dvina71 18 October 2015 18: 14 New
                  -1
                  Quote: forwarder
                  Gelatin, it's a homogeneous mass

                  Gelatin is not human flesh. They are similar only in density, but human flesh consists of water, which absorbs part of the energy of a bullet.

                  Quote: forwarder
                  She transfers this energy for a certain period of time. This is called impulse, literacy.

                  In physics, you are two .. Momentum is the product of mass and speed of movement .. which of the quantities is measured by the Juols here?
                  A bullet transfers energy to the body, which depends on the mass of the bullet and the loss of speed in the body .. This is the danger of an expansive bullet, that it immediately loses speed in the body, killing it already. A pointed bullet can simply go through the body and a person will continue to run, shoot ..
                  1. forwarder
                    forwarder 18 October 2015 18: 24 New
                    -2
                    Quote: dvina71
                    Gelatin is not human flesh. They are similar only in density, but human flesh consists of water, which absorbs part of the energy of a bullet.

                    Do not fantasize.
                    Quote: dvina71
                    from the mass of the bullet and the loss of speed in the body

                    So you can guess how the bullets lose this speed. And what do the designers of these bullets do with them for this. You will be surprised, but there are such people. And the bullets are not "how it goes". They are of this special design.
                    Quote: dvina71
                    That is the danger of an expansive bullet, that it immediately loses speed in the body, killing it already

                    See nameplate. Especially for you posted.
                    Quote: dvina71
                    A pointed bullet can simply go through the body and a person will continue to run, shoot ..

                    Yes? Who would have thought ...
                  2. The comment was deleted.
                2. forwarder
                  forwarder 18 October 2015 18: 20 New
                  -1
                  Strange, the picture has gone somewhere.
                  In war, the maximum thickness of the ham is somewhere around 15 cm (this is where it is cut off). And the usual one, 10 cm (number 10 from the bottom). Now look what bullets of different models make on this thickness. Bullets No. 2 and 4, the usual classic, classic. Bullet number 1, a new small-caliber. A bullet number 3, expansive. Is the principle of their action clear now?
                3. The comment was deleted.
                4. Assistant
                  Assistant 18 October 2015 22: 15 New
                  +1
                  She transfers this energy for a certain period of time. This is called impulse, literacy.


                  Suddenly, momentum is the product of mass and speed. And time has nothing to do with it.
                  A bullet does not transmit an impulse to the body. The real world is not theoretical mechanics, but a bullet and a target - not two absolutely elastic bodies. If the bullet transmitted an impulse, then the target’s carcass would not be damaged, but would fly back at high speed.
                  And the bullet just does not have to transmit all its momentum to the target. It should transfer only part of its energy to the carcass of the target in the form of kinetic, which will allow the target to tip over to the ground. Moreover, this is most important for police and civilian weapons, where the contact distance is 5-30 meters.
                  A military bullet, on the contrary, should first of all produce plastic deformation in the target with the maximum possible destruction of its organs.
                  So the bullet should primarily transmit not just an impulse, but energy.

                  A new small-caliber, in time. Specially done.


                  Just the new small-caliber bullets are made so as to reduce the damaging effect due to its turn / deformation / rupture. And the reason is never in philanthropy: a modern bullet must first break through a bulletproof vest, which means - it is based on a heavy and durable core. You will be able to invent a bullet that first gives the body armor the minimum amount of its energy, passing through it, and then gives its energy to the body to the maximum - get rich. Just do not forget that the bullet should be small and cheap.
                  1. forwarder
                    forwarder 18 October 2015 23: 58 New
                    -1
                    Quote: Assistant
                    Suddenly, momentum is the product of mass and speed. And time has nothing to do with it.

                    And how. For a momentum of power.
                    Quote: Assistant
                    A bullet does not transmit an impulse to the body.

                    A bullet transfers energy to the body. And the faster she does it, the worse for the body.
                    Quote: Assistant
                    It should transfer only part of its energy to the carcass of the target in the form of kinetic, which will allow the target to tip over to the ground.

                    Yes? Really? Just like that, suddenly, I learn something new for myself.
                    Quote: Assistant
                    Moreover, this is most important for police and civilian weapons, where the contact distance is 5-30 meters.

                    What, civilian weapons can knock someone over to the ground? Can you name such a civilian weapon? Do you know the limitations of this weapon? It seems to me that no.
                    Quote: Assistant
                    Military bullet

                    I liked the term itself. A bullet, she knows what it is, military or civilian?
                    Quote: Assistant
                    First of all, it must produce plastic deformation with the maximum possible destruction of its organs.

                    Did you come up with this yourself? How long has it been? A "war bullet", as you have deigned to put it, must at a certain distance transmit to the body, for a certain period of time, critical energy for this body. It is the same for an elephant as for a squirrel. Only the values ​​are different. Bullets "work" best because they quickly lose speed and stop. They are less likely to get through. And this is marriage.
                    Quote: Assistant
                    to reduce the damaging effect due to its turn / deformation / gap

                    PPC. Due to the reversal, such a bullet is more effectively braked. Because its cross-sectional area sharply increases. And sharper transfers its energy to the body. This is the main task of such a reversal. This is an effect similar to the effect of an expansive bullet, but is achieved in a different way. And tears and deformations are a concomitant effect. Useful in this case.
                    Well, then there is uninteresting blah blah blah on free themes.
                    1. Assistant
                      Assistant 19 October 2015 01: 17 New
                      +1
                      And how. For a momentum of power.


                      This would be if there had not been a transition of energy from one species to another. The theorem on the change in the momentum of the system (the theorem on the conservation of momentum in a school-like way) works only in the case of an ideal system in which the energy is only kinetic. In all other cases, the more general energy conservation law works.

                      What, civilian weapons can knock someone over to the ground? Can you name such a civilian weapon? Do you know the limitations of this weapon? It seems to me that no.


                      Dear forwarder, are you sure that you will remain on your feet after getting a quick pair in your chest from a .40SW caliber pistol with an HP bullet from 10 meters? To hell with him to run to the offender, just stand on his feet?
                      I just think that I can’t stand it. So I won’t check on myself.

                      This is an effect similar to the effect of an expansive bullet, but is achieved in a different way. And tears and deformations are a concomitant effect. Useful in this case.


                      Yeah, the ammunition developers don’t know ...
                      Compare the size of the cavity in the head of the ammunition bullet 7H6 (1974), 7H10 (1992), 7H22 (1998). The backfill question: why was it maximal in the 1974 pool (therefore, all the joys of crushing it in the carcass and shifting the center of gravity back), and in 1998 is it generally filled with lead?

                      Well, then there is uninteresting blah blah blah on free themes.


                      Hey, employees of the General Staff! You are in your offices with foolishness, do not listen to the forwarder, but he just expressed a brilliant idea on the forum topwar! The bulletproof vest is a little interesting blah blah blah! Well, quickly remove all body armor from the troops!
                      And when developing weapons and ammunition, bulletproof vests are not taken into account, forwarder said.
                      1. forwarder
                        forwarder 19 October 2015 09: 11 New
                        -2
                        Quote: Assistant
                        This would be if there had not been a transition of energy from one species to another. The theorem on the change in the momentum of the system (the theorem on the conservation of momentum in a school-like way) works only in the case of an ideal system,

                        Oh how everything is up and running.
                        Quote: Assistant
                        Are you sure that you will remain on your feet,

                        You still remember about the club. We are talking about small arms. So, if you please, operate with civilian small arms. Remind his numbers or find yourself on the Internet?
                        Quote: Assistant
                        Yeah, the ammunition developers don’t know ...

                        Those. You want to tell me that everyone massively switched to such bullets by accident? How are you feeling? You are a strange person. The USSR, he even rejoined weapons with such cartridges from scratch, and this is very expensive. Also by accident?
                        Quote: Assistant
                        Body armor is an uninteresting blah blah blah!

                        What bulletproof vest? I ask again, are you inside?
                        Quote: Assistant
                        And when developing weapons and ammunition, bulletproof vests are not taken into account, forwarder said.

                        Ahhhhhh, now I understand what you're leading to. Another gossip from the Internet. Allegedly, that a small-caliber bullet has better penetrating ability, so everyone switched to it.
                        I thought I already had all the gossip expressed. But he suddenly realized that he was wrong. I even managed to forget about this gossip, it’s so ridiculous. There is nothing to even comment on. I am not going to comment on deliberate nonsense.
                        The bullet is small-caliber, but not classic. And her final energy is small.
                      2. gross kaput
                        gross kaput 19 October 2015 11: 10 New
                        0
                        Quote: Assistant
                        The backfill question: why was it maximal in the 1974 pool (therefore, all the joys of crushing it in the carcass and shifting the center of gravity back), and in 1998 is it generally filled with lead?

                        The developers then just know, and what’s characteristic is not how they connect it with the destructive ability in relation to the carcass and penetration
            2. dvina71
              dvina71 18 October 2015 16: 42 New
              +1
              Expansive bullets .. They do not just kill a vital organ, like a standard bullet. It causes a) a severe pain shock (this alone can kill) b) a severe hydroblow, having fallen into the region of a vital organ, this bullet will not even reach him, but will break it with a hydroblow.
              1. forwarder
                forwarder 18 October 2015 17: 32 New
                -5
                Quote: dvina71
                e just damaging a vital organ like a standard bullet

                Yeah Learn the theory. This is common to all bullets. One to a smaller (classic), another to a slightly larger (new small-caliber), and the third to the greatest extent (expansive).
                A cartridge whose bullet does not cause all of the "charms" described by you is incapacitated. And should be used for hunting smaller animals. To determine the suitability of a cartridge for each type of "living creature", the concept of "effective range" is used.
                It can be 0 m. Then they say that the cartridge for hunting this living creature is not suitable. Because he can destroy living creatures only in the manner described by you, i.e. getting into a vital center. And this is an element of luck.
                Next are conditionally suitable ammo conditionally (for ersatz weapons). Animals they are likely to destroy. But at reduced distances.
                Next are suitable cartridges. The best option, on such cartridges you can create a balanced high-quality weapon.
                And then go cartridges of excess power. You can hunt, but like a cannon on sparrows.
                Clear? Each living creature has its own cartridge with its own bullet. And then go out hunting for a tiger with AK-47, you will get into it 30 times, and he will be offended and will punish you. It doesn’t hurt. One and all.
                1. dvina71
                  dvina71 18 October 2015 17: 43 New
                  +2
                  Quote: forwarder
                  Yeah Learn the theory

                  Know the practice .. you are our theorist ..
                  An ordinary pointed bullet can pass through a person’s body and not cause his death, and even this most often happens. We look at the statistics of the dead / wounded.
                  An expansive bullet will kill without causing a mortal wound.
                  I assure you .. with a horn AK a white bear dies .. and this is not your striped pussy.
                  1. forwarder
                    forwarder 18 October 2015 18: 29 New
                    -4
                    Quote: dvina71
                    An expansive bullet will kill without causing a mortal wound

                    This is a "strong expression". By the power of thought, perhaps?
                    Quote: dvina71
                    I assure you .. with a horn AK a white bear dies .. and this is not your striped pussy

                    You know better. Probably.
                    Quote: dvina71
                    An ordinary pointed bullet can pass through a person’s body and not cause his death, and even this most often happens.

                    But what about the Nagan? There the bullet is blunt, and also did not kill very much.
              2. Baron pardus
                Baron pardus 24 September 2020 01: 41 New
                0
                Not necessary. For example, the British, when Doom Doom bullets were banned for use in combat, noticed that if you make a bullet with the center of gravity shifted back, it will tumble in the tissues. Which was done with the 303 British cartridge. Moreover, the British noticed that bullets with a lightweight nose gave out greater accuracy at long distances. And the British were the FIRST, EMNIP who noticed and did it all. https://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-37-the-deadly-303-british-and-the-box-o-truth/
      3. forwarder
        forwarder 18 October 2015 18: 59 New
        -3
        Quote: gross kaput
        goes ass

        Here, one can immediately see an educated person. Very scientifically expressed. Is it appropriate to use expressions like "come out with a shit" in this case? And when they say, "I have a shit," does it mean something like "they shot at me"?
    3. forwarder
      forwarder 18 October 2015 12: 22 New
      -6
      Quote: k_ply
      The history of the world began only after your birth,

      It seems some kind of inadequate. From such decent people you need to stay away.
      Quote: k_ply
      the meaning of the word "low impulse" lies in relation to recoil

      So what? Is this a reason to assert that such cartridges were made for the sake of "little recoil"? No, you're just some "cowboy Terenty". Lover of hip shooting. Better you, Terenty, kept quiet. And then minors read you. They can also believe in your fairy tales. About "special weapons for cowboys". Read it, I briefly and schematically described a little higher how such a weapon was made. The educational program will be small for you. You need.
      1. dokusib
        dokusib 19 October 2015 06: 41 New
        0
        Forwarder just shot from nothing but a slingshot
  7. igordok
    igordok 18 October 2015 09: 29 New
    +1
    A little off topic, but connected. Why complicate the good.
    1. dvina71
      dvina71 18 October 2015 15: 04 New
      +2
      This is an attempt to reduce returns in the Kalashnikov system. One of the impulses, and a significant one, is associated with the operation of the gas mechanism. The massive shutter and piston make non-frail journeys at high speed, which causes the instability of the whole machine, but provides tremendous reliability.
      So, changing the bolt mechanism in AK, we get no longer AK .., but some garbage in his guise.
      In Izhevsk, they took a different approach, they left the shutter and automation almost unchanged, but around this they built a shell, which should reduce and compensate for the impulses of the bolt group.
  8. voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 18 October 2015 10: 18 New
    +5
    The Americans are going to replace the M4 with the G38 (Heckler & Koch HK416).
    Colt is on the verge of bankruptcy because of this.
    It is logical for the Germans to take it as well - G38. Production will become mass -
    by two armies, the cost price will decrease.
    1. Bradypodidae
      Bradypodidae 18 October 2015 10: 37 New
      +6
      America will not make G38 at German factories. Most likely it will build a new factory at home. And where is the cost reduction? Germany will produce G38 for its army at America’s factories? Then yes, the cost will decrease. But in general this whole story is very muddy. Excellent weapon They’ll send them to the scrap. If it were with us, I would understand. But in Germany ... Someone is high there bent and not one.
      1. PSih2097
        PSih2097 18 October 2015 12: 30 New
        +2
        Quote: Bradypodidae
        America will not make the G38 in German factories. Most likely will build a new plant at home.

        I agree, it will be the same as with FN - FN Herstal - FNH USA Inc, which SCAR mumbles.
      2. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh 18 October 2015 14: 12 New
        +7
        for Bradypodidae:
        "Great weapons are sent for scrap" ///

        I agree with you. Long burst shooting
        from personal weapons - a stupid undertaking. If you could not get
        single or cut-offs, then the queue will not save.
        Only ammo is wasted.
        For firing bursts there are machine guns. The same Wehrmacht
        combining the accurate 5-shot Mauser and the MG 34 machine gun,
        tactical advantage.
        We have solved this problem radically: shooting with bursts is strictly
        is prohibited. Only "two singles" or "cutoff three".
        From 1948 to the present smile .
        1. korol yasheriz
          korol yasheriz 18 October 2015 16: 35 New
          +4
          Quote: voyaka uh
          Long burst shooting
          from personal weapons - a stupid undertaking. If you could not get
          single or cut-offs, then the queue will not save.
          Only ammunition wasted

          Close that will save. Otherwise, why is the full-automatic mode on all machines? An evil line, if it doesn’t hit the enemy, will make him immediately retire somewhere, even underground smile
          1. sabakina
            sabakina 18 October 2015 18: 17 New
            +4
            Quote: voyaka uh
            for Bradypodidae:
            "Great weapons are sent for scrap" ///

            I agree with you. Long burst shooting
            from personal weapons - a stupid undertaking. If you could not get
            single or cut-offs, then the queue will not save.
            Only ammo is wasted.
            For firing bursts there are machine guns. The same Wehrmacht
            combining the accurate 5-shot Mauser and the MG 34 machine gun,
            tactical advantage.
            We have solved this problem radically: shooting with bursts is strictly
            is prohibited. Only "two singles" or "cutoff three".
            From 1948 to the present smile .

            I won’t know how PPSh and I with a magazine for 60 rounds drowned in Berlin?
            1. Bradypodidae
              Bradypodidae 18 October 2015 22: 52 New
              +1
              I won’t know how PPSh and I with a magazine for 60 rounds reached Berlin? [/ Quote]
              The main infantry weapon throughout the war, we had not the PPSh, but the Mosin rifle. Only during the war years more than 12 million pieces were produced, not counting 1250000 SVT-40. And there were also SVS, SVT-38, a carbine based on Mosinka .A PPSh made about 6 million.
        2. bunta
          bunta 18 October 2015 22: 18 New
          0
          Quote: voyaka uh
          We have solved this problem radically: shooting with bursts is strictly
          is prohibited. Only "two singles" or "cutoff three".


          Read Fedorov or Blagonravov, they talked about a short line for automatic weapons back in the 30 of the last century. Short burst shooting was practiced in the Soviet army always.
          "Strict ban" is the Western stereotype of "working by standards." To some extent, it works. But an experienced fighter decides for himself in a specific situation how to fight. Single or short bursts.
          1. voyaka uh
            voyaka uh 19 October 2015 10: 51 New
            0
            "But an experienced fighter decides for himself in a particular situation how to fight. Single or short burst." ////

            Short queue in the nervous conditions of the battle is very difficult
            practically complete unfortunately. Even a soldier
            experienced in shootouts. If the weapon is exposed
            on "automatic", then the finger, alas, "sticks" to the trigger
            to the hook. I came across this myself when I was a machine gunner.
            I did not believe it when the tape of 250 rounds ran out.
            It seemed - he shot a little bit ... But this is a turret, where
            a lot of ammunition boxes.
            And in the field of cartridges run out - there will be no others. And n ... c. Therefore,
            shoot aiming single, here is my advice good .
        3. Assistant
          Assistant 18 October 2015 22: 41 New
          +2
          The same Wehrmacht, combining the accurate 5-shot Mauser and the MG 34 machine gun, sought
          tactical advantage.


          Suddenly, by the middle of the Second World War, he realized what stupidity he had done, but it was too late.
          By 1943, he admitted this to himself and honestly tried to fundamentally change this concept, transferring troops to a new individual weapon that made each soldier a fighter, and not a cog in guarding machine gunners. He requested for each fighter an automatic weapon under an intermediate cartridge with an effective combat range of up to 300 meters. But a misfortune happened: the great Hugo Schmeiser constructed this weapon, which bankrupted more than one of his companions. The result is a little predictable.
          But the concept of the USSR was different: each soldier was the main combat unit, armed with a semi-automatic rifle. Naturally, the semiautomatic devices, which cost more than light machine guns, were not enough for everyone during the war, and they were replaced by development magazines of the last century. It was only in parallel with them that submachine guns were used, but not like the ones around the world, but special ones: with a range of actual fire of up to 200 meters. In fact, in terms of combat capabilities it was already ersatz-PDW, only heavy.
          In the United States, they were able to arm everyone with semi-automatic weapons.
          And whose concept turned out to be more correct, history has shown.
          1. Bradypodidae
            Bradypodidae 19 October 2015 00: 20 New
            0
            Brad. Pearl smiled about special submachine guns, as did Schmeiser, who had bankrupt all.
          2. forwarder
            forwarder 19 October 2015 00: 29 New
            -6
            Quote: Assistant
            He requested for each fighter an automatic weapon under an intermediate cartridge with an effective combat range of up to 300 meters.

            I am amazed. Write everything correctly. Perhaps they even read it with me earlier. And perhaps themselves.
            But not about that now. 300 m, it was a compromise. It was necessary 400-450 m, like an automatic rifle. But in this case, it was impossible to create individual weapons. Only the handbrake. And even then, in the case of a successful design (Lewis). With an unsuccessful design, only an automatic rifle (DP-27) was obtained. Or something in between.
            Therefore, it was decided to reduce parasitic energy by reducing the power of the cartridge, and this resulted in a decrease in the effective fire range. Calculations showed that a sufficient combat rate of fire can be achieved with a cartridge power of about 2000 J. Which gave an effective range of 300 m. This is how the German stormtroopers appeared. An ersatz weapon for patching holes in fire density.
            Quote: Assistant
            Naturally, the semiautomatic devices, which cost more than light machine guns, were not enough for everyone during the war, and they were replaced by development magazines of the last century.

            Hmm, but nothing that the Soviet semiautomatic devices (SVT-40) were not only expensive, but they also didn’t shoot long? And from this the prime cost of one shot was generally prohibitive. Yes, and these rifles needed a lot. And they did not have time to do simpler mosquitoes, they didn’t have enough for everyone, they had to replace them with PCA. They refused from SVT-40.
            Quote: Assistant
            That's just in parallel with them, submachine guns were used, but not like the ones around the world, but special ones: with a range of actual fire of up to 200 meters

            Gee-gee-gee. But nothing, that the effective range of these self-arrows was 30 m? And at great distances they could destroy the enemy only by hitting him in a vital organ.
            This is Tommy Gan’s range of a direct shot on a growth figure was 200 m. Which, together with a range of effective fire of 420 m, made him a completely problem-free weapon at a range of 200 m. And then it was necessary to work entirely. And so on up to 420 m.
            Quote: Assistant
            In fact, in terms of combat capabilities it was already ersatz-PDW, only heavy.

            Enchanting nonsense. The usual substandard. From which the "lucky owners" themselves abandoned immediately after the war.
            Quote: Assistant
            In the United States, in general, they managed to arm everyone with semi-automatic

            It's not about the Garands, the British have Lee-enfield in the density of fire they were not inferior. But they did not have Tommy Gans.
          3. gross kaput
            gross kaput 19 October 2015 11: 45 New
            +3
            Quote: Assistant
            Suddenly, by the middle of the Second World War, he realized what stupidity he had done, but it was too late.
            By 1943, he recognized this to himself and honestly tried to fundamentally change this concept,

            But what a surprise, work on intermediate cartridges and weapons for it began in Germany back in 1933, in 1935 the first experimental Volmer-Werke carbine was tested under the "Gek" cartridge 7,75X40, but this is before history, serious development began at the Deutsche since 1938 In 1939, the 7,92X33 shortcut cartridge was finally worked out, in parallel with this, Haenel began to develop his machine gun in 1940, Walter joined the process.
            In 1942. produce the first serial Mkb 42 (w) Mkb 42 (H) and in 1943 they adopt the MP 43. So all this was not "suddenly" and not
            Quote: Assistant
            By 1943, he admitted to himself
            and it was a completely systematic work that had begun, as a matter of fact, before September 1, 1939 and was already being actively developed even when everything was wonderful at the Wehrmacht.
            Quote: Assistant
            In the United States, they were able to arm everyone with semi-automatic weapons.

            Well, let's put it this way - in the same United States, baby warrants (M-1 carbines under 7,62X33) produced 1 million more than M-1 rifles smile
            1. forwarder
              forwarder 19 October 2015 12: 25 New
              -3
              Quote: gross kaput
              and it was a completely systematic work that had begun, as a matter of fact, before September 1, 1939 and was already being actively developed even when everything was wonderful at the Wehrmacht.

              Traditionally and expectedly mislead us. No storm troopers were then removed. They tried to make self-loading under a rifle cartridge. Only.
              Quote: gross kaput
              in the United States, baby warrants (M-1 carbines under 7,62X33) produced 1 million more than M-1 rifles

              They were called M1 Carbine, unlike the M1 Garand.
              Yes, in fact, the US Army used cheap ersatz substitutes.
              M1 Carbine, this is a fairly strong US failure in the field of shooting. Very defective semi-automatic carbine. On its basis, an M2 carbine-machine gun was also made. Too nonsense. Bad cartridge. From this, the M2 in its performance characteristics could only compete with the highly advanced Hungarian Danuvian submachine gun. That for a normal submachine gun carbine should be regarded as a failure.
              But, again, this ersatz is better than the Soviet version, for which there is little suitable PPSh submachine gun. But worse than the German Sturmgever, who went into production simultaneously with the M2.
              1. psiho117
                psiho117 19 October 2015 14: 17 New
                +1
                forwarder, well, you and stubborn. Here on the forum, of course, all meets, but you are something enchanting

                Quote: forwarder

                M1 Carbine, this is a fairly strong US failure in the field of shooting. Very defective semi-automatic carbine


                I laughed at your pearls so that on this very phrase the leg by the chair broke down ...
                come on, burn escho.
                1. forwarder
                  forwarder 19 October 2015 14: 27 New
                  -1
                  Quote: psiho117
                  I laughed at your pearl

                  And you eat oats. From the day nursery. Then stop laughing.
                  And I can’t help you with anything else.
                  1. Bradypodidae
                    Bradypodidae 19 October 2015 18: 40 New
                    0
                    I don’t understand what are you trying to prove? Is the Americans different in classifying? So pooh on them and their classification. We have our own, we adhere to it. So is Thompson the best PP than the others? So how many of those Thompson did others? The main PPs of the war were MP40, PPSh and probably PPS. Of all three, perhaps the best is PPS, and MP40 is the weakest. What's wrong? Where does the stomach hurt?
                    1. forwarder
                      forwarder 19 October 2015 20: 36 New
                      0
                      Quote: Bradypodidae
                      what are you trying to prove?

                      Who told you that I'm trying to prove something to someone? To prove something to someone, you need opponents. Those. people who are widespread in the matter and have a different opinion. I do not see such versed people with an opinion different from mine. There are no opponents. Therefore, there is no one and nothing to prove.
                      And let the incompetent "sofa designers" hysterical. They have such a fate, to hysteria anonymously. Funny images of epaulettes under the avatars, this is the height of their "success in life".
                      Quote: Bradypodidae
                      So how many of those Thompson did

                      And what's this? As much as the US Army needed, so much was done.
                      Quote: Bradypodidae
                      The main PP of the war were MP40, PPSh and probably PPS. Of all three, perhaps the best PPS, and the MP40 is the weakest. What's wrong? Where does my stomach hurt?

                      No, I’m asking you, what hurts you if you make such statements? Have you seen movies about the war? Those where scouts are shown. They are all with MP-40, except those with DP-27. And the Germans in our rear are also with MP-40, and not PPSh / PPS. Why would this be so? Think the fantasies of the filmmakers? What, right everyone? Especially in Soviet times, there were also consultants on the set. From the number of participants. What, all of them directly lied? Or were they mistaken for forgetfulness? Think about it.
                      1. Bradypodidae
                        Bradypodidae 19 October 2015 21: 47 New
                        0
                        To judge the quality of weapons by using them in films? You’re right, I’m not your opponent. I have no more questions.
                      2. forwarder
                        forwarder 19 October 2015 21: 57 New
                        0
                        Quote: Bradypodidae
                        To judge the quality of weapons by using them in films?

                        Who says what to judge? As an additional illustration.
                        Quote: Bradypodidae
                        You are right, I’m not your opponent.

                        Glad.
  9. corporal
    corporal 18 October 2015 10: 53 New
    +1
    Quote: voyaka uh
    The Americans are going to replace the M4 with the G38 (Heckler & Koch HK416).

    Quote: Pimply
    Well, it’s worth noting that the same Americans are getting rid of HK416

    belay what
  • Izotovp
    Izotovp 18 October 2015 10: 37 New
    0
    And what do we hear about ADS?
  • marshes
    marshes 18 October 2015 11: 04 New
    +1
    Above of the listed assault rifles have a gas vent mechanism with a short piston stroke, SCS, of course, there are advantages of relatively high accuracy in comparison with a long piston stroke, AKM. But AK-type weapons have a good trait of "omnivorous" ammunition, regardless of the country of manufacture.
    And so the trends are already noticeable, an increase in accuracy at long distances. Understandably, there is no desire for "close contact".
    Here is a photo of a Turkish rifle.
    The MKEK weapons concern (Makina ve Kimya Endüstrisi Kurumu) began work on the creation of a new 5.56mm machine gun for the Turkish army in 2007. The first 5.56mm caliber samples appeared by 2008 under the name Mehmetçik-1, and were constructively based on the German HK 416 rifle. However, in the future the Turkish army, based on its own wide experience of using weapons for different types of cartridges (7.62mm NATO in HK G3 rifles , 7.62x39 in AKM Kalashnikov assault rifles and 5.56mm NATO in HK 33 assault rifles) apparently decided that the new army rifle (assault rifle) should use NATO cartridge 7.62x51. As a result, in May 2014, the first batch of MKEK MPT-76 Mehmetçik-2 automatic rifles, structurally and outwardly similar to the German 7.62mm HK 417 rifles, was delivered to the Turkish Army units in May. The fate of the 5.56mm version of the same system is still unknown. The MPT-76 rifle designation stands for Milli Piyade Tüfeği - National Infantry Rifle.

    Automatic rifle (automatic) MKEK MPT-76 uses a gas automatic with a short-stroke gas piston located above the barrel. The barrel is locked by a rotary bolt with 7 combat stops. The receiver is made of aluminum alloy and is connected by two transverse pins to the aluminum box of the trigger mechanism, made integrally with the mine shaft. Cartridge feeding - from two-row magazines made of transparent plastic. The design provides a shutter lag. Butt telescopic, adjustable in length. Sights are mounted on an integrated Picatinny rail on the receiver. The rifle is standardly equipped with a front sight on a folding base located on the gas block and a folding adjustable aperture entirely on a removable base. In addition, the rifle is equipped with a quick-detachable carrying handle that has a longitudinal channel for using the main front and rear sights, as well as its own U-shaped front sight and rear sight for offhand shooting, at short ranges. Of course, the carrying handle can be easily replaced with a collimator, optical or night sight if necessary. On the forearm of the rifle, additional guides of the Picatinny type can be installed for attaching accessories, a bayonet-knife can be attached to the barrel.
  • provincial
    provincial 18 October 2015 11: 32 New
    +2
    Everything goes to the fact that the West will completely transfer to American weapons, a matter of time only.
  • kvs207
    kvs207 18 October 2015 11: 43 New
    +1
    Quote: Sergey-8848
    But the translation !!!

    Right I read and can’t get rid of the idea that the translator is non-Russian
  • kplayer
    kplayer 18 October 2015 11: 46 New
    +2
    G36 (E) as the main adopted for service in Spain, complaints are unknown.
    1. dvina71
      dvina71 18 October 2015 15: 09 New
      0
      Complaints appear after intense shooting, preferably in combat conditions. Where did the Spanish armed forces do this?
      1. kplayer
        kplayer 19 October 2015 17: 37 New
        0
        Given the almost simultaneous adoption of the Bundeswehr, then in the former Yugoslavia and Afghanistan, the discovery?
      2. The comment was deleted.
  • serverny
    serverny 18 October 2015 14: 12 New
    +2
    For such transfers (obviously machine translation with a minimum of manual revision), it would be nice to give out bans so as not to provoke relapses.
  • marshes
    marshes 18 October 2015 14: 30 New
    0
    It’s raining outside, the weather is foul ...
    Maybe I’ll revive this branch.
    What kind of ammunition will be used in the future, 7,62x51? Yes, it is quite possible, but this weapon will be for the rapid reaction forces or whatever ... Yes, a rather powerful cartridge, even assault rifles with a short piston stroke will be able to "digest" it, regardless of countries of the producer, terms and conditions of storage, or maybe released in "artisanal" conditions, it seems there was an article about the production of 7.62x39 in Pakistan or on the border with Afghanistan.
    For regular armies, 5.45 and 5.56 are preferable, economically viable. Sentry to walk, initial fire training, etc. But special. I prefer the services of 7.62, which I judge. The staer didn’t take root, but the ARX-160 and AK in 7.62x39 are successful. Here from 5.45 there were problems, fine sand fell into the chamber, I had to juggle the shutter again, the stores also had to be cleaned. From 7.62 this did not happen. The omnipresent dust, fine sand.
    So I see the return of 7.62 but the weapon should be of a modular design, with two (different lengths) barrels, possibly with a short piston stroke.
    1. dvina71
      dvina71 18 October 2015 15: 12 New
      0
      Quote: marshes
      What ammunition will be used in the future, 7,62x51


      7.62X51? in a personal automatic weapon? Don’t ... if you tilt the rambs and masterchips ....
      1. marshes
        marshes 18 October 2015 15: 22 New
        0
        Quote: dvina71
        7.62X51? in a personal automatic weapon? Well ... if you tilt the rams and masterchips ...

        Well, the Turks created their new rifle specifically for this cartridge.
        As for DMT, this is mainly for draftees. Now they have an average weight of 80 kg. passes over.
        In general, when I was at our place, we pulled up a PC with BC and 1.5 meters with a barn weight while shooting from SVD, mechanics showed amazing results. Now they are not called up below 1.65 m, they have to give bribes or go on courses, without WB, the road to state structures closed or enterprises with state participation.
        1. The comment was deleted.
          1. marshes
            marshes 18 October 2015 15: 40 New
            +1
            Quote: dvina71
            7.62X51 ... what is the mobility on the battlefield of this shooter?

            I don’t know, I saw the big ones who were "a little tired" after a simple march, it all depends on the organism. laughing
            the Americans were generally shocked by our airliners about endurance during the joint exercises. Therefore, they are not NATO competitors, the Chinese are trying ...
        2. forwarder
          forwarder 18 October 2015 15: 52 New
          -6
          Quote: marshes
          Well, the Turks created their new rifle specifically for this cartridge.

          Don't make me laugh. The very phrase "the Turks have created their new rifle" looks suspicious. The MPT-76 is a kind of intermediate option between the full-fledged DP-27 automatic rifle and the HK417 advanced self-loading (self-loading with the ability to conduct automatic fire). Neither fish nor meat, in short.
          To make it clearer, advanced self-loading combat rates of fire are higher than just self-loading, but less than automatic rifles. And besides, they can shoot a little bursts. This is such a hybrid, and nothing more. Not a full automatic rifle.
          1. marshes
            marshes 18 October 2015 16: 16 New
            +1
            Quote: forwarder
            Not a full automatic rifle.

            And what do you think of a full-fledged automatic rifle?
            1. forwarder
              forwarder 18 October 2015 17: 08 New
              -3
              Quote: marshes
              What do you think of a full-fledged automatic rifle?

              I AM? And where am I? There are quite specific criteria. In Europe and the USA they are not so that they are exactly the same.
              But in general, it is an INDIVIDUAL weapon on a rifle cartridge, which provides the ability to conduct automatic fire with a combat rate of 70-80 rounds per minute.
              There are also advanced automatic rifles (they are not singled out in all countries, for example, the USA does not distinguish them at all, there has been a sluggish debate on this subject for many years). They have a combat rate of 80-100 rounds per minute.
              And there is self-loading with the ability to conduct automatic fire. There, who is in great demand, but not more than 70 rounds per minute.
              The same applies to weapons on cartridges with a new small-caliber bullet. According to their performance characteristics, these are typical automatic rifles. And even all but M16A1 are advanced. Despite the fact that they have cartridges of reduced (intermediate) power.
              1. marshes
                marshes 18 October 2015 17: 27 New
                +1
                Quote: forwarder
                I AM? And where am I?

                Well, give the model something else, so that people strive.
                Here I am 74, I just like the sawn-off shotgun. And the rest is in caliber 7.62 and even at medium distances, on distant SVD and PKK, with optics. That's why I am for combined weapons with different barrel lengths. Here is Italian, 5.56 two minutes 7.62 but this is multi-caliber.
                Yes, it’s far from ideal. That’s the competition in the Russian Federation, the AK-12 is constantly being reviewed, and silence, balanced mechanics about the Kovrovites. The AK-12 isn’t enough to see. And the mechanism is complicated for the Kovrovites, and it’s expensive to go.
                1. forwarder
                  forwarder 18 October 2015 17: 41 New
                  -1
                  Quote: marshes
                  Well, give the model something else, so that people strive

                  Do not understand.
                  Quote: marshes
                  Here is an Italian, 5.56 two minutes 7.62 but this is multi-caliber.

                  Italians have been doing this all their lives. Do not believe it, but they had huge trunks of ship cannons, too, were bicaliber in the project. Those. In advance, the multiplicity of the bore for the repair caliber was laid. Economists.
                  Quote: marshes
                  Yes, far from ideal.

                  The problem is in the cartridge. It is difficult to pile something conditional on it. So they suffer. As though they want, but the cartridge does not allow. I don’t know, maybe they’ll come up with something.
                  1. marshes
                    marshes 18 October 2015 17: 50 New
                    +1
                    Quote: forwarder
                    Do not understand.

                    Perfect Assault Rifle, Automatic.
                    1. forwarder
                      forwarder 18 October 2015 18: 17 New
                      -3
                      Quote: marshes
                      Perfect Assault Rifle, Automatic.

                      So I (and the whole world agree with me) do not consider assault rifles on a cartridge with a classic bullet a normal weapon.
                      Here again, confusion with the terms. If to speak the European language, then the weapon on the new small-caliber cartridges is also an assault rifle. On a formal basis.
                      Americans disagree with this and call such weapons automatic rifles.
                      Here I agree with the Americans, formalities, formalities, but according to the technical specifications such weapons are the most real full-fledged automatic rifles. But with a reduced cartridge power. And with real assault rifles (on classic cartridges), because of a weak cartridge, their performance characteristics are also worse. Worse than automatic rifles.
                      These are the things that are happening in this area.
      2. forwarder
        forwarder 18 October 2015 19: 28 New
        -3
        Quote: dvina71
        7.62X51? in a personal automatic weapon? Well ... if you tilt the rams and masterchips ..

        But where did they go? There during WW2, as there were a lot of them. And now? Who has plagued?
    2. forwarder
      forwarder 18 October 2015 15: 36 New
      -4
      Quote: marshes
      So I see a return of 7.62

      What 7.62?
      If rifle, then there is sadness. Under this cartridge can not make an individual automatic weapon. Because it contradicts the laws of physics. But if you still try hard, as they did in the USSR, then such an automatic rifle will look about the same as the DP-27 automatic rifle looked. True, in the USSR, in order not to be dishonored, it was called a machine gun. But this is an ordinary Soviet propaganda lie. It is enough to look at its performance characteristics to understand that it is a heavy, multi-charge automatic rifle on a bipod. And to her machine gun, like ... Well, then you come up with something yourself. You can also do self-loading with the ability to conduct automatic fire. They are made by Germans, Turks. And proudly called automatic rifles. Which is also a lie. These are advanced self-exercises, and nothing more.
      If the intermediate is classic, then there is also a stove. But the other. The weapon on this cartridge does not have a sufficient effective range. Simply put, the weapon on this cartridge is an ersatz weapon. Its small-scale production is justified for some special operations. But for full-fledged army needs, it is not suitable. This was even understood in the USSR in the mid-70s. And the production of such weapons was stopped. And stocks were given away to “friends” - the townspeople all over the world.
      Therefore, today there is simply no alternative to small-caliber cartridges with bullets of a new generation. And no one is going to replace them with anything. Because just nothing.
      1. marshes
        marshes 18 October 2015 16: 00 New
        +2
        Quote: forwarder
        . It is enough to look at its performance characteristics to understand that it is a heavy multi-shot automatic rifle on a bipod. And to her machine gun, like ... Well, then you come up with something yourself.

        Well, I see it as an automatic rifle, the RPK will be used as a light machine gun, by the way, I used it at one time, a kind of long-barreled assault rifle. This is a wonderful thing in the steppe. That Turkish that the RPKs are all sharpened at distances of 400-600m.
        Quote: forwarder
        If the intermediate is classic, then there is also a stove. But the other. The weapon on this cartridge does not have a sufficient effective range.

        RPK. By the way, China actively uses clones, which we demonstrated at competitions in the summer, where they conveniently dragged the handle to the forearm.
        Quote: forwarder
        Its small-scale production is justified for some special operations.

        So now everywhere conflicts are turning into a special operation. The small-caliber cartridge is now considered a peacetime cartridge.
        1. forwarder
          forwarder 18 October 2015 16: 50 New
          -7
          Quote: marshes
          RPK will be used as a light machine gun,

          Quote: marshes
          That Turkish that RPK all of them are imprisoned at distances of 400-600m.

          The PKK has never been a full-fledged light machine gun. He was just called that. The range of its effective fire was limited to 300-320 m. Therefore, in 1974. such weapons were abandoned.
          As for the Turks, there THEORETICAL effective range is really far beyond 400 m (cartridge property). But in fact, no more than 450 m (weapon property). That such an imbalance between the cartridge and the weapon takes place. In addition, a small density of fire.
          More or less normal light machine gun of the USSR and the Russian Federation is ONLY Pecheneg. He is an old English Lewis at a new technological level. So, in the field of shooting, Russia is gradually catching up with the world that has gone ahead. Already have a gun (PY) and a handbrake (Pecheneg), If you don’t particularly pick and choose, then a sniper is quite good. It remains to do something with weapons on a 5,45x39 mm cartridge. This, of course, will be expensive. But you need to do something. There, not to say that complete horror. But also not entirely good. Therefore, I think everything will remain so. Until better times. Nevertheless, the situation is more or less tolerant.
          Well, and the little things. For the army, pasta must be reassigned to a caliber of 7.62 mm, for example. Even under the old TT bullet, it would have worked out quite well too.
          Quote: marshes
          By the way, China is actively using clones,

          China cannot be an arms trendsetter. At least for now. What they are doing there now is their problem.
          Quote: marshes
          now conflicts are turning into special operations everywhere

          I would not say that. Now ordinary interwar conflicts are just going on. Till.
          Quote: marshes
          The small-caliber cartridge is now considered a peacetime cartridge.

          I repeat once again, an alternative to it today can only be a bunch of self-loading on a rifle cartridge (even if it is advanced, with the ability to sometimes shoot with automatic fire) + a handbrake on the same cartridge. The new rifle cartridge on the classic 7,62 mm bullet today could of course be different. 7,62x54 mm is already quite archaic, it is not even a rifle cartridge, but rather a "machine gun" cartridge. Which should generally only be used with a heavy bullet in machine tools.
          Of course, you can imagine that a "knight's move" will be made, and instead of the 5,45x39 mm cartridge, a new 7,62x46-49 mm rifle cartridge on a classic bullet will be adopted. And the weapon described above is on it. But somehow I can't believe it. Expensive.
          There is also a second THEORETICAL alternative, switch to the NATO small-caliber cartridge. Which would also be nice, the cartridge on the SS109 pool is very good. But this is from the realm of fiction.
          1. marshes
            marshes 18 October 2015 17: 08 New
            +1
            Quote: forwarder
            The PKK has never been a full-fledged light machine gun. He was just called that. The range of its effective fire was limited to 300-320 m. Therefore, in 1974. such weapons were abandoned.

            We actively use the PKK, something that remains in the inheritance.
            And about RPK-74, they have not heard, since 1974 they have been using Motor Rifle sub-s.
            Quote: forwarder
            More or less normal light machine gun of the USSR and the Russian Federation is ONLY Pecheneg. He is an old English Lewis at a new technological level.

            On account of forced cooling barrel? smile
            A good machine gun, I would like to compare NEGEV-7 and South Africa Vector.
            Quote: forwarder
            China cannot be an arms trendsetter. At least for now. What they are doing there now is their problem.

            Well, I like the 107mm MLRS, of course this is a copy of the Soviet MLRS,
            Quote: forwarder
            The new rifle cartridge on the classic 7,62 mm pool today, of course, could have been different. 7,62x54 mm is already quite archaic

            With this I agree. 51mm is the most, sleeve without a hem.
            Quote: forwarder
            There is also a second THEORETICAL alternative, switch to the NATO small-caliber cartridge. Which would also be nice, the cartridge on the SS109 pool is very good. But this is from the realm of fiction.

            In our realities from the realm of fiction, let's move on to 7.62x39 faster.
            1. forwarder
              forwarder 18 October 2015 17: 18 New
              -5
              Quote: marshes
              RPKs are actively used,

              We use PM. So, from this he became good?
              Quote: marshes
              And about RPK-74,

              RPK-74 and RPK, these are completely different weapons. The problem of the RPK-74 is exactly the same as that of the AK-74, not quite a conditional cartridge. Chased the rate of fire, lost in combat effectiveness. You have to pay for everything in the world. Moreover, the heat sink could still be corrected with little blood. But with efficiency, it will not work. Only expensive.
              Quote: marshes
              On account of forced cooling barrel?

              Exactly.
              Quote: marshes
              With this I agree. 51mm is the most, sleeve without a hem.

              51 mm today is a lot. I would leave the old cartridge for the lovers, anyway, it already exists. And instead of small-caliber I would take 7,62x46-49 mm. But when I think about how much it will cost, I immediately change my mind. Let it be all the same. In the end, the AK-74 is a little bad, but not much. While we tolerate.
              Quote: marshes
              move on faster at 7.62x39

              No, there will be no turning back to this insanity. Two times a mop will not come. At least I hope so.
              1. dvina71
                dvina71 18 October 2015 17: 22 New
                +2
                Quote: forwarder
                No, there will be no turning back to this insanity. Two times a mop will not come. At least I hope so.

                What insanity .. poorly explained? Only without common phrases and links to tyrnet. In simple physical terms ..
                1. forwarder
                  forwarder 18 October 2015 18: 38 New
                  -6
                  Quote: dvina71
                  What insanity .. poorly explained?

                  Insanity is that it was not necessary to equip the entire army with ersatz weapons. No, it is understandable that such a flawed tendency in the USSR came from the unfortunate "mouth of machine gunners". But then at least there was a war, there were no normal weapons, they had to invent something. But after the war, why?
                  The Germans did their assault because they had a catastrophically reduced density of fire. Machine guns and machine gunners physically ran out. Therefore they consciously went to reduce the effective fire range in order to increase its density. As a temporary measure during the war. After the war, the USSR did not pull its tail. But he also armed himself with such an ersatz.
                  They realized only after 27 years. And once again rearmament. A bunch of money was wasted.
                  In short, the insanity is that an assault rifle is a defective army weapon. Erzatz. You can use it, but in some specific cases. In general, this is a bad weapon. Weapons with impaired performance characteristics.
              2. marshes
                marshes 18 October 2015 17: 43 New
                +1
                Quote: forwarder
                We use PM. So, from this he became good?

                A good barrel in good hands, in the Czech version with 12 charging magazines is not bad.
                Good police gun.
                It would be possible, I would have kept it in my safe. Under a pillow, a revolver is better, or a shotgun of the 12th laughing , springs in stores that are constantly equipped over time, are deposited.
                1. forwarder
                  forwarder 18 October 2015 18: 08 New
                  -3
                  Quote: marshes
                  Good police gun.

                  But for some reason it is being used in the army. And just this is the main disgrace.
                  Although for the army I would have adapted it too. The fact is that in the army there is no service pistol. Not available after the removal of the Nagan revolver. So macaroni in caliber 7,62 mm with a re-squeezed sleeve and a bullet from the TT (better from the gun, but planted in a pistol way) would be just right.
                  1. marshes
                    marshes 18 October 2015 18: 26 New
                    +1
                    Quote: forwarder
                    But for some reason it is used in the army

                    And why else is something new, in the 80s, a Red Star appeared in a magazine, I read about the pistol contest, they generally considered caliber 5.6, a small thing.
                    It is designed as a weapon. You can shoot yourself.
                    Special forces, of course, need a different barrel, we use the Glocks and Cesets, which were not at the same time transferred to the Cobalt revolver under the PM, a cartridge. It is convenient to use one free hand.
                    Quote: forwarder
                    So macaroni in caliber 7,62 mm with a re-squeezed sleeve and a bullet from the TT (better from the gun, but planted in a pistol way) would be just right.

                    I didn’t understand much, TT is Mauser, 7.63x25 with Naganov’s capsule. Nagron cartridge, there is a dull lead bullet in the sleeve. There, a sleeve type mechanic moves and rests on the barrel, a couple of times shot-house sleeves were lying around, the platoon itself was tight very tight.
                    What does TT look like, look like HAI POWER, or something in it. It dries, the handle if it's good to wrap honey. plaster or electrical tape, with resin. Th will not be. But overly powerful.
                    1. forwarder
                      forwarder 18 October 2015 18: 49 New
                      -4
                      Quote: marshes
                      there was generally considered a caliber 5.6, small fry

                      No, they used a bullet of the same operating principle as the 5,45x39 mm cartridges.
                      Quote: marshes
                      It is designed as a weapon. You can shoot yourself.

                      I’m embarrassed to ask, on forums they so often want to shoot themselves, why? Why should an officer shoot? Is he necessarily mentally ill? Why can’t you surrender, as is customary throughout the world? Who will get better from the fact that an officer puts his brains out?
                      Quote: marshes
                      transferred under PM, cartridge

                      It doesn't matter if it’s convenient or not. It is important that they should not fight. You forget that an army pistol is a formidable melee weapon. The officer is not at all unarmed. And just taking it, even one, will not work.
                      True, this is not an officer of the Red Army or the SA. That remained, either captured, or to shoot. Because they were virtually unarmed. TT and PM, these are not army pistols.
                      Quote: marshes
                      But overly powerful.

                      Stupid, I would say. For official too powerful, for the main, the caliber is wrong. And the power will be too small. Something mean happened. As a result, for everything is bad.
                      1. marshes
                        marshes 18 October 2015 19: 06 New
                        0
                        Quote: forwarder
                        No, they used a bullet of the same operating principle as the 5,45x39 mm cartridges.

                        No, there the cartridge seemed to be a central battle, not about side ignition. The magazine seemed to be the standard bearer, the priest wrote out, forced the deputy politician laughing, it is better to UT, MK would still be TM and AF, and for skilled hands. laughing
                        Quote: forwarder
                        I’m embarrassed to ask, on forums they so often want to shoot themselves, why? Why should an officer shoot? Is he necessarily mentally ill? Why can’t you surrender, as is customary throughout the world? Who will get better from the fact that an officer puts his brains out?

                        It's just that everyone quotes laughing I remember the first exercises with NATO, they trained for the Geneva Conventions and didn’t immediately cut off our heads, not our chip, we tied a horse to a horse in the steppe or ran a herd, so if that tanks laughing
                        Quote: forwarder

                        It doesn't matter if it’s convenient or not. It is important that they should not fight. You forget that an army pistol is a formidable melee weapon. The officer is not at all unarmed. And just taking it, even one, will not work.

                        I like Glock. Chezet, a little heavy, the first generation.
                      2. forwarder
                        forwarder 18 October 2015 19: 11 New
                        -4
                        Quote: marshes
                        I like Glock

                        Beretta 92FS, the new Walter under the new cartridge of Steam. There are many good ones.
                        The Russian PY is also completely nothing. But only on the native Russian cartridge.
                      3. marshes
                        marshes 18 October 2015 19: 21 New
                        0
                        Quote: forwarder
                        Beretta 92FS, the new Walter under the new cartridge of Steam. There are many good ones.
                        The Russian PY is also completely nothing. But only on the native Russian cartridge.

                        I do not like weapons where you have to shoot with two hands, for this there is PP, I like MP-5 kurts.
                        It seemed like an opportunity from Bereta 9 and Glock 45 to shoot only with two hands, anthropological data, but I liked the Colt python with a 3-inch barrel.
                        There was a gasman at one time, Valtorovsky’s huge trunk, I’ve been carrying a bond, I think Walter PPK. like, or glock -19. Compact like.
                      4. forwarder
                        forwarder 18 October 2015 19: 54 New
                        -4
                        Quote: marshes
                        I do not like weapons where you have to shoot with two hands

                        Here is just a PI then for you. His return will be less. Due to the peculiarities of the Russian cartridge.
                        Quote: marshes
                        Compact love.

                        Then you need to be generals. They are given a compact special personal weapon. smile
                        A full-fledged army pistols, they are those officers who may well meet with the enemy one on one. That's how Americans love their M1911. And there God bestows bestowal.
                        But if for me, then I do not like the M1911. He doesn’t have a cartridge that is good for a pistol. Excessively powerful. But Thompson on the same cartridge is very good. It turns out that the cartridge is more likely for an automatic weapon than for a pistol.
                      5. marshes
                        marshes 18 October 2015 20: 17 New
                        0
                        Quote: forwarder
                        Here is just a PI then for you. His return will be less. Due to the peculiarities of the Russian cartridge.

                        We are gradually moving to Luger ammunition.
                        While there is no cartridge factory of our own, so we use it in all calibres.
                        Quote: forwarder
                        Then you need to be generals. They are given a compact special personal weapon.

                        It was recalled that the Generals should not run, in wartime it causes panic, in peace-laughter.
                        Essentially, the weapon should be compact, the ability to use one hand. Yes, the same Makarov could lengthen the barrel and use Parabelum, the Germans Walter was in the BB.
                        Quote: forwarder
                        That's how Americans love their M1911. And there God bestows bestowal.

                        Yes, there are carcasses on average 85 kg with an increase of 1.80.
                        Quote: forwarder
                        He doesn’t have a cartridge that is good for a pistol. Excessively powerful. But Thompson on the same cartridge is very good. It turns out that the cartridge is more likely for an automatic weapon than for a pistol.

                        I said that there was an opportunity to shoot something ... A long story my wife has a sister, she has a husband, he lives there as a former policeman, now the sheriff’s service, etc. ... laughing
                        Tomi gun, as of the permitted ones, they use as an assault weapon, of course the short machine gun suits them the same, but legislation or lawsuits. laughing
                        Secondly, carcasses under narcotics and fast food lovers are difficult, it’s very difficult to lay them down, 45,12 is the best thing as an additional barrel for a 357 magnum revolver.
                        And at the expense of the trigger 12, I myself know as a hunter. Remaking the shutter scares the game.
                        From PM on hares, but at night and a powerful lamp, they freeze in the light.
              3. gross kaput
                gross kaput 18 October 2015 23: 43 New
                +2
                Miracle - this is a wonderful excerpt concerning the Greatest Teacher of the Kuptsovs sect of witnesses, well, she is also very suitable for you Reading the merchants' revelations, one constantly becomes confronted with the question: did the nonsense write this nonsense or the malicious, patented liar? And it is far from always possible to give a definite answer to it. Actually, it’s not so important - it’s trying to give you its bullshit or a malicious misinformer. Nonsense - they are so nonsense. If the author does not know elementary facts about the subject of his reasoning, why do we need him so? And if he knows, but he’s lying, why do we need him so much, nonsense?
                I recommend to all comrades who enter into polemics with this troll with many names to understand who you are dealing with and not to waste time and nerves in vain. http://civ.icelord.net/read.php?f=4&i=10632&t=8598&v=f
  • dvina71
    dvina71 18 October 2015 17: 08 New
    +3
    Quote: forwarder
    More or less normal light machine gun of the USSR and the Russian Federation is ONLY Pecheneg. He is an old English Lewis at a new technological level.

    I will not comment on anything. Pecheneg is an upgraded PC .. watch the video.

    and PC ..
    1. forwarder
      forwarder 18 October 2015 18: 50 New
      -6
      Quote: dvina71
      I will not comment on anything.

      Yes, sometimes it's better to chew than talk. Especially for those who are not in the subject.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  • gross kaput
    gross kaput 18 October 2015 18: 01 New
    +7
    Quote: forwarder
    then such an automatic rifle will look approximately the same as the DP-27 automatic rifle looked.

    forwarder, aka turk, aka ZVTsO, it’s 190815, you probably don’t seem to be a troll, but just a little on your head - you’re not tired of starting new accounts yourself? You’d better go to Kuptsov’s blog and you’ll find like-minded people there - though they change often there - some will be treated for healing but others will be released. laughing Well, let’s tell us about the effective PPSh range of 30 meters, the DP-27 automatic rifle, the 9X19 super gunpowder and other, let's say, non-standard secret knowledge of the elect from the Kuptsov sect.
    The people are good at feeding the troll - this miracle is already registered in the sixth or seventh account since the previous ones fail in deep minuses.
    1. forwarder
      forwarder 18 October 2015 18: 55 New
      -8
      Quote: gross kaput
      we don't seem to be troll

      Again the second ego k_ply came running. Pass by. On Sundays I do not serve.
      1. gross kaput
        gross kaput 18 October 2015 22: 40 New
        +1
        forwarder a miracle you yourself are not tired of carrying a blizzard? last time you didn’t tell anything about super gunpowder for 9X19 - which is, in principle, standard for connoisseurs of alternative history, as soon as you ask them to provide proof of "bamazhku" in kamchestvo, they immediately dive into the bushes - for they have not yet learned how to turn their fantasies into tangible things. laughing
        1. forwarder
          forwarder 18 October 2015 23: 02 New
          -5
          Quote: gross kaput
          you last time about super gunpowder for 9X19 didn’t say anything - which is basically standard for

          I agree with you in advance on all issues. You just do not be nervous. And do no harm to your family. And then from inadequate everything can be expected.
  • Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 18 October 2015 15: 05 New
    +2
    Where is German engineering, where did it go? The cartridge is, schemes are thought up. Metalworking at a high level, there are personnel. And why not make a normal rifle. G3 can still be sawed and sawed. Some kind of cut money.
    1. dokusib
      dokusib 19 October 2015 11: 41 New
      0
      In the wild cut smells! lol
  • Massik
    Massik 18 October 2015 15: 11 New
    +2
    Hmm, can the Germans, along with their entire child prodigy school, adopt an alien construction machine ??? Degenerate however ...
    1. marshes
      marshes 18 October 2015 15: 26 New
      +1
      Quote: Marssik
      Degenerate however ...

      My niece in Germany, after school, 5 people went to university, out of 25, of which only two were indigenous. smile Scary scatters, lovers of l / n and techno rave. laughing
    2. Awaz
      Awaz 18 October 2015 15: 50 New
      +1
      it is a business. Moreover, the roof is such that it is impossible to refuse
    3. gross kaput
      gross kaput 18 October 2015 18: 13 New
      +1
      Well Gy36 in which the German only plastic and design accepted why not go further?
      1. Massik
        Massik 18 October 2015 21: 13 New
        +1
        If there is only German plastic, then show me at least one domestic machine in which there is something other than Russian iron?)
        1. gross kaput
          gross kaput 18 October 2015 22: 58 New
          +3
          Quote: Marssik
          If there is only German plastic, then show me at least one domestic machine in which there is something other than Russian iron?)

          the point is that after the takeover of NK by the British corporation Royal Ordnance, the British export "rifle for the poor" SAR-50, built in turn on the AR-87 design, was chosen as the basis for the NK-18, so you can look at it in different ways - you can say that the Germans, under the control of the Britons, dressed the American-British SAR-87 in plastic and got an even cheaper rifle (and the most stringent requirement in the competition was the price), but we can say that the brilliant German designers developed the G-36 creatively using the developments of Eugene Stoner and created new weapons based on old ideas and new technologies.
          Each chooses what he likes best. wink
        2. Assistant
          Assistant 18 October 2015 23: 17 New
          0
          then show me at least one domestic machine in which there is something other than Russian iron?)


          AK, AKM - Russian tree.
          AK-74 - Russian glass fiber reinforced polyamide.
          Will we talk about Korobov’s designs?
    4. Assistant
      Assistant 18 October 2015 23: 39 New
      +2
      Hmm, can the Germans, along with their entire child prodigy school, adopt an alien construction machine ???


      Correctly expressed about the wunder-arms school. Stg-44, FG-42, Kar 43 - the burghers know a lot about perversions.
      The same HK G3 is a licensed copy of the CETME rifle (yes, I know that German designers from Mauser participated in the development, and the very half-free roller shutter scheme was proposed by Forgrimler, but it was designed on CETME). And the use of the G3 scheme brought HK world fame: the G3 itself, MP5, G51 / 53, PSG-1.
      It is a pity, of course, that they did not bring the G11 to mind. Although, probably, it turned out that in production using modern technologies it will be the Frankenstein monster worse than the FG-42.
      1. forwarder
        forwarder 19 October 2015 00: 08 New
        -8
        Quote: Assistant
        Correctly expressed about the wunder-arms school. Stg-44, FG-42, Kar 43 - the burghers know a lot about perversions.

        Still, the Stg-44, although it was a circle flawed, the Germans promoted not in vain. They also had something to patch holes in the density of fire. So they patched them with this ersatz. Everything is better than the Red Army, which tried to patch these same holes with the help of PCA.
        Not everyone is as lucky as the Americans. Tommy ghans were only with them. Yes, and Garanda, too. Although the very successful British Lee-Anfield bolts could well compete with the Garands. But the British didn’t have anything like Tommy-gun.
      2. gross kaput
        gross kaput 20 October 2015 00: 39 New
        +2
        Quote: Assistant
        It is a pity, of course, that they did not bring the G11 to mind.

        But what kind of thing - the G-11 was adopted by the Bundeswehr on March 23, 1990, the first contract for the serial production of rifles for the rearmament of the Bundeswehr was signed on April 3, 1990 and provided for the production of 200 rifles. Well, then politics already intervened - the collapse of the USSR buried not only the Warsaw Pact but also the G-000 project - in 11 Germany united, the Bundeswehr increased sharply, but the completely different weapons of its "halves" required urgent standardization (and this was absolutely all about starting with footcloths and ending with aircraft), plus US pressure to standardize small calibers, as a result, a lot of weapons were required, quickly and as cheaply as possible, as a result, the contract for the G-1990 was terminated (several thousand managed to release them) and the NK-11 / G-50 entered the scene, but that's another story - if you speak German read Wolfgang Sela's book Die G-36 Story where this whole epic is described.
  • Gomel
    Gomel 18 October 2015 16: 08 New
    0
    the article could be quite good if not for the terrible translation
  • AlexA
    AlexA 18 October 2015 16: 31 New
    0
    The sources of information seemed to be in foreign languages. The translation is disgusting, most likely - machine. In some cases, there is a lack of technical accuracy and certainty of formulations. I have to guess the context.
    It is advisable to be more precise.
  • Denimax
    Denimax 18 October 2015 16: 34 New
    +2
    Now, on the contrary, they say that there are no complaints. I really had suspicions of reliability, a little more metal in the structure would not hurt.
    And he dealt with them for less than six months, then they were completely new. And if 2-3 years? Problems arose in Afghanistan, perhaps if you throw on that sunshine and warm one side (that even though the scrambled eggs are hot), it may well lead to and deteriorate the accuracy of the fire.
  • Tyomanator
    Tyomanator 18 October 2015 16: 52 New
    +1
    The translation is disgusting, it would not be necessary to upload such bullshit on the site ...
  • Wasiliy1985
    Wasiliy1985 18 October 2015 20: 16 New
    0
    Excuse my "French": "So what?"
    In the sense: what conclusions should I, as a non-specialist in small arms combat, draw?
    As an informational article, it is extremely narrowly specialized (ie an article for "specialists").
    As propaganda - about nothing.

    No result!
    "Ah um sorry - may name from Susanin!" (c) Russian anecdote ..
  • proletarian
    proletarian 18 October 2015 23: 40 New
    0
    And who after that still dares to "obserat" our good old "Kalash", at least 7,62, at least 5,45?
    So, let's talk about the "combat effectiveness" of the "gentlemen"?
  • Zaurbek
    Zaurbek 19 October 2015 07: 53 New
    0
    That's how the Germans now do Mercedes / BMW / Audi, there used to be eternal cars, but now you won’t guess that the following will break.
  • _KM_
    _KM_ 19 October 2015 10: 56 New
    0
    One thing pleases - our opponent has refused to use such a promising caliber as the "grendel". And from 5,56 to 7,62 there will be old songs in a new way. In principle, there is nothing wrong with these calibers, just the shooting level of fighters must be raised very sharply. And no one will give money to the Germans for this.
    1. forwarder
      forwarder 19 October 2015 12: 02 New
      -2
      Quote: _KM_
      One thing pleases - our opponent has refused to use such a promising caliber as the "grendel".

      "Our enemy" is not. Therefore, he refused. And even earlier this "promising caliber" was abandoned by far from stupid Italians and Japanese.
      In general, I come across information on this "promising caliber" only on such forums. After experiments with Barrett on a serious level, such a topic (mass army armament) no longer exists. Only in the circles of "couch designers and strategists".
  • _KM_
    _KM_ 19 October 2015 16: 02 New
    0
    At the heart of the rejection of the "grendel":

    - economics

    - standardization,

    - traditions.

    And not TTX. And this has long been described in the relevant literature. The cartridge is the basis of rifled weapons. Changing it causes huge costs, both visible (the production of new cartridges, their delivery in parts, disposal of old ones), and hidden ones - new stores and calibers (I hope you know that) and so on. The cost of the weapon itself is not the main one in this chain.

    Good performance characteristics have become the reason that "grendel" is gaining popularity in sports, and this is a very good marker. It's a pity not everyone understands this.
    1. forwarder
      forwarder 19 October 2015 16: 57 New
      -2
      Quote: _KM_
      At the heart of the rejection of "grendel": - tradition. And not performance characteristics.

      Well yes. Of course. Tell us about the traditions of equipping all armies of the world with small-caliber cartridges, as it was in the 70s of the last century.
      Quote: _KM_
      Changing it causes huge costs, both visible (the production of new cartridges, their delivery in parts, disposal of old ones), and hidden ones - new stores and calibers (I hope you know what it is), etc.

      Nothing when it makes a keen sense everyone is rearmament with a cavalry gallop. And again, I refer you to the 70s of the last century.
      And you have exactly the opposite story. In the 6,5s of the last century, all who once mistakenly adopted it and used it massively abandoned army weapons in the caliber of 30 mm. Moreover, just in spite of these very "huge costs".
      Quote: _KM_
      Good performance characteristics have become the reason that "grendel" is gaining popularity in sports, and this is a very good marker.

      This is generally no information. The bullet should not only reach the target, but also do something there in the carcass of a soldier. Something specific. In this case, a piece of paper is very different from this very carcass. Therefore, sports weapons, this is one topic. But the army is completely different.
      If you want to refer to something, refer to the hunting weapons for medium-sized game. But by no means, not a sporting weapon.
      Quote: _KM_
      It’s a pity that not everyone understands this.

      It is a pity that some people think that they understand something about this.
      I assure you, people have already studied the question quite well, how would it be more adroit to kill each other. And the rich illiterate Pinocchio in the revolutionary red pants, who on this subject were weird left and right, there was no more in the world. Broke from eternal rearmament. All that remains is all very rational. Therefore, if they don’t pass, then this does not make sense.
      Besides, I already gave you Barrett as an example. Didn't someone else's "mop" teach you anything? Do you have to have your own slap on the forehead?
  • Jackking
    Jackking 19 October 2015 16: 12 New
    0
    Article translated by Google translator? Or problems with the Russian language?
  • _KM_
    _KM_ 19 October 2015 22: 18 New
    0
    TTX "grendel" is on the network. The cartridge's har-ki are quite sufficient for the bio-target, and no worse than those of 5,45 and 5,56.

    The reference to sports is quite appropriate. Especially considering the fact that the sport in which the "grendel" is used is quite combat and much, tested in it, is then prescribed on army weapons.

    Quote: forwarder
    I assure you, people have already studied the question quite well, how would it be more adroit to kill each other. And the rich illiterate Pinocchio in the revolutionary red pants, who on this subject were weird left and right, there was no more in the world. Broke from eternal rearmament.


    Those. you have confirmed my statement that the abandonment of "grendel" is due to economic reasons.
    1. forwarder
      forwarder 19 October 2015 22: 44 New
      -2
      Quote: _KM_
      The specifications of the cartridge are quite sufficient for a bio-target, and no worse than 5,45 and 5,56.

      This cannot be in principle, because it contradicts the laws of physics. You know absolutely nothing about the types of bullets and the principles of their action. Study this question first, then move on to the next.
      The third time I am sending you to the Barrett threat ug *. Have you looked at him? Still have questions? No? Everything, now you can relax. And enjoy the old pelvis AK-47. Which on almost all TTXs is BETTER than Barrett.
      And try to answer the question for yourself, how will this central heating radiator with a trunk behave in the fields of the Non-Black Earth Region or somewhere else where there is soil? Outside of a neat clean shooting range.
      Quote: _KM_
      Especially taking into account that the sport in which the "grendel" is used is quite combat and a lot that has been tested in it is then prescribed on army weapons.

      What nonsense. I already wrote about this in detail before.
      Quote: _KM_
      Those. you have confirmed my statement that the abandonment of "grendel" is due to economic reasons.

      You have trouble understanding what is written. To take Hryundel into service, you need * s in red pants and dusty helmets. They can’t be found in the world today, they were ruined by their adventures in the field of armaments. This is what I wrote to you if you do not understand.
  • _KM_
    _KM_ 19 October 2015 23: 27 New
    0
    Quote: forwarder
    What nonsense. I already wrote about this in detail before.


    Those. there is essentially nothing to answer? Well, good.

    Quote: forwarder

    This cannot be in principle, because it contradicts the laws of physics


    A bullet weighing 7 g and early. speed approx. 800 m / s won't stop a person? Will 5,56 stop? And what kind of bullet is in the "grendel" ?! Only dry physics says the opposite:

    http://www.barnaulpatron.ru/production/sportshuntingcartridgescalibre/54539.html


    http://www.barnaulpatron.ru/production/sportshuntingcartridgescalibre/65.html

    5,45 E0 = 1703 J
    6,5 E0 = 2200 J

    The type of bullet is one - the so-called FMJ.

    Only p-that essentially, without demagoguery like - "I don't know how to parry an argument, so I'll write that this is nonsense and the opponent has problems with perception." Thank you for understanding.
    1. forwarder
      forwarder 20 October 2015 00: 12 New
      -2
      Quote: _KM_
      Those. there is essentially nothing to answer? Well, good.

      Those. Read what you wrote earlier. Do you refuse to cut? Why then should I write to you if you are not reading?
      Quote: _KM_
      A bullet weighing 7 g and early. speed approx. 800 m / s won't stop a person? Will 5,56 stop? And what kind of bullet is in the "grendel" ?!

      I already wrote to you that you are not aware of the different types of bullets. And you slip me some bullshit. Look here, on the branch, I already laid out a tablet with how bullets of various types behave in the carcass. Hryundel is not there, but he will be worse than the worst, i.e. worse than 7,62x39 mm. Because He is a classic and reduced caliber. This has long been well known to everyone but you, a fact. Therefore, everyone refused weapons in this caliber.
      No, still I’ll lay out a description plate again. In war, the maximum thickness of the ham is somewhere around 15 cm (this is where it is cut off to the right). And the usual one is 10 cm (the figure is 10 at the bottom and a white line). Now look what bullets of different models make on this thickness. Bullets No. 2 and 4, the usual classic, classic (caliber 7,62 mm). Bullet number 1, a new small-caliber. A bullet number 3, expansive, hunting. Where the black horizontal area is the wound channel. Where outlined in thin black, this is the area of ​​concussion. The difference in the degree of exposure to bullets of different types noticed? This is not a piece of paper for you to drill a hole in the shooting range.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  • _KM_
    _KM_ 20 October 2015 00: 27 New
    0
    Quote: forwarder
    . Hryundel is not there, but he will be worse than the worst


    I see no reason. Yes, and you can pick up a different bullet.
    1. forwarder
      forwarder 20 October 2015 00: 53 New
      -3
      Quote: _KM_
      I see no reason.

      But I see. The reason will be that the cross-sectional area of ​​a bullet with a caliber of 7,62 mm (excluding rifling) will be 45,6 square meters. mm And the same thing with a 6,5 mm bullet will be 33,2 square meters. mm The difference of 37,5% noticed?
      Quote: _KM_
      Yes, and you can pick up a different bullet

      Which one? With the classic, we figured out the paragraph above.
      For the expansive you will be imprisoned for the rest of your life. It is in a humane country. And in the inhumane hang.
      With a poorly stabilized one, it will not work either. A 6,5 mm bullet is too large for a human carcass. Specifically, too long. Therefore, its effectiveness will be less than that of today's small-caliber weakly stabilized bullets. Then the question arises, why would it be needed?
      In order not to be unfounded I will give you another example as an example. Everything is there, as in the past, only in the middle is a Yugoslav weakly stabilized bullet with a caliber of 7,62 mm added. A weakly stabilized 6,5 mm bullet will be better than it, but worse than 5,45 mm. Somewhere between them. Everything is very simple and clear. See for yourself.
      1. forwarder
        forwarder 20 October 2015 11: 12 New
        -2
        Quote: gross kaput
        That he can perfectly see the area of ​​concussion in the mirror - this is his head

        This is the level of "argumentation" of this bawker. There is no mind. Knowledge, too. But rudeness, with a margin. So he "operates" on them. There is nothing else.
        Quote: gross kaput
        then his fantasies and ancient picture

        Why is it ancient? What bullets have become different? Or has the carcass somehow changed? Very simple and at the same time informative picture. Clear to everyone. In addition to you and people of your level of knowledge and understanding.
        Quote: gross kaput
        In general, he amuses me - all the arguments are his fantasies and an ancient picture - or rather, even half of the picture with which he rushes about like a life-giving icon - show him this video and let him explain the effectiveness of grendel from his "unconventional" physics

        Just amazing charlottes are found on such forums. And their "arguments" are the same. Level "one grandmother said, and the second drew a cartoon on this topic."
        And the picture is cropped so that the ignorant type does not embarrass you with its continuation. Those. there will be no continuation in the carcass of a soldier, this is not an elephant. 10-15 cm ham, this is the maximum. On this she is circumcised. The following is information for elephant hunters. Which you like to consider. Including on their cartoons.
        You are amazing charlotte. And a throat.
    2. gross kaput
      gross kaput 20 October 2015 01: 07 New
      +1
      Yes, stop fighting with him - even though he added me to the black list, I can still see his posts - just go as a "guest". He does not see my posts, but tell him from me that he can perfectly see the area of ​​concussion in the mirror - this is his head laughing
      In general, he amuses me - all the arguments are his fantasies and an ancient picture - or rather, even half of the picture with which he rushes about like a life-giving icon - show him this video and let him explain the effectiveness of grendel from his "unconventional" physics
  • _KM_
    _KM_ 20 October 2015 10: 34 New
    0
    Quote: forwarder
    A 6,5 mm bullet is too large for a human carcass.


    That 6,5 mm is small, then large. You already decide somehow.

    Quote: forwarder
    Which one?


    Yes, any. A lot of experience in such work has been accumulated in the world and there would be a desire.
    1. forwarder
      forwarder 20 October 2015 10: 50 New
      -2
      Quote: _KM_
      That 6,5 mm is small, then large. You already decide somehow.

      No, it’s you who will go in for self-education. And figure out in which cases it will be large, and in which it is small.
      Quote: _KM_
      Yes, any. A lot of experience in such work has been accumulated in the world and there would be a desire

      Do not fantasize. There are not so many types of bullets (see my previous comment). And for army purposes, none of them in the caliber of 6,5 mm is suitable (in the same place, even with illustrations).
  • _KM_
    _KM_ 20 October 2015 10: 40 New
    0
    Quote: gross kaput
    In general, he amuses me - all the arguments are his fantasies and an ancient picture - or rather, even half of the picture with which he rushes about like a life-giving icon - show him this video and let him explain the effectiveness of grendel from his "unconventional" physics


    Will not explain. wink He stubbornly ignores uncomfortable arguments. To argue is not at all interesting.
    1. forwarder
      forwarder 20 October 2015 10: 53 New
      -3
      Quote: _KM_
      e will explain. wink He stubbornly ignores uncomfortable arguments. To argue is not at all interesting.

      In general, I understood your message. The whole world, full of fools and dumbasses. Only you are smart with kaput. Well, only he would have, he has obvious pathologies. But why are you following him? Already chewed the fullness, laid out the pictures, what could not be understood there?
    2. The comment was deleted.
  • _KM_
    _KM_ 20 October 2015 11: 27 New
    0
    Quote: forwarder
    And figure out in which cases it will be large, and in which it is small.


    If you shoot at a bird, then it is large, if at an elephant, then it is small. But we are not talking about that, but about military weapons. The characteristics of the cartridge are quite consistent with the military use. Nobody forbids picking up a more effective bullet. You shouldn't get hung up on wound channels because nobody canceled energy. And it is much higher for the "Grendel" than for low-impulse automatic cartridges.

    At the same time, the cartridge has excellent flatness and accuracy. According to this indicator, it is better than 7,62x39 and doesn’t kill the barrel like that. And the recoil momentum is less. Which is very useful for automatic weapons.

    For our army, this cartridge is all the more interesting because it is based on a Russian / Soviet cartridge case, which is useful from an economic point of view.

    In general, in the modern world a lot of experimenting with different calibers. And it is quite justified. Therefore, 5,7 FN for pistols and PPs, and intermediate automatic calibers, and more powerful rifle ones - Tempora mutantur et nos mutamur in illis were born.

    I myself did not shoot a weapon with a "grendel", but my friends athletes highly appreciated its potential, primarily for military automatic weapons.

    By the way, the world's first machine gun was also developed for a similar caliber. I recommend studying the question. Then there will be no "conclusions" about the unsuitability of this caliber for army weapons.

    http://royallib.com/read/monetchikov_s/istoriya_russkogo_avtomata.html#0
    1. forwarder
      forwarder 20 October 2015 13: 02 New
      -4
      Quote: _KM_
      But we are not talking about this, but military weapons. The characteristics of the cartridge are consistent with army use.

      It is useless to you to explain and prove something. It’s easier to explain and prove something to the telegraph pole. He will understand.
      I showed you substantively and proved that the caliber of 6,5 mm is not suitable for army needs, but you did not understand anything. Showed why, you also do not understand. They did not even understand that the whole world abandoned these van der wafers 80 years ago (the latter). I write obvious things, what could not be understood here?
      Quote: _KM_
      At the same time, the cartridge has excellent flatness and accuracy.

      Yes, I already understood that you can not understand the difference between sports and army weapons.
      Quote: _KM_
      And the recoil momentum is less

      Don't make up "advantages".
      Quote: _KM_
      but my acquaintances, athletes, praised its potential, primarily for army automatic weapons.

      Do you understand the insanity of the phrase? Do athletes appreciate the potential of army automatic weapons? Where did they get this ability to evaluate? And how did the shooting range polisher appreciate this potential? They have exactly the same qualifications for such assessments.
      Such things are not judged by athletes. And pot-bellied bald uncles in sloppy jackets and stretched pants. Often in glasses with thick lenses. Specifically dealing with such issues. Here they can be trusted. And what serious person will listen to athletes? Or, God forbid, the military?
      Quote: _KM_
      By the way, the world's first machine gun was also developed for a similar caliber. I recommend studying the question. Then there will be no "conclusions" about the unsuitability of this caliber for army weapons.

      I knew that this would eventually come up. Do not even stutter about him. Even the illiterate commissars in red trousers, who had broken a lot of firewood in this area, had the mind to set aside his fart with his leg.
      I do not even want to go into the list of disadvantages of this van der wafer. No hands are enough to list everything.
      In addition, I would like to inform you that this "machine gun" in its performance characteristics was not an assault rifle, like an assault rifle or an AK-47. And for this reason alone it cannot be called the "first assault rifle", as various unfortunate writers write.
      Ballistically, it was not quite a full-fledged carbine-machine gun on an intermediate power cartridge. In terms of performance characteristics, a direct competitor to the American M2 Carbine. But he at least did not claim the proud name of the "machine gun", but was quite content with the title of a carbine-machine gun. And the carbine cartridge is 1,5 times (!!!) less powerful than the cartridge of Fedorov's fart.
      I specify for you the effective range of fire:
      The norm for assault rifles is 330 m.
      For carbines on their cartridge - 300 m.
      SCS - 330 m.
      AK-47 - 310 m.
      Sturmgever - 290 m.
      Machine gun carbine - 220 m
      Semi-automatic (self-loading) carbine (which carbine is not known in Russia and the USSR, and its name, carbine, is called what is called short rifle in the world. Cutoff, literally) - 200 m.
      Pukalka Fedorova (on an intermediate power cartridge !!!, i.e. 1,5 times more powerful than a normal carbine) - 175 m.
      The Danuvian submachine gun - 130 m (on the pistol !!! cartridge 2,5 times weaker than the Fedorov fart cartridge).
      Any other comments needed?
  • gross kaput
    gross kaput 20 October 2015 13: 17 New
    +2
    Quote: forwarder

    Just amazing charlottes are found on such forums. And their "arguments" are the same. Level "one grandmother said, and the second drew a cartoon on this topic."
    And the picture is cropped so that the ignorant type does not embarrass you with its continuation. Those. there will be no continuation in the carcass of a soldier, this is not an elephant. 10-15 cm ham, this is the maximum. On this she is circumcised. The following is information for elephant hunters. Which you like to consider. Including on their cartoons.
    You are amazing charlotte. And a throat.

    Charlotan is the only one here - it's you, and also a goofy cheater - add your opponent to the black list so that you can write nonsense out of the box that he will not see - it only means that you yourself realize what nonsense you are and are afraid of a reasoned answer.
    10-15 centimeters of ham laughing either you are not judging by the sausage department of the store, or you have lived all your life in a boarding school for dystrophics - the thickness of an adult man's torso is 30-40 cm - that's bad luck right? Kuptsov hid back into the swamp from which he crawled out, it's not the end of the 90s in the yard, when the publishers, even realizing that the "masterpiece" of the "strange story" type is absolutely delusional, they printed it anyway, realizing that the opus is scandalous and thanks to the scandal will be promoted - now it is different time and other conditions and you still have not realized that schizophrenic delirium is no longer in trend. laughing
    Admins Is it time to ban the troll?
  • _KM_
    _KM_ 20 October 2015 13: 45 New
    0
    Quote: forwarder
    refused 80 years ago


    And switched to a low-pulse cartridge. And now the search for optimal calibers has begun again.

    Quote: forwarder
    Don't make up "advantages".


    Why did a small recoil impulse become an "advantage" ?! This has always been an advantage, especially for automatic weapons. And V.G. Fedorov and foreign authors have always written about this.

    Quote: forwarder
    The norm for assault rifles is 330 m.


    And who established this "norm"? There is no such norm. And this has already been discussed many times. Including the advantages of a flat trajectory for army weapons.

    Quote: forwarder
    Where did they get this ability to evaluate?


    Probably because they, as military men and well-shooting people, realistically evaluate the potential of weapons.

    Yes, but you yourself served, shot a lot? Or can you push on red pants? By the way, what caused the attachment specifically to the red pants? You wrote about them several times. Maybe this is a symptom or already a diagnosis? wink
    1. forwarder
      forwarder 20 October 2015 14: 35 New
      -3
      Quote: _KM_
      And switched to a low-pulse cartridge.

      Through approximately trilinear.
      Quote: _KM_
      And now the search for optimal calibers has begun again.

      I haven't heard anything about it. Only from the "couch theorists" in all sorts of "forums". Even if some kind of search is underway, the classic and weakly stabilized 6,5 mm bullet is clearly not applicable here. See the reasons above in the thread. Those. your Hryundel and its counterparts in a known span.
      Quote: _KM_
      It has always been an advantage.

      I do not know such information. Why is this needed? The recoil of the DP-27 (and the entire further range of the Pecheneg) is 1,5 times greater than that of the AK-47. And nothing obsolete everyone. I will not give foreign samples, there are a million of them.
      Is it hard to get from the AK-47 to the target? So the weapon must be made normal, balanced. Then it will work out. And if you cut out a piece of iron from a piece of iron which, with a not very high recoil force, twitches like an additive, then it really is a disaster. But where does the power of bestowal here? Maybe you need to review the design?
      Quote: _KM_
      Fedorov always wrote about this.

      Who-who wrote? Who the hell is that? What did he design, that he has the right to write something there?
      The force of bestowal should not be more than the maximum permissible. And that’s all. There are no more restrictions for a quality balanced weapon. And treating an unbalanced weapon by lowering the recoil force is at least stupid.
      Quote: _KM_
      And who established this "norm"? There is no such norm.

      Really? And how is an assault rifle different from an automatic one? The name Hitler came up with? Still, it is advisable to think first and then write.
      Quote: _KM_
      And it has already been discussed repeatedly.

      Who and where? "Sofa constructors" on such forums? It's not even worth mentioning.
      Quote: _KM_
      Including the advantages of a flat trajectory for army weapons

      Flatness is an interesting, but not very important element of performance characteristics. At least you shouldn't bother with it. It is desirable that the weapon has good flatness. But not necessarily. To correct this "defect" there are pillars on the sights. You move them and the "defect" goes away.
      Quote: _KM_
      they, as military men and well-shooting people, realistically assess the potential of weapons.

      They can evaluate the full potential of the weapon in the same way as a polisher at the same shooting range. Who can do this realistically, I wrote to you above. But they can help in assessing the balance and ergonomics of weapons. Those. evaluate it from an applied point of view. Without far-reaching conclusions.
      Quote: _KM_
      Maybe this is a symptom or already a diagnosis?

      And what should I write, "in dusty helmets"? I do not like this. "In red pants" (there was such a fashion at certain times) I like more.
      1. forwarder
        forwarder 20 October 2015 15: 21 New
        -2
        Quote: gross kaput
        you yourself realize what nonsense you are and are afraid of a reasoned answer.

        Oh yeah. The reasoned answer is whipping from you. Yellow and towards the white stone.
        What, are you furious that you cannot, with the help of your clones, blame me? Rush, Rush. It’s good for you. And I will observe from the side.
        Quote: gross kaput
        the thickness of the torso of an adult male is 30-40 cm - that's bad luck huh?

        I want to upset you, but strange people called "doctors" brazenly claim that a human torso has a slightly different consistency than a ham. Consists of a few other ... components. And since the tablets are still gelatinous tests, imitating just a ham, then the "torso" should not be interfered with.
        Here you are the darkness of Paraguay. Even this you need to explain.
        Quote: gross kaput
        Admins Is it time to ban the troll?

        Wow. You are so merciless to yourself today.
        On my own, I’ll add to ban not only the gross kaput troll itself, but also all of its many clones. I did not count, but I think with a good dozen typed. If the whole gang is banned and their cons burn, then I have a rating, I think that there will be + 1000000. And even more.
  • _KM_
    _KM_ 20 October 2015 14: 46 New
    0
    Quote: forwarder
    Who-who wrote? Who the hell is that? What did he design, that he has the right to write something there?


    After this discussion can be completed. Keep writing more about the red pants. You understand them better than weapons.
  • forwarder
    forwarder 20 October 2015 15: 08 New
    -4
    Quote: _KM_
    You understand them better than weapons.

    Precisely because I understand weapons, I ask you, who is Fedorov and what he invented? And you have nothing to answer. Because that miserable craft, which he cut out of a piece of iron, can hardly be called a weapon. And you don't have to listen to the opinion of the "manufacturer of the samopal". It is not interesting to anyone.
  • gross kaput
    gross kaput 20 October 2015 21: 39 New
    +2
    Quote: forwarder
    who is Fedorov and what did he invent?
    That's what a major general (and first RI and then the USSR) Fedorov, a recognized firearms specialist who wrote a lot of good books on the topic that are translated into many languages, is rightfully considered one of the founders of the national weapons school, thanks to which he managed to launch in 1920 Mr. Kovrov machine gun factory, which had many students, including Degtyarev, a member of the GAU Standing Committee on new models of small arms, etc. etc.
    And who is Kuptsov? a shop loader by profession, suffering from alcohol addiction and schizophrenia, in the intervals between hard drinking and treatment in a durku, the delusional "work" "strange history of weapons," which was sprinkled in between, the surname of this character in the circles of people versed in weapons has become a household name - "merchants" ie wild heresy and delirium.

    Quote: forwarder
    they brazenly claim that the torso of a person has a slightly different consistency than a ham. Consists of a few other ... components
    judging by the number of "ochepyatok" the client is again in a binge? I hope you will be taken away for three months this time. well, if you touch the ham so beloved by this character - probably his childhood was difficult and the ham was not a realizable dream - well, you know, the ham is not very similar in design to gelatin - there is also a bone laughing
    Quote: forwarder
    On my own, I’ll add to ban not only the gross kaput troll itself, but also all of its many clones.
    exactly in a binge, and even quite a while ago, because paranoid hallucinations are part of alcoholic psychosis that develops only after several days of binge. laughing
    and why a dozen - take more - I have 17 pluses - each of my clones gave me a plus, or you can count 000 minuses differently - each of my clones gave you a minus, in total I have at least 2000 clones. Or maybe everything is much simpler? and I, unlike you, do not carry nonsense? Think about it at your leisure with your "shell shock" laughing
  • forwarder
    forwarder 20 October 2015 22: 12 New
    -3
    Quote: gross kaput
    That's what a major general is (and first RI and then the USSR)

    I do not need to describe his biography. I know her better than yours. I didn’t ask him for a biography, but asked a very clear question: WHAT DOES THIS PEPPER CREATE CREATED IN ORDER TO BE CONSIDERABLE TO BE CONSIDERABLE DESIGNER OF A SHOOT WEAPON? And the right answer NOTHING CREATED ANYTHING. For his little bullet AF is not even worth a discussion. For reasons, see my comments upstream.
    But generals and even marshals in the USSR were like dogs. Listen to everyone, it makes no sense.
    Quote: gross kaput
    Fedorov, a recognized specialist in firearms who has written many good books on the topic, which are translated into many languages, is rightfully considered one of the founders of the national weapons school

    Really? Who is recognized? You? This is an argument.
    What languages? Chukchi, Evenk and Sami? Who in the world was interested in what the "designers of the Soviet school of small arms" think? They never created a normal weapon. Why then ask for their opinion?
    You are an amazing dreamer. Rare.
    Quote: gross kaput
    thanks to him, he managed to launch the Kovrov machine gun factory in 1920

    Do not la la. You find free ears and hang your noodles there. I already know how they said goodbye to him there with the help of a knee in the ass. Sent tries together with his fart. And I must say, this decision was amazingly true and wise.
    Quote: gross kaput
    Member of the Standing Commission on GAU on new models of small arms, etc. etc.

    Those. you are trying to pass off an official as a designer. Oh well. Why don't you refer to Kulik's works? He was an even larger official. And not a general, but a marshal. True, he was shot. Has this made its "design weight" less?
    No, you are definitely a big dreamer.
    Quote: gross kaput
    And who is the Merchants?

    Should I know this? Why do I need this?
    Quote: gross kaput
    judging by the number of "ochepyatok" the client is again in a binge?

    Well, at least you do not persist in the fact that the consistency of the human torso is the same as the ham. Already commendable. You start to recover. Congratulations.
    Quote: gross kaput
    the ham is not very similar in design to gelatin - there is also a bone there

    In places. But in places it is not. Just like the gelatin model.
    Quote: gross kaput
    exactly in a binge, and even a long time ago, because paranoid hallucinations are part of alcoholic psychosis that develops only after a few days of binge

    The vocabulary of a specialist is felt. I'm scared for you. How do you know such words? So said the doctor who examined you for the last time? It seems like that.
  • Alex1977RUS
    Alex1977RUS 20 November 2015 20: 08 New
    0
    Quote: Grizli-666
    Quote: Sergey-8848
    But the translation !!! Apparently, the program translated, and the authors then forgot to attach a hand to editing


    I agree, especially pleased with this signature "No one could have guessed that for the first stage of World War II, German soldiers would be called upon to use the HK G 36 when the weapon was introduced in 1997"
    Either there was an eyelid and meant the third world, or we are talking about a time machine (then the surprise is understandable :))

    Apparently Promt steers. IMHO, the text should be like this - No one could have guessed that for the first time since the start of World War II, German soldiers would use the G-36 in combat, a weapon developed only in 1997.
    In general, I agree, the purest policy, even to an amateur it is clear that if the problems are so fatal, it is enough to increase the barrel thickness by half a millimeter, make fins and slots in the forend for cooling. This is just so, offhand. Well, there will be a gram two hundred heavier ...
    This is not a machine gun, the requirements are different.
    This is all accomplished directly in the troops, and the costs of any order of magnitude less than the adoption of a new rifle.