Assessment of the capabilities of anti-aircraft weapons in active counteraction to small-sized UAVs

185
We will conduct a brief assessment of the capabilities of anti-aircraft weapons to actively counter small-sized UAVs.

Как was defined above, reconnaissance assets that should provide anti-aircraft systems with timely information on the coordinates of air targets, while working on small-sized UAVs, are not yet able to cope with this task. Realized detection ranges do not allow the command posts (control points) of anti-aircraft groups to participate in the process of controlling the fire of subordinate means, thereby reducing the potential combat capabilities of the groups. In such cases, anti-aircraft fire (launch of missiles) by air defense systems should be carried out independently (autonomously) on the basis of previously given instructions on firing. In this case, the initial data for the preparation and conduct of firing (UAV coordinates) should be issued by reconnaissance equipment available as part of the air defense missile system (ZAK). Modern anti-aircraft complexes are designed in such a way that each firing unit has an autonomous system of reconnaissance of air targets as part of a circular review radar, sector search radar, radio receiving complex, passive radar, television optical sight, thermal imager, optical sight, and so on. .

However, firing units in the conduct of the fight against small-sized aerial targets face similar problems, due to the specifics of the construction and combat use of the UAV.

The main factors contributing to the complexity of the fight against UAVs:

• low weight and dimensions and, as a result, a small detection range;
• low acoustic noise level (around 50 dB at distances above 1000 m, which is below the hearing threshold);
• insignificant values ​​of the effective area of ​​dispersion (0,01 – 0,1 м2) and thermal contrast;
• low vulnerability of the structures of the bearing surfaces from the fire impact of air defense systems;
• a fairly wide range of flight speed (10 – 30 m / s);
• availability of opportunities for suppression and self-destruction of air defense systems;
• ability to direct attack aircraft, helicopters and artillery to air defense assets;
• ability to fly at extremely low altitudes (up to 200 m);
• insensitivity to the psychological effects of fire of air defense systems of air defense systems.

Studies of the fire capabilities of the air defense missile system Secondary class (type Hermes-450) have the following anti-aircraft complexes (systems):

a) around the clock: Buk-М1 SAM, "Thor-M1" и SAM "Osa-AKM";
b) in the daytime (with optical visibility): "Tunguska-M" и LAW "Strela-10М3".


UAB middle class Elbit Hermes 450


However, effective defeat tactical reconnaissance mini-UAVs is extremely difficult. This is confirmed by the practical results of firing range of the air defense missile system at small unobtrusive mini-UAV air targets.

Thus, the results of field tests showed that the radar of the autonomous anti-aircraft systems "Top-M1", "Oca-AKM" are able to detect mini-UAVs at 3,3 – 7,4 km ranges. Given that the speed of the mini-BLAH is of the order of 50 – 250 km / h, the combat calculations of these air defense missile systems will have enough time to conduct pre-launch operations and shelling the target. Nevertheless, the practical experience of experimental shooting at small targets - analogues of UAVs ("Bee", RUM-2MB and "Flight") testifies to the low effectiveness of their defeat. The main reasons for this are the imperfection of the control system for undermining the warhead of the missile defense system, as well as large errors in tracking the target and guiding the missile defense.

The results of the evaluation of the possibility of firing a missile defense system "Tunguska" on a mini-UAV show that firing missile weapons at this type of target is almost impossible. This is due to the fact that the detection range of a mini-UAV in an optical sight is only 2 – 3 km, which is almost equal to the distance to the near border of the affected area of ​​the complex.

Shooting ZPRK "Tunguska" cannon armament fundamentally possible. However, due to the small geometric dimensions of the BLAH, the effectiveness of firing at it will be low.

Practice shows that when firing a mini-drone type Aquila cannon armament at a distance of 3 km to achieve a conditional probability of hitting a target equal to 0,5, you must expend from 4 to 13 thousand anti-aircraft projectiles (i.e., 2 – 6 b / c), and at a distance of 1 km from 0,5 to 1,5 thousand shells (0,3 – 0,8 b / c).

For the same reason shooting ZSU-23-4 on targets such as "mini-drone" is also ineffective.

Assessment of the capabilities of anti-aircraft weapons in active counteraction to small-sized UAVs
Mini-BLA Lockheed MQM-105 Aquila


When shooting MANPADS "Igla" mini-UAVs are affected by the difficulty of detecting a small-sized low-noise aerial target. Timely detection and launch of missiles at such a goal for the gunner will be extremely difficult.

This is due to the following factors:

• a decrease in the contrast of the target image when the optical device moves (moves);
• the rapidly developing visual fatigue of the gunner;
• low acoustic noise of a mini-UAV engine (around 50 dB at a distance of 1000 m, which is below the sensitivity threshold of the organs of hearing);
• reduction of time for analysis of the surveyed space.

Moreover, if even a small-sized target was found, the homing head (GOS) of the missile defense system may simply not capture the target. This is due to the fact that the thermal contrast of a mini-BLAH, having mainly piston engines, is two orders of magnitude lower than the threshold sensitivity of the GOS ZUR receiver. In addition, the low effectiveness of firing of the Igla MANPADS for a mini-BLA is also explained by the absence of a system for remotely undermining the combat unit of the Zur-Zor.

In subsequent modifications of this MANPADS, a non-contact fuse was introduced, providing for the undermining of the missile’s combat equipment as it flies relative to the target with some slip. In addition, increasing the effectiveness of firing the complex at small targets (CD, UAV) was achieved by increasing the power of the missile defense system, optimizing its accuracy characteristics, etc.

Evaluation of the Strela-10М3 air defense system shows that the complex is capable of striking mini-UAVs of the Akila type only in daytime conditions. The possibility of firing the “Strela-10М3” air defense missile system at this type of target is mainly determined by the target detection range of the operator and the range of capture of the GOS ZUR. The average detection range of the Akila-type mini-UAVs by the Strela-10М3 SAM system is 1,3 – 4,5 km, which is extremely small for effective shooting. The operator's use of an integrated optical sighting device in a limited search sector (if accurate target designation is available) allows increasing the detection range of a small target 1,5 – 2,1 times.

For similar reasons, the calculated capture range of the Akila-type mini-UAV of the Akila type photocontrast channel (FC) will be low and amount to 2,8 – 3,5 km, and target acquisition by the infrared channel (IR) is generally impossible due to its extremely low thermal radiation.


LAW "Strela-10М3" capable of striking a mini-UAV only in daytime conditions


At the same time, it should be noted that the Akila UAV is an obsolete mini-UAV that has been removed from service, and modern mini-UAVs have smaller dimensions and thermal contrast in 1,5 – 2. The effectiveness of shooting at such targets (already low) will be significantly reduced.

Experimental studies, including the results of combat launches at targets - analogs of small-sized air targets showed that the shooting at the Strela-10SV, Strela-10М systems was carried out mainly in the FK range, and on the heading in a limited part of the zone start. The missile launch ranges for these complexes averaged 1,5 – 2,0 km. The upgraded Strela-10М3 ADMS has higher shooting capabilities at small mini-UAV air targets, as the reaction time has decreased, the missile warhead weight has increased, the likelihood of the proximity sensor has increased, and automated target targeting processing has been implemented .

Thus, the results of studies of the possibility of detecting and destroying mini-UAVs by means of air defense troops indicate that the detection of small targets by the radar stations KP units and subunits of the air defense troops is ineffective, and often impossible even in a noiseless environment. Radar detection of these targets is difficult due to the influence of radar reflections from the underlying surface and local objects. Due to the low speed of the mini-UAV flight, the reflected signal can be completely or partially suppressed by the MCC. As a result, the problem of recognition of a mini-UAV also remains unresolved.

The anti-aircraft systems of the air defense forces have extremely limited capabilities for detecting and firing mini-UAV type air targets. These air defense missile systems (ZAK, ZPRK) were developed to solve many tasks, including to defeat small targets, but the rapidly developing means of air attack once again outstripped the development of air defense weapons systems, turning to the use of UAVs with extremely small EPR values.

The appearance in service of military groupings of micro and nano UAVs turned out to be another surprise and still an unsolvable "surprise" for the modern air defense system of troops and objects.

It is obvious that in such conditions it is necessary to develop a system of measures for the organization and maintenance of an effective response to small-sized UAVs.


Authors:
Yeremin Gleb Vladimirovich - Colonel, Head of the Military Academy of Troops Air Defense of the RF Armed Forces
Anatoly Dmitrievich Gavrilov - Leading Researcher of the Military Academy of Military Air Defense of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, Doctor of Military Sciences, Professor, Reserve Lieutenant General
Nazarchuk Igor Ignatievich - Senior Researcher of the Military Academy of Army Air Defense, Lieutenant Colonel of the Reserve
185 comments
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  1. +13
    1 February 2015 06: 38
    Soooo! And how to bring down their adversaries? it is necessary to ask the redhead for a nanogap)))))))
    1. +25
      1 February 2015 09: 13
      Quote: astronom1973n
      Soooo! And how to bring down their adversaries?


      And it is not necessary to use missile and cannon weapons, "waves" will help here. It is much more efficient to work with electronic warfare on such objects, in my opinion.
      1. +2
        1 February 2015 17: 57
        Suppression or capture of control channels, plus high density bicasin in azimuth!
        1. Vita_vko
          +2
          1 February 2015 18: 46
          Quote: Tol100v
          Suppression or capture of control channels, plus high density bicasin in azimuth!

          In the event of loss of control, many UAVs have their own return program to the landing site. Therefore, electronic warfare is not a panacea. The authors are right. The problem really exists because during the development of SAM systems, the option of their use against UAVs was not considered.
          Low speed, EPR, noise, heat generation, all these are serious factors for the possibility of timely detection of UAVs. But having your own radio radiation is just a gift for RTR. If it is possible to develop cheap ammunition homing on its own radiation targets, then in principle the problem can be solved.
          1. +2
            1 February 2015 23: 45
            Quote: Vita_vko
            In the event of loss of control, many UAVs have their own return program to the landing site. Therefore, electronic warfare is not a panacea.

            And take the dog off, let them fly. More importantly, they will not complete the task.
          2. 0
            2 February 2015 17: 57
            Quote: Vita_vko
            If it is possible to develop cheap ammunition homing on its own radiation targets, then in principle the problem can be solved.


            Something like this - http://topwar.ru/42757-avtonomnaya-zenitnaya-raketa-siam-ssha.html?
            1. Vita_vko
              +1
              3 February 2015 15: 32
              Quote: Greenhorn
              Something like this - http://topwar.ru/42757-avtonomnaya-zenitnaya-raketa-siam-ssha.html?

              Not really. Now there are a lot of missiles homing on radiation like PRLR (anti-radar missiles) https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CF%F0%EE%F2%E8%E2%EE%F0%E0%E4%E8% EE% EB% EE% EA% E0% F
              6%E8%EE%ED%ED%E0%FF_%F0%E0%EA%E5%F2%E0
              But unfortunately, they are expensive to destroy UAVs. Although the development of modern microelectronics very simply allows you to make a passive radar homing head in any frequency range.
              For example, you can use the Israeli experience in the modernization of NURSs in URSs, but instead of using a laser guidance head, put a radar.
      2. +2
        1 February 2015 19: 25
        Practice shows that when firing mini-UAVs of the Akila type with cannon armament at a distance of 3 km, in order to achieve a conditional probability of hitting a target equal to 0,5, it is necessary to use from 4 to 13 thousand anti-aircraft shells (i.e., 2 – 6 b / c) , at a range of 1 km - from 0,5 to 1,5 thousand shells (0,3 – 0,8 b / c).

        it's time to arm the anti-aircraft artillery with shells with remote detonation. besides such developments already exist. put the timer in the detonator, and hit the UAV not only with a direct hit, but also with a fragmentation defeat. such shells are more expensive, but fewer will be needed to hit the target.
      3. 0
        1 February 2015 19: 27
        Let's not forget that the UAV operator also encounters considerable difficulties in night conditions. The college studied their capabilities. Mostly optical intelligence. Like dads, they unmasked themselves. Well, the range of application is limited. Increasing the range increase the size and this again is unmasking.
      4. Ricardo
        -4
        1 February 2015 19: 37
        these drones are able to work autonomously, and they keep in touch via the satellite satellite
      5. +3
        1 February 2015 23: 16
        One hundred poods! Radio communications, Drones have a weak point. Electronic warfare can distort the radio channel so that the "pilot" of the drone will break the monitor from constant ripple. laughing
    2. +5
      1 February 2015 10: 01
      In Israel, they were shot down by short-range air-to-air missiles from the F-16. It is not clear to me why this was not done from the Vulcan cannon at close range (after all, a rocket costs at least half a lemon)
      1. +5
        1 February 2015 10: 44
        Quote: Chignoner
        It is not clear to me why this was not done from the Vulcan cannon at close range (after all, a rocket costs at least half a lemon)

        To do this, it would be necessary for the UAV to approach Vulcan, in this case, the missile has a higher range and probability of destruction ...
      2. +15
        1 February 2015 10: 45
        Quote: Chignoner
        In Israel they were shot down by missiles

        Who are they?
        The whole essence of the issue is precisely in the specific dimensions, EPR, heat, noise level. The whole world went round frames as the MiG-29 in Abkhazia is shot down by a rocket quite large Georgian drone of Israeli production.
        Such aircraft can destroy and air defense systems, especially modern ones: Shell, etc.
        But to clear the sky from small "drones", 1 m long, wingspan 0,8, and even made with the use of radio-absorbing materials, requires the development of new, special and inexpensive (a rocket can cost 100 more expensive than a drone) weapons.
        This, of course, is a tactical link UAV, but reconnaissance from them is also impossible.
        It is possible that combat lasers and electronic warfare equipment will be suitable for solving such problems (at least for incapacitating control and reconnaissance equipment)
        1. +1
          1 February 2015 11: 49
          Quote: Alekseev
          It is possible that combat lasers and electronic warfare equipment will be suitable for solving such problems (at least for incapacitating control and reconnaissance equipment)

          Americans are already shooting down drones with lasers:
          1. +10
            1 February 2015 12: 27
            Quote: professor
            Americans are already shooting down drones with lasers:

            It remains to find out how much it costs to fry 1 drone with a laser beam. Yes, and know the distance is not bad. By the way, what protections for the drone would you offer? There is a suspicion that laser protection will cost many times cheaper than such air defense
            1. +7
              1 February 2015 13: 41
              Quote: user1212
              It remains to find out how much it costs to fry 1 drone with a laser beam. Yes, and know the distance is not bad. By the way, what protections for the drone would you offer? There is a suspicion that laser protection will cost many times cheaper than such air defense

              It is important not how much the drone or laser costs, but how much the laser costs and what damage the drone can cause.

              Today we need to fear not a single drone (there are more or less solutions), but clusters of drones.
              1. +1
                1 February 2015 18: 06
                The price of a laser shot is pretty cheap. The installation itself is a little expensive. Yes, the range is limited to the line of sight.
                1. 0
                  1 February 2015 22: 45
                  And weather conditions.
                2. +1
                  3 February 2015 13: 13
                  It depends on which laser. Usually quite expensive.
                  Here's an EMP impulse to make costs like a FAB-50 bomb.

                  Alternatively, you can not shoot down the drone, but burn the cameras with it with a laser. This does not require any super-powerful lasers.

                  As another option - a rail gun. The shot is cheap, but the installation is very expensive and bulky.

                  Probably, it’s optimal to shoot down drones with artillery of 57-127 mm caliber or NURS, but with remote detonation like Erlikon and good SLA, and you can measure the distance with a lidar or laser range finder.
            2. +3
              1 February 2015 18: 01
              In Battlefield 4, a scout microdron was emulated. Apparently we are talking about this particular case. By the way, cynics are better off being silent.
              Shooting regular air defense means is expensive and not effective. It looks like shooting sparrows from a cannon.
              Since drones, the topic is quite new, it becomes a matter of creating light infantry, portable systems with the price of a shot, cheaper than hit targets.
              Lazar installations (professor) are effective. But they are not numerous and cannot be in the right place at the right time.
          2. 0
            1 February 2015 16: 58
            And ours in the 80s + microwave generator.
            1. 0
              3 February 2015 13: 16
              +5
              Great idea! Shoot a drone using a radar or jammer.
              True to the radar, the focusing requirements are strong, probably, the headlamp for tracking projectile trajectories will not help here, and surveillance radars are even more so.
        2. +2
          1 February 2015 16: 48
          It seems that you will need to use piston or very light turbojet aircraft (such as the Yak-52, L-39, maybe Yak-130) with the installation of machine guns or small-caliber guns on them (no more than 23 mm for ease of transportation). I think that to destroy an UAV, a high interceptor speed and power are not needed. It will be critical to install high-precision detection and aiming systems, but they can be pushed into a container and hooked when necessary.
          Perhaps this problem will serve as an impetus for the development of low-power air-to-air missiles and interceptor UAVs. I do not think that at this stage air defense systems will be effective against small-sized drones. First, they are difficult to find and mark for guidance. According to the data from this article, all pointing is by eye. The 21st century, however, is a triumph of precision technology. Secondly, the surface-to-air missile will be comparable in cost, if not more expensive, if it is normal in terms of price, there will be insufficient range and / or accuracy. The problem is "from a cannon to a sparrow." Again, in this aspect, I agree with Alekseev that the question arises of remote "brain frying". Moreover, in Russia, if sclerosis does not change me, there have been good developments on this issue.
          1. +2
            1 February 2015 21: 29
            Quote: Aqela
            It seems that you need to use piston or very light turbojet aircraft

            The Kamov Design Bureau proposed upgrading the K-50 as an UAV interceptor. I don’t know how success is.
          2. 0
            1 February 2015 22: 49
            everyone forgot about reconnaissance sabotage groups. But they can calmly destroy any mobile UAV control point.
            1. 0
              2 February 2015 09: 02
              Quote: mimrikov3
              everyone forgot about reconnaissance sabotage groups. But they can calmly destroy any mobile UAV control point.

              Yes, yes ... Drones in Iraq are controlled from ... Arizona.
              1. ICT
                +1
                2 February 2015 09: 13
                Quote: professor
                Yes, yes ... Drones in Iraq are controlled from ... Arizona.


                Well, there’s no problem with them, as I understand it, there’s no problem, but with such problems
                clumsy of course, there one is screwed to another, but it works
        3. 0
          1 February 2015 22: 43
          It is believed that in Belarus helicopters were tested to intercept the UAV.
      3. -3
        1 February 2015 11: 47
        Quote: Chignoner
        It is not clear to me why this was not done from the Vulcan cannon at close range (after all, a rocket costs at least half a lemon)

        Because they were shot down by missiles specially designed to fight drones.
        1. +2
          1 February 2015 15: 27
          Professor, can you tell us how the "specially designed anti-drones" missiles found these drones? Particularly interested in physical principles, or is it top secret?
          1. 0
            1 February 2015 15: 32
            Quote: vostok68
            Professor, can you tell us how the "specially designed anti-drones" missiles found these drones? Particularly interested in physical principles, or is it top secret?

            A former Israeli military atache in Russia spoke about missiles, but I don’t know about how drones were discovered.
            1. +3
              1 February 2015 15: 48
              You seem to have no idea what they told me about our weapons when I served in the USSR Navy! And there they told us the truth! Because I saw most of it with my own eyes! If you were "told by a former military attache of Israel in Russia, but about how they found drones, I am not aware" - maybe you should not publish such self-confident comments?
              1. 0
                1 February 2015 16: 02
                Quote: vostok68
                You do not seem to imagine what they told me about our weapons when I served in the USSR Navy! And there they told us the truth! Because most of this I saw with my own eyes!

                Do not believe me, but I also served in the Soviet Navy and I listened to fairy tales quite a lot.

                Quote: vostok68
                If you were "told by a former military attache of Israel in Russia, but about how they found drones, I am not aware" - maybe you should not publish such self-confident comments?

                Which are self-confident? I’ve already laid out the rock as F-16 knocks down the drone, I can search for the attaché’s interview, otherwise I don’t know or write.
                1. 0
                  1 February 2015 16: 12
                  "The Americans are already shooting down drones with lasers" - are you talking about that? (or another video, with f-16?)
                  1. 0
                    1 February 2015 18: 23
                    Actually, there are devices for shooting mosquitoes with a laser pointer on sale. I'm not kidding.
                    The Germans in Afghanistan use a laser system to protect their bases from mortar fire. Why not use drones?
                    Moreover, the purpose of microdrones, visual or electronic reconnaissance of a small radius of action. Accordingly, their price is not high.
                    1. +1
                      2 February 2015 09: 31
                      To kill mosquitoes with a laser ... it was the 1st April joke near a scientific journal. Now they can’t find a small UAV, but you are respected about the mosquito. By the way, that anti-mosquito system distinguished males from malicious females))))))).
                    2. 0
                      2 February 2015 09: 31
                      To kill mosquitoes with a laser ... it was the 1st April joke near a scientific journal. Now they can’t find a small UAV, but you are respected about the mosquito. By the way, that anti-mosquito system distinguished males from malicious females))))))).
              2. -2
                1 February 2015 18: 17
                Radar detection. And also visually.
                For example, the Aroma tank, it is promised to put a radar. Means of destruction should be commensurate with the standard tank grenade launcher staging smoke screens. Yes, and the price bar should match.
                And also it’s not bad to get Wi-Fi connection of a tank locator with a portable infantry complex.
    3. +8
      1 February 2015 10: 40
      Quote: astronom1973n
      And how to bring down their adversaries?

      With new electronic warfare systems ... Today is VERY EFFECTIVE, although not the cheapest way ...
      1. +6
        1 February 2015 11: 57
        There is another effective way against a mini UAV: ​​anti-aircraft guns of 57 mm caliber with a detonation of a projectile at a given distance. The only question is the detection and control. The C-60 (C-68) had a radar sight and could shoot down a target at a speed of up to 300 m / s at a height of up to 4000 m and a range of up to 6000 m. Now there may be a more modern gun with a range of up to 16 km.
        1. +6
          1 February 2015 12: 01
          Quote: Tektor
          The question is only in detection and control.

          This can be done by the station ARSOM. For example, "Aistenkom"
        2. +1
          1 February 2015 14: 14
          S-60 did not have shells with RVZ
        3. +3
          1 February 2015 19: 51
          Tektor
          There is another effective way against a mini UAV: ​​anti-aircraft guns of 57 mm caliber with a detonation of a projectile at a given distance. The only question is the detection and control. The C-60 (C-68) had a radar sight and could shoot down a target at a speed of up to 300 m / s at a height of up to 4000 m and a range of up to 6000 m. Now there may be a more modern gun with a range of up to 16 km.

          I agree with you. At the moment, only anti-aircraft artillery can fully combat UAVs. The Achilles' heel of them is intelligence. But one should not forget about the old forgotten military equipment. In fact, a UAV is a mini analogue of a propeller-driven aircraft of World War II. Then they organized VNOS posts, which were unfolding at the forefront and timely reported on the appearance of targets. Thus, the reconnaissance missile reconnaissance, equipped with modern means of optical and infrared ranges and means of transmitting information, GPS will precisely point at the UAV and the plane, and will correct the obstructive fire of ZA. And this question has been missed in the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation or simply imitated by wooden boxes. Our army does not have full-time modern air defense systems, as well as full-time units, which are armed with, moreover, would have MANPADS.
          As for short-range air defense systems. Correctly, the article says, completely blind. Personal experience, at the ZUS, UAVs were already found on the KP above his head, when he flew all the air defense positions. Not a single discovery report was made. The question is very serious!
      2. +2
        1 February 2015 14: 48
        New electronic warfare systems

        -What exactly? Which aren't there yet?)
        -The action of electronic warfare is not localized. There is a "great" chance to "extinguish" your own troops, over which the drones are flying.
      3. +1
        1 February 2015 18: 31
        Very effective undeniably. But against which drones? Proportional to small aircraft the size of a car. Then yes. If the car reb is in the radius of the drone.
        And if the drone is brought in an infantry pack? Does the REB car cover up another wound? And the radius of effective operation of such a drone is about 5 km. And how to bring him down.
        1. Hey
          +2
          1 February 2015 21: 13
          I would suggest a "suicide" drone. Simple and cheap flew up and exploded.
          Of course you can more expensive, such as a drone fighter.
    4. 0
      1 February 2015 17: 45
      Quote: astronom1973n
      Soooo! And how to bring down their adversaries? it is necessary to ask the redhead for a nanogap)))))))

      But you can’t visit on a radio signal, should it reset the operator?
    5. 0
      1 February 2015 17: 50
      Shoot down with other drones - fighter jets or crush radio interference.
    6. +1
      2 February 2015 02: 17
      If we are talking about mini-UAVs, then the old fashioned way: Customize all armored vehicles with automatic guns (BMPs, armored personnel carriers) and all large-caliber machine guns with memory and start to hit in the hope that the density of fire will be sufficient, something will reach the UAV. Given the fact that the UAV can be at a height of 2 km, and a diameter of 2-3 m, the effectiveness of such methods is, to say the least, doubtful.

      As practice shows, electronic warfare can only detect a control channel, but they are not capable of intercepting and even more so drowning out.

      So while the issue has not been resolved.
  2. +1
    1 February 2015 06: 47
    There is no reception against scrap?
    There is a second scrap.
    There is also an antidote to mini UAVs.
    1. +6
      1 February 2015 07: 26
      Well, they somehow planted the same? If you can’t rocket, you can EW ...
      1. +4
        1 February 2015 10: 00
        It is possible to provide an option in the UAV control program when the control signal disappears, returning to GPS or GLONAS coordinates, and trying to deceive with the help of electronic warfare by periodically requesting keys from the command center. Another thing is how resistant the UAV electronics to microwave irradiation will be.
        1. +3
          1 February 2015 10: 47
          Quote: Mavric
          It is possible to provide an option in the UAV control program when the control signal disappears, returning to GPS or GLONAS coordinates, and trying to deceive with the help of electronic warfare by periodically requesting keys from the command center.
          And if the "brains" by this time will not "think" anything, then how? Although, of course, the struggle will continue in this direction ...
        2. +2
          1 February 2015 18: 36
          While suppressing the control channel. If the drone is on autopilot. That is much harder.
      2. -1
        1 February 2015 18: 15
        For this there is a mini-EMP! Everyone is laughing and at the same time happy!
    2. +7
      1 February 2015 08: 24
      It is necessary to invent a mini-UAV fighter!
    3. VAF
      VAF
      +19
      1 February 2015 08: 53
      Quote: aszzz888
      There is no reception against scrap?
      There is a second scrap.
      There is also an antidote to mini UAVs.


      Why "go far" ... nature itself invented everything a long time ago wink

      It remains only .. to train and .... ran out of mini UAVs and not only mini .. t.k. birds are the same .. come in different sizes laughing

      1. ICT
        +12
        1 February 2015 09: 23
        ..............
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      2. +16
        1 February 2015 10: 54
        An interesting way of fighting, so to speak "living" against "undead". The eagle has the instinct to defend territory and catch anything that moves ... that's what works.
        But even as a joke, a UAV is a serious weapon ...
        Two Canadians decided to use the quadrocopter in an unusual way. They installed several fireworks on board the drone and began to hunt each other. As it turned out, even the smallest UAV can be quite an effective weapon.
        1. +2
          1 February 2015 18: 57
          It is about such drones that we are talking about. Small, not expensive. Cover a sufficient range.
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      7. 0
        2 February 2015 15: 32
        Quote: vaf
        sho long ago invented himself


        We watched the work of fighter "aviation" ...

        But the work of "air defense" ... laughing

  3. +4
    1 February 2015 07: 30
    you need to ask the redhead for a nanogap

    I will not say anything about the redhead ... but the Yugoslavs managed to shoot down several UAVs during the NATO bombing ... And after all, they shot down only with "our" means - they simply did not have others ... And here's what is surprising: NATO generals are SOOO reluctantly admitted the losses among missiles and aircraft ..., and as soon as it came to "drones", they agreed willingly and immediately .... :) Perhaps because of the cost ...? request
    1. +5
      1 February 2015 10: 48
      In Georgia, in 2008, a UAV was shot down by a missile from a fighter jet, there is even footage. At low altitudes, anti-aircraft artillery of the "Shilka" type may well shoot down. And there not only radar stations, but also visual support work. This type of escort has long been used in both air defense systems and anti-aircraft artillery. but what can I say, for all this began :). Logically, the conclusion suggests itself that ammunition for small UAVs should have a lot of small fragments. The experts are probably already puzzled.
      1. +1
        1 February 2015 18: 43
        It was a larger target. There are no such problems.
    2. +2
      1 February 2015 18: 41
      Yugoslav UAVs are commensurate with the planes of World War II with the corresponding reflected surface area. And the price of those unmanned aerial vehicles was disproportionately high from the cost of an interceptor missile.
      Now we are talking about micro scouts carried by infantry in satchels.
  4. 0
    1 February 2015 07: 33
    If the UAV can be captured only within the limits of visual visibility, then only a laser or directional electromagnetic radiation remains. I don’t see another. what
    1. +4
      1 February 2015 09: 07
      This, to a greater extent, is not about the impossibility of capture and destruction, but about the impossibility, or extreme complexity of detection. Until the detection problem is reliably resolved, there is no point in developing new weapons, in my opinion.
      1. +7
        1 February 2015 13: 41
        There is no difficulty in actually detecting these objects. A distinctive feature of such devices is a large amount of telemetry data transmitted to the operator in real time. Any modern electronic warfare complex (EW) determines both the presence of the signal and its location. Suppressing or tracking such a signal is a matter of one click of the mouse.
        I do not understand the hysteria around this issue. If we are talking about unmanned aerial vehicles that conduct reconnaissance in real time (not offline), then there is no problem in principle. You don’t even have to spend shells and bullets on such an apparatus. The problem appears only in two cases:
        1. If the device is working offline. In this case, the rocket will fly from the enemy, but a little later.
        2. If our grief commanders (and as you know, the higher the rank, the worse it is with your head) will again decide that today you can fight in the old way, that is without the support of electronic warfare.
        That something like this.
        1. +6
          1 February 2015 18: 46
          You know, I already think it a sinful thing that electronic warfare equipment will mutually crush all advanced detection and communication equipment from opponents, and it will end up with fighters with assault rifles rushing around the battlefield in the old fashioned way, peeking out of the trench with binoculars, and they will control flags and colored rockets. laughing Exaggerate, of course.
        2. +1
          1 February 2015 18: 46
          Thanks, specifically, completely informative.
        3. +1
          1 February 2015 18: 57
          Quote: Cresta999
          I don’t understand the hysteria around this issue.

          The question is that, without having the means of electronic warfare, it is just stupid to "shoot" the bird.
          And this is a local problem, we don’t have shells with a programmable break time, for now, the author of the topic just focuses on this topic wink
          1. +2
            1 February 2015 21: 53
            Dear locksmith. The question is that such reasoning among the professional military today is simply harmful. For letting out some kind of unit on the battlefield without cover for electronic warfare units is a criminal activity. It's the same as if the infantry had not been given anti-tank weapons fifty years ago. In my post, that's exactly what I'm worried about. There is no need to consider the situation "when there are no electronic warfare funds." You need to have them!
  5. Tanks
    0
    1 February 2015 07: 52
    Perhaps they can be fought with the help of an em pulse, periodically burning through the airspace (once every 30 minutes / hour)? I read about the gizmo domestic, 10 km disables electronics. Plus, stealth technology to put on the ground, aviation was dressed in it not from a good life.
    1. +3
      1 February 2015 08: 18
      Well then it turns out that not only can they not fly, but ours too))
      Also, the pulse source can be detected and the fire corrected for it ...
  6. +2
    1 February 2015 08: 20
    It’s good that the problem has been voiced, so you can count on its solution.
  7. +1
    1 February 2015 08: 21
    The main thing is to define the tasks, implementation difficulties, parameters of inconspicuous objects, maximum detection range ... And to develop new types of weapons for the destruction of UAVs. Even a "harmless" copter can cause great harm, but it is very difficult to detect it ...
  8. +1
    1 February 2015 08: 29
    In order to bring down an UAV, it is necessary to detect it. Detection tools will certainly improve in the first place, well, after the means of destruction ....
  9. +4
    1 February 2015 08: 37
    Fans of EM momentum and other exotic suggest immediately using a thermonuclear weapon is very effective.
    Someone with a simpler imagination can use special "anti-drone missiles":


    PS
    The Persians went the other way by placing conventional MANPADS on the drone:
    1. 0
      1 February 2015 09: 13
      I think it will be much more promising, in my opinion, there will be electronic warfare equipment that, without any EMP pulses and nuclear explosions, will allow, if not destroy the drones, then hinder their work.
    2. +1
      1 February 2015 11: 38
      Microwave installation can be easily applied.
      1. 0
        1 February 2015 11: 45
        Quote: Spade
        Microwave installation can be easily applied.

        You can just as easily apply a Faraday cage.
        1. +2
          1 February 2015 11: 53
          No questions, you can. But why is such a drone needed? To be? Why do we need a drone that does nothing?

          In addition, the issue with the mover. It is necessary to invent gravitational.
          1. +4
            1 February 2015 12: 04
            A microwave installation for intercepting drones is just as fantastic as a Faraday flying cell. Although not. Faraday cage is more realistic.

            PS
            The air defense has no time to "think" as the drones-komikadze will go in the first row.


            1. +1
              1 February 2015 12: 13
              Oh-yo-yoy, to create an installation for the remote destruction of IEDs is not fiction, but to fight the Israeli prodigy

              In general, "Knapsack-E" was carried at LIMA-2001 ...
              1. +1
                1 February 2015 12: 20
                When they create it then we'll talk, and meanwhile the drones are already in the sky. 14 years have passed since Lima and where is this "satchel"?
                1. 0
                  1 February 2015 12: 25
                  In the sense of "create"? Will they send what they have for disassembly and rebuild it from scratch?
                  1. +1
                    1 February 2015 12: 27
                    In the sense that since the introduction of the Wunderwafer in April 2001, it was not at all hungry 14 years that passed, and the car still did not.
                    1. +1
                      1 February 2015 12: 31
                      Quote: professor
                      but there’s no car.

                      Did Shoigu personally report yesterday?
                      1. 0
                        1 February 2015 12: 34
                        Quote: Spade
                        Did Shoigu personally report yesterday?

                        Is there evidence of its existence? Maybe even someone in the army saw her? wink

                        PS
                        SATCOM drone control seen, and your car?
                      2. +3
                        1 February 2015 12: 49
                        Quote: professor
                        Is there evidence of its existence? Maybe even someone in the army saw her?

                        But I, for example, did not see Israeli nuclear weapons ... Do you have one?

                        EW in the RF Armed Forces is a very closed field, and there are a lot of things that are not shown in the parades.
                      3. +1
                        1 February 2015 13: 43
                        Quote: Spade
                        But I, for example, did not see Israeli nuclear weapons ... Do you have one?

                        It turns out that no.

                        Quote: Spade
                        EW in the RF Armed Forces is a very closed field, and there are a lot of things that are not shown in the parades.

                        Touches conversations like "there is, but very secret and therefore no one knows about it" ...
                      4. +1
                        1 February 2015 14: 43
                        Quote: professor
                        Touches conversations like "there is, but very secret and therefore no one knows about it" ...

                        Why "doesn't know" even if they showed it at the exhibition?
                      5. +2
                        1 February 2015 15: 03
                        Quote: Spade
                        Why "doesn't know" even if they showed it at the exhibition?

                        Spike EsAr also shown at the exhibition. Does this mean that he is already in the army? wink
                      6. 0
                        1 February 2015 15: 08
                        Exactly, I forgot. "Spike SR" does not exist
                      7. 0
                        1 February 2015 15: 23
                        Quote: Spade
                        Exactly, I forgot. "Spike SR" does not exist

                        Exists in exhibition samples, and such techniques are not a threat. When he goes into the series and enters the army then it will be possible to talk about him as a weapon that poses a threat.
                      8. 0
                        1 February 2015 16: 18
                        Yes, no, it's dummies.
                      9. 0
                        1 February 2015 16: 23
                        Quote: Spade
                        Yes, no, it's dummies.

                        This is a concept car. No more.

                      10. 0
                        1 February 2015 16: 35
                        Here I am about ...
                      11. -1
                        1 February 2015 16: 40
                        Quote: Spade
                        Here I am about ...

                        Well, thank God that we agree that these cars do not drive on the roads, and "knapsacks" do not "jam" anyone. And at exhibitions it's really cool, I like to see it myself.
                      12. 0
                        2 February 2015 15: 29
                        It is necessary with the help of [quote = professor] [quote = Lopatov] But, for example, I did not see Israeli nuclear weapons ... Do you have it? [/ Quote]
                        It turns out that no.

                        It is necessary with the help of Kryptons, Calibers, Backfires and RRC with "forts", and for safety reasons, to bring the light "Redoubt-polyments" into line with reality "it turns out that no". With the obligatory drinking of delivery vehicles - Sheriho-3 and especially - 4.
                        A macaque with a nuclear grenade on a gunpowder barrel with a probability of an impact on the Russian Federation is unacceptable.
            2. 0
              1 February 2015 14: 17
              comicadze drones.
              Great. Have you come up with or did it work out?
              1. 0
                1 February 2015 15: 00
                Quote: sivuch
                comicadze drones.
                Great. Have you come up with or did it work out?

                Such drones are in service for a single year. They are created, first blacken, to break through the air defense.
                1. +6
                  1 February 2015 15: 26
                  I, in general, in the course. They are only called kamikaze, i.e. the wind of the gods, if sclerosis does not change. And with the letter O, the name sounds pretty ridiculous.
  10. 3vs
    +1
    1 February 2015 08: 51
    So it’s necessary to develop ammunition capable of generating fragments during an explosion,
    which will cover a whole certain area, square meter, for example,
    then small targets will be hit much more effectively.
    1. +2
      1 February 2015 13: 00
      I wonder what they will fight when they are the size of a fly? what Fly swatter? Only EW.
      1. +1
        1 February 2015 15: 32
        I wonder what they will fight when they are the size of a fly? what fly swatter?


        A hawk from the hawk family, trained by the Kamikaze war eagle program.
    2. -1
      1 February 2015 17: 14
      Better generate brains!
      Khibin - doesn’t tell you anything?
  11. +4
    1 February 2015 09: 06
    The task of small and super small drones is reconnaissance and guidance on the target. Most likely, if the anti-aircraft gunners saw a drone, then this is the last thing they see. Anti-aircraft calculations are the primary goal. But it is necessary to fight this scourge. It is possible that you need to create fighter drones. Well, do not pour the raven from the S-400. But such a crumb can do a lot of trouble.
    1. +7
      1 February 2015 09: 29
      I believe that here the economic component is also important. Suppose a drone costs 500 thousand rubles.
      And the enemy can use them in thousands. Anti-aircraft missile costs, presumably 2mln.rub.,
      that is, like four drones. In the case of massive use of drones, air defense drown ...
      Missiles for all purposes will not be enough, and the country will not have time to launch missiles ...
      Dead end ...
      So, it is necessary to have other means in the structure of air defense to combat ultra-small goals!
      Their cost should be minimal, efficiency-sufficient. And still to be developed
      methodology and equipment for the detection, identification and determination of motion elements
      such purpose, in any conditions! This article outlined a serious problem.
      And, most likely, a set of work is already underway to solve this problem ...
      So, wait a bit longer, see more!
  12. +2
    1 February 2015 09: 27
    From this article it follows that today, the most promising direction is the development of small drones in order to ensure reconnaissance and target designation, since a reliable means of dealing with small drones has not yet been created. It is clear that the development of drones will follow the path of saturation with them, in particular infantry units, up to the level of the detachment, and possibly a single soldier. In this regard, it is very interesting to me whether work is currently underway to create a universal missile system for infantry units, which would allow soldiers to be used to destroy all types of targets, from infantry groups to armored vehicles and fortifications, based on target designation received from drones. A certain analogue of ATGMs, but with the possibility of using, along with its own guidance system, target designation received from drones, other soldiers, and other sources, such manual artillery that allows a soldier to destroy targets outside his direct visibility on the basis of target designations received from external sources, in particular drones and at the same time compact enough to carry one or two soldiers.
  13. +3
    1 February 2015 09: 38
    Well, this flying disaster should communicate with its owners ... transmit video ... coordinates, etc. At the signal and catch. Ideally, decrypt the signal and select the coordinates.
    1. +1
      1 February 2015 11: 15
      Quote: TrofimBel
      Well, this flying disaster should communicate with its owners ... transmit video ... coordinates, etc. At the signal and catch. Ideally, decrypt the signal and select the coordinates.

      He has a satellite channel, a pointed antenna, and whose coordinates will be yours, for example, transmitted for target designation
      1. +3
        1 February 2015 11: 35
        Quote: saag
        He has a satellite channel, a pointed antenna,

        It radiates, which means it can be detected.
      2. +2
        1 February 2015 14: 19
        Do you have a tactical drone?
  14. +3
    1 February 2015 09: 46
    The original source is on the site of Courage, and, in my opinion, in a more detailed version
    http://otvaga2004.ru/armiya-i-vpk/armiya-i-vpk-vzglyad/malorazmernye-bespilotnik

    i/
    Small-sized UAVs - a new problem for air defense
  15. +1
    1 February 2015 10: 09
    In general, it’s interesting - for example, 76 / 100 - mm anti-aircraft guns with a radio fuse for hitting such targets, wouldn’t it be better? Undermining at a distance of 5 meters from the UAV is a very real chance for IMHO to hit the target. It is a pity that such tests were not carried out :(.
    1. 0
      1 February 2015 12: 10
      Well, why? Initially, the Italians took this path (when creating the air defense elements of the near zone), made some progress, but you can’t call such complexes compact and quite mobile. In general, the problems described in the article are somewhat far-fetched and reflect the state of affairs of the late 90s. represents, the detection of light UAVs by mobile units operating autonomously. The solution to the problem was the creation of an automated fire control station for MANPADS (undergoing tests for the Airborne Forces)
      1. +1
        1 February 2015 12: 20
        Quote: Argon
        however, such complexes cannot be called compact and sufficiently mobile.

        Oh?
    2. +3
      1 February 2015 19: 59
      CTABEP
      In general, it’s interesting - for example, 76 / 100 - mm anti-aircraft guns with a radio fuse for hitting such targets, wouldn’t it be better? Undermining at a distance of 5 meters from the UAV is a very real chance for IMHO to hit the target. It is a pity that such tests were not carried out :(.

      To do this, it is necessary in advance, a few minutes before approaching, to detect the UAV. Otherwise, it’s not enough to even charge, not to set the fuse distance on the projectile. The main issue is not destruction, but the detection of UAVs.
  16. ICT
    +6
    1 February 2015 10: 26
    Quote: CTABEP
    Generally interesting - for example, 76 / 100 - mm anti-aircraft guns


    the problem is no longer in defeat, but in detection
  17. 0
    1 February 2015 11: 17
    I believe that in the near future an UAV will receive a response in the form of shrapnel ammunition for an operator with MANPADS or cumulative for some Shilka or the like
    1. +2
      1 February 2015 11: 37
      Quote: saag
      I think in the near future with an UAV an otvetka will arrive

      Hardly. Active suppressors of optics will not allow. Like what is on "Infaune"
      1. +2
        1 February 2015 15: 46
        And if there is a millimeter range radar? It takes up little space, you don’t need much power, but you can see a lot. In addition, there are no optical suppressors for every UAV, except perhaps covering key objects
        1. 0
          1 February 2015 16: 00
          Again ahead.
          But mm radar is not only on the Shell, but also on the Chrysanthemums.
          1. 0
            1 February 2015 16: 22
            A device with a radar is much easier to detect than with optics. Moreover, radar suppression is easier than optics. So don’t stop it, it’s a step back.
            1. +2
              1 February 2015 16: 37
              Quote: Spade
              Moreover, radar suppression is easier than optics

              Suppressing the mm range radar I’ll tell you a non-trivial task, everything depends on the physics of the microwave signal propagation, from 30 GHz it is especially difficult, in addition the jammer itself is a good target, homing even now
        2. 0
          1 February 2015 16: 20
          How small is it?
  18. 0
    1 February 2015 11: 27
    Quote: GrBear
    If the UAV can be captured only within the limits of visual visibility, then only a laser or directional electromagnetic radiation remains. I don’t see another. what

    I wanted to write the same, but I think someone should have already written. good
    I think so! hi
  19. +3
    1 February 2015 11: 30
    Anti-UAV system from JSC "Radiozavod"
    http://zonatex.ru/blog/bot/1946.html
    1. 0
      1 February 2015 11: 54
      1. An interesting little thing on paper.
      2.
      The RTR station detects and detects the control and information reset channels of small-class UAVs (for large and medium UAVs, the complex works as an air defense system).

      With the antenna directed at the satellite, this machine needs to learn how to fly, and there is no gravitap there yet. request
      1. +1
        1 February 2015 11: 57
        Quote: professor
        With the antenna pointing at the satellite, this machine needs to learn how to fly
        1. +2
          1 February 2015 12: 10
          Next An interceptor UAV is aimed at the target area. The method of its influence is suppression of UAV control channels and information reset.

          "Next". You see-"more...", but at the beginning it is necessary" The RTR station detects and directs the direction finding channels of control and dumping of information of a small class UAV. "How does it detect and even more so if the antenna is looking at the satellite?

          1. +1
            1 February 2015 12: 18
            Quote: professor
            How does it detect and even more if it detects if the antenna is looking at the satellite?


            http://www.chishma.ru/antenna/lepestki-diagram.html
            1. 0
              1 February 2015 12: 28
              Series of side lobes of lesser amplitude have long been "self-destructed" by software. This is called digital beamforming, which creates "zeros" in the radiation pattern. Again, the most interesting thing, does your proposed machine exist in hardware?
              1. +2
                1 February 2015 12: 31
                Quote: professor
                have long been "self-destructed" by software

                Ага. laughing
                1. 0
                  1 February 2015 12: 33
                  Honest pioneer. Read at your leisure about Satcom security.

                  PS
                  You have to pay tribute to the German anti-tank systems. So I did not wait for an answer. hi
                  1. +1
                    1 February 2015 12: 45
                    Quote: professor
                    Honest pioneer.

                    An honest pioneer in statements that contradict the basic tenets of physics is clearly not enough.


                    Quote: professor
                    You have to pay tribute to the German anti-tank systems. So I did not wait for an answer

                    Everything is written in the article, should I quote it? And about optical recognition, and the "virtual gimbal" and about the rangefinder on the PU, used to program the fuse, and about the fact that the grenade launcher is used for launching ...
                    1. 0
                      1 February 2015 13: 47
                      Quote: Spade
                      An honest pioneer in statements that contradict the basic tenets of physics is clearly not enough.

                      I really didn’t know that the Tomahawk communication system contradicts the laws of physics. Well, to hell with her.

                      Quote: Spade
                      Everything is written in the article, should I quote it? And about optical recognition, and the "virtual gimbal" and about the rangefinder on the PU, used to program the fuse, and about the fact that the grenade launcher is used for launching ...

                      That is, "optical recognition" and "virtual gimbal" make this rocket much cheaper, and an additional rangefinder on the launcher, which does not have a spike on the launcher, makes it even cheaper. Thanks for the enlightenment. Now everything is clear. wassat
                      1. +1
                        1 February 2015 14: 50
                        Quote: professor
                        I really didn’t know that the Tomahawk communication system contradicts the laws of physics.

                        And you can talk about the "Tomahawk communication system" in more detail. And then I always thought that they only work for the reception ...

                        Quote: professor
                        and an additional range finder on the PU which is not on the PU spike makes it even cheaper.

                        A cheap guided missile at an RPG launcher ... Depending on the type of target and tactical situation with one launcher, you can use both it and an unguided missile ...
                        Is it cooler than a "spike"? Certainly. Is it cheaper than spike? Again, yes ...

                        I said, everything is written in the article, enough to read ...
                      2. -1
                        1 February 2015 15: 24
                        Quote: Spade
                        And you can talk about the "Tomahawk communication system" in more detail. And then I always thought that they only work for the reception ...

                        Tomogawk RGM / UGM-109E (Block IV TLAM-E) - Two-way Radio Communication
                        http://www.dod.mil/pubs/foi/logistics_material_readiness/acq_bud_fin/SARs/14-F-0

                        402_DOC_72_TACTOMDecember2013SAR.PDF


                        Quote: Spade
                        A cheap guided missile at an RPG launcher ... Depending on the type of target and tactical situation with one launcher, you can use both it and an unguided missile ...

                        No, it is not possible. PU disposable same as in SR. Used and threw away, then it is not subject to application. The cost of both is approximately the same.

                        Quote: Spade
                        Is it cooler than a "spike"? Certainly.

                        What's cooler? Declared range? Yes. The rest is not sure.

                        Quote: Spade
                        Is it cheaper than a "spike"? Again, yes ...

                        WHY? Because they added a long range meter that costs money? Or do you think a mechanical gimbal is very expensive? Pliz pliz this moment. It is very interesting why Spike is suddenly cheaper.

                        Quote: Spade
                        I said, everything is written in the article, enough to read ...

                        Moved out? wink
                      3. +1
                        1 February 2015 16: 32
                        Quote: professor
                        Tomogawk RGM / UGM-109E (Block IV TLAM-E) - Two-way Radio Communication

                        As far as I know, only receivers, ZhPS and command. So that the rocket is not "fired"


                        Quote: professor
                        What's cooler? Declared range? Yes. The rest is not sure.

                        Cheapness and versatility.

                        Quote: professor
                        WHY? Because they added a long range meter that costs money?

                        Exactly! And not only a range finder, but also a ballistic computer. And also a system that determines the characteristics of a moving target.

                        Fir-trees, it's just ... An unguided missile is cheaper than a third-generation missile at any rate. Two shots unguided instead of SD and the rangefinder paid off. Three more shots and the whole launcher paid off
                      4. 0
                        1 February 2015 20: 15
                        Quote: Spade
                        As far as I know, only receivers, ZhPS and command. So that the rocket is not "fired"

                        A bi-directional communication line (and there it is exactly like that) directed strictly at the satellite does not fire a missile. This is the whole point.


                        Quote: Spade
                        Cheapness and versatility.

                        Persuaded, give your data on cost and versatility.

                        Quote: Spade
                        Exactly! And not only a range finder, but also a ballistic computer. And also a system that determines the characteristics of a moving target.

                        And does that make it cheaper? That is, the lack of a rangefinder makes Spike more expensive? However... request
                        By the way, do not enlighten why there is a range finder and why does Spike not have it?

                        Quote: Spade
                        Fir-trees, it's just ... An unguided missile is cheaper than a third-generation missile at any rate. Two shots unguided instead of SD and the rangefinder paid off. Three more shots and the whole launcher paid off

                        I didn’t get it. This is where the unguided rocket? "The Enforcer / KFK missile is equipped with an optoelectronic seeker capable of memorizing a target and aiming at it." The same stands on Spike. Why a rangefinder? wink

                        Okay. I will not litter this branch. There will be thoughts about the long-range, come to the original branch, share your thoughts.
              2. Lenivets
                +1
                1 February 2015 21: 07
                No software can completely suppress the side lobes, read less science fiction.
          2. +1
            1 February 2015 12: 45
            Predator is large for a small UAV
            1. +3
              1 February 2015 12: 50
              Yes, they will bring him down according to the same rules as ordinary aircraft.
          3. 0
            1 February 2015 13: 52
            Take any satellite signal repeater to C and Ku ranges, position it above the battle zone and send a signal to it from the jester generator and your problem with the UAV is solved ...
            1. +1
              1 February 2015 15: 54
              Quote: IAlex
              Take any satellite signal repeater to C and Ku ranges, position it above the battle zone and send a signal to it from the jester generator and your problem with the UAV is solved.

              Take an interest in what level of a signal from a satellite on the earth, the microwave signal drops strongly with distance
      2. +1
        1 February 2015 13: 40
        I saw this crap in iron about 7 years ago at the exhibition, but it looked different ...
      3. The comment was deleted.
      4. Lenivets
        0
        1 February 2015 21: 05
        If the connection is two-way (not autonomous), then he will not need to fly.
  20. +2
    1 February 2015 12: 00
    A very deep article by professionals. But if not impossible with a rocket and a cannon, it is necessary for the electronic warfare to press the control channel. The device is not independent in flight.
    1. +2
      1 February 2015 12: 04
      You can use a gun. But not ours. Google C-RAM systems. If you can shoot down a flying 81-mm mortar mine, then some kind of drone can be attached even more so.

      By the way, the Germans were able to use 155-mm guns as a C-RAM system. What is hinting ...
  21. +2
    1 February 2015 12: 16
    The device is small. So the mass is small. Therefore, the heat capacity is also small. Hence, a laser or a small-wave "gun" (the same locator, with a "cauterization" effect) is the very application.

    The "Faraday cage" does not "rule" because the thick one weighs a lot, and the thin one - in the "microwave" - ​​will burn "for a sweet soul." Who does not believe - put the foil in the same microwave. Fireworks are guaranteed. In addition, the "cage" will greatly increase the reflectivity - the foe will be better seen on the locator.

    And there is no need to look for "small-sized" ones. It is enough to scan "dangerous areas" with a laser beam, or with focused microwaves, like the scanning of ancient televisions, "blindly". According to the principle - "who did not hide - I am not to blame."

    The only negative is that the birds are sorry ...
    1. +1
      1 February 2015 12: 21
      Quote: VSkilled
      The "Faraday cage" does not "rule" because the thick one weighs a lot, and the thin one - in the "microwave" - ​​will burn "for a sweet soul." Who does not believe - put the foil in the same microwave. Fireworks are guaranteed. In addition, the "cage" will greatly increase the reflectivity - the foe will be better seen on the locator.

      Shield the equipment, not the entire drone.
      1. +4
        1 February 2015 12: 27
        Quote: professor
        Shield the equipment, not the entire drone.

        laughing That's just the drone's all-equipment. For example, the motor windings, as well as the internal combustion engine ignition system, must also be protected from microwave radiation.
      2. +2
        1 February 2015 12: 49
        A "cage" is a closed loop. In the case of a decent power of the "microwave", currents will run along this circuit with the release of "Joule heat". "At the limit" - until it melts or even evaporates. The equipment will overheat.

        The device is "small-sized". There is quite a chance to "fry" it. Only, here - the birds - sorry ...
        1. 0
          1 February 2015 13: 48
          Quote: VSkilled
          In the case of a decent power "microwave

          That's it. How will such an energy density be achieved?
          1. +5
            1 February 2015 14: 18
            Duc, have you heard anything about the "synthetic aperture"?

            The abbreviation "AFAR" - no vague images in a weakening memory - does not evoke, no?
    2. +1
      1 February 2015 13: 27
      Something I doubt that you can make the turret turn at such a small angle, for example, to destroy an object of 30 cm at a distance of 15 km ...
  22. 0
    1 February 2015 13: 25
    I personally think that over time they will most likely be used to combat small drones, the same small patrol drones with a machine gun and guided bullets, for me the most logical and cheapest option ...
    1. +1
      1 February 2015 15: 56
      I personally think that over time they will most likely be used to combat small drones, the same small patrol drones with a machine gun and guided bullets, for me the most logical and cheapest option ...




      1. wanderer_032
        +1
        1 February 2015 20: 23
        You can, as an option, make a lot of cheap disposable UAVs that can carry an explosive charge and fly up to the enemy’s mini-UAV to hit him with fragments.
        It is possible, as well as a variant based on a UAV of the type of a copter, to place a directional control unit and put a sort of air mine obstacle from such copters at different heights.
        Or on stratospheric balloons and balloons, to put such barriers, also as an option.
        On the aerostat cable, it is possible to place VU or PU cartridges for protective ammunition of systems operating on the KAZ principle on tanks.

        After all, balloons were used in air defense systems during the Second World War, if you apply a little reasoning and some modern technologies, then balloons can be effectively used today as an air defense system.

        Barrage balloons are special balloons used to damage aircraft in a collision with ropes, shells or explosive charges suspended on ropes. During World War II, balloons were widely used to protect cities, industrial areas, naval bases and other objects from air attacks. The presence of barrage balloons in the air defense system forced enemy aircraft to fly at high altitudes and made it difficult to aim bombing from a dive.
        https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C7%E0%E3%F0%E0%E4%E8%F2%E5%EB%FC%ED%FB%E9_%E0%FD%
        F0%EE%F1%F2%E0%F2

  23. +1
    1 February 2015 13: 27
    Luhansk has a Yak-52, a sports 2-seater, if you put a machine gunner in the back, you can shoot down large UAVs, and chop small things with a screw! This is from the category and "no fish and pike cancer!" smile
    1. 0
      1 February 2015 15: 57
      Quote: Artyom
      if you put a machine gunner behind, you can shoot down large UAVs,

      from such a distance and the needle can fly
      1. 0
        1 February 2015 18: 45
        what are the needles over Donetsk? And the thermal footprint is not the same as that of a jet engine!
    2. ICT
      0
      1 February 2015 21: 49
      Quote: Artyom
      This is from the category and "no fish and pike cancer!"


      this is from a different category "without a bird and a nightingale."
  24. +1
    1 February 2015 13: 32
    • low vulnerability of the structures of the bearing surfaces from the fire impact of air defense systems;
    • a fairly wide range of flight speed (10 – 30 m / s);
    Yeah. Armored UAV blocs from CARBIDOTITANAKEVLAROAMMONIUM - with a thickness of 0.5 mm provide resistance to 152 mm OFS with a direct hit laughing
    A wide range of speeds - this is from 300 to 3000 km per hour and not 10-30 m / s; this is 10–20 m / s for a tank .... hi
    In general, the author of the article somewhat exaggerates ...
  25. Owl
    +1
    1 February 2015 14: 06
    It turns out: the ammunition needed for the 100 mm BMP-3 cannon (BMD-4) having the ability to set up remote detonation on a range machine determined with the help of a laser rangefinder, with a circular defeat of the finished slaughter elements. But there is a danger of defeating its personnel and equipment during the shelling of a UAV over its positions.
    1. 0
      1 February 2015 14: 55
      Difficult, expensive, uncommon. Easier to saturate troops with "Cornets"
      1. Owl
        0
        8 February 2015 10: 30
        I fired an ATGM, of course not a Kornet, my soldiers fired a Fagot, but I watched the rocket go in a spiral, constantly compensating for the weight (pitch) and sideways, while rotating for stability, deviation from a straight line: the ATGM installation - target, about 1 meter. With such deviations, counting on a direct hit into a small-sized object is reckless. Even anti-aircraft artillery shells had a remote detonation, for sure destruction of an air target, this is at the beginning of the twentieth century.
  26. +1
    1 February 2015 14: 32
    - Too shy to ask ... What are the operational tolerances of small and medium UAVs? Wind speed, temperature and dust, light, precipitation ...?
  27. Kuranov V.
    0
    1 February 2015 14: 47
    I do not see problems with UAV damage at current detection distances. From machine guns and rifles to carte shells.
    Detection ... Raise the helicopter / light aircraft / UAV (!) To barrage with radar and equipment in the infrared and RTR - and they will be clearly visible.
    1. +3
      1 February 2015 15: 00
      The problem is more likely with detection and coordination. the logic, in my amateurish mind, there should be such-someone discovered (no matter who -Assembly, Harmony or visual detection) -the whole platoon fired. And this, in turn, implies the presence of modern ACS.
  28. +4
    1 February 2015 15: 15
    If we ignore the various exotics such as beam weapons and future "fighter drones", then the existing military air defense systems for drones work either by or at a cost. On firing "Pantsir" with a cannon channel at the UAV, it worked unsuccessfully, it was necessary to finish firing missiles. In a real raid on all sorts of flying "model constructors" of missiles, you will not be enough. Moreover, at the moment it is impossible to select such targets by the degree of threat, as by aircraft.
    But there is already a solution that does not require the development of a new class of air defense weapons, but involving the refinement of existing ones for improved quality. This is the so-called C-RAM systems (Counter Rockets, Artillery and Mortar - counteraction against rocket-artillery and mortar shelling), in particular MANTIS (Praying Mantis), which, as stated, can work on targets with ESR 0,01 square meters. at distances up to 20km. The artillery system, but its peculiarity is contained in a high-resolution radar and programmed with high accuracy of the time of undermining shells (correction is made at the time of exit from the barrel). This allows you to create a very high density of damaging elements in the target zone (mine, projectile, UAV).
    More details, for example, here: http://www.bratishka.ru/archiv/2013/01/2013_1_3.php
    That is, oddly enough, this is a "return" to cannon air defense artillery with an adjustable warhead detonation timer, only at a new level. Our military-industrial complex is quite capable of such a refinement.
  29. +4
    1 February 2015 15: 41
    Not so much when discussing a similar topic, I wrote about the need to create special modules to combat small UAVs for our air defense systems. The most interesting thing is that even we found opponents of similar systems.
    There is an interesting and informative article in the public domain how UAV detection is carried out.
    http://bankpatentov.ru/node/561899
    Do not forget the smaller the size of the UAV, the less its resource. As for the defeat, then, as I think, two directions are more suitable here.
    The first is microwave radiation. There is an example, this is the "shuttle" irradiation over Lake Balkhash. How many hysterical squeals from orbit then. And that's 20% power. Add our power then and the mattress would remain in orbit forever.
    The second use of small missiles with an EMP warhead. When the azimuth of the target and range is known, then it remains to deliver a gift. Accurate hit and high power are not required here. Do not damage your radar, and the electronic trifle will die for sure.
    A lot has been said about UAV shielding. There are very strict weight restrictions. A screen in the form of a mesh or foil, if it helps, then in borderline situations.
    It is very good that this topic has begun to be developed, so a technical solution will be.
    1. Kuranov V.
      +1
      1 February 2015 15: 48
      plusan for electromagnetic ammunition as a warhead for missiles
  30. 0
    1 February 2015 16: 00
    hi I wonder how the electronics of the UAV (which dofiga in it) will react to a "shot" from the rangefinder? From the same 1D11? recourse
    1. ICT
      0
      1 February 2015 16: 53
      Here are the boys of China
  31. 0
    1 February 2015 17: 18
    Drones are already quite reliably shot down with ordinary small arms with so-called "smart" bullets, that is, with self-guidance. So far, only prototypes. In general, the most promising means of countering drones are the so-called "drone mines" that is, a drone detection and tracking station is installed somewhere, it should be small and disguised as the surrounding landscape. The station controls launch containers for various purposes scattered across the territory, also disguised as a landscape, and gives a command to shoot a striking element or a small-sized rocket when the drone flies in its reach. There can be many such stations and they can be combined into groups and entire clusters, creating vast territories protected from drones. There are also "exotic" methods of dealing with drones - spraying slowly settling graphite dust or other substance into the air, which disables the engine, control system or reduces their service life.
  32. The comment was deleted.
    1. Mig29_Fulcrum
      0
      1 February 2015 18: 38
      "Fill" the satellite in orbit ...
    2. The comment was deleted.
  33. +1
    1 February 2015 19: 04
    It seems to me that the simplest solution is simply to disable UAV optics using a laser! I think a few watts is enough to burn out the matrix!
  34. 0
    1 February 2015 19: 12
    Wedge by wedge. And all the problems. The only question is the number of antidrons per one drone.
  35. 0
    1 February 2015 19: 43
    MANPADS are needed with a homing head over the radio control channel of the UAV.
  36. +1
    1 February 2015 19: 58
    Is it possible to assign the task of destroying drones to UAVs? Inspired by the battle of controlled aircraft models seen in Soviet times.
    1. ICT
      +2
      1 February 2015 22: 01
      Quote: Sergey TT
      Is it possible to assign the task of destroying drones to UAVs?


      given, distance to the target 1000m, flight height 600m, masking color

      he sees you, you (mortar crew, tank platoon com. guard post) he is not there, that’s the problem
  37. The comment was deleted.
  38. +1
    2 February 2015 09: 12
    About the "uselessness" of electronic warfare and autopilot:
    If the control signal is lost, more or less "smart" drones include "auto return to the starting point". But they use GPS signals. There is no "inertial" control system with gyroscopes on small UAVs, it is unlikely to fit there. A question for connoisseurs: where will the device "return" if there are no current coordinates? ..
    1. 0
      2 February 2015 09: 27
      Quote: Dragon-y
      There is no inertial "control system with gyroscopes on small UAVs; it is unlikely to fit in there."

      A gyroscope climbed into the iPhone, but it won’t fit into a drone ...
      1. 0
        2 February 2015 11: 08
        Quote: professor
        A gyroscope climbed into the iPhone, but it won’t fit into a drone ...

        Oh Oleg, a hundred years in the afternoon wink Well, what’s there about the American gun in Ukraine. Is there anything to hide? wassat
        1. 0
          2 February 2015 11: 15
          Quote: Alexander Romanov
          Oh Oleg, one hundred years at lunch. Well, what about the American gun in Ukraine? What is there to hide?

          Shaw, is there already such a thing there?
          The United States may begin to deliver weapons to Ukraine, the press says
          1. 0
            2 February 2015 11: 48
            Quote: professor

            Shaw, is there already such a thing there?

            And THAT laughing Glasses, monocle, binoculars, a microscope? Read and enjoy wink
            http://www.kp.ru/daily/26311/3190625/
            1. +1
              2 February 2015 11: 54
              Quote: Alexander Romanov
              And THAN Glasses, monocle, binoculars, a microscope? Read and enjoy

              I read the original American documents. Not a word about weapons. I read on, I got to the word "junta", there is no point in reading further. negative
              1. 0
                2 February 2015 12: 23
                Quote: professor

                I read the original American documents.

                And what does the American have to do with it, you are Ukrainian readers. The most interesting thing is there.
                Quote: professor
                Not a word about weapons

                You didn’t leaf through.
                Quote: professor
                came to the word "junta", there is no point in reading further.

                Stop at the site of the cybercircut himself, there without the word junta.
  39. ICT
    0
    2 February 2015 09: 41
    Quote: professor
    climbed a gyroscope


    the gyroscope is a stabilization system, and the orientation system in models is at least only via GPS

    1. 0
      2 February 2015 09: 44
      Quote: TIT
      the gyroscope is a stabilization system, and the orientation system in models is at least only via GPS

      And who told you that? The system there is INS / GPS.
    2. ICT
      0
      2 February 2015 09: 46
      Flight Mode for Multiwii:
      • Basic modes
      - Acro (only a gyroscope is used to stabilize)
      - Full stabilization (gyroscope and accelerometer are used for stabilization)
      - Altitude Hold
      - Course retention
      • Additional modes
      - KeaFree (the mode when you turn it on does not matter where the copter is in front of \ back \ left \ right about you, you will never get confused if you let the copter go far and lose its orientation, this mode will help you return the copter)
      - GPS position holding (GPS receiver connection required)
      - Return home (requires GPS receiver connection)

      The controller has a modern set of sensors, InvenSense MPU6050 which has a single-crystal MEMS gyroscope / accelerometer. There is also an 3-axis magnetometer and a barometer with 0,01 resolution on the board. millibar (measurement error approx. 10cm)

      Ever wanted to have GPS features? Now you can do this just by attaching the 10 Hz GPS module (coming soon).

  40. ICT
    0
    2 February 2015 09: 59
    Quote: professor
    The system there is INS / GPS.


    those. is it included in MISS or is it just a gyroscope without mechanics wink
    1. 0
      2 February 2015 11: 05
      Quote: TIT
      those. is it included in MISS or is it just a gyroscope without mechanics

      I don't know what the "MISS system" is.
      1. ICT
        0
        2 February 2015 11: 55
        Quote: professor
        "system


        Well, all the same, you know something, as an example of “MIS-45” (small-sized inertial system)

        how long can your system determine its position, without gps signals
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. ICT
          +1
          2 February 2015 12: 00
          set NK-45
        3. 0
          2 February 2015 12: 10
          Quote: TIT
          Well, all the same, you know something, as an example of “MIS-45” (small-sized inertial system)

          how long can your system determine its position, without gps signals

          What can this system I do not know. The first time I heard about it, but the INS / GPS system is able to provide sufficient navigation accuracy so that in case of loss of GPS signals, the drone could return to base.
          1. ICT
            0
            2 February 2015 12: 47
            Tamam Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) unveils TNL-16GI's new INS / GPS air navigation system based on laser gyro technology.

            The TNL-16GI system is a new member of the TAMAM TNL-16 inertial air navigation system family, based only on proven equipment and technologies. Thousands of TNL-16 systems have already been delivered to the end user.


            IT
            1. 0
              2 February 2015 13: 27
              Quote: TIT
              IT

              No. This one is for big devices. However, for comparison, its inertial positioning accuracy is only 0.8 miles per hour of flight.
              TNL-16GI Advanced Airborne INS / GPS Navigation System
  41. The comment was deleted.
  42. 0
    2 February 2015 15: 22
    Grid. We will shoot them down with a net. wassat
  43. 0
    2 February 2015 15: 45
    Quote: gladcu2
    Yes, the range is limited to the line of sight.

    There, something about 2.5 km if I am not mistaken, of course under good weather conditions.
  44. 0
    3 February 2015 14: 14
    I almost missed an interesting topic. But still I didn’t miss it, and therefore I’ll put in my five cents.
    Let's start with the fact that UAVs can be easily detected by modern ground-based radar systems. An example is the Israeli Green Rock radar "GreenRock" http://i-hls.com/2014/06/new-israeli-system-detects-low-flying-drones/
    UAVs are also quite possible to detect using radars placed on airplanes, helicopters and balloons. Naturally, such radars should be capable of detecting small targets against the background of the earth’s surface, which is no longer a big problem
    Further. Any UAV from time to time gets in touch with ground-based KP i.e. emits radio signals. And any radio-emitting object can be detected using direction finders and its coordinates can be calculated using triangulation methods.
    Having solved the problem of detecting the measurement of UAV coordinates, it is possible to destroy it with available active means. It is hardly worth counting on the greater efficiency of using electronic warfare systems against UAVs, as UAVs are increasingly switching to autonomous control mode in which the exchange of UAV data with the outside world is minimized.
  45. 0
    3 February 2015 14: 17
    By the way, the problem of protection against UAVs worries "minke whales" too. http://www.defenseone.com/technology/2014/11/military-wants-new-technologies-fig
    ht-drones / 98387 /? oref = search_drones