Military Review

In pursuit of stealth

134

The Russian Ministry of Defense has decided to start mass production of anaerobic air-independent power plants for advanced non-nuclear submarines (NNS). This was reported by "RIA News"With reference to a source in the military-industrial complex of the Russian Federation. "It was decided to mass-produce VNEU to equip future submarines of the 677" Lada "project. The tests of the prototype VNEU on the stand were completed successfully. The following tests will be carried out directly on the boat, ”he said.

It's time

The submarine is unique weapon. Appearing from “nowhere”, it can strike a crushing blow at the warships of the enemy, onshore facilities, sink a caravan of merchant ships, and then also dissolve into the vastness of the World Ocean. The only problem is how long the submarine can secretly remain under water. Modern nuclear submarines can not rise to the surface for up to three months. But diesel-electric submarines have to periodically float to the periscope depth on the 2-5 for hours to start the diesel and, due to their work, recharge the electric batteries due to which they move under water. Therefore, back in the 50s of the last century, in all countries of the world that have relevant engineering schools (with the exception of the United States, who prefer to buy rather than build naval submarines), the development of air-independent power plants (VNEU) began that would allow a non-nuclear submarine to remain at a depth of 15-20 days. And a huge market interest arose to this topic, since nuclear submarines can afford to build and maintain only a few states in the world. And non-nuclear submarines are now in service with virtually all states.

The “legislators” of fashion in this area are now Germany (which is not surprising, given the traditions of this country in the field of submarine building) and Sweden. Since the end of 90, the German shipbuilders have been building the 212 \ 214 project boats equipped with a hybrid power plant, which operates in fully automatic mode - without service by its personnel. It includes diesel for surface running and battery recharging, silver-zinc batteries themselves and VNEU for economical underwater running on the basis of fuel cells including cryogenic oxygen tanks and metal hydride tank (a special metal alloy combined with hydrogen). Equipping the boat with an anaerobic installation made it possible to increase the time it was submerged until 20 days. And now the German naval submarines with the VNEU of various modifications are in service with Germany, Italy, Portugal, Turkey, Israel, Korea and several other countries.

The Swedish concern Kockums Submarin Systems, in turn, at the end of the last century began the construction of Gotland-class submarines with VNEU based on Stirling engines. When used, these boats can also be under water without recharging the batteries for up to 20 days. And now the submarines with Stirling engines are not only in the Scandinavian countries, but also in Australia, Japan, Singapore and Thailand.

The French took the path of creating the VNEU "Skorpen", working on ethanol and liquid oxygen, which began to equip the boat type Agosta. Now boats with similar VNEU are not only in France, but also, for example, in Chile. In addition, on the basis of closed-cycle diesel technology, Italian designers created the VNEU for ultra-small and small submarines.

Thus, the use of VNEU is the main trend in the development of non-nuclear submarines for the last thirty years. They are simpler, cheaper to build and operate, and much more accessible to most countries than nuclear missile carriers. And equipping them with cruise missiles, such as the German 212 submarines or the Chinese Yuan submarines (pr. 041), makes these submarines a formidable influence on the coastal installations of a potential enemy during the "coastal wars".

Jump over the stage

In Russia today there are no submarines equipped with VNEU. The most famous third-generation NPLs of projects 877 (code “Halibut”) and 636.3 (code “Varshavyanka”) go, like their predecessors in the Great Patriotic War, on diesels and electric motors. Although the development of VNEU was at the turn of the 80-90s of the last century. But it was only possible to start putting them into practice when, in 2010-2011, our state really began to allocate substantial money for updating the army and fleet. Therefore, the Rubin Design and Design Bureau is the main developer of submarines in Russia, apparently at that time it began testing the full-scale bench model of the VNEU for both promising Navy submarines of the Russian Navy and for export boats.

Now, bench tests have been successfully completed and a new power plant will obviously be installed for further tests at the second (Kronstadt) and third (Sevastopol) submarines of the 677 Lada project, which are being built at the Admiralty Shipyards. The head boat of this project - "St. Petersburg", was accepted by the fleet into trial operation in May 2010 of the year.

And during this time she delivered a lot of headaches to both the military and designers. Including due to the fact that the diesel-electric power plant of the boat at the first stage produced no more than 70% of the declared power. However, by the present moment most of the defects have been eliminated and at the end of this year the boats of the Lada project, which belong to the fourth generation of naval submarines, should be officially adopted by the Russian Navy.

The export version of the Lada, Amur-950, will be capable of launching volley torpedo-missile strikes against sea and stationary ground targets from four torpedo tubes and ten vertical missile silos. Amur-1650 has an increased target detection distance compared to other existing sonar tools due to the presence of a unique hydroacoustic complex. Both modifications can dive up to 300 m. The speed of the full Amur submersible is up to the 21 node, autonomy is 45 days. Vibration isolators, an all-mode permanent magnet rowing motor are used to reduce the noise of the boat, and the boat hull is covered with Lightning material that absorbs sonar signals.

About VNEU boats, which will be installed on the export versions of the "Lada" little is known. Just like the Germans, it will be based on an electrochemical generator. But it will be fundamentally different in that the hydrogen required for the operation of the VNEU will not be messing around with itself, but will be produced directly on board in the amount of consumption by reforming the existing diesel fuel. Therefore, the Russian VNEU will be much more economical than the German counterpart, which will allow, for example, to increase the time the boat stays under water for up to 25 days.

In addition, the export version of the Lada, even with the VNEU, will cost less than the German boats of the 212 \ 214 project, which allows Russian shipbuilders to rely on lucrative export contracts. By the end of this decade, the Russian fleet expects to receive nearly a dozen new Russian non-nuclear submarines of the 4 generation by the end of this decade.

Author:
Originator:
http://expert.ru/2014/10/5/v-pogone-za-skryitnostyu/
134 comments
Ad

Subscribe to our Telegram channel, regularly additional information about the special operation in Ukraine, a large amount of information, videos, something that does not fall on the site: https://t.me/topwar_official

Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. azbukin77
    azbukin77 11 October 2014 08: 20
    +8
    Thank God we are starting to wake up! There would be more good news.
    1. Civil
      Civil 11 October 2014 09: 55
      +10
      15 boats at VNEU is cool ... very cool
      1. Dormidont2
        Dormidont2 11 October 2014 13: 50
        0
        and if hydrogen is extracted from seawater by an electrolyzer, the Americans seem to be experimenting
        1. e_krendel
          e_krendel 11 October 2014 13: 58
          +3
          and where to get electricity for him?
          1. jjj
            jjj 11 October 2014 14: 45
            +3
            A week ago I read that the Germans of the 212 project are not moving boats. Money wasted. And I was still surprised that it was customers from other countries who turned their nose off this boat, and they bought either the old 209 project, or not from the Germans. And there it turned out
            1. Demetry
              Demetry 11 October 2014 14: 51
              +2
              The Germans are now buying mainly 214 projects - the development of 212 projects. Mostly build licensed.
              And the 209 project is almost dead. Now only Indonesia wants to buy it but the licensed project for the construction of Indonesia-South Korea. The Indonesian people want the 209th project firstly from poverty, and secondly they already have 2 old boats of the same project 35 years ago. They want to prolong the pleasure)))

              so now the 212-214 project is the most popular project in the world for export.
        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. Maki Avellevich
          Maki Avellevich 12 October 2014 08: 16
          +1
          Dormidont2 RU Yesterday, 13:50 ↑
          and if hydrogen is extracted from seawater by an electrolyzer, the Americans seem to be experimenting


          Perpetum Mobile you get
      2. Demetry
        Demetry 11 October 2014 14: 44
        +1
        Until the end of the decade, just over 5 years are left. And on the slipways only 2 boats that have been built for 9 years !!!
        It seems to me that the author gives out wishful thinking (((
        1. Demetry
          Demetry 11 October 2014 14: 45
          +8
          Boats with VNEU at the moment 31 were built.
          Converted old boats.
          1) The Greeks converted their old submarine Okeanos S-118 project 209/1200.

          2) Portugal has 2 submarines of project 209PN received in 2010 of German construction. Tridente and Arpao. (Redone old project under VNEU)

          3) Pakistan built under the French license a boat of the Agosta type Hamza S-139 in 2008.

          4) Japan completed one of the Harusio-type boats with VNEU Asashio SS-589 in 1997.

          5) The Swedes in 1989 equipped the Nacken boat of Project A-14 with a Stirling engine.

          6) The Swedes equipped 4 Project A-17 submarines with Stirling and two of them were included in the Swedish fleet of Sodermanland (since 2004) and Ostergotland (since 2005) and two were sold to Singapore - Archer (formerly Halsingland) and Swordsman (formerly Vastergotland) in 2011 13 years old.
          1. Demetry
            Demetry 11 October 2014 14: 45
            +7
            And new projects were built initially with VNEU
            1) Sweden project A-19 Gotland. Three boats 1996-97.

            2) Project 212. Four boats in the German fleet S-181-184 (2005-07) and 2 boats in the Italian fleet Salvatore Todaro S-526 and Scire S-527 (2006-07 under license)

            3) Japan 5 boats of the type Soryu Souryu, Unryu, Hakuryu, Kenryu, Zuiryu SS-501-505. (2009-2013)

            4) And while the most successful German project is 214. The continuation of project 212. In Greece, 2 boats Papanikolis S-120 and Pipinos S-121. (first German, second licensed)
            And in Korea there are three boats Sohn Won-IL 72, Jeongji 73, Ahn Jeong-Geun 74.

            And its enlarged version for Israel, the construction of Germany, project 800-II. Tannin and Rahav (2014)


            And also boats from VNEU were leased.
            Denmark took Nacken from Sweden and operated from 2001 to 05 under the name Nacken.
            And the United States rented a Gotland boat from Sweden from 2005 to 07.

            At the same time, they are built or planned
            1) Japan is building a series of Soryu. There are at least 4 more submarines and may receive an order from Australia for 10 submarines of this type.
            2) Spain is building a series of boats Isaac Peral from 4 to 8 units. Headache should be completed soon.
            3) Italy completes 2 more boats of project 212
            4) Germany still completing 2 submarines of project 212
            5) South Korea is building 6 submarines of project 214
            6) Greece completes 2 more submarines of project 214
            7) Germany completes for Israel the third submarine of project 800-II
            8) It is possible to begin construction in Pakistan and Turkey of project 214 submarines up to 6 units each.
            1. Demetry
              Demetry 11 October 2014 15: 02
              +2
              Sorry, the Danish boat was called Kronborg.
        2. altman
          altman 12 October 2014 08: 42
          0
          In my opinion, it's good that "Petersburg" turned out without VNEU. It will now run in and eliminate the main "children's" shortcomings. Of course, so many boats will not be built, this is unrealistic. But the first two should be in time. And that will be great. They will also eliminate the imperfections with the engines and then it will be possible to launch a series of boats, possibly of another project, but with VNEU.
        3. bekjan
          bekjan 14 October 2014 13: 32
          0
          most of our promising strike and defense complexes were 10-15 years old due to many problems, including a lack of funding and combat personnel in the Defense Ministry. But we are already the 7th economy of the world as of 2013, and an intelligent Minister of Defense has come.
      3. Per se.
        Per se. 12 October 2014 11: 06
        0
        Quote: Civil
        15 boats at VNEU is cool ... very cool
        Why be surprised at the problem in production capacities, personnel, work for export, and, apparently, underestimation of the significance of these boats. If such boats, not 15, but 150, armed with long-range missiles of the Kyrgyz Republic, which have already been mentioned, their concentration off the coast of the United States would reduce the Yankees arrogance.
      4. bekjan
        bekjan 14 October 2014 13: 28
        0
        These boats are for the protection of our Baltic, and six Warsaw for the Black Sea fleet.
    2. Juborg
      Juborg 11 October 2014 15: 02
      +3
      The article is just an overview. The main thing is written with "Gulkin's nose!", Oxygen will be "obtained directly on board in the volume of consumption by reforming the available diesel fuel", and not bother with itself as on foreign analogues. Well, this is understandable, the development is still in development and is classified (probably until the moment of the first export ship sold!). Well, the fact that by the year 20 our Navy will receive 15 ships of this class alone is great and somehow invigorates, because this number does not reflect other types of submarines, both diesel-electric submarines and nuclear submarines. Moreover, if we take into account "Putin's missile surprise!", Then these (and other) submarines will be the basis of Russia's defense capability.
      1. Tirpitz
        Tirpitz 11 October 2014 15: 22
        0
        Do you yourself believe that 15 boats built in 6 years? While there is no one on such technology.
        1. SSR
          SSR 11 October 2014 16: 07
          +3
          Quote: Tirpitz
          Do you yourself believe that 15 boats built in 6 years? While there is no one on such technology.

          At one time, I was very indignant that they put the boats on the overhaul repairs and introduced that something new that prolongs the service of the boat for three years, it infuriated me until it was finally announced that all these upgrades would be repaired so that the shipbuilders would update skills, others learned something so that the staff already owning the topic would start work on building new boats. That something like this and it lasted not less than 8 years. So what they’re not joking with, and the shipyards have been updated, so it’s completely possible, but your skepticism is very appropriate.
        2. Sabroc
          Sabroc 12 October 2014 14: 18
          +1
          Dear I at one time was part of the first crew (we received submarines) 877pr, well, already then they were built like baked pies, and this was 87 years old. As I understand it, we are talking about equipping a new remote control with a well-developed project, so what surprises you? if they don’t stop financing, they’ll build it!
      2. saag
        saag 11 October 2014 16: 45
        +1
        Quote: juborg
        oxygen will be "obtained directly on board in the volume of consumption by reforming the existing diesel fuel", and not bother with itself as on foreign analogues.

        Well, firstly, hydrogen, and secondly, there is nothing secret here, I gave a link to the article above, the process is described there
        1. Juborg
          Juborg 11 October 2014 19: 23
          0
          Quote: saag "Well, firstly, hydrogen, and secondly, there is nothing secret here, I gave a link to the article above, the process is described there"
          You can at least show and know the process, but you cannot reproduce it. After all, the same German developments on this topic did not go into our fleet, but hung in the air from the 50s. The Germans have been using them since the 90s, we are a bit late. Here the main focus in technology and the ability to squeeze it all into a tight framework.
          1. gridasov
            gridasov 11 October 2014 19: 31
            -1
            Hydrogen is not an end in itself like oxygen. The main thing is to go through this stage of transformation of the substance, so that separation occurs. After all, no one discusses the temporary process of transience. Therefore, you can reproduce everything in real conditions. And the main thing is to get the effect in the form of ionization as polarization, and also to get the kinetic momentum of rotation on the installation shaft. Below I told you that the installation works in push-pull mode.
          2. Sabroc
            Sabroc 12 October 2014 14: 21
            0
            Yes, late, we have been late a lot since the beginning of the 90s!
      3. aksakal
        aksakal 12 October 2014 02: 13
        +4
        Quote: juborg
        The article is just an overview. The main thing is written with "Gulkin's nose!", Oxygen will be "obtained directly on board in the volume of consumption by reforming the available diesel fuel", and not bother with itself as on foreign analogues. Well, this is understandable, the development is still in development and is classified (probably until the moment of the first export ship sold!)
        - welcome! oxygen cannot be obtained as a result of diesel fuel reforming; only hydrogen is obtained from reforming. And oxygen is easier to carry with you, because it is very energy-intensive to extract it by electrolysis of water. There is nothing secret about reforming. If the usual combustion of a diesel engine occurs with the production of water and carbon dioxide, then in reforming a two-stage combustion of a diesel engine is implemented - first, in the presence of strictly defined catalysts and under conditions of an intentional lack of oxygen, as a result of the first stage, we obtain the so-called. "synthesis gas" is a mixture of carbon monoxide (CO) with hydrogen. All oxygen was spent on carbon oxidation, and not completely to carbon dioxide, but to carbon monoxide. Then, with the help of membrane technologies, synthesis gas is separated into hydrogen and carbon monoxide, hydrogen is burned in a fuel cell to generate electricity, and carbon monoxide is burned to carbon dioxide, and where the carbon dioxide goes in the submarine is a secret. That's all. Yes, if my "Japanese" jeep with a 3-liter turbodiesel worked according to this scheme, then it would hawala not 15, but only 4-5 liters per 100 km. Do they specifically launch such things in a large series? And if natural gas is burned according to this scheme - methane is also perfectly converted into synthesis gas - then RAO UES can be closed and disbanded, because in order to deliver electricity to your house, you need to increase this newly generated electricity to hundreds of thousands, or even million volts, and this is a special substation, throw it over high-voltage wires to your area, there is again a substation, more precisely, a whole chain of step-down substations up to 220 volts at the entrance to your house, this is all terribly expensive, 50% of the electricity is still lost on heating wires, maintenance is also expensive ... And here they supplied you with gas through the gas main, and instead of the Korean unit - the Rinai gas boiler (here I will upset you - Russian boilers are NOT COMPETITIVE !, because you regret the sensors and electronic control of the boiler, and this is real gas savings !) hot water + heating, you put the Russian three in one - hot water + heating + electricity with high efficiency, because gas is not just burned, but burned by gas reforming! Such a boiler for export - they will be enough with their hands and feet! Dreams ... Come on, honestly, tell me, don't move until the roasted rooster, in the form of a threat of lag, never pecks! some kind of thread the Koreans-Germans will adjust - you will then begin to stir, although you own the technologies of reforming and fuel cells. That's real - you live undeservedly well with your laziness, dear Russians! That the West pity you? I would have screwed up the sanctions for real, so that they would run around! UAVs were the first to start - and only now, the last to master! fuel cells were the first to be invented - VNEU for submarines based on them has just begun! Tin! You have nothing to be proud of with such laziness! I just go nuts! We would have such a scientific and technological potential in Kazakhstan - we would really not lag behind!
        1. gridasov
          gridasov 12 October 2014 12: 49
          -5
          I will depart a little from the topic and focus on the key issue.
          Judging by the style and tone of writing posts, you can determine the age of the participants in the discussion. So, that dear. Our grandchildren have a minimal chance of survival. And that's why. A frank warning bell for the layman is that Russia, in the person of the authorities, is investing huge amounts of money in the Arctic. Clearly why! But then you can imagine with all the complexity of the extraction and delivery of energy, what will be its cost. This means that the authorities are again taking a necessary step to preserve the country's single potential, which, if not developed, will instantly encounter such complex problems that will lead to the collapse of the vast country into uncontrollable small principalities. Let me remind you that the economic crisis causes unemployment and the release of the wild and animal potential of man. In the struggle for food and life, all its disorganizing monolithic state, forces are manifested.
          Already this year, Europe will be in a very tense situation with the energy supply ensuring the normal existence of countries, but let's see what happens in a year or two. The answer is one. World war is inevitable. The war for energy, because there are no other options.
          Conclusion. Developments like ours are no longer an offer. This is the last straw. Because when the situation begins, then there will be no time for reflection.
        2. Shur
          Shur 13 October 2014 01: 54
          +1
          Are we so lazy against your background or basically?
          1. gridasov
            gridasov 13 October 2014 11: 27
            0
            You're right ! Here I overdid it. But you can't erase words from a song. And nothing personal. An appeal to those who should directly engage in the search and implementation of "fantastic" ideas. Indeed, in my sincerity, I try to be at least a little useful to the MOTHERLAND. This cannot be taken away from me. I confess that forum discussions are a process of research and learning. I am learning to write, to justify my reasoning for people with different views. I study tolerance, tolerance. Therefore, I try to squeeze all the usefulness out of the situation. Therefore, others cannot be judged without reproach.
      4. spech
        spech 12 October 2014 17: 15
        0
        oxygen will be "obtained directly on board in the volume of consumption by reforming the existing diesel fuel

        is hydrogen possible?
    3. Vittt
      Vittt 11 October 2014 23: 48
      0
      Well, you personally wake up. VNEU in Russia is only under development! Perhaps the results are good, perhaps not. How do you know? It would be nice to put 6 Varshavyanks on the Black Sea Fleet for a start. With those cool miracle rockets that someone allegedly scared someone! For Russia, VNEU is still a minefield.
    4. ver_
      ver_ 12 October 2014 15: 14
      +1
      ... in the article there is no reference to who and when made this decision ...., so for now this is O B S ...
    5. Starik72
      Starik72 12 October 2014 23: 45
      0
      No, they’ve already woken up and even rubbed their eyes, so they started moving and gaining speed! The main thing is that different liberals do not put sticks in the wheels.
  2. Tiksi-3
    Tiksi-3 11 October 2014 08: 25
    +3
    even somehow I can’t believe it ... but this fruit has ripened for a long time and yesterday it was time to saturate our fleets with them ...
  3. Anton Gavrilov
    Anton Gavrilov 11 October 2014 08: 41
    +7
    Better late than never! Let's see how successful it will turn out! It’s interesting, but doesn’t Sarov mean by the stand here? There were rumors that the new VNEU was tested on it.
  4. calocha
    calocha 11 October 2014 08: 43
    +7
    It is gratifying that the Military Engineering Thought has not been ruined and the design bureaus are working successfully, or else there will be comrades!
  5. saag
    saag 11 October 2014 09: 16
    +4
    I wonder what is in the waste after receiving hydrogen from diesel fuel?
    1. saag
      saag 11 October 2014 09: 42
      +1
      Found 44 page http://isjaee.hydrogen.ru/pdf/11_06_Chentsov.pdf carbon dioxide and water
      1. The comment was deleted.
    2. Alex
      Alex 22 October 2014 22: 46
      +2
      Quote: saag
      But what about the waste after receiving hydrogen from diesel fuel?

      Well, it depends on the particular process chosen. Typically, the second component is CO carbon monoxide.
  6. Magic archer
    Magic archer 11 October 2014 09: 34
    +9
    I first read about VNEU in ZVO in the year so 94. The Swedes and Germans in all developed. We, because of the devastation of the nineties, lost 10 for at least a few years. But we Russians are stubborn. We’ll catch up and overtake!
    1. quote
      quote 11 October 2014 10: 09
      +8
      Not stubborn (ram, donkey) But purposeful !!!
      1. jjj
        jjj 11 October 2014 14: 47
        +2
        And we have not lost anything. We went the other way. Work was carried out even in the nineties and zero. Potanin funded. And, as it turns out, were right
  7. Ivan 63
    Ivan 63 11 October 2014 10: 04
    +8
    Of course, nuclear submarines should not prevail quantitatively in the submarine fleet. Thanks to "perestroika" and "new thinking", our Fleet has weakened incredibly and not only underwater, the adversaries have become insolent at the root of what are only provocations with fishermen and oil workers, and practically in our waters. Conclusion - build, but the most advanced technology.
    1. Wheel
      Wheel 12 October 2014 04: 19
      +1
      Quote: Ivan 63
      Thanks to "perestroika" and "new thinking", our Fleet has weakened incredibly and not only underwater,

      let's be honest.
      Perestroika and new thinking have nothing to do with it.
      But the young reformers led by a drunk EBN right out of place.
    2. Vasek
      Vasek 15 October 2014 23: 38
      0
      Quote: Ivan 63
      Of course, nuclear submarines should not quantitatively prevail in the submarine fleet.

      Only now I don’t understand why "explosive gas" on board a submarine is safer than a nuclear reactor?
      Unless there is radiation. But a possible leak of CO2 (and even more so of an intermediate product of CO) is also not a gift!
      1. Alex
        Alex 22 October 2014 22: 51
        +2
        Quote: Vasek
        But the possible leak of CO2 (and even more so the intermediate product WITH) - also, not a gift!

        Not like a gift - just a skiff. Invisible, odorless, perfectly miscible with air - it is simply the perfect gas chamber indoors. How they can think of this and implement - I have no idea. Even if there are some secret super-technologies for "afterburning" CO into CO2, the danger is immeasurable.
  8. raid14
    raid14 11 October 2014 10: 07
    +3
    We will make up for our lags in the military-industrial complex for a long time, thanks to Gorby with the conversion. VNEUs have been installed on western submarines for 20 years already. Swedish Gotland, Japanese Oyashio, Soryu, we have only diesel-electric of the Varshavyanka type.
    1. Anton Gavrilov
      Anton Gavrilov 11 October 2014 10: 31
      0
      There is no VNEU at Varshavyanki!
      1. raid14
        raid14 11 October 2014 11: 06
        +3
        And whoever says there is, you can read Diesel-electric boats "Varshavyanka" and western ones, equipped with a hybrid VNEU of the Stirling type.
      2. Bayonet
        Bayonet 11 October 2014 11: 06
        +2
        Quote: Anton Gavrilov
        There is no VNEU at Varshavyanki!

        ", we have only diesel-electric type" Varshavyanka "." - and where is about VNEU?
  9. brom
    brom 11 October 2014 10: 10
    +7
    And what does the picture with a German submarine of the XXIII series of the times of the Second World War have to do with the article?
    1. Bayonet
      Bayonet 11 October 2014 11: 09
      +5
      Submarines of type XXIII - a series of German small submarines built in 1943-1945. Often called “electro-boats” (German: Elektroboot), these ships, together with their larger counterparts of the XXI type, were oriented for the first time in the world to constantly stay under water, thus becoming the first project of not diving, but really submarines.
      1. Nitarius
        Nitarius 11 October 2014 15: 38
        +4
        ..My own research in this area began with this source, “British Intelligence Objectives Sub-Committee, 1946:“ The Invention of Hans Coler Relating to an Alleged New Source of Power, p. 2 "." It is reported that the device was started by development in 1933, and the technology for generating electricity was known in Germany 6 years before the start of the war. It is reported that in Germany found practical application of this device in submarines providing the latter with the characteristics of the submarine range as in modern nuclear submarines. But, the device, structurally, was much simpler and cheaper than nuclear reactors.

        --------------
        I talked with one grandfather about work, talked about the war, told him that I was interested in the secret weapons of the Third Reich, and grandfather told me an interesting thing. He turned out to be the old man on a mine minesweeper. In 1945, a submarine was seized in Poland at the pier, the guard was from the NKVDshnikov. Their minesweeper was engaged in towing the boat to Leningrad. The convoy was of seven ships! To the questions: what are we going to tow?

        --------------------

        And now for "Andromeda": the tachyonator is an evolution of the hexagonal tachyonator by Hans Kohler. Differs in increased size and power. And it is not single row. Produced at the Siemens plant, apparently since 1942, in small quantities. Conceptually similar to the Roshchin-Godin platform, but with increased revs and several rows. The boats on which it was installed are identified as pl XVI series.
        1. schizophrenic
          schizophrenic 11 October 2014 16: 04
          +3
          If I’m not mistaken, then the Germans used oxygen in cylinders and hydrogen peroxide, which greatly affected fire safety. After the war, this business died out because I did not really want to fly into the air, but work continued. Liquefied oxygen, however, is also a dangerous thing, in violation of safety regulations.
          1. Demetry
            Demetry 11 October 2014 16: 20
            +3
            Quote: schizophrenic
            After the war, this business died out because I did not really want to fly into the air, but work continued.

            Not stalled. The British built 2 of these boats in the late 50s and stopped.

            The USSR also built 31 submarines of projects 615, A615 and 617 in the mid-50s.
            The operating experience was bad, so these boats were called "lighters".
            1. Alex
              Alex 22 October 2014 22: 56
              +2
              By the way, the Germans were also not very happy. EMNIP, their combat use was zero. Like their "flight" counterparts, the Me-163 "Comet".
        2. gridasov
          gridasov 11 October 2014 16: 31
          -2
          Hello ! All issues are resolved quite simply if we consider the tachionator of Hans Kohler, and especially Schauberger, and Searle's developments. To all if you add the effects of Casimir and Coanda. In order to understand what the Germans created and what they achieved, one must be imbued with the content of their reasoning, namely the main inspirer, and not just try to understand the product itself. Therefore, we can understand why the Germans needed a lot of liquid metal. Even on the basis of what has been said, one can talk about many shortcomings of both Schauberger and Tesla, as the main developers from among the popularized. Without realizing this, you cannot move on. By the way, even the perfect one that allows us to argue so confidently actually does not belong to us. They do not speak loudly about this. Moreover, knowing how many spiteful critics will now respond to my post. We are ready to cooperate with everyone who is able to accept the completely unusual.
        3. Alex
          Alex 22 October 2014 22: 55
          +2
          I hardly understood what it was about, but most likely this is one of the boats with a Walter turbine for hydrogen peroxide. The project is so-so, maybe after long torment something would have come out of it, but the nuclear reactor put an end to this direction.
  10. Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 11 October 2014 10: 40
    +2
    A large number of boats with VNEU are a good help in the defense of our sea borders. But the nuclear submarine is an offensive weapon. A submarine with VNEU will not catch up with the nuclear submarine, only in an ambush can it lie in wait. Will ours not return to the concept of "submarine fighters" with nuclear weapons at speeds over 40 knots?
    At a new level of technology and automation, it would be a blow in the gut for mattress toppers.
    1. Prager
      Prager 11 October 2014 11: 39
      0
      I think that they will not return. it is too expensive, and there is not so much time for re-equipping the fleet with the latest ships of all the necessary classes - the arms race does not stand still.
    2. Dart2027
      Dart2027 11 October 2014 11: 45
      +5
      These are ships for different tasks. Nuclear submarines - operate in the ocean zone, submarines with VNEU - marine, or as an option as part of a squadron
  11. Ivanovanych
    Ivanovanych 11 October 2014 11: 35
    +3
    Very good news. Even 30 years ago, we were introduced to fuel cells as a prospect.
    1. gridasov
      gridasov 11 October 2014 12: 11
      +3
      They will say for another hundred years that tomorrow we will begin to develop. But this is a search for a black cat in a dark room. You also need to know that you are following the right path of research.
  12. yuri62
    yuri62 11 October 2014 12: 45
    -3
    something the name of the project fret is somehow not very for a submarine. whatever you call, it will float
    1. Vasek
      Vasek 15 October 2014 23: 45
      0
      Quote: Yuri62
      something the name of the project fret is somehow not very for a submarine. whatever you call, it will float

      laughing Well, there Zhigul - rides and does not complain!
  13. Demetry
    Demetry 11 October 2014 12: 48
    +1
    Therefore, back in the 50s of the last century, in all countries of the world that have the appropriate engineering schools (with the exception of the USA, which prefer to buy rather than build NPLs)

    It would be interesting to learn from the author, what kind of US NPLs have I bought over the years ??? I took for rent one for a year or two for rent. And which ones bought ??? Who??? Passwords, attendance .....

    Non-nuclear submarines are now in service with almost all states.

    Language as broomstick))) And how many submarines does Honduras or Thailand have? Do New Zealand have ?? Saudi Arabia? Bangladesh ??? You can still write a list of about 20 minutes ...

    Non-nuclear submarines are now in service with almost all states.
    Heh ... and that France, completely scrapped? Actually, this is much more active as a player in the export of submarines. And where are we on this list ??? There, Japan is about to be included in this list.
  14. Rostislav
    Rostislav 11 October 2014 13: 11
    +2
    It is high time. And the decision is not to take care of itself, but to produce hydrogen on board is also correct; this technology has already been significantly improved.
  15. ramsi
    ramsi 11 October 2014 13: 58
    +1
    it’s even amazing how little has been done in this direction, given that the gills allow quite large specimens to exist, such as whale sharks
  16. Andrey Yuryevich
    Andrey Yuryevich 11 October 2014 14: 13
    +5
    bye Anton Gavrilov hi only here, let's wait, the others will catch up, BEATING KAA for example, (infinitely respected by me), speak out, read, think ... well, don’t clog the branch with mediocre and stupid comments! keep quiet, you’ll get off smart! -national wisdom ...! the topic is undeniably very interesting. hi
  17. Nitarius
    Nitarius 11 October 2014 15: 41
    +6
    And then what is the cry about the "energy crisis" based on? ...

    In the late 60s, the Japanese government turned to us with a proposal to sell them the patent applications fund of our patent office for $ 100 million. The then Predsminina A. Kosygin convened a meeting, inviting a number of academicians of the Academy of Sciences. To the question: "Is it possible to sell our rejected applications fund to the Japanese?" they immediately replied amicably - "by no means!" Say, the sale of this fund can cause great damage (!?) Not only to our country, but also to others. Thus, this same “intellectual capital” was conserved, and certain scientific clans were given the opportunity to engage in a “patent gesheft” with impunity.
    Nevertheless, under the pressure of the results of scientific practice obtained at leading scientific and applied centers, the State Committee for Inventions introduced a special class in 1975: the pseudo-perpetuum mobile, which classifies really working experimental machines that have an efficiency higher than the efficiency of the Carnot cycle (or more than one). I will list some: No. 270059, 762706, 743145, 890534, 748750, 738015, ... (there are many of them). The ban continues to exist.
    This is possible provided that an extensive organization has been operating in the R&D system, with connections and control capabilities at all levels of government.
    ... In 1964, a closed Decree was adopted, allowing psychiatry to apply to all critics of the "holy" academic dogma. Confirming the inviolability of these "holy" attitudes, Acad. Lifshitz publicly declared paranoids to anyone who criticizes "holy relativity" and thermodynamics ("LG", No. 24/78).
    Let's think about the fact described in the article by E. Lenz (Theft of the perpetual motion machine. Today, January 14.01.2000, 1994), dedicated to the fate of the scientist O. Gritskevich, who worked in Vladivostok. It turns out that O. Gritskevich was engaged in a very promising development of a hydrodynamic generator with a KPI (energy conversion coefficient) of more than one, which made it possible to completely abandon fossil fuels and traditional systems. The development was approved by the Supreme Innovation Council. In XNUMX, O. Gritskevich was at a reception at Soskovets on the issue of increasing funding and speeding up the completion of work - he was refused this. He also addressed the premieres - the secretariats answered in the same way: the idea is great, but look for the funds yourself.
    O. Gritskevich's installation was environmentally friendly. As a result, the entire team of "paranoids", which together with O. Gritskevich was engaged in "anti-scientific" activities, were taken with their families to the United States, where they were granted American citizenship a month later and all conditions were created for the development of "paranoia" and the reproduction of "paranoid" students !!!!!
    In 1974, a six-stroke ICE was developed in the United States, having a KPI twice that of a traditional one. Essence: fifth step - water injection; the sixth step is the work of water vapor. Firstly, this engine had a KPI, obviously exceeding the KPI of the Carnot cycle. Secondly, assuming the KPI of a good ICE of that time to be 55% (our "loose" ones had 42-50%), then the KPI of a six-stroke ICE is more than one.
    1. gridasov
      gridasov 11 October 2014 16: 44
      +2
      All, absolutely all inventions, developments, etc. rely on physical effects, which are perceived solely as static forms of the resulting. And no one even thinks that many of these physical effects can and should be arranged in an algorithmic sequence. Only then can one plus only, as Tesla used to say, in the sum of positive extremes. Therefore, the same Zhe O Gritskevich clung to the idea, but did not understand the algorithms of what precedes and what should be in the sequence. On a simple basis, his team did not consider the process of operation of a hydrodynamic generator in the planes of motion of the stream in which the total energy of this stream is transformed. Their mistakes are obvious and justified.
      Conclusion. All physical effects should be considered not only as an independent result, but as a set of algorithms for the constructed physical effects, which give the final result.
      1. ramsi
        ramsi 11 October 2014 17: 10
        0
        if you don't even ask - where are these six-stroke engines (?), then it is highly doubtful that the fifth and sixth strokes will even come close to the "standard working stroke" (except that instead of water, liquid oxygen will be injected into the cylinders). However, all these "principles" with significant swirling masses can only be very auxiliary. A nuclear reactor - yes, it's close, electric propulsion is even better ...
        1. gridasov
          gridasov 11 October 2014 17: 24
          0
          The principle of operation of our power plant provides only two clock cycles. If you can call them that. By the way there is no need to carry out any reforming of hydrocarbons or other physical. chemical processes, since the kinetic energy of the stream is directly converted into torque on the shaft and rotor of the power plant generating electric. energy and rotor shaft rotor. By the way, the screw is built on the principle of this push-pull cycle. In addition, the power plants themselves generating electricity. energy is operated on new induction coils, which are fundamentally different from all modern ones. In the end, it is time to move from aesthetic design to the design of sequential, but built on different algorithms of this sequence physical. processes.
          1. ramsi
            ramsi 11 October 2014 17: 45
            +3
            I'm sorry, I didn’t understand a damn thing
            1. gridasov
              gridasov 11 October 2014 17: 59
              0
              Six measures are clear. and two are not clear? There is a compression beat and an expansion beat. Only the compression stroke occurs of one substance of the moving flow, and the expansion cycle is its new state. And very short. Both cycles are combined with the direction of rotation of the rotor so that the rotation is facilitated by the compression stroke of the flow moving in the desired direction and the expansion stroke was also used so that the radial expansion vector was used to rotate the rotor. Simple and clear. No valves or additional equipment are needed. For example, everyone knows the Hilsche-Ranque effect. And we created the same effect, but not in a separate tube, but in that device that accelerates the flow. Therefore, we do not have a proportional increase in the cost of energy capacity from the resulting effect, but there is a very significant increase in power on the rotor shaft.
              1. gridasov
                gridasov 11 October 2014 18: 04
                -1
                Everyone is talking about a super-single effect, and we are talking about a process that is repeatedly increasing in terms of algorithms, or a modified process development vector. The law of conservation of energy for dogmatists is not violated because the supplied kinetic energy is compensated by the potential energy of the transformation of matter. A very short period of transformation, but very significant.
                1. ramsi
                  ramsi 11 October 2014 18: 37
                  +2
                  I must have already drunk too much: a rotor - understandably, a rotation-promoting compression stroke - not understandable, both measures-promoting a rotation - brain explosion; Hilsche-Ranke effect - well, with difficulty ... air-fuel mixture - gas expansion ... If this is not a Wankel engine, then what?
                  1. gridasov
                    gridasov 11 October 2014 19: 01
                    +1
                    You, like any person, perceive the world through associations. Through what you already know. I dare to assure you that what I am talking about is unknown to humanity, well, in any case since the death of the Alexandria Library. BUT it is not a fact that this information was there. Why they don’t perceive me, when the conversation is about absolutely simple things, because no one has ever come into contact with this. For the past ten years, I have only been dealing with the history of scientific discoveries and inventions. Therefore, you do not reproach yourself. Already what you calmly listened to is a great achievement both yours and mine.
                    1. ramsi
                      ramsi 11 October 2014 19: 22
                      0
                      Okay, I give up, we will wait for "epoch-making" discoveries, although, as far as submarines are concerned, mechanics, anyway, should not rule the show
                      1. alex86
                        alex86 11 October 2014 20: 26
                        +3
                        Quote: ramsi
                        Okay give up

                        Do not be discouraged, it was a "stream of consciousness" not related to reality. Below are the 5th and 6th cycles when water is injected into the cylinders, the circuit is workable, but complex and thermally overloading the engine (imagine the water hammer that occurs when the engine grabs water when driving through a deep puddle). Therefore, all these ideas in violation of conservation laws (while with condescending phrases - "humanity has not yet matured" and others like them) not confirmed by real samples - amateurish exercises. It's just ridiculous to read. So I agree, we will wait for "epoch-making" discoveries ...
                      2. gridasov
                        gridasov 11 October 2014 20: 43
                        -1
                        You're right! Just keep in mind that we are not in a hurry to spread, don’t ask for money, we don’t need popularity. Smart would be wondering? It will be known who laughs. The illusion of excess oil and gas. You have a short memory. Last year, the media said that oil and gas would last for 25-30 years. Therefore, I recommend stocking potbelly stoves already. WE are talking about the industrial production of electric and thermal energy. Autonomous generators can also be built on permanent magnets. Yes, here is the problem. They are not subject to scaling.
                        Epoch-making discoveries from ancient times were faced with the effect of self-induction in the minds of the masses. Hundreds of years had to pass before a straw could be grasped at critical moments. Then the question became either -or. So, not many people will be able to live to see "epoch-making discoveries" with the mindset outside.
                      3. alex86
                        alex86 11 October 2014 21: 07
                        +3
                        I say, "stream of consciousness" ...
                        Do not be offended.
                    2. The comment was deleted.
                    3. Simple
                      Simple 12 October 2014 01: 07
                      0
                      Quote: gridasov
                      Why they don’t perceive me, when the conversation is about absolutely simple things, because no one has ever come into contact with this.



                      So Schauberger said.
                      -------------------------

                      We live in a world convenient for us.

                      We are taught from birth to live "right".

                      And only a few, faced with the unusual, try to look at the world in a different way.


                      1. gridasov
                        gridasov 12 October 2014 01: 32
                        +1
                        Exactly! My philosophy is not to deny anything, but to unite and contrast all the contradictions. The more there are, the deeper the possibilities will penetrate into the essence of the issue.
                        All scientists, of all times, were aware of the unity of numbers as measures. geometry as a vector connecting these numbers and physics, combining the first and second in the laws of transformation of what and how they describe space. In his constant transformation. Science must simultaneously move in opposing vectors — one vector in the expansion of knowledge, and the other, in their deepening, like compression. Only then is true knowledge of the world and of himself possible, as a creature capable of perceiving and analyzing everything that happens. I clearly see that a huge number of people do not understand how, but they feel cardinal changes both in the world of our existence and in the essence of our perception. And someone should be in the place that we occupy. I truly consider W. Schauberger my teacher. You cannot understand his device without getting closer to his way of thinking. Moreover, examining the path of its formation in the sequence algorithms of those from whom he studied, it is not difficult to understand the course and direction of his reasoning. Then all his developments become clear.
                      2. Simple
                        Simple 12 October 2014 02: 30
                        0
                        Quote: gridasov
                        All scientists, of all times, were aware of the unity of number as a measure. geometry as a vector connecting these numbers and physics, combining the first and second in the laws of transformation of what and how they describe space.


                        Uh ...

                        I will say more simply- Physics is a branch of natural science that studies and systematizes (for our convenience) the forces of the world around us.

                        And in the world everything is interconnected.

                        Science must simultaneously move in opposing vectors — one vector in the expansion of knowledge, and the other, in their deepening, like compression.


                        Science develops harmoniously - you will never see a leap in development.

                        Now it is impossible to make a breakthrough in physics without naming the fundamental premises for this, say, in biology, geology, genetics or chemistry.


                        You cannot understand his device without getting closer to his way of thinking


                        An original way of thinking is the engine of human civilization.
                        (Otherwise, they still ran with spears and used the language of primates.)

                        Then all his developments become clear.


                        With "everyone" - it's bold.

                        Take the "trout turbine" by V. Schaubergera - there seems to be a force that a person could operate with, but due to a lack of facts request .
                      3. gridasov
                        gridasov 12 October 2014 13: 31
                        -1
                        I will express my opinion that the whole development of mankind is precisely a pulsating process. Moreover, jump pulses are carried out according to algorithmic laws. And in this I agree that the harmonica must be seen in a slightly different way than it is permissible for us to do now.
                        You see, but modern methods of human analysis of the surrounding world are a direct identity of how we perceive mathematics, in the complex of what it is. This does not mean that it is imperfect or ineffective. It is like a "fruit" that must ripen to become useful for consumption. But! Modern mathematics is only part of the process of its formation. It is only suitable for the analysis of laminar and low potential energy processes. Moreover, it is intended only for the analysis of private, individually selected events. It allows for assumptions and tolerances. She is able to integrate and differentiate the events highlighted in the analysis. It is static.
                        However, contrary to what has been said, the world is always dynamic in everything. It provides for simultaneous events at all levels of scale and fractality. Therefore, we say that, to put it mildly, there are slightly different methods of mat. analysis. It is a mathematical analysis, as a language that you can share and communicate. This is the method that both Pythagoras and Plato spoke of. A method, if you can call it that, of boolean mathematical calculations in which the analysis is carried out only by integers and not divisible numbers and which form algorithmic relationships. And therefore, in a high-performance analysis of high-capacity processes there will be no errors or their accumulation. Etc . Working with this method also changes the very perception of the person who uses it.
                        You very accurately highlighted the moment that Schauberger did not have enough information material to comprehensively substantiate the "trout turbine" and others. A person of our time has more than enough information.
                        The conclusion and what has been said is that more important than the real discoveries of specific methods and devices are precisely those questions that I have just said.
                      4. Simple
                        Simple 12 October 2014 15: 48
                        0
                        Quote: gridasov
                        . A man of our time has more than enough information.



                        More than enough for what? To create (in our case)

                        "trout turbine"?

                        As if anticipating your answer: Then we do not have enough suitable "tools" to analyze this information - both physical and empirical, or maybe spiritual?
                      5. gridasov
                        gridasov 12 October 2014 16: 24
                        +1
                        Now, as humanity, we possess enough information to make a more realistic picture of the world in which we live and place. which is presented to us.
                        First, we lack the ability to self-esteem. Secondly, we lack the mathematical tools to see and perceive not the empiricism of our reasoning and correctly note the slogans, but the real mathematical circuitry for constructing highly dynamic events. Spirituality is like a base on which to build elements of perception and its expansion in new forms and forms. Most people live in the form of only their own, individual perceptions. The developed form of perception provides for a comparison of all participants in the life process and their harmonization.
                      6. Simple
                        Simple 12 October 2014 22: 17
                        0
                        Quote: gridasov
                        First, we lack the ability to self-esteem.


                        The question is - on what scale (criteria) should this very self-esteem be made: humanity does not want to put anything at the top of our beloved, so to speak, it (humanity) is the crown of Creation, and the rest is a servant.

                        From this point of view, we are considering everything, so to speak, constantly looking for evidence of this.
                        And in reality, humanity can be imagined as a person with a fanarik on a moonless night in the forest.
                        You can, figuratively speaking, "Turn on the light on the whole forest", but for this you need to have faith in God as the source of everything.

                        Humanity invented the wheel faster than it began to develop our "paranormal" abilities.

                        Secondly, we lack math tools

                        Rather, we lack an understanding of the picture of what is happening, and therefore, the construction of an algorithm of actions for the study of these processes.

                        Most people live in the form of only their own, individual perceptions.


                        We are all perishable, but some individuals are able to go on a thorny (for our standardly educated Ego) path.
                      7. gridasov
                        gridasov 12 October 2014 23: 37
                        +1
                        Humanity is an integral part of the evolving and constantly changing state of the planet. And not only its "living" part. A person's potential is hidden in his ability to perceive, analyze and embody his ideas, and it is significant. But a person is not capable of more than it is determined by his potential. Man as an organism is created for very limited conditions and the level of living conditions that are defined for him.
                        Faith in God is not rational. A more rational belief in the rationality and organization of the created world, which allows a person to develop and strengthen his vitality. Without faith, consciousness is limited by rationality. Faith allows one to comprehend unrelated events or something with which a person has not previously come into contact with. Belief in God as a cult image of ALMIGHTY is an association of the lowest level of worship. Faith is a necessity that allows you to expand the boundaries of perception. This concept is not static. Faith changes with the depth of knowledge of the world. In drawing the image of God, man is cunning before himself. Absolute honesty, sincerity and purity of perception are necessary. Therefore, faith in the rationality and rationality of successive changes in the world should correspond to the level at which the development of human consciousness is located. Otherwise, humanity will not jump out of its underdevelopment, which cannot be due to the hidden aggregate potential energy of man.
                        You must be aware that civilization is at the stage of its transformation. no one can answer we are moving from the past to the future or we are returning to our sources of perfection. But in fact, both.
                        Humanity has not invented the wheel. We do not invent or discover anything at all. This is an illusion. We open our memories at the time and in the period when it is necessary.
                        Obviously, I repeat myself saying that mathematics is the identity of how the world works and how the analysis system of our brain works. We are able to perceive only that. what are capable and what does not destroy us. Mathematics as a universal toolkit combining all the different thoughts and different perceptions.
                        Knowledge is invested only in that medium that is capable of performing all tasks in each link of the chain of events. The knowledge carrier is an intermediate link in the further dissemination of information and evolution.
                        A great many people with abnormal abilities. This is an indicator of human capabilities as a system device to the level of which one can strive and improve.
                        The same wheel is perceived by man as the contact of two infinite surfaces. However, the wheel is also a system of contact with space. With its infinite sequence of changes in the density of space.
                        Please do not take what has been said as my own reasoning. This is just an occasion to everyone for his own reasoning. This is just information.
                      8. Simple
                        Simple 13 October 2014 00: 05
                        0
                        Quote: gridasov
                        Faith in God is not rational. A more rational belief in the rationality and organization of the created world, which allows a person to develop and strengthen his vitality


                        It is not rational to the extent that it does not impatient.

                        A more rational belief in the rationality and organization of the created world, which allows a person to develop and strengthen his vitality


                        For a constructive understanding of the processes taking place in the world around us - it’s enough.

                        ... no one can answer we are moving from the past to the future or we are returning to our sources of perfection.


                        We cannot yet influence the course of time - "we have not matured, so to speak, with the baggage of knowledge." Although this has a detrimental effect on a living organism, but a local change in time at a non-biological object (for example, the blades of a turbine - after all, one of the criteria for determining the speed of a working medium is time).

                        ... to its origins of excellence.


                        This point - does not have clear boundaries, so it’s hard to say whether we have reached it. They themselves said that the development of mankind is a dynamic process.
                      9. gridasov
                        gridasov 13 October 2014 00: 41
                        -2
                        Faith is a constant of our contact with the outside world. Time is a sequence of events at all fractal levels of the world order. Therefore, our methodology of mathematical analysis allows us to construct algorithmic events in the form of the number of codes on all coordinate axes in a dynamic process and relative to the gravity axis or the precession axis. Since the system allows one to take into account dimensionality, multidirectional, and most importantly, simultaneous analysis of information expressed in mathematical definitions, time can be associated not as an exaggerated concept with respect to standards, but as a sequence of cumulative radial events for all vectors. Space determines the laws of formation and transformation of all fractal levels of information events, and time is a derivative of space, as the laws of the sequence of all these events. Through the properties of time, the very concept of time is also determined. Low potential physical. processes allow time to be used as a comparable quantity. But highly potential energetically related events are due to the absolute accuracy of the sequence of all events. Therefore, I am waiting for a refutation.
                      10. Simple
                        Simple 13 October 2014 00: 51
                        0
                        Quote: gridasov
                        But highly potential energetically related events are due to the absolute accuracy of the sequence of all events.




                        Try to consider the process of accelerating time in local space - around a turbine blade.

                        I'm on the side.
                        All the best.
                      11. gridasov
                        gridasov 13 October 2014 12: 40
                        0
                        This is what the conversation is about, that the methods of complex mat. analysis allow to consider the process in a consistent manner both in the gas-dynamic flow and in and on the surface of the outflow of blades or blades. And moreover, up to the effects of thermo-electron emission of the rotor. As well as the polarization of the entire complex and the turbine and beyond. Therefore, time is viewed precisely as a property of simultaneously occurring energy processes. It is impossible in any way to reunite such a number of interrelated processes other than and as energy ones. Time is a property of space and it needs to be "thought out". I'm not an assistant here
                      12. Simple
                        Simple 13 October 2014 22: 15
                        0
                        Quote: gridasov
                        Therefore, time is considered precisely as a property of simultaneously occurring energy processes.


                        You do not admit that with the acceleration of time, all processes that depend on the latter (i.e., time) are also accelerated, because everything that appears in this world is rigidly attached to time, as a condition of space?


                        And the concept of "Time" is interpreted in the same way as a condition for the possibility of changing the state.

                        Perhaps in the future, the method of mathematical analysis can be applied to the condition of changing the time, because to change the state it is necessary to fulfill a certain condition.
                      13. gridasov
                        gridasov 13 October 2014 23: 26
                        -2
                        Imagine with your imagination that changes occur in your body in every molecule of blood, food in the stomach, bone, tissues, in the change of thought - in everything that is due to the existence of the spirit and flesh of the individual. Everything changes not only in the molecules and smaller components of the body, but also in the environment in which it is located. But changes are occurring in various organs and systemic parts, that is, in all groups and functional associations. Therefore, quantitative and qualitative parameters are certainly changing. Each component is changing or transforming. But! This each component has its own transformation algorithms. And each group also has its own change algorithms. Tell yourself or ask yourself - is it possible to describe this totality of transformations with modern mathematical methods? But we exist, and this cannot be called an accident or chaos. So there is a program in the form of a method that allows you to orient all these changes in a certain direction and sequence. But the program is not empirical. A program is a system that can be analyzed and considered in the form of numbers, vectors. And not necessarily those symbolic signs that we imagine.
                        There is no doubt that everything has its time. Conditions must be created when the need for new knowledge becomes a necessity. For now, we are "sowing seeds" for which the time of "germination" will come. New people will surely appear, with new thinking, who will need only a small initiating "push" in order to continue the development of civilization in a new quality.
                      14. Simple
                        Simple 13 October 2014 23: 55
                        0
                        The process of transformation of a living biological creature is laid at the genetic level, and then physical and chemical processes follow, because this is matter.

                        The process of transformation of a non-living biological substance is subject to an ordinary chemical oxidation reaction.

                        But not about that:

                        So you touched on the issue of preserving the mechanical properties of a turbine blade in a thermodynamic medium.

                        My thought was: that with accelerated time (in one way or another), it will be possible to accelerate the flow of outflowing gases at a lower temperature of the latter (i.e. gases).

                        Here, there is no violation of the law of conservation of energy, because
                        to change time, energy is also needed - the point is that it is possible to lower the temperature of the outgoing gases without decreasing its kinetic energy.
                      15. gridasov
                        gridasov 14 October 2014 11: 45
                        -1
                        First of all, you are absolutely right that there are processes of transformation of living organisms and, separately, of the "inanimate" state. But also transformable, but in other relative comparisons. And at the same time, remember Plato. His deepest thought was the reasoning that in order to "unite" the unconnected one must go down - to go deeper to such a level of the state of these contradictions-opposites, in which one can observe general properties. The task is to find such a fractal level of the state in which contradictions are not opposed, but combined. Therefore, YOU are actually the first to focus on the fact that the phase of "decoupling" the reforming of hydrocarbons or electrolysis and other methods of water is REQUIRED. But!!! this does not mean that this hydrogen or oxygen must be stored separately. This phase of the algorithmic process must be passed, but it must be passed so quickly in a relative sense that the new stage is natural and harmonious in the sequence. The temperature should not be reduced in any way. IT needs to be increased. Remember where the so-called. "charges" in the capacitor. Everything is done correctly. The stream moves to a high temperature zone and this must be facilitated. But this phase must be skipped as quickly as possible. By the way, the highest temperature is during the interaction of hydrogen and oxygen. Simply there is a complex of effects that they cannot be combined in a bulk very "quickly". That is why we are talking about the fact that it is impossible to combine fuel and oxidizer at once !? , but the mixture already created in a certain state of stability can be "blown up" from the inside. "Blow up" each water molecule in its entire volume. This is because cavitation has many level states. But if the cavitation process occurs in its entire volume, then energetically it is more than any achieved level of explosion ever achieved. Once again, I note that the use of devices such as a screw and its derivatives as turbines is due to the fact that these devices organize the stages of transformation and the kinetic state of the flow itself and the potential energy of the substance of this flow. And if this is so, then "nuclear" or what else can be called the connection at the deep levels of fractality of this substance, is much higher than the kinetic energy of the dynamic flow. And this energy is not very difficult to get into control. And this energy creates an additional impulse to increase the same kinetic energy of the total flow. And no laws of conservation of energy are violated. As YOU said: "reversible processes are simply accelerated many times."
                      16. Simple
                        Simple 14 October 2014 23: 46
                        0
                        Quote: gridasov
                        And at the same time remember Plato.


                        To read his (Plato's) works, it is necessary to lead an appropriate lifestyle, which I did not quite succeed.

                        So quoting the works of Plato (however, you must admit, Plato could not always accurately express his thoughts in words) to the place is only welcome.


                        you need to go down - go deep to such a level of state of these contradictions-opposites, in which you can observe the general properties.


                        A Japanese proverb on this matter says: to get closer to a solution, you need to answer the question (on the problem) seven times - "why?"

                        ... YOU are actually the first to focus on the fact that the phase of "decoupling" the reforming of hydrocarbons or electrolysis and other methods of water is REQUIRED ....


                        Sorry, but it was not me.

                        Otherwise, it was interesting to read your comment.
                      17. gridasov
                        gridasov 15 October 2014 00: 19
                        -1
                        "It is not the most difficult to surrender to worldly pleasures and temptations. It is NOT the most difficult to leave them in a monastery. It is more difficult to stay in the world, but to live like in a monastery and not stand out." I am not quoting Plato. I decoded his thoughts, which were confirmed by his mathematical calculations.
                        I will argue about the WHY. We will never know WHY. We can only move and get closer to the truth. Try to answer the question: "What do those who have created or suppose could have created our world need and who are absolute in perfection?"
                        I repeat that it is you who first paid attention to that part of the question that I have raised. You see, I’m not only writing words. For each of which is responsible to himself, but also I play the contents of their meaning. This is a very interesting game to see who and how reacts to a word or phrases.
                      18. Simple
                        Simple 15 October 2014 00: 36
                        0
                        Quote: gridasov
                        It's harder to stay in the world, but to live like in a monastery and not stand out "


                        "Even an elephant can get lost in the city" - from Bhagavad Gita

                        Try to answer the question: "What do those who have created or suppose could have created our world need and who are absolute in perfection?"


                        But the meaning of the saying, I think you understand.

                        For the rest, nothing has fallen from me, it has just arrived. smile
                      19. gridasov
                        gridasov 15 October 2014 00: 45
                        0
                        I am honored to speak with meaningful individuals. I confess that I would even be somewhat satisfied to be reasonably "upset". I don't think I've crossed the tactful line yet. Moreover, I know that there are a lot of reasons to stop discussions.
                      20. Vasek
                        Vasek 16 October 2014 00: 02
                        0
                        Quote: gridasov
                        My philosophy is not to deny anything, but to unite and contrast all the contradictions. The more there are, the deeper the possibilities will penetrate into the essence of the issue.

                        Good, Gridasych!
                        Already everyone who tried to read and understand has overheated brains. Come on.
                        From SW. hi
                      21. gridasov
                        gridasov 16 October 2014 00: 35
                        -1
                        Well, what about the topic? Drive salt water into a closed cycle. We create cavitation in the entire volume of the flow, distribute the compression and expansion vectors. And you have a pulse on the rotor shaft, and a magneto-dynamic current generator and thermal energy, and you can separate hydrogen from oxygen for air. You have a full cycle of necessary properties in one device. I will not show the picture. Enemies soprut. But we are RUSSIAN.
                      22. Vasek
                        Vasek 17 October 2014 17: 19
                        0
                        Quote: gridasov
                        distribute compression and expansion vectors

                        ??
                        Any thoughts on the practical implementation of such a distribution?
                      23. gridasov
                        gridasov 17 October 2014 17: 40
                        -1
                        There are already working samples. True, they are leveled to a controlled level of production of only thermal energy. The truth is now sick and work has stopped. In fact, put an additional device on any rotating part and the fact that we say that with increasing speed the resistance of the medium increases is used to compensate for these costs. That is, the device and method does not break everything and everything. It blends harmoniously and expands capabilities. Up to individual application in the creation of aircraft engines on a new principle and reactor. In general, people need to be trusted. Sometimes, in the search for a needle in a haystack, you can get a lot of other useful things. It is clear that the fashion for invention also generates a lot of plagiarism and just scammers. But!!! There is definitely something worth finding and taking advantage of.
                    4. Andrey Yuryevich
                      Andrey Yuryevich 12 October 2014 07: 01
                      +1
                      Quote: gridasov
                      . Why they don’t perceive me

                      belay who does not perceive? Yes, I am happy to just read your comments! nice to hear the OPINION of a person burdened with intelligence, and not "hurray" slogans. hi
                      1. ramsi
                        ramsi 12 October 2014 10: 43
                        -1
                        no, well, "in general" it is clear: first the pot (with a rotor) works on a hot body, then on a cold one. For example, liquid oxygen was injected into the hot combustion chamber before compression - it expands, organizing the working stroke, then the rotor adjusts this cloud again to the combustion chamber and fuel (or hydrogen) is injected there and ignited - we have a second working stroke, after which we need to work out where something to put on the release cycle, but there is no compression stroke as such in both cases ... I doubt whether they thought about it, but a very intense thermal regime should turn out, and there are probably problems with balancing the clock cycles
                      2. gridasov
                        gridasov 12 October 2014 13: 42
                        -1
                        I'll give you a hint. DO NOT take "temperature" as some kind of abstraction identified with an exaggerated standard. Temperature is a dynamic state of the property of local space at the fractal level of interaction of magnetic force flows. Therefore, they can be analyzed as "energy density" or the processes associated with these changes. Then simple water can not only be cooled to a low reference temperature, but introduced into a state (very short-term), in which this low temperature can be compared with that which is simply impossible to obtain in another process. The same applies to the opposite phase of her state.
                      3. ramsi
                        ramsi 12 October 2014 14: 58
                        0
                        Um ... I'm talking about the fact that the rotor can collapse, and you - about the harmony of the world. In principle, I do not argue, of course, we know kutso, and we do it clumsily, and before God we are with our "poke method" ... But they will only take your "feng shui" seriously when they can touch something, not earlier ... And judging by the past tense, it's probably never
                      4. gridasov
                        gridasov 12 October 2014 15: 37
                        -1
                        I apologize. The rotor will not collapse because on the "blades" if you can call them that, an effect is created that counteracts the force that acts as a centrifugal one. I would call the effect of anti-centrifugal force. It is actually expressed in a change in the direction of polarization of this blade. Imagine that a centrifugal force acts on the blade as a stationary part of the rotor, causing an EMF. Well, it's easy! Each part of the blade moves at a different angular velocity. So the EMF vector appears. BUT!!! the moving flow of the outflowing medium creates ionization of the surface in the opposite direction. Remember how a spaceship enters the dense layers of the atmosphere. Where are the most intense temperatures? In short, this does not allow the emergence of the spin force and prevents the growth of the EMF in the longitudinal direction, which prevents the occurrence of thermo-electron emission of the blade material. All this makes it possible to overcome the rotor destruction thresholds, and therefore to increase the rotation speed many times, and therefore to increase the flow performance. Etc
                      5. Simple
                        Simple 12 October 2014 15: 52
                        0
                        Quote: gridasov
                        Temperature is a dynamic state of a local space property ...



                        Maybe all the same body in space?
                      6. gridasov
                        gridasov 12 October 2014 16: 34
                        +1
                        A body in space is its derivative. But space is formed by magnetic force processes. And the body, like all material things, is something that can exist harmoniously in these magnetic processes, while the objects themselves are always part of the interaction. Temperature, on the other hand, is a property of these interactions and has a very simple physical definition related to the density of magnetic force flows, which transform the relationship of external space with the local definition space of any material and non-material object as an information component.
                      7. Simple
                        Simple 12 October 2014 22: 29
                        +1
                        Quote: gridasov
                        Temperature, on the other hand, is a property of these interactions and has a very simple physical definition related to the density of magnetic force flows, which transform the relationship of external space with the local definition space of any material and non-material object as an information component.


                        That's interesting.

                        I would like to know more - would you give a source of information?
                      8. gridasov
                        gridasov 12 October 2014 23: 54
                        -1
                        Unfortunately, I am a direct link and the source. Nothing complicated is said. Analyze the largest possible amount of information, even from just public. We do not pay attention to the little things that are actually determining for the understanding of the physical. effects.
                      9. Simple
                        Simple 12 October 2014 16: 04
                        0
                        Quote: gridasov
                        DO NOT take "temperature" as some kind of abstraction identified with an exaggerated standard.


                        In your comments, the originality of thinking and approach to the issue is traced.

                        Unfortunately, I have to interrupt, but I’ll definitely stop by in the evening.
                      10. alex86
                        alex86 12 October 2014 22: 36
                        +1
                        Quote: Simple
                        originality of thinking and approach to the issue.

                        Undoubtedly. What is not observed is clarity of formulation and knowledge of the subject. And on one originality of thinking a la Zhanna Aguzarova (excuse me) you will not create anything new and efficient. I was especially pleased with the exercise about the need for an initial impulse ("first impulse"?) Which will not be needed in the future (it was in one of the comments) - well, just Petrik in its pure form - it's funny to read for a short time, but depressing. It is good that progress is not based on such "translucent inventors". Although without them "it's not so funny to live."
                      11. gridasov
                        gridasov 13 October 2014 00: 27
                        -1
                        I understand you . Nevertheless, not so many people. who justify their ideas with such confidence. Maybe I don’t have enough ability to substantiate in the terminology that you know, but I'm not at the presentation of my product.
                        I don’t understand why you were discouraged by the need to initiate the process. The balance of the steady state of the rotor is ensured by the fact that there is no kinetic impulse to the flow movement, but not to the rotation of the rotor itself. You should also initiate a generator with permanent magnets using the impulse of the applied push.
                        Besides, I’m not going to prove anything to anyone. I remind you that we are on the discussion platform. Where the dominant aspect is the presence of the idea itself and the tolerance of opponents. And then. You have not asked a single more or less specific question. By the way, Petrik is not supposed to be convincing to me either. And what does Aguzarova not understand at all. Such verbiage is inappropriate.
                        I will say more. I appeal more with facts that have absolute evidence that you can see, analyze and compare this information. I will give an example. For disposal of OM flooded into the sea, a set of measures is proposed that include disintegration processes, hydro-acoustic, cavitation, etc. BUT !!! This is all happening in our device. I hope you are familiar with this terminology. And our conditions are more energy efficient. Further, modern aircraft turbines have a key problem in that the need for a high temperature in the combustion chamber necessitates the cooling of the blades. Our device, however, displays the contact of the plane of the blade with the combustion chamber outside the plane itself. The same effect on the blades of submarines and Float means when cavitation effects destroy the plane of the propeller blade. So, what do you think is not a reason for interest. And this is only a small part of the solution. Moreover, the methodology for calculating the design is such that by any other means you do not even draw the basic device. So who is the talker.
                      12. alex86
                        alex86 13 October 2014 21: 35
                        0
                        Quote: gridasov
                        You were discouraged by the need to initiate the process.

                        I was not discouraged, just this is one of the signs of a perpetual motion machine of the second kind.
                        Quote: gridasov
                        the presence of the idea itself
                        just about, I would like to see her presence, and here she joins
                        Quote: gridasov
                        And what does Aguzarova not understand at all.
                        - despite the fact that the same imitation of thoughtfulness.
                        Quote: gridasov
                        I appeal by facts having absolute evidence that

                        Quote: gridasov
                        This is all happening in our device.

                        remarkable proof - "the teaching of Marx-Engels-Lenin is omnipotent, because it is true." Forgive me, I will end the discussion on this, since there is no sense in the stated gridasov, only a claim to be scientific with obvious signs of graphomania. Sorry one more time.
                        (... "Never think that you are different than you could not be, otherwise than being different, in those cases when it is impossible not to be otherwise" ... - but this association is not a compliment ...)
                      13. gridasov
                        gridasov 14 October 2014 15: 12
                        -1
                        Thank you for your tolerance! Let me just add that in one of your posts you mentioned that adding water to the turbine’s working process, I’ll clarify aviation, for special reasons can cause a water hammer. If so, then you are not quite right. The catalytic combustion of water has long been a known process. It must be carried out only in a certain sequence and in the presence of clearly defined conditions. Bakaev also used this in his methods. Everything is very reasonable and affordable. Surprisingly, his methodology was not widespread.
                      14. Vasek
                        Vasek 16 October 2014 00: 08
                        0
                        Quote: gridasov
                        DO NOT take "temperature" as some kind of abstraction identified with an exaggerated standard. Temperature is a dynamic state of a property of local space at the fractal level of interaction of magnetic force flows.

                        So I think, great ideas to "make money" on the difference, for example, temperatures (as already happened on the potential difference) are banally limited by the properties of materials:
                        Quote: ramsi
                        Mm ... I'm talking about the fact that the rotor can collapse, and you - about the harmony of the world.
                      15. gridasov
                        gridasov 16 October 2014 00: 44
                        -1
                        Do you want another idea? Just relax. A bearing with one row of balls or rollers is not actually sleeve bearings, but friction bearings. Here, take it and see for yourself what and where to turn. It's so obvious that you need another clip. Then a semblance of a SERLA device is obtained. And YOU brains "smoke" But this is the simplest engineering task.
                      16. gridasov
                        gridasov 12 October 2014 13: 35
                        +1
                        Dear Andrey Yuryevich, you do not take words so literally. There is a framework of the reasonable and permissible. Do you really imagine it possible that just what you can do is impossible. The open Pandora's box has two general aspects of what follows.
                      17. Dezinto
                        Dezinto 13 October 2014 01: 51
                        0
                        Thank you for being. Such a person. It’s your speech to listen .. well, just honey in your ears, interesting, informative, important, necessary ..., thanks hi heartily.

                        I copied myself because I’m dumb ... I need to re-read it a couple of times .. thanks, really! I haven’t heard such intelligible and clear words from the university ...
                      18. Dezinto
                        Dezinto 13 October 2014 01: 57
                        0
                        Let me cheer up your discussion .... smile

                        How can you argue with him? smile

                      19. gridasov
                        gridasov 13 October 2014 12: 46
                        -1
                        Well, Klitschko is not even able to say all this, not that he understood what was at stake. It’s like a joke. Its main property is timeliness. You can not pronounce many phrases in an unprepared audience. I admit that I myself use this method. Otherwise, I myself consider my speech as utter nonsense.
                      20. viruvalge412ee
                        viruvalge412ee 16 October 2014 20: 00
                        0
                        Sorry - this really looks like schizoid nonsense.
                      21. gridasov
                        gridasov 16 October 2014 20: 15
                        -1
                        Usually, if one's own mind is not enough to understand the topic, then everything is nonsense. Reasonable arguments are accepted, otherwise if they are not there, then you can argue who is dumber.
  18. Nitarius
    Nitarius 11 October 2014 15: 41
    0
    And then what is the cry about the "energy crisis" based on? ...

    In the late 60s, the Japanese government turned to us with a proposal to sell them the patent applications fund of our patent office for $ 100 million. The then Predsminina A. Kosygin convened a meeting, inviting a number of academicians of the Academy of Sciences. To the question: "Is it possible to sell our rejected applications fund to the Japanese?" they immediately replied amicably - "by no means!" Say, the sale of this fund can cause great damage (!?) Not only to our country, but also to others. Thus, this same “intellectual capital” was conserved, and certain scientific clans were given the opportunity to engage in a “patent gesheft” with impunity.

    Nevertheless, under the pressure of the results of scientific practice obtained at leading scientific and applied centers, the State Committee for Inventions introduced a special class in 1975: the pseudo-perpetuum mobile, which classifies really working experimental machines that have an efficiency higher than the efficiency of the Carnot cycle (or more than one). I will list some: No. 270059, 762706, 743145, 890534, 748750, 738015, ... (there are many of them). The ban continues to exist.

    This is possible provided that an extensive organization has been operating in the R&D system, with connections and control capabilities at all levels of government.

    ... In 1964, a closed Decree was adopted, allowing psychiatry to apply to all critics of the "holy" academic dogma. Confirming the inviolability of these "holy" attitudes, Acad. Lifshitz publicly declared paranoids to anyone who criticizes "holy relativity" and thermodynamics ("LG", No. 24/78).

    Let's think about the fact described in the article by E. Lenz (Theft of the perpetual motion machine. Today, January 14.01.2000, 1994), dedicated to the fate of the scientist O. Gritskevich, who worked in Vladivostok. It turns out that O. Gritskevich was engaged in a very promising development of a hydrodynamic generator with a KPI (energy conversion coefficient) of more than one, which made it possible to completely abandon fossil fuels and traditional systems. The development was approved by the Supreme Innovation Council. In XNUMX, O. Gritskevich was at a reception at Soskovets on the issue of increasing funding and speeding up the completion of work - he was refused this. He also addressed the premieres - the secretariats answered in the same way: the idea is great, but look for the funds yourself.

    O. Gritskevich's installation was environmentally friendly. As a result, the entire team of "paranoids", which together with O. Gritskevich was engaged in "anti-scientific" activities, were taken with their families to the United States, where they were granted American citizenship a month later and all conditions were created for the development of "paranoia" and the reproduction of "paranoid" students !!!!!

    In 1974, a six-stroke ICE was developed in the United States, having a KPI twice that of a traditional one. Essence: fifth step - water injection; the sixth step is the work of water vapor. Firstly, this engine had a KPI, obviously exceeding the KPI of the Carnot cycle. Secondly, assuming the KPI of a good ICE of that time to be 55% (our "loose" ones had 42-50%), then the KPI of a six-stroke ICE is more than one.
  19. Nitarius
    Nitarius 11 October 2014 15: 42
    +3

    In the 30s, Shell announced a tender to create a car with minimal fuel consumption. “Forget it,” even before the war, “Studebakers” were created with a fuel consumption of 5,5 liters per 100 km. The record belongs to the Japanese - in 1986, a specially created car they consumed per 100 km in total ... 0,055 liters of gasoline (about 44 grams). I hope it is clear that there are no factories producing such engines today.

    It is clear that all these internal combustion engines have an efficiency greater than the “unattainable” efficiency of the Carnot cycle. This also follows from the principle of operation of refrigerators. V. Zysina, working on the invented "triangular cycles". These refrigerators were produced in small batches since 1962 and during their work did not require an external supply of energy at all (see his publication 1962). In 1978, Doctor of Technical Sciences V. Zysin was issued auth. St. No. 591667 for a really working non-power refrigerator that produces cold due to the heat of the cooled bodies. But ... refrigerators were discontinued and "forgotten."

    As another example of the withdrawal of scientific achievements from a scientific appeal, I will provide a certificate of discovery No. 13 dated 18.12.62/XNUMX/XNUMX, "Regularity of energy transfer upon impact," which allows creating a mechanical "perpetuum mobile." The discovery proves that the classical theory of impact does not have a place in practice and that the energy of a body rebound after impact may be greater than its energy before impact.
  20. Nitarius
    Nitarius 11 October 2014 15: 43
    +1
    And then what is the cry about the "energy crisis" based on? ...

    In the late 60s, the Japanese government turned to us with a proposal to sell them the patent applications fund of our patent office for $ 100 million. The then Predsminina A. Kosygin convened a meeting, inviting a number of academicians of the Academy of Sciences. To the question: "Is it possible to sell our rejected applications fund to the Japanese?" they immediately replied amicably - "by no means!" Say, the sale of this fund can cause great damage (!?) Not only to our country, but also to others. Thus, this same “intellectual capital” was conserved, and certain scientific clans were given the opportunity to engage in a “patent gesheft” with impunity.

    Nevertheless, under the pressure of the results of scientific practice obtained at leading scientific and applied centers, the State Committee for Inventions introduced a special class in 1975: the pseudo-perpetuum mobile, which classifies really working experimental machines that have an efficiency higher than the efficiency of the Carnot cycle (or more than one). I will list some: No. 270059, 762706, 743145, 890534, 748750, 738015, ... (there are many of them). The ban continues to exist.

    This is possible provided that an extensive organization has been operating in the R&D system, with connections and control capabilities at all levels of government.

    ... In 1964, a closed Decree was adopted, allowing psychiatry to apply to all critics of the "holy" academic dogma. Confirming the inviolability of these "holy" attitudes, Acad. Lifshitz publicly declared paranoids to anyone who criticizes "holy relativity" and thermodynamics ("LG", No. 24/78).

    Let's think about the fact described in the article by E. Lenz (Theft of the perpetual motion machine. Today, January 14.01.2000, 1994), dedicated to the fate of the scientist O. Gritskevich, who worked in Vladivostok. It turns out that O. Gritskevich was engaged in a very promising development of a hydrodynamic generator with a KPI (energy conversion coefficient) of more than one, which made it possible to completely abandon fossil fuels and traditional systems. The development was approved by the Supreme Innovation Council. In XNUMX, O. Gritskevich was at a reception at Soskovets on the issue of increasing funding and speeding up the completion of work - he was refused this. He also addressed the premieres - the secretariats answered in the same way: the idea is great, but look for the funds yourself.

    O. Gritskevich's installation was environmentally friendly. As a result, the entire team of "paranoids", which together with O. Gritskevich was engaged in "anti-scientific" activities, were taken with their families to the United States, where they were granted American citizenship a month later and all conditions were created for the development of "paranoia" and the reproduction of "paranoid" students !!!!!

    In 1974, a six-stroke ICE was developed in the United States, having a KPI twice that of a traditional one. Essence: fifth step - water injection; the sixth step is the work of water vapor. Firstly, this engine had a KPI, obviously exceeding the KPI of the Carnot cycle. Secondly, assuming the KPI of a good ICE of that time to be 55% (our "loose" ones had 42-50%), then the KPI of a six-stroke ICE is more than one.
    1. bubalik
      bubalik 11 October 2014 16: 01
      +1
      Nitarius (2) S.U.


      ,,, the use of these technologies will not be allowed (owners of gas, oil, coal) (states) never ,,, because they will lose the main Power ,,,
    2. The comment was deleted.
  21. NKVD
    NKVD 11 October 2014 16: 06
    0
    It has long been time to equip Stirling engines
  22. gridasov
    gridasov 11 October 2014 19: 16
    -1
    For "jagdpanzer". Not a very convenient service. We have to look for someone to answer.
    Of course, we need an initiating impulse. With certain geometric parameters, the work process is self-stabilizing. That is, it is not self-destructive. the installation reaches the operating level and works without supplying energy. But in a closed loop, it is self-tuning. In an open system interconnected with the environment, the relationship with the supplied energy is in a more flexible relationship.
    1. Wheel
      Wheel 12 October 2014 04: 43
      +1
      Hmm, I wonder what did some fellow speakers zealously have here at the physics school?
  23. Quadra
    Quadra 11 October 2014 19: 18
    0
    It is very interesting that some people use the Stirling engine for this. I am not a connoisseur of naval weapons and it somehow did not get into my vision. And so - the engine is the most interesting - you just need a difference in the temperature of the coolant to work. In the 70s, even automakers experimented in this direction, but since it is still not suitable for installation on a car, although it is really "all-fuel" - it will work from the combustion of any fuel. But not only this, from any heat source - it can be successfully used to create small power plants with geothermal sources, and even in open space - there is the greatest temperature difference. But what exactly they decided to use on submarines is new and interesting for me.
  24. Evgeniy667b
    Evgeniy667b 11 October 2014 20: 15
    +3
    There is a traditional manic tendency. There are no boats yet, but only there will be, and already thoughts about trade, export. Quite all the details in the Shipbuilding Corporation. The world is on the verge of hot Events. And they are just grandmothers. Is it not otherwise how, by order of the US State Department, they work to weaken their own Russian Navy, by squandering the ship?
  25. voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 11 October 2014 21: 34
    +3
    It seems like two weeks you can go underwater
    without recharging.
    1. Wiruz
      Wiruz 11 October 2014 22: 08
      0
      Well, it depends on what speed. If you try, then the batteries on 636 can be planted and back
  26. Wiruz
    Wiruz 11 October 2014 22: 06
    +1
    You should not drive a submarine for export from the 10th VPU under the Kyrgyz Republic. IMHO. It’s almost Virginia. Or first at least get these boats themselves. On the BF, such would be very useful good
  27. zabr
    zabr 12 October 2014 02: 10
    +1
    here, when discussing, many people miss the point that Stirling engines have a low noise level during operation, which can’t be said about a diesel engine ... therefore for a submarine this is the thing ...
  28. barbiturate
    barbiturate 12 October 2014 08: 56
    0
    Recently, there was an article saying that the Japanese are abandoning anaerobic control units such as the Stirling engine in favor of a sharp increase in battery capacity (switching to lithium-ion batteries in submarines). The reason is simple and clear - 2-4 knots drag on a Stirling submarine, i.e. is a sedentary duck, which is good when the enemy floats right on your torpedoes, but this does not always happen
  29. 1536
    1536 12 October 2014 13: 35
    -1
    Each of our submarines is a nail in the coffin of the "Lady of the Seas" and a big button under the ass of her big brother from across the Ocean. Although boats should be made without looking back at all sorts of freaks trying to dominate the World, talking about their exclusivity. Keep it up.
  30. ramsi
    ramsi 12 October 2014 16: 35
    0
    Quote: gridasov
    I apologize. The rotor will not collapse because on the "blades" if you can call them that, an effect is created that counteracts the force that acts as a centrifugal one. I would call the effect of anti-centrifugal force.

    Actually, I’m more afraid that the metal will stupidly burst from a temperature difference, and the blades on the rotor seem to me superfluous
    1. gridasov
      gridasov 12 October 2014 16: 57
      0
      metal can burst only for perfectly justified reasons. the temperature difference in the metal is compensated by polarization in the dynamic flow of the outflow. Rotor blades are a must. Remember TESLA. Its turbine was built with the idea of ​​not preventing water or a gas-dynamic flow from moving along the flow paths. In modern hydrodynamics, it would be worth considering the angular velocity of not only the rotor, but also the flow of the moving along the trajectory radius of which is determined by a very important point, which few people are familiar with. Open the disc of the old vacuum cleaner. You will see the trajectories of dusty air. So, these - these trajectories can be harmonized. TESLA just tried not to stop the flow from moving. Then went Schauberger BUT! He did not ensure the perpendicularity of the flow from the rotor disk. From the above, remember why the Germans used liquid metal.
      In fact, I must admit, I didn’t come up with anything. I just read the train of thought of great scientists and add this to the information that is perceived as mystical or not at all. Therefore, I am a small person and I am allowed, as a joker, to say everything that I think. But at the same time, I can’t deceive myself. I cannot and do not want to deceive myself.
      1. ramsi
        ramsi 12 October 2014 18: 36
        -1
        no, well you're too smart for me. I have no idea what I came up with on Tesla’s turbines, but from practice, I can definitely say that its three-phase high can still be tolerated, but low it’s crap in a cube. However, I’ll clarify, I imagine a car like Wankel
        1. gridasov
          gridasov 12 October 2014 19: 24
          -1
          No, this is far from Wankel’s engine. Tesla is an unsurpassed genius, but it is part of the stage in a person's knowledge of the possibilities of controlling electricity. Already at that time, he determined the limits of the use of electric forces, which are still not understood and mastered. These boundaries are determined by what electrical components he used and on what principles they worked on. For example, both capacitors and induction devices and the principles of circuit design themselves are based on the principles of linearity. The spatial principles of the layout of electrical components using magnetic fluxes of each component are still not considered. You are not the only one who thinks that the optimal connection of two points in space is a straight line, like a conductor. Humanity still uses the system of three axes of coordinates. At the same time everyone knows. that in space there is nothing stably constant, and therefore they do not take into account the fourth axis of coordinates. Moreover, the presence of this axis is inextricably linked to the existence of a natural series of numbers that we use. Hence the mass of unresolved and unsolved issues of both theoretical and practical nature.
  31. ramsi
    ramsi 12 October 2014 20: 20
    -1
    Quote: gridasov
    The spatial principles of the layout of electrical components using magnetic fluxes of each component are still not considered.

    Why aren’t they used, at least you can configure the radio channel modules without this FIG, and this is important in audio technology. However, this is not the topic, and all the same will not change my attitude to Tesla. Besides, I feel like I got drunk again, so we’ll end the discussion ... Yes?
  32. Aandrewsir
    Aandrewsir 12 October 2014 20: 22
    0
    It is very good! Russia just needs a strong fleet. And you need to produce equipment and weapons for the fleet at home, in Russia, and not try to buy from your foes (France) who mock us for our money.
  33. Denimax
    Denimax 13 October 2014 00: 18
    +1
    15 or 20 days of being under water for the engine does not mean anything. We need the kilometer traveled.
  34. Stashen
    Stashen 13 October 2014 18: 58
    +1
    It’s interesting, if a regular diesel-electric boat will carry liquid oxygen with it and turn on diesel engines under water, will it also be called VNEU?
  35. xomaNN
    xomaNN 13 October 2014 19: 01
    -1
    The Germans in this matter have to catch up wink But from the situation with foreign delivery / NOT delivery? Rogozin and others made the correct conclusion: we must do the full cycle ourselves, and the Soviet backlog for 20 years has already gone.
  36. goose
    goose 15 October 2014 16: 19
    0
    Quote: Vittt
    For Russia, VNEU is still a minefield.

    Why so? Working installations were back in the 50s. Then the atom displaced them, because they didn’t count money. The generation of engine engineers is gone. There is a theory, there was no one to put into practice. About 10 years have passed, now there is someone, but it can be compared with Japan in 1944, there was an understanding, the desire was the same, but a bit of practice and the breakthroughs of 1945 would have gone. The peak of development another 15-20 years later came, if we talk about Japan. In Germany, the campaigns over the internal combustion engine did not stop, because the USSR and the USA did not have working versions of Stirling, only scientific prototypes. They were too rich. An engineering school - it’s such, it isn’t created with the click of a finger or an order; an incubation period is needed.
    1. gridasov
      gridasov 15 October 2014 16: 34
      -2
      I do not want to engage in pointless discussions, but I would not argue that there are theories. Maybe the tasks for these theories suit, but that's another matter.
  37. Alex
    Alex 23 October 2014 21: 34
    +2
    Despite the fact that the gridasov and the company thoroughly flooded the article (and why only people on this robotic robber are being conducted), nevertheless they managed to understand the material a little.
    And there is something to understand. Of course, I am not a great specialist in underwater shipbuilding, but some questions are not entirely clear. Is VNEU only from the air atmosphere or from oxygen in general? If the second, then so far it is only a nuclear boiler. If the first is not a solution to the problem, but simply its delay or disguise, "so that it is not strongly visible."

    Take the Germans for example. Their fuss with oxygen on board - this was already in WWII, there was no big sense, the boats did not come out of the project stage (it is not possible to describe in detail, in one of the issues of "T - M" there is an article "The idea to declare invalid" about developments Nikolsky on "Post", there in the comments and told about this German project). The fact that instead of diesel fuel, metal hydride is just a tribute to technology, the essence remains the same: oxidation of fuel with oxygen, cooling of steam and discharge / use of condensed water.

    An Italian closed-type diesel engine - what kind of animal is this? The ever-memorable "kreislauf engine" described in the same article already mentioned and lapped up from the development of Nikolsky? Thus, the practical experience of operation has shown the low potential of such an installation and a significantly more complex design in combination with low reliability. And if today the issues of manufacturability and reliability have been resolved (NTR and NTP after all), then it will still not work to replace the oxidizer for a diesel engine: the laws of chemistry are unshakable, no matter what some intellectuals write there.

    Stirling's engine. I don’t know at what speed the boat will move (as far as I remember, this installation allows you to get more power, but it’s unlikely to give the unit more speed, but I won’t argue - as I said, not an expert), but what is needed to get the temperature difference source of energy is a fact. And where will they take her? From batteries? And what will they be charged with? By diesel? And for this to pop up? And where is VNEU?

    In general, the article seemed to be one of that shaft of all-scientific messages that began to clog the site with a quiet glanders. Already somehow fed up with reading about light starships, thermonuclear reactors, hydrogen installations on warships of various kinds ... It is noteworthy that the interesting fact is that the legs of almost all of these ideas, so to speak, are growing from the USA. Not alarming? Or do not make laugh?
    1. gridasov
      gridasov 23 October 2014 23: 22
      -3
      Mr. Alex you can rest assured. I am not in the business of defending my own ideas. I'm trying to figure it out and I can only, once again, assert that the solutions that we could offer are not mere speculations. but real and practical devices and fully substantiated theoretically. Once again, I repeat that no one has yet conducted such a deep analysis of such highly dynamic processes as turbulence at all its levels. High-capacity in the informative sense and simultaneously occurring complex processes at each point of the local analysis space, I repeat, it is impossible to carry out modern mathematical methods. And for this, a methodology for such an analysis has been developed. Therefore, I am very sorry, but I do not repeat myself in other branches of the discussion and stop this venture. It is a pity that you, like many others, will only be left with reasoning, and real and substantiated technical solutions will remain "failed".
      In this case, you need to understand. that sooner or later someone will come to such decisions, and I will only be glad that maybe I could charge someone with our reasoning. I am a deeply religious person and I am confident that the ALMIGHTY will manage both the timeliness and the depth of knowledge that a person should and will have to master. I wish you all success and thanks for the discussion.
      1. Alex
        Alex 24 October 2014 16: 42
        +2
        Ser, if you read your opuses (otherwise this pseudoscientific nonsense cannot be called), then it seems that this is Twain's famous macaque. All your words are nothing more than a set of words, obviously generated by a linguistic program. True, I won’t be surprised if you are a first-year student of a theater university who simply trains in learning verbal studies. Then you are also not number one - the well-known Gennady Vetrov at this rate will give you a hundred points ahead, and even beat you up a couple of hundred.

        I consider the discussion with robot trolls to be absolutely useless. Good luck in improving software.