When did the battleships disappear?

61


By the time of the write-off of the magnificent four "Iow" (1990-92), the era of capital ships had long been gathering dust on the shelves of archives and stands of naval museums. The last artillery battle between armored monsters was 25 October 1944, when the Japanese "Fuso" came under heavy fire from five American battleships in the Surigao Strait. In European waters, everything ended even earlier, in the winter of 1943, when the German Scharnhorst was sunk in the battle of m. Nordkapp. Subsequently, the capital ships were still involved in the shelling of the coast, but they never again engaged in fights with each other.

The end of the era of battleships was at the end of World War II, when it became clear that large guns lose in efficiency aviation and underwater the fleet. Unable to withstand the competition, the huge expensive battleships gradually disappeared from the slipways, and instead appeared ... Oops! And then comes the dumb scene.

In the first post-war decade, the fleet of the richest state (USA) was replenished with just a couple of dozen new destroyers. Just nothing against the background of the pace of the previous decade, when the Yankees built several hundred warships a year! Four half-finished battleships were removed from the stocks. Dozens of cruisers under construction were scrapped. The construction of the United States supercarrier was stopped 5 days after it was bookmarked.

The natural result of the reduction of the military budget associated with the cessation of hostilities.

Germany and Japan were defeated by the fleet. The once-powerful players dropped out of the game, having lost their naval ambitions for a long time.

Cheerful Italians were in deep depression. At the end of the war, the “macarons” were allowed to keep a couple of rusty dreadnoughts, but mercy to the vanquished looked like a cruel mockery. All the more or less modern ships the winners took for themselves (the notorious l / c "Giulio Cesare", which later became the "Novorossiysk").



The old British lion fell from the world pedestal, giving way to new superpowers. The last battleship of Her Majesty "Vanguard" was laid in 1941 and brought to the mind only by 1946, using towers and tools that have been rusting in the warehouse since 1920. Sad and funny.

The French fleet looked surprisingly good (against the background of what the French had to endure). After the war, a pair of restored battleships (of the "Richelieu" type) returned to service, which served for 20 years, occasionally participating in colonial wars around the world. However, the construction of new ships of this class and size was out of the question.

When did the battleships disappear?

Battleship "Jean Bar". Beginning of 60's

The only one who launched the mass construction of warships after the war was the Soviet Union. What for? After years it is difficult to answer. The ships were built according to the deliberately outdated projects of the end of 30's, with archaic mechanisms and weapons. They categorically could not resist the "likely enemy" naval forces.

The official idea was to maintain the shipbuilding industry and speed up the fleet's saturation with ships of the main classes. Anyway, the results were impressive: from 1948 to 1953. The fleet was replenished with 5 light cruisers and 70 th destroyers (type 30-bis). Over the next few years, 14 cruisers of the 68-bis Ave, which became the last artillery ships in the world, entered service. And, of course, what a real fleet could do without battleships!

The plans indicated the construction of three capital ships of the type "Stalingrad" (heavy cruiser project 82). The latter were high-speed battle cruisers with nine guns of caliber 305 mm and a non-cruising displacement of 43 thousand tons. On the technical side, they approached in size, but they were significantly inferior to foreign military companies during the war years in terms of protection and armament. In fact, “Stalingrad” became outdated even 10 years before its foundation.


Model TKR "Stalingrad"

Of course, from the standpoint of our days, everything seems different. Starting from the middle of the century, the US Navy began a mass withdrawal from the fleet of representatives of the era of "cannons and armor" with their subsequent replacement by small armored ships with rocket weapons. Our lag could turn into an advantage!

What could have happened if by the beginning of the 1980's, somewhere in the reserve parking lot in the Strelok Bay, there would have been a rusted armored frame of the battle cruiser "Stalingrad"? After upgrading with the installation of modern anti-aircraft systems and missiles, such a "monster" could pose a real threat to the naval forces of NATO countries.


Total Modernization of the Iowa Battleship, 1984 Year


Its thick skin was not penetrated by any of the existing anti-ship missiles. The use of large-caliber bombs on him required first the suppression of his air defenses — a matter that is extremely long and costly. At the same time, its own shock potential had no analogues in the world. Modern rocket weapons, enhanced by the power of long-range automated "twelve-inch"! Strikes on naval and ground targets, fire support for airborne troops, provision of air defense squadrons at sea crossings, flagship and diplomatic functions ...

But pretty sweet dreams! At that time, nuclear submarines began to intervene on combat duty. The USSR Navy required completely different ships to adequately counter the threats of the new time .. Numerous BOD, helicopter carriers and its own nuclear submarine fleet, not inferior in number to the "likely enemy" nuclear submarine ... In the spring of 1953, immediately after I.V.'s death Stalin, the construction of the heavy cruiser "Stalingrad" was interrupted while the 18% was ready. Two other corps, which were in even lower degree of readiness, suffered a similar fate.

The outcome. When did the battleships disappear?

A common point of view ("capital ships are outdated by the middle of the 40-s.") Is not true! This is indicated by the fact termination of the construction of ships of all major classes with the end of the Second World War. Single destroyers and submarines of the experimental series - and not a single warship larger than 5 thousand tons!

Of course! It was obvious from the very beginning of our conversation. Military aircraft piston aircraft could not pose a serious threat to armored monsters. Easy victories in Taranto and Pearl Harbor is not an argument. In both cases, the fleet was caught at anchor by surprise, becoming the victim of careless command bases. In real conditions, for the sinking of one battleship it was required to fly into the air hundreds of combat aircraft or use ammunition of monstrous power.

227 bombers, fighters and torpedo bombers of the US Navy took part in the sinking of the Yamato, and 53 of the aircraft that went off lost their way and were unable to reach the target.

During the war years, the secured parking lot of Tirpitz underwent an unsuccessful attack on 700 airplanes, until the turn reached the Tollboy 5-ton bombs. The German battleship alone by its presence bound all the forces of the British fleet in the North Atlantic.

"As long as the Tirpitz exists, the British fleet must constantly have two battleships of the King George V type available. In the waters of the metropolis there must constantly be three ships of this type - in case one of them is being repaired."

- First Sea Lord Admiral Dudley Pound

"It creates a general fear and threat at all points at once."

- W. Churchill

Musassi - hundreds of sorties of deck aircraft, incessant attacks within five hours.

Italian "Roma" - destroyed by the guided bomb "Fritz-X". Armor-piercing guided munitions of a special design (weight over one ton), dropped on the target from a height of six kilometers. Only two-or four-engine coast-based bombers could use such weapons, moreover, only on limited-size theater and under conditions of weak opposition from the enemy.

Barham and Royal Oak are not an argument. Outdated superdreadnoughts of the First World War, whose design was devoid of serious anti-torpedo protection.

"Prince of Wales" - an exception, only confirmed the rule. The propeller shaft bent by the explosion turned a huge hole in the hull. Three more torpedoes completed the job. Moreover, the "Prince of Wales" possessed, perhaps, the worst air defense system among all the WWII battleships.

Here such "obsolete" were the battleships that they could with one presence change the situation on the theater of operations and withstand close explosions of nuclear weapons (tests on the Bikini station, 1947). Their security was so high that a charred ship with an irradiated crew still had the opportunity to continue to perform the task or to return to the base under its own power. Those. continued to pose a threat to the enemy!


Combat shock group led by battleship battleship New Jersey, 1986 year. As a part of the escort - nuclear-powered missile cruiser "Long Beach"




It is worth noting that even in the epoch of its heyday, capital ships were a rarity rather than a common occurrence. Only a few ships of this class in the fleets of the seven most developed countries. The combat core of the fleet. The strongest units in the theater of operations. As in chess, there are rarely more than two queens on one board.

So why be surprised if, with the end of the war and the subsequent cuts in the military budget, only the 4 of the most "fresh" battleship remained in the US Navy? On the other side of the ocean, the proportions have not changed. The Soviet fleet received a trophy "Novorossiysk" and made plans to build three "Stalingrad".

Finale of the play

The end of the capital ship era was in the middle of the 50s. With the advent of jet engines, aviation speeds increased 1,5-2 times, while air defense weapons remained at the level of the mid-40-x. (anti-aircraft guns guided by radar data. At best, shells with a radar fuse). Worse, the combat load of the usual A-4 Skyhawk attack aircraft exceeded the weight of the “Flying Fortress” combat load. The flight range and capabilities of the aviation sighting systems also increased significantly. As a result, one Skyhock squadron could joke to sink any cruiser and guaranteed to disable the battleship, destroying all the superstructures and causing leaks in the underwater hull with a hail of free-falling bombs.

An even more terrible threat awaited the battleship from under the water. Nuclear submarines that could not ascend to go around the Earth. They got the main role in the modern naval battle.

The overall decline in the strategic role of the fleet in the era of ballistic missiles and thermonuclear weapons. Convulsive preparations for the "third world", after which no one leaves alive. The rapid evolution of rocket weapons: the size of radar and missiles were incomparable with the mass-dimensions of the towers and guns of battleships. Not surprisingly, instead of heavy cruisers and battleships, small armored cruisers and destroyers appeared, whose dimensions rarely exceeded 8-9 thousand tons.


Missile cruiser "Grozny" (1961 g.). Despite its fierce appearance, the ship’s total displacement barely exceeded 5 thousand tons



Atomic missile cruiser "Bainbridge" (1961 g.), Full in / and 9 thousand tons


Prospects

A complete rejection of armor and the neglect of passive protection measures gave a tragicomic result: modern ships began to die from being hit by unexploded rockets and completely fail from one bag of improvised explosives.

Isolated cases could not change the whole paradigm of the modern fleet, however, the idea of ​​a highly protected warship still hovers in the minds of designers, whose nose is not a bad thing to smash a bottle of champagne. He can be sent to the shores of any enemy, where his guns and rockets will sweep away everything in his path.


"Rocket battleship" - heavy nuclear missile cruiser "Peter the Great". 26 thousand tons and 300 with more missiles on board. Local reservation of especially important compartments (armor thickness up to 100 mm!)


The low-profile USS Zumwalt (DDG-1000) missile-artillery battleship. 14,5 KT 80 rocket launchers and two ultra-long-range 155 caliber guns. Local booking is available in the CWP area


The concept of a highly-protected rocket-artillery ship, most worked out today, from specialists from the department of reforming the armed forces of the US Department of Defense. Project Capital Surface Warship (CSW, 2007 year)
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  1. Fedya
    +2
    20 January 2015 06: 46
    Now, with missile boats, battleships will be a big target for them!
    1. 0
      20 January 2015 15: 32
      Ha ha, how do they break armor?
      1. 0
        22 January 2015 20: 40
        new RPGs pierce up to 1000 mm
    2. +6
      20 January 2015 17: 36
      1. How so ineptly disposed of the aircraft carrier "Graf Zeppelin", and German engineers who could transfer technology.
      2. "Julius Caesar" was lost right at the place of permanent deployment!

      Conclusion - without adequate goals, the fleet will always be a stepson!
      1. avt
        +3
        20 January 2015 18: 07
        Quote: Civil
        1. How so ineptly disposed of the aircraft carrier "Graf Zeppelin", and German engineers who could transfer technology.

        No. And in fact, how and why exactly, mediocre "they were disposed of ???" Before saying so, they would ask in what state he and the conversion from "Seydlitz" into an aircraft carrier went to the USSR. Then you will surely know that in spite of the technical condition, they wanted to use it as a training one. BUT - at the request of the allies, it was destroyed, there was such a tripartite commission, which the "all-powerful and all-powerful" Stalin could not ignore.
        Quote: Civil
        2. "Julius Caesar" was lost right at the place of permanent deployment!

        Lost, but where does his tragic catastrophe and such one from her
        Quote: Civil
        Conclusion - without adequate goals, the fleet will always be a stepson!
        Well, what is the causal relationship ?? request Exactly between the disaster of "Novorossiysk" and "adequate goals" ??? Because of which the fleet suddenly becomes a stepson. If only there were ,, adequate goals ",, Novorossiysk" would not have died from the explosion ??? Or maybe all the same it is necessary to competently prepare the senior command personnel not only to fight but also to lead in the fight for survivability? The crew in that disaster acted courageously and selflessly in the fight for the ship, BUT leadership in the person of a specific admiral and senior officials of his team was given, to put it mildly, not adequate to the developing situation. Yes, at least they gave the command to leave the ship in time! So the blame is entirely on the command, as in the case of "Komsomolets", when they were released on a campaign with a crew whose credit was stretched to "satisfactory" and with a boat under the command of Britanov, which was generally pushed out on alert duty, and the opera on his report on the condition of the boat simply said - "It's none of your business!"
      2. AlexP47
        +3
        20 January 2015 21: 10
        The chances of completing the "Graf" in the war-torn USSR were practically zero: the ship was in a low degree of readiness. In addition, the Germans blew up turbines, generators and an aircraft lift during the retreat. The architecture of the ship was rather archaic, it looked like an alien from the 20-30s, it was a ship for piston aircraft. The era of jet aircraft was approaching: it would be fun to bring this trophy of dubious value into operation by the mid-50s. Not to mention the issues of operation, spare parts ..
      3. AlexP47
        0
        20 January 2015 21: 10
        The chances of completing the "Graf" in the war-torn USSR were practically zero: the ship was in a low degree of readiness. In addition, the Germans blew up turbines, generators and an aircraft lift during the retreat. The architecture of the ship was rather archaic, it looked like an alien from the 20-30s, it was a ship for piston aircraft. The era of jet aircraft was approaching: it would be fun to bring this trophy of dubious value into operation by the mid-50s. Not to mention the issues of operation, spare parts ..
    3. +1
      20 January 2015 21: 05
      Yes, no, I agree that in modern conditions, the old forgotten battleships with their armor nullify all the modern realities and canons of naval confrontation ship-rocket.
      And more than once this was started
  2. +16
    20 January 2015 07: 06
    Oleg, I was puzzled by this phrase:
    Onlywho launched the mass construction of warships after the war was the Soviet Union.
    Only? what
    Or do you mean the battleships built in the USSR? As far as I know, nothing was larger than the light cruisers of the 68K / 68-bis project from purely artillery ships.
    1. +2
      20 January 2015 11: 11
      Quote: Bongo
      As far as I know, from purely artillery ships nothing bigger than light cruisers the project 68К / 68-bis was not built.

      Here the question is not even in size, but in the fact that during the period from 1945-55 there were generally no warships built abroad.

      Maximum - several experimental units
      More than 5000 tons of ships were not built in principle
      1. +2
        20 January 2015 11: 21
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        Here the question is not even in size, but in the fact that during the period from 1945-55 there were generally no warships built abroad.

        Maximum - several experimental units
        More than 5000 tons of ships were not built in principle

        Oleg, how many countries were able to build large warships at that time?
        USA, UK, France, Italy, USSR. With all this, except the USA and the USSR, the main task was to restore the economy ... somehow it was not up to the battleships with cruisers ...
        PS: by the way, the pre-war club of mastodon fans also did not differ in variety, + Japan and Germany, and that’s all ...
  3. Marcus
    +21
    20 January 2015 07: 47
    Please tell me, but what about the article? I see a collection of common historical facts about battleships and some obscure hints about modern ship architecture.
    And what did the author want to say?
    1. avt
      +11
      20 January 2015 09: 57
      Quote: Marcus
      And what did the author want to say?

      The author wanted to say that he likes battleships and that's all. Well, I also like beautiful, epoch-making ships. Well, why put pressure on emotions under your addictions ??? Well, at least this ------ ,, All more or less modern ships the winners took (the well-known l / c "Giulio Cesare", which later became "Novorossiysk"). "If" Julius ", more - less modern ", then what, according to the author, was the oldest among the Italians?" San Marco "or what? laughing
      ,,. The German battleship, by its very presence, fettered all the forces of the British fleet in the North Atlantic. "--- Yeah, so," so, "that Hitler demanded to release it only when there were no aircraft carriers near. ,," As long as "Tirpitz" exists, the British fleet it is necessary to have two battleships of the "King George V" type at all times. Three ships of this type should always be in the waters of the metropolis - in case one of them is under repair. "
      - First Sea Lord Admiral Dudley Pound

      "It creates a general fear and threat at all points at once."
      - W. Churchill "------- Wow! The lords of horror themselves were catching up or otmazyvaetsya due to the presence of the ship, so if suddenly these monsters went to the bottom, then by and large no one noticed anything, but continued to fight and the winner was the one who had normally balanced ship groupings based on aircraft carriers ---- "These battleships were so" outdated "that they could change the theater situation by their presence alone" --- It's a pity that the Japanese could not understand this and canceled the landing on Midway, after the Yankees drowned the aircraft carriers, laughing
      1. +5
        20 January 2015 11: 27
        Quote: avt
        what, according to the author, the Italians were ancient

        For example, "Cayo Dulio" like "Andrea Doria" - in the photo. after WWII became the flagships of the Italian fleet



        With regards to "Giulio Cesare" / "Novorossiysk" - despite its age (commissioned - built in 1914) the ship went through deep modernization at the shipyard Cantieri del Tirreno in Genoa from October 25 1933 of October to 1 of October 1937 of the year, during which its performance characteristics, if not equal, became very close to the battleships of World War II

        Power of the power plant - has been increased three times
        Speed ​​- increased from 21 to 27-28 bonds.
        The main caliber - The Italians squandered gun barrels from 305 to 320 mm
        The average caliber has strengthened, the contours of the hull have been changed, the PTZ has been strengthened

        So Cesare was not quite as bad as avt thinks
        Quote: avt
        Lords themselves terribly caught up

        "Bismarck" - sistership "Tirpitz"

        Battle in the Danish Strait - sinking from the third salvo of Lin. cruiser "Hood" with all its crew of 1400 people.
        And the chronicle of the destruction of the German monster -

        In the morning, the heavy cruisers and battleships of the British Navy pulled up to the scene - the most dramatic chapter in the history of the hunt for the Bismarck began. During the last battle, Rodney fired 380 406 mm and 716 152 mm shells, King George V - 339 356 mm and 660 133 mm, heavy cruisers Dorsetshire and Norfolk - 254 and 527 203, respectively -mm shells ... Over 2,5 thousand rounds with the main and medium caliber!
        Quote: avt
        It is a pity that the Japanese could not understand these things and canceled the landing on Midway, after the aircraft carriers drowned the Yankees.

        Pozosboscalte,
        not forbidden
        1. avt
          0
          20 January 2015 11: 54
          Quote: avt
          ", then what, according to the author, was older among the Italians?

          Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
          For example, "Cayo Dulio" like "Andrea Doria" - in the photo. after WWII became the flagships of the Italian fleet

          It’s not funny yourself !? Or is it just stupid to say nothing? Well, okay, something like "Dante Alighieri", though where can I get it in World War II laughing So only, "San Marco"
          Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
          "Bismarck" - sistership "Tirpitz"

          Battle in the Danish Strait - sinking from the third salvo of Lin. cruiser "Hood" with all its crew of 1400 people.
          And the chronicle of the destruction of the German monster -

          Aha! arranged by the same stubborn "wise men" from the Admiralty, by the way. Do not enlighten what happened after that? "The Yankees did not bother and risk exposing expensive floating batteries - they drowned them with DECK aviation. By the way, from what battleship" Bismarck "" an eel "he caught ticking, oh, raiding communications to Brest!? And when after that, "Did Tirpitz go to similar raids?" Don't offer a heroic breakthrough across the Channel.
          Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
          Pozosboscalte,
          not forbidden
          good
          Well, when there is nothing concretely to answer, then the pose of such a sage burdened with knowledge, descended from the pedestal of greatness to the ignorant, will do just fine. laughing Will!? Is it me - the Sun!? Well, since Oleg is tired!? Drop all prostrate and send gifts - I will accept everything! laughing
          1. 0
            26 January 2015 22: 27
            About the pose of the sage I fully support))) The author sometimes sometimes does not consider it necessary to answer ... like a professional in marine subjects))) but the battleship he leaves from airplanes, as from standing ones))))
        2. 0
          26 January 2015 22: 24
          You have to call what Pound was called)))? Therefore, to quote his statements))) ...
    2. +10
      20 January 2015 12: 50
      Maybe the author will throw ourselves on the model of the battleship. Let him sit glued, enjoy the beauty.
      1. avt
        +5
        20 January 2015 13: 17
        Quote: Alexey M
        Maybe we’ll throw ourselves to the author on the model of the battleship.

        I wanted to make a "Richelieu" for myself, but how to paint it, make a dust cap and so that little things would not break ... well, I did not. And I collected several "Auroras" and there were more of the latter. smile
        1. +3
          20 January 2015 22: 20
          Quote: avt
          And in the USSR he also collected several "Auroras" and "Potemkins", and there were more of the latter.

          I also had these two ships, I never saw them on sale again. Now I decided to revive my hobby, so "Potemkin" was also found, "Aurora" is not. Are there plastic models of EBRs? Something I didn't see much.
          1. +2
            21 January 2015 08: 36
            Yes, and surprisingly enough. Zvezda has several of that era. And recently I saw at the stand of the store of scale models in full force assembled 1st and 2nd Pacific squadrons and Vladik's cruiser division. True on a very small scale, 1: 1400 emnip.
          2. +1
            21 January 2015 08: 36
            Yes, and surprisingly enough. Zvezda has several of that era. And recently I saw at the stand of the store of scale models in full force assembled 1st and 2nd Pacific squadrons and Vladik's cruiser division. True on a very small scale, 1: 1400 emnip.
            1. +2
              21 January 2015 20: 52
              Thank you comrade Konar... 1st and 2nd TOE - this is a class, my salivation began to flow. True, 1: 1400 is really not enough, the tsimis itself disappears. I will look, "Zvezda" saturates the market well (though in Belarus it is somehow sluggish). hi
      2. +2
        20 January 2015 15: 25
        Tirpitz seems to me more beautiful in appearance
        1. avt
          +4
          20 January 2015 16: 36
          Quote: blind
          Tirpitz seems to me more beautiful in appearance

          what No. nope! He's some kind of .... rational .... ,, gloomy genius "in short. laughing But the machine is strong! It seems like a continuation of "Derflinger" ... or rather the failed "Mackenzie", they looked, in the "architectural" plan, advanced and solid in the First World War. good And the Franks, with an accuracy of one turn, to the First World kurguzy irons, some bloated armadillos, not dreadnoughts, after the war, they were just handsome! fellow What, Dunkirk "with" Strastburg "that" Richelieu "with" Jean ". Even the converted Italians are somehow even perceived as newly built ships. Here, perhaps, "Carolina" amerskie and subsequent ones would be placed next to them. BUT! This is just a purely superficial comparison! Aesthetic perception, so to speak. smileIn no case is there a comparison in terms of performance characteristics and capabilities.
          1. +2
            20 January 2015 17: 57
            I also like Richelieu! Aesthetically speaking. Ships with waste from the classics in the layout look somehow more beautiful. Of course, both those and others have their own merits and demerits ...
      3. +1
        20 January 2015 15: 43
        http://modelist.zp.ua/kupit-modeli-voennyh-korabley/trumpeter-uss-missouri-bb-63
        -03705-1-200-kupit-model
      4. +4
        21 January 2015 11: 08
        Quote: Alexey M
        Maybe the author will throw ourselves on the model of the battleship. Let him sit glued, enjoy the beauty.


        good
        Best comment of the month !!!
        THANK. Until now, the laugh cannot move away ....
        + + + +
  4. +21
    20 January 2015 07: 51
    Good afternoon, Oleg. Again the argument about the battleships. I admit that for the USSR in the 70s the presence of armored missile carriers would be relevant, and in the 80s too, because anti-ship capabilities of the United States and its allies were quite modest in armor penetration. The main anti-ship weapons in the United States were aircraft carrying free-falling bombs and large-caliber NURSs, as well as SAM (though Talos was cool in this regard). The allies of the RCC were subsonic with a relatively light b / h in the range of 100-200 kg. Because side armor from 150 mm. on Soviet ships would be relevant, and the armored deck of course ...
    With regards to the US Navy, the armor did not make sense, because if the Soviet anti-ship missiles hit, no armor would help. For example, the aviation X-22 with RP / cumulative warhead weighing 900 kg. as they say
    the area of ​​the hole was up to 22 sq. m, and the internal compartments were burned out by a cumulative jet to a depth of 12 m.

    The rest of the P-5/6/35/70/120/500/700/1000 anti-ship missiles did not differ in miniature, not to mention the warhead ...
    If the Beriev KS-1 "Kometa" was tested in the "Krasny Kavkaz" KR, which broke in half and sank, what would have happened if the P-35 (dry weight! 2,9t., Warhead weight 1t.) Hit in LC Iowa?
    1. -1
      20 January 2015 11: 36
      Quote: Nayhas
      With regards to the US Navy, the armor did not make sense, because when hit by Soviet anti-ship missiles

      Considering that the US Navy never fought with the Soviet Navy, but was always used against countries that had "Exocets" and other trash

      And besides, they suffered losses



      Quote: Nayhas
      If the Beriev KS-1 "Kometa" was tested in the "Krasny Kavkaz" KR, which broke in half and sank

      Fairy tale got

      Open any source - "Comet" hit a cruiser in inert gear at least three times. And only the last test became fatal - despite the fact that she did not hit the armored belt, and the old cruiser built in 1909 (the size of a destroyer) simply fell apart from decay
      Quote: Nayhas
      would it be if the P-35 (dry weight! 2,9t., warhead mass 1t.) at speeds greater than 1M got into Iowa LA?

      Like the Malaysian Boeing, it pierced through Ukraine to the center of the Earth. And then! 200 tons of mass, of which 30 tons of powerful fuel

      There would be nothing. When hitting an armor, the wings and fuselage would remain outside. A warhead would go forward, which also most likely collapsed when it hit an armor. In the area of ​​the missile hit, the armor plates would be dented and the power set of the hull bent on the 50 square. m
      1. +4
        20 January 2015 13: 39
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        Considering that the US Navy has never fought with the Soviet Navy, but has always been used against countries that had "Exosets"

        What does it matter if the ships were built against a certain enemy, the USSR whose main weapon is supersonic anti-ship missiles?
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        Fairy tale got

        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        just fell apart from decay

        Well, let's say. What about the description of the P-35 test for the unfinished leader EM 48 pr. Kiev?
        The rocket fell into the left cheekbone, opened the deck like a tin can, about 50 m long, then the rocket collapsed, and its engine struck the bottom, and after 3 minutes the leader sank.

        By the way, the KSSCh, by the way, "Yerevan" also let it go from the first hit to the bottom, while the warhead was also inert, and made a hole of 2,2X2 m in the side ...
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        Like the Malaysian Boeing - pierced through Ukraine

        Oleg, but this is superfluous ...
        Boeing has already fallen in the form of debris. fell apart still in the air.
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        There would be nothing. When hitting an armor, the wings and fuselage would remain outside. A warhead would go forward, which also most likely collapsed when it hit an armor. In the area of ​​the missile hit, the armor plates would be dented and the power set of the hull bent on the 50 square. m

        Do you have a calculation for this case? So the P-35 anti-ship missile was equipped with a 4G-48 high-explosive-cumulative warhead (weight 800-1000kg), why should it leave only a dent?
        A cumulative jet from a funnel of such a diameter of about a meter does not burn through 300 mm. homogeneous armor?
      2. +6
        20 January 2015 16: 16
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        Open any source - "Comet" hit the cruiser at least three times in inert gear

        So firing exercises are carried out by missiles with IBC, those. "blank", which does not explode, but simply pierces the ship, because the fact of the hit, and not the spread of the target into the chips, is important.
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        There would be nothing. When hitting an armor, the wings and fuselage would remain outside. A warhead would go forward, which also most likely collapsed when it hit an armor.

        If IBC, then yes.
        little difference


        at the maximum temperatures allowed by the firing tables + 40 ° С and -24 ° С, the range was 650 and 431 km, and the average speeds are 338 and 384 m / s, respectively. Under normal conditions (+ 20 ° С), the range was 574 km, and average speed - 345 m / s.
        high explosive-cumulative warhead 4Г-48 (weight - 930 kg, developed by NII-6)
        v = 350m / s (let it go)
        Case diameter 1 m
        Exhaled empty weight about 400kg
        M = 930 + 400 = 1330kg
        S = 0,785 m2
        Ek = mV "/2=81.462.500J = 81,5 MJ almost
        1 kilogram TNT = 4,184 · MJ;, RESPONSIBLY THIS is approximately 20 kg TNT
        HAVE PUNCHED A FUGAS TNT weighing 20kg Armor?

        Stupidly, about the penetration can be calculated by the formula of Jacob de Marre

        b is the thickness of the armor, dm, V, m / s is the speed at which the projectile meets the armor, K is the armor resistance coefficient, has a value from 1900 to 2400, but usually 2200, q, kg — projectile mass, d — projectile caliber, dm, A — angle in degrees between the longitudinal axis of the projectile and the normal to the armor at the time of the meeting (dm --- not inches, but decimeters!)
        COS A for simplicity = 1
        Empiricism shows that this ingot will penetrate armor or not ??

        For warheads you need + OFK part in 930kg
        HOW MUCH did you have to cumulate?

        breakdown effect of a cumulative charge with a conical funnel:
        b = L * (Pc / Pп) ^ 0,5
        where b is the depth of penetration of the jet into the barrier, L is the length of the jet equal to the length of the generatrix of the cumulative notch cone, Pc is the density of the jet material, and Pn is the density of the barrier. The jet length L: L = R / sinA, where R is the radius of the charge, A is the angle between the axis of the charge and the generatrix of the cone.

        roughly so on my knee, taking the fraction of warheads in the cumulative charge = 15%, I got about 2 meters of armor penetration ...
        maybe wrong.
        1. +1
          20 January 2015 16: 29
          How warhead RCC light and middle class will become similar to IT then there will be something to talk about.
          Quote: opus
          roughly so on my knee, taking the fraction of warheads in the cumulative charge = 15%, I got about 2 meters of armor penetration ..

          But what does the ship breakdown in 20-30 mm for? The ship is not a tank, it does not immediately have ammunition and fuel behind its armor.
          1. +3
            20 January 2015 17: 09
            and why the anti-ship missiles warhead is of the light and middle class? what heavy or supersonic rules do not allow? Do not shoot torpedoes, do not put mines, right? what for bans? heavy bombs, no, no, controlled ones, too! Limit the number of sorties! in war, all means are good, so battleships were sunk over and over again (by accident, as Oleg says) "in forbidden ways"
            1. +1
              20 January 2015 17: 52
              Quote: Tlauicol
              and why warhead RCC precisely light and middle class?

              Because carriers of heavy supersonic are very few.
              Quote: Tlauicol
              heavy bombs

              These please feed for shredder))
              1. +2
                20 January 2015 18: 22
                very few :)) and the battleships are now a dime a dozen? There were few Tollboys, as well as their carriers, but Tirpitz was enough, although the bomb was not even created as an anti-ship weapon. Any battleship today will be built longer than weapons against it.

                and, judging by the fact that you still rely on a shredder, battleships with their armor fuck are not needed. Strong air defense - this is the best armor!
                1. +1
                  20 January 2015 19: 21
                  Quote: Tlauicol
                  There were few tollboys either,

                  Well, do not compare air defense)) in the current situation, horizontal bombing with 8-10 km is not even funny))
                  Strong anti-aircraft defense on a cardboard ship will not war much))
                  1. +4
                    20 January 2015 19: 39
                    in the current situation, horizontal bombing over many tens of kilometers and / or after the suppression of radars. And I cited Tollboy as an example of the fact that I did not even have to invent the anti-ship wunderwaffe.
                    1. +1
                      20 January 2015 21: 24
                      Quote: Tlauicol
                      in the current situation, horizontal bombing over many tens of kilometers and / or after the suppression of radars

                      Over many tens of kilometers, there will be no vertical hit, and the speed is still unknown what will be.
                      Quote: Tlauicol
                      after the suppression of radar.

                      After the suppression of the radar for a cardboard ship does not exist at all.
            2. 0
              26 January 2015 22: 34
              That's it to the point ... I already wrote about it ... so it's not fair that he kicked me ... so I lost)))))
          2. +4
            20 January 2015 17: 47
            Quote: Kars
            And what does the ship breakdown in 20-30 mm?

            The diameter of the RCC (warhead) is about 1 meters !!!!

            And that's not the point.
            The "breakdown" is followed by a warhead with 930 kg of TNT.

            1 kilogram TNT = 4,184 · MJ;
            Those inside where
            Quote: Kars
            for armor there is no BC and fuel immediately.
            3 900 MJ of energy is released.
            WHAT seems to be EQUIVALENT TO BURNING (SIMULTANEOUSLY, in one place) 1000 kilogram high octane gasoline

            + shards
            + Ek from the case itself, which will go to ET (heat)
            + residues of fuel components
            by the way, there is the same thing behind the armor: wires, fuel lines, pneumatic systems, gy
            1. +1
              20 January 2015 18: 18
              Quote: opus
              The diameter of the RCC (warhead) is about 1 meters !!!!

              And what? The cumulative breakdown has no special connection with the total diameter. meter you are sweeping. Graniom or basalt gathered?
              Quote: opus
              WHAT seems to be EQUIVALENT TO BURNING (SIMULTANEOUSLY, in one place) 1000 kilogram of high-octane gasoline

              + shards

              Torpedoes hit the armor, and only scratched the paint.
              Quote: opus
              by the way, there is the same thing behind the armor: wires, fuel lines, pneumatic systems, gy

              NOT in the first compartment for armor.
              Quote: opus
              The "breakdown" is followed by a warhead with 930 kg TNT

              nothing will follow the breakdown.
              1. +2
                20 January 2015 18: 51
                the principle would be something like this for subsonic missiles. 8 countries already have supersonic anti-ship missiles. torpedoes mines heavy bombs also need not be invented. and there are anti-radar missiles
                1. +1
                  20 January 2015 19: 19
                  Quote: Tlauicol
                  the principle would be something like this for subsonic missiles. supersonic anti-ship missiles already have 8 countries

                  Why all of a sudden? And how many countries have light and medium RCC?
                  Quote: Tlauicol
                  mine bombs do not need to invent heavy bombs either. and there are anti-radar missiles

                  So why it’s trifling to write off the ships at all)) And you will begin to talk about active countermeasures systems, so you can put them on a capital ship more and better, and it will not burn from a close explosion of a downed rocket)))
                  1. +2
                    20 January 2015 19: 34
                    I mean, why build a golden ship if they drown it anyway? no matter how heroically he runs and hides in the fjords

                    you wrote that nothing will follow the cumulative breakdown - I showed a picture, that if necessary - will follow
              2. +3
                20 January 2015 19: 31
                Quote: Kars
                And what? The cumulative breakdown has no special connection with the total diameter. meter is you on a walk

                To be honest, I’m not busy HOW is the HE-4-48 HE explosively cumulative warhead (weight - 930 kg), BUT its diameter is almost EXACTLY METER
                So this meter must be shoved through the armor, or by detonating it on the armor-destroy the armor.
                A cruise missile from the "Rubezh" complex "impacts" the PKZ-35.




                This is certainly NOT a LINCOR, but also a warhead is not a warhead, but an IBCH, i.e. "blank"
                Quote: Kars
                Graniom or basalt gathered?

                Yes, it was "about" about them:

                Quote: Nayhas
                What about the description of the P-35 test for the unfinished EM leader, pr.48 Kiev?

                Quote: Kars
                Torpedoes hit the armor, and only scratched the paint.

                Torpedo speed is no more than 100km / h (30m / s), and here 350M / s

                speed is critical here
                Quote: Kars
                NOT in the first compartment for armor.

                and what's in there?
                I’ve seen all my life on ships behind armor: cables, fuel lines, air ducts, and so on.
                Quote: Kars
                nothing will follow the breakdown.

                "should" I mean MOVES / warhead flies in with 930kg TNT
                1. +1
                  20 January 2015 21: 32
                  Quote: opus
                  To be honest, I'm not busy HOW does the HE-4-48 HE explosively cumulative warhead (weight - 930 kg), BUT its diameter is almost EXACTLY METER

                  You do not know in vain.
                  Quote: opus
                  a snub rocket from the "Rubezh" complex "affects" the PKZ-35.

                  This is not an armored board, and if I’m not mistaken, it’s a mass
                  Quote: opus
                  Torpedo speed is no more than 100km / h (30m / s), and here 350M / s

                  Are you already starting to refer to supersonic sound?
                  Quote: opus
                  Yes, it was "about" about them:

                  Well, such a size is not every country will pull, and air defense goals will be more difficult to miss.
                  Quote: opus
                  and what's in there?
                  I’ve seen all my life on ships behind armor: cables, fuel lines, air ducts, and so on.

                  You served in the battleships? In the first compartment, in theory, in principle, no one will place anything vital.
                  Quote: opus

                  "should" I mean MOVES / warhead flies in with 930kg TNT

                  With a cumulative warhead on armor, nothing will fly.
                  To all appearances, this is not a classic armor-piercing warhead, but a wide-focus funnel, which is designed to roughly focus the direction of the blast wave, maybe I'm wrong - but this can only be shown in the section of the warhead
                  1. +1
                    20 January 2015 21: 47
                    About 350 m / s


                    Projectile weight (kg)
                    385.55
                    385,55
                    566,98
                    635,02
                    870,89

                    The final velocity of the projectile (m / s) at a distance of 9 1 40 m
                    579,5
                    610
                    579.5
                    554,25
                    554,25

                    Final projectile energy (mcg) at a distance of 9140 m
                    6587723
                    7299976,8
                    9688010
                    10287316,6
                    14107700

                    Penetration of a projectile (cm) at a distance of 9140 m
                    25.9
                    28,4
                    32
                    31,77
                    35.6

                    And what an armor-piercing shell looks like I showed.
                    1. +1
                      20 January 2015 22: 19
                      And how many explosives in an armor-piercing shell?
                      I remember that in 2MB, many BB shells did not fire fuses after breaking through the armor. With a small percentage of hits, this was critical.
                      If a rocket on approach is damaged by anti-aircraft fire, it may not work or fall. And the shell is more reliable good
                      1. +1
                        20 January 2015 22: 57
                        Quote: Sem Faraday
                        And how many explosives in an armor-piercing shell?

                        from 4 to 9%
                    2. +4
                      20 January 2015 22: 59
                      Quote: Kars
                      The final velocity of the projectile (m / s) at a distance of 9 1 40 m

                      RCC, in contrast to the projectile at the final section, has a GREAT speed than at the start and on the march (the remote control works all the time, the mass decreases)

                      and the weight there is completely OTHER, 930kg-100kg = warhead, + up to 450 kg body + TC residues.

                      Quote: Kars
                      And what an armor-piercing shell looks like I showed.

                      considered warhead: high -cumulative
                      Consider this:

                      Quote: opus
                      breakdown effect of a cumulative charge with a conical funnel:
                      b = L * (Pc / Pп) ^ 0,5

                      + Ek from the mass itself, affecting the penetration (local heating in the end, mechanical failure).
                      You think by:

                      BB is not a COP and not a FS.
                  2. +3
                    20 January 2015 22: 53
                    Quote: Kars
                    You do not know in vain.

                    Enlighten on the example of the explosively cumulative warhead 4Г-48. Maybe a photo?
                    Quote: Kars
                    Are you already starting to refer to supersonic sound?

                    RCC superzukova, talk about her
                    1. Ek = m * V * V / 2
                    2. Armor penetration (empiricism):

                    3. Everywhere V to a degree MORE THAN 1 (2 and 1,43)
                    a number with two "0" squared gives 4 re, 5 orders of magnitude: in our case, 350 * 350 = 122500
                    a number in the power of 1,43 gives: in our case 4 345.275
                    Which strongly plays on kinetic energy and armor penetration.
                    What gives in this case 30 m / s (torpedo)? = 900
                    900 and 122500: THERE IS A DIFFERENCE (with a similar mass).
                    therefore a torpedo and
                    Quote: Kars
                    only the paint was scratched.

                    Quote: Kars
                    if I’m not mistaken, getting a mass-dimensional dummy warhead

                    I wrote the same IBC = inertial warhead, if you shoot a battle every time, you don’t get targets.
                    BUT (!) The reduced thickness of the sheet, taking into account that it has pierced through the gut + intestines inside, will be CLOSE to the armor plate.
                    Quote: Kars
                    Well, such a size is not every country will pull, and air defense goals will be more difficult to miss.

                    There is such a country, it is us, and the rest do not really interest me, and who else will "swing" at the sovereign of the seas. Although there are China and India, it seems
                    About air defense, let's see. So far, the imitation of interceptions of the RCC of the USSR by the Americans is not very successful. Here is to riddle f-16, yes.
                    Quote: Kars
                    Have you served on armadillos?

                    no.

                    (sorry photo unsuccessful, you can not see the wiring harness, and the pneumatic system, the piping of the cooling system behind the air borot)
                    What's the difference?

                    Quote: Kars
                    Nothing flies from the cumulative warhead on armor

                    she is FAST-CUMULATIVE.
                    I think so: the cumulative part (approx. 100kg?) Burns through the armored belt (maybe it loses not to the point, but along the circumference, a few), the land mine follows and blown up inside.
                    Maybe I'm wrong. THEN WHY "fuss"
                    1. +1
                      20 January 2015 23: 05
                      Quote: opus
                      light on the example of the explosively cumulative warhead 4Г-48. Maybe a photo?

                      Well, you are operating on her with you and the photo. I know the general principle of cumulative weapons.
                      Quote: opus
                      RCC superzukova, talk about her

                      And why a spherical sound? By the way, I also brought a picture of an armor-piercing projectile with a super-sonic shell)) and more than your 350 m / s
                      Quote: opus
                      Which plays a lot of kinetic energy and armor penetration

                      You point blank do not want to look at the mechanical strength of the object that you want to break something through.
                      Quote: opus
                      What gives in this case 30 m / s (torpedo)? = 900

                      Quote: opus
                      3 900 MJ of energy is released.

                      there 400 kg of explosives gives more

                      Quote: opus
                      Wrote the same = inertial warhead

                      So why are you bringing it in? We are interested in what will come in after the warhead explosion.
                      Quote: opus
                      air)
                      What's the difference?

                      Huge difference. For a thin cumulative jet, just a colossal difference.
                      Quote: opus
                      I think so: the cumulative part (approx. 100kg?) Burns through the armored belt (maybe it loses not to the point, but along the circumference, a few), the mine goes further and is undermined inside

                      It won’t work out. But our argument will be resolved only by the photo
                      Quote: opus
                      Maybe I'm wrong. THEN WHY "fuss"

                      And what is there to make a fuss? They made a notch in the mass of explosives, and they didn’t do the whole thing, probably even the lining of the funnel.
                      1. +3
                        21 January 2015 01: 04
                        Quote: Kars
                        I know the general principle of cumulative weapons.

                        I know the same thing, but I didn’t find the explosively cumulative warhead, specifically 4-48.
                        there is:


                        the warhead consists of a profiled cumulative cladding 1 with a thickening in the central part, rear charge 2made of a high-explosive metallized explosive, inside which the central charge 3 of a blasting explosive is located concentrically, contacting the butt with a bulge on the cladding, the front explosive charge 4 of a blasting explosive adjacent to the outer side of the cladding, and the initiating device 5.

                        - through the use of a profiled lining in the form of a spherical segment with a thickening in the center, performing a bursting charge combined with the central and front charges from the blasting explosive, an increase in depth and an increase in the reliability of the breakdown effect of warheads are ensured;
                        - through the use of a combined bursting charge, in which the charge mass from a high-explosive, metallized aircraft is about 75% of the total charge masshigh explosive action is provided not lessthan the high-explosive action of warhead, the explosive charge of which is made homogeneous from high-explosive aircraft of the same formulation and mass.

                        in cumulative ammunition, armor penetration increases PROPORTIONALLY TO CALIBERrather than mass per unit area.
                        Quote: Kars
                        more than your 350 m / s

                        but it is not cumulative, the progressive effect is small (see formula), since the diameter is GREAT, this is not BOPS.
                        Quote: Kars
                        You point blank do not want to look at the mechanical strength of the object that you want to break something through.

                        is there a big difference for the cop? A spaced armor for battleships yet

                        Quote: Kars
                        there 400 kg of explosives gives more

                        calculator, error, recount
                        Quote: Kars
                        for a thin cumulative jet, just a colossal difference.

                        Followed by a fugaska:
                        design of a warhead of ~ 140 mm caliber with a profiled copper lining and combined charge, which has the following main technical characteristics: Combined burst charge mass - ~ 3,6 kg The ratio of the masses of the back charge of a high explosive metallized explosive and the combined charge as a whole - ~ 0,75 Penetration depth to normal with a frequency 1,0 medium-hard armor focal lengths from 0 to 5,7 calibres - more than 1 caliber TNT (TIT) equivalent of an explosion in an air shock wave at a peak in 0,5 bar by: - ​​overpressure - more than 2
                        - impulse - more than 2,2

                      2. +2
                        21 January 2015 01: 06
                        Quote: Kars
                        It won’t work out. But our argument will be resolved only by the photo

                        above drawing, but this is not 4-48.
                        Quote: Kars
                        And what is there to fence?


                        US patent 4033265 from 05.06.77, MKI F 42 AT 13 / 12
                      3. +1
                        21 January 2015 01: 20
                        Quote: opus
                        above drawing, but this is not 4-48.

                        And he will not pierce a hole equal to its diameter in the armor.
                        You do not confuse the depth of the channel with the diameter.
                        And it is clearly seen that the explosive monoblock, and then nothing flies.


                        Quote: opus
                        in cumulative ammunition, armor penetration increases PROPORTIONALLY to CALIBER, and not to mass per unit area.


                        You seem to be friends with mathematics, maybe you can count it?
                        http://pandia.org/456119/
                      4. +1
                        21 January 2015 02: 18
                        it’s cool some kind of small minuser announced))) don’t be ashamed to open your face)) can you tell me what?
                      5. +2
                        21 January 2015 02: 31
                        Quote: Kars
                        And he will not pierce a hole equal to its diameter in the armor.

                        1. This is not a 4Г-48 / scheme, as there is, and what's there -xs
                        2.This one (what is on the diagram, PROBET, maybe the bottom explosive behind it, through the puncture of the CS, the land mine will "expand". Well, maybe not for the entire diameter. It seems to me that
                        Circuits - for 140mm
                        Quote: Kars
                        You do not confuse the depth of the channel with the diameter.

                        I am nothing at all. not my circuit, like experiment
                        Quote: Kars
                        And it is clearly seen that the BB is a monoblock,

                        2 (high explosive) and 3 (high explosive), not a monoblock. The problem of weak armor action is solved
                        Quote: Kars
                        You seem to be friends with mathematics, maybe you can count it?

                        I also read in the PM "Theory of the process of armor penetration of subcaliber and ..
                        CS is not mathematics, it is more gas and hydrodynamics: ice melting by a stream of water.
                        Academician M.A. Lavrentiev: "the metal of the facing of the cumulative recess, due to the enormous pressure that develops in a very short time, acquires the properties ideal incompressible fluid (quasi-fluid) and behaves in full accordance with the laws of hydrodynamics. Including the nature of the impact on a solid barrier. "
                        chapter 11 "Cumulation" "Explosion physics", I recommend


                        On college Saturdays, don't dig so deep
                      6. +1
                        21 January 2015 02: 50
                        Quote: opus
                        2. This (what is on the diagram, PROBET, maybe behind it the bottom explosive, through the puncture of the COP, the land mine will "expand".

                        Ничего подобного.
                        Quote: opus
                        2 (high explosive) and 3 (high explosive), not a monoblock. The problem of weak armor action is solved

                        A monoblock with a different type of explosive that explodes at the same time. It’s rather not an off-target action, but a general action on the target. And then the RPG-7 hitting the Jeep’s engine, breaking even the windshield, doesn’t break it.

                        Quote: opus
                        on a solid barrier. "
                        chapter 11 "Cumulation" "Explosion physics", I recommend

                        I downloaded it a long time ago, both volumes, but not for me, a lot of numbers.
                        But the fact that the COP never punches a hole even equal to its diameter is what I know for sure (naturally in armor)

                        And as I said before
                        Quote: Kars
                        In all, here it’s not a classic armor-piercing warhead, but a wide-focus funnel, which is designed to roughly focus the direction of the blast wave,

                        What did you show in your pictures, but the tank CBS, see the difference?
                      7. +2
                        21 January 2015 11: 05
                        Quote: Kars
                        Ничего подобного.

                        Then share your thoughts on the action of the high-explosive charge of high-explosive rocket, high power (930 kg) and large diameter (1 m)
                        Quote: Kars
                        A candy bar with a different type of explosive that explodes simultaneously.

                        No. "Physics of explosion and impact". Different explosives (for physical chemistry and others), separated by contact surfaces, DO NOT EXPLODE at the same time. This can be seen in the diagram, as well as in the distance of the detonator from different zones.
                        For a blast µSec, this is a "long term".
                        Well, it contradicts logic: if at the same time why separate? Why brisant and high explosive? 2 and 3?
                        Quote: Kars
                        I downloaded it a long time ago, both volumes, but not for me, a lot of numbers.

                        belay
                        Quote: Kars
                        But the fact that the COP never punches a hole even equal to its diameter is what I know for sure (

                        Everyone knows that. But.
                        1. In this case, a CS with a diameter of 1 meter (not 152 mm, but 1000mm), behind which a compound from F and B BB is initiated, do you have data on how such a CS behaves, of such diameter, with such a sandwich?
                        2. I already wrote. Since d = 1m, and all this plop is not for the tank, but specifically for the ship and there is no information. Who knows.
                        Maybe there are 6 * KS (d = 140mm), located revolvingly (around the circumference, outside), which (each) burns 6 holes (perforates) along the outer arc of the circle, then the high-explosive part of the warhead KNOBS this "cover", and blasting crushes inside ship everything, ALREADY FOR THE ARMOR BELT.
                        ?
                        Quote: Kars
                        CBS, see the difference?

                        I see. But the "products" you are considering are limited in diameter.
                        We are considering warhead RCC with a diameter of 1 meter and a weight of 1000kg.
                        As the bearded Engels used to say: "The transition from quantity to quality."
                        Still, the difference in size and weight is an order of magnitude (or even more)
                      8. +1
                        21 January 2015 15: 22
                        Quote: opus
                        Then share your thoughts on the action of the high-explosive charge of high-explosive rocket, high power (930 kg) and large diameter (1 m)

                        For the diameter you take that rocket body or what?
                        Quote: Kars
                        To all appearances, this is not a classic armor-piercing warhead, but a wide-focus funnel, which is designed to roughly focus the direction of the blast wave, maybe I'm wrong - but this can only be shown in the section of the warhead

                        Quote: opus
                        No. "Physics of explosion and impact". Different explosives (for physical chemistry and others), separated by contact surfaces, DO NOT EXPLODE at the same time.

                        Explode, explode. Separation is not a meter layer)
                        Quote: opus
                        Well, it contradicts logic: if at the same time why separate? Why brisant and high explosive? 2 and 3?

                        Do the names say nothing to you? Blisny and high explosive? At least honestly say what is a high explosive?
                        There are two main types of explosives: blasting (local action) and high-explosive (general action).

                        Quote: opus
                        1. In this case, a COP with a diameter of 1 meter (not 152 mm, but 1000mm), s

                        And what? The maximum you can count on is the 0,3 diameter
                        Quote: opus
                        I already wrote. Since d = 1m, and all this plop is not for the tank, but specifically for the ship and there is no information

                        Specifically, this is not for armor penetration but for the formation of the direction of the explosion.
                        Quote: opus
                        Maybe there 6 * KS (d = 140mm) located revolver (around the circumference, outside), which (each) burns 6 holes (perforates) along the outer arc of the circle, then the high explosive part

                        This is generally pure nonsense.
                        Quote: opus
                        zhu. But the "products" you are considering are limited in diameter

                        What can we say we won’t understand each other. Find something actual, then we’ll talk about the link.
                      9. +1
                        21 January 2015 15: 56
                        Quote: Kars
                        For the diameter you take that rocket body or what?

                        Warhead, Diameter comparable to case diameter (+/-)

                        Quote: Kars
                        There is no separation meter layer)

                        -The first stage to create RDS-1
                        -The BFD contains a body, an initiation system, and external and internal explosive charges. The external explosive charge has a high detonation velocity D 1, and the internal explosive charge has a lower detonation velocity D 2. A cumulative recess is made at the end of the internal explosive charge. The external charge is made in the form of a thin conical layer, at the top of which an initiation system is installed with the angle of the solution. An additional cylindrical explosive charge with a detonation velocity D 3 is installed on the surface of the external charge.
                        (with such lotions I can form both the appearance of the CS and the strength of the CS)
                        Quote: Kars
                        Find something actual, then we’ll talk about the link.

                        Why? If everything is from me
                        Quote: Kars
                        pure nonsense.

                        ?
                      10. +1
                        21 January 2015 17: 04
                        Quote: opus
                        H, Diameter comparable to case diameter (+/-)

                        Granite is already a move))
                        Diameter, m 0,85

                        a + is millimeters to 100
                        Quote: opus
                        The external charge is made in the form of a thin conical layer, at the top of which a system of

                        Well, bring the device and bring the principle of action.,
                        Quote: opus
                        Why? If everything is from me

                        If there is no need, it means no.
                        Quote: opus
                        ?

                        and what nonsense - if not, I would like to see it.
                        as 6 charges explode and do not interfere with each other and then something else breaks and enters))
                      11. +1
                        21 January 2015 17: 19
                        Quote: Kars
                        Granite is already a move))

                        1. Repeat: photo warhead 4Г-48 no
                        2. the data is similar
                        TTX missiles:
                        Case length - 8840 mm (or missiles with CPC?)
                        Case Diameter - 1140 mm
                        Wingspan - 2600 mm
                        The diameter of the circumscribed circle (rocket in the container) - 1350 mm

                        Starting weight - 7360 kg
                        CPC weight - 1760 kg
                        Warhead mass:
                        - 584 kg
                        - 750 kg (conventional warhead according to other data)
                        - 618 kg (according to unconfirmed confused data, tape.ru)


                        Quote: Kars
                        if not, I would like to see it.
                        as 6 charges explode and do not interfere with each other and then something else breaks and enters))

                        do not "interfere"?

                        And such work was carried out
                      12. +1
                        21 January 2015 15: 24
                        Even your meter is stupid
                        Missile dimensions: length - 11,6 m; diameter - 0,94 m

                        The warhead is a high-explosive cumulative penetrating explosive (HE) of increased power, weighing 950 kg (explosive mass is 500 kg)

                        For X-22Н, lightweight up to 630 kg warheads with a high-explosive-cumulative charge were also used, when triggered, a destruction zone formed on board the ship with an area of ​​22 m² and a depth of 12 m

                        as I affirm the formation of the direction of the explosion.
                      13. +2
                        21 January 2015 16: 09
                        Quote: Kars
                        Even your meter is stupid

                        But mine. But not someone's fantasies.
                        Yes, and you need to read your own writings?
                        Quote: Kars
                        when triggered, which formed on board the ship destruction zone with an area of ​​22 m² and a depth of 12 m²


                        Quote: Kars
                        And he will not break armor hole equal its diameter.

                        At first, BOPS and other AP shells were given to me as an "argument", now Storm (with a case diameter of 0,9 m, and AIR basing).
                        ?
                        Then, at the cumulative-high-explosive warhead, for some reason, the high-explosive component was "forgotten", etc.

                        Remind about what is it?
                        Quote: Nayhas
                        if P-35 (dry weight! 2,9t., warhead weight 1t.) at speeds greater than 1M got into Iowa LA?





                        ?
                        Go straight to 30mm from Oerlikon, will it be more weighty, or Exocet?
                      14. +1
                        21 January 2015 17: 11
                        Quote: opus
                        But mine. But not someone's fantasies.

                        well yours))
                        Quote: opus
                        At first, BOPS and other AP shells were given to me as an "argument", now Tempest (with a hull diameter of 0,9 m, and airborne).

                        I actually thought that you are not talking about, but you are talking about the P-35, which you can not even consider, since with its characteristics it will not overcome modern air defense.

                        Max. body diameter 1,0)))))) maximum diameter))

                        Quote: opus
                        Go straight to 30mm from Oerlikon, will it be more weighty, or Exocet?

                        Well, I don’t know, everything throws links to
                        RCC type "Exocet" (armor penetration up to 90 mm
                      15. +1
                        21 January 2015 17: 26
                        Quote: Kars
                        Max. body diameter 1,0)))))) maximum diameter))

                        and?



                        I did not speak about the PC (case) or the size with a turbojet engine?
                        The diameter is, and approximately equal to the diameter of the warhead.
                        A cone is a cone: aerodynamics + p / transparency
                        Quote: Kars
                        Well, I don’t know, everything throws links to

                        take RIM-8

                        or SSM-N-9 "Regulus II"

                        and contact result:
                      16. +1
                        21 January 2015 22: 24
                        Quote: opus
                        and?

                        I did not see a single Meter in the tablets))
                        Quote: opus
                        I did not speak about the PC (case) or the size with a turbojet engine?

                        On your rocket diagram, it is clearly visible that the warhead is much smaller than the MAXIMUM diameter of the rocket.
                        Quote: opus
                        take RIM-8

                        Why did you jump from Exocet to the three-ton Rome?
                        Quote: opus
                        and contact result:

                        Nothing special, how much is the thickness of the deck armor?



                        I’ll expand my thought a bit - booking a ship will even allow multi-ton supersonic missiles to minimize damage by preventing them from penetrating into the depths of the ship, as well as providing stability to the ship when fragments of wrecked or detonated anti-ship missiles hit it.

                        But as for the cumulative breakdown equal to the diameter of the warhead, you all the same think, count, since the flow of formulas resulted.
  5. +2
    20 January 2015 10: 21
    The battleships are now stupid, they will not be allowed to go to the shore, then the guns and the exhaust pipe are an excellent target for shells with an infrared aiming head. And the thick skin of a battleship costs little without a move, and the boom of both planning and missiles of the DF-21 type all this reduces the advantages of the battleship to zero.
  6. +5
    20 January 2015 11: 04
    Again with Kaptsov everything is "not an argument." Any of the sunken battleships, it turns out, was either accidentally sunk or .... again by accident. And as an argument for the armor is already quite ancient "Peter" and for some reason Zamvolt, which is quite far from armored heavy ships. You can, of course, stick a bunch of armor on today's Zamwalt or any other missile cruiser (destroyer) and send it to surf the Bolshoi Theater. But, firstly, it will be another wunderwaffle, of which many have been born in the minds since the First World War, a la land battleships, flying tanks and submarines, and which will either move at the speed of a turtle, or will not be able to carry a sufficient amount of weapons, or both, and secondly, who said that there is no bolt with a left-hand thread for this cunning ass? drown, 100%. Not aviation, so submarines. And no armor will save. That is why the big uncles in the offices, among which there are quite a few smart ones, came to the concept of the ship long ago and it is stupid to change something today, because there are no real prerequisites. So ... fancy
    1. +5
      20 January 2015 11: 22
      Quote: Delta
      So ... fantasies

      I’ll tell you in the world the topic of neolincors is well known and has a fairly large number of fans ...



      it's finally something with something, a Soviet missile battleship / aircraft carrier ...
      1. 0
        20 January 2015 21: 28
        Lord, is that indicated in the BC ICBM, judging by the drawing? What fantasy brings people to there, there are displacements of kilotons under 1000, probably.
    2. +2
      20 January 2015 11: 50
      Quote: Delta
      Any of the recessed battleships, it turns out, was either accidentally sunk or .... again by accident.

      None of the battleships of the late period could be sunk by the usual (less than 1 m) bomb or attack by at least one squadron of aircraft of that time

      Tirpitz, Yamato and Musashi - it took hundreds of sorties aviation
      Bismarck - four torpedoes and 2500 main and medium caliber shots
      Nagato - withstood two nuclear explosions
      Roma - controlled super-bomb

      Battleships sunk in Pearl Harbor - old tubs built in 1915, stood with their pants down, but they could not be killed with ordinary bombs. Numerous hits from torpedoes and heavy a / b, converted from 356-mm shells

      Old Barham and Royal Oak - sunk by torpedoes. The reason is that in the era when these ships were built, too little attention was paid to the torpedo threat. Their PTZ does not fly with PTZ of battleships of the late period (the width of Bismarck's PTZ is as much as 5 meters)
      1. 0
        20 January 2015 13: 52
        Nagato - withstood two nuclear explosions --- and then the public of a massive nuclear strike is too afraid, the earth you see will not survive. The pelvis armored TWO blows withstood.
      2. +1
        20 January 2015 14: 49
        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        None of the battleships of the late period could be sunk by the usual (less than 1 m) bomb or attack by at least one squadron of aircraft of that time


        why are you talking about today in the article? today ammunition capacity remained at the level of the forties? What should be the armor to withstand (not talking about nuclear weapons) modern torpedoes, bombs, missiles?

        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        Battleships sunk in Pearl Harbor - the old pelvis of the 1915th year of construction


        how much was their armor inferior, well, at least the armor of the Scharnhorst or Nagato?


        Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN
        Tirpitz, Yamato, and Musashi - Hundreds of air sorties were required


        and there were also many cases when a small destroyer dodged air raids, torpedoes fired from submarines. So according to this logic, maybe it’s better to build them? moreover, the less the better)))
      3. +3
        21 January 2015 09: 47
        They say that none of the Royal Tigers was destroyed by a conventional hand grenade or a joint attack by a platoon of infantrymen. All of them are dishonestly knocked out by large-caliber guns or aircraft. (by chance of course)

        Not a single U2 was shot down by MANPADS - all of them were dishonestly and accidentally destroyed by heavy air defense systems

        Not a single elephant was obtained by honest shot from a small piece in the eye ... etc. etc.

        P / s, if it still turns out that someone managed to get an elephant using TOZ - then for sure it was an old and sick elephant (which also does not count)
        1. 0
          21 January 2015 10: 48
          Hand grenades and MANPADS - what is it for?


          For the sinking of Yamato and Musashi - it took the wings of eight aircraft carriers

          Bismarck beaten by the whole fleet

          Tirpitz shook for three years

          ... Her Majesty's Anson and Duke of York battleships, Victories, Furyes aircraft carriers, Sicher, Emperor, Pezuer, Fanser escorts, Belfast and Bellona cruisers , “Royalist”, “Sheffield”, “Jamaica”, the destroyers “Javelin”, “Virago”, “Meteor”, “Swift”, “Vigilant”, “Wakeful”, “Onslot” ... - all about 20 units under the British , Canadian and Polish flags, as well as 2 naval tankers and 13 squadrons of carrier-based aviation.

          Only in this composition in April 1944, the British ventured to approach the Alta Fjord
          1. +1
            21 January 2015 10: 49
            that it’s dishonest to stoke battleships with torpedoes and heavy bombs!
          2. +1
            21 January 2015 15: 42
            Godmother belay also destroyers with tankers! Probably wanted to douse Tirpitz with a gasoline and set fire to it? And did the fighters and, in general, drag most of the aircraft and air defense and anti-aircraft defense ships in case the battleship begins to dive like a submarine or fly? request and he couldn’t go to the mountains with rangers? this is your heroic battleship that alone ( Yes ) without any destroyers, tankers, submarines, minefields, garrisons, coastal artillery, Luftwaffe, anti-aircraft guns, etc. etc. guarded major naval forces in Norway? (i.e. skerched under their protection)

            if it weren’t for this, the British would have long ago burst right into the fjord with a pair of battleships and destroyers and nailed it
          3. 0
            25 January 2015 15: 02
            Quote: SWEET_SIXTEEN

            For the sinking of Yamato and Musashi - it took the wings of eight aircraft carriers

            do you think planes or aircraft carriers? the participation of a large group of aircraft carriers was necessary to launch a wave of aircraft compactly in a short time.
            And as for the planes - they (excluding fighters) were mainly armed with 500 kg of uncontrollable bombs, for the impact of which the decks of the LC were designed. Therefore, it took a lot. However, in order to incapacitate a ship, it is not necessary to sink it; it is enough to simply incapacitate the bulk of the equipment. Yamato got a fatal hit when he was already practically incapacitated, albeit on the go.
            As for today, to remove a ship from the game, it is enough to destroy its antenna for detecting targets that are all outside and practically unprotected. No need for monster RCC breaking through kilometers of armor. It seems to me that some kind of shrapnel charge is enough that is blown up when approaching a target or an EMP charge. Yes, the ship will not sink, but it will lose almost all combat effectiveness.
      4. 0
        25 January 2015 14: 54
        Yes, attention was paid to the torpedo threat, only the British by that time, in contrast to the Germans, had too little research (in a hurry to build) to make anti-torpedo protection effective. Too few bench tests were carried out, and there was nothing to test - the Germans had the only normal torpedo before the war after several years of serious intense and invested work. As a result, they lost a number of battleships from 1-2 torpedoes.
  7. +4
    20 January 2015 12: 15
    For a long time there were no battleships. Already missed. Then I read))
  8. predator.3
    +2
    20 January 2015 12: 57
    In my memory, the last time battleships fired in Lebanon, in 1984, the American battleship New Jersey was involved several times.
    1. +4
      20 January 2015 15: 26
      Quote: predator.3
      In my memory, the last time battleships fired in Lebanon, in 1984, the American battleship New Jersey was involved several times.

      The last time Wisconsin and Missouri shot Iraq in 1991.
      American battleships like "Iowa"
      http://topwar.ru/29654-amerikanskie-linkory-tipa-ayova.html
  9. +7
    20 January 2015 13: 02
    Interesting article. A small clarification - Novorossiysk was not a modern battleship, but just outdated, the era of the 1st World War. Modern battleships were overcome by allies and then they were cut into metal.
    And why no one except the USSR did not build ships after the war - so the winners of them after the war had so much that there was nowhere to go.
  10. avt
    +2
    20 January 2015 13: 20
    Quote: Konar
    And why no one except the USSR did not build ships after the war - so the winners of them after the war had so much that there was nowhere to go.

    The Angles "Weingard" finished off, the Franks of "Jean Bart", and the Yankees - yes, they dismantled them on the stocks of the "Montana".
    1. +1
      20 January 2015 16: 58
      The funniest thing is how they built Alaska, these weird battleship-sized battlecruisers, and then they were taken apart
      1. Aladin
        0
        20 January 2015 18: 12
        They didn’t want to get into World War 3 shortly after 2, apparently Alaska turned into Stalingrad, but they were also dismantled - they didn’t give them a war at the hands of the Russians either, only now there were people who wanted to.
  11. +6
    20 January 2015 13: 28
    I love battleships, but truth is more precious ... smile
    When the States re-opened the Iowa in the 80s, they wanted a "battleship for the price of a frigate." In reality, the modernization cost 5-6 times more (either it was considered bad, or it was sawed then well wink ) And high maintenance costs put an end to their future career.
    That is, if "by the beginning of the 1980s, somewhere in the reserve parking lot in Strelok Bay, a rusted armored skeleton of the Stalingrad battle cruiser" would have been discovered "- its commissioning would have dragged on for 5 years and as a result the fleet would receive a ship for which there were no combat missions.

    On the technical side, they were approaching in size, but significantly inferior to foreign military-style LCs in terms of security and armament

    On the technical side, the "Stalingrad" were battle cruisers and it is incorrect to compare them with foreign battleships.
  12. 0
    20 January 2015 13: 56
    A good rocket for a good battleship. Who will win?
  13. +4
    20 January 2015 14: 40
    But don’t say it, the power of battleships has always been amazing. An airborne salvo causing a tidal wave in 1,5 score - always inspired respect.
  14. +8
    20 January 2015 14: 42
    And here again the crushing volleys of the author's battleships hit the "milk" of weary criticism, and heavy armor cracks under a hail of modern anti-ship missiles commentators. Well, Oleg likes the "capital" ships (the popular curve translation of the class in the domestic press) and he likes it reasonably, mind you! I also like Cyclopean armored missile and artillery boxes, I can’t help myself. And, by the way, the comments of uv. the author about the vulnerability of modern high-tech warships stuffed with electronics at most I can’t and at the same time protected by light-alloy panels or Kevlar / metal-plastic composites are quite fair.
    I have quoted here more than once quotes from my favorite book, perhaps this one is also possible:
    And even if you were Japanese, the “japs” also then kicked our guys a bit, especially at first. Once I brought my grandfather to our vessel when I was still a cadet. Met him as a veteran hero, almost with an orchestra, allowed to climb the compartments, showed everything. He supposedly thanked, admired ... And then, already on the shore, he told me like this: “You know, man, if I had to go to Okinawa on this ship then, I would take care to write a detailed testament.” I was surprised - after all he was shown all this damn automation, missile systems, radars, lasers - and he explained: “When forty planes immediately fall on you, no laser will save. One torpedo, one bomb - and your Coca-Cola aluminum can will burn out and sink to the bottom faster than any lousy destroyer of the Second World War. ” I told this to our course commander, and he called his grandfather an old fool - not because he considered shit our box, but because he told me about it. The cadet is supposed to believe that he was on the best ship in the world, and to drown, in which case, also with this thought. So, Chin, be calm - if we are nevertheless smeared, then everything will end happily and quickly.
    (Alexey Sviridov - Fighters. Torn sky).
  15. +4
    20 January 2015 15: 13
    The author hopes that "the armor of the LK is not penetrated by the bourgeois anti-ship missiles". and you never thought that if the USSR had armored ships, the United States would create an anti-ship missile system with a sufficient warhead to destroy them in response? Look at the tanks - the eternal confrontation between armor and a projectile, and the latter, by the way, is always a winner ...
    1. 0
      25 January 2015 15: 23
      winning ???? Now the T90's security has grown to the point that without a really big gun or a new grenade launcher with a tandem warhead it’s impossible to penetrate it - at least cry, and the tank is not even heavy. Do not ignore the logistics aspects in the organization of vocational education. It seems to me that in the fight against shell-armor our not achieved good parity.
  16. +6
    20 January 2015 15: 17
    How nice to read both the article and comments, after all these annoying "Ukrainians" and hurray for patriotic slogans
  17. +3
    20 January 2015 16: 08
    "missile and artillery battleship" USS Zumwalt
    Since when did Zamvolt turn from a destroyer into a battleship?
    But staff members plan to equip the ships with electromagnetic guns with a range of 2025 kilometers of shells before 370.
    "The creators of this weapon call it the most powerful in the world: the impact force reached 33 megajoules, which was a world record for the power of a shot, exceeding the previous one by more than three times," says the British newspaper The Daily Mail. For comparison: one megajoule can be estimated, for example, the work performed by a car weighing one ton, following at a speed of 150 km / h. Thus, the projectile developed a power that exceeded this figure 33 times "
    So everything can come back in a spiral
    1. 0
      20 January 2015 17: 06
      Exactly that in a spiral) Hypersonic anti-ship missiles are already being developed on ships with electromagnetic guns.
    2. 0
      7 October 2021 17: 25
      I'm from 2021. I have bad news for you. The staff members gave up on electromagnetic guns. The program was closed
  18. +1
    20 January 2015 18: 42
    The more missiles, the more radars, electronics, the more they need a platform. So we come to a large ship. Someone bashfully calls him a destroyer (15000 tons of inoda displacement). Someone cruiser.
    You can probably separate the functions of air defense and air defense to reduce displacement, but then it will be more than one ship, and they will need to be applied in the form of a squadron or warrant.
    The stability of the ship to the effects of ammunition of various capacities is probably needed, but not as an absolute defense, but to reduce the impact. It is necessary that the ship would not drown instantly with the whole crew, but in some cases could fight for survivability and save the crew.
    1. +1
      20 January 2015 23: 03
      Quote: Sem Faraday
      The ship’s resistance to ammunition of various power is probably needed, but not as an absolute defense, but to reduce the impact

      In other words, you need to consider booking as a kind of body armor - providing a reasonable minimum of protection without trying to create something "indestructible".
  19. 0
    21 January 2015 08: 26
    Quote: avt
    BUT the leadership in the person of a particular admiral and senior officials gave his team, to put it mildly, not adequate to the developing situation. Yes, at least in time to send a command to leave the ship! So the fault is entirely on command, as in the case of Komsomolets

    Then not to the command, but by then. The order in the army was still Stalinist and for the loss of a ship of this class it was much easier to get a "tower" than for the loss of people. The admiral feared for his life, not for the life of the crew.
    1. avt
      0
      21 January 2015 09: 40
      Quote: Konar
      and. The order in the army was still Stalinist and for the loss of a ship of this class it was much easier to get a "tower" than for the loss of people.

      The orders then really were different and the demand was completely unmatched by the current one, but there was no need to catch up on horror, just look and find very specific facts, but at least the loss of a new destroyer at the Pacific Fleet due to weather conditions, there, even if Gorshkov’s memory serves, cruel conclusions simply did not exist, although according to the memoirs of Kuznetsov, Stalin painfully experienced the loss of the ship. Again, the loss of the destroyer during the war in a storm in the Northern Fleet, when the commander threw the wrecked ship in the forefront, so Kurilekh received only a penal battalion, that is, there was no one, and they left a chance to return the shoulder straps of the officer.
  20. +2
    21 January 2015 11: 25
    Quote: Konar
    The funniest thing is how they built Alaska, these weird battleship-sized battlecruisers, and then they were taken apart

    "Alaska" fit well into the pre-war concept of using the fleet, and therefore they were built. It's just that while they were built, the concept has changed. And when they got to the combat zone, the enemy essentially had no fleet left.
  21. MihailK1969
    0
    21 January 2015 23: 51
    Thank you for the article...
  22. 0
    21 February 2015 22: 40
    Why not fight, if not with anyone. Russia needs enemies to train. Only in battle is a warrior tempered. But is this really so, one can simply imagine what would happen if the imagination plays a cruel joke on you.