T-90C against the "Merkava"

449
Israeli "Chariot" left far behind

Comparison tanks different manufacturers in the conditions of combat use and daily operation leaves no choice for potential buyers or independent experts.

In the last decade of the last century, and especially now, various ratings have entered into fashion, the purpose of which is to identify the best product for its successful promotion to a potential buyer. There was no exception and the global market weapons. The comparative characteristics of airplanes, ships, cannons, small arms, etc., etc., have flooded the pages of special military publications. Comparable figures in the hundreds and even thousands.

But as they say the military, who took part in the armed conflicts of recent years, there is comparative statistics, on paper demonstrating the superiority of a particular model over its counterpart, and there is a battlefield - the present, where the technique manifests itself in different ways. It is here, and not in the virtual space of computer exercises, that victory or defeat are determined, the obvious advantage of one combat vehicle over another.

Rating party

At the end of the first five years of this century, analysts Forecast International prepared another tank rating. According to them, the best in the world at that time was the American M1A2 SEP Abrams (manufacturer - General Dynamics Corporation). He established himself during the war in Iraq. In second place was the Israeli tank Merkava Mark IV (manufacturer - Israel Ordnance Corps). In combat, it seemed to demonstrate good opportunities. The third position was taken by the Japanese "Type 90" (Mitsubishi Heavy Industries). The tank was created on the basis of the German Leopard 2 and positioned as the most high-tech. However, this machine did not pass the run-in battle, so it can only be estimated theoretically. Not tested the fire of battles and the German Leopard 2A6 (Krauss-Maffei Wegmann), and therefore was in fourth place. The fifth line went to the British Challenger 2 (Vickers Defense Systems Division), which also took a sip of fire and dust in Iraq, but did not meet some NATO standards.

T-90C against the "Merkava"Five years later, the Military Ordnance magazine (USA) replicated its view of the best tanks in the world, based on the main combat properties - mobility, firepower, armor protection. In this ranking, the places in the top five were distributed as follows: “Leopard-2А5” (Germany), М1А2 (USA), “Type 90” (Japan), “Leclerc” (France), “Challenger-2” (United Kingdom). The Russian T-90S took the seventh position, and the Israeli “Merkava Mk3” closed the top ten, leaving behind the legendary Soviet car, the T-72 tank.

A few years later, the same American magazine announced a new rating. As before, the first position was occupied by the German “Leopard-2А6”. From the second to the third place, the American M1А2 SEP flew off, passing the Japanese ahead, changing the positions of Leclerc and Challenger 2. The Russian main battle tank (MBT) T-90C was unable to break into the top five. But it was he who became the most popular machine in the international arms market in those years. And this is not a rating, but a specific fact, confirmed by real contracts. Following the Russian tank housed the "Leopard-2", "Leclerc" and M1-X2.

Fighting not rated

Let us take for comparison not only tactical and technical characteristics, but also parameters such as the novelty of tank technology, conceptual features of combat vehicles, price-quality, and, most importantly, participation in real combat operations. According to these criteria, only two cars will have to be compared - the Russian T-90C and the Israeli “Chariot” (this is how the “Merkava” is translated), more precisely, the “Merkava Mk4”. Some experts consider this tank the best in the world.

The rest either did not participate in battles (German Leopard 2A6, Japanese “Type 90”, Chinese “Type 99”, South Korean K1A1 and K2), or conceptually created in 70 – 80 of the last century. In addition, the price characteristics of the tanks M1А2, "Leclerc" and "Leopard" just going wild and can not afford the absolute majority of buyers of military equipment.

Read more about Merkava Mk4. The tank took part in the second Lebanese war in 2006. Then it was involved about 400 tanks. They were mainly used to support infantry and evacuate the wounded from the battlefield. This is the conceptual difference between the "Merkava" and the T-90С MBT, created, like all Soviet / Russian tanks, for an offensive battle and the destruction of tanks, artillery and enemy fortifications. An indestructible armor fist, sweeping everything in its path with powerful fire — that is Russian T-90C.

There is no exact information about the losses of Israeli tanks in 2006. But even according to the obviously underestimated data that was published in the Israeli newspaper Globes, one can judge about the serious damage. Of the 400 tanks involved in the operation, three modifications (Mk2, Mk3, Mk4) were hit by 52. Fifty cars were hit by anti-tank missiles, two were blown up by land mines. But according to the Lebanese military estimates, the Israel Defense Forces lost more than two times more tanks.

“Black Sabbath” for armored vehicles fell on the Saturday day of August 12 2006. During the attack of the 401 th brigade “Iquot ha-Barzel”, equipped with the latest “Merkavami Mk4”, 11 machines from 24, which took part in hostilities, were hit by anti-tank missiles. The enemy did not have heavy weapons, moreover, Israel ensured its full air supremacy. Under such conditions, even the officially published Israeli media losses can be considered very large.

From 50, 22 (44%) rocket-hit "Chariot" armor was broken through, causing 208 crew members to die from 30, 25 were injured. For comparison: in the first Lebanese campaign 1982 of the year 47 percent of Israeli tanks were pierced through, in the Yom Kippur war such injuries received 60 percent of cars. Thus, the 2006 conflict of the year showed that it is not at all necessary to pierce the Merkava armor in order to neutralize the car. To defeat a tank, just hit it. Statistics of the dead by type of tanks: in the three "Merkava Mk2" 10 people were killed, in four Mk3 - 9, in six Mk4 - 11. Hence the extremely disappointing conclusion: the majority of crew members were killed in the most modern Israeli tanks, the Merkava Mk4.

Trying to restore the tarnished reputation of their new cars, the Israelis claimed that the Merkava Mk4 tanks were destroyed exclusively by the Kornet-E ATGM. Although there are numerous cases of the defeat of Israeli tanks and earlier Russian ATGMs. Only one conclusion can be drawn from this: the widely publicized protection of the Merkava Mk4 tank can be penetrated even by outdated cumulative ammunition, not to mention modern means such as the Kontrik and Kornet-E ATGMs. Major-General Udi Adam, commander of the northern grouping of Israeli troops, praised the effectiveness of the Russian ATGM. He identified Russian anti-tank weapons as the most serious problem for Israeli tanks. The situation with the mine resistance of the Merkava Mk4 is no better. There have been cases of serious damage and even death of crew members during explosions of these tanks in mines during military operations.

Export prospects

Nevertheless, in recent years, the Israeli leadership has been pushing its Chariot into the world market, including in the dynamically developing countries of Southeast Asia (Southeast Asia). However, the top military leadership of these states, which has experience in fighting, is very cautious about such proposals. They are well aware that the Merkava Mk4 was created exclusively for use by the IDF and can be effectively used in the conditions of the Middle East theater of operations (theater of operations). There is a hot and dry climate, sandy and stony soils, limited territories, there are no impassable forests and water barriers, and tanks are delivered to trailers at the place of combat use.

How will this car behave in the tropical jungle, on soft and marshy soils, in the absence of an extensive road network with hard surface, long distances, an abundance of rivers, marshes and rice plantations? There are no answers to these questions, since the tests of the “Merkava Mk4” in such climatic zones were not conducted, there is no experience of using the Israeli tank in the difficult physiographic conditions of the Southeast Asian region.

However, you do not need to be a major analyst to understand the obvious: a heavy tank “Merkava Mk4”, whose weight is 67 tons, will get stuck right on the tower, becoming a helpless target. In addition, in this region there are very few stone bridges that can support the weight of an armored monster. And to overcome the water obstacles along the bottom of the "Merkava Mk4" can not, because it has no equipment for underwater driving.

Another thing is MBT T-90С. It is based on the operating experience and combat use of the T-72 tank and is its further development. T-72 - one of the most popular in the world, is in service with many states. Moreover, it is this machine that has unsurpassed combat experience in many local wars and armed conflicts in various climatic and physiographic conditions. MBT T-90С preserved all the best features of its predecessor, embodied the new achievements of the Russian military-technical ideas and modern developments in the domestic tank building. Therefore, the machine has gained recognition in the global market for weapons and military equipment. Before making large-scale purchases, potential customers arranged for the Russian tank the most severe survival tests in the most severe climatic conditions and training situations as close as possible to the combat ones. It was T-90C that turned out to be the most reliable and robust in the conditions of the Indian Thar desert (Rajasthan). After successfully passing the exams, Jaswant Singh, who was then Minister of Defense and Foreign Affairs of India, said that T-90C is the second after nuclear weapon deterrent factor of potential military threats.

Another important detail, which draws the attention of potential buyers. In the production of the Israeli tank Merkava Mk4 28 percent of components are imported from abroad, including such important units as the engine and transmission. The MT883 engine components are manufactured by MTU (Germany), assembled under license from General Dynamics Land Systems in the USA, and then exported to Israel as a GD883 propulsion system. Transmission RK325 produced by Renk (Germany).

This puts the production and export of Israeli tanks in a tough dependence on several foreign suppliers from different countries at once, which creates additional problems for buyers. For example, repair of the engine or transmission should be carried out at the factory - the manufacturer of these components, which increases the repair time and its cost. In addition, any change in the political vector may lead to a ban on the supply of spare parts, equipment and ammunition. As a result, the tank becomes a pile of scrap metal.

Compare and think

An unbiased look at military equipment allows us to make objective conclusions. Let's compare the main characteristics of two tanks.

A characteristic feature of the tank "Merkava Mk4" is the layout with the location of the engine compartment (MTO) in front of the hull with an offset to the starboard. To his left is located the department of management. According to the developers, this constructive solution provides additional protection for the crew. But the control compartment is not covered by the engine and transmission on the left side. In addition, due to the shift of the workplace of the driver to the left side and the slight angle of inclination of the upper armor sheet MTO, the view to the right is very limited. This makes it harder to control the machine, for example when maneuvering between obstacles.

Placement in the aft part of the Merkava Mk4 tank compartment for infantrymen, stretchers with wounded or an additional set of ammunition significantly increased the internal reserved volume. It is twice the booked volume of Russian T-90C. Such internal volume is very difficult to protect against modern anti-tank weapons, even with a weight of almost 70 tons. An attempt to bring the protection of the "Chariots" to the level of T-90C will lead to an even greater increase in the weight of the Israeli machine.

In turn, the T-90C has a classic layout with a rear-mounted engine compartment. Thanks to the optimal layout solutions and the use of the automatic loader, the tank has the minimum volume reserved, which allowed us to provide protection at the level of modern requirements for the weight of the 47,5 ton machine.

The location of the driver of the T-90C in the center gives him a good overview and the ability to accurately control the tank in difficult driving conditions. The crew of the Russian tank consists of three, not four, as in the "Chariot". The entire crew of the T-90C is landing / disembarking in 8 – 12 seconds. On the “Merkava Mk4” this takes much more time, since the loader does not have its own hatch, and the commander’s is so heavy and massive that the drive is used to open it.

The firepower of the Merkava Mk4 is provided by a range of weapons, including 120-mm cannon-launcher, 7,62-mm and 12,7-mm machine guns. The latter can be replaced with an 40-mm automatic grenade launcher. Installing an 40-mm grenade launcher confirms the main purpose of the tank - the fight against enemy manpower.

The T-90C tank is armed with an 125-mm high-accuracy cannon-launcher, paired 7,62-mm and anti-aircraft 12,7-mm machine guns.

The loading of the tank gun "Merkava Mk4" manual. In this case, 10 shells are placed in an electric drum mechanism, supplying shells to the loader, the remaining 36 shots are in fireproof containers in the stern of the hull. The absence of an automatic loader reduces the rate of fire, and also increases the internal reserve volume, which again significantly increases the mass of the tank.

The loading of the T-90 tank gun is automatic. The presence of an automatic loader increases the combat rate of fire of the tank to eight rounds per minute, which exceeds the capabilities of the Mk4 Merkava. The main thing is that this rate of fire does not depend on fatigue, injury, and the psychological state of the loader.

The fire control systems of both tanks are similar in composition and combat properties and include combined (day / night) sights with stabilization of the aiming line, two-plane weapon stabilizer, automatic target tracking, digital ballistic computer, guided weapons complex.

The security of the Merkava Mk4, like the T-90C, is multi-layered. It is provided with armor, an automated smoke screening system, active protection.

For a car with an internal volume, as on the Mk4 Merkava, it is impossible to provide all-round protection against modern anti-tank ammunition with passive means alone. This was confirmed by the experience of combat use. As a result, an active protection system was installed on the tank.

Strengthening the protection against damage from above led to an increase in the size of the Merkava Mk4. As a result, the tank became significantly higher, which markedly reduced its camouflage properties, increased the area of ​​the frontal and lateral projections.

The smaller size of the T-90С tank, its height and the frontal projection area make it difficult to detect the vehicle on the battlefield due to better use of the protective properties of the terrain and significantly reduce the likelihood of being hit by the opposing vehicle. For the T-90C, a Cape camouflage set has been developed, which significantly reduces the visibility of the machine in the optical, thermal and radar ranges, and its masking properties increase accordingly.

Another plus of the T-90C is the dozer blade, thanks to which, in 20 – 30 minutes, a tank is capable of digging a full-sized trench without aids. On the "Merkava Mk4" this is not.

The analysis of the armor protection of two tanks allows to conclude about the superiority of the T-90С tank over the “Merkava Mk4” in terms of the ballistic resistance of the hull and turret due to the spaced armor and the quality of the armor plates, as well as the presence of dynamic protection. Dynamic protection, which is equipped with a tank T-90С, is by far the best in the world. Its feature is high efficiency against both cumulative and armor-piercing-caliber ammunition.

Protection of the Merkava Mk4 tank is primarily aimed at reducing the destructive effect of cumulative ammunition. This once again confirms the fact that the Israeli "Chariot" is designed for use in specific conditions and against a specific enemy - manpower armed with an ATGM and RPG. In the conduct of hostilities against tanks, armed with powerful armor-piercing-sifting projectiles, the protection of the Merkava Mk4 is ineffective.

As for the automated system of setting smoke screens, which warns about laser homing and provides automatic shooting of the smoke bomb to the source of the beam, both machines are equipped with it.

The dimensions and weight of the Merkava Mk4 significantly limit both operational tactical and strategic mobility. The Israeli tank is equipped with a 1500 horsepower engine. The T-90 has horsepower 1000 engine power. But if you decompose the horsepower to the weight of the tanks, their capabilities are comparable. Increased power leads to increased fuel consumption. Cruising on the asphalt of both tanks is about 500 kilometers. But the “Chariot” will eat 1400 liters of fuel, and T-90C - only 1200. The military understands that in combat conditions the difference is significant. In addition, the Merkava Mk4 only works on diesel. The engine of the T-90C is multi-fuel, which gives obvious advantages in wartime.

Not everyone knows that the Merkava Mk4 is equipped with a spring suspension. When driving on rough terrain, it limits the speed of the car and the accuracy of shooting on the move, since the body vibrations seriously affect the stabilization error when you hover your weapon. On the armored vehicles of the main armies of the world, this type of suspension is almost never used.

The T-90С tank is equipped with a torsion bar suspension, which provides high smoothness, the ability to move over rough terrain at high speeds, and increased shooting accuracy on the move. The automatic gearshift increases the control comfort, reduces the physical loads and fatigue of the driver, especially on long marches when moving in a column.

T-90C is distinguished by its highest reliability. This is one of the principles guided by Russian engineers when creating tanks. Our tanks have a huge reserve for modernization and are distinguished by the simplicity of crew and technical personnel training, high operational characteristics, which significantly reduces the requirements for the level of training of operators.

And finally, in terms of the “price-quality” parameter, the Russian T-90С left far behind not only the Merkava Mk4, but also tanks from other leading manufacturers. Therefore became the most sold in foreign markets.
Read more: h
449 comments
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  1. +43
    27 December 2014 06: 25
    A good advertising article, I hope that this is really so.

    1. +97
      27 December 2014 06: 37
      Merkava created exclusively for Israel and its desert, T-90 is ready to fight anywhere, In any weather and in any area !!!
      1. +24
        27 December 2014 23: 53
        Carrot-shtetl tank. The Jews made it for themselves, and he suits them. Amen.
        1. +1
          29 December 2014 16: 02
          Amen .... of course ....
      2. Gluxar_
        +37
        28 December 2014 01: 50
        Quote: Samaritan
        Merkava created exclusively for Israel and its desert, T-90 is ready to fight anywhere, In any weather and in any area !!!

        In addition, it is important to consider performance and maintenance costs.
        In this case, the T-72 / T-90 simply does not have competitors.
        In general, the article is not entirely correct. To compare tanks in "naked" is a profanation. The military doctrines and theater of operations on which the machine will operate are important.
        T-72/90 is still a breakthrough tank for a large-scale war. Hence all its advantages. However, being in a dense building under enemy fire, perhaps many would want to be separated from the enemy by 70 tons of armor, rather than 46.
        I will tell a slightly different truth. Not a tankman, but an infantryman. When the battle is on, it’s all the same what helps you, Merkava or t-72. It is important that there is something. With a tank is always better than without it. And here such an indicator as price and maintainability is important.
        Analysis of the use of T-72 in Syria shows that the tank is still relevant and tenacious. This is the workhorse of the army and it saves many lives.
        I think the epithet "best selling" still characterizes the car of the leader in the world arena.
        1. +10
          28 December 2014 20: 38
          Quote: Gluxar_
          This is an army workhorse

          neither subtract nor add. The war is won not by the prodigy, but by massive, easily replenished weapons.
          Py sy- (purely my opinion, and does not apply to the small arms) weapons are able to make Israel, Russia and South Africa.
          1. +2
            28 December 2014 21: 43
            Quote: fennekRUS
            and massive, easily replenished weapons.
            Py sy- (purely my opinion, and does not apply to the small arms) weapons are able to make Israel, Russia and South Africa.

            And what kind of weapon, if not secret?
            Yes, still _ Do not remind me the date of the appearance of the state of Israel?
          2. Russkiy53
            +1
            29 December 2014 01: 24
            and the crew of the tank, is it an "easily renewable weapon", or what;)?
            1. +3
              29 December 2014 14: 11
              Quote: Russkiy53
              and the crew of the tank, is it an "easily renewable weapon", or what;)?

              Or how, in fact, the most NOT EASILY replenished resource! He is also a long-acting one.
              hi
        2. 0
          29 December 2014 01: 07
          bold plus
        3. tkhonov66
          +5
          29 December 2014 13: 24
          "...
          However, being in a dense building under enemy fire, perhaps many would want to be separated from the enemy by 70 tons of armor, rather than 46
          ..."
          .
          - vaasche, the armor "separates from the enemy" is by no means WEIGHT, but THICKNESS (equivalent) ...
          .
          And the "chariot" "fattens" the weight of the armor, not by its thickness, but by its AREA ... - or, as the article calls it, the "armor volume" which is significantly larger relative to the "T-90" ...
          - Well, figuratively speaking, a tank is an armored chest. And "T-90" is a SMALL armored chest, and "chariot" is a LARGE armored chest. And the fact that a large chest is heavier than a small one - ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT SPEAK ABOUT THE GREATER THICKNESS OF ITS (armor) WALLS.
          - set out available?
          8-)
          .
          - Well, a large "reserve volume" (a large volume of an armored chest - that is, its large WEIGHT) - somehow does not add peace of mind to its inhabitants "in dense urban development"
          8-))
          .
          Well, D-DDD Think-thirst dada ... Well sometimes.
          8-)))
          1. +1
            29 December 2014 14: 08
            Quote: tkhonov66
            - Well, a large "reserve volume" (a large volume of an armored chest - that is, its large WEIGHT) - somehow does not add peace of mind to its inhabitants "in dense urban development"

            But this is another question. Because the comfort of stay is higher and the fatigue of the crew is lower
          2. The comment was deleted.
          3. +1
            29 December 2014 14: 24
            Quote: tkhonov66
            perhaps many would want to be separated from the enemy 70 tons of armor, rather than 46

            Well, such gentlemen would rather think, not about the number of tens of tons, but about tens of kilometers.
            In fact, the contrast between our T-xx and Israeli M-x, for someone to avoid the terrible _
        4. +4
          29 December 2014 15: 13
          Quote: Gluxar_
          In general, the article is not entirely correct. To compare tanks in "naked" is a profanation.

          I agree. Invalid.
          Killed the phrase:
          However, one does not need to be a major analyst to understand the obvious: the heavy tank Merkava Mk4, weighing 67 tons, will bog down the tower itself, becoming a helpless target.
          -It doesn’t matter with the author either with analytics or I studied poorly at school.

          For patency, ultimately, it is not mass that is important, but the specific pressure on the ground.
          1. -1
            29 December 2014 16: 04
            right kg / cm2 ... the area of ​​the tracks will solve this problem ...
          2. +7
            29 December 2014 20: 18
            Quote: iConst
            For patency, ultimately, it is not mass that is important, but the specific pressure on the ground.

            Well, the Germans smashed the tracks on the "Tiger" by as much as 80 cm wide to reduce the pressure on the ground, and the tracks began to weigh 6 tons, and this is the same weight of the tank itself, which presses on the ground. And that's not all: for the tank to fit on a railway platform specially created for transporting the Tiger across bridges, since no bridge could withstand it, the Tiger was equipped with transport tracks for roads and railway platforms, a tank They drove onto special protrusions of the platform, between which the combat tracks were laid, and in order to put the tracks in their place, a crane was needed. So we have a math problem: How much iron does Germany need to smelt so that one company of Tiger tanks can fight for more than two weeks, taking into account the fact that according to the plant's standards, one day of prophylaxis and regulation of tank systems is needed for three days of fighting?
            Answer: it is impossible to infinitely increase the weight of the tank, since the weight of the tracks will exceed the weight of the light tank.
          3. 0
            29 December 2014 21: 25
            not only the specific pressure, but also the suspension with a trolley, it’s enough to recall German tanks whose rinks were simply clogged with dirt and refused to go, and there were comparable characteristics there.
          4. 0
            12 December 2017 19: 27
            Quote: iConst
            The author either does not care with analytics, or he studied poorly at school.

            For patency, ultimately, it is not mass that is important, but the specific pressure on the ground.

            Ground pressure: T-90S - 0,98 kg / cm2
            Merkava-4 - 1,12 kg / cm2
            Well, there are not so many bridges under 70 tons in the world. Anything less than under 50 tons.
        5. Jovanny
          +8
          29 December 2014 17: 46
          The best defense of the tank is the infantry) tanks must accompany the infantry. The conflict in Ukraine showed that without infantry and in the presence of ATGMs, any tank is set on fire. Let it take 1-2 tpura on the usual one, and on the steep 2-3-4 ... it will still be hit. According to the ghoul, he can be shot slowly.
        6. +1
          29 December 2014 20: 03
          You just need to remember the tank proverb of 43-44 years: "Armor is bullshit, our tanks are fast, wow."
          1. +3
            29 December 2014 20: 14
            Quote: shasherin_pavel
            tank proverb 43-44 years: "Armor is garbage, our tanks are fast, wow."

            And what they did, the Soviet soldiers were not given a choice of a tank.
            1. +1
              29 December 2014 23: 55
              Yes, yes, the current in the totalitarian Red Army did not provide a choice, but in the Ruin Armed Forces a choice: if you want - take "Oplot", if you want - T64, if you want - "Merkava" fellow As in all democratic armies. What clowns in embroideries are funny when they try to be clever. And when they don’t try ...
              1. +1
                30 December 2014 00: 31
                Quote: Boatswain_Palych
                So yeah, the current in the totalitarian Red Army did not provide a choice

                At least you recognize something.
                Quote: Boatswain_Palych
                What clowns in embroideries are funny,

                envy embroidered?
                1. +3
                  30 December 2014 01: 54
                  Quote: Kars

                  At least you recognize something.

                  A tank is actually not a cheap unit and it is somehow strange to offer a choice in conditions of shortage in the war. Especially in the fall of 41 years or in the Caucasus in the 42nd.
                  Or do you think that the Germans had a special choice? I know only a few examples. For example, PzIII met on Kursk, whose crew did not want to switch to a new car.
            2. +1
              30 December 2014 01: 49
              Well, there was still some choice. They fought on Churchill - by the way, they had enough frontal protection, there were all kinds of valentines and Shermans, all the same better than T60.
              1. +1
                30 December 2014 02: 03
                Quote: yehat
                A tank is actually not a cheap unit and offer a choice in conditions of shortage

                Here it was that the tank crews had no choice but to compose songs about the vehicles on which they were fighting, and by tactical actions compensate 45 mm forehead on the battlefields where the Germans massively deployed PAK-40
                1. +3
                  31 December 2014 13: 49
                  Germans massively used Pak 40 only from 42 years old.
                  at this time, the T34’s entry into the army was already significant.
                  however, it would be wrong to say that the pak40 was guaranteed to hit the t34 even of the first series - rebounds were common, and it’s difficult to get into the tank on the go or on the defensive.
                  1. +1
                    31 December 2014 14: 20
                    Quote: yehat
                    The Germans massively used the 40 pack only from the 42 of the year

                    Quote: shasherin_pavel
                    You just need to remember the tank proverb of 43-44 years: "Armor is bullshit, our tanks are fast, wow"



                    Quote: yehat
                    that pak40 was guaranteed to hit t34 even of the first series - rebounds were commonplace,

                    the first series, in principle, did not live up to the appearance of PAK-40. and frequent rebound is at great distances. But of course, nobody canceled the luck.
            3. 0
              12 December 2017 19: 31
              Quote: Kars
              Kars December 29, 2014 20:14 p.m. ↑
              Quote: shasherin_pavel
              tank proverb 43-44 years: "Armor is garbage, our tanks are fast, wow."

              And what they did, the Soviet soldiers were not given a choice of a tank.

              Was the development of the T-43. It differed from the T-34 with enhanced armor and, accordingly, less mobility and maneuverability. Tankers refused him.
              The series went T-34-85
      3. Portoss
        +4
        28 December 2014 15: 29
        No wonder Merkava is banned for export. In real combat conditions, she will immediately be dishonored.
        1. Portoss
          +2
          29 December 2014 00: 30
          Interesting. All Jews minus me. Are you ready to answer? Is there an answer? or just put the vile cons?
        2. 0
          29 December 2014 20: 21
          And who forbade her? And who wants to buy it?
      4. +7
        29 December 2014 15: 29
        Only "stupid people" are still trying to compare merkva and T-90.
        1. 0
          29 December 2014 20: 00
          Quote: Tanarri
          Only "stupid people" are still trying to compare

          I agree. From the category of children's disputes: who will defeat a karate or a boxer?
        2. +1
          29 December 2014 20: 09
          These "stupid people" for their country will not only cast MERKAVA with potatoes for their country, but will put any aggressor on 4 dice
      5. +1
        29 December 2014 16: 01
        Let's also say about "Kalashnikov" ....
      6. 0
        29 December 2014 20: 01
        Comparing the T-90 and the Merkava is simply not decent. The Merkava was originally created to fight "terrorists", not tanks, then only the cannon surprises ... in general, the Merkava does not have a concept, either an infantry fighting vehicle with a tank gun, or a tank with an armored vehicle. The T-90 can be compared with the "leopard" or "Abrams", but not with the "War Chariot".
        1. +2
          30 December 2014 05: 30
          Quote: shasherin_pavel
          ... Merkava was originally created to fight "terrorists", not tanks, then only the cannon surprises ...

          Initially, Merkava was sharpened to fight on diverse sectors from mountains to desert against superior enemy tank forces
    2. katsin
      +2
      27 December 2014 07: 34
      During the second Lebanese war, 2 merkava 4 were irretrievably lost, one after being struck with an explosive device of 100 kg under the bottom, and the second after multiple ATGM hits. In most cases, wrecked tanks returned to the unit up to 72 hours. I personally saw a tank in which the engine took over the Cornet and saved the crew. After 2 days, the tank returned to the brigade after replacing the engine. In addition, I ask you to note that then the tanks were not equipped with KAZ Vetrovka. Since 2010, all attempts to knock Merkava 4 with the help of Cornet have been unsuccessful. By the way, KAZ immediately gives out the coordinates of the firing ATGM, so this still ended sadly for some shooters. Regarding the T-90, I’ll say this: I would prefer that Egypt and the Saudis have T-90, and not Abrams
      1. +39
        27 December 2014 07: 53
        Where does the data come from?
        Darth Vader in the sacred land not seen? hi
        1. +1
          29 December 2014 20: 11
          but he was there ..))))
      2. +84
        27 December 2014 08: 03
        Quote: Katsin
        Regarding the T-90, I’ll say this: I would prefer that Egypt and the Saudis have T-90, and not Abrams

        Regarding the Merkava, I will say this: I would prefer that they were instead of the Leopards and Abrams at NATO in Europe. I’m just asleep and I see a tank regiment forcing on the "Merkava" of the Southern Bug in the conditions of the use of weapons of mass destruction, without aviation support. laughing
        1. +1
          27 December 2014 08: 11
          Quote: i80186
          Quote: Katsin
          Regarding the T-90, I’ll say this: I would prefer that Egypt and the Saudis have T-90, and not Abrams

          Regarding the Merkava, I will say this: I would prefer that they were instead of the Leopards and Abrams at NATO in Europe. I’m just asleep and I see a tank regiment forcing on the "Merkava" of the Southern Bug in the conditions of the use of weapons of mass destruction, without aviation support. laughing

          why without aviation support?
          1. +41
            27 December 2014 08: 15
            Quote: atalef

            why without aviation support?

            An interesting question is, what kind of aviation can this fly in the conditions of the permanent use of atomic weapons? FY-35 galleries laughing
            1. +1
              27 December 2014 08: 18
              Quote: i80186
              Quote: atalef

              why without aviation support?

              An interesting question is, what kind of aviation can this fly in the conditions of the permanent use of atomic weapons? FY-35 galleries laughing

              just like the Mercavs force the Bug, when using WMD, what do we smoke?
              1. +56
                27 December 2014 08: 28
                Quote: atalef
                just like the Mercavs force the Bug, when using WMD, what do we smoke?

                Well, you just wanted your potential opponents to have a T-90, (well, actually this is a T-72) it is for Europe. Here we have no desert in Europe, here we have all kinds of Abrams / Leopards and especially Merkava out of place.
                And if there is a war, then the situation with forcing a water barrier is every 50 km, and be sure, I emphasize this, be sure to use at least tactical nuclear and high-altitude thermonuclear explosions. So I would like for the already miserable, for such a war, the Ambrams / Leopards to be changed to even more miserable, for the war in Europe, Merkava.
                1. +1
                  27 December 2014 08: 35
                  Quote: i80186
                  Quote: atalef
                  just like the Mercavs force the Bug, when using WMD, what do we smoke?

                  Well, you just wanted your potential opponents to have a T-90, (well, actually this is a T-72) it is for Europe. Here we have no desert in Europe, here we have all kinds of Abrams / Leopards and especially Merkava out of place.
                  And if there is a war, then the situation with forcing a water barrier is every 50 km, and be sure, I emphasize this, be sure to use at least tactical nuclear and high-altitude thermonuclear explosions. So I would like for the already miserable, for such a war, the Ambrams / Leopards to be changed to even more miserable, for the war in Europe, Merkava.

                  Our potential opponents had the entire T line - which the USSR sold them (at that time the most modern tanks) - do you know the result of all wars?
                  I especially liked it - about the use of high-altitude thermonuclear explosions - why would tanks be needed?
                  Or do you think that with the mass use of nuclear weapons - the only thing that will have value is (T) -?
                  Isn't that you (by chance) the author of the article? The level is similar.
                  1. +27
                    27 December 2014 08: 44
                    Our potential opponents had the entire T line - which the USSR sold to them (at that time the most modern tanks) - do you know the result of all wars?

                    Again, well, our equipment is not adapted without war to fight often. Well, or at least without complete superiority in the air.
                    Quote: atalef
                    I especially liked it - about the use of high-altitude thermonuclear explosions - why would tanks be needed?

                    VYAV - actually a means of air defense and incapacitation of electronic equipment. This is to bring air superiority to zero and break the connection, while the tanks easily and effortlessly reach the airfields.
                    Quote: atalef
                    Or do you think that with the mass use of nuclear weapons - the only thing that will have value is (T) -?

                    Well, not only tanks, in general, equipment adapted to operate in such conditions, for example, in the army we have 90% +. Etozhzhzh for a reason yes? winked
                    1. +6
                      27 December 2014 08: 46
                      Quote: i80186
                      Well, or at least without complete superiority in the air.

                      And who is capable?
                      1. +14
                        27 December 2014 08: 49
                        Quote: Kars
                        And who is capable?

                        In the desert - no one. But in Europe there are more forests / cities and in general all sorts of uneven areas. Here we can partisan with whole armies, though not everywhere.
                      2. +14
                        27 December 2014 08: 55
                        Quote: i80186
                        But in Europe, forests / cities and generally all sorts of uneven terrain

                        It was in the Second World War. Now with thermal imagers and computer processing of streaming video, etc., passive masking has lost a lot in efficiency.
                      3. +24
                        27 December 2014 08: 57
                        Quote: Kars
                        It was in the Second World War. Now with thermal imagers and computer processing of streaming video, etc., passive masking has lost a lot in efficiency.

                        Yes, yes, it manifests itself particularly clearly in the Ukrainian conflict. Very bright during the assault on the airport of Donetsk. smile
                      4. +2
                        27 December 2014 08: 58
                        Quote: i80186
                        . Very bright during the assault on the airport of Donetsk.

                        Was modern aviation used there?
                      5. +12
                        27 December 2014 09: 02
                        Quote: Kars

                        Was modern aviation used there?

                        And could she? Air defense is not asleep. smile
                        Or do you need an air raid of 500 napalm bombers to start with?
                      6. +2
                        27 December 2014 09: 08
                        Quote: i80186
                        And could she?

                        We have a question about military operations in the absence of air superiority.
                        Or with the complete superiority of the opposing side.
                      7. +13
                        27 December 2014 09: 14
                        Quote: Kars
                        We have a question about military operations in the absence of air superiority.
                        Or with the complete superiority of the opposing side.

                        Well then, the complete destruction of the city will help. But the forest is still insurmountable Belarus and Vietnam are good examples.
                      8. +3
                        27 December 2014 09: 18
                        Quote: i80186
                        Well then, the complete destruction of the city will help. But the forest is still insurmountable Belarus and Vietnam are good examples.

                        Sitting in cities is a complete loss of initiative,
                        Forest - since the days of Vietnam, technical development tools have probably taken three seven-mile steps.
                        Well, I have not heard about the widespread use of tanks in partisan warfare.
                      9. +19
                        27 December 2014 09: 25
                        Quote: Kars
                        Well, I have not heard about the widespread use of tanks in guerrilla warfare

                        M551 Sheridan, M60, M48, T-55, PT-76, M24 - this is Vietnam. Sheridans alone were already 300 pieces. In general, thousands of pieces were used.
                        Funny song wink

                      10. +3
                        27 December 2014 09: 31
                        Quote: i80186
                        M551 Sheridan, M60, M48, T-55, PT-76, M24 is Vietnam

                        And what is Vietnam? Remind me how much the USSR transferred air defense systems to Vietnam. And the war in Vietnam is not a pure partisan war.
                        Quote: i80186
                        There were only 300 pieces of the lined Sheridans.

                        From Vietnamese aviation?
                      11. +26
                        27 December 2014 11: 36
                        Guys, let's take a look at this from the other side.
                        Frankly speaking, I do not favor the "Chosen of God" at all. Basically. And you can treat their statements about tank hegemony as you like ... BUT! What's wrong with the fact that if the line of our "T -..." is in some way inferior to the "Merkavas"? In my opinion, nothing.
                        This is the same kick in the ass that will give us (goyim, hehe laughing ) the opportunity to do my best and I'm sure it will succeed in the next Yes
                      12. +36
                        27 December 2014 12: 48
                        Gentlemen-comrades, minus for health, but at least indicate for what - for "God's Chosen" or for an opinion on tanks laughing
                        If for the first - yes, this is my opinion, based on elementary historical justice in rejection of fraud.
                        If for the second - guys, let's turn on the head. If everything is RUSSIAN - it means necessarily the BEST? The best product is, inter alia, the result of the ability to take into account unsuccessful or not the best decisions in something. And in our tanks (with all their undoubted and high advantages) they also are. They put their heads - the product will turn out even better.
                        Everything has its time. And the result (tank) is effort and effort. Don't be like the "exceptional" tales of the Americans. And the "Chosen of God" laughing
                      13. +25
                        27 December 2014 19: 05
                        The Merkava is a tank, sharpened exclusively for its own theater of operations, and it is incorrect to compare it with ANY modern MBT. The same "Challenger" or T-72 universal vehicles. It is interesting to see how the Merkava will drown in Russian mud up the tower in autumn. Each vehicle is good for its army and is created taking into account the wishes and requirements of the military.
                      14. +1
                        29 December 2014 16: 18
                        Nishtyak .. a real look at things ... Live and improve ... And you will be close to ideal .. And about tanks too ....
                      15. +1
                        29 December 2014 20: 56
                        If a tank has already been put into service and it does not work like a tank, these are our guys who were burnt alive. The T-4 was good for everyone in '41, but the cannon is short-barreled and absolutely unsuitable to harm our T-34s at the range of our F-32 and F-34 cannons. The L-11 on the KV made it possible to get closer a little, but the KV armor made it possible to approach 200 meters, even onboard. This is what a "small" omission meant for the Germans, a short shell case, for the convenience of the loader and a short-barreled gun. That was a kick in the ass that forced the Germans to develop "Panthers" and "Tigers" against our medium tank.
                      16. 0
                        27 December 2014 13: 56
                        T-72b3 is not inferior, and pereplyivaet western
                      17. +4
                        29 December 2014 12: 21
                        Quote: Zheka40
                        T-72b3

                        T-72b3 is a very dubious option. There were many articles on this subject. This is an alternative, so to speak, until the "armata" goes to the troops. The same T-90MS looks much more interesting.
                      18. Jet
                        +6
                        27 December 2014 17: 56
                        what are you ?! here such comments do not pass))
                      19. +5
                        28 December 2014 14: 43
                        there is no catastrophe in that merkava is somehow better.
                        Trouble is that they compare warm with soft, because they have now removed the division into light, medium and heavy tanks.
                        only MBT remained, and comparing a 70-ton with a 47-ton is also not entirely correct.
                        Each technique has its own tasks, the merkava is designed for one thing, our little ones are for another, and if you judge, the merkavs are not suitable for our tasks, then they can be considered shit at all, but if you travel to Israel, a miracle happens, with new ground Merkava becomes an excellent tank. and our lighter and more maneuverable teschki become just weak cars (relatively).
                        to each his own .
                      20. 0
                        29 December 2014 21: 05
                        Quote: just explo
                        but if you travel to Israel

                        Didn't our tanks serve in Kushka? Weren't they used in the steppe? Better let's take a "Merkava" to us on the SKolsky peninsula, with its boulders and swamps. Yes, he will not pass ten kilometers along the Arctic Trophy highway, but how can he get him out of the swamp? Build a railroad track to a swamp and drag a railroad crane? Thank God, the USSR had everything: the Arctic, swamps and deserts.
                      21. +2
                        29 December 2014 16: 15
                        Definitely ... Absolutely ideal in the world does not exist ... But !!! It is possible and necessary to strive for ideal .. Automatic AK-Perfection ... And the T-90 tanks and further also improve, as long as all kinds of pindddos exist there ... Amen ....
                      22. wanderer_032
                        +3
                        28 December 2014 09: 10
                        Quote: Kars
                        And what is Vietnam? Remind me how much the USSR transferred air defense systems to Vietnam. And the war in Vietnam is not a pure partisan war.


                        You can also remember who and to whom, how much and what was transmitted during the war, for example, in Afghanistan (1979-1989), the war in Yugoslavia in the 90s, etc., etc.
                        And you can see that all these armed conflicts were not really partisan, or rather not partisan at all.
                      23. wanderer_032
                        +3
                        28 December 2014 13: 54
                        Quote: wanderer_032
                        You can also remember who and to whom, how much and what was transmitted during the war, for example, in Afghanistan (1979-1989), the war in Yugoslavia in the 90s, etc., etc.
                        And you can see that all these armed conflicts were not really partisan, or rather not partisan at all.


                        It is evident that someone is very worried about Matrasia, since the cons have flown. Moreover, the mattress is also underlined stealthily.
                        Not a single argument in his objection, did not lead.
                      24. +4
                        27 December 2014 16: 50
                        And who would let her fly?
                      25. -5
                        27 December 2014 17: 02
                        Yes!!! Here Ukraine is better at keeping silent. recourse
                      26. 0
                        29 December 2014 21: 09
                        A MANPADS of New Russia can say? They have not yet registered the flag in international annals.
                      27. +12
                        27 December 2014 18: 05
                        I confirm. During the exercises, we "defended" the object, and the reconnaissance had to make a raid. For us were drones (by the way Israeli) with thermal imagers. Not one group passed. Of course, we understood that the Jews "smelt" old stuff to us and it became somehow sad. We all have not a bad combat experience and immediately thought that they could use modern means of detection and how to fight them.
                      28. 0
                        29 December 2014 16: 13
                        Quote: Kars
                        Now with thermal imagers and computer processing of streaming video, etc., passive masking has lost a lot in efficiency.

                        Therefore, overhead active elements have already appeared that distort the silhouette and quickly change color. In addition: changing the infrared and radio frequency "snapshot" of the machine.
                      29. +3
                        29 December 2014 18: 13
                        Quote: iConst
                        : change the infrared and radio frequency "snapshot" of the machine

                        there is no need to change much sense so that they would not be seen. otherwise a dozen of some strange silhouettes in the forest can cause an unexpected hurricane.
                      30. +1
                        29 December 2014 18: 43
                        Quote: Kars
                        there is no need to change much meaning

                        Kanechna! Transparent in all spectra.

                        It is still not possible to hide tens of kilowatts of engine heat.
                        And the point is that modern ammunition has in memory "photos" of their targets in optical, infrared and other spectra. That is why the "smart" ammunition will fly past its tank and not react.

                        And if the PTR will throw itself at every suspicious spot - and the flag in both hands! laughing
                      31. +1
                        29 December 2014 18: 58
                        Quote: iConst
                        And if the PTR will throw itself at every suspicious spot - and the flag in both hands!

                        Yes, it’s better to rush than then to rake, and next to the front line everything is suspicious.
                      32. 0
                        29 December 2014 21: 12
                        Then the time will come to recall the "false airfields" in the years of World War II. I threw false traps for drones in all forests and let them beat as much as they want on false targets.
                      33. 0
                        29 December 2014 20: 44
                        I'll put on a motorcycle helmet, overalls on a padding polyester ... it will be hot, especially in summer, but what will your thermal imager show? And if you also cover yourself with a raincoat, then even a "Merkava" or a "Leclerc" will drive up to me a hundred meters, then I will knock on his stern from an RPG: "Is there anyone alive in the tank?"
                        "No, no! No longer!"
                        The main thing is to know what works against you and think a little with your head how to get around this.
                      34. +1
                        29 December 2014 20: 54
                        Quote: shasherin_pavel
                        And if you still cover with a raincoat tent

                        Now very sensitive thermal imagers if that.
                      35. VAF
                        VAF
                        +33
                        27 December 2014 09: 06
                        Quote: Kars
                        And who is capable?


                        I think where I disappeared, and then look ... "tank theme" and what wassat good
                        "Specialists" against "patriots" wassat
                        Now I’m taking Sobakin away (Fortunately, the slush and mud have ended. The temperature has fallen to minus 3 at night and snow has fallen .. so we have a HOLIDAY, we won’t have to swim).
                        I'll take the "seed" and I ... in the first row !!! drinks
                        But without comments, only with +, drinks

                      36. +10
                        27 December 2014 09: 16
                        Hello Sergey, Happy New Year !!!
                        I guess you're right, you need to get seeds wassat
                      37. VAF
                        VAF
                        0
                        27 December 2014 09: 25
                        Quote: atalef
                        Hello Sergey, Happy New Year !!!


                        Hi Sasha! drinks Mutually and from the heart fellow drinks soldier !
                        Everything ran away, otherwise it will get me nuts because of a pause .. already half an hour ago Sobakin promised wassat
                      38. +4
                        27 December 2014 10: 24
                        Happy New Year, Sergey! hi I'm also in the front row, with a plate of fruit. On war online of this article, we paid as much as two comments. laughing
                      39. VAF
                        VAF
                        +11
                        27 December 2014 15: 36
                        Quote: Aron Zaavi
                        I'm also in the front row, with a plate of fruit. On war online of this article, two comments were made


                        Happy: Aron! drinks
                        I do not know, for my "taste" the article "fire". Because. there are really a lot of real tankers on our site, and the topic that the "gods of war" and "mother" infantry, army aviation can "catch up" to, army aviation. frontline. even moremans .. even they have (or have been) water tanks , so I always read with interest drinks
                        And all the pluses .. from pleasure drinks
                      40. +2
                        28 December 2014 09: 26
                        vaf (4) Yesterday, 09:06 a.m. ↑
                        I think where I disappeared, and then look ... "tank theme" and what
                        "Specialists" against "patriots"
                        Now I’m taking Sobakin away (Fortunately, the slush and mud have ended. The temperature has fallen to minus 3 at night and snow has fallen .. so we have a HOLIDAY, we won’t have to swim).
                        I'll take the "seed" and I ... in the first row !!!
                        But without comments, only with +,

                        atalef (7) Yesterday, 09:16 p.m. ↑
                        Hello Sergey, Happy New Year !!!
                        I guess you're right, you need to get seeds

                        Aron Zawi (2) Yesterday, 10:24 ↑
                        Happy New Year, Sergey! I'm also in the front row, with a plate of fruit.


                        Gathered site "elite"
                        They lack only half a liter.

                        Our "authoritative gods" with condescension will spit seeds at the skirmish between the Russians and the Israelites.
                      41. +1
                        27 December 2014 10: 51
                        Serge Zdarova! I haven’t seen one hundred years! Yes, the weather pleased, snow!
                      42. VAF
                        VAF
                        +2
                        27 December 2014 15: 50
                        Quote: SrgSoap
                        Serge Zdarova! I haven’t seen one hundred years! Yes, the weather pleased, snow!


                        Hello my friend! you weren’t the same .. God forbid how much time .. Solved problems with work? drinks
                        Snowball .. yeah .. Sobakin (bitch .. such) "dragged" me around all the landings and ravines .. there are already snowdrifts ... so he dives into them.
                        thank God. that I thought of "sliders" to dress. yes high fur boots .. otherwise it would be .. "froze yak tsutsik".
                        Well, the "contract" with him I carry out strictly - in the summer, a walk for 20-30 minutes (hot), in the rain and mud only 1 time ... since you have to swim, and it dries for 12 hours, but in winter ... be kind for 2 hours 3 in the morning and 1.5 hours in the dark drinks
                      43. +40
                        27 December 2014 10: 56
                        Quote: vaf
                        I think where I disappeared, and then look ... "tank theme" and what
                        "Specialists" against "patriots"


                        Hello, Sergey! In general, the source of such squads is INCORRECT approach to combat use without taking into account the features and nature of the enemy’s theater of operations and the method of warfare. This is from the same series when they begin to compare Mace and Trident completely without thinking about the nature of the tasks for the product and the options for combat use / because it is understood by a fairly small circle of specialists in a field closed to the public / or srach about the vulnerability or invulnerability of AUG, when begin to think about particulars, forgetting the general.
                        What tasks in fact should be solved by one or another type of troops or type of weapon in modern wars. In general terms, strategic planning and military-technical equipment proceeds from three main criteria.
                        1. War against an enemy superior in strength and means
                        2. War with an equal enemy
                        3. The war with the enemy is inferior in strength.
                        For each type of confrontation, a strategy and tactics and types of weapons for waging war are being developed.
                        There are no further examples of time. In general, each state proceeds, or should proceed in its military planning and security, from these criteria. Well, the quality and quantity depends on the level of technology and the size of the wallet and the capabilities of our own production and, as the scientific and technical backlog and personnel say.
                        In this case, let Israel have a headache about Merkava, we have other opponents, both strong and weak, and accordingly our own headache.
                        In general, with the upcoming all Merkavists and Russian tankers !!! Better to beat on the fields of the Internet than in the field love
                      44. VAF
                        VAF
                        +4
                        27 December 2014 15: 44
                        Quote: Ascetic

                        Hello, Sergey! In general, the source of such squads is INCORRECT approach to combat use without taking into account the features and nature of the enemy’s theater of operations and the method of warfare. This is from the same series when they begin to compare Mace and Trident completely without thinking about the nature of the tasks for the product and the options for combat use / because it is understood by a fairly small circle of specialists in a field closed to the public / or srach about the vulnerability or invulnerability of AUG, when begin to think about particulars, forgetting the general.


                        Hello Stanislav! I completely agree with you ... I was busy yesterday. And I was tempted to get into a "dispute" with Oleg Kaptsov drinks
                        And then the AUG is not the same, and their planes are not the same, and in general .. they are just targets, but our "landowners" .. that's it.
                        In general, it was possible to "tinker" though this topic would have been on .. "on the brink of a foul" bully (times, unfortunately not the same soldier ).
                        I answered you on a branch with the Tu-160 questions drinks

                        Stanislav and "prsvyat" (to the extent of "possible"). I heard that the "Pioneer" was reanimated in a new modification (R-26 seems recourse ).
                        If so, then it’s really cool soldier
                    2. 0
                      30 December 2014 01: 46
                      Quote: i80186

                      Well, not only tanks, in general, equipment adapted to operate in such conditions, for example, in the army we have 90% +. Etozhzhzh for a reason yes? winked

                      do you think you are writing the whole device is an increase in the life of a combat unit from a few minutes to several hours.
                  2. +16
                    27 December 2014 11: 08
                    Our potential opponents had the entire T line - which the USSR sold them (at that time the most modern tanks) - do you know the result of all wars?

                    Duc the enemy were Arabs ... with all that it implies wink
                    1. -6
                      27 December 2014 13: 15
                      Quote: Yarik
                      Our potential opponents had the entire T line - which the USSR sold them (at that time the most modern tanks) - do you know the result of all wars?

                      Duc the enemy were Arabs ... with all that it implies wink

                      Who are the teachers?
                      And what the hell did you have to burn so much dough (and even more than once) --- if the Arabs, or do you think that they have changed over the years?
                      1. +9
                        27 December 2014 16: 58
                        Quote: atalef
                        Who are the teachers?
                        And what the hell did you have to burn so much dough (and even more than once) --- if the Arabs, or do you think that they have changed over the years?

                        -------------------------
                        You might think that in Israel they live all the time luminaries of science and education, who themselves are extremely smart and can learn all the trees in the area ...
                      2. +4
                        27 December 2014 17: 04
                        You better tell me on whose dependents you lived during that period? One charge was 40! billiards forever green rubles. From Israel, the effectiveness in geopolitics does not smell. Ameriki and Germans pissed out a ton of money, the result is 0! The union invested in the Arabs, and Russia now uses dividends. So write letters ...
                      3. 0
                        27 December 2014 21: 28
                        Quote: ymNIK1970
                        From Israel, the effectiveness in geopolitics does not smell.


                        One sentence - quote of the year !!!

                        PS There will be no sense while Israel is waving to the United States.
                      4. +6
                        27 December 2014 19: 33
                        I have read many times that the "pilots" -Arabs, seeing an enemy plane, often ejected without engaging in battle. Those. did the Soviet teachers teach them just this?
                        And about the dough - yes, it was not hell to sponsor them. On the other hand, Israel chopped off decently the territory of the Arabs. And who will like it ?!
                      5. 0
                        29 December 2014 21: 20
                        Quote: kavad
                        "pilots" -Arabs seeing an enemy plane often ejected

                        As one of our test pilot said, who catapulted once, the second time will do everything possible not to repeat this.
                      6. 0
                        29 December 2014 21: 18
                        Quote: atalef
                        And what the hell it was necessary to shoot so much dough

                        It’s a little expensive to dispose of the tanks, it’s better to sell it cheaply, as the Czechs did by selling the T-72 to Ukraine.
                  3. +7
                    27 December 2014 13: 06
                    Congratulations!
                  4. +1
                    27 December 2014 13: 49
                    Not far-off. And by the way, who had "the entire line of T", facts in the studio
                  5. +10
                    27 December 2014 16: 55
                    Quote: atalef
                    Our potential opponents had the entire T line - which the USSR sold them (at that time the most modern tanks) - do you know the result of all wars?

                    -------------------------
                    I know the stupid tactics of using Soviet tanks by Arab tankers, when without any frills of maneuvering in open areas, the driver mechanically stupidly rushes forward, it is not clear what he hopes for, either his gods or the invulnerability of the armor. Is the tank to blame for the fact that inside it is not quite a smart and trained crew? Such a result will be on any tank that allows you to attack yourself from unfavorable angles for the tank ...
                  6. +1
                    27 December 2014 21: 47
                    Quote: atalef
                    Our potential opponents had the entire T line - which the USSR sold them (at that time the most modern tanks) - do you know the result of all wars?


                    We only know what you presented, and how you can embellish, we all know well. laughing What? You say wikipedia has everything? wink laughing
                  7. 0
                    28 December 2014 01: 03
                    Do you know the result of all wars?


                    Have the Jews conquered Mount Sinai?
                  8. Gluxar_
                    +2
                    28 December 2014 02: 04
                    Quote: atalef
                    Our potential opponents had the entire T line - which the USSR sold them (at that time the most modern tanks) - do you know the result of all wars?

                    You yourself begin to consider tanks separately from the theater and conditions of use.
                    Quote: atalef
                    I especially liked it - about the use of high-altitude thermonuclear explosions - why would tanks be needed?

                    And here you can really see "Jewish thinking". In the conditions of Israel, after the use of such weapons, tanks really will no longer be needed. But in the context of Europe and a major conflict in general, thermonuclear weapons are the same means of victory as tanks. Moreover, the first and second complement each other. Soviet / Russian tanks were always created with such conditions in mind. Hence the resistance to the effects of weapons of mass destruction and operational features.
                    Comparing with a "chariot" in such a theater of operations is generally inappropriate.
                    Quote: atalef
                    Or do you think that with the mass use of nuclear weapons - the only thing that will have value is (T) -?

                    Tanks will become many times more valuable equipment. for example, many types of precision weapons simply stop working, at least due to the lack of guidance systems. And the tanks both worked and will work. Only the crew will be given certain protection against many types of WMD.
                  9. 0
                    28 December 2014 10: 29
                    you are a vivid illustration of a non-existent bird))) - desert sandpiper!
                  10. +1
                    28 December 2014 21: 00
                    Quote: atalef
                    Our potential opponents had the entire T line - which the USSR sold them (at that time the most modern tanks) - do you know the result of all wars?
                    The result of the IMHO wars was determined not so much by the quality of equipment as by the poor training of the Arab military. After all, North Vietnam, armed with Soviet technology, was able to withstand, stronger than the Israeli army, the US army.
                  11. +1
                    29 December 2014 11: 19
                    your potential opponents never had normal personnel in the armies. In this situation, the quality of the weapon no longer matters.
                  12. 0
                    29 December 2014 12: 16
                    Quote: atalef
                    Do you know the result of all wars?

                    the result is known, but do you really think that the result of these wars was the brave ruble and the victories of your MBT or army ??? when Egypt opposed Israel and Syria, only Uncle Sam saved you.
                  13. +1
                    29 December 2014 15: 25
                    Yes, the answer is simple, the Arabs are still warriors ... They don’t give them any modern weapons, or they themselves will break, or they will run away, abandoning it ... it’s not for you to peel from the ak-47 and bury landmines along the roads. ..
                  14. +1
                    29 December 2014 20: 36
                    Who does not watch "t. Biathlon", he talks about tanks as a "madhouse" ... Besides the Chinese, only T-72 participated in the biathlon, and what is the result? It all depends on the crew and the control system of the tank forces. We saw what crews other countries put up. Real competitors - these are only the countries of the former USSR. All the others drive, in the full sense of the word ... yes, I drove a T-75 with a plow on a collective farm faster than these "tankers". It was not for nothing that they later said: "Now we have learned how to control the T-72 tank." But all the same, my opinion is that they will be able to compete with the Kazakhs only after three or four biathlons.
                2. lucidlook
                  +6
                  28 December 2014 07: 39
                  Quote: i80186
                  And if there is a war, then the situation with forcing a water barrier is every 50 km, and be sure, I emphasize this, be sure to use at least tactical nuclear and high-altitude thermonuclear explosions.

                  How often over the past 30 years have you seen chronicles of war using domestic tank units, where would tank wedges race on the virgin lands? How many oncoming tank attacks? How many of them were accompanied by the use of nuclear weapons? How many water barriers were forced along the bottom during both Chechen campaigns and the Georgian war?

                  Compare with the number of battles in the city. Add to this the use of tanks in a guerrilla war, when the main danger is a landmine or mine, in extreme cases - RPG-7 in the stern.

                  And answer the question - to whom and why do we need all these anti-atomic bells and whistles if neither their development, nor implementation, nor the concept itself fits (and pays off) in modern realities?
                3. 0
                  28 December 2014 10: 27
                  whatever you say, but a German is a German, that a tiger is a leopard, are excellent tanks!
                4. Russkiy53
                  0
                  29 December 2014 01: 29
                  what nonsense ...
          2. Russkiy53
            0
            29 December 2014 01: 26
            guess :)))!
        2. +5
          27 December 2014 21: 00
          Merkava is good in its own way, but what to do in the merkava if you are cherished with a tornado cassette? This is a weapon of excellence - when there is air superiority there is electronic warfare, satellites are not shot down and GPS is working. But the merkava is too narrow a machine specialization.
          Guys do not underestimate the enemy or competitor, you need to take the best from him. For example, the shape of the tower and its front projection.
          1. 0
            28 December 2014 10: 10
            Quote: Gogia
            For example, the shape of the tower and its front projection.


            Especially lured.
        3. tkhonov66
          +1
          29 December 2014 13: 33
          "...
          I’m just asleep and I see a tank regiment forcing on the Merkava of the Southern Bug in the conditions of the use of weapons of mass destruction, without aviation support.
          ..."
          .
          a fairy tale about how one wand and nine holes destroyed an entire army (see the wonderful adventure of Niels)
          8-))
      3. +31
        27 December 2014 08: 04
        Comrade "Katz" I suggest you give up ... The article discusses ratings and comparison of parameters, is there anything intelligible in terms of numbers ???
        1. +3
          27 December 2014 12: 10
          And how do these characters deal with this?
      4. +15
        27 December 2014 08: 12
        Dear Katsin, you can in more detail why can’t I beat MK4 with the help of Cornet? Are the arrows completely oblique, the missiles are crooked, or is the tank an absolutely impenetrable machine?
        1. +10
          27 December 2014 08: 16
          Quote: sv68
          e why beat mkxnumx with a Cornet

          KAZ Trophy and there is no mass shelling, but single launches.
        2. +33
          27 December 2014 09: 28
          Quote: sv68
          Dear Katsin, you can in more detail why can’t I beat MK4 with the help of Cornet? Are the arrows completely oblique, the missiles are crooked, or is the tank an absolutely impenetrable machine?

          Probably Merkava is kosher, and ATGM Cornet is not kosher laughing
          How many Jews do not read comments on VO - they tell us that American or Israeli technology is better request
          If Israel does not recognize the loss of Merkav from the Cornets, this does not mean that there were no Merkav losses. Israel generally reluctant to acknowledge losses
          1. -8
            27 December 2014 09: 56
            Quote: 0255
            If Israel does not recognize the loss of Merkav from the Cornets, this does not mean that there were no Merkav losses.

            An interesting conclusion
            How do you like a pun - (nothing personal. Just as an example) if you do not admit. that you belong to sexual minorities. not yet mean. that you are not
            Once again, I'm sorry, nothing personal. So . to show the absurdity of your post.
            1. +2
              27 December 2014 14: 06
              Quote: atalef
              How do you like a pun - (nothing personal. Just as an example) if you do not admit. that you belong to sexual minorities. not yet mean. that you are not

              As if, 0255 was not seen in certain actions discrediting him from a certain side and did not show a penchant for them lol
              What can not be said about Jewish tankers who participated in the famous clash and suffered unrecognized losses request
              Once again, I'm sorry, nothing personal. So . to show the absurdity of your post.
          2. +4
            27 December 2014 23: 29
            It’s like in the USA. - If the plane was shot down, but it reached the base, it sat down, it cannot be restored, it was written off there - this is considered a non-combat loss. In World War II, they even wrote off ships like that! Even an escort aircraft carrier seems to be there. I don’t remember the name ... Burned out by the kamikaze attacks, but got to the base, they wrote off there. Not a combat loss!
          3. michodil
            0
            28 December 2014 15: 43
            Maybe for you he does not readily admit. And so when there are losses on the next day they already say
          4. The comment was deleted.
          5. tkhonov66
            +2
            29 December 2014 13: 35
            "...
            Israel generally reluctant to acknowledge losses
            ..."
            .
            he simply DOESN’T RECOGNIZE.
            This, he says, raises the fighting spirit of the "God's chosen" army.
            8-))
        3. katsin
          -7
          27 December 2014 09: 53
          Because since 2010, Merkava 4 has been equipped with the Vetrovka active protection complex. Correspondingly, the Cornets got lost on approaching the tank, and besides, the crew received the coordinates of the firing unit, which greatly worsened the health of the terrorists who launched the Cornet
          1. +12
            27 December 2014 12: 35
            Quote: Katsin
            Because since 2010, Merkava 4 has been equipped with the Vetrovka active protection complex.

            Which "Cornets", when used correctly, overcome.
            1. -4
              27 December 2014 12: 44
              Quote: Spade
              Quote: Katsin
              Because since 2010, Merkava 4 has been equipped with the Vetrovka active protection complex.

              Which "Cornets", when used correctly, overcome.

              Where and when ?
              1. +30
                27 December 2014 13: 19
                But as you come across a normally organized VET, you will find out. And then they got used to fighting the terrorists with their tactics "I put it in, take it out and run," and decided that nothing else could be.
                1. -14
                  27 December 2014 13: 27
                  Quote: Spade
                  But as you come across a normally organized VET, you will find out

                  Or they will find out
                  Quote: Spade
                  And then they are used to fighting terrorists with their tactics "I put it in, take it out and run"

                  What are you saying .
                  Quote: Spade
                  and decided that nothing else could be.

                  Maybe. and 5 wars confirm this.
                  1. +8
                    27 December 2014 13: 38
                    Quote: atalef
                    Or they will find out

                    How do the newest Merkavas burn? Required.


                    Quote: atalef


                    And did you participate in all the Merkava-4s? "We are from the future" (c)?
                    1. -8
                      27 December 2014 14: 00
                      Quote: Spade
                      And did you participate in all the Merkava-4s? "We are from the future" (c)?


                      Merkava (4) - even fighting, but t-90, where did he manage to check in?
                      1. +9
                        27 December 2014 14: 12
                        Quote: atalef
                        Merkava (4) - even fighting

                        laughing
                        The Merkava-4 "fought" in the same way as the T-90 "fought". The second Chechen war did not differ much from the current Israeli wars.
                      2. +8
                        27 December 2014 14: 21
                        Quote: Spade
                        The second Chechen was not very different from the current Israeli wars.

                        It was different, they had a connection half a half that we had tanks with artillery too. In addition, Maskhadov, a professional artilleryman, your colleague, would not be surprised if I studied nearby what hi
                      3. +2
                        27 December 2014 14: 34
                        I'm too young to "study with him"
                      4. -3
                        27 December 2014 14: 23
                        Quote: Spade
                        Quote: atalef
                        Merkava (4) - even fighting

                        laughing
                        The Merkava-4 "fought" in the same way as the T-90 "fought". The second Chechen war did not differ much from the current Israeli wars.

                        So how is it ? How many t-90s were shaken? How much is hit? How many crews are lost?
                        Can I have statistics?
                      5. +14
                        27 December 2014 14: 41
                        Quote: atalef
                        So how is it ? How many t-90s were shaken? How much is hit? How many crews are lost?

                        Not at all. Having participated in the First in single copies, they did not even participate in the Second. Why? Yes, because for this type of war, not only T-72, but also T-62 were enough for the eyes

                        Well, in terms of losses, we have three damaged tanks in our regiment. Once their "grad" -ovskiy projectile and twice the gusyanki with grenade launchers removed from the tanks, near Bamut and in Komsomolsk. Two wounded tankmen. Both times - tank commanders sticking out of the hatch.
                      6. -6
                        27 December 2014 14: 49
                        Quote: Spade
                        Not at all. Having participated in the First in single copies, they did not even participate in the Second. Why? Yes, because for this type of war, not only T-72, but also T-62 were enough for the eyes

                        Great . Can I have loss data?
                        Quote: Spade
                        Well, in terms of losses, we have three damaged tanks in our regiment. Once their "grad" -ovskiy projectile and twice the gusyanki with grenade launchers removed from the tanks, near Bamut and in Komsomolsk. Two wounded tankmen. Both times - tank commanders sticking out of the hatch.

                        Is that all?
                        Shovels. come on no tales
                        I ask - the loss of military vehicles in the First and Second Chechen.
                      7. +10
                        27 December 2014 15: 46
                        Quote: atalef
                        Great . Can I have loss data?

                        Not a single lost T-90. Which clearly indicates: this is the best tank in the world


                        Quote: atalef
                        Is that all?
                        Shovels. come on no tales

                        This is your fairy tale there "The tank is not hit if it could be taken away from the battlefield." For cutting.

                        And these are the concrete results of a specific battalion for the period from autumn 1999 to summer 2000.
                      8. The comment was deleted.
                      9. +2
                        29 December 2014 12: 41
                        Comrades, forgive me for wedging myself into the conversation: take a look at the use of the Syrian T-72s, which are fighting without DZ with the dubious "Tsigan" modernization. MBTs hold the punch well enough. Syrian tankers have noted this more than once.
                        Again, I'm not saying that there are no losses. There is already a video of how the towers flew off, but again there the "peaceful militia" runs far from RPG-7. It seems there was even infa about the "vampire" RPG-29 if I'm not mistaken. With a tandem warhead.

                        I agree with some comrades: you can not compare these MBTs. Too different goals. The same department for the landing at the Merkava give both pluses and significant disadvantages.
                      10. +7
                        28 December 2014 16: 48
                        As far as I know, during the latest events in India, the disputed Punjab state once again rebelled and separatist sentiments rose. India, in turn, introduced troops to suppress the riot, which led to the concentration of troops from Pakistan. Pakistan directly began to support the rebels and even threatened India with a direct invasion. India drove the T-90 regiment to the border and Pakistan quietly withdrawn troops from the border, because they knew that they will have nothing to stop these tanks. So the T-90 did not fight, but it prevented a war between the two states, and this is a good deterrent to the enemy.
                  2. +3
                    29 December 2014 13: 14
                    sorry, you are so proud of these 5 wars, however, your enemies, although they were numerous, but they were far from the level of the modern European army. Therefore, do not push it too much.
                    Soviet officers who spoke with the Arabs can make a long list of complaints about the elementary rules of action in the war.
                    But this is not all - the superiority in aviation was achieved in general by methods that had little relation to the performance characteristics of aircraft or the training of pilots. Israel obviously had a much more advantageous situation.
                    1. -1
                      29 December 2014 14: 14
                      Quote: yehat
                      5 wars

                      7. Wars was 7
                2. +2
                  28 December 2014 01: 27
                  Quote: Spade
                  But as you come across a normally organized VET, you will find out. And then they got used to fighting the terrorists with their tactics "I put it in, take it out and run," and decided that nothing else could be.

                  Well, Hezbollah has a better military budget than a number of armies. And just the main problem is that there is a mixture of combatants and non-combatants. Or do you think that terrorists have poorly organized VET? Hezbollah could envy many states
              2. +5
                27 December 2014 14: 10
                Quote: atalef
                Where and when ?

                What's question? You have it! You will not argue that all the wrecked Merkavas were hit from a slingshot? wassat
            2. +1
              28 December 2014 01: 20
              Quote: Spade
              Which "Cornets", when used correctly, overcome.

              In theory, anything is possible. In practice, this has not happened at the moment.
          2. +5
            28 December 2014 01: 34
            Quote: Katsin
            Because since 2010, Merkava 4 has been equipped with the Vetrovka active protection complex. And accordingly, the Cornets got lost on approaching the tank, and besides, the crew received the coordinates of the firing unit

            This seems like a plausible explanation. The Israelis used technological and quantitative advantages. There is nothing wrong here, they won.
            But here some of the Chariots also went to the scrap request
            1. -2
              30 December 2014 05: 24
              Quote: GSH-18
              But here some of the Chariots also went to the scrap


              In 2006, yes. There are no indestructible tanks. especially if 100 kg of explosives is placed under them
      5. +15
        27 December 2014 09: 08
        Quote: Katsin
        Regarding the T-90, I’ll say this: I would prefer that Egypt and the Saudis have T-90, and not Abrams

        You will not believe - I would too.
        1. +4
          27 December 2014 14: 15
          Quote: mark1
          Regarding the T-90, I’ll say this: I would prefer that Egypt and the Saudis have T-90, and not Abrams

          You will not believe - I would too.

          This comrade Katsin clearly got excited lol by inexperience. And now, after a little reflection, she really wants to take her words back laughing
      6. ICT
        +6
        27 December 2014 09: 14
        Quote: Katsin
        By the way, KAZ immediately gives out the coordinates of the firing ATGM


        in this regard, I have long been wondering why all manufacturers did not develop an analogue Baby system with an exploded launcher and remote control?
        1. tkhonov66
          +1
          29 December 2014 14: 11
          "...
          in this regard, I have long been wondering why all manufacturers did not develop an analogue of Baby with a spaced launcher and remote control
          ..."
          .
          I will try to save you from the "torment" ...
          8-)
          .
          The fact is that "KAZ ... gives out the coordinates of the firing ATGM" - by analyzing NOT the "coordinates of its launcher" - but the trajectory of the ATGM flight in its final section. Well, this very "trajectory" ATGM "Baby" - lies NEAR THE "LINE OF SIGHT" (from the control panel to the target) - which "line" unambiguously "points" to the "Windbreaker" - the vector is exactly on the "control panel", and not on the launcher ". And at the same time, the operator of the console is obliged to keep the ATGM on the lily of sight - about the moment of its collision with the target. And therefore, the operator simply does not have time to change the position ...
          8- (
          - that's why the manufacturers "didn't develop" ...
          8-))
      7. +5
        27 December 2014 09: 50
        I would prefer that Egypt and the Saudis have T-90, not Abrams

        So do I.
      8. The comment was deleted.
      9. +8
        27 December 2014 11: 26
        I, too, preferred to have backward Arab countries under the control of foolish dictators as adversaries in the war, but alas.
        1. -7
          27 December 2014 12: 36
          Quote: Mother Teresa
          I, too, preferred to have backward Arab countries under the control of faraway dictators as adversaries in the war.

          Is that what you mean Pope Assad?
          1. +5
            27 December 2014 13: 03
            Abdel Nasser, Anwar al-Sadat, Abdullah I, Saddam Husay is what I mean. Against their background, Papa Assad looks quite presentable, but against the background of others, he is so ordinary a dictator leaning on the guards and intelligence of the Air Force and his family.
            1. -2
              27 December 2014 13: 16
              Quote: Mother Teresa
              Abdel Nasser, Anwar al-Sadat, Abdullah I, Saddam Husay is what I mean. Against their background, Papa Assad looks quite presentable

              You probably don’t know history. read about Homs
              (this is during the time of Pope Assad)
              1. +4
                27 December 2014 14: 07
                I can history of the region as you don’t know, but I heard about Homs. And this example only confirms my words about the backward Arab countries under the control of the narrow-minded dictators.
                1. -4
                  27 December 2014 14: 18
                  Quote: Mother Teresa
                  I can history of the region as you don’t know, but I heard about Homs. And this example only confirms my words about the backward Arab countries under the control of the narrow-minded dictators.

                  It’s strange. but all these not-so-distant dictators were sculpted friends of the USSR. and some continue to be them.
                  1. +13
                    27 December 2014 14: 54
                    Abdullah I was definitely not a friend of the USSR, Anwar al-Sadat was friends with the United States and received the Nobel Prize like Yasser Arafat, and with Saddam Hussein everything was not so clear during the war with Iran, the USA openly supported him, and the use of chemical weapons and he remembered other crimes only after many years, when the need arose for the United States.
                2. +7
                  27 December 2014 14: 28
                  Quote: Mother Teresa
                  about the backward Arab countries under the control of the narrow-minded dictators.

                  Arab and African countries are more or less adequate only under the control of dictators. Otherwise, such bedlam begins there, until the next dictator subverts everything for himself, in general, there is not even the Middle Ages, but the "dark" ages, to which the "aliens" gave the elements of civilization, or exchanged for "minibuses"
                  1. +3
                    27 December 2014 15: 01
                    The problem of Arab and African dictators is that sooner or later they begin to fight with their neighbors, the result is known.
                    1. +1
                      29 December 2014 13: 53
                      and yet it’s better than an internal civil war without end
              2. The comment was deleted.
      10. +13
        27 December 2014 12: 48
        The fact that Merkava is not suitable for an offensive war is obvious - too heavy (and therefore unreliable) for long marches over rough terrain, not able to overcome water barriers, doesn’t pass bridges everywhere, is too gluttonous for fuel, can consume only diesel fuel, etc. Since the tank was not created for offensive operations, we forgive him these shortcomings.

        Consider its effectiveness in terms of its profile - fire support for infantry in a limited theater of operations. Here I immediately begin to be confused by similar arguments about yours about the number of "irretrievably lost tanks." If the tank is hit by an ATGM or RPG and it is unable to continue the battle - it is simply disabled, the armor is pierced and the crew is damaged, or the tank is irretrievably lost - it does not matter, then this means that the tank WAS NOT RUNNING. In any case, he does not provide support for the infantry. And the infantry who died from machine gun fire and RPGs in the absence of tank support - I think it will be all the same - then the repaired tank returned to service or not.
        1. -26
          27 December 2014 12: 53
          Quote: Slon1978
          for long cross-country marches


          Well, generally normal patsans (not from advanced armies) drive tanks on throttles. and you’re all marching over rough terrain - I wonder if you know what age is in the yard?
          Quote: Slon1978
          If a tank is hit by an ATGM or an RPG and it is unable to continue the battle - it is simply disabled, the armor is broken and the crew is hit, or the tank is lost forever - the point is unimportant, this means that the tank DID NOT CURE

          To school, and primary
          1. +5
            27 December 2014 13: 04
            Quote: atalef
            Well, generally normal patsans (not from advanced armies) drive tanks on throttles.

            Sanya, on trailers and on railway, only before the start of the task. Further breakthrough of the front and went deep into horror. 72 done for this
            Quote: Slon1978
            too heavy (and therefore unreliable) for long cross-country marches

            Believe me, no, they also have a crossed path. and heavy, does not mean at all that unreliable, unreliable, is another.
            1. -13
              27 December 2014 13: 18
              Quote: perepilka
              Sanya, on trailers and on railway, only before the start of the task. Further breakthrough of the front and went deep into horror. 72 done for this

              Of course . only without the support of the infantry (which, as I understand it in this case, the tanks will not keep pace) will be neatly killed by helicopters and anti-tank weapons
              1. +11
                27 December 2014 13: 39
                Quote: atalef
                Of course . only without the support of the infantry (which, as I understand it, in this case, the tanks will not keep pace)

                And for this there is a BMP. Did you not know?
                1. -2
                  27 December 2014 14: 02
                  Quote: Spade
                  And for this there is a BMP. Did you not know?

                  Strange, Saddam probably did not know about this and his officers were not trained in those academies.
                  And there were tanks and BMPs, and there was a theory of assault and tank breakthroughs, that's just the result - zilch.
                  1. +3
                    27 December 2014 14: 13
                    Quote: atalef
                    and his officers were not trained in those academies.

                    Sanya, begin, can only be one who wants to study, especially if his studies are unconditionally paid. In our ALTI, the Bulgarians studied fool Nothing (with rare exceptions), all with honors, so request And them, tribal, Sanya, are you serious?
                    1. -1
                      27 December 2014 14: 27
                      Quote: perepilka
                      Sanya, begin, can only be one who wants to study, especially if his studies are unconditionally paid.

                      Generally this is a good excuse
                      I understand the equipment was delivered. officers were taught, grandmas invested. but when they (Iraqis 0 managed to their ears), they immediately blamed themselves on the fact that they were Arabs and what to take from them.
                      Or maybe the problem is wider (as Raikin said)
                      Quote: perepilka
                      And them, tribal, Sanya, are you serious?

                      I am a little familiar with the Jordanian army, it is head and shoulders above all the neighboring Arab (and fought with Israel much more steadily and professionally) - though its school is English.
                      But the same Arabs.
                      1. +3
                        27 December 2014 14: 46
                        Quote: atalef
                        Generally this is a good excuse

                        This is obvious, some of them sat with us at lectures, but the graduates and tests did not pass and did not receive together. ALTI, this is Arkhangelsk, Order of the Red Banner of Labor, Forestry Institute, them. V.V. Kuybysheva. Yes, and Bulgaria, all logging and timber processing directly. They, the region need specialists in cellulose and mechanics in forestry equipment.
                        I became an energy engineer at the railway station when the timber industry enterprise died, before that, at the tractor’s PRMk, I was repairing the IMRK for the army, hence the interest in tanks request
                  2. +4
                    27 December 2014 14: 23
                    It would seem, and here is Saddam ...
                    1. -1
                      27 December 2014 14: 31
                      Quote: Spade
                      It would seem, and here is Saddam ...


                      So his T-ki really fought against tanks - we are talking about this.
                      1. +6
                        27 December 2014 14: 50
                        AND? Did you do something bad? At the initial stage of the war, the Iraqi troops showed themselves more or less well. But at the same time, setting themselves "feasible" tasks and not wishing to develop success, they brought matters to a positional war. And then Iran banally threw them corpses
                      2. -7
                        27 December 2014 14: 56
                        Quote: Spade
                        AND? Somehow they showed themselves badly? At the initial stage of the war, Iraqi troops showed themselves more or less normally.


                        More or less - how is it? Kuwait captured? laughing
                        Quote: Spade
                        But at the same time, setting themselves "feasible" tasks and not wanting to develop success, they brought matters to a positional war

                        AND !? so it’s just they didn’t want to fight with amers, they were not worthy of them. laughing
                        Quote: Spade
                        And then Iran banally threw them corpses

                        So you are talking about Iran laughing
                        The storyteller you (can you?) Lopatov
                        Armies are measured by only one thing - whether they win or not, the rest is in favor of the poor.
                      3. +4
                        27 December 2014 15: 04
                        Quote: atalef
                        Armies are measured by only one thing - whether they win or not, the rest is in favor of the poor.

                        Armies are measured by their ability to withstand the enemy. Barefoot Yugoslavs Tito. stood to the end, and then, cleaned a separate Burzy am Chavka.
                      4. -1
                        27 December 2014 15: 22
                        Quote: perepilka
                        Quote: atalef
                        Armies are measured by only one thing - whether they win or not, the rest is in favor of the poor.

                        Armies are measured by their ability to withstand the enemy. Barefoot Yugoslavs Tito. stood to the end, and then, cleaned a separate Burzy am Chavka.

                        And?
                      5. +2
                        27 December 2014 15: 46
                        Quote: atalef
                        And?

                        Who coached the Kuwaiti army?
                        Wait, I sat on the coast. Where you sit, there is a train station. Those how many more questions to ask in response? laughing
                      6. -1
                        27 December 2014 20: 49
                        Quote: perepilka
                        Quote: atalef
                        And?

                        Who coached the Kuwaiti army?
                        Wait, I sat on the coast. Where you sit, there is a train station. Those how many more questions to ask in response? laughing

                        and in 1991 there was an army in Kuwait? belay
                      7. 0
                        28 December 2014 19: 03
                        Quote: atalef
                        and in 1991 there was an army in Kuwait? belay

                        That is, do you admit that there are no fighters from the Arabs? laughing
                      8. +1
                        29 December 2014 12: 45
                        the truth is somewhere near laughing
                      9. +5
                        27 December 2014 15: 51
                        Quote: atalef
                        More or less - how is it? Kuwait captured?

                        And that too. Captured after all.

                        Quote: atalef
                        Armies are measured by only one thing - whether they win or not, the rest is in favor of the poor

                        Well then, the Israeli army has not won for a long time. Since the First Lebanese, Israel "wins" in the same way as Iraq and Iran "won" (both countries are confident of victory in this conflict)
                        All remained "with their own"
                      10. +3
                        27 December 2014 14: 57
                        Quote: atalef
                        So his T-ki really fought against tanks - we are talking about this.

                        If realistically, how long did it take for Iraq to take Kuwait? How long did it take for the Tempest in the Camp not to take Iraq?
                        Opposing ratios are equivalent in both cases.
                        Then Iraq was isolated, including us.
                      11. +2
                        27 December 2014 15: 03
                        Quote: perepilka
                        Opposing ratios are equivalent in both cases.
                        Then Iraq was isolated, and we, including

                        Not equal! 6 were used against Iraq !!! Carriers in the form of two AUS (Carrier Shock Connection).
                      12. +4
                        27 December 2014 16: 02
                        Quote: GSH-18
                        Not equal! P

                        Against Kuwait, too, like the whole of Iraq, but Kuwait did not even have time to sniff.
                        Et Sane, at the expense of tank breakthroughs. For the s, self-propelled guns "Abrams", anti-tank, airborne, approximately like the 34-k, the defense will break through, if side to side and the anti-tank defense system is not observed in front, the first line will burn there. At the expense of tactics. And the carrot, indeed, is sharpened only for the city assault, plus, as a PTO.
                        Poeneversalny, I recognize as a tank for anti-terrorist operations.
                        Incidentally, Ukrainian. against Donbass, the most that, it is possible to drive in three or four prices, one horse-radish will be burned.
                      13. +2
                        27 December 2014 23: 27
                        Quote: perepilka
                        At the expense of tactics. A carrot, indeed, is only imprisoned for an urban assault, plus, like a TVET.

                        I agree with you. Carrots and T-90 have different tactics of application. For the T-90, shock and offensive combat is relevant. Because of this, the front projection has a more powerful reservation. A Carrot was designed for fuss in the Gaza Strip, where it will be shot from different directions. Because of this, I had to book everything completely! Carrot turned out very weighty. Our Jewish friends wrote to me here that they carry them on trailers in Israel so that they can save engine resources and not spoil the roads .. I wonder how they carry these Carrots through bridges? In the course in Israel, all bridges under Carrots are reinforced lol
                        In general, in addition to the Israeli desert, this device is unlikely to show itself anywhere else. It's my opinion.
                      14. 0
                        28 December 2014 14: 20
                        Quote: GSH-18
                        In general, in addition to the Israeli desert, this device is unlikely to show itself anywhere else. It's my opinion.


                        "Merkava" shki against the background of the Israeli "desert".
                      15. -2
                        28 December 2014 14: 22
                        "Merkava" shki against the background of the Israeli "desert".
                      16. +2
                        29 December 2014 08: 42
                        I can seal the whole forum with pictures of T-72 against the background of your desert, so what? request
                      17. 0
                        28 December 2014 14: 22
                        "Merkava" shki against the background of the Israeli "desert".
                      18. -2
                        28 December 2014 14: 23
                        "Merkava" shki against the background of the Israeli "desert".
                      19. -2
                        28 December 2014 14: 24
                        here is another one
              2. +4
                27 December 2014 13: 39
                Quote: atalef
                only without infantry support

                BTR and BMP have already been canceled? what Tady "Ural" and "Kamaz".
                Here is "Tungusski", I know for sure that they have not canceled drinks and IMRki with MTUs
            2. 0
              10 January 2016 11: 48
              Merkava’s 620mm rink stroke is almost twice as large as the T-72. What does the torsion bar and spring have to do with it, who is smoother?
          2. +9
            27 December 2014 13: 30
            Quote: atalef
            Well, generally normal patsans (not from advanced armies) drive tanks on throttles

            This is a costly pleasure, especially for large countries. I represent the tank division on trailers.
            1. -2
              27 December 2014 14: 03
              Quote: Kars
              This is a costly pleasure, especially for large countries. I represent the tank division on trailers.

              So self-propelled, cheaper.?
              1. +7
                27 December 2014 14: 10
                Quote: atalef
                So self-propelled, cheaper.?

                How many diesel fuel and spare parts for a tank can you buy if you sell one such trailer?
                And there are 1000 tanks. Do you need 1000 trailers?
                1. +2
                  27 December 2014 14: 15
                  Quote: Kars
                  How many diesel fuel and spare parts for a tank can you buy if you sell one such trailer?

                  Well, diesel fuel you surely dragged in vain. maybe a tank driving it under its own power will gobble up more than the trailer carrying it
                  Further (even leaving damage to the roads) I will simply ask. how many tanks will you lose on mileage so 200-250?
                  A tank is worth more than a thriller.
                  Threaders are far off (in any case, if we don’t have enough in the Army, they simply mobilize from private owners)
                  And the thriller generally carries not only tanks. but anything. therefore, no one specifically keeps the fleet of throttles for tanks
                  Tanks in Israel (on the main roads 0 do not go a priori on their own. Only on primers, but are transported exclusively by trailers.
                  1. +3
                    27 December 2014 14: 29
                    Quote: atalef
                    Well, diesel fuel you surely dragged in vain. maybe a tank driving it under its own power will gobble up more than the trailer carrying it

                    What more diesel fuel than a trailer costs?
                    Quote: atalef
                    Further (even leaving damage to the roads)

                    That's what, and this is our last thing.
                    Quote: atalef
                    I’ll just ask. how many tanks will you lose on the mileage so on the 200-250?

                    It’s better to lose on the march (and they are not lost in the end, but need to be repaired) than he then goes into battle. And even our T-64 when they drove to the Donbass did not show any special losses during the march. And there were facts when under its own power and more than 200 km walked. In theory, according to the technical regulations, the T-64 had to go through the 1500 km without repair.

                    Quote: atalef
                    Threaders are far off (in any case, if we don’t have enough in the Army, they simply mobilize from private owners)

                    An interesting question is how many of these trailers are in Ukraine for example
                    1. +2
                      27 December 2014 14: 36
                      Quote: Kars
                      What more diesel fuel than a trailer costs?

                      What trailer do you buy only for tanks?
                      Quote: Kars
                      That's what, and this is our last thing.

                      Well, on my last arrival in Ukraine and having left Kiev, I realized that the roads were in this condition. that you drive tanks on them or not - it makes no difference
                      Quote: Kars
                      It’s better to lose on the march (and they will not get lost with the ends, but need to be repaired) than he will then break into the combat exit

                      Come on. The resource of tank engines through the road. to chase them with march-throws. I'm not talking about the fatigue of the crews and all the attendant
                      in general, the conversation is approximately as follows (more precisely, your logic 0 to fuck the infantry to transport? She is the infantry. She will reach
                      Quote: Kars
                      .And there were facts when they were going under their own power and more than 200 km. According to the technical regulations, the T-64 was supposed to go 1500 km without repair.

                      Should Yes
                      Quote: Kars
                      An interesting question is how many of these trailers, for example, in Ukraine

                      And where does Ukraine?
                      1. +2
                        27 December 2014 14: 52
                        Quote: atalef
                        What trailer do you buy only for tanks?

                        Well, under heavy tracked armored vehicles.

                        Quote: atalef
                        Well, on the last arrival in Ukraine and having left Kiev

                        so I’m talking about that. And to spare the enemy’s roads))
                        Quote: atalef
                        Come on. The resource of tank engines through the road. to chase them with march-throws. I'm not talking about the fatigue of the crews and all the attendant

                        So it’s possible to carry them on the trailers then.
                        Quote: atalef
                        in general, the conversation is approximately like this (more precisely, your logic of 0 is to fuck the infantry? It’s the infantry.

                        infantry will certainly come, but the factor is that it should be together with tanks and have approximately the same level of mobility.
                        Quote: atalef
                        Should

                        And with proper care passed.
                        Quote: atalef
                        And where does Ukraine?

                        Well, not all as rich and compact as Israel.

                        On a trailer to carry and carry in limited quantities and only in peacetime.
                        And our military tractors devour salary no less than a tank.
                      2. +3
                        27 December 2014 15: 22
                        And so by the way about tanks and railers.
                        So South Korea goes to the exercises.
                      3. +14
                        27 December 2014 15: 23
                        And here is Abrams (I can not resist)
                      4. +4
                        27 December 2014 17: 19
                        Apparently laughing or someone pruned, maybe a black cat crossed the road.
                      5. +2
                        29 December 2014 12: 57
                        they hit a banana peel laughing
                      6. +7
                        27 December 2014 21: 19
                        Quote: Kars
                        here is Abrams (I can not resist)


                        The driver is MacCain, not otherwise ... wassat
                      7. MACCABI TLV
                        -5
                        27 December 2014 15: 40
                        Quote: Kars
                        And our military tractors devour salary no less than a tank.

                        Yours, yes, and your roads are not a pity. But there are other countries with a different worldview to commonplace things like public roads. This does not exclude the possibility that merkava can get to the database site on their own. If so, more than once, and not two , Syrians and Egyptians will confirm you.
                      8. +4
                        27 December 2014 15: 45
                        Quote: MACCABI TLV
                        .But there are other countries with a different worldview to commonplace things like public roads

                        There are few such countries, and so that they still have a lot of tanks and few railways in general, a difficult combination to get. Yes, and during the war the worldview changes.
                        Quote: MACCABI TLV
                        this does not exclude the possibility that, if necessary, the merkava can reach the place of the database on their own

                        So you say there two hours by car and got to any point.
                      9. MACCABI TLV
                        +5
                        27 December 2014 16: 29
                        Quote: Kars
                        So you say there two hours by car and got to any point.

                        it’s with good roads, but with broken tank columns ..... do not let God know. Transport arteries are the most important component of the logistics of any army. Crush the asphalt so that it would be impossible to evacuate civilians, or transfer personnel to the transfer. and the ammunition, such a clever man who gave the order to move to the transmission on his own, (subject to the possibility of safe transportation,) immediately put on the wall.
                      10. +1
                        27 December 2014 16: 35
                        Quote: MACCABI TLV
                        Shred the asphalt so that it would be impossible to evacuate the gr

                        But what kind of tanks are these that will kill roads in the trash at a time? How many of them need to be driven there.
                        in the balabino, on the road, two columns of hundreds of tracked vehicles passed-T-64, BMP-2, and nothing dory got any worse.
                      11. 0
                        29 December 2014 14: 28
                        when the tank is moving, there will be almost nothing on the asphalt, but it slows down and turns as part of the column, and the merkava is 20 tons heavier than the t90 and its specific ground pressure is higher. Therefore, I am sure that when the Merkav column passes, its trail will be remembered for a long time.
                      12. 0
                        29 December 2014 13: 00
                        based on your flag, you not only do not mind our dearly, but also the lives of our citizens and the fate of many states in general with all the consequences ...
                        Based only on the flag, the location may again be determined incorrectly by IP.
                      13. +3
                        27 December 2014 16: 22
                        Quote: Kars
                        Well, under heavy tracked armored vehicles.

                        Even under heavy construction, and in our area and under logging complexes, and skidders are hauling them.
                        Sorry to intervene.
                      14. +1
                        27 December 2014 16: 28
                        I am mainly about those tractors that are in service in the army.
                        In the USSR, these were more likely tow trucks.
                      15. +1
                        27 December 2014 18: 52
                        Quote: Kars
                        In the USSR, these were more likely tow trucks.
                        Each army had autobaths, one such baht, about 96 trailers on MAZs, "lifted" and transported a tank regiment ...
                      16. +3
                        27 December 2014 18: 57
                        Quote: svp67
                        Each army had autobaths, one such baht, about 96 trailers on MAZs, "lifted" and transported a tank regiment ...

                        But he could not transport all the tanks and other heavy armored vehicles of the Army.
                      17. +1
                        27 December 2014 19: 00
                        Quote: Kars
                        But he could not transport all the tanks and other heavy armored vehicles of the Army.
                        And why all at once? There is such a thing as a combined march. Something is moving on its own, something is being transported. T80 those without tension 100 kilometers ran in Germany ...
                      18. +4
                        27 December 2014 19: 07
                        Quote: svp67
                        And why all at once?

                        The audience insists, says under its own power not pontificate, it is necessary on trailers. And whatever the asphalt does not scratch.
                      19. +6
                        27 December 2014 19: 14
                        Quote: Kars
                        The public insists, says under its own power not pontificate, it is necessary on trailers
                        If there is such an opportunity, then it is certainly better. But if not, then ...
                        Quote: Kars
                        .And whatever the asphalt does not scratch.
                        You yourself observe that when it is "pinned", no one will pay attention to the asphalt
                      20. +1
                        27 December 2014 18: 54
                        Quote: Kars
                        So it’s possible to carry them on the trailers then.

                        Aha wink For example, "studies" in the Rostov region not far from the border with Ukraine. (Photo by Vafa)
                        topwar.ru/index.php?cstart=3&do=lastcomments&userid=14241#comment
                  2. +3
                    27 December 2014 23: 39
                    Quote: atalef
                    Tanks in Israel (on the main roads 0 do not go a priori on their own. Only on primers, but are transported exclusively by trailers.

                    This is clear. This is the case everywhere. We have developed railway communication in the Russian Federation, so we do not occupy the road with trailers with tanks. The same applies to the transportation of armored personnel carriers and infantry fighting vehicles.
                2. +3
                  27 December 2014 18: 39
                  Quote: Kars
                  I represent the tank division on trailers.

                  Is there a lack of imagination to present a tank division on railway platforms?
                  Railway is cheaper than trailers?
                  Does railway deliver BT equipment directly to the front line?

                  That's it, we give up railway and drive tanks under our own power (so according to Kars it’s cheaper and more efficient) laughing
                  And how many diesel fuel and spare parts can you buy by selling one railway? fellow
                  1. +3
                    27 December 2014 18: 45
                    Quote: Normal
                    Is there a lack of imagination to present a tank division on railway platforms?

                    This is very enough.
                    Quote: Normal
                    Railway is cheaper than trailers?

                    Of course cheaper. For transportation cheaper railway only river transport.
                    Quote: Normal
                    Does railway deliver BT equipment directly to the front line?

                    Enough for 20-50 km to the front edge.
                    1. 0
                      27 December 2014 19: 25
                      Quote: Kars
                      The audience insists, says under its own power not pontificate,

                      Does the railway mean even more not ponto? But no, Kars immediately "turned over"
                      Quote: Kars
                      Of course cheaper. For transportation cheaper railway only river transport.

                      And what about the river? What is there to trifle with river something? Marine is probably even cheaper!
                      So what's more important to you? The prevalence of personal opinion in a dispute with someone or the truth in a specific, real situation?
                      Quote: Kars
                      Enough for 20-50 km to the front edge.

                      Yes, what is there to mess with loading and unloading? Under your own power on 200-400 versts is cheaper! Yes and no, neither we nor you have a railway network with a distance of 20-50 km between branches.
                      A trailer can be right to the front edge, literally for 3 km.
                      Huh?
                      Is there a difference between non-existent 20 -30 km (actually 50-75) and real 3 km?
                      Although I understand that in order to amuse your pride, you are ready to challenge anything.
                      1. +6
                        27 December 2014 19: 33
                        Quote: Normal
                        Does the railway mean even more not ponto? But no, Kars immediately "turned over"

                        I didn’t understand anything. Railway is the most normal type of transportation of heavy armored vehicles, if I once denied it, show my quote.
                        Quote: Normal
                        And what about the river? What is there to trifle with river something? Marine is probably even cheaper!

                        Of course, the US Army’s favorite way.
                        Quote: Normal
                        So what's more important to you? The prevalence of personal opinion in a dispute with someone or the truth in a specific, real situation?

                        You project yourself, it’s even clear from your nickname that you are only confident in yourself,
                        Quote: Normal
                        Yes, what is there to mess with loading and unloading? Under your own power on 200-400 versts is cheaper!

                        No, it’s not cheaper. Loading unloading does not cost much.
                        Quote: Normal
                        Yes and no, neither we nor you have a railway network with a distance of 20-50 km between branches

                        But you can move the front lines. And why do you need the distance BETWEEN the branches?
                        Quote: Normal
                        A trailer can be right to the front edge, literally for 3 km.

                        Why? And why not right? There you have to drive three kilometers on your own. And by the way, if I’m not mistaken, the average range of artillery fires far exceeds your notorious three kilometers. And you lose not only a tank, but also not a cheap trailer. road destruction is possible.
                        Quote: Normal
                        Although I understand that in order to amuse your pride, you are ready to challenge anything.

                        who would say))) normal)))
                      2. +3
                        28 December 2014 01: 51
                        Quote: Normal
                        A trailer can be right to the front edge, literally for 3 km.
                        Huh?
                        Is there a difference between non-existent 20 -30 km (actually 50-75) and real 3 km?

                        What are 3 km? What are you kidding here dear ??
                        The weight of the 70cuboliter Carrot, plus the weight of the trailer and the 25 cubolit tractor, are also that 95 cuboliters !!
                        This current unit on a good asphalt road will be able to move at a speed of 50 km about the maximum! And about the movement on the dirt road and say no. You will not argue that everywhere there are good roads for trailers with Markov? request
                        In addition, if you carry Carrots all the time in trailers, then they will eventually be destroyed in trailers. From the trailer, Carrot will not be able to shoot.
                        Then, it began to rain lightly, after that the wind with stones - your trailers are waiting for the sea weather.
                        A railway meanwhile carries loads.
                      3. +2
                        28 December 2014 09: 13
                        Quote: GSH-18
                        What are 3 km?

                        Israeli, for example.

                        Quote: GSH-18
                        What are you kidding here dear ??

                        That and no more than you

                        Quote: GSH-18
                        The weight of the 70cuboliter Carrot, plus the weight of the trailer and the 25 cubolit tractor, are also that 95 cuboliters !!
                        This current unit on a good asphalt road will be able to move at a speed of km 50 about the maximum!

                        Well, that's what happens in reality, right? You will not deny that the Israelis carry "carrots" on trailers, and, by the way, not only Israelis and not only "carrots"

                        Quote: GSH-18
                        You will not argue that everywhere there are good roads for trailers with Markov?

                        But where these roads are (and in Israel they are, you can rest assured) no one drives tanks on them (as Kars suggests).

                        Quote: GSH-18
                        In addition, if you carry Carrots all the time in trailers, then they will eventually be destroyed in trailers.

                        Confirmed by practice?

                        Quote: GSH-18
                        Then, it began to rain lightly, after that the wind with stones - your trailers are waiting for the sea weather.

                        Tanks unload from the trailer and rush along the highway under its own power from the fact that rain and wind with stones?
                        Do not bring everything to the point of absurdity. Where large distances and large connections - railway. Where the distances are medium, the units are not large, and where the road allows, a trailer. Where there are no roads and not mediocre in the vicinity of the front line - on their own.
                        In general, I see no reason for the dispute if we admit the obvious, and not engage in demagogy and personal greatness.
                    2. 0
                      27 December 2014 19: 30
                      Quote: Kars
                      Of course cheaper.

                      Yeah! To transfer the tank company to the front edge, we stand by the railway branch and use the railway platform and locomotives
                      The main thing is that it is very fast and easy!
                      And with trailers such fuss .... laughing
                      1. +2
                        27 December 2014 19: 37
                        Quote: Normal
                        Yeah! To transfer a tank company to the front line

                        About already slid to the company)))) and the matter started with
                        Quote: Normal
                        anchor division
                      2. +1
                        27 December 2014 22: 16
                        Quote: Kars
                        About already slid to the company)))) and the matter started with

                        Ankhov’s division? No, the case began with your obstinacy in your innocence in everything about tanks. (after all, Kars invented the tanks and it wasn’t for the Israelis to decide how it would be more profitable for them to move their tanks - trailers or self-propelled) Especially since
                        Quote: Kars
                        How many diesel fuel and spare parts for a tank can you buy if you sell one such trailer?

                        Foolishness, pretending to know the issue and again the same thing
                        Quote: Kars
                        On a trailer to carry and carry in limited quantities and only in peacetime.
                        And our military tractors devour salary no less than a tank.

                        Are Ukraine and Russia at war? How are modern armed conflicts in "peacetime" different from war? The fact that the war is not formally declared.
                        We think in terms of a tank army front and do not consider it necessary to notice modern methods of war? Doesn't a tank company matter to you? Have you met one tank in real life (not in the museum and on the pages of smart books, but in a combat situation)?
                        Tractors can be put into battle instead of tanks (they also eat salaries no less)?
                        Quote: Kars
                        Understood nothing.

                        I turned on the du-cancer and didn’t understand it myself. Yeah.
                        Quote: Kars
                        Of course, the US Army’s favorite way.

                        Just relate to the movement of BT over short distances within Israel or the Donbass. Belarusian salmon, Rostov mountain air and submarines in the steppes of Ukraine.
                        Thereafter
                        Quote: Kars
                        who would say))) normal)))

                        Sounds like "perfectly healthy" versus "open tuberculosis"
                        Quote: Kars
                        You project yourself, it’s even clear from your nickname that you are only confident in yourself,

                        "You project yourself" - what would that mean? Translate from paranoid to normal Russian.
                      3. 0
                        27 December 2014 22: 16
                        Quote: Kars
                        Loading unloading special money is not worth it.

                        Kanechna! In theory - AT ALL ALL special money is not worth it.
                        Quote: Kars
                        But you can move the front lines. And why do you need the distance BETWEEN the branches?

                        Really, why ??? Just move the front to the branch we need and the thing is in the hat! The genius of strategy. And even better, so as not to fly far to bomb the enemy, we move the front closer to our airfields.
                        Quote: Kars
                        Why? And why not directly?

                        Exactly! No need to transport BT anywhere! We move the front to the places of deployment of our troops and the problem of moving tanks is solved! No costs for salary, tractors and railways.
                        Quote: Kars
                        And by the way, if I’m not mistaken, the average range of art fire far exceeds your notorious three km. And you lose not only a tank but also not a cheap trailer. At the same time, destruction of roads is very possible at this distance.

                        And I am not mistaken; the average aviation range far exceeds your notorious 20-30 km and you will lose not only tanks but also not very cheap railway locomotives, platform and tracks. It’s better to move the front!
                      4. +1
                        27 December 2014 23: 18
                        Quote: Normal
                        Ankhov’s division?

                        Okay, everything clearly began to disown their words)))
                        Quote: Normal
                        ? No, the thing began with your obstinacy in your innocence in

                        If I’m right, then I’m right, and you have a pathological assertion that only you are right)) But you have already fully adjusted in three comments.
                        Quote: Normal
                        it’s not up to the Israelites to decide how it is more profitable for them to

                        I did not say that.
                        Quote: Kars
                        This is a costly pleasure, especially for large countries. I represent the tank division on trailers.

                        But if you prove that Israel is a large country then okay))))
                      5. +2
                        27 December 2014 23: 19
                        Quote: Normal
                        Foolishness, pretending to know the issue and again the same thing

                        It is you who are talking nonsense)) and I have already proven this with reason.
                        Quote: Normal
                        UkrAina and Russia are at war?

                        How is this sideways to the topic of war? I talked about transportation, and how I clearly proved that even poor Ukraine can afford to transport tanks by rail.
                        Quote: Normal
                        We think in terms of a tank army front and do not consider it necessary to notice modern methods of war?

                        You can think in any categories, we have not been set restrictions.
                        Quote: Normal
                        Doesn't a tank company matter to you?

                        You just lousy and begin to dodge, and you can’t.
                        Quote: Normal
                        Just relate to the movement of BT over short distances within Israel or the Donbass

                        And where did we restrict travel distances somewhere? As I showed, my comment initially spoke about large countries. And for short distances it’s easier on your own.
                        Quote: Normal
                        Tractors can be put into battle instead of tanks (they also eat salaries no less)?

                        And are you normal after that? You’ve already reported so much that you are trying to mix battle with transportation)))
                        Quote: Normal
                        Sounds like "perfectly healthy" versus "open tuberculosis"

                        Yes, yes))) of course)) normal see le nashol))) prove
                        Quote: Normal
                        "You project yourself" - what would that mean? Translate from paranoid to normal Russian.

                        Well, you do not interest me, and it was written for others who read it, they will understand.
                        Quote: Normal
                        Kanechna!

                        If you do not understand this, then this is your problem. But on the 400 km it is more profitable to transport by railway.
                        Quote: Normal
                        Really, why ???

                        What can I say, you’re a hard case)), but you would certainly explain why you need to travel 50 km BETWEEN the branches.
                        Quote: Normal
                        Exactly! No need to transport BT anywhere!

                        ))) I don’t understand why you clown got into the topic without understanding anything)))
                        Quote: Normal
                        And I am not mistaken; medium-range aircraft are far superior

                        If the army is not able to cover its railway lines at a depth exceeding 30 km from the front line, then what is the point of transporting tanks on trailers there especially to a distance of three km from the front line)))
                      6. -1
                        28 December 2014 08: 47
                        Quote: Kars
                        If I'm right, then I'm right

                        Quote: Kars
                        ... clearly proved ....

                        Quote: Kars
                        you are nonsense)) and I have already proven this with reason.

                        Quote: Kars
                        As I showed my comment ...

                        Oh Great Kars! Source of truth and wonder! The light of your mighty intellect illuminates our path! You are always right by the fact that you are always right!
                        Your evidence is undeniable, because your WORD itself is already the greatest and most radiant truth for those who live in the darkness of ignorance.
                        Where, to whom and what have you proved (well, except yourself, of course) ???
                        Is the railway transportation right? So I quipped you in response to the statement that self-propelled is easier and cheaper than on trailers (of course, the Israelis cannot count money.)
                        Vaf posted photos of tanks on trailers in the Rostov region.
                        You yourself posted a lot of pictures of moving tanks on auto trailers in different countries, but you say that it’s wrong and you need to either drive the tanks under your own power or transport along the railway, and where from the railway line to the front it’s far for the march on your own, you need the front move to this thread.
                        I-ZU-MI-TEL-BUT!
                        Quote: Kars
                        Okay, everything clearly began to disown their words)))

                        I??? belay Where is it? But this is you:
                        Quote: Kars
                        I did not say that.

                        Aha! THIS "I SPEAKED":
                        Quote: Kars
                        This is a little expensive
                        Quote: Kars
                        Quote: atalef

                        So self-propelled, cheaper.?

                        How many diesel fuel and spare parts for a tank can you buy if you sell one such trailer?
                        laughing laughing laughing
                      7. +1
                        28 December 2014 08: 47
                        Quote: Kars
                        Have we limited travel distances somewhere? I .... originally spoke of large countries.

                        Israel is territorially very large country! Initially, it was all about Israel, right?
                        Quote: Kars
                        But if you prove that Israel is a large country then okay

                        Are you talking? Clear...
                        To always be right, you have to constantly jump from position to position and change your point of view to the opposite so often that you no longer notice the contradictions in your comments?
                        Well, now about the quality of your "evidence" and "arguments"
                        Having concocted abstruse nonsense and entangled in your own contradictions, are you trying to humiliate me and thereby rise in your eyes?
                        Quote: Kars
                        who would say))) normal)))

                        Quote: Kars
                        This is you talking nonsense)

                        Quote: Kars
                        You just goof and start dodging,

                        Quote: Kars
                        And are you normal after that?

                        Quote: Kars
                        Yes, yes))) of course)) normal see le nashol))

                        Quote: Kars
                        What say you hard case

                        Quote: Kars
                        what do you clown got into the topic without understanding anything)))

                        Bravo, Kars!
                        There is evidence of your "rightness"!
                        What erudition and knowledge of the question! What a flight of fancy and depth of thought.
                        What iron arguments have you cited here.
                        Even I find it difficult to pick up an epithet worthy of you.
                        I think that the definition
                        Quote: Kars
                        clown

                        just right for you. Only the second syllable is not "un", but "van"
                      8. +3
                        28 December 2014 12: 19
                        Quote: Normal

                        Oh Great Kars!

                        I will stop there. I agree. And you will bring a certificate of normality then come.
                      9. -1
                        28 December 2014 15: 24
                        Quote: Kars
                        And you bring a certificate of normality

                        You? I'm afraid I won’t find a psychiatrist who will vouch for your normality.
                        Quote: Kars
                        I will stop there.

                        Why is it so sour? There is also the title "The Greatest" There is room to grow, and a place in the same room as Napoleon is so prestigious. wink
                      10. +4
                        28 December 2014 15: 42
                        Quote: Normal
                        You? I'm afraid n

                        Me. And I didn’t take the Normal nickname for myself to prove it.
                      11. -2
                        29 December 2014 00: 19
                        Quote: Kars
                        Me

                        Normal is not required to prove NOT normal to its normality.

                        Quote: Kars
                        I didn’t take myself a Normal nickname to prove it.

                        To be confident in their normality is the norm.
                        To inconvenience that someone considers himself normal - nonsense and abnormality
                      12. +2
                        29 December 2014 00: 22
                        Quote: Normal
                        Normal is not required to prove NOT normal to its normality.

                        Is it you so reassuring yourself?
                      13. -1
                        29 December 2014 00: 29
                        You.
                        And what, any doubts?
                      14. +1
                        29 December 2014 00: 58
                        Quote: Normal
                        You.

                        You are indifferent to me))) so an amusing clown with a Troll nickname)) who cannot provide a certificate to confirm his application.
                        Quote: Normal
                        And what, any doubts?

                        you have caused so much nonsense, starting from the very first comment you screwed up that there are no special doubts, you are normal except in your imagination.
                        It’s just not clear why you climbed into the tank theme if there wasn’t a boom boom in it?
              2. +2
                27 December 2014 15: 24
                Quote: atalef
                So self-propelled, cheaper.?

                Watching where. In general, it is optimal on railway platforms.
              3. +1
                28 December 2014 14: 51
                often under its own power it is the only option.
            2. +3
              27 December 2014 21: 16
              Quote: Kars
              I represent the tank division


              I can imagine how the commander of the DRG or Ka-52 crew is presented to the state award for the destruction of the super-tank division, kosher moving on trailers ...)))
            3. +1
              28 December 2014 01: 29
              Quote: Kars
              This is a costly pleasure, especially for large countries. I represent the tank division on trailers.

              In Russia, also on trailers, if
              1. +3
                28 December 2014 01: 39
                Quote: Pimply
                In Russia, also on trailers, if

                I don’t deny that the tank can be transported on trailers and this is done. But not everywhere. And not in mass quantities. In Ukraine, only damaged tanks are transported on the trailer in Ukraine and so on under their own power or on the piece of iron.

                but the Pakistanis
                1. -1
                  28 December 2014 13: 23
                  Quote: Kars
                  I don’t deny that the tank can be transported on trailers and this is done. But not everywhere. And not in mass quantities. In Ukraine, only damaged tanks are transported on the trailer in Ukraine and so on under their own power or on the piece of iron.

                  In Israel, trailers are transported in view of the fact that it is easier than a piece of iron - the distances are not the same. And so - the optimum delivery of the tank is not on its own, to save resources
                  1. 0
                    28 December 2014 18: 49
                    Quote: Pimply
                    In Israel, trailers are transported in view of the fact that it’s easier than a piece of iron - the distances are not the same

                    We still have more piece of iron. And then it was easier. A pair of engineering and road platoons, with BAT-M, PKT and IMR-kami, and engineering bridge building, with a USM make a path so that they reach a place without much tension, on their own what Well, you can’t sleep, a couple of nights request
                    1. -1
                      29 December 2014 14: 07
                      Quote: perepilka
                      We still have more piece of iron. And then it was easier. A pair of engineering and road platoons, with BAT-M, PKT and IMR-kami, and engineering bridge building, with USM make a path so that they reach a place without much stress, under their own power Well, you can’t sleep, a couple of nights


                      Resource is wasted anyway
                      1. 0
                        29 December 2014 21: 30
                        Quote: Pimply
                        Resource is wasted anyway

                        Less than unprepared route request , for that, and a resource to spend, or take care of it until it rusts? what
                      2. -1
                        30 December 2014 05: 26
                        Quote: perepilka
                        Less than on an unprepared route, for that and a resource to spend, or take care of it until it rusts?

                        Protect until needed in battle or training
          3. -3
            27 December 2014 14: 28
            Quote: atalef
            Well, generally normal patsans (not from advanced armies) drive tanks on throttles. and you’re all marching over rough terrain - I wonder if you know what age is in the yard?

            Pancake! Ahrenet-the latest Israeli tank also on the trailer to the place of application should be taken !!! ?? belay laughing wassat Now I almost fell out of my chair from laughter! laughing You can’t say anything, tank, what you need! laughing lol But does he even know how to ride, or are tankers pulling him on a cable ?? wassat
            Miracles!

            Quote: atalef
            To school, and primary

            Please do not make laugh like that anymore, take pity on innocent users of the site! lol
            1. +3
              27 December 2014 15: 00
              No, well, I understand there, if for example, tanks from the Moscow region transfer tanks to Rostov, this is understandable, we carry them on railway trains.
              But you then lol sorry, that Israel is seven by eight! laughing Are they afraid of sand?
            2. +6
              27 December 2014 19: 02
              Quote: GSH-18
              Pancake! Ahrenet-the latest Israeli tank also on the trailer to the place of use must be taken !!! ??
              The normal practice of preserving the EXPENSIVE tank life. If there is such an opportunity, then it simply needs to be used ...
              1. -1
                29 December 2014 08: 13
                Quote: svp67
                The normal practice of preserving the EXPENSIVE tank life. If there is such an opportunity, then it simply needs to be used ..

                Well, why do you need such a motor resource that tractors with trailers are still needed to save it! What kind of tank is this? Before you let him into battle, you still have to think, let it go or not ?? wassat Suddenly the motor resource will be more expensive!
                I don’t even remember that the T-34 was transported on trailers during the 2nd World War. And with their motor resources everything was in order, they arrived at Berlin, defeating the Wehrmacht along the way! good
            3. +1
              28 December 2014 13: 25
              Quote: GSH-18
              Pancake! Ahrenet-the latest Israeli tank also on the trailer to the place of use must be taken !!! ?? Now I almost fell out of my chair from laughter! You can’t say anything, tank, what you need! But does he even know how to ride, or are tankers pulling him on a cable ??
              Miracles!

              . Do you even know what the average resource of a tank engine is? And that in Russia, too, tanks rarely go under their own power except on exercises or short distances - saving the resource of this engine itself?
              1. 0
                28 December 2014 14: 17
                What distances do you have there? smile
                400 kilometers long and 100 wide (at its widest point).
                The tank must reach at one refueling. It's just that your monster called the Merkava will "kill" all the roads along the way, it can crush several cars, and off-road its movement is somewhat problematic due to its low cross-country ability and high fuel consumption.
              2. 0
                29 December 2014 08: 22
                Quote: Pimply
                And that in Russia, too, tanks rarely go under their own power except in exercises

                Well, yes, we also carry excavators with tracked tractors on platforms. And this is not because of concern for the engine’s engine life (in peacetime, tanks are not driven so often and far), but because all roads are asphalted. After the tank column one hundred percent road repair! Do you know how much one kilometer of a federal highway costs?
                The "resource" of your engines is resting.
                1. 0
                  29 December 2014 10: 04
                  from durik ....

                  Well, read at least once a line of motor resources, that of tanks, that of construction equipment.
                2. -2
                  29 December 2014 14: 16
                  Quote: GSH-18
                  Well, yes, we also carry excavators with tracked tractors on platforms. And this is not because of concern for the engine’s engine life (in peacetime, tanks are not driven so often and far), but because all roads are asphalted. After the tank column one hundred percent road repair! Do you know how much one kilometer of a federal highway costs?

                  That's right, and that too. And also a resource of engines
      11. +1
        27 December 2014 12: 48
        The fact that Merkava is not suitable for an offensive war is obvious - too heavy (and therefore unreliable) for long marches over rough terrain, not able to overcome water barriers, doesn’t pass bridges everywhere, is too gluttonous for fuel, can consume only diesel fuel, etc. Since the tank was not created for offensive operations, we forgive him these shortcomings.

        Consider its effectiveness in terms of its profile - fire support for infantry in a limited theater of operations. Here I immediately begin to be confused by similar arguments about yours about the number of "irretrievably lost tanks." If the tank is hit by an ATGM or RPG and it is unable to continue the battle - it is simply disabled, the armor is pierced and the crew is damaged, or the tank is irretrievably lost - it does not matter, then this means that the tank WAS NOT RUNNING. In any case, he does not provide support for the infantry. And the infantry who died from machine gun fire and RPGs in the absence of tank support - I think it will be all the same - then the repaired tank returned to service or not.
        1. -1
          28 December 2014 20: 23
          An elephant, minus for a repeat, soon I will report to the moderators about such methods of rating increase
      12. 0
        27 December 2014 13: 00
        and I would love to read your article comparing you listed tanks
      13. +2
        27 December 2014 14: 09
        Oh yes, "Abrams" are an incredibly fantastic technique. Their creator personally typed IDDQD for everyone! We are now khan.
      14. +1
        27 December 2014 20: 03
        I did not read the article, because there were no real clashes between units armed with these MBTs, there was no information, there were no specialists, but there would be a gap between incompetent sons of Israel and domestic BTT lovers. lol
        But I know nothing about the second Lebanon war, I’ll ask a question: what kind and to whom
        Quote: Katsin
        KAZ immediately gives the coordinates of the firing ATGM
        ?
        Georaphic, flat rectangular, polar, bipolar?
        And how does KAZ determine the range with which a guided projectile fired, rather than a projectile flying along a ballistic trajectory?
        Or does he define something else, but about the coordinates for the "catch phrase"?
        1. +1
          27 December 2014 23: 24
          Quote: Alekseev
          I did not read the article, because there were no real clashes between units armed with these MBTs, there was no information, no specialists

          Yes, the probability of a meeting between Merkav and the T-90 with Russian crews in a clash is zero in any scenario.
          1. 0
            29 December 2014 10: 10
            tank biathlon =)
        2. 0
          29 December 2014 10: 09
          Well, in this case, the direction is quite enough, and if you also attach the machine gun to automation, then it’s bad for the shooter. The windbreaker works quite efficiently a lot of videos were. I hope that our arena is no worse.
      15. 0
        27 December 2014 20: 54
        Dear, what do you think the training of crews matters? We invite you next year to perform at the merkavas in the tank biathlon :)))
        To hell with it a T90 tank with a rather long beard, but I have an opinion that when detonating the ammunition one horseradish is merkava that is T90, and given the much greater mobility, cross-country ability, smaller size, the possibility of using guided missile weapons - what can you say? and if the rocket does not fly at a reflected spot, but 3-4 meters below the beam? Already there are similar developments ... Active protection will not work. At the expense of Cornet-E how many of your opponents had them. A metis or a bassoon mostly, moreover with active IR illumination and without thermal imagers? And which of them shot? In order to shoot normally from an ATGM, you need to make dozens of shots ... So this is not an indicator of your comparison. Then, if you dragged your Merkavas, then did you undermine the T-72 on the field? I doubt that Merkava is much more maintainable in a simple garage.
      16. +1
        27 December 2014 23: 00
        Of course you want this, because Abrams have uranium in shells and in armor. What kind of Israeli wants a radioactive contamination of the area in Israel.
      17. The comment was deleted.
      18. -1
        28 December 2014 00: 24
        Old Jewish tales about the main thing))) "There are no losses." Somewhere I have already heard this nonsense and more than once))))
        The bike was especially impressed by the fact that the cylinder block stopped the cumulative stream))) Five points per bike !!!
      19. +4
        28 December 2014 05: 26
        I'm not going to minus. I will say one thing that it is not necessary to pull the 48th panties on the 60th ass. The chariot is a tank for the Palestinian theater of operations. No more. The machine is not capable of making thousand-kilometer marches. This time. For comparison, I can say that the endurance of the tracks of Russian tanks was from 3000 to 5000 km. Already by this indicator alone, one can judge the viability of the machine. That is, the designer, while developing the car, looked back at the requirements of the army and, in particular, the military situations being worked out. And they proceeded from the fact that the network of railways and transport roads would either be hit or captured (the front was moving) and the tanks had to get to the place on their own. An example is exercises in the Far East in Russia. Tanks and crews traveled thousands and more kilometers. Themselves. Without rails, wheels and other horsepower that usually carries them. Make a conclusion. Merkava has no such possibilities. And not because they were not provided, but because the tank was created for a specific theater of operations and nothing more. Therefore, it is no longer possible to extol a "small-town" tank in comparison with a multifunctional one. His mobility and stamina are severely limited. And as you know, in war you do not shoot so much as you work and, in particular, you drive. I do not want to mock the chariot, because it has good qualities, I am sure, but the tank is only for the IDF. That's the whole answer. The issue of resistance to projectiles is a matter of application in the first place. Our vehicles, as well as western ones, are designed for tank-tank or tank-UR type battles. That is, according to their characteristics, the machines are designed to participate in a frontal battle, where the sides will not have to be substituted with proper control and command. And if you have it only in "hand-to-hand" tank for tank. Merkava is constantly at war with the infantry. That is, against RPGs and ATGMs in urban environments. Consequently, growth does not play a special role there. It can still be seen from a kilometer away, whether it is two or four meters. The question is about protecting the car. Moreover, a circular protection plan. Dome. Because it hits the stern, sides and above. Engine protection is highly questionable if the mech sits to the left of the engine. Logically, it should then be behind the engine, as on our BMPs. However, whoever will hammer him in the forehead. They usually figure in the sides and roof. So for a tank, this protection is questionable. But the fact that there is a troop compartment on the tank is good. But then, this is not a tank, but rather a heavy infantry fighting vehicle, weighing under 70 tons. And this, dear friend, is already different MBT classes.
      20. +1
        28 December 2014 14: 37
        Katsin, trophy can not give the coordinates of the shooter, because there the radar does not work for many kilometers, it gives out the direction from which it arrived.
      21. 0
        28 December 2014 21: 24
        Quote: Katsin
        Regarding the T-90, I’ll say this: I would prefer that Egypt and the Saudis have T-90, and not Abrams

        And three T-90s instead of one Abrams? How do you like this ratio?
    3. +2
      27 December 2014 07: 41
      Cartoon Baalsha PLUS.
    4. +1
      27 December 2014 10: 05
      Advertising t-90
    5. Pervusha Isaev
      +3
      27 December 2014 12: 31
      Quote: 290980
      A good advertising article, I hope that this is really so.




      crap, some kind of your video, neither to the village nor to the city ...
    6. Pervusha Isaev
      -2
      27 December 2014 12: 38
      in general, I am inclined to think that the T-90S is now the best tank in the WORLD and even the future Armata, it is not known what kind of animal it will not be able to compete with the T90s for a long time, which is essentially the best tank of the Soviet-Russian tank building school and which is the TOP of the development of the T72 concept / T90 ...
      1. -7
        27 December 2014 12: 45
        Quote: Pervusha Isaev
        I'm generally inclined to think that the T-90S is now the best tank in the WORLD

        Well, that's just the case. if Kozitsyn is a commander.
        1. Pervusha Isaev
          +1
          27 December 2014 13: 04
          Quote: atalef
          Well, that's just the case. if Kozitsyn is a commander.


          Well, if T90S and Kozitsin met, then in this version they would reach Lamansh or Telaviv ...
          1. -3
            27 December 2014 13: 19
            Quote: Pervusha Isaev
            Well, if T90S and Kozitsin met, then in this version they would reach Lamansh or Telaviv ..

            Moreover, on the same tank and at the same time.
            1. Pervusha Isaev
              +1
              27 December 2014 13: 26
              Quote: atalef
              Moreover, on the same tank and at the same time.


              in what you say it makes no sense ...
            2. +8
              27 December 2014 14: 11
              Yes, you still drive! The Merkava will break all invaders from Alpha Centauri just by its appearance. All the invaders will die laughing ...
        2. 0
          27 December 2014 14: 52
          Quote: atalef
          Quote: Pervusha Isaev
          I'm generally inclined to think that the T-90S is now the best tank in the WORLD

          Well, that's just the case. if Kozitsyn is a commander.

          Well, here again .. Purely Jewish approach lol
    7. +4
      27 December 2014 13: 51
      Merkavas Mk4, 11 of the 24 vehicles that took part in the fighting were hit by anti-tank missiles. The enemy didn’t have heavy weapons, Moreover, Israel secured its complete air supremacy..

      It's just a SHAME! belay
    8. 0
      29 December 2014 11: 13
      Merkava is an internal and specific tank for certain conditions, I don’t think they can sell it.
  2. +26
    27 December 2014 06: 45
    In India, our tanks passed the most severe crash test and the order was signed. Anything hardly bought.
    It is a pity that at a dear price. The General Designer is dead. Bow to the ground, let the earth rest in peace.
    1. +10
      27 December 2014 06: 49
      Vladimir Ivanovich, he put his whole soul in, it happened and gave his life ...
      Everlasting memory!!!
    2. +1
      27 December 2014 07: 53
      Quote: yurikh
      In India, our tanks passed the most severe crash test and the order was signed

      In India, the Soviet Union built a tank assembly plant under the T-72 - so there were no alternatives there.
      1. +6
        27 December 2014 14: 12
        It is strange that the United States did not build a plant for assembling "Abrams" there. True?
        1. +4
          27 December 2014 14: 34
          Quote: LvKiller
          It is strange that the United States did not build a plant for assembling "Abrams" there. True?

          No, it’s not strange. The United States has traditionally supported Pakistan. But the British were building it. And Vijayanta, in my opinion, is still in service with the Indian army.
      2. 0
        27 December 2014 21: 17
        In India, at their factory (a full copy of the UVZ tank assembly workshops), three hundred tanks were not able to assemble their own
        1. +1
          27 December 2014 21: 34
          Quote: uwzek
          In India, at their factory (a full copy of the UVZ tank assembly workshops), three hundred tanks were not able to assemble their own

          Well, there can be two answers, either as pupils of Krivorukov or teachers didn’t say something. Well, you know how to bring files in jokes and you pour alcohol?

          And so it all came down to the economy. India bought a lot of T-72 under the USSR, a plant in Avadi, a tank repair plant, no need to greatly retrain the tank crews, finally just the price.
  3. +18
    27 December 2014 06: 56
    52 Jewish tanks were lost in Lebanon, well, right now, the Jews will appear on the site and tell with special zeal what they will “lose.” And how many crew members died, the Jews said they had only one concussion, and they scratched another's ear. smile
    1. +7
      27 December 2014 07: 10
      Well, right now the Jews will appear on the site and tell with special zeal that
      Yeah, schazz professor will catch up, and ... am in general, mom do not cry laughing
    2. -2
      27 December 2014 08: 14
      Quote: Igor39
      52 Jewish tanks were lost in Lebanon, well, right now, the Jews will appear on the site and tell with special zeal what they will “lose.” And how many crew members died, the Jews said they had only one concussion, and they scratched another's ear. smile

      Sorry, but the article is complete bullshit, with so many distortions of facts (not just being in the open press, but also discussed at VO - at least 100 times)
      Starting from the loss in Lebanon and ending with the Merkava suspension, the article is intended exclusively for shkolota and to breed another one ... on the site
      Well, let alone a minimal analyson does not pull at all, the minus article is boring negative
      1. +13
        27 December 2014 08: 19
        Quote: atalef
        Sorry, but the article is complete bullshit, with so many juggling facts

        I liked the landing and landing - for some reason, the huge stern hatch is not taken into account.
        1. +5
          27 December 2014 08: 27
          Quote: Kars
          Quote: atalef
          Sorry, but the article is complete bullshit, with so many juggling facts

          I liked the landing and landing - for some reason, the huge stern hatch is not taken into account.

          but the author does not know about him laughing
          1. +3
            27 December 2014 09: 07
            Quote: atalef
            but the author does not know about him laughing

            He probably knows, because he indicated about the evacuation of the wounded from the battlefield. Just do not think about its other use.
            But about the sale of "Merkava" to Singapore - I immediately had a question about the expediency of supplying them to a region with a tropical climate and rather unstable soils. On the other hand, all imported tanks have a mass greater than that of the T-72/90, so there is no particular alternative.
            1. +2
              28 December 2014 17: 24
              On the contrary, Singapore is a state with developed infrastructure, although it is an island and is located in Southeast Asia, a road network - communication lines, an excellent means of maintaining high operational and tactical mobility of troops with the possibility of creating strong points (including MTO points) in their immediate vicinity, and high urbanization country, confirms the need for a caterpillar (overcoming damage, blockages as a result of the database) machine with a high level of circular protection.
              1. +2
                28 December 2014 17: 34
                Good article about Singapore
                http://topwar.ru/21559-aziatskiy-tankograd.html
              2. +1
                29 December 2014 10: 44
                The most important point in choosing the type of tanks for Singapore, the area of ​​the state is approximately 700 sq. Km. Accordingly, they need equipment for conducting battles in defense and in settlements. Plus, as you wrote, a developed road network. Here "carrot" is just right.
            2. The comment was deleted.
          2. The comment was deleted.
          3. +5
            27 December 2014 11: 49
            Quote: atalef
            and the author does not know about him laughing

            The author does not know about the mortar in Morkovka

            Merkava Mk4 firepower is provided by a complex of weapons, including a 120-mm cannon-launcher, 7,62 mm and 12,7 mm machine guns. The latter can be replaced with a 40 mm automatic grenade launcher. The installation of a 40 mm grenade launcher confirms the main purpose of the tank - the fight against enemy manpower

            Sanya, with the Energy Day passed! Hi Andrey!
            1. 0
              27 December 2014 12: 14
              Quote: perepilka
              Sanya, with the Energy Day passed! Hi Andrey!

              Hi Volodya !!!
              With NG, you and the whole family, and of course with the past day, the power engineer, and so that the frequency in the network is constant. drinks
              1. 0
                27 December 2014 12: 50
                Quote: atalef
                The frequency in the network was remote. drinks

                We don’t care about the frequency. Snow is sticking on wires, we run along dozens like bobiks, day and night I got it already. Yesterday, the wind blew right, and today, again quietly. But while pah-pah, it’s normal.
                And all of you with the Coming drinks
                You are able to drinks and they won’t call, although they don’t look at the time of damage, laughing
                1. +2
                  27 December 2014 13: 01
                  Quote: perepilka
                  Snow sticking on wires, running dozens like bobiks, got it all day and night already

                  Well, we have no problems with this, although now is the 3rd day of the strike
                  The trade union committee of the Israel Electric Company announced the start of an "immediate strike".

                  The reason is the government’s refusal to sign a previously agreed reform of the Electric Company.

                  The strike was declared immediately after the meeting of the Knesset Committee on Economics, which decided to renew the existing license of the Electric Company, despite previous agreements.

                  Miko Tsarfati, head of the Company's trade union committee, said: “The refusal of the state to sign the reform agreement is another milestone on the road to the collapse of the Electric Company. More importantly, this will lead to the layoff of hundreds of temporary Company workers, mainly in the periphery, and these people in the ranks of the unemployed. "

                  The Ministry of Finance, in turn, said that a unilateral decision to start a strike violates existing legislation and previous agreements with the state.

                  It would be nice if it lasted until NG. drinks
                  1. +4
                    27 December 2014 13: 25
                    Quote: atalef
                    although now is the 3rd day of the strike

                    And we have, on railway transport, a ban on such, and we have the Charter, instead of the Labor Code, only with the USSR disappeared what
                    In general, before, at least die, but the trains should go, and now, just do something, but the trains should go, and die only during non-working hours, so as not to pay too much. request
            2. 0
              27 December 2014 13: 23
              This mortar is intended primarily for shooting lighting. So it's not worth attaching it to "firepower".
              1. +6
                27 December 2014 13: 31
                Quote: Spade
                This mortar is designed primarily for shooting lighting.

                Yes, it’s not here, however, at the WoT forum, Israeli tankers claimed that they were fragmentation-wise, but they had a lively, well, full-fledged scope, they took it behind cover.
                1. 0
                  27 December 2014 13: 45
                  Nonsense. The mortar is short, new ammunition with increased power from it is difficult to use, the accuracy is low ... In short, the most likely outcome of using HE mines from this mortar is that the "living force" will simply understand that it has been detected and move.
                  1. +3
                    28 December 2014 01: 34
                    Quote: Spade
                    Nonsense. The mortar is short, new ammunition with increased power from it is difficult to use, the accuracy is low ... In short, the most likely outcome of using HE mines from this mortar is that the "living force" will simply understand that it has been detected and move.


                    It just so happened that I have one of the army specialties - just on this mortar. He’s quite accurate.
      2. -20
        27 December 2014 09: 47
        The article is complete bullshit, in addition to the distortion of well-known facts, there is a silence that the T-90 did not take part in real hostilities, so there is nothing to talk about. Anyway - in the future, the replacement of current tanks with mobile robotic combat complexes. Russia, as before, is far from at the forefront, but kvass patriotism rolls over ...
        1. +11
          27 December 2014 12: 03
          Quote: Arestant
          Russia, as before, is far from at the forefront, but kvass patriotism rolls over ...

          Come on laughing It’s their own fault that you don’t have a national drink, they didn’t take Berlin three times, they didn’t conquer Siberia, they didn’t go to Spitsbergen and Novaya Zemlya. So your patriotism, no turns request laughing
          1. +3
            28 December 2014 00: 07
            How is it not a national drink! The whole country drinks coffee around the clock. And Siberia, Svalbard and Novaya Zemlya, the white bears master the white bears - it's cold there. smile
        2. 0
          27 December 2014 14: 01
          Quote: Arestant
          Article - Full Bullshit

          I also do not agree with everything on the article, but I'm trying to sort out the points.
          And yet, lay out not "bullshit". Or failed writers become critics, is that about you? But you do not pull criticism either. For a start, at least, give reasons, not in general, but point by point, what is the author of the bullshit. At the expense of robotization, a person can not replace anything.
          what Although, the article really looks like an advertisement.
        3. 0
          27 December 2014 14: 14
          A carrot against whom is fighting, do not tell? Against abrek with a sawn-off shotgun. That’s the whole truth ...
          1. +2
            27 December 2014 14: 28
            Quote: LvKiller
            A carrot against whom is fighting, do not tell? Against abrek with a sawn-off shotgun. That’s the whole truth ...

            and t-90? Against Chechnya with a dagger?
        4. 0
          27 December 2014 14: 47
          Quote: Arestant
          T-90 did not take part in real hostilities

          What?? belay Are you sure of this? lol
          1. +1
            27 December 2014 16: 10
            Quote: GSH-18
            What?? belay Are you sure about this? lol

            Enlighten me dark - where and when did the T-90 take part in hostilities?
            1. +5
              27 December 2014 20: 05
              T-90 - "extreme" modernization of the T-72. I think that comparing the Merkava and the T-72 is not correct. Merkava as MBT cannot be recognized in many countries. Too specific and not suitable for most countries in the world.
              Then, in terms of performance, the T-72 (90) is unrivaled. How many, for example, a month can Merkav produce and how many T-72 (90)? If a roasted rooster pecks, then ordering and delivering the same engines and other components will take time. By the way, the first Indian T-90s were made from old T-72 cases, which were installed at the Semipalatinsk armored vehicles repair plant. And how many of these T-72s throughout the Union? And the concept of the use of tanks during the Soviet era was designed for quantitative superiority - with armored tanks to roll Europe. For such purposes, there should be a relatively cheap tank from the economic side. Now it is not in vain that there is a wave of the high cost of Almaty. If it is too expensive, then there is no need to talk about mass character. How many Challengers and Leopards of the latest models have been released, but Merkav?
              Merkava cannot have commercial success, therefore it is not appropriate to compare in this component. For example, the Merkava can approach Kazakhstan, but we do not have such a developed road infrastructure to deliver the Chariot on trailers to any theater of action. Maintenance can cost a pretty penny, the terms of repairs due to different manufacturers of components can be stretched, climatic conditions (from -40 to +40 with steppe "drafts" and humidity from 0 to 95%).
              1. +2
                27 December 2014 23: 53
                You, uv. Kasym presented everything very correctly. Merkava was created for the specifics of Israel and with no intention of obtaining commercial benefits. If demand arises, it will be processed taking into account the customer's requirements. As far as I know, this issue is not on the agenda today. In this article, I am amused by the very formulation of the question - here, they say, the Merkava, according to the ratings, is one of the best tanks in the world, but our own T-90 is better. And it doesn't matter that he has never been involved in any battle, damn it, he's better, period! By the way, the Israelis themselves do not like to praise their ideas, they improve them taking into account real combat experience. And Israeli tankers also have a saying: "A tank is just a piece of iron, a good tanker is stronger than steel." Somewhere like that ...
                1. 0
                  28 December 2014 11: 45
                  "Merkava, according to ratings, is one of the best tanks in the world"
                  I watched the Discovery broadcast. They recognized the best tank of the Second World Comet. Oh well!

                  "If demand arises, it will be processed taking into account the customer's requirements"
                  How many years they produce, but there is no demand ...
                  And the T-90 period from 2001 to 2010 became the best-selling new MBT on the world market.

                  "And it doesn't matter that he was never involved in any battle" In Chechnya.
                  1. +2
                    28 December 2014 12: 33
                    Merkava has not acquired (and will not), not a single country in the world.
                    Although only with my short presence here it has already been "sold" to at least Colombia and Singapore.
                    Before that "sold" to Chile, Poland and Georgia smile
                    And everywhere this turned out to be only the "ardent desire" of Israeli writers.
                    This tank, except for Israel, is not needed by anyone and no one will buy it, due to the super-high price and "imprisonment" only for punitive operations.
                    1. 0
                      28 December 2014 20: 25
                      Imagine Merkava in the humid jungle of Colombia in a camouflage of coca leaves !!!
                      I'm wallowing!
            2. 0
              28 December 2014 01: 25
              Quote: Arestant
              Enlighten me dark - where and when did the T-90 take part in hostilities?

              In Chechnya, during the last anti-terrorist operation. In the same place, in real combat conditions, "Black Shark" helicopters were "tested".
              1. 0
                28 December 2014 22: 09
                Quote: GSH-18
                In Chechnya, during the last anti-terrorist operation. In the same place, in real combat conditions, "Black Shark" helicopters were "tested".

                The Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation has not officially confirmed the fact of the participation of at least one product in the hostilities in Chechnya or on other theater of operations. So your info does not inspire confidence ...
                1. 0
                  29 December 2014 08: 36
                  Quote: Arestant
                  The Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation has not officially confirmed the fact of the participation of at least one product in the hostilities in Chechnya or on other theater of operations. So your info does not inspire confidence

                  Our MO is far from confirming everything, just like yours.
                  I have been living in Russia for a long time, right from birth. And I remember newspaper articles of that time, and eyewitness accounts.
                  And you will continue to use the "ultra-accurate" Internet data! request
                  Even a film has been made about the "run-in" of "Black Shark". I think about the participation of the T-90, too, you can dig up on the internet without any problems. But I repeat once again, I had this information from the participants in the hostilities of that time.
        5. 0
          27 December 2014 21: 32
          On earth, even a man cannot lead a multi-ton machine without errors. So far they are afraid to use robots even for parking due to insecurity and emerging legal nuances. An unmanned tank is such a distant fairy tale that you can not even bother (which is what all tank manufacturers demonstrate).
          1. +1
            28 December 2014 22: 23
            Quote: uwzek
            So far they are afraid to use robots even for parking due to insecurity and emerging legal nuances. An unmanned tank is such a distant fairy tale

            I hasten to correct you - similar complexes already exist and are successfully used ...
            1. 0
              29 December 2014 08: 39
              Quote: Arestant
              successfully applied ..

              Examples of successful application in the studio!
              1. 0
                29 December 2014 17: 09
                Quote: GSH-18
                Examples of successful application in the studio!

                As easy as shelling pears - run a search here on the site, say, "combat robots", you will see a lot of publications.
                1. 0
                  29 December 2014 17: 48
                  Quote: Arestant
                  As easy as shelling pears - start a search here on the site, say, "combat robots"

                  You can still drive underground or underwater the tank. laughing
                  In fact, the conversation is about the actual adoption, not about еexperimental mуbusiness.
                  There in the USSR were combat laser systems and sho?
                  hi
    3. +1
      28 December 2014 05: 32
      Do not speak. Lovers of the same Jews to advertise their chariots. However, the fact - the most warring tank in the world is the T-72. And not because it is shit everywhere, but because it is simply reliable and that’s it.
    4. Portoss
      +1
      29 December 2014 00: 34
      These handsome men are always here.
  4. +5
    27 December 2014 07: 09
    The main thing is not which one is better, but how they know how to fight. And then the article resembles the pre-war song "The armor is strong and our tanks are fast." 3 months reached Moscow. And the T3s will still remain a modified 90-year-old T72 and nothing else. Nothing fundamentally new. We have tanks, and this must be admitted. And they took India just at the cost, and the opportunity to make them in the future.
    1. +15
      27 December 2014 08: 30
      Quote: Fedor Boltov
      But the T90s will still remain a modified forty-year-old T72 and nothing else. Nothing new. We have stagnation with tanks, and this must be admitted.

      Well, how old are Merkava, Abrams, or Leopard? Also stagnation?
      And why is the T90s worse than the Chinese Type-99 or the newest Indian Arjuna and the South Korean Black Panther?
      That's when the data on Armata will be declassified, then we will discuss whether there is stagnation in our tank troops
      1. +1
        27 December 2014 08: 34
        Quote: TroN
        South Korean Black Panther?

        Would you touch the Black Panther
    2. +2
      27 December 2014 12: 31
      American abrams of the same order, the T-72 platform, and you can invest in it, that the soul will devour the brains of the designers, and judging by the tank, the brains were attached to the right place
    3. -4
      27 December 2014 15: 32
      Quote: Fedor Boltov
      and the Germans, on modest T3s, sweeping away our vastly superior armada of the "best" tanks in the world, reached Moscow in 3 months

      You yourself realized that they wrote ?? belay At the beginning of the war, the Germans had both quantitative and technological superiority in tanks! Read the history of the Second World War.
      1. Orlando
        +7
        27 December 2014 17: 10
        there was no technological or quantitative advantage (rather, on the contrary) there was a new concept for the use of an armored fist and motorized infantry.
        1. -1
          29 December 2014 15: 06
          are you kidding me? at the beginning of the Second World War, the t-26, t-28, t-35 were in service with the USSR - all cardboard. It seems that there were no heavy tanks at all. Only with the advent of the KV ("Klim Voroshilov") and the swallow 34s began to bend the Germans.
          1. 0
            29 December 2014 16: 51
            Quote: silver_roman
            are you kidding me? at the beginning of the Second World War, the USSR was armed with t-26, t-28, t-35 - all cardboard. It seems that there were no heavy tanks at all. Only with the advent of KV ("Klim Voroshilov") and the swallow 34

            Hmm, the decoding of the designation KV and the mention of the T-35 among the cardboard ones especially touched. And yet, what you did not mention the QMS, generally depriving the USSR of heavy tanks ?!
            E-hehe, for your information, you are our knowledgeable, KV still managed to fight in Finnish.
            And by June 22, 1941 there were about 500 of them, of all modifications, and 34-ok swallows of about 1000 (although there were also swallows in the 41st).
            Technique, which is better, ha!
            1. 0
              29 December 2014 17: 23
              Quote: Cynic
              Hmm, the decoding of the designation KV and the mention of the T-35 among the cardboard ones especially touched. And yet, what you did not mention the QMS, generally depriving the USSR of heavy tanks ?!
              E-hehe, for your information, you are our knowledgeable, KV still managed to fight in Finnish.
              And by June 22, 1941 there were about 500 of them, of all modifications, and 34-ok swallows of about 1000 (although there were also swallows in the 41st).
              Technique, which is better, ha!

              Yes you are right. KV and 34 matches were a surprise for the Wehrmacht.
              However, quantity doesn't mean success. In the poorly lit page of the battles near Brody-Rovno, the main losses of KOVO - the South-Western Front suffered not in battles, but on stupid marches due to damage to the chassis and later - lack of fuel and lubricants and ammunition. The new KVs had transmission problems and could not walk a lot.
              At the same time, about 15% of all tanks at the beginning of the war were generally monuments.

              The comrade apparently means this - the low efficiency of the mechanized corps in the initial period of the Second World War.
              1. 0
                29 December 2014 18: 00
                Quote: iConst
                KV and 34 matches were a surprise for the Wehrmacht.

                Not so surprouchAt the same time, professionals worked in the Abwehr, here one can rather speak of the same underestimation of the enemy as in the Red Army with the Wehrmacht.
                Quote: iConst
                The comrade apparently means this - the low efficiency of the mechanized corps in the initial period of the Second World War.

                Sorry, but silver_roman spoke out absolutely definitely _
                Quote: silver_roman
                at the time of the beginning of the Second World War, the USSR was armed with t-26, t-28, t-35 — all cardboard. It seems that there were no heavy tanks at all.

                And the above quote is your vision of the problems of the Red Army in the 41st.
                Alas.
                hi
                1. 0
                  29 December 2014 18: 30
                  Quote: Cynic
                  Not such a surprise, professionals worked in Abwehr

                  It was a surprise, and very unpleasant. Intelligence (the abwehr had nothing to do with it - a completely different organization appeared later) knew about these tanks, but there were no combat performance statistics and they were not considered a serious adversary: ​​the French heavy tanks did not have any effect on the results of battles on the western front.

                  In fact, no Wehrmacht tank at the beginning of hostilities could effectively deal with HF - the most powerful was the PzKpfw IV with KwK 37 - but the short barrel and, as a result, the low initial velocity of the projectile did not help, despite 75mm.
                  The tasks of neutralizing the Russis Panzer were assigned to the artillery and self-propelled guns.
                  1. 0
                    29 December 2014 19: 38
                    Quote: iConst
                    Intelligence (abwehr has nothing to do with it - a completely different organization and appeared later)

                    Is it really so?
                    Abwehr called, in the period from 1920 to 1944, all official bodies and units of the Reichswehr, and later Wehrmacht, designed to carry out counterintelligence, espionage and sabotage acts.
                    Created in 1919 (the order of creation was signed only in 1921) by the government of the Weimar Republic. Since the terms of the Treaty of Versailles formally did not allow the creation of intelligence agencies in Germany, the functions of counterintelligence in the armed forces were formally assigned to the abwehr. In fact, the Abwehr carried out intelligence activities in relation to the USSR, Poland, Czechoslovakia, France, Great Britain and other countries.
                    Since 1935, it was headed by Admiral Wilhelm Canaris. In 1938, it was reorganized into the Directorate of Intelligence and Counterintelligence of the Supreme High Command of the Armed Forces of Germany. Since the fall of 1940, the main efforts were directed against the USSR according to the measures of the Barbarossa plan.

                    Quote: iConst
                    and they were not considered a serious adversary

                    Yes, as if talking about it himself.
                    request
                    hi
                    1. 0
                      30 December 2014 17: 15
                      Quote: Cynic
                      In the period from 1920 to 1944 all official instances were called Abwehr.

                      Right! Nonsense froze - thanks for the amendment.
                      I thought a little about something else. And smile
                      1. 0
                        30 December 2014 17: 27
                        Quote: iConst
                        Right! Nonsense froze - thanks for the amendment.

                        Not really, you inattentively read the quote _
                        Quote: Cynic
                        Since the terms of the Treaty of Versailles formally did not allow the creation of intelligence agencies in Germany, the functions of counterintelligence in the armed forces were formally assigned to the abwehr.

                        Probably this is with you and was deposited in your memory.
                        By the way, and after the Second World War, something the same happened.
                        If you read the inscription “buffalo” on the elephant’s cage, do not believe your eyes.

                        drinks
            2. 0
              29 December 2014 18: 19
              Quote: Cynic
              touched decoding designations KV

              but what did you dear make you be so touched?
              those. do you think that the 50 mm forehead of the t-35 is powerful armor? Now you are touching me, dear.
              but at the expense of years of HF I drove away, then I admit.
              and 34-ke: I had in mind the appearance of the t-34-85, when they had already pulled it up, both in terms of total armor and caliber.
              1. 0
                29 December 2014 20: 02
                Quote: silver_roman
                but what did you dear make you be so touched?
                those. do you think that the 50 mm forehead of the t-35 is powerful armor?

                Mmm, and I also claimed that
                Quote: silver_roman
                ... t-35 - all cardboard.

                Or was it approved by you, huh?
                And more
                Quote: silver_roman
                It seems that there were no heavy tanks at all

                You continue to assert further that the T-35 and the QMS (tower forehead 60 mm) weighing about fifty tons are not heavy ?!
                wink
                1. 0
                  29 December 2014 21: 14
                  let's just: I admit that the T-35 TT, but you must agree that his armor is extremely weak. in the frontal projection of 50 mm, even if there is a slope, but given the dimensions of the tank and the number of seats in the frontal projection (the same turrets), where the armor is generally small, it is difficult to call it well armored. I initially proceeded from the fact that there are no serious armored vehicles. I'm not right about the class account.

                  Initially, the message was that there were no worthy opponents to the Wehrmacht tanks, but I did not take into account the fact about the square. besides, there were not so many of them, and the T-34s were still damp, to say the least.
                  something like this.... laughing

                  and yet, that you are so touched in the abbreviation KV ???? Klim Voroshilov .... a great personality. in honor of him a tank. winked
                  1. 0
                    29 December 2014 21: 33
                    Quote: silver_roman
                    What touched you so much in the abbreviation KV?

                    Nothing in the abbreviation itself, here is a description of its decoding, yes.
                    Using the acronym IP, would you give the same decryption?
                    hi
                    1. 0
                      29 December 2014 23: 39
                      Quote: Cynic
                      Using the abbreviation IP, you would also bring its decoding

                      why not? I learned a lot from this forum, maybe someone does not know what the names of the IS and KV tanks mean. Agree, these are not few.
                  2. 0
                    29 December 2014 21: 44
                    Quote: silver_roman
                    but agree that

                    What is my consent or disagreement, the war itself put everything in its place.
                    Moreover, for the future, it is not necessary to get so fixated on the thickness of the armor, which is not a fundamental indicator.
                    Well, you mentioned the T-IV, the thickness of the armor is quite comparable with the T-34 and even surpasses in some places, but what's the point?
                    hi
                    1. +1
                      29 December 2014 22: 06
                      No, all the same, it is necessary for Ulanov’s book to receive wide coverage.
                      http://flibusta.net/b/237970
                    2. 0
                      29 December 2014 23: 44
                      Of course, the thickness is far from everything, but very much means as well as its distribution over the hull, the tilt of the armor, the chassis, the engine, and the gun itself.
                      the latest modifications of the t-34-85 seem to even be equal in total armor to the panthers.
                      Quote: Cynic
                      then here is my consent or disagreement, the war itself put everything in its place.

                      the war did not determine which tank is better and which is worse. here completely different factors played.
                      By the way, they often compare the t-90 and merkava, Pak fa with a raptor, Putin with Obama laughing , at least someone would compare the Royal Tiger with the IS-2. the stump is clear that everything would be by sight, but very funny. CT was a unique machine. it is so ... by the way
                      1. +1
                        30 December 2014 00: 15
                        Quote: silver_roman
                        , at least someone would compare the Royal Tiger with the IS-2.

                        You did not read how Baryatinsky compared them?
                      2. 0
                        30 December 2014 10: 53
                        No and I would greatly appreciate a link to the article!
                      3. +1
                        30 December 2014 12: 37
                        http://flibusta.net/b/357487
                        here the conclusions. as you read I will give one more interpretation.
                      4. 0
                        30 December 2014 16: 01
                        Quote: Kars
                        here the conclusions. as you read I will give one more interpretation.

                        Fundamentally nothing new.
                        Purely rhetorically, reading modern technology reviews everything is clear and understandable, except for one, why did the barbarians, the USSR, win?
                        hi
                      5. +1
                        30 December 2014 16: 57
                        Quote: Cynic
                        except one, why did the barbarians defeat the USSR?

                        this topic goes beyond the tank and includes many nuances ranging from the moral qualities of the population to the presence of strategic reserves of tungsten
                      6. 0
                        30 December 2014 17: 14
                        Quote: Kars
                        ending with strategic tungsten reserves

                        And barbarians are barbarians for that, by definition, they cannot understand what strategic reserves of tungsten are, but about their use ya !
                        Ну Kars , specifically indicated _
                        Quote: Cynic
                        Purely rhetorically

                        http://www.litmir.me/br/?b=111635&p=21
                        hi
                      7. +1
                        30 December 2014 17: 21
                        Quote: Cynic
                        specifically pointed _

                        And I answer rhetorical questions both here and in L. And then with current prices I can’t collect the full full of Isov)) and the Chinese comrades have already announced the T-10M
                        Quote: Cynic
                        And barbarians and barbarians

                        I don’t remember the Baryatinsky comparison of someone with the barbarians, or was it just hurt / hurt?
                        As for the picture, I don’t even remember when I drank vodka)))
                      8. 0
                        30 December 2014 17: 38
                        Quote: Kars
                        and the Chinese comrades have already announced the T-10M

                        Sick, all the models for a long time gave the boys a break.
                        bully
                      9. +1
                        30 December 2014 18: 07
                        Quote: Cynic
                        Got sick

                        Lack of perseverance?
                      10. 0
                        30 December 2014 18: 28
                        Quote: Kars
                        Not enough perseverance?

                        Yes, as if from morning to evening among the parts and components of the product, and quite often you see a car which is not, and the most modern everywhere and everywhere this T-72 ...
                        Only with the guys from the GSVG could you talk, and then only at the factory!
                        Immunity appeared.
                      11. +1
                        30 December 2014 19: 18
                        Quote: Cynic
                        Yes, as if from morning to evening among the parts and components of the product

                        Well, this is the cost of the profession. But it does not count, few can say this about tanks.
                      12. 0
                        30 December 2014 19: 40
                        Quote: Kars
                        few can say this about tanks.

                        In those days, several thousand, per million. laughing
                        And as for marine models, yes, you can say
                        Quote: Kars
                        Lack of perseverance?

                        True, the sailboat tried to collect ...
                      13. +1
                        30 December 2014 19: 51
                        Ships are not my format. If all goes well, sooner or later I will take myself a submarine on the 72 scale.
                  3. 0
                    30 December 2014 02: 51
                    Quote: silver_roman
                    initially the message was that there were no worthy opponents to the tanks of the Wehrmacht

                    very strange statement.
                    gave a link to the composition of the Wehrmacht tanks. Truly serious machines were only PzKpfw III and STUG III - about 1800 pieces.
                    but they were opposed by quite worthy tanks: T34, KV-1 and KV-2, T28, T35, SMK in no less. the remaining 4 thousand German vehicles, as well as part of the Romanian and Finnish ones, were no better than the light tanks of the USSR.
                    1. 0
                      30 December 2014 10: 56
                      the KV and t-34 itself are extremely serious opponents, but if my memory serves me, either they were few by the beginning of the Second World War, or they reached out a little later.
                      Well, I can’t call the T-28 a serious opponent. T-35 - essentially a large T-28, which also did not find itself.
                    2. 0
                      30 December 2014 17: 27
                      Quote: yehat
                      also part romanian and finnish were no better than the light tanks of the USSR.

                      About these tanks in more detail, please! Especially about the Finnish ones! smile
          2. 0
            30 December 2014 02: 42
            T28, T35 were quite serious competitors.
            another thing is the old T37, T60, BT-2, T26
            BT-7, I think, though not very strong, but still somehow competitive.
            They were failed not by TTX, but by equipment and actual use.
        2. 0
          30 December 2014 02: 35
          the issue is very controversial. new tanks of the USSR surpassed the Germans in armor, in guns, however, the review was worse. communication facilities were often completely absent, sighting equipment was also different, and the Germans, using these circumstances, as well as the interaction of the troops quite successfully fought with our tanks, except for a few crude blunders. The KV-1 was most often knocked out by regular artillery or dive bombers, less often 88mm anti-aircraft guns, because were sedentary and almost blind, and also poorly controlled in terms of real benefits on the battlefield.
          As for the numerous light tanks of the USSR, the Germans had few problems with them. The frontal armor of PzIII withstood ALL types of their guns in the 41st. Only the latest BT-7s against the Czech 38 were on equal terms, but again the equipment gave the Germans an edge. Another important factor was the logistics equipment and repair of tank units, which the Germans had 2 heads higher. More than half of the tank losses in 41 were not combat.
      2. +1
        28 December 2014 21: 24
        Read the history of the Second World War.


        Yes, check it out. What is the advantage there ?!
    4. 0
      28 December 2014 05: 35
      I agree. The crisis of civilization has reached the OKB. The flying tank will be new. Without tracks :).
      1. +1
        28 December 2014 21: 47
        Quote: Stelth1985
        The flying tank will be new. Without tracks :).

        Why
        You are mistaken, everything is with him!
    5. 0
      28 December 2014 21: 23
      In fact, he is not only armed with India. And 4 more countries.
  5. +13
    27 December 2014 07: 12
    Of course, there are numbers, but for some reason the article does not always give the numbers of the Merkava. For example: "The landing and disembarkation of the entire T-90S crew is carried out in 8-12 seconds. On the Merkava Mk4 this takes much more time." ...
    Each of us has his own idea of ​​time, so it’s not known how many seconds the author had in mind. Maybe 15, maybe 30.

    The article also contains statistics on dead crews and wrecked tanks. Of course, I understand that it’s always a pleasure to show off numbers, but there’s no video footage of the battle proving that the tanks got hit from the RPG and other anti-tank vehicles in the forehead or front hemisphere. , in general, they shot at the roof? From the 2nd floor. Here it will break through at any tank.

    The article also mentions the booked volume of tanks. But the "Merkava" weighs 70 tons and can afford to book the entire volume.

    Actually, the article does not tell us anything specific about the combat use of tanks.
    Nevertheless, the "Merkava" has modern and thick armor. Which raises doubts about what its author made a "chicken with holes" in the article, and the T-90 a terminator. If you look at the facts in the face, then the T-90 also has many disadvantages For example, weak armor, protection of the crew and ammo.

    In any case, we can only find out the truth if the war starts and these two tanks meet on the battlefield.
    1. +3
      27 December 2014 08: 11
      Quote: Vladimir.
      But "Merkava" weighs 70 tons and can afford to book the entire volume.

      some kind of strange vision of the term. weight and pre-storage volume are quite strictly related indicators.
    2. +11
      27 December 2014 08: 28
      Quote: Vladimir.
      In any case, we can only find out the truth if the war starts and these two tanks meet on the battlefield.
      In this case, I personally would prefer to guess for a whole century.
      1. +11
        27 December 2014 08: 32
        Quote: Nagan
        In that case, I personally would have preferred to guess for a whole century

        Maybe they will come to the biathlon and introduce the discipline of the oncoming battle using shells with paint.
        1. +4
          27 December 2014 09: 13
          Quote: Kars
          Maybe they will come to the biathlon and introduce the discipline of the oncoming battle using shells with paint.
          And how does a can of paint, even shot from a tank gun, test the resistance of armor? Such a hit, even the old T-26 is likely to withstand, and the T-34 and even more so. And with real sub-calibers, to put in a tank with a live crew is for peaceful competitions, you see, a little through measure. And a can of paint, if it passes the target and on the spectator platform, it can cause troubles. So you need to think hard how to organize it so that there are no corpses.
          1. +6
            27 December 2014 09: 23
            Quote: Nagan
            And how does a can of paint, even shot from a tank gun, test the resistance of armor?

            And this, by the way, is not so important anymore. More important is the fact of the hit.
            Quote: Nagan
            Yes, and a can of paint, if it passes the target and on the spectator platform, it can cause troubles

            This is decided by the absence of spectators. All the same, there is nothing special to see live.
        2. +8
          27 December 2014 09: 27
          Quote: Kars
          Maybe they’ll come to biathlon

          In biathlon, they have little chances, unless they get into position and hit the target on the move (very aptly), and so it is necessary to introduce the discipline "tank sumo"
          It seems to me to compare "positional" and universal tanks is not entirely correct. This "Iron Kaput" showed itself only in Israel and with a very qualified crew.
          1. MACCABI TLV
            0
            27 December 2014 11: 59
            Quote: mark1
            In biathlon, they have little chances, unless they get into position and hit the target on the move (very aptly), and so it is necessary to introduce the discipline "tank sumo"
            It seems to me to compare "positional" and universal tanks is not entirely correct. This "Iron Kaput" showed itself only in Israel and with a very qualified crew.

            in 73, they got so sick that everyone else still has little chance against them.
            1. +3
              27 December 2014 12: 27
              Quote: MACCABI TLV
              in 73, they got so sick that everyone else still has little chance against them.

              So after all, the "biathletes" were of different qualifications, and the "biathlon" itself with elements of "aviadarts" (even on the contrary ...)
              1. 0
                27 December 2014 12: 38
                Quote: mark1
                So after all, the "biathletes" were of different qualifications, and the "biathlon" itself with elements of "aviadarts" (even on the contrary ...)

                Well, the level of qualification and tactical use is somehow on the conscience of the training side and advisers.
                1. 0
                  27 December 2014 13: 29
                  Quote: atalef

                  Well, the level of qualification and tactical use is somehow on the conscience of the training side and advisers.

                  I completely agree with you (but besides, just some people decided that they had already comprehended everything and did not need advisors), although we did not expect the "Maiveriks" (more precisely, such an effect) Glory to the falcons of Zion!
                  1. +2
                    27 December 2014 14: 31
                    And minus for what? Zion is not a curse, but such a mountain (you can say the symbol of Israel), so I praised you.
              2. MACCABI TLV
                +1
                27 December 2014 15: 17
                Quote: mark1
                So after all "biathletes" were of different qualifications,

                Of course, but also in very different numbers, and the biathlon was in different directions and climatic zones.
                The skills of experience have since been diligently passed on to new generations.
                Aviation at the beginning was on an equal footing.
                1. +3
                  27 December 2014 15: 47
                  Quote: MACCABI TLV
                  Aviation at the beginning was on an equal footing.

                  So after all, and began to beat the "biathletes" towards the end, then for the first time a high-precision guided weapon loudly announced itself. "Mayveriki" strongly strained the Soviet leadership because it turned out that tank armies can be stopped without counter nuclear strikes. Well, the skill of the Israeli tank crews is what it is, but it was not decisive.
                  1. MACCABI TLV
                    +2
                    27 December 2014 16: 03
                    Quote: mark1
                    So after all, and began to beat the "biathletes" towards the end, then for the first time a high-precision guided weapon loudly declared itself.


                    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%BE%D0%B9%D0%BD%D0%B0_%D0%A1%D1%83%D0%B4%
                    D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE_%D0%B4%D0%BD%D1%8F
                    1. +3
                      27 December 2014 17: 29
                      For MACCABI TLV. Wikipedia is an authoritative thing, of course, it's hard to argue with her, but I'm based on the stories of my father, by the nature of his work, he was lectured and shown films (for example, how a tank column was burned in one run) from there and the main problem was seen in the Mayverik UR ". Well, about how one tanker kept 1300 enemy tanks - the further from those events, the more varied the legends. Maybe it was, maybe not quite ... The fact that Israel won.
                      1. MACCABI TLV
                        0
                        28 December 2014 18: 11
                        Mayverick in 72 just developed ...
        3. +6
          27 December 2014 11: 56
          Quote: Kars
          Maybe they will come to the biathlon and introduce the discipline of the oncoming battle using shells with paint.

          If it were. But will they? As far as we know, we invited both Americans and Germans in our tanks - no one came. Afraid of chtoli? If they are sure their tanks are better, come and prove it. But for some reason they are not in a hurry. And even the team from Kuwait (if I am not mistaken) was forbidden to come on abrams. Again it is not clear - why?
          1. +2
            27 December 2014 12: 16
            Quote: Dimka off
            Again it is not clear - why?

            What seriously is not clear why?
            1. +1
              27 December 2014 12: 18
              Quote: atalef
              What seriously is not clear why?

              Western and Israeli super tankers do not want to mess with illiterate Russian barbarians?
              1. 0
                27 December 2014 12: 24
                Quote: Dimka off
                Quote: atalef
                What seriously is not clear why?

                Western and Israeli super tankers do not want to mess with illiterate Russian barbarians?

                Strange, but somehow I connected it with the sanctions.
                1. +3
                  27 December 2014 12: 28
                  So, like invitations were not only this year but also in the previous one. Or I'm wrong? The doors were open to all comers.
                  1. 0
                    27 December 2014 12: 40
                    Quote: Dimka off
                    So, like invitations were not only this year but also in the previous one. Or I'm wrong? The doors were open to all comers.

                    Well, they were invited only this year (more precisely for 2015) - the Bundes. Americans, Canada and Israel (as far as I know) - agreed to come.
                    Our Crimea --- prevented.
                    1. +2
                      27 December 2014 12: 45
                      Honestly - we would like to compete - sanctions did not hinder.
                      1. +1
                        27 December 2014 12: 54
                        Quote: Dimka off
                        Honestly - we would like to compete - sanctions did not hinder.

                        Well, yes, so in a private initiative. they hijacked and came to compete.
                      2. +3
                        27 December 2014 13: 36
                        Quote: atalef
                        Well, yes, so in a private initiative. hijacked and came to compete

                        And that Israel supports the sanctions against Russia, and what does this mean?

                        and this is my first Merkava 2. was done when I only heard about the Internet.
                      3. +1
                        27 December 2014 14: 06
                        Quote: Kars
                        And that Israel supports the sanctions against Russia, and what does this mean?

                        And why the heck do we run into? Only out of love for art?
                        We observe.
                      4. +2
                        27 December 2014 14: 16
                        Quote: atalef
                        And why the heck do we run into? Only out of love for art?

                        Well, I don’t know - Australia or Canada are very worried.
                        Obama says that the entire enlightened democratic world in one impulse stood up to support Ukraine with sanctions.
                      5. +3
                        27 December 2014 14: 22
                        Quote: Kars
                        Obama says that the entire enlightened democratic world in one impulse stood up to support Ukraine with sanctions.

                        So they both in verbiage (Obama and Putin) compete
                        We have to do with it, let them measure ourselves with pussy. we stand aside - we will be healthier.
                      6. +5
                        27 December 2014 14: 40
                        Our Svidomo comrades will not like it. Something I look about Israel, we have not had news for a long time. We quickly, if not against Russia, mean .. bad ..
                      7. +2
                        28 December 2014 02: 20
                        Quote: Kars
                        Our Svidomo comrades will not like it.

                        These are their sexual difficulties.
                      8. +1
                        29 December 2014 15: 13
                        the layout is really good, but in the picture the tank resembles a Centurion, not a merkava.
                      9. +1
                        29 December 2014 18: 16
                        Quote: silver_roman
                        here in the picture the tank resembles Centurion

                        the centurion in the picture is a shot of doomsday war.
                2. 0
                  27 December 2014 14: 17
                  What is this word - "sanctions"? And yes, can you tell me the average lifetime of a tank on a field with an adequately armed enemy? They decided to fight with tanks alone, sick?
    3. -2
      28 December 2014 05: 37
      Do not meet. Merkava just won’t get there))))).
    4. 0
      28 December 2014 14: 31
      And where
      In any case, we can only find out the truth if the war starts and these two tanks meet on the battlefield.
      ??
  6. -1
    27 December 2014 07: 38
    If you compare the latest modifications zapadenskih tanks - so it is with Armata!
    1. +6
      27 December 2014 08: 28
      Quote: ps-1972
      If you compare the latest modifications zapadenskih tanks - so it is with Armata!

      Does Armata already exist? belay
      Enlighten, maybe people don’t know what?
      1. -2
        27 December 2014 14: 18
        And if it suddenly appears, the faces will not crack with surprise?
        1. +4
          27 December 2014 14: 29
          Quote: LvKiller
          And if it suddenly appears, the faces will not crack with surprise?

          Suddenly, only hemorrhoids can appear.
  7. +4
    27 December 2014 07: 41
    The article is clearly "skewed", according to some parameters, our tanks are better than foreign ones, but nevertheless the T-90 is still far from ideal, we need to work on it, since the Armata will not solve all the problems in an instant, and it is hot at the borders, if Westerners and decide to commit such a suicide as a war with us, then they will definitely not be met by "Armata", but by "90s" and "72s"
  8. Cat
    +13
    27 December 2014 07: 54
    My opinion is that both vehicles were made not only for different tasks (Merkava - for organizing defense and counteracting infantry, T-90 - for offensive maneuverable combat with other tanks) but also for various theaters of military operations, the level of crew training, maintenance conditions, and even stability requirements when the enemy uses nuclear weapons. Perhaps these are the two most incomparable combat vehicles. Yes
  9. +2
    27 December 2014 08: 06
    Do not forget that they hit not by ratings, but by face.
  10. +1
    27 December 2014 08: 07
    Where is the Professor?
    1. +11
      27 December 2014 08: 44
      The professor refuses to participate in this fraud. The author began to wonder:
      Fighting not rated
      ..............
      The rest either did not participate in battles (German Leopard 2A6, Japanese “Type 90”, Chinese “Type 99”, South Korean K1A1 and K2), or conceptually created in 70 – 80 of the last century. In addition, the price characteristics of the tanks M1А2, "Leclerc" and "Leopard" just going wild and can not afford the absolute majority of buyers of military equipment.


      And so he compares the T-90 that never fought ... wassat
      I am generally silent about obvious illiteracy in materiel, but it is in almost every line. As the fellow countryman said: "Boring." hi
      1. 0
        27 December 2014 11: 53
        And how are things going on with your new MBT, or has it gone further than words? laughing
        1. +3
          28 December 2014 02: 59
          Quote: bmv04636
          And how are things going on with your new MBT, or has it gone further than words?


          No way. MBT will no longer be ... at all ... never.
          MK-4 is a machine closing the production line, like the last model of armored trains in its time.

          When the time comes to send the Mk-4 "to rest", it will be replaced by electric-powered robots, weighing no more than 15-20 tons, with railguns, laser ZK, active optical camouflage and full-fledged AI. wink
          1. 0
            28 December 2014 13: 16
            oh dreamers and will he be horny like a trolley bus laughing
            1. -1
              30 December 2014 02: 00
              Quote: bmv04636
              oh dreamers and will he be horny like a trolley bus laughing

              The fact that some have dreams - others have prototypes. tongue
      2. +9
        27 December 2014 12: 38
        What, Merkava-4 fought tightly somewhere? Oh yes, the Hamas tank divisions were smashing ...
        1. -7
          27 December 2014 12: 44
          Quote: Spade
          What, Merkava-4 fought tightly somewhere? Oh yes, the Hamas tank divisions were smashing ...

          And where did the t-90 fight?
          Let’s go back a bit. T-72 and t-80, where did they fight?
          1. +4
            27 December 2014 13: 30
            And where did the Merkava fight? And then I see that the professor's thesis "did not fight, it means nonsense" refers exclusively to Russian technology.
            1. 0
              27 December 2014 14: 07
              Quote: Spade
              And where did the Merkava fight? And then I see that the professor's thesis "did not fight, it means nonsense" refers exclusively to Russian technology.

              And in your opinion it's only against the tanks?
              1. 0
                27 December 2014 14: 27
                This is for its intended purpose. And not as a mobile bunker and self-propelled guns of direct infantry support.
                1. -1
                  27 December 2014 14: 39
                  Quote: Spade
                  This is for its intended purpose.

                  Well then (if against the tanks). the performance of the T-72 is somehow not an ice at all, since their abrashas were cut to zero
                  I hope you have no objection to this fact?
                  Quote: Spade
                  And not as a mobile bunker and self-propelled guns of direct infantry support.

                  And what did tanks in Chechen do?
                  1. +2
                    27 December 2014 15: 29
                    Quote: atalef
                    Well then (if against the tanks). the performance of the T-72 is somehow not an ice at all, since their abrashas were cut to zero

                    Yah? Or maybe the aircraft and the Tou were quietly and slowly shooting the standing T-72s from a safe range?
                    1. +4
                      27 December 2014 20: 12
                      In Syria, T 72 tanks from ATGMs of the Tou, HJ 8, Competitions, Bassoons and Cornets are shot in the light, today they lost three more tanks.
                  2. -1
                    27 December 2014 18: 00
                    And they started building the channel like this.
                  3. picca2
                    0
                    29 December 2014 18: 32
                    Quote: atalef
                    Quote: Spade
                    This is for its intended purpose.
                    Well then (if against the tanks). the performance of the T-72 is somehow not an ice at all, since their abrashas were cut to zero
                    I hope you have no objection to this fact?


                    What does the "Abrams" have to do with it (which by the way?) request

                    Quote: atalef
                    Quote: Spade
                    And not as a mobile bunker and self-propelled guns of direct infantry support.
                    And what did tanks in Chechen do?


                    And the Israeli "super-duper" Merkava against Arab militants seems to be a good thing ...
                    We don’t touch aviation ...
          2. +4
            27 December 2014 15: 41
            T-72 is actively fighting in Syria, and judging by the video, in what condition they are there, the car is very tenacious.
          3. picca2
            0
            29 December 2014 18: 20
            So, like Israel shouted about 50 destroyed t-72s in the 1982 Lebanon war. laughing
            But the data of the tank "Merkava" MK. 1 and T-72 combat collisions can be searched.
        2. +3
          28 December 2014 01: 36
          Quote: Spade
          What, Merkava-4 fought tightly somewhere? Oh yes, the Hamas tank divisions were smashing ...

          Shovels. What do you think fought? Will there be a Second World War? Tank wedge to tank wedge?
          1. 0
            28 December 2014 13: 17
            Well, probably so tank to tank comparable at least by the year of manufacture.
          2. picca2
            0
            29 December 2014 18: 24
            Pimpled. And in your understanding, is there understanding? What article did you read about?
            1. 0
              30 December 2014 05: 28
              Quote: picca2
              Pimpled. And in your understanding, is there understanding? What article did you read about?

              An article about the stupidity and ignorance of the author. And believe me, if he would have extolled Merkava in such a way as he writes about the T-90, I would say the same thing. I do not like when they write garbage
              1. picca2
                0
                30 December 2014 09: 06
                Yes, the article is from the MIC site, I originally saw it there ... smile
                Everyone is trying to exalt their product, and no one likes when you shit created by you. But ...
                1) Merkava IV is still 70 tons and a tall hull.
                2) T-90 48 tons and the modernization of the T-72 with a low hull and turret.
                In recent years, firing is mainly carried out in the tank body.
                At the same time, Merkava shoots slightly away from the central projection, turning the body.
      3. +16
        27 December 2014 13: 34
        Oh Professor ... again 25? T-90, let it be known, it proved itself very well back in Chechnya in 1995, to which I was a witness, cars scattered on 276 MSP and 324 MSP, out of eight machines that were 4 for a month constantly in the first echelon and were mainly used in the evening and at night, none of the cars was lost, one of the cars had a break-through, but it went to the screen under its own power, the second car cut off the engine wall from a cumulative grenade, the car lost up to 80% of power, but all the same, she was able to suppress the enemy’s point with fire and move away, was elementary there were no complaints from the crews about running in and revealing deficiencies in the battle conditions; there were no complaints from the crews; one side arrived with three grenades stuck in the armor. Naturally, a whole fleet of services was launched from UVZ, but this does not detract from the merits of the tank, so the Professor again with a finger to the sky.
        1. 0
          27 December 2014 21: 53
          Moreover, they were Indian T-90С with weakened armor
          1. +1
            27 December 2014 23: 23
            Quote: uwzek
            Moreover, they were Indian T-90С with weakened armor

            What else is the weakening of armor in the Indian T-90.S. They were better than the linear Russian T-90 they went once with the new 1000 engine. And they did not have weakened zones at the site of the curtains.
      4. +3
        27 December 2014 14: 21
        Something tells me that you came here to scribble not because the carrot is so good, but simply because you still have it. True, if you get a worthy opponent, then it will quickly end for you. You don’t see the difference, right?
        1. +4
          27 December 2014 14: 44
          Quote: LvKiller
          True, if you get a worthy opponent, then it will quickly end for you. You don’t see the difference, right?

          Well, right, we have been waiting for this worthy opponent for 60 years.
          All our opponents were somehow not worthy.
          Here's how to invest billions in them. advisers and weapons - then they are worthy (I'm talking about the USSR). but how to get p .... th from us - so not worthy
          Why do you keep in touch with some poor people all the time?
          Quote: LvKiller
          You don’t see the difference, right?

          I see. the difference.
          The last time the Russian army fought a worthy adversary?
          Well, like this . that would at least surpass it numerically (2-3 times?), and that armaments (2-4 times?)
          Can you give an example?
          1. +3
            27 December 2014 17: 52
            2008 fought with a superior enemy) proud Georgians fled)
          2. picca2
            -1
            29 December 2014 18: 41
            Mr. atalef, you better tell us who is sponsoring your army since what year and for what amount? So about billions, this is to Obama. He will say how much he invested, or maybe investment ...
      5. The comment was deleted.
  11. +11
    27 December 2014 08: 09
    Not everyone knows that the Merkava Mk4 is equipped with a spring suspension. When driving on rough terrain, it limits the speed of the car and the accuracy of shooting on the move, since the body vibrations seriously affect the stabilization error when you hover your weapon. On the armored vehicles of the main armies of the world, this type of suspension is almost never used.

    The suspension was chosen obsolyutno consciously - in order to minimize the mine threat, and accelerated repair. And the disadvantages are contrived. In Israel, there is experience in operating probably all types of tank suspensions.
    1. +10
      27 December 2014 08: 31
      On the same spring-link suspension, the T-34 reached Berlin. At the same time, they left behind burnt "Tigers" and "Panthers" on a torsion bar suspension.
      1. +4
        27 December 2014 13: 11
        Quote: Nagan
        On the same spring-link suspension, the T-34 reached Berlin.

        Common but incorrect opinion. By the end of 1944, the T-34s were already "in the wings", and the main tasks were solved by the "big uncles" on the IS-2. With torsion bar suspension. Look at the statistics of the participants in the last major tank battle of the Second World War - battles at Lake Balaton.
        177 T-34, 234 Shermans and 292 IS-2
  12. Dart_Veyder
    +10
    27 December 2014 08: 13
    A strange article ... But I apologize, but the article seems to be a dispute between schoolchildren with missing replicas for the merkava. In my opinion, the presence of KAZ already makes Merkava an excellent tank, and the best or not the best is depending on how you compare. It’s like that Sherman or T55 is better, like a rhetorical question, but the Israelis won. I mean, tankers play a decisive role.
    1. +2
      27 December 2014 14: 23
      The decisive role is played not by the tank, but by the tanker, which is orders of magnitude larger. Well, not a tenant tank on the field in a real mess ....
  13. +2
    27 December 2014 08: 38
    Who can say how reliable the automatic loader is and how quickly it is possible to charge the gun manually in case of failure?
    1. -6
      27 December 2014 08: 40
      Quote: Bayonet
      Who can say how reliable the automatic loader is and how quickly it is possible to charge the gun in case of failure?

      as far as I know, in case of failure of the AZ - it is not possible to charge manually, and not to anyone (crew of 3 people)
      (maybe I’m wrong?), what will Kars say about this?
    2. +10
      27 December 2014 08: 41
      I won’t say how reliable I’ll --- but I won’t catch the infantryman and charge them for sure. And yet, how many years AZ / MZ has been used means reliable, how they will be serviced, repaired. And manually charge the rate of fire of the 1 / 2 shot per minute with distraction from The main occupation of the commander or gunner.
      1. +2
        27 December 2014 11: 41
        During a short but stormy affair with an invincible and legendary one, the commander constantly scared me with a subject called a rammer such a wooden stick with a rubber knob that sends a shell when the AZ is not fully actuated.
      2. +1
        27 December 2014 14: 24
        Quote: Kars
        .A to manually charge the rate of fire of 1/2 shot per minute with distraction from the main occupation of the commander or gunner.

        What was I interested in, if the tank does a good job (without incapacitation) and the autoloader fails, what will be its effectiveness in battle? Maybe that's why our "partners" don't install the automatic loader? What do the people think?
        1. +2
          27 December 2014 14: 42
          Quote: Bayonet
          and the automatic loader will fail, what will be its effectiveness in battle?

          Efficiency, of course, will drop, but if you can beat the loader well with a loader, it’s a shock. It’s such a thing. And the French and South Koreans put the machine guns in perspective.
          1. 0
            27 December 2014 15: 07
            Thanks for the information! hi
            1. +2
              27 December 2014 15: 20
              Come again, if that.
              so for AZ Eclair's interest
    3. +7
      27 December 2014 15: 04
      Quote: Bayonet
      Who can tell how reliable the automatic loader is

      So he asked the tankers a normal question about the reliability of the automatic loader, Kars answered, atalef - thanks, and some kind of foolish people started to put cons ... Well, at least occasionally, please include the brain, what did you not like the question? Maybe he somehow affected your digestive tract? Well, I DO NOT UNDERSTAND such!
      1. 0
        27 December 2014 22: 09
        And you ask a specific question. What failure AZ (MOH) do you mean? If the elements of the machine did not jam in exotic positions, it is quite possible to shoot from a tank gun. Of course, in the presence of ammunition outside the mechanized installation.
        1. 0
          28 December 2014 08: 19
          Quote: uwzek
          And you ask a specific question.

          Much more specific - AZ refused, does not work. How the gun will be charged, what will be the rate of fire compared to a tank without an AZ - with manual loading.
  14. +9
    27 December 2014 08: 41
    Comparing the Merkava with the T-90 is somehow not logical. The Merkava is not a universal machine, but specially "sharpened" for the conditions of warfare by the Israeli army.
    1. +3
      27 December 2014 08: 57
      Quote: La-5
      Comparing the Merkava with the T-90 is somehow not logical. The Merkava is not a universal machine, but specially "sharpened" for the conditions of warfare by the Israeli army.

      Well, about sharpening - the question is,
      Further, in general, this article reminds me of articles about having no analogues in the world with -300 (which do not have any combat use to date)
      So, for some reason, the author is beautifully silent that T had repeated military use (including against the IDF -
      we can remember both the Doomsday War with the massive use of both Egypt and Syria t-55 (the most modern tank of the USSR at that time), and war in the bay (with the use of Saddam - t 72)
      In all cases (real combat use) (T) - he lost outright.
      You can certainly argue that these were Arab monkeys who did not know how to fight, and their generals gave birth to everything - I’m somehow far from such a statement, as in the Iran and Iraq War, both tank groups fought quite worthy, but they met with the Abrams and in general with a normally built organization of the offensive using all means, they remained only burnt corps in the desert.
      the author mentions 52 wrecked tanks (Merkav) - and tanks are generally designed to break through and take on fire, including anti-tank weapons; the question is, how many tankers died?
      what irretrievable losses?
      Well, of course, the simplest question is - if you put the T - 90 and Merkava (4) and fire around from the same Cornet or any other anti-tank weapon - who is more likely to remain intact and save the crew? And when dozens of such shelling?
      Or do you think tanks fight only in the field against other tanks?
      It seems to me that, analyzing all the wars of the last 30 years, it is in the built-up space saturated with anti-tank weapons that the main use of tanks is / and not in boosting the Bugs with thermonuclear explosions in the atmosphere (as one of the experts states here)
      1. +1
        27 December 2014 12: 31
        Sharpness lies in the fact that Merkava is specially designed for warfare in the desert and hot climates, as well as to maximize the preservation of the crew to the detriment of the survivability of the machine. If the Russian t-90 can be operated from the polar latitudes to the southern deserts, then Merkava is not designed for operation in the northern regions. You can’t just move tanks, you also need to compare the area where battles are supposed to be and how cars will behave in this case.
        1. +7
          28 December 2014 03: 14
          Quote: La-5
          ... then Merkava is not designed for operation in the northern regions ...


          This mantra is copied from article to article.
          Attention is the question - where and by whom is it proven?



      2. +2
        28 December 2014 06: 02
        First, tovarisch, "met with the Abrashki" ... who met ???? T-55, T-62 probably. Do not confuse you with a finger. Tanks of different generations. Abrashki esseseno outnumbered the old Soviet cars. But the T-72s from Saddam's three guards divisions in 91 were too tough for them. Fact: in order to fill up one 72k, the mattresses were used 3 Abrashkas and a couple of BMP Bradleys in addition. This is in order to bypass 72ku and hit the stern and side. And now they are shouting about 72 thousand. It is known for certain that in the same Tavalkana, there were about 100 72k. I don't remember the exact figure. So, to break through in the battle area, the mattresses had to use massive artillery, simply because they could not knock out the defense. Also, there were frequent cases when the Iraqis were hiding under their tanks from air raids or simply did not reach the cars. And this is already a fact of improper control and incorrect moral training of troops. That is, the battles with Tavalkana showed the wrong organization of troops, their supply, readiness to immediately engage in battle and the lack of aviation and artillery preparation for the advancing enemy. This is the same as a heavyweight fighter against a lightweight fighter. Sorry, but there is a difference. Although the tank crews and infantry fought quite well and professionally in some cases. But what are the individual cases when the whole front collapsed and you are surrounded? Did you fight 3-4 people at once? If not, then you will not be able to understand that it is not even strength that decides, but a simple numerical superiority. You cannot answer everyone. You hit one, and 2-3 hits you from behind and flanks. Here is the answer. On the strategic issue, they lacked organization, intelligence, supplies and recreation. That's the whole answer. And 72ka showed itself perfectly. And do not slander her.
        1. 0
          29 December 2014 11: 11
          In addition, in Iraq, the T-72s were mostly Polish, and their booking was different (instead of pressed rods, the Poles used sand). Correct if wrong. This was discussed on this site.
  15. +8
    27 December 2014 08: 58
    Tanks are not afraid of mud wink
    1. ICT
      +1
      27 December 2014 09: 17
      small battle including merkava
      1. +1
        27 December 2014 09: 24
        Quote: TIT
        small battle including merkava

        And how did this little fight end?
        Somewhere I still have pictures of scumbags in scuba suits.
        1. ICT
          +3
          27 December 2014 09: 32
          Quote: atalef
          Somewhere I have left pictures


          the question is, how much equipment was involved, and got to the merkava and type
          like in the game settled
          1. -6
            27 December 2014 09: 58
            Quote: TIT
            the question is, how much equipment was involved, and got to the merkava and type
            like in the game settled

            Settled. I saw pieces of fat left over from these divers, but how many equipment did they attract? What does it matter ?
            There is only one result - the terrorists are destroyed, we have no losses.
      2. ICT
        +12
        27 December 2014 09: 25
        but the campaign and the loss
        1. +5
          27 December 2014 09: 34
          I watch it all landmines, and not frail sizes.
        2. +2
          27 December 2014 15: 22
          We are waiting for comments from Israeli experts. Still waiting. And again we are waiting.
  16. +6
    27 December 2014 09: 33
    Quote: atalef
    maybe in the War of Iran and Iraq - both tank groups fought quite worthy, but when they met with the Abrams and, in general, with a normally organized offensive organization using all means, they remained only burnt corps in the desert.

    Well, you will expand in the post what a "normally built organization" according to the US version. Maybe then it turns out that against the T-72 and "Bradley" is an excellent fight.
    Quote: atalef
    It seems to me that, analyzing all the wars of the last 30 years, it is in the built-up space saturated with anti-tank weapons that the main use of tanks is / and not in boosting the Bugs with thermonuclear explosions in the atmosphere (as one of the experts states here)

    And why in the built-up area to drive tanks? Then it’s better to produce BMPTs weighing so much under 70t with a mortar / mortar of 200 ... 300mm and a bunch of other quick-fire weapons, instead of a 120mm gun with high ballistic. Tank precisely for the offensive incl. and river crossing is needed, otherwise the whole meaning of this weapon is lost.
  17. +13
    27 December 2014 10: 10
    How will this car behave in the tropical jungle, on soft and marshy soils, in the absence of an extensive road network with hard surface, long distances, an abundance of rivers, marshes and rice plantations? There are no answers to these questions, since the tests of the “Merkava Mk4” in such climatic zones were not conducted, there is no experience of using the Israeli tank in the difficult physiographic conditions of the Southeast Asian region.
    Comparing the "Merkava" with the T-90S, perhaps, how to argue - what is the best way to move - the Chukchi on deer or Bedouins on camels ... "Merkava" was created for a specific geographic region, according to the capabilities of a small country and, most importantly, for the military tasks of the IDF. In this regard, "Merkava", one must think, is an ideal tank for Israel, and, undoubtedly, an outstanding one in the history of world tank building. Everything else, slyness, since even tanks of the same type against each other will be better or worse, depending on who, where, and how they use them, how much stronger or weaker the interaction with other types of troops. Well, and, most importantly, ideally a T-90 tank for Russia, a "Merkava" tank for Israel (as they say, don't mix it up, "Kutuzov"! ...).
    1. +2
      27 December 2014 16: 20
      Quote: Per se.
      there is no experience in using an Israeli tank in the difficult physical and geographical conditions of the SEA region.

      It seems that the tired IDF soldiers were not going to wash dusty shoes in the waters of the Indian Ocean ... Someone else dreamed about it, remember? smile
    2. +1
      27 December 2014 17: 04
      Quote: Per se.
      How will this car behave in the tropical jungle, on soft and marshy soils, in the absence of an extensive road network with hard surface, long distances, an abundance of rivers, marshes and rice plantations? There are no answers to these questions, since the tests of the “Merkava Mk4” in such climatic zones were not conducted, there is no experience of using the Israeli tank in the difficult physiographic conditions of the Southeast Asian region.
      Comparing the "Merkava" with the T-90S, perhaps, how to argue - what is the best way to move - the Chukchi on deer or Bedouins on camels ... "Merkava" was created for a specific geographic region, according to the capabilities of a small country and, most importantly, for the military tasks of the IDF. In this regard, "Merkava", one must think, is an ideal tank for Israel, and, undoubtedly, an outstanding one in the history of world tank building. Everything else, slyness, since even tanks of the same type against each other will be better or worse, depending on who, where, and how they use them, how much stronger or weaker the interaction with other types of troops. Well, and, most importantly, ideally a T-90 tank for Russia, a "Merkava" tank for Israel (as they say, don't mix it up, "Kutuzov"! ...).

      One of the most sensible judgments. Everyone is good in its place. What merkava that T-90. When the armata appears, then we’ll see. And my opinion is that it is rather necessary to compare the lecler and leopard with the armature and T-90, they are for one DB theater.
      1. 0
        27 December 2014 17: 51
        Quote: UNCLE
        . And my opinion is that we should rather compare lecler and leopard with armature

        Let’s start now, where is she?
    3. wanderer_032
      +1
      28 December 2014 10: 14
      Quote: Per se.
      "Merkava" was created for a specific geographic region, according to the capabilities of a small country and, most importantly, for the military tasks of the IDF.


      The article, if you read it carefully, mentions such a fact as the entry of the manufacturer of the MBT "Merkava-4" to the export market, and this is a completely different topic.

      And the main idea of ​​the article is to compare the suitability of using the T-90S and Merkava-4 tanks for the armed forces of other countries.
      "Merkava-4" is clearly inferior in this to the Ural vehicles, because the T-72 and T-90 tanks have passed the most severe operational tests in various climatic zones and have thus shown that they are really suitable for military operations from the Arctic to tropical latitudes.
      In general, it turns out that the Ural tanks can work everywhere, and not just in Russia.

      In addition, in the documentary "Tanks. Ural Character" one of the UVZ representatives mentioned the fact that tanks were tested at the Semipalatinsk nuclear test site under conditions of an imitation of a nuclear explosion. After the explosive detonation of the imitation charge was carried out, one of the two tanks presented in these tests was able to reach the park on its own.



      About similar tests of similar foreign-made cars have not been heard.
      1. 0
        28 December 2014 21: 27
        Quote: wanderer_032
        The article, if you read it carefully, mentions such a fact as the entry of the manufacturer of the MBT "Merkava-4" to the export market, and this is a completely different topic.
        Yes, I read it, you have to understand, and there are "effective managers" who are not averse to making some money. Naturally, the T-90 is more versatile in the export market, since Russia (the tank for her) has a more diverse climate and relief than Israel, however, we must not forget that the Merkava and the T-90 are essentially machines different weight categories. Previously, Merkava tanks were not offered for export, obviously, the Israelis were inspired by the new Leopard 2A7 +, the weight of which surpassed the American Abrams and Merkava, and which the Germans advertised for sale. Perhaps somewhere "Merkava" can be successfully claimed, why not, especially since the latest modifications have become better than the previous ones. Agree, if there is data on testing the T-90 / T-72 in various regions of the world, but there are no data on the "Merkava", the author does not give them, then how can you compare correctly? The Emirates bought French "Leclercs", which have buggy electronics in the heat, and problems in the sand, compared with our trouble-free BMP-3. Someone, perhaps, will buy a Merkava, compare it with the T-90, then it will be seen, but for now, the author of the article put forward his own version, we are in our comments, it will not be worse from this, and it is useful to think once again.
  18. +4
    27 December 2014 10: 22
    Stupid worthless article. Neither normal facts, nor competent analytics, one hatred. Damn, a year ago, such nonsense was not printed on VO ...
  19. +8
    27 December 2014 10: 30
    Theorize and fantasize again. Israel already once in the 1973 showed that with it at that time weaker than the T72 American tanks can be quite successfully fought. The fact that all types of tanks can burn and their crews die too, there is nothing to prove. Therefore, it would be possible to compare the T90Ts and the Merkava 4 provided that they met in a real battle, controlled tanks and battle, equally trained tankers and their commanders and all other conditions would be equal. But who, where and when did he see such fights?
    And lastly, we must not forget that the Merkavas are equipped with elements of Battlefield Management Systems, which allows the crew of each tank to receive information about the combat situation on the battlefield both from their observation devices and from other tanks, as well as from all other reconnaissance and target designation devices, including drones. AWACS, etc. And such awareness is worth a lot considering that the field of view in the tank is still limited. I do not mention other "little things" such as active protection systems, etc. And naturally, Israel creates weapons systems primarily for its own needs and its theater of operations, not forgetting to put air conditioning systems in iron boxes. Without them, you can't aim at 50 degrees for a long time. Yes, and aiming at the enemy when sweat floods his eyes is not an overwhelming greyhound. And the fact that they are trying to sell their tanks and other systems to those who are ready to buy these systems from them, so who are not trying now. No one has a superfluous extra penny.
    About dependence on allies. Yes, there is such a dependence since the whole West collects its weapons systems of their components from different countries, which allows it to choose the best of the available and at a reasonable price and also to make these systems not in 20 30 years, but on time. At the same time, the necessary reserve of spare parts and accessories is created, which allows maintaining the life of the systems for the necessary time, sometimes during the war it is sometimes calculated not even for days but for hours. What am I doing, and the fact that you don’t need to consider someone dumber than yourself, especially the Israelis who have been fighting without interruption for many decades and whose relations with the Allies have never been cloudless.
  20. +12
    27 December 2014 10: 31
    Quote: Fedor Bolts
    We have stagnation with tanks, and this must be admitted.

    Stagnation? For a long time there is a T90SM, in which almost nothing remains of the 72-ki. Yes, even from the T90S there is little left, another car in practice. Plus there is already Armata, which in general is a tank of a new, fifth, generation. The fact that we did not massively rivet the T90CM is not necessary yet, too expensive. And all sorts of Chukhons in the Caucasus / Ukraine can be scammed on t72. We don’t have such a pile of dough so that for swarthy people in funny round hats they can make multimillion-dollar tomahawks.
  21. +1
    27 December 2014 10: 32
    If we fight with nuclear fission, then no tanks, including the "legendary and elusive Armata tank", if "ordinary war", then 3 T-90s are better than 1 Merkava-price question ... (amateur opinion).
    1. MACCABI TLV
      -4
      27 December 2014 12: 08
      Quote: Lone gunman
      , then it is better to 3 pcs. T-90 than 1 pc. Merkava is the price of the question ... (amateur opinion).

      or 9 funerals versus 4?
      1. +1
        27 December 2014 13: 45
        ))) then it’s better to crack the split core, the advantage will be ours ...
        1. MACCABI TLV
          +1
          27 December 2014 15: 05
          Quote: Lone gunman
          ))) then it’s better to crack the split core, the advantage will be ours ..

          actually for cockroaches ...
          1. +2
            27 December 2014 15: 32
            gee-gee-gee))) ... but, Russian cockroaches?! ...)))
            1. MACCABI TLV
              +3
              27 December 2014 15: 45
              you haven’t seen Israeli .... I’m not joking, not only are huge, but they also fly
        2. +2
          27 December 2014 17: 53
          Quote: Lone gunman
          then it’s better to bang the split core, the advantage will be ours ...

          How many minutes ?
  22. LMaksim
    0
    27 December 2014 10: 37
    Well, the T-90S side armor will not always save from an armor-piercing projectile, due to the fact that it is thinner than a frontal one and can be counted on means of jamming, dynamic protection or rebound. The smoothness of the course is greatly influenced by the course of the rollers, put a torsion bar with a low speed of the rollers and it will crack your soul out of you. And one more thing, the torsion bar suspension is used in conjunction with hydraulic shock absorbers (for example, on the T-90C on 1,2 and 6 rollers).
  23. +5
    27 December 2014 11: 01
    Obviously, on the Israeli side of the war, in the Israeli Army Merkava is a VERY effective tank for solving tactical problems. The T 90 tank is quite versatile, as our country and the post-Soviet space have a very different climate. T 90 was created for deep breakthroughs as part of battle groups in large territories. And Merkava is fighting on a land plot the size of the Moscow region. Which is better: Ferrari or UAZ Patriot? Muscovites will choose the first, the villagers the second.
  24. 0
    27 December 2014 11: 07
    Do you look like your comrades under the Israeli flag emotions began to boil, shaw hawk, climbed out?
    1. +4
      27 December 2014 15: 41
      Quote: Myth
      Do you look like your comrades under the Israeli flag emotions began to boil, shaw hawk, climbed out?

      Sleep well ...
  25. +7
    27 December 2014 11: 24
    Mal, yes delete! The T-90 has absorbed all the best from the T-72, a real fighter, and the T-72 is fighting with might and main (and pretty good). wink
  26. +1
    27 December 2014 11: 42
    all. the seeds are over .... went for a new package .... hi
  27. itr
    +2
    27 December 2014 11: 45
    How can tanks be compared? If each other is 20 tons lighter? In Russia, in general, heavy tanks do not have one medium. The last heavy one was like
    So who is cooler I don’t see the point obviously Merkava armor is cooler
  28. 0
    27 December 2014 11: 51
    Interestingly, the 2A82 gun from the armata will be put on it?
    1. 0
      27 December 2014 12: 17
      Most likely this gun will be put on the T-90AM. Or 2A46M-5
  29. MACCABI TLV
    +2
    27 December 2014 12: 12
    again compare the iron - compare the tank training of the crews, the number of exercises, firing, service in hot spots. By the way, who can tell about the preparation of the T-90 tank crew?
    1. 0
      27 December 2014 12: 23
      But how does it differ from the T-72?
      1. MACCABI TLV
        0
        27 December 2014 15: 18
        and how does it differ from the merkava?
  30. +17
    27 December 2014 12: 23
    Merkava is so cool that she’s ready to get the enemy out of the ground
    1. +4
      27 December 2014 12: 40
      Quote: Reader
      Merkava is so cool that she’s ready to get the enemy out of the ground

      Ey with a fool and you can break the hell.
      1. 0
        27 December 2014 14: 22
        It seems that this is the motto of the Arab generals and the entire officer corps.
  31. 0
    27 December 2014 12: 25
    Why compare MBT and heavy armored personnel carrier with a tank gun ??
    1. -3
      27 December 2014 14: 17
      ABOUT! Cons gone)
      Yermolok counter on the site is on laughing
  32. +1
    27 December 2014 12: 47
    It was already something like this article, as T72 Syrians scored some version of Merkava in Lebanon. Then it seemed like it turned out that the T72 could not be there. The Israelis made a tank for themselves, which they needed, and well done. Fulfills the main requirement from Tal - to maximize the chances of saving the life of the crew, sort of like yes. But there is no absolute weapon. And if Armata will be built according to the front-engine scheme - is this not a recognition of the effectiveness of such a scheme?
    In general, it seems like the Leopard is the best tank, in terms of a set of characteristics? It is clear that the car itself, without a crew, is not all. In this sense, no one is a competitor to the Israelis; more only the Americans have experience.
    Although soon (or not) the crew will not be needed.
  33. +1
    27 December 2014 12: 48
    Compare tanks different in purpose of creation - it's cool! They even have a different purpose, not to mention the goals of the theater for which they were created. So we will compare any light tank with Abrams to the main or even unnecessary on the battlefield!
    1. MACCABI TLV
      0
      27 December 2014 15: 03
      Quote: vass
      Compare tanks different in purpose of creation - it's cool!

      But what do the creators of the Merkava say about the goals of creating their own tank?
      1. +2
        27 December 2014 15: 10
        Quote: MACCABI TLV
        But what do the creators of the Merkava say about the goals of creating their own tank?

        Why should they say something? They created the tank they could and what they wanted. The goal is the same as when creating any tank - and here the British changed their minds about selling something, they had to fuss themselves.
        1. MACCABI TLV
          +1
          27 December 2014 15: 51
          Quote: Kars
          They even have a different purpose, not to mention the goals of the theater for which they were created.

          the comrade above claims that he knows what the Israeli designers were guided by. when creating his tank, and in his opinion, the purpose of T and the Merkava are fundamentally different. Surely he studied the military doctrine of Israel, to the use of armored formations.
  34. 0
    27 December 2014 13: 52
    Only a tank biathlon will show who is cooler.
    1. +6
      27 December 2014 14: 31
      Let's immediately "decide" what these tanks are designed and created for:
      T-90, like its ancestor T-72 for the "big war".
      Merkava of all modifications in order to drive the Bedouins in the desert.
      So the article is mostly true.
      Now consider the compartment where you can place almost a platoon of infantry, etc .:

      Here is what the Jews themselves write about this "space":
      4th only if the ammunition is pulled out completely.
      and into the corridor from the strength of the 2nd, without unloading and weapons.

      Not a compartment, but a corridor from the fighting compartment to the rear hatch. 4 people in uncomfortable poses fit.
      1. +1
        27 December 2014 16: 19
        Quote: quilted jacket
        Let's decide right away ...]

        You call the Syrian army "Bedouins"? But it was she who, with 1500 T-72 and 2000 T-62, was the main enemy of the IDF in the 80s and 90s.
        1. 0
          27 December 2014 16: 43
          So you have not "encountered" the Syrian army since 1982.
          All your wars this year exclusively with partisans, and all the lost.
          1. +1
            27 December 2014 17: 29
            Quote: quilted jacket
            So you have not "encountered" the Syrian army since 1982.
            All your wars this year exclusively with partisans, and all the lost.

            Really what ? But it seems to me that Israel has completely successfully repelled all terrorist attacks over these 30 years and has become only stronger, more numerous and richer.
            1. 0
              27 December 2014 17: 54
              Aron Zaawi (2) IL Today, 17: 29 ↑
              Is what? And it seems to me that Israel has completely successfully repelled all terrorist attacks over these 30 years and has become only stronger, more numerous and richer.


              You see Aron (can I call you that?), You already "think" this is very bad (apparently the influence of age smile).
              Well, look at the war with Hezbollah, you definitely lost.
              And you have a war with Gaza every two years, as scheduled.
              And even now half the world has recognized Palestine, and soon your force-formed pseudo-state will be destroyed.
              So how did you become stronger?
              1. +6
                27 December 2014 19: 02
                Quote: quilted jacket


                You see Aron (can I call you that?), You already "think" this is very bad (apparently the influence of age smile).
                Well, look at the war with Hezbollah, you definitely lost.
                And you have a war with Gaza every two years, as scheduled.
                And even now half the world has recognized Palestine, and soon your force-formed pseudo-state will be destroyed.
                So how did you become stronger?

                All my life so called what to do now. And age is good. 45 is the heyday.
                The IDF won the 2006 war. Otherwise, there is nothing to explain 8 years of absolute calm in the North of Israel. From 2000 to 2006 hundreds of shelling and provocations, and then after the "victory", as cut off.
                The war in Gaza is the choice of the Arabs. They want to regularly chip AOI in combat conditions, the flag in their hands.
                As for the recognition or non-recognition do not tell. Over a hundred countries recognized Crimea as occupied territory and cho? But no cho. hi
                1. +2
                  27 December 2014 19: 28
                  Aron Zaawi (2) IL
                  And age is good. 45 is the heyday.


                  45 is age? smile Here is the local aviation connoisseur (vaf) 63 years old. Here I am not afraid to say this - PATRIARCH.
                  The IDF won the 2006 war. Otherwise, there is nothing to explain 8 years of absolute calm in the North of Israel. From 2000 to 2006 hundreds of shelling and provocations, and then after the "victory", as cut off.

                  There were no attacks smile look like it already gave information about them if you don’t find it, I'll post it later.
                  The war in Gaza is the choice of the Arabs. They want to regularly chip AOI in combat conditions, the flag in their hands.

                  Correctly you do not need the occupiers to relax.
                  As for the recognition or non-recognition do not tell. Over a hundred countries recognized Crimea as occupied territory and cho? But no cho.

                  Yes, you will not do anything and will give it away as dear ones only in one case, if the United States turns its back on you, without it your country is an "empty space".
                  And again, you are comparing your territorial formation whose borders are not recognized by anyone (even the United States) and Russia in their current form.
                  Funny.
                  1. 0
                    27 December 2014 21: 32
                    Aron Zaawi (2) IL
                    From 2000 to 2006, hundreds of shelling and provocations, and then after the "victory", as cut off


                    Aaron you are an "old" man, why are you - you're lying
                    Here are the data from your Israeli press (true until 2011):
                    Shelling of Israel from Lebanon after the 2006 war. Statistics


                    November 29, 2011. Four Grad rockets were launched across Israel. Damage caused. There are no injuries.

                    May 25, 2011. The forces of UNIFIL and the Lebanese army thwarted an attempt to rocket fire on Israeli territory. The militants were not detained, and a day later attacked a UNIFIL patrol, wounding six Italian troops.

                    August 3, 2010. Skirmish on the Lebanese-Israeli border. Three Lebanese soldiers and a journalist were killed, an IDF lieutenant colonel was killed and another Israeli officer was seriously injured.

                    October 27, 2009. Lebanese militants launched the Grad rocket through Israeli territory. No harm done. The IDF responded with artillery fire. Four rockets were later discovered that the militants did not manage to launch. Media reported that responsibility for shelling Israeli territory was borne by a group associated with the World Jihad (according to different versions, the "Abdullah Azam Brigades" or the "Ziad Jarrah Battalions").

                    September 11, 2009. Several missiles were fired in northern Israel from southern Lebanon (two missiles fell on Israeli territory, one in Lebanon). No harm done. The media reported on the responsibility of the Sunni group Fatah al-Islam.


                    Read fully here:http://newsru.co.il/mideast/29nov2011/mis_lebanon_104.html
                    1. +3
                      27 December 2014 22: 59
                      Vatnik, these provocations are so insignificant that they did not even remain in memory. Can this be compared with the X-actions in 2000-2006?
                      1. The comment was deleted.
                      2. -1
                        27 December 2014 23: 51
                        Quote: Aaron Zawi
                        Vatnik, these provocations are so insignificant that they did not even remain in memory. Can this be compared with the X-actions in 2000-2006?


                        I didn’t find how much (can you tell?), But I think very little until you started the aggression against Lebanon.
                      3. michodil
                        -3
                        28 December 2014 16: 43
                        I think it’s time to start, otherwise the Arabesses have already spawned many small terrorists, it’s time for the new generation to get acquainted with the bombamim per ton
                      4. 0
                        28 December 2014 00: 20
                        Quote: Aaron Zawi
                        Vatnik, these provocations are so insignificant that they did not even remain in memory. Can this be compared with the X-actions in 2000-2006?


                        I also looked for it all the same your fantasies about strong shelling before the start of your attack on Lebanon. understand laughing it is necessary to "exaggerate".
                        Well then, another video, from which "formally" the war of 2006 began (a special operation of the valiant Hezbollah):
                  2. michodil
                    -4
                    28 December 2014 15: 34
                    You will not have gas and oil, and you are empty space, and even the Chechens don’t have enough money for tribute
  35. +2
    27 December 2014 14: 14
    Quote: i80186

    Regarding the Merkava, I will say this: I would prefer that they were instead of the Leopards and Abrams at NATO in Europe. I’m just asleep and I see a tank regiment forcing on the "Merkava" of the Southern Bug in the conditions of the use of weapons of mass destruction, without aviation support. laughing

    Do you want a nuclear war? Are you mentally ill?
  36. +9
    27 December 2014 14: 18
    Article set +, but it was not a field tanker who wrote it.

    There is no comparison of the training of tankers from different countries. By training, I mean the whole complex from ideological to coherence of a separate crew. From platoon tactics to belief in a regiment / division commander.
    Mongolia, 70s. There was a former adviser to the Egyptian army in the war of 67 in the tank regiment. So he spoke about the actions of the Arabs in such a way that out of five words, ten were obscene. His appearance in our company / battalion began with an introduction about his sudden appearance in the rear or on the enemy flank with the support of aviation. So he praised the Jews precisely for their training. And regarding the bad T-55s - Israel still uses the captured BMPs as excellent and abandoned the Amer's M-2s. As my battalion commander used to say: "The main thing is not to go in a tank". In the sense of not being afraid to do your job and do well.
    soldier
    1. +3
      27 December 2014 14: 33
      Quote: My address
      ... As my battalion commander used to say: "The main thing is not to go in a tank". In the sense of not being afraid to do your job and do well.

      And I thought because of the small volume ... laughing
      1. +1
        27 December 2014 14: 47
        I generally had a relatively long time on commanders / bosses. For example, the battalion commander and one of the chiefs in production were of those whom they say that it is very difficult with them, but also very interesting. They lived their own business. The first was lost in the battalion, and the second dragged a blanket and a pillow to work. Although the battalion and the site / shop were in good standing. It was easy to bring such people to my head. hi
        And from fans of gas attacks there is a fan and a kick of the commander. laughing
  37. +2
    27 December 2014 14: 25
    Merkava is the heaviest tank among all, but the thickness of the armor nowadays does not solve anything, Merkava is a very non-moving tank, which makes it a target for t90
    1. +1
      27 December 2014 15: 01
      Now we read that the Israelis themselves write about the loss of armored vehicles in 2006 (Israeli site, with pictures of that war smile ):
      Loss of armored vehicles in the Second Lebanon War
      http://waronline.org/IDF/Articles/history/2nd-lebanon-war/acv-losses/
      More about Hezbollah’s weapons:
      Most Hezbollah weapons belonged to the IDF
      A significant part of the weapons, ammunition and equipment used by Hezbollah during the current war in Lebanon belonged to the IDF in the past. The Ynet website quotes the deputy commander of the trophy team, Major Meir Gutman, that the bulletproof vests, walkie-talkies, Kalashnikovs and automatic M-16 rifles found after the destruction of the militants were left in Lebanon by the Israeli army. According to Gutman, these things were either stolen in the IDF's warehouses or left by Israeli units during the withdrawal of troops from southern Lebanon in May 2000. smile
      http://www.isra.com/news/71079
  38. +3
    27 December 2014 14: 31
    I would like to see them in the "Tank Biathlon" and compare them, only not in dashing jumps from a gopalka, but in exactly hitting targets, cross-country ability and other things necessary in a real battle!
    1. MACCABI TLV
      +2
      27 December 2014 16: 15
      I would have spent money on sports (i.e. biathlon), I would have spent on normal tank baht exercises. calmly ... without bluffs.
      1. +1
        27 December 2014 16: 20
        Quote: MACCABI TLV
        I would have spent money on a dispute

        It is necessary to develop what would bring income. Won formula 1 grandmother pounds, than tanks worse?
  39. +7
    27 December 2014 14: 41
    Now a few photos than in reality (in most cases) were "beaten"
    Merkava praised here smile
    And of course these are our old acquaintances, "ancient" Babies, TOU and RPG-7 (weapons seized from Hezbollah in 2006):


    So all the inventions of the Jews about the "exclusiveness of their army, and in particular the armored vehicles, are sheer inventions."
    After all, you can only imagine an army with hundreds of planes and hundreds of helicopters with thousands of tanks and armored personnel carriers with a huge number of UAVs, dozens of satellites and full US support - YOU WERE NOT ABLE TO FIVE FIVE THOUSAND PARTICIPANTS WITH ARMED OLD BERDANKI AND SIMPLE FRIENDLY lol
    A shame that the world has not yet seen and the TOTAL VICTORY OF THE LEBANIAN RESISTANCE.
  40. -3
    27 December 2014 14: 42
    Quote: Katsin
    During the second Lebanese war, 2 merkava 4 were irretrievably lost, one after being hit by an explosive device of 100 kg under the bottom, the second after multiple ATGM hits.


    You’re cheating, I don’t blame, I would also love my country. You already had a solid design bureau working, they were looking for opposition to Cornet, it makes me happy! Cheap Cornet, made nervous as much as KB! And how many of your young boys were killed in bunkers and dugouts from the hits of Cornet? What do you think up? soldier
    1. +2
      27 December 2014 15: 11
      And "burial", the Merkava is ready for "burial" smile :
    2. +2
      27 December 2014 15: 33
      Are you at war with Israel? If not, why are you happy?
      Quote: Rodriques
      it pleases me! And how many of your young boys were killed in bunkers and dugouts from the hits of Cornet?
  41. +2
    27 December 2014 15: 19
    "The Valiant" smile Merkava in Gaza:

    1. +4
      27 December 2014 16: 43
      On the first video. If it were to continue after the explosion, it would be possible to accurately judge that the attack hit Merkava or, on the contrary, KAZ Trophy worked and the car remained unharmed.
      And the second video, a common thing in the war: a mine blast, a tank fell to the sidelines, well, neither Merkava nor T90 nor any other armored vehicles are safe from this.
      1. 0
        27 December 2014 16: 50
        Quote: ivanovich
        On the first video. If it were to continue after the explosion, it would be possible to accurately judge that the attack hit Merkava or, on the contrary, KAZ Trophy worked and the car remained unharmed.
        And the second video, a common thing in the war: a mine blast, a tank fell to the sidelines, well, neither Merkava nor T90 nor any other armored vehicles are safe from this.


        Of course, of course, the "valiant" Trophy reflected everything, but it's interesting to know why you even decided that this tank is equipped with a KAZ?
        1. +3
          27 December 2014 16: 51
          Quote: quilted jacket
          why did you decide that KAZ is on this tank?

          with the fact that the movie ends.
          1. -3
            27 December 2014 16: 54
            Quote: Kars
            Quote: quilted jacket
            why did you decide that KAZ is on this tank?

            with the fact that the movie ends.


            So what?
            1. +3
              27 December 2014 16: 58
              Quote: quilted jacket
              So what?

              The question is why? And effectiveness.
              I saw the same video on YouTube signed as trophy repulsed the ATGM attack.
              1. The comment was deleted.
                1. +1
                  27 December 2014 17: 34
                  Quote: quilted jacket
                  Another Jewish "tale" about Trophy.

                  But the movie is not Jewish.
                  1. -1
                    27 December 2014 17: 44
                    Quote: Kars
                    Quote: quilted jacket
                    Another Jewish "tale" about Trophy.

                    But the movie is not Jewish.


                    Correctly and on a roller hit in Merkava.
                    What is not clear then?
                    1. +4
                      27 December 2014 18: 11
                      Quote: quilted jacket

                      Correctly and on a roller hit in Merkava.
                      What is not clear then?

                      Whether there was a hit or KAZ worked. Where is the fire, where are the tankers leaving the car.
                      In general, the explosion did not impress, there is a persistent feeling that it did not occur on the armor.
                      1. 0
                        27 December 2014 18: 43
                        Kars (3)
                        Whether there was a hit or KAZ worked. Where is the fire, where are the tankers leaving the car.
                        In general, the explosion did not impress, there is a persistent feeling that it did not occur on the armor.

                        Well, you are in vain so you can agree to a lot in smile
                        In general, this is a war. Hamas guerrillas hit a tank and quickly moved away, as they do in all the armies of the world.
                        There is nothing strange here.
                      2. +3
                        27 December 2014 18: 59
                        Quote: quilted jacket
                        Well, you are in vain so you can agree to a lot in

                        Why negotiate - you have provided the video, you have commented on it.
                        Quote: quilted jacket
                        In general, this is a war. Hamas guerrillas hit a tank and quickly retreated

                        something from Iraq and Syria is a video where the filming continues, and you can see the same Abrams glowing with a blue flame.
                      3. 0
                        27 December 2014 19: 12
                        Kars (3) UA Today, 18: 59 ↑
                        something from Iraq and Syria is a video where the filming continues, and you can see the same Abrams glowing with a blue flame.


                        Kars, you are from the same series as the professor (are you also a Jew?) He also needs lists of all the people who died in Gaza, otherwise he does not believe that they died.

                        And now let me ask you, prove that KAZ shot down the rocket.
                        There is at least some evidence other than "baby talk" - it seems to me to see each other, etc.?
                      4. +4
                        27 December 2014 19: 17
                        Quote: quilted jacket
                        Kars, you are from the same series as the professor (are you also a Jew?) He also needs lists of all the people who died in Gaza, otherwise he does not believe that they died.

                        I don’t need this.
                        Quote: quilted jacket
                        here let me ask you, prove that KAZ shot down the rocket.

                        This can be seen from the explosion, not on the armor, too weak for Pturs, it seems that KAZ destroyed the rocket, and we saw how its fragments and flew.

                        not happy - let's continue the video - to destroy the tank it is required, to confirm the operation of KAZ is not required.
                        Quote: quilted jacket
                        There is at least some evidence other than "baby talk" - it seems to me to see each other, etc.?

                        you don’t like the okay approach - change my words to affirm.
                      5. -1
                        27 December 2014 21: 09
                        Kars (3) UA Today, 19: 17 ↑
                        This can be seen from the explosion, not on the armor, too weak for Pturs, it seems that KAZ destroyed the rocket, and we saw how its fragments and flew.
                        That is, ATGMs should explode at least like an atomic bomb? smile
                        not happy - let's continue the video - to destroy the tank it is required, to confirm the operation of KAZ is not required.


                        Continue to ask the Israelis.
                        The rocket hit the tank and the "remnants" of the hinged armor flew in different directions.
                        Mustache smile
                        Prove the opposite.
                      6. +3
                        27 December 2014 21: 14
                        Quote: quilted jacket
                        Continue to ask the Israelis.

                        And why not those who shot?
                        Quote: quilted jacket
                        Missile hit the tank

                        This is not visible on the video.
                        Quote: quilted jacket
                        the "remnants" of the hinged booking flew in different directions

                        Fragments of the rocket body and the membrane of the KAZ unit
                        Quote: quilted jacket
                        Prove the opposite.

                        Prove the opposite.
                      7. -2
                        27 December 2014 21: 19
                        You can stay with your opinion smile ,It's your problems.
                      8. +5
                        27 December 2014 21: 34
                        Quote: quilted jacket
                        You can remain with your opinion, these are your problems.

                        just as your opinion is also your personal problem.
                      9. michodil
                        -1
                        28 December 2014 16: 56
                        and you are not an Arab?)) or children of friendship of peoples?))
                      10. 0
                        31 December 2014 12: 50
                        You still measure his head with a vernier caliper
        2. +2
          27 December 2014 17: 06
          why not Trophy and stand on Merkava 4? or do you base your conclusions on the pathos names of videos that Arabs can stamp indiscriminately into their contents for agitation?
          1. +2
            27 December 2014 17: 20
            Quote: ivanovich
            why not Trophy and stand on Merkava 4? or do you base your conclusions on the pathos names of videos that Arabs can stamp indiscriminately into their contents for agitation?


            And where did you see the Merkava-4 on the video (maybe it's a "troika")?
            Yes, and a fairy tale about the fact that the trophy knocks everything down, tell the children better. Instead of "focusing" on the advertising legends about the KAZ Israel.
            1. +3
              27 December 2014 17: 45
              it was just on the "troika" that the Trophy was run-in, everything is possible, but I will repeat from the video it was not clear whether it was hit in the tank or the ATGM was destroyed by the Trophy, it is not clear because there is no continuation of the video after the explosion.
              and the fact that Trophy is a new level of protection against PTS is already clear, the Israelis installed it, but we haven’t done it with our Arena for 20 years, probably thanks to such haters as you))) apparently a military history of 41 years, we never went for the future.
              1. 0
                27 December 2014 18: 06
                ivanovich RU Today, 17:45 ↑ New

                it was just on the "troika" that the Trophy was run-in, everything is possible, but I will repeat from the video it was not clear whether it was hit in the tank or the ATGM was destroyed by the Trophy, it is not clear because there is no continuation of the video after the explosion.


                Well, if you are such an "extraordinary" connoisseur of Trophy, tell us how many (number) machines is it installed at all?
                And for one thing, why not one country in the world (except Israel, and
                even the USA their best friend and sponsor) does not install KAZ on their tanks.
                They do not take care of their soldiers, or all the people of the world are "stupid" in contrast to the Jews lol
                1. +5
                  27 December 2014 21: 37
                  and what will personally change for you if you find out that Trophy is installed on 200 Merkava 4 tanks?
                  whether the information that the Abrams has an AN / VLQ-6 MCD active protection system can affect your backward views and your thinking with the retro categories of past years, and for the Abrams M1A3 versions, the active FCLAS system and the ARAT-2 dynamic protection are installed.
                  dispute about anything because they tell you about progress, and you about regression.
                  1. 0
                    27 December 2014 21: 44
                    Quote: ivanovich
                    and what will personally change for you if you find out that Trophy is installed on 200 Merkava 4 tanks?
                    whether the information that the Abrams has an AN / VLQ-6 MCD active protection system can affect your backward views and your thinking with the retro categories of past years, and for the Abrams M1A3 versions, the active FCLAS system and the ARAT-2 dynamic protection are installed.
                    dispute about anything because they tell you about progress, and you about regression.


                    Are you kidding about the Abrams?
                    Yes, and now tell me why the Jews install their Trophy on the Merkava-4 and Namer, but on the M-113, for example, no. They don’t feel sorry for the soldiers who ride in them or are they so "second class"?
                    1. +1
                      27 December 2014 21: 55
                      Oh Merkava was blown up, but in it of course everyone is alive and well:
                      1. +5
                        27 December 2014 23: 24
                        By the way, maybe they are alive. Secondary detanations are not visible and the explosion is rather weak.
                      2. 0
                        28 December 2014 00: 57
                        Quote: Kars
                        By the way, maybe they are alive. Secondary detanations are not visible and the explosion is rather weak.


                        Exactly, now I understand why you "deny" everything.
                        Do not be shy, you were sitting in this tank during the explosion lol
                        And I think how he knows everything.
                        And still I am not a Jew, not from Israel.
                        Here is a sly smile
                      3. +3
                        28 December 2014 01: 08
                        Quote: quilted jacket
                        And still I am not a Jew, not from Israel.

                        Strange I said this? It’s a national issue that torments you. And I can assure you that I’m in Zaporozhye and have never been to Israel)) But I’m technically technical. and Merkava is structurally distinguished by great resistance to mines.

                        but in general I like Israeli armored vehicles, both original and their vision of remaking purchased and captured vehicles.
                      4. -1
                        28 December 2014 12: 47
                        Yes, you can see for a long time that you like any Israeli technique from the USA, etc.
                        Only not Russian.
                        But naturally, this is your right.
                        Therefore, you can "imagine" that not one Israeli soldier was killed, not one tank was destroyed, not a single rocket fell on cities, and so on. smile
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                      6. The comment was deleted.
                      7. The comment was deleted.
                      8. +2
                        29 December 2014 11: 23
                        N yes the padded jacket was blown away. Apparently the toad crushed all the same and the truth about the bolabol is unbearable to him)))
                      9. -1
                        29 December 2014 13: 25
                        Yes, at least a VO user with much more experience of finding himself here))

                        That is you, nobody smile
                        Just a user and amateur modeler.
                        Well, laughter for no reason you yourself know, and I'm not a mythical special, but I certainly know more than you.

                        There is a reason.
                        Yes, from games to model cars and cars, I grew up a long time ago.
                        You have apparently grown into a lifestyle.
                        Nothing is scary, some "men" smile until death remain children.
                        Everything can be, but I’m not like your environment. In principle, you can ask for more information (although the meaning is still nothing to expect from you except balabolstvo)

                        Indeed, there are no children in my environment, and there are no “none” eithersmile
                        By the way, if a toad presses you to do something for PR of Russian tanks, I can accept Abrams as a gift to turn it into my favorite photo of Abrams (which I voiced many times, but not for you came up with just that)

                        Lord, earn at least once in your life yourself. And that is used to "beg" toys from adults.
                        And what of such a "child" can grow?
                        Only a dependent asking the "big uncles" for a toy now, and a car or an apartment will grow up.
                        Horror lol
                      10. +2
                        29 December 2014 18: 00
                        Oban))) what an empty spot emerged from the emergency))))

                        Quote: quilted jacket
                        That is you, nobody

                        If I'm nobody, then you are generally minus personality)))
                        Quote: quilted jacket
                        Yes, from games to model cars and cars, I grew up a long time ago.
                        You have apparently grown into a lifestyle

                        But I didn’t get my mind (((
                        And yes, modeling is my lifestyle.
                        Quote: quilted jacket
                        Indeed, in my environment there are no children, and there are no "none"

                        That is, your children can break toys there?)))
                        Quote: quilted jacket
                        Lord, earn at least once in your life yourself

                        )) Oh you see a toad erupting)) at first it was afraid that I was drunk or a fraudster))
                        I buy it myself, but I love gifts, especially for the fact that I myself would not buy))) For example, the second T-90 with a cast tower, or BMPT
                        Quote: quilted jacket
                        Only a dependent asking the "big uncles" for a toy now, and a car or an apartment will grow up.

                        Well, I thought in the Russian Federation people live richer than ours in Ukraine)) Romanov had 30 bank accounts, he said, ask what you want)) And you are just a balobol that only hurts and lies)))
                        Well, so that I would not seem unfounded
                      11. 0
                        29 December 2014 18: 05
                        Quote: Kars
                        Oban))) what an empty spot emerged from the emergency))))

                        Still having fun?
                        I read the laid out here _
                      12. +1
                        29 December 2014 18: 48
                        Quote: Cynic
                        Still having fun?

                        Not an empty place has given me a call
                        Quote: quilted jacket
                        Yes, you can see for a long time that you like any Israeli technique from the USA, etc.
                        Only not Russian.

                        So you say this is true?
                      13. 0
                        29 December 2014 20: 26
                        Quote: Kars
                        So you say this is true?

                        Yeah, got you Kars
                        Here padded jacket touched on a very controversial topic.
                        Firstly, good technical solutions cannot but like, regardless of the manufacturer. Whoever disagrees with this is an outsider in this matter.
                        Secondly, what about not love for Russian technology, but what is the other? Except Russian?
                        Well, this is a joke of humor.
                        In fact, the shortcomings of their technology are always more visible.
                        Here it’s to me that he is Abrams and that I am that Abrams, but the T-80U ...
                        Yes, no offense drinks
                      14. +1
                        29 December 2014 20: 55
                        Quote: Cynic
                        but T-80U ..

                        Let someone here say that I do not respect T-80U / UD))
                      15. -1
                        29 December 2014 19: 15
                        If I'm nobody, then you are generally minus personality)))

                        Minus personality smile like a child from kindergarten has come smile
                        I buy it myself, but I love gifts, especially for the fact that I myself would not buy))) For example, the second T-90 with a cast tower, or BMPT

                        Well, I thought in the Russian Federation people live richer than ours in Ukraine)) Romanov had 30 bank accounts, he said, ask what you want)) And you are just a balobol that only hurts and lies)))
                        Well, so that I would not seem unfounded

                        Well, you mess everywhere toys are scattered. Here restless child.
                        First, ask mom to clean your room while you are in kindergarten.
                        Secondly, judging by the handwriting, you just learned to write and even then apparently with difficulty smile
                        P.S. Or is it your mom wrote it? lol
                        Thirdly, you did not make a discovery here, all children love gifts and you are certainly no exception.
                        In the fourth gifts must be earned. Got it?
                        You will behave yourself and obey your mother, maybe I will give you some kind of rattle.
                      16. The comment was deleted.
                      17. 0
                        29 December 2014 19: 45


                        I thought you were growing up, now there is simply no doubt, you are definitely a natural child.
                        Are you even a glue yourself, these models?
                        Or mom and uncles help smile
                        PS Honestly, if I knew right away that you were so young, I wouldn’t communicate. I only spent time on you.
                      18. The comment was deleted.
                      19. The comment was deleted.
                      20. +1
                        29 December 2014 18: 01
                        And so now they have released a lot according to the First World War - I took the first tank of the classic layout.
                      21. 0
                        29 December 2014 19: 32
                        He took belay , and maybe, as always, begged for good "uncles"? laughing

                        And T - 90 MS, I have not seen such a video:
                      22. +1
                        29 December 2014 20: 03
                        Quote: quilted jacket
                        And T - 90 MS, I haven’t seen such a video

                        And what to watch it has already been dismantled, and made of it BMPT for the Indian exhibition.
                2. michodil
                  0
                  28 December 2014 16: 47
                  who knows, maybe stupid))
    2. The comment was deleted.
  42. xren
    +6
    27 December 2014 15: 26
    in three Merkavas Mk2, 10 people died, in four Mk3 - 9, in six Mk4 - 11. Hence the extremely disappointing conclusion: the majority of crew members were killed in the most modern Israeli tanks Merkava Mk4.


    Just for a shot, Mk2 - 3.33 dead to defeat,
    Mk3 - 2.25,
    Mk4 - 1.8

    Very good progress.
    1. 0
      27 December 2014 15: 48
      xren RU Today, 15:26
      Very good progress.


      Well, what kind of "progress" can there be?
      Firstly, they only fight with partisans of which there are very few, and their weapons are very old.
      Secondly, Israeli (as well as American) favorite tactics is to shoot people from afar with the help of artillery and aircraft. In close combat, they are simply "afraid" to get involved, and when they do get involved, they suffer "big" losses.
      1. +3
        27 December 2014 18: 36
        Quote: quilted jacket

        Well, what kind of "progress" can there be?
        Firstly, they only fight with partisans of which there are very few, and their weapons are very old.
        Secondly, Israeli (as well as American) favorite tactics is to shoot people from afar with the help of artillery and aircraft. In close combat, they are simply "afraid" to get involved, and when they do get involved, they suffer "big" losses.

        oh how. I wonder who has Hezbollah "partisan" against in Lebanon since 2000? Against the government in Beirut, so it is then the "Illegal Armed Formation".
        Our tactics are correct. To use when possible, all the advantages of fire, which would save the lives of their soldiers. What's wrong?
        Well, as for the melee, stay with your delusions. Do you think the Israeli infantry is weak? To health. lol
        1. -1
          27 December 2014 18: 54
          Aron Zaawi (2) IL
          oh how. I wonder who has Hezbollah "partisan" against in Lebanon since 2000? Against the government in Beirut, so it is then the "Illegal Armed Formation".

          Don't pretend to be so illiterate smile Hezbollah is part of the Lebanese government, and has its own police (as well as many parties in this state).
          Our tactics are correct. To use when possible, all the advantages of fire, which would save the lives of their soldiers. What's wrong?

          Your tactics are in principle correct and aimed at saving the lives of your soldiers.
          But only its embodiment is criminal since your army strikes not at armed and opposing people, but at their families (unarmed old people, women, children), trying in this way to break the resistance of the partisans.
          That is, they act as punishers destroying the civilian population.
          1. michodil
            -4
            28 December 2014 17: 06
            I did not know that in Lebanon there is a civilian population)
  43. Permyak
    +2
    27 December 2014 15: 38
    The best tank in the world becomes when it wins a world war. So both candidates are still
  44. 0
    27 December 2014 15: 41
    It seems to me that in order to stop these useless and unnecessary disputes, you just need to GIFT this unfortunate T-90S to the "brothers" Arabs from Egypt, Libya and Syria.
    1. MACCABI TLV
      +4
      27 December 2014 15: 55
      Do you think it's time for the Israelis to start designing the Ahzarit MK2?
    2. +5
      27 December 2014 17: 45
      Quote: Takashi
      you just need to present this unfortunate T-90S to the "brothers" Arabs from Egypt, Libya and Syria.

      Again gifts to "brothers" - THIS IS THEM!
  45. +3
    27 December 2014 16: 03
    Well, once again about the fairy tale, all the Merkavas were hit from Cornet smile :
    Israel has not proven that Hezbollah has Russian weapons
    Israel has not provided Russia with any evidence that Hezbollah is using Russian-made anti-tank systems, Russian Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov said, RIA Novosti reported. On August 2006, adviser to Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert Asaf Sharif ( Asaf Shariv). Earlier, a number of Western media reported that IDF servicemen had found Russian-made Kornet anti-tank missiles at Hezbollah militants. The head of the Russian defense department on Friday morning categorically denied these statements, calling them "complete nonsense." "No one has provided us with any evidence of Hezbollah's Kornet anti-tank systems," Ivanov said at a press conference in Magadan. At the same time, he stressed that it is "simply ridiculous" to call the anti-tank grenade launchers used by Hezbollah militants during the conflict as modern weapons.
    http://forum.md/683599
    1. michodil
      -1
      28 December 2014 17: 13
      From Vatnik cool partisans would have turned out, just knows everything, and who is fighting and how they are fighting and how) Can you help the partisans against the Zionists?)) Maybe 72 women will also crossdress you))
  46. 0
    27 December 2014 17: 23
    So, Abrams recently figured out, now with Merkava!
    Who is next?

    Interestingly, everyone uses the concept of irretrievable losses, I don’t need anyone, I think, to explain what the irreparable loss is for the advancing side, and even the victorious ...
    But in fact, all the reasoning is virtual and God forbid someone ever to discuss the results of the battles of the above machines.
    Quote: quilted jacket
    The head of the Russian defense department on Friday morning categorically denied these statements, calling them "complete nonsense." "No one has provided us with any evidence that Hezbollah has Kornet anti-tank systems," Ivanov said at a press conference in Magadan.

    Provided, did not provide _ generally black humor, but not one thousand of them went for export!
    1. +3
      27 December 2014 17: 48
      Quote: Cynic
      So, Abrams recently figured out, now with Merkava!
      Who is next?

      "The more fish I eat, the better I sleep.
      The stronger I sleep, the healthier I will be
      And I will defeat everyone, and I will defeat everyone! And I will defeat everyone! "
    2. -1
      27 December 2014 22: 01
      Well, they couldn’t prove at all that Hezbollah had a Cornet from Russia.
      From this and "dance" smile
      1. 0
        28 December 2014 14: 19
        Quote: quilted jacket
        Well, they couldn’t prove at all that Hezbollah had a Cornet from Russia.

        Have they tried?
        The meaning is that?
        They were delivered to Libya, Syria, even Eritrea!
        Provide the Russian Cornet (and whose else) and run into the answer _ Sam dyruk _ this complex was delivered in a shaggy year to the Middle East state, from which now there are horns and legs left ?!
        Is it really not clear that all this talk about using someone’s weapon in conflicts is either support for the degree of propaganda war (this case), or bringing information war to a new stage.
        hi
        1. 0
          28 December 2014 14: 39
          They tried it, and not only tried it, but shouted "hysterically" to the whole world:
          Israelis have shown material evidence that Hezbollah is firing Russian missiles at them
          http://www.newsru.com/russia/30dec2005/vyzovna.html
          Israel found Tula "Cornets" in Lebanon
          http://lenta.ru/news/2006/08/17/spandrel/
          Israel accuses Russia of supplying terrorists with a Kornet missile that hit a school bus
          http://www.newsru.com/world/14apr2011/kornet.html
          etc.
          1. 0
            28 December 2014 17: 59
            Quote: quilted jacket
            Even as they tried.

            They do not know that we know that they know that we know !!
  47. 0
    27 December 2014 17: 24
    Then I remembered the case when the Syrian T-72 in the battle with the "Merkava" battalion, having used up all the ammunition and not finding a single pillar of smoke, retreated and subsequently sent reconnaissance and found that half or even more of the enemy tanks were hit and there was not a single fire .. ., I mean that in terms of irrecoverable losses in equipment and crew, "Merkava" is, frankly, not in the last places ...
    1. +5
      27 December 2014 17: 29
      But nothing that Merkava and T-72 have never met in battle? ...
      1. 0
        27 December 2014 18: 08
        It seems like in the Lebanese War of 1982, T-72s were used by the Syrians in battles starting somewhere from June 11, 1982, and subsequently there were clashes, although quite often I come across the opinion that this is a myth ... Officially, the Merkava tank "Mk.1 was put into service on October 29, 1979 ...
        1. +1
          27 December 2014 18: 22
          T-72 were only in the guard units. But the guard did not actually participate. This has often been discussed here. Although I do not presume to judge whether there were separate clashes. But the fact that the guard (and the T-72s were armed only with them (if my memory serves me right) did not participate in battles with tanks - this is a fact.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. +3
        27 December 2014 18: 15
        Quote: il grand casino
        But nothing that Merkava and T-72 have never met in battle? ...

        Why study history? And then it suddenly becomes clear that the 1TD SAR entered the battle for 24 hours before the end of hostilities in the 1982 year, and the T-72 stood only in its arms. Well, the only clash of this division occurred when one of its battalions was ambushed by an ATGM company of the landing brigade, which resulted in a knockout from 9 to 11 T-72.
        1. 0
          27 December 2014 18: 34
          Aron Zaawi (2) IL
          Well, the only clash of this division occurred when one of its battalions was ambushed by an ATGM company of an airborne brigade, as a result of which 9–11 T-72s were shot down.


          Another Israeli story, no confirmation of this, except for the tales told by one "old Jewish soldier" - no
          Yes, there is also a photo allegedly from the "place of events" with black spots left by unknown means and who knows where.
          Fudge - 100% smile
  48. The comment was deleted.
  49. The comment was deleted.
    1. 0
      27 December 2014 21: 45
      Quote: comandante
      The scattering was, is and will FOREVER remain

      You can’t hide the truth!
      1. +1
        27 December 2014 22: 14
        Well, one more video for the night, here too, of course, no one died, the valiant Trophy reflected - EVERYTHING lol
        1. +1
          27 December 2014 23: 26
          But in the video, unless Merkava. Something similar to Akharit if they have not yet been written off.
          1. 0
            28 December 2014 12: 37
            And where did I write that this is Merkava?
            It's just that the explosion is not big, the detonation did not happen, then Trophy shot down a rocket laughing
            1. +1
              28 December 2014 13: 04
              Quote: quilted jacket
              It's just that the explosion is not big, the detonation did not happen, then Trophy shot down a rocket

              Here you can see that the explosion occurred on the armor. Why detonate the BMP, there are only machine gun cartridges. And the explosion has a characteristic profile. It would be interesting to get a photo of the video of this car under repair.
              1. 0
                28 December 2014 14: 23
                Kars (3) UA Today, 13: 04 ↑
                What to detonate in the BMP, there are only machine gun cartridges.


                How do you know? And what about personal weapons and ammunition?
                Finally, if it’s Arzahit, as you say, the rocket hit the engine area. But it didn’t catch fire. Strange, right?
                No uniquely "great" Trophy knocked everything down and destroyed lol
                1. +3
                  28 December 2014 14: 41
                  Quote: quilted jacket
                  How do you know? And what about personal weapons and ammunition?

                  ) personal weapon of the landing)) what does it compare with one OFS from the BK tank?
                  Quote: quilted jacket
                  Finally, if it’s Arzahit, as you say, the rocket hit the engine area. But it didn’t catch fire. Strange, right?

                  Do you know what tankers are really jealous of for Jews? It’s for their fire extinguishing systems. I would like an analogue to stand on the Bastion.
                  Quote: quilted jacket
                  No uniquely "great"

                  Definitely you would have to go on some political politics, and not get into the themes of tanks where you boom boom)))
                  By the way, Akharit was presented to me from the promised land))
                  1. -1
                    28 December 2014 15: 08
                    Kars (3) UA Today, 14:41 PM
                    Definitely you would have to go on some political politics, and not get into the themes of tanks where you boom boom)))


                    You are apparently booming - booming.
                    Tank Specialist smile
                    By the way, Akharit was presented to me from the promised land))

                    I didn’t doubt that you had relatives there smile
                    Just a movie about tanks. All tanks.
                    1. +2
                      28 December 2014 15: 25
                      Quote: quilted jacket
                      s apparently boom - boom.
                      Tank Specialist

                      This is my hobby that captivates me with 9 class school)))
                      Quote: quilted jacket
                      I didn’t doubt that you had relatives there

                      relatives do not approve of plastic tanks.
                      Quote: quilted jacket
                      Just a movie about tanks. All tanks.

                      thanks a lot for the video, you can see the bounty of the soul))
          2. 0
            29 December 2014 11: 09
            "Akhzarit" is still in use. "Namer" is not enough in the troops - dear ones.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  50. +4
    27 December 2014 17: 38
    This is the conceptual difference between the Merkava and the T-90S MBT, created, like all Soviet / Russian tanks, for offensive combat and the destruction of tanks, artillery and enemy fortifications. An indestructible armor fist, sweeping away everything in its path with powerful fire - that’s what the Russian T-90S is.

    "In this" - the author! Well, duck what is it !? The Soviet concept consisted precisely in the massive use of MBT with 3-5 times the numerical superiority. Heavy Western MBTs, including the Israeli Merkavas, at one time (the development of the 70s) were created for defensive and deterrent actions, "flying tanks" are not relevant for them. The main role in reducing the number of Soviet (Arab) tanks to nothing was to play the tactical aviation of the Air Force, AT-attack helicopters AA, and ATGM, the following figures about their staffing indicate the saturation of the troops with the latter (US Army, 80s) :
    - motorized infantry battalion. (MPB), 4 mpr, 1 anti-tank company: 12 self-propelled 2x PU ATGM M901 (TOW), 54 2x PU ATGM TOW (3,75 km.) on BMP M2, and 6 PU on BRM M3 Bradley, 36 light ATGMs M47 Dragon (1,5 km.), A total of 108 anti-tank missile systems;
    - infantry airmobile baht. (pamb): 24 ATGM M220 TOW, and 36 ATGM M47 Dragon - 60 ATGM;
    - infantry. (PB) and paratrooper battalion. (PDB): 18 ATGM M220 TOW, and 27 ATGM M47 Dragon - 45 ATGM.
    How will this car behave in the tropical jungle, on soft and swampy soils, in the absence of an extensive road network with hard surface, long distances, an abundance of rivers, swamps and rice plantations?

    No need to try (not Vietnam of the 60s) with the current saturation of infantry with PT means, try to use them in a wooded and swampy area and jungle, for modern MBT there are simply no goals.

    In my opinion, in the author's view, battles (regiments) of tank forces are fighting by themselves everywhere and everywhere, without the participation of other types of the Armed Forces and combat arms, which is called a "tank wedge".
    1. 0
      29 December 2014 11: 12
      Singapore won recently decided to purchase 50 Merkava-4 ...
      Let's see how he is through the jungle ... smile
      1. 0
        8 January 2015 16: 07
        Quote: voyaka uh
        Let's see how he is through the jungle ...

        You have strange ideas about Singapore, and about the use of BTT ...
  51. +1
    27 December 2014 18: 03
    I didn’t understand the article, the disadvantages of one versus the advantages of the other.
    Regarding the Chariot and the 90th, according to the grenade launcher laughing
    On the one hand, the engine in front is good, there is less chance of the crew being destroyed, but on the other hand, if they don’t have time to cover it, the tank will have nothing to get out of the shelling zone, the generator is also dead in oblivion, it won’t be able to turn the turret - we’ll still finish it. A windbreaker is also not a panacea, two people can do it “one, two” with two grenade launchers at one point. If you really get stuck, like in the good old days with hand grenades, you can assemble a cumulative funnel and attach a stabilizer tape on the knee.
    It’s harder to stop the 90th, by placing a mechanical drive on the cumulative jet, it will still rotate the turret and shoot.
  52. 0
    27 December 2014 18: 19
    Well, especially for our patriots from Israel (let them rejoice smile ):

    Merkava-5 with a laser gun will be tested in 2020
    Israel is developing a new main battle tank. He can get an electromagnetic or laser gun. It is planned that the new tank will be constructed by 2020. As you know, modern laser and electromagnetic weapons are too large for armored vehicles. However, it is quite possible that in the near future the dimensions of such guns may be significantly reduced. This was reported by cursorinfo.co.il
    1. +1
      29 December 2014 15: 06
      Quote: quilted jacket
      Israel is developing a new main battle tank. He can get an electromagnetic or laser gun.

      In fact, the article is incorrect; in the original, only a POSSIBLE version of a promising tank and its appearance was discussed
  53. +1
    27 December 2014 18: 49
    Quote: Bayonet
    Are you at war with Israel? If not, why are you happy?

    Once again you will take it out of context to create unnecessary excitement around the post, we will swear, do you understand everything?
  54. lucidlook
    +5
    27 December 2014 18: 59
    We are waiting for the continuation, in which we hope to see a comparison in the following parameters:
    1) Electronic filling:
    a) communication and data transmission systems
    b) information systems about the situation on the battlefield
    c) control center and management at the link level

    2) Resources of main elements
    a) engine (depending on the fuel used in the case of multi-fuel)
    b) chassis
    c) barrel channel

    3) Maintainability and standard hours for replacement of main components and assemblies and their maintenance.
    1. Orlando
      +2
      27 December 2014 19: 04
      Yes, you won’t wait, the author has little understanding of what he writes.
  55. Orlando
    +4
    27 December 2014 19: 02
    again, these comparisons without any technical characteristics with far-reaching conclusions about the complete superiority of the grass snake over the hedgehog.
  56. s1н7т
    +2
    27 December 2014 19: 16
    "...T-90S, created, like all Soviet/Russian tanks, for offensive combat and the destruction of tanks, artillery and enemy fortifications. An indestructible armored fist, sweeping away everything in its path with powerful fire - that’s what the Russian T-90S is ..."
    Is that why the TA had 2 TDs and 2 MSDs on the ETVD? Something looks a little like a tank fist laughing
    Did the author get anything wrong here? In BUSV there is not even a difference between, for example, TV and MSV - that’s how it was written: “Motorized rifle (tank) platoon on the offensive,” right? And where is the “armored fist”? laughing The author, I am sure, believes that combined arms combat is an invention of the decaying West laughing Fuck, the further you go, the less adequate the authors are negative
    1. +1
      28 December 2014 01: 25
      Yes, there is no need to talk about the number of SA tank armies throughout the entire EuroTVD.
      The advanced group of SA in the European theater of operations, only consisting of GSVG (1990)
      - 1 Guards TA - 9 TD and 11 Guards TD, 20 Guards Motorized Rifle Division;
      - 2nd Guards TA - 16th Guards Tank Division, 21st Motorized Rifle Division, 94th Guards Motorized Rifle Division, 207th Motorized Rifle Division;
      - 3 A - 7, 10, 12 and 47 Guards TD;
      - 8 Guards A - 79 Guards TD, 27, 39 and 57 Guards Motorized Rifle Division;
      - 20 Guards.A - 25 TD (until 1989), 32 and 90 Guards TD, 35 Motorized Rifle Division, 6 Guards Omsbr.
      A total of 19 divisions (regular):
      8 TD, 3 TP (94 MBT) and 1 MRR (31 MBT) - 313 MBT;
      3 TD, 2 TP and 2 MSP - 250 MBT;
      3 mechanized infantry divisions, 1st infantry fighting division and 3rd mechanized infantry regiment, 1st TB (31 MBT) - 218 MBT;
      5 MSD, 4 MSP and 1 TB - 155 MBT.
      Total: 4680 MBT.

      For information, there is also a pretty strong group of US Army forces in Germany :
      - 5 AK - 3 brtd, 8 md, 11 obrkp;
      - 7 AK - 1 brtd, 3 md, 2 obrkp.
      In total, there are 2 army corps (AK):
      2 brtd, 6 TB (58 MBT) and 4 MPB - 348 MBT;
      2 mech. divisions, 5 TB and 5 MPB - 290 MBT;
      2 obrkp, 3 reconnaissance baht (41 MBT) - 123 MBT.
      Total: 1520 MBT.
  57. 0
    27 December 2014 19: 20
    The armor is strong and our tanks are fast.
  58. s1н7т
    0
    27 December 2014 19: 23
    kplayer (2) SU Today, 17:38 New

    "In this" - the author! Well, what's the matter!? The Soviet concept consisted precisely in the massive use of MBTs with 3-5 times numerical superiority.
    ___________________________________
    Share this concept! I graduated from the Soviet tank school and never heard of this one laughing But in BUSV there is neither MBT nor a 3-5 times superiority of tanks.
    1. 0
      27 December 2014 19: 34
      But what about the survivability of a tank in a combined arms battle for 2-5 minutes? winked Not a tanker, but we studied this) By the way, I would like comments from real tankers on this axiom.
    2. +1
      27 December 2014 19: 57
      The naive uncle clearly expected to see in the section FUNDAMENTALS OF SOVIET MILITARY DOCTRINE.
      ...author! Well, what's the matter!?
    3. The comment was deleted.
  59. +1
    27 December 2014 19: 53
    atalef (6) IL Today, 13: 15 ↑
    Quote: Yarik
    Our potential opponents had the entire T line - which the USSR sold them (at that time the most modern tanks) - do you know the result of all wars?

    So the enemy was the Arabs...with all the attendant wink
    Who are the teachers?
    And what the hell did you have to burn so much dough (and even more than once) --- if the Arabs, or do you think that they have changed over the years?


    It seems to me that at the Arab level it’s more about personal qualities and not about “teachers”. Strategy and tactics are taking a rest. It’s just how it happened historically due to something. Let me clarify, I’m not a Nazi.
  60. +9
    27 December 2014 20: 39
    The theory of the striking power of tanks is the last century. The same thing happened when Voroshilov and Budyonny in the 30s represented the cavalry as the striking force..... The analogy is direct. Everything changes. Where is the striking power of Uropov’s tanks in Novorossiya????? They burn for their dear soul.... And taking into account the location of the crew (T64, T72 and beyond...) next to the ammunition...... I am silent..... the figures for Israeli losses among the crews (in the article) can be considered ideal.
  61. 0
    27 December 2014 21: 10
    Quote: Katsin
    Regarding the T-90, I’ll say this: I would prefer that Egypt and the Saudis have T-90, and not Abrams

    No question, dear. Now let’s pick up a calculator and do the math. The T-90 costs from 2,4 to 3 million dollars. The price of the same Abrams is about 7-8 million. The Leopard is 6 million dollars. And let’s also think about this moment, like the speed of tank production. Now let’s add all this up cheerfully and multiply it by the qualifications of the crews. With equal qualifications and superiority on the battlefield of Russian vehicles (whose cannon hits 5 km), how many chances do the brave Israeli tank crews have? the tank itself, so excuse me, a Russian tank is a tank, and a Merkava is a construction kit made from spare parts of other tanks. The gun is German, the engine is Amerovian. What can you compare? A Lego construction kit with a battle tank?
    1. lucidlook
      +5
      27 December 2014 22: 33
      Did you keep silent about LAHAT out of ignorance or on purpose?
    2. 0
      28 December 2014 04: 40
      Quote: NEXUS
      and superiority on the battlefield of Russian vehicles (whose cannon hits 5 km)

      In fact, the norm for a range of 5-7 km of aimed fire existed in the IDF back in the 60s (L7 105mm APFSDS), when the T-55 fired at most at 3,5 km (due to the quality of the optics, among other reasons).

      The fact that you have caught up with our indicator of half a century ago, in terms of destruction range, is a reason for shame rather than pride. negative

      There is no advantage, but rather, on the contrary, a lag in situational awareness, quality of communications, coordination of interaction of forces, and the quality of ammunition. negative

      Quote: NEXUS
      How many chances do the brave Israeli tank crews have?


      Their chances are about the same as those of a grizzly bear against an “attacking” salmon laughing



      1. Net
        Net
        -1
        28 December 2014 13: 17
        An English cannon, a Rheinmetal shell, and what’s yours? Urapatriotism if only
        1. 0
          28 December 2014 16: 54
          Quote: Netto
          English cannon, Rheinmetall shell...

          There were in the 60s. For about 25 years everything has been its own, “home made” as they say.



          The IMI 120 mm gun is an L44 smoothbore tank gun designed and produced by Israeli Military Industries (IMI). It is widely confused as a licensed production of the Rheinmetall L44 tank gun, however it was developed by IMI from 1983 to 1988.
          1. Net
            Net
            +2
            28 December 2014 17: 42
            Well then, there is no need to write about the 60-70s, the technology is not yours. And by the way, what is this phenomenal aimed shooting at 5-7 km? Isn’t this the case where the Arabs were fired at from a hill, that is, you are using an obviously isolated case of a combat situation as a standard characteristic of a weapon? I didn’t read any nanotechnology in the description of this episode, other than “specially trained tank crews.” With such “preparation” you need to go to the tank biathlon, they miss at much shorter distances, of course on the centurion of the 60s so that ours have at least some chance wink
            1. 0
              28 December 2014 18: 41
              Quote: Netto
              Well then, there is no need to write about the 60-70s, the technology is not yours. And by the way, what is this phenomenal aimed shooting at 5-7 km? Isn’t this the case where the Arabs were fired at from a hill, that is, you are using an obviously isolated case of a combat situation as a standard characteristic of a weapon? I didn’t read any nanotechnology in the description of this episode, other than “specially trained tank crews.” With such “preparation” you need to go to the tank biathlon, they miss at much shorter distances, of course on the centurion of the 60s so that ours have at least some chance wink


              1. I repeat for the inattentive - this technology has been ours for several decades now.

              2. An isolated case was the use of a tank as artillery against a Syrian position, and the range was about 12 km.
              5-7 km is the norm. (You can use Google Maps to measure our tank shooting ranges in the Negev, they are clearly visible from satellites)

              3. We will arrive on the Mk-4 when you finish Armata, “so that yours have at least some chance” tongue
      2. 0
        30 December 2014 03: 23
        Sorry for the expression, but you are just behaving like a market woman. Slander and slander without any measure. Tank building in the USSR never pursued accurate shooting ranges for the simple reason that there are very few places where this can be realized in Europe. Even in the flat terrain of the Leningrad region, there are rarely open distances of more than 3 km, and most often 500-1000 m, and there are so many opportunities to camouflage that the aiming range is often meaningless. And the atmosphere is different. In Israel, the conditions for long-range observation and shooting are completely different. There is no point in chasing performance characteristics that are not applicable. Or do you prefer to fight about obviously stupid topics? Well, let's cut down the Merkava for not doing a 1000 km march.
  62. +2
    27 December 2014 21: 41
    wassat there's no popcorn here
    1. 0
      27 December 2014 21: 52
      Quote: freerider
      there's no popcorn here

      The dark humor of the situation lies in the fact that opponents are talking about the same thing, but from different positions
  63. Death Nik1
    +2
    27 December 2014 22: 07
    Who is stronger, a whale or an elephant?
  64. 0
    27 December 2014 22: 14
    How can we compare a tank that weighs 70 tons and will get stuck on any arable land? This tank is only for their theater of operations, deserts with hard soil. It is difficult to transfer them somewhere. It's like a Jewish machine gun with a crooked barrel to shoot from around the corner, safe, but not effective.
    1. 0
      27 December 2014 23: 18
      Looking at the combat use of tanks, from any state, with any protection, as soon as it appears in the field of view of means capable of hitting it (not even the first time), the tank de facto ceases to exist, so that’s what I asked, why in According to the infantry regulations, a tank lives for 2-5 minutes on the battlefield?
  65. 0
    27 December 2014 23: 32
    Quote: Rodriques
    Why, according to the infantry regulations, does a tank last 2-5 minutes on the battlefield?

    These are fairly arbitrary figures, as they are influenced by many factors, from the qualifications and skill of the crew to the presence, say, of enemy helicopters, which can destroy an entire column in one salvo. And of course, individual means of combating armored vehicles are also important. One tank can hold out not one battle is without significant damage, and another does not take part in the battle for 10 seconds, after meeting, for example, with a helicopter or a mine.
  66. aba
    0
    28 December 2014 00: 32
    Our tanks are as reliable and effective as Kalash.
  67. The comment was deleted.
  68. 0
    28 December 2014 12: 36
    Comparison of performance characteristics - fortune telling on coffee grounds. Only the battle provides a real comparison. And people fight. You can compare hardware as much as you like and the result will not be true, but the desired one.
  69. Crang
    +3
    28 December 2014 13: 16
    Strange article... The author compares two completely different cars both in design and in performance characteristics. And he comes to the conclusion that our T-90A is better. Well, let's put it this way - in the New Year's assault on Grozny in 1994, when we lost 62 tanks, what would be better, the author? T-90A or MK.4? In the Afghan war, what would be better? Each of these tanks has its own advantages and disadvantages. The advantages of the T-90A include firepower, powerful frontal armor, good mobility, reliability and ease of use. But the MK.4 is very well protected from all sides, and not just from the forehead, has advanced KAZT, and is convenient for a long stay in it. MK-4 is practically our tank. Russian Jews did it.
  70. +7
    28 December 2014 13: 17
    The Georgians and the Armenian are going in the compartment, they are silent. Georgian says: "Georgians are better than
    Armenians! "
    The Armenian is silent. The Georgian repeats: "Georgians are better than Armenians!" That again
    is silent. The Georgian again says: "Do you hear? Georgians are better than Armenians!"
    The Armenian could not stand: "What? What ??"
    Georgian: "Than, than ... I said, than the Armenians!"

    When patriotism overflows, common sense and logic rest.
    Change T90 to T34 - no one will notice.
    99% of comments are just attempts to crap on Merkava.

    If the fighters are already hitting the same point with two cornets at the same time in order to “easily” break through the Trophy.... hi
    1. +1
      28 December 2014 14: 30
      Quote: sidorshuk
      just trying to crap on Merkava.

      What does Merkava have to do with it? Especially if you remember her story bully
  71. 0
    28 December 2014 13: 39
    And Zohen Wei and our tanks are fast......[media=http//:mp3prima.com/mp3poisk/] smile
  72. 0
    28 December 2014 14: 42
    I am very confused by the price-quality criterion, this criterion is suitable for export, for poor countries. and for my dear ones, as a good song sang, “but we need one victory, one for all, we won’t stand at the price.” the main thing is that the quality is no worse than that of competitors. Well, the price... cheaper is good, more expensive... it's a pity, but the main thing is quality
  73. 0
    28 December 2014 14: 43
    If our Arab friends had ordered our tank builders a special tank for combat in urban conditions and in hot climates, then we would have cooked up something like a Merkava for them. They could increase the caliber to 152mm and have more machine guns, air conditioners, thermal imagers, and install an Arena. The only annoying thing is that the T-90 tanks made for India were better equipped than the same T-90 tanks for us.
  74. Aspirin
    -5
    28 December 2014 16: 15
    Quote: Katsin
    During the second Lebanese war, 2 merkava 4 were irretrievably lost, one after being struck with an explosive device of 100 kg under the bottom, and the second after multiple ATGM hits. In most cases, wrecked tanks returned to the unit up to 72 hours. I personally saw a tank in which the engine took over the Cornet and saved the crew. After 2 days, the tank returned to the brigade after replacing the engine. In addition, I ask you to note that then the tanks were not equipped with KAZ Vetrovka. Since 2010, all attempts to knock Merkava 4 with the help of Cornet have been unsuccessful. By the way, KAZ immediately gives out the coordinates of the firing ATGM, so this still ended sadly for some shooters. Regarding the T-90, I’ll say this: I would prefer that Egypt and the Saudis have T-90, and not Abrams


    Jews have always been masters of fooling the goyim. But cunning is not a type of intelligence.
  75. Aspirin
    -2
    28 December 2014 16: 17
    The article does not discuss fire control systems.
  76. -4
    28 December 2014 17: 04
    In the field of weapons, we can safely say that we are ahead of the rest. The same Kalashnikov assault rifle was not advertised anywhere, but the massive distribution of it throughout the world speaks for itself. Also, air defense systems, the opponents of which don’t even have analogues, in the aircraft industry, and in other areas we are not lagging behind and are in many ways superior. and the T-90 is proof of this. But there is a more advanced tank, although it is not shown yet.
  77. Orlando
    +3
    28 December 2014 17: 58
    why are you attached to the ground, in winter the rains in Israel are still the same, the mud is no worse, and maybe even better than its foreign counterparts fellow and this does not interfere with successfully completing combat missions, rumors that the MK4 will get stuck anywhere are greatly exaggerated, or rather, some comrades really want this, but this is not the case.
  78. +2
    28 December 2014 18: 26
    By the way, it’s overdue, I’m not strong on the question, but are there many road bridges and overpasses in Rus' with a carrying capacity of 50 tons. (46-48t - T-90 series)? or is it still traditionally worth focusing on routes that are circuitous from the highway and providing engineering troops with overcoming water obstacles (reconnaissance and guidance of crossings), for example.
    1. +1
      31 December 2014 03: 23
      And yes, the loader does not put the shell in the breech, it won’t hit, but puts it in the tray, then the chambering mechanism, that’s why their tanks are flightless, there’s no need for it.
  79. 0
    28 December 2014 19: 24
    Iranian army exercises (currently taking place) T-72, M-60, Zulfiqar-3, BMP-2, etc.:

    Zulfiqar - 3 large smile :
  80. The comment was deleted.
  81. Aspirin
    +1
    28 December 2014 19: 51
    How Jews fight for their cart is already hot from the minuses. laughing

    With a bunch of imported components, but still a purebred Jew. It’s not for nothing that so many Jews came from Ukraine. One cannot help but notice the similarity in mentality with the Ukrainians, who destroy a division of Russians every day. wassat
    1. The comment was deleted.
      1. 0
        29 December 2014 11: 20
        Quote: tilix
        You eat Canadian and American wheat
        Are you hallucinating? Thank God we have enough of our own, we even supply it for export...
        Quote: tilix
        do not write on a Russian computer
        I wonder if yours is purely Israeli? Or is it “made in China”?
        Quote: tilix
        you are called by a purely Russian name,
        Well, you have the same not-so-Jewish name in your profile...
        So
        Quote: tilix
        and there too. My God, what squalor
        Where is Israel heading?
        1. -1
          29 December 2014 14: 34
          Thank God I have enough
          Haven't you heard? You sell planes for meat and wheat. Argentina.
          I wonder if your language is purely Israeli
          It’s not me who argued here that if the components are not original, then the product is not original. Contact us at
          it's not a very Jewish name either
          You won’t understand my name - you need to know Hebrew.
          So I repeat,
          My God, what squalor. Where is Russia heading?
          Yes, I forgot, according to the rules of your genre laughing laughing laughing laughing laughing
          1. +1
            29 December 2014 19: 49
            Quote: tilix
            Yes, I forgot, according to the rules of your genre
            With your sclerosis, you wouldn’t be drawn into a discussion... And laughing for no reason is considered a BAD SIGN among us.
            Quote: tilix
            Haven't you heard? You sell planes for meat and wheat. Argentina.

            And what? The planes are OUR, we do what we want with them. What do you care about that?
            Quote: tilix
            Contact us at
            If sclerosis doesn't hurt, then remind him...
            Quote: tilix
            You won’t understand my name - you need to know Hebrew.
            Well then, you shouldn’t hide behind strangers... Do you think that when I hear the name Sasha, aka Alexander, I think every time that this is a Greek name meaning “protector of people” or “courageous defender”. This is where it’s appropriate to tell you: “DON’T YOU TELL”
  82. 0
    29 December 2014 00: 01
    Quote: Kars
    Was modern aviation used there?

    The question is, of course, interesting. drinks
  83. +2
    29 December 2014 06: 49
    ...and most importantly, participation in real combat operations. According to these criteria, only two vehicles will have to be compared - the Russian T-90S and the Israeli "Chariot"

    Apparently the author believes that all other tanks did not take part in the hostilities, and in Iraq, coalition tanks sat in the rear.
    There has been written about the combat use of the Merkava, but not a line about the T-90. It would be interesting to hear - where was the T-90 used in combat conditions (except for Chechnya, of course)? And it turns out that the comparison again takes place only according to the stated characteristics.
  84. The comment was deleted.
  85. 0
    29 December 2014 08: 50
    What modification is this???
    1. 0
      29 December 2014 12: 19
      Quote: Velizariy
      What modification is this???
      Very similar to the T90A, with a welded turret and a “Curtain”...
      Then the counter question is, what is this?
      1. Crang
        0
        29 December 2014 12: 41
        And this is our T-90A.
    2. Crang
      0
      29 December 2014 12: 41
      This is the T-90S Bshikhma.
      1. 0
        29 December 2014 19: 50
        Quote: Krang
        And this is our T-90A.

        Quote: Krang
        This is the T-90S Bshikhma.
        Is there an answer to my question here?
  86. +1
    29 December 2014 10: 36
    Quote: Katsin
    By the way, KAZ immediately gives out the coordinates of the ATGM that fired, so this ended sadly for some shooters. Regarding the T-90, I will say this: I would prefer that Egypt and the Saudis had T-90s rather than Abrams

    1. KAZ does not give coordinates, only a vector, and only a very approximate one.
    2. Do you prefer to meet 2 times more T-90s than Abrams? Considering that the main losses will be caused by a tank standing in ambush, the probability of running into one is 2 times greater. That's bullshit.
  87. +1
    29 December 2014 11: 29
    I read the article, it was written in a completely idiotic way. If tanks are created for different theaters of operations, why write that the T90 is better because it is better in Europe and vice versa. Nonsense. It’s just as stupid to say that the Merkava needs bridges, because they simply don’t exist THERE. Comparison of combat characteristics is also very biased. There have already been articles about the fact that the quality of our active armor is very doubtful, as is its location, and in biathlon it was clear that it was not secured well.
    I am writing this because the article is simply throwing dust in the eyes and carries MISINFORMATION. Therefore, I give it a big minus.
    1. Orlando
      +1
      29 December 2014 14: 15
      you see, praising a technique that has no analogues in the world is also a trick, it’s easier to send warring meat to slaughter with the enemy’s hats, brainwashing.
  88. Crang
    +1
    29 December 2014 11: 59
    The author also wrote that both tanks have KAZT, but in fact only the Merkava has such protection. Merkava missiles fly at a range of 8 km, while the T-90A only ranges at 5,5 km. In general, there are many nuances.
  89. -4
    29 December 2014 12: 52
    The Jews gave minuses for the article along the way... and I give +, Soviet means the best!!! soldier
    1. Crang
      0
      29 December 2014 14: 44
      Quote: renat.004
      The Jews gave cons for the article along the way...,

      Not only Jews.
      Quote: renat.004
      and I give +, Soviet means the best!!!

      This is how the Merkava MK.4 was also made by our Soviet, Russian Jews. This is also our tank. The ISs made the guys dance.
  90. +6
    29 December 2014 13: 22
    Another crazy review, no big deal.
    Level - company combat leaflet August 1986. It doesn’t reach the level of “Youth Equipment”. Comparison criteria are not defined. There are practically no numbers. The defeat statistics are one-sided. From time to time the author shouts - Russia, forward!
    The essence of the survey is that the machines are conceptually different.
    How did you even come up with the idea to compare them?
  91. 0
    29 December 2014 16: 27
    I would like to read the article - the reflection of an experienced tanker. herself . trying to compare two different vehicles, no review of ammunition systems
  92. daladin
    0
    29 December 2014 19: 08
    nice leopard tank
  93. +1
    29 December 2014 19: 39
    A chariot with a loader is nonsense in the 21st century. Tank for defense and police operations.
  94. picca2
    -1
    29 December 2014 19: 48
    Quote: atalef
    Quote: 0255
    If Israel does not recognize the loss of Merkav from the Cornets, this does not mean that there were no Merkav losses.

    An interesting conclusion
    How do you like a pun - (nothing personal. Just as an example) if you do not admit. that you belong to sexual minorities. not yet mean. that you are not
    Once again, I'm sorry, nothing personal. So . to show the absurdity of your post.


    On 18.08.06/4450/17.08.06, Michael Mass (“gmXNUMX”) published data on a meeting of armored forces veterans with Major General Haluti Ruda, Chief Officer of the Merkava Tank Development Directorate, Major General Amir Nir and with Lieutenant General Yosi Ben-Hanan. Details of the meeting were not allowed for publication, but the following was stated:
    during the battles, Hezbollah fired over 1,000 ATGMs and RPG grenades into armored vehicles (that is, not counting launches at IDF positions, such as houses), and mostly ATGMs with medium and high armor penetration;
    there were tank crews who did not feel at all during the battle that they had been hit, and discovered the hit only after stopping to rest;
    the launch/hit ratio is 25:1, i.e. only every 25th rocket or grenade hit a tank;

    In short, 1000 ATGMs were “launched” - only 40 hit... Moreover!!!!
    40 tanks were hit by ATGMs, 10 of them were penetrated...

    - Izya, do you have tea?
    - No.
    - What about coffee?
    - There is tea.
  95. +2
    30 December 2014 00: 22
    On the original source website, among the “paid” (everything is Russian - guano) comments, there was this one, I can’t judge. but interesting, I liked:
    So far, the only more or less clear arguments that have been heard are the “non-monoblock” of the T-90S and its replacement within XNUMX hours.
    1. Indeed, changing the engine is a lot of fuss. In Leopard this happens faster.
    So what? But the Russian tank’s gun changes 20 times faster than that of the Merkava or any Leopard. Anyone who has done this “in the field” will confirm.
    Why wasn't this mentioned!? Is there anywhere to read about this? Didn't Vicki write about this?
    Because it’s almost impossible to screw up the T-90S engine. And with the Merkava, this is the first thing that flies out, for example, when detonated by a landmine. The engine shakes so much that due to the “monoblock”, it falls apart, along with the transmission.
    Here in Iraq, a T-72 that was blown up by a mine, completely without oil, hobbled under its own power to a repair base (20 km for a minute) with a hole in the mechanical parts the size of a ball. Which other diesel engine can do this!? And what’s wrong with the fact that it took half the night to change the diesel engine? The tank retained its combat effectiveness and mobility.
    2. Silhouette. All Amer’s lickers never shot at a Russian tank. If this happened, they would know for sure that it would be really difficult to get in. And even more so in a moving one!
    The Americans, having taken Baghdad, fired at captured T-72s and did not even achieve 30% penetration from the vaunted M256.
    M828A2, M829A3 - they just clinked and made sparks...
    Both 72nd and 90C are quickly applied to the terrain and dig a hole for an ambush. A couple of smoke breaks and the tank is not visible. Merkava - dig in all day, it won't do any good. She's as healthy as a barn.

    3. The loader will never overtake the automatic loader! Anyone here who says otherwise is simply a fool! Anyone who has tried to shoot a shot “on the move” at least once will subscribe to my every word! Throws it so hard your collarbones crack! After a couple of such loadings, there is no talk of any speed at all. But the machine doesn’t care, it clicks like a carousel...
    The danger of detonation is a problem for all tanks, not just Russians.
    What difference does it make why the crew died, from fragments of their own armor, or from the detonation of the ammunition!? All the same, the fire will be fierce and there will be no one to pull it out.

    4. I will not argue about the sight channels and thermal imager matrices - I don’t understand this.
    But I’ll tell you a couple of real arguments: Russian cars drive any crap! If only there was some kind of fire. And at any moment - they are ready for combat, despite the fact that the same Iraqis never bothered with maintenance at all! And those same Americans, with their likings, hanged themselves every time, and not only after a dust storm, but also after a more or less strong wind!

    5. And most importantly: not a single local armchair strategist or “expert” voiced the real problem of Russian tanks - caterpillars. And any real driver will tell you how easy it is to “take off your shoes” on the T-72 and T-90. I’m not talking about the T-90S modification; I haven’t driven it.

    Summary: they talk about things they don’t know. They’re armchair soldiers.
  96. 0
    30 December 2014 05: 43
    Another SHAKKODATISM! It is necessary for PEOPLE to be PROTECTED 100%
  97. MGB
    0
    30 December 2014 14: 17
    Quote: Katsin
    Regarding the T-90, I’ll say this: I would prefer that Egypt and the Saudis have T-90, and not Abrams

    How can I understand? To make it better or worse for them?
  98. bubble82009
    0
    1 January 2015 23: 47
    what difference does it make what tank? if the crew is not ready, then the tank will be. Tank biathlon clearly showed this
  99. -1
    2 January 2015 15: 55
    I don’t remember where I read it, but a comrade who was there personally saw how the 72 OF-m removed the turret from a Merkavka!
  100. 0
    4 January 2015 00: 01
    Question???? Price. THAT. Engine and gun life???? Article plus.)