German roots of the Armata project: rumors and reality

122
On May 9, the first official show of the latest Russian official took place. tank T-14 Armata. The emergence of a new combat vehicle was the occasion for a lot of discussion and debate. An interested public, while not having enough official information, is trying to establish various features of the appearance of a promising tank, and is also attempting to predict its future. Meanwhile, in the foreign press there were speculations about the possible roots of the project.

Charges and Assumptions

28 and 29 in May, the German edition of Die Welt has published several articles, which offer a curious assumption about the origin of the new Russian project. The authors of the publication, citing experts, argue that the basis of the Russian project "Armat" are ideas borrowed from German specialists. Moreover, the project, allegedly serving as a source of basic ideas, was developed several decades ago.

The most complete version of the borrowing of German developments is disclosed in the article Russischer Super-Panzer kopiert deutsche Ideen (“The Russian super-tank copies German ideas”) by Gerhard Hegmann, published on May 28. The alleged use of German ideas is mentioned in other articles of the end of last week, but the most complete information is given in this publication. Consider an unexpected version of the publication Die Welt, according to which the authors of the T-14 “Armata” project used other people's ideas and best practices.


Tank T-14 "Armata". Photo Welt.de


The author begins his publication with a reminder of the Victory Parade 9 of May, during which the Russian defense industry for the first time showed a new tank. Referring to unnamed Western experts, G. Hegmann argues that the analysis of existing photographs of the Armata tank made it possible to determine its origin. He writes that the basic concept of this combat vehicle was developed abroad, including in Germany, three decades ago.

The journalist of the Die Welt publication believes that Russian engineers used the concept previously proposed for the renewal of tank forces and the replacement of existing Leopard 2 machines as the basis for their new project. All of this can be a wake-up call for Western military and engineers. It will take about 2 years to develop a new main tank, which will be able to replace the “Leopards-15” and will be the answer to the “Armata”.

Currently, notes G. Hegmann, there is an alarming trend. The main battle tank, which can be attributed to a new generation of such equipment, has already appeared, but its creator is the Uralvagonzavod, and not the Krauss-Maffei Wegmann or Rheinmetall. An unnamed expert, whose words are given by Die Welt, believes that the Armata project should awaken Western tank builders who have been “sleeping” since the early nineties. He believes that the newest T-14 armored vehicle has tangible advantages over all foreign vehicles, including the German Leopard 2 tanks. However, he does not consider the new ideas of the Russian project to be truly new. According to this expert, all these ideas appeared and were worked out in Germany.

Further, the author of the article Russischer Super-Panzer kopiert deutsche Ideen gave some arguments in favor of his claim to borrow ideas. In his opinion, the argument in favor of this version is some of the technical features of the newest Russian tank, which are too much like a number of solutions used in old German projects.

The German journalist believes that one of the main objectives of the Armata project was to prevent the further growth of the tank's combat mass. The development of armaments affects the level of protection of armored vehicles, which ultimately leads to a significant increase in its weight. For example, during several upgrades, the German tank Leopard 2 got heavier from 55 to 63 tons. Other foreign armored vehicles also gained weight during upgrades and upgrades. Greater weight allows you to increase the security of the crew and units, but affects the mobility of technology.

G. Hegmann believes that Russian tank builders did not improve the protection of the T-14 tank by increasing the weight of the entire machine. In addition, the use of the total volume to accommodate the crew and uninhabited tower was a tool for reducing the mass of the tank. Due to this, it was possible to reduce the number of required reservations, which had a positive impact on the weight of the car.

Further, in the publication of the publication Die Welt, it is argued that the concept of an uninhabited tower and the placement of the crew in a common so-called. The armored capsule is not a novelty that first appeared in the Armata project. According to German journalists and specialists, such ideas have already been proposed and studied by the German defense industry. A few decades ago, in Germany, work was carried out on the Panzerkampfwagen 2000 project, the purpose of which was to create a promising main tank to replace the existing Leopard 2.

Project Panzerkampfwagen 2000

Indeed, in the early eighties, German specialists began work under the Panzerkampfwagen 2000 program. It was assumed that this project will create a new main tank and put it into service in the late nineties. However, for various reasons, this project did not have much success. Creating a revolutionary tank, surpassing the characteristics of all existing competitors, was associated with a host of difficulties. In addition, after the collapse of the Warsaw Pact and the collapse of the Soviet Union, the German military stopped funding work due to a sharp change in the military-political situation. In the early nineties, the Panzerkampfwagen 2000 project was closed.

After the failure of the VT1 project, which was planned to replace Leopards, in 1984, the Federal Ministry of Defense issued a new list of requirements for advanced armored vehicles. In the future, the technical task has been repeatedly adjusted in accordance with the current vision of the tank of the future. Nevertheless, some features of the requirements almost did not change. It was assumed that the promising tank Panzerkampfwagen 2000 would have a combat mass of no more than 45-50 tons, which would not limit its tactical and strategic mobility, as well as receive protection and weapons that will ensure superiority over all existing foreign tanks.

German roots of the Armata project: rumors and reality
Experimental machine KRC. Photo Panzerbaer.de


In the course of theoretical studies it was found that the requirements for the weight of the structure forced to abandon the classical layout of the hull and tower. To fulfill all the requirements, it was necessary to abandon the habitable tower, as well as significantly reduce the size of the habitable volume. Only in this case it was possible to provide an acceptable weight machine. Against this background, there was a proposal to place the crew in the hull and isolate it from all elements of weapons. The latter in this case could be placed in a relatively small tower.

The latest version of the requirements for the advanced tank Panzerkampfwagen 2000, which appeared in the late eighties, meant reducing the crew to two people (driver and commander-gunner), mm 140 caliber gun, digital fire control system, modern communications with the ability to integrate into general military systems management, etc.

In 1990, German specialists built and tested two prototypes called the VT2000. These experimental machines were designed to test various aspects of the operation of promising tanks, built to meet existing requirements. One of the main questions studied during the tests was the principal possibility of controlling a tank with two people.

The first appeared prototype under the symbol KRC (KampfRaumContainer). On the chassis of the serial tank Leopard 2 installed a special two-seat tower with a set of electronic equipment. Both crew jobs were equipped with chassis aggregation control systems, as well as screens and other equipment for outputting the signal from optical-electronic devices. On the roof of the tower was located a column with various video cameras, thermal imagers and other equipment designed to monitor the environment. In addition, both tank crews had a set of periscopic instruments. No weapons were envisaged, since the KRC machine was intended solely to determine the prospects of the chosen crew.

Tests have shown that two people are fully capable of coping with the operation of a KRC machine in various conditions. Nevertheless, such a reduction in the crew was considered inexpedient. It made it possible to reduce the size of the habitable volume and thereby simplify the design of the entire tank, however, this significantly increased the load on the tank crews. The commander and mechanic, as the testers considered, could have had serious problems with performing all their tasks, especially in a combat situation.


Experimental KSC machine. Photo Panzerbaer.de


Soon the KSC prototype (KampfSystemContainer) appeared, which had a similar architecture. At the same time, KSC equipped the tower with three crew seats and a set of different equipment. The load on each tanker decreased, which allowed to speak about the development of a promising tank Panzerkampfwagen 2000 with a crew of three people.

Shortly after the completion of the KRC and KSC prototype testing, the project was closed. The military-political situation in Europe has seriously changed, which is why the Bundeswehr decided to stop the development of a promising tank. In the future, attempts were made to create a replacement for the "Leopard-2", but so far they have not led to any noticeable results.

The two prototypes, tested since 1990, were designed to explore the prospects for accommodating the entire crew in a common habitable compartment. Other features of the promising Panzerkampfwagen 2000 tank, allegedly borrowed by Russian engineers, remained at the stage of preliminary calculations and studies. Thus, G. Hegmann and the experts to whom he refers seem to be trying to compare the German project, remaining on paper, and the Russian tanks, which have already been put to the test.

Project Standardpanzer C

It is important to bear in mind that during the Panzerkampfwagen 2000 project, the main work related to the uninhabited tower and the crew’s single capsule ended at the preliminary design stage. To justify the German tank building, it must be said that the Bundeswehr could really get a new tank with a revolutionary new layout. A similar project appeared in the late fifties.

In 1957, Germany and France agreed to jointly create a new main tank, which received the symbol Standardpanzer (“Standard Tank”) or Europanzer (“European Tank”). In 58, Italy joined the creation of the armored vehicle. For various reasons, over time, the project became only German, because other countries ceased their participation in it. As a result, three German companies created three versions of the draft of the new tank. For example, Porsche and Rheinmetall presented Standardpanzer A and Standardpanzer B projects to the competition. However, the Borgward Standardpanzer C project is of the greatest interest.


The general scheme of the tank Standardpanzer C company Borgward


The lack of serious experience in the creation of tanks did not prevent the engineers of Borgward from proposing a more than daring project with a mass of original and unusual ideas, which even now can surprise specialists and amateurs of military equipment. It is noteworthy that with some of its features, the Standardpanzer C project is much more similar to the Russian T-14 than the Panzerkampfwagen 2000 project mentioned by the Die Welt publication.

Draft Standardpanzer C (internal designation of the company RR EP-1) proposed the use of an unusual tank layout. In the front, it was proposed to place four six-cylinder engines with a total power up to 1500 hp at once. In this case, the transmission units were located next to the engines, along the sides and in the stern. Since it was decided to leave the drive wheels in the rear part of the hull, two cardan shafts passed along the sides. Some transmission gearboxes were proposed to be placed in front of the hull, the rest - in the stern.

Originality differed and chassis. It included five dual support rollers with a hydropneumatic suspension on each side. According to some reports, the tank Standardpanzer C had a combined chassis. Developed rubber bands of road wheels, as well as a control system for the front and rear rollers, made this car wheel-tracked. In this case, the transmission unit should have included units for transmitting torque to the rollers.

In the middle part of the hull a place was provided for an uninhabited tower with an 90-mm cannon. All operations for loading, targeting and other maintenance weapons were to be carried out by automatic crew commands. In particular, an automatic loader with a vertical placement of ammunition in the cells of the ring conveyor was proposed. The original layout of the fighting compartment allowed to place almost all the necessary units below the roof of the case. Only a small cylinder (the roof of the fighting compartment) and a rectangular casing with a tool rose above it.

Behind the fighting compartment, engineers at Borgward positioned a capsule to accommodate three tank crews. At their workplaces, a complete set of the most modern equipment was provided to monitor the situation, search for targets and control weapons. Of particular note are the advantages associated with a similar arrangement of habitable volume. To hit the crew when hit in frontal projection, the enemy projectile had to pierce the frontal armor, engines and combat compartment. Thus, the Standardpan C tank (RR EP-1) could boast an extremely high level of crew protection when attacking from the front corners.

In 1959, the customer has determined which projects will continue to exist and will be embodied in the metal. Orders for the construction of pilot tanks received the company Porsche (Standardpanzer A) and Rheinmetall (Standardpanzer B). The project of the Borgward company was considered too complicated for construction and mass exploitation in the army. As a result, the RR EP-1 project remained on paper. In 1961, Borgward went bankrupt, leading to the cessation of work in all areas, primarily in the automotive industry. The further fate of the design documentation for the Standardpanzer C project is unknown.

Verdict

The Panzerkampfwagen 2000 project, which allegedly served as a source of ideas for the development of the Russian T-14 tank, stopped at the early stages, when all technical solutions were only formed and worked out at the level of calculations. In addition, several decades before this project appeared in Germany, a project was already created with similar layout solutions. Thus, it is incorrect to call the Armata project built on the basis of German ideas borrowed from the hypothetical Panzerkampfwagen 2000 tank.

As for the Standardpanzer project in the Borgward version, it cannot be considered a “source of inspiration” for Russian engineers. The reasons for this are the same as in the case of the Panzerkampfwagen 2000: the project stopped at the earliest stages and therefore can hardly be considered a prototype or a precursor of something. As far as can be judged from the available data, the staff of Borgward identified only some of the main features of their project, but did not start developing full-fledged technical documentation for the construction of the prototype.

In addition, it must be remembered that the Russian school of tank design has extensive experience in the development and construction of tanks of various classes. Studies of the prospects of a deserted combat compartment and the deployment of the crew in the total volume began in the late fifties. Various variants of such equipment were worked out, but for various objective reasons such equipment basically remained at the project development stage.


The general scheme of the medium tank development VNII-100. Figure Otvaga2004.ru


It is known that in 1959, the VNII-100 proposed a tank with an uninhabited turret and a crew capsule. Three tankers were placed in the front of the hull under the protection of powerful armor, the middle part of the hull was given under the uninhabited automated fighting compartment, and the engine was located in the stern. Such an average tank could have a combat mass at the level of 36 tons and carry 115-mm cannon U-5TS with 40 ammunition shots in automated styling.

In the future, domestic engineers have repeatedly proposed similar projects. For example, in the nineties, an experienced tank, the 195 Object, was built and tested. According to reports, this machine in its layout resembled the current tank Armata T-14, but had some differences. For example, "Object 195" was equipped with a weapon caliber 152 mm. The gun was located in an uninhabited automated turret, isolated from the crew.


The prototype of the tank "Object 195". Photo by Andrei-bt.livejournal.com


Thus, the newest Russian T-14 tank based on the Armat’s unified armored platform should be considered entirely domestic development based on experience. The Russian tank construction school has a great deal of experience in creating armored vehicles and hardly needs borrowing other people's ideas, especially those taken from projects older than a few decades.

The version of the “German wake” in this case turns out to be nothing more than an exaggerated sensation that appeared against the background of the general rush around the first tank of a truly new generation. In addition, the reports of the foreign press about the possible borrowing of ideas lead us to recall the old proverb, according to which a victory, unlike a defeat, always has a mass of fathers. Only in this case, not all the supposed “fathers” are really such, no matter how much they want it.


Based on:
http://welt.de/print/die_welt/wirtschaft/article141573502/Russischer-Super-Panzer-kopiert-deutsche-Ideen.html
http://panzerbaer.de/
http://armor.kiev.ua/
http://vestnik-rm.ru/
http://militaryfactory.com/
http://militaryparitet.com/
http://shushpanzer-ru.livejournal.com/
122 comments
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  1. +59
    2 June 2015 06: 43
    Yeah, let them even say that Armata is the direct heir to Tiger 1. They have a similar mass and angular towers.
    1. +24
      2 June 2015 06: 59
      Yes, now who hasn’t already connected to this yakonoy for the first time and yakyvaniye for the first time. Dill also says that we stole the idea from them and built Armata on the basis of their Hammer. Remained the Americans, the French and the British. laughing Only there, things didn’t move beyond prototypes, and Armata is most likely a serial tank smile
      1. +7
        2 June 2015 09: 52
        Yes, let them build hypotheses, whatever - the caravan is on its way, but the train has already left.
        1. +10
          2 June 2015 11: 18
          I personally do not pay attention to this kind of information, I already got this nonsense! They are just a toad strangling that the Russians created such a tank, about crying hamsters still can not calm down on the Internet and recognize Armata the best in the world !! Let choke on their bile ....
          1. -17
            2 June 2015 16: 25
            Quote: YARS
            I personally do not pay attention to this kind of information, I already got this nonsense! They are just a toad strangling that the Russians created such a tank, about crying hamsters still can not calm down on the Internet and recognize Armata the best in the world !! Let choke on their bile ....

            But to admit on the basis of what, the engine only reached the Leopard's power level right now, it has not yet been adopted for service, it was fictional in battle ... what are your proofs of the "best and not having an analogue to the world" tank?
            1. +14
              2 June 2015 17: 08
              For riegele. TovarisTCh for those who are on an armored train, I explain, firstly, engine power is not measured by the number of horsepower, but by the specific gravity of these very horsepower to the mass of the tank! Secondly, as far as I know your Leopard was not in battle either! Thirdly, in Armata, completely new concepts for protecting the crew were applied! Fourth, Armata has an uninhabited tower! Fifth, the Almaty gun surpasses the Loepard gun in all respects, which even your experts can’t argue with! And in the tenths, you want to measure peeps ?! So your Hitler was already measured ..., recall the result ?!

              P.S. And how many Leopards were sold and how many T-90s were sold ?!
              1. -20
                2 June 2015 17: 15
                Quote: Varyag_1973
                Fifth, the Almaty gun surpasses the Loepard gun in all respects, which even your experts can’t argue with!

                let's get back to the gun, where and by whom is it recognized unique?
                1. +14
                  2 June 2015 17: 20
                  This is apparently such a humiliation to write - "unique" ?! How old are you child ?! I see no point in discussing the performance characteristics of tanks with you, simply because it is stupid to discuss it with children or downs (this is the only way to interpret it as "unique")!
              2. 0
                2 June 2015 22: 53
                [quote = Varyag_1973] The leopard was not in the battle either! [/ q]
                Well, for the sake of justice, I was in several, as part of the Canadian contingent, but the Afghans did not have tanks anymore, but otherwise I support them.
                1. 0
                  3 June 2015 00: 13
                  For the UNKNOWN. To be honest, I have not found any combat use of Leopard 2 tanks, so if you can "link to the studio"!
              3. 0
                7 June 2015 00: 07
                Quote: Varyag_1973
                For riegele. TovarisTCh for those who are on an armored train, I explain, firstly, engine power is not measured by the number of horsepower, but by the specific gravity of these very horsepower to the mass of the tank!

                Let me be curious: did you take this from a physics textbook, operational instructions for a tank, or from the book "Tales of the Nations of the World"? wassat
                For that matter, power is measured in horsepower or watts (kilowatts, megawatts ...). tongue
                Specific gravity is measured in kilograms per cubic meter or grams per liter.
                In horsepower per tonne (vehicle mass) is measured - surprise! surprise! - power density...
                Sir, if you are so poorly versed in the units of measurement and the physical (mechanical, etc.) processes characterized by them, then at least you would not have expressed yourself so impudently and categorically ... fool negative
                Something like this! Yes hi
              4. 0
                20 February 2018 12: 51
                Quote: Varyag_1973
                as far as I know your Leopard was not in battle either!




            2. +6
              2 June 2015 21: 11
              Do you really want to make sure that the Armata T-15 is the best tank that has no analogue? Sorry, but dreams are material, and if you really want this, then you really run the risk of seeing "Armata" and Soviet, sorry - of course Russian! tankers on the streets of Berlin and Paris. Our troops (whether Russian or Soviet) are not accustomed to taking these European capitals on a spear (bayonet, T-34 tank, Armata tank - fill in the required). And then do not be offended if the Germans (who will remain alive) are presented with a Hamburg bill for everything that they have been doing on the territory of our country for many centuries, and especially for the war crimes of the Wehrmacht and the SS in the Great Patriotic War. It is not for nothing that we have a proverb - "who remembers the past - that eye out, and who forgets - both!" WE REMEMBER EVERYTHING! And if you really ask for it - then we will remind you everything! And then the Germans will very much regret the short-sighted policy of the woman-chancellor and her ultimatum after the sacred holiday for us - Victory Day! I really don't advise you to anger the bear. And to hope that the overseas puppeteers will help you in case of anything is naive and stupid. The United States, like the British Empire once did not have permanent allies, but has permanent interests, and the defense of Europe is far from the first place among these interests, if at all.
              I have the honor.
              1. -4
                2 June 2015 23: 41
                Quote: Alexander72
                Do you really want to make sure that the Armata T-15 is the best tank that has no analogue? Sorry, but dreams are material, and if you really want this, then you really run the risk of seeing "Armata" and Soviet, sorry - of course Russian! tankers on the streets of Berlin and Paris. Our troops (whether Russian or Soviet) are not accustomed to taking these European capitals on a spear (bayonet, T-34 tank, Armata tank - fill in the required). And then do not be offended if the Germans (who will remain alive) are presented with a Hamburg bill for everything that they have been doing on the territory of our country for many centuries, and especially for the war crimes of the Wehrmacht and the SS in the Great Patriotic War. It is not for nothing that we have a proverb - "who remembers the past - that eye out, and who forgets - both!" WE REMEMBER EVERYTHING! And if you really ask for it - then we will remind you everything! And then the Germans will very much regret the short-sighted policy of the woman-chancellor and her ultimatum after the sacred holiday for us - Victory Day! I really don't advise you to anger the bear. And to hope that the overseas puppeteers will help you in case of anything is naive and stupid. The United States, like the British Empire once did not have permanent allies, but has permanent interests, and the defense of Europe is far from the first place among these interests, if at all.
                I have the honor.

                many letters negative
                1. The comment was deleted.
                2. +4
                  3 June 2015 03: 31
                  )) Shkolota? laughing That is the main problem, to discuss and discuss something, you need to read
                  1. 0
                    7 June 2015 00: 11
                    Well yes. You need to have brains and some intelligible content for them fool
                    I agree to all 100% good
                    In other cases, a squeal, squeak and throwing of litter is obtained, as if in a monkey ... wassat
            3. +2
              2 June 2015 22: 44
              Quote: riegele
              Quote: YARS
              I personally do not pay attention to this kind of information, I already got this nonsense! They are just a toad strangling that the Russians created such a tank, about crying hamsters still can not calm down on the Internet and recognize Armata the best in the world !! Let choke on their bile ....

              But to admit on the basis of what, the engine only reached the Leopard's power level right now, it has not yet been adopted for service, it was fictional in battle ... what are your proofs of the "best and not having an analogue to the world" tank?


              Lkpard-2 was in battle? Was not. Therefore, not a tank but a guano. And already 30 years. So guano will also go into scrap metal.
              Is there anything to object to my logical statement? Tady is free.
            4. The comment was deleted.
            5. 0
              20 February 2018 13: 16
              Quote: riegele
              motor power just reached the leopard


              Mass and specific power of the engine:

              Leopard-2 - 2010 kg, 1500 hp = 0.74 hp / kg
              T-72B - 1020 kg, 840 hp = 0.82 hp / kg
              T-90 - 1020 kg, 1000 hp = 0.98 hp / kg

              MTO volume (without fuel), its overall power:

              Leopard-2 - 6,8 m3 - 220 hp / m3
              T-72B - 3,1 m3 - 271 hp / m3
              T-90 - 3,1 m3 - 322 hp / m3

              Cramming a motor into a tank with the size and weight of a loaded UAZ is not a lot of intelligence.
        2. +5
          2 June 2015 20: 59
          "Victory has many fathers, and defeat is always an orphan." (C)
        3. +2
          3 June 2015 00: 36
          When the Union cartoon was:
          1. 0
            4 June 2015 21: 20
            Quote: kocclissi
            When the Union cartoon was:

            Not only
            When the Union cartoon was:

            and IN OUR COUNTRY !!!. Good cartoon, I love him very much.
            By the way-we had no colonies, unlike the British and French. Where are the liberals of their countries angrily shouting slogans- "Shame on the invaders!" ???
      2. +2
        2 June 2015 12: 49
        Well, let them already decide who the first project was stolen .... laughing
      3. Fat
        +1
        2 June 2015 13: 07
        trynden don’t turn over the bags. Let’s build then we'll see and compare. They’re about 15 years old just to agree. And build another 10
    2. +9
      2 June 2015 07: 15
      Well done, what can I say. An article ordered from some experts, so that there would be less criticism due to the fact that the Russians have a new tank, but the Germans do not.
      1. +36
        2 June 2015 07: 22
        The most modern and advanced tank designs only in dill! wassat
        1. +9
          2 June 2015 10: 02
          Quote: CRONOS
          The most modern and advanced tank designs only in dill

          Now Ukrainians roll claims to stopitsot billions-Russian bright ideas htz HTR wassat
          Meanwhile, the Chinese copy and produce everything that their Chinese darling pleases - from a sewing machine to a spaceship. And no one stinks, no noise ... paradox?
          Yes, we are right on this German magazine whore from the Eiffel Tower with its ravings Yes
          The Germans drove gasoline tanks throughout the war ... and they suddenly installed a diesel on the Leaperd? They stole, scary stsuki, our idea !!!
          I’m more worried about the fact that the VO page suddenly appeared in the advertisement of all shit and idiotic news from the media 2 fool or is it just visible to me ???
          1. +2
            2 June 2015 16: 30
            Only to you. Erase cookies. laughing
          2. -1
            3 June 2015 00: 15
            Quote: CONNECTING ROD VDVshny
            Sperley, scary bitch, our idea !!!

            yes it’s Russian, scary stsuki, the German invention diz.dviglo stuck in a tank, its weakly invented?
        2. +16
          2 June 2015 11: 49
          Oh, why and in boasting dill surpassed ALL! And the Bastion is the best and other weapon, but the fact that this is all the Soviet legacy is modestly silent about this wink
          1. +3
            2 June 2015 17: 17
            Magic Archer, tell me, comrade, where does this wonderful movie come from?
            I understand that a piece of the film + dill, screaming "iiiiii !!!", and I would have looked at this film.
            1. +1
              2 June 2015 19: 20
              I would be glad to help but I myself do not know request
      2. +7
        2 June 2015 08: 51
        Quote: vodolaz
        Well done, what can I say. An article ordered from some experts, so that there would be less criticism due to the fact that the Russians have a new tank, but the Germans do not.

        The principle is simple - you can’t create something like that, say that it was created by you a long time ago.
        Only the Germans say that at the same time they will create all Leopard-3 not earlier than 2030 year. If they had the best practices, they would already have started to construct it. But while the turnips are scratched with the French.
        1. +1
          2 June 2015 18: 07
          Quote: NEXUS
          If they had the best practices

          Yes, they were, they had developments. Only this ... the Turkish master of cleanliness handed them over to waste paper. For bakshish.
    3. +20
      2 June 2015 08: 24
      ... and PAK FA is the direct heir to the Wright brothers' airplane: the same rag-wooden, too, would not be visible on radars.
      When Eurofighter was being developed, the European press started to duck that Russian intelligence was stealing blueprints in order to copy such a miracle of technology. And one of the German newspapers wrote with disappointment that in response to this question, Russian designers openly laugh and say that the fourth generation, which is Eurofighter, does not interest them.
    4. +8
      2 June 2015 08: 29
      Quote: ImperialKolorad
      Yeah, let them even say that Armata is the direct heir to Tiger 1. They have a similar mass and angular towers.

      I agree that it’s enough to invent it. I envy and are angry, creatures! Our tank builders are the best in the world! T-34 - the Soviet medium tank of the Great Patriotic War, produced since 1940, and since 1942 it was the main combat unit of the armored forces of the USSR. It became the most massive tank of the XX century. When it was created, Soviet designers managed to find the optimal ratio between the main combat, operational and technological characteristics. Due to its fighting qualities, the T-34 was recognized as the best tank of the Second World War. Hitler ordered the cemetery in Kharkov to be bombed and razed to the ground, where T-34 designer Mikhail Ilyich Koshkin was buried. The grave was never found!
      1. +8
        2 June 2015 11: 41
        And the "KV" At the beginning of the war, the Germans and how they "bzdeli"
      2. +1
        3 June 2015 17: 02
        Quote: Vladimir Pozlnyakov
        It became the most massive tank of the XX century. When it was created, Soviet designers managed to find the optimal ratio between the main combat, operational and technological characteristics.

        That is the main thing in a large-scale war. It is a pity that from these positions we can not yet assess the quality of modern technology.
        Quote: Vladimir Pozlnyakov
        Due to its fighting qualities, the T-34 was recognized as the best tank of the Second World War.
        The results of the Second World War showed that a simple comparison of the performance characteristics of equipment gives nothing. The first place is taken by such qualities as mass scale and cost of production, maintainability, modernization reserve, ease of use by the crew, etc. It is for these characteristics, and not for the battle tank, the T-34 was recognized as the best tank of the Second World War from its first to its last day. Having faced the T-34 and KV for the first time on the field, the Germans simply upgraded their T-IV by lengthening its cannon to 23 calibers and for 2 years this tank became the "best tank" of the 2nd World War in terms of combat characteristics, since it burned all our tanks beyond the reach of their artillery fire. And what did it give in the essential? By the Battle of Kursk, the Germans also had Panthers, as an answer to the T-34, so what? Ours and without T-34-85 fought back. In order for the equipment to show its advantage in a combat situation, such situations are not often created, and it is not equipment that is fighting, but people whose goal is to make the most of their advantages and disadvantages of the enemy's equipment and make it difficult for him to use his shortcomings. Why am I doing this? About five years ago, the press proudly presented information that our Armed Forces had purchased another batch of T-90 tanks and now their total number reaches 400 units. At the same time, there were 900 of them in the Indian Armed Forces, while they planned to produce 1000 more of these tanks under license.
        So I get the impression that we are forgetting the positive experience of the Soviet era and are making unreasonable bets on super-duper-fancy. Maybe I don’t understand something, or future wars are not expected to be so large-scale - like mafia showdowns at the interstate level with scarecrows who have better equipment. The amers already had such a concept of "military-technical superiority" - it turned out to be expensive and ineffective, and they stole and bluffed enough.
    5. +6
      2 June 2015 09: 49
      As the thinker said. Victory has many fathers; Defeat is always an orphan. Assign someone else's victory, at least technological, at least historical, in the West in the blood.
    6. +4
      2 June 2015 10: 15
      * Yeah, let them say that Armata direct heir Tiger 1 *-not Armata heiress Renault Yes -Russian “Renault” (or “Renault-Russian”, “Tank M”, “Tank KS” (Krasnoye Sormovo), “Tank “Freedom fighter comrade Lenin "", by the name of the first tank of the series) - first Soviet tank and first Russian tanklaunched into mass production bully . It was an almost complete copy of the French light tank Renault FT-17. It was produced in 1920-1921 at the Sormovsk plant (Nizhny Novgorod) in a small series of 15 cars. wink laughing tongue
      1. 0
        2 June 2015 18: 10
        Quote: Fantik13
        It was produced in 1920-1921 at the Sormovsk plant (Nizhny Novgorod) in a small series of 15 cars.

        I saw him in the square in front of the entrance. Is it worth it now? Nemtsov, governing, did not pass in scrap metal?
    7. The comment was deleted.
    8. +1
      2 June 2015 10: 42
      Well, if they started talking about "Armata" over the hill, it means there is something in it.
    9. +2
      2 June 2015 11: 38
      The Americans had the same project, a new tank, their version is more like the T-14, and in hardware it was made in one copy and not 30 years ago like the Germans had projects, in 1993. Apparently the Yankees pulled it off from the Germans (project!), But for some reason the Germans kept silent about this. Apparently because the German projects have nothing to do either with the American, not with our projects. "Lunakhod" (object 279) was built back in 1959 and the Germans stole from us its concept for a campaign the same? In short, envy, greed and Russophobia, bad advisers, and the articles are clearly ordered. Germany is sinking lower and lower.
      1. 0
        2 June 2015 17: 22
        Yes, even if ours whistled an idea, what was it? Others licked the Kalash not from the "idea" but from the finished product, and nothing: Galil + ACE + Vector, etc.
    10. 0
      2 June 2015 20: 21
      They can’t adequately tell))) however GLORY TO RUSSIA!
    11. +1
      2 June 2015 20: 54
      The glory of "ancient ukrov" does not give them rest, the Black Sea has already been dug.
      Tank with uninhabited combat module / uninhabited tower - done.
      It’s necessary to at least cling to something, to dripping the Black Sea as it’s dumb fool , in fact, only the tank remains. hi
    12. 0
      2 June 2015 21: 03
      It's not enough to come up with, you still need to bring it to life. And Russian engineers were the first to implement it. On this occasion, I recall the joke about the movie "Blue Thunder" when the Americans in the film dreamed about a super helicopter ... Well, in Hollywood they dreamed, and our engineers made the Ka-52 "Black Shark". And what of this, Manilov also dreamed, only did nothing !!!
    13. 0
      3 June 2015 10: 48
      she’s generally talking about nothing. who knows what blurted out, the main thing is who and how was able to put it into practice.
      if I say that there will be flying aircraft carriers in the future, then I will not be a pioneer in this regard, and even more so I will not make such crazy claims against the performer and creator of such equipment.
      Or if the capital of your state is taken by tanks with a concept similar to the one that your designers developed EVER, then you won’t scream loudly that the tanks are similar and created according to our concept.
      In short, the topic is sucked out of her finger by God. Ignored and moved on.
  2. +16
    2 June 2015 06: 47
    If this is their development, they have not built their own.
    1. +3
      2 June 2015 07: 01
      It would be surprising if only the lazy did not appropriate the development of Almaty. Well, they didn’t do that
    2. +8
      2 June 2015 07: 21
      Here I am also not catching up: the Germans claim that the basis of the "Armata" is their development three decades ago, and at the same time they declare that it will take about 15 years to build the answer to "Armata". What is the logic of the statement? What prevents you from instantly rolling out the answer if it was already ready, like three decades ago?
    3. +2
      2 June 2015 13: 57
      GDP during the blueprints stole when he worked in the GDR)))) and on a prototype he came to Moscow from Berlin)))
    4. 0
      2 June 2015 14: 22
      Because the project is not promising. Tanks with an uninhabited tower have their own shortcomings, and large ones, for which for some reason everyone in the Russian Federation is silently united!
      1. +1
        2 June 2015 16: 45
        Quote: Juleandr
        Tanks with an uninhabited tower have their own shortcomings, and large ones, which for some reason are all silently united in the Russian Federation!


        monoplanes have a bunch of big flaws compared to biplanes.
        And?
  3. +29
    2 June 2015 06: 51
    Wow infection what , surely, the Germans stole the idea ...
    Without a doubt...
    Two tracks, the gun sticks out in front ... Plagiarism on the face.

    When will something finally appear?
    1. +6
      2 June 2015 07: 19
      Quote: Corcap
      Wow infection what , surely, the Germans stole the idea ...
      Without a doubt...
      Two tracks, the gun sticks out in front ... Plagiarism on the face.

      When will something finally appear?

      If we talk about the roots, then all modern tanks, both ours and Western, come from the French Renault of the First World War with its rotating tower ...
      1. +4
        2 June 2015 07: 23
        Quote: PENZYAC
        If we talk about the roots, then all modern tanks, both ours and Western, come from the French Renault of the First World War with its rotating tower ...

        Nah, the Germans were the first to announce plagiarism. And whoever got up first, slippers ...
        1. +2
          2 June 2015 07: 59
          Quote: PENZYAC
          If we talk about the roots, then all modern tanks, both ours and Western, come from the French Renault of the First World War with its rotating tower ...



          Quote: Corsair
          Nah, the Germans were the first to announce plagiarism. And who first got up, that and slippers ..


          I almost forgot ... Amerikosy, until they were rampant (they were not at the Victory Parade, they were not seen request ), but they, too, are likely to make claims in connection with this:

          The image is clickable.
    2. +8
      2 June 2015 09: 48
      Quote: Corcap
      When will something finally appear?


      Here it is, "their own" ... No one definitely had this
      1. +2
        2 June 2015 13: 06
        Quote: Jon_ Quiet
        Here it is, "their own" ... No one definitely had this

        In the "metal", brought to the test, yes, apparently not.
        But that was the beginning, the path of trial and error.
        "Over the hill", too, God knows what they invented, though they never realized ...
      2. 0
        3 June 2015 10: 16
        This is plagiarism. This has already happened.

        http://www.wallon.ru/_ph/27/833908538.jpg?1433315759
      3. The comment was deleted.
    3. +1
      2 June 2015 15: 38
      Only then, not among the Germans, but among the British.
  4. +10
    2 June 2015 06: 52
    "The German edition of Die Welt has published several articles in which an interesting assumption is made about the origin of the new Russian project. The authors of the publication, citing experts, claim that the Russian project" Armata "is based on ideas borrowed from German specialists."

    Firstly, not only German specialists had such ideas. Both ours and Americans had them, now there are many articles on this subject.
    Secondly, even if it were so, then what is it? A common thing in the production of new equipment. This is not a frank copy-paste, as in China now or in Japan at the beginning of the last century. Yes, and you can put forward sooooo smart ideas as much as you want, but the winner will be the one who manages to implement these ideas.
    1. +1
      2 June 2015 09: 18
      Quote: mamont5

      Secondly, even if it were so, then what is it? A common thing in the production of new equipment. This is not a frank copy-paste, as in China now or in Japan at the beginning of the last century. Yes, and you can put forward sooooo smart ideas as much as you want, but the winner will be the one who manages to implement these ideas.

      exactly!
      Well, and used?
      What is the nightmare of gathering all the best in the world, casting out the worst in the world and creating the ideal? always have to do so!
  5. +6
    2 June 2015 06: 55
    Here is the root of Almaty, as I say, as an expert! laughing
    It was T-4, ours only added "1". fellow
    1. +20
      2 June 2015 07: 20
      Quote: SibRUS
      It was T-4, ours only added "1".

      This is T-VI "Tiger". T-IV is somewhat different from him laughing
    2. +1
      2 June 2015 16: 27
      Quote: SibRUS
      Here is the root of Almaty, as I say, as an expert! laughing
      It was T-4, ours only added "1". fellow

      handsome, you square practice gut.
    3. +1
      2 June 2015 18: 15
      Quote: SibRUS
      Here is the root of Almaty, as I say, as an expert! laughing
      It was T-4, ours only added "1". fellow

      This is not a T-4. This I do not claim as an expert.
  6. +7
    2 June 2015 06: 57
    Envy in silence, gentlemen! Moreover, Ukraine has already been the first to unsubscribe about the Ukrainian (Kharkov) roots of "Armata".
    1. +28
      2 June 2015 07: 00

      Moreover, Ukraine has already been the first to unsubscribe about the Ukrainian (Kharkov) roots of "Armata".
      The roots are a little different)))
  7. +6
    2 June 2015 06: 57
    Yes, they are just envious, and they blurted out, like our developments pick up
  8. +3
    2 June 2015 07: 01
    Know liked the car, if your roots go down. Stuck means bite.
  9. +7
    2 June 2015 07: 02
    And the first missiles were made by the ancient Chinese.
    1. +1
      2 June 2015 13: 32
      +1

      And also someone who once invented the wheel ..)))
  10. DPN
    +1
    2 June 2015 07: 04
    Why the hell to talk about some kind of roots, OUR TANK and there is no need to fool the heads of readers. According to this article, we are generally not capable of anything, I don’t like to praise, but it’s not good to put a shadow on the wattle fence.
    1. +3
      2 June 2015 07: 33
      Did you read the article at all or did you have enough headline?
  11. +7
    2 June 2015 07: 04
    Yes, what these freaks will listen to in different voices how clever they are and supposedly robbed them! Only they can think, only they invented 20 years ago, they thought up everything, but they couldn’t create it! ... Question why not? because besides fantasies like, let’s let us schandyur into a tank this and that and that ... in short, stupidly modernizing the leopard and gaining 8 tons in mass .. They’ve done PR * ONE with a fright they forgot whose tank building school was the Best in the world, well, there’s nothing to remind Daass ...
  12. wanderer_032
    +3
    2 June 2015 07: 16
    All the attempts of various Western hacks to pull by the ears the assertion that the T-14 "Armata" was created on the basis of some Western developments or projects is complete bullshit.
    If one of them claims to do so, then let them present a finished car, equipped at the same level as declared by all sorts of Western "experts".
    Statements that "we supposedly wanted to start, but we got it all stolen by damned Russians" look like the cry of an offended kindergarten child.
  13. +4
    2 June 2015 07: 20
    28 and 29 in May, the German edition of Die Welt has published several articles, which offer a curious assumption about the origin of the new Russian project. The authors of the publication, citing experts, argue that the basis of the Russian project "Armat" are ideas borrowed from German specialists. Moreover, the project, allegedly serving as a source of basic ideas, was developed several decades ago.
    Why, really, Russia borrowed the idea of ​​a tank from Great Britain, which it proposed 100 years ago ...
    Comedians.
    With all due respect to the German tank builders, their so-called "specialists" do not deserve a different name. And they know that back in the 70s, that is, 40 years ago, this concept was worked out and implemented, for example, at the Kharkov tank, under the leadership of Morozov. So, who stole ideas from whom?
    1. +2
      2 June 2015 11: 08
      laughing As there Vysotsky:

      "It's all bad devils muddy the water in the pond!
      Churchill invented it all in XNUMX! " laughing
  14. +4
    2 June 2015 07: 22
    ... Articles in Die Welt with a sweetheart .. the meaning is simple: not full-fledged Russians, robbed full-fledged Aryans .. The Russians themselves cannot do anything ...
  15. +3
    2 June 2015 07: 23
    even if there are some foreign developments in "Armata", they are still the first in the world to be introduced into a serial tank on a domestic base, with domestic equipment.
  16. +2
    2 June 2015 07: 26
    The version of the “German track” in this case turns out to be nothing more than a blown sensation that appeared against the backdrop of general hype around the first tank of a truly new generation.


    I really want to be ahead of the rest!

    But sometimes it’s useful for them to be in the fifth point in order to know their permanent place.
  17. +3
    2 June 2015 07: 31
    Our main idea was not to reduce the weight of the tank, although this was also taken into account, but in the survival of the crew in battle. The so-called survivability.
  18. +4
    2 June 2015 07: 42
    Why doesn’t Leonardo claim?
  19. -2
    2 June 2015 08: 00
    Well, if so? Und h.chego?
  20. +1
    2 June 2015 08: 12
    And so I want (the Germans) to cling to someone's glory and success.
  21. +7
    2 June 2015 08: 12
    We steal everything, we steal. "Kalashnikov" was stolen, the first into space, too, a German flew in 45 on a flying saucer, now they stole the tank that they wanted to make. To admit that the Russians have bypassed them again - they lack willpower.
  22. +2
    2 June 2015 08: 25
    Probably a lot where such projects are considered. Especially in connection with robotics. And the creation of an uninhabited tank. Only here such articles I have not met.
  23. 0
    2 June 2015 08: 37
    Quote: SibRUS
    Here is the root of Almaty, as I say, as an expert! laughing
    It was T-4, ours only added "1". fellow

    The tank index is not correct in relation to the image! T-4 is a completely different tank.
  24. +3
    2 June 2015 08: 38
    Nothing personal, only anger and envy
  25. Zorg
    +3
    2 June 2015 08: 39
    They blather, whine, they would build themselves and not look for whose ideas! Although the Germans, I understand they are afraid that the words "TO BERLIN" will appear on the Armats am
  26. 3vs
    +3
    2 June 2015 08: 39
    The Germans can invent all sorts of "arguments" in borrowing and proceed
    on .. exactly, but the fact remains - we made our tank and the Germans don’t!
  27. +3
    2 June 2015 09: 04
    This is because for Fritz weapons a way of extra income and for Russians, the condition of survival and paetamu, Russian weapons will be a priori higher class, more reliable, cheaper, better as long as Russia is alive. Russia will stand on that!))
  28. +4
    2 June 2015 09: 07
    An idea is not a material thing, ideas are in the air and it’s a sin not to use a good idea. To translate an idea into something material is a completely different matter and is not even very simple. Once, we embodied Christie's idea in metal and our high-speed tanks appeared. Once upon a time, the Germans used our idea of ​​a rational tilt of armor when designing Panthers. Does anyone use any ideas? So all this is empty talk about nothing.
  29. +1
    2 June 2015 09: 11
    Not a thing, so we’ll try to offend the word.
  30. +5
    2 June 2015 09: 12
    I am not an expert in armored vehicles. By the way, I don’t see the opinion of Kars as a well-known specialist on the topic, and so over the past six months I have read a lot of articles about "Armata" from "glued from plywood and cardboard" to "super-universal killer robot" and this is the opinion I have formed: the Ministry of Defense gave an order for a new tank, assuming, as always, thicker armor, a more powerful gun, an engine, but otherwise it should have turned out to be a familiar machine of the type that is in service. especially different, but then an incident came out. Our design engineers, as always with jokes, jokes, suddenly did something that on-the-go and did not understand what THIS was. And it is not only that it rides and shoots, but also completely changes the idea of ​​tanks and their use, but it was then that the generals were not ready for this. The tank, of course, faces long-term tests, but we must already have an idea of ​​where and for what purposes they want to use it. And the fact that the new tank was made in Russia is nothing surprising There is no one, we have always had enough bright minds and let NATO tankers piss with boiling water now, I think it will not be soon with them, something like this will appear, especially when the FRG Ministry of Defense is headed by a blonde gynecologist.
    1. +3
      2 June 2015 09: 45
      Quote: Captain45
      Our design engineers, as always with jokes and jokes, suddenly did something that in the process they themselves didn’t understand what IT was. And IT, not only did it go and shoot, it completely changed the idea of ​​tanks and their use and here the generals were not ready for this.

      laughing If you are not a humanist by education, you must understand that any product is just a project at first, and the project is developed on the basis of technical specifications, requirements and design assignments - therefore, they made no jokes about what happened - it cannot be principle.
      1. They gave clear requirements - weight no more, width, security such and such, a gun such and such with such and such parameters, universality of the base, maintainability.
      2. Consider the options offered by the Design Bureau - choose a couple of options as prototypes.
      3. We evaluated the performance characteristics of the prototypes, the difficulty in manufacturing and the cost - they chose the most suitable one.
      No jokes - the most complicated design work and dozens of years of experience.
  31. +1
    2 June 2015 09: 16
    Russian engineers used as a basis for their new project the concept previously proposed for updating tank troops and replacing existing Leopard 2 vehicles.
    , but I liked this "idea" ... Now if "aliens" from space appear, I will bill them for the "plates" that I drew as a child !!!
  32. +2
    2 June 2015 09: 17
    Consider an unexpected version of Die Welt, according to which the authors of the T-14 Armata project used other people's ideas and best practices.


    Well, and used?
    what is the nightmare of collecting all the best in the world, throwing away the worst in the world and creating the ideal.
  33. +2
    2 June 2015 09: 17
    Everything in our world is patented. And ideas too. There, Singer has patented a part of the devices of his sewing machine, so probably the Singer family still receives free money from manufacturers of sewing machines. Also with tanks. The Germans are patenting everything new. If the journalist does not provide information about the primacy of the idea among the Germans, then the Germans are not the first and they did not accept a patent for the idea of ​​such a tank. Our military inventors formalized their inventions within the USSR. Therefore, our military ideas may be the first, but not registered in the foreign patent system.
    It is difficult to argue at the global level, but the journalist is modestly silent about who was the first to patent this idea. So - this is definitely not the Germans.
  34. +3
    2 June 2015 09: 21
    Why are you so broke? They lie, they say, the Germans. In many countries of the world the idea of ​​a tank with an uninhabited tower was considered. But this does not mean that this idea belongs to them. Who created the first uses it.
  35. +3
    2 June 2015 09: 25
    The Germans in the war made their famous Panther trying to copy the T-34. It got to the point that one of the projects was refused because the tank was very similar to the T-34 and feared that the soldiers would confuse them on the battlefield. An article with a doc, supposedly Russian can only use foreign ideas. Here about ideas in Russia there has always been order. The issue in their embodiment here always began bumps and difficulties. At least the fragmentation-beam projectile, which was invented by a professor in Baumank, was copied and put into production in Germany. It’s good that Serdyukov was removed, it’s a pity they didn’t put him in prison. Otherwise, we would be buying Leopards now.
    1. wanderer_032
      +4
      2 June 2015 11: 05
      Quote: tank64rus
      The Germans in the war made their famous Panther trying to copy the T-34.


      They did not try to copy the 34th. And they made their car. But at the same time we borrowed technical solutions from our design engineers on inclined reservation of the armored hull and turret.

      The difference in the design of the Pz-V and T-34 (85) is obvious.










      This is the different location of the turret (for a German tank it is located in the center of the armored hull, and for the T-34 (85) it is located in the front of it), the different chassis (for the Germans have a torsion bar suspension, ours have a spring suspension; for a German tank the checkerboard has a staggered arrangement rollers, in our paired rollers mounted on one node of the suspension), a different transmission (in a German tank it is located in front of the armored hull, in our aft), different engines (the Germans have a carburetor, ours have a diesel).
      1. +4
        2 June 2015 12: 05
        Quote: wanderer_032
        They did not try to copy the 34th. And they made their car.

        The Germans had VK 3002 (DB), very similar to the T-34. Diesel, rear MTO, tower in front of the hull, inclined reservation.
        But he lost the competition for a new tank to replace the "three" and "four".
        1. wanderer_032
          +2
          2 June 2015 20: 07
          Quote: Alexey RA
          But he lost the competition for a new tank to replace the "three" and "four".


          The front location of the tower loads the front suspension units.
          The accuracy of firing from a gun significantly decreases, because. the tank "bites" its nose and sways strongly when starting / braking (and on any type of suspension).
          Even on a relatively flat terrain, firing on the move with such an arrangement of the turret is very difficult due to the strong fluctuations of the gun when moving. When the tower is located in the center of the building, the influence of these negative factors is significantly reduced.

          Perhaps it was these inherent design flaws that became the reason for designing a new tank, rather than copying ours.
          German cars during World War II, anyway, had a more balanced design. This explains the front transmission on German tanks of that period. The installation of the tower in the center of the armored hull gave the battle a significant advantage in the accuracy of firing from a gun.
          By the way, our engineers subsequently also refused such an arrangement of the tower on medium tanks, at least. T-44 and all subsequent vehicles, confirmation of this.
          1. +1
            3 June 2015 03: 49
            good I fully support, but I will introduce my 2 points:
            1) According to - VK 3002 (DB), there was a nuance of loss, in that it was planned to put a diesel engine on it. But to produce it on a large scale, at that time (without the construction of new production facilities) could not. + There were problems with logistics, in terms of fuel and production - the solarium itself. And then the erroneous opinion was confirmed that German engineers could not make a decent diesel engine .. laughing
            2) According to the "front" placement of the turret on our tanks, the main problem was in the layout of the MTO, due to the width restrictions and the lack of suitable gearboxes, clutches, we had to put the engine across .., as a result, it "came out" closer to the central part ... IK Koshkin, perfectly aware of this problem, therefore, as it became possible, proposed the concept - T 44 with the location of the MTO along, which shifted the tower to the center .. But interrupt the production of T 34 and launch a new "raw" model with better characteristics , at the time of the war, was deemed not appropriate. hi
          2. The comment was deleted.
  36. +2
    2 June 2015 09: 27
    Should I respond to barking? People who do not understand the laws of technological development are not worthy of technical discussion. Well, it’s not profitable to put binoculars on the ass (although it can be done with the help of mirrors or fiber optics) - the technique is so arranged that mass series follow rare routes (rarely more than three), given by the laws of technology and economics.

    Let them look at the fighters of the end of World War II and say who copied from whom, or compare Concord with TU-2, etc., down to the usual spoon.
  37. +1
    2 June 2015 09: 43
    The dogs bark - the caravan moves on. The most important thing now is field testing, updating weapons and communications systems, developing new tactical principles of combat, developing new, completely domestic software products for interaction on the battlefield with other ground and flying combat vehicles (including developments such as "swarm intelligence").
  38. +2
    2 June 2015 09: 57
    That's where the logic is? The German writes that their ideas are German, and it will take 15 years to develop an answer to "Armata".
  39. +1
    2 June 2015 10: 40
    How many ideas have they communized with us? The main thing is where these ideas were realized.
  40. +7
    2 June 2015 11: 11
    I wonder why there is no information anywhere on the boomerang, the silence as if it had not happened at all. Can it really be a problem?
    1. wanderer_032
      +2
      2 June 2015 20: 18
      Quote: Mikelanjelo
      I wonder why there is no information anywhere on the boomerang, the silence as if it had not happened at all.


      "Boomerang" is a "quiet surprise" wink , but so far requires refinement.
      The car is well conceived, the level of protection is not worse than that of NATO.
      And the armament is even better. Well, driving performance, as always on top should be.
      As with all of our wheeled armored personnel carriers / BRDM, etc.
  41. +3
    2 June 2015 11: 12
    Gay European schizophrenia started! According to this delusional logic, our T-34 tank is American, since the ideas of the Christie tank purchased by the USSR were used in its construction. And the German "Panther" is a Russian tank, as it was "licked" from our thirty-four. Insanity grows stronger. If there is not enough brains in the overweight geyrope to come up with something, do not drag the blanket of Russian inventions over yourself!
  42. +2
    2 June 2015 11: 15
    Honestly, I have never understood the meaning of either a German article, or this or similar. The idea of ​​an uninhabited tower was worked out in my opinion from the 60s by designers from different countries and in various versions.
    The question is, who first had the courage to put it into practice. And who needed it.
    NADO turned out to be for us, but NATO, it seems, is not fucking NATO. They prefer the aviation component.
  43. +1
    2 June 2015 12: 29
    Nonsense some German, sir! It is clear throughout the history of tank construction that the designers take into account and apply all the international experience and construct available to them. But mostly domestic. And it was enough.
  44. +1
    2 June 2015 12: 50
    In St. Petersburg, in PSUPS June 9-11, a conference on levitation, with a demonstration of a vehicle model.
    Taki can immediately nail the idea of ​​a flying tank, so that after 20 years they would not yell again - our idea was.
  45. 0
    2 June 2015 13: 36
    Armata still needs to complete several weaknesses. For example, radars are open for direct hit, which will inevitably and quickly lead them to failure. So they need to be arranged in a different way, for example, at the bottom of a small vertical shaft, above which there will be a certain reflector. If the reflector is damaged, then the loss is small, and the radar is a little expensive.
    1. 0
      2 June 2015 16: 49
      Quote: Tektor
      If the reflector is damaged, then the loss is small, and the radar is a little expensive.

      The radar antenna is the "reflector" itself Especially the AFAR, there are no moving parts, and the electronics are all in the case.
  46. 0
    2 June 2015 13: 45
    smile Yeah, I remember that the T-34 was also called almost a direct analogue of the Christie tank ...
    Firstly, the T-34 from Christie’s tank had only a suspension, which, however, could be replaced with a torsion bar already during World War II, but did not begin to risk a possible reduction in the number of tanks produced.
    And secondly ... suppose (purely hypothetically) that the T-34 is a Christie tank ... then why was the Christie tank considered unpromising in the United States and the USSR quite legally bought a patent for it? while the T-34 is recognized as the best tank of the time ... yesterday's hopelessness suddenly became the best tank?
    smile
    Christie’s tank was necessary for the quick gain of experience by our designers, who, in order not to start from scratch, quickly went through the formation stage and developed their own tank
    1. 0
      2 June 2015 16: 51
      Quote: _my opinion
      Firstly, the T-34 from Christie’s tank had only a suspension, which, however, could be replaced with a torsion bar already during World War II, but did not begin to risk a possible reduction in the number of tanks produced.

      Not only. The transmission and gearbox T-34 was also borrowed from BT.
      We take the book of the Pavlov brothers and Co. "Tanks BT" and their other book "Unknown T-34" and compare:

      The box on the T-34 "two-shaft, three-way, four-speed, had four gears for moving forward and one gear for reverse. The gearbox was made without a direct transmission with the shafts in one horizontal plane. It had an aluminum crankcase, consisting of two halves."

      Box on BT-7: "In connection with the installation of a new engine, the four-speed gearbox was replaced in 1937 with a reinforced three-speed gearbox. Subsequently, a new reinforced four-speed gearbox was developed and installed on tanks ..."

      If you look at their images - the same scheme. Both that, and another did not have gears of constant gearing and synchronizers. In both, gear shifting was carried out by axial movement of the gears, which introduced them into gearing.

      Let's compare the main clutches. On T-34: "Multi-disc main clutch of dry friction steel on steel ..." On BT-7 "multi-disc main clutch (steel on steel)".

      If my opinion is not enough, I will quote Svirin on this subject:

      1. "T-34 - there is a BT-type tank, but with a streamlined hull and 45-mm armor. And it retained all the archaic BT-7 mechanisms, to which the unfinished V-2 engine was added."
      2. "T-34, if not a bitch, then a dead end or finish (who likes what) of the BT-Christie line."
      3. "The BT line was cut off at the T-34".

      http://fat-yankey.livejournal.com/45986.html

      However, there is a simple explanation for such a borrowing. And his name is machine tool park and technology.
      We will cite only one fragment from the memoirs of the director of UTZ Yu. E. Maksarev: “The GABTU requirements included a point to switch to a 5-speed gearbox, and this requirement was correct. But we were connected by a special boring machine, which immediately gave coaxial, precise holes for side bearings and the main shaft, also ensured a strict perpendicularity of the bearing bore of the drive shaft from the main shaft clutch with a bevel gear. This machine was still obtained for the BT-5 variable gearbox and was the "Procrustean bed" that determined all subsequent gearboxes BT-7, A-20, A-32 and T-34. "
      1. wanderer_032
        0
        2 June 2015 20: 28
        Quote: Alexey RA
        The transmission and gearbox T-34 was also borrowed from BT


        This is not true. This is especially true for the transmission.



        This is a BT transmission.



        Transmission T-34.

        As you can see, the transmission is radically different for these tanks. As for the checkpoint, on the T-34 it is also of a slightly different design. Because the tank was heavier than the BT. Accordingly, all the details at the checkpoint of both tanks were also different.
    2. 0
      2 June 2015 16: 59
      Quote: _my opinion
      And secondly ... suppose (purely hypothetically) that the T-34 is a Christie tank ... then why was the Christie tank considered unpromising in the United States and the USSR quite legally bought a patent for it? while the T-34 is recognized as the best tank of the time ... yesterday's hopelessness suddenly became the best tank?

      Because in the US Army at the time, the emphasis was on the Air Force and coastal defense. They simply did not need fast "cavalry" tanks.
      But as it smelled of fried, Christie's ideas were immediately pulled out of the archives. And Christie's suspension appeared in the British cruising tanks - "Covenanters", "crusaders" and their descendants.
  47. -8
    2 June 2015 14: 24
    Western experts were waiting with curiosity for the parade to see what the Russians had created so "revolutionary" in tank building. Curiosity quickly changed to boredom and frustration. Nothing new, let alone revolutionary, was presented. A similar line-up (crew inside an armored capsule + uninhabited tower) was developed in the west back in the distant 80s. German designers recognized this design as unsuccessful and curtailed work even at the level of drawings. The Americans went further and created a prototype by running it at a test site. The project was closed, and the prototype is still rusting in the courtyard. The lineup has a number of significant drawbacks: 1) The commander does not have a 360 degree optical view. Instead, several monitors and cameras transmit images by sector, which greatly improves coordination and real assessment of the situation. 2) in the event of damage to the electrics (its short circuit to the body), the voltage drops and the cameras with monitors go out, turning the entire crew into passengers and the tank into a tractor. 3) in case of damage or even banal contamination of the cameras, dead zones appear. 4) the combat module has weaker armor than the turret and it is easier to damage it by turning the tank into a tractor. 5) when the front of the car is blocked, say by the rubble of a building, all hatches remain locked at the same time. None of the crew members are able to leave the wrecked tank and call for help.

    Tank, this is a compromise of a number of factors and having left the inhabited towers, tank builders entered a new field with new problems, but the revolution still did not work !!!
    1. 0
      2 June 2015 22: 39
      1) The commander does not have an optical review of 360 degrees. Instead, several monitors and cameras transmitting images by sectors, which greatly improves coordination and real-world assessments.

      But the picture from the camera is easier to enlarge. All expensive modern cars have a rear view camera, why can’t they be used in tanks?
      2) in case of damage to the electrics (its short circuit to the body), the voltage drops and the cameras with monitors go out turning the entire crew into passengers and the tank into a tractor.

      This is a question of finding "fleas", because if you turn off the power to any tank, it turns not even into a tractor, but scrap metal.
      3) in case of damage or even banal pollution of the cells, dead zones appear.

      And what optical observation devices can not be damaged?
      As I wrote about cars, rear-view cameras are also dirty, but how can this be solved, for example, with a windshield washer, duplication of cameras, or something else, but you can solve it.
      4) the combat module has weaker armoring than the tower and it is easier to damage it, turning the tank into a tractor.

      Has someone already told you about the reservation specifications? Or is it technically impossible to increase the reservation of a combat module like on a tower?
      5) when the front part of the car is obstructed, let us say fragments of the building, all hatches remain blocked at the same time. None of the crew members are able to leave the wrecked tank and call for help.

      Here, yes, maybe so, but it is known for sure that there is no hatch, for example, in the floor?
      1. 0
        20 September 2015 01: 40
        Quote: LeeDer
        But the picture from the camera is easier to enlarge. All expensive modern cars have a rear view camera, why can’t they be used in tanks?

        Of course, you can use them on tanks, but as additional equipment. Speaking with your alligories and examples: Have you ever seen a car without rear-view mirrors, without a rear window, but with a rear-view camera? Also, did you see the guard's remote control in the mall? There is a video display from many cameras. The security guard knows the shopping center well, therefore he is well guided by the image of the cameras, but it is difficult for an outside observer to understand where the camera is installed and what it shows. The tanker, the picture is not static. A tank moves and often moves in unfamiliar terrain; it is not so easy to assemble an image from several cameras in a single image of a circular view in a few seconds.

        Quote: LeeDer
        This is a question of finding "fleas", because if you turn off the power to any tank, it turns not even into a tractor, but scrap metal.

        If you isolate, then yes, but if a voltage drop occurs? The display is one of the biggest energy eaters. In modern aircraft, this problem is solved by turning off minor devices by blocks and displaying important parameters on the main display. This is enough to bring the plane to the airport and for landing. With a battle tank the same thing is enough to take the tank out of battle and get to rem. base, but in battle you need to use the full potential, but there is no dubbing!
        Quote: LeeDer
        And what optical observation devices can not be damaged?
        As I wrote about cars, rear-view cameras are also dirty, but how can this be solved, for example, with a windshield washer, duplication of cameras, or something else, but you can solve it.

        Optics can also be damaged, but in extreme cases there is a good old way: to open the hatch with two fingers and look around 360 degrees. The commander of Almaty simply does not have such an option.
        Quote: LeeDer
        Has someone already told you about the reservation specifications? Or is it technically impossible to increase the reservation of a combat module like on a tower?

        Technically, it is possible to increase the reservation of a combat module, but it is difficult. By reducing the reserved space in the module relative to the tower, the weight was released, which was used to reserve the capsule with the crew, without increasing the weight of the tank. If you start to increase the module reservation now, the weight of the tank will quickly creep to the top and its driving performance will seriously suffer. A tank is a compromise between firepower, armor and driving performance. Improving one, as a rule, suffers another.
        Quote: LeeDer
        Here, yes, maybe so, but it is known for sure that there is no hatch, for example, in the floor?

        Hatches in the floor have not been done for a long time, since this is a weak point when undermining a tank mine or a land mine. I do not know the presence or absence of a hatch in the floor of the reinforcement, but personally, I am sure of the absence of one.

        In general, I am not against armata. Who does not try, he does not achieve results. But personally, I think that the armata tank (at least in the form that was shown at the parade) is only a propaganda move. Armata chassis is more suitable for heavy infantry fighting vehicles, MANPADS, ARVs ....
        To be honest, I think that Armata as a tank will not go into a large series. IMHO of course.
    2. 0
      3 June 2015 00: 43
      And what, some kind of epic revolution was to happen? In my opinion, it’s just that Russian tank dealers decided to cut down a new generation and that’s all. And all kinds of high-handed journalists there, about some kind of revolution, to listen to and believe in them is at least silly ...
  48. +6
    2 June 2015 14: 29
    And nothing that the "Black Eagle" tank with an uninhabited turret was tested in Russia? His achievements were useful in "Armata". Or "Black Eagle" was also copied from a foreign-bourgeois project? laughing
    1. wanderer_032
      0
      2 June 2015 20: 45
      Quote: 0255
      And nothing that the "Black Eagle" tank with an uninhabited turret was tested in Russia?


      Not certainly in that way. In this tank, the crew is in the tower, but its jobs are located below the level of its shoulder strap. Its main volume was to be occupied by various equipment of the FCS and other systems.
  49. +2
    2 June 2015 14: 41
    bad excuses
    admit that you also stole caterpillars from the Germans!
  50. -1
    2 June 2015 15: 09
    Dividing the skin of an unkilled bear, nothing is yet clear about this "Armata", maybe they will spit once again and limit themselves to which thread T 90 D3 wassat But everyone is already appropriating it to himself.
  51. 0
    2 June 2015 15: 33
    Quote: Magic Archer
    Oh, why and in boasting dill surpassed ALL! And the Bastion is the best and other weapon, but the fact that this is all the Soviet legacy is modestly silent about this wink


    That's it!!!
    Moreover, historically Kharkov is a Russian city, and the tank design school is also Russian!!!
  52. 0
    2 June 2015 15: 44
    Exactly, all the Russians copied everything, stole the developments... They invented all this before us, etc., etc.!
    Of course, where are our designers and engineers (they are still probably slurping cabbage soup with bast shoes); only European or American geniuses are capable of such masterpieces!
  53. 0
    2 June 2015 15: 54
    This is how a European differs from a Russian. While they are developing hypotheses, we are developing tanks.
  54. 0
    2 June 2015 15: 55
    Tiger. Municipal district of Snegiri
  55. -1
    2 June 2015 16: 14
    [quote=ImperialKolorad]Yeah, let them also say that Armata is the direct successor of Tiger 1. After all, they have similar mass and angular turrets.[/
    Yeah, and caterpillars too.
  56. 0
    2 June 2015 16: 43
    While they intend, we implement.
  57. 0
    2 June 2015 19: 59
    Everything new is well-forgotten old, and according to German arguments, it’s like the Eastern proverb - the dog barks, but the caravan moves on. With their tolerance and “concern” for their neighbors, they are simply offended that the Russians showed humanity and made the crew as protected as possible.
  58. +1
    2 June 2015 20: 03
    The most complete version of the borrowing of German developments is revealed in the article Russischer Super-Panzer kopiert deutsche Ideen (“Russian super-tank copies German ideas”)

    This is a fairly old trick of Western propagandists. If we recall a little history, we were accused that the TU-144 was copying the Concorde. This means that our developers did everything right, if Western envious people started drooling and snot.
  59. s1н7т
    +1
    2 June 2015 20: 08
    All the comments are “no strength”. But back in the late 80s they said there should be 2 tanks. One is 2-membered, the other is 3-membered. The MTO is in front, the capsule is immediately behind the fighting compartment. 2-member works in a single information network, the commander does not need to engage in target reconnaissance and target designation, two are enough there. KTR has a 3-member tank, because it is necessary to monitor the situation and provide command and control for the company’s vehicles. But who would listen to the troops?
  60. +1
    2 June 2015 22: 18
    In fact, "Armata" is a copy of the iron fire-breathing bull of the ancient Ukrainians. They were also used during the Third Dinosaur War for Atlantis!
  61. +1
    2 June 2015 22: 23
    Reminds me of comparing the AK-47 with the German STG-44. There is something in common, but nothing more.
    In general, Armata should have been made just for the sake of the hype. laughing
    No, I’m not belittling its capabilities at all, but it made so much noise that it’s probably already paid for itself!
  62. 0
    3 June 2015 00: 10
    "Russian engineers used as the basis for their new project a concept previously proposed to update tank forces and replace existing Leopard 2 vehicles"

    Even if so... In a big family.. Face...
  63. wadding
    0
    3 June 2015 15: 15
    ok, stole their idea. then everything is fine for them, the original is always better than the copy, China has proven this))) which means they don’t need 15 years as they planned for development, they’ll just uncover the archives, adapt to new technologies, and oops, the counterweight to Armata is ready, and since that their development, then they know all the weaknesses, everything)) Armata is outdated and has lost relevance, even before state tests))) guard)))
  64. 0
    3 June 2015 16: 27
    The Germans were crushed by a toad.
    Soon the Britons will start whining that the British created the first tank and Russian designers are plagiarizing the English idea.
  65. 0
    3 June 2015 18: 13
    The Germans and Americans wanted to stuff the uninhabited tower into the MBT-70. But they didn’t master it.
  66. 0
    7 June 2015 17: 35
    The idea of ​​blasters and flying saucers was also invented by science fiction writers and is being developed by enthusiasts and some laboratories. But it’s one thing to have a drawing or model, another thing: to translate it into metal, based on accurate calculations, and get something that was previously only fantasy. Already with a similar layout, the Armata disturbed the minds of more than one engineer, and if you take the goal of improving the tank, the Armata will still work, since the traditional design has outlived its usefulness. Russia took a risk, invested and continues to invest crazy amounts of money in Armata, but it’s worth it. You'll see: foreign clones of the Armata will soon appear, but much worse. How the Germans tried to make something like the T 34 and made a heavy and complex panther. Armata is the future!
  67. 0
    9 June 2015 20: 31
    But how did the Chinese auto industry remain unnoticed by German journalists? They (the Chinese) copy the products of the German troika down to the smallest detail!!! And silence! hi
  68. 0
    20 September 2015 02: 00
    Quote: LeeDer
    Reminds me of comparing the AK-47 with the German STG-44. There is something in common, but nothing more.

    Well, not exactly. There are certain concepts, and the rest is trifles. The creator of the STG-44, Hugo Schmeisser, made a revolutionary breakthrough. He created the concept and a full-fledged assault rifle chambered for an intermediate cartridge. So, the StG-44 was the conceptual basis for all assault rifles/machine guns, including the AK-47. The reloading and cartridge feeding mechanism of the AK-47 is fundamentally different from that of the StG-44, which turned out to be more rational and optimal.