Military Review

LNG for LRE

87
Fuel from the kitchen burner is very effective for rocket engines


The rocket and space world at a crossroads: global trends require lower cost and increase the environmental safety of space services. Designers have to invent new liquid-propellant rocket engines (LRE) on environmentally friendly fuels, replacing expensive, extremely energy-intensive liquid hydrogen with cheap liquefied natural gas (LNG) with a methane content of 90 – 98 percent. This fuel paired with liquid oxygen allows you to create new high-performance and low-cost engines with maximum use of existing elements of design, material, technological and production reserve.

LNG is not poisonous; when it is burned in oxygen, water vapor and carbon dioxide are formed. Unlike kerosene, which is widely used in rocket technology, the LNG straits quickly evaporate without harming the environment.

First trials


The ignition temperature of natural gas with air and the lower limit of its explosive concentration is higher than that of hydrogen and kerosene vapor, therefore, in the area of ​​low concentrations, compared to other hydrocarbon fuels, it is less explosive.

In general, the operation of LNG as a rocket fuel does not require any additional fire and explosion prevention measures that have not been applied previously.

LNG density is six times higher than liquid hydrogen, but two times lower than kerosene. Lower density leads to a corresponding increase in the size of the LNG tank compared to a kerosene tank. However, given the higher cost ratios of the oxidizer and fuel (approximately 3,5 to 1 for liquid oxygen (LN) + LNG fuel and 2,7 to 1 for LCD and kerosene fuel), the total amount of fuel, LCD + LNG, increases only percent on 20. Taking into account the effect of cryogenic hardening of the material, as well as the possibility of combining the bottom of tanks LCD and LNG weighting of fuel tanks will be relatively small.

And finally, the production and transportation of LNG has long been mastered.

The chemical engineering engineering design bureau (Khimmash Design Bureau) named after A. Isaev in Korolyov near Moscow began work (as it turned out, stretching for years due to very scarce financing) on ​​the development of “LCD + LNG” fuel in 1994, when the design - design studies and a decision was made to create a new engine using the schematic design base of the existing oxygen-hydrogen 1 7,5 tf engine, successfully operated as part of the upper stage (Cryogenic Upper Stage) 12KRB of the Indian GSLV MkI launch vehicle (Geos ynchronous satellite launch vehicle).

LNG for LRE


In 1996, autonomous fire tests of the gas generator on the LCD and natural gas as components of the fuel took place, with the aim of mainly checking the start-up and stable operation modes - 13 inclusions confirmed the gas generator's performance and gave results that were used in the development of regenerative gas generators working on open and closed schemes.

In August-September of 1997, a chemical test of the KVD 1 engine steering block (also using natural gas instead of hydrogen) was carried out in KB Himmash, in which the chamber deflected in two planes at an angle of ± 39,5 degrees (thrust - 200 kgf, pressure in the chamber - 40 kg / cm2), start and stop fittings, pyrotechnic ignition system and electric drives - one regular steering unit KVD1 passed six starts with a total operating time of more than 450 seconds and a chamber pressure in the 42 – 36 range kg / cm2. The test results confirmed the possibility of creating a small-sized chamber using natural gas as a cooler.

In August, 1997 of the year, Khimmash Design Bureau began firing tests of a full-size engine of a closed circuit with an 7,5 vehicle mass on the LCD + LNG fuel. The basis for the manufacture was the modified KVD1 engine of a closed circuit with afterburning of reducing gas-generating gas and cooling the chamber with fuel.

The standard oxidizer pump KVD1 was modified: the diameter of the pump impeller is increased to provide the necessary ratio of the oxidizer and fuel pump pressure. Also carried out the adjustment of the hydraulic settings of the engine lines to ensure the calculated ratio of components.

The use of a prototype engine that previously passed a fire test series on “LCD + liquid hydrogen” fuel ensured a maximum reduction in research costs.

Cold tests allowed to work out the method of preparing the engine and stand for fire work in terms of providing the required LNG parameters in bench tanks, cooling the oxidizer and fuel lines to temperatures that ensure reliable operation of the pumps during the starting period and stable and steady start of the engine.

The first fire test of the engine took place on 22 on August 1997 of the year at the stand of the enterprise, which is today called the Scientific and Testing Center of the Rocket and Space Industry (SIC RCP). In the practice of Khimmash Design Bureau, these tests were the first experience of using LNG as a fuel of a full-size, closed-circuit engine.

The task of the test was to obtain a successful result by reducing the parameters and easing the engine operating conditions.

The control of the mode output and mode operation was carried out using thrust regulators and the ratio of fuel component costs using the 1 KVD algorithms, taking into account the mutual influence of control channels.

The program of the first fire test engine closed circuit was completely implemented. The engine has worked the specified time, there were no comments on the condition of the material part.

The test results confirmed the fundamental possibility of using the LNG oxygen-hydrogen engine in the aggregates as a fuel.

A lot of gas - no coke


Further tests were continued in order to more thoroughly study the processes associated with the use of LNG, test the operation of engine units under wider conditions of use, and optimize design solutions.

In total, five fire tests of two KVD 1997 engines, adapted for the use of LCD + LNG fuel, lasting from 2005 to 1 seconds, the content of methane in LNG from 17 to 60 percent, passed from 89,3 to 99,5.

In general, the results of these tests allowed to determine the basic principles of the development of the engine and its units using the “LCD + LNG” fuel and move to the next stage of research in 2006, involving the development, manufacture and testing of the С5.86 engine. The combustion chamber, the gas generator, the turbopump assembly and the regulating organs of the latter are structurally and parametrically made specifically for operation on the “LC + LNG” fuel.

By 2009, two fire tests of С5.86 engines with a duration of 68 and 60 seconds were carried out with methane content in LNG 97,9 and 97,7 percent.

Positive results were obtained on the launch and shutdown of rocket engine, operation in steady-state modes of propulsion and the ratio of fuel components (in accordance with control actions). But one of the main tasks - experimental verification of the absence of accumulation of solid phase in the cooling path of the chamber (coke) and in the gas path (soot) with sufficiently long inclusions - could not be performed due to the limited amount of bench LNG tanks (maximum activation time was 68 seconds ). Therefore, in 2010, the decision was made to retrofit a test bench for conducting fire tests with a duration of at least 1000 seconds.

As a new workplace, the SEC RCP stand was used for testing oxygen-hydrogen LPRE, which has capacities of the corresponding volume. In preparation for the test was taken into account significant experience previously obtained during the seven fire tests. During the period from June to September 2010, bench systems of liquid hydrogen were refined for use of LNG, the С5.86 engine No. 2 was installed on the stand, comprehensive inspections of measurement systems, control, emergency protection, control of the ratio of fuel consumption and pressure in the combustion chamber were conducted.

Refueling of bench containers with fuel was carried out from the tanker transport tank (volume - 56,4 м3 with refueling 16 т) with the help of a block of refueling LNG, including a heat exchanger, filters, stop valves, measuring instruments. After the filling of the tanks was completed, the bench lines for supplying the fuel components to the engine became chilled and filled.

The engine started and worked fine. Mode changes occurred in accordance with the effects of the control system. With 1100 seconds, the gas-generating gas temperature was constantly increasing, as a result of which it was decided to stop the engine. The shutdown took place on command at 1160 second without comment. The reason for the increase in temperature was the leakage that occurred during the test of the exhaust manifold of the cooling chamber of the combustion chamber - a crack in the weld of the plugged technological fitting installed on the manifold.

Analysis of the results of the fire test allowed to conclude:

-in the process of operation, the engine parameters were stable in the modes with various combinations of the ratio of fuel component costs (2,42 to 1 - 3,03 to 1) and thrust (6311 - 7340 kgf);
- confirmed the absence of solid phase formations in the gas path and the absence of coke deposits in the liquid path of the engine;
- necessary experimental data were obtained to clarify the method for calculating the cooling of the combustion chamber when using LNG as a cooler;
- the dynamics of the exit of the cooling path of the combustion chamber to the steady-state thermal regime was investigated;
- confirmed the correctness of technical solutions to ensure the launch, control, regulation, and other things, taking into account the characteristics of LNG;
5.86 developed by С7,5 can be used (alone or in combination) as a cruising engine in promising boosters and upper stages of the launch vehicles;
-positive results of fire tests confirmed the feasibility of further experiments to create an engine on the fuel "LCD + LNG".

At the next fire test in 2011, the engine was turned on twice. Before the first shutdown, the engine worked for 162 seconds. On the second start, which was carried out to confirm the absence of formations of a solid phase in the gas path and coke deposits in the liquid path, a record duration of engine operation of this dimension was achieved with a single switch-on - 2007 seconds, and the throttling potential was confirmed. The test was terminated on the development of fuel components. The total operating time of this engine instance was 3389 seconds (four starts). The performed fault detection confirmed the absence of solid and coke formations in the engine paths.

The complex of theoretical and experimental work with С5.86 No. 2 confirmed:

- the fundamental possibility of creating the engine of the required dimensions on the fuel pair of components "LCD + LNG" with the afterburning of regenerative generator gas, ensuring the maintenance of stable performance and the practical absence of the solid phase in the gas paths and coke deposits in the liquid paths of the engine;
-the possibility of multiple start and stop the engine;
-the possibility of continuous engine operation;
-the correctness of the adopted technical decisions to ensure multiple start-up, control, regulation, taking into account the peculiarities of LNG and emergency protection;
-the ability of the SEC RCP stand to conduct long-term tests.


Together with SIC RCP, the technology of transporting, refueling and thermostating large masses of LNG was developed and technological solutions practically applicable to the procedure for refueling flight products were developed.

LNG - the way to reusable flights

Due to the fact that components and assemblies of the C5.86 engine demonstrator No. 2 were not optimized due to limited funding, the number of tasks was not fully resolved, including:

refinement of the thermophysical properties of LNG as a cooler;
obtaining additional data to verify the convergence of the characteristics of the main units in the simulation of water and work on LNG;
experimental verification of the possible influence of the composition of natural gas on the characteristics of the main aggregates, including the cooling paths of the combustion chamber and the gas generator;
determination of the characteristics of the LRE in a wider range of changes in operating modes and basic parameters for both single and multiple inclusions;
optimization of dynamic processes at startup.


To solve these problems, Khimmash Design Bureau manufactured the upgraded С5.86А engine No. 2А, the turbopump unit of which was equipped for the first time with a starting turbine, upgraded with the main turbine and a fuel pump. The cooling path of the combustion chamber has been upgraded and the throttle needle of the fuel ratio has been redesigned.

The fire test of the engine was carried out on 13 on September 2013 of the year (methane content in LNG - 94,6%). The test program involved three inclusions with a total duration of 1500 seconds (1300 + 100 + 100). The engine was started and operated normally, however, at 532 second, the emergency protection system formed an emergency shutdown command. The cause of the accident was the ingress of an extraneous metal particle into the flow part of the oxidizer pump.

Despite the accident, С5.86А № XNUMHA worked for a long time. For the first time, the engine was launched for use as part of a rocket stage that requires multiple start-ups according to the implemented scheme using an onboard refillable pressure accumulator. A stable operation mode was obtained for a given mode according to the load and the maximum ratio of fuel component costs previously implemented. The possible reserves for forcing the thrust and increasing the cost ratio of the fuel components are determined.

Now Khimmash Design Bureau is completing the production of a new C5.86 instance for testing for the maximum possible resource in terms of operation time and number of inclusions. It should become a prototype of a real engine on “LCD + LNG” fuel, which will give a new quality to the upper stages of launch vehicles and breathe life into reusable transport systems. With their help, space will be available not only for researchers and inventors, but, perhaps, just for travelers.
Author:
Originator:
http://vpk-news.ru/articles/27513
87 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must to register.

I have an account? Sign in

  1. ziqzaq
    ziqzaq 17 October 2015 07: 47 New
    +3
    Thank you for the article! Serious space exploration will begin only with the use of reusable transport systems ..
    1. wk
      wk 17 October 2015 14: 18 New
      +2
      Quote: ziqzaq
      Serious space exploration will begin only with the use of reusable transport systems ..

      serious space exploration will begin with the development of a ROW (nuclear engine) giving a speed in space of the order of 60 - 100 km / s of speed .... and the development of the first stages of a rocket (possibly returnable reusable) using ordinary fuel (for obvious reasons) on new physical principles ( short-term explosive-detonation) which will increase the efficiency by an order of magnitude .... this requires a lot of work, as about programs, power systems, new materials for higher loads.
      1. gridasov
        gridasov 17 October 2015 14: 28 New
        0
        These are all common phrases that do not rely on a sufficiently comprehensive understanding of what nuclear fuel is. Therefore, radioactive materials can only be an integral part of a complex process that can enhance or attenuate the final effects. But not like the fuel itself or the source of the reaction, because the whole system and those final results that are necessary are not considered
        1. wk
          wk 17 October 2015 14: 48 New
          0
          Quote: gridasov
          These are all common phrases not based

          on the Internet there is enough information about the NRE and their specific schematic design .... their characteristics of the ITD Do you want me to post it in a short comment ... who are probably interested.
          1. gridasov
            gridasov 17 October 2015 15: 09 New
            0
            I didn’t mean to offend you. And if that happened, then I apologize. The information is really enough to understand that there is no integrated approach to solving the complex problem.
            1. crazyrom
              crazyrom 18 October 2015 03: 09 New
              0
              The text is not particularly clear about this, but after all, the gas is not supposed to need a pump? Can you just warm up the tank and the pressure will squeeze out the gas itself, or not? Naturally, not the whole tank is boiled, but a slight resistance, say, is heated, gas evaporates there and creates pressure.
              1. Izotovp
                Izotovp 18 October 2015 09: 34 New
                +1
                Propane and methane are very dependent on temperature in the liquid state, and a reducer-evaporator is needed, while in a gaseous one, a pressure-regulating reducer is needed. Both gases are quite sensitive to the settings of these devices.
        2. The comment was deleted.
      2. Izotovp
        Izotovp 17 October 2015 14: 56 New
        +3
        Explosion-detonation is good, but it will not give a significant increase in power compared to existing jet engines and are now considered promising for jet engines. There is nothing essentially new and other fundamental physical principles in them. These engines have long been known and calculated, just materials science could only grow to them now. ROW, again for deep space, and surface-space carriers are needed. The development of carriers goes only in the forehead: more fuel, more power. Here, comrade Gridasov is right in his search for a different level.
        At the moment, I know only one scheme of a fusion engine based on detonation of a deuterium-lithium target with a laser or ultrasound, but this, again, is only suitable for deep space.
        1. wk
          wk 17 October 2015 15: 15 New
          +1
          Quote: Izotovp
          Explosion-detonation is good, but will not give a significant increase in power compared to existing jet engines

          but perhaps it will give greater fuel and oxidizer savings, and, as a result, a proportional increase in the payload relative to the mass of the carrier .... and the power to gain comic 1st and 2nd are sufficient now .... a large rate of climb does not allow a manned flight ... The main thing is to put into a low orbit the boxes of stations with descent vehicles capable of launching from other planets with reserves of the working substance for the NOW, the NOW themselves can work for years without a reboot and other reserves ... there is a problem of protecting a person from space p admiration (as far as it is known has not been resolved yet) ...... and most importantly, the will to large projects, and not to cut money for international cooperation!
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. gridasov
          gridasov 17 October 2015 15: 19 New
          0
          Again, in the context of this discussion, it is necessary to say that the initiation of the physical process by some laser or other methods is not permissible. Firstly, this should be due to new energy sources. In addition, this requires a set of related organizational processes at all levels. Therefore, in brief, it is necessary to talk about such process algorithms that can be organized optimally simply and easily. With the highest degree of quality factor of the installation and the absence of disruption of the process. These and many other very important aspects are worth and can already be said. In addition, it is worthwhile to understand that in space and in the absence of external gravitational influence, many substances, if not all behave independently and are completely different, and also exhibit different properties in interactions. All this and much more must be taken into account.
          1. Izotovp
            Izotovp 17 October 2015 15: 40 New
            0
            We not only did not approach this, but also to an understanding of the influence of the form of an object on its properties. This is so, by the way. smile
            The influence of the absence of gravity in the development of nuclear reactors was taken into account in the USSR during the creation of Topaz and during the creation of the reactor according to the Martian program.
            1. gridasov
              gridasov 17 October 2015 15: 54 New
              +1
              I can only say that there is no complete understanding of the topology of space, which considers the distribution of elementary potential in elementary space. There are no methods and methods for determining its exact dimension and, moreover, the interaction of this local space with others. Therefore, in the torus, namely on its basis, many fundamental physical processes are modeled. to put it mildly, everything is done quite the opposite. Therefore, it is energy-consuming, labor-intensive, time-consuming to create and the results of such studies will always remain private solutions in the total complex space. In general, this is a separate issue.
              1. Izotovp
                Izotovp 17 October 2015 19: 52 New
                0
                At the end of the second year, we were given the very beginning of the topology of space: field mathematics, but without reference to the physical properties and moteds of taking these properties into account when designing engines and spacecraft. And I’m afraid that the vast majority of my fellow students didn’t even think about it (((. And only people working on the thermonuclear think very much about such things as density, directivity, pulsation frequency and turbulence of energy flows. Understanding that this can Einstein only had an influence on the dimensionality of space. Ours tried to repeat it, but, such an impression, on the forehead, purely mechanically, without understanding the physics of the process. And how to limit this flow to the geometry of the apparatus and protect the crew was not decided.
                1. gridasov
                  gridasov 17 October 2015 20: 02 New
                  0
                  Only Einstein’s equation can contain so many parameters that it’s not enough for a book, and it is written down with three parameters. Moreover, everyone knows and understands that the essence of ENERGY itself lies in the dynamic process of transforming one level of the state of a certain topological space into another. Energy cannot be expressed by the concept of a particular mathematical solution. I hope everyone understands this. Therefore, it is impossible to solve the problems of analysis of energy, and even more so high-potential physical. processes and at the same time neglecting the dimension of all the participating aspects of the analysis, the vector, momentum and direction of achieving the goal, etc., if we want to get a result. We must not just take all this into account, but subject it to analysis as interconnected processes. Maybe this is not so?
                  1. Izotovp
                    Izotovp 17 October 2015 20: 36 New
                    0
                    Or to reduce the system to at least three systems of equations: the resulting equation of the interiors of the spacecraft, the resulting equation of the external environment before, during and after the change and the equation of energy flows that change the metric and coordinates in dynamics ... Therefore, Einstein complained about the lack of software and computing power.
                    1. gridasov
                      gridasov 17 October 2015 20: 49 New
                      0
                      Using these mathematical methods combining a set of equations, low-potential physical processes can be analyzed. High-potential processes, and even more so the processes transforming into different levels of the energy state, cannot be analyzed by such methods. In addition, the essence of the analysis process itself is that any highlighted, as a mathematical solution, must have a set of comparative events at all levels. Starting from the most contrasting in one direction or another and across all levels of dimension. Otherwise, it will not be known in what relative position of the process we are and whether we are moving in accordance with our tasks.
                      1. Izotovp
                        Izotovp 17 October 2015 21: 08 New
                        +1
                        We run into the power of the mathematical apparatus, but this is a technical issue and not as complicated as the formulation of the mathematical problem itself.
                      2. gridasov
                        gridasov 17 October 2015 21: 45 New
                        +1
                        Unfortunately, it is not yet appropriate to reveal all the details, but I will correct you that the fundamental questions of all the properties of numbers have not yet been resolved. And the issue is not about capacity. I am not talking at all about theory as such. So all of us and mathematicians use a complex of properties of numbers, which rely on their function as a variable value. We divide, multiply, etc. - we carry out the processes of interaction with numbers. BUT !!! We are not using a number function that defines it as a constant and independent value. Do not let this confuse you. Nobody knows this and there is no analogy anywhere. There are not even historical artifacts, except for the thirteen-digit nat. a number of Maya numbers. And then it becomes clear only now that nat. the rows can be different and thus they expand the capacity of the system. Ie the question cannot be seen from the "past". So that's it. The function of a number and its constant value has an incredible ability to construct an "inseparable digitized space" that is dynamic in the algorithms for the movement of these numbers. In which there is both the vectorial nature of the flows of numbers and their potential. And only on the basis of such methodologies is it possible to describe highly dynamic processes not only in hydrodynamics and electric. magnetic interactions, but in general everything that we are able to perceive as information.
                      3. Izotovp
                        Izotovp 18 October 2015 09: 43 New
                        +1
                        Such. we did not consider the properties of numbers at the Academy, after all, just engineers, bolts. Ballistics also did not say anything like that. I read something similar but at a very basic level myself. Unfortunately, there is not much such information in a digestible form.
                      4. gridasov
                        gridasov 18 October 2015 10: 16 New
                        0
                        I will explain the essence of such a methodology. It operates on the "capacitive" parameters of the information system. This means there is no restriction on the incoming and outgoing channels, it detects the properties of numerical series, within the system, to determine their direction and hence the vector. Since numbers are inherently individual in meaning, the property of co-relativity or polarization is revealed. The essence of the "capacitance" itself is determined by the fact that data of unlimited, in all types, parameters are entered into the system. That is, not as it is done now - a positive value is introduced and, to put it mildly, a significant value. Since any particular definition is a system located in all axes of interdetermination with numbers in algorithmic flows along all other axes of coordinates, then it is analytical. That is, it is not defined only by the binary evaluation logic. The system works only with integer values, so in calculations it does not allow errors at any level of calculations. The main principle of the system is that, with a minimum of input and obvious data, it is able to build a CAMA complex of all other interconnected digitized processes based on their harmonious relationship.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • War and Peace
    War and Peace 17 October 2015 15: 24 New
    +2
    7.5t is not serious, with such an engine it’s only to bounce on the spot, to do an engine of 300t or more, but this is only pampering ...
  • cosmos111
    cosmos111 17 October 2015 08: 01 New
    +2
    Alexey Yakovlev, chief designer for cryogenic engines of the Design Bureau of Chemical Engineering named after A.M. Isaev
    http://vpk-news.ru/articles/27513

    an interesting topic, but the use of LNG in the form of fuel for the liquid propellant ...

    on project financing: 2002-2005 joint work was carried out by the European space agency to create a European methane reusable rocket engine with a thrust of 200 tf (project "Volga")
    Since 2006, work has been underway to create a domestic reusable methane RD0162 rocket engine with a thrust of 203,9 tf for MRKS-1 ..

    RD0162 LRE (LNG)
    1. avt
      avt 17 October 2015 09: 31 New
      +2
      Quote: cosmos111
      interesting topic,

      Those who crawl into the budget are not the right word! I read it and just touched it right laughing ---
      A lower density leads to a corresponding increase in the size of the LNG tank compared to a kerosene tank. However, taking into account the higher ratio of oxidizer to fuel consumption (approximately 3,5 to 1 for fuel “liquid oxygen (LC) + LNG” and 2,7 to 1 for fuel “LCD + kerosene”), the total amount of refueling fuel is “LCD + LNG ”increases only by 20 percent. Considering the effect of cryogenic hardening of the material, as well as the possibility of combining the bottoms of the tanks of the LCD and LNG, the weighting of the fuel tanks will be relatively small.
      Well, this comparison is -
      The rocket and space world is at a crossroads: global trends demand lower costs and increased environmental safety of space services. Designers have to invent new liquid-propellant rocket engines (LRE) using environmentally friendly fuels, replacing expensive, extremely energy-intensive liquid hydrogen with cheap liquefied natural gas (LNG) with a methane content of 90–98 percent.
      laughing laughing Feels experienced hand RRast! laughing By the way - the author will not tell Az to the sinful - why is this hydrogen used as fuel? Well, in comparison with the received draft of a carrier of the same class?
      1. cosmos111
        cosmos111 17 October 2015 10: 33 New
        +1
        Quote: avt
        By the way - the author will not tell Az to the sinful - why is this hydrogen used as fuel

        the author is unlikely ... the idea of ​​using LNG in the form of fuel is: low cost of LNG itself and the possibility of long storage - there is no extreme cryogenics, plus there are no troubles from hydrogen + it is planned to make LNG on LNG a reusable / partially reusable carrier ...

        RD-192С thrust at the ground-194 t.s. (data are given in tables, see below)

        if LRE are created in 500 t.s. with a launch mass of two thousand tons, this will make it possible to put about 40-50 tons into low Earth orbit ((which SyShyA supposedly did with its super-duper Russian Railways F-1 (790 t.s.) what
        1. avt
          avt 17 October 2015 10: 49 New
          +3
          Quote: cosmos111
          LNG plans to make a reusable / partially reusable carrier ...

          And what's so disruptive? What is the relationship between LNG and reusability? This is for snotty suckers who have a virgin brain. The only advertised plus is the relative cheapness to operate. Only who thought how much money should be spent on switching to LNG for the sake of a penny, "saving" with the loss of power? It's all the rustle of nuts in the bazaar, well, from that joke about a man who sold them at a loss - "I love the rustle of nuts", but only such a man is the space program, but the developers of this wunder technology in chocolate from budget money.
          Quote: cosmos111
          how economically viable are LNG LREs ???

          Yes, not how much, and we will also lose the dough on redesigning ground vehicles when switching to engines for LNG. There is NOTHING breakthrough, in comparison with the existing and used systems so far, this technology simply does not give a prospect that it will not. So far, NOBODY has really explained how LNG will surpass hydrogen in terms of calorific value. The author is when you invent some kind of cheap solid gas hydrate, , high-calorie ", and besides, it will be safe to roll in pieces in the warehouse and it will be safe to fill it with a shovel into the tank wassat , then come and rejoice from the bottom of our hearts for "breakthrough technologies".
          1. cosmos111
            cosmos111 17 October 2015 17: 32 New
            0
            Quote: avt
            And what is so breakthrough? What is the relationship between LNG and refillability?

            Who said about breakthrough technologists ??? LNG ha LNG T will provide technological simplicity and economic efficiency, reliability with a relatively simple design, and the ability to dispense with quick and inexpensive inter-flight service....

            connection with reusability is not what .... just competitors on the approach reusable rocket engines (I stage)
            http://www.spacenews.com/article/military-space/38138darpa%E2%80%99s-xs-1-experi
            mental-spaceplane-call-for-proposals-eyes-a-2018
            http://echo.msk.ru/blog/nnnikitin/1205973-echo/

            by calorie NO, BUT
            low cost of LNG itself and the possibility of long storage - there is no extreme cryogenics, plus there is no trouble from hydrogen
            1. avt
              avt 17 October 2015 23: 35 New
              0
              Quote: cosmos111
              connection with reusability is not what .... just competitors on the approach reusable rocket engines (I stage)

              The most optimal variant of "reusability" is what the "Spiral" was working on and if it were not for the interdepartmental struggle of "pure" missilemen with the MAP .... requestAlthough, if the Lord's will and opportunity were there, it would be worth taking a closer look at who actually started this squabble between the ministers.
              1. Izotovp
                Izotovp 18 October 2015 00: 37 New
                0
                It was not a matter of interagency struggle, but they could not make a hypersonic booster in the form of an airplane. The rocket turned out to be cheaper in the form of the first stage, from where the working Energy-Buran completely grew.
        2. War and Peace
          War and Peace 17 October 2015 15: 35 New
          +2
          Quote: cosmos111
          then supposedly already made SyShyA, with its super-duper Russian Railways F-1 (790 tf


          enough, F1-700t from a place ...
        3. War and Peace
          War and Peace 17 October 2015 15: 35 New
          +1
          Quote: cosmos111
          then supposedly already made SyShyA, with its super-duper Russian Railways F-1 (790 tf


          enough, F1-700t from a place ...
          1. gridasov
            gridasov 17 October 2015 15: 40 New
            +1
            a positive result is hardly possible. Because, again, they are based on the principles of not obtaining ultra-high energy density, but due to large-scale transformations. It is obvious!
  • cosmos111
    cosmos111 17 October 2015 08: 40 New
    +1
    The Design Bureau of Chemical Engineering (Design Bureau of Chemical Engineering) named after A.M. Isaev in the Queen of Moscow Region has begun work ........ on the development of fuel "LCD + LNG


    Since 1981, NPO Energomash named after academician V.P. Glushko has been working on the topic of LRE for LNG, for heavy, light and middle class rockets .... in thrust: from 1 kgf to 200 those ....
    based on the prototype RD-191, RD-192, RD-192С with the afterburning of the oxidizing generator gas are presented;
    RD-192.2 with afterburning of regenerative generator gas and RD-192.3 without afterburning of generator gas;
    Based on the prototype RD-120K, RD-182 with afterburning of oxidative generator gas is presented.
    ... the calculated characteristics of the oxygen-methane LPRE RD-190 and RD-185 are given, formed using the RD-169 propulsion module, which does not have a prototype and is made according to the scheme with the afterburning of the oxidizing generator gas.
    At present, a draft design of the RD1 engine module has been developed for the Riksha-169 light class LV, which is used both for the RD-190 stage I engine (six RD-169 engine modules) and the RD-185 stage II engine (high-altitude modification propulsion module RD-169).
    Also for the Riksha launch vehicle, a preliminary design of the RD-183 marching engine and the RD184 orientation engine for the apogee propulsion system has been developed.
    ... DM - single-chamber liquid-propellant rocket engine with pumped fuel supply, in various versions used in propulsion systems of both stages of launch vehicles and side accelerators. DM (or its chamber) is mobile and has two rotational degrees of freedom. DMs have three types of thrust: small (10 ... 30 tf), medium (70 ... 90 tf) and large (190 ... 220 tf), respectively, for small, medium and heavy classes of LV.
    http://aviapanorama.su/1998/08/metanovye-zhrd-npo-energomash-im-v-p-glushko/

    article from 22 August 1998
    1. cosmos111
      cosmos111 17 October 2015 08: 52 New
      0
      characteristics table: I stage II stage RD-120K RD-182 RD-191 RD-192 RD-192.2 RD-192.3 RD-192С
      fuel kerosene methane kerosene methane methane methane methane
      N Characteristics I stage
      RD-120K RD-182 RD-191 RD-192 RD-192.2 RD-192.3 RD-192С
      1 Fuel kerosene methane kerosene methane methane methane methane
      2 traction, tf:
      - Near the Earth 72 ... 78 * 74 ... 81 * 196 191 181 194
      - in the void 81 ... 89 * 83 ... 92 * 212 207,8 198 213 217
      3 Specific impulse, with:
      - Near the Earth 295 ... 298 * 311 ... 316 * 311 327,8 325 311
      - in the void 334 ... 336 * 351 ... 353 * 337 356 354 341 371,5
      4 chamber pressure,
      kgf / cm ^ 2 166 ... 175 * 166 ... 175 * 262 250 200 250 250
      5 Value
      2,6 3,4 2,6 3,5 3,5 3,0 3,5 components
      6 Duration
      single use, with> = 200
      7 Frequency of use> = 10
      8 Dimensions, m:
      height 2,8 2,8 4,05 3,62 3,62 3,62 4,82
      diameter 1,5 1,5 2,0 1,45 1,45 1,45 2,4
      9 Management
      thrust vector Rocking in two Rocking in two Rocking in two
      planes + 6 deg. planes + 8 deg. planes + 8 deg.
      10 Runtime
      from the start of financing 3 year 4 year 4 year
      11 Prototype RD-120 RD-120K RD-170, RD-191 RD-191
      RD-180
      RD-120K, RD-182, RD-191, RD-192- made with afterburning
      oxidative generator gas;
      RD-192.2 - made with afterburning recovery
      gas generator;
      RD-192.3 - made without afterburning of the generator gas;
      * - the range is received in connection with the possibility of change
      critical section of the nozzle and pressure in the chamber.
      Table 2.
      Characteristics of liquid rocket engines fueled by liquid oxygen - liquefied
      methane "for the launch vehicle of the Ricksha-1 complex.
      ----------------------
      http://www.voltaire.ru/press.php?article=20260
      1. cosmos111
        cosmos111 17 October 2015 09: 12 New
        0
        cost Soyuz-STB 85mln. $ cost RD-107 / 108 costs about 400ty. $,

        how economically viable are LNG LREs ???

        N Characteristics I stage II stage Apogee DN
        RD-169 RD-190 RD-185 RD-183 RD-184.
        (6 RD-169).
        1 traction, tf:
        - Earth 15 90.
        - in the void 17 102 18 1 0,0015.
        2 Specific momentum, s;
        - Earth 309 309.
        - in the void 351 351 378 360 322.
        3 chamber pressure,
        kgf / cm ^ 2 150 150 150 75 2.
        4 Value
        3,4 3,4 3,4 3,4 2,5 expenses.
        components.
        5 Duration.
        single use
        c> = 220> = 350> = 2010> = 2010.
        6 Number of Inclusions
        in flight 1 1> = 2> = 10 1.
        7 Frequency of use> = 10
        8 Dimensions, m:
        - height 1,7 1,7 3,3 1,15 0,240.
        - diameter 0,5 2,4 1,5 0,31 0,065.
        9 Office Swing Swing Swing Swing Swing Swing.
        a vector of two in two in two in two in two.
        thrust planes planes planes planes planes.
        +/- 8 city. each +/- 4 city. +/- 10 city. +/- 30 city ..
        camera
        +/- 8 city.
        10 Mining time from the start of the 4 year.
        financing.
        11 Status for 1998 year Draft design.
        // * Source of information: Aerial Panorama, 30.07.98
        // * Reg. No. - 1080700003.27 ----------------------------------------- -
        http://www.voltaire.ru/press.php?article=20260

        "" Sometimes it seems to me that we are devils who storm the heavens (c) von Braun "" "
        1. cosmos111
          cosmos111 17 October 2015 10: 45 New
          0
          The third company that develops LRE for LNG is: NIIMash (Samara) with engines "NK"

          at the Dvigatel-98 exhibition in June 1998, the FIG representatives announced that they were working on options for converting the NK-33 oxygen-kerosene engines for LNG ...
          “NK Engines” has gained extensive experience working with natural gas in relation to aviation - modifications of turbojet engines have been created there, which have passed flight tests on a Tu-155 laboratory airplane while working on liquid hydrogen and / or natural gas. Http: //www.iraq- war.ru/article/106212

          more info .. on the modification of NK-33 for LNG no ....
  • cosmos111
    cosmos111 17 October 2015 09: 52 New
    +1
    application of 3D printing, for production, elements of liquid propellant rocket engines, of course, a promising directionBUT economically at the moment is NOT profitable ....
    although in the future, when cheaper 3 D-printing, these technologies will be applied ....
    Americans are already mastering these technologies ...
    NASA and Florida-based research company Aerojet Rocketdyne have unveiled the results of testing the first rocket motor injector that was created using 3D printing technology ..
    Aerojet Rocketdyne also manufactures engine nozzles using high-power lasers as well as liquefied and molten metal powders. The construction of an injector for a rocket engine usually takes over a year, however, the use of 3D printing technology can reduce this period to four months, as well as reduce costs by 70 percent
    http://www.planetanovosti.com/news/nasa_planiruet_pechatat_raketnye_dvigateli_na
    _3d_printere/2013-07-20-1256

    here is a complete lie, from the company "Aerojet Rocketdyne" to reduce the time, and the MAIN cost by 70%, it will NOT learn ((at the moment ... in the future, maybe YES)))

    which inhibits the use of metal 3 D printing technologies: in order to pour even layers of powder with a thickness of 100 μm, precision mechanics are necessary ((uniform application of each subsequent layer of powder so that the lower layers do not move)))
    with special monofraction spherical powders, powder prices start from 50 Euro per kilogram ..
    the manufacture of a product weighing 1 kg takes tens of hours and all this time the laser is operating at full power 20-50 kW of electricity .....
  • Alex
    Alex 17 October 2015 11: 04 New
    +6
    Thanks to the author for an interesting article from a technical point of view, but environmental appeals were somewhat surprising, especially regarding hydrogen as a fuel. He didn’t please what? Absolutely non-toxic, when burning only water is obtained, the source (water) is practically inexhaustible, and the combustion product returns to it. As for the explosion and fire safety, for those scales of use in the event of a leak that hydrogen, that LNG - in any way, will not seem enough.
    1. avt
      avt 17 October 2015 11: 08 New
      +5
      Quote: Alex
      but appeals to ecology were a little surprised, especially concerning hydrogen as fuel. He didn’t please what?

      wassat Yes you CHO! wassat When oxidized in an engine with oxygen, a terribly toxic exhaust by water is obtained in comparison with the same combustion of gas! laughing One harm ... laughing
      1. sa-ag
        sa-ag 17 October 2015 11: 23 New
        +3
        Well, the specific impulse is a little more than 400 s
      2. gridasov
        gridasov 17 October 2015 12: 32 New
        0
        Right ! Just the stage of separation and after this interaction of the various components of this separated substance should be very short-lived. Look at how the analysis is carried out by all. You need to take fuel, you need to put it into a state. We get this and that. This is the process flow. And everything seems to be correct BUT! No one sees that each stage should be within its own framework in its transience. These stages are only the ability to understand their existence and understand the essence of their sequence. In reality, it will never be possible to separate them. It is the theoretical understanding of a highly dynamic process that is important. Therefore, the conclusion is that a simple substance of the medium is taken at the input, but all subsequent stages of its transformation with obtaining the corresponding effects occurs as an algorithm of natural transformation. As Tesla said - "with obtaining positive extremes at every stage." Without understanding the essence of the theoretical foundations, it is simply impossible to experimentally obtain this, according to my concepts. At each stage, destruction of the process and the device itself will simply occur. And everyone will fight for the quality factor of the device, but in the end it will disorganize the essence of the whole complex of the process.
        1. gridasov
          gridasov 17 October 2015 17: 54 New
          0
          Actually, I wonder what kind of backing tracks they are. For every word, for every meaningful thought, there is a complete justification. If this raises a question, then a trivial discussion is required. And if it’s just a minus, because I see, if I don’t bother to think, it’s just the equivalence of the Inquisition. Well, there’s no talk with idiots. But there is no progress !!!
  • gridasov
    gridasov 17 October 2015 11: 52 New
    +4
    The topic is often discussed on the pages of VO and I don't want to repeat it again. BUT you need! A complete conviction is created that modern designers of rocket engines do not have the ability to think comprehensively at all. They do not see the essence of the interactions of "hardware" - devices and energy processes in the environment of operation of engines and energy source-fuels. Everything is just like in the anecdote about the monkey - "Why think about jumping and that's it!" Therefore, first of all, new technologies of analysis are needed. The situation just needs to be rocked in all possible variations of solutions for the construction of new engines. And this is already a problem of intelligence. However, not everyone is capable of this. The Americans with all their mobilization power could not solve the problems of rocketry and "stole" Brown. The Russians also copied and only modernized the previously perfect and proposed ideas. And the truth must be faced. Where have we come to? Moreover, the level of requirements of modern times and circumstances does not correspond to the potential of manufacturers to create equivalent products. Therefore, heavy rockets will not fly into space !!! All!!! The level of technical solutions has reached an epogue. And this must be understood. Fundamentally new solutions and approaches to these solutions are needed. So. First of all, you need to understand what is the source of energy? And since we exist in an environment of density of certain basic substances, then the solutions are very simple. Fuel is simply asked to be converted into devices. You don't have to look for it. It's around. It remains only to adjust the conditions for the properties of this energy source, which can be transformed and obtained pronounced effects. There cannot be many people with an understanding of deep fundamental processes in their transformations. There are few of them for very long periods of time. Therefore, we must first of all look for people who are able not only to see and feel these processes, but also capable of substantiating their essence and methods of use.
    1. sa-ag
      sa-ag 17 October 2015 12: 17 New
      0
      Quote: gridasov
      Fuel simply asks for a device for converting it. He does not have to look. It is around.

      It is scattered
      1. gridasov
        gridasov 17 October 2015 12: 18 New
        -1
        Well, you understand correctly !!! What should be done?
      2. ivanovbg
        ivanovbg 17 October 2015 16: 20 New
        +1
        Quote: sa-ag
        Quote: gridasov
        Fuel simply asks for a device for converting it. He does not have to look. It is around.

        It is scattered

        Quote: sa-ag
        Quote: gridasov
        Fuel simply asks for a device for converting it. He does not have to look. It is around.

        It is scattered


        Please tell the amateur - what kind of fuel?
        1. gridasov
          gridasov 17 October 2015 17: 27 New
          0
          Well, first of all, on the pages of the discussion, we are all equal, except for rude ones. Secondly, you make me repeat myself. The near-earth atmosphere is composed of water and air. These are the basic substances of our habitat. At the same time, the air not only at a certain level is a substance, but also at another level also has moisture. All this creates a complex system of existence for both man and all that is created for it. The presence of water in the air as a systemic relationship is determined by the need to move atmospheric flows so that there is no stagnation. But topological space also has such properties as vectoriality or polarization of each material part of space in relation to a polarized medium. That is, the "Faraday cage" is polarized in such a way that each material body forms polarization on the outer shell of contact with the environment. And in space and outside the atmosphere, the opposite is true. Therefore, by the way, sending each living space vehicle into space, it must be "re-polarized". Etc. The structure of the substance of the atmosphere is such that in its laminar state it is inert within certain limits, not only in the potential of interaction with objects of this space, but also vectorial in relation to them. This leads to the fact that an increase in the speed of movement of any object in this space causes an elastic reaction not only in the object but also in the environment itself and due to the basic properties of WATER in its various states. Therefore, there are principles or methodologies that, with an increase in the speed of movement in the atmosphere, this elastic vector is used for its intended purpose, and not in the method of opposing it by increasing the energy to overcome it. This time. Secondly, due to the fact that the environment is material, its potential energy is used, which further increases the resultant of the transformation process. In other words, a certain thermodynamic cycle is created, which uses not only stages based on changes in temperature and pressure, but also vectors and algorithms that allow transforming the energy of a substance into direct mechanical, reactive and other energy, for example, variable magnetic flux and such types of energy that are otherwise by not getting it.
      3. The comment was deleted.
    2. Izotovp
      Izotovp 17 October 2015 13: 12 New
      +2
      Heavy missiles won't fly? Are Energia and Saturn 5 lightweight? We only approach those tasks when we need such carriers in a series, and not for single launches, and if we restore Energy and the associated Hurricane and Vulcan, then this will be enough for us for another 50 years.
      1. gridasov
        gridasov 17 October 2015 13: 53 New
        +3
        The conversation is about the absence of any limitation in weight, as such. Because weight becomes not the defining criterion that can be measured or torn off the surface of the Earth. The conversation is about the level of such potential on the surface of the interaction of the body and the gravitational force of the Earth, which can be created and controlled. Of course, a person will not immediately reach such a level of achievement, but it is important to take a path of development that does not provide for "steps back" or marking time. People need to understand that we do not yet see what we come into contact with. But the appearance of such knowledge among people is already a prerequisite for changes to come. New technologies are a chance to preserve and develop human civilization at a new level. Failure to do so is like suicide. But even here we have no right to dispose of our existence. Therefore, it is better to accept and develop.
        1. Izotovp
          Izotovp 17 October 2015 14: 35 New
          +1
          Not only about the lack of weight, but also about how much weight and why to get it: direct cargo for orbit, cargo for deep space or cargo for extra-earth, direct or as equipment for creating new cargo. Now we are marking time and even landing on the moon is considered as an end in itself, and not as a stage and a way of further expansion using its resources. There is no clear, consistent program. And how to go when you do not understand where to take the next step. The understanding of the road dictates both clothes and shoes and food supplies: spacecraft body, energy, engine ...
          1. gridasov
            gridasov 17 October 2015 15: 07 New
            0
            You just noticed that “if you don’t know where you’re going, you’ll come nowhere.” Therefore, I very often talk about new analysis methodologies, which provide for development depending on the most different level of perspectives. Binary logic limits the consideration of such possibilities. Therefore, it is impossible to separate the achievement of any specific results in technology or others. From the development of methodologies for working with big data. As people, we must understand that an expanded information space also requires knowledge of its depth. New rates of analysis and in new levels of polarization of contrasting events. All this must be done at the same time. Otherwise, the gap only exacerbates the situation.
  • Mikhail3
    Mikhail3 17 October 2015 12: 27 New
    +1
    A full calculation of the cost of fuel would be interesting. It is complete, taking into account all the costs of receiving, transporting, storing and refueling LNG tanks and an oxygen-hydrogen pair. As well as cost calculations in case the start is delayed for some reason. Something seems to me that after such a calculation, the skepticism of the respected avt will seriously weaken.
    1. gridasov
      gridasov 17 October 2015 12: 38 New
      +2
      Absolutely right! And the higher the density of potential energy of a substance or fuel we want to use, the more expensive the total cost will be. And it will grow in completely unfavorable proportions. The engine in a single quality with the propulsion should and can be initiated into the work and that’s all. Then everything happens as a combination of a natural process.
      1. Mikhail3
        Mikhail3 17 October 2015 12: 50 New
        0
        Quote: gridasov
        Absolutely right! And the higher the density of potential energy of a substance or fuel we want to use, the more expensive the total cost will be. And it will grow in completely unfavorable proportions. The engine in a single quality with the propulsion should and can be initiated into the work and that’s all. Then everything happens as a combination of a natural process.

        I had such an idea. When here, on the site, someone complained that the diffusers in the engines for hypersonic rockets are destroyed. I asked why these diffusers are not made of fuel. A few months later there was a series of news about the successful testing of prototypes of hypersonic missiles.
        And you, therefore, consider it possible to cut the engine entirely out of fuel and other necessary substances and materials and even launch it? Somewhere I already heard about this ... yeah. Powder accelerators. The theme is the same, one to one in practice, just play with the density of gunpowder in volume, creating something like nozzles, right? I am sure that it will not be difficult to finalize the 3 printer so that it starts printing with gunpowder. It just won’t solve the problem ... or do you think it will solve it?
        1. gridasov
          gridasov 17 October 2015 13: 28 New
          0
          Somewhat different. An engine is a device initiating the processes of potential energy conversion of a hydro-gas-dynamic medium, namely, in their highly dynamic state. The mover is already an integral part already organizing the process of interaction of products and the potential of the process occurring in the reactor (engine) and displays these products and potential in the interaction medium in which everything happens and in which the engine with its composite body moves. Gunpowder cannot be an efficient enough fuel since it has low energy density storage capacity relative to the capabilities of our reactor. For fuel, it is precisely the substance that is absolutely incompressible within the framework of our time. However, this should be an accessibility agent. So it can only be air and water.
          The essence of our method is that it is theoretically possible to compress any of the most dense matter in the form of a mobile medium. In the framework of our reasoning, gunpowder, like other substances, is suitable for use only because they meet the criteria for the accumulation, movement, and initiation of their potential. We exclude all these stages. There is no storage or movement. We need the initiation and pretreatment of the substance. But in the reactor engine itself.
          You very accurately noted that our device, complex in functionality, is also an integral part of the environment in which it is located and moves. Therefore, it will not be destroyed at ultrahigh levels of ionization on all surfaces of the outflow. This is very important to understand and consider.
      2. avt
        avt 17 October 2015 12: 59 New
        0
        Quote: gridasov
        . The engine in a single quality with the propulsion should and can be initiated into the work and that’s all. Then everything happens as a combination of a natural process.

        Yes, write easier - you need to calculate how much it costs to transfer ALL the ground system to gas, plus the cost of a new engine compared to the ones currently produced in series, well, what will it take to remove the old and put in a new one, and how many launches you need to spend to save money from such savings. then from this phrase
        Quote: gridasov
        And the higher the density of potential energy of a substance or fuel we want to use,
        in some, the second part will not enter the brain exactly.
        Quote: gridasov
        , the more expensive the total cost will be.

        laughing Well, in general and in this particular case described in the article
        Quote: gridasov
        ... Everything is just like in the anecdote about the monkey - "Why think about jumping and that's it!"

        and indeed very many, some from greed in budget cuts, others by virtue
        Quote: gridasov
        ! There is a complete conviction that modern rocket engine designers have absolutely no ability to think in a complex way.

        do not see, or do not want to see what
        Quote: gridasov
        What have we come to? Moreover, the level of requirements of modern time and circumstances does not correspond to the potential of manufacturers' ability to create equivalent products.

        Quote: gridasov
        The level of technical solutions has reached an epic.

        in modern technologies of the last century, and no matter how much they are sucked in, squeezing a quality leap will fail.
        Quote: gridasov
        We need fundamentally new solutions and approaches to these solutions.

        good Which I constantly repeat.
        1. Izotovp
          Izotovp 17 October 2015 13: 24 New
          0
          Brand new? What kind ? Antigravity? Electromagnetic levitation? Tunnel effect for macro objects? While there is nothing even in theory. They are trying to come up with something only for movement already in space, and even then in deep and empty, without the presence of planets, asteroids, comets and gravitational inhomogeneity of space, but there is still no real thought on how to replace jet engines and protect astronauts from radiation even in orbit, and not in deep space.
          1. gridasov
            gridasov 17 October 2015 13: 43 New
            +1
            There is! There is a theory, there is a rationale. The conversation is not only about antigravity, but about the possibilities of creating local gravitational centers of space. Electromagnetic levitation is just a banal level of interaction of potentially charged surfaces of objects of contact. The tunnel effect is just the level of fractal interactions of various levels of charged structures of space or bodies. The interaction of these fractal energy levels of structures allows not only creating tunneling effects, but also transforming some levels into others. You are absolutely right that in space where the vector of gravitational forces is "scattered" or directed from the space that ensures the viability of astronauts, which means that it is the local gravitational spaces, or rather those parts of the geometric space that are between the flows of the magnetic force processes and which can be extracted precisely from local generators of such a potential level. And which are obtained from corny simple substances in the form of water or air or other substances in closed transformation processes. And this is also the protection of the entire complex of the environment for the existence of people and not only from you noted.
          2. avt
            avt 17 October 2015 14: 57 New
            0
            Quote: Izotovp
            but there is still no real thought on how to replace jet engines

            Or maybe they just didn’t look in the press and on the Internet? Even the options for replacing chemistry based on the effect of burning fuel with an oxidizing agent in jet engines, not to mention other engines on different physical principles, were completely covered in Soviet publications popularizing science.
            1. Izotovp
              Izotovp 17 October 2015 15: 29 New
              0
              And in the press, and on the Internet, and at the Academy, everything revolved around either classic taxiways for launch vehicles or various exotic ones for deep space, the entire complexity of the movement in which we do not realize because we walk in it not like pedestrians but like turtles.
              1. gridasov
                gridasov 17 October 2015 15: 37 New
                -1
                We think like turtles (let them not be offended). Mankind still uses only the fundamental property of a number based on its variable function. And completely unfamiliar with the principles of the function of constant value of a number. And this means that in our analysis methodology we are not capable of perceiving and analyzing simultaneously and differently directed and differently dynamic and differently potential information processes. Therefore, not only transient energy processes but also the very essence of such processes are difficult to perceive.
            2. gridasov
              gridasov 17 October 2015 15: 31 New
              0
              I will tell you openly that such ideas cannot appear on the Internet. Because having said "A" you have to say and take the next step. A simple chatter will be determined by everyone at once. Moreover, I have already spoken about this, that in addition to theory and the main convincing and evidential justification, there should be justification for the technical solution itself. And here new questions are already emerging, and no less important ones. There is a hunt for similar ideas and developments. Therefore, the developer must be extremely careful in his position to tell something and say nothing and at the same time be attractive to those interested, and most importantly opposing forces. Not everyone is able to maintain this balance. And those abstract ideas and projects that many develop as superficial fantasies and are evaluated by experts who think in terms of old dogmas and postulates. Breakthrough ideas can and should be fully substantiated at all levels of understanding of what is happening, what is needed and how to implement it.
        2. gridasov
          gridasov 17 October 2015 13: 32 New
          +1
          And I always agree with you! And it’s very important for me that there are still like-minded people. And this gives me the strength not to get hung up on all the stupidities that surround us.
        3. Mikhail3
          Mikhail3 17 October 2015 13: 57 New
          +2
          Quote: avt
          you need to calculate how much it costs to transfer ALL the ground system to gas

          This, by the way, is the funniest. Because, unlike oxygen and hydrogen, LNG requires almost no special infrastructure. Since it doesn’t burn everything and everything like oxygen, it doesn’t flow like hydrogen ... An LNG-fueled rocket can stand on the launch pad for a week, and you don’t need to manipulate the fuel. All kinds of pumps for pumping, compressors, etc., all this will be thousands of times cheaper than used now.
          Somehow your arguments began to look somewhat biased. Why did it happen? What kind of personal interest?
          1. gridasov
            gridasov 17 October 2015 14: 11 New
            0
            I will try to clarify once again that space is a medium of completely different potential interactions. Therefore, let me remind you that, for example, Water in its form without any impurities is already a fuel in itself. And this "light" water cannot be obtained in isolated form, but it can be obtained as a stage in a very short-term transformation process. LNG is an impurity that lowers the potential of the "ideal" fuel structure. Even due to the fact that some of the systemic components of this gas are, so to speak, creating substances, as in electricity, a delay effect or a lag in reaction time. And in the harsh conditions of space, the reaction must be instant. Enough of living with illusions. Space is space.
          2. Alex
            Alex 17 October 2015 14: 14 New
            +4
            Quote: Mikhail3
            This, by the way, is the funniest.

            Yes, there is nothing particularly funny here. LNG, like hydrogen, uses oxygen as an oxidizing agent, so nothing changes. Oxygen itself under normal conditions does not "eat" anything, and its tough disposition manifests itself only with significant heating, i.e. it is only dangerous in case of fire.

            The cryogenic system for LNG, in general, is also necessary, although, of course, not of such complexity. And leaks, by the way, are also possible, and they are much more dangerous than for hydrogen: although the range of explosive concentrations for methane is less than for hydrogen, it’s weight is only one and a half times lighter than air, therefore it will reach its dangerous concentration in the leak faster than hydrogen .

            In general, the special benefits of replacing one fuel with another are not visible, but as another alternative - why not. For each vegetable its own time, for each rocket - its own fuel.
            1. avt
              avt 17 October 2015 15: 03 New
              0
              Quote: Alex
              In general, the special benefits of replacing one fuel with another are not visible, but as another alternative - why not. For each vegetable its own time, for each rocket - its own fuel.

              Yeah, but that's a lot of cars transferred to gas ???? With all the variety of models? And with the launch of rockets, in general, all the other e-numbers of expenses come out. So it turns out - maybe all the same, first count? Grandfather conducted an experiment in aviation - we had a hydrogen-powered airplane and a prototype of a nuclear reactor for an airplane was lifted into the air, or maybe not a prototype, well, they did not bother people again. So what ? And to this day we fly on kerosene. And now the question pops up - Why aren't LNG used in aviation? wassatTechnically, it’s easier - there are definitely no LCDs with cryogenics.
              1. Alex
                Alex 17 October 2015 19: 18 New
                +4
                Quote: avt
                Yeah, but that's a lot of cars transferred to gas ????

                Yes, this is just an interesting figure. Not so much to talk about a triumphal campaign, but quite a lot to organize a network of gas compressor stations. But the aviation example is really indicative. That is why I, not being a specialist in taxiways, spoke in favor of a very cautious approach in matters of global replacement of taxiway types. As far as I understand, you understand these issues better than me and not one order of magnitude, so you, as they say, are in your hands. More precisely, the keyboard wink
                1. avt
                  avt 17 October 2015 23: 13 New
                  0
                  Quote: Alex
                  , You understand these issues better than me and not one order of magnitude, so you, as they say, are in your hands. More precisely, the keyboard

                  For a long time I have not held "cards in my hands". smile But that's why sometimes I start reading articles and some enthusiastic comments on them - everything, or almost everything that is now being discussed as something breakthrough, capable of going to the moon, well, at least, throw it, all this WAS already at the stage of proposals and did not receive development at the end 70s early 80s, I found these conversations as a young specialist, when the very living fathers of the founders worked out and had immeasurable funds. But even then, it did not go under more serious vultures, that is, it went into the basket like chipboard. Especially touched by those shown on TV, , experiments on simulating flights to Mars " wassat If the journalists had bothered to rummage around and ask what Gazenko was doing over the test subjects ... The same climber Korshunov would be asked on this subject as he had been lying in the bathroom for an hour and a half .... if life had not brought me to it, I would not have believed even a printed report.
                  1. Izotovp
                    Izotovp 18 October 2015 00: 27 New
                    +1
                    And a simulation program for a flight to Mars during the year and all biomedical programs in orbit in the World and even automatic plants ...
                    We didn’t even guess, and even with someone’s help, we could make a truck out of Salut and now we would not have competitors in this area.
                  2. Alex
                    Alex 18 October 2015 10: 52 New
                    +3
                    Quote: avt
                    everything, or almost everything that is now being discussed as something breakthrough, capable of throwing it to the Moon, at least, was ALL at the stage of proposals and did not receive development at the end of the 70x beginning of the 80x

                    Listen, colleague, and write an article on this subject !!! It would be extremely interesting to get acquainted, at least thesisally, with the main developments and why they have not been implemented. I am a teacher, I often have to answer questions about such crazy projects. The fact that many teachers think about the same way is no longer surprising.

                    In the fuel-oxidizer pair for rocket LRE, you can use different substances, so it would be interesting to see which is preferable and what technical difficulties stand in this way.

                    Best wishes... hi
            2. Mikhail3
              Mikhail3 17 October 2015 16: 11 New
              +2
              Oxygen eats gaskets only in the way, but you are right, as it is used as an oxidizing agent, it’s me somehow ... it's a rocket engine. To call the cryogenic cooling system required for LNG is the same as calling me general. There is too much honor for a modest figure.
              As for explosive concentrations ... from experience with natural gas I will say that it is almost impossible to accumulate such a concentration for methane if there is some kind of draft. The volume of such accumulation should be close to hermetic, otherwise nothing happens.
              We also had to deal with hydrogen, and he was still having a headache. Slightly what - and he is already gone, fled. And hydrogen is just harsh about exploding, God forbid ... So the benefits are visible, and quite significant.
              1. Alex
                Alex 17 October 2015 19: 33 New
                +3
                Quote: Mikhail3
                To call the cryogenic cooling system required for LNG is the same as calling me general.
                It’s possible that I, too, got a little excited, although I respect your general epaulets with respect - it’s not easy to earn them on this site hi

                About explosive concentrations ...
                I also worked a lot with these (and not only) gases - such a profession. Here the pattern is simple: a small amount of methane, of course, dissipates quite quickly (everyone has gas in the kitchen, so I won’t go on a long haul on this topic). But large quantities create a local increase in concentration, which can be delayed for a rather considerable time. If there is no spark or flame for him, then God has mercy. Given that there are other, heavier fractions in LNG, this process may become somewhat more dangerous. Over the entire period of operation, I don’t remember something like hydrogen explosions (although, of course, I don’t know everything), but the jokes are bad with gas. This is not about the kitchen, and not even about the truck with cylinders, the scale is measured in tons, so the consequences can be much more serious. Although this does not mean that work in this direction is not necessary. Everything once bears fruit. I just think that AVT right - everything must be calculated and extremely meticulously.
                1. gridasov
                  gridasov 17 October 2015 19: 46 New
                  0
                  I will give one more argument not in favor of LNG. Everyone knows the principles of the vacuum bomb effect. For a simple reason, the same methane reacting with oxygen forms a local space with that process or vector of destructive force, about which I very often say, but few people realize that there is an increase in the rarefaction region. If techies hear me, they will probably understand my idea that the effect in the combustion chamber will not be enough to create a reactive force. In this case, the money will be spent. Since there is a big difference between the fact that gas is used to refuel a car and the apparent identity of the processes in a rocket engine. All this again will come up in the exact opposite. There is no understanding of physics — there are significant costs in research. I would like to hear a refutation.
                  1. Zefr
                    Zefr 10 November 2015 18: 36 New
                    0
                    Ah, there it is ... So, in the internal combustion engine on gas, after ignition, the mixture is compressed and draws the piston to top dead center. That’s why you need to adjust the ignition angle. But I didn’t know ...
                    1. gridasov
                      gridasov 10 November 2015 18: 49 New
                      -1
                      As you described it looks very general. The higher the density of energy processes, the "higher" their transience. Excuse me at all annoying and I don't understand what is "above" or "below". You can afford it in linear analysis. But you have to use these terms in order to somehow express yourself. Therefore, I talk more about which phases of the process can be "lengthened" and which "can be shortened". Moreover, the piston is a relic of the past. The conversation is about more highly productive and cycles and the devices themselves.
                      1. Zefr
                        Zefr 10 November 2015 19: 01 New
                        0
                        Well, the piston is a relic. Okay.
                        But when you do not understand where above, a little concern for you appears.

                        You see, if it is impossible to determine the top and bottom, the concept of "right" and "left" also becomes unproductive, since they do not reasonably reflect the direction in the case of an unexpressed acceptance of the postulate of the top, because in such a paradigm it is impossible to unambiguously designate the starting point and the binding to it of the initial , albeit primitive, Cartesian coordinates.
                      2. gridasov
                        gridasov 10 November 2015 19: 09 New
                        -1
                        Come on calm down! Well, I don’t understand and all right, and in general you know how it should be and do it. And good luck to you.
        4. avt
          avt 17 October 2015 14: 37 New
          0
          Quote: Mikhail3
          This, by the way, is the funniest.

          Yeah! This -
          Quote: Mikhail3
          . Because, unlike oxygen and hydrogen, LNG requires almost no special infrastructure.

          laughingWell, firstly, even for kerosene, and especially LNG, a special infrastructure is required - only in Western cartoons of the 60s were buckets; Secondly, Nothing in your beautiful LNG engine uses liquid oxygen as an oxidizing agent, which is what the article
          - the fundamental possibility of creating an engine of the required dimension on the fuel pair of components "LCD + LNG"
          laughing This I mean that first I would read the article, then nonsense about
          . An LNG-fueled rocket can stand on the launch pad for a week, and no fuel manipulations are necessary.
          no need to write.
          Quote: Mikhail3
          . All kinds of pumps for pumping, compressors, etc., all this will be thousands of times cheaper than used now.

          wassat
          Quote: Mikhail3
          Somehow your arguments began to look somewhat biased. Why did it happen? What kind of personal interest?

          I’m tired of reading delirium, including the type of drawings we have - we’ll make tomorrow, “Energy.” Have you ever been to the launch pad? Well, you are dashingly talking about standing on the table filled with fuel. laughingWhy only a week? Let's leave for a year.
          1. Mikhail3
            Mikhail3 17 October 2015 16: 15 New
            0
            Quote: avt
            Brad tired of reading, including the type of drawings are - we will make tomorrow "Energy".

            I know that you are a specialist. So I assumed that you are working somewhere close to the release of some components. And why, by the way, "Energy" and not do it? :) Maybe in the first place because nobody needs it? An expensive and therefore unnecessary pleasure?
            Reducing the cost of launches is the only way to develop space exploration. In theory, it would be worthwhile to welcome steps in this direction ...
            1. avt
              avt 17 October 2015 18: 57 New
              0
              Quote: Mikhail3
              what work r

              He worked in the first specialty.
              Quote: Mikhail3
              Reducing the cost of launches is the only way to develop space exploration. In theory, it would be worthwhile to welcome steps in this direction ...

              Twenty five again request Well, where, who and when did REALLY READ the cost reduction when switching to the CIS from kerosene ???? That's all from the start of design to launch and for how much, for how many launches will these costs be repaid?
          2. cosmos111
            cosmos111 17 October 2015 19: 09 New
            0
            Quote: avt
            Nothing in your beautiful LNG engine uses liquid oxygen as an oxidizing agent.


            however the AmericansSpaceX develops methane / oxygen LPRE - 300

            http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2014/03/spacex-advances-drive-mars-rocket-raptor-
            power /
            1. avt
              avt 17 October 2015 20: 25 New
              0
              Quote: cosmos111
              however Americans, SpaceX is developing a methane / oxygen -300tc rocket engine

              You know, that's how everything that concerns NASA programs in the non-military sphere does not inspire. Right after the Shuttle, and practically von Braun, they have these ideas that are different with the "private space" ..... some kind of analogy with us - there is no clear program and understanding of what to do and who should hike. But we have an old groundwork and base, and they have a bunch of sleep-and-and ... we have ideas and personnel that are onerous, and besides, in Russia they plowed to work with grants, and the return - shysh and kumysh. Well, the moon rover "was sent to Mars - Bush campaign did not make a reservation, but let it slip. laughing The X-37 differs from Bora only in that it was brought to mind on a modern base what was shown in the USSR on the Buran. Maybe there are flying saucers somewhere in the hangars ... But the same ISS is a variation on the theme of our next station, where lighter compartments should have been piled around the base module. I'm not talking about China - all these are pure replicas of the USSR. There is no real technological breakthrough request not .
              1. Izotovp
                Izotovp 17 October 2015 20: 54 New
                0
                The ISS is a variation on the theme of our past station. The continuation of the MIR station should have been like that.
                A breakthrough in space can only be when there is a civilizational breakthrough in consciousness on Earth, we will step out of children's ambitions, distribute roles in space and optimize cooperation taking into account the strengths of the main civilization centers.
                1. cosmos111
                  cosmos111 17 October 2015 21: 27 New
                  +1
                  Quote: avt
                  base that in the USSR on "Buran" showed

                  based on Energy-Buran ...

                  Roscosmos and TsNIIMash: 4 June 2014 years ...
                  the project of the super-heavy rocket of the first stage is as close as possible to the so-called. Energy-80 or, otherwise, Energy-3 (on the left in the image below). It involves the use of a large oxygen-hydrogen central unit and three kerosene boosters in the diameter of Zenit rockets (4,1 m). A twofold increase in the number of accelerators will allow raising the carrying capacity to 120-130 tons, as expected at the second stage. In the future, if methane accelerators are used instead of kerosene ones, the payload mass can be raised already to the mentioned 190 tons of Ostapenko
                  http://kosmolenta.com/index.php/new-tech/superheavy

                  клик
                  1. gridasov
                    gridasov 17 October 2015 21: 52 New
                    -1
                    I can already say that with such a weight, the rotor of the supercharger turbine fuel will first of all collapse, and when you adjust it to a capacity sufficient to raise this weight of the rocket, it will simply rip it off the mounts towards the axial vector - towards the flow inlet.
                  2. avt
                    avt 17 October 2015 23: 19 New
                    +1
                    Quote: cosmos111
                    based on Energy-Buran ...

                    Well, if you are meticulous, then yes. It was on the basis of these TWO machines, in contrast to the Shuttle, that the Energy Glushko made with an eye to interplanetary flight and to the Moon at least.
  • Izotovp
    Izotovp 17 October 2015 12: 53 New
    +2
    Pushed through. Taking advantage of the illiteracy of ministerial ranks and shouting about the environment, supported by Gazprom as a producer of such fuel-pushed through. And the fact that Glushko was still calculating such engines and refused, and the fact that hydrogen is more environmentally friendly ... and so on .. it doesn’t matter to them, the main thing is to cut ...
  • chunga-changa
    chunga-changa 17 October 2015 13: 33 New
    +1
    All this is interesting, but the funds of the space program are spent on endless developments of essentially the same thing, they did not have time to launch the Angara and recoup at least part of the costs, as they began to develop its replacement. At the same time, practical space exploration programs are marking time or postponed.
    1. gridasov
      gridasov 17 October 2015 14: 01 New
      -1
      All this is so! But at the same time, everyone can do only what he is capable of. If there were not some people who are not quite adequate to modern conditions of the space of human perception and existence, people who do their job, despite all the barriers and obstacles, then human civilization would not have developed. Therefore, you need to be filled with endurance and patience. But still, to do his work, within the limits of his variable space of influence.
  • Jurkovs
    Jurkovs 17 October 2015 15: 05 New
    0
    The information is already out of date. Isayev's KBHM really proactively made a methane engine, but since they never made first-stage engines, they do not have the necessary testing facilities. The engine they created was tested on the "side" and all modes of operation and various percentages of methane in the fuel were not considered properly. At present, it has been decided that for the first stage of the Soyuz-5.1 (Phoenix) rocket, the engine will be made by Himmash, and for the second stage by the KBKhA. Whether any of the existing engines will be built from scratch or adapted remains to be seen. KB Kuznetsov restored production of NK-33 and on their own initiative they want to transfer it to methane, but this will be the engine for Soyuz-2.1B.
  • Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 17 October 2015 18: 07 New
    +1
    Replacing hydrogen with methane is not absolutely relevant. Kerosene is no worse than methane. The cost of fuel in the cost of launch is minuscule. The cost of a rocket, with all the unique technology of its production, assembly, testing ... All this is very expensive. And here they mentioned 3-D printing of engine components. This is the future. And cheaper, and shorter production chains.
    1. cosmos111
      cosmos111 17 October 2015 22: 21 New
      0
      Quote: Mountain Shooter
      Kerosene is no worse than methane.

      do NOT agree with this statement in the RCC "Progress" (Samara)

      that they are able to provide a higher specific impulse than kerosene engines (however, lower than hydrogen engines), and, at the same time, are relatively simple to maintain. In recent months, several variants of superheavy carriers have been proposed. One of them at the first and second stages uses RD-0164 engines with a thrust of more than 250 t at sea level (according to some 315 t), which are supposed to be developed in the KBKHA based on RD-0162 (thrust near 200 t).
      http://kosmolenta.com/index.php/new-tech/superheavy
    2. cosmos111
      cosmos111 17 October 2015 22: 38 New
      0
      RD-0164 with traction more than 250 t.s
      about LNG RD-0162 LPRE, they write about specialized Western publications ...
      http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?topic=33645.0

      with equal mass at the start, the methane launch vehicle displays at 5% GH while having a large mass of tanks and engines ...


      http://izvestia.ru/news/570880#ixzz31sPU5Fkr
  • sa-ag
    sa-ag 17 October 2015 22: 31 New
    +1
    atomic hydrogen, to learn how to receive and store it, and you can fly, on recombination energy alone, to the Moon and back :-)
    1. Alex
      Alex 17 October 2015 22: 57 New
      +3
      Quote: sa-ag
      atomic hydrogen, to learn how to receive and store it

      We learned how to get it for a long time and it works quite successfully in the Langmuir burner, but it is impossible to store it: no one has canceled the quantum effects.
    2. gridasov
      gridasov 17 October 2015 23: 17 New
      0
      Obviously, it is worth repeating again that the so-called. atomic hydrogen is very difficult to store, but it can be obtained as a stage of transformation of more stable complex substances in a very short period of time. To do this, you just need to create the conditions. It’s like in mathematics when one array of independent numbers in the form of an algorithmic connection can be combined with another array or a single number. At the same time, not all numbers will enter into a separate relationship, but only those that form harmonious systemic links.