Automatic Plant them. Degtyarev A545 and A762

178
Work on the new combat equipment soldier "Warrior" is almost completely completed. The only element of this complex, which has not yet been determined, is the small weapon. At present, the Ministry of Defense and a number of defense enterprises are studying the existing types of weapons and are choosing a promising machine gun for the army. According to the latest data, the type of machine gun that will be included in the “Warrior” kit will be determined before the end of this year.



It is known that the development of two leading domestic weapons enterprises is competing for the right to join the new combat equipment. Concern "Kalashnikov" offers its new AK-12, created on the basis of old and new developments. Kovrov Plant them. Degtyarev presented for the contest A545 and A762, which are also a further development of existing structures.

In recent years, as these or other stages of the competition are being held, news about the prospects of the presented weapons. In particular, it was reported that the AK-12 machine gun did not cope with some tests and therefore has dubious prospects. Such news, in particular, said that Kovrov А545 and А762 machines could be the new weapons in the “Warrior” equipment. However, the results of the competition have not yet been officially announced. Therefore, while all the submitted samples can be considered potential winners of the competition.

Automatic machines A545 and A762 are developed by the designers of the Plant. Degtyarev under the leadership of S.I. Koksharova. This weapon is a further development of the AEK-971 and AEK-973 machines, created in the eighties. In the early nineties, AEK-971 participated in the Abakan program, but lost to AN-94. It should be noted, even after winning that competition, the automatic machine AN-94 was produced only in small series and did not receive much distribution. AEK-971 was also produced in small batches ordered by the Ministry of the Interior.

Accurate information about the production of AEK-971 machines in the second half of the two thousand years is absent. Perhaps for several reasons, the production of these weapons was discontinued. Already at the beginning of this decade, the Plant them. Degtyarev resumed the production of automata, and also began their modernization. The result of the latter was the appearance of weapons with the A545 and A762 indices, which are now participating in the competition within the framework of the “Warrior” program.

The main feature of the AEK-971, AEK-973, А545 and А762 machines is the use of the so-called. balanced automation. The essence of this idea is to use a special part-balancer, the mass of which coincides with the mass of the shutter. During the shot, the bolt moves backward, and the balance bar moves forward at the same speed. Due to this, the impulse created by a bolt strike in the rearmost position is compensated, which leads to an increase in the accuracy and accuracy of automatic fire.

The AEK-971 and A545 machines were designed to use an intermediate cartridge 5,45x39 mm. AEK-973 and A762 use cartridge 7,62x39 mm. In fact, these two “families” of weapons differ only in the type of ammunition used. The design of all four samples is based on the same ideas. At the same time, the new A545 and A762 machines have some noticeable differences from the previous AEK-971 and AEK-973, due to further refinement of the design.

Kovrov automatics with balanced automatics have a “classic” layout with front store layout. Automatic equipment is built according to the vapor circuit with the use of an additional balancer, which compensates for the gate pulse. During the shooting, the gas piston sets in motion the bolt group, which moves the balance bar through the gear. The latter is located in the upper part of the receiver and inside the gas tube.



An interesting feature of the Kovrov machine guns of earlier and later modifications is the design of the receiver. AEK-971 and AEK-973 had a box similar to the corresponding Kalashnikov assault rifle with a removable top cover. A545 and A762 received a fixed upper part of the receiver, and dismantling and maintenance of weapons must be done after removing the back cover.

The design of the bolt locking the barrel by turning is a modified version of the AK-74 automat. The trigger mechanism of the А545 and А762 automatons allows firing with single shots, with a cut-off of three shots and in automatic mode. Four-position flags of the fuse-translator of fire are located on both sides of the receiver, above the pistol grip. This allows you to change the fire mode without removing your hand from the handle, and also allows for convenient operation of weapons both right-handed and left-handed.

The AEK-971 and AEK-973 assault rifles were equipped with frame butts, which were folded on the hinge sideways. A new weapon from Kovrov’s design was the butt of a telescopic design Now it is made in the form of a back plate for an emphasis on the shoulder and two metal rods moving along the guides of the receiver.

In the basic configuration, the А545 and А762 assault rifles are equipped with an open sight and a front sight. For mounting other sights, it is proposed to use the long Picatinny rail provided on the upper surface of the receiver. Short strips are available on the side surfaces of the plastic forend and can also be used to install the necessary instruments.

The combat supply of new machines is carried out from standard domestic stores on 30 cartridges 5,45x39 mm or 7,62x39 mm. To simplify the manufacture and operation of weapons, it was proposed to use shops borrowed from Kalashnikov assault rifles.

New machines without a store weighs about 3,3 kg. Used automation, despite the apparent complexity, provides a rate of fire at the level of 800-900 shots per minute, as well as much higher accuracy than the existing weapons in the troops. Earlier it was reported that the AEK-971 assault rifle has about twice the accuracy with automatic shooting than the AK-74. Similarly, the comparison of AEK-973 and AKM using the cartridge 7,62x39 mm looked like.

Until a certain time, in numerous discussions of the current competition, the result of which should be the choice of the machine for the new equipment “Warrior”, there were disputes exclusively about the characteristics and prospects of A545 / A762 and AK-12. However, at the end of September last year, a new topic appeared for discussion and debate. Domestic media reported that, according to the results of preliminary tests, the AK-12 assault rifle was not admitted to state trials. From this it followed that the weapon of Kovrov designers remains the only real contender for victory in the competition.

From the latest reports that appeared during this year, it follows that the Izhevsk machine gun was nevertheless admitted to state trials and again competed with the weapons of the Plant. Degtyarev. Probably last year's news did not quite correspond to reality, and the AK-12 was able to pass preliminary tests, but the military issued a list of the necessary improvements.

Apparently, all necessary improvements were made, as a result of which both proposed families of small arms could take part in recent state trials. The results of the check and the decision of the military should be published as soon as possible. There is not much time left for making predictions about the results of the competition.

It should be noted that in the current situation, both of the proposed machines have approximately equal chances to enter into the composition of the “Warrior” equipment. AK-12 has advantages in the form of lower cost and comparative simplicity of design, and А545 / А762 can attract a potential customer with high characteristics of accuracy and accuracy of fire. Also, one should not forget that various backstage processes, lobbies, etc. can affect the results of the competition.

The choice of the military can be based on various technical, economic and other features of the proposed weapon. For this reason, even now, several years after the start of the selection process for the “Warrior” machine, the result of the competition is not completely clear. You can make assumptions, but they may be wrong. The intrigue remains until now, but in the very near future, the Ministry of Defense should announce its decision.


On the materials of the sites:
http://ria.ru/
http://lenta.ru/
http://world.guns.ru/
http://bastion-karpenko.ru/
178 comments
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  1. +25
    28 November 2014 08: 13
    I think the Kovrov automatic machines will win, I watched a video about them yesterday, they are not much more complicated than AKs. It is better to take them into service, not cheaper models.
    1. +19
      28 November 2014 08: 29
      We need to take the best into service, and not cheaper models.

      The time has passed when the army needed cheap assault rifles, but in VERY large quantities. How many millions of AK-74s are gathering dust in warehouses?
      1. 0
        28 November 2014 08: 37
        Were they needed in such quantities?
        1. +6
          28 November 2014 08: 40
          Were they needed in such quantities?

          Well, in the case of the second WWII, they saved up. Thank God not useful
          1. +18
            28 November 2014 08: 53
            Quote: Wiruz
            Well, in the case of the second WWII, they saved up. Thank God not useful

            don’t give me a gop ... mattresses are more annoying ....
            1. -13
              28 November 2014 11: 56
              Will you shoot down bombers and CD with small arms? Using the Korean method "kare 100x200 fires a synchronized salvo at an approaching attack aircraft"? :)
              1. -4
                28 November 2014 14: 09
                Again the "Juche Juche Club" minus. How predictable.
                1. The comment was deleted.
                2. +3
                  30 November 2014 22: 33
                  And by the way, what do you know about Juche? Share (except for UWPI cliches and propaganda myths). Interesting.
              2. The comment was deleted.
              3. +3
                30 November 2014 09: 10
                Quote: Bersaglieri
                Will you shoot down bombers and CD with small arms? Using the Korean method "kare 100x200 fires a synchronized salvo at an approaching attack aircraft"? :)

                Well, the acre of the rifle is different tsatzki for an adversary ... S-400 "Triumph" for example ... hi
              4. +1
                30 November 2014 22: 30
                The sale of small arms is something very annoying. After aviation and BT there is infantry, it is destroyed from Kalash and destroyed. And everyone can distort and bring to absurdity. Cons are correct.
                1. -1
                  4 December 2014 01: 51
                  Will the infantry "live waves" go along the bottom of the ocean? :)

                  No distortion. The modern "big war" (this is to the initial remark that "mattresses are more and more not harnessed") can only be remote and, with a very high probability, nuclear (see the Military Doctrine of the Russian Federation, clauses on the use of nuclear weapons).

                  In general, read the messages carefully and think before "plus / minus".
          2. +5
            28 November 2014 10: 12
            Topic article on "Star":

            “Clash of the Titans": AK-12 vs. Degtyarev assault rifle

            http://tvzvezda.ru/news/forces/content/201411280918-a2p9.htm
        2. +3
          28 November 2014 15: 16
          Quote: Igor39
          Were they needed in such quantities?

          They are needed now. The time is very disturbing.
      2. +5
        28 November 2014 08: 52
        Quote: Wiruz
        The time has passed when the army needed cheap assault rifles, but in VERY large quantities.

        Times have passed, but people have remained. Typically, price is the determining factor. well, we must not forget about the lobby. but in general, ideally, the choice should be, let's say, "end consumers", that is, all those who will serve with a new machine gun and, God forbid, fight.
      3. -5
        28 November 2014 11: 54
        Papuans need to sell the surplus. Africa is a glorious market for low-tech weapons
        1. +1
          28 November 2014 13: 01
          Not quite in the subject, but I couldn’t find a better place, the famous Swift failed ...
          http://lenta.ru/news/2014/11/28/strizh/
          1. +1
            28 November 2014 23: 42
            So what? Passing tests at NIItochmash is not an easy task. Many western brands would fail with a high degree of probability. They will fix the jambs, not without it.
      4. The comment was deleted.
      5. -7
        30 November 2014 22: 22
        But what is bad about AK 74? and why is it difficult (a technological machine?) - unless it’s more to take a bobla ... well, the army would have been 100 people and it’s completely professional then it’s clear .. but there will be no replacement for the AK analogue (good-quality simple and not capricious)
    2. +8
      28 November 2014 09: 23
      Quote: Igor39
      We need to take the best into service, and not cheaper models.

      Ammunition alone. What makes it difficult to accept both options for various branches of the armed forces.
      1. +6
        28 November 2014 09: 54
        Money, logistics and organization of work in parts.

        Although you can follow the American model, they have everything from the old M-16 / 4 to the long-suffering M-27 (nee HK416) and SCAR. However, a somewhat different financing and ordering system pays for such a variety of sorts (where inside the IMS / paratroopers / army men decide what and whom to buy), and a powerful civilian market, the largest in the world. A high average level of soldiers - allows you to keep even inside one unit a large set of weapons of various schemes and designs.
        1. 0
          21 January 2015 18: 12
          And why is the H&K 416 long-suffering (I don’t know how the automatic machine took root in the States). For me - it’s better than the trunk and haven’t come up with yet ...
      2. +6
        28 November 2014 12: 22
        Quote: andrejwz
        What makes it difficult to accept both options for various branches of the armed forces.

        As in my opinion, the Kovrov machine gun must be taken, if not for everyone, but only for specialists. Well, to increase the profitability of production, if it goes in a limited series, to develop the niche of hunting weapons, and the export potential for the new machine is very large. In any case, competition will only benefit, it will encourage the manufacturer to constantly work to improve quality ...
      3. AKM9
        +10
        28 November 2014 13: 29
        Quote: andrejwz
        Ammunition alone. What makes it difficult to accept both options for various branches of the armed forces.

        As in the case of fighters, business intervened. In a couple of years Rogozin will say: “The AK-12 has many advantages, but we have already built the lines for the AEK,” and that's it. It will be like the MiG-35, much cheaper and more efficient than the competitor, but as they say, it is not profitable for business to sell what is more efficient and cheaper, it is profitable for it to sell what is much more expensive. Let them conduct military trials and determine the best according to these trials. And I also saw commercials about fighters, but everything turned out to be far from the way the authors of these films sang. As a result, a fighter came at the price of the fifth generation with practically over-the-horizon radar, but launching missiles at a maximum of 120 km. Where big business has entered, nothing good has appeared yet, only a bottomless pit for the absorption of budget money.
    3. -2
      28 November 2014 09: 55
      Well, if the best is Abakan AN-94 Nikonova, this is where the breakthrough the first two bullets fall into almost one one, not one automatic weapon has this.
      The question is why didn’t AK-107 with balanced automation go into the army?
      1. +5
        28 November 2014 11: 26
        Quote: bmv04636
        Well, if the best is Abakan AN-94 Nikonova, this is where the breakthrough the first two bullets fall into almost one one, not one automatic weapon has this.

        Sophisticated design, difficult operation. Yes, in the shooting mode with a cut-off of 2 shots, the accuracy is atrocious, but look how the AN 94 behaves when shooting in longer bursts - the accuracy becomes worse than that of the AK. So I would not be in a hurry to call AN94 the best in comparison with AK and AEK
        Quote: bmv04636
        The question is why didn’t AK-107 with balanced automation go into the army?

        Most likely, the financial issue again, although we only have to guess
        1. 0
          28 November 2014 11: 32
          But why in general long queues can set a delay of 2 shots, a short delay again, two shots and it turns out that it’s like shooting a burst
          1. +2
            28 November 2014 12: 06
            This is some kind of semiautomatic device ...
          2. +3
            28 November 2014 15: 25
            Quote: bmv04636
            And why in general long queues can set a delay of 2 shots short

            Long lines for cleaning buildings, working in trenches, for aerial targets, for overwhelming or harassing fire. That and only for this.
        2. +1
          28 November 2014 11: 57
          Sophisticated design, difficult operation. Yes, in the shooting mode with a cut-off of 2 shots, the accuracy is atrocious, but look how the AN 94 behaves when shooting in longer bursts - the accuracy becomes worse than that of the AK. So I would not be in a hurry to call AN94 the best in comparison with AK and AEK

          Why is a cable with a block more complicated than two gear racks?
          Do you have data on the accuracy of fire in long bursts?
          The conclusions of the commission are unambiguous - balanced automation does not provide the desired increase in efficiency. And now there are attempts to revive the corpse buried in the distant 80s.
          1. +2
            28 November 2014 13: 17
            On the video, something did not notice the cable or gear. As I understand it, there the powder gases act on the bolt frame and the balancer at the same time, spreading them in different directions. IMHO
            The back cover with the butt resembles the German G3A4. AK has a cover, a sore spot.
            1. +6
              28 November 2014 17: 04
              At AEK, only the piston with the shutter frame pushes the powder gases, and the balancer moves due to synchronization through the carriage in the opposite direction, the simultaneous action of the powder gases on the shutter frame and the balancer is applied to AK 107, although synchronization is also there through the gear. And it’s interesting, why is the Ak 12 made not on the basis of balanced automation like the Ak 107, but according to the classical scheme, so there is a catch in that, and yet, when shooting the new Kalash is no worse than AEK, watch the video of shooting from AK 12, the barrel also almost does not lead away when firing at the entire store.
              1. 0
                29 November 2014 02: 19
                And why the hell did this balancer surrender? No one in the world is playing with him.
                In my opinion it is better to dance from a massive, stable barrel and the attached ammunition to it.
                In Kalash everything is the other way around, a thin barrel, a tremendous box, and a bulky mechanism, like a steam engine.
                1. +1
                  29 December 2014 20: 57
                  a lot of things in the world do not indulge at the time of development with us, and then begin ...
                  Can you give an example with the development of Fedorov cartridges of caliber 6,5 mm? The first time they did not switch to 6mm in 1914, the First World War began, the second time in the thirties, there was no money for the full transfer of weapons to a new caliber. And in the third in 1943, and then, the transition to 6,5 mm was also considered for automatic machines ... Now Americans are thinking how to switch to 6,5. How many decades has the difference turned out, can you calculate?
                  Let me give you another example: pistols with a polymer frame. PM in this version passed military tests back in the 76th year. They did not accept it for one reason only; there was no data on how the gun would behave after 10 years.
            2. 0
              29 December 2014 20: 40
              Denimax, we are talking about AN 94, it is in it that the cable is used, the gear to drive the counterweight is already AEK. Both that and another is located inside automatic machines, but not outside, they are not visible.
          2. Rex
            +2
            28 November 2014 17: 27
            One review for AEK is definitely on the "brother" - I don't remember how old he is.
            The author shot the store in one burst at 30x40 from 70 m.
            Somewhere, and the video was on the shooting in OBSn.
            In general, this is such an ancient topic that not everyone lives so much smile
            1. +1
              28 November 2014 17: 44
              It only seems in that video after the shooting, one OMON officer offers this AEK to attach to KamAZ and wire it to the base, and check later.
              1. Rex
                +2
                28 November 2014 18: 05
                In what I mentioned, this was not like the riot police themselves.
                Tests for dirt, dust, sand, freezing, falling on concrete are standard.
                If AEK had serious problems with this in the early 70s, then in the 80s it would not have "surfaced", and even more so for the third time.
                1. +1
                  28 November 2014 18: 50
                  then remember and AK with balanced automation 60-70 years.
                  1. Rex
                    +1
                    28 November 2014 19: 12
                    Maybe it was like that - I don’t remember.
                    There seems 12 pieces were models. But AK was without a balancer and he won
                  2. Rex
                    +1
                    28 November 2014 19: 24
                    Found what I’m talking about. Well yes, they are the same age
                    Well, as it is customary to assume that he is Alexandrova
            2. 0
              4 December 2014 01: 53
              Mid 90s (if about the material in "Brother")
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. Rex
        0
        28 November 2014 12: 11
        Many are surprised that the AN-94 came into service at all. Having an advantage over the AK-74M by only 1 point, but more expensive and more complicated. Although there are no complaints about reliability.
        Armed, as far as I remember, 1 division and 1 brigade + party dispersed in parts.
        Production was quickly enough turned off and they do not even remember the resumption.
        1. +3
          28 November 2014 12: 33
          Having an advantage over the AK-74M by only 1 point,

          Not only, but according to the main characteristic - firing efficiency.
          1. +1
            28 November 2014 14: 01
            and on other points loses reliability
            1. +4
              28 November 2014 14: 16
              and on other points loses reliability

              Not funny. AFM has passed the full test cycle and is recognized to meet our requirements, incl. and reliability.
          2. The comment was deleted.
            1. Rex
              +1
              28 November 2014 16: 30
              AEK conscripts did not get. They were tested in special forces and intelligence units of the Moscow Region and the Ministry of Internal Affairs. There are not many reviews, but not a single complaint.

              As for reliability and quality in general, here is a fresh phrase "known in narrow circles":
              "Either a defective machine gun, or something else, but the PKM barrel did not want to be installed in the control panel. It can be seen that the axes of the gas tube and the barrel do not coincide. The tube itself had an obvious tilt. I had to strain myself and bend the tube with my hand .."
              That's how they live
          3. Rex
            +2
            28 November 2014 16: 19
            Only accuracy in short bursts (more precisely, a turn of 2 rounds).
            This is 1 mode out of 3. AEK superior to AK-74M in 2 - not a single unit of the Ministry of Defense and the Ministry of Internal Affairs were fully equipped with it.

            The situation has been anecdotal for 20 years. In the Russian Federation, quite officially there are 3 different models under 5,45x39 in service and all this time they argue about the "new machine number."
            Back in the 80s, reptiles in "Komsomolskaya Pravda" announced the creation of a "new" assault rifle, "superior to AK" and with a magazine for 60 rounds, but even these stores were few people saw, as well as disc under 5,45.
            1. Tyumen
              +1
              28 November 2014 18: 50
              Quote: Rex
              accuracy in short bursts (more precisely, a round of 2 rounds).

              Two cartridges are not a queue, but a doublet.)
          4. 0
            29 December 2014 21: 01
            just one at a time and losing to all the rest. And while winning not in terms of efficiency, but in accuracy by shooting 2-3 rounds, that's all.
      4. +3
        28 November 2014 15: 22
        Quote: bmv04636
        in one, not one automatic weapon does not have one.

        In a video about the A545 it was said that he had the first three bullets to fall into a nickle. So two is not the limit.
    4. 0
      28 November 2014 11: 54
      We need to take the best into service, and not cheaper models.

      The best and carpet machine AEK is a contradiction.
    5. +1
      28 November 2014 12: 02
      So I looked ... Something too painfully PR these machines. Lose how to drink to give.
      1. +6
        28 November 2014 14: 43
        I would like to know how much AEK is more expensive than AK, and how this relates to the efficiency of ammunition consumption. Whatever happens, we save on weapons - we spend on ammunition. I mean the cost of every shot in the milk. BUT it also happens that every cartridge counts.
        Therefore, I would like to have a choice: a good shooter accurate weapons, mediocre - reliable.
        IMHO.
    6. 0
      29 November 2014 00: 36
      No, only the Berdan system!
    7. 0
      29 November 2014 09: 03
      For a long time, something more precisely was certain of the well-deserved and respected AK, but time is inexorably ... even the well-deserved trilinear is gone ..
    8. +1
      9 May 2020 23: 11
      In single shooting, these ak-12s and aeks are equal, in shooting bursts from unstable positions, the ak slightly wins in accuracy. When firing from an emphasis in the mode of two rounds, the difference in accuracy is generally minimal. but there is. Dismantling and cleaning aek is more difficult than aek it has always been, especially in the field. But the thing is in the gear between the bolt and the balancer, and more precisely in its reliability during intensive firing during the battle. This is a very important point. God forbid that a soldier’s machine gun jammed or something, after shooting 10 stores in 10-15 minutes, this is death and not a failure to fulfill the order. That’s why aek for special forces, ak-12/15 for conventional military operations, everything is right. Aek must be recognized as an excellent weapon, but there are some nuances. In Syria, even PMC fighters do not use aek.
  2. +8
    28 November 2014 08: 17
    While there is no open access to accurate data on comparative tests of both systems, it is impossible to talk about conclusions. But it can be noted that reconfiguring production lines from AK to AEK can be very expensive.
    Separately, another thing can be said - 5,45 cartridges do not fully satisfy the needs of the army. Although new types of this cartridge are being developed (sort of like). Caliber 7,62 - a step back (or not?) Will a new caliber cartridge be developed, within 6-7 mm? In the West, this has already been done, although NATO is still firing 5,56.
    In a word, there is something to think about. For in the end they hit the enemy with bullets, and not with a weapon design.
    1. +2
      28 November 2014 08: 30
      A762 with balanced automation will be normal, 7,62 still serves and will last a long time.
      1. KSA
        KSA
        +2
        28 November 2014 12: 50
        Everything rests on ballistics. 5.45 has a more consistent flight path, and the difference from 7.62.
        1. 0
          28 November 2014 15: 14
          Fucking well, nahu ... I screwed such a picture ...
          1. KSA
            KSA
            +1
            28 November 2014 16: 23
            In order to show that 5.45 is not worse than 7.62, it hits the target.
        2. 0
          28 November 2014 18: 27
          It seems that the militia in the hands of the SCS at 7.62 or not?
          1. KSA
            KSA
            +5
            28 November 2014 18: 39
            The militia AK-74, the SCS had a flame arrester.
    2. +1
      28 November 2014 09: 04
      I agree, some 6,5mm thread under the same sleeve was optimal.
    3. +3
      28 November 2014 09: 10
      Quote: erased
      Will a new caliber cartridge be developed, within 6-7 mm? In the West, this has already been done, although NATO is still firing 5,56.

      if the adoption of new guns comes with a creak, then about new cartridges it’s probably better not to dream. For example, 7.62x 54mm rifle machine-gun cartridge. was adopted by the tsarist army as early as 1891. Naturally, over the years of operation, modernizations were carried out, but in general it is the same cartridge. In the case of the transition to a new cartridge, what to do with the huge stocks of old cartridges? And of course, again, everything depends on the price.
      1. +9
        28 November 2014 10: 44
        Quote: bazilio
        What to do with huge stocks of old cartridges?

        Damn, it's good that we haven't accumulated "huge stocks" of cartridges for the Berdanks! request
      2. +4
        28 November 2014 13: 32
        And the main NATO pistol cartridge appeared at the very beginning of the 20th century - it was adopted by Germany in 1908. So what? The question is not when it appeared, but whether the requirements of the military will satisfy or not. and everything else is cheap boltology.
        1. +1
          29 November 2014 12: 42
          Quote: gross kaput
          And the main NATO pistol cartridge appeared at the very beginning of the 20th century - it was adopted by Germany in 1908. So what?

          Yes, no, nothing ... The fact that the 7.62x54mm rifle and machine-gun cartridge has a cartridge case with a hem is normal, although no one else uses cartridges with such a cartridge in the world, it’s not at all scary that the cartridge case creates additional difficulties in design ....
          Quote: gross kaput
          The question is not when it appeared, but whether the requirements of the military will satisfy or not. and everything else is cheap boltology.

          the military would have been more satisfied with a 10mm auto or 40 smithwesson cartridge or 357 zig or a lot of other cartridges that have higher combat characteristics. By the way, the FBI is actively using 40 smithwessons.
    4. The comment was deleted.
    5. +2
      28 November 2014 10: 58
      Quote: erased
      Will a new caliber cartridge be developed, within the 6-7 mm

      In fact, on the Internet "ran" infa that the Ministry of Internal Affairs once bought a certain number of automatic machines of a certain designer under the "cartridge of a new caliber, within 6-7 mm" for one special unit for testing. Whose development was also indicated. , and the data of the cartridge; but, mi, sorry, sclerosis! feel
    6. Rex
      +4
      28 November 2014 12: 17
      And who complains about 5,45x39?
      You can find a dozen opinions of active fighters, with experience of 10-20 years, who defend this cartridge
      1. 0
        29 December 2014 21: 15
        You can find those who want. everything rests on the conditions of use and the specific situation.
    7. +1
      29 December 2014 21: 11
      But it can be noted that reconfiguring production lines from AK to AEK can be very expensive.
      belay What are you talking about? what a reconfiguration, they are made at different plants, and even then piece by piece.
      Will a new caliber cartridge be developed, within 6-7 mm?
      such a cartridge was developed back in 1943, under the leadership of Fedorogv (yes, yes, that same developer of the world's first machine gun). The decision to leave 7,62 was the need to release new equipment.
  3. 0
    28 November 2014 08: 30
    AN 94 for specialists AEK for double basses AK for conscripts and with a cartridge you need to determine this for sure.
  4. +1
    28 November 2014 08: 31
    More weapons - more choices!
  5. +6
    28 November 2014 08: 38
    There is nothing reprehensible in adopting two automatic weapons. The cartridge is one. It will be cheaper and faster for plants to establish the production of an automatic machine of their own design. In the course of the experience of operating weapons in the troops, it will be possible to refuse an unsuccessful option, although each, for sure, has both advantages and disadvantages
    1. +7
      28 November 2014 09: 27
      Quote: Yoon Klob
      One cartridge

      Shops are also suitable.
  6. Fox
    +12
    28 November 2014 08: 39
    Yes, I’m here to host us, that they’ll accept us. I work with the guys at the school, they cannot buy MMG. No money. MMG costs more than the working barrel. For pre-conscription training, all of us are military.
    just boiling up ...
    1. +2
      28 November 2014 17: 52
      There is a school not far from "our synagogue", so they come to us and study to the fullest. Probably you do not have such an opportunity, it's a pity of course. Yes, the price of an MMG is exorbitant, I wanted to buy myself an MMG of Yarygin's pistol so that I would not "kill" the combat barrel during idle training. When I found out the price ...
  7. +2
    28 November 2014 08: 44
    Also, do not forget that the results of the contest can be affected by various behind-the-scenes processes.

    I would put this as the main deciding factor. The characteristics of the weapons do not matter, the main thing is who has the paw wider and higher ...
    1. 0
      28 November 2014 13: 36
      Exactly . A video has already been shown on the box and it sounds that the AK12 is better and he has already won the tests and the army is ready to buy 50000 a year. request
      1. 0
        29 December 2014 21: 18
        Well, in Russia 24 it was said somewhat different, both accept.
  8. +5
    28 November 2014 09: 00
    The closer to the publication of the results, the more information throws in.
    The intrigue is heating up ???
  9. arthur_hammer
    +7
    28 November 2014 09: 00
    in principle, there is also a "Kalash" balanced, a big plus for "AK" is a line of standardized models of automatic weapons AK-74, AKS-74, AK-74m, AKS-74U, "AK hundredth series", as well as RPK-74 and 74m, with the same Ak-74 (with an early version) it is possible to carry out an "upgrade" to the desired level beyond recognition, and for the A-545 and A-762 it is necessary to establish production (large-scale) and it costs money, well, they say that it is more difficult in production, for this reason, the AN-94 did not go into series.
    I think that the AK-12 will go to the troops and all other samples will be in limited operation in the "special forces"
  10. +9
    28 November 2014 09: 07
    Today we must make a final verdict, follow the news. I am for AEK.
    1. +3
      28 November 2014 09: 54
      Quote: heruv1me
      Today we must make a final verdict, follow the news. I am for AEK.


      I can't do anything with myself, I'm hooked on the brand to the bone, I'm for AK-12 hi
      1. +3
        28 November 2014 10: 38
        Quote: Nevsky_ZU
        I can't do anything with myself, I'm hooked on the brand to the bone, I'm for AK-12

        And if you take treatment with the "antibiotic" RGD-5?
  11. +3
    28 November 2014 10: 03
    One gets the impression that the Kovrovites offered a more acceptable option than Kalashnikov. Therefore, they cannot make their choice for so long. No wonder that the AK-12 was given time for revision. It's just that Kalashnikov is a world-famous brand. I read somewhere that Mikhail Timofeevich was hooked on the fact that someone was able to make a machine gun better than him, and given his authority, it is quite possible that the "Kalashov" lobby interferes with the promotion of AEK-973. But the fact that there are now two factories that compete with each other is very good. Maybe the Izhevsk people will really create a fundamentally new machine gun, and not a deep modernization of the AK-74?
    1. +6
      28 November 2014 13: 03
      Quote: Vishnevsky
      Maybe Izhevtsy really will create a fundamentally new machine, and not a deep modernization of the AK-74?

      To create a fundamentally new machine gun for powder ammunition is not realistic !!! for the entire existence of automatic machines, a lot of automation schemes have been worked out, but time has shown the viability of only a few schemes - gas outlet with gas piston (AK), gas outlet to the bolt group, without piston (M16), half-free shutter with rollers (G-3), and the same methods of locking by turning the shutter, skewing the shutter, again locking with rollers. Of course, the designers developed a lot of options for automation schemes, up to the crank system, the author of which laid out his invention to the public on this site. In general, until they apply the new physics of the projectile throwing process (for example, the railgun) or another principle for defeating the enemy (for example, the laser beam), it’s not necessary to talk about fundamentally new machines
      1. 0
        28 November 2014 20: 56
        Don't write nonsense about the M-16. Examine the material part of the weapon. The M-16 has a "gas piston" - this is a movable bolt larva located inside the bolt carrier. The gas outlet pipe is brought up and forward.
        1. 0
          29 November 2014 05: 37
          ... I do not know who the first is this nonsense, about the gas outlet acting directly on the bolt group without a gas piston in the M-16 wrote and replicated. Here, by reference, the correct operation scheme of the M-16 gas engine with illustrations and comments is described:

          http://www.e-reading.mobi/bookreader.php/1019930/Chumak_-_Esche_raz_pro_M16.html



          This design of the original M-16 gas engine allows minimizing the negative impact on accuracy during automatic reloading of the weapons of the moving mass of the gas piston, since the gas piston, which is a structurally integral part with the rotary bolt of the bolt, is aligned with the axis of the barrel of the rifle:
        2. +1
          29 November 2014 12: 51
          Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
          Don't write nonsense about the M-16. Examine the material part of the weapon. The M-16 has a "gas piston" - this is a movable bolt larva located inside the bolt carrier.

          Excuse me dear, you are right in part, it all depends on the interpretation and definition. Here is an excerpt from the text at the link that you gave below "First of all, it should be noted that the gas engine of the automatic rifle M16 and its modifications belongs to a rare type of lateral gas venting engines (BGD) - piston dynamostatic enginesdiffering from other BGD systems in that that they don’t have a gas piston as an independent part. Powder gas discharged from the bore directly acts on the bolt carrier and activates the weapon reloading mechanisms. "
          1. -1
            29 November 2014 16: 00
            The gas piston, as an independent part, is absent in the M-16, because the piston is the rotary larva of the rifle shutter itself. That is, the gas piston is in the M-16 and has not gone anywhere.

            Powder gases through the gas exhaust system enter the shutter frame, and do not directly affect it, without a gas piston. Everything is inside the shutter frame: the gas chamber is inside the shutter frame, in the cavity of which the gas piston with 3 moves O-rings, the role of which is performed by the rotary shutter larva itself.

            Everything was done in order to maximally combine the centers of mass of the moving parts of the bolt group and force impulses arising during the operation of the automatics with the axis of the barrel channel, along which the bullet itself moves, and the sleeve moves back under the influence of the recoil force of the cartridge when firing.

            Roughly speaking, all moving parts move along one axis, which helps to achieve high accuracy and accuracy of the rifle. Unwanted impulses of forces from the operation of moving parts of automation, which can lead the weapon away from the line of sight during the shooting process, are minimized and nullified.

            The rifle has no trace of any gases acting directly on the bolt carrier in the M-16 without a gas piston, according to some “sofa experts”. The design of the M-16 is much more advanced than it might seem to someone who has a poor idea of ​​how it works.

            Here is a link to the GIF animation demonstrating the operation of the M-16 automation:

            http://300blk.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/387bf-ar15-gasimpingement.gif

            You can do even better and Eugene Stoner knew this, and I mentioned how to achieve this on the site, but Stoner was prevented from doing so by the strict restrictions that were imposed on the rifle he was developing.
            1. -1
              30 December 2014 00: 00
              For several years now, a separate gas piston has been present on expensive piece models of small manufacturers, such rifles come from 2500 bucks apiece. the gas piston is not part of the bolt frame, it is a separate part, as on SVD or SCS. Learn modern equipment.
        3. The comment was deleted.
      2. +1
        28 November 2014 21: 21
        The author did not publish the "crankshaft automatic machine" on this site for sure, because this is an old German, if I am not mistaken, construction, the author of which has long been dead.

        Gryazev and Shipunov constructed an aircraft gun with a high rate of fire after the war on a similar principle - the construction was very successful.

        The Germans now have similar weapons.
        1. 0
          29 November 2014 13: 12
          Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
          The author did not publish the "crankshaft automatic machine" on this site for sure, because this is an old German, if I am not mistaken, construction, the author of which has long been dead.

          I meant this project here http://topwar.ru/25346-proekt-kompleksa-oruzhie-patron-gx-6.html. This is just a project, not implemented live.
          1. 0
            29 November 2014 16: 18
            Quote: bazilio
            Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
            The author did not publish the "crankshaft automatic machine" on this site for sure, because this is an old German, if I am not mistaken, construction, the author of which has long been dead.

            I meant this project here http://topwar.ru/25346-proekt-kompleksa-oruzhie-patron-gx-6.html. This is just a project, not implemented live.


            Because there is simply no special meaning in such automation for this class of small arms. This type of automation is justified in cases where a condition is required to achieve the maximum rate of fire from one barrel in automatic fire mode, as in aircraft guns. Rheinmetall from Germany offers an automatic gun on similar automation today. But she has an external electric drive, which allows you to change the rate of fire over a wide range. In the Soviet Union, at one time they took a different path and abandoned such cannons.
            1. 0
              1 December 2014 08: 49
              Quote: Mayor_Vikhr
              Because there is simply no special meaning in such automation for this class of small arms.

              So I said this - a lot of automation options were invented, but only a few schemes were widely used.
    2. 0
      29 December 2014 21: 21
      already tired of reading such unfounded statements .... am
  12. +1
    28 November 2014 10: 25
    It seems to me that the Kovrov version is better
  13. 0
    28 November 2014 10: 28
    In my opinion, AEK is better than a competitor. It's time to change the old man.
    1. +1
      28 November 2014 10: 30
      Quote: dimyan
      In my opinion, AEK is better than a competitor. It's time to change little old man.


      Did you hold the AK-12 in your hands? smile
      1. +1
        28 November 2014 10: 39
        I agree. Everything is known in comparison. AK is more familiar .....
  14. +4
    28 November 2014 10: 32
    Kovrov automatics with balanced automatics have a “classic” layout with front store layout. Automatic equipment is built according to the vapor circuit with the use of an additional balancer, which compensates for the gate pulse. During the shooting, the gas piston sets in motion the bolt group, which moves the balance bar through the gear. The latter is located in the upper part of the receiver and inside the gas tube.
    So in ak-there are a series of such machines with balanced automation to change the awl for soap ak-12 is the best choice
    1. KSA
      KSA
      +2
      28 November 2014 12: 41
      I agree. On the basis of AK-12, you can design a whole line of small arms, PDW, Carabiner, Machine gun of the RPK type. But based on the Kovrov automaton, no.
      1. +1
        28 November 2014 13: 59
        Yes, they already offered to replace AK Nikonov’s machine, nothing happened
      2. 0
        28 November 2014 13: 59
        Yes, they already offered to replace AK Nikonov’s machine, nothing happened
      3. +5
        28 November 2014 16: 04
        Quote: KSA
        I agree. On the basis of AK-12, you can design a whole line of small arms, PDW, Carabiner, Machine gun of the RPK type. But based on the Kovrov automaton, no.

        justify? AEK has no contraindications to shortening and lengthening of the trunk. IZHMash refused from AKSU, extending the 104th. Moreover, interchangeable trunks in AEK laid constructively. So what prevents to increase the thickness of the walls of the receiver and stick a machine gun barrel? Or pile Marxman? Justify your argument, please.
        1. KSA
          KSA
          0
          28 November 2014 16: 30
          AEK doesn’t have any contraindications to shortening-lengthening the trunk

          There is, namely, an elongated gas pipe.

          IZHMash refused from AKSU, extending the 104th


          That Putin showed a shortened ak-12.

          Moreover, interchangeable trunks in AEK laid constructively.


          From this place in more detail, there was no information about interchangeable trunks in AEC.

          So what prevents to increase the thickness of the walls of the receiver and stick a machine gun barrel? Or pile Marxman? Justify your argument, please.


          It is a gas vent mechanism with a counter-flow, by the way for a manual machine gun under caliber 5.45 or 7.62X39 aek would not be bad, allowing you to conduct intense fire. Marmaxman does not need a mechanism for suppressing returns at all, for a semiautomatic device.
          1. +3
            28 November 2014 20: 16
            KSA- where are you, excuse me, saw a long gas pipe? You do not confuse it with a balancer cover? The length of the balancer is not an axiom, it just can not be less than the shutter speed (subject to a gear ratio of 1: 1)
            About a removable barrel, it was read somewhere, or in an interview I heard. I’ll find the link.
            The AK-100 theme appeared earlier than the AK-12 years that way by 15, what does Putin have to do with it? Apparently I expressed myself vaguely. Izhmash himself abandoned the concept of a heavily shortened machine gun. !) 4th, shortening of the 12th series have a completely kosher barrel, which, unlike the "ksyuha", does not require a muzzle for automatic operation.
            Py sy - Ak 74M is the best machine :) AEK is just more interesting IMHO (that's why I protect)
            1. KSA
              KSA
              0
              28 November 2014 20: 49
              Yes, beguiled with a balancer cover.
          2. +1
            28 November 2014 20: 30
            [quote = KSA] From this place in more detail, no where there was no information about interchangeable trunks in AEC.
            [/ Quote
            you're right-the barrel is pressed into the sleeve. I admit a mistake
      4. 0
        28 November 2014 22: 32
        Here, here I am about the same. Imagine all some soldiers will be running around with new Kovorov machine guns, while others will be with old and tattered "ksyuha" ..... and how will it look?
        1. 0
          29 November 2014 04: 42
          artalex32010 Yesterday, 22:32 PM ↑
          Here, here I am about the same. Imagine all some soldiers will be running around with new Kovorov machine guns, while others will be with old and tattered "ksyuha" ..... and how will it look?

          It seems to me that you are confused with a beauty contest. What does it mean to look? We need a reliable machine with excellent characteristics, and not a beautiful toy.
  15. fess
    +2
    28 November 2014 10: 37
    I saw a video where a gear broke when shooting AEK (pushing the balancer forward). This is the most vulnerable point of the machine. I read, and I myself understand that this is a very unreliable thing. Heavy loads and pollution can damage it. In my opinion, this can put an end to this machine.
  16. arthur_hammer
    +1
    28 November 2014 10: 44
    victory will be for the AK-12, as in the 70s of the AK-74, there are too many factors in favor of the AK, including economic
  17. +1
    28 November 2014 10: 53
    Also, one should not forget that the results of the contest can be affected by various backstage processes, lobbies, etc.
    - it will be very unfortunate if that happens. Unfortunately, this often happened in the history of the Russian armed forces, and models and systems were far from being adopted due to their characteristics and qualities. But let's hope that the choice will be made impartially and as objectively as possible.
  18. 0
    28 November 2014 11: 50
    But is the AEK’s butt length adjustable?
    1. Petrovi42202
      0
      30 November 2014 22: 37
      Yes. Previously, he had a folding (it seems to the left) wire butt (frame), but now he is telescopic with two guides. In the photo for the article he is shown.
      1. 0
        30 December 2014 00: 08
        telescopic - not synonymous with custom. In those videos that I saw the mechanism (let it be called that), I did not see the adjustment. Although this is not proof that it can not be at all.
  19. CRP
    CRP
    +1
    28 November 2014 11: 53
    Quote: Fess
    I saw a video where a gear broke when shooting AEK (pushing the balancer forward). This is the most vulnerable point of the machine. I read, and I myself understand that this is a very unreliable thing. Heavy loads and pollution can damage it. In my opinion, this can put an end to this machine.

    I did not find such a video. Let's get a look.
    1. fess
      0
      28 November 2014 12: 55
      I saw this video from shooting about 4 years ago. I’m looking now, I can’t find it. If anyone finds it, I hope they throw it off in the comments.
  20. +3
    28 November 2014 12: 09
    Already got those who say that the army needs a simple machine. now is not the year 1914, and not semi-literate peasants are going to serve in the army, the level of the modern conscript quite allows us to have more complex models in service. The world does not stand still; we need a multi-million army that takes only a number; we need an army that wins thanks to tactics where the soldier is not cannon fodder but a valuable military unit.
    1. erg
      +6
      28 November 2014 19: 29
      A simple machine is needed primarily because a simpler design, more reliable in extreme conditions. More parts - more chances of breakage (especially small parts, the same gear in AEK), more thorough care is required. And then, all these modern models of small arms, hand weapons, even new ones (AN, AEK, etc.) are not more complicated than the same AK. There are more details, but the design itself, the principle of operation are simple. So semi-literate peasants will fully master them. Look at the different tribes in Africa, they know how to master modern weapons (I mean, first of all, small arms).
      A multi-million army is primarily a strategic advantage. And in tactics, a larger number of personnel always gives an advantage over the enemy. These are reserves that can be put into battle at the right time, or replace a battered unit with a fresh one (a battered one does not mean heavy losses. But a person has limits of physical endurance. If there are reserves of tired people, they can be replaced with fresh ones). Tactics is the art of fighting. To take a settlement is a tactic; to win a war - a strategy is needed. It is possible (and more than once already in military history) to tactically competently conduct battles, but lose the war due to poor strategy. A vivid example of Napoleon. A brilliant tactician, he tailored the strategy to his tactics. Impose a major battle on the enemy, where he will be unsurpassed. But as soon as he opposed a competent strategy of avoiding such battles (Spain, Russia), Napoleon loses the war. So, we need a competent strategy, well trained and armed, but at the same time in sufficient quantity of the army to have the necessary reserves, without which even an army consisting of super professionals is nothing.
      1. Rex
        +2
        28 November 2014 19: 51
        A Brief History of Over 40 Years
        There are 11 models at the competition.
        7 of them with balanced automation
        3 models (2 Izhmashch and 1 Kovrov) go to the "semifinals", 2 of them with balanced automatics.
        Two of them reach the "final" - the current AK-2 and a carpet maker with a balancer.
        Kovrovets recognized as the best, but adopted by the AK.
        About 10 years later, Kovrovets (already AEK in the company of others, is trying to replace AK.
        The competition is actually not finished, because leave AK.
        In the 90s, it’s not clear why, they elevate Nikonov and take the AN-94 into service, but quickly curtail production.
        AEK "quietly" is purchased in small batches. In 2006 the plant was transferred to Izmash and the production stopped.
        And here is a new contest - as it was not 40 years old. Again AK and again carpet with a balancer.
  21. +8
    28 November 2014 12: 11
    Quote: Vishnevsky
    I read somewhere the thought that Mikhail Timofeevich was hooked by the fact that someone was able to make the machine better than him

    No need to repeat stupidity.
    M.T. Kalashnikov repeatedly and publicly said that he would only be glad if someone came up with a better machine gun, whose Kalash was his - if only the Motherland and our soldiers would benefit from this.
    The direction of thought is surprising: for a new form - you need a new weapon. To look prettier? Are the photos of the numerous courageous "special forces" with AK-74 in their hands already boring to our "menager" from the army?
    In the courtyard of the 21st century ... Already by no means a fantasy, but real everyday life - combat flying robots (drones); precision missiles flying into an open window; guided artillery shells and other, and other ...
    Now the infantry unit must detect the enemy and direct support forces (artillery, aircraft) on him; and for hassles - AK-4,45 is enough for the eyes.
    It would be better if you attended to the radio stations!
    We use Motorola-340s 10-12 years old. They brought new Russian "Granites" for samples ... - a week later they collected them and returned them to the warehouse, scratching the Motorola back.
    In war, the main connection and interaction!
    But not an automaton ...
    1. +2
      28 November 2014 12: 39
      I applaud while standing. Many people look at the world through the prism of computer games.
      Quote: Leader
      Are the photos of the numerous courageous "special forces" with AK-74 in their hands already boring to our "menager" from the army?

      The same can be said about the 6,5 caliber, which has been introduced since the beginning of the last century, and will not be implemented in any way, despite all its "advantages". Some kind of childish approach. I personally like the concept of AEK, but I want 8,3 ammunition in the army from it and the intermediate and rifle machine gun will be good. Tokmo will be hard to carry. Although ... six months ago, they waved atomic batteries for exoskeletons. So hurray and go! wassat
    2. 0
      28 November 2014 12: 43
      What, "Granites" proved to be disgusting?
    3. Rex
      +1
      28 November 2014 21: 27
      If everything was so simple, then NATO wouldn’t buy massively rifle sights more expensive than rifles themselves
  22. +1
    28 November 2014 12: 35
    A bit off topic, here the "swift" failed the test barely. The representative of the CNI ... very categorically stated that something like - because. Without any comments. I do not presume to argue that this is not so, but the categorical nature and lack of explanations strains, which in turn give rise to all sorts of speculation. Oh, they really chose the best car, and not who has a stronger lobby.
    1. 0
      28 November 2014 22: 39
      Yes, the campaign ruined the "Strizh" .... Our military will have to run around with a clumsy PYa ....
  23. 0
    28 November 2014 12: 40
    A huge plus of the situation is the real competition of small rifle design bureaus. Given the many-million stock of AKM in warehouses in case of mobilization, for a new machine, firing accuracy + TTX + ease of use should be preferable to price. If this is of course a reasonable gap in valuebelay
    1. 0
      28 November 2014 14: 13
      Enough to reason with the templates of Marshall Shaposhnikov, who was not in the First World War and used the theory of "human waves" in practice in the Second World War, until by the 43rd he realized that he was an idiot. A person is much more expensive than a machine gun and it makes no sense to save on equipment. It is clear that the golden assault rifle is superfluous, but making an assault rifle with a high-quality barrel, with a high-quality cartridge, not saving on body kit and optics is a must! And the two design bureaus need not compete, but cooperate in order to combine the developments and create a really good complex.
  24. +1
    28 November 2014 13: 19
    Anyway, guys, I think that they will accept both options, for specialists Kovrovsky, as more accurate, and at the same time difficult to operate, but since specialists have a better culture of handling weapons, the problem is leveled, but for tankers, motorized rifles , sailors (in the general army) will be given Kalash. So we will see hi
    1. +2
      28 November 2014 14: 22
      complex, complex ... what is it difficult to operate?
      You can’t drop it? it is impossible to make out? afraid of water, mud or sand?
      What is the difficulty?
  25. AZ
    +1
    28 November 2014 13: 43
    except AK and AEK - what else is there to consider?
    1. +1
      28 November 2014 15: 30
      It would be nice to see Baryshev’s machine gun in this row.
      1. 0
        30 December 2014 00: 16
        and what good is it? there, only the shutter will cost more than the entire AK, its reliability is unknown, and personally I am doubtful at all. Etc. etc.
  26. +2
    28 November 2014 13: 52
    From the latest reports that appeared during this year, it follows that the Izhevsk machine gun was nevertheless admitted to state trials and again competed with the weapons of the Plant. Degtyarev. Probably last year's news did not quite correspond to reality, and the AK-12 was able to pass preliminary tests, but the military issued a list of the necessary improvements.

    For me, the situation is much simpler: the lobby, assets and reach of an audience interested in all senses, so to speak, at Izhmash / Izhmekh (the K concern, in the end) are simply incomparable with those of the Kovrov plant. That is, speaking in Russian, after the first unsatisfactory conclusions about the AK-12, the "designers from the business" simply brought to whom and how much they needed to the Ministry of Defense ...
    1. KSA
      KSA
      0
      28 November 2014 13: 54
      Not a fact, as improvements though clumsy were. Watch the first videos and the last.
      1. +5
        28 November 2014 14: 08
        So I do not deny the fact of improvements (unprincipled and significant, by the way), but I recklessly believe the statements of the responsible persons that the issue of admitting the sample to the second stage of testing was only in them, I would not.
        In addition, for that matter, no one interfered with Izhmash as an alternative initiative option to offer the same modified / doped AK-107 / AK-108 as a rival of the Kovrov sample.
        AK-12 is nothing more than tuning the old, proven AK-74M. Not a new sample, not a new design, not a new word in materials / alloys / composites used by domestic weapons - just tuning, which dozens of small custom firms do in the West. This fact is just a disgrace for a huge enterprise with its own design bureau, industrial school, etc. That is, to talk about a qualitative transition to a "new" machine gun, as in the cases with: "M-16" / "HK-416", "FN FAL" / "FN FNC" / "FN F2000-FN SCAR", "G-3" / "G-36", "Galil" / "Tavor", - alas, it's just not necessary ...
        From SW. hi
        1. 0
          28 November 2014 14: 25
          even the Chinese managed to create their own modern device
          1. 0
            28 November 2014 14: 30
            And for sure! recourse I completely forgot about the Chinese family "QBZ" - also a qualitative transition from the "pirate" heterogeneity that was in service with them (and even now it still remains in some places, yes in warehouses).
        2. 0
          30 December 2014 00: 32
          The AK-12 is nothing more than tuning the old, proven AK-74M. Not a new model, not a new design, not a new word in materials / alloys / composites used by domestic weapons - just tuning, which is done in the West by dozens of small custom firms.
          you already held it in your hands, dismantled it a hundred times, or saw the scheme of the automation? What fact are your allegations based on? And vet is far from the first time. Stop writing bullshit.
          Personally, I don’t know for certain how the AK-12 is arranged, I didn’t hold any drawings in my hands, therefore I don’t keep my assumptions with me, and I don’t express in accusatory speeches. ..
      2. Rex
        +2
        28 November 2014 16: 46
        It was necessary to give them to enthusiasts for a year - the designers would not have dreamed smile
        1. erg
          +3
          28 November 2014 19: 37
          Yeah, and to put players in computer games at the controls of aircraft and levers of control of tanks. Do not talk nonsense, designers are not dumber than these enthusiasts. Remember the beautiful work - the parable of the Lefthander, the writer Leskov. He savvy a flea, showing unrivaled skill, but after that she stopped working.
  27. 0
    28 November 2014 14: 33
    And what's the point of chasing the accuracy of firing bursts? So that several bullets enter one hole, increasing the stopping effect? So, maybe indeed to develop a new cartridge and dance from it? what How many I read the recommendations and watched the training videos, they always emphasize that the fire was justified in bursts at a distance of up to 15-20 meters and only then to create the density of fire in a sudden meeting with the enemy, push him to the ground, make him seek cover. Or at very close contact (at a distance of several meters), when one bullet is not enough to immediately neutralize the enemy. At large distances and during the transition of the battle to the positional phase, it is advised to shoot with frequent single shots. Allegedly, the fire is more accurate and you save ammo.
    1. 0
      28 November 2014 16: 31
      You are completely right! But for some reason we confuse the accuracy of firing bursts and single shots. If it’s rude, then the better accuracy when shooting single, the more accurate the weapon.
      Believe me, it makes no difference to a person 5,45 or 7,62. Even 5,45 inflicts more serious injuries. And this is not because of the shifted center of gravity, as many amateurs think.
    2. Rex
      +1
      28 November 2014 17: 18
      Fire in bursts makes more sense for a group goal - we build infantry, on armor, in the back of the truck. Seconds 3-5 - until they disperse / dismount / lay down. AEK in such cases, up to 100 meters, should be good.
      In theory, the balancer should increase singleness and accuracy.
    3. 0
      28 November 2014 19: 14
      so that untrained firing bursts fall
      1. -1
        28 November 2014 23: 35
        And where do you find untrained shooting at WAR? This is utter nonsense - 2-3 lessons with real shooting are enough for training in shooting, and even the Papuan from Papuan will learn to apologize, but war is not 2-3 training, it is a lot of a lot of puff-puff. Well, then the untrained person will most likely get when the bullets fly with a wide spread, otherwise he will dump the entire store in milk HUGE ...
  28. +1
    28 November 2014 16: 24
    Guys factory workers, send one. You are welcome! For my part, I promise a full report with video and photos.
    1. Rex
      0
      28 November 2014 16: 43
      If you REALLY want it, you can find a part where they are, well, and there "negotiate a test" winked
      1. 0
        28 November 2014 17: 17
        If you really want to, you can get a hat, for free - for free ...
        1. Rex
          0
          28 November 2014 17: 36
          With a hat, we always have a freebie. Our people are not greedy.
          By meeting you can get to the shooting range. Cadets are sometimes led by classes, although the demon knows where it is written
        2. 0
          28 November 2014 17: 37
          That's right!
          I ask because I’m afraid that the last contract is ending, but I still will not see it. Then drool on your retirement.
          A joke of course. Apparently the lieutenant did not understand. Or does not know what happens for such tests.
          1. Rex
            +1
            28 November 2014 18: 18
            I think they will not accept it. The third time.
            Concern "Kalashnikov" producing "dyagterev"? Hard to believe.
            There is little chance that they will accept Solomon and will both produce (like Mi-28 / Ka-52). Or, so as not to offend the Dyagterites, they will order 50-100 thousand and they will crawl along our vast.
  29. Owl
    +5
    28 November 2014 17: 13
    Due to its simplicity and lower cost: AK-12 is a weapon of "conscripts" and military personnel, for whom the machine gun is not the "main weapon" (air defense, aerospace defense, naval sailors, communications, etc.), for those who "perform combat (service and combat) tasks "is associated with actions with a machine gun, then for these servicemen (employees) an A-545 or A-762 may be needed, with a full set of" body kit "and various types of ammunition (the choice depends on the functional tasks: field; forest ; city; disembarkation on an unfitted coast, etc.). We'll see everything soon.
    1. Rex
      0
      28 November 2014 17: 40
      For "non-combat guns" and the 74th can be dispensed with. A perfectly normal weapon.
  30. +1
    28 November 2014 19: 16
    Quote: AKM9
    It will be, like the MiG-35, much cheaper and more efficient than a competitor, but as they say, it is not profitable for business to sell what is more efficient and cheaper, it is beneficial for it to sell what is much more expensive. The result was a fifth-generation fighter with almost over-the-horizon radar, but launching rockets with a maximum of 120km.

    Which aircraft do you mention?
  31. +1
    28 November 2014 19: 30
    So I don’t understand where the opinion is that AEK is complicated, unreliable, expensive?
    1. Excerpt from the patent (http://bankpatentov.ru/node/354820): "Automatic small arms (Fig. 1) contains a receiver 1, in which a bolt carrier 2 and a balancer are installed 3. The balancer 3 has the shape of a pipe. placed inside the bolt carrier 2, which also has a tubular structure. On the side walls of the bolt carrier 2 and the balance bar 3, uniform rows of through holes 4 and 5 are made, which serve to engage with the teeth of the sprockets 6. The sprockets are mounted on the axles 7 in the carriage 8. The carriage 8 is placed inside balance bar 3. It has an elongated part in the form of a rod 9, at the end of which there is a T-shaped protrusion 10. The counter T-shaped groove is made on the bracket 11. The end of the rod 9 is inserted into the groove on the bracket 11 and is fixed in it from falling out by a return spring 12 , for which one end of the spring is installed in the recess 13 on the bracket 11 at right angles to the profile of the groove. Since the narrow part of the groove is less than the diameter of the spring 12, movement of the end of the spring across the bracket is impossible.the spring 12, covering the rod 9, from the outside prevents it from leaving the T-shaped groove (figure 2). The other end of the spring 12 is pressed against the bolt carrier 2.
    The bracket 11 has a rigid connection with the receiver 1. For example, in this scheme it is provided with a rotary check 14 mounted on the receiver 1. In the locked position, the check 14 enters the reciprocal recess 15 on the bracket 11, preventing it from moving along the receiver 1.
    After opening the checks 14, the bracket 11 is disconnected from the receiver. Now, in the absence of a contactor, the entire block of moving parts is easily removed from the receiver, while maintaining the integrity of the structure (figure 4).
    The new technical solution was tested by JSC "ZID" in the manufacture of a new modification of the AEK-971 assault rifle. "That is, there are no additional balancers, the balancer is a gas piston that moves forward when fired, and not backward as in AK, and sets the bolt carrier in motion This whole structure is rigidly fastened to each other and is removed from the receiver as a single unit during disassembly.
    What's complicated is that, one additional detail in comparison with Kalash, a stud with a gear carriage and EVERYTHING!
    2. Admitted to state tests? Admitted! Therefore, everything is in order with reliability at the AK level, for our reliability requirements are more stringent than anywhere else and under AK they are sharpened.
    3. Where does the information about the cost of production of the product and its final price for the customer come from? What if he also turns out to be cheaper than AK 12?
    1. Rex
      0
      28 November 2014 20: 00
      At the expense of reliability is not true. "grandfather" AEK passed all tests.
      1. 0
        28 November 2014 20: 43
        So I'm talking about the same thing. And as for complexity, the same is not true, nor anything complicated.
        1. 0
          29 November 2014 07: 45
          I wrote on this topic. In the second company, the 971st was on trials in the special forces of the FSIN. There were no complaints. The only thing is, "do not give a conscript in hand."
  32. -4
    28 November 2014 20: 05
    In a real fight, ANYONE DOES NOT FUCK OR NEED A FUCK. Everyone needs RELIABILITY, RELIABILITY, CHEAP IN PRODUCTION ... Accuracy is the lot of sports competitions. But the gear used in the mechanism of this u.i.b.i. and from carpets is UNRELIABLE, AND SHORT-LASTING AND A ROAD IN MANUFACTURE ... Adoption, of course, everything will depend on how much and to whom it is unfastened ... But when, God forbid, a real war begins, and not another WHO is here and howling and think that it is better to have one machine gun with less recoil or two conventional ones, one with a mythical "accuracy" or two with normal accuracy, one with a gear resource a couple of times smaller or two without the stupid doubled gears ...
    1. Rex
      0
      28 November 2014 20: 52
      Although it still depends on the cartridge, the AK-74 averaged sample does not give a guaranteed hit on the head already at 300 m. At 400, roulette is generally.
      Why then the infantry weapon - if it is reliable, but not accurate, and she herself is not trained.
      And about reliability - I can throw a link to the failure of the AK-74M in battle
      1. +1
        28 November 2014 21: 42
        for AK to refuse, you need to use it in a completely swineish way.
        300m from the line of Kalash ... I would say that most are not more than 1 out of 20
        get from 200 meters single.
        AEK, on ​​the other hand, is able to remove some bias in the lack of training of soldiers and allows you to shoot more often with acceptable accuracy - in other words, to water like a hose, without risking greatly increasing the spread.
        1. Rex
          +1
          28 November 2014 21: 56
          I did not find immediately that story.
          If there is a desire - yourself on the author’s page.
          http://k-a-r-d-e-n.livejournal.com/
          And a photo of the AK-74M which refused to swine
      2. +3
        28 November 2014 22: 22
        Dear distance of 300-400 meters THIS IS ANY EVENT ROULETTE! The history and statistics of the clashes beginning with the Second World War and further says that the use of automatic weapons is effective at a distance of no more than 200 meters. The greater the distance with ANY ACCURACY AND SOFTNESS OF GIVING - not effective. And therefore, whether you will be shooting NOT EFFECTIVELY from a cheap and reliable Kalash or from an expensive unreliable but soft and heapy AEK WITHOUT A DIFFERENCE - IT IS COMPLETELY NOT EFFECTIVE, roughly speaking, in vain to burn cartridges. But when it comes to the need to make 10-15 million barrels, here you grab it and apologize for the back seat and don’t know where to get a LOT of machines and stuff to make these unfortunate gears in the balancing mechanism ... and the war will not wait until You will make your soft and heapy ...
        1. Rex
          0
          28 November 2014 22: 36
          Meant a single fire. According to a purely personal opinion (from an assault rifle / assault rifle) from 90% of cases automatic does not make sense.
          We are talking about aimed shooting, and not "barrage", "disturbing" "night shooting of the terrain", etc.
          In principle, I agree with the Germans when they identified for the STG-44. automatic fire efficiency distance up to 50 m.
          I also note that what was written about 300-400 m for the AK-74 (in my opinion) is not a design flaw, but a domestic culture (or tradition) of mass production.
          With a quality barrel, cartridge and assembly for 300-400 meters, there would be no problems.

          As was the lead to a normal battle with the AK-47 15 cm, and so far.
          For SVD - 8 cm, and this norm since the 30s
        2. +1
          28 November 2014 23: 06
          Then you crawl along such a street ahead of the tank, and at 300 meters in the window an enemy with RPG appeared, what will you do with your 200 meters of effective range? As a result, the tank burns down, you hit the enemy’s fortified position, then you will be bypassed and killed. All because of one oblique line.
          1. Rex
            +1
            28 November 2014 23: 37
            If this bad window has RPO or a similar formatting factor, then the infantry will not find it. In the open, he can even afford to miss 6 meters
        3. Rex
          +1
          29 November 2014 10: 16
          400-500 m working distance for firing at head targets for SVD.
          A contractor with an experience of 2-3 years from the usual motorized infantry reconnaissance will fall.
          With 200 m from the AK-74M with ancient Soviet optics - too.
          If the enemy is worse prepared, then 6 such people can kill the platoon.
          With the US MP with more than 200 m, they are already fraught with rifle duels to enter.

          You can study at war, but with a large-scale war, time is not allotted. After the Second World War, even the deadlines were determined - 2 months on the defensive, 2 weeks on the offensive. Then either a hospital or a grave.
  33. CRP
    CRP
    +3
    28 November 2014 20: 17
    Quote: erg
    A simple machine is needed primarily because a simpler design, more reliable in extreme conditions. More parts - more chances of breakage (especially small parts, the same gear in AEK), more thorough care is required. And then, all these modern models of small arms, hand weapons, even new ones (AN, AEK, etc.) are not more complicated than the same AK. There are more details, but the design itself, the principle of operation are simple. So semi-literate peasants will fully master them. Look at the different tribes in Africa, they know how to master modern weapons (I mean, first of all, small arms).
    A multi-million army is primarily a strategic advantage. And in tactics, a larger number of personnel always gives an advantage over the enemy. These are reserves that can be put into battle at the right time, or replace a battered unit with a fresh one (a battered one does not mean heavy losses. But a person has limits of physical endurance. If there are reserves of tired people, they can be replaced with fresh ones). Tactics is the art of fighting. To take a settlement is a tactic; to win a war - a strategy is needed. It is possible (and more than once already in military history) to tactically competently conduct battles, but lose the war due to poor strategy. A vivid example of Napoleon. A brilliant tactician, he tailored the strategy to his tactics. Impose a major battle on the enemy, where he will be unsurpassed. But as soon as he opposed a competent strategy of avoiding such battles (Spain, Russia), Napoleon loses the war. So, we need a competent strategy, well trained and armed, but at the same time in sufficient quantity of the army to have the necessary reserves, without which even an army consisting of super professionals is nothing.


    I agree. The smart and cunning, but not the skilled shooter wins the battle. Therefore, we need an automaton that will not require special training.
  34. +1
    28 November 2014 20: 31
    Quote: I think so
    In a real battle, NO ONE FUCK IS NECESSARY FOR COOLINESS OR SMALL RESPONSE. Everyone needs RELIABILITY, RELIABILITY, CHEAPLESS PRODUCTION

    In real combat, cheapness in manufacturing is generally up to one place, it is achieved by the size of the series, the larger the series, the cheaper the product in the end

    Quote: I think so
    But the gear used in the mechanism of this cbp from the carpet is UNRELIABLE, AND DURABLE AND THE ROAD IN MANUFACTURE ..

    And this is the basis for the assertion that they cut the gear with a file with their hands, that it is expensive?
    1. +3
      28 November 2014 20: 57
      It is not expensive, but its resource is many times less than the rest of the mechanism, the laws of mechanics work here. There is not only a bearing to reduce friction, but even bushings, for example, made of copper or bronze (I exaggerate).
      Consequently:
      1 carriage gears should be made of more durable alloys;
      2 If the gear is made of a more durable alloy and there is no bearing or sleeve, it will break the seat.
      3 Therefore, it is necessary to change the alloys in the manufacture of both the slide frame and the balancer.
      4 And this is a rise in price.
      Maybe that's why IZHMash refused to use balanced automation, since the synchronizer does not stand up, and will break faster than the rest of the mechanism
      1. -2
        28 November 2014 21: 19
        Replace the pin with the gear carriage mounted on it and that's all, fight on. To AK, after all, also rem. kits are.
        1. 0
          28 November 2014 21: 29
          As far as I understood from the patent presented here everything is pressed there.
          1. 0
            29 November 2014 01: 09
            No, not pressed, you misunderstood. Press all automation parts into one unit without the possibility of disassembly, can you imagine this?
            1. 0
              29 November 2014 01: 45
              Somewhere I came across a disassembly of AEK, so there the carriage was on the bolt frame on the sides and it was one detail.
              1. 0
                29 November 2014 02: 04
                On all the diagrams that are on the Internet, the bolt frame with the balancer goes as 1 part and they are connected to each other by a rolled cotter pin.
                1. -1
                  29 November 2014 11: 29
                  Here is a patent from 2012. http://bankpatentov.ru/node/354820
                  Here is a stud with a carriage as a separate part.
        2. 0
          28 November 2014 23: 11
          And here you are, under the squeal of ricochets, hiding behind a pile of garbage, you begin to disassemble the machine; take out the hairpin; remove the carriage; install the spare (due to the vacancy of all the quickly accessible places for the ammunition, the spare carriage is hidden not far from you); insert the hairpin; assemble the machine. Sec 40-50 at least, you can live a lifetime.
          1. +1
            29 November 2014 01: 06
            And before the battle, of course, no one checks or cleans the weapon. Replacing the stud with the carriage is certainly not done in battle, but on the eve, with visible signs of wear. In general, ZIDovtsy give a guarantee of 10 shots, and I believe them for some reason, apparently because they have been making machine guns and guns for 000 years and the culture and quality of production are at their best.
          2. CRP
            CRP
            0
            30 November 2014 20: 04
            Well, what are you such dreamers? Who changed something during AK battle?
      2. CRP
        CRP
        0
        30 November 2014 20: 02
        Yes, how much can you? The manufacturer said that the resource is the same as that of the AK74M. What else do you need? Well, wait and see, what is there to shout about reliability without knowing anything about it? An injector is more reliable than a carburetor, although before everyone thought differently.
    2. +3
      28 November 2014 22: 59
      If you say that an additional gear in any mechanism INCREASES its reliability and that making a gear is NOT EXPENSIVE than not doing it at all ... then I have nothing to argue with you ...
      Further, it is obvious that an automatic machine without a gear with the same series will be cheaper than an automatic gear with a gear ... or not, in your opinion?
      And the cheapness of weapons in battle is needed so that EVERYONE had an automatic machine, and not just one to platoon ... And if you need about 20-25 million for Russia, you’ll think about it and why the gear is needed there, which breaks down and the machine to make a bunch of machine tools at the factory ...
  35. 0
    28 November 2014 20: 54
    By the way, today it seems like the tests of the assault rifle for the "Warrior" have ended. Nobody knows who won?
    1. KSA
      KSA
      +1
      28 November 2014 20: 58
      Itself in anticipation, in any case, that the AK-12 that AEK - decent machines.
  36. +1
    28 November 2014 21: 11
    7.62 is anyway better, especially AEK.
    1. KSA
      KSA
      +1
      28 November 2014 21: 18
      This allegation is not based on anything.
    2. +1
      29 November 2014 07: 57
      What's better then? 5,45 has better ballistics (direct shot), penetration is better (I experienced it myself), wearable ammunition is larger, wound ballistics are generally without comment. Ricochet? Not critical. Look with what the FSB special forces "go to".
  37. +1
    28 November 2014 23: 43
    Also, one should not forget that the results of the contest can be affected by various backstage processes, lobbies, etc.

    As I understand it, the PR of Kovrovites began. All week articles about them .. or rather the same, only in slightly different words. see the competition comes to a logical finale. I just don’t understand why it’s so obvious and clumsy to PR (how ugly it is) and how it can affect it - publications on highly specialized sites.

    PS. from documentary filmmaking and memoirs for myself, I concluded that AEK in performance characteristics wins the Kalash and he d.b. to be adopted. Well, we can now, if the machine gun is really better than the AK-12, it will work. the truth is, probably, "bring" the right uncle.
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. wk
      0
      28 November 2014 23: 53
      here you are ahead of me with a similar comment .... the Kalashnikov concern supports Rogozin, who supports Kovrov is not yet clear .... AEK is definitely better than the AK-12 .... I think that the AK-100 series is better than the AK-12. ... in general, AK-12 from the series ... "let's update something, you just have to remember about the cutoff for the 3rd round, which at a rate of fire of 600 there is nothing at all about the 3rd bullet in milk, and about the countless fasteners that are on forend for example only worsen ergonomics.
  38. +2
    29 November 2014 04: 44
    Kovrov machine is interesting by its novelty. Real operation in battle will prove which machine is cooler. Reliability, fighting qualities. I was struck by one report, when the correspondent girl was asked to shoot, she lay down, and the line was in the chest target. I wouldn’t be able to from Kalash! Remember the Tokarevsky rifle of the Second World War. For some reason, the troops did not like her, but the marines - on the contrary. And the Germans loved trophy ...
    1. +1
      29 November 2014 15: 17
      Everything is in the approach to training a shooter. Believe me, with the right technique and the desire of the student and instructor, such tricks are possible from AK.
      Another thing is why 10 hits in the chest of the enemy? 1 - 2x is enough for him. It's just that we are fixated on accuracy when firing bursts. Although it is necessary to evaluate the accuracy of single. For example, modern sniper rifles, for which the accuracy of not more than 1 MOA (one angular minute) is accepted. If it’s rude, then the better the accuracy when shooting single, the more accurate the weapon.
      1. 0
        29 November 2014 15: 43
        Another thing is why 10 hits in the chest of the enemy? 1 - 2x is enough for him.

        You do not understand the meaning of high accuracy of fire bursts, no one is going to plant 10 bullets in the chest.
        If it’s rude, then the better the accuracy when shooting single, the more accurate the weapon.

        I propose to carefully look at this picture ...
        1. wk
          0
          30 November 2014 01: 06
          Sorry, I wanted to put a plus .... I also support CORD myself!
  39. The comment was deleted.
  40. +1
    29 November 2014 20: 33
    probably everything will win the AK-12, everything is easier
  41. +1
    30 November 2014 11: 57
    Aek disassembly diagram!
    1. 0
      30 November 2014 16: 35
      The scheme is a little outdated. They improved the design, now the carriage with gears is placed on the hairpin (in figure No. 3) and this is now a separate part.
  42. 0
    30 November 2014 20: 26
    Yes Good day.
    There is a question. recourse Not a gunsmith, ordinary “user” (soldier, cadet, officer): AKM, AKS74, AKS 74U.
    For the new “Ratnik” equipment, there are disputes about the characteristics and prospects of Kovrov automatic machines with balanced automation A545 / A762 and AK-12.
    In the first case (Kovrovsky) according to different sources, accuracy is higher, but reliability and use (maintenance), the price of the issue is worse.
    In the second (Kalashnikov), according to the same sources, it is worse with accuracy, a bit more ergonomic, easier and, therefore, cheaper and faster to establish an issue.
    Colleagues who practiced and used products from Kovrov and AK-12. Who knows the price, not in money, but in soldier’s lives. What’s your grade ?! what
    Connoisseurs of steepness, please do not be offended, this is not for you.
    I looked earlier on the topic under discussion. There is an interesting opinion.
    combat192 26 January 2013 07: 09
    In 1994 he studied at the courses "Shot". There, in the class of the history of small arms, for the first time I got acquainted with the Baryshev samples. Their performance characteristics and simplicity immediately impressed. The then teachers of fire training courses were delighted with this weapon. It remains to be hoped that the history of this wonderful weapon is not over.

    Look at the link, so shooting and disassembling. I think it’s interesting:
    http://topwar.ru/1531-kompleks-avtomaticheskogo-strelkovogo-oruzhiya-barysheva.h
    tml
    Your opinion? Maybe we’re in a hurry with a contract for a machine for the "Warrior" ???

    P.S. I post the question on the topic of AK-12 and on Kovrovsky.
  43. Vasily79
    0
    30 November 2014 22: 13
    The state-owned enterprise will win in any of 12 Kalashnikov’s concerns, and ZiD is just a small factory with a greedy and obese owner in the person of Tmenov (an evil Ossetian).
  44. +2
    1 December 2014 13: 43
    Practice is the criterion of truth. Let the military operation show the winner. And as you know, the ideal is unattainable. There is much to strive for.
  45. 0
    1 December 2014 15: 55
    Quote: erased
    5,45 cartridges do not fully satisfy the needs of the army. Although new types of this cartridge are being developed (sort of like). Caliber 7,62 - a step back (or not?) Will a new caliber cartridge be developed, within 6-7 mm?

    Such a caliber is not a step back, the whole thing is in the ammunition as a whole - the number of gunpowder, cartridge case, bullet. And with the creation and production of new ammunition we have a problem, especially for small-scale parties. IMHO without this essentially new weapon will not appear.
  46. +2
    1 December 2014 16: 48
    Now the 6,5x38 Grendel and 6,5x47 Lapua have become popular among our "probable friends". But these are mostly commercial cartridges. Re-equipping an army with a new caliber is very expensive. I believe that the 7,62x39 has not exhausted the margin for modernization. I don’t know, maybe the shape of the bullet, the composition and weight of gunpowder. You can work with it, and a lot will depend on the equipment on which these cartridges will be made. Disassembled once a pack of 7N1 (7,62x54), only two cartridges were with the same parameters. And it's sniper. Many people know the manufacturer.
  47. 0
    3 December 2014 13: 04
    this is what you need to stop trolling now
  48. RichardBee
    0
    4 February 2015 13: 52
    The best option for the "Warrior" - Kovrusha A-762 ... When will they give up this moronic caliber - 5,45 ?! Why the heck did they introduce him at all ?! In modern conditions of warfare, this is just a nut! Indoors, ricocheting can cripple or kill you, "in the field" even small grass takes this bullet out of the line of fire, it does not penetrate a modern bulletproof vest. So why the heck is a bullet ?! Why is the good old 7,62X39 so bad ?! Even through the bushes it flies smoothly, there is almost no ricochet against the walls, it pierces almost any protection ... Who makes such decisions there ?!
  49. 0
    15 March 2015 20: 19
    AEK-971 and A545 submachine guns were developed for using an intermediate cartridge of 5,45x39 mm. AEK-973 and A762 use a cartridge of 7,62x39 mm. In fact, these two “families” of weapons differ only in the type of ammunition used.

    That's the trouble. And since both of these ammunition are substandard, we will soon observe the next "rearmament". To Ratnik-2. Or they will come up with some new name. At its core, all these Warriors are ... not a good thing to do (I am writing this carefully).
  50. 0
    1 August 2017 15: 36
    A professional military, special unit needs a new weapon, depending on its purpose. Mass weapons are not needed yet. There are other problematic issues that need to be addressed. But it is necessary to develop.
    But if Zavaorukha begins, for "partisans" you can issue weapons from warehouses.