The concept of building a tank support combat vehicle

86
The concept of building a tank support combat vehicle


Support combat vehicle tanks was developed and first introduced at arms exhibitions more than ten years ago. On the whole, experts gave her a positive assessment; individual comments were of a private nature. The effectiveness of the BMPT was proved by calculations, high-level managers recommended its introduction into the tank units. Tank support combat vehicles are widely advertised and continue to participate in exhibitions of military equipment. Moreover, in recent years, in the open press, the BMPT is considered an integral part of the tank units operating with the direct support of infantry on the BMP.

The need to provide support for tanks on the battlefield is obvious. However, in the BMPT troops are absent to date, and the prospects for their appearance are still very uncertain. And the reasons for this, apparently, several.

One of them is economic expediency. It is determined using the “cost-effectiveness” criterion. Official data on the cost of BMPTs are not published in the open press, however, despite the base unified with the T-72 tank, the level of its configuration suggests that it is quite high. Nevertheless, the high cost can be considered justified when deciding on the purchase of equipment, subject to the proof of its high efficiency.

And here there are some difficulties. The fact is that the effectiveness of BMPT is not confirmed in practice, and the percentage reduction in tank losses when it is used, calculated by mathematical modeling methods, is not a convincing argument that is guided by the following conclusions:

- the novelty of the existing BMPT consists solely in its purpose and armament complex, in which the artillery component is not sufficiently convincing;

- Armed with the armies of the world there are no analogues with which it would be possible to compare the performance characteristics of this machine, compared with the trends in the development of tank building;
- BMPTs are not in service in the Russian troops, which makes it impossible to appreciate its operational qualities, determine the optimal ratio of "tank - BMPT" in the subunit, understand the methods of combat use of this new product;

- The existing set of weapons BMPT does not provide effective destruction of all types of tank-dangerous targets (TOC).

As you can see, the arguments are serious, and the financial side seems to be secondary here. So, is BMPT needed, and if so, which one?

The development of BMPT is an attempt to systematically solve the problem of reducing tank losses, which requires its logical conclusion. But in order to move on, we need a new concept of BMPT, the main points of which are presented below.

Currently, the fight against tanks and other armored vehicles is conducted not only by special anti-tank weapons, but also aviation, and general purpose tools. In addition, almost all combined arms divisions of the armies of developed countries have in their arsenal the means of fighting tanks. We also note that most of the above funds belong to the category of high-precision weapons. This evolution of anti-tank weapons (PTS), their transformation into an anti-tank defense system, including ground and air vehicles, including those combined into reconnaissance and attack systems, led to the fact that it was necessary to protect tanks, which, due to their heavy losses , "Buried" after each local conflict of the second half of the last century. This is not surprising: in recent years, there were TCP, from which the tanks constructively do not have the necessary protection. For example, helicopters or PTS, striking tanks from above or because of shelters outside the line of sight.

It is known that only a system can successfully operate against a system. And such a layered system of struggle with enemy fire weapons exists. Conventionally, it is subdivided into echelons, starting with aviation - the most long-range means and ending with the last echelon - by tank divisions themselves. But this last echelon now gets too “heavy burden”: a rapid change in the situation, a large number of ground and air tank-dangerous targets on the battlefield, limited visibility in rough and wooded areas, in urban areas, inevitable loss of control. The honored inventor of Russia V. Odintsov in one of his publications called this provision “the tragedy of the tank”. More precisely you will not tell.

Thus, the enemy’s anti-PTS system exists, but its information capabilities and the reaction time of its individual subsystems are insufficient, and tanks, as a rule, in maneuverable combat forms will remain only with the infantry supporting them and covering units of the troop defense system "). However, in local conflicts of the last decades, the “loop” did not confirm its reliability. Especially in repelling the attacks of special attack helicopters (SUV), which are a headache not only for tankers, but also for anti-aircraft gunners. Much has been written about the losses of tanks from SUV strikes, and the conclusions seemed to be made. But they concerned ways of self-defense of tanks and, mainly, the development of military air defense weapons. But it turned out that these conditions are necessary, but insufficient: the tanks cannot protect themselves from the impacts of the SUV. In order for the tanks to fight the helicopters, it is necessary to increase their reconnaissance capabilities, increase the ammunition load (BK) and gun speed (hence the power of the power plant and drive), introduce special ammunition into the BC, and so on. But then it will be the next generation tank.

Short-range anti-aircraft systems (ZKBD) - the main means of covering those parts and divisions. They were the main focus in the fight against WOS. But it did not come true because of the difficulty of detecting helicopters using the terrain to attack, the relatively long reaction time of these complexes and their high vulnerability to all types of enemy fire. After all, the tactical zone, within which most of the anti-aircraft units are located, is most densely suppressed by various means of enemy fire attack. At the same time, the reduced damage area of ​​the ZSU, ZPRK and short-range air defense systems is several times larger than that of the tank. In addition, they are one of the main targets of enemy artillery.

Deleting an airborne safety control system at a safe distance may result in the terrain conditions not allowing to detect the target in time and open fire on it. Yes, and fire capabilities in range in this case may be insufficient. This also applies to the Tunguska air defense missile system. Even its high fire capabilities will not save from losses due to enemy artillery fire. Meanwhile, the importance of timely impact on the target, using the terrain to select the line of attack, suggests the presence of means of cover that are in close proximity to the object of cover.



Considering the situation of the opposition "tank - TOTS" even in a simplified form as a duel, it is necessary to note three circumstances.
Firstly, on the battlefield, all targets, with the exception of fortifications, have a limited time during the periods of observation and shelling, that is, they are, by definition, temporarily operational. Most of all this is characteristic of WOS, which relate to goals for which time of visual or instrument contact with air defense weapons is limited.

When assessing the effectiveness of shooting at such a goal, it is necessary to take into account the point in time at which the defeat of the target was achieved. The sooner this moment comes, the more effective the shooting will be. If the target has finished its action (shooting, launching rockets, etc.), then shooting at it, as a rule, is impossible or ineffective. Using the methods of investigating operations, it is proved that in the duel situation under consideration SUV - ZK, even if we take the probability of hitting an air target as a unit (hypothetical case), the damage from its action will not be zero, but will depend on the ratio of the time of the start of fire and the duration of the target.

Secondly, the probability of hitting targets during combat due to objective technical and tactical reasons for tanks and BMPs supporting them will inevitably be significantly lower than the range. The same applies to the air defense systems covering the tanks and infantry. A possible solution to the problem in this situation may be an increase in the number of target channels acting on the principle of "saw-shoot". Fearing excessive concentration of fire in this case is not worth it because of the low probability of detection and the short duration of the targets. In such conditions, BMPT with a more advanced than the tanks, information management system (ICS) would be very useful. Unlike the tank, the design features of the BMPT make it possible to have such a system and more effectively carry out the search and defeat of the TOC.

Thirdly, it is impossible not to note one more circumstance that eludes the attention of the authors of publications on tank topics. At one time, when the danger of batches to tanks was realized, pilot exercises were held in the Soviet Union, during which tactical methods of dealing with this type of targets were developed. It turned out that tankers, psychologically purely, pay more attention to defeating those targets that are easier to destroy, that is, tanks. This is natural, since all the tanks are created according to the principle of “beat the equal,” for which they have the appropriate armament. Another matter of the BMPT: “having taken over” the air and ground TOC, they would greatly facilitate tank crews to fight against enemy tanks.

It seems that the presence of BMPT in combat formations will to some extent solve these problems.

Another important aspect of the use of BMPT is the fight against the enemy’s tank-dangerous manpower (TOGS). The BMPT armament complex, consisting of an automatic cannon, anti-tank guided missiles, an automatic grenade launcher and machine guns, cannot be solved.

Shooting from a cannon at tank-dangerous manpower, located in shelters, is ineffective, and behind obstacles (for example, on the reverse slopes of heights or behind buildings when conducting combat in a populated area) is completely impossible.

Do not provide reliable destruction of such targets and automatic grenade launchers due to the weak power of the grenade and low accuracy at short distances. As a matter of fact, the BMPT course grenades are not intended for this: the angle of elevation is not designed for shooting indirect fire. Not much benefit from them will be when shooting in the winter with deep snow cover. To defeat such targets, it is necessary that the BMPT weapon set contains a weapon that can fire not only direct, half-direct, but also indirect fire, that is, combining the qualities of a cannon and mortar (it’s not by chance that Israelis install 60 mm mortars on their towers "Merkav").

Such guns belong to the guns of the combined type and are capable of firing both mines and projectiles (rockets). They are in service in the Russian army and in the armies of some other countries. But they were not designed to solve the problems under consideration. However, in the creation (refinement) of such weapons is not unusual. How many such problems have already arisen and were successfully resolved by Russian gunsmiths.

It is advisable that the caliber of the combined gun (CO) was 82-mm. In this case, the task of creating a KO will be greatly facilitated due to the fact that: there is one of the two types of ammunition - 82-mm mine; since the Great Patriotic War, technical solutions are known that make it possible to combine the features of mortar firing with a classic cannon shot in one semi-automatic weapon; there will be no big problems with the automatic loader; IUS is similar to that of BMPT. This list can be continued further. However, it should be borne in mind that KO is not a universal weapon and integration with 30-mm AP, AGS and machine gun will be necessary. There is a good groundwork for the development of this tool. Prospects are attractive at all: if there is a projectile in the ammunition with ready striking elements and undermining at a set range, homing roof-breaking mine and reconnaissance mine, BMPT can become a tactical reconnaissance and firing complex with good prospects.



It is known that the emergence of fundamentally new models or weapon systems, even if they are not based on the latest scientific discoveries, but developed using the technological level already achieved, can influence the tactics of combat. This provision fully applies to BMPTs: equipping tank units with them, of course, will not make a revolution in military affairs, like nuclear weapons, or will radically change the strategy of warfare thanks to advances in information and computing systems. However, they will have an impact on the tactics of combined-arms combat:

- losses of tanks in all types of combat and infantry fighting vehicles supporting tanks will decrease;

- it will be more rational to use ammunition (BC) tanks and, perhaps, there will be no need to increase the range of ammunition in the BC because of the inclusion of fundamentally new with increased efficiency of TOTs;

- tank units will acquire greater autonomy, which is important given the dynamic nature of modern combined-arms combat and actions under special conditions;

- BMPT can be very effective and as an independent fire weapon in anti-terrorist operations and local conflicts of low intensity;

- Tactical standards of air defense systems may change due to the greater distance from the combat contact system. This will reduce their losses, will allow better use of the terrain to select starting (firing) positions and, accordingly, will increase the effectiveness of the air defense system as a whole.
As we see, the considered tactical aspect of the problem is important in itself. But there is another equally significant aspect - military-political, expressed in the form of military-technical cooperation (MTC), one of the directions of which is the export of weapons. Needless to say, how important it is for Russia - one of the world's largest exporters. In this regard, export prospects for the promotion of BMPT in the arms market, from a tactical point of view, should be very favorable.

There are a number of arguments in support of the BMPT, but we will dwell on one thing - the prestige of the state. This concept has a pronounced political character and is in some way related to another - a priority in development. We make one small excursion into history.

In Russia, the tank’s birthday is considered 18 May 1915. It was on that day, near Riga, that the tests of an armored combat vehicle created by Alexander Porokhovshchikov and having all the attributes of a modern tank began. "All-terrain vehicle" (the so-called this fighting machine) successfully passed the tests, and the team of creators was ready in the shortest possible time to "bring" the machine and even make it floating. However, due to the short-sightedness of the leadership of the Main Military Technical Directorate, A. Porokhovshchikov’s project did not receive support. A number of other projects of tracked combat vehicles that were developed at about the same time as the Rover were also not accepted.

Almost a year and a half after A. Porokhovshchikov, England opened a new era in the development of means of warfare. Russia has lost priority in creating a new type of combat vehicles, which received the short and expressive name "tank". Of course, the works of the first Russian tank builders were not in vain. The rapid development of tank building in the Soviet Union in the 20 – 30-s of the last century, equipping the army with tanks that are not inferior to the best world models, and according to a number of indicators and superior to them - this is also the merit of the predecessors.

With that said, let us allow ourselves to express such a perhaps somewhat categorical idea: the fate of the BMPT, a new direction in the development of armored vehicles created in Russia several years ago, can repeat the fate of the all-terrain vehicle. This once again proves the importance of developing a new concept of BMPT, which incorporates all the best that exists in the existing model, and fully meets the conditions of the contact phase of a modern war. The concept, in which, in addition to the detailed look of the BMPT, issues of structure, management and information support (interfacing) with higher-level systems, including military air defense, are resolved. Only with this approach is it possible to quickly advance the project and retain the achieved priority.
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  1. +1
    21 February 2015 07: 09
    AGSs are superfluous, and the weapons and ammunition are not quite enough at the Terminator
    1. +6
      21 February 2015 15: 51
      Yes, the very idea of ​​such a machine is very sound, and the chosen weapon system is really controversial. But this does not interfere with testing with various weapons options and choosing the best option. In my opinion, the car is useful and will also sell well.
      1. +1
        21 February 2015 16: 42
        Quote: chunga-changa
        Yes, the very idea of ​​such a machine is very sound


        http://topwar.ru/39776-koncepciya-karagach.html

        Actually, the process is going on ...
        1. +3
          22 February 2015 02: 21
          The article is valid, but slightly outdated. There are places about the grenade launcher on the BMPT, and it has already been removed in the extreme second version, and the pictures of the first version of the BMPT, and there is already a second one.
      2. +4
        21 February 2015 22: 26
        Quote: chunga-changa
        the very idea of ​​such a machine is very robust, and the chosen weapon system is really controversial.

        Probably it is.
        The name of the BMPT lacks one letter: the letters O. This BMOPT machine is precisely fire support.
        What kind of fire support do tanks need in combined arms combat?
        And is it possible to place the entire range of weapons needed for such support on one machine?
        It is unlikely!
        After all, air defense means, howitzer artillery, mortar, AGS, and possibly a powerful anti-tank missile system with the possibility of firing at combat helicopters are needed. But 2A42 guns are abundant on the BMP.
        Those. all the talk about the universal BIPT is a chimera; it itself is not a completely understandable initiative of the plant, carried out without TK from the military.
        Most likely, therefore, such a machine is not accepted into service - it simply is not needed.
        But what is needed?
        In my personal opinion, we need highly protected (on the MBT chassis), capable of operating next to the ZRAK tanks (sort of Armor on the Armata chassis), an assault gun of the Nona type, but with a caliber of 152 mm and an automatic mortar, such as Cornflower.
        That is, not one car, but at least two, to solve their problems.
      3. +3
        22 February 2015 08: 31
        The idea is sound, but from my amateur point of view, not brought to mind, the terminator, in the form in which it exists, is not intended to defeat all types of POC, and therefore cannot effectively perform the tasks for which it was created. At the same time, it is clear that one machine simply cannot effectively target all types of POCs. The solution to the problem can be found in creating various modules for the terminator. Thus, if there is a threat that the enemy will use an SUV, a module with weapons designed to combat attack helicopters, etc. is installed on the terminator. In addition, in my opinion, a very important question that was posed in the article, but which the designers of the current version of the terminator do not give an answer to, is the problem of early detection of targets, in particular the SUV and their timely destruction, because it is precisely because of this that "tank the train "was not effective. It is not clear what is the advantage of the current terminator, in the form in which it exists over tanks in these matters, and if there is no such advantage, then what is the meaning of BMPT. From my point of view, solving the problem of timely detection of POC is a separate complex task, for the solution of which it is necessary to develop and implement a number of new systems. First of all, in order to fight against SUV, BMPT should be equipped with unmanned aerial vehicles, preferably made in the size of an air defense system container, with which an BMPT module designed to combat attack helicopters should be armed. This UAV should be launched from a standard SAM container and should be equipped with a radar to detect VTS, if this is not technically possible now, then the BMPT unit should have a separate unit armed with larger drones equipped with radars, which should perform the functions of a radar patrol in the interests of the unit BMPT. All this information should, along with information from the military air defense radar of satellite reconnaissance and other sources, flow online to the command and staff vehicle of the BMPT unit, which should automatically generate orders for the location of the BMPT on the battlefield for the most effective cover of the tank unit and direct separate BMPTs for attack helicopters when detected. All this will make it possible to effectively solve the problems of early detection and timely destruction of attack helicopters. And so for each type of tank hazardous targets or their combinations. Only in this case, we can say that BMPTs will be effective and they need to be adopted. So far, from my point of view, this is a very crude product with a concept of application that has not been fully worked out.
  2. +25
    21 February 2015 07: 31
    The fact is that the effectiveness of BMPT is not confirmed in practice,
    So what's the problem? Sell ​​a dozen cars in Syria, let them break in!
    Regarding the small caliber of BMPT guns - in the battles in the city, against the armed infantry RPG, the rate of fire, which the tanks just lack, is much more important. A line of high-explosive high-explosive 30-mm shells at ALL windows of a suspicious building, which is more effective than a single shot from 120 mm into one window. And the concept of using this machine is in the name - BMPT, i.e. support tanks, not replace them.
    Quote: Gans1234
    AGS extra

    just because they require 2 extra crew members. And by themselves they are not superfluous, the effectiveness of the ACS against infantry is difficult to overestimate. hi
    1. +13
      21 February 2015 07: 47
      I had in mind this - I didn’t write it down - they could make them remotely controlled in a pair with machine guns - and to control 1, 4 crew members with the duplicated ability to control the commander, so that in case of something, fuck a couple. And this solution is not very expensive for price and production.
      And 2 crew member svreh - this is too much
      And the 800 ammunition round in my opinion is not enough for contact urban combat.
      It is clear that in anticipation of the short life of armored vehicles in modern combat, but still, with a rate of 1000 shots. in minutes, on 2 guns - this is 15 minutes of battle and bring down to reload
      In general, these machines are needed - a bunch of T-72 in the storerooms - to start up for re-equipment them in BMPT and BTR-T, in parallel to build up new equipment on the Armata platform in production, and it will be good
      1. +9
        21 February 2015 10: 08
        Quote: Gans1234

        And 2 crew member svreh - this is too much

        Two crew members are not only the management of AGSs, these are two pairs of eyes that monitor the situation around the machine in time to detect grenade throwers and other hazards for the car. In urban combat, this is not an extra two pairs of eyes.
        1. +4
          21 February 2015 15: 25
          Quote: Egorchik
          In the conditions of urban battle, this is not an extra two pairs of eyes.
          In addition, they can further control and duplicate various weapons options, because the BMPT will certainly be improved further. If during the creation of the BMP-1 in the USSR, the idea of ​​an infantry fighting vehicle assumed the battle of infantrymen "from under the armor", through loopholes, but in reality it turned out to be ineffective and risky for the unwilling landing force, then it was the BMPT that embodied this concept to its logical conclusion. Instead of a detachment of paratroopers, firing through the loopholes, operators specially trained for battle "from under the armor" appeared, with more powerful and effective weapons, and the combat vehicle itself, in terms of efficiency, replaced the order of a platoon of infantrymen, and surpassed the tank in its protection. In this sense, the BMPT has become a real infantry fighting vehicle, and classic BMPs, like our BMP-1,2,3 and their airborne counterparts (BMD), are universal combat vehicles. Speaking about the "high cost" of BMPT, one should not forget that during its production it is possible to use significant stocks of old tanks. BMPT, together with BMP and armored personnel carriers, are not antagonists to each other, but complementary combat vehicles designed to strengthen the power of our infantry and help our tanks.
    2. +3
      21 February 2015 09: 24
      The car is necessary and good, but Hans is right, and the ammunition is not enough, and the firepower is not too .... through which all the windows are)))? Imagine a 14-story multi-entrance building))) ....
      1. avt
        +8
        21 February 2015 10: 58
        Quote: igorka357
        The car is necessary and good, but Hans is right, and the ammunition is not enough, and the firepower is not too .... through which all the windows are)))? Imagine a 14-story multi-entrance building))) ....

        Bast on firewood, start over wassat Already the vtyuhivateli themselves of this miracle, gritting their teeth, declare that the crew is large - we will reduce it, the selection of weapons is also not very good - we will remake it to order. Well, why, to test "it is proposed? Well, why and why is this article? Advertising of a beloved, but absolutely stupid and stillborn unit! The main thing is to muddle up the pseudo-scientific slogan" The concept of building a combat vehicle for supporting tanks ". Concept and machine" in the USSR was developed, put into a series and evolved during use in battles! This is an infantry fighting vehicle from a penny to a three-ruble note with "Bakhchi" and why should the city be fenced off looking for good from good! Nothing good will happen! Well, there were studies in Chelyabinsk, "triplets" on chassis 72, so it is necessary to make an infantry fighting vehicle, a vehicle based on a tank and a lighter one, floating with a SINGLE, UNIFIED module of the "Bakhchi" type, but at least the same "Bakhchu" to modernize And not to sniff bullshit built on the principle of "I blinded him from what was" and make him love and admire.
        1. +8
          21 February 2015 13: 53
          You probably haven't read the article from the word at all :)? It is there that the analysis of what BMPT is needed, and not at all praise the not very successful "Terminator"
          1. avt
            +3
            21 February 2015 15: 55
            Quote: CTABEP
            You probably haven't read the article from the word at all :)? It is there that the analysis of what BMPT is needed, and not at all praise the not very successful "Terminator"
            The bottom line of the article ------- ,, - the loss of tanks in all types of combat and infantry fighting vehicles supporting tanks will decrease; "---- justification of the BMPT as a class. I said and say
            Quote: avt
            . ,, Concept and machine "in the USSR was developed, put into series and evolved in the course of use in battles! This is an infantry fighting vehicle from a penny to a three-ruble note with ,, Bakhchi" and why the gorodnyu to fence then, looking for good from good! ?? Nothing good will happen! Well, there were studies in Chelyabinsk, "triplets" on chassis 72, so it is necessary to make an infantry fighting vehicle, a vehicle based on a tank and a lighter one, floating with a SINGLE, UNIFIED module of the "Bakhchi" type, but at least the same "Bakhchu" to modernize And not to sniff bullshit built on the principle of "I blinded him from what was" and make him love and admire.

            And the notorious "Terminator" is just a particular and never discussed it, as a combat vehicle, and even more so as a class - not interesting.
            1. +4
              21 February 2015 16: 10
              The bottom line is a universal gun plus a 30-mm gun.

              If you do not pay attention to the game about "82 mm", which they are going to hit tanks from above, we get what? That's right, this is:
              1. +4
                21 February 2015 18: 25
                Quote: Spade
                If you do not pay attention to the game about "82 mm", which they are going to hit tanks from above, we get what? That's right, this is:


                Wonder Yudo fish whale. laughing Too weak AEDs, too long a barrel of 125 mm guns, a 30 mm gun has a weak high-explosive fragmentation, and what is most likely no ammo capacity. AGS? Then why a 30 mm gun? Maybe then better than 14,5 mm, at least there will be more BK.
                1. +2
                  21 February 2015 20: 12
                  Quote: IS-80
                  too long barrel 125 mm guns

                  The artillery ballistic station above the barrel clearly indicates that it is not a tank gun. A versatile tool. The same as used in "Vienna" and "Host", 120 (122) -mm 2A80

                  Besides Motovilikha does it have anything to do with tank guns?
                  1. +2
                    22 February 2015 09: 54
                    Quote: Spade
                    The artillery ballistic station above the barrel clearly indicates that it is not a tank gun. A versatile tool. The same as used in "Vienna" and "Host", 120 (122) -mm 2A80

                    Yes, I remembered reading about this project. Yes, there is a 2A80 cannon. And still I don't like this car. This is not a BMPT, but the same self-propelled gun "Vienna" on a tracked chassis.
        2. 0
          21 February 2015 23: 08
          Quote: avt
          This is an infantry fighting vehicle from a penny to a three-ruble note with "Bakhchi" and why should the city be fenced off, looking for good from the good! ?? Nothing good will happen! Well, there were studies in Chelyabinsk of a "troika" on chassis 72, so we need to make an BMP, a vehicle based on a tank and a lighter one, floating with a SINGLE, UNIFIED module of the "Bakhchi" type, but at least the same "Bakhchu" to modernize. And not to sniff bullshit built on the principle of "I blinded him from what was" and make him love and admire.

          !!!!!!! HERE !!!! And then "wunderwaffe" !!!! And when parsing some questions:
          - how so much equipment, weapons, ammunition, and a giant crew were crammed into a small compartment?
          - How will this multi-laden monster act in battle? (we recall the experience of using a 5-tower T-35 and a more or less effective 3-tower T-28)
          - How can this replace infantry support in a forest or city?
          Tank fire fighting support vehicle is a modern infantry fighting vehicle. She will deliver infantry and help with fire.

          And for the terminator fans, there’s another question: the most effective way to evaluate any BBM is its market demand. BMPT actively tried to foist EVERYBODY and bought only a few machines one or two operators.
    3. +1
      21 February 2015 17: 21
      Well, or Egypt. It's hot there too
    4. Jet
      0
      21 February 2015 22: 13
      Do you think they are not buying just because the Russian Federation does not sell them? I wonder then, for what reason they are not in service with Russia itself?
  3. The Art of War
    +7
    21 February 2015 07: 50
    BMPT Terminator
  4. +6
    21 February 2015 08: 48
    Author Colonel Reserve M.I. ZERNOV, Doctor of Military Sciences, Colonel Reserve V.I. SAK-SAKOVSKY, Doctor of Military Sciences,
    - Honestly, it’s even inconvenient to argue with such authors, but nevertheless, we’ll try ...

    The need to provide support for tanks on the battlefield is obvious.
    - I’m sincere in my simplicity, I always believed that tanks should support infantry, minimizing its losses and providing the best conditions for rifle units to enter the battle.

    The development of BMPT is an attempt to systematically solve the problem of reducing tank losses, which requires its logical conclusion.
    - This is an attempt to lift the barrel of a tank gun at a more or less decent angle (well, such a need emerged in the mountains of Afghanistan. BMPs lacked armor, and tanks had a gun elevation angle. So they decided to fix the matter. Remake the tank tower at a more solid angle elevations - the whole thing is with R&D and other R&D, but putting a cannon from an infantry fighting vehicle into it is easier — they did)

    It is known that only a system can successfully act against a system.
    That's for sure .... And without gaining dominance in the air, even if local, there is nothing to deploy significant tank and not only units there .... It is very harmful to the health of tankmen .. and other motorized infantry ...

    Much has been written about the losses of tanks from SUV attacks, and it would seem that conclusions were drawn.
    Basically, something theoretically ..... But yes, God bless him ....

    Another thing BMPT: "taking" the air and ground TOC, they would greatly facilitate the battle of tankers with enemy tanks. It is believed that the presence of BMPT in combat formations will to some extent solve these problems.
    - This is how BMPT will be able to take on short-range air defense without a survey radar (and this thing is fragile and must be placed behind armor), an automatic fire control system (after all, the author himself says that SUVs are very complex goals) I can’t imagine ???? ???
    1. +4
      21 February 2015 09: 27
      Quote: tchoni
      - I’m sincere in my simplicity, I always believed that tanks should support infantry, minimizing its losses and providing the best conditions for rifle units to enter the battle.

      As far as I understand - in the field yes - tanks are infantry support, but in the city there is an ass for tanks, and without infantry tanks an ass too
      And do not forget about the breakthroughs of tank groups - when there are few infantry in the order of the advancing, and someone needs to cover the tanks - a summer-autumn breakthrough to Mariupol to help - when, due to lack of infantry, they could not develop the offensive, and there were not a few losses in armored vehicles - as a result, we barely managed to gain a foothold, but we could take Mariupol then, there were few soldiers
      1. padonok.71
        +4
        21 February 2015 13: 53
        But not such a thing ... and infantry in a city without tanks. Fucking of course, but not straight here, well..a! Much better than the infantry in the city would be with self-propelled guns (no need to spit poison, I'm not talking about Msta-shaped), but about self-propelled guns with large elevation angles, thick-armored, albeit it will be slow and with small bq. All you need is a powerful gun, even if with direct ballistics, the canopy still doesn’t shoot too much, good security, even due to mobility and wide angles.
        Confusedly stated something, but I hope it is clear.
        1. +2
          21 February 2015 14: 29
          I agree with that. Especially with a powerful cannon, capable of folding the whole entrance ...
        2. +3
          22 February 2015 12: 58
          "You only need a powerful weapon, even if with direct ballistics,
          you won't shoot too much with a canopy anyway "////

          The city has only a canopy and shoot. Even a powerful cannon house is not
          knock over. Yes, no. Piles of ruins only strengthen the defense
          enemy infantry.
          We must carefully throw the shell through the house. And this is a mortar.
          Therefore, the city needs a "mortar tank".
          Imagine, like, "Nona" on the basis of T-72 with reinforced side and upper
          armor ...
      2. +3
        21 February 2015 14: 27
        1) All that really prevents the tank from successfully operating in the city is: a) a small angle of elevation of the gun; b) stupid command; c) lack of support and support from the infantry.
        point a) is closed by increasing the vertical angle of the gun’s aiming, or by introducing the appropriate additional device into the tank’s armament complex (for example, AMX32 with its 20 mm gun with independent vertical guidance to 45 degrees, a merkava with its 60 mm mortar.) Point b), to unfortunately, technical means cannot be eliminated, therefore we apply organizational ... Point c) is ensured by the introduction of infantry at the battalion-company level, or even a platoon on TBTR, adapted for
        Quote: Gans1234
        As far as I understand - in the field yes - tanks are infantry support, but in the city there is an ass for tanks, and without infantry tanks an ass too
        action in conjunction with tanks. with appropriate security and mobility.
        Not a single BMPT in the city will be able to take on the role of infantry to the end since it will not be able to climb basements and other communications while smoking enemy infantry out of crevices, ruins and burrows.
        Quote: Gans1234
        And do not forget about the breakthroughs of tank groups - when there are few infantry in the order of the advancing, and someone needs to cover the tanks - a summer-autumn breakthrough to Mariupol to help - when, due to lack of infantry, they could not develop the offensive
        That's why, even the old Guderian said - the infantry must follow with the tanks, if we do not want to slow down the tank - we must speed up the infantryman .... But I can also add - it must also be defended accordingly, so that it does not lag behind.
  5. +3
    21 February 2015 08: 48
    Do not provide reliable destruction of such targets and automatic grenade launchers due to the weak power of the grenade and low accuracy at short distances. As a matter of fact, the BMPT course grenades are not intended for this: the angle of elevation is not designed for shooting indirect fire. Not much benefit from them will be when shooting in the winter with deep snow cover. To defeat such targets, it is necessary that the BMPT weapon set contains a weapon that can fire not only direct, half-direct, but also indirect fire, that is, combining the qualities of a cannon and mortar (it’s not by chance that Israelis install 60 mm mortars on their towers "Merkav").
    - here is the pearl ..... especially about ACS not designed for indirect fire .... (grenade speed 300 m / s - i.e. after 300 m it is 10 meters below the aiming point even in theory)

    However, due to the shortsightedness of the leadership of the Main Military Technical Directorate, the project of A. Porokhovshchikov did not receive support.
    And they did it right ... because a tank with one caterpillar is just cool ....


    Well, as an allaverdi .... Maybe all the same, you should not mix everything in one ... Let each department solve its problem. Air Force - Air Defense provides. Infantry - covers tanks. Tanks - infantry support. Artillery - provides massive indirect fire suppression. And the headquarters - let them really tax it. and not wondering at the wunderwafl ..... Although the elevation angle of the tank gun, as practice shows, it’s worth increasing the angle ..... hi
    1. +2
      21 February 2015 13: 54
      Quote: tchoni
      Air Force - Air Defense provides. Infantry - covers tanks. Tanks - infantry support. Artillery - provides massive indirect fire suppression

      and BMP-T, covers infantry with swearing and fire ((although about this pipelats_ BMPT, already how many copies on the VO are broken lol ))))
      you need a heavy BMP with a DBM ((which caliber of the gun should be the main one ??? can be said only after direct combat use ((((many have already postured in Syria, or New Russia)))
      I like the idea of ​​installing a spark with a memory-23-2 + 40 mm AGS and 12,7 mm machine gun ...
      I hope for GS Armata there will be a similar option ...
      Quote: tchoni
      . Artillery - provides massive indirect fire suppression

      and direct as well ... lower assault gun with 152 mm gun and tank armor ..
      An example of the Second World War with the ISU 152, which proved to be excellent during the assault on the fortified Germans ...

      why, after the 45 year, did not receive their further development ???
      1. The Art of War
        +1
        21 February 2015 14: 04
        Hi Andrew, smile You’re hinting at BMPT; I like the idea of ​​installing a spark with a ZU-23-2 +40 mm AGS and a 12,7 mm machine gun ... BMPT spark more powerful than 23 and 30 mm AGS can be set to 40 mm instead of 30 mm instead of 7,62, 12,7mm put XNUMXmm cord
        1. +2
          21 February 2015 14: 27
          Alexander hi
          first of all you need a main train with aft entry-exit ... and a modern, armored DBM ((we don’t have this yet, there are only single copies)))
          Quote: The Art of War
          30mm AGS can and 40 mm be put instead of 30mm can be installed instead of 7,62 mm put 12,7mm Cord

          or the 57 mm s-60 cannon, which has already been upgraded at Burevestnik ...
          Andrey posted that BMP-3 with BM "Troichatka" showed themselves excellently in Chechnya ... combat use is needed ... or the installation of different-caliber BM, as an option ...
          1. The Art of War
            +1
            21 February 2015 14: 57
            Generally my opinion feel BMPs and armored personnel carriers must be armored from at least 12,7mm rounds plus trellis screens
            1. +1
              21 February 2015 15: 04
              See prospective reservations of Western models, and even not the latest ones - reservations already put at least 14,5 and 30 mm ... in the forehead and side projections.
              1. +1
                21 February 2015 23: 28
                Quote: vladkavkaz
                already set a minimum of 14,5 and 30 mm .. in the forehead and side projections.

                In addition, mount additional armor. And the armament of the newest and most successful models is based on the assumption that the BMP is a light tank with an infantry squad (caliber of 30, or even 50 mm). And our BMP-3 has frontal armor that can withstand a hit of 30 mm guns.
      2. +1
        21 February 2015 14: 35
        All is correct. Only for TBMP I would shift the focus from infantry support to its transportation .. And from the armament I would leave Spark 12.7 and the AGS in the DBM so that I would not occupy a place in the cabin.
        And the tank added the elevation angle of the gun.
        And as for the 152 mm self-propelled guns - can it simply introduce a projectile into the bk 125 mm guns with less trajectory persistence, but with more solid high-explosive action?
        1. +1
          21 February 2015 15: 18
          tchoni
          BMPT and TBMP, slightly different mines are obtained.
          And it begs itself that this equipment, T90 tanks for platoon, 1 unit of BMPT, company for TBMP 11 units, STATES need to be changed, it turns out HEAVY, brigade, regiment, battalion, it doesn’t matter.
          If the brigade is average, as thought-Tank T72, BPM-2,3 of the OP vehicle, based on the same infantry fighting vehicles, but with the function of enhancing fire support, it’s worth remembering, for example, SPRUT, about the mobile base for mortars, with caliber from 82 to 120.
          Well, light ones, here most likely the functions of the tanks are not visible at all, according to the tasks of the light units, but as for weapons and fire reinforcement, everything in my opinion is not clear ...
          An analogue of the German navigator, as a means of reinforcing infantry, but even on a chassis of 55,62, it would be quite a poly ...
        2. +4
          21 February 2015 15: 31
          Quote: tchoni
          And as for the 152 mm self-propelled guns - can it simply introduce a projectile into the bk 125 mm guns with less trajectory persistence, but with more solid high-explosive action?

          YES, the Israelis are going exactly this way ... improving the ammunition 120 mm, to the Merkava Mk-III.IV gun ...
          according to TTX which is on the day, not MBT, namely the STORM TANK !!!
          in close cooperation with the infantry, which in turn is covered by BTR-T ....

          BTR "Namer" during Operation Cast Lead

          info from: http: //www.yaplakal.com/forum3/st/200/topic862043.html
          1. 0
            22 February 2015 11: 54
            cosmos111
            THIS IS BETTER !!)))
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsAePLKmBfY#t=42
        3. +1
          21 February 2015 23: 34
          Quote: tchoni
          All is correct. Only for TBMP I would shift the focus from infantry support to its transportation .. And from the armament I would leave Spark 12.7 and the AGS in the DBM so that I would not occupy a place in the cabin.

          Then this is BTR-T. But practice shows that BMPs and armored personnel carriers should be able to support wards with fire. After the Caucasus, all of our armored personnel carriers began to rearm to the level of BTR-82A, i.e. with a 30 mm gun.
          For the T-BMP, the variant with the DBM (30-50 mm + 12,7 mm + ATGM) is most preferable or it is easier to install Bahchu immediately, but it is still necessary to. active defense complex.

          Quote: tchoni
          can simply introduce a projectile into the bk 125 mm gun with less trajectory persistence, but with a more solid high-explosive action

          It’s easier to use BBM. Tanks must be covered, and they themselves must be able to constantly maneuver, avoiding shelling, find targets and hit them.
        4. 0
          30 November 2017 06: 10
          Quote: tchoni
          And as for the 152 mm self-propelled guns - can it simply introduce a projectile into the bk 125 mm guns with less trajectory persistence, but with more solid high-explosive action?

          it is more profitable to make a thermobaric active-reactive projectile released from the barrel, it will have more impact.
    2. +1
      21 February 2015 15: 32
      Quote: tchoni
      here pearl ..... especially about the ACS not designed for indirect fire.

      Most likely we are talking about the available elevation angles of course AG
      1. +1
        21 February 2015 16: 00
        Yes, I understand that the author means the impossibility of defeating the reverse slopes of the heights and all that. But, it is said and formulated so that the AGS is almost equated with a 30 mm cannon ... This somewhat distorted.
        1. +2
          21 February 2015 16: 15
          AGS "on mortar" beats perfectly. These are not only reverse slopes, they are also trenches.

          Just unsuccessfully put it.
  6. The Art of War
    +3
    21 February 2015 09: 00
    request Why didn’t AGS be installed on BMPT-2 as on the first BMPT am
    1. +3
      21 February 2015 09: 27
      to make it more attractive and cheaper for purchasers in the Russian Federation and over the hill - 3 crew members are not 5 - eat less, training is cheaper, salary, maintenance is shorter .....
  7. +3
    21 February 2015 09: 25
    A tank support combat vehicle was developed and first introduced at arms exhibitions more than ten years ago.

    The logical question is, why are there no such vehicles in the troops since they are so "necessary"?
    1. wanderer_032
      0
      21 February 2015 09: 56
      Quote: professor
      The logical question is, why are there no such vehicles in the troops since they are so "necessary"?


      Are you sure about that? wink
      1. -6
        21 February 2015 10: 13
        Quote: wanderer_032
        Are you sure about that?

        In God we trust, all others must bring data.
        1. wanderer_032
          +3
          21 February 2015 11: 31
          Quote: professor
          In God we trust, all others must bring data.


          Yeah, can it still give the key to the apartment where the money is? laughing
        2. +4
          21 February 2015 12: 50
          Quote: professor
          In God we trust, all others must bring data.

          Professor, again you are in your repertoire ...
          A Jew should not know that this phrase "We believe in God, the rest are required to have data", this is how, in quotation marks, stands at the very beginning of the game for children, aimed at teaching them the financial management of a business ...

          Benefit and the Jews are always there ...
        3. +1
          21 February 2015 20: 17
          we don’t have it in Kazakhstan and it is in service, just as Azerbaijan wants to buy if it has not already bought. And we understand that they are waiting for a new platform and on the basis of it they will buy this unit.
    2. avt
      +1
      21 February 2015 11: 04
      Quote: professor
      The logical question is, why are there no such vehicles in the troops since they are so "necessary"?

      And also the name - "Terminator"! It's not good! You need to touch the roots of the understanding, to the sources. I now propose to take the name from the very depth of natural depth, from where everything will become clear about the super need for this weapon, you must name it in the spirit of the army names of the times of the USSR, well, when they called them flowers, characters from fairy tales, Buratina, and let it be from an anecdote - Elusive Joe. wassat Professor, did you get the answer to your question? One thing pleases - here the professor doesn’t get away - there are no analogues!laughing
      1. -5
        21 February 2015 12: 06
        Quote: avt
        One thing pleases - here the professor doesn’t get away - there are no analogues!

        With this it’s simpler, an armored vehicle based on the tank to support both the infantry and the tanks themselves. Armed with barrel artillery and missiles. Tested in battle. wink

        Show a photo or guess yourself? laughing
        1. 0
          21 February 2015 12: 26
          Reservation with BMPT is weak, four anti-tank missiles will not be enough for urban combat.
          1. +1
            21 February 2015 23: 36
            Quote: Vadim237
            Reservation with BMPT is weak, four anti-tank missiles will not be enough for urban combat.

            Why is there a car in the city that must fight infantry and light armored infantry fighting vehicles, anti-tank systems?
            1. +1
              22 February 2015 11: 29
              Because in addition to light armored vehicles, a heavy one may suddenly appear in the city.
    3. +1
      21 February 2015 12: 59
      Quote: professor
      The logical question is, why are there no such vehicles in the troops since they are so "necessary"?

      So our "military minds" in no way can "find her a worthy place." I adhere to the idea that this BM is a development of the concept of an "assault weapon" and, accordingly, should be applied in this way ...
    4. 0
      21 February 2015 15: 32
      Because there is no car yet
      1. +1
        21 February 2015 16: 35
        Quote: Spade
        Because there is no car yet

        Why? And then what goes into service with the army of Kazakhstan?
        1. 0
          21 February 2015 16: 41
          What satisfies the army of Kazakhstan.
      2. -1
        21 February 2015 16: 37
        Quote: Spade
        Because there is no car yet

        Seriously CEP? And I thought that there were hundreds of them in storage, but they didn’t enter the troops. wassat
        1. +2
          21 February 2015 16: 43
          Seriously. All these "Terminators" are banal for the Russian military.

          Because there is no car, and so far we are only talking about concepts.
  8. +2
    21 February 2015 09: 30
    - I’m sincere in my simplicity, I always believed that tanks should support infantry, minimizing its losses and providing the best conditions for rifle units to enter the battle.
    Tanks must support infantry on the plain, infantry must cover tanks in the city. The battlefield is different, the battle itself is different! So it’s better not to polemicize)) !!
  9. wanderer_032
    +2
    21 February 2015 09: 44
    To expand the capabilities of using BMPT full-time weapons for air targets, it is possible to install a compact radar with performance characteristics acceptable for hitting such targets at the working heights of aircraft and front-line helicopters (attack aircraft, attack helicopters).
    In addition, the capabilities of the radar can be used to fire at ground targets in conditions of poor visibility.
    This decision would allow replacing a bunch of unnecessary equipment in the "tank train" (short-range air defense systems such as "Strela-10" for example).

    Instead of using AGS, use equipment to remotely detonate OFSs, standard 2A42 guns (there are many opinions that the power of a 30-mm OFS is not enough, but this is a moot point), such equipment is already available (BTR-82A (80A)) and is produced in series .
    Removing AGSy from the fenders and reducing the crew to 3 people, it would be possible to place additional BC.
    You can also consider the option to leave the AGSy, but transfer their control to the commander and gunner-operator’s consoles (so that, if necessary, one of them could take control of the AGSov’s fire, or give the OMS the ability to fire in automatic mode) .
    With this option, the installation of the AGS can be performed as an additional attachment (removable) equipment, as it is done in aviation. Those. if necessary to perform a specific combat mission, then install, if not necessary.
    By the way, this principle of approach to manning the machine with necessary weapons can be done for other weapons systems that are installed on the BMPT.
    Of course, this will require the creation of a new type of DBM (and indeed, in a practically new way, reconsider the ways of deploying weapons on the BMPT), but it will be worth it.
    1. +4
      21 February 2015 15: 11
      wanderer_032
      Hi colleague!
      This is the time they argue, break their spears, yell proving some need, the second uselessness, but in reality, they don’t even break it in any way, so forget at least that experience of urban battles, starting with the Great Patriotic .. What tank showed itself in urban conditions in that war are acceptable, in the LIGHT city, with a high elevation angle of the gun, in conjunction with the T34 and KV, plus infantry, success was ensured, in the end, the FIRM’s combat reception, for BM in the city, why was it invented?
      But the tank doesn’t need an infantry cover, so it goes by itself, say with regard to battles in urban conditions, airborne infantry, standard infantry equipment, a tank and BMPT, not to mention sappers and flamethrowers.
      1. wanderer_032
        +1
        21 February 2015 17: 35
        Quote: vladkavkaz
        wanderer_032
        Hi colleague!


        Mutually. Same to you hi
      2. 0
        30 November 2017 07: 38
        Quote: vladkavkaz
        in the end, the fighting technique of the FIRM, for BM in the city, why was it invented?

        but what kind of "Christmas tree" can you give more details? well, or click where to read ..
  10. +1
    21 February 2015 10: 10
    That is why RosOboronExport will not sell this BMPT to Syria, let it be tested there in real combat conditions, and not shown at gun salons.
    1. 0
      21 February 2015 13: 09
      For Syria, too expensive a car, and the saturation of ATGM militant groups, can lead to the rapid loss of these vehicles.
      1. wanderer_032
        0
        21 February 2015 13: 19
        Quote: Vadim237
        For Syria, too expensive a car, and the saturation of ATGM militant groups, can lead to the rapid loss of these vehicles.


        Rather, the lack of training of crews. This is not an old 72.
        Of the entire crew, only mech.voda does not need to be retrained.
        1. +1
          21 February 2015 16: 03
          And not training either, but the losses from the application will still be at least trained at least not trained. Syrian fighters for firing and using ATGMs are already pros and the ATGMs themselves are clearly not outdated, with tandem combat units.
  11. +1
    21 February 2015 10: 19
    Perhaps it makes sense to introduce a BMW into the staff of internal troops for fire support, especially in battles in urban areas. You can consider installing instead of ATGM rocket-propelled flamethrowers of the type of bumblebee or larger, pieces of 6 on each side, in urban combat conditions is very useful.
    1. wanderer_032
      +3
      21 February 2015 11: 32
      Quote: cobalt
      You can consider installing instead of ATGM rocket-propelled flamethrowers of the type of bumblebee or larger, pieces of 6 on each side, in urban combat conditions is very useful.


      The BMPT missile armament already includes missiles with a thermobaric warhead.
  12. +1
    21 February 2015 11: 34
    So much time has passed since the appearance of this BMPT, and so no one has been able to clearly formulate why it is still needed. In the BMPT, I see a defective tank or an overloaded BMP, but no infantry. Adding it to the existing structure "tank \ BMP \ infantry" is to inflate the staff, the number of equipment, service personnel.
    1. The Art of War
      +3
      21 February 2015 11: 47
      As long as it reaches our head that the BMPT is needed, we will line up, and while Kazakhstan is buying, Azerbaijan is negotiating and Iraq is watching, ours are going to see the BMPT no longer on the T-90 or T-72 platform, but already on the Armata platform
    2. wanderer_032
      0
      21 February 2015 12: 56
      Quote: The Cat
      So much time has already passed since the advent of this BMPT, and so no one could clearly articulate why it is still needed.


      Because in GABTU they are blunt and do not move.
      Such a universal fire support vehicle for mechanized formations is needed, but with more advanced combat capabilities.
      If it is able to fully operate both for air and ground targets, it will be able to replace a whole fleet of outdated equipment (short-range air defense systems of the Strela-10 type, for example) and supplement the fire capabilities of mechanized units as a means of reinforcement given for carrying out assault operations in population centers and military operations as part of mechanized units in the operational space (cover from enemy front-line aviation, defeat tank-hazardous manpower), i.e. for its intended purpose.
      This is obvious to everyone, except those who are at the helm in the GABTU.
      1. +1
        21 February 2015 14: 37
        GABTU steering wheel is still Shurok Shevchenko?
        Well, this narulit .. as everything fell from the ZKV regiment, it continues ... When they think about pennies, kickbacks and their wallet, there is no time to think about troops.
  13. +1
    21 February 2015 11: 37
    It seems to me that the origins of the BMPT appeared in WWII, when the Fritz were forced to let in infantry ahead of valuable tanks, although at the beginning of the war it was the other way around. And today, the role of that infantry should be played by the BMPT - a cheaper facility than the main tank. Moreover, the cool-looking MBT should go in the second echelon, but no further than 50 m from the front, covering with its defensive systems a specific pair of ahead BMPTs (checkerboard order for two BMPTs and one MBT). A simple spark is also possible: in front - one BMPT and one MBT. BMPT objective: to create the required density of fire at a certain extent of enemy fortifications, to prevent the use of tank hazardous means at close range (up to 3 km). The tank itself must suppress the TOC at a longer distance: up to 6 km.
  14. 0
    21 February 2015 11: 54
    My opinion is why reinvent the bicycle. Stick some kind of sea "Dagger" on the base of the tank and the BMPT is ready. Well, of course, cover the combat module with armor (like a cover). Two people in the crew: a mechanic and a loader-gunner from a course machine gun.
    1. +1
      21 February 2015 12: 40
      This version of the BMPT is more interesting in armament and defense.
  15. +1
    21 February 2015 12: 09
    A lot has been written about the losses of tanks from SUV attacks (special attack helicopter), and it would seem that conclusions were drawn.

    Tell me, in the context of this statement, why does a tank need an anti-aircraft machine gun. As it turns out, it will not protect the tank from helicopters. So why is it installed? Out of habit? With the thought: "Our grandfathers did this"?
    1. wanderer_032
      +1
      21 February 2015 13: 01
      Quote: GOgaRu
      why is the tank anti-aircraft machine gun


      Such a machine gun is needed, but with a remote control and a normal panoramic commander’s device. It is advisable to stabilize so that you can accurately fire on the go. And so that the tank tank would not be an excellent target for enemy snipers and stray bullets and fragments.
      1. The Art of War
        +2
        21 February 2015 13: 17
        Would that fit?
        1. wanderer_032
          +1
          21 February 2015 13: 20
          Quote: The Art of War
          Would that fit?


          Quite. Only for installation in a tank adapted of course.
  16. +4
    21 February 2015 12: 20
    Why argue, need-not need, justify, not justify. We deliver two or three pieces to Syria and monitor the combat operation, make a wide-profile analysis of all systems and conclude that if it performs well in combat conditions, then it means smart advertising, if it’s bad, it needs to be finalized, etc.
  17. +1
    21 February 2015 12: 30
    Topic article:
    http://topwar.ru/28206-tunguska-m-i-ee-morskoy-analog-kortik.html
  18. +3
    21 February 2015 12: 38
    As I understand it, someone came up with an idea and they made a car for it from what it was ...
    In fact, the idea is very promising, it only requires a well-formulated terms of reference for targeted use and a specific design study of both the complex as a whole and the means of destruction.
    For example, the same AGS was created as a relatively light tool that can be carried by calculation (hence the corresponding restrictions). For BMPT, it is possible (and necessary) to develop a special installation that is similar in a number of characteristics to the AGSu, but with a large (again, exact justification is required - how large) caliber.
    Also, why not equip the BMPT UAV? smile It is possible even on an armored cable (~ 500m), powered by a BMPT electric generator. When using high-frequency current, the cable will turn out thin and light. And the UAV should be equipped with a complex of reconnaissance aids - radars for detecting helicopters and firearms on the battlefield, a laser target designator, it can be a television camera and audiometry. With such an UAV, IMHO, a large-ballistic low-ballistic weapon would be well combined, capable of launching universal (anti-helicopter and anti-tank) missiles along a hinged path. By the way, a similar UAV would be useful for the BRDM ...
    1. wanderer_032
      +1
      21 February 2015 13: 09
      Quote: whowhy
      By the way, a similar UAV would be useful for the BRDM ...


      Something similar has already been created by ZAO "Zashchita" for BA "Bulat".

    2. The Art of War
      +2
      21 February 2015 13: 30
      You can also put the module from the Shell and generally put hydrogen missiles and a whole bunch of everything that would be like a Cruiser smile laughing
      1. +2
        21 February 2015 14: 39
        Quote: The Art of War
        You can also put the module from the Shell and generally put hydrogen missiles and a whole bunch of everything that would be like a Cruiser

        Yes, hang up too much ... it will increase the cost of products at times ..
        the main and the main task of the BMP-T is the destruction of tank-dangerous targets, infantry and calculations with anti-tank systems ...
        instruments, situational awareness, thermal imagers and cameras around the perimeter of an armored car ...
        клик
  19. +6
    21 February 2015 14: 31
    BMPT is a small caliber protected by TANK armor.
    That's the whole story.
    If anyone doesn’t like her, welcome to BMP-2 or Shilka. (Each equipment has its own theater).
    She NEEDS.
    And for battle in a city with multi-story buildings and one-story buildings. To accompany ribbons on a harp. For a classic battle in the field ...
    The company and the battalion commanders will instantly find it to be used in tactical formations, so be sure.

    I am not a fan of this car, just ... We have nothing of the kind anymore. It is so? So.
    That's when they give birth to normal TBMP, then it will be necessary to argue whether such BMPT is needed, but not earlier.
    10 years old, damn it, we are waving it with a beautiful booklet, and with tanks as they went behi, they are still ... damn.

    As for air defense: you should not push everything that was invented onto one platform, it will not work. As a firearms, INCLUDED in the general system of army air defense - yes, but no more.
    And then on BMPT they offer: leave small things, add a large-caliber assault gun and air defense systems with a radar ...
    A sort of: anti-tank cleaner + assault gun + anti-aircraft weapon ... Urya - the prodigy turned out. There is no such thing.

    There is a concept about this for a long time:
    1. What equipment is needed for troops in direct contact with the enemy? Answered the question.
    2. What types, types and calibers of weapons do they need to solve the tasks? Answered the question.
    3. How many platforms can these calibers be placed on? Answered the question.
    4. Made.
    5. Tested and put in the troops.
    Thus, we got an 3-4 type of machine for actions in direct contact with the enemy, on which ALL the necessary range of weapons are located by types and calibers, and which complement each other, and not ... duplicate. The SYSTEM solves everything, not individual wunderwaffles.
    The fact that in addition to the tank and heavy infantry fighting vehicle is needed and another combat vehicle is quite possible in the current realities of modern multifaceted military theater.
    Who should ask such questions and answer them? GSH, as well as GABTU and GRAU.
    It's just that the stripes get in their way ...
    1. The Art of War
      +2
      21 February 2015 14: 48
      Hi Alexey smile if the BMP-2M Berezhok, some will agree with the protection from the Research Institute of Steel as on the BMP-2M with screens and grids
      1. +3
        21 February 2015 14: 55
        Quote: The Art of War
        Hi Alexey smile if the BMP-2M Berezhok, some will agree with the protection from the Research Institute of Steel as on the BMP-2M with screens and grids

        Good day, Alexander.
        hi
        BMP-2 has its own niche of application, it has its own theater. Just her ... shoved to where she does not belong.
        TBMP, as well as other tank-based combat vehicles, are necessary. These are the demands of modern wars and conflicts.
        1. The Art of War
          +1
          21 February 2015 15: 01
          I agree, but I don’t understand why the BMPT-2 on the T-72 chassis did not put grenades as the first crying
        2. The Art of War
          +1
          21 February 2015 15: 04
          I remember, you and I were still discussing about tank because we need a remote machine gun on a tank
          1. +7
            21 February 2015 15: 22
            Yes, on the roof of the tank is a ZPU. Ie a weapon against flying adversaries, hence the 12,7 caliber.
            Is it effective? Ahem ...
            - Can change weapons to more effective?
            - Or maybe you shouldn't bother and recognize this machine gun not as an air defense rush, but ... as a means of fighting amateurs to carry a "seven" on yourself? Those. to recognize it as a means of SELF-DEFENSE of the tank? Then it is a DUM with at least HV stabilization and automatic recharge. It is even possible to make a 7,62mm caliber. There will be more cartridges.
            For example, I like this option.
            It would be calmer)))
            laughing
        3. +5
          21 February 2015 15: 06
          Alexey hi
          Andrey posted that BMP-3 with BM "Troichatka" showed themselves excellently in Chechnya ... combat use is needed ... or the installation of different-caliber BM, as an option ...

          I'm sorry, Lesh was wrong - you posted it ...

          here, the battles in the industrial zone of Debaltseve, tank + infantry, here WOULD have been BMP-T, then there WOULD be general good !!!
          1. The Art of War
            +1
            21 February 2015 15: 22
            Andrey thanks for the video wink
          2. +2
            21 February 2015 16: 07
            Andrey, thanks for the video, but to be honest, I did not understand how BMPT would help in this situation. The tank crushes the targets located right on the course, and the infantry, do not even turn their heads, apparently calm on the flanks .....
            1. +2
              21 February 2015 16: 22
              Quote: tchoni
              y, and the infantry, do not even turn their heads, apparently calm on the flanks

              in the video on 2.36 min, it’s the BTR-80 just covering the flanks with fire from the KPVT ((masonry, walls, etc.))) the task for the BMP-T + is to cover the infantry from snipers ...
              1. +3
                21 February 2015 17: 02
                Sorry, of course, but he is also hammering along the road ... It feels like the guys are pushing in a given direction and they are either meeting a block or some other pillbox. Hrenachat on it from the tank and the rifle, armored personnel carrier says the same weighty word. Moreover, the horseradish is not particularly furious, but in such a way that on the other side they would have realized their popos and faded quickly. As a result, everyone is happy - the militia saved their ammunition and received trophies without straining - dill - guessed life.
                1. +4
                  21 February 2015 17: 21
                  Quote: tchoni
                  Sorry, of course, but he also hollows along the road.

                  yes you're right ... hurry up ...

                  probably not clearly expressed ...
                  I posted that the BMP-T should destroy the infantry behind the walls of the houses, at 300-500 met ... both on the flanks and along the course ...

                  MBT only for group goals and urp ... district ...

                  MT-LB with memory 23-2, the militia in the assault on Debaltseve ((with cardboard scolding))) here is the job for BMP-T !!!
                  1. +1
                    21 February 2015 18: 47
                    Not quite sure that for these purposes it is necessary to build a new car .... Maybe it’s worth just re-equipping the tank?
                    1. +2
                      21 February 2015 19: 34
                      Quote: tchoni
                      Not quite sure that for these purposes it is necessary to build a new car .... Maybe it’s worth just re-equipping the tank?

                      Tsakhal, sal for the first time in the world to use BTR-T, in conjunction with MBT and engineering armored vehicles, when storming cities, which reduced the losses of both infantry and armored vehicles by several times (((but their experience was based on the experience of the Soviet army in the Second World War and creatively reworked)))
                      but they, too, "blunt" stubbornly refusing to use the BMP-T, only an armored personnel carrier, which has only defensive weapons ...

                      BTR-T "Namer" and MkIII, in urban development, although the "carrot" itself can transport infantry (((which is successfully demonstrated in the photo)))
                      BTR-T, obviously not enough firepower to support the infantry precisely ...


                      1. +1
                        21 February 2015 20: 03
                        Quote: cosmos111
                        BTR-T, obviously not enough firepower to support the infantry ...

                        Maybe they don’t need it, if there are tanks nearby ... And is it worth sacrificing landing places? (see the photo of the Israeli version of the BMPT, cited by our esteemed Professor (Oleg) with the open wings of the landing compartment)
                        But in general - I do not know ...... But in my opinion, trying to cross a bulldog with a rhino and get viable offspring is unlikely ....
                      2. +1
                        21 February 2015 21: 05
                        Quote: tchoni
                        But in general - I do not know ...... But in my opinion, trying to cross a bulldog with a rhino and get viable offspring is unlikely ....

                        this is the BMP, only with the prefix T (heavy) ... with a full landing squad ...
                        without a DBM, this task cannot be completed, the inhabited tower will "eat" up to 45% of the booked volume ...

                        and more interesting photos M-113 waved
                      3. +1
                        21 February 2015 21: 46
                        Quote: cosmos111
                        this is the BMP, only with the prefix T (heavy) ... with a full landing squad ...
                        without a DBM, this task cannot be completed, the inhabited tower will "eat" up to 45% of the booked volume ...

                        Yes, it’s worth agreeing with that. If the machine for the landing - all the weapons outside the landing compartment ...

                        And in the pictures, as I understand the ZPU "Vulkan" adapted to support the infantry?
                      4. 0
                        22 February 2015 11: 53
                        Quote: tchoni
                        ZPU "Vulkan" adapted to support the infantry?

                        Yes "Volcano" good
        4. The Art of War
          +2
          21 February 2015 15: 09
          I am in favor of TBMP, but here it comes down to its weight, and our equipment, especially for the Marine Corps, should swim, and for the Ground Forces too
          1. +2
            21 February 2015 15: 27
            Quote: The Art of War
            I am in favor of TBMP, but here it comes down to its weight, and our equipment, especially for the Marine Corps, should swim, and for the Ground Forces too

            So, each equipment has its own theater.
            I absolutely agree.

            - wheeled
            - floating and jumping harp,
            - heavy harp.

            They cannot replace each other - each species has its own place. And they can’t do without each other.
            Yes
            1. wanderer_032
              +1
              21 February 2015 17: 48
              Quote: Aleks tv
              - heavy harp


              It was on its basis that he proposed to create this complex.
              Because the level of protection, and therefore combat survivability is higher than that of the two previous types of armor.

              To work in our points and cover the main group of tanks in the wild, nothing is better yet.
          2. +1
            21 February 2015 15: 39
            Quote: The Art of War
            I am for TBMP, but here it comes down to its weight, and we have equipment especially for the Marine Corps


            for marines --- I agree seafaring in the first place ... about the BMP, for motorized riflemen, there is a difficult question ....

            it's all about the tactics of using BM and theater data ...

            as a variant of general cargo vehicle, heavy payload, with mounted armor and DZ

            cool photo. what can be done with the M-113, and also on the roof pipe, from the gramophone laughing good
            1. The Art of War
              +1
              21 February 2015 15: 48
              It would be nice if we could make an article about what our TBMP-armament should be, on which chassis the T-72, T-90 or already on the new Armata, everything with the BTR Boomerang is not clear yet
              1. +1
                21 February 2015 16: 09
                BMPT is needed on the new platform, protection again came to the fore — the thickness and strength of the armor, the war in Ukraine clearly showed this.
            2. +1
              21 February 2015 17: 03
              Police car to disperse the demonstrators? Apparently - Israel?
              1. +1
                21 February 2015 17: 36
                Quote: tchoni
                Apparently - israel

                he is the most ... but protection good all operations from the 90's are police ((the enemy does not have heavy weapons)))

                interesting photo M-113 with DUBM ort "Rahael" with 30 mm "Bushmaster"
                клик
                1. +2
                  21 February 2015 17: 40
                  Quote: cosmos111
                  interesting photo M-113 with DUBM ort "Rahael" with 30 mm "Bushmaster"

                  This is the first Samson.


                  Now they are putting another.


                  "interesting photo" in the army:




                  1. -1
                    21 February 2015 18: 07
                    Quote: professor
                    Now they are putting another.

                    good photos good proFF ...
                    Samson 30 Mk2

                    DBM height is lower ...

                    KMW IWS-35 remote-controlled combat module with 35-mm ATK Armament Systems Bushmaster III gun, 12,7-mm machine gun and 40-mm WWS-40 launchers

                    DUBM Claw

                    1. -1
                      21 February 2015 18: 30
                      Quote: cosmos111
                      DBM height is lower ...

                      In the first, the height was adjustable, in the second, loading without leaving the case.

                      Akhzatit with Samson. Why not a "terminator"? wink
                      1. +2
                        21 February 2015 18: 49
                        Quote: professor
                        In the first, the height was adjustable, in the second, loading without leaving the case.

                        I look and reservation added.

                        Quote: professor
                        Ahzatit with Samson.

                        Is this something experimental or is it in service?

                        Quote: professor
                        Why not a "terminator"?


                        The fact that this is not BMPT, but TBMP. smile
                      2. +1
                        21 February 2015 18: 56
                        Quote: IS-80
                        Is this something experimental or is it in service?

                        I have no idea.

                        Quote: IS-80
                        The fact that this is not BMPT, but TBMP.

                        semantics

                        Quote: tchoni
                        ALL the free space of the tower ate the place of the operator and loader.

                        The operator was always there, but there was no loader there.


                      3. +1
                        21 February 2015 20: 09
                        Quote: professor
                        The operator was always there, but there was no loader there.

                        I didn’t see enough ... A thousand apologies. Nevertheless, even the operator in a swivel chair eats up quite a bit of space, and the most unpleasant thing is blocking the passage ...
                      4. +1
                        21 February 2015 20: 26
                        Quote: tchoni
                        . Nevertheless, even an operator in a swivel chair eats up a lot of space, and the most unpleasant thing is blocking the passage ...

                        There is already no such chair. Pay attention to the same photo: the monitor on the left, the chair ... the passage is clear.

                        PS



                      5. +2
                        21 February 2015 20: 43
                        not enough professor will firepower not enough
                  2. +2
                    21 February 2015 18: 51
                    Everything is cool, only the main cimes of the DUBM here in my opinion was lost ..... ALL the free space of the tower ate the place of the operator and loader. And instead of a compact placement with the "victim" of one landing place, we got a tank with a shitty gun .... with a purely hypothetical possibility of transporting troops .... Almost like in our BMD
                2. +2
                  21 February 2015 18: 48
                  You know, maybe they are not so wrong that they put extra armor on police cars. A sense of security contributes to informed decisions. hi
    2. wanderer_032
      +3
      21 February 2015 14: 53
      Hi Alexey. hi

      Quote: Aleks tv
      A sort of: anti-tank cleaner + assault gun + anti-aircraft weapon ... Urya - the prodigy turned out.


      What’s the prodigy right away?

      Why it was possible to create such complexes in aviation (SU-39 attack aircraft, KA-50 (52), MI-28 attack helicopters), in agricultural production, tractors can also work with various attachments, excavators, bulldozers, etc. P.
      But for the ground forces such a complex can not be created and is inappropriate?
      1. wanderer_032
        +2
        21 February 2015 15: 03
        Even in automotive technology, this principle is used. If you recall the system of a multielevator or truck tractors with various semi-trailers.

        There is a tracked chassis. From here we must proceed. And there is no need to reinvent the wheel; everything has been invented for a long time.
        Plus, it will give such a longed-for maximum unification, a la "the dream of a deputy."
      2. +2
        21 February 2015 15: 10
        Quote: wanderer_032
        Hi Alexey. hi

        Quote: Aleks tv
        A sort of: anti-tank cleaner + assault gun + anti-aircraft weapon ... Urya - the prodigy turned out.


        What’s the prodigy right away?

        Why it was possible to create such complexes in aviation (SU-39 attack aircraft, KA-50 (52), MI-28 attack helicopters), in agricultural production, tractors can also work with various attachments, excavators, bulldozers, etc. P.
        But for the ground forces such a complex can not be created and is inappropriate?

        laughing
        Glad to hear you, Sasha.
        hi
        Sorry, I don’t believe in a child prodigy ...
        She herself will be guarded and protected, and not (wah), let into battle.
        Distributing calibers and other weapons among ... several machines operating in the system is a tactical solution. Itno TACTICAL.

        Now, if anyone is interested in the topic (and it’s the I – V characteristic as topical), try to simulate yourself:
        1. For example, you would like to have the following weapons on the battlefield (do not touch the artillery and funds of a superior commander so as not to get confused):
        - tank smoothbore gun,
        - a barrel of low ballistics of large caliber,
        - 57mm
        - 40mm
        - AGS
        - machine guns 7,62 and 12,7
        - ATGM
        - SAM
        - and ... Well, all that exactly YOU want is that I just typed without thinking for an example.

        2. Next, select the types of machines, i.e. how many platforms you need for this is your weapon. BMP and Tank, these are two platforms, maybe ... Still need? Justify this need and add.

        3. Make a TACTICAL construction of the equipment you invented with weapons in various types of combat and in various theater of operations.

        True, try it.
        A fascinating thing, the head just explodes.
        laughing
        And most importantly - the technique of DIRECT contact with the enemy should be as simple as possible in use and maintenance, otherwise it will be just a disposable weapon.)))
        Sincerely good luck.
        1. The Art of War
          +1
          21 February 2015 15: 21
          wassat smile Damn I like the BMP-3M, but I don’t really like how the landing party is sitting, and I also wanted to put on a BAGCHU wassat I don’t know what to choose, a separately controlled turret or like a 12,7 machine gun on an RBM or like on a BMP-2M Berezhok grenade launcher to cover sides
          1. +2
            21 February 2015 16: 07
            Quote: The Art of War
            like how the landing is sitting

            well done Chinese, we copied our BMP-3 .. BUT right away with Chinese characteristics ... they simply re-arranged ((although this is far from easy))) with the front MTO-ZBD04 (WZ502) ....
            but in the new ZBD-04 (WZ502G) modification, the BM mass is clearly increased, and therefore the security ((and tank rollers, if I'm not mistaken))
            1. +1
              21 February 2015 16: 12
              Quote: cosmos111
              well done Chinese

              Andrei
              hi
              So these, damn it ... well done for a long time.
              They make quiet glanders everything as it should and as it should be.
              Radishes.

              ... Brother is chewing!
              I was in the hospital and could not congratulate him on his birthday.
              drinks
        2. +2
          21 February 2015 15: 35
          Aleks tv
          The question is simple, until the equipment is run-in in tactical formations, we are dreaming about where much is needed. But this, run-in, at the experimental exercises, since the time of the Union, you can’t see it ..

          3. Make a TACTICAL construction of the equipment you invented with weapons in various types of combat and in various theater of operations.

          What clever man thought of a regimental system, to kill, to give birth instead, it is not clear that either a pregnant regiment, or an unfinished division?

          Was in MSD, your TP with SME? Was.
          What is stopping now, since the regiments have crushed the reformers to the joy of having an OTB with their full-time company of BMPT and full-time MCP?
          What kind of theater for such a tactical structure? Western is quite suitable.
          1. +1
            21 February 2015 15: 43
            In theory, the brigade should have two tank battalions.

            Then it turns out that in the first echelon there will be two "bundles" of MSB + TB + SADN
            And one SME in the second tier.

            Everything is beautiful and logical.

            Quote: vladkavkaz
            What clever man thought of a regimental system, to kill, to give birth instead, it is not clear that either a pregnant regiment, or an unfinished division?

            laughing
            Better "Pregnant Regiment or Premature Division"
            1. The Art of War
              +1
              21 February 2015 15: 49
              In theory, there should be two tank battalions in the brigade. Is it about 90 tanks?
              1. +1
                21 February 2015 15: 58
                Tank battalions of three-troop composition.
            2. +1
              21 February 2015 15: 51
              Lopatov
              Better a full-time MSD than this is a miracle of Serdyukov’s reforms. SMEs are able to form two BTGr equivalent to amplification, a pregnant woman does not understand than a team, one with difficulty.

              You laugh .. well, laugh, in the connection you know on Sputnik, after all the reorganizations, other mockery of common sense, the OTB remained .. "experts in military affairs" arrived with the general leadership manners, looked at the OTB ...
              And in response to them, when you sign something there, at least look at what and where you are writing, you paled from your face. We limited ourselves to yelling about sewer manholes unpainted in fly agaric and took off
              I DO NOT UNDERSTAND why they deleted that part of the comment?
              Was there himself, the one who removes comments on the commission of the pareksharkunpolukovdts?
              1. 0
                21 February 2015 16: 06
                The "Serdyukovskaya" reform of the OSHS was banally not completed. We stopped at the transitional version and began to invent who in what way. As a result, we have an even bigger mess in OSHS than it was in the USSR.

                On Sputnik, now, according to the idea of ​​a new settler, the 503th regiment was finally transferred closer to the park ... And according to the stories there is generally a complete madhouse, they even acquired a special forces battalion.
                1. 0
                  21 February 2015 16: 36
                  Lopatov
                  There are no regiments for a long time, the parks were as they were and where they were, the barracks of ash became larger by the demolition of the Rembat park. Well and, as always, the smartest decisions, to kill the battery, to put the Rambath into a pure field ...
                  1. 0
                    21 February 2015 16: 48
                    It’s clear that no. After all, there were 693 regiments before the reforms. He was sent to the Khudars, and 503 were transferred to Sputnik from the city. And from it, in fact, formed the 19th brigade. From the stories, I understand ...

                    As for the battery, but what prevented it? Okay, Rembat, there, as I understand it, they built new barracks.
                    1. 0
                      21 February 2015 17: 13
                      Shovels (
                      Zdraste..Accumulator provided the whole life cycle for all the battery in the division .. they counted the line, but like the rimbat, reducing its functions to the base of the concentration of the broken equipment -All, the rest, according to the durführer of the baluster workshop, was to do the thinking and the network of outsourcers
                      Well, the shelves, yes, became the base for the brigades ..
            3. +2
              21 February 2015 15: 59
              Quote: vladkavkaz
              What clever man thought of a regimental system, to kill, to give birth instead, it is not clear that either a pregnant regiment, or an unfinished division?

              Quote: Spade
              In theory, the brigade should have two tank battalions.

              Greetings, Guard.
              hi
              For me, a division with regiments is an ideal structure.
              This is the WOMAN that "gives birth" and:
              - Brigades with the right structure for a specific theater.
              - A fucking cloud of BTGr with the support of the "senior commander".
              - It can act independently.
              But: keeping a deployed division is unprofitable ... but according to 2-3 in the district it is simply necessary to have one. Divisions + individual Brigades - quite normally they can coexist together.

              The current Brigades have already talked about this - these are castrated divisions from which 2 SMEs and TPs were taken. (increasing TB to 41 machines, as was the case in the state of TB SMEs).
              Those. The "tail" of the attached units and subunits of the current brigades is practically the same as that of the old divisions.
              - On the one hand: this is a convoy.
              - On the other hand, this is mobilization potential. Introduce linear regiments there and - a finished division.
              1. +2
                21 February 2015 16: 25
                Management of the division by the Westerners, under its composition, brigades, about 1000 snouts, with equipment and everything else, the composition of the brigades changes from the task, and with us? The brigade directly to the Army?

                This chestfuhrer created a structure that is not viable.
                If only because the functions that were seized from the ARMY are given to the Okrug, they are superfluous for the DISTRICT, get stuck in small numbers and accordingly decisions are made from obviously belated, to directly idiotic, example frames, they brought to Moscow in general, leaving agreement for the okrug .. log in wheels ..
                Parts of the ARTO were seized, some structures were created under the auspices of the rear, in which the rear, like that cart with the fifth wheel, does not understand either the tasks of the ARTO or the application, nothing at all, used to counting footcloths, throwing porridge, and pushing fuel and lubricants to the fence ..
                In general, when they stupidly copy something unusual for us, we get a freak incapable of life ..
                1. 0
                  21 February 2015 16: 41
                  Quote: vladkavkaz
                  The brigade directly to the Army?

                  Yeah, Vlad.
                  The army now plays the role of the Operational Command (headquarters), but in fact ... it is the headquarters of a reinforced division.

                  By the way, I can’t find out everything:
                  Where Kantemirovka was "stuck" (as a division) into the current structure:
                  Brigade-Operational Command-District?
                  winked
                  1. 0
                    21 February 2015 16: 45
                    They say the County closed.
                    In another way, Serdyukfuhrer didn’t get into this gimmick.
                    If there wasn’t an open resource, then I would say what this idio is turning into. With this structure Brigade-Operational Command-District
                    1. 0
                      21 February 2015 16: 52
                      Quote: vladkavkaz
                      They say the County closed.

                      Circus.
                      Well, yes ... but in a different way, since such an operating structure.
                      1. +2
                        21 February 2015 16: 59
                        Aleks tv
                        You will have to pay a lot for this circus, only the main clown, as always, will remain out of business, others will fall under the distribution.
                        After all, it’s not that the experience of Afghanistan, they forgot, even Chechnya is not remembered, although from the experience of those battles and examples of recruiting weapons, Yu forces, weapons, staff, in the end, tons of paper were written down, when he wrote WHERE EVERYTHING? Well, don’t have seven spans in your forehead to understand where all this was done, as a result we get that the tents are created by people far from the troops, the states are created not for use and for the convenience of their use by commanders, but for a tick, they say we all know we see everything, we will write everything, in between the bullet ...
                        In the first Chechnya, I collected 13 BTRs, three LNG, four AGSs and 18 PCs in the MCP, I felt great, with 62 GPs in addition ..
              2. +3
                21 February 2015 16: 27
                Welcome

                Quote: Aleks tv
                For me, a division with regiments is an ideal structure.
                This is the WOMAN that "gives birth" and:
                - Brigades with the right structure for a specific theater.

                That is, how did the Americans have before?
                I don’t know, I am in favor of the infantry being trained with its specific tankmen and its specific gunners.


                Quote: Aleks tv
                Those. The "tail" of the attached units and subunits of the current brigades is practically the same as that of the old divisions.
                - On the one hand: this is a convoy.
                - On the other hand, this is mobilization potential. Introduce linear regiments there and - a finished division.

                And where to get it from? We wouldn’t have tormented our ass, we made divisions with three brigades, one full-blooded, two cropped. And they would have dragged all of these ORBs, special forces battalions, and others from the division base there.
                1. +3
                  21 February 2015 16: 40
                  Lopatov
                  "" Wouldn't torture the ass, made divisions with three brigades, one full-blooded, two cropped. And we would have dragged all these ORBs, special forces battalions, and others from the divisional base there. "- THIS is necessary to think, and who will think there, if the generation of those who could think was kicked out of the Army by a hearty, there were either wild plants or shakuns left? to drag the gifts around the offices?
                  NOT everything is of course, otherwise it would be generally sad, but if there is something .. if the brigade commander is 35 years old, then I'm sorry that something doesn’t grow together here, there is no brilliant leadership for the brigade at all, but it’s blooming and smells cruise the bail and nomination of persons close to the body of the emperor is from life, one special brigade, managers ...
                2. +1
                  21 February 2015 16: 45
                  Quote: Spade
                  We wouldn’t have tormented our ass, we made divisions with three brigades, one full-blooded, two cropped. And they would have dragged all of these ORBs, special forces battalions, and others from the division base there.

                  Not bad at all.
                  Only brigades' tails will be superfluous if they (brigades) are part of a division.
                  They can be called shelves ...)))
                  1. 0
                    21 February 2015 16: 56
                    Here are all the tails and store in the division. Why did the brigade during the database in Central Asia pontoon bridge park?
                  2. +2
                    21 February 2015 17: 10
                    Someone would write an article, what kind of staff would be needed, there would be something to talk about ..
                    1. +2
                      21 February 2015 17: 18
                      Quote: vladkavkaz
                      Someone would write an article, what kind of staff would be needed, there would be something to talk about ..

                      Vlad, lies unfinished.
                      Tyama is not enough.
                      feel

                      Here the author is desirable, who served both in the old system and in the new, otherwise objectivity is lost.
                      I myself would love to read sound material on this topic.
                      But ... if you paint the OSH by district, taking into account the differences in the theater of war ... the secret thing is obtained.)))
                      And without it - a kindergarten, not an article, since there is more than one template in the OSh (and this is now).
                      1. +1
                        21 February 2015 17: 23
                        It would be enough in relation to one district-Novorossiysk
                        And it’s not secret and there’s something to talk about, and a theater of operations, HBO is just interesting, there at one time the Fritz was pounded, be healthy as that.
                        Well, something like now ..
                        http://maxpark.com/community/4663/content/3306475
                      2. +2
                        21 February 2015 17: 25
                        http://samlib.ru/a/aleksandr_walerxewich_girin/struktura_glava_2.shtml
                      3. +2
                        21 February 2015 17: 50
                        This is from this article, which means this article from the times of justifying the stupidity of the reform of the commander-in-chief - "Experience of military operations of combined arms formations in armed conflicts in Yugoslavia (1991-2001) and Iraq (1990, 2003), operations to force Georgia to to the world (August 7-17, 2009) showed that the organizational structure and armament of combined-arms formations and formations did not correspond to the goals, tasks, forms and methods of combat operations.In terms of their combat composition, motorized rifle (tank) divisions are too cumbersome to conduct combat operations in an armed conflict, therefore, in combat operations in the Caucasus in full force were not used. The rigid OSH of a motorized rifle (tank) division does not allow a quick response to changes in the conditions of the situation and is not capable of meeting the operational-tactical and physical-geographical conditions of a specific operational area. "

                        How the author of this hefty opus, took into account the experience of Yugoslavia in relation to the division, how he deduced that the South Ossetian conflict somehow and somehow proved that the division as an instrument of war has outlived itself ... probably only to the chest-freretor and the one who commissioned this opus and wrote.

                        And then comes the pulling of Münhausen himself by the hair from the swamp, with the description of new terms invented, the tactical command-Division, the tactical battle group-brigade, in general, a fuss made from an alloy of the author’s fantasies and the current views of the West on the actions of the troops.
                        But I haven’t seen something recently, as the WEST, with my tactical combat groups, I succeeded somewhere, for example, the very Georgia, which was trained according to NATO brigade standards, received notable trends from BTGr, created in regiments, with forces of support from the division and the army. Or the very Ukraine, whose troops are created on a brigade basis ...
                      4. 0
                        21 February 2015 20: 22
                        And you see the list of his works http://samlib.ru/a/aleksandr_walerxewich_girin/about.shtml
                      5. +2
                        21 February 2015 20: 34
                        I have nothing but mat, according to this "talented" writer-parquet warrior, nothing.
                        In 1992 he graduated with honors from the Leningrad Higher Military-Political School of Air Defense named after Yu.V. Andropova.
                        In 2000 he graduated from the Training Center of the OA of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation with a degree in lecturer in general military disciplines.
                        In 2005 he graduated with honors from the Combined Arms Academy of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation.

                        In 1988-1992 - Cadet of the Leningrad Higher Military-Political School of Air Defense named after Yu.V. Andropova.
                        In 1992-1999 - Deputy commander, commander of a military unit (Ural Air Defense, Air Force and Air Defense Association).
                        In 1999-2001 he was a teacher, in 2001-2003. - Senior lecturer, head of the tactical training cycle of the Military Department of the Magnitogorsk State Technical University named after G.I. Nosova.
                        In 2003-2005 - Student of the Combined Arms Academy of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation.
                        In 2005-2013 - Lecturer in the Department of Tactics and Operational Art of the Military Academy of Military Air Defense of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation.
                        Since 2013 - Deputy Head of the Operations Department (St. Petersburg)

                        STUNNING .. Umishchu then there is nowhere to put ...
                        And he managed to pass the service, bypassing all the fields where it smells of blood and gunpowder ... a parquet general, natural ... poor operation department ..
                        Looks like "vertebrate" is not otherwise ...
                        Shash, Efanov, until recently, the beginner 58 A, this puppy, will be plugged not only in the belt, but in general by zero.
                      6. +1
                        21 February 2015 20: 45
                        And where was he "! Bloody", this is an air defense officer
                      7. +3
                        21 February 2015 21: 00
                        Lopatov
                        So what .. is this flyman climbing to talk about what he doesn’t have?
                        It would be better to write an opus, why Georgia’s air defense successfully worked out on our Tu 22 ..
                        These are parasitic and not at war with us and they rule ...
                      8. 0
                        21 February 2015 21: 23
                        And on the other hand, he is a teacher. So the staff must understand.

                        At least there is a rationale for their own calculations. That they didn’t bother with the reforms. Experimented right on nature

                        One 100th reconnaissance brigade in Mozdok is worth what ... A reconnaissance battalion with a tank company in its composition ...
                      9. 0
                        21 February 2015 21: 28
                        Thomas ruled there, from side to side and side, bang, sailed and cake cake ..
                        But a miraculous miracle happened there, noble, few people understand what they wanted, what happened and where to adapt all this ..
                      10. 0
                        21 February 2015 21: 35
                        And this is because there is no harmonious scientific theory, substantiation of one or another staff.

                        And just then, all kinds of theorists must justify it.

                        Then this staff should run in practice. I’ve seen a lot of artillery schools in his theories. And if you collect a hundred artillerymen, then there will be even more proposals. The infantry, tankers, and others will do the same.
                      11. +2
                        21 February 2015 21: 44
                        So the fact of the matter is, let’s say a mediocre air defense worker, and not even a captain and a talker in uniform, trawling, stuck out his tongue, put it in, cleaned up a workplace, don’t need a bang, combined arms tactics ... hacking an experimenter ... and where? Well, I also digging in my nose, I will get a goat and, using the example of its consideration, I will put forward the theory of fluctuations of bipolar fields, in a quasimagnetic liquid based on molecular gravity of fusel alcohol residues, it will be sci-fi ... just apply?
                        The trouble is that I PRACTICES listen, well, if half, but they don’t listen to the general public ..
                        Here’s an example, the SCRIPTISION OFFICE, they say they threw it at the tank, which causes it to interfere with someone, yeah .. but what about the crew’s bedleg, who, after at least 10 km of march through the mud, will simply die in front of the tank, scraping and pulling this very cape?
                        Wind sensor .. yeah, class, stick it on a tower in the front hemisphere, from luminium .. until the first good bush and goodbye amendments.
                      12. +3
                        21 February 2015 21: 13
                        Quote: Spade
                        And you see the list of his works http://samlib.ru/a/aleksandr_walerxewich_girin/about.shtml

                        Political worker.
                        As taught to produce combat leaflets, and stamps.
                        Fuh, tired of reading water ...

                        In general, it’s fun: the air defense political officer with minimal army experience teaches ground troops Tactics and other military wisdom.
                        Heh.
                        IMHO of course.
                      13. 0
                        21 February 2015 21: 25
                        Tactics teacher, not a political worker.
                      14. +2
                        21 February 2015 21: 26
                        Aleks tv
                        The sores of society, inevitably affect the military organization of society, we also have a cardiologist-minister of agriculture, a lawyer, an atomist, just dunce in deputy prime ministers, responsible for railway, he understands everything only after an impressive pendal across the whole country .. so here ..
      3. +1
        21 February 2015 18: 58
        Universal planes and helicopters do not exist ..... The Ka-50 did not have time to appear - had to be upgraded to get a normal attack aircraft ....
        Su-39 is definitely bad as a fighter, and most likely will not be very good as an attack aircraft. In any case, the very first attempt to "storm" the positions of even a platoon of motorized riflemen NURSAM and VPU will end, I believe, with damage to an expensive radar station in the front radio-transparent fairing.
        I'm afraid that this law of conservation of energy is preserved on tanks feel
  20. +2
    21 February 2015 16: 05
    Quote: wanderer_032
    or give the OMS the ability to fire in auto mode).


    This is the whole point. There is no need to create a special vehicle if the OMS will independently identify targets and prepare for a shot. And now everything is going exactly to this, the person is already unable to cope. The battle speeds are completely different. And such a system can be installed on a tank. Place a 23 mm or 30 mm cannon and air blasting shells over the target, and the guidance is fully automatic. Such a system will be able to send a projectile into each window of a 14-storey building in 30 seconds. And the question of the difficulty of identifying the enemy's manpower directly can be solved with an increased ammunition load, and let the OMS work on the principle of "Something alive? - one shell!" Let the tank commander figure out in fact whether to add or not. And be sure to add a mode of preventive processing of objects along the route.
    1. wanderer_032
      +1
      21 February 2015 18: 08
      Quote: Concealer
      And be sure to add the mode of preventive processing of objects along the route of movement.


      Is it not too much? And then his infantry and can go forward (in order to take up positions in the building), and the commander of the car can forget about it in the heat of battle.
  21. +2
    21 February 2015 16: 51
    dear, I read a bunch of literature and I’ll say one thing the division is tested and today it’s the best as a designer where you can strengthen or disassemble it into separate parts, teams should be equipped with reinforcement parts that take time to replenish personnel, as an option, a brigade for certain tasks ( peacekeeping, to strengthen any direction), I don’t understand why do we need brigades at all, are we creating exposition troops?
    1. +2
      21 February 2015 17: 10
      And I think that at the moment it is impossible to say "this is the best." It is necessary to carry out serious scientific and then scientific and practical work, to model the database on computers, to conduct exercises.

      And only then decide
  22. 0
    21 February 2015 20: 21
    why not put on him Bahchu-U upgraded with two guns 2A42
  23. +2
    21 February 2015 20: 56
    "And here some difficulties arise. The fact is that the effectiveness of BMPT is not confirmed in practice ...."
    That says it all - briefly and succinctly! You can talk a lot, shake the air, but .... The effectiveness of this machine can only be confirmed by participation in real hostilities.
  24. MaHrycT
    +1
    21 February 2015 23: 07
    Yes, here’s the solution - multi-tower! laughing
    1. 0
      21 February 2015 23: 47
      Quote: MaHrycT
      Yes, here’s the solution - multi-tower!

      The T-35 was insanely expensive and inefficient. T-28 was an order of magnitude more efficient.
      1. -1
        23 February 2015 21: 36
        such a machine is needed - for propaganda purposes
        1. 0
          30 November 2017 10: 36
          for propaganda purposes it is necessary to make games (computer) \ films \ television shows \ exhibitions
          and \ military sports games and competitions \ etc ....
  25. AlexP47
    +2
    22 February 2015 00: 23
    BMPT can repeat the fate of multi-tower tanks, which showed their complete futility in the initial period of the Second World War.

    The idea at first glance seems to be not bad, a car having protection equal to MBT, but:

    1. Why do you need a paired (!!) 30 mm gun. Create a double density of fire for one purpose? But is it necessary? Excess: covered infantry and five trunks of this caliber can not be taken.
    2. Course grenade launchers: of course, the enemy infantry is so stupid that it will attack exclusively in the forehead.
    3. Main caliber: ATGM-placed openly. They will be swept away by ordinary rifle fire. Even the tank TURs are sheltered inside the reserved space.
    4. The number of crews is prohibitive and approaches the number of motorized rifle squad.
    My opinion: you need to create a full heavy BMP. This is a fire support vehicle and transport all rolled into one. And BMPT is too highly specialized and poorly functional.
  26. +3
    22 February 2015 05: 39
    I, as a large non-specialist in tanks, do not quite understand the expediency of adopting this Terminator. Against MBT, it is weak, against infantry it is also not the best tool due to the limited field of view and the limited ability to pick out this infantry from the trenches. Until today, the most reliable mediums for supporting tanks on the battlefield were the infantry, aviation, and artillery that accompanied them. Those. what the tank could not handle for one reason or another, they took upon themselves. Well, all the exotic that was hung on the terminator chassis can be quite successfully added as an add-on. modules for the main armament of the tank (if such an addition is appropriate for solving certain military missions. Moreover, the assortment and combat capabilities of the armament of the tank are growing steadily every year. For example, radars with AFAR used to combat ATGMs can be quite effectively used to detect other classes of targets that pose a threat to tanks. Yes, and industries with exploiters will be much easier to produce and maintain fewer models of armored vehicles. For example, I would be more densely occupied I was interested in information support for the tank crew and the inclusion of the tank information system as an ASUV element, and if there is detailed information about what is happening on the battlefield in real time and what is a direct threat to the tank in this field, choose the appropriate system weapons to neutralize this threat is already easier.The main thing is that these weapons systems (your own tank or external) were at hand for those who control the battle. Now, if they are not there, then no super super Terminator will help.
  27. 0
    22 February 2015 07: 07
    Guys, put at least three minuses, but explain what exactly you disagree with.
  28. Robespierre9
    +1
    22 February 2015 09: 05
    In recent years, in the open periodical press, the BMPT is considered an integral part of the tank units operating with the direct support of infantry on the BMP.

    BMPT is cooler than any BMP, Jews are unhappy - they have the same, only without turrets and crew - extras tongue


    In general, I am against BMPs and any other light equipment on the battlefield, too weak armor, only tanks and delivery vehicles, brought and took away EVERYTHING, no fighting on "cans", only really protected heavy equipment, such as this "Terminator," should fight "and not BMPs with armored personnel carriers, yes, the best delivery vehicle is a modern analogue of MTLBs, its main defense is a low silhouette, no monstrous turrets with cannons, only defensive weapons, so that there is no temptation to use this technique in battle - maximum CPV, or better, a PC with a drive or in a tower, as on the old MTLB, additional protection - hinged screens and a net, no monstrous protection, again, so that there is no temptation to "fight", the main criteria are speed, maneuver, mobility, quickly arrived and took the wounded and left, but don't you understand these monsters for what, either a tank or a Beter and you won't fight and you won't take a lot of troops ..


    According to BMPT, there is only one wish - one 40 mm gun in the center, rate of fire of 100-200 h / min :)


    Py.Sy. I read the article, the author can hardly be called a saboteur, "82-mm KO" here, to put it mildly, is completely out of place, but how air defense is such a machine is not appropriate, there are other weapons with everything, with different speeds and so on, look at what "Yenisei" -thread chtoli.
  29. +1
    23 February 2015 00: 16
    How survivable is the turret with armament when fired by a machine gun or automatic gun ???? There, everything is stupidly not demolished, including anti-tank systems? It looks very flimsy.
  30. 0
    April 3 2015 22: 04
    We must look back at the experience of the 2nd World War. I think you need a triplex: Main tank + Assault tank + heavy infantry fighting vehicle
    Everything is clear with the new tank. Assault tank - the main armament of a mortar / howitzer 152-203 mm, defensive armament - AGS and / or KPVT; Heavy BMP - 40-50 mm automatic cannon, or a 120 mm universal gun, and a couple of machine guns. The chassis is uniform. Although, of course, it is easy to write, design, and even more difficult to do. Interestingly, and the tower shoulder straps are much different in diameter? Is it possible to manufacture replaceable modules for obsolete T-55, T-62 tanks? A purely personal opinion - the future belongs to the modules. And what about the OUV ... Why then all these "shells" with "tunguska", "beeches" and "tori"? Every ram ... well, you know further.
    1. 0
      30 November 2017 11: 16
      Quote: Stilet
      Assault tank - the main armament of the mortar / howitzer 152-203 mm, defensive armament - AGS and / or KPVT;