Military Review

The fake is worse than the original: C-400 and Su-35C deliveries to China are not threatened by Russia

82
The fake is worse than the original: C-400 and Su-35C deliveries to China are not threatened by Russia


In the last part of 2014, the development of Russian-Chinese relations was observed, taking place against the background of EU and US sanctions, which put at risk all economic ties created since 1991. A contract was signed with China to build the Power of Siberia gas pipeline and supply 38 billion cubic meters of gas per year for 30 years. The contract value was about 400 billion dollars. It is highly likely that the most important contracts in the field of military-technical cooperation will be signed soon, namely, the supply of C-400 anti-aircraft missile systems and Su-35С fighters.

At the same time, the opinion that any equipment supplied to China would be copied very soon became very widespread, which would threaten the security of the Russian Federation in the future, and also hit the manufacturers of Russian weapons, since Chinese counterfeits will cost much less on the international market. .

The situation at first glance may seem quite real, especially given the fact that the Chinese military equipment is, for the most part, a copy of Soviet and American designs. But are such complex products as the C-400 SAM and Su-35С fighter really be copied in a reasonable time frame? To answer this question, you should pay attention to history military technical cooperation between China and Russia.

One of the largest military contracts between states was the supply of C-300 anti-aircraft missile systems. The first deliveries began in the 1993 year and, to date, China already has at least 24 divisions of the C-300 SAMs, modifications of the PMU, PMU-1 and PMU-2. According to Chinese sources, this figure reaches the 40 divisions - 32 launchers C-300PMU, 64 C-300PMU1 and 64 С-300PMU2. In order to imagine what capabilities such a large-scale air defense system has it is necessary to pay attention to the tactical and technical characteristics - consider them on the example of the most advanced modification of the C-300PMU-2. The maximum target detection range of the complex is 300km, shelling of targets like "airplane" - 200km, ballistic missiles - 40km. In this case, one division (6-12 launchers) can simultaneously accompany up to 100 targets and fire at 36 of them.

It is worth noting that China has really made and is making efforts to copy this air defense system, and even achieved some success in this - the “domestic” air defense system HQ-9 was created. Externally, it practically corresponds to C-300, the stated characteristics are somewhat worse than C-300PMU-2, but also quite similar - the maximum firing range is 200 km, but only 6 targets are fired at the same time, the most serious drawback is the minimum height of target destruction in 500 m (10m for C-300PMU-2). However, even such characteristics cause a lot of doubt - if they really would correspond to reality, then at their low price, HQ-9 would already be in service with many states of the world. So far, the only local success in the armaments market has been achieved in the Turkish tender for the supply of long-range air defense systems, where HQ-9 has bypassed American, Russian and European air defense systems. However, the endless delay in the final decision on the tender raises the suspicion that Turkey is simply trying to bring down the price for the supply of US Patriot air defense systems with this game.

We also note that since 1993 has passed the year 21 - during this time C-300 has already become obsolete, and money earned in 1990 has gone to the development of modern C-400, and besides, one can say, the concern was saved "Almaz-Antey" from bankruptcy and collapse in the absence of government procurement. So it can be said with confidence that the transaction was successful - the system was copied only two decades after the first deliveries (and even those with flaws), when it was already outdated, and Russia had more advanced analogues. Now let's pay attention to the second example - this time with Su-27S-30 fighters. The first shipments of this very modern machine began in the 1991 year - the 24 fighter went to China in exchange for a barter supply of products and goods of light industry. In 1996, a contract was signed for the supply of 200-like aircraft, with the assembly of machines to be carried out in China. It was delivered about 100 machines, after which the purchases stopped, as the Chinese began to believe that the fighter did not suit them in the supplied modification (and they probably thought they could make it themselves). Based on the Su-27SK, they developed a local modification - J11B, which was equipped with Chinese electronics. It was originally planned to equip the fighters with their own WS-10A “Taihang” engine, however, they still have not been brought to mind, and are distinguished by extremely low reliability and resource, compared with the Russian AL-31F. As a result, cars began to be produced, equipping them with power units supplied from the Russian Federation.

In addition, from 2000 to 2004, the Chinese Armed Forces received 73 Su-30MKK and 24 Su-30MK2 - these fighters are a two-seat version of the Su-27, which have great capabilities when attacking ground targets. China also created a local modification of the aircraft - the J-16, which has the same problems as the J-11B. Moreover, neither one nor the other aircraft in serious quantities has been produced yet - the basis of the fighter aviation China are Russian cars and their modifications.

As you can see - the situation is even worse with the copying of fighters than with the air defense system - 23 of the year has passed, and China has not had a decent aircraft engine, and so far has not.

Now back to the possible supply of C-400 and Su-35C.

LAW C-400, at the moment, is the most advanced air defense system in the world. At the moment, the maximum range of the complex is 250 km, but soon the 40H6Е rocket with a target range of up to 400 km and an altitude of 185 km will be adopted. The system has serious capabilities for the implementation of missile defense. Deliveries in the global market will begin no earlier than in 2016, while C-400 is actively adopting the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation.

Based on the experience of supplying C-300, it can be concluded that to copy even more complicated C-400 China will need at least as much time - the same 20 years. And during this time, the Russian Federation will have a noticeable time to arm itself with even newer C-500, capable of intercepting missiles in near space (the anti-missile has already been successfully tested this year).

The same applies to the generation fighter 4 ++ - Su-35С. If, as far as electronics and airframes are concerned, the Chinese have succeeded well, then the problem with the engines has not gone away. But the copying of the power plant AL-41F1С, which has a unique and the only in the world system of all-angle deviation of the thrust vector, can be a generally overwhelming task. In addition, while the Chinese military will be busy copying the aging technology of the 4 ++ generation fighter aircraft, the Russian Federation will begin to replenish its troops with the 5 generation machines developed by the Sukhoy PAK FA design bureau in several years.

From all of the above we can draw the following conclusions:

1) Modern technology can not be instantly copied, and require many years of work.

2) Copying is always behind.

3) A copy, often, worse than the original.

Accordingly, the fears associated with future contracts have no serious grounds. If China really wants to become a competitor of the United States and the Russian Federation in the arms market, then it should start developing its own projects, as the USSR did in its time, using American and German technologies in aircraft and rocket production in the postwar years as an impetus for the development of its military-industrial complex. In the meantime, the sale of weapons to China is only a good way to earn money to create new weapons for the Russian Armed Forces.
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http://www.regnum.ru/news/polit/1853736.html
82 comments
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  1. Rurikovich
    Rurikovich 4 October 2014 09: 04
    +27
    Nuuuu, and the development of Chinese specialists does not stand still. And now, with the existence of powerful computers, the likelihood of copying a technology sample with the parameters of this sample increases many times. Therefore, do not flatter yourself request
    1. Lantau
      Lantau 4 October 2014 09: 34
      +18
      The Chinese themselves admit that they have a very serious lag in metal science. And a breakthrough in this industry has not yet been observed. They do not have this developed school. Copying is half the battle, and how it will work is the question.
      1. Talgat
        Talgat 4 October 2014 11: 28
        +12
        At the same time, there is also an effect described by American analysts - weapons that seem to be not in service with the Russian Federation and sold "to the side" - in fact work for the Russian Federation - strengthening the confrontation with the United States and forcing them to respond to this "balance shift"

        It was said about arms sales to Venezuela - but justified in relation to China in the current realities. China's air defense reinforcement is also a deterrent to the United States
      2. Shur
        Shur 4 October 2014 12: 50
        +12
        There is no school, but we have a lot of corrupt skins.
      3. MY THOUGHT
        MY THOUGHT 5 October 2014 15: 40
        0
        do not flatter yourself Chinese tanks at the tank biathlon fired more precisely that these guys are doing their job there can be no doubt sad
        1. Penzyac
          Penzyac 5 October 2014 19: 32
          +3
          Quote: MY THOUGHT
          do not flatter yourself Chinese tanks at the tank biathlon fired more precisely that these guys are doing their job there can be no doubt sad

          And what is the longevity of their trunks? The question for peacetime, and even more so for a high-intensity battle in a real clash, is very significant, in the latter case it can become decisive.
    2. Shur
      Shur 4 October 2014 12: 50
      +6
      Yes, it's time to think about developing products for them with "non-retrievable" technologies. They opened the building and that's it, liquidation. laughing
      1. Boa kaa
        Boa kaa 5 October 2014 19: 33
        +1
        Quote: Shur
        They opened the case and everything, liquidation

        And how to repair? Replacing with a new fighter purchased from us? -- But!!!
    3. SergeyM
      SergeyM 4 October 2014 13: 24
      +8
      Why did the author decide that China would copy again? China does not stand still. Recall our story with Fau, at first we copied, studied and then ... And given that Chinese electronics are no worse than ours and even better, it's not so simple. Chinese Supercomputer is already the best in the world. And for the development of its technology it is not necessary to copy someone else’s, sometimes the peeped someone else’s idea gives a direction of thought that allows one to surpass.
      1. Cresta999
        Cresta999 5 October 2014 23: 20
        0
        In military electronics, unlike civilian electronics, reliability is the main thing, not speed. Speed ​​is of course important, but it is in second place. Remember Vietnam. How did Soviet electronics behave at the beginning of the conflict, until they learned to fill it with epoxy?
    4. kosmos1980
      kosmos1980 4 October 2014 13: 46
      +8
      As one of my teachers, Colonel Gribakin, said, "Put a monkey in, hit it on the head every day and sooner or later it will be able to assemble a computer, but it will never be able to make the bottom of the rocket tank."
    5. EvilLion
      EvilLion 4 October 2014 15: 39
      +3
      The computer considers only what was laid in it.
      1. Vita_vko
        Vita_vko 4 October 2014 18: 13
        +1
        Even if they sell 100% S-400 production technology to China, they will not be able to create SAMs in only a few years. Then at least another year is necessary for testing and fine-tuning the air defense system parameters to the original. A few more years will be required to debug production. As a result, 5 years, this is the average time required to organize and implement new technologies. This is a common global practice in the technology trade market. It should be borne in mind that the scientific and technical personnel of China will be busy studying what has already been developed and naturally there will be no further movement.
        As a result, a guaranteed technological and scientific-technical backlog of 2-3 years is created. Besides, A competent offset policy in the military-technological field is much more profitable than a simple sale of finished weapons.
        1. Penzyac
          Penzyac 5 October 2014 19: 55
          0
          Quote: Vita_vko
          Even if they sell 100% S-400 production technology to China, they will not be able to create SAMs in only a few years. Then at least another year is necessary for testing and fine-tuning the air defense system parameters to the original. A few more years will be required to debug production. As a result, 5 years, this is the average time required to organize and implement new technologies. This is a common global practice in the technology trade market. It should be borne in mind that the scientific and technical personnel of China will be busy studying what has already been developed and naturally there will be no further movement.
          As a result, a guaranteed technological and scientific-technical backlog by 2-3 years is created ... [/ b]

          It was the transition of applied science and production in the USSR, by the decision of high-ranking mediocrity, from their own developments to copying Western models in the field of electronics and computer technology (I myself remember how they sat and translated the obtained circuits of a "bourgeois" computer into domestic PKI in an unknown way, moreover, inevitably , with an increase in size and deterioration of other characteristics) led to our significant, long-term lag behind the West in this area (the same applies to the automotive industry). But our first computers were no worse than the American ones, and even better in some parameters, and they were created almost simultaneously (and here the militant ignoramus Khrushchev twisted, they say, cybernetics - the corrupt girl of imperialism).
    6. Locksmith
      Locksmith 4 October 2014 23: 55
      +1
      Quote: Rurikovich
      And now, with the existence of powerful computers, the likelihood of copying a technology sample with the parameters of this sample increases many times

      This is so, but as it has long been noted, Chinese copies do not have the correct software, so their things that are outwardly correct are most often a wretched semblance of a fairly high technological level. This is clearly visible on models, for example helicopters and airplanes and their electronics, outwardly completely copies the original, but consumer qualities determined by software and materials are simply zero
    7. demo
      demo 5 October 2014 07: 36
      +4
      A computer is a machine operating under the direction of a program.
      Copying man.
      The ability to issue an exact copy or a primitive fake depends on his level of education and the development of related industries with aircraft construction.
      Let the Chinese develop.
      The strength of ants in their quantity and discipline.
      Weakness - in the absence of initiative and independence.
      In Russians, every second is Kulibin.
      Every third expertly climbs into the configuration and restructuring of everything and everything, from the iron to the computer.
      1. Penzyac
        Penzyac 5 October 2014 19: 58
        +3
        Quote: demo
        A computer is a machine operating under the direction of a program.
        Copying man.
        The ability to issue an exact copy or a primitive fake depends on his level of education and the development of related industries with aircraft construction.
        Let the Chinese develop.
        The strength of ants in their quantity and discipline.
        Weakness - in the absence of initiative and independence.
        In Russians, every second is Kulibin.
        Every third expertly climbs into the configuration and restructuring of everything and everything, from the iron to the computer.

        Mentality is a terrible force!
    8. timer
      timer 5 October 2014 15: 33
      +2
      I liked the article, BUT, do not delude yourself that the Chinese act as a catch-up. They make great efforts (see the military budget) to catch up and catch up. Secondly, the Chinese are good disciplined students, and they catch everything on the fly and absorb everything new that is on the planet, in relation to new technologies and developments. This is on the one hand. On the other hand, our military-industrial complex needs a reorganization and optimization of the approach to R&D, production (automation, robotization, 3D printing, etc.), personnel training. My position-the military-industrial complex should become the core of advanced engineering (including dual-purpose technologies), high productivity and competitiveness at the planetary level (that is, to become a TNC) and to lead Russia out of the current "stable" swamp, which is so happy to be a guarantor of the future.
    9. siberalt
      siberalt 5 October 2014 15: 40
      +1
      Bayushku and bayu! "Do not lie down on the edge." Something the author misunderstands or pretends to be. What is there to comment on?
    10. Penzyac
      Penzyac 5 October 2014 19: 24
      -1
      Quote: Rurikovich
      Nuuuu, and the development of Chinese specialists does not stand still. And now, with the existence of powerful computers, the likelihood of copying a technology sample with the parameters of this sample increases many times. Therefore, do not flatter yourself request

      No computer can replace human thought. If everything were so simple ...
    11. Cresta999
      Cresta999 5 October 2014 23: 16
      -1
      I don’t think that a powerful computer makes it easier to copy a complex device (for example, the blades of an aircraft engine). Without it, of course, nothing, but it’s unlikely that anything will change from its power.
      1. kodxnumx
        kodxnumx 7 October 2014 15: 36
        0
        There is a correct judgment in this article! I think a specialist is more visible on this issue.
  2. zavesa01
    zavesa01 4 October 2014 09: 15
    +1
    And the Chinese are buying them in large quantities.
  3. erased
    erased 4 October 2014 09: 16
    +8
    Do not reassure yourself with tales of stupid chinas. They are not only not stupid, but also clever, skillful, fast. And yet - they do not retreat from their plans.
    1. The point
      The point 4 October 2014 15: 50
      +6
      BUT EVERYTHING IS BETTER THAN ALL THE CHINESE PRODUCE OTHER CHINESE. laughing
    2. Penzyac
      Penzyac 5 October 2014 20: 10
      0
      Quote: erased
      Do not reassure yourself with tales of stupid chinas. They are not only not stupid, but also clever, skillful, fast. And yet - they do not retreat from their plans.

      Perseverance and formal knowledge is not everything!
      For some reason, there is a statement among programmers: "If you have a simple task, give it to the Indians, if the task is difficult, give it to the Chinese, and if the task is impossible, call only the Russians" ...
      They probably all lack fantasy, for this, probably, one should think in Russian, though a Chinese man who thinks in Russian is no longer Chinese (not in the ethnic sense).
  4. ISKANDER25
    ISKANDER25 4 October 2014 09: 17
    +3
    Hello! China is steadily stepping into the military-industrial complex towards progress — this is not disputed !!! hi
  5. DMB-75
    DMB-75 4 October 2014 09: 26
    +8
    ... posters of such an appeal are still relevant:
  6. Ivan Tarasov
    Ivan Tarasov 4 October 2014 09: 26
    +4
    A copy is not always worse than the original, remember Japanese oxygen torpedoes, air guns based on the Browning trophy machine gun, Soviet turbojet engine VK-1, PTP 53 -K, etc.
  7. Iline
    Iline 4 October 2014 09: 38
    +7
    The trouble is not that the Chinese will copy weapons, the trouble is that with these copies they have actually begun to cross Russia’s path in the arms trade. Everyone understands that their samples are worse, but the price ... As they say, dashing trouble began.
    1. Shur
      Shur 4 October 2014 12: 52
      +3
      Of course, you cannot push anyone at your cutting-edge development until you have fully armed your own troops.
    2. Boa kaa
      Boa kaa 5 October 2014 20: 04
      +1
      Quote: Iline
      Everyone understands that their samples are worse,

      These copies often lead to a compromise of the original. So it was, for example, with Kalashi manufactured in the Celestial Empire.
  8. syntanjey
    syntanjey 4 October 2014 09: 52
    +2
    "unique and the only system of all-aspect thrust vector deviation in the world"
    Two double-circuit turbojet engines “AL-35F41S” with an afterburner and a thrust vector controlled in one plane were installed on the Su-1. In order to increase the number of angles for deflecting the engine thrust and creating pseudo-all-angle views, the axes of rotation of the deflected nozzles are tilted, which is clearly seen in the photograph (the nozzles deviate down-in and up-out).
  9. Jurkovs
    Jurkovs 4 October 2014 10: 05
    -16
    We all have some kind of corny thinking. No matter how modern our weapons are, the Americans will crush us economically. They have a more developed industry, a more able-bodied population, and so on. Once again, we will lose the economic competition, a lower standard of living will again cause dissatisfaction with a certain part of the population, as it was in the 70s. What to do? Nontrivial solutions are needed. For example, to share with China, for free and for free, our advanced technologies for the creation of atomic submarines and Sinev missiles for them, to create a joint production of strategic bombers, to acquaint them with the achievements in missile defense and the creation of warheads. All this will force China to get out from under our geopolitical umbrella and directly compete with the United States. But the US economy can’t stand this competition and they know it. Those who categorically object to the supply of the most advanced weapons to China until our army is filled with them simply do not think through their thoughts to the end. The saturation of our army with these weapons will not save us from economic competition, and since we will lose it once again, these people unknowingly say that it is better to lie under America than under China. But why? America will again commit genocide, the last example in Ukraine, and China has not been noticed in this over its 2-year history. In addition, it is only worth talking about the transfer to China of manufacturing technologies for the latest weapons, as the United States will come to us with persuasion not to do this. But it’s really worth something to convey, as the Americans will return to us both the Baltic States and the Transcaucasus and our other geopolitical losses, if only we would help them organize a technological blockade of China. Then all the cards will be in our hands, I don’t want to play.
    1. Ivan Tarasov
      Ivan Tarasov 4 October 2014 10: 53
      +4
      We all have some kind of corny thinking. No matter how modern our weapons are, the Americans will crush us economically.

      Therefore, action should be taken at a higher priority - ideological.
      We will win on the ideological, win on the economic, creating on the ideological platform a new economic bloc of countries.
      You suggest switching to a lower priority - military.
      In the military, we will never defeat countries dominating at a higher priority (WWII example).
      1. Jurkovs
        Jurkovs 4 October 2014 13: 39
        0
        Quote: Ivan Tarasov
        Therefore, action should be taken at a higher priority - ideological.

        Being determines consciousness. And not vice versa.
        1. Ivan Tarasov
          Ivan Tarasov 4 October 2014 14: 39
          +2
          Quote: Jurkovs
          Quote: Ivan Tarasov
          Therefore, action should be taken at a higher priority - ideological.

          Being determines consciousness. And not vice versa.

          A moot point.
        2. Shur
          Shur 4 October 2014 20: 17
          +2
          Consciousness is general knowledge, and therefore a part of being. Greek misconceptions already got.
      2. Boa kaa
        Boa kaa 5 October 2014 20: 36
        +1
        Quote: Ivan Tarasov
        In the military, we will never defeat countries dominating at a higher priority (WWII example).

        Following your assertion, it turns out that we will never defeat NATO? After all, they have united at the "ideological" (damn it!) Level for mutual benefit!
        Well, well ... And we’ll hide the nuclear weapons under the pillow and we won’t give anyone their teeth, so according to your logic?
        Therefore, before you say anything, you need to think carefully and look at your statement from all sides. At least, for the sake of decency, to compare the military and economic potentials of the warring parties. It would also be nice to compare the territories, population, resource base, natural and climatic conditions, etc. After that, we can speak in a probabilistic aspect, subject to such and such conditions, such and such an option is possible with a probability of X%.
        What did you think! military analytics - it will be worse than A. Einstein’s theory of probability! P and M are also present here.
    2. Island
      Island 4 October 2014 11: 00
      +5
      I completely agree, you need to think much deeper than just competing with America .... In general, we ourselves are an independent culture .... it is difficult to play in a foreign field, we need to create our own ...
    3. sv68
      sv68 4 October 2014 11: 43
      +6
      jurkovs, but Medvedev isn’t a relative to you, all the same, you’ll invent and do it. Moreover, sir, you wrote complete nonsense with a clearly degenerated provocative bias. heerny do not dare to invite! sincerely sorry that I can put only one minus-catch it is your-earned.
    4. Shur
      Shur 4 October 2014 13: 07
      +1
      These are two interconnected fields. And what is not profitable to do and sell weapons? Or, to put it simply, will you share a profitable deal with someone else? China is China, but here you also have to work somewhere and earn money in order to raise the "able-bodied population." "China was not seen in the genocide", right, seriously? So an adult should understand that there is no place for friendship in the field of geopolitics and economics. You can cooperate, but you noticed how "Western partners" are transferring technologies to us. They give us only tops and no more, do they think? The United States will not run anywhere, it will create another pack and declare us and China "countries of evil." This is a big fight, everything can change here. The USSR also collaborated with the Hitler regime, so what? In the future, no one knows where he will turn his dragon head. Are you sure ours? This is not cards, but chess, and this is really a more multivariate game with high stakes. The main thing that you did not take into account is the great economic independence of the United States, this is what we need to talk about, and not about the transfer of everything and everyone. You need to increase your economic independence and then the chances will be smoother, and not, as now everything is import-dependent. Against this background, you still want to add competitive advantages to China. Oga is wise.
      1. Boa kaa
        Boa kaa 5 October 2014 20: 58
        +1
        Quote: Shur
        The USSR also collaborated with the Hitler regime, and so what?
        Like what!? Raised the flag of Victory over the defeated Reichstag! Don't you know?
        In general, they pulled up a fable about the cooperation of "two bloody regimes" bearing "equal responsibility for unleashing WWII." - Not tired of singing according to other people's notes? they don't have enough brains to get to the bottom of the truth and see what preceded and how England, France and Co. behaved on the eve of the annexation of the Sudetenland, the Anschluss of Austria, the attack on Poland ... After that, one can recall the Molotov Pact.
        Quote: Shur
        Greater US economic independence

        What are you talking about? About 1,7 trill a state debt of the states? Exactly: they are independent. Having such aircraft, they definitely believe that only cowards give debts!
        Quote: Shur
        where do you turn your dragon head
        I agree that everything is possible in the future. But for now, the situation is in our favor. Mutually beneficial cooperation is evident. This cartoon was posted by the Western media after signing the gas contract with China on 400bn dollars.
    5. Boa kaa
      Boa kaa 5 October 2014 20: 21
      +1
      Quote: Jurkovs
      Once again we lose the economic competition

      Why so at once? Why don't we talk about the criterion "unit price"? If my memory serves me, it is he who determines the efficiency of production. I suggest you compare!
      And in order not to fall on the hook of the "waste" competition: who will produce more per unit of time, then the question of an asymmetric answer arises. What do you think! You need to win by skill, not numbers! For instance.
      Maybe it is not at all necessary to shoot down all the Axes with an air defense system, maybe it is cheaper and more reliable to "pack" them all into the "Knapsack-E"?
      Now calculate the cost of the 1 Ax and 1 shot from the EMR installation.
      Thought, servant, understand? - well, okay!
    6. Penzyac
      Penzyac 5 October 2014 20: 40
      0
      Quote: Jurkovs
      We all have some kind of corny thinking. No matter how modern our weapons are, the Americans will crush us economically. They have a more developed industry, a more able-bodied population, and so on. ...

      Also, apparently Hitler reasoned, conquering Europe and building the "Barbarossa" plan ... soldier fool
      What to do? Nontrivial solutions are needed. ... they say that it’s better to lie under America than under China. But why? America will again arrange genocide, the last example in Ukraine, and China has not been noticed in this over its 2-year history .... Then all the cards will be in our hands, I don’t want to play.

      Then the Chinese will have all the cards, and we will no longer be the western, but their appendage. stop
      Russia has never been and never will be! am
      But we can well mutually supplement each other with China: we give them raw materials, high-tech, as well as resource and energy-consuming products; they give us consumer goods and other labor-intensive products, including technological ones. We must use our competitive advantages: we have the resources and everything that depends on them as much as possible, science and creative mind, they have the tenacity and the mass of working hands, as well as, of course, science too, plus we have barley, rye and wheat , they give us rice, soy and kiwi (who grows better than what). hi
    7. Dazdranagon
      Dazdranagon 6 October 2014 09: 35
      0
      Quote: Jurkovs
      Americans will crush us economically
      - 90th survived, and now we will survive!
      Quote: Jurkovs
      For example, to share with China, for free and for free, our advanced technologies for creating atomic submarines and Sinev’s missiles for them,
      “China is not such a friend to us!” We will give technology - they will select Siberia.
      Quote: Jurkovs
      All this will force China to get out from under our geopolitical umbrella, and directly compete with the United States.
      - China does not particularly need the USA - there is no land border and disputed territories.
    8. Danik_Rok
      Danik_Rok 6 October 2014 19: 12
      0
      Damn, what people just do not dream)
  10. Cu6up9k
    Cu6up9k 4 October 2014 10: 18
    +1
    Apparently not yet time for such decisions. And the pro-American liberals and lobbyists have not gone anywhere. GDP has children there too.
  11. Mountain shooter
    Mountain shooter 4 October 2014 11: 42
    +4
    The children of GDP are here. What nonsense is repeated constantly.
    China is really lagging behind with the development of new technologies. And with difficulty mastering them. Delivered equipment to China twice, and now the project is moving. They did not copy, although they really wanted to. Did not work out. Neither in mainland China, nor in Taiwan.
    Air defense missiles supplied abroad must necessarily have "tabs" that will allow these systems to be disabled when used against a supplier. Everyone remembers the Iraqi air defense system, which the French turned off? I think that the planes too. Therefore, let them buy, develop our military-industrial complex, reduce the cost of our missiles and aircraft.
  12. lilian
    lilian 4 October 2014 12: 00
    +2
    Apparently, China does not have some alloys. There may be dozens of them in the engine. But it’s stupid to think that China will be constantly catching up. The USSR also began with copying, and then created its own successful models. By the way, there were also big problems with engines in the USSR until the 60s. And the Chinese copy of the Yak-130 flies much better than the original.

    And this is why China I perceive as a threat I can’t understand. I personally admire this country. The country is developing economically, culturally. The country is sovereign as economically, culturally, politically. Nobody succeeds in imposing their ideas on her, indicating what and how to do. And China itself does not teach anyone life. Is it bad? Shouldn't such a country be respected? Do you need to be friends with such a country?

    How to explain the unfriendly attitude of some? Envy? Or a zeal for the status of a great power?
    1. Penzyac
      Penzyac 5 October 2014 20: 56
      0
      Quote: lilian
      ... China does not teach anyone life. Is it bad? Shouldn't such a country be respected? Do you need to be friends with such a country? ...

      Respect and friendship are not only possible, but necessary. But, this is not a reason to become a Chinese appendage.
      Our history is also ancient, maybe even no less than Chinese, and we were never sovereign (even under the Mongols there was at least vassal, but sovereignty, for that time it was normal), and China in the XIX century and until the middle of the XX century was actually occupied and divided between Europeans (mainly the British and us) and Japanese (mainly after the Russo-Japanese war).
    2. Boa kaa
      Boa kaa 5 October 2014 21: 14
      +2
      Quote: lilian
      Apparently, China does not have some alloys.

      Little remark. China is a world storehouse of rare-earth metals without which the further development of electronics is unthinkable.
      About the post. I fully share your view of the Celestial Empire. But potentially, you still need to keep your ears open and listen to the movements of the Dragon. You cannot continue to make Khrushchev’s mistakes.
      And the fact that G. Kissinger and Barak Huseynovich did not heed the warnings of G. Kissenger and Barack Huseynovich allowed the rapprochement of the Russian Federation and the People’s Republic of China and crumbling the loaf to both of us is a geostrategic miscalculation of the United States, which is unlikely to be forgiven him in the future. But in practice they will do everything to destroy our union. Hence the intimidation of us by the Chinese threat, and the attempt to force us not to trade in the latest military developments, etc.
      The great ones said: look, who benefits from this! then you can see the hidden springs moving puppets on the political stage. IMHO,
  13. aleksandrs95
    aleksandrs95 4 October 2014 13: 01
    +3
    I want to note the most important thing, because no one is now copying the entire complex, the plane, the air defense. They take only the most important, breakthrough moments. For example, Rafal, but a wonderful fighter, is interesting in it engines with very good characteristics and their own dimensions, electronic filling of individual systems. With electronics like on Rafale, our MIG-29M2 would be a great or at least no worse device than Rafal.
  14. todaygoodday
    todaygoodday 4 October 2014 13: 45
    +4
    At one time, the Soviet Union also lagged, so we have a whole series of unique developments. Given the brewing porridge, strong, and not lagging behind China is also in our hands. The main thing is that our achievements do not lie in the * box * for decades. The world then and without us, during this time, will step forward.
  15. Anchonsha
    Anchonsha 4 October 2014 13: 57
    +4
    Based on the fact that we really need money at the present time in connection with the sanctions and the realities set forth in the article, if, of course, they correspond to the author’s stated in the technical development of the PRC, then we need to meet China to increase its defense against the United States and Japan. We now need to be more than ever together with the PRC in confrontation with the West for at least 5-7 years in order to level our economy, at least get off the oil supply needle of our treasury, and then build future relations depending on the actions and actions of the PRC.
  16. Koronik
    Koronik 4 October 2014 14: 30
    +3
    All this we went through during the Soviet era, hid our achievements, but the Americans leave for themselves only the most modern developments and everything else on the market.
  17. lotar
    lotar 4 October 2014 16: 45
    +2
    Any technology is created for its tasks, it does not matter whether it is ultramodern or ancient in nature. I agree with the opinion of the author of this article, especially with the last three statements. People who say that China has a growing engineering level of specialists are right, but they forget that in addition to the technologies that still need to be recreated with all their components, some of which only seem to be easy to recreate, there would be adequate financial resources, in fact this is not so. The corresponding elemental and scientific base, which is not so easy to obtain.
  18. PM9mm
    PM9mm 4 October 2014 18: 32
    +3
    In the situation with China, one cannot draw such simple and lulling conclusions, because the superiority of the performance characteristics of one type of technology over the performance characteristics of another is not so important, often, because you can have 20 super aircraft, at a time when the enemy has 500 of its degraded copies and a hundred factories for them production. The Second World War experience consisted in this - whoever produces more and faster, he won.
    1. Boa kaa
      Boa kaa 5 October 2014 21: 34
      +1
      Quote: PM9mm
      whoever produces more and faster has won.

      The statement is true for the era of the inaccessibility of the industrial base with enemy weapons.
      At the moment, when the economy (industry and agricultural) of the warring parties has become the object of priority strategic nuclear forces attacks, the issue of the availability of strategic reserves of raw materials, finished products, components, and long-term food products is very acute.
      I think that with the start of the big war, General Dynamics and K * will die on the very first day of the DB. Therefore, the issue of organized reserves and state reserves, the mob of the country's capabilities as a whole, is so important. You will have to fight with those weapons that were produced in peacetime. Then what will be assembled from components and rebuilt at repair bases. Then the turn of conservation will come, then what remains of previous generations ... In addition to underground, factories will lie in ruins.
      Therefore, I propose to prepare for the wars of the future!
  19. SKY INSPECTOR
    SKY INSPECTOR 4 October 2014 21: 49
    +6
    In fact, the thesis about the "Chinese threat" and the "danger" of supplying China with promising military equipment is actively lobbied by traitors who have settled in the government (in various departments, advisory committees, some institutions, including the Ministry of Defense (everyone who came under Serdyukov - under knife!). These traitors specifically work for the United States and NATO (some of them also for Israel.) Their task is to prevent rapprochement and a military alliance between Russia and China, because for them they are practically a ... agents both in the Russian government and especially in the mass misinformation with the aim of preventing a mutually beneficial and geopolitically correct alliance between Russia and China, in every possible way watering China and attributing to it what does not exist and cannot be. China is a very wise partner. China is extremely interested in so that Russia is exactly an ALLY! If Russia is an enemy, then in a hostile environment of the West, China has little chances not only to preserve its independence but also to survive! they understand well. Therefore, they need Russia as a friend. They understand that the main adversary, in any analysis of development prospects, are precisely the United States (a recent example is the events in Hong Kong) and the Western bloc of satanic states. It is from them that the main threat comes not even to the world, but to life itself on the planet. We (Russia) definitely need to cooperate with China - including supplying modern weapons and technologies, naturally, on a mutually beneficial basis and taking into account, among other things, commercial interests. Everything should be mutually beneficial and useful. And there is no need to be afraid of China (and eastern countries in general)! We have a long, not one millennium, history of relations and cooperation with them. And looking at the past, these relations were in many ways more honest and useful than relations with the West (from which, basically, all the evil and problems!) Returning to the topic, we can confidently supply China with S-400 complexes and SU fighters -35 - all this will work for Russia! And not only financially! The USA and its allies along the axis of evil will behave much more modestly! A strong and friendly to Russia China is very important for world stability, for the balance of power on the planet. Russia has a serious interest in this.
    1. Libra
      Libra 4 October 2014 22: 56
      +2
      that's it, I’ll add on my own that China would be able to easily buy a plane and an air defense system, because they are sold (and not necessarily directly) - this is where our defense industry survived - otherwise it would have simply died, in general, these doubts were sheer nonsense and in the whole history since Russia, China has not attacked us
  20. Danik_Rok
    Danik_Rok 5 October 2014 00: 31
    0
    Not only will they be copied, but they will be improved as there will be no need to spend time developing from scratch, and there is nothing more to say, at least they would have sold 200 units, and not a miserable 30 planes to give loans to Russian banks.
  21. 1-ST Engineer
    1-ST Engineer 5 October 2014 02: 55
    +1
    It is necessary to sell, no one disputes, the main thing is the volume of deliveries ...
  22. Crang
    Crang 5 October 2014 13: 13
    +1
    1) Modern technology can not be instantly copied, and require many years of work.

    2) Copying is always behind.

    3) A copy, often, worse than the original.


    Repeat this with the T-90A and Type-99A2 side by side.
    1. Penzyac
      Penzyac 5 October 2014 21: 08
      0
      Quote: Krang
      1) Modern technology can not be instantly copied, and require many years of work.

      2) Copying is always behind.

      3) A copy, often, worse than the original.


      Repeat this with the T-90A and Type-99A2 side by side.

      So what? The quality of metal, armor (protection in general), the longevity of the gun barrel, the resource of the engine and chassis, etc. - all the same?
      1. Crang
        Crang 6 October 2014 08: 13
        0
        Quote: PENZYAC
        So what? The quality of metal, armor (protection in general), the longevity of the gun barrel, the resource of the engine and chassis, etc. - all the same?

        What's worse?
  23. Dormidont2
    Dormidont2 5 October 2014 15: 03
    +2
    Quote: Lantau
    The Chinese themselves admit that they have a very serious lag in metal science. And a breakthrough in this industry has not yet been observed. They do not have this developed school. Copying is half the battle, and how it will work is the question.

    stop counting the Chinese as simpletons, they’re downing satellites, they’ve done ballistic missiles against the AOG, soon we’ll buy weapons from them, because it will be cheaper than ours, and you can sell the Su35 -s400 only without a license
    1. Danik_Rok
      Danik_Rok 6 October 2014 19: 03
      0
      It seems to me or to the Chinese that without a license, what is the matter with her, do not care?
  24. siberalt
    siberalt 5 October 2014 15: 43
    +1
    Quote: Maksud
    BUT EVERYTHING IS BETTER THAN ALL THE CHINESE PRODUCE OTHER CHINESE. laughing

    Plus 100500! Absolutely in the hole! laughing
  25. Division
    Division 5 October 2014 16: 53
    +3
    Guys, this is not just like that! They support us, and we them. Everything is honest.
  26. Ra79
    Ra79 5 October 2014 17: 09
    +2
    The idea of ​​the article is true, I support! Then one desire to develop and develop your technical thought and talent !!! Xerox invention, by the way, is also Chinese even before Christmas! And things are still there ..... And the Chinese miracle is only their mass and willingness to work for food, it is difficult to compete with such approaches, so you need to put pressure on your brain!
  27. voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 5 October 2014 18: 09
    0
    "1) Modern technologies are not amenable to instant copying,
    but require many years of work.
    2) Copying is always behind.
    3) The copy is usually worse than the original. "////

    All the author’s conclusions regarding the Chinese, alas, are incorrect. They copied perfectly and
    American and Israeli military developments - much more
    wound up, and technologically sophisticated than Russian. Cleavage and
    Russian. And not only copy, but also improve!
    Moreover, they do it with frightening speed and organization.
    (Actually, only metal-alloy blades and turbine disks are a secret
    durability of Russian engines. But you can change them more often).

    Another thing is that Russia has nowhere to go. Not sell planes, not
    will receive a $ 25 billion loan for oil and gas.
    1. Boa kaa
      Boa kaa 5 October 2014 21: 49
      +1
      Quote: voyaka uh
      All the author’s conclusions regarding the Chinese, alas, are incorrect. They copied perfectly and
      American and Israeli military developments - much more
      wound up, and technologically sophisticated than Russian.

      Why, the cunning American-Israeli scientists and designers were unable to split the secret of the S-300, although Russian technology, as you had the honor to say, is not as "twisted and technologically complex" as "American and Israeli military developments ". Maybe not everything is so bad with us? how does it seem to someone from behind a hillock?
      Again, Iskander with Bulova and Yars in addition ...
      1. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh 7 October 2014 12: 50
        0
        S-300, I'm sorry, missiles are good, but yesterday.
        It is pointless to copy it.
        We can also talk about copying the S-400 (with a new missile), the S-500, which is under development.
    2. srelock
      srelock 6 October 2014 10: 23
      0
      Quote: voyaka uh
      All the author’s conclusions regarding the Chinese, alas, are incorrect. They copied perfectly and
      American and Israeli military developments - much more
      wound up, and technologically sophisticated than Russian. Cleavage and
      Russian. And not only copy, but also improve!


      Hello voyaka uh. As I understand it, did you finally manage to find the required source and study Russian technologies in detail? Congratulations! The Chinese will burst with envy!

      In general, you can copy, for example, dimensions, design solutions, chemical. composition, etc., but the production technology of something always has to be developed by ourselves. Well, or have such a "magic" source like yours.

      (minus I set)
      1. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh 7 October 2014 12: 47
        0
        I wrote: technology (chemical composition and alloy processing) of turbine blades, disks,
        jet engine nozzles - the only "uncleaned" one in DRY. But the Chinese will make copies of less durability. Between the cap. repairs will be in a shorter period of time. And the Chinese copies will fly no worse.
        1. srelock
          srelock 7 October 2014 23: 16
          0
          voyaka uh, I asked you a very specific question:
          -How do you get such deep knowledge about Russian technologies?
          American and Israeli military developments - much more
          wound up, and technologically sophisticated than Russian


          Quote: voyaka uh
          But the Chinese will make copies of lesser durability. Between the cap. repairs will be a shorter period of time. And Chinese copies will fly no worse.
          And where does such deep knowledge about Chinese technologies and the characteristics of Chinese technology come from?

          The first conclusion of the author of the article is not complete. More correct: "Modern technologies do not lend themselves to instant copying, but require many years of work, huge resources, and at the same time, the result is not guaranteed."
    3. Danik_Rok
      Danik_Rok 6 October 2014 19: 05
      0
      At least they would have sold not 30, but 150 units, it would be at least a little less offensive.
  28. jovanni
    jovanni 5 October 2014 19: 23
    +2
    Guys, don't worry. How many times have the bourgeoisie sold foreign cars to us, but we still cannot copy their Mercians and behi ... All that "Kalina" then "grant" comes out. And the Chinese - they are people too, are somewhat similar to us ...
    Do not minus, such a joke of humor. Laughter, as they say, through tears ...
  29. ROMANO
    ROMANO 5 October 2014 19: 42
    0
    Quote: lilian
    Do you need to be friends with such a country?


    There are no "friends" in politics. At best, TEMPORARY fellow travelers. History around about. Domansky proved it all to the blind. And at one time we were "friends" with the Germans, and with the British, and with America ...

    How much can one repeat that Russia does not (and never will!) Have more devoted friends than the army, aviation and navy!
    1. lilian
      lilian 6 October 2014 01: 39
      0
      Conflict on Fr. Daman would not have been if Khrushchev had not trampled the name of the deceased Leader into the mud. The Chinese respected him very much, as for example Charles de Gaulle.

      But even as a temporary companion of the Celestial Empire, you need to cherish. Russia alone against the whole West is not enough. First, together deal with a common foe, and then remember about. Damansky.
  30. opus
    opus 5 October 2014 20: 06
    +4
    Quote: Author Leonid Nersisyan
    From all of the above we can draw the following conclusions:

    1) Modern technology can not be instantly copied, and require many years of work.

    2) Copying is always behind.

    3) A copy, often, worse than the original.


    Come on? Seriously?
    Comrade Nersisyan is simply off topic.
    1.
    -developed by LG Nex1 (South Korea) aeronautical station of active jamming ALQ-200 "spirachen" from the American systems. The Americans were "shocked" by the negotiations of South Korea on the sale of this station to Pakistan for installation on "Chinese-made fighters" (apparently, JF-17), and blocked the deal.
    -lawful dismantling for obvious purposes of studying from one of the Boeing F-15K fighter piloted electron-optical station from South Korea, which is part of the Lockheed Martin Tiger Eyes integrated sighting and navigation system.

    - the fire control system of the K1A1 tank (for which the Americans have already made claims earlier simultaneously with the claims for ALQ-200), MLRS K-MLRS Cheonmoo, PLUR Hong Sangeo (K-ASROC) and 324-mm anti-submarine torpedo Cheong Sangeo.
    - "new" South Korean modular MLRS K-MLRS Cheonmoo, capable of using 227-mm missiles of the American MLRS MLRS, as well as 130-mm and 230-mm missiles of South Korean development. Americans suspect that this system was developed with the use of illegally copied technologies and systems MLRS MLRS (c)


    ALL THIS IS SIMPLY SLAMAZED AND PLAYED (reproduces) SOUTH KOREA, quite recently And these are not all examples, and only in the South Caucasus and the USA

    --------------------
    There would be an appropriate technological base and staff !!!
    And China, at this moment in time, probably has the MOST new equipment, and it’ll catch up with all the personnel soon.
    Just try to search for "who is required" in China. Instantly get a job (with good pay, a residence permit with a social package) if you are an engineer, highly qualified worker, scientist, etc.
    MANAGERS, ECONOMISTS, ACCOUNTANTS and other molds - they are not needed in FIG

    2. The history with the atomic weapons of the USSR refutes this fact by 100%
    (Where did we "slam" the secret of the atomic bomb? And who is BETTER?)

    3. LEARNING ON ANOTHER ERRORS !!!
    example: Pale Moon web browser differs from its original Firefox counterpart by a significant number of changes - for the most part, it optimizes the original code, removes unnecessary code, and compiles with optimization for new processors (to actively use their new functionality). IT IS MUCH BETTER
    1. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 7 October 2014 12: 57
      0
      There is nothing to talk about South Korea at all.
      This is a rising star, an analogue of Japan 70-80 years.
      Their developments will soon become the standard of quality in mechanical engineering.

      We can say this: China these days is reaching the level of quality in South Korea, and South Korea is beginning to replace Japan ...
  31. Hannibal Lecter
    Hannibal Lecter 5 October 2014 23: 35
    +1
    Quote: Rurikovich
    Nuuuu, and the development of Chinese specialists does not stand still. And now, with the existence of powerful computers, the likelihood of copying a technology sample with the parameters of this sample increases many times. Therefore, do not flatter yourself request

    We also copied with B52
    1. opus
      opus 6 October 2014 11: 36
      +1
      Quote: hannibal lecter
      We also copied with B52

      and what was "copied" from the B-52?



      What is our LA copy of the B-52?
  32. Bene valete
    Bene valete 6 October 2014 09: 14
    0
    I wouldn't have had much bravado about China's "stupidity".
    China has money and "ambitious goals."
    Considering the global recession of economies, and in particular Russia, where, in fact, discarding the Kremlin propaganda industry (and the enthusiastic squeak of fans of programs like Military Secret) with the defense industry, and with the entire industry, is not at all important. Most of the factories are, salaries (for workers) at the level of janitors (and sometimes even lower). I'm not talking about research institutes at all. And China may well "buy everyone" !!! (In principle, which it does)
    Our single exhibition items, a deeply modernized technology of the 80s, is a drop in the bucket.

    And yet, China is a very peculiar country and to believe everything that they publish you need to be more careful. Maybe just a diso!
  33. Bene valete
    Bene valete 6 October 2014 09: 39
    0
    Quote: Jurkovs
    We all have some kind of corny thinking. No matter how modern our weapons are, the Americans will crush us economically. They have a more developed industry, a more able-bodied population, and so on. Once again, we will lose the economic competition, a lower standard of living will again cause dissatisfaction with a certain part of the population, as it was in the 70s. What to do? Nontrivial solutions are needed. For example, to share with China, for free and for free, our advanced technologies for the creation of atomic submarines and Sinev missiles for them, to create a joint production of strategic bombers, to acquaint them with the achievements in missile defense and the creation of warheads. All this will force China to get out from under our geopolitical umbrella and directly compete with the United States. But the US economy can’t stand this competition and they know it. Those who categorically object to the supply of the most advanced weapons to China until our army is filled with them simply do not think through their thoughts to the end. The saturation of our army with these weapons will not save us from economic competition, and since we will lose it once again, these people unknowingly say that it is better to lie under America than under China. But why? America will again commit genocide, the last example in Ukraine, and China has not been noticed in this over its 2-year history. In addition, it is only worth talking about the transfer to China of manufacturing technologies for the latest weapons, as the United States will come to us with persuasion not to do this. But it’s really worth something to convey, as the Americans will return to us both the Baltic States and the Transcaucasus and our other geopolitical losses, if only we would help them organize a technological blockade of China. Then all the cards will be in our hands, I don’t want to play.


    Daman 1969 Peacefulness of the Chinese.
  34. Greendragon1864
    Greendragon1864 6 October 2014 18: 19
    0
    Nevertheless, the Russian PAK FA is not ready and the contract with the Chinese is already on the nose
  35. waggish
    waggish 11 October 2014 16: 51
    0
    A fairy tale for fools !!!!!!!!!!
  36. Prager
    Prager 3 November 2014 13: 27
    0
    you must be friends with the Chinese carefully, do not tear your shirt on and do not show your generous soul.