Military Review

Automatic Plant them. Degtyarev A545 and A762

178
Work on the new combat equipment soldier "Warrior" is almost completely completed. The only element of this complex, which has not yet been determined, is the small weapon. At present, the Ministry of Defense and a number of defense enterprises are studying the existing types of weapons and are choosing a promising machine gun for the army. According to the latest data, the type of machine gun that will be included in the “Warrior” kit will be determined before the end of this year.




It is known that the development of two leading domestic weapons enterprises is competing for the right to join the new combat equipment. Concern "Kalashnikov" offers its new AK-12, created on the basis of old and new developments. Kovrov Plant them. Degtyarev presented for the contest A545 and A762, which are also a further development of existing structures.

In recent years, as these or other stages of the competition are being held, news about the prospects of the presented weapons. In particular, it was reported that the AK-12 machine gun did not cope with some tests and therefore has dubious prospects. Such news, in particular, said that Kovrov А545 and А762 machines could be the new weapons in the “Warrior” equipment. However, the results of the competition have not yet been officially announced. Therefore, while all the submitted samples can be considered potential winners of the competition.

Automatic machines A545 and A762 are developed by the designers of the Plant. Degtyarev under the leadership of S.I. Koksharova. This weapon is a further development of the AEK-971 and AEK-973 machines, created in the eighties. In the early nineties, AEK-971 participated in the Abakan program, but lost to AN-94. It should be noted, even after winning that competition, the automatic machine AN-94 was produced only in small series and did not receive much distribution. AEK-971 was also produced in small batches ordered by the Ministry of the Interior.

Accurate information about the production of AEK-971 machines in the second half of the two thousand years is absent. Perhaps for several reasons, the production of these weapons was discontinued. Already at the beginning of this decade, the Plant them. Degtyarev resumed the production of automata, and also began their modernization. The result of the latter was the appearance of weapons with the A545 and A762 indices, which are now participating in the competition within the framework of the “Warrior” program.

The main feature of the AEK-971, AEK-973, А545 and А762 machines is the use of the so-called. balanced automation. The essence of this idea is to use a special part-balancer, the mass of which coincides with the mass of the shutter. During the shot, the bolt moves backward, and the balance bar moves forward at the same speed. Due to this, the impulse created by a bolt strike in the rearmost position is compensated, which leads to an increase in the accuracy and accuracy of automatic fire.

The AEK-971 and A545 machines were designed to use an intermediate cartridge 5,45x39 mm. AEK-973 and A762 use cartridge 7,62x39 mm. In fact, these two “families” of weapons differ only in the type of ammunition used. The design of all four samples is based on the same ideas. At the same time, the new A545 and A762 machines have some noticeable differences from the previous AEK-971 and AEK-973, due to further refinement of the design.

Kovrov automatics with balanced automatics have a “classic” layout with front store layout. Automatic equipment is built according to the vapor circuit with the use of an additional balancer, which compensates for the gate pulse. During the shooting, the gas piston sets in motion the bolt group, which moves the balance bar through the gear. The latter is located in the upper part of the receiver and inside the gas tube.



An interesting feature of the Kovrov machine guns of earlier and later modifications is the design of the receiver. AEK-971 and AEK-973 had a box similar to the corresponding Kalashnikov assault rifle with a removable top cover. A545 and A762 received a fixed upper part of the receiver, and dismantling and maintenance of weapons must be done after removing the back cover.

The design of the bolt locking the barrel by turning is a modified version of the AK-74 automat. The trigger mechanism of the А545 and А762 automatons allows firing with single shots, with a cut-off of three shots and in automatic mode. Four-position flags of the fuse-translator of fire are located on both sides of the receiver, above the pistol grip. This allows you to change the fire mode without removing your hand from the handle, and also allows for convenient operation of weapons both right-handed and left-handed.

The AEK-971 and AEK-973 assault rifles were equipped with frame butts, which were folded on the hinge sideways. A new weapon from Kovrov’s design was the butt of a telescopic design Now it is made in the form of a back plate for an emphasis on the shoulder and two metal rods moving along the guides of the receiver.

In the basic configuration, the А545 and А762 assault rifles are equipped with an open sight and a front sight. For mounting other sights, it is proposed to use the long Picatinny rail provided on the upper surface of the receiver. Short strips are available on the side surfaces of the plastic forend and can also be used to install the necessary instruments.

The combat supply of new machines is carried out from standard domestic stores on 30 cartridges 5,45x39 mm or 7,62x39 mm. To simplify the manufacture and operation of weapons, it was proposed to use shops borrowed from Kalashnikov assault rifles.

New machines without a store weighs about 3,3 kg. Used automation, despite the apparent complexity, provides a rate of fire at the level of 800-900 shots per minute, as well as much higher accuracy than the existing weapons in the troops. Earlier it was reported that the AEK-971 assault rifle has about twice the accuracy with automatic shooting than the AK-74. Similarly, the comparison of AEK-973 and AKM using the cartridge 7,62x39 mm looked like.

Until a certain time, in numerous discussions of the current competition, the result of which should be the choice of the machine for the new equipment “Warrior”, there were disputes exclusively about the characteristics and prospects of A545 / A762 and AK-12. However, at the end of September last year, a new topic appeared for discussion and debate. Domestic media reported that, according to the results of preliminary tests, the AK-12 assault rifle was not admitted to state trials. From this it followed that the weapon of Kovrov designers remains the only real contender for victory in the competition.

From the latest reports that appeared during this year, it follows that the Izhevsk machine gun was nevertheless admitted to state trials and again competed with the weapons of the Plant. Degtyarev. Probably last year's news did not quite correspond to reality, and the AK-12 was able to pass preliminary tests, but the military issued a list of the necessary improvements.

Apparently, all necessary improvements were made, as a result of which both proposed families of small arms could take part in recent state trials. The results of the check and the decision of the military should be published as soon as possible. There is not much time left for making predictions about the results of the competition.

It should be noted that in the current situation, both of the proposed machines have approximately equal chances to enter into the composition of the “Warrior” equipment. AK-12 has advantages in the form of lower cost and comparative simplicity of design, and А545 / А762 can attract a potential customer with high characteristics of accuracy and accuracy of fire. Also, one should not forget that various backstage processes, lobbies, etc. can affect the results of the competition.

The choice of the military can be based on various technical, economic and other features of the proposed weapon. For this reason, even now, several years after the start of the selection process for the “Warrior” machine, the result of the competition is not completely clear. You can make assumptions, but they may be wrong. The intrigue remains until now, but in the very near future, the Ministry of Defense should announce its decision.


On the materials of the sites:
http://ria.ru/
http://lenta.ru/
http://world.guns.ru/
http://bastion-karpenko.ru/
Author:
178 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must to register.

I have an account? Sign in

  1. Igor39
    Igor39 28 November 2014 08: 13 New
    25
    I think the Kovrov automatic machines will win, I watched a video about them yesterday, they are not much more complicated than AKs. It is better to take them into service, not cheaper models.
    1. Wiruz
      Wiruz 28 November 2014 08: 29 New
      19
      We need to take the best into service, and not cheaper models.

      The time has passed when the army needed cheap assault rifles, but in VERY large quantities. How many millions of AK-74s are gathering dust in warehouses?
      1. Igor39
        Igor39 28 November 2014 08: 37 New
        0
        Were they needed in such quantities?
        1. Wiruz
          Wiruz 28 November 2014 08: 40 New
          +6
          Were they needed in such quantities?

          Well, in the case of the second WWII, they saved up. Thank God not useful
          1. RBLip
            RBLip 28 November 2014 08: 53 New
            18
            Quote: Wiruz
            Well, in the case of the second WWII, they saved up. Thank God not useful

            don’t give me a gop ... mattresses are more annoying ....
            1. Bersaglieri
              Bersaglieri 28 November 2014 11: 56 New
              -13
              Will bombers and KR shoot down small arms? The Korean method "100x200 Kare gives a synchronized volley at the approaching attack aircraft"? :)
              1. Bersaglieri
                Bersaglieri 28 November 2014 14: 09 New
                -4
                Again, the Juche Youth Club is minus. How predictable.
                1. The comment was deleted.
                2. Old old
                  Old old 30 November 2014 22: 33 New
                  +3
                  And by the way, what do you know about juche? Share (except UWB stamps and propaganda myths). Interesting.
              2. The comment was deleted.
              3. Prapor-527
                Prapor-527 30 November 2014 09: 10 New
                +3
                Quote: Bersaglieri
                Will bombers and KR shoot down small arms? The Korean method "100x200 Kare gives a synchronized volley at the approaching attack aircraft"? :)

                Well, the acre of the rifle has different tsatskas for the adversary ... S-400 "Triumph" for example ... hi
              4. Old old
                Old old 30 November 2014 22: 30 New
                +1
                The sale of small arms is something very annoying. After aviation and BT there is infantry, it is destroyed from Kalash and destroyed. And everyone can distort and bring to absurdity. Cons are correct.
                1. Bersaglieri
                  Bersaglieri 4 December 2014 01: 51 New
                  -1
                  Infantry "live waves" will go on the bottom of the ocean? :)

                  No juggling. The modern "big war" (this is to the original cue that "mattresses are becoming more and more worn") can only be remote and, with a very high probability, nuclear (see the Military Doctrine of the Russian Federation, paragraphs on the use of nuclear weapons).

                  In general, read carefully the messages and think before you "plus / minus".
          2. Nevsky_ZU
            Nevsky_ZU 28 November 2014 10: 12 New
            +5
            Star topic article:

            “Clash of the Titans": AK-12 vs. Degtyarev assault rifle

            http://tvzvezda.ru/news/forces/content/201411280918-a2p9.htm
        2. Dimka off
          Dimka off 28 November 2014 15: 16 New
          +3
          Quote: Igor39
          Were they needed in such quantities?

          They are needed now. The time is very disturbing.
      2. bazilio
        bazilio 28 November 2014 08: 52 New
        +5
        Quote: Wiruz
        The time has passed when the army needed cheap assault rifles, but in VERY large quantities.

        Times have passed, but people have remained. As a rule, price is a determining factor. Well, you can’t forget about the lobby. but in general, ideally, the so-called "end consumers" should be chosen, that is, all those who serve with the new machine and, God forbid, fight.
      3. Bersaglieri
        Bersaglieri 28 November 2014 11: 54 New
        -5
        Papuans need to sell the surplus. Africa is a glorious market for low-tech weapons
        1. Che burashka
          Che burashka 28 November 2014 13: 01 New
          +1
          Not quite in the subject, but I couldn’t find a better place, the famous Swift failed ...
          http://lenta.ru/news/2014/11/28/strizh/
          1. TOR2
            TOR2 28 November 2014 23: 42 New
            +1
            So what? Passing tests at NIItochmash is not an easy task. Many western brands would fail with a high degree of probability. They will fix the jambs, not without it.
      4. The comment was deleted.
      5. complete zero
        complete zero 30 November 2014 22: 22 New
        -7
        But what is bad about AK 74? and why is it difficult (a technological machine?) - unless it’s more to take a bobla ... well, the army would have been 100 people and it’s completely professional then it’s clear .. but there will be no replacement for the AK analogue (good-quality simple and not capricious)
    2. andrejwz
      andrejwz 28 November 2014 09: 23 New
      +8
      Quote: Igor39
      We need to take the best into service, and not cheaper models.

      Ammunition alone. What makes it difficult to accept both options for various branches of the armed forces.
      1. donavi49
        donavi49 28 November 2014 09: 54 New
        +6
        Money, logistics and organization of work in parts.

        Although you can follow the American model, they have everything from the old M-16 / 4 to the long-suffering M-27 (nee HK416) and SCAR. However, a somewhat different financing and ordering system pays for such a variety of sorts (where inside the IMS / paratroopers / army men decide what and whom to buy), and a powerful civilian market, the largest in the world. A high average level of soldiers - allows you to keep even inside one unit a large set of weapons of various schemes and designs.
        1. Matthew
          Matthew 21 January 2015 18: 12 New
          0
          And why is the H&K 416 long-suffering (I don’t know how the automatic machine took root in the States). For me - it’s better than the trunk and haven’t come up with yet ...
      2. sniper
        sniper 28 November 2014 12: 22 New
        +6
        Quote: andrejwz
        What makes it difficult to accept both options for various branches of the armed forces.

        As in my opinion, the Kovrov machine gun must be taken, if not for everyone, but only for specialists. Well, to increase the profitability of production, if it goes in a limited series, to develop the niche of hunting weapons, and the export potential for the new machine is very large. In any case, competition will only benefit, it will encourage the manufacturer to constantly work to improve quality ...
      3. AKM9
        AKM9 28 November 2014 13: 29 New
        10
        Quote: andrejwz
        Ammunition alone. What makes it difficult to accept both options for various branches of the armed forces.

        As in the case of fighters, business intervened. In a couple of years, Rogozin will say: “The AK-12 has many advantages, but we have already built lines under AEK,” and that’s all. It will be, like the MiG-35, much cheaper and more efficient than a competitor, but as they say, it is not profitable for business to sell what is more efficient and cheaper, it is beneficial for it to sell what is much more expensive. Let them conduct military tests and determine the best from these tests. And I also saw commercials about fighters, but everything turned out to be far from the way the authors of these films sang. The result was a fifth-generation fighter with almost over-the-horizon radar, but launching rockets with a maximum of 120km. Where big business got in, nothing good has appeared there, only a bottomless pit for absorbing budget money.
    3. bmv04636
      bmv04636 28 November 2014 09: 55 New
      -2
      Well, if the best is Abakan AN-94 Nikonova, this is where the breakthrough the first two bullets fall into almost one one, not one automatic weapon has this.
      The question is why didn’t AK-107 with balanced automation go into the army?
      1. bazilio
        bazilio 28 November 2014 11: 26 New
        +5
        Quote: bmv04636
        Well, if the best is Abakan AN-94 Nikonova, this is where the breakthrough the first two bullets fall into almost one one, not one automatic weapon has this.

        Sophisticated design, difficult operation. Yes, in the shooting mode with a cut-off of 2 shots, the accuracy is atrocious, but look how the AN 94 behaves when shooting in longer bursts - the accuracy becomes worse than that of the AK. So I would not be in a hurry to call AN94 the best in comparison with AK and AEK
        Quote: bmv04636
        The question is why didn’t AK-107 with balanced automation go into the army?

        Most likely, the financial issue again, although we only have to guess
        1. bmv04636
          bmv04636 28 November 2014 11: 32 New
          0
          But why in general long queues can set a delay of 2 shots, a short delay again, two shots and it turns out that it’s like shooting a burst
          1. kolyhalovs
            kolyhalovs 28 November 2014 12: 06 New
            +2
            This is some kind of semiautomatic device ...
          2. Dimka off
            Dimka off 28 November 2014 15: 25 New
            +3
            Quote: bmv04636
            And why in general long queues can set a delay of 2 shots short

            Long lines for cleaning buildings, working in trenches, for aerial targets, for overwhelming or harassing fire. That and only for this.
        2. Droid
          Droid 28 November 2014 11: 57 New
          +1
          Sophisticated design, difficult operation. Yes, in the shooting mode with a cut-off of 2 shots, the accuracy is atrocious, but look how the AN 94 behaves when shooting in longer bursts - the accuracy becomes worse than that of the AK. So I would not be in a hurry to call AN94 the best in comparison with AK and AEK

          Why is a cable with a block more complicated than two gear racks?
          Do you have data on the accuracy of fire in long bursts?
          The conclusions of the commission are unambiguous - balanced automation does not provide the desired increase in efficiency. And now there are attempts to revive the corpse buried in the distant 80s.
          1. Denimax
            Denimax 28 November 2014 13: 17 New
            +2
            On the video, something did not notice the cable or gear. As I understand it, there the powder gases act on the bolt frame and the balancer at the same time, spreading them in different directions. IMHO
            The back cover with the butt resembles the German G3A4. AK has a cover, a sore spot.
            1. MORDVIN13rus
              MORDVIN13rus 28 November 2014 17: 04 New
              +6
              At AEK, only the piston with the shutter frame pushes the powder gases, and the balancer moves due to synchronization through the carriage in the opposite direction, the simultaneous action of the powder gases on the shutter frame and the balancer is applied to AK 107, although synchronization is also there through the gear. And it’s interesting, why is the Ak 12 made not on the basis of balanced automation like the Ak 107, but according to the classical scheme, so there is a catch in that, and yet, when shooting the new Kalash is no worse than AEK, watch the video of shooting from AK 12, the barrel also almost does not lead away when firing at the entire store.
              1. Denimax
                Denimax 29 November 2014 02: 19 New
                0
                And why the hell did this balancer surrender? No one in the world is playing with him.
                In my opinion it is better to dance from a massive, stable barrel and the attached ammunition to it.
                In Kalash everything is the other way around, a thin barrel, a tremendous box, and a bulky mechanism, like a steam engine.
                1. 4thParasinok
                  4thParasinok 29 December 2014 20: 57 New
                  +1
                  a lot of things in the world do not indulge at the time of development with us, and then begin ...
                  Can you give an example with the development of Fedorov cartridges of caliber 6,5 mm? The first time they did not switch to 6mm in 1914, the First World War began, the second time in the thirties, there was no money for the full transfer of weapons to a new caliber. And in the third in 1943, and then, the transition to 6,5 mm was also considered for automatic machines ... Now Americans are thinking how to switch to 6,5. How many decades has the difference turned out, can you calculate?
                  Let me give you another example: pistols with a polymer frame. PM in this version passed military tests back in the 76th year. They did not accept it for one reason only; there was no data on how the gun would behave after 10 years.
            2. 4thParasinok
              4thParasinok 29 December 2014 20: 40 New
              0
              Denimax, we are talking about AN 94, it is in it that the cable is used, the gear to drive the counterweight is already AEK. Both that and another is located inside automatic machines, but not outside, they are not visible.
          2. Rex
            Rex 28 November 2014 17: 27 New
            +2
            One review on AEK is definitely on the "brother" - I do not remember how old he is.
            The author shot the store in one burst at 30x40 from 70 m.
            Somewhere, and the video was on the shooting in OBSn.
            In general, this is such an ancient topic that not everyone lives so much smile
            1. MORDVIN13rus
              MORDVIN13rus 28 November 2014 17: 44 New
              +1
              It only seems in that video after the shooting, one OMON officer offers this AEK to attach to KamAZ and wire it to the base, and check later.
              1. Rex
                Rex 28 November 2014 18: 05 New
                +2
                In what I mentioned, this was not like the riot police themselves.
                Tests for dirt, dust, sand, freezing, falling on concrete are standard.
                If AEK had serious problems with this in the early 70s, then in the 80s it would not have “surfaced”, but for the third time even more so.
                1. MORDVIN13rus
                  MORDVIN13rus 28 November 2014 18: 50 New
                  +1
                  then remember and AK with balanced automation 60-70 years.
                  1. Rex
                    Rex 28 November 2014 19: 12 New
                    +1
                    Maybe it was like that - I don’t remember.
                    There seems 12 pieces were models. But AK was without a balancer and he won
                  2. Rex
                    Rex 28 November 2014 19: 24 New
                    +1
                    Found what I’m talking about. Well yes, they are the same age
                    Well, as it is customary to assume that he is Alexandrova
            2. Bersaglieri
              Bersaglieri 4 December 2014 01: 53 New
              0
              Mid 90s (if about the material in "Brother")
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. Rex
        Rex 28 November 2014 12: 11 New
        0
        Many are surprised that the AN-94 came into service at all. Having an advantage over the AK-74M by only 1 point, but more expensive and more complicated. Although there are no complaints about reliability.
        Armed, as far as I remember, 1 division and 1 brigade + party dispersed in parts.
        Production was quickly enough turned off and they do not even remember the resumption.
        1. Droid
          Droid 28 November 2014 12: 33 New
          +3
          Having an advantage over the AK-74M by only 1 point,

          Not only, but according to the main characteristic - firing efficiency.
          1. ruslan207
            ruslan207 28 November 2014 14: 01 New
            +1
            and on other points loses reliability
            1. Droid
              Droid 28 November 2014 14: 16 New
              +4
              and on other points loses reliability

              Not funny. AFM has passed the full test cycle and is recognized to meet our requirements, incl. and reliability.
          2. The comment was deleted.
            1. Rex
              Rex 28 November 2014 16: 30 New
              +1
              AEK conscripts did not get. They were tested in special forces and intelligence units of the Moscow Region and the Ministry of Internal Affairs. There are not many reviews, but not a single complaint.

              As for reliability and quality in general, here is a fresh phrase "known in narrow circles":
              “Whether the machine gun was defective, or something else, but the PCM barrel did not want to be installed in the control panel. It can be seen that the axes of the gas pipe and the barrel do not coincide. The pipe itself had an obvious inclination. I had to tighten up and bend the pipe by hand .."
              That's how they live
          3. Rex
            Rex 28 November 2014 16: 19 New
            +2
            Only accuracy in short bursts (more precisely, a turn of 2 rounds).
            This is 1 mode out of 3. AEK superior to AK-74M in 2 - not a single unit of the Ministry of Defense and the Ministry of Internal Affairs were fully equipped with it.

            The situation has been anecdotal for 20 years. In the Russian Federation, 3 different models under 5,45x39 are officially in service, and all this time they have been arguing about the “new automatic machine”.
            Back in the 80s reptiles, Komsomolskaya Pravda announced the creation of a “new” machine gun, “superior to the AK” and with a magazine for 60 rounds, but even few people saw these stores, as well as disk stores under 5,45.
            1. Tyumen
              Tyumen 28 November 2014 18: 50 New
              +1
              Quote: Rex
              accuracy in short bursts (more precisely, a round of 2 rounds).

              Two cartridges are not a queue, but a doublet.)
          4. 4thParasinok
            4thParasinok 29 December 2014 21: 01 New
            0
            just one at a time and losing to all the rest. And while winning not in terms of efficiency, but in accuracy by shooting 2-3 rounds, that's all.
      4. Dimka off
        Dimka off 28 November 2014 15: 22 New
        +3
        Quote: bmv04636
        in one, not one automatic weapon does not have one.

        In a video about the A545 it was said that he had the first three bullets to fall into a nickle. So two is not the limit.
    4. Droid
      Droid 28 November 2014 11: 54 New
      0
      We need to take the best into service, and not cheaper models.

      The best and carpet machine AEK is a contradiction.
    5. kolyhalovs
      kolyhalovs 28 November 2014 12: 02 New
      +1
      So I looked ... Something too painfully PR these machines. Lose how to drink to give.
      1. twviewer
        twviewer 28 November 2014 14: 43 New
        +6
        I would like to know how much AEK is more expensive than AK, and how this relates to the efficiency of ammunition consumption. Whatever happens we save on weapons - we spend on ammunition. I mean the cost of each shot in the "milk". BUT it happens and so that each cartridge counts.
        Therefore, I would like to have a choice: a good shooter accurate weapons, mediocre - reliable.
        IMHO.
    6. Civil
      Civil 29 November 2014 00: 36 New
      0
      No, only the Berdan system!
    7. Civil
      Civil 29 November 2014 09: 03 New
      0
      For a long time, something more precisely was certain of the well-deserved and respected AK, but time is inexorably ... even the well-deserved trilinear is gone ..
    8. asr55
      asr55 9 May 2020 23: 11 New
      +1
      In single shooting, these ak-12s and aeks are equal, in shooting bursts from unstable positions, the ak slightly wins in accuracy. When firing from an emphasis in the mode of two rounds, the difference in accuracy is generally minimal. but there is. Dismantling and cleaning aek is more difficult than aek it has always been, especially in the field. But the thing is in the gear between the bolt and the balancer, and more precisely in its reliability during intensive firing during the battle. This is a very important point. God forbid that a soldier’s machine gun jammed or something, after shooting 10 stores in 10-15 minutes, this is death and not a failure to fulfill the order. That’s why aek for special forces, ak-12/15 for conventional military operations, everything is right. Aek must be recognized as an excellent weapon, but there are some nuances. In Syria, even PMC fighters do not use aek.
  2. erased
    erased 28 November 2014 08: 17 New
    +8
    While there is no open access to accurate data on comparative tests of both systems, it is impossible to talk about conclusions. But it can be noted that reconfiguring production lines from AK to AEK can be very expensive.
    Separately, another thing can be said - 5,45 cartridges do not fully satisfy the needs of the army. Although new types of this cartridge are being developed (sort of like). Caliber 7,62 - a step back (or not?) Will a new caliber cartridge be developed, within 6-7 mm? In the West, this has already been done, although NATO is still firing 5,56.
    In a word, there is something to think about. For in the end they hit the enemy with bullets, and not with a weapon design.
    1. Igor39
      Igor39 28 November 2014 08: 30 New
      +2
      A762 with balanced automation will be normal, 7,62 still serves and will last a long time.
      1. KSA
        KSA 28 November 2014 12: 50 New
        +2
        Everything rests on ballistics. 5.45 has a more consistent flight path, and the difference from 7.62.
        1. STALGRAD76
          STALGRAD76 28 November 2014 15: 14 New
          0
          Fucking well, nahu ... I screwed such a picture ...
          1. KSA
            KSA 28 November 2014 16: 23 New
            +1
            In order to show that 5.45 is not worse than 7.62, it hits the target.
        2. MechanicPol
          MechanicPol 28 November 2014 18: 27 New
          0
          It seems that the militia in the hands of the SCS at 7.62 or not?
          1. KSA
            KSA 28 November 2014 18: 39 New
            +5
            The militia AK-74, the SCS had a flame arrester.
    2. shtraib
      shtraib 28 November 2014 09: 04 New
      +1
      I agree, some 6,5mm thread under the same sleeve was optimal.
    3. bazilio
      bazilio 28 November 2014 09: 10 New
      +3
      Quote: erased
      Will a new caliber cartridge be developed, within 6-7 mm? In the West, this has already been done, although NATO is still firing 5,56.

      if the adoption of new guns comes with a creak, then about new cartridges it’s probably better not to dream. For example, 7.62x 54mm rifle machine-gun cartridge. was adopted by the tsarist army as early as 1891. Naturally, over the years of operation, modernizations were carried out, but in general it is the same cartridge. In the case of the transition to a new cartridge, what to do with the huge stocks of old cartridges? And of course, again, everything depends on the price.
      1. Nikolaevich I
        Nikolaevich I 28 November 2014 10: 44 New
        +9
        Quote: bazilio
        What to do with huge stocks of old cartridges?

        Damn, it's good that they did not accumulate "huge reserves" of cartridges for rifle! And what would it be? request
      2. gross kaput
        gross kaput 28 November 2014 13: 32 New
        +4
        And the main NATO pistol cartridge appeared at the very beginning of the 20th century - it was adopted by Germany in 1908. So what? The question is not when it appeared, but whether the requirements of the military will satisfy or not. and everything else is cheap boltology.
        1. bazilio
          bazilio 29 November 2014 12: 42 New
          +1
          Quote: gross kaput
          And the main NATO pistol cartridge appeared at the very beginning of the 20th century - it was adopted by Germany in 1908. So what?

          Yes, no, nothing ... The fact that the 7.62x54mm rifle and machine-gun cartridge has a cartridge case with a hem is normal, although no one else uses cartridges with such a cartridge in the world, it’s not at all scary that the cartridge case creates additional difficulties in design ....
          Quote: gross kaput
          The question is not when it appeared, but whether the requirements of the military will satisfy or not. and everything else is cheap boltology.

          the military would have been more satisfied with a 10mm auto or 40 smithwesson cartridge or 357 zig or a lot of other cartridges that have higher combat characteristics. By the way, the FBI is actively using 40 smithwessons.
    4. The comment was deleted.
    5. Nikolaevich I
      Nikolaevich I 28 November 2014 10: 58 New
      +2
      Quote: erased
      Will a new caliber cartridge be developed, within the 6-7 mm

      In fact, the Internet “ran through” infa that the Ministry of Internal Affairs once bought a certain quantity of automata from a certain designer for “cartridge of a new caliber, within 6-7 mm” for one special unit for testing. They also showed , and the data of the patron; but, miles sorry, sclerosis! repeat
    6. Rex
      Rex 28 November 2014 12: 17 New
      +4
      And who complains about 5,45x39?
      You can find a dozen opinions of active fighters, with experience of 10-20 years, who defend this cartridge
      1. 4thParasinok
        4thParasinok 29 December 2014 21: 15 New
        0
        You can find those who want. everything rests on the conditions of use and the specific situation.
    7. 4thParasinok
      4thParasinok 29 December 2014 21: 11 New
      +1
      But it can be noted that reconfiguring production lines from AK to AEK can be very expensive.
      belay What are you talking about? what a reconfiguration, they are made at different plants, and even then piece by piece.
      Will a new caliber cartridge be developed, within 6-7 mm?
      such a cartridge was developed back in 1943, under the leadership of Fedorogv (yes, yes, that same developer of the world's first machine gun). The decision to leave 7,62 was the need to release new equipment.
  3. Siberia 9444
    Siberia 9444 28 November 2014 08: 30 New
    0
    AN 94 for specialists AEK for double basses AK for conscripts and with a cartridge you need to determine this for sure.
  4. hohryakov066
    hohryakov066 28 November 2014 08: 31 New
    +1
    More weapons - more choices!
  5. Yun Klob
    Yun Klob 28 November 2014 08: 38 New
    +6
    There is nothing reprehensible in adopting two automatic weapons. The cartridge is one. It will be cheaper and faster for plants to establish the production of an automatic machine of their own design. In the course of the experience of operating weapons in the troops, it will be possible to refuse an unsuccessful option, although each, for sure, has both advantages and disadvantages
    1. Bayonet
      Bayonet 28 November 2014 09: 27 New
      +7
      Quote: Yoon Clob
      One cartridge

      Shops are also suitable.
  6. Fox
    Fox 28 November 2014 08: 39 New
    12
    Yes, I’m here to host us, that they’ll accept us. I work with the guys at the school, they cannot buy MMG. No money. MMG costs more than the working barrel. For pre-conscription training, all of us are military.
    just boiling up ...
    1. Hell's Angel
      Hell's Angel 28 November 2014 17: 52 New
      +2
      Not far from "our synagogue" school, so they come to us and are engaged in full. Probably you do not have such an opportunity, sorry of course. Yes, the price of MMG is sky-high, I wanted to buy myself an MMG of a Yarygin pistol so that I wouldn’t “kill” the gun barrel at idle training. When I found out the price ....
  7. Nayhas
    Nayhas 28 November 2014 08: 44 New
    +2
    Also, do not forget that the results of the contest can be affected by various behind-the-scenes processes.

    I would put this as the main deciding factor. The characteristics of the weapons do not matter, the main thing is who has the paw wider and higher ...
    1. 1c-inform-city
      1c-inform-city 28 November 2014 13: 36 New
      0
      Exactly . A video has already been shown on the box and it sounds that the AK12 is better and he has already won the tests and the army is ready to buy 50000 a year. request
      1. 4thParasinok
        4thParasinok 29 December 2014 21: 18 New
        0
        Well, in Russia 24 it was said somewhat different, both accept.
  8. bullet
    bullet 28 November 2014 09: 00 New
    +5
    The closer to the publication of the results, the more information throws in.
    The intrigue is heating up ???
  9. arthur_hammer
    arthur_hammer 28 November 2014 09: 00 New
    +7
    in principle, there is a “Kalash” balanced, a big plus for the “AK” is the line of standardized models of automatic weapons AK-74, AKS-74, AK-74m, AKS-74U, “AK hundredth series”, also RPK-74 and 74m, with the same Ak-74 (with the earlier version), it is possible to unrecognizably upgrade to the desired level, and for the A-545 and A-762 it is necessary to establish production (large-scale) and this costs money, well, they say it’s more difficult in production, for this reason the AN-94 did not go into production.
    I think that the AK-12 will go to the troops and all other samples will be in limited use in the "special forces"
  10. heruv1me
    heruv1me 28 November 2014 09: 07 New
    +9
    Today we must make a final verdict, follow the news. I am for AEK.
    1. Nevsky_ZU
      Nevsky_ZU 28 November 2014 09: 54 New
      +3
      Quote: heruv1me
      Today we must make a final verdict, follow the news. I am for AEK.


      I can't do anything with myself, I'm hooked on the brand to the bone, I'm for AK-12 hi
      1. Nikolaevich I
        Nikolaevich I 28 November 2014 10: 38 New
        +3
        Quote: Nevsky_ZU
        I can't do anything with myself, I'm hooked on the brand to the bone, I'm for AK-12

        And what if the RGD-5 "antibiotic" is treated?
  11. Vishnevsky
    Vishnevsky 28 November 2014 10: 03 New
    +3
    One gets the impression that the Kovrovites offered a more acceptable option than Kalashnikov. Therefore, for so long they can not make a choice. It's not for nothing that the AK-12 gave time for revision. It's just that Kalashnikov is a world famous brand. I read somewhere the thought that Mikhail Timofeevich was hooked by the fact that someone was able to make the machine better than him, and given his authority, it is entirely possible that the Kalashov lobby is hampering the promotion of AEK-973. But the fact that there are now two factories that compete among themselves is very good. Maybe Izhevtsy really will create a fundamentally new machine, and not a deep modernization of the AK-74?
    1. bazilio
      bazilio 28 November 2014 13: 03 New
      +6
      Quote: Vishnevsky
      Maybe Izhevtsy really will create a fundamentally new machine, and not a deep modernization of the AK-74?

      To create a fundamentally new machine gun for powder ammunition is not realistic !!! for the entire existence of automatic machines, a lot of automation schemes have been worked out, but time has shown the viability of only a few schemes - gas outlet with gas piston (AK), gas outlet to the bolt group, without piston (M16), half-free shutter with rollers (G-3), and the same methods of locking by turning the shutter, skewing the shutter, again locking with rollers. Of course, the designers developed a lot of options for automation schemes, up to the crank system, the author of which laid out his invention to the public on this site. In general, until they apply the new physics of the projectile throwing process (for example, the railgun) or another principle for defeating the enemy (for example, the laser beam), it’s not necessary to talk about fundamentally new machines
      1. Major_Vortex
        Major_Vortex 28 November 2014 20: 56 New
        0
        Do not write nonsense about the M-16. Learn the material part of the weapon. The M-16 has a "gas piston" - this is a movable shutter larva located inside the shutter frame. The gas pipe is brought up and forward.
        1. Major_Vortex
          Major_Vortex 29 November 2014 05: 37 New
          0
          ... I do not know who the first is this nonsense, about the gas outlet acting directly on the bolt group without a gas piston in the M-16 wrote and replicated. Here, by reference, the correct operation scheme of the M-16 gas engine with illustrations and comments is described:

          http://www.e-reading.mobi/bookreader.php/1019930/Chumak_-_Esche_raz_pro_M16.html



          This design of the original M-16 gas engine allows minimizing the negative impact on accuracy during automatic reloading of the weapons of the moving mass of the gas piston, since the gas piston, which is a structurally integral part with the rotary bolt of the bolt, is aligned with the axis of the barrel of the rifle:
        2. bazilio
          bazilio 29 November 2014 12: 51 New
          +1
          Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
          Do not write nonsense about the M-16. Learn the material part of the weapon. The M-16 has a "gas piston" - this is a movable shutter larva located inside the shutter frame.

          Sorry dear, you are right from the part, it all depends on the interpretation and definition. Here is an excerpt from the text from the link that you gave below "First of all, it should be noted that the gas engine of the M16 rifle automatics and its modifications refers to a rare variety of side gas exhaust engines (BHD) - piston dynamostatic enginesdiffering from other BGD systems in that that they don’t have a gas piston as an independent part. The powder gas discharged from the barrel bore directly affects the bolt frame and activates the reloading mechanisms of the weapon. "
          1. Major_Vortex
            Major_Vortex 29 November 2014 16: 00 New
            -1
            The gas piston, as an independent part, is absent in the M-16, because the piston is the rotary larva of the rifle shutter itself. That is, the gas piston is in the M-16 and has not gone anywhere.

            Powder gases through the gas exhaust system enter the shutter frame, and do not directly affect it, without a gas piston. Everything is inside the shutter frame: the gas chamber is inside the shutter frame, in the cavity of which the gas piston with 3 moves O-rings, the role of which is performed by the rotary shutter larva itself.

            Everything was done in order to maximally combine the centers of mass of the moving parts of the bolt group and force impulses arising during the operation of the automatics with the axis of the barrel channel, along which the bullet itself moves, and the sleeve moves back under the influence of the recoil force of the cartridge when firing.

            Roughly speaking, all moving parts move along one axis, which helps to achieve high accuracy and accuracy of the rifle. Unwanted impulses of forces from the operation of moving parts of automation, which can lead the weapon away from the line of sight during the shooting process, are minimized and nullified.

            Rifles do not have any gases acting directly on the bolt frame in the M-16 without a gas piston, as some “sofa experts” say. The design of the M-16 is much more advanced than it might seem to someone who is poorly aware of the principle of its work.

            Here is a link to the GIF animation demonstrating the operation of the M-16 automation:

            http://300blk.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/387bf-ar15-gasimpingement.gif

            You can do even better and Eugene Stoner knew this, and I mentioned how to achieve this on the site, but Stoner was prevented from doing so by the strict restrictions that were imposed on the rifle he was developing.
            1. 4thParasinok
              4thParasinok 30 December 2014 00: 00 New
              -1
              For several years now, a separate gas piston has been present on expensive piece models of small manufacturers, such rifles come from 2500 bucks apiece. the gas piston is not part of the bolt frame, it is a separate part, as on SVD or SCS. Learn modern equipment.
        3. The comment was deleted.
      2. Major_Vortex
        Major_Vortex 28 November 2014 21: 21 New
        +1
        The author definitely didn’t post the “Crank-rod machine” on this site, because it is an old German, if I’m not mistaken, design, the author of which has long been dead.

        Gryazev and Shipunov constructed an aircraft gun with a high rate of fire after the war on a similar principle - the construction was very successful.

        The Germans now have similar weapons.
        1. bazilio
          bazilio 29 November 2014 13: 12 New
          0
          Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
          The author definitely didn’t post the “Crank-rod machine” on this site, because it is an old German, if I’m not mistaken, design, the author of which has long been dead.

          I meant this project here http://topwar.ru/25346-proekt-kompleksa-oruzhie-patron-gx-6.html. This is just a project, not implemented live.
          1. Major_Vortex
            Major_Vortex 29 November 2014 16: 18 New
            0
            Quote: bazilio
            Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
            The author definitely didn’t post the “Crank-rod machine” on this site, because it is an old German, if I’m not mistaken, design, the author of which has long been dead.

            I meant this project here http://topwar.ru/25346-proekt-kompleksa-oruzhie-patron-gx-6.html. This is just a project, not implemented live.


            Because there is simply no special meaning in such automation for this class of small arms. This type of automation is justified in cases where a condition is required to achieve the maximum rate of fire from one barrel in automatic fire mode, as in aircraft guns. Rheinmetall from Germany offers an automatic gun on similar automation today. But she has an external electric drive, which allows you to change the rate of fire over a wide range. In the Soviet Union, at one time they took a different path and abandoned such cannons.
            1. bazilio
              bazilio 1 December 2014 08: 49 New
              0
              Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
              Because there is simply no special meaning in such automation for this class of small arms.

              So I said this - a lot of automation options were invented, but only a few schemes were widely used.
    2. 4thParasinok
      4thParasinok 29 December 2014 21: 21 New
      0
      already tired of reading such unfounded statements .... am
  12. kav669
    kav669 28 November 2014 10: 25 New
    +1
    It seems to me that the Kovrov version is better
  13. DimYang
    DimYang 28 November 2014 10: 28 New
    0
    In my opinion, AEK is better than a competitor. It's time to change the old man.
    1. Nevsky_ZU
      Nevsky_ZU 28 November 2014 10: 30 New
      +1
      Quote: dimyan
      In my opinion, AEK is better than a competitor. It's time to change little old man.


      Did you hold the AK-12 in your hands? smile
      1. Kunar
        Kunar 28 November 2014 10: 39 New
        +1
        I agree. Everything is known in comparison. AK is more familiar .....
  14. ruslan207
    ruslan207 28 November 2014 10: 32 New
    +4
    Kovrov automatics with balanced automatics have a “classic” layout with front store layout. Automatic equipment is built according to the vapor circuit with the use of an additional balancer, which compensates for the gate pulse. During the shooting, the gas piston sets in motion the bolt group, which moves the balance bar through the gear. The latter is located in the upper part of the receiver and inside the gas tube.
    So in ak-there are a series of such machines with balanced automation to change the awl for soap ak-12 is the best choice
    1. KSA
      KSA 28 November 2014 12: 41 New
      +2
      I agree. On the basis of AK-12, you can design a whole line of small arms, PDW, Carabiner, Machine gun of the RPK type. But based on the Kovrov automaton, no.
      1. ruslan207
        ruslan207 28 November 2014 13: 59 New
        +1
        Yes, they already offered to replace AK Nikonov’s machine, nothing happened
      2. ruslan207
        ruslan207 28 November 2014 13: 59 New
        0
        Yes, they already offered to replace AK Nikonov’s machine, nothing happened
      3. fennekRUS
        fennekRUS 28 November 2014 16: 04 New
        +5
        Quote: KSA
        I agree. On the basis of AK-12, you can design a whole line of small arms, PDW, Carabiner, Machine gun of the RPK type. But based on the Kovrov automaton, no.

        justify? AEK has no contraindications to shortening and lengthening of the trunk. IZHMash refused from AKSU, extending the 104th. Moreover, interchangeable trunks in AEK laid constructively. So what prevents to increase the thickness of the walls of the receiver and stick a machine gun barrel? Or pile Marxman? Justify your argument, please.
        1. KSA
          KSA 28 November 2014 16: 30 New
          0
          AEK doesn’t have any contraindications to shortening-lengthening the trunk

          There is, namely, an elongated gas pipe.

          IZHMash refused from AKSU, extending the 104th


          That Putin showed a shortened ak-12.

          Moreover, interchangeable trunks in AEK laid constructively.


          From this place in more detail, there was no information about interchangeable trunks in AEC.

          So what prevents to increase the thickness of the walls of the receiver and stick a machine gun barrel? Or pile Marxman? Justify your argument, please.


          It is a gas vent mechanism with a counter-flow, by the way for a manual machine gun under caliber 5.45 or 7.62X39 aek would not be bad, allowing you to conduct intense fire. Marmaxman does not need a mechanism for suppressing returns at all, for a semiautomatic device.
          1. fennekRUS
            fennekRUS 28 November 2014 20: 16 New
            +3
            KSA- where are you, excuse me, saw a long gas pipe? You do not confuse it with a balancer cover? The length of the balancer is not an axiom, it just can not be less than the shutter speed (subject to a gear ratio of 1: 1)
            About a removable barrel, it was read somewhere, or in an interview I heard. I’ll find the link.
            The AK-100 theme appeared earlier than the AK-12 for 15 years, what does Putin have to do with it? Apparently, I expressed myself vaguely. Izhmash himself abandoned the concept of a very shortened machine. !) 4th, shortening 12 series have a completely kosher trunk, which, unlike the "Ksenia", does not require a muzzle for automation.
            Py sy - Ak 74M is the best machine :) AEK is just more interesting IMHO (that's why I protect)
            1. KSA
              KSA 28 November 2014 20: 49 New
              0
              Yes, beguiled with a balancer cover.
          2. fennekRUS
            fennekRUS 28 November 2014 20: 30 New
            +1
            [quote = KSA] From this place in more detail, no where there was no information about interchangeable trunks in AEC.
            [/ Quote
            you're right-the barrel is pressed into the sleeve. I admit a mistake
      4. artalex32010
        artalex32010 28 November 2014 22: 32 New
        0
        Here, here I am about the same thing. Imagine all some soldiers will be running with new Kovorov assault rifles, while others will be with old and ragged "Ksenia" ..... and how will it look?
        1. kush62
          kush62 29 November 2014 04: 42 New
          0
          artalex32010 Yesterday, 22:32 PM ↑
          Here, here I am about the same thing. Imagine all some soldiers will be running with new Kovorov assault rifles, while others will be with old and ragged "Ksenia" ..... and how will it look?

          It seems to me that you are confused with a beauty contest. What does it mean to look? We need a reliable machine with excellent characteristics, and not a beautiful toy.
  15. Fess
    Fess 28 November 2014 10: 37 New
    +2
    I saw a video where a gear broke when shooting AEK (pushing the balancer forward). This is the most vulnerable point of the machine. I read, and I myself understand that this is a very unreliable thing. Heavy loads and pollution can damage it. In my opinion, this can put an end to this machine.
  16. arthur_hammer
    arthur_hammer 28 November 2014 10: 44 New
    +1
    victory will be for the AK-12, as in the 70s of the AK-74, there are too many factors in favor of the AK, including economic
  17. Dimon-chik-79
    Dimon-chik-79 28 November 2014 10: 53 New
    +1
    Also, one should not forget that the results of the contest can be affected by various backstage processes, lobbies, etc.
    - it will be very unfortunate if that happens. Unfortunately, this often happened in the history of the Russian armed forces, and models and systems were far from being adopted due to their characteristics and qualities. But let's hope that the choice will be made impartially and as objectively as possible.
  18. korol yasheriz
    korol yasheriz 28 November 2014 11: 50 New
    0
    But is the AEK’s butt length adjustable?
    1. Petrovi42202
      Petrovi42202 30 November 2014 22: 37 New
      0
      Yes. Previously, he had a folding (it seems to the left) wire butt (frame), but now he is telescopic with two guides. In the photo for the article he is shown.
      1. 4thParasinok
        4thParasinok 30 December 2014 00: 08 New
        0
        telescopic - not synonymous with custom. In those videos that I saw the mechanism (let it be called that), I did not see the adjustment. Although this is not proof that it can not be at all.
  19. CRP
    CRP 28 November 2014 11: 53 New
    +1
    Quote: Fess
    I saw a video where a gear broke when shooting AEK (pushing the balancer forward). This is the most vulnerable point of the machine. I read, and I myself understand that this is a very unreliable thing. Heavy loads and pollution can damage it. In my opinion, this can put an end to this machine.

    I did not find such a video. Let's get a look.
    1. Fess
      Fess 28 November 2014 12: 55 New
      0
      I saw this video from shooting about 4 years ago. I’m looking now, I can’t find it. If anyone finds it, I hope they throw it off in the comments.
  20. Kair501
    Kair501 28 November 2014 12: 09 New
    +3
    Already got those who say that the army needs a simple machine. now is not the year 1914, and not semi-literate peasants are going to serve in the army, the level of the modern conscript quite allows us to have more complex models in service. The world does not stand still; we need a multi-million army that takes only a number; we need an army that wins thanks to tactics where the soldier is not cannon fodder but a valuable military unit.
    1. erg
      erg 28 November 2014 19: 29 New
      +6
      A simple machine is needed primarily because a simpler design, more reliable in extreme conditions. More parts - more chances of breakage (especially small parts, the same gear in AEK), more thorough care is required. And then, all these modern models of small arms, hand weapons, even new ones (AN, AEK, etc.) are not more complicated than the same AK. There are more details, but the design itself, the principle of operation are simple. So semi-literate peasants will fully master them. Look at the different tribes in Africa, they know how to master modern weapons (I mean, first of all, small arms).
      A multi-million army is primarily a strategic advantage. And in tactics, a larger number of personnel always gives an advantage over the enemy. These are reserves that can be put into battle at the right time, or replace a battered unit with a fresh one (a battered one does not mean heavy losses. But a person has limits of physical endurance. If there are reserves of tired people, they can be replaced with fresh ones). Tactics is the art of fighting. To take a settlement is a tactic; to win a war - a strategy is needed. It is possible (and more than once already in military history) to tactically competently conduct battles, but lose the war due to poor strategy. A vivid example of Napoleon. A brilliant tactician, he tailored the strategy to his tactics. Impose a major battle on the enemy, where he will be unsurpassed. But as soon as he opposed a competent strategy of avoiding such battles (Spain, Russia), Napoleon loses the war. So, we need a competent strategy, well trained and armed, but at the same time in sufficient quantity of the army to have the necessary reserves, without which even an army consisting of super professionals is nothing.
      1. Rex
        Rex 28 November 2014 19: 51 New
        +2
        A Brief History of Over 40 Years
        There are 11 models at the competition.
        7 of them with balanced automation
        3 models (2 Izhmash and 1 Kovrov) go to the “semifinal”, 2 of them with balanced automation.
        In the "finals" go 2 - the current AK-74 and Kovrovets with a balancer.
        Kovrovets recognized as the best, but adopted by the AK.
        About 10 years later, Kovrovets (already AEK in the company of others, is trying to replace AK.
        The competition is actually not finished, because leave AK.
        In the 90s, it’s not clear why, they elevate Nikonov and take the AN-94 into service, but quickly curtail production.
        AEK "silent glanders" are purchased in small batches. In 2006, the plant is transferred to Izmash and production stalls.
        And here is a new contest - as it was not 40 years old. Again AK and again carpet with a balancer.
  21. Leader
    Leader 28 November 2014 12: 11 New
    +8
    Quote: Vishnevsky
    I read somewhere the thought that Mikhail Timofeevich was hooked by the fact that someone was able to make the machine better than him

    No need to repeat stupidity.
    M.T. Kalashnikov has repeatedly and publicly said that he would only be glad if someone came up with a machine gun better, whose Kalashniki - if only the Motherland and our soldiers would benefit from this.
    The direction of thought is surprising: under a new form - we need a new weapon. To look prettier? Photos of the brave numerous "commandos" with the AK-74 in their hands already fed up with our "menager" from the army?
    In the courtyard of the 21st century ... Already by no means a fantasy, but real everyday life - combat flying robots (drones); precision missiles flying into an open window; guided artillery shells and other, and other ...
    Now the infantry unit must detect the enemy and direct support forces (artillery, aircraft) on him; and for hassles - AK-4,45 is enough for the eyes.
    It would be better if you attended to the radio stations!
    We use Motorola-340s 10-12 years ago. They brought in new Russian “Granites” for testing ... - a week later they collected it and returned it to the warehouse, scratching Motorola back.
    In war, the main connection and interaction!
    But not an automaton ...
    1. fennekRUS
      fennekRUS 28 November 2014 12: 39 New
      +2
      I applaud while standing. Many people look at the world through the prism of computer games.
      Quote: Leader
      Photos of the brave numerous "commandos" with the AK-74 in their hands already fed up with our "menager" from the army?

      I can say the same thing about the 6,5 caliber, which has been introduced since the beginning of the last century, and will not be implemented in spite of all its “advantages”. Some kind of childish approach. I personally like the AEK’s concept, but I want 8,3 munitions in the army, and the intermediate and machine-gun rifle will work out quite well. Tokmo will be difficult to carry. Although .. I was here six months ago with atomic batteries for exoskeletons waving. So cheers and go! wassat
    2. Mairos
      Mairos 28 November 2014 12: 43 New
      0
      What, "Granites" have shown themselves disgusting?
    3. Rex
      Rex 28 November 2014 21: 27 New
      +1
      If everything was so simple, then NATO wouldn’t buy massively rifle sights more expensive than rifles themselves
  22. tun1313
    tun1313 28 November 2014 12: 35 New
    +1
    A little off topic, here the "swift" failed the test barely mischievous. The representative of zni ... very categorically stated that something like - because. Without any comments. I can’t pretend to say that this is not so, but annoying categoricality and lack of explanation, which in turn give rise to all sorts of speculation. Oh, if they really chose the best car, and no one has a stronger lobby.
    1. artalex32010
      artalex32010 28 November 2014 22: 39 New
      0
      Yes, the campaign was ruined by "Swift" .... Our military will have to run with clumsy PY ....
  23. xomaNN
    xomaNN 28 November 2014 12: 40 New
    0
    A huge plus of the situation is the real competition of small rifle design bureaus. Given the many-million stock of AKM in warehouses in case of mobilization, for a new machine, firing accuracy + TTX + ease of use should be preferable to price. If this is of course a reasonable gap in valuebelay
    1. yehat
      yehat 28 November 2014 14: 13 New
      0
      stop arguing with the patterns of Marshall Shaposhnikov, who was not at the first world war and used the theory of “human waves” in practice in the second world until he realized by the 43rd that he was a nerd. A person is much more expensive than a machine gun and it makes no sense to save on equipment. It is clear that the gold machine is superfluous, but to make a machine with a high-quality barrel, with a high-quality cartridge, do not save on body kit and optics - this is necessary! And the two design bureaus need not compete, but cooperate in order to combine the achievements and create a really good complex.
  24. Val_y
    Val_y 28 November 2014 13: 19 New
    +1
    Anyway, guys, I think that they will accept both options, for specialists Kovrovsky, as more accurate, and at the same time difficult to operate, but since specialists have a better culture of handling weapons, the problem is leveled, but for tankers, motorized rifles , sailors (in the general army) will be given Kalash. So we will see hi
    1. yehat
      yehat 28 November 2014 14: 22 New
      +2
      complex, complex ... what is it difficult to operate?
      You can’t drop it? it is impossible to make out? afraid of water, mud or sand?
      What is the difficulty?
  25. AZ
    AZ 28 November 2014 13: 43 New
    +1
    except AK and AEK - what else is there to consider?
    1. Dimka off
      Dimka off 28 November 2014 15: 30 New
      +1
      It would be nice to see Baryshev’s machine gun in this row.
      1. 4thParasinok
        4thParasinok 30 December 2014 00: 16 New
        0
        and what good is it? there, only the shutter will cost more than the entire AK, its reliability is unknown, and personally I am doubtful at all. Etc. etc.
  26. Raphael_83
    Raphael_83 28 November 2014 13: 52 New
    +2
    From the latest reports that appeared during this year, it follows that the Izhevsk machine gun was nevertheless admitted to state trials and again competed with the weapons of the Plant. Degtyarev. Probably last year's news did not quite correspond to reality, and the AK-12 was able to pass preliminary tests, but the military issued a list of the necessary improvements.

    For me, the situation is much simpler: the lobby, assets and reach of an audience interested in all senses, so to speak with Izhmash / Izhmekh (Concern K, in the end) are simply not comparable with those of the Kovrov Plant. That is, speaking in Russian, after the first unsatisfactory conclusions on the AK-12, the "designers from the business" simply brought to whom and how much was needed in the Ministry of Defense ...
    1. KSA
      KSA 28 November 2014 13: 54 New
      0
      Not a fact, as improvements though clumsy were. Watch the first videos and the last.
      1. Raphael_83
        Raphael_83 28 November 2014 14: 08 New
        +5
        So I do not deny the fact of improvements (unprincipled and significant, by the way), but I recklessly believe the statements of the responsible persons that the issue of admitting the sample to the second stage of testing was only in them, I would not.
        In addition, for that matter, no one interfered with Izhmash, as an alternative initiative option, to offer the same modified / doped AK-107 / AK-108 as a rival specifically to the Kovrov model.
        The AK-12 is nothing more than tuning the old, proven AK-74M. Not a new model, not a new design, not a new word in materials / alloys / composites used by domestic weapons - just tuning, which is done in the West by dozens of small custom firms. This fact for a huge enterprise with its full-time design bureau, industrial school, etc., is simply a disgrace. That is, to speak precisely of a qualitative transition to the "new" machine, as in the cases with: "M-16" / "HK-416", "FN FAL" / "FN FNC" / "FN F2000-FN SCAR", “G-3” / “G-36”, “Galil” / “Tavor” - alas, you just don’t have to ...
        From SW. hi
        1. yehat
          yehat 28 November 2014 14: 25 New
          0
          even the Chinese managed to create their own modern device
          1. Raphael_83
            Raphael_83 28 November 2014 14: 30 New
            0
            And for sure! recourse I completely forgot about the "QBZ" Chinese family - also a qualitative transition from the "pirate" heterogeneity that they had in service with (and still remains in some places, but in warehouses).
        2. 4thParasinok
          4thParasinok 30 December 2014 00: 32 New
          0
          The AK-12 is nothing more than tuning the old, proven AK-74M. Not a new model, not a new design, not a new word in materials / alloys / composites used by domestic weapons - just tuning, which is done in the West by dozens of small custom firms.
          you already held it in your hands, dismantled it a hundred times, or saw the scheme of the automation? What fact are your allegations based on? And vet is far from the first time. Stop writing bullshit.
          Personally, I don’t know for certain how the AK-12 is arranged, I didn’t hold any drawings in my hands, therefore I don’t keep my assumptions with me, and I don’t express in accusatory speeches. ..
      2. Rex
        Rex 28 November 2014 16: 46 New
        +2
        It was necessary to give them to enthusiasts for a year - the designers would not have dreamed smile
        1. erg
          erg 28 November 2014 19: 37 New
          +3
          Yeah, and to put players in computer games at the controls of aircraft and levers of control of tanks. Do not talk nonsense, designers are not dumber than these enthusiasts. Remember the beautiful work - the parable of the Lefthander, the writer Leskov. He savvy a flea, showing unrivaled skill, but after that she stopped working.
  27. Greenhorn
    Greenhorn 28 November 2014 14: 33 New
    0
    And what's the point of chasing the accuracy of firing bursts? So that several bullets enter one hole, increasing the stopping effect? So, maybe indeed to develop a new cartridge and dance from it? what How many I read the recommendations and watched the training videos, they always emphasize that the fire was justified in bursts at a distance of up to 15-20 meters and only then to create the density of fire in a sudden meeting with the enemy, push him to the ground, make him seek cover. Or at very close contact (at a distance of several meters), when one bullet is not enough to immediately neutralize the enemy. At large distances and during the transition of the battle to the positional phase, it is advised to shoot with frequent single shots. Allegedly, the fire is more accurate and you save ammo.
    1. Hell's Angel
      Hell's Angel 28 November 2014 16: 31 New
      0
      You are completely right! But for some reason we confuse the accuracy of firing bursts and single shots. If it’s rude, then the better accuracy when shooting single, the more accurate the weapon.
      Believe me, it makes no difference to a person 5,45 or 7,62. Even 5,45 inflicts more serious injuries. And this is not because of the shifted center of gravity, as many amateurs think.
    2. Rex
      Rex 28 November 2014 17: 18 New
      +1
      Fire in bursts makes more sense for a group goal - we build infantry, on armor, in the back of the truck. Seconds 3-5 - until they disperse / dismount / lay down. AEK in such cases, up to 100 meters, should be good.
      In theory, the balancer should increase singleness and accuracy.
    3. yehat
      yehat 28 November 2014 19: 14 New
      0
      so that untrained firing bursts fall
      1. I think so
        I think so 28 November 2014 23: 35 New
        -1
        And where do you find untrained shooting at WAR? This is utter nonsense - 2-3 lessons with real shooting are enough for training in shooting, and even the Papuan from Papuan will learn to apologize, but war is not 2-3 training, it is a lot of a lot of puff-puff. Well, then the untrained person will most likely get when the bullets fly with a wide spread, otherwise he will dump the entire store in milk HUGE ...
  28. Hell's Angel
    Hell's Angel 28 November 2014 16: 24 New
    +1
    Guys factory workers, send one. You are welcome! For my part, I promise a full report with video and photos.
    1. Rex
      Rex 28 November 2014 16: 43 New
      0
      If you really want to, you can find the part where they are, well, and then "agree on the test" winked
      1. Massik
        Massik 28 November 2014 17: 17 New
        0
        If you really want to, you can get a hat, for free - for free ...
        1. Rex
          Rex 28 November 2014 17: 36 New
          0
          With a hat, we always have a freebie. Our people are not greedy.
          By meeting you can get to the shooting range. Cadets are sometimes led by classes, although the demon knows where it is written
        2. Hell's Angel
          Hell's Angel 28 November 2014 17: 37 New
          0
          That's right!
          I ask because I’m afraid that the last contract is ending, but I still will not see it. Then drool on your retirement.
          A joke of course. Apparently the lieutenant did not understand. Or does not know what happens for such tests.
          1. Rex
            Rex 28 November 2014 18: 18 New
            +1
            I think they will not accept it. The third time.
            Concern "Kalashnikov" producing "digger"? Hard to believe.
            There is little chance that they will accept Solomon and will both produce (like Mi-28 / Ka-52). Or, so as not to offend the Dyagterites, they will order 50-100 thousand and they will crawl along our vast.
  29. Owl
    Owl 28 November 2014 17: 13 New
    +5
    Due to simplicity and lower cost: AK-12 - weapons of “conscripts” and military personnel for whom the machine gun is not the “main weapon” (air defense, aerospace defense, sailors of the Navy, communications, etc.), for those who have “combat (military-combat) tasks "is associated with operations with a machine gun, then for these military personnel (employees) A-545 or A-762 may be necessary, with a full set of" body kit "and various types of ammunition (the choice depends on the functional tasks: field; forest ; city; landing on not equipped coast, etc.). See you soon.
    1. Rex
      Rex 28 November 2014 17: 40 New
      0
      For "non-combat trunks" and the 74th can be dispensed with. It’s a normal weapon.
  30. Zigmars
    Zigmars 28 November 2014 19: 16 New
    +1
    Quote: AKM9
    It will be, like the MiG-35, much cheaper and more efficient than a competitor, but as they say, it is not profitable for business to sell what is more efficient and cheaper, it is beneficial for it to sell what is much more expensive. The result was a fifth-generation fighter with almost over-the-horizon radar, but launching rockets with a maximum of 120km.

    Which aircraft do you mention?
  31. Kurkin
    Kurkin 28 November 2014 19: 30 New
    +1
    So I don’t understand where the opinion is that AEK is complicated, unreliable, expensive?
    1. Excerpt from the patent (http://bankpatentov.ru/node/354820): "Automatic small arms (figure 1) contains a receiver 1, in which the bolt frame 2 and the balancer 3 are installed. The balancer 3 has the shape of a pipe. It placed inside the bolt frame 2, also having a tubular construction, uniform rows of through holes 2 and 3 are made on the side walls of the bolt frame 4 and the balancer 5, which serve to engage the teeth of the sprockets 6. The sprockets are mounted on the axles 7 in the carriage 8. The carriage 8 is placed inside balancer 3. It has an elongated part in the form of a rod 9, at the end of which there is a T-shaped protrusion 10. The response T-shaped groove is made on the bracket 11. The end of the rod 9 is inserted into the groove on the bracket 11 and is fixed in it from falling out by the return spring 12 for which one end of the spring is mounted at a right angle to the groove profile in the recess 13 on the bracket 11. Since the narrow part of the groove is smaller than the diameter of the spring 12, the movement of the end of the spring across the bracket is not possible. the spring 12, embracing the rod 9, prevents it from exiting from the T-slot from the outside (Fig. 2). The other end of the spring 12 is pressed against the bolt frame 2.
    The bracket 11 has a rigid connection with the receiver 1. For example, in this scheme it is provided with a rotary check 14 mounted on the receiver 1. In the locked position, the check 14 enters the reciprocal recess 15 on the bracket 11, preventing it from moving along the receiver 1.
    After opening the checks 14, the bracket 11 is disconnected from the receiver. Now, in the absence of a contactor, the entire block of moving parts is easily removed from the receiver, while maintaining the integrity of the structure (figure 4).
    The new technical solution was checked by ZID in the manufacture of a new modification of the AEK-971 assault rifle. That is, there are no additional balancers there, the balancer is a gas piston that moves forward, not backward when fired as in an AK, and drives the shutter frame Through the gear, moreover, this whole structure is rigidly fastened together and during disassembly is removed from the receiver as a single unit.
    What's complicated is that, one additional detail in comparison with Kalash, a stud with a gear carriage and EVERYTHING!
    2. Admitted to state tests? Admitted! Therefore, everything is in order with reliability at the AK level, for our reliability requirements are more stringent than anywhere else and under AK they are sharpened.
    3. Where does the information about the cost of production of the product and its final price for the customer come from? What if he also turns out to be cheaper than AK 12?
    1. Rex
      Rex 28 November 2014 20: 00 New
      0
      At the expense of reliability is not true., Tk. "grandfather" AEK passed all the tests.
      1. Kurkin
        Kurkin 28 November 2014 20: 43 New
        0
        So I'm talking about the same thing. And as for complexity, the same is not true, nor anything complicated.
        1. Hell's Angel
          Hell's Angel 29 November 2014 07: 45 New
          0
          I wrote on this topic. In the second company, the 971st was tested in the FSIN special forces. There were no complaints. The only thing is "do not give the conscript in hand."
  32. I think so
    I think so 28 November 2014 20: 05 New
    -4
    In a real battle, NO ONE FUCK IS NECESSARY FOR COOLINESS OR SMALL RESPONSE. Everyone needs RELIABILITY, RELIABILITY, CHEAPERFUL MANUFACTURING ... Accuracy is the lot of sporting events. But the gear used in the mechanism of this USBI from the carpet is UNRELIABLE, AND DURABLE AND THE ROAD IN MANUFACTURE ... Adoption, of course, everything will depend on how much and to whom it will be unfastened ... But when, God forbid, a real war begins, and not another CTO, they will howl here and think that it is better to have one automatic machine with less impact or two ordinary ones, one with mythical “accuracy” or two with ordinary accuracy, one with a gear resource a couple of times less or two without stupid gears with doubled life ...
    1. Rex
      Rex 28 November 2014 20: 52 New
      0
      Although it still depends on the cartridge, the AK-74 averaged sample does not give a guaranteed hit on the head already at 300 m. At 400, roulette is generally.
      Why then the infantry weapon - if it is reliable, but not accurate, and she herself is not trained.
      And about reliability - I can throw a link to the failure of the AK-74M in battle
      1. yehat
        yehat 28 November 2014 21: 42 New
        +1
        for AK to refuse, you need to use it in a completely swineish way.
        300m from the line of Kalash ... I would say that most are not more than 1 out of 20
        get from 200 meters single.
        AEK, on ​​the other hand, is able to remove some bias in the lack of training of soldiers and allows you to shoot more often with acceptable accuracy - in other words, to water like a hose, without risking greatly increasing the spread.
        1. Rex
          Rex 28 November 2014 21: 56 New
          +1
          I did not find immediately that story.
          If there is a desire - yourself on the author’s page.
          http://k-a-r-d-e-n.livejournal.com/
          And a photo of the AK-74M which refused to swine
      2. I think so
        I think so 28 November 2014 22: 22 New
        +3
        Dear distance of 300-400 meters THIS IS ANY EVENT ROULETTE! The history and statistics of the clashes beginning with the Second World War and further says that the use of automatic weapons is effective at a distance of no more than 200 meters. The greater the distance with ANY ACCURACY AND SOFTNESS OF GIVING - not effective. And therefore, whether you will be shooting NOT EFFECTIVELY from a cheap and reliable Kalash or from an expensive unreliable but soft and heapy AEK WITHOUT A DIFFERENCE - IT IS COMPLETELY NOT EFFECTIVE, roughly speaking, in vain to burn cartridges. But when it comes to the need to make 10-15 million barrels, here you grab it and apologize for the back seat and don’t know where to get a LOT of machines and stuff to make these unfortunate gears in the balancing mechanism ... and the war will not wait until You will make your soft and heapy ...
        1. Rex
          Rex 28 November 2014 22: 36 New
          0
          Meant a single fire. According to a purely personal opinion (from an assault rifle / assault rifle) from 90% of cases automatic does not make sense.
          It's about targeted shooting, and not "barrage", "harassing" "night lumbago", etc.
          In principle, I agree with the Germans when they identified for the STG-44. automatic fire efficiency distance up to 50 m.
          I also note that what was written about 300-400 m for the AK-74 (in my opinion) is not a design flaw, but a domestic culture (or tradition) of mass production.
          With a quality barrel, cartridge and assembly for 300-400 meters, there would be no problems.

          As was the lead to a normal battle with the AK-47 15 cm, and so far.
          For SVD - 8 cm, and this norm since the 30s
        2. Massik
          Massik 28 November 2014 23: 06 New
          +1
          Then you crawl along such a street ahead of the tank, and at 300 meters in the window an enemy with RPG appeared, what will you do with your 200 meters of effective range? As a result, the tank burns down, you hit the enemy’s fortified position, then you will be bypassed and killed. All because of one oblique line.
          1. Rex
            Rex 28 November 2014 23: 37 New
            +1
            If this bad window has RPO or a similar formatting factor, then the infantry will not find it. In the open, he can even afford to miss 6 meters
        3. Rex
          Rex 29 November 2014 10: 16 New
          +1
          400-500 m working distance for firing at head targets for SVD.
          A contractor with an experience of 2-3 years from the usual motorized infantry reconnaissance will fall.
          With 200 m from the AK-74M with ancient Soviet optics - too.
          If the enemy is worse prepared, then 6 such people can kill the platoon.
          With the US MP with more than 200 m, they are already fraught with rifle duels to enter.

          You can study at war, but with a large-scale war, time is not allotted. After the Second World War, even the deadlines were determined - 2 months on the defensive, 2 weeks on the offensive. Then either a hospital or a grave.
  33. CRP
    CRP 28 November 2014 20: 17 New
    +3
    Quote: erg
    A simple machine is needed primarily because a simpler design, more reliable in extreme conditions. More parts - more chances of breakage (especially small parts, the same gear in AEK), more thorough care is required. And then, all these modern models of small arms, hand weapons, even new ones (AN, AEK, etc.) are not more complicated than the same AK. There are more details, but the design itself, the principle of operation are simple. So semi-literate peasants will fully master them. Look at the different tribes in Africa, they know how to master modern weapons (I mean, first of all, small arms).
    A multi-million army is primarily a strategic advantage. And in tactics, a larger number of personnel always gives an advantage over the enemy. These are reserves that can be put into battle at the right time, or replace a battered unit with a fresh one (a battered one does not mean heavy losses. But a person has limits of physical endurance. If there are reserves of tired people, they can be replaced with fresh ones). Tactics is the art of fighting. To take a settlement is a tactic; to win a war - a strategy is needed. It is possible (and more than once already in military history) to tactically competently conduct battles, but lose the war due to poor strategy. A vivid example of Napoleon. A brilliant tactician, he tailored the strategy to his tactics. Impose a major battle on the enemy, where he will be unsurpassed. But as soon as he opposed a competent strategy of avoiding such battles (Spain, Russia), Napoleon loses the war. So, we need a competent strategy, well trained and armed, but at the same time in sufficient quantity of the army to have the necessary reserves, without which even an army consisting of super professionals is nothing.


    I agree. The smart and cunning, but not the skilled shooter wins the battle. Therefore, we need an automaton that will not require special training.
  34. saag
    saag 28 November 2014 20: 31 New
    +1
    Quote: I think so
    In a real battle, NO ONE FUCK IS NECESSARY FOR COOLINESS OR SMALL RESPONSE. Everyone needs RELIABILITY, RELIABILITY, CHEAPLESS PRODUCTION

    In real combat, cheapness in manufacturing is generally up to one place, it is achieved by the size of the series, the larger the series, the cheaper the product in the end

    Quote: I think so
    But the gear used in the mechanism of this cbp from the carpet is UNRELIABLE, AND DURABLE AND THE ROAD IN MANUFACTURE ..

    And this is the basis for the assertion that they cut the gear with a file with their hands, that it is expensive?
    1. MORDVIN13rus
      MORDVIN13rus 28 November 2014 20: 57 New
      +3
      It is not expensive, but its resource is many times less than the rest of the mechanism, the laws of mechanics work here. There is not only a bearing to reduce friction, but even bushings, for example, made of copper or bronze (I exaggerate).
      Consequently:
      1 carriage gears should be made of more durable alloys;
      2 If the gear is made of a more durable alloy and there is no bearing or sleeve, it will break the seat.
      3 Therefore, it is necessary to change the alloys in the manufacture of both the slide frame and the balancer.
      4 And this is a rise in price.
      Maybe that's why IZHMash refused to use balanced automation, since the synchronizer does not stand up, and will break faster than the rest of the mechanism
      1. Kurkin
        Kurkin 28 November 2014 21: 19 New
        -2
        Replace the pin with the gear carriage mounted on it and that's all, fight on. To AK, after all, also rem. kits are.
        1. MORDVIN13rus
          MORDVIN13rus 28 November 2014 21: 29 New
          0
          As far as I understood from the patent presented here everything is pressed there.
          1. Kurkin
            Kurkin 29 November 2014 01: 09 New
            0
            No, not pressed, you misunderstood. Press all automation parts into one unit without the possibility of disassembly, can you imagine this?
            1. MORDVIN13rus
              MORDVIN13rus 29 November 2014 01: 45 New
              0
              Somewhere I came across a disassembly of AEK, so there the carriage was on the bolt frame on the sides and it was one detail.
              1. MORDVIN13rus
                MORDVIN13rus 29 November 2014 02: 04 New
                0
                On all the diagrams that are on the Internet, the bolt frame with the balancer goes as 1 part and they are connected to each other by a rolled cotter pin.
                1. Kurkin
                  Kurkin 29 November 2014 11: 29 New
                  -1
                  Here is a patent from 2012. http://bankpatentov.ru/node/354820
                  Here is a stud with a carriage as a separate part.
        2. Massik
          Massik 28 November 2014 23: 11 New
          0
          And here you are, under the squeal of ricochets, hiding behind a pile of garbage, you begin to disassemble the machine; take out the hairpin; remove the carriage; install the spare (due to the vacancy of all the quickly accessible places for the ammunition, the spare carriage is hidden not far from you); insert the hairpin; assemble the machine. Sec 40-50 at least, you can live a lifetime.
          1. Kurkin
            Kurkin 29 November 2014 01: 06 New
            +1
            And before the battle, of course, no one checks or cleans the weapon. Replacing the stud with the carriage is certainly not done in battle, but on the eve, with visible signs of wear. In general, ZIDovtsy give a guarantee of 10 shots, and I believe them for some reason, apparently because they have been making machine guns and guns for 000 years and the culture and quality of production are at their best.
          2. CRP
            CRP 30 November 2014 20: 04 New
            0
            Well, what are you such dreamers? Who changed something during AK battle?
      2. CRP
        CRP 30 November 2014 20: 02 New
        0
        Yes, how much can you? The manufacturer said that the resource is the same as that of the AK74M. What else do you need? Well, wait and see, what is there to shout about reliability without knowing anything about it? An injector is more reliable than a carburetor, although before everyone thought differently.
    2. I think so
      I think so 28 November 2014 22: 59 New
      +3
      If you say that an additional gear in any mechanism INCREASES its reliability and that making a gear is NOT EXPENSIVE than not doing it at all ... then I have nothing to argue with you ...
      Further, it is obvious that an automatic machine without a gear with the same series will be cheaper than an automatic gear with a gear ... or not, in your opinion?
      And the cheapness of weapons in battle is needed so that EVERYONE had an automatic machine, and not just one to platoon ... And if you need about 20-25 million for Russia, you’ll think about it and why the gear is needed there, which breaks down and the machine to make a bunch of machine tools at the factory ...
  35. Vishnevsky
    Vishnevsky 28 November 2014 20: 54 New
    0
    By the way, today it seems like the tests of the machine for the "Warrior" have ended. Nobody knows who won?
    1. KSA
      KSA 28 November 2014 20: 58 New
      +1
      Itself in anticipation, in any case, that the AK-12 that AEK - decent machines.
  36. Lone gunman
    Lone gunman 28 November 2014 21: 11 New
    +1
    7.62 is anyway better, especially AEK.
    1. KSA
      KSA 28 November 2014 21: 18 New
      +1
      This allegation is not based on anything.
    2. Hell's Angel
      Hell's Angel 29 November 2014 07: 57 New
      +1
      Yes, what is better? 5,45 has better ballistics (direct shot), better penetration (experienced), wearable ammunition more, wound ballistics without comment. Ricochet? Not critical. Look at what the FSB special forces "go to".
  37. Killout
    Killout 28 November 2014 23: 43 New
    +1
    Also, one should not forget that the results of the contest can be affected by various backstage processes, lobbies, etc.

    As I understand it, the PR of Kovrovites began. All week articles about them .. or rather the same, only in slightly different words. see the competition comes to a logical finale. I just don’t understand why it’s so obvious and clumsy to PR (how ugly it is) and how it can affect it - publications on highly specialized sites.

    PS. from documentaries and memoirs for myself, I concluded that AEK in terms of performance characteristics wins against Kalash and he must be be adopted. Well, we can now, if the machine is really better than the AK-12, it will work. the truth is probably to "bring" the right uncle.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. wk
      wk 28 November 2014 23: 53 New
      0
      here you are ahead of me with a similar comment .... Kalashnikov concern supports Rogozin, who supports Kovrov is not clear yet .... AEK is certainly better than AK-12 .... I think that AK-100 series is better than AK-12. ... in general, the AK-12 from the series ... "let's update something, you just need to remember about the cutoff for the 3rd cartridge, which at a rate of fire of 600 is not what the 3rd bullet in milk is about, and about the countless fasteners that are on fore-end for example only worsen ergonomics.
  38. Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 29 November 2014 04: 44 New
    +2
    Kovrov machine is interesting by its novelty. Real operation in battle will prove which machine is cooler. Reliability, fighting qualities. I was struck by one report, when the correspondent girl was asked to shoot, she lay down, and the line was in the chest target. I wouldn’t be able to from Kalash! Remember the Tokarevsky rifle of the Second World War. For some reason, the troops did not like her, but the marines - on the contrary. And the Germans loved trophy ...
    1. Hell's Angel
      Hell's Angel 29 November 2014 15: 17 New
      +1
      Everything is in the approach to training a shooter. Believe me, with the right technique and the desire of the student and instructor, such tricks are possible from AK.
      Another thing is why 10 hits in the chest of the enemy? 1 - 2x is enough for him. It's just that we are fixated on accuracy when firing bursts. Although it is necessary to evaluate the accuracy of single. For example, modern sniper rifles, for which the accuracy of not more than 1 MOA (one angular minute) is accepted. If it’s rude, then the better the accuracy when shooting single, the more accurate the weapon.
      1. Droid
        Droid 29 November 2014 15: 43 New
        0
        Another thing is why 10 hits in the chest of the enemy? 1 - 2x is enough for him.

        You do not understand the meaning of high accuracy of fire bursts, no one is going to plant 10 bullets in the chest.
        If it’s rude, then the better the accuracy when shooting single, the more accurate the weapon.

        I propose to carefully look at this picture ...
        1. wk
          wk 30 November 2014 01: 06 New
          0
          Sorry, I wanted to put a plus .... I also support CORD myself!
  39. The comment was deleted.
  40. marder4
    marder4 29 November 2014 20: 33 New
    +1
    probably everything will win the AK-12, everything is easier
  41. MolGro
    MolGro 30 November 2014 11: 57 New
    +1
    Aek disassembly diagram!
    1. Kurkin
      Kurkin 30 November 2014 16: 35 New
      0
      The scheme is a little outdated. They improved the design, now the carriage with gears is placed on the hairpin (in figure No. 3) and this is now a separate part.
  42. boni592807
    boni592807 30 November 2014 20: 26 New
    0
    yes Good day.
    There is a question. recourse Not a gunsmith, ordinary “user” (soldier, cadet, officer): AKM, AKS74, AKS 74U.
    For the new “Ratnik” equipment, there are disputes about the characteristics and prospects of Kovrov automatic machines with balanced automation A545 / A762 and AK-12.
    In the first case (Kovrovsky) according to different sources, accuracy is higher, but reliability and use (maintenance), the price of the issue is worse.
    In the second (Kalashnikov), according to the same sources, it is worse with accuracy, a bit more ergonomic, easier and, therefore, cheaper and faster to establish an issue.
    Colleagues who practiced and used products from Kovrov and AK-12. Who knows the price, not in money, but in soldier’s lives. What’s your grade ?! what
    Connoisseurs of steepness, please do not be offended, this is not for you.
    I looked earlier on the topic under discussion. There is an interesting opinion.
    combat192 26 January 2013 07: 09
    In 1994, he studied at the "Shot" courses. There, in the history class of small arms, he first became acquainted with the Baryshev samples. Their performance characteristics and simplicity immediately impressed. The then teachers of fire training courses were delighted with these weapons. It is hoped that the history of this wonderful weapon is not over.

    Look at the link, so shooting and disassembling. I think it’s interesting:
    http://topwar.ru/1531-kompleks-avtomaticheskogo-strelkovogo-oruzhiya-barysheva.h
    tml
    Your opinion? Maybe we’re in a hurry with a contract for a machine for the "Warrior" ???

    P.S. I post the question on the topic of AK-12 and on Kovrovsky.
  43. Vasily79
    Vasily79 30 November 2014 22: 13 New
    0
    The state-owned enterprise will win in any of 12 Kalashnikov’s concerns, and ZiD is just a small factory with a greedy and obese owner in the person of Tmenov (an evil Ossetian).
  44. tag17
    tag17 1 December 2014 13: 43 New
    +2
    Practice is the criterion of truth. Let the military operation show the winner. And as you know, the ideal is unattainable. There is much to strive for.
  45. goose
    goose 1 December 2014 15: 55 New
    0
    Quote: erased
    5,45 cartridges do not fully satisfy the needs of the army. Although new types of this cartridge are being developed (sort of like). Caliber 7,62 - a step back (or not?) Will a new caliber cartridge be developed, within 6-7 mm?

    Such a caliber is not a step back, the whole thing is in the ammunition as a whole - the number of gunpowder, cartridge case, bullet. And with the creation and production of new ammunition we have a problem, especially for small-scale parties. IMHO without this essentially new weapon will not appear.
  46. Hell's Angel
    Hell's Angel 1 December 2014 16: 48 New
    +2
    Now with our "likely friends" 6,5x38 Grendel and 6,5x47 Lapua have become popular. But these are mostly commercial cartridges. Rearm the army to a new caliber is very expensive. I believe that 7,62x39 did not exhaust the supply of modernization. I don’t know, maybe the shape of the bullet, the composition and the weight of gunpowder. You can work with him. And a lot will depend on the equipment on which these cartridges will be manufactured. Dismantled a pack of 7N1 (7,62x54) just two cartridges were with the same parameters. And this is sniper. Many people know the manufacturer.
  47. qarzu
    qarzu 3 December 2014 13: 04 New
    0
    this is what you need to stop trolling now
  48. RichardBee
    RichardBee 4 February 2015 13: 52 New
    0
    The best option for “Warrior” is Kovrush A-762 ... When will they already abandon this moronic caliber - 5,45 ?! Why the hell did they introduce him ?! In modern conditions of warfare, it’s just Fuck! In the room, you can cripple or kill yourself by ricocheting, "in the field" even small grass leads this bullet out of the line of fire, it does not pierce modern body armor. So why the hell is such a bullet ?! Why is the good old 7,62X39 so bad ?! Even through the bushes it flies evenly, there is almost no rebound against the walls, it is stitching almost any protection ... Who makes such decisions there ?!
  49. 777J
    777J 15 March 2015 20: 19 New
    0
    AEK-971 and A545 submachine guns were developed for using an intermediate cartridge of 5,45x39 mm. AEK-973 and A762 use a cartridge of 7,62x39 mm. In fact, these two “families” of weapons differ only in the type of ammunition used.

    That's the trouble. And since both of these ammunition are rifle substandard, we will soon see the next "rearmament". At Warrior 2. Or they’ll come up with some new name. At its core, all these Warriors, this ... is not a good thing (I write this carefully).
  50. Cycle boss
    Cycle boss 1 August 2017 15: 36 New
    0
    A professional military, special unit needs a new weapon, depending on its purpose. Mass weapons are not needed yet. There are other problematic issues that need to be addressed. But it is necessary to develop.
    But if Zavaorukha begins, for "partisans" you can issue weapons from warehouses.