Russia needs military icebreakers

53
Russia needs military icebreakersIn March next year, in St. Petersburg, it is planned to lay down for the Navy fleet Project 21180 lead icebreaker. As an informed source in the military-industrial complex told TASS, the technical and operational design of the new order is carried out by the Admiralty Shipyards Engineering Center. It is assumed that vessels of this series will serve in the Arctic and the Far East. According to the developers, the icebreaker will have modern power equipment, propeller-driven columns, an electric drive that works on a new principle. Displacement will be 6000 tons, length - 84 m, width - 20 m, side height - 10 m. The vessel will be able to stay in autonomous navigation for up to 60 days, the maximum cruising range - 12 thousand miles.

According to experts, icebreakers can be equipped only with short-range self-defense, that is, small-caliber anti-aircraft artillery, large-caliber machine guns, which will not take up much space. The same applies to MANPADS. Perhaps install shipboard turret launcher "Bending" with more accurate guidance and high rate of fire. "If you put more powerful weaponthen it will be no icebreaker. Still, his task is to break the ice, not to cut the enemy down. ”

Already, controversy has begun in the press: “Why do we need this icebreaker?” It comes to the assertion that private foreign and domestic companies are now building container ships, tankers and other ice-class vessels that can do without icebreaking assistance.

ARCTIC BATTLE

Alas, the Arctic warming season of 2007 – 2009 has apparently ended. Moreover, in the 2010 – 2011 years, there was an unusually heavy ice situation in the Gulf of Finland and the Sea of ​​Okhotsk, which forced to send most of the icebreakers from the Arctic. In winter, the 2013 / 14 frozen the Sea of ​​Azov, and more than 60 ships were captured in ice, and more than 100 ships did not enter the Kerch Canal (not in the strait) because of the ice. I hope that the Azov Sea may freeze this year as well, they are remembered in the military ministries of the LC and the DPR. So the Northern Sea Route can not do without icebreakers.

In addition to economic, there are important military-political arguments in favor of building military icebreakers. For example, the United States still considers Wrangel Island as its own territory. True, unlike the Japanese, they are not satisfied with the noisy notions "Return our islands!". Nevertheless, de jure Wrangel Island, the Senate and the State Department consider American. Accordingly, in Ottawa, this island is considered the original Canadian territory.

In September, an English ship approached Wrangel Island in September 1921, whose commander a certain Stephenson landed troops, raised the British flag and declared the island possession of Great Britain. A small detachment was left on the island. At the end of the summer of next year, the British ship failed to approach Wrangel Island due to difficult ice conditions, and the British landed there died from scurvy.

Rumors about this came to Vladivostok. And the command of the white Siberian flotilla sent there gunboat "Magnit" to evict "enlightened navigators." However, the Magnit failed to get to the island through the ice, and in the fall, the whites took the ship to Manila, where it was sold by Admiral Starck along with the rest of the vessels of the Siberian Flotilla.

Taking advantage of anarchy in the Far East, in 1923, the British landed a new fishing party on it. To exhaust foreigners from the island and at the same time conduct a survey of the coast, in June 1924, the Soviet government decided to send a special hydrographic expedition there.

The expedition went to Wrangel Island on the gunboat "Red October" (until March 1924 - the icebreaker "Nadezhny").

19 August 1924, she reached the northeast tip of Wrangel Island. Following along the south coast to the west, the Red October approached Rogers Bay and anchored. Having landed, the members of the expedition found signs of the recent presence of people here, but did not meet them that day.

On August 20, on the cape, later called Proletarsky, the State Flag of the USSR was hoisted on a specially constructed mast in a solemn atmosphere.

During the survey, Canadians and four Eskimos were captured. After carrying out all the planned research, the 29 August cannon 1924 of the year returned to Vladivostok.

In 1926, the first Chukchi settlement was created on Wrangel Island, and G.А. was appointed the head of the island. Ushakov.

It should be noted that foreigners tried to declare not only Wrangel Island, but also Chukotka as their territory. Thus, in the autumn of 1924, a Soviet border ship in Zima Bay at Cape Puzina found a metal sign with the inscription: “The station of magnetic observation and geodetic changes of the coast of the United States. For inquiries contact Washington. For the removal of this sign - a fine of $ 250 or imprisonment. " Border guards sent this sign to Moscow, and the Americans expelled from the area. In response to this provocation, the Soviet Foreign Ministry sent a protest note to Washington saying that "the actions of American agents who forget where the territory of their state ends and the territory of a sovereign country begins will continue to be decisively stopped."

Taking advantage of the absence of a military garrison on Ratmanov Island, the Americans organized their factory in the village of Ilyuklit and within a few months took out furs, baleen and walrus tusks, until the landing from the Vorovskiy border ship threw them out.

Well, this is the case of days gone by. And now it's the 21st century. Alas, the US claims to the Russian sector of the Arctic with the onset of the new century only increased.

COLD WAR

The report of the US Arctic Research Commission (a body that develops US strategic policies on the Arctic) "The Arctic Ocean and Climate Change: Scenario for the US Navy," published in 2002, explicitly states that controversy over the Northern Sea Route becomes an important point on the agenda of Russian-American relations. “The US continues to insist that the ice-covered straits of the Northern Sea Route are international and constitute a transit transport entity; Russia continues to consider the straits as its internal waters. Most likely this will remain a controversial political issue between the United States and Russia. ” In addition, the report predicts that the problem of using the Northern Sea Route will be the subject of more serious disagreements between the US and Russia, and even conflicts. ”

Starting in the 1950s, American aircraft, including strategic bombers with atomic bombs on board, were constantly patrolling the Arctic, including our sector. Quite often, American intelligence officers were not limited to flying over Soviet territorial waters, but flew further over land.

So, on October 15 1952, the first flight over the USSR was made by two reconnaissance aircraft B-47В, created on the basis of the six-engine bomber B-47. The planes started from Yelson air base in Alaska. Above the sea, they refueled from two KC-97 tankers, and then flew over Wrangel Island, taking a picture of it. Then the aircraft headed south and flew over Eastern Siberia for several hours. Link MiGs tried to intercept them, but failed. The flight lasted 7 hour. 45 min., During this time, the scouts have traveled a distance of 5500 km, and about 1300 km - over the territory of the USSR.

Well, on May 6, 1956, six aircraft took off from Tula (northern part of Greenland), reached the North Pole and turned south, towards the borders of the USSR. They penetrated our airspace over Ambarchik and, lining up in a row, continued to fly south at an altitude of 12 thousand. M. Then the RВ-47Е turned east. All this time they photographed ground objects in our territory.

Having flown over Anadyr, the aircraft left the USSR over the Bering Strait and boarded the Yelson Air Force Base in Alaska.

1 July 1960, the American reconnaissance aircraft RВ-47Н set off for another reconnaissance flight to the shores of the Kola Peninsula. The scout was intercepted by a Soviet fighter piloted by Captain Vasily Polyakov. "MiG" went to the tail of the RВ-47Н. Someone opened fire: either a fighter or a Yankee from a tail 20-mm unit. Later, co-pilot Freeman Olmsted admitted that he had consumed two-thirds of the ammunition 20-mm installation. However, the Boeing was shot down. Of the six crew members, only two managed to escape.

American submariners feel at home at the North Pole. Photo from www.navy.milLater, a dispute arose between the USSR and the USA over whether RВ-47Н was shot down in neutral or territorial waters.

In my opinion, the actions of Captain Polyakov are legitimate in both cases. Even if the American was in neutral waters at the edge of territorial waters, then in conditions of constant invasions into the airspace of the USSR, and even close to the largest naval base, the actions of the Soviet pilot are quite legitimate. If the Soviet Tu-95 bomber tried to approach the same distance to New York, would American air defense react like that?

US military flights aviation over the Russian sector of the Arctic continue to this day.

In August, 1954, the US nuclear submarine "Nautilus" made the first trip under the ice of the Arctic. And at the beginning of the 1960-s, American submarines of the “George Washington” type, equipped with the Polaris A-1 ballistic missiles, began combat patrols in the Norwegian and Barents Seas.

By the end of the century, the firing range of Soviet and American ballistic missiles launched from submarines increased dramatically and in fact became intercontinental. In this regard, the American ballistic-missile submarines left the Arctic to the coastal waters of the Atlantic and Pacific. But Russian submarines with ballistic missiles are still patrolling in the Arctic, hoping to hide there from surface ships and aircraft of the United States and NATO. In turn, the United States and Britain constantly hold dozens of nuclear submarines-killers in the Arctic.

I note that the cold war under the ice as before 1991, and now 99,9% is hidden from the world community. So, one can only guess how much NATO junk, such as sonar buoys and tracking stations, are installed on the ice, under the ice and at the bottom of the Russian sector of the Arctic.

In order to ensure the combat activities of nuclear submarines, as well as conducting reconnaissance activities impossible by means of submarines, the Americans began to send their surface ships to the Soviet sector of the Arctic since the beginning of the 1960-s.

The US Coast Guard icebreakers were best suited for this purpose. Thus, in 1962, the icebreakers “Nord Wind” and “Burton Island” conducted a joint voyage in the Bering and Chukchi seas. In 1963, the Nord Wind icebreaker cruised in the area from the Bering Strait to Shelagsky Cape, and the Burton Island icebreaker attempted to go along the Northern Sea Route. By the strait of Dmitry Laptev, he passed into the Laptev Sea, from where he tried to break through heavy ice and pass through Vilkitsky Strait to the west. But the plans of the Americans failed: not far from Taimyr, the rudder failed on the icebreaker, and in order not to stay to spend the winter in the drifting ice, Burton Island urgently turned back.

American icebreakers and other vessels conducted oceanographic work in the East Siberian Sea and the Laptev Sea. Thus, in 1965, the Nord Wind icebreaker passed the Kara Sea and entered the Vilkitsky Strait. Here the Americans again suffered a setback: due to a breakdown of the propeller shaft, the icebreaker returned to England, where he stood for repairs. After the repair, "Nord Wind" made a second attempt to break through the Vilkitsky Strait, but was stopped by Soviet border ships near Cape Chelyuskin.

Then the Americans decided to go around the Northern Land and from the north to pass into the Laptev Sea, and again failure was waiting for them. "Nord Wind", having rounded the Arctic Cape of the Northern Land, met the pack ice of many years and came back.

And in subsequent years, the Americans did not leave their venture to pass the Northern Sea Route. The captains of the Soviet vessels periodically met icebreakers of the US Navy and the US Coast Guard on the Northern Sea Route. 26 August 1970, the icebreaker “Chelyuskin” (captain Trotsenko), following the clear water course 315 ±, in the point with the coordinates 68 ± 18 'N and 175 ± 52 'W.D. I met an icebreaker, from which a helicopter with American identification marks rose. The next day, the icebreaker “Poyarkov”, following the 130 ± course, discovered an American icebreaker in the Chukchi Sea outside the 12-mile zone, at the point with the coordinates 68 ± 44 'N and 176 ± 08 'W.D.

On the icebreaker "Nord Wind" was installed an infrared camera with lenses with a diameter of 16 inches, designed to photograph the coastline of the USSR. Following the course parallel to the coast, the icebreaker conducted a survey of our coast with the definition of the location of objects on it, that is, led the so-called photogrammetry. The crew of the icebreaker included surveyors, whose task was professional photography of the coastline.

Every year, American icebreakers entered the Chukchi Sea in the area of ​​the Long Strait. Moving along the edge of the ice, they watched the movement of Soviet ships and the flights of aircraft, thus hoping to calculate the location of Soviet national economic, and most importantly, military facilities.

In addition to military icebreakers, warships of other classes periodically invaded the Soviet sector of the Arctic and even our territorial waters. So, in 1976, the English frigate "Berwick" violated the maritime border near the throat of the White Sea.

ALL THE SAME AND GREEN

Recently, the United States is planning to create in the oceans huge floating bases from the combined two or more huge ships. As elements of such bases, it is planned to use large container ships and aircraft carriers withdrawn from service, for example, Constelleishin, Kitty Hawk, etc.

Single vessels have already been tested as small floating bases, including the aircraft carrier Kitty Hawk, the dry-cargo vessel Kragside (with a displacement of 21 thousand tons).

On large floating bases will be based small and medium landing craft and aircraft of all classes, including the largest military transport aircraft. One of these bases the United States plans to deploy in the Barents Sea in close proximity to the shores of Russia.

In the Russian sector of the Arctic, not only ships of the United States and England, but even small NATO countries, climb. Thus, since 1966, three icebreaking-class reconnaissance vessels with the same name “Mariyatta” have been successively built in Norway. Not a single missile firing of the Northern Fleet was complete without the presence of the Mashka. Once during the P-35 Mashka coastal firing, the Mashka dodged the ships that drove it out for so long that, eventually, one of the minesweepers went back under its own missile. Although the P-35 had only an inert warhead, six were killed on the minesweeper. That would be to make admirals' comrades look into the eyes of their children, widows, and explain how their fathers and husbands died, defending NATO spies with their breasts.

The latter “Mariyatta” created serious interference with the rise of the submarine “Kursk”. This Mariyatta was built in 1995 year. Its displacement is about 8 thousand tons, like a cruiser. In fact, this is an icebreaker, equipped with a large helipad. Superstructures "Mariyatty" covered with forest antennas. Naturally, their purpose, as well as the weapons hidden under the deck, is top secret. Mariatta is based in the port of Kirkenes a few dozen kilometers from the Russian border and goes to the Russian Arctic for a month or more up to nine times a year.

In the autumn of 2010, an order was issued for the construction of an even more powerful ice-class reconnaissance vessel.

It is unlikely that the State Department will explicitly declare the Russian sector of the Arctic as its original territory. To do this, there is a US-controlled Greenpeace.

These brave guys seem to have good intentions towards the Russian Federation - “Greenpeace and millions of our supporters are in favor of imparting protection status to the territory around the North Pole. This area has a total area of ​​approximately 2,8 million square meters. km is outside the so-called exclusive economic zones (EEZ) of the Arctic coastal states, and today does not belong to any national or international jurisdiction.

The status of the international protected natural area for the North Pole does not pose any threat or economic loss for Russia.

The creation of a protected area will allow the zone to be closed for nuclear weapons and other military presence, and thus will prevent the “arctic” arms race, which is terrible for the economy.

Alas, no one tells us who will carry the protection of the protected area. Greenpeace or US Navy?

How will guard ships get there? Through the Russian waters? Through our Northern Sea Route?

The Arctic will introduce a closed zone for nuclear weapons. Will American nuclear-powered submarines with ballistic missiles remain in the impenetrable zones of air defense and anti-aircraft missiles at the west and east coast of the United States?

And where to go to our missile submarines? Back in 1980, the Soviet leaders proposed to the United States on a parity basis to create a safe patrol zone for missile submarines. As the Americans rested then, so now they are against safe zones. Let Russia withdraw its nuclear fleet from the Arctic and disarm.

Is it worth seriously considering the crazy plans of a bunch of mad guys and girls? Alas, it is worth.

13 March 2014 The European Parliament adopted a resolution calling for the creation of a protected area around the North Pole. The resolution actually repeats the requirements of the Greenpeace Arctic campaign.

The European Parliament calls for maintaining water area of ​​2,8 million square meters. km, not currently owned by any of the countries to protect it from commercial fishing and the development of mineral resources. Today she has no protection status.

Thus, the European Parliament took and snapped off most of its Arctic sector from Russia, which has been our de facto for almost 90 years.

So why all the countries of the world, including the USA, Canada, Japan and Norway, need powerful military icebreakers, but Russia does not?

WITH WEAPON ON BOARD

And since we will have military icebreakers, we must also think about their weapons. The chatter about MANPADS and large-caliber machine guns will be left to the masculine experts, while we turn ourselves to stories.

Here, for example, armament of Soviet arctic icebreakers at the end of World War II: “Stalin”: 4 – 100-mm installations B-34, 7-37-mm 70К, 13 – 20-mm “Oerlikon”, 2 – 12,7- mm DShK. Mikoyan: 3 – 75-mm, 10 – 20-mm Oerlikon, four quadruple Browings; Kaganovich: 4 – 130-mm B-13, 7 – 85-mm 52K, 6 – 37-mm 61K, 12 – 20-mm Oerlikon.

10 August 1964, the Central Committee of the CPSU and the USSR Council of Ministers issued a joint Resolution No. 680 – 280 on the creation of similar disguised missile carriers in the USSR. By order of the Navy Commander in Chief for 27 February 1965, the project was given the name "Scorpion".

On the basis of the UR-100 intercontinental ballistic missile, Chelomey designed the D-8 missile system with the UR-100М missile. However, the Navy leadership recognized the D-9 complex with the P-29 missiles more appropriate.

The D-9 complex includes eight P-29 ballistic missiles. They were stored with a five-minute readiness for launching fully equipped and loaded fuel components in the vertical mines unified with the submarines of the 667 project of the 4C-75 launchers. The possibility of finding missiles on the ship for six months was envisaged.

The ice-going transport vessels of the 550 project (of the “Aguema” type), mass-produced at that time in Komsomolsk-on-Amur and in Kherson, were chosen as the carrier.

These vessels with an 8700 t deadweight had an icebreaking hull shape, a propeller with removable blades and a diesel-electric power plant, which allowed them to work autonomously on the Northern Sea Route.

However, for a variety of reasons, mainly of a political nature, the project of the Arctic missile carrier was not implemented.

Few people know that according to the project, all Soviet nuclear-powered icebreakers were supposed to carry artillery in wartime or a threatened period. Thus, the nuclear-powered icebreaker "Lenin" was equipped with a foundation, cellars and other equipment for the quadruple 45-mm automata CM-20-ZIF1.

At the beginning of 1975, the greatest scandal broke out in Agitprop. On the cover of the magazine "Spark" was a large photo of the icebreaker "Arctic". Everything would be fine, but everyone there lovers saw the AK-726 art photo installation. Indeed, the mobilization armament of the Arktika icebreakers provided for two twin 76-mm AK-726 installations and four six-barreled AK-630 installations. With this weapon "Arctic" and passed state tests.

In my opinion, universal mine installations, like on American destroyers, would have become the ideal armament of the new military icebreaker. Both cruise anti-ship missiles and long-range anti-aircraft missiles can be placed there.

Well, of course, we need at least one artillery system with a caliber of at least 100 mm and a pair of Palashi. Let's not forget that an atomic icebreaker will often have to be in a single voyage. Covering it with escort vessels, such as the TFR, in Arctic waters is very problematic.

And how much will it cost Russia to build a series of military icebreakers? I think no more than ambitious projects of restructuring the Kremlin and the center of Moscow.

It should not be forgotten that the Trans-Siberian Railway and the Dobroflot shipping company were established and controlled by the state. In general, they did not pay off before 1917, but it was thanks to them that the Far East and Eastern Siberia remained in the Russian State.
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  1. +14
    21 December 2014 06: 21
    Undoubtedly, nuclear atomic icebreakers are vital for us, especially in light of the well-known events -

    Denmark Aims on Arctic Shelf

    http://www.ng.ru/world/2014-12-16/1_dania.html

    -... At the beginning of the 1975 year in Agitprop a tremendous scandal erupted. A large photo of the Arctic icebreaker was placed on the cover of Ogonyok magazine ... belay

    This misconception has spread very strongly on the network, and all due to the fact that the entire series of icebreakers is called - "Arctic". Now many do not remember, or simply do not know, but the scandal was caused by the photo of the nuclear icebreaker "Russia! It is symbolic from the perspective of current affairs, isn't it?"

    Here is the picture. bully hi
    1. +5
      21 December 2014 09: 43
      At the end of December 2013, the Director General of Rosatom S. V. Kiriyenko signed an order to restore the Sevmorput nuclear-powered container lighter carrier [9]. It is planned to carry out work to extend the life of a nuclear installation, to purchase and load a set of nuclear fuel [1]. Commissioning of the vessel is expected on March 1, 2016, after the restoration of Sevmorput, it will be engaged in providing the Northern Delivery, developing the shelf and developing the Pavlovsky deposit of lead-zinc ores in Novaya Zemlya. According to Vyacheslav Ruksha, “The ship will be in demand, today we don’t have ships of this class, and we expect about ten years of its operation”


      It is possible to build ice-class aircraft carriers
      1. +4
        21 December 2014 10: 01
        From horseradish ears to all comers, to profit from our territories in the Arctic, and new military icebreakers, of course, will strengthen our military group in the Arctic.
        1. 0
          22 December 2014 03: 11
          In fact, we already have all the icebreakers military (the installation of combat modules is provided), but it would not hurt to put new ones on a block of nuclear missiles (like on submarines), and a block C-300 or C-350 or C-400 just in case fireman (pieces 30-40). Excess mass on the icebreaker does not interfere, but on the contrary, it’s easier to break the ice, and we have additional protection :)
      2. The comment was deleted.
    2. +3
      21 December 2014 16: 48
      They were in the Navy! I served on an icebreaker of project 97P in the Pacific Fleet in Kamchatka. Similar icebreakers were on the Northern Fleet and at the border units. In my opinion, this project was created for the border guards - a patrol icebreaker. We did not stand idle. In winter, boats were accompanied, in summer in the north. We had one more icebreaker in the auxiliary vessels department - "Vyuga" - of Finnish construction. With me, in 1977, a military crew was removed from it and made civilian, but as part of the Navy. Sometimes almost all TF icebreakers gathered in Chukotka - "ours -" Ivan Susanin "," Blizzard "," Blizzard "," Erofei Khabarov ", and I still don't remember the names. Now some are still in service, probably there is nothing to replace, despite the fact that they are 35-40 years old Icebreakers are needed! It's time to update them!
      1. 0
        21 December 2014 18: 48
        IMHO is pointless to update, it is necessary to do new modern ones with regular places for the installation of weapons.
        In addition to anti-aircraft, it is still very good to put anti-submarine systems, and helicopters will fit in perfectly there.
      2. 0
        22 December 2014 21: 19
        And how much will it cost Russia to build a series of military icebreakers? I think no more than ambitious projects of restructuring the Kremlin and the center of Moscow.
    3. +1
      21 December 2014 16: 52
      Quote: Karlsonn
      the whole series of icebreakers is called "Arctic"

      Icebreakers of the "Arktika" series - "Arktika", "Siberia", "Russia", "Soviet Union", "Yamal".
      1. sv100year
        +1
        21 December 2014 18: 37
        and "50 years of victory"? the same type of "arctic"! slightly modernized, but still from the same series.
  2. Fedya
    0
    21 December 2014 07: 12
    For the North, such icebreakers would do well to have a couple of helicopters! Both for reconnaissance and for landing would be useful! Well, for example, MI-35.
    1. +6
      21 December 2014 07: 45
      Quote: Fedya
      For the North, such icebreakers would do well to have a couple of helicopters!


      The icebreakers of the "Arktika" series are routinely equipped with an all-weather helicopter K-32, for which these icebreakers have a helipad, a hangar, and the crew includes people serving all this "gimp".

      But certainly a military nuclear icebreaker should be equipped with several military helicopters and drones, since there is room for them in the Arktika series.

      In the photo "50 years of Victory" in the expedition to the land of Franz Joseph.
    2. Cat
      0
      21 December 2014 15: 45
      Mi make good land helicopters. Mi35 is probably even bigger for an icebreaker. The best option is Ka32.
      1. 0
        21 December 2014 17: 00
        Quote: Kotischa
        The best option is Ka32.

        The Ka-32A multi-purpose helicopter is unparalleled in its class for the transportation of goods weighing up to 5000 kg on an external sling, lifting them from high-altitude platforms at the level of 2500 meters. The helicopter holds the world record with a maximum height of 8,215 m in horizontal flight. The Ka-32A is designed to carry people (up to 13 people) and cargo (up to 4200 kg) inside the cabin. The Ka-32A11BC helicopter is the only one in Russia that has a western (Canadian) certificate of airworthiness according to FAR standards.
  3. +5
    21 December 2014 07: 36
    In general, it is necessary to build a division of icebreaker destroyers.
    1. +4
      21 December 2014 08: 54
      Quote: Dart2027
      In general, it is necessary to build a division of icebreaker destroyers.


      And each one had a company of fighting bears, the benefit is already there, though only with brown, but I think we’ll get used to the whites too. soldier

      in the photo - A sailor of the Black Sea Fleet guards cruiser of the 815 project “Red Caucasus” (until December 14 of the 1926 of the year - “Admiral Lazarev”) with a ship’s pet on the background of the 100-mm twin-weapon twin-mount marine anti-aircraft installation of the Minisini system.
      1. +9
        21 December 2014 08: 57
        Northern Fleet in 1943 or 1944 The names of the hamsters are Mishka and Masha.
      2. avt
        0
        21 December 2014 11: 07
        Quote: Dart2027
        In general, it is necessary to build a division of icebreaker destroyers.

        Quote: Karlsonn
        And each one had a company of fighting bears,

        And the reconnaissance battalion of foxes - fighters. wassatFor guidance full 3,14 ...
    2. avt
      -3
      21 December 2014 10: 31
      Quote: Dart2027
      In general, it is necessary to build a division of icebreaker destroyers.

      wassat “Ostap suffered" in the sense of Shirokorad. Why this heading then - "Russia needs military icebreakers" ???? What nonsense ??? Then what - "military ice axes", behind them, "military ice cutters"? Would write an article better on the capabilities of the ice-class ships included in the project for armament in the conditions of mobilization time. Yes, since Soviet times, the armament of icebreakers was envisaged, without any declaration of them "military" - he discovered America! In general, Shirokorad began as an amateur, in a good sense of the word, artillery. A normal fan, well, he would give a retrospective on ships from "Ermak" on the "Arctic" - on what projects and what they were actually going to put on and what the same Yankes had. But now he is just a "military analyst" and grabs at everything at once and nothing in particular, he gives out glitches about mines on icebreakers ...
      Quote: Civil
      It is possible to build ice-class aircraft carriers

      From a lighter carrier aircraft carrier? wassat And can he be what he was designed and worked for - practically a landing ship for unloading on a not very and simply unequipped shore? It is a pity that the Kosygins have been lost! negative Kosygin himself is in the auxiliary NAVY USA. Another is somewhere in Italy rotting for debts, the others seem to have already been cut. negative Not "market" ponimash turned out to be!
      1. +2
        21 December 2014 11: 02
        Quote: avt
        ... Why is this heading then - "Russia needs military icebreakers" ???? What nonsense ??? Then what - "military ice axes", followed by "military ice cutters"?


        Military bases have already appeared and will still appear; icebreakers will carry out their supply. So fig a civilian to drive? They will have tasks cut above the roof so soon.

        Quote: avt
        Would write better an article about the possibilities for armament in the conditions of mobilization time included in the project of ice-class ships. Yes, since Soviet times, the armament of icebreakers was provided, without any declaration of them "military" - opened America!


        This has already been said a hundred times in VO, even I feel somewhere pictures clung where weapons are installed, where ammunition is stored.

        Quote: avt
        Eh! It is a pity that the Kosygins have been lost!


        I agree. crying
        1. avt
          +1
          21 December 2014 11: 29
          Quote: Karlsonn
          s. So fig a civilian to drive?

          Yes ! This is a strong argument. If it is not painted gray and there is no crew in uniform and a civilian flag, then it certainly cannot be a supplier - he will not observe the "military tayu". wassat But what about the boats, nuclear civilian vessels, and even not so much under the flag - they are generally foreign, they carry around for repairs and disposal. This is where the FSB looks then? wassat
          Quote: Karlsonn
          They will have tasks cut above the roof so soon.

          Quote: man in the street
          They, as I understand it. They don’t stand without work, they also work.

          Yeah - with atomic icebreakers to the North Pole to carry tourists that would be something to maintain. laughing
          Quote: man in the street
          . That is, an application is made in 2-3 months, a work schedule is agreed. They, as I understand it. They don’t stand without work, they also work. Now imagine a non-standard situation, an urgent exit is needed, but there are no icebreakers, everything is in operation. So what?

          And nothing . Didn’t they notice or missed what actually and why it was created under which they liberated the building of the High Command of the Ground Forces on Frunze Embankment in Moscow? Take an interest and find the answer to your question.
          Quote: Karlsonn
          somewhere pictures clung where weapons are installed, where ammunition is stored.

          Yes, I have it on "paper" smile
      2. 0
        21 December 2014 11: 05
        Quote: avt
        Russia needs military icebreakers

        Because Russia needs funds to protect its territories in the Arctic, and for this, ships capable of operating in local conditions are needed. Judging by the open information, there will be an active section of spheres of influence.
        Quote: avt
        Yes, since Soviet times, the armament of icebreakers was provided, without any declaration of them "military"

        In principle, it is impossible to convert a civilian ship into a full-fledged combat ship - this will require a complete redevelopment of the entire saturation, so that one hull will remain. In essence, this is the same as building from scratch. If you just put a couple of cannons on it, then it will be a "floating coffin" that can only fight off motor boats.
        1. 0
          21 December 2014 19: 31
          I agree! After all, no one is surprised by the need for an armored personnel carrier and the fact that the Gazelka, with the same formal capacity, will clearly not replace it! Another thing is that in the USSR a lot of civilian products were developed with the possibility of military conversion. For example, the PAZ bus quite had a hatch in the stern for loading the wounded; until recently, all reserved seat carriages had attachment slots for hanging straps or stretchers - for quick conversion into an ambulance. About UAZ cars and motorcycles "Ural" - generally a common place ... But! There is no doubt that the equipment of a sea vessel is a very complicated matter, much more complicated than a railway carriage or something else. Places for the installation of at least anti-aircraft installations and large-caliber machine guns already require reinforcement of the structure, and it would also be nice to have places for elevators with ammunition supply, I'm not talking about military-style guidance and communication systems ... Another thing is that deverification is more reasonable here. For example, the destroyer URO cannot be converted into an icebreaker, but some rescue ship or a large tug is much simpler, and on the basis of an icebreaking dry cargo ship there is quite a prospect for creating a floating base or a landing ship ... ...
          I think the ambush is fundamental in one thing, civilian, merchant ships and military always have significant differences: a civilian ship will never be a navigable ship of any kind, but a military ship will never be convenient and cost-effective, from the point of view of commercial operation, of course. It’s the same as carrying passengers on a Tu-22 or bombing from a Yak-42 or Tu-154 ...
          1. 0
            21 December 2014 22: 39
            Quote: Aqela
            a civilian ship will never be a navigable ship of any kind, but a military ship will never be convenient and cost-effective

            At the institute we were told how in the merchant fleet they were tormented with ships tuned according to military technologies.
            Quote: Aqela
            URO destroyer can not be converted into an icebreaker

            Why? You can design if there would be an order.
      3. +2
        21 December 2014 11: 12
        Quote: avt
        Why is this headline then - "Russia needs military icebreakers" ????

        Maybe it means that the Navy needs its own icebreakers? Now civilian icebreakers are involved in escorting warships in the Arctic. That is, an application is made in 2-3 months, a work schedule is agreed. They are, as I understand it. do not stand without work, they also work. Now imagine, a non-standard situation, an urgent exit is needed, but there are no escort icebreakers, everything is at work. So what? For this, at least one icebreaker is needed in the Northern Fleet and the Pacific Fleet. And since the Andreev flag, then the armament should not be for the "threatened period", but permanent. And the means of detection are appropriate.
        1. avt
          -1
          21 December 2014 11: 55
          Quote: man in the street
          Maybe it means that the Navy needs its icebreakers?

          The military analyst Shirokorad himself did not understand what this means, because he speaks of highly specialized ships intended for escorting other ships and warships in very specific ice conditions - icebreakers, as you can see, at least in the reference book, at least in the dictionary, but where then in the brain he confuses them with warships with the so-called "ice class" and the higher this is, the narrower the circle of water space for the effective use of such ships, namely only in the Arctic and Antarctic regions, in the latter it is generally forbidden to appear with weapons without violating international contracts.
        2. 0
          21 December 2014 20: 32
          An icebreaker, if you do not call him an icebreaker, a worker in the northern seas, these vessels are urgently needed in the far north.
      4. 0
        21 December 2014 19: 14
        It turns out, in your opinion, and military boots - a thing not needed? And winter jackets need to be purchased by Adidas?
        1. avt
          0
          21 December 2014 20: 22
          Quote: Aqela
          It turns out, in your opinion, and military boots - a thing not needed? And winter jackets need to be purchased by Adidas?

          In my opinion, the following comes out: firstly, we need to call things by their proper names, especially for military analysts, namely, there is a class of ships for navigating other ships in the ice - icebreakers, which are now quite good and in good numbers build new ones of different displacement and there are combat ships with the so-called ice class for work in very specific ice conditions.Secondly, ice-class warships have very specific properties that are not too necessary for them in other conditions and even lower their characteristics.Well, thirdly, as the MULTI-YEAR experience of the USSR and Nowadays in Russia, the presence of such ships is not required en masse, they are mainly used by the maritime border troops, which the FSB also ordered for themselves in the quantities they need, and the Navy is quite happy with the help of icebreakers as auxiliary ships capable of carrying weapons during the mobilization period, usually defensive. fourth - if you really implement the glitches of Shirokorad - the country will not have enough money for a boat with troit, but only these squadrons of "military icebreakers", which are probably in the glitches of the "military analyst", will be cut through the Arctic by a 30 nodal passage and in the form of stealth fool
  4. +4
    21 December 2014 09: 12
    There can be no two opinions on this issue, Russia needs the Arctic, and the Arctic needs powerful icebreakers and the more the better.
  5. +3
    21 December 2014 09: 29
    Yes, it would be wise to place rocket mines, at least 12 pieces, but anti-aircraft and artillery systems are simply necessary.
    1. +4
      21 December 2014 10: 25
      Is this for sure an icebreaker?

      Shoals of the icebreaker as a cruiser:
      - architecture, the sense of your anti-aircraft systems if it's just dead iron? To make it come to life radars are needed. Question what? A rotary Frigate-M radar may fail in harsh conditions, and harsh conditions are the norm for an icebreaker. Canvases - they will require the restructuring of architecture under the tower. There are no light radars of the Talesovsky type. And buy will not work.

      - all this applies to weapons. For example, in Vladik now the destroyer is standing. Is he combat ready? And this is only a day of assholes on the way, for an icebreaker, such conditions will be the norm on the route.

      - the volumes under armament are serious, the 1 cube of weapons accounts for the 3-4 cube serving this weapon. Again, is it an icebreaker or a cruiser?


      No weapons are needed, especially on a nuclear submarine, Bending, AK-630M / Broadsword. But not more. If you press on, you can load the caliber in containers.
      1. +1
        21 December 2014 11: 09
        Quote: donavi49
        Shoals of the icebreaker as a cruiser:
        - architecture, the sense of your anti-aircraft systems if it's just dead iron? To make it come to life radars are needed. Question what? A rotary Frigate-M radar may fail in harsh conditions, and harsh conditions are the norm for an icebreaker.


        You see, do not remember this article here - http://topwar.ru/38280-amerikanskie-proekti-sistem-podderzhki-morskih-desantov.h

        tml

        and you complicate everything too much, you can "suck" anything you want - there would be a desire.

        1. 0
          21 December 2014 19: 41
          That is why they and the Americans - the whole reckoning is clearly not for work in the Polar region: there are no communication systems, power supply, ensuring normal fire control, and the self-propelled gun will be cold. If you bring communications, then the best available option is the battleship Missouri ... or some kind of floating battery, gunboat ... whatever you call it, but - the target ship. Well, at least crack it, a normal armored boat will still be better than a fishing boat with a machine gun tied with wire to the side ...
      2. TECHNOLOGY
        0
        22 December 2014 00: 19
        In the photo, a South Korean is visiting Vladik. One is not clear, why doesn’t the ice break off. Do they want Overkil?
  6. +3
    21 December 2014 09: 33
    If we decided to master the Arctic, then it should be protected by modern ships. Ice class ships.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. +3
      21 December 2014 09: 58
      We have already mastered it for 500 years. The first to explore America and Antarctica. It’s now that the mouths of the Arctic have been opened because oil was discovered there.
      1. 0
        21 December 2014 19: 46
        Oh! And about 500 years - not too much? Nevertheless, the visits of fishing lodges and longboats in the 16th century have little in common with targeted state policy, which began with the expeditions of Vitus Bering and other glorious geographers with military shoulder straps ...
        I allow myself a quote from Wikipedia:
        Beginning of the Second Kamchatka Expedition [edit | edit wiki text]
        Returning to Petersburg in 1730 from the First Kamchatka Expedition, Vitus Bering presented memoranda in which he expressed confidence in America’s comparative proximity to Kamchatka and in the expediency of establishing trade with the inhabitants of America. Having traveled twice across all of Siberia, he was convinced that iron ore, salt and bread could be mined here. Bering put forward further plans for exploring the northeast coast of Russian Asia, exploring the sea route to the mouth of the Amur and the Japanese Islands - as well as to the American continent.
        In 1733, Bering was commissioned to lead the Second Kamchatka Expedition. Vitus Bering and Aleksey Chirikov were supposed to cross Siberia and head from Kamchatka to North America to explore its coast. Martin Spanberg was commissioned to complete the mapping of the Kuril Islands and find the sea route to Japan. At the same time, several detachments were to map the north and north-east coast of Russia from Pechora to Chukotka.
        At the beginning of 1734, Bering went from Tobolsk to Yakutsk, where he then spent another three years, preparing food and equipment for the expedition. Both here and later in Okhotsk he had to overcome the inaction and resistance of local authorities, who did not want to help organize the expedition.
        Only in the autumn of 1740 did two packet boats, “Saint Peter” and “Saint Paul”, leave Okhotsk to the east coast of Kamchatka. Here, in the region of Avacha Bay, the expedition wintered in a bay named Petropavlovskaya in honor of the expedition ships. A settlement was laid here, from which the capital of Kamchatka, the city of Petropavlovsk-Kamchatsky, began its history.

        That is, no 500 years, a maximum of 400, or rather - 380.
  7. +3
    21 December 2014 10: 02
    "... In my opinion, universal silo installations would be the ideal armament for the new military icebreaker ... Both anti-ship cruise missiles and long-range anti-aircraft missiles can be placed there. Well ... you need at least one artillery system with a caliber of at least 100 mm and a couple of Broadswords ... "
    I agree with the author. Universal container installations of a single layout for placement on various media + artillery weapons.
    And machine guns ... they only fight off bears.
    1. Herr tur
      0
      21 December 2014 23: 58
      If you put rockets on the icebreaker, they will treat it like a cruiser and send it to the bottom, or let it be in those areas of the sea where the missiles do not reach.
      Missiles can also be attached to passenger aircraft, but not everyone will like it.
  8. +2
    21 December 2014 10: 10
    In theory, a step in the construction of military icebreakers is at least one of the necessary elements of comprehensive security for our country. With the construction of icebreakers of this class, not only security issues, but also the issues of ensuring the appropriate infrastructure will be solved. The more developed the infrastructure, the greater the potential for development this region.
  9. 0
    21 December 2014 10: 15
    There may also be an underwater iceberg. They are made with the support of Aker Arctic Technology and at the facilities of Arctech Helsinki Shipyard with the active involvement of the Finnish side. This is normal, the USSR did the same at the same enterprises. But now Vyartsila began to impose sanctions in the direction of the Navy. Who knows what will happen next?

    The Baltics


    Linear 21900M there will be three of them




    Only the top three atomic will be relatively domestic.
    1. -1
      21 December 2014 21: 59
      Quote: donavi49
      Dip the gauge in containers.

      "It was decided to lay an icebreaker for the Navy in St. Petersburg in early spring"
      21900M 'Vladivostok'
      21900m linear diesel-electric icebreaker
    2. The comment was deleted.
  10. +2
    21 December 2014 11: 12
    The department of Sergei Shoigu decided to equip the Russian Navy with its own icebreakers.
    1. avt
      0
      21 December 2014 11: 31
      Quote: MolGro
      The department of Sergei Shoigu decided to equip the Russian Navy with its own icebreakers.

      Like Shoigu wrote an article under the pseudonym "Shirokorad" !? wassat
      1. 0
        23 December 2014 18: 55
        Quote: avt
        Like Shoigu wrote an article under the pseudonym "Shirokorad"

        No ... Alexander Shirokorad is a well-known publicist who specializes in the history of Russian artillery.
  11. Cat
    +4
    21 December 2014 16: 15
    The guys stop arguing and pouring from empty to empty. Military icebreakers are needed, moreover, with modern weapons, reservations with the ability to support the landing and provide air defense and anti-aircraft defense of both themselves and the convoy’s box. Moreover, the northern and Pacific fleets should have all the ships of high ice class. But you must remember that the icebreaking underwater part will not allow you to have a high surface speed, as well as be a stable platform for helicopters and aircraft. There are pros and cons. On like a fire support ship, escort and landing icebreakers just right.
    I'll give you another idea, how do you feel about submarines of the ice class.
    1. +2
      21 December 2014 16: 28
      Quote: Kotischa
      I'll give you another idea how you feel about ice class submarines

      The submarines have long been swimming under the ice.
      1. +1
        21 December 2014 23: 29
        Quote: Dart2027
        The submarines have long been swimming under the ice.
        They sail, but the boats of Project 941 "Akula" were adapted, namely, for the Arctic. To make it possible to be on duty in the northern latitudes (almost to the north pole), the fencing fence is made very strong (reinforced at the base) with the ability to break ice, the thickness of which is from 2 to 2,5 meters (in winter, the thickness of ice in the Arctic Ocean can be from 1,2 to 2 meters, sometimes it reaches 2,5 meters). From below, the surface of the ice is formed by growths in the form of icicles or stalactites having rather large sizes. During ascent on the boat, the nasal rudders are removed, and she herself is pressed to the ice layer by a specially adapted nose and deckhouse, then the main ballast tank is abruptly purged. It was also planned to re-equip the boats with "under-ice" rockets. The development of a new improved version of the R-39UTT Bark rocket was launched after the adoption of a government decree in 1986. On a new modification of the rocket, it was planned to implement a system for passing through ice, as well as increase the range to 10 000 km. According to the plan, it was necessary to rearm the missile carriers before the 2003 of the year by the time the guarantee resource for the R-39 missiles expired. The boats had many progressive solutions, in particular, in terms of survivability, low noise and comfort for the crew. The Americans were especially worried about these boats, a lot of efforts were made to destroy them, including through the media, about the "noise" and that they "could not fit" in the sea. The large size of the missile silos allowed the use of other missiles, instead of the R-39, but, again, "thanks" to our caring fools and traitors ... Expensive, it doesn't make sense ...
    2. 0
      21 December 2014 19: 55
      I will also say that the icebreaker, during its work, like a woodpecker, threshes on ice floes, I think that it shakes fairly, and such things are not in favor either for electronics or for highly sensitive optics ... It seems that the "Kortik" is the very thing and nothing more.
      By the way, the Bakhcha combat module looks very interesting here during the construction of river armored boats or re-equipment, the rapid conversion of civilian ships ... In general, recent Russian developments in this regard are seriously impressive ... Self-sufficient anti-aircraft, artillery, missile modules ... can be put on any barge, wagon, cargo container ...
      1. Cat
        0
        21 December 2014 21: 46
        And if you break ice not from top to bottom, but from bottom to top. In a semi-submerged state, such an ice cutter takes up ice from below and will not receive a fraction of that vibrational force load on the hull. Perhaps this ship will be able to arm more with a high-quality complex, both offensive and defensive.
  12. +2
    21 December 2014 16: 44
    Quote: Civil
    It is possible to build ice-class aircraft carriers

    Great idea! Ice-class aircraft carrier with increased armor protection.
    Quote: Fedya
    For the North, such icebreakers would do well to have a couple of helicopters! Both for reconnaissance and for landing would be useful! Well, for example, MI-35.
    Why is the MI-35 expensive, for the Mistrals, the Aligators have already been built, and put them on the icebreakers.
    1. 0
      21 December 2014 19: 59
      good Moreover, the Kamov helicopters better endure the vicissitudes of sea weather, and the "turntables" intended for the Mistrals are most likely already adapted to the maritime climate (landing on swinging decks in gusty winds in wet weather and with an increased risk of corrosion from sea spray water...) soldier
  13. 0
    21 December 2014 17: 03
    Once we’ve gathered to return to the Arctic and explore it further - there’s no way without icebreakers!
  14. +1
    21 December 2014 17: 48
    Quote: avt
    Why is this heading - "Russia needs military icebreakers" ???? What nonsense ??? Then what - "military ice axes", behind them, "military ice cutters"? Would write an article about the ice ships included in the project class of capabilities for armament in the conditions of mobilization. Yes, since Soviet times, it was provided for the armament of icebreakers, without any declaration of them "military" - opened America!


    The time has come, and now we really need military icebreakers of a special construction.
    Project 97P.
    The lead "Ivan Susanin" was commissioned to the Navy in 1973, and in 1974 the naval units of the frontier troops received the first such ship "Iceberg".
    In total, 8 such ships were built at the Admiralty Plant in Leningrad.
    The ships were built to control the Arctic economic zone and drive out "accidental" guests from the USA and Canada.
    Total displacement - 3710 t.
    Speed ​​14 knots.
    Cruising range 6000 miles.
    4800 hp twin-screw diesel-electric power plant
    Crew 123 man.
    autonomy 50 day.
    The ship had a runway for the Ka-25 helicopter.
    Armament - double-barrel 76-mm AK-726, two 30-mm automatic AK-630.
    1. 0
      21 December 2014 20: 02
      To paraphrase the statement from "Operation Y",
      Everything has already been invented before us!

      smile
  15. Cat
    0
    21 December 2014 21: 37
    At the expense of the submarine arctic fleet Underwater cruisers Shark (Typhoon) are launched for scrapping. Why not use them as transport and landing ships. For instance.
  16. 0
    21 December 2014 22: 51
    Well, such news like we were going to cut ice

    The engineers of the Schwabe holding created a new laser complex for cutting ice layers. After testing, the complex is planned to be installed on icebreakers - it will "notch" ice on the routes of ships, as well as ice moving to oil and gas platforms, thereby facilitating its further crushing.
    In 2013, at the International Salon of Inventions in Geneva, this project was awarded the Gold Medal. The project is considered very promising and relevant, the company said in a press release.
    1. 0
      23 December 2014 18: 59
      Quote: bmv04636
      Well, such news like we were going to cut ice

      This is what kind of energy consumption is needed. Plus laser heating ... IMHO they had nothing to do there, and they decided to get a couple of patents.
  17. Herr tur
    0
    21 December 2014 22: 57
    The best military icebreaker is the battleship (cruiser) of the Stalingrad type. It is strange that Shirokorad did not remember about them - an icebreaking hull, 12 inch cannons, power 4 times higher than the Arctic, basing was planned at the mouths of the Yenisei and Ob. Only they were not allowed to finish building - the head case was used as a target.
    The most reasonable thing is to combine the on-duty topics (icebreaker, ekranoplan, hypersound) in one article and the device - a hypersonic ekranoplan with an atomic reactor ... if the monster flies at a speed of 5M at a height of 15 m, then the ice under it will be crushed by a ballistic wave. Moreover, this already happened - in the early 60s, the American SLAM cruise missile with a nuclear reactor and 3M at low altitude. Make more and drive constantly from Novaya Zemlya to Anadyr - there will be a corridor in the ice.
    The ancient Greeks had this - the copper giant Talos, who flew around Crete for protection. Leaders with the Maltese orders should like the idea ... fool
  18. 0
    22 December 2014 18: 14
    And why an art system if there are rockets?