Military Review

Automatic guns for armored combat vehicles. Point of view of a Western specialist

92

BBM ASLAV 8x8 Australian Army with M242 BUSHMASTER gun


Requirements and technologies

Medium-caliber automatic guns, intended for installation on armored combat vehicles (BBM), have been constantly developed over the past decades. This applies to their characteristics and operating principles, as well as relevant operational concepts.

In this article, we briefly note the key factors of the growing demand for weapons of this class and the impact of these needs on the choice of the optimal caliber and other characteristics, and then proceed to the description of the defining technologies of modern models.

Large gauges for growing needs

First attempts to arm BBM with more powerful automatic weapons compared to the ubiquitous heavy machine guns (M2 12,7 mm in the West and KPV 14,5 mm in the Warsaw Pact countries) began at the end of 50 and the beginning of 60 in the framework of the general “motorization” of infantry units that affected all the leading armies of the world.

In the West, initially these works, as a rule, consisted in the refinement of automatic guns, originally designed for installation on combat aircraft or anti-aircraft installations. The first tower systems of this type included mainly the Hispano Suiza HS-820 cannon (with a camera for the 20x139 projectile), which was installed on German SPZ 12-3 machines (1800 machines were made for the Bundeswehr in 1958 - 1962 years) and reconnaissance version M-114, and reconnaissance version M-113, and the reconnaissance version M-X-NNXX. tracked armored personnel carrier M-1 US Army. On the other hand, the Russians initially adopted a unique approach, equipping their new BMP-73 (the predecessor of all infantry combat vehicles) 2A28 XNUMX-mm low-pressure thunder cannon, without dividing the Western choice in favor of medium-sized automatic guns. However, they appeared on their next generation machines.

However, these first applications of automatic guns on armored fighting vehicles immediately confirmed not only the very important operational need for them, but also revealed the corresponding shortcomings of the weapons used at that time. Unlike aviation and anti-aircraft weapons, automatic anti-aircraft guns are used to attack a wide range of targets, from unarmored to fortified and armored, often in the same battle. Accordingly, the presence of a dual feed system, which would allow the shooter to quickly switch from one type of ammunition to another, became mandatory.

HS-820 was a cannon with a single supply path, and remained so even after refinement and the receipt of a new designation Oerlikon KAD. For this reason, as well as for industrial policy reasons, at the beginning of 70-s, Rheinmetall and GIAT developed and introduced a new generation of dual-feed 20-mm guns: Mk20 Rh202 for MARDER and M693 F.1 for AMX-10P, respectively.




The progressive increase in requirements for armor penetration of guns BMP as a result of the emergence of enemy vehicles with enhanced protection

Automatic guns for armored combat vehicles. Point of view of a Western specialist

Oerlikon KBA cannon (currently Rheinmetall DeTec) with a cam for 25x137 ammunition


Comparison of the size of the main types of ammunition currently used (or proposed) for automatic guns BMP. From left to right, 25x137, 30x173, 35x228, 40x365R and telescopic 40x255


CT40 gun with loading mechanism and related ammunition

Both Mk20 and M693 guns fired 20 x 139 projectiles, but immediately after they appeared doubts arose about the characteristics of these munitions, which could really satisfy the rapidly developing operational needs regarding the effective distance of the lesion, the impact of the projectile on the final trajectory and armor-piercing strength, especially then dominant concept of warfare in Central Europe. In these scenarios, providing fire support to dismounted infantry units was considered primarily from the point of view of defeating enemy light / medium BBM. Accordingly, one of the most important characteristics of fire support needed for such weapons was a large penetration capability at distances to 1000 - 1500 m. Currently, the smallest caliber capable of penetrating 25 mm thick armor with an 30 inclination (i.e. BMP-1) from 1000 meters , is 25 mm. This led to the fact that several Western armies, primarily led by the United States, missed the generation of 20-mm weapons for their BMP and switched from 12,7-mm machine guns to weapons with the powerful 25 x 137 Swiss projectile. This weapon can be considered as the first, specially designed automatic guns intended for installation on the BMP.

Armament firing 25 x 137 ammunition is currently installed on many different tracked and wheeled APCs, including the American M2 / M2 BRADLEY and LAV25, the Italian DARDO, the Danish M-113A1 with T25 tower, the KI-17THIHIHIHIXIXIXAXIXIXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX-A-1, the Canadian KIHIHIHIXIXIXIXIXIXIXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX-25 87 XNUMX XNUMX ammunition firing ammunition XNUMX x XNUMX, is currently installed on many different tracked and whelpas. Japanese Type XNUMX, Singaporean BIONIX, Kuwaiti DESERT WARRIOR and Australian ASUW.

But “the appetite comes with eating” and a couple of leading armies realized that even 25-mm weapons are not powerful enough. This was due not so much to the same great fears that led to the rapid displacement of the 20 caliber mm with the 25 caliber mm, but rather with a broader perception of the role and task of the BMP. In addition to fire support of dismounted infantry units, infantry fighting vehicles were regarded as an auxiliary combat vehicle for the OBT, responsible for hitting targets that do not require large-caliber ammunition, as well as a kind of “mini-OBT” in scenarios with a lower level of threats. In this case, a gun is needed, capable of firing not only with armor-piercing projectiles, but also high-explosive fragmentation with an appropriate explosive charge.

Accordingly, the British and the Soviet army made thus transition to 30 mm introducing gun RARDEN (x munition 30 170) for machines and WARRIOR SCIMITAR gun and 2A42 (x 30 165) for BMP-2 and BMD-2. Similarly, at the beginning of the 80, the Swedish army launched a program on its BMP (ultimately CV90) and decided to install the Bofors 40 / 70 cannon on it, firing powerful 40 x 365R ammunition.


Rheinmetall Mk30-2 / AVM was developed as the main weapon of the new German BMP PUMA

Relatively recent embodiments of this concept are unique dvuhkaliberny arming unit 2K23 from PCU mounted on the Soviet / Russian BMP-3 (automatic 30-mm gun 2A42 + 100-mm 2A70 gun), and Rheinmetall Rh 503, originally designed for the "unfortunate» MARDER 2 and having an 35 x 228 shot camera. The latter cannon has the potential for further growth, as it can go to the 50 x 330 "Supershot" telescopic projectile by simply replacing the barrel and several components. Despite the fact that the Rh 503 has never been mass-produced, the innovative concept of a quick caliber change aroused interest; It was adopted in particular for BUSHMASTER II (30 x 173 and 40 mm Supershot) projects and BUSHMASTER III (35 x 228 and 50 x 330 Supershot) projects, although none of the operators of these guns have yet taken advantage of these opportunities. .

Currently, there is a kind of general agreement in the sense that 30-mm armament is minimal, which can be installed on the latest generation of armored infantry fighting vehicles and reconnaissance vehicles. With regard to user choice, here is the Type 89 machine with the 35-mm gun, the Dutch and Danish solution for installing the 35-mm gun on your CV90, upgrading the Singapore BIONIX machine and installing the 30-mm gun (BIONIX II), the intention of British Army finally certify CT40 cannon from CTA International (BAE Systems + Nexter), shooting unique 40 x 255 telescopic shots to upgrade British WARRIOR machines (the so-called Warrior BMP Extension Program - WCSP), as well as for promising machines FRES Scout and finally Adopting a South Korean BMP K21 with the local option 40 / 70 gun.

At least, all the above-mentioned European solutions were probably motivated by the return of emphasis to armor-piercing characteristics, based on the understanding that even 30-mm armor-piercing sabot shells (APFSDS) cannot satisfactorily handle the latest Russian BMP-3 with additional booking. In a broad sense, it is important to note that the current deployment of many armies in asymmetrical combat scenarios leads to the introduction of increasingly heavy additional booking kits for infantry fighting vehicles. Despite the fact that this additional armor is mainly designed to protect against improvised explosive devices (IEDs) and RPG-type threats, rather than from automatic cannon fire, it can be assumed that advanced high-end BMPs will need at least 35 – 40 -mm weapons for the successful struggle with modern machines of the same class.

And here comes the puzzle. It is quite obvious that the armament of the BMP cannon caliber 35 - 40 mm in the tower already includes certain compromises regarding the combat weight and the size of the machine (with a direct negative impact on strategic mobility), the allowable ammunition and most importantly the number of infantrymen transported. By increasing the caliber, you can then actually create a light tank with minimal internal space for infantrymen and their regular weapons, both individual and branch armament. If increased armor-piercing capabilities should actually be perceived as mandatory, perhaps the most practical way to achieve this goal is to rely solely on ATGMs, whereas the gun could be optimized mainly, but not exclusively, to destroy unarmored or partially armored targets. Thus, we see a full cycle of return to the philosophy of the BMP-1.

As for the progress in ammunition, the two most significant events were probably the appearance of APFSDS armor-piercing shells (armor-piercing sabot with a stabilizing shank (feathered)) for 25-mm (and larger) weapons, and the development of high-explosive ordnance ABM (Air Bursting) Munition - Air Explosion Projectile) or HABM (high-speed ABM) technology with an inductive electronic fuse; first here was the concept of AHEAD from Oerlikon for shells from 30 mm and above. These projectiles allow you to effectively strike personnel, located behind natural shelters.


Apparently, a secondary, but really important issue in connection with the installation of automatic guns of BBM is the removal of spent cartridges, preventing their rebound inside the fighting compartment, so they become potentially dangerous. On the photo of the DARDO infantry fighting vehicle of the Italian army with the Oerlikon KBA 25 mm cannon, open hatches for ejection



On the Swedish BMV CV90 installed version of the ubiquitous anti-aircraft gun Bofors 40 / 70; when installed, it flips on 180 degrees


Simplified concept of a chain driven cannon

Main Specifications

Proceeding from the firing regimes of powerful ammunition, all automatic armored vehicles for BBM, which are currently available on the market, are distinguished by tight locking, that is, the breech block is rigidly locked with the receiver / barrel assembly during firing. This can be obtained by either a butterfly valve with locking protrusions (for example, Oerlikon KBA 25 mm), shutters with retractable locking combat shutters (retractable locking flaps) (for example, Rheinmetall Mk20 Rh-202, GIAT MS93 F1) and vertical. (for example, Bofors 40 / 70) or horizontal (RARDEN) sliding gates. The revolutionary CTA 40 gun is special in its class, it is characterized by a horizontally rotating (90 degrees) charging chamber, separated from the barrel.

As for the principles of operation, most of the usual practical concepts of such weapons consist in a long rollback, work due to removal of gases, hybrid systems and power from an external source.


The appearance of 25 x 137 armor-piercing sub-caliber ammunition significantly improved the armor-piercing characteristics of 25-mm weapons


Prototype BMP WARRIOR with the CT40 gun installed during firing tests

Long pullback

In all armaments that use recoil forces and rigid locking, the energy required to perform the firing cycle is applied to the bolt due to the reverse movement of the bolt itself and the barrel, locked together and rolled away under the pressure of powder gases. In the system with a “long recoil”, the bolt and barrel roll back a distance greater than the length of the non-shot projectile. When the pressure in the chamber decreases to acceptable levels, the shutter is unlocked and begins the opening / removing sequence of the liner, while the barrel returns to the front position, the shutter then also moves forward due to its spring, sends a new shot and locks it.

This principle offers a certain set of advantages for tower armament designed to destroy ground targets. The movement back, being relatively less intensive than in the case of the short-roll design, is transformed into smaller forces transmitted to the mechanisms of the gun and its installation, which improves the accuracy of firing. In addition, the shutter, locked for a longer period of time, facilitates the removal of powder gases through the muzzle and prevents them from getting into the fighting compartment of the machine. These advantages have to pay a relatively low rate of fire, but this is not a significant problem for the BMP.

A typical example of weapons based on the work of a long recoil is RARDEN 30 mm and Bofors 40 / 70. It is also interesting to note that two manufacturers that are traditional supporters of gas-fired designs, namely the Swiss company Oerlikon (now Rheinmetall DeTec) and the Russian company KBP, adopted the concept of a long recoil for weapons specially designed for installation on BMP (KDE 35 mm for Japanese Type 89 and 2A42 30 mm for BMP-3, respectively).

The principle of operation due to the removal of gases

Originally developed by John Browning, this system relies on energy derived from the pressure of powder gases discharged at some point along the barrel. While several variants of this concept are used in handguns, most of the automatic guns operating with exhaust gases for infantry fighting vehicles are based either on the piston principle, where gases press on the piston, which is directly connected to the bolt and pushes it back, or on the principle gas exhaust when gases transfer energy directly to the slide frame.

When compared with the principle of direct recoil, the advantage of the principle of action due to the removal of gases is that the barrel is fixed (and, therefore, accuracy is increased), it is possible to adjust the firing cycle in accordance with weather conditions and the type of ammunition due to the appropriate setting of the gas release valve . On the other hand, the entire gas system must be carefully fitted to prevent toxic powder gases from entering the crew compartment.

Mixed process

In many designs of automatic guns, gas work is actually associated with other concepts, leading to what might possibly be called a hybrid (mixed) process (although this is not a universally accepted definition).

The most common solutions combine gas operation with recoil (thus, the energy required to carry out the firing cycle affects the valve due to the reverse movement of the liner caused by the pressure of the gas). The gases emitted from the barrel are used only to unlock the bolt from the receiver, after which the back gases push the bolt back. The whole implement is then rolled back to 20 - 25 mm, this energy is used to operate the feed system.

Such a principle “gas operation + free gate” allows using relatively easy and simple mechanisms, which led to the adoption of this principle for Hispano Suiza automatic guns after the Second World War (for example, HS-804 20 x 110 and HS-820 20 x 139), as well as for several guns from Oerlikon, GIAT and Rheinmetall.

The operation of gases can also be combined with recoil of the barrel, as is customary, for example, for the Oerlikon KBA cannon (25 x 137), originally developed by Eugene Stoner.


The Danish (in the photo) and the Dutch army chose the ATK BUSHMASTER III cannon, firing powerful 35 x 228 ammunition. It is also possible to upgrade to a version of the 50 x 330 "Supershot" for installation on the new BMP CV9035


The twin gun Nexter M693 F1 on tank AMX-30. It has a piston mechanism with exhaust gas and a rotary shutter with retractable locking shutters


The Rheinmetall Rh 503 cannon pioneered the concept of an automatic cannon, which is capable of firing ammunition of two different calibers by simply replacing the barrel and several components.

Armament with external power supply

The most typical examples of externally powered automatic cannons are probably Gatling's revolving designs and designs, but they are definitely designed to achieve high rate of fire and thus are not interesting for installation on BBM. Rather, external-powered armament mounted on an armored vehicle is mainly intended to enable the rate of fire to be adapted to the particular characteristics of the targets being hit (the rate of fire, however, is always less than that of similar weapons acting by venting). This type can be easier, cheaper and requires less volume. In addition, an external powered armament is by definition free from misfires, due to the fact that a defective shot can be extracted without interrupting the firing cycle.

Critics of the concept of weapons with external power pay attention to the fact that any damage and damage to the electric motor and / or power supply can make the gun inoperative. While this is certainly true, at the same time, it should be borne in mind that turning off the power will also damage optical-electronic devices (scopes, displays and a stabilization system), and in this case the armament working due to recoil, it actually becomes useless.

"Chain" systems

The Chain Gun chain gun (a registered trademark, not a general definition) developed at the beginning of 70 by the then Hughes company (later McDonnell Douglas Helicopters, later Boeing, now ATK) uses an electric motor to drive a chain that moves along a rectangular contour through 4 asterisks. One of the chain links is connected to the bolt and moves it back and forth for loading, firing and removing and ejecting the sleeves. During each complete cycle consisting of four periods, two periods (movement along the long sides of the rectangle) determine the time required for moving the bolt forward and loading the projectile into the chamber and extracting it. The remaining two periods during the movement of the chain on the short sides of the rectangle determine how long the shutter remains locked during firing and open to extract the liner and ventilate the powder gases.

Since the time it takes for the chain to complete a full cycle in a rectangle determines the rate of fire, a change in engine speed allows the chain gun to fire, in principle, with a continuous speed varying from single shots to the maximum safe rate of fire depending on the speed of pressure drop in the barrel after the shot, mechanical endurance and other factors. Another important advantage is that the design allows you to have a very short receiver, which facilitates the installation of weapons inside the tower.

The most famous and widely spread chain guns are the BUSHMASTER cannons, including the M242 (25 x 137), Mk44 BUSHMASTER II (30 x 173) and BUSHMASTER III (35 x 228).

Nexter Electrical System

The Nexter M811 25 x 137 cannon is mainly installed on the new VBCI 8x8 infantry fighting vehicle, and is also in service with the Turkish army (ACV); It is based on the patented external drive concept. The electric motor drives the cam shaft inside the receiver, whose rotation locks and opens the bolt, as it moves back and forth. This roller is also connected by gear to the feed mechanism so that the loading is precisely synchronized with the movement of the shutter. Shooting modes - single shot, short burst and continuous burst.

Push system

The so-called Push Through system developed by CTA International for its armament CT 40 uses the most innovative, if not revolutionary, principle of operation among all described in this article. In this case, there is a very strong link between the principle of operation and the ammunition, consisting in the fact that the concept of "pushing through" strictly depends on the availability of telescopic ammunition with a perfect cylindrical shape.

Cylindrical ammunition allows you to use the loading mechanism, in which the powder chamber is not part of the barrel, but rather a separate unit that rotates around the axis on the 90 ° electric motor for loading. Each new projectile pushes the previous cartridge case (hence the “pushing”), after which the camera turns to align with the barrel for firing. This completely eliminates the entire extraction / removal sequence required for conventional “bottle” ammunition, leading to a simpler and more compact mechanism and loading process with smaller moving parts, which would ideally be suitable for installation inside the tower. The CT cannon occupies about the same space as a regular 25-mm gun, but at the same time, it offers much higher performance (for example, the APFSDS armor-piercing projectile will pierce steel armor with a thickness more than 140 mm). Also, this unique loader mechanism allows the breech to be removed far in advance, thereby the communication between crew members and its “fighting qualities” are significantly improved.

However, it should be noted that this elegant and (apparently) simple principle of operation really requires a thoroughly crafted design and high production culture in order to guarantee a general gas-tightness between the powder chamber and the barrel.


Schematic representation of the principle of operation of the CT40 gun with telescopic ammunition


APFSDS 35 x 228 projectile (left) and corresponding 50 x 330 "Supershot" ammunition (center and left)


The Rheinmetall RMK30 (pictured during shooting tests on the WIESEL conveyor belt) is the world's first recoilless automatic gun. It has an external drive, a three-chamber turret design, shoots 30 x 250 bezgolzovye ammunition, while part of the powder gases is thrown back, compensating for rollback; This allows for lighter and less durable structures. Although RMK30 was originally designed for installation in helicopters, it can also be used in combat modules on light BBM


The ABM (air burst munition) ABM split air munition model with a programmable fuse. The projectile has an electronic module that is programmed inductively at the muzzle (by compensating for different initial speeds) in order to guarantee accurate delivery of the warhead. ABM ammunition is capable of striking a wide range of targets on a modern battlefield, including infantry fighting vehicles, ATGM installations, dismounted troops and helicopters.



ATK's BUSHMASTER II cannon is designed for 30 x 173 ammunition, but can easily be remade to fit Supershot 40-mm shots

Modern tendencies

While all the principles of work described above are currently used simultaneously and in parallel, there is an unmistakable trend in the West in the direction of accepting structures with external power, while the Russians remain loyal to the traditional concepts of gas offtake. With regard to the choice of caliber, here, in addition to operational considerations, industrial and financial issues also play an important role. In particular, the typical example is the Bundeswehr. The German army initially adopted 20 x 139, at the beginning of 80-s deciding to go to 25 x 127, for which it installed a Mauser Mk25 Mod.E cannon in the KuKa tower as an upgrade of its MARDER. Later, the upgrade was canceled and it was decided to go straight to MARDER 2 with a Rheinmetall Rh503 35 x 288 / 50 x 330 Supershot cannon, but after the fall of the Berlin Wall and the end of the cold war, MARDER 2 with its Rh503 canceled and chose a more acceptable and clearer in the best way for good design to make a good one and more and more and more 30 2 x 30 for the new PUMA BMP.

In a broad sense, 20 x 139 is currently the only projectile for older-generation machines awaiting decommissioning. The 25 x 137 ammunition is still “valid” as an acceptable compromise between performance and price, but for new-generation vehicles or re-ordered, for wheel models, low weight, compactness and cost are the main reasons. In fact, 30 x 173 was chosen as the base case when there are no valid reasons to have a smaller or larger caliber. He adopted, for example, Austrian The ULAN, Spanish PIZARRO, Norwegian CV9030 Mk1, Finnish and Swiss CV9030 Mk2, promising machines EFV US Marine Corps, the Polish Rosomak, Portuguese and Czech PANDUR II, Singapore BIONIX II, and many others. The 35 x 228 ammunition is an expensive solution, but with high performance, while the 40 x 365R has a pair of “fans” too.


The gun with external power Nexter M811 (25 x 137) was adopted for the new VBCI machine of the French army

The real way forward is quite clearly represented not by the CT 40 gun as such, but of course by the advanced technologies that it personifies. But whether financial and industrial factors will allow to realize these promising advantages and actually achieve operational status, the future will show.

Thus, it is very encouraging that ongoing work is continuing on an automatic 40-mm weapon system with CTWS (cased telescoped weapon system) telescopic ammunition developed by CTA International, as part of the WARRIOR (WCSP) BMP life extension program, for the FRES Scout reconnaissance vehicle British Army and a promising reconnaissance vehicle for the French Army. The CTWS weapon system has already fired and was tested with its original ammunition supply system, but the upcoming firing this year will demonstrate for the first time the capabilities of the CTWS, which will be installed in a full-fledged WCSP tower. However, the shooting will most likely be conducted from a stationary position, and not in motion, as representatives of Lockheed Martin UK had previously suggested.

The next step will be negotiations on the serial production of the CT gun (CTWS). BAE Systems Global Combat Systems - Munitions (GCSM), in accordance with a license issued by CTAI, recently submitted a proposal to the British Department of Defense for the production of serial ammunition through an existing supply contract for the UK MASS ammunition. The license will also be issued to Nexter Munitions for the production of mass-produced ammunition for the French arms procurement agency.

Materials used:
Military Technology
www.nexter-group.fr
www.rheinmetall-defence.com
www.cta-international.com
www.baesystems.com
www.atk.com
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  1. avt
    avt 24 July 2014 09: 31 New
    17
    Yeah, 25 mm is small, you need more guns .... laughing He said and will repeat for all amateurs of “Terminator” and admirers of new-fangled BMP and BTR with their 40s, what we’ve done with “scoop” is “Triad” - it is hurt by the experience of past wars and brilliantly executed in metal, nothing fundamentally better than the present ,, Bahchi "with a universal weaving, 30mm and no machine gun. Upgrade, install appliances and improve fire protection for it and you will be happy and woe to the enemy.
    1. Sobol
      Sobol 24 July 2014 09: 56 New
      +3
      The keyword is "past." Since then, the protection of infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers has intensified, and the range has increased. So, the increase in the caliber of the guns, I think, is justified.
      1. avt
        avt 24 July 2014 10: 14 New
        +7
        Quote: SoboL
        The keyword is "past." Since then, the protection of infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers has increased,

        Well, show me a new-fanged armored personnel carrier or infantry fighting vehicle that can withstand a 100mm projectile or a Bakhchi projectile, then we’ll talk about keywords. And at the same time, about the “range of work” taking into account the efficiency of the “work” in comparison with a caliber of 100 mm and 40 -50mm.
        1. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 24 July 2014 11: 36 New
          +1
          Ammunition "Bahchi" includes 30 shells of 100 mm, if not mistaken.
          And they installed it on the 13 ton BMD-4 with bulletproof armor.
          And how does it fit together?

          If on TBMP Terminator, I could understand that ...
          1. IS-80
            IS-80 24 July 2014 17: 55 New
            0
            Quote: voyaka uh
            If on TBMP Terminator, I could understand that ...


            Only not TBMP, but BMPT - Tank Support Fighting Vehicle.
          2. goose
            goose 30 July 2014 09: 51 New
            +2
            You are not mistaken. 22 in the automatic loader, the rest are manual. ATGM originally 3 pieces in the installation, but as I understand it, it depends on the modification, there are others. The infantry squad weapon is standard. It is possible to drop boxes with shells into the airborne squad and turn the car into self-propelled guns.
            The only strange solution is the machine guns in the case, it seems to me that they need to be removed. One in the tower and 2 in the BS is enough. 5 is too much.
        2. TS3sta3
          TS3sta3 24 July 2014 11: 48 New
          0
          bmp-2 with bm bakhcha carries a landing of only five fighters and has lost the ability to swim because of its weight.
          on bmp-3 100-mm gun is certainly quite versatile and powerful, but not for fighting with modern tanks. Penetration: 600 mm (for dynamic protection), for 9М117М1 750 mm for DZ.
          while at the cornet - Penetration for DZ:
          Cornet-E - 1200 mm Homogeneous Armor
          Cornet-D - 1300 mm Homogeneous Armor
          Penetration without DZ:
          Cornet-E - 1300 mm Homogeneous Armor
          Cornet-D - 1400 mm Homogeneous Armor
          those. The anti-tank weapons of the BMP-3 are very weak.
          1. avt
            avt 24 July 2014 13: 44 New
            +9
            Quote: TS3sta3
            on bmp-3 100-mm gun is certainly quite versatile and powerful, but not for fighting with modern tanks. Penetration: 600 mm (for dynamic protection), for 9М117М1 750 mm for DZ.
            while at the cornet - Penetration for DZ:

            Again, twenty-five. And who is stopping to modernize the ATGM ATTACK? Or the 40mm gun of the new armored vehicles perfectly copes with the new protection of tanks, and has an orderly powerful high-explosive impact!?
            Quote: voyaka uh
            And they installed it on the 13 ton BMD-4 with bulletproof armor.
            And how does it fit together?

            Yes, it works well, just like the 125mm on the Octopus is a versatile, floating platform with a set of infantry fire support weapons that is not an MBT, you just need to use it in accordance with the technical capabilities, and not how you want to whine afterwards Guano did. Well, what kind of passion - there is a gun 100, so we will only compare it with the main tank!
            Quote: voyaka uh
            If on TBMP Terminator, I could understand that.

            Well, you have to be full fool to BMD, even with Bahchi, for example, to drive into conditions similar to the Gaza Strip, or simply stupidly in the city! More than once on the site in the comments posted a picture with an experienced Chelyabinsk model Bahkhi on the T-72 platform, but Alas! As a result, they praise the Terminator, which is quietly evolving specifically for this Chelyabinsk facility, and the crew was about to reduce it from 5 to 3 and their main one has already started to ache that it’s a little 30mm liquid and we’ll think about delivering something more, but naturally this is a wish the customer.
            1. TS3sta3
              TS3sta3 24 July 2014 19: 01 New
              +2
              Again, twenty-five. And who is stopping to modernize the ATGM ATTACK? Or the 40mm gun of the new armored vehicles perfectly copes with the new protection of tanks, and has an orderly powerful high-explosive impact!?

              The installation of the guns on the bahche which already has an anti-tank weapon is redundant: why is this gun needed then? on the infantry shoot? when 30-mm is enough. When an 40-mm automatic gun is installed (which is not yet present), the weight of a bm is increased, the chargeable bc is reduced, and so on. And what are the advantages? ability to shoot at tanks? when there is either a ptr or a 100-mm gun that is much more efficient. Against the infantry, again, 30-mm is sufficient, with a larger bc.
              triad, IMHO, is outdated due to the low effectiveness of anti-tank weapons.
              1. Firstvanguard
                Firstvanguard 24 July 2014 20: 08 New
                +7
                Minus from me.
                bm weight increases, portable bk etc. decreases and what are the pluses? the ability to shoot tanks? when there is either a gun or a 100 mm gun, which is much more effective. Against the infantry, again, 30 mm is enough, with a larger carrying bk.
                triad, IMHO, is outdated due to the low effectiveness of anti-tank weapons.

                You have a very vague idea of ​​hostilities, "infantry shooting" is an abstract concept. What infantry? In the open field? In the mountains? In a city building? Entrenched in the folds of the terrain? Dispersed in the "green"?
                It was the same with tanks, it did not occur to me that the working distances for firing from an ATGM and weave are different, the time of aiming is different, and there is opposition to guided missiles. Besides the fact that listed there is still a whole bunch of nuances.
                A real battle, this is one complete contingency. Arms systems are always a compromise between conflicting requirements. BMP, as a class of technology, was conceived for large-scale wars and massive use along with tanks. But in fact it is most often used as an independent unit and should be able to fight in a wide variety of conditions.
                Triad, while the only decent solution.
                1. TS3sta3
                  TS3sta3 24 July 2014 21: 02 New
                  +1
                  what's abstract in infantry shooting? The 2-42 cannon is used in all of these conditions and there is no need for an 40-mm automatic cannon. if such a weapon were necessary, it would have already been put into service.
                  It was the same with tanks, it did not occur to me that the working distances for firing from an ATGM and weave are different, the time of aiming is different, and there is opposition to guided missiles. Besides the fact that listed there is still a whole bunch of nuances.

                  working distance at ptour cornet - 100-5500м. triad - 100-4000. Cornet more efficiently. besides, the triad on tanks applies the same airs as the cornet, only caliber, range and penetrability less. those. Your whole bunch of nuances also acts on the guns of the triad.
                  Triad, while the only decent solution.

                  against tanks she is frankly weak.
                  I do not put a minus. I see you with specific ideas about the fighting, only the advantage of the troops, but the triad over the cornet was not indicated. but I need concrete, not vague ideas.
              2. avt
                avt 24 July 2014 21: 21 New
                +6
                Quote: TS3sta3
                installation pturs on melon which already has an anti-tank gun

                With what fright is it anti-tank ???? Even officially anti-tank SPG is ,, Octopus "!
                Quote: TS3sta3
                when the 30 mm is enough.

                Who needs it and why, when everything in the chorus is simply screaming in the article too - there isn’t enough power, and in particular high-explosive and 40mm and 57mm will not be enough, mortars are already made like 120mm mortars like ours, "Nona", even in the form of a double-barrel and present as almost a great discovery. And we already have YESTERDAY! Upgrade! Work with a fire protection! So no, give us a new sample and without fail like from a fashion exhibition of imported weapons. And then we have everything, soviet and obsolete! We understand for the specifics that's just another 40mm is not enough!
                1. TS3sta3
                  TS3sta3 25 July 2014 00: 04 New
                  0
                  What a fright it anti-tank ????

                  Since 2-70 has weapons in its arsenal.
                  Even the official anti-tank ACS is ,, Sprut "!

                  so what? anti-tank weapons possess, in addition to the octopus, bmd, bmp to fight tanks. Octopus even extra turns out. 120-mm sau nona copes with its work.
                  Increasing the caliber from 30 to 40-mm is excessive gain. the triad is weak due to the weakness of the guns of the 100-mm guns.
                  The 30-mm automatic cannon, the assault rifle, the 120-mm cannon, mortar, pct and possibly the 40-mm automatic grenade launcher (or the automatic cannon of grenade ballistics) is quite enough for a modern battlefield. all this is, why complicate something.
            2. 9781
              9781 26 July 2014 22: 45 New
              +1
              Two things interfere. First: even during the Soviet era, ptuRs were renamed ptuRs, and physics further impedes further modernization of the Bahchi rocket ... and so, 7-8-caliber armor-piercing has been declared. Plus, intensive work is being carried out on all medium calibers. For Kurgan, in the future, already a 45-mm cannon for telescopes in the network was lit
            3. mirag2
              mirag2 27 July 2014 08: 35 New
              -1
              Yes, the crew in Terminator, on the contrary, seemed to be going to increase from 3 to 5 people.
      2. mirag2
        mirag2 27 July 2014 08: 33 New
        0
        I absolutely agree with you — the caliber of the automotive equipment needs to be increased — in my opinion, the 40mm limit — otherwise, you will have to pay too much weight increase for an increase in armor penetration and the possibility of expanding the line of ammunition (their capabilities).
        Well, and of course I would like that if there was a 30mm gun, that would provide a higher initial projectile speed.
      3. mirag2
        mirag2 27 July 2014 08: 46 New
        0
        Just Naryl-about 45mm machine gun with a telescopic shell for the "Kurgan":
        http://gurkhan.blogspot.ru/2012/08/45.html
    2. IS-80
      IS-80 24 July 2014 18: 17 New
      0
      Quote: avt
      nothing fundamentally better than the current ,, Bahchi "c universal weaving, 30mm and no machine gun


      Debatable. That's why there is a 30 mm gun?
    3. storm
      storm 3 August 2017 00: 25 New
      +1
      To support the infantry, instead of a 100 mm gun, a 120 mm rifled gun-howitzer-mortar 2A51 from the NONA-S self-propelled gun is much better suited.
      Paired with 30 mm 2A42, with vertical aiming angles of up to 85 degrees, this combat module will allow firing at the upper floors of buildings with 30 and 120 mm shells and with mine canopy, supporting infantry in the neighboring quarter or behind a mountain slope ....
      Guided Kitolovy and mine Face will fulfill the role of precision weapons to destroy the most important objects.
  2. vomag
    vomag 24 July 2014 09: 42 New
    +5
    You know me, the 40-mm weapon system with telescopic ammunition was very impressive! I did not expect such agility from them ...
    1. ramsi
      ramsi 24 July 2014 10: 18 New
      +2
      and why is such garbage better than a drum? (Pushing can be left)
    2. Tjumenec72
      Tjumenec72 24 July 2014 13: 56 New
      +1
      I understand that this is the same circuit as in the G11 machine
      The main problem is the HIGHEST tolerances with ammunition and the loading mechanism.
      1. Firstvanguard
        Firstvanguard 24 July 2014 20: 11 New
        +2
        The main problem is the HIGHEST tolerances with ammunition and the loading mechanism.

        Which gives rise to another problem, the reliability problem.
        1. anomalocaris
          anomalocaris 26 July 2014 03: 39 New
          0
          Which gives rise to another problem, the reliability problem.

          From which the third follows - cost.
          It was the economic aspects that destroyed the G-11. The rifles themselves were too expensive, but you could somehow come to terms with this, but the cost of the cartridges did not go into any gates.
          Although the idea of ​​telescopic ammunition is not new.
          1. padonok.71
            padonok.71 27 July 2014 07: 58 New
            +1
            G11 also destroyed the standards of NATO, as in its time, FNserii.
            1. anomalocaris
              anomalocaris 27 July 2014 14: 37 New
              0
              That is, again, above all, the economy. Most importantly, the G-11 did not have cardinal advantages compared to a classic automatic. If such advantages were available, we would reconsider NATO standards.
      2. Navigator Basov
        Navigator Basov 10 October 2016 20: 34 New
        0
        The highest tolerances are just not a problem. The problem (and in fact - the engineering task) is to determine the balance of manufacturing accuracy (as a result - prices) and firing accuracy. Here in AK, the highest tolerances, only due to this, he became famous for reliable. It turns out a contradictory comment, from which it is more likely to conclude that you do not understand the essence of the concept of tolerance: more accurate manufacturing is small tolerances (small gaps, precise fitting of parts), and large tolerances are less accurate manufacturing.
  3. inkass_98
    inkass_98 24 July 2014 10: 16 New
    +3
    The article is good, only in the first table for some reason the 2A72 gun is painted for the caliber 23 mm along with the 2A14, although it has been an 30-mm gun all its life.
    1. neznayka
      neznayka 24 July 2014 12: 08 New
      +3
      Yes, and 2K23 includes a gun 2A72 and not 2A42, typos apparently.
  4. Magic archer
    Magic archer 24 July 2014 11: 40 New
    +4
    Author plus! Interesting and detailed!
  5. Sailor
    Sailor 24 July 2014 14: 28 New
    +3
    I think at the present time a caliber of 30 mm is outdated and does not produce the desired effect, it is more expedient to put 45-57 mm on the Kurganets, and for the BMD-4m the Bahcha module is quite acceptable.
    1. Realist1989
      Realist1989 26 July 2014 00: 38 New
      +1
      On a BMD, it would be better to put a module weighing 3 tons with a 30-mm gun, grenade launcher and ATGM (Berezhok), and the gain in mass compared to Bahcha-U (weight 4 tons, or as indicated on the website of Kurganmash - 5 tons) , a whole ton, if not two, would have been used to strengthen the defense ...
    2. mirag2
      mirag2 27 July 2014 08: 50 New
      0
      Here is our gun 45 mm automatic
      1. philippas
        philippas 21 August 2014 21: 32 New
        0
        The main claim to 2a42 is brutal recoil, and accordingly no accuracy in automatic fire. And what about the return on this unit?
    3. Kassandra
      Kassandra 29 July 2014 22: 49 New
      0
      37mm gives sufficient power and will allow the use of a remote fuse
      30mm - no, but more rate of fire
  6. Free wind
    Free wind 24 July 2014 16: 31 New
    +1
    As I recall the main problem of the BMP-1, a small degree of barrel lift. In the mountains, the BMP became absolutely powerless, so the BMP-2 was urgently developed. Where the barrel, albeit of a small caliber, rose almost 80 degrees and could fire not only mountains, but also air targets. I was thinking about installing a recoilless infantry fighting vehicle, it turns out that it was already installed. Another reflection, as if to lay grenades in the barrel, Yes, with a controlled detonation. 30-40 mm grenade is a pretty solid ammunition. and militants hiding behind stones will create big problems
  7. Berezin alex
    Berezin alex 24 July 2014 17: 02 New
    +2
    I believe that the optimal caliber of automatic guns is 30–40 mm, and then the ATGMs. With an increase in the caliber of the gun, ammunition is greatly reduced, the weight of the armored vehicle is increased, and the rate of fire decreases. It is also desirable to have unified ammunition, which simplifies logistics. But we should also develop telescopic ammunition and guns for them, this is a rather promising direction for the development of small-caliber artillery
    1. storm
      storm 3 August 2017 00: 30 New
      +1
      And how do you feel about the BM A-220A caliber 57mm ???
      This is of course the limit, and then ATGM ......
  8. terrible
    terrible 25 July 2014 06: 07 New
    0
    Weakly 30mm on buildings. FBS BT flashes, but falls near the opposite wall. Like an anti-aircraft gun - ???? Best pzrk. 100mm normally works on fortified points.
  9. insafufa
    insafufa 25 July 2014 09: 53 New
    +2
    You all forgot about the good old S-60 57 mm on the new ATOM, 57 mm and the tank on board and the helicopter and infantry fighting infantry playfully. About melon, I’ll say one thing about a 100mm PU gun and a 30mm cannon in a bundle, a hard-won decision during Afghanistan from my optic in Chichen, I will say that the 76mm cannon is full of thunder. A 30mm cannon in the condition of mountains with selector power is an excellent solution both on the slopes and in the green with the field. Only in the city it is rather weak and here, of course, it would come in handy 100mm but it wasn’t on the BMP-2. S-60 has proven its worth in the battles of a kind of SVD among artillery
    1. goose
      goose 30 July 2014 10: 12 New
      0
      Rather, the Rapier SVD among artillery. And the S-60 is just wild flat, like any high ballistic system.
  10. Aristocrat
    Aristocrat 25 July 2014 21: 59 New
    +1
    Quote: Free Wind
    As I recall the main problem of the BMP-1, a small degree of barrel lift. In the mountains, the BMP became absolutely powerless, so the BMP-2 was urgently developed. Where the barrel, albeit of a small caliber, rose almost 80 degrees and could fire not only mountains, but also air targets.

    Not therefore. More precisely, not so much on this.
    The BMP-1 is armed with a 73mm cannon “Thunder” because in those days the military doctrine of a tank throw to the English Channel was in the air. And the bet was on a massive tank offensive. It was also assumed that the main means of counteraction would also be a tank. Therefore, the BMP-1 is armed with an anti-tank gun with ammunition of cumulative action (and only him). By the way, the Americans got BMP-1 in metal and held training matches, the results of which stunned them. BMP-1 in 9 cases out of 10 won the duel with tanks! It is in view of the effectiveness of the new (or rather the first in the world) BMP that the development of our own BMPs has begun around the world.
    But decades have shown that in reality we needed a machine not for global wars, but more universal. Suitable for conflicts of low intensity (for example, Afghanistan), and for wars with superpowers.
    The generals had doubts about the need for a 30mm machine gun. He was not suitable for fighting tanks. But firing from this gun showed that after the shelling of the tank he (the tank) was out of order. Active armor, antennas, surveillance devices were demolished. And also a gun was damaged whose barrel was flashed with 30mm shells for take-off. While after 73mm cumulative ammunition, the tank went under its own power to patch holes.
    Among other things, for those who shot, they know how important the trajectory is flat, the speed of the ammunition's approach to the target, and the effect of the wind on the ammunition. Naturally 73mm feathered active-reactive ammunition was inferior in these parameters. And when you consider that the shooting is highly dependent on qualifications (which is usually not up to par), the 2A42 becomes significantly more efficient (if not tens of times).
    Of course, this gun is not a panacea. It is necessary to continue work both on improving the armament of the BMP, and on work on the BMP itself. We still need TBMP based on both decommissioned tanks and on the basis of promising ones.
    1. anomalocaris
      anomalocaris 26 July 2014 11: 26 New
      +1
      About 2A28.
      The main anti-tank weapons BMP-1 were ATGM "Baby" 2A28 "Thunder" was supposed to block the dead zone launch. The distance of this zone according to the passport 200m in real life is about 400.
      This gun mount quite has an OFS shell. Moreover, it had from the very beginning.
      For horizontal targets, such as "dead infantry" 30-mm machine is completely ineffective. At the slightest error in determining the distance to the target, the shells either bury themselves in front of it, or fly away higher. Another conversation is that in a projectile with a caliber of 40 mm or higher, you can install a remote fuse and not significantly reduce the mass of explosives.
      1. Aristocrat
        Aristocrat 27 July 2014 01: 20 New
        0
        About OF already forgotten. It's a long time already. Years fly by ...
        As for the infantry that lay down, the Thunder cannon is just as ineffective as the automatic, like the tank, etc. Here, either an air blast (difficulties with accurately determining the distance) or a mortar, or an AG-17 or AG-30 with bouncing grenades.
      2. Aristocrat
        Aristocrat 31 July 2014 19: 00 New
        0
        Quote: anomalocaris
        At the slightest error in determining the distance to the target, the shells either bury themselves in front of it, or fly away higher. Another conversation is that in a projectile with a caliber of 40 mm or higher, you can install a remote fuse and not significantly reduce the mass of explosives.

        Determining the range is much more relevant for setting up a "remote tube" for air blasting than for "direct fire".
        For 2A42, determining the range is just as relevant as for any weapon, any caliber, and, moreover, for any small arms. So what's the difference ???
        1. anomalocaris
          anomalocaris 1 August 2014 15: 53 New
          0
          Do you understand the difference between a 30mm automatic gun and a 5,45mm automatic gun?
          For a remote fuse there is a tolerance in the error in determining the range. For example, for three-inch shrapnel, it was more than 500 meters, but at the same time this projectile fired from this gun was extremely effective against UNCovered infantry.
    2. 9781
      9781 26 July 2014 22: 56 New
      +1
      God be with you - BMP-1 won the duel with tanks as much as 9 out of 10. This is where you read such an exciting fantasy? TTX “Thunder” is frankly not impressive, in a cannon duel with BMP tanks they will be destroyed immediately and with great distance and high accuracy (which is just missing “Grom” and the BMP-1 SUO. Except from the ambush 1-2 launches of “Baby” in the rear ... but here everything is very, very doubtful
      1. The comment was deleted.
      2. anomalocaris
        anomalocaris 27 July 2014 03: 57 New
        0
        This is what kind of SLA BMP-1 are you talking about? About puzzle marking of a sight?
      3. Kassandra
        Kassandra 3 August 2014 15: 48 New
        0
        ATGM he won.
    3. goose
      goose 30 July 2014 10: 10 New
      0
      I agree, persistence is very important, the shooters will understand the difference. When the infantry is at a distance of more than 1 km, a normal-caliber machine gun is already ineffective (and even more so 5.56 mm), and for a 30-mm gun it’s quite a working distance, even without a rangefinder. The main thing to put a cross in is order: wind, ballistics, rain for 1 km can still be ignored. At the same time, the OS is quite dangerous for itself, especially in the forest.
      1. Aristocrat
        Aristocrat 31 July 2014 06: 15 New
        +1
        30mm 2A42 was very "respected", or rather, the soldiers of the Abkhazian army feared in the 90s. They were afraid that I was quoting “You don’t have time to really hide. I heard shots and after a second there are tears near you.” And the Georgians had a lot of equipment. It was the Abkhazians who often defended their children with machine guns of Dektyarev (post-war under an intermediate cartridge), guns and other rarities.

        But I did not understand about the forest. Why in the forest? Are trees rolling on your head? Or the fact that explosions occur over their heads?
        1. anomalocaris
          anomalocaris 31 July 2014 16: 46 New
          -1
          Because fragmentation shells are torn falling into the trunk of a tree, and flying not only fragments of the shell, but also broken chips.
          1. Aristocrat
            Aristocrat 31 July 2014 18: 39 New
            0
            I suspect that chips are not the best damaging element. More likely the danger is "air blasting." As a result of which, infantry, even hiding in the trenches, is struck from the top.
            1. Kassandra
              Kassandra 1 August 2014 14: 41 New
              0
              in the forest, on the contrary, hide from artillery.
              1. anomalocaris
                anomalocaris 1 August 2014 15: 47 New
                0
                It depends on which fuse is exposed, and what type of shells are streaming onto your head.
                1. Kassandra
                  Kassandra 1 August 2014 19: 16 New
                  0
                  set...
                  whatever - in any case, wood protects better than air.
                  from mortars the truth is much less so
                  1. anomalocaris
                    anomalocaris 2 August 2014 08: 31 New
                    0
                    This is only when there is a fairly wide array of forest between you and the shooter. Moreover, the forest is quite dense. Then, however, no one will shoot at you from the BMP gun.
                    But high-explosive howitzer shells or mortar mines deep in the drum there is a forest or not.
                    1. Kassandra
                      Kassandra 2 August 2014 12: 47 New
                      0
                      30 meters into the forest and already silence ... it was stated precisely with an emphasis on artillery in general, and not on direct fire direct fire. unlike howitzer shells, a mine lies vertically and has little chance of falling into a tree at a height.
                      1. anomalocaris
                        anomalocaris 2 August 2014 18: 02 New
                        0
                        Why would she fall into a tree? She will explode normally. The only reason to hide in the forest is that the trees delay part of the fragments and nothing more.
                      2. Kassandra
                        Kassandra 2 August 2014 21: 48 New
                        0
                        and then that with an inclined projectile trajectory, many tree trunks come across on the way ...
                        they also break the blast wave
                      3. anomalocaris
                        anomalocaris 4 August 2014 16: 14 New
                        0
                        Nude Nude. For the 152-mm projectile falling on the forest, the trees standing there equally deeply. You see, for 40 kg of steel and 6 kg of explosives, do not give a damn about all kinds of trees.
                        The defeat from the blast wave of a projectile is much smaller than its fragmentation damage. A shell is not a bomb.
                      4. Kassandra
                        Kassandra 5 August 2014 03: 06 New
                        0
                        for the detonator - no
                        the projectile generally has much less fragmentation than the mortar
                        labyrinth seal has not been canceled
                      5. anomalocaris
                        anomalocaris 5 August 2014 15: 41 New
                        0
                        Yah? Seriously?
                        OFS 152 mm has a mass of 43 kg, 120 mm of a mine has a normal weight of 12, and a mine of increased power is 18 kg. Compare z.opu with a finger, baby.
                        Z.Y. And where does the labyrinth seal?
                      6. Kassandra
                        Kassandra 5 August 2014 17: 14 New
                        +1
                        Yah! Stop poking your finger at it and take a shoe brush ...
                        Then blow yourself into her hand through her stubble. Therefore, blow not through her stubble into your hand. Then you write about the difference in sensations

                        PS. Any more or less normal person knows that the fragmentation of a mortar is much more dangerous. I will not write why. You will find yourself in the literature.
                      7. anomalocaris
                        anomalocaris 5 August 2014 18: 25 New
                        0
                        I still do not understand, where does the labyrinth seal? By the way, baby, do you know what that is?
                        Z.Y. Through a brush on uy blow yourself, maybe it’s easier.
                      8. Kassandra
                        Kassandra 5 August 2014 19: 05 New
                        0
                        it’s better to hand, otherwise you will have to bend very much (if you are an uncle, of course, it’s not usual to whistle there), well, dirt will fly there ...
                      9. anomalocaris
                        anomalocaris 6 August 2014 15: 45 New
                        0
                        Yeah. So we don’t understand. Baby, I’m a hydraulic engineer, respectively, telling tales about labyrinth seals on a mortar mine, you can your girl (if she is a girl), I do not need.
                        So baby, only through the brush ...
                      10. Kassandra
                        Kassandra 6 August 2014 19: 56 New
                        0
                        and earlier it seemed to be boasting that the processor itself was collecting ...
                        Well, in that article where it was a surprise for you that not a single dog, Japanese, or processor is in the GOS.
                      11. anomalocaris
                        anomalocaris 7 August 2014 15: 55 New
                        +1
                        Baby, not a processor. It was seamless from "SPECTRUM", I assembled and assembled a computer in 1991. Around the time when YOU walked by yourself. You just very badly imagine what the Soviet Engineer (although I was just a student at that time) and more than bad computer device in the late 80s and early 90s.
                        What is GOS, as well as other control systems, I know much better than you, baby, it seems.
                      12. Kassandra
                        Kassandra 7 August 2014 20: 24 New
                        0
                        tell more about yourself ...
                      13. anomalocaris
                        anomalocaris 8 August 2014 10: 31 New
                        0
                        Why should I tell about myself? You yourself have told everything you can about yourself.
                        Although I can tell you ...
                      14. anomalocaris
                        anomalocaris 8 August 2014 12: 58 New
                        0
                        Z.Y. Better you tell me about labyrinth seals. Today I’m kind, maybe immediately lower the baseboard and will not ...
                      15. Kassandra
                        Kassandra 8 August 2014 14: 39 New
                        0
                        you get out from under it first ...
                      16. anomalocaris
                        anomalocaris 8 August 2014 23: 31 New
                        0
                        I'm looking forward to broadcasting about labyrinth seals, baby.
                      17. Kassandra
                        Kassandra 9 August 2014 06: 10 New
                        0
                        wait ... already got out?
                        and you labyrinth seal to a mine why generally dragged here? It was about the forest.
                      18. anomalocaris
                        anomalocaris 9 August 2014 08: 06 New
                        0
                        for the detonator - no
                        the projectile generally has much less fragmentation than the mortar
                        labyrinth seal has not been canceled

                        Baby, it’s not I who sailed, it’s you who have blabbed. And now I just want to read a detailed study on the effect of labyrinth seals on the density of the fragmentation field of a mortar mine.
                        At the same time, inform about the installation of the DETONATOR.
                      19. Kassandra
                        Kassandra 9 August 2014 10: 27 New
                        0
                        it's not us ... it's chiba, shrimp, imagined.
                        labyrinth - there was a quenching of the blast wave in the forest.

                        do you still insist that a mortar mine is more dangerous than an artillery shell or not?
                      20. anomalocaris
                        anomalocaris 14 August 2014 15: 32 New
                        0
                        It depends on which mine, and with what to compare.
                      21. Kassandra
                        Kassandra 14 August 2014 23: 34 New
                        0
                        no matter what, but in principle.
  11. anomalocaris
    anomalocaris 8 August 2014 13: 00 New
    0
    Baby, do you know what a detonator is?
  12. Kassandra
    Kassandra 8 August 2014 14: 41 New
    0
    so what?
  13. anomalocaris
    anomalocaris 8 August 2014 23: 29 New
    0
    So not in the know ...
  14. Kassandra
    Kassandra 9 August 2014 06: 11 New
    0
    not aware of what?
  • anomalocaris
    anomalocaris 1 August 2014 15: 58 New
    0
    That's when you in the ass, sorry, get "not the best damaging element" and then we'll talk.
    1. Aristocrat
      Aristocrat 2 August 2014 04: 25 New
      0
      The fragments from the RGD-5 almost hit me in the ass. And I didn’t even notice them. So trees are both chips and protection from them.
      1. anomalocaris
        anomalocaris 2 August 2014 08: 18 New
        +2
        RGD-5 has never been distinguished by high destructive abilities. And on the adrenaline, a hit of a pair of three of small fragments can not be noticed, but a hit of a half-meter sliver can not be noticed. I once observed something like this - wood chips broke the biceps of one of my acquaintances, and so it was disabled immediately. Then this wound healed for a very long time.
        Moreover, in the era of sailing ships, the main percentage of the wounded and injured was from wood chips, and not from cores or buckshot.
        1. Kassandra
          Kassandra 2 August 2014 12: 31 New
          0
          there probably was wood chips not from the masts but from the boards of the sides.
          in the forest a whole forest of masts, from one splits into another
          1. anomalocaris
            anomalocaris 5 August 2014 15: 44 New
            0
            And what's the difference chips from what you fly to the fifth point?
            1. Kassandra
              Kassandra 5 August 2014 17: 17 New
              0
              who about what and anomalocaris about the fifth point ...
            2. anomalocaris
              anomalocaris 5 August 2014 18: 28 New
              0
              And you know, baby, a wound in glucius macsimus, is very painful and, as a rule, completely incapacitates homo sapiens.
            3. Kassandra
              Kassandra 5 August 2014 19: 03 New
              0
              did you have at least one?
            4. anomalocaris
              anomalocaris 6 August 2014 16: 31 New
              0
              Baby, I agree, moron is hard to live ... And I feel sorry for you in some places.
            5. Kassandra
              Kassandra 6 August 2014 19: 53 New
              0
              well, it works out for you somehow ... and not so much for you.
            6. anomalocaris
              anomalocaris 7 August 2014 15: 59 New
              0
              Once again, baby, learn at least a little ...
            7. Kassandra
              Kassandra 7 August 2014 20: 27 New
              0
              what exactly?
            8. anomalocaris
              anomalocaris 8 August 2014 10: 35 New
              0
              Well at the moment, at least study physics. As part of the school curriculum (Soviet school).
            9. Kassandra
              Kassandra 8 August 2014 14: 38 New
              0
              better stereometry ... it says with physics that
              when a cannonball hits the side, the sailor will be injured by a fluttered tree in that part of the body which he is turned to him, unless he is behind an internal wooden partition that will stop this chips.
              the same - in the forest, the nearest trees will hold the chips to the one from which it was split off
              there are few trees (masts) on the open deck, so this does not work.
            10. anomalocaris
              anomalocaris 9 August 2014 00: 09 New
              0
              Baby, stereometry is a branch of geometry. Moreover, there is such a textbook 6-10 class Pogorelov. Read it and you will be happy ...
            11. Kassandra
              Kassandra 9 August 2014 06: 13 New
              0
              Is that all you know about her? I saw a new clever word and you, shrimp, became fat ...
            12. anomalocaris
              anomalocaris 9 August 2014 08: 11 New
              0
              Wow, they’re talking, baby. You will be surprised, but unlike you, I know a lot of smart words, moreover, I fully understand what they mean.
              Z.Y. Anomalocaris have a more than indirect relation to shrimp. Learn the materiel.
            13. Kassandra
              Kassandra 9 August 2014 10: 18 New
              0
              that is, you distinguish krogug from square? ... Oh really?
            14. anomalocaris
              anomalocaris 14 August 2014 15: 55 New
              0
              Here you do not believe, distinguish. Even hexagon from round.
              Baby, you go to the forest, I’m enough to talk to idiots and at work.
            15. Kassandra
              Kassandra 14 August 2014 23: 32 New
              0
              here you are and ask them for a start why when in the field the wind is quiet in the forest.
  • Kassandra
    Kassandra 3 August 2014 15: 50 New
    0
    the thunder did not penetrate the duval. 30mm queue - broke, that's all.
    there are also anti-tank anti-tank awls for 30mm, all MBT are taken aboard and stern normally
    1. Aristocrat
      Aristocrat 4 August 2014 01: 26 New
      +1
      How did the 73 mm CUMULATIVE shot to the gun “thunder” not take duval? He took tank armor, but he didn’t ...
      In fact, it was the use of cumulative grenades (from RPG-7) for duvols and adolescents and their enormous consumption in a war where the enemy had virtually no armored vehicles that caused commander indignation. Like, "where are you grenades," they cost money! "
      1. anomalocaris
        anomalocaris 4 August 2014 16: 21 New
        0
        2A42 is automatic. The line will ruin both the duval and the panel house. 2A28 - the gun is not automatic. A cumulative shell will pierce a meter of brickwork, but one and a hole will be several millimeters in diameter.
        1. Aristocrat
          Aristocrat 5 August 2014 02: 38 New
          0
          A prefabricated house doesn’t destroy the tank gun’s RP ... Even if there are a dozen or more of them (RP) ... And you speak for 30mm ...
          In armor, the hole from the cumulative jet really has a compact location. But we are talking about "masonry". Look at the photos of grenades like PG in brickwork. There are a lot of them on the Internet. The hole is very solid. At the same time, everyone who is on the other side of the “blow” (or wall) is struck by the resulting cloud of ceramic fragments (pieces of brick).
          The striking factor of the cumulative ammunition is not only the "jet". Even in a tank, the crew is struck not so much by a stream as by “secondary” fragments of armor, excessive pressure (causing explosive injuries), as well as by primary fragments, that is, fragments of the ammunition itself and even more so by the impact core formed from the funnel material.
          That is, the defeat through the brickwork of PG-7v (for example) is very effective. Although I do not argue that this task is much better handled specially designed for this thermo-baric ammunition.
        2. Kassandra
          Kassandra 5 August 2014 02: 42 New
          0
          generally just knock out a cavity, if only the duval is not quite thin.
          1. Aristocrat
            Aristocrat 5 August 2014 03: 27 New
            0
            Excuse me :) Well, HOW does a cumulative grenade flush tank armor, but in a clay daub it knocks a cavern :)
            1. Aristocrat
              Aristocrat 5 August 2014 11: 27 New
              0
              Maybe tanks should not be made of steel but sculpted from clay :)?
              1. Kassandra
                Kassandra 5 August 2014 11: 43 New
                0
                it’s impossible to make clay alone - a 30mm machine will break, and ceramic inserts with metal balls and voids are made, this is generally the English “Dorchester”. he appeared in the USSR even earlier than in England, so he is not so English ...
                1. anomalocaris
                  anomalocaris 8 August 2014 10: 48 New
                  0
                  This baby is right this time. In the same T-64, the zygomatic parts of the tower were made of complex cast metal, with the inclusion of voids and sand rods. This was done precisely to increase the resistance of armor against a cumulative projectile.
                  1. Kassandra
                    Kassandra 9 August 2014 06: 20 New
                    0
                    can you pedophile
            2. Kassandra
              Kassandra 5 August 2014 11: 41 New
              0
              dissipates in heterogeneities
              But how is heavy water the best neutron moderator?
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Aristocrat
    Aristocrat 27 July 2014 01: 52 New
    +1
    Do not forget that at the time of the creation of the Penny, the tanks of the "west" were not armed with ATGM (s) (the edge of Sheridan). Unlike BMP-1. So "9 out of 10" is very much like the truth. In any case, information from Shipunov (I think everyone is aware of who he is). From the memories of the creation, more precisely, of the armament of the BMP-2 with its offspring 2A42. So if it’s a fantasy then it’s certainly not mine. And my little advice. You should not say in a similar tone that you would not be perceived as a b.s. If he (advice) is of course needed and will lie on fertile ground.
    I think you should not discuss the accuracy of tank guns and guided missiles?
    And you're talking about “from the rear” ... BMP-1 - an offensive weapon that fits perfectly into the doctrine of a tank throw (strike).
    1. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 27 July 2014 11: 09 New
      +1
      During the "penny" reigned in all Western tanks
      English 105 mm gun with excellent cop.
      I don’t know how BMP-1, but she confidently punched T-54 and T-55 anywhere,
      including forehead. With the T-62 it was no longer so easy, but bearable. A T-72 with DZ demanded an increase in caliber to 120 mm.
      1. Aristocrat
        Aristocrat 27 July 2014 13: 38 New
        +1
        What does a break through? You definitely do not hear.
        Do you think ATGM has less penetration?
        It's about the likelihood of damage, which primarily depends on the likelihood of ammunition falling into the target, and already in the second from armor penetration. I hope you know why guided ammunition was created at all ???
        In general, your confidence in the defeat of tanks and the assumption that the BMP-1 quote "I do not know how BMPs" casts doubt on what you are talking about ... Don’t take criticism to heart. But what’s breaking through "anywhere" the tank will easily penetrate a light armored vehicle with bulletproof armor ...
        1. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 27 July 2014 17: 06 New
          0
          About the penetration of BMP-1 compared to tanks, I ironized.
          It is clear that a tank shell is guaranteed to penetrate it like a blotter if
          penetrates the enemy's MBT.
          Now about cumulative missiles and shells. Their armor penetration is NOT
          associated with distance and speed, but strictly related to the diameter of the ammunition and the amount of explosives.
          Since it is necessary to place inside a copper cone of a certain ratio of diameter and length, which creates the killer of tanks - Kumm.stryu.
          If the cone is small, you won’t break through the thick armor, even though you crack.
          Therefore, a 76 mm BMP-1 missile has very few chances to penetrate a tank, the shell that was popular in the 60s and 80s had a much larger projectile, and the ATGM 105 mm (Cornet) had excellent chances.
          1. Aristocrat
            Aristocrat 27 July 2014 18: 10 New
            +1
            Glad for you to read about the COP. I see read.
            It remains to learn to listen and hear.
            What does the power of ammunition have to do with it?
            For the 50th time I say that we are talking about the probability of the destruction of the enemy. And not about the power of ammunition. Or do you like to crack into the void? You do not adhere to the topic of conversation at all.
            It's not about cornets. And what is "cooler." It is clear that the coolest of all the cool Merkava and that's it :)
            Think for yourself. If the BMP-1 were so bad as you are trying to build speculation here, would the whole world be in a hurry to create their own BMP so hopeless in your words?
            In the meantime, your only good reason to poke the mouse in the "minus".
            1. voyaka uh
              voyaka uh 27 July 2014 19: 07 New
              +2
              I do not deny even very rude opponents.
              And even more so - as polite as you.
              It’s strange that you don’t understand the connection between caliber and power
              ammunition. It’s somehow strange to explain that a rocket of caliber 70 mm
              cannot penetrate the armor of a tank ... I thought it was trivial.
              1. Aristocrat
                Aristocrat 28 July 2014 13: 15 New
                +1
                Match your own Nick.
                I try anyway.
                As for the caliber, I don’t remember saying that the smaller the caliber, the greater the penetration ... This is true only for sub-caliber shells (talking about the diameter of the core), for cumulative shells there is a directly proportional relationship. Although not quite direct. It affects both the shape of the cone and the composition and presence of the metal cone, the properties and composition of explosives, etc.
                As for up to 70mm, I already wrote to you that the caliber of ATGMs is by no means a child ... 125mm. That is, as it were, bigger than the English 105mm gun you respect so much.
      2. philippas
        philippas 21 August 2014 21: 52 New
        0
        HESH landmines
  • voyaka uh
    voyaka uh 27 July 2014 11: 28 New
    +2
    "By the way, the Americans got BMP-1 in metal
    fights the results of which stunned them. BMP-1 in 9 cases out of 10 won the duel with tanks! "///

    Fake.
    In some such reality, a BMP with bulletproof
    the armor that the machine gun pierces through can win
    duel at the tank? Only if the tank is abandoned by the crew ...
    I, too, somehow shot a tank from a Dragon ATGM - hit (from the second time) ducking! victory!
    Only it was a target tank ... miserable T-34/85 in holes, like
    sieve. If he was on the move and armed, the result would be, I believe, not in my favor ...
    1. Aristocrat
      Aristocrat 27 July 2014 18: 05 New
      +1
      Read above. Read carefully.
      The same is true in that reality in which the T-70 with frontal armor 45mm (plywood onboard generally) with a 45mm caliber gun knocked down Ferdinand with 150mm frontal armor and 88mm gun.
      Learn the story. And judging by the knowledge of the Russian language, this is your story too.

      Unlike the t-70 BMP-1, it is generally not required to hit the stern or board. Her Majesty's cumulative funnel and ammunition control channel is doing its job.

      Again, in the same reality in which the “operator" of the RPG-7 without body armor wins the duel against the tank.

      Fershteyn?
      1. voyaka uh
        voyaka uh 27 July 2014 19: 02 New
        +1
        Sorry, I do not study exploits and heroism. Leave your examples to inspire adolescents.
        Our exploits are strictly prohibited. In the infantry there was a strict instruction: "I saw a tank close - tell the coordinates above and hide." They deal with tanks 1) tanks 2) aviation 3) ATGM special forces.
        The infantry has enough worries with machine gunners, snipers, mines ... just dodge ....
        For the same reason, the IDF does not and will not have BMP cartons.
        And for Americans and British BMPs weigh under 30 tons - like tanks.
        1. Aristocrat
          Aristocrat 28 July 2014 13: 09 New
          +1
          Teenagers are now inspired only by Jobs bitten by apples and the smell of green toilet paper with the image of impudent Saxon faces with paces under the wigs.

          Once again, you have proved yourself in the knowledge (or ignorance) of the history of "tank building", the doctrines and variety of military theater. As well, even the fact that the BMP-1 (2) has long been outdated. Comparing them with modern infantry fighting vehicles is at least silly. You still speculate that the Molotov cocktail is inferior to RPG-7 because of this and that ...
          BMP and MBT are created on the basis of dozens of factors. I would like to see some kind of Bradley or Marder or Namer be able to fight in the area where I am now :) Taiga not far from Khanty-Mansiysk, where forests, marshy soil and everything is dotted with rivers and streams :) In deserts and urban areas of words No, I need TBMP. For which I advocate.
  • Aristocrat
    Aristocrat 27 July 2014 19: 02 New
    +1
    Quote: voyaka uh

    Therefore, a 76 mm BMP-1 missile has very few chances to penetrate a tank, the shell that was popular in the 60s and 80s had a much larger projectile, and the ATGM 105 mm (Cornet) had excellent chances.


    You are trying to look like a specialist in this field. Well then, for reference, the Thunder gun caliber is 73mm and not 76mm. But you are talking about ATGM baby. Oops ... And this ATGM has a 125mm caliber ...
    And breaking through 400 mm at an angle of 90 degrees. And 200 mm at 60 degrees.

    These ATGMs knocked out the M48A3, M41, M60 and Centurion Asaf Jaguri tanks in 73 during the Arab-Israeli war. A little 800 tanks of Israel were shot down. True, Israel is inclined to underestimate losses and Arabs to overestimate. Even if you divide this figure by three, a very solid figure is obtained. At the same time, our newly-minted expert in this matter stated that de "fuck what you peel." But the gun’s supposedly 105mm ... Which doesn’t hit accurately at 3000m ... And the projectile is not corrected in flight ... Yes, and the height of the tanks is significantly higher than BMP_1 which affects the range of a direct shot, and how you should know the probability defeats in a duel.
    Something like this.
    1. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 27 July 2014 19: 21 New
      +1
      We talked about BMP - outwardly spectacular, but incredible
      dangerous to his crew and landing machine. No wonder no normal
      the soldier will not go inside her - only on the armor outside.

      ATGM caliber 125 mm - quite powerful and several dozen Israeli tanks
      bold Egyptian calculations (in each - an officer) in 1973 knocked out at Sinai.
      Although the main losses of Israel in the tanks were from the Syrian OBPS tanks T-62.
      1. Aristocrat
        Aristocrat 28 July 2014 12: 56 New
        0
        Quickly, you renounced your words when you realized that you had said a lot of things, and even without appeal form, about which you resolutely swim finely :)

        And as I see the goal of being known as a specialist, they quickly changed to the goal of crap BMP-1 :) As is typical for Middle Eastern characters :)

        I drove under armor and on. Both on the Beha and on the BTR-70. And if the BMP armor can be called such, then the armored personnel carrier bends from being pressed with a fist.
        And for your information, armor is driven for fear of land mines and anti-tank missiles.
        Examine the question.

        I'm not talking about the fact that the BMP-1 is decisively outdated. As well, and BMP-2.
        1. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 28 July 2014 13: 45 New
          +1
          You know, for "Aristocrat" you, perhaps ... go too fast
          on the opponent’s personality no

          As for technology, I stopped understanding what you want
          say your posts. The dispute began with
          "BMP-1 in 9 cases out of 10 won the duel with tanks!" [Quote from Aristocrat]
          What surprised the forum participants (and mine, in particular).
  • Aristocrat
    Aristocrat 28 July 2014 16: 07 New
    +1
    Quote: voyaka uh
    You know, for "Aristocrat" you, perhaps ... go too fast
    on the opponent’s personality no

    As for technology, I stopped understanding what you want
    say your posts. The dispute began with
    "BMP-1 in 9 cases out of 10 won the duel with tanks!" [Quote from Aristocrat]
    What surprised the forum participants (and mine, in particular).


    It’s not me who loudly began to speak scornfully of my words (fake, “in what reality”, etc. etc.). In reality, such appeals would be challenged to a duel. Here, only verbal. Which you obviously lost.
    I am ready to apologize for the inappropriate treatment. But only if before me a worthy person. One who does not accept nobility for weakness. I sincerely hope that in front of me is just such a person.

    As for the “ceased to understand”, then I got the impression against the background of your messages that they did not immediately understand. I don’t know the reasons for this.

    As for the words of Shipunov (the creator of 2A42) that I voiced here, they were "surprised" only by you and another forum member ... Of the dozens who left posts in this topic and dozens who visited it ...
  • Tetros
    Tetros 29 July 2014 00: 24 New
    0
    BMP-1 for its time was even thicker than armored vehicles of the west. The armor was supposed to hold bullets about the fragments. There was no talk of any landmines then.
    The BMP-1 was clearly faster than the tanks of the Western countries then, it is logical that if the BMP and the tank destroy each other from the first hit, the most agile will win.
    Why is everyone so fond of comparing the technique of 50 years ago with modern models?) Well, yes, new bullets sew and what? The task of the BMP at that time, to bring the calculation to the right place, having protected small arms from fire and to maintain fire from a long distance, if a tank appeared, try to destroy it from the first hit, that's all. And all this in conditions of a large-scale 1rd World War.
    1. goose
      goose 30 July 2014 10: 19 New
      0
      3 have the same tasks, but performed under modern conditions. And the opportunity to arrange genocide in a small village with houses is more expensive than the theoretical opportunity to fight off a couple of nedosryad, because Marder, etc. has a reservation all the weaker than the Leopard.
    2. Kassandra
      Kassandra 2 August 2014 12: 52 New
      +1
      BMP is a battlefield machine, with a distant (or nothing at all) is an armored personnel carrier.
  • Aristocrat
    Aristocrat 29 July 2014 07: 59 New
    0
    Quote: Tetros
    BMP-1 for its time was even thicker than armored vehicles of the west. The armor was supposed to hold bullets about the fragments. There was no talk of any landmines then.
    The BMP-1 was clearly faster than the tanks of the Western countries then, it is logical that if the BMP and the tank destroy each other from the first hit, the most agile will win.
    Why is everyone so fond of comparing the technique of 50 years ago with modern models?) Well, yes, new bullets sew and what?


    The BMP at that time had an advantage in range and accuracy thanks to the ATGM.

    Yes. Especially they love to haul out the now obsolete Russian equipment renegades of all the bruises. From those who have already exchanged their homeland for thirty silver shekels, to those who sell their mother for green candy wrappers and the opportunity to smoke the sky at all costs.
  • goose
    goose 30 July 2014 10: 02 New
    0
    Quote: voyaka uh
    I don’t know how BMP-1, but she confidently punched T-54 and T-55 in any place, including her forehead. With the T-62 it was no longer so easy, but bearable. A T-72 with DZ demanded an increase in caliber to 120 mm.

    The tower is not always, it is perfectly armored at the T-54, T-55. In the corps - I agree, but any place, if not a wild rebound. I did not understand the difference in the T-62, why is it better armored against the L7? Maybe the T-62M?
    1. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 30 July 2014 17: 12 New
      0
      The T-62 made problems not with armor, but with a 115 mm gun with OBPS.
      In Israel, they were sure that the USSR would strengthen the armor of tanks according to the results
      The 6-day war of 67, but instead increased the gun.
      1. Aristocrat
        Aristocrat 31 July 2014 06: 08 New
        0
        T-62 was created as a tank destroyer. By and large, this is the same T-54/55, only with a new turret and a more advanced weapon. Which by the way was a response to the appearance of the 105mm English gun about which you mentioned.
        1. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 31 July 2014 10: 16 New
          0
          "T-62 was created as a tank destroyer" ///

          This is an original point of view. But let me disagree with her.
          Tank fighter tank primarily involves a powerful frontal
          reservation Otherwise, before he begins to exterminate, he himself will perish.
          Classic tank destroyer: Abrams. Powerful frontal armor and
          weak sides.
          The T-60 has a very weak forehead. But, like all Soviet tanks,
          excellent suspension and engine. That is, he 1) a tank for the development of offensives (raids), 2) a good tank to support the infantry - a quick fire with land mines.
          and only 3) tank-to-tank battles from short distances (the use of OBPS is limited by the distance, as you know).
          1. Kassandra
            Kassandra 1 August 2014 20: 59 New
            +1
            in a cannon fighter of tanks a gun dominates over armor and nothing more.
            German in World War II in the old T1, T2, T3 stuffed a stronger gun - so they appeared, then he began to do the same with the advent of the Tigers and Panthers of the USSR (St. John's Wort). in the UK - Archer (with a gun turned back to make it easier to drape). fighter self-propelled guns are distinguished from assault guns and tanks by an anti-tank gun and a lower profile - as your entom Egyptian abrams does not fit into this scheme at all.
            the first MBT in the USSR was T-64, the cannon was strengthened in T-62, and in addition to the "tank destroyers" there was still a heavy T-10, the T-72 had already caught up with it almost in weight. but nonetheless.
          2. Kassandra
            Kassandra 2 August 2014 13: 29 New
            0
            Well, think about it, will your Fashington friends sell some normal tank to Egypt? from which, besides, it’s very problematic to get out of a mechanical drive ... In which case ... The leopard is not sold ...
            especially as humanitarian aid and not for loot, because under the Camp David accords, aid to Egypt should be 50% of the US provided to Israel
            nobody takes abrams for money at all, why would anyone need such an original American tank with English armor and a German cannon (with extra charge)?
            almost all in the world of tanks buy only Soviet or German.
  • Aristocrat
    Aristocrat 31 July 2014 13: 03 New
    0
    Quote: voyaka uh

    This is an original point of view. But let me disagree with her.
    Tank fighter tank primarily involves a powerful frontal
    reservation Otherwise, before he begins to exterminate, he himself will perish.
    Classic tank destroyer: Abrams. Powerful frontal armor and
    weak sides.


    I learned about this original point of view from the dock. the film "Armor of Russia" series 6 from 33 minutes. He began to study tanks bit by bit collecting information from popular science magazines, encyclopedias and from the words of people who had at least some access to information in the early eighties. And I have not heard that the T-62nd had a pronounced anti-tank "orientation".

    Abrams is an MBT and not a tank destroyer. Now there are no medium or heavy tanks. Not one fighter.
    The best post-war "tank hunters" were self-propelled guns SU-122 and the French "Foch". However, it soon became clear that modern tanks do an excellent job with this function. Therefore, we now do not observe machines like Ferdinand, Yagdtigra, Yagdpanther, SU and ISU-152, Su-100, etc. on the battlefield.


    Quote: voyaka uh
    The T-60 has a very weak forehead. But, like all Soviet tanks,
    excellent suspension and engine. That is, he 1) a tank for the development of offensives (raids), 2) a good tank to support the infantry - a quick fire with land mines.
    and only 3) tank-to-tank battles from short distances (the use of OBPS is limited by the distance, as you know).


    No offense. But you often get confused. It's about the T-62 and not about the T-60.
    His forehead is “weak” for today. His time is long gone ...
    As for the chassis and the engine, it is debatable. Vryatli one of us boasts information about engine hours and other things, even one model of the tank. Not to mention the different models of different countries ...
    Maintainability and low cost, low operating costs have always been a distinctive feature of Soviet-Russian technology. But if we compare our and the "western" auto industry and draw analogies, the picture is not so rosy ...

    It is unclear what does "quick fire landmines" mean? How did he differ for example from the same 105mm Englishwoman? Given the same manual loading and, all the more, a larger caliber (115mm), I think the rate of fire was lower ...
    What about short distances? The smoothbore gun with a higher than the rifled initial velocity of the projectile. And a larger caliber than the overseas "vis-a-vis." 1,5 thousand meters is quite a working distance for this gun. In addition, in the ammunition kit there is also a KS distance to the target for which, as you know, is not important.
    1. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 31 July 2014 14: 55 New
      0
      "T-62 was created as a tank destroyer." ///

      Did you write this?
      Further: "I learned from the doc. Film" Armor of Russia "series 6 from 33 minutes"
      So the creators of the dock. the film "Armor of Russia" claim that
      T-62 is not MBT, but a tank destroyer? winked
      Then all claims are not against you, but against filmmakers, sorry.
      1. Aristocrat
        Aristocrat 31 July 2014 18: 31 New
        0
        You should have made claims to me :)
        Yes I.
        From the first time it was not clear?
        The first MBT in the USSR is the T-64.

        What about the rest? A quick fire with land mines, the use of feathered subcaliber shells at point blank range and a lot of other interesting things?
    2. Kassandra
      Kassandra 1 August 2014 14: 34 New
      -1
      if you want to compare the auto industry, then compare not the passenger cars but Kamaz, which will give odds to any western truck, and, interestingly, are made at the tank factory ..
      1. Aristocrat
        Aristocrat 2 August 2014 04: 37 New
        0
        Kamaz eats fuels and lubricants as much as scania, and at the same time carries three times less .... Requires repair immediately after purchase and before disposal. Verified. Buying a KAMAZ truck with an 11-meter semitrailer and manipulator paid for itself only because it (KAMAZ) was transporting oil equipment for fabulous money. And the rest tortured repair. One change of the block head after two or three (I do not remember exactly) months is worth what ... True, under warranty.
        As for the handicap, then you probably judge by the Kamaz-master team and Paris-Dakkar? I'll tell you a secret :) From KAMAZ there is only a cabin)))
        Although this is not a secret at all)))
        As for the tank factory, you surprised me so surprised))) I do not live far from this "tank" factory))) And my relatives work on it)))
        Of course we sometimes call our Kamaz tanks (tanks are not afraid of mud!), But much more often the "Tatar pig"))) Dirt flies from it !!! When in rainy weather you meet each other along the oncoming lane and God forbid you have to lag behind him!)))
        Sorry, but you are not up to date at all)))
        1. Kassandra
          Kassandra 2 August 2014 12: 39 New
          0
          no dear
          not only aristocrats drink champagne in the mornings ... not from KAMAZ in Dakarovsky only air conditioning, although Baku was also nothing

          everything except the cabin in MAN is now MAZ, and the engine under it if it is not for Europe

          why go broke is better google "KAMAZ in US and Canada"
          1. Aristocrat
            Aristocrat 3 August 2014 00: 15 New
            0
            Dear, but not yours! :) I don’t know whether to rejoice at this fact or be sad :)
            Ma'am! In the morning, aristocrats eat only oatmeal :)

            I don’t remember that I would go broke. Hold yourself in the hands of madame :) And the language too hi
            Vladimir Chagin said that the KAMAZ-Master team is looking for another engine in order to have an advantage over rivals. According to him, an American-made Cummins engine has already been tested at KAMAZ on one of the crews of the team as part of the Silk Way rally. “Unfortunately, the motor did not justify our hopes - fuel consumption is the same as that of the Yaroslavl motor, the smokiness is the same. So we do not plan to switch to this engine in the near future, ”he said. Vladimir Chagin said that they are testing another engine - Deutz.

            Under the cockpits of the fireballs - both racing and serial - there is a highly accelerated YaMZ "eight", which develops crazy power and torque - 730 hp. and 2700 Nm!

            By the way, they tried to put the Cummins engine on sports KAMAZ trucks - but the Americans do not force their motors to such power. In addition, the 17-liter Yaroslavets turned out to be slightly heavier than the 14-liter American, and the torque characteristic turned out to be successful. And due to the large displacement, the motor perfectly “pulls” the car at low speeds.

            Most of the remaining units are imported. The steering gear, power steering pump and 16-speed gearbox carry the ZF brand, the clutch is Sachs, the transfer case is Steyr. Only the design of the main Krazov gearboxes is true, with corresponding modifications. Tires carry the Michelin brand, wheels - aluminum; in addition, their design allows you to change the tire without removing the wheel from the hub.

            Why does KAMAZ-Master refuse Russian engines? It would seem that many years of success in international rally-raids should not push the leadership of the KAMAZ sports team to any drastic changes, but next year the Swiss heart will beat in the gut of Chelny racing trucks. Change of engines - an event for a sports team an event completely unusual. To understand this, it’s enough to turn to the history of Formula 1. It’s not even that the new engine is always a headache for the engineers of the team. Even choosing an engine similar in design and parameters, the team cannot be sure that it can show the previous results. Rally raids are a very special motorsport where the absolute power or weight of the engine is not so important. Much more important is reliability and maintainability. The long-term partner of the KAMAZ factory team was the Tutaevsky Motor Plant. It was with TMZ engines that KAMAZs achieved success in all corners of the planet. These motors are known to mechanics as the back of their hand. They were adapted to the specific requirements of the pilots, exclusive KAMAZ spare parts were specially developed for them, they proved their unprecedented reliability, but all the same, TMZ engines are forced to give their place on the hood of the most formidable KAMAZ to Swiss Liebherr engines. On the.

            Source: http://drivemir.ru/pochjemu-kamaz-mastjer-otkazyvajetsja-ot-rossijskikh-dvigatj


            I don’t understand why you decided to “enlighten” everyone about the Kamaz :) You don’t even know where they will be taken, and how ... Nobody expected the lady of knowledge in the technical subtleties of the automobile industry. But still, if you want to prove it for some kind of vegetable))) then enlighten me what is on most KAMAZ trucks? Injector or carburetor?)
            1. Kassandra
              Kassandra 3 August 2014 14: 36 New
              -1
              nothing else imported ... just these grandmother firms pay for advertising.
              and with an engine - you can’t swindle at all, so this “cummins” broke off (although it raised money too on advertising), and what’s going to happen with the Swiss, you’ll see it next year. bully
              by the way "why" - the last quote is not written.

              carburetor injector ... why are you asking? You are not one of those spyenes who in batches was removed in batches from the fence of the factory where they are produced?

              any injector vehicle in Dakar breaks down within 40 minutes to 6 hours, then KAMAZ arrives and puts next to it a new one in which the team transfers and that one takes.
              KAMAZ trucks have not been racing for a long time because they constantly won and the public lost interest in this rally.

              you are the same patriot as an aristocrat.
              1. Aristocrat
                Aristocrat 4 August 2014 01: 16 New
                -1
                You are very difficult to understand ...
                Advertising on the sides is not connected in any way with the content. For example, the inscription in Latin "Calcedony" cannot mean that pilots of a fireball pulled lace stockings on their legs :)

                For the carburetor. Well, firstly, Ma'am, we are not in close relations with you, but according to this etiquette, "You" is prescribed :)
                And you must be the keeper of the secrets of the Kama auto giant? And do not tell the buyer even the injector or the carburetor is standing under the hood? Sorry under the cab :) (Clever masculine sex, please do not interfere in the conversation !!!)
                From the "fence" they removed only the "badass" that they took "in kind" that was not given up to their salary :) Although most of the thefts both on Kamaz and elsewhere occur through the "passage" from the department and the participation of individual representatives of the leadership, security and production workers :)
                Why do I ask? Because you definitely do not understand why you decided to make yourself a specialist in the production of trucks at the "tank factories"?)))) By the way, for reference, KAMAZ is the Kama AUTOMOBILE factory :)))

                I don’t know where you got the statistics of breakdowns in the rally from. But under the terms of the rally, a failed car can only be repaired. If someone is not repairable, he leaves the competition :)

                Svmi KaMazy are still racing. Why did you decide that someone cares about someone's fatigue? Kamaz Master is involved in almost a dozen different Rally. Of course you know better than them :)
                Here is a telephone for you. Explain to them how to live correctly:
                Address: 423808, Republic of Tatarstan, Naberezhnye Chelny, Avtozavodsky Avenue, 2, Building of the Directorate of KAMAZ OJSC

                Phone number: +7 (8552) 37-26-00

                Fax: + 7 (8552) 37-26-76

                And then the men do not know :)

                What is your concept of "Patriot"?
                And how did you determine that I wasn’t him?) Kamaz is a master in my twin roads. This is not only the Russian team, but also the Tatarstan team in which I was born and live :)

                From my quotes you should have seen:
                1. The engine on a sports car in different years could be different. From Russian to American or Swiss.
                2. Almost all spare parts are imported.
                3. Parts of our own production EXCLUSIVE specially designed for this car.
                And the conclusion would have to be made that Kamaz should not be judged by a special machine assembled by a crowd of engineers from the best components, most of which are produced in all corners of the world.
                And you. A patriot is not a patriot. How does patriotism depend on knowledge under the nudity? Also known to everyone except you?
                Kamaz incidentally Oku produced quite a long time. I don’t think that you will change your Volkswagen (or whatever you have) to the Oka produced at the tank factory?

                So all the same? An injector or a carburetor? Or at least tell me the octane fuel? I can even offer options (92,95,98).
                1. Kassandra
                  Kassandra 5 August 2014 02: 43 New
                  0
                  if it’s hard for someone to understand, then this may be his problem ...
                  maybe you were born and raised in Tatarstan (as you can see from the behavior), boy, but have you ever been to Africa?
                  1. Aristocrat
                    Aristocrat 5 August 2014 11: 52 New
                    0
                    If you have difficulty speaking, then this is personally your problem. And do not make it a problem for others.
                    And what is wrong with Tatarstan? Maybe you confuse it with some kind of churkestan? Tatarstan is the heart of Russia. Well, of course, if you studied geography at school ...
                    All you crave for a close relationship. Didn’t you hear anything about “You”? And what other hints are you trying to give me? You are very, very far away from my not perfect upbringing ... And judging by the fact that I am a “boy” for you, close relations with me do not shine. To my regret, I was not a gerontophile :) I am young and beautiful to my liking :) And if at the same time they are smart, then to my heart.
                    So what is there with Africa?))) Have you seen it on the map?)))
                    You have not answered a bunch of questions. Apparently afraid of being an amateur in those matters where the gurus tried to look))) So in vain trying to say your words for you. You gave yourself away with giblets.
                    But as I have said more than once your motive is completely unpotent. Why should a lady have the title of chief specialist in armaments and the automotive industry? If you are a lady, of course ... Why do you say "Ivanovich" in a personal .... What kind of sex are you at all ???
                    PS: Why is your non-knowledge of the issue and the knowledge of that opponent is the basis for you to switch to “personality.” At the same time as your opponent did not allow yourself like that?
                    1. Kassandra
                      Kassandra 5 August 2014 12: 38 New
                      0
                      not a problem for others to be.
                      Judging about Afghanistan, judging by the dual theme, you are a boy, too, which is not very up to date.
                      1. Aristocrat
                        Aristocrat 6 August 2014 03: 47 New
                        0
                        So don’t be! After all, you are aware of this.
                        Thanks for the compliment! Although for men, age is not particularly relevant. More relevant intelligence.
                        Well, where are we going to miserable))) You are likely to do it yourself, sorry admirably "knead adobe" for these duvals))) In any case, you are hinting))) Then you should not call Kassandra Ivanovich, but Zukhra Ibrahimovic)))
                      2. Kassandra
                        Kassandra 6 August 2014 13: 02 New
                        0
                        do not knead it with your hands
                        Yes, nothing ... a lover of champagne and books, you did not understand - the BTR-2 appeared there precisely because the BTR-1 in most cases did not blow through.
                      3. Aristocrat
                        Aristocrat 18 September 2014 08: 38 New
                        0
                        Are you crazy again? Black and white says what and what is kneading ...
                        What other such APCs? It was about "penetrating" duvals with grenade launchers and now armored personnel carriers ??? Where is such weed sold? In Holland?
                      4. Kassandra
                        Kassandra 18 September 2014 10: 56 New
                        0
                        BMP, not armored personnel carrier
                        about breaking through his tower gun
                        in the case of smart people, only donkeys knead
                      5. Kassandra
                        Kassandra 18 September 2014 17: 05 New
                        0
                        PS. The armored personnel carrier / infantry fighting vehicle crossed over due to another topic discussed at that time, because the German Khanomag had armor similar to that of an infantry fighting vehicle (in general, it was a half-tracked infantry fighting vehicle — it acted in the same order as tanks).
  • anomalocaris
    anomalocaris 2 August 2014 08: 41 New
    +1
    And they are also made in carriages, tractors, and, in places, in metallurgical plants ... This is such a squiggle.
  • Aristocrat
    Aristocrat 31 July 2014 13: 23 New
    0
    In addition, what about the 2A45M Octopus self-propelled floating anti-tank gun? After all, her reservation will yield even to the average T-54? Will it cease to be anti-tank from this?
  • Aristocrat
    Aristocrat 1 August 2014 08: 47 New
    0
    Well, as always! ... How to answer for the words, so everyone ran up the bushes of the Sinai Peninsula ...
    1. voyaka uh
      voyaka uh 1 August 2014 15: 57 New
      0
      "Yes I."//
      "Still you" ///

      Talk with an opponent who writes “I” with a capital letter, and
      "you" - with a little ... but chose the nickname "Aristocrat"? Fire from
      such mercy ... lol
      1. Aristocrat
        Aristocrat 2 August 2014 04: 40 New
        +1
        Firing! Blubs is free to go on all four sides :) For at least 40 years you can wander through the deserts in search of new hosts.
        The Egyptians at one time succumbed to ancient grievances?))
        1. voyaka uh
          voyaka uh 2 August 2014 14: 44 New
          0
          Plus is from me. You honestly earned it by this post.
          You, too, are not very attracted to the pharaoh, to be honest ... As to the Aristocrat no
          1. Aristocrat
            Aristocrat 2 August 2014 18: 10 New
            -2
            And why did you decide that I would be throwing it to people like you?
            Caesar Cesarean. What you deserve is what you get and sign.
            I have no more in common with the pharaohs than with the current "Egyptians."
            Pharaohs are closer to the black race, the current Egyptians are the "peoples of the sea" who destroyed Egypt, the Arabs. Neither are relatives of Ariyam.
            1. voyaka uh
              voyaka uh 2 August 2014 21: 38 New
              0
              Sorry, I put you two "pluses" and so I can no longer.
              I won you a bottle of Shivas for an argument. The argument was that it is possible to reveal the hidden
              anti-Semite in just three posts (and on any topic).
              Thank you, I won’t tear you more away over black gold mining. I know,
              that oil is the basis of the Russian economy.
              Come to us in Israel. Relax by the sea. We are glad to all tourists, including Aryans. hi
              1. Kassandra
                Kassandra 2 August 2014 21: 50 New
                -1
                oil is the backbone of the Saudi economy ...
              2. Aristocrat
                Aristocrat 3 August 2014 00: 34 New
                0
                In fact, to put it mildly, I doubt that I won at least a shekel :)
                Yes, and you had to argue with a person with about the same level of i-Q as yours))) If you are not in the know, I am not familiar with any Jew. And therefore, I treat the Jews the same way as the Danes, Canadians, Papuans and inhabitants of the Camorian islands. For I am not familiar with any of them)))
                And I have the same attitude to earhooks, no matter what nationality they belong to. And among the Russians they are not few. And I’m spreading them no less than you :) And yelling about anti-Semitism is just your reaction. Self-deception. For it is more pleasant to feel that you are treated somehow especially because of your nationality (nothing special different from the same Lebanese, for example, or Saudis, etc.) than to realize how things are in this way.

                Thanks for work! I’ve driven a well into the circle. So I can spend more time on forums.
                Thanks also for the invitation. But I prefer all types of recreation rafting and horseback riding along the polar and southern Urals and Altai.
                1. voyaka uh
                  voyaka uh 3 August 2014 11: 37 New
                  -1
                  "And rotting them no less than you :)" ///

                  Ah, you "rotten" me, it turns out? I do not understand because of the bad
                  knowledge of your folklore. That BMP-1 could destroy 9 NATO tanks -
                  did this also refer to the "spreading" of the opponent? - then the situation cleared up ...
                  And the "ear-hook" is, apparently, such a common Siberian slang (like, "sucker"?),
                  or some internal term in the Aryan Aristocrats?
                  1. Aristocrat
                    Aristocrat 4 August 2014 00: 28 New
                    0
                    Have you been so accustomed to such an attitude from school years that you don’t notice at all? Are you used to it?
                    9 tanks-distort. Or, as always, you do not understand the essence.
                    Alas, the Siberian “slang” is not familiar to me, or fortunately. I live in Tatarstan. Can I indulge in Tatar?
            2. Kassandra
              Kassandra 2 August 2014 21: 49 New
              +1
              Do not trust the Nanai bringing gifts ..
    2. Kassandra
      Kassandra 1 August 2014 20: 50 New
      +1
      what sky is blue ...
      they have specific concepts about armored vehicles - there are no forests, fields, meadows and rivers ...
      mountains really are
  • Aristocrat
    Aristocrat 2 August 2014 05: 10 New
    +1
    Quote: Aristocrat
    Firing! Free blubs

    Oops! Olepyatka! Of course, "plebs")))
    It is difficult for Israel to spread rot with its left hand when you draw the path of the well to black gold with your right.
  • Bobik012
    Bobik012 17 October 2017 10: 44 New
    0
    And here's what I liked about the text; "There is an error-free trend" In fact, Nostradamus :-) ERROR-FREE !!!
  • Serhi
    Serhi 22 November 2017 10: 03 New
    0
    To be precise, the author was slightly mistaken, a 3A2 gun with a long barrel was installed on the BMP-72, as well as on the BTR_82A, BMD-4M modules.