Military Review

Tank Leopard 2A7 +

227
This tank was first shown at the Eurosatory 2010 exhibition of the year by the German company Krauss-Maffei Wegmann (KMW).


Tank Leopard 2A7 +


The updated tank is optimized for use both in conventional combat operations and for operations in the conditions of the city.

The Leopard 2А7 + is an upgrade of the Leopard 2A6, armed with an 120-mm smoothbore Rheinmetall cannon with a barrel length 55 caliber. It is also possible to upgrade the Leopard 2A4 / Leopard 2A5 version with a short 120-mm gun (barrel length 44 caliber) to the latest standard Leopard 2А7 +.

KMW at the exhibition announced that the Leopard 2A7 + is a modular update package that can be optimized to meet the specific needs of users. The version shown on Eurosatory is the top level of the Leopard 2A7 +, which uses all the modernization options, resulting in a combat weight tank is about 67 tons.



The upgrade package includes installation on the roof of the turret of the combat module with a remote control KMW FLW 200 with a machine gun of the 12,7 caliber mm, as well as an 76-mm grenade launcher. To increase survivability (especially from RPGs), additional passive armor was installed along the frontal arc, as well as along the sides of the hull and tower. Together with the main modifications of the changes in the hull and the tower, an additional reservation is placed on the bottom of the hull. Situational awareness is provided through a full review of 360 degrees for all crew members - the commander, gunner and driver, through improved thermal imaging cameras.

To improve the living conditions at high temperatures in the aft tower installed air conditioning system. To provide power for the onboard equipment, an auxiliary power unit of increased power was installed in the right rear of the hull. In the back of the case is equipped with a place to connect infantry phones. If necessary, the tank can be equipped with a blade.

The Leopard 2A7 + upgrade package, together with the extended reservation package, was developed and tested in close collaboration with the German army, which is expected to update at least part of its fleet of 225 Leopard 2A6 and 125 Leopard 2A5 to this standard after resolving the issue of financing. Some sources mention about 150 modernization plans in total. Other members of the Leopard 2 club have also shown interest in the new product.



"... Much more interesting is the second project of German tank builders, positioned as a revolution in the modernization of the OBT. Demonstrated at the Paris salon MBT Revolution was a deeply modernized Leopard 2A4. The main directions of improvements designed to turn the 1985-1992 produced in the modern tank, able to withstand virtually all existing challenges, the following:

- a dramatic improvement in protection, overhead elements covering the entire turret and frontal part of the hull, as well as two-thirds of the side (i.e., fighting compartment) should protect the tank from shots of all types of grenade launchers and above all RPG-7, from mines, improvised land mines, striking elements cluster munitions, OBPS, anti-tank missiles with optical-electronic, infrared and laser guidance systems;

- implementation of the “digital turret” technology, that is, the introduction of modern display tools, network solutions and components into the LMS, allowing tracking of the movement of their troops and enemy forces in real time, all-day observation and aiming devices, providing the crew with an almost all-around view from armor: all this will allow tankmen to reduce the response time to a particular threat;

- improving the characteristics of the SLA, so that the tank could hit targets with the very first shot, especially in motion;

- the introduction of a “commander” brake into the design of the machine, which allows the senior crew member to stop the tank from his workplace if necessary: ​​this function is positioned as very useful when moving a multi-ton mastodon through the city streets, largely depriving him of the well-known awkwardness of the elephant a china shop;



- introduction to the tank ammunition modern shells;

- equipping the machine with a modern, stabilized, remotely controlled combat module of auxiliary armament;

- the use of a communications system that allows the crew to exchange information with the surrounding infantry;

- introduction into the design of an auxiliary power unit, which supplies electricity to numerous electronic systems without the need to turn on the main engine: this not only saves the service life, but also reduces the thermal and acoustic visibility of the machine;

- installation of equipment designed to incorporate each main battle tank into a single automated rear support system: this greatly simplifies and speeds up the process of providing tank units with ammunition, fuel and other rear assets.

The set of proposed changes is more interesting than in the case of Leopard 2A7 +. True, it is impossible not to note two features that can be viewed as flaws: obviously, the high cost of alterations and a significant increase in the mass of the tank, getting out of the limits of sixty tons. That is why you should consider the individual elements of the modernization program MBT Revolution in more detail.



One of the most important factors in enhancing the security of a machine is the ROSY smoke screen system developed by Rheinmetall. It not only forms a multispectral smoke cloud on the detected radiation direction in less than 0,6 seconds, but also forms a dynamic smoke “wall” allowing the tank to quickly evade defeat in the event of a massive approach of anti-tank missiles.

The onboard equipment of the tank includes an optoelectronic detection system stabilized in two planes. It consists of a thermal imager, day camera and laser range finder. Necessary to the commander and the gunner to assess the situation data - the goal, the distance to it, the type of ammunition, the state of the system itself - are displayed on the display in the fighting compartment. On it can be displayed as a circular panorama of the battlefield, and its fragment, visible through a normal sight.

Constant circular surveillance of the battlefield, reducing the burden on the commander and gunner, is provided by the information system (SAS). Its functions include the automatic detection and tracking of potential targets. SAS consists of four optical modules (although to reduce the price of a modification, only two of them are allowed) at the corners of the tower, each of which has three lenses with an angle of view of 60 degrees, as well as a high-resolution color camera and night vision components. To reduce the crew’s response time to a threat, information about the SAS target detected can be immediately transmitted to the SLA, primarily to the new-generation Qimek remote combat module located on the roof of the tower.



The composition of the ammunition upgraded tank is proposed to include new types of ammunition. In addition to the DM 11 high-explosive fragmentation projectile already mentioned, this is a feathered sub-caliber projectile with a separating pallet DM-53 (LKE II) 570 mm long, equipped with a tungsten alloy core (adopted for 1997), its modification DM-531 and further development DM 63. The last two munitions are positioned as the first in the world ITS, maintaining constant ballistic characteristics regardless of the ambient temperature. According to the developer, shells are optimized specifically for punching "dual" reactive armor and can hit all types of modern tanks head on. These armor-piercing ammunition can be fired from 120-mm smooth-bore guns made by Rheinmetall with a barrel length of both 44 and 55 calibers.



The onboard equipment complex is integrated into the INIOCHOS ACS of the tactical level, developed by the same Rheinmetall company and allowing to distribute information from the brigade commander to a separate soldier or combat vehicle. This system is used in the armed forces of Greece, Spain, Sweden and Hungary. All of them, with the exception of the sun last, have in their arsenals and various modifications of the Leopard 2.
Thus, the modernization of the tank, carried out under the MBT Revolution project, makes it possible to transform an armored monster, the creation ideology of which provided for conducting tank battles in the image and likeness of the battles of World War II, into a modern machine equally well prepared for both battles with enemy tanks and guerrilla formations possessing only mobile anti-tank weapons. The latest developments in the field of electronics, optics, communications give the crew, instead of very limited in angle of view and range, fragmentary “pictures” in periscopes and sights, a complete panorama of the surrounding space, reflecting the enemy’s location and maneuvers of his unit. The concept of a digital tower actually helps the crew to look through the armor. But it is precisely this property that is one of the most important when creating a new generation tank with an uninhabited turret and armored capsule for the crew, which was conceived by the domestic T-95. "



Characteristics

Weight, kg 67500
Length, mm 10970
Width, mm 4000
Height, mm 2640
Engine power, hp Xnumx
Maximum speed on the highway, km / h 72
Cruising on highway, km 450
Caliber of the main gun, mm 120
Barrel Length, 55 Caliber


227 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must to register.

I have an account? Sign in

  1. svp67
    svp67 31 August 2013 08: 38
    22
    The updated tank is optimized for use both in conventional combat operations and for operations in the conditions of the city.
    Yes, a serious car, but 67 tons !!! How does his earth wear it? belay
    1. Orel
      Orel 31 August 2013 09: 31
      +6
      We will wait for "Armata". I hope it turns out to be a good car, not worse than Leo, and maybe even better)
      1. Sirs
        Sirs 2 September 2013 08: 36
        -5
        Armata will be worse - that's for sure.
        1. olosors
          olosors 19 February 2015 10: 26
          -3
          when the armature comes out the German will have another "Wunder waffe" and again the best
          1. Anton Valerevich
            Anton Valerevich 25 March 2018 07: 17
            0
            ... weighing 167 tons! There is experience. wink
          2. Andron59
            Andron59 9 July 2019 15: 16
            0
            So what did the Germans come up with over the past 4 years? Ah, yes, the Kurds have lent their vaunted Leopards to Soviet ATGMs. ))))
        2. Andron59
          Andron59 9 July 2019 15: 14
          0
          . But where does the confidence that Armata is worse come from, does Putin personally share his knowledge with you or designers? Or is even a foreign one better than your own?
    2. Zhenya
      Zhenya 31 August 2013 14: 01
      18
      67 tons, but the speed is 72 km \ h, but the Germans always knew how to build tanks.
      1. mertvoe_exo
        mertvoe_exo 31 August 2013 14: 16
        0
        yeah knew how))) but ours are better. BOB proof of this)) although if I honestly admire German tanks))
        1. Zhenya
          Zhenya 31 August 2013 16: 05
          11
          mertvoe_exo Unfortunately, I don’t remember the mentions where Is shot several 10s of PZ4, but there were cases of KV, but against them were light tanks and it was difficult to compare them of course. But 1 tank Tiger could burn 10 ok tanks and there is a lot of evidence for that. I do not belittle the merits of our grandfathers, I only emphasize that it was damn difficult for them to fight against Germany with such tanks.
          1. duke
            duke 31 August 2013 16: 40
            +6
            you are probably talking about the Kursk arch, when a t-34 with an old 76-mm cannon could hit new tigers from a distance of only 500 m, and they could shoot our 34s with 1,5 km with impunity, thanks to a powerful 88mm cannon and excellent optics, in addition, all tanks were equipped with good walkie-talkies, so that the controllability of the troops was at the level ...
            1. Zhenya
              Zhenya 31 August 2013 19: 38
              +4
              Oh no dear duke , I'm talking about the western front, where the Tigers burned 15 Shermans each, the eastern front is a very long debate.
              1. vladkavkaz
                vladkavkaz 1 September 2013 11: 28
                +4
                Zhenya.
                Here is an opinion from our own resource what IP really is, in confrontation with the Tiger.http: //topwar.ru/1952-is-protiv-tigra.html
                Is it then worth telling a fairy tale that T3, T4, to some extent, were there against ISa?
                No wonder the Panzerwaffe, for its tankers in the form of instructions for combating IP, issued a recommendation in the form of an order, not to engage in a direct clash with IP, only from ambushes?
                1. David Semenenko
                  David Semenenko 24 June 2019 22: 38
                  0
                  Tiger N1 was developed in 1941, and operated in 1942, the IS1 was developed in 1943 and was operated the same year. What do you just compare? If and compare IP 1. it’s only with tiger 2 from the Porsche! I’m also a wise guy damn.
                2. David Semenenko
                  David Semenenko 24 June 2019 22: 41
                  0
                  The most fun
                  e. if we compare is 2 with tiger 2 from Henschel, then it turns out that the gun is 88 mlm. flings more than a cannon is 2 122 mlm. Oru ...
              2. nerd.su
                nerd.su 1 September 2013 15: 21
                +2
                Quote: Marrying
                I do not belittle the merits of our grandfathers, I only emphasize that it was damn difficult for them to fight against Germany with such tanks

                Quote: Marrying
                I'm talking about the western front, where the Tigers burned 15 Shermans each

                Did your grandfathers fight on the Western Front? How did you get to us? what
                1. Zhenya
                  Zhenya 1 September 2013 15: 28
                  +3
                  nerd.su Ams, you pulled out words from two different sentences, they have different meanings.
                  1. My great-grandfather fought near Voronezh, another great-grandfather fought in Finnish, from where he never returned.
                  2. They tried to tell me that the tigers burned our T-34 \ 75 on the Kursk Bulge, yes it was, but the real "heroicide" of the Tigers was against the Shermans, and I gave an example.
                  Sincerely.
                  1. nerd.su
                    nerd.su 1 September 2013 17: 36
                    0
                    What is Ams?
                    Quote: Marrying
                    You pulled out words from two different sentences, they have different meanings.

                    Yes, hardly. In the first statement you say
                    Quote: Marrying
                    But 1 tank Tiger could burn 10 ok tanks and there is a lot of evidence for that. I do not belittle the merits of our grandfathers, I only emphasize that it was damn difficult for them to fight against Germany with such tanks.

                    and on the remark about the Kursk Bulge
                    Quote: Marrying
                    I'm talking about the western front, where the Tigers burned 15 Shermans each
                    . That is, it turns out that despite the fact that the tigers on the western front burned 15 Shermans each, your grandfathers, etc. But I understood what you mean, this is simply an ambiguity in the wording. It feels like Russian isn’t native to you ... By the way, what kind of example of genocide against Shermans? I didn’t understand something.
                    1. Zhenya
                      Zhenya 1 September 2013 17: 50
                      +1
                      nerd.suThe genocide was in quotes, I mean the Tigers dominated the Sherman, a lot of evidence when the Tiger rode out on 3-4 Sherman and methodically shot them, without fear of being hit.
                      In general, I like your conclusions, that it is not a conclusion that is wrong. Bloopers in my text, of course, are like everyone else's, because sometimes there are a lot of thoughts and you want to "stuff" it into short 3-4 lines, and that is an embarrassment.
                      ps
                      Someone says aaaa, mmmmm, and I say ams.
                      1. Kars
                        Kars 1 September 2013 18: 15
                        +2
                        Quote: Marrying
                        Tigers dominated the Shermans,

                        Wow, what a revelation - Sherman is a medium tank and the Tiger is heavy. The same thing happened against the T-34-76 / 85 and against Cromwell
                        Quote: Marrying
                        without fear of being hit.

                        but it’s vryatli, the danger was all-over, rubbing the caterpillar could well end in the scrap metal cemetery.
                      2. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 1 September 2013 18: 23
                        +4
                        An American tanker near the Sherman tank. Bags of cement were laid on the frontal armor, and all this was covered with concrete to fix it.
                      3. Zhenya
                        Zhenya 1 September 2013 20: 28
                        0
                        Kars, what could the Allies put on the same scale against the tigers ?? Churchill? The allies had the main tank Cronwell and Sherman, so I judge it precisely so that the tiger is against Sherman or Cronwell and nothing else.
                      4. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 1 September 2013 20: 35
                        +1
                        M 26 Pershing ............
                      5. Zhenya
                        Zhenya 1 September 2013 20: 36
                        +1
                        Alex 241 but he was not the main battle tank of the Allies
                        "Pershing", appeared on the battlefields only in February 1945
                      6. Alex 241
                        Alex 241 1 September 2013 20: 47
                        0
                        Eugene, here you are right, if it were not for fuss, and departmental procrastination, this tank entered service earlier.
                    2. Alex 241
                      Alex 241 1 September 2013 20: 45
                      0
                      Pershing vs. Panther
                  2. Kars
                    Kars 1 September 2013 20: 57
                    +1
                    Quote: Marrying
                    Kars, what could the Allies put on the same scale against the tigers?

                    Why put something?
                    Quote: Marrying
                    the main tank of allies was Cronwell and Sherman, and therefore I judge it precisely so that the tiger is against Sherman or Cronwell and nothing else.

                    Yes, but the Tiger wasn’t the main one among the Germans, therefore .. like any other ..
                  3. Allegedly
                    Allegedly 1 September 2013 23: 20
                    0
                    Cromwell (Cromwell), so it is more correctly written. Tank g * apparently, as indeed all English weapons. Suitable only against unarmed Papuans.
                  4. Maverick78
                    Maverick78 1 September 2013 23: 26
                    -1
                    And in HERE - one of the best tanks of the 6th level)))
                  5. Allegedly
                    Allegedly 3 September 2013 01: 45
                    0
                    Quote: JACOB
                    And in HERE - one of the best tanks of the 6th level)))


                    From shkoloty and did not expect another answer sad
                  6. Allegedly
                    Allegedly 3 September 2013 01: 47
                    0
                    Quote: Maverick78
                    And in HERE - one of the best tanks of the 6th level)))



                    From shkoloty and did not expect another answer sad
                2. Alex 241
                  Alex 241 1 September 2013 23: 38
                  0
                  And what kind of growths on the tower?
            2. olosors
              olosors 19 February 2015 10: 35
              0
              if the main tank on the western front is a tiger and a panther and the Americans and the Britons are Sherman then the comparison is imposed here by itself
          2. nerd.su
            nerd.su 1 September 2013 19: 43
            +1
            Quote: Marrying
            a lot of evidence when the Tiger rode out on 3-4 Sherman and methodically shot them, without fear of being hit.

            I believe, but give at least one example.
            It is correct to write "what nи conclusion, then erroneous ";"вsekh "is written with a small letter. This gives the impression that Russian is not native.
            But everyone is embarrassed, I agree.
          3. Kars
            Kars 1 September 2013 19: 55
            +2
            Quote: bot.su
            I believe, but give at least one example.

            Why do you need it if you believe?
          4. nerd.su
            nerd.su 1 September 2013 22: 09
            0
            I wonder how many Germans had such heroes? What metal was enough for us to reach Berlin?
          5. Kars
            Kars 1 September 2013 22: 22
            +1
            Quote: bot.su
            I wonder how many Germans had such heroes? What metal was enough for us to reach Berlin?

            Of course, there is a lot to believe in 100%, neither the Germans, nor the allies, nor the Allies - after all, war.
            As for the metal - the 95 000 tanks were irretrievably lost on the way to Berlin, this is not counting damaged / damaged. In the observable figures, 75 percent of the produced / received was lost.

            A list--
            http://tankfront.ru/snipers/de-snipers.html
        2. Eugene
          Eugene 1 September 2013 23: 28
          0
          Something is not right here .. By that time, the guys knew how to fight ..
      2. Kars
        Kars 1 September 2013 19: 58
        +3
        ___________
        Frontline Illustration 2 2006 Tank Aces
      3. Zhenya
        Zhenya 1 September 2013 20: 17
        +1
        Kars, thanks!
        Broadened my horizons of the German tank aces.
      4. Alex 241
        Alex 241 1 September 2013 20: 21
        +1
        Here is the link, interesting material. Http://altfast.ru/1000016537-luchshie-asy-tankisty-sssr-i-germanii-2.ht
        ml
      5. The comment was deleted.
    3. Witold
      Witold 1 September 2013 23: 46
      0
      There was another best one. Michael Whitman. Michael Wittmann tiger tank battles at kursk german WW2 ss tank ace
      [media = http: // http: //www.youtube.com/watch? v = YWKfpOtFtBc & feature = player_detailpa
      ge]
    4. Witold
      Witold 1 September 2013 23: 48
      0
      [img] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWKfpOtFtBc&feature=player_detailpage#t=43 [/
      img]
  2. Zhenya
    Zhenya 1 September 2013 20: 24
    0
    nerd.su Leave your strange conclusions already! Bravo, you know Russian better than me, write better .... what else? You are smarter! I had 4 in my school / institute in Russian, so I'm not perfect .... and there are no ideal people either.
    On the topic "pouring water", want to talk about spelling? I'm afraid the wrong site.
  3. nerd.su
    nerd.su 2 September 2013 00: 17
    +3
    At Institute 4 in Russian? Are you a philologist?
    Yes, what kind of water? At the beginning of the war, more advanced HF felled German and Czech light tanks. And with dozens of action, too.
    At the end of the war, new, more advanced German tanks had some advantage over our T-34s. And, acting from ambushes, they could also bring them down by dozens. That's just ours were able to establish a mass production, but the Germans, fortunately, could not, the system is not the same.
    Well and an indicator - Germans were actually forbidden to engage in open battle with the IS-2. And acting from an ambush, they had an advantage. Our attack from the ambush was extremely inconvenient, and that was the loss. Like the Germans in 41. That's all there is to say on the topic. Yes, German tanks are good, but they lost technologically. And moral.
  • vaddag1
    vaddag1 1 September 2013 10: 28
    +2
    but I remember a story at school, where one light tank (a picture from the memory of t-70) destroyed several medium (i.e. t-3 or t-4 because there were no others) maneuvering between them. and photographs of a 70 square dent captured by the Germans, which one hell knows how many threshed the T-3 and T-4. and it’s the same as comparing a tiger with 88 on the defensive and a t-34 with 76 on the offensive.
    Do you know why you "Unfortunately, I do not remember the mentions where Is shot several 10 pz4"? because the IS were advancing and the T-4s were defending themselves, with all the consequences (ambush, entrenching, support of their own, etc.), such a period already in the war was when situations with rushing T-4s did not occur.
    ps German tanks are good against anyone, but not against Russians - 18 Panfilov proved
    1. Zhenya
      Zhenya 1 September 2013 11: 10
      0
      vaddag1 Dear, if you didn’t know for a long time it was proved that there weren’t 18 Panfilov’s, there were 2 companies, since the German troops stood near Moscow, did you have to somehow cheer up your soldiers? So this story appeared, really proven, double-checked. Again, I do not belittle the heroism of Russian soldiers, we are heroes, we saved the world, BUT the mention of 18 Panfilov’s is not correct. I'm not sure that the t-70 could knock out the t4, since its gun did not allow it, the t3 could be. Isa could not knock out by definition, the Wehrmacht war machine was broken, and Isa appeared only at the end of the war. This is a very long debate, very.
      1. vladkavkaz
        vladkavkaz 1 September 2013 11: 16
        +2
        Do not belittle the feat of the Panfilov’s division soldiers by repeating liberal ravings. The T70 armed with a 45 mm cannon could well incite the T3 and T4 under appropriate conditions, do not forget what role the LT had in general.
        IS, a tank with which Wehrmacht tankers were generally forbidden to engage in open combat, only from ambushes.
        A hit from the IS, guaranteed to break and kill any Wehrmacht tank up to T5.a on board from T5 and above.
        1. Zhenya
          Zhenya 1 September 2013 15: 07
          0
          vladkavkaz
          1. Once again I tell you, there was no feat - it was a collective myth for raising morale at a critical moment for the country. (There were 2 companies on this site, not 28 people)
          2. The T-70 unfortunately doesn’t have a lot of chances to hit the T-4, the reason is the barrel length is very small, which means that the penetration force at a great distance is again not enough to break through the armor, but the T-4 is enough to get into the T-70 to stop and his range for defeating the t-70 is much higher.
          3. I agree that it was forbidden to enter the open battle with the Isami, since its 122 mm cannon quite confidently hit all existing tanks. True, our command did not always correctly manage them and send them to the city without infantry cover, which was fatal for the Ises.
          1. vladkavkaz
            vladkavkaz 1 September 2013 20: 21
            0
            Hmm ... there was no feat, and who then stopped the tanks there? Martians? To raise morale, call me the army of the world, where morale rises differently. Even if you assume a liberal point of view that supposedly, Soviet soldiers, they didn’t accomplish feats. Only that of which they ended up in Berlin. Think when you write such things.
            The length of the barrel of a T70 tank gun, but what does it not like?
            The same as on other types, T26, BT5,7, which did not prevent them from using T3 for proper use, and, if necessary, T4.
            The main gun of the PTO-45-ka, up to 42 years old, managed? And what prevented the T70?
            Didn’t you reach the fact that the tank wasn’t created to fight the tank? The T40, T60 were armed with 20mm ShVAK at first, don’t know why?
            And apparently, because of this, you admire the exploits of the German tankmen sitting on the defensive, firing from a place, at tanks attacking, where the observation conditions and correspondingly effective fire are many times worse than those buried in the Tiger tower?
            LT, in the first period of the war, the ersatz, designed to replace the ST and TT, expended for obvious reasons, during the war, the level of supply of troops, from the age of 42 began to shift steadily towards the ST and TT, to the detriment of LT, it is not clear to you
            Why?
          2. ramsi
            ramsi 1 September 2013 21: 12
            +1
            Quote: Marrying
            vladkavkaz
            Unfortunately, the T-70 doesn’t have a lot of chances to hit the T-4, the reason is the barrel length is very small, which means that the penetration force at a great distance is too small to break through the armor, but the T-4 is enough to get into the T-70 to stop it and his range for the destruction of the t-70 is much higher.

            the barrel length of the T70 cannon - 46 caliber (45mm), the "normal" T4 - 43-48 caliber (75mm) ... however, it is guaranteed to hit the side and stern (30-20mm) with half a thousand
          3. ksan
            ksan 1 September 2013 21: 18
            +1
            Zhenya RU Today, 15:07 ↑

            vladkavkaz
            1. Once again I tell you, there was no feat - it was a collective myth for raising morale at a critical moment for the country. (There were 2 companies on this site, not 28 people)
            How was it !? So Panfilov’s were a feat !? German tanks stopped !? Have stopped. So the heroes!
            1. Lopatov
              Lopatov 1 September 2013 21: 30
              +1
              Quote: ksan
              How was it !? So Panfilov’s were a feat !?

              Panfilov’s was a whole division. And there was a feat. The whole division. And she became a guard.
      2. vaddag1
        vaddag1 1 September 2013 12: 15
        +1
        I do not closely follow the various "revelations" of Soviet myths and, in order not to develop this direction in the discussion, I will cite as an example a man who proved that against the Russian German tanks shit - Nikolai Vladimirovich Sirotinin, senior sergeant of artillery. Covering the retreat of his regiment, in one battle he alone destroyed 11 tanks, 7 armored vehicles, 57 enemy soldiers and officers.
        "The Isas could not be knocked out by definition, the Wehrmacht's military machine was broken, and the Isas appeared only at the end of the war" - your answer to yours "Unfortunately, I do not remember the mentions where Isa shot several 10 pz4s."
        and yet the t-70s pierced the t-4 perfectly, for the thickness of the side for them throughout the war has not changed
        1. Zhenya
          Zhenya 1 September 2013 15: 19
          +4
          vaddag1
          A lot of examples of the heroism of our soldiers, who shocked the Germans and their command.
          1. ksan
            ksan 1 September 2013 21: 10
            +1
            Zhenya RU Today, 15:19 ↑

            vaddag1
            A lot of examples of the heroism of our soldiers, who shocked the Germans and their command.
            Thank you for the film. A good reminder of who our grandfathers and great-grandfathers were. GLORY TO HEROES AND ETERNAL MEMORY !!
      3. Aleks tv
        Aleks tv 1 September 2013 14: 29
        +9
        Quote: Marrying
        it has long been proven that there were no 18 Panfilov’s,

        Already twitched ...
        Eugene,
        - if we talk about the LEGEND, then there were 28.
        - if we talk about HISTORY - then the whole 4 company of HEROES, like all the battalions and regiments of the Panfilov division.

        "Panfilov's 28" were in every platoon of this division.

        Now, when mentioning their feat, the first thing they say is "there was not" ... it would be better if the first phrase was "there were more of them."
        Eheh.
        1. Alex 241
          Alex 241 1 September 2013 15: 07
          +4
          On July 3, 1941, a T-28 tank raided occupied Minsk. The crew included cadets of the school, a senior sergeant with long service and one officer with the rank of major. In the course of movement, this random crew repeatedly entered into battle, destroyed an enemy convoy, a large number of manpower and armored vehicles. On the outskirts of Minsk, the tank was hit. Two died immediately. The fate of the others was different. Witnesses of this raid were residents of the occupied city. After the war, they restored this story ..
          1. Alex 241
            Alex 241 1 September 2013 15: 12
            +2
            On the night of June 30, 1944, Pavel Rak's tank platoon was tasked with breaking into the city of Borisov, occupied by German troops, engaging in battle and fighting until the main corps forces arrived. Of the four tanks, only the T-34 crew consisting of tank commander Pavel Rak, tank driver Aleksandr Petryaev and tank gunner Alexei Danilov was able to break through the Berezina River to the city of Borisov, Minsk Region, over a mined bridge. The second and third tanks of senior lieutenant Kuznetsov and lieutenant Yunaev were burned before approaching the bridge, and the fourth tank of captain Selin jumped over the bridge to the opposite bank of the river, but was hit and caught fire, the crew died. Then the Germans blew up the bridge across the Berezina
            For 16 hours, the crew fought on the streets of the city. They destroyed a lot of enemy manpower and equipment, which contributed to the liberation of the city on July 1 by Soviet troops. German troops threw several tanks and self-propelled guns against the crew. In an unequal battle, the soldiers died.
            The title of Hero of the Soviet Union was posthumously awarded March 24, 1945. The crew members A. A. Petryaev and A. I. Danilov were also awarded this title.
          2. Aleks tv
            Aleks tv 1 September 2013 15: 25
            +1
            Quote: Alex 241
            1941 of the year in occupied Minsk raided the T-28 tank.

            Greetings, Sasha.

            Thank you for the video.
            The book Malko (mehan T-28) was reading as a teenager (it is on the internet).
            Awesome feat. They thought not of their own salvation, but of the battle.

            Even then I thought about what a competent, professional crew means with the right tactics ...
            1. Alex 241
              Alex 241 1 September 2013 15: 32
              +1
              Hi Lesh, here is the correct reading, re-read countless times.
              1. Aleks tv
                Aleks tv 1 September 2013 16: 33
                0
                Quote: Alex 241
                here is the correct reading, re-read countless times.

                Rummaged in the Internet.
                I could not find to read. It's a pity.
              2. Alex 241
                Alex 241 1 September 2013 17: 06
                0
                Here’s a link, you can order a book http://www.alib.ru/5_nikolskiy_n_bessmertnyy_ekipazh_w1t2058ee4d3e136c21ea0826d1
                a4a59025d8ca.html
              3. Aleks tv
                Aleks tv 1 September 2013 17: 20
                0
                Quote: Alex 241
                here is the link,

                Got it.
                Thanks, Sasha.
              4. Alex 241
                Alex 241 1 September 2013 17: 23
                0
                It would be why Lesh himself was shocked, which wasn’t in the online libraries, but he couldn’t find this book, even on Nikolsky’s wiki, this book is not listed!
    2. ksan
      ksan 1 September 2013 22: 09
      +2
      alex 241 SU Today, 15:07 ↑

      On July 3, 1941, a T-28 tank raided occupied Minsk. The crew included cadets of the school, a senior sergeant with long service and one officer with the rank of major. In the course of movement, this random crew repeatedly entered into battle, destroyed an enemy convoy, a large number of manpower and armored vehicles. On the outskirts of Minsk, the tank was hit. Two died immediately. The fate of the others was different. Witnesses of this raid were residents of the occupied city. After the war, they restored this story ..
      Alexander thanks for the video. More such films and stories on TV and not the idiots from "Univer", "House-2", "Happy Together" may not have been "Pusi Wright", "War" and similar homosexuals.
  • Zhenya
    Zhenya 1 September 2013 15: 11
    0
    Aleks tv Absolutely right, not 18, but 28, I fixed it above, thanks for the reminder.
    You did not understand correctly. I explained above why it was not there. There were 10 similar feats, but roughly combined them into one, for the third time I write, I DON'T UNDERSTAND the heroism and heroism of our soldiers, but we must be objective.
    1. Aleks tv
      Aleks tv 1 September 2013 15: 22
      +2
      Quote: Marrying
      but one must be objective.

      Here is my attitude to the Feat of Panfilov:
      http://topwar.ru/30791-a-my-dostoyny-gryzni-o-28-panfilovcah-.html
      My article. There is nothing more to add.
      1. Zhenya
        Zhenya 1 September 2013 15: 31
        0
        Aleks tv Thank you, now I read.
  • creak
    creak 1 September 2013 11: 32
    +3
    When referring to the feat of the Panfilov’s, one should know that there were 28, not 18.
    1. vaddag1
      vaddag1 1 September 2013 11: 53
      0
      fair comment - guilty. the only inconsistency in your remark is "know" - in relation to me in this case, the word "remember"
  • olosors
    olosors 19 February 2015 10: 29
    0
    if you win by any means (in your quantity)
    if the defeat is worthy, with quality superiority and large losses of the enemy
  • duke
    duke 31 August 2013 16: 36
    +1
    how did their tanks outnumber our tanks in the war - the LMS, excellent sights, of course, communication, controllability even with small formations, and for crews there was no doubt training, discipline ...
  • 3danimal
    3danimal 19 May 2020 00: 09
    0
    We had more simple tank tanks and disposable crews ..
    Plus, the supply of equipment and materials from the allies.
  • Pimply
    Pimply 31 August 2013 14: 46
    +7


    Yes, wears it normally. The point is the distribution of weight over the area
    1. svp67
      svp67 31 August 2013 18: 32
      +1
      Quote: Pimply
      Yes, wears it normally. The point is the distribution of weight over the area
      not so simple. If you take a tank, in your case an average one, then the diagram of weight distribution does not wake up such a straight line, it wakes up in a wavy shape, with an increase under the rollers and a decrease in the intervals between them, and at the maximum it will be equal to somewhere 0,85-0,90, here much more depends on the number and location of the rollers. The "Leo" A6, with a weight of 62 tons, has an average specific pressure of 0,84, which means that it wakes up to 0,9 under the rollers. The "A7" has a weight of 67 tons, the caterpillar is the same - it means that the specific pressure indicators are higher ...
    2. Prohor
      Prohor 1 September 2013 12: 11
      +1
      The only thing is the distribution of weight ??? Let’s do this - I put two pedestrians on myself, and you, Pupyrchaty, are a medium tank, it’s easier according to your logic!
  • duke
    duke 31 August 2013 16: 32
    +4
    the car is not only serious, but also beautiful in its own way, though with such an enticement that if even a fragmentation shell comes under the tower, there will be problems ... although the weight of course ... there are not enough bridges to carry it
  • Bad_gr
    Bad_gr 31 August 2013 18: 05
    +4
    Quote: svp67
    Yes, a serious car, but 67 tons !!! How does his earth wear it?

    Sometimes, like this:




    And it’s not our joy to drag ours out of the mud, let alone this fool ....
    1. Bad_gr
      Bad_gr 31 August 2013 18: 20
      +5
      APU is behind the bulletproof armor. The batteries are covered with the same armor from the other side.


      Engine compartment (Leopard-2A5). It can be seen that the sides are not very protected. At the expense of a heavy machine gun, I won’t say that the caliber of the 20th is already enough to damage the engine cooling radiators through the rear grill.


      Leopard Tank Tower 2A5. Inside this iron, there should normally be three crew members. There are people who want to discuss on the topic that in large western tanks, much space is assigned to the crew and they are much more comfortable than the tankers in our tanks?
      By the way, it is clear that the tower’s additional protection has no filling, just an angular piece of iron
      1. Bad_gr
        Bad_gr 31 August 2013 18: 44
        +4
        Comparison of Leo sizes with our T-90
        1. vladkavkaz
          vladkavkaz 31 August 2013 21: 39
          +1
          The higher the barn, the louder it will collapse?
          And if you take into account the fact that a friend wrote a little higher about almost no protection of the rear projection of the sides of Leo, then this prodigy of the modern Bundeswehr did not impress
          Although it is understandable why they went along such a path, the experience of the Great Patriotic War went to them in a lesson - for the sake of firepower and mobility, a reservation was sacrificed.
          With all this, more serious than the Germans, there are no opponents.
          1. Ka-52
            Ka-52 1 September 2013 02: 08
            0
            bravo, that's how you have to smash all the skeptics and lovers of Western weapons!
  • cdrt
    cdrt 2 September 2013 14: 59
    0
    Yes, a serious car, but 67 tons !!! How does his earth wear it?

    PzKpfw VIB - 69,8t. Everything came to the same weight, but with a 2 times powerful engine, corresponding transmission, new devices.
    On the other hand, it’s immediately obvious that such tanks are clearly not designed to invade the Russian Federation laughing
    Neither bridges can stand it, nor roads.
  • Endrew
    Endrew 6 November 2013 01: 39
    0
    The Germans didn’t build it like that!
    Mouse (200t)
  • svp67
    svp67 31 August 2013 08: 43
    +3
    Constant all-round observation of the battlefield, reducing the load on the commander and gunner, is provided by the information system (SAS). Its functions include the automatic detection and tracking of potential targets.
    But such a development did not prevent us from installing on our Armata, only better ...
    1. ramsi
      ramsi 31 August 2013 09: 40
      +7
      such a "better" could be an automated weapon control system from platoon to company, which allows one tank to "turn on" the weapons of the second, abandoned, but not completely destroyed (at least shoot KAZ from a dangerous direction, or put a smoke screen)
      1. svp67
        svp67 31 August 2013 10: 31
        +1
        Quote: ramsi
        this "better" could be an automated weapon control system from platoon to company,
        "Survey", how this system will resolve the issue of "survey", that is, timely detection of the enemy ...
      2. smile
        smile 1 September 2013 04: 15
        +1
        ramsi
        Judging by the advertising statements, the South Koreans allegedly solved this problem ... right down to the external control of the weapon systems of the abandoned crew, data and target designation from surveillance devices and sighting systems ... though, according to the Koreans, their cars are the best in the world. .. :))))
        1. Alex 241
          Alex 241 1 September 2013 04: 21
          +2
          Well, marvel at this miracle. K2 - Korean tank Black Panther
          1. Alex 241
            Alex 241 1 September 2013 04: 25
            +1
            with the translation..........
            1. smile
              smile 1 September 2013 04: 50
              +1
              Alex 241
              Knocked down ... like a cat with felt boots .... :)))) Still adyn once thanks! :))))
              1. Alex 241
                Alex 241 1 September 2013 04: 53
                +3
                Well, here's a heap for you laughing BMP K-21 South Korean infantry fighting vehicle
                1. Alex 241
                  Alex 241 1 September 2013 04: 55
                  +2
                  K-21 infantry fighting vehicle - South Korea, in service since 2009
                  3 crew members + 9 paratroopers

                  25 tons weight
                  armament - 40 mm automatic gun K40
                  2 ATGM launchers
                  7,62 machine gun
                  Diesel engine 740 l / s
                  range - 500 km
                  speed of 70 km / h on the highway, 40 km / h on rough terrain and 7 km / h on water
          2. smile
            smile 1 September 2013 04: 39
            +4
            Alex 241
            Thank you ... I admired it ... well, yes, this one has ... there is also active protection .... but with all his talents, I think he is not being massively sent to the series and for sale not only because of the price. ... but also due to the fact that it’s not as magnificent as they say .... in English .. and I just admired the video ... who is Korean, I don’t know ... it, by the way . the same opinion about me ... :)))
            1. Alex 241
              Alex 241 1 September 2013 04: 45
              +2
              Volodya but you must admit, even if the truth is 50 percent, this is a reason to scratch your turnips.
              1. smile
                smile 1 September 2013 13: 02
                +2
                Alex 241
                Of course there is ... ktozh argues that .... but if, God forbid, more truth? In general, somehow it becomes uncomfortable ....
    2. Aleks tv
      Aleks tv 31 August 2013 11: 43
      +8
      Quote: svp67
      But such a development did not prevent us from installing on our Armata, only better ...

      To the very point.
      Finding a target and correctly classifying its danger is more difficult than getting into the target itself.
      On 7+ they did something similar, now it's up to our developers, we have been waiting for something like that for a long time, but better - a more tenacious "look because of armor" system for small caliber.
      And Leo always caused respect ... radishes.
      1. svp67
        svp67 31 August 2013 11: 51
        +9
        Quote: Aleks tv
        And Leo always caused respect ... radishes.
        Yes, there is something to envy. Good "devils". A clean, smooth body, no "pedestals" for you, even "inflated" bulwarks look harmonious, unlike Oplot. Well, the "bar" has been raised to a new level and it looks like the Germans managed to overcome it, we are waiting for our answer. I really want the Germans not to jump over that "bar" even with two "+" ... tongue
        1. Aleks tv
          Aleks tv 31 August 2013 12: 22
          +4
          Quote: svp67
          Clean, sleek body

          This is what caught my eye, they are taking a completely different path, not like everyone else. On the right track.
          Add a multi-camera observation with overlapping viewing angles in the event of the destruction of part of the optics - an excellent machine is obtained.

          The word is ours. I believe that they will do it, plus a backup optical observation line without the participation of electronics, if only they would not pull for a long time.
          1. svp67
            svp67 31 August 2013 12: 34
            +3
            Quote: Aleks tv
            go a completely different way, not like everyone else
            I do not agree ... here, too, there is little "excess" left to remove
            1. svp67
              svp67 31 August 2013 12: 48
              +3
              _____________________________
              1. Aleks tv
                Aleks tv 31 August 2013 13: 17
                +5
                Quote: svp67
                here, too, there is little "excess" left to remove

                Do not rage on the soul, Sergey ...
                smile
                He was stunned when he saw him for the first time.
                They put on it almost everything that tankers needed.
                On such a machine would serve ...

                Not so long ago on the forum during the discussion slipped infa that "eggs" will be installed on all helicopters that will be involved in hostilities.
                I wish we had done something similar: before the arrival of Almaty, only T-90ms machines are sent to the conflict zone ...
                I am a storyteller, a storyteller.
            2. The comment was deleted.
            3. ramsi
              ramsi 31 August 2013 14: 56
              0
              Quote: svp67
              Quote: Aleks tv
              go a completely different way, not like everyone else
              I do not agree ... here, too, there is little "excess" left to remove

              As far as I understand, the upper "belt" DZ "beats off" the projectile up, and the lower - down ... Down is not very good
              1. svp67
                svp67 31 August 2013 20: 32
                +3
                Quote: ramsi
                As far as I understand, the upper "belt" DZ "beats off" the projectile up, and the lower - down ... Down is not very good
                Here the principle is somewhat different and nothing terrible happens, but they are set at an "angle" so that as many "boxes" as possible cover the most affected areas
                1. Yemelya
                  Yemelya 31 August 2013 21: 22
                  +1
                  Quote: svp67
                  and they are set at an "angle" so that as many "boxes" as possible cover the most affected areas


                  As far as knowing, the angle of the meeting also matters.
                  1. svp67
                    svp67 31 August 2013 21: 25
                    +1
                    Quote: Emelya
                    As far as knowing, the angle of the meeting also matters.

                    It’s a little different and it’s not the most important thing ... they can be installed anyway

                    and so
                    1. Yemelya
                      Yemelya 31 August 2013 22: 03
                      +1
                      Quote: svp67
                      It’s a little different and it’s not the most important thing ... they can be installed anyway


                      On the T-72B, in my opinion, with the installation of DZ, they were not particularly driven, they stuck anyhow on the tower, on the screens. On the T-72B with "Contact-5" the elements on the turret were installed at an even sharper angle than on the T-72AV, on the "Slingshot" the angle was even greater, on the "Burlak" they simply made one long element.
                      1. svp67
                        svp67 31 August 2013 22: 06
                        +1
                        On your photo T90, and on it DZ is already installed differently ...
                      2. Yemelya
                        Yemelya 31 August 2013 22: 28
                        +2
                        Quote: svp67
                        On your photo T90, and on it DZ is already installed differently ...


                        The photo shows the Burlak module on the T-72 or T-90 chassis.

                        I meant that over time, the elements of remote sensing on the tower were installed at an ever greater angle to each other.
                      3. svp67
                        svp67 31 August 2013 22: 37
                        +4
                        Quote: Emelya
                        I meant that over time, the elements of remote sensing on the tower were installed at an ever greater angle to each other.
                        When a projectile hits, the "box" is triggered, which means that the section of the armor is "exposed", for which it is installed at an angle to cover the sections of armor with a large number. But this is already yesterday - the future, for "modular" booking
                      4. Bad_gr
                        Bad_gr 31 August 2013 22: 51
                        +3
                        Quote: svp67
                        for which they are installed at an angle, which would cover a large number of areas of armor.

                        The effectiveness of active armor depends on the angle at which the projectile hit it, the sharper it is - the higher the efficiency. Modern active protection protects not only from cumulative, but also reduces the breakdown effect of BOPS (it can break it).
                      5. Yemelya
                        Yemelya 31 August 2013 23: 04
                        +1
                        Quote: svp67
                        When a projectile hits, the "box" is triggered, which means that the section of the armor is "exposed", for which it is installed at an angle to cover the sections of armor with a large number.


                        "The complex of the first generation" Contact-1 "was implemented in a hinged version. The installation of the ZUDT was carried out according to a two-row planar-directional scheme, so as to achieve large angles at which the interaction of the plates with the cumulative jet would be most effective. on the cumulative jet ZUDT with the use of projectile platinum depends on the angle of impact of the cumulative jet with them.At the meeting angles (the angle is measured from the normal to the container surface) 50-70 degrees. 30-45 degrees.the impact of the reactive container still significantly reduces the armor-piercing ability of the cumulative jet, although it is reduced by 60 or more percent of the optimum.At the meeting angles close to the normal to the container surface, the device loses most of its effectiveness and, as a rule, cannot provide protection the main armor barriers from the cumulative jet. "

                        http://btvt.narod.ru/4/kontakt5_.htm
                      6. The comment was deleted.
              2. Aleks tv
                Aleks tv 31 August 2013 22: 46
                +3
                Quote: Emelya
                On the T-72B, in my opinion, they didn’t drive it with the installation of DZs, they stuck on whatever got to the tower, what to the screens.

                Emelya (sorry, I don’t know the name)
                in two photos:
                Quote: svp67
                It’s a little different and it’s not the most important thing ... they can be installed anyway

                Quote: svp67
                and so

                This is exactly the most successful variant of continuous (this is more important) protection of the "Object 184".
                It showed itself as efficiently as possible with a trained crew and a competently "shod" machine.
                Only the sides of any rubbish do not hurt, otherwise it will tear off the meat ...
                One of the tanks of the 2 team .. the regiment stopped only an aimed shot at the commander’s turret.
              3. bask
                bask 31 August 2013 23: 03
                +2
                Quote: svp67
                the future, for "modular" booking

                Quote: Aleks tv
                It showed itself as efficiently as possible with a trained crew and a competently "shod" machine.

                Then why all these angles, the inclination of the armor. With a decrease in the internal volume of MBT.
                When all promising ATGMs will fly into the upper hemisphere of the hull and the roof of the tower.

                Shot from the film F. Bandachuk.
              4. svp67
                svp67 31 August 2013 23: 09
                +3
                Quote: bask
                Shot from the film F. Bandachuk.
                Not the best T64 upgrade ... repeat
              5. Aleks tv
                Aleks tv 1 September 2013 00: 05
                +2
                Quote: bask
                Then why all these angles, the inclination of the armor. With a decrease in the internal volume of MBT.
                When all promising ATGMs will fly into the upper hemisphere of the hull and the roof of the tower.

                Andrey ... brother, I'll try to type something intelligible on the "keyboard".

                I, in the tank ... (I would remember the smell and vibration ... with matyuki and the officer’s tablet open) ...

                Always worried (not afraid) for two things:
                - the "crowbar" of the armor-piercing, stupid in its development of intellect.
                - the cumulative head of all crap, from RPG-7 to ... I don’t remember.

                Shitty to remember ... this is the most difficult.

                The main thing,
                1. What would be the maximum protection against "crowbars" ... and this is the "angle of inclination" and ... "thickness" of the armor (composite is still a secret).
                ...YES.
                2. "Spaced" (no data in the public domain) armor, protected from a cumulative funnel, and ...
                The same simple "DZ" protected from any cumulative misunderstandings ...
                ...YES...

                Total...
                Do not forget the protection against the RPG-7, there is so much of this crap all over the world that there probably is in Antarctica.
                And be afraid of the Hyacinth shot as well.
                ...YES...
                Something like that.

                Need a set of protection.
                And this is just a "complex" of tank protection.

                And its main purpose is PROTECTED IMPACT.
                wink
              6. Alex 241
                Alex 241 1 September 2013 00: 28
                +2
                I welcome Lesh, but how about protection from an air attack, let's say the same PTAB 2.5M2
              7. bask
                bask 1 September 2013 00: 31
                +2
                Quote: Alex 241
                Lesh welcome, but as with protection from attack with

                Good night Alexey.
                Here I am, about the same !!!
                For example ATGM ,, Javelin ,,.
              8. Aleks tv
                Aleks tv 1 September 2013 01: 24
                +4
                Quote: bask
                For example ATGM ,, Javelin ,,.

                Andrey, well, I have not met him for 10 years ...
                To the navel, there was all crap ... but even Javelin alone did not meet.
                Yes, it is possible.
                But how much?
                And everything else was.

                We need a complex of protection against all "cumulative factors", regardless of the year of development.
                And watch the "speed" of the "funnels" approach ... there are also "developments" there.

                And ... protection from "scrap" ... and for them the future, if they are able to accumulate electricity ...
                He went too far into electromagnetic guns ...
                I'm sorry ...
                It’s more realistic to make tank charges in the tank launcher, divided into two fractions ...
                This is a more real question for chemists.
                Chemists secreted. This is normal.
              9. Alex 241
                Alex 241 1 September 2013 01: 32
                +2
                Sorry, Lesh, maybe in an amateurish way, but I will tell you that not to fall under the "scrap" of "cumulative" and other chiaroscuro, the tank commander must have all the tactical information both in the air and on the ground. For this, the vehicles need to be equipped with certain equipment, such as a tactical situation indicator, data transmission equipment, and all this is integrated into one information system.
          2. Aleks tv
            Aleks tv 1 September 2013 00: 44
            +3
            Quote: Alex 241
            but as with protection against an attack from the air, let's say the same PTAB 2.5М2

            Sanya, hi!
            No way ...
            Only a solid field "DZ" on the tower.
            And GOD (Amen) also needs to pray that the PTAB and any other airborne husk are not tandem.
            The T-90MS can somehow "hold" your air onslaught ...
            winked
            The old T-72B "turtle", quiet in its "anger," can still take an air strike ... but not the T-72B3 ...
          3. svp67
            svp67 1 September 2013 00: 51
            +2
            Quote: Aleks tv
            The old T-72B "turtle", quiet in its "anger," can still take an air strike ... but not the T-72B3 ...
            So far, the only tank in which the principles of "increased roof protection" were originally laid down is the French "Leclerc"
          4. Alex 241
            Alex 241 1 September 2013 00: 51
            +3
            Lesh saw a PTAB2.5M2 sample 89goda pierced 9 sheets of 10cm thickness at the training ground. In short, the magician would fly in a blue helicopter, and Marusya would cry for a beautiful handkerchief.
          5. svp67
            svp67 1 September 2013 01: 27
            +2
            Quote: Alex 241
            In short, a magician will fly in a blue helicopter, and Marusya cried for a beautiful scarf
            Now for this, wizards use rockets ...
          6. Alex 241
            Alex 241 1 September 2013 01: 36
            +1
            Seryozha, yes, I know, I know. Simply speaking figuratively with ammunition the cost of a cast-iron frying pan, you can disable the tank.
          7. svp67
            svp67 1 September 2013 01: 40
            +2
            Quote: Alex 241
            Seryozha, yes, I know, I know. Simply speaking figuratively with ammunition the cost of a cast-iron frying pan, you can disable the tank.
            Yes, I had no doubt ... But the fact that a penny bullet can destroy a multi-million dollar aircraft - how is it?
          8. Alex 241
            Alex 241 1 September 2013 01: 52
            +1
            It’s troublesome but, in principle, possible laughing
    3. Aleks tv
      Aleks tv 1 September 2013 01: 56
      +3
      Quote: Alex 241
      at the training ground I saw PTAB2.5М2 of the 89 sample pierced 9 sheets of 10 cm of thickness.

      Sasha ... Man ...
      Front-line aviation is a complete "magnifying glass" of deployment of battalion and company columns of the ground forces.
      ..........................
      Better in another way:
      You, there ..., from your "bell tower", develop THAT that is needed to defeat everyone there Leo, Abrashek. - we will be very grateful.
      And we, for our part, will try to get closer ...
      ... under your cover ...
      wink
      And under the "umbrella" of air defense ...

      And - complete the task.
      yes
      Tactics, Operational Art and Strategy.

      ... I love the deliberate "roar" of Crocodiles and ... the belated (in my ears) roar of the "Rooks" ...
      When it is in harmony with the preservation of personnel and the implementation of the Order of the entire unit, then ...

      NICE MUSIC...
    4. Alex 241
      Alex 241 1 September 2013 02: 06
      +6
      They say that helicopters are the souls of dead tanks.
  • Yemelya
    Yemelya 31 August 2013 23: 13
    +1
    Quote: Aleks tv
    This is exactly the most successful variant of continuous (this is more important) protection of the "Object 184".


    In the first photo of the T-72S, in the second T-72AV.


    Quote: Aleks tv
    It showed itself as efficiently as possible with a trained crew and a competently "shod" machine.
    Only the sides of any rubbish do not hurt, otherwise it will tear off the meat ...


    This variant was soon replaced by "Contact-5".
  • Nayhas
    Nayhas 31 August 2013 13: 48
    +2
    Quote: Aleks tv
    Add a multi-camera observation with overlapping viewing angles in the event of the destruction of part of the optics - an excellent machine is obtained.

    Well, in general, it is better to use mini UAVs launched from the aft niche, in principle, the prior art already allows ...
    1. Aleks tv
      Aleks tv 31 August 2013 13: 57
      +3
      Quote: Nayhas
      it’s better to use mini UAVs launched from the aft niche,

      First, you need to "look from under the armor" with the integration of tanks into one information field with the UAV of the tactical level of the unit.
      We have already come close to this.

      Then, think about individual mini UAVs, but not earlier, it may not be necessary to use individual ones.
      The issue has not been studied.
    2. svp67
      svp67 1 September 2013 00: 55
      +1
      Quote: Nayhas
      Well, in general, it is better to use mini UAVs launched from the aft niche, in principle, the prior art already allows ...
      No need to overload the commander. In order to discern with the help of UAVs on the earth, you need to learn and most importantly do not lose your skill, that is, constantly train. I think that it would be better if this is done by a specially trained person - the UAV operator. and the tank commander’s tablet should no longer transmit video, but a graphic display of the situation ... with identified goals and objectives.
  • Kars
    Kars 31 August 2013 14: 10
    +3
    Quote: svp67
    even the "inflated" bulwarks look harmonious, in contrast to the "Oplot".

    Wow, remember ..

    and on the topic of Leopard, they’ve too much praise, the tank is like a tank. Ceramics were thrown up - and before that it was onboard generally cardboard, the protection of the BC is weak, the presence of BC in the hull.
    Here's a gun, yes a good one.
    And in general, according to Leo, there were no statements that his bots were held by tandem cumulative ammunition.

    Yes, and a stand is available.
    1. Aleks tv
      Aleks tv 31 August 2013 14: 43
      +3
      Quote: Kars
      on the subject of Leopard too praised, a tank like a tank.

      Hello Kars.

      Also in the know about Leo's flaws.

      There is only one trick:
      I don’t know how it is now, but in my years when they asked tankmen who they would have with, ahem ... small problems from the list: Abrashka, Leo, Carrot ...
      Many, thinking, called - Leo.

      Maybe it’s already in the kinetics of the subconscious mind ... with the Germans, who knows.
      wink

      Leo-2 and Challenger-2 are worthy rivals.

      Photo for a smile: fare.
      1. Kars
        Kars 31 August 2013 15: 10
        +1
        Quote: Aleks tv
        Maybe it’s already in the kinetics of the subconscious mind ... with the Germans, who knows.

        Likely.
    2. svp67
      svp67 1 September 2013 01: 35
      +2
      Quote: Kars
      Yes, and a stand is available.
      The picture shows a Finnish army tank, which means it is "Leo2A4", and "Leo2A7" has two main modifications
      - simpler with analog content and a "curbstone" of the sight, or rather a "bedside table"

      and more complex - "digital"
      1. vladkavkaz
        vladkavkaz 1 September 2013 12: 33
        0
        It’s interesting that 125 mm flew into this impressive lagoon under the tower, even in OFZ, what will happen? What if it’s bigger? As well as from the stern, the tower will not be pushed over?
        for me, the design of our towers on tanks, which is more constructive and smarter than that, No. look.
      2. Kars
        Kars 1 September 2013 13: 02
        +2
        Quote: svp67
        The picture shows a Finnish army tank, which means it is "Leo2A4",

        And why not Leo6 / 5 and maybe Swiss?
        Quote: svp67
        ve major modifications
        - simpler with analogue content and

        A curbstone, like a curbstone, only placing it closer to the stern of the tower visually conceals the envelope.
  • Kars
    Kars 31 August 2013 14: 11
    +2
    ____________
  • TS3sta3
    TS3sta3 31 August 2013 09: 18
    +3
    all the advantages painted as expected, and even
    dynamic smoke "wall"
    mentioned. but not a word about the flaws. objectivity is not enough. KAZ there ?, what kind of hole in the forehead of the tower? how does he get to the battlefield with such a weight? in a real battle how did he show himself? with the partisans? in an urban setting? who struck in the forehead? how does the blow hold? on homemade firecrackers blown up?
    1. svp67
      svp67 31 August 2013 09: 41
      +4
      Quote: TS3sta3
      dynamic smoke "wall"
      in modern conditions - a very simple way to protect against ATGMs.
      Quote: TS3sta3
      KAZ is there?
      Germans consider it superfluous, since it, in its modern form, poses a threat to its own infantry ...
      Quote: TS3sta3
      what is the hole in the forehead of the tower?
      - a tunnel in the additional protection module for the passage of bullets coaxial with a machine gun cannon ...
      Quote: TS3sta3
      how does he get to the battlefield with such a weight?
      Yes, as is customary with them - riding a car trailer ...
      Quote: TS3sta3
      in a real battle how did he show himself? with the partisans? in an urban setting?

      while this tank in real battles participated only in Afghanistan and that there are no photos of the wrecked ones yet ...



      1. TS3sta3
        TS3sta3 31 August 2013 22: 27
        0
        I did not understand at all about the "dynamic smoke wall". the fact that a tank puts a smoke screen is understandable, it is not only tanks that can. but what is meant by "dynamic", does he move this veil from place to place? changes its shape? or what?
    2. Beck
      Beck 31 August 2013 20: 17
      0
      What LOGIC and prudence is not?

      Quote: TS3sta3
      what is the hole in the forehead of the tower?


      For coaxial machine gun. Or will he shoot through the frontal armor?

      Quote: TS3sta3
      how does he get to the battlefield with such a weight?


      If not in the subject, why tear the throat. Modern tanks for long distances carry special tractors.

      Quote: TS3sta3
      in a real battle how did he show himself? with the partisans? in an urban setting? who struck in the forehead? how does the blow hold?


      Tank Leopard 2 A7 + NEW development. How could he take part in hostilities? If for you these are the criteria, the T-34 and the German T-111 participated most of all in the hostilities. They participated in the battles and fought with the partisans, and punched each other in the forehead.

      So, based on your logic, the T-34 and T-111 are better and far superior to the Leopard 2 A7 +, because he did not participate in anything.

      And so as not to ruin your brains before writing?
      1. TS3sta3
        TS3sta3 31 August 2013 22: 21
        +1
        I mean it (No.1). can you answer why this is necessary?
        and he did participate in the battle. why tear the throat that did not fight?
        During the offensive on November 2, 2007, the 2A6M tank was blown up by an improvised explosive device, but remained intact: "The crew got into an IED and became the first to test the Leopard 2A6M modification," the Canadian officer wrote to German media. The chief of staff of the Canadian armed forces, General Rick Hillier, reported that the tank, having blown up on an IED, was decommissioned, but after repairs it returned to the ranks.

        Denmark also introduced the Leopard 2007A2 DK to southern Afghanistan in October 5. The tank was taken from the Jydske Dragonregiment (Jutland Dragoons Regiment) battalion, which had 3 tanks, one M113 infantry fighting vehicle, a reconnaissance vehicle and other tanks in reserve. The Danish version of the Leopard 2A5 is equipped with the Swedish Barracuda camouflage, which limits the absorption of solar radiation, which reduces the machine's IR signature. In addition, the tank has a traditional floor-mounted driver's seat, while the Canadian 2A6M uses a "Dynamic Safety Seat" as a mine protection, thanks to which the driver is secured with similar parachute belts. 6 wide straps keep it hanging in the right position. In this case, contact of the driver with the tank hull is excluded, which reduces the impact on him of the consequences of an explosion.

        In January 2008, Danish tanks stopped the Taliban flanking maneuver near the Helmand River, provided fire support to the Danish and British infantry from the hill. 26 February 2008 year, the Danish Leopard 2 was blown up on a land mine and one truck was damaged. The car under its own power returned to the camp for repair. The first fatal incident for the crew occurred on July 25 2008 of the year. Danish Leopard 2A5 was blown up by IEDs in Helmand province. The car drove another 200 meters after the explosion. Three crew members, being wounded, left the tank, the driver could not be saved. In the same incident, a second tank hit a land mine, but none of the crew members were injured.

        http://rusdods.ya1.ru/main/articles/1659-leopard-2.html
  • Beck
    Beck 31 August 2013 09: 20
    +5
    Yeah!

    MACHINE of the highest class. About 30 years ago, the appearance of the Leopard would have been taken for a fantastic one, and now both the appearance and the filling are impressive.
    1. TS3sta3
      TS3sta3 31 August 2013 22: 23
      0
      every man to his own taste. he does not impress me.
      1. Beck
        Beck 1 September 2013 09: 12
        -1
        Quote: TS3sta3
        every man to his own taste. he does not impress me.


        But this is clearly correct. The tastes are different, the colors are vague.
  • ramsi
    ramsi 31 August 2013 09: 27
    +1
    and the driver in general has a chance to get out, in which case?
  • Ascetic
    Ascetic 31 August 2013 09: 43
    +2
    A bit off topic, recently a tank biathlon competition in T-72B was held in Alabino. Next year the Germans want to take part in this "Leopard" and amer on the "Abrams" and possibly Italians.



    In Alabino, tankers carried out training tasks that are on every military training ground for speed and accuracy. We fell into the layout of the helicopter and covered the route of 18300 meters, overcoming obstacles hill, wall, escarp, minefield, ford. According to the rules of ski biathlon, in the event of a miss during shooting, the tank made a penalty loop 500 meters long. Two misses turned into an extra kilometer. Shooting was carried out by an anti-tank guided missile from a 125-mm tank gun, a NSVT machine gun at a range of 1600 to 2500 kilometers.
    According to the results of inter-district competitions, the tank crew of the 138th separate motorized rifle brigade of the Western Military District became the best. The tank commander is Junior Sergeant Nikolai Morokov, the gunner-operator is Senior Sergeant Ravenalya Ivan, the driver is Private Igor Artemyev. In the international race, they again became the first.
    link
    1. svp67
      svp67 31 August 2013 09: 57
      +4
      Quote: Ascetic
      Next year the Germans want to take part in this "Leopard" and amer on the "Abrams" and possibly Italians.
      This is only if at that moment they will not "compete" in Syria ...
      1. Beck
        Beck 31 August 2013 20: 27
        +1
        Quote: svp67
        This is only if at that moment they will not "compete" in Syria ..


        I don’t know how it is now, but ten years ago annually tank competitions of the crews of NATO countries took place. The Germans on the Leopards, the Amers on the Abrams, the British on the Challengers, the French (although they are not in NATO) on the AMX, well, other countries, depending on what kind of tanks they were armed with.

        So overwhelmingly, the German crews won on the Leopards.
        1. Su-9
          Su-9 1 September 2013 07: 16
          0
          So they are doing it now.
          Here is the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Army_Trophy
    2. sedoj
      sedoj 1 September 2013 17: 16
      +2
      Quote: Ascetic
      Shooting was carried out by an anti-tank guided missile from a 125-mm tank gun, a NSVT machine gun at a range of 1600 to 2500 kilometers.

      With such weapons you can shoot from the location in Geyropu. :) :) laughing
  • Massik
    Massik 31 August 2013 10: 32
    +1
    Heh and Syria were dragged here as much as possible already, as if someone were deciding whether to fight in Syria or not. a tank in the tradition of the German school, only the guns lack innovation, it’s interesting if we try to develop a technique weighing more than 60 tons ourselves, how do we get protection in terms of security ???
    1. svp67
      svp67 31 August 2013 11: 01
      0
      Quote: Marssik
      , as if someone is deciding whether to fight in Syria or not.
      So far HERE is doing it only YOU ...
      1. Massik
        Massik 31 August 2013 14: 59
        0
        So far HERE is doing it only YOU ...
        Where exactly am I solving this issue ???
  • Iraclius
    Iraclius 31 August 2013 11: 26
    0
    Severe infection. And so - yes, it is impressive. To get even more data on the experience of combat use. winked
    installation on the roof of a tower of a combat module with remote control KMW FLW 200 with a machine gun of 12,7 mm caliber, as well as an 76-mm grenade launcher

    When will we wait for this in a series?
    To increase survivability (especially from RPGs), additional passive armor was installed along the frontal arc, as well as along the sides of the hull and tower. Together with the main improvements to the changes in the hull and turret, additional reservation is established on the bottom of the hull.

    I correctly understood from the photos that damaged armor can be replaced in the field?
    The latest developments in the field of electronics, optics, communications give the crew, instead of fragmentary "pictures" in periscopes and sights, which are very limited in terms of angle of view and range, a full panorama of the surrounding space, showing the location of the enemy and the maneuvers of their unit. The digital turret concept actually helps the crew see through the armor. But it is precisely this property that is one of the most important when creating a new generation tank with an uninhabited turret and an armored capsule for the crew, as the domestic T-95 was conceived. "

    While ours are pulling the cat by the eggs, the Germans are already introducing the latest panoramic multispectral systems .. No.
    1. svp67
      svp67 31 August 2013 12: 50
      +2
      Quote: Iraclius
      I correctly understood from the photos that damaged armor can be replaced in the field?

      Yes. And the most offensive, we were the first in this respect ...
    2. Massik
      Massik 31 August 2013 15: 02
      +1
      Clarify the tankers, if a tank quickly bursts a shell, throws up half a ton of dirt and closes all these cameras together with triplexes, how is this problem solved?
      1. Kars
        Kars 31 August 2013 15: 12
        +3
        Quote: Marssik
        How is this problem solved?

        Janitors, washers. Handkerchief.
        1. Aleks tv
          Aleks tv 31 August 2013 15: 26
          +5
          Quote: Marssik
          How is this problem solved?


          Quote: Kars
          Wipers, washers.

          At the moment - yes, it is.

          For example, a T-72 day sight has a mechanical janitor.

          A mehan without these stray can not at all.
          He also has liquid cleaning and air, otherwise nothing.
          Nobody has canceled the dirt.
      2. svp67
        svp67 31 August 2013 20: 23
        +3
        Quote: Marssik
        Clarify the tankers, if a tank quickly bursts a shell, throws up half a ton of dirt and closes all these cameras together with triplexes, how is this problem solved?

        Well, if "half a ton", then where with a shovel, where you have to clean it with a brush, then wipe it with a rag ... If less, and so it happens in 99,9% - then using a standard cleaning system, both mechanical - in the form of wipers, so and hydropneumatic - high pressure water supply or air alone ...
        1. Aleks tv
          Aleks tv 31 August 2013 20: 30
          +2
          Quote: svp67
          Well, if "half a ton" then where with a shovel, where with a brush will have to be removed,

          exactly, "half a ton" is the key word here.
          laughing good
          Sho then I'm getting old, such good-natured jokes could have been soaked about "half a ton" ...
          1. Massik
            Massik 1 September 2013 11: 50
            +1
            Once a 152 mm shell was pulled in front of an armored vehicle, then it was pretty clay, I certainly didn’t weigh it, but I certainly didn’t weigh 200-300 kg, so I ask, I’ve clarified it, otherwise I’m a distant person from tank forces, I thought I’d get out and wipes laughing
  • vietnam7
    vietnam7 31 August 2013 11: 59
    +5
    On a hike, a mechanized drive in combat conditions is written off along with the tank. All cameras in a real battle will be demolished at the first close explosions and shelling of the tank itself. He would be in Chechnya in November, in the mud and tortured, there it will be seen, a combat vehicle or "for peacekeeping missions."
  • ed65b
    ed65b 31 August 2013 12: 47
    +5
    Healthy fool. Well done nemchur. It was only necessary for Joseph Vissarionovich to make the name change or ban altogether, so that the words tiger, leopard, panther would be forgotten. Let some gophers call. He brings in atoms.
  • Trevis
    Trevis 31 August 2013 12: 47
    0
    My favorite NATO tank.
    1. svp67
      svp67 31 August 2013 12: 49
      +4
      Quote: Trevis
      My favorite NATO tank.
      Another would be to learn how to "cook" it what
  • Bersaglieri
    Bersaglieri 31 August 2013 12: 58
    0
    Quote: svp67
    The updated tank is optimized for use both in conventional combat operations and for operations in the conditions of the city.
    Yes, a serious car, but 67 tons !!! How does his earth wear it? belay

    The Royal Tiger weighed as much. And Merkava in full body kit is even heavier.
  • ramsi
    ramsi 31 August 2013 13: 41
    0
    why is it nowhere to be seen how he can "squat" - front, back, side-to-side, because he seems to be able to? .. the exhaust also does not seem optimal - probably better, after all, back, but up at 45 degrees
    1. svp67
      svp67 31 August 2013 13: 44
      0
      Quote: ramsi
      why is it nowhere to be seen how he can "squat" - front, back, side-to-side, because he seems to be able to? .. the exhaust also does not seem optimal - probably better, all the same, back, but at 45 degrees
      And you and his "Korean"

      or "Japanese"

      do not confuse?
      1. ramsi
        ramsi 31 August 2013 13: 48
        +1
        and why do we praise him ?!
    2. svp67
      svp67 31 August 2013 18: 22
      +1
      Quote: ramsi
      the exhaust does not seem optimal either - it’s probably better, after all, backward, but upwards under 45 degrees
      The longer the exhaust pipe, the greater the loss of engine power, and it will take up more space, and in a tank it means extra armor and extra weight, which is why it is made shorter. It is impossible to bend it up, it already "glows" in the IR range, but here, in general, something like the sun is the best gift for instrumental reconnaissance tools and homing heads ...
      1. ramsi
        ramsi 31 August 2013 19: 28
        0
        but the radiator grill is not lit? .. But the pillar of dust behind the stern will be visible always and everywhere. At the expense of 45 degrees - I agree, got excited, probably 30 is enough
        1. svp67
          svp67 31 August 2013 20: 11
          +2
          Quote: ramsi
          and the radiator grill is not lit?
          Glows, but much less. And to neutralize it, special screens are used ...
          Quote: ramsi
          But the pillar of dust behind the stern will be visible always and everywhere
          Why something, and the exhaust column of dust raises least of all, the strongest dust effect of course from the tracks ..
          1. svp67
            svp67 31 August 2013 20: 16
            +1
            Quote: svp67
            Why something, and the exhaust column of dust raises least of all, the strongest dust effect of course from the tracks ..

          2. svp67
            svp67 31 August 2013 20: 17
            0
            Quote: svp67
            Why something, and the exhaust column of dust raises least of all, the strongest dust effect of course from the tracks ..

  • Akim
    Akim 31 August 2013 13: 46
    +5
    A little off topic, but about armored vehicles. The exhibition in Kölz starts on Monday .. This is what the Poles have done with Dozo-B
    1. svp67
      svp67 31 August 2013 13: 47
      +1
      Quote: Akim
      Here's what the Poles did with Dozo-B

      Why are they so .... crying
  • Krugov
    Krugov 31 August 2013 14: 07
    +2
    I would like to see the procedure for transporting this fool on a trawl with a total weight of more than 80 tons across the river over the Soviet-built bridge with a maximum load of 50 tons. But this is precisely why our technology has such a limitation.
    1. Drummer
      Drummer 31 August 2013 15: 17
      +3
      All our equipment was designed 30-40 years ago, which is why it has such a limitation. By the way, how are you going to carry a 50-ton T-90 (46-ton T-80U / UD) on a trailer over a bridge with a carrying capacity of 50 tons?
    2. svp67
      svp67 2 September 2013 02: 02
      0
      Quote: Krugov
      I would like to see the procedure for transporting this fool on a trawl with a total weight of more than 80 tons across the river over the bridge

      If they manage to carry SUCH, then "Leo2" will be transported somehow ..
  • Kir
    Kir 31 August 2013 15: 33
    0
    By the way, what kind of "modernization" in one of the photos "dives", there it seems to have swivel headlights, and what kind of mirrors should be installed if it is already circular or just for every fireman? And so the tank does not look at its tonnage, it was even visually struck in a good direction, by the way a question for the specialists, but with a molybdenum core someone produces.
    1. Aleks tv
      Aleks tv 31 August 2013 15: 44
      0
      Quote: Kir
      and also for what to put mirrors if and so is provided with a circular or like on every fireman?

      A very convenient thing for driving in non-combat conditions, the Germans used them before, before installing the optical kit.
      We don’t.
      I would also not have abandoned them when moving in a column or surrendering.
      1. Kir
        Kir 31 August 2013 15: 49
        0
        Thanks for the explanations, well, in principle, I thought about something similar, but still I wonder what kind of modernization "dives" just the headlights are painfully interesting.
        1. Aleks tv
          Aleks tv 31 August 2013 16: 08
          0
          Quote: Kir
          but all the same it is interesting what kind of modernization "dives" the headlights are just too interesting.


          I am not a well-informed expert on Leo, I’ll just assume that this is 2A7 without an optical system with a modified face.

          Type in Yandex "Leopard 2A7" in the "pictures" section, you will find this particular photo with a high resolution, all the optics are clearly visible there.
          1. Kars
            Kars 31 August 2013 16: 45
            +2
            Quote: Aleks tv
            that it is 2A7 without an optical system with a modified face.

            This is a modernization of Leo2A4
            1. Aleks tv
              Aleks tv 31 August 2013 16: 53
              0
              Quote: Kars
              This is a modernization of Leo2A4

              Thanks, Kars.
              I will remember the same.
  • vietnam7
    vietnam7 31 August 2013 15: 34
    0
    70 tons will probably be a limitation for everyone - railway platforms are no longer lifted. On the video "" Oberst paints something colorfully, who spins in German please translate :)
    1. igor67
      igor67 31 August 2013 15: 38
      +4
      Quote: vietnam7
      70 tons will probably be a limitation for everyone - railway platforms are no longer lifted. On the video "" Oberst paints something colorfully, who spins in German please translate :)

      In my opinion, this problem is only in Russia and maybe the United States because of the size of states, and so tanks are transported by tractors.
      1. Aleks tv
        Aleks tv 31 August 2013 16: 22
        +1
        Quote: igor67
        and so the tanks are transported by tractors.

        When I look at such pictures, I always remember how in the movie "The Adventures of Italians in Russia" they hijacked a car from a car transporter ...
        laughing

        Igor, this is just good humor on my part, and nothing more.
        Plus for the photo, tourists are probably interested in the bus.
        hi
        1. igor67
          igor67 31 August 2013 16: 31
          +1
          Quote: Aleks tv
          Quote: igor67
          and so the tanks are transported by tractors.

          When I look at such pictures, I always remember how in the movie "The Adventures of Italians in Russia" they hijacked a car from a car transporter ...
          laughing

          Igor, this is just good humor on my part, and nothing more.
          Plus for the photo, tourists are probably interested in the bus.
          hi

          I think it was interesting from the beginning, and then trail uphill after him, I managed to overtake the sheer truth, but they trailed behind him for a long time, I already reached the place drinks
          1. Aleks tv
            Aleks tv 31 August 2013 16: 56
            +1
            Quote: igor67
            I managed to overtake

            Own photo?
            Hello ...
            drinks
            1. igor67
              igor67 2 September 2013 17: 04
              +1
              Quote: Aleks tv
              Quote: igor67
              I managed to overtake

              Own photo?
              Hello ...
              drinks

              here's another,
      2. Kars
        Kars 31 August 2013 16: 42
        +3
        ___________________
  • sergey158-29
    sergey158-29 31 August 2013 17: 13
    +1
    QUOTE: Leopard 2A7 + is a modular update package:

    - installation on the roof of the tower of the combat module with remote control
    - cardinal improvement of protection
    - air conditioning system installed
    - installed auxiliary power unit
    - in the rear of the hull is equipped with a connection point for infantry phones
    - implementation of the digital tower technology

    BEAUTY! As for me, the BEST MBT ... good
  • DesToeR
    DesToeR 31 August 2013 18: 28
    +2
    I do not understand the enthusiasm for this modification:
    1) an armament module with a 12,7mm machine gun - 70 years since it is put on tanks. If I'm not mistaken on the T-80, it is remotely controlled from the tower
    2) improvement of armor - it is not surprising to "improve" at the expense of weight, but how did the survivability indicator change, Tiger B had a good armor ... Gusli, engine and gearbox remained the same? And this tank started with a weight of approximately 55 tons (I don't remember exactly). We added 10 ... 12 tons to the original weight - a cool upgrade. Yes, and for the size of the armor climbs out well - interestingly, when colliding with obstacles in the city, this armor does not fly off, but you need to remove it on a standard railway platform, but will it pass in a tunnel with a bend?
    3) only the lazy did not put air conditioning on tanks
    4) APU in the 21st century on a tank - this is a revolution - well done designers.

    By the way, a question for connoisseurs: is it true that with a 44-caliber gun, the speed of defeat is 1min. higher than with 55k?
    1. Yemelya
      Yemelya 31 August 2013 21: 40
      +1
      Quote: DesToeR
      1) an armament module with a 12,7mm machine gun - 70 years since it is put on tanks. If I'm not mistaken on the T-80, it is remotely controlled from the tower


      Starting with the T-64A, but only in Kharkov, the T-72 and T-80 (gas turbine) was not installed. On the T-90 set. But this is still not a module. The module should be autonomous, and on the Kharkov ZPU the tape is changed manually. Modular installation on the T-90MS.
  • yanus
    yanus 31 August 2013 20: 31
    0
    Quote: igor67
    Quote: vietnam7
    70 tons will probably be a limitation for everyone - railway platforms are no longer lifted. On the video "" Oberst paints something colorfully, who spins in German please translate :)

    In my opinion, this problem is only in Russia and maybe the United States because of the size of states, and so tanks are transported by tractors.

    And of course no one will "cover" them during the march? Wouldn't it be just as dishonest?
    1. svp67
      svp67 31 August 2013 21: 05
      0
      Quote: yanus
      And of course no one will "cover" them during the march? Wouldn't it be just as dishonest?
      Well, if you "cover" then in the areas of loading or unloading - the efficiency will be greater ...
  • svp67
    svp67 31 August 2013 20: 34
    +1
    Off topic, but no one knows who the T72 is so disfigured, and most importantly why?
    1. Aleks tv
      Aleks tv 31 August 2013 20: 39
      0
      Quote: svp67
      Off topic, but no one knows who the T72 is so disfigured, and most importantly why?

      Sergei, it’s like I’ve already seen this somewhere ... They installed a panoramic view to the commander and a thermal imager to the gunner.
      Seem South Africa, something from there.
      Modernization "ala-only on polygons it is beautiful to smack".
      If I find something, I will drop it.
      1. Aleks tv
        Aleks tv 31 August 2013 21: 05
        +2
        Quote: Aleks tv
        If I find something, I will drop it.

        Yes, this is the modernization of South Africa.
        They tried to push it into Algeria, ours went around them.

        quote:
        ... The new version of the tank, designated the T-72 FDS (fiire control system upgrade), had a very unusual appearance, which is why some experts called it "alien" ...
        For sho they so him ...
      2. bask
        bask 31 August 2013 21: 06
        0
        Good evening, Alex.
        And how do you like this modernization of the T-72. (Croatia)

        "{" M-84D - Croatian version of the modernization of the Yugoslav MBT M-84. It is equipped with a brand new 1200 hp engine. sec. (895 kW) and the latest dynamic security
        Advanced thermal imaging cameras provide the ability to operate in low visibility criteria - at dusk, at night, in fog, smoke, etc. All the latest M84D and M84A4 tanks are equipped with a brand new communications kit from Racal. The power reserve of the M-84A4 and M-84D is 700 km, the maximum speed is 65 km / h. Improvement of the autoloader increased the rate of fire from 8 to 9 rounds per minute, the efficiency increased by 15%. "" [Media = http: //blogzet.com/7360-osnovnoy-tank-t-72-zarubezhnye-mo
        difikacii-13-foto-tekst.html]
        Ala Leo2A7 lol
        1. Aleks tv
          Aleks tv 31 August 2013 21: 11
          +2
          Quote: bask
          And how do you like this modernization of the T-72. (Croatia)

          Hello Andrey.
          For a long time did not communicate.
          drinks

          For me, any modernization of the Turtle is solid, if the gunner has a thermal imager, the commander's panoramic camera, a stabilized ZPU and all-round protection.

          But ... somehow, I trust the modernization of my native UVZ (reliability) more, although they are fisted.
          winked
          1. svp67
            svp67 31 August 2013 21: 14
            +1
            Quote: Aleks tv
            But ... somehow, I trust the modernization of my native UVZ (reliability) more, although they are fisted.

            Well, what can I say? Only - I support! drinks
            1. Aleks tv
              Aleks tv 31 August 2013 21: 16
              0
              Quote: svp67
              Only - I support!

              And where to go then?
              What if he refuses, where to go with a complaint - to South Africa? That diesel fuel is not enough.
              drinks
              1. svp67
                svp67 31 August 2013 21: 21
                +2
                Quote: Aleks tv
                What if he refuses, where to go with a complaint - to South Africa? That diesel fuel is not enough.

                In-in and spare parts will not wait, for six months they will "walk". No, we need to establish our own production. Total...
                In general, I am now more interested in this ...

                belay fellow repeat recourse good
                1. Aleks tv
                  Aleks tv 31 August 2013 21: 27
                  0
                  Quote: svp67
                  In general, I am now more interested in this ...

                  In those on ...
                  It seems that I also live in the Urals ... not too early for honey?
                  what
                  (flood already, however). eheh.
                  1. svp67
                    svp67 31 August 2013 21: 31
                    0
                    Quote: Aleks tv
                    (flood already, however). eheh.
                    Here I look at some messages that slip in the "PM", explain to the "armored" how to get to them and read them. And I will not flood ... wink
                    1. svp67
                      svp67 31 August 2013 21: 32
                      0
                      All THANKS to everyone, he "broke through the armor ..." repeat
          2. bask
            bask 31 August 2013 21: 32
            +2
            Quote: Aleks tv
            What if he refuses, where to go with a complaint - to South Africa? That diesel fuel is not enough.

            In South Africa would fly, wildebeests shoot. repeat This is the case. Or how South Africa Mrap in the factories design and manufacture.
            Quote: Aleks tv
            ... somehow, I trust the modernization of my native UVZ (reliability) more, even though they are sticky.

            Uralvagonzavod has recently been more occupied with its own commerce.
            At UVZ, a radical renewal of the machine park is needed. And the entire production line. We cannot put the armature on the old equipment. The same is true for Boomerang and Kurgan.
            1. Aleks tv
              Aleks tv 31 August 2013 21: 37
              +1
              Quote: bask
              In South Africa would fly, wildebeests shoot.

              Tank safaris?
              Andrey, you won’t believe it - I’ve been dreaming all my life!
              laughing

              About UVZ is not entirely clear. I can also understand that the Ministry of Defense is squeezing money for the modernization of the T-72B3, but the "hatch" on the bolts and the DZ of the tower ...
              There are no words and no good guesses.
              1. svp67
                svp67 31 August 2013 21: 51
                0
                Quote: Aleks tv
                There are no words and no good guesses.
                But I can - this is the modification of the "dark horse", which will "beat" the T80, the Abrams and Leo ... in the "biathlon". Another would be to find out what kind of "dviglo" on it ...
              2. bask
                bask 31 August 2013 21: 56
                0
                Quote: Aleks tv
                There are no words and no good guesses.

                Offers were from Omsk.
                I'm all about the tank, Black Eagle, (Object 640). Developed in the 90s by the Omsk Design Bureau. It was demonstrated in 1997. The undercarriage, from the T-80U tank with a newly built turret.
                Maybe I'm wrong, correct.
                1. But the modernization of the T-72, started with the installation of the V-92C2 diesel engine, 1130 l / s.
                2. A new tower, type ,, Object 640, ”with the removal of the entire BC in the stern of the tower. Maybe this does not solve all the problems, but still !!!
                1. Yemelya
                  Yemelya 31 August 2013 22: 11
                  +1
                  Quote: bask
                  1. But the modernization of the T-72, started with the installation of the V-92C2 diesel engine, 1130 l / s.
                  2. A new tower, type ,, Object 640, ”with the removal of the entire BC in the stern of the tower. Maybe this does not solve all the problems, but still !!!


                  A variant of such a modernization was proposed within the framework of the Burlak ROC, but the Acorn remained there and 22 rounds were placed in the aft AZ.
                  1. bask
                    bask 31 August 2013 22: 34
                    0
                    It’s a good idea, but installing two AZs on one MBT, then why the idea of ​​a fodder arrangement of BC. If in the tower of the tank with the fighting compartment there is a second automatic loader, carousel type (similar to the AZ of the T-72 tank). Again, the BC in the fighting compartment.
                    1. Bad_gr
                      Bad_gr 31 August 2013 22: 42
                      +1
                      Quote: bask
                      It’s a good idea, but installing two AZs on one MBT, then why the idea of ​​a fodder arrangement of BC. If in the tower of the tank with the fighting compartment there is a second automatic loader equipped with a carousel-type conveyor (similar to the AZ of the T-72 tank). Again BC in the fighting compartment.

                      There's a meaning:
                      all ammunition in the machines,
                      inside the tank, the ammunition remains only in the carousel, which is located in the most infested area of ​​the tank.
                      Of course, the crew in the armored capsule separately from the shells is much better, but also an order of magnitude more complicated.
                      1. bask
                        bask 31 August 2013 23: 20
                        0
                        Quote: Bad_gr
                        only the carousel remains in the tank, which is located in the most infested area

                        There is only one question. About the synchronization of the two AZs and their dimensions. In a tower with a standard volume for the T-72. Then you need a completely new welded (stamped) tower with a large internal volume.
                        And all HE shells, in the stern niche of the tower.
                        Quote: Bad_gr
                        Of course, the crew in the armored capsule separately from the shells is much better, but also an order of magnitude more complicated.

                        And the main thing is an order of magnitude or even two ROADS.
                        Let's see how it will be implemented on ,, Armata.. And yet, MBT without an inhabited tower sounds somehow fantastic.
                      2. Yemelya
                        Yemelya 31 August 2013 23: 36
                        0
                        Quote: bask
                        There is only one question. About the synchronization of the two AZs and their dimensions.


                        There is no need for synchronization, the combat units are independent of each other.

                        Quote: bask
                        In a tower with a standard volume for the T-72.


                        According to the developers, the feed AZ can also be stuck on the old tower.

                        Quote: bask
                        Then you need a completely new welded (stamped) tower with a large internal volume.


                        With the same volume for the "Acorn" operation, and a stern niche for the AZ with horizontal laying.
                      3. Aleks tv
                        Aleks tv 1 September 2013 01: 01
                        +1
                        Quote: Emelya
                        There is no need for synchronization, the combat units are independent of each other.

                        Quote: Emelya
                        According to the developers, the feed AZ can also be stuck on the old tower.

                        Quote: Emelya
                        With the same volume for the "Acorn" operation, and a stern niche for the AZ with horizontal laying.

                        Br ...
                        And what's the bad thing about ONE ammunition?
                        I paraphrase:
                        And what is wrong with ONE AZ (MZ) of a tank?
                        It would still be "released" ...
                        Why "fence the garden" in the daily release of the "BTGr fire rampart?" ... before the arrival of the rear.
                        A tank is not a panacea for solving all problems.
                        I will add:
                        There are Tactics, Operational Art and Strategy.
                        The ammunition of the tank is a specific issue ...
                        It needs to be asked by the GS, they are valuable for this, since - "GS".

                        Sincerely,
                        Alex.
                      4. svp67
                        svp67 1 September 2013 01: 09
                        +1
                        Quote: Aleks tv
                        Br ...

                        And now you can "slower", that I will not understand anything ...
                        On t72, the installation of a turret-mounted AZ is a forced measure and it was dictated by the impossibility of placing "high-power" BPS in a conventional conveyor ... So they should have been in the ZBAZ ... On the new tanks, everything will be decided differently ...
                      5. Yemelya
                        Yemelya 1 September 2013 13: 11
                        +1
                        Quote: Aleks tv
                        And what's the bad thing about ONE ammunition?


                        Everyone is good ... only no one has created it yet (the created military does not suit). On about. 640 AZ is too weakly protected. If damaged, the tank becomes unusable. On the "Burlak", damage to the zabashny AZ will not lead to the loss of the ability to fire, as well as damage to the "Acorn". Even if both AZs are damaged, the possibility of manual loading remains.

                        Once again, this is an ersatz, but, in my opinion, an ersatz is adequate. So to speak, what can be done now. The future, of course, is for isolated AZs.
              3. Yemelya
                Yemelya 31 August 2013 22: 46
                +2
                Quote: bask
                but the installation of two AZs on one MBT. Why then an undertaking with the aft arrangement of ammunition. If in the tower of the tank with the fighting compartment there is a second automatic loader equipped with a carousel-type conveyor (similar to the AZ of the T-72 tank). Again BC in the fighting compartment.


                No doubt, this is ersatz.

                But. This allows you to fully mechanize the ammunition, allows the tank to remain combat-ready in case of damage to the aft AZ, allows you to install the module on tanks already released. Fodder AZ is smaller in width than about. 640, which allows you to apply for its protection from the sides of a remote booking or remote sensing.

                The disadvantages of the two types of AZ, unfortunately, are plus.
                1. bask
                  bask 31 August 2013 23: 28
                  +1
                  Quote: Emelya
                  The disadvantages of the two types of AZ, unfortunately, are plus.

                  The idea is good, but needs further elaboration.
      3. Bad_gr
        Bad_gr 31 August 2013 22: 10
        +2
        Quote: bask
        At UVZ you need a radical renewal of the machine park. And the entire production line. On old equipment, Armata, cannot be put on the conveyor.
        "Armata" will be produced on the line with new equipment. The equipment was specially purchased for this production.
        1. bask
          bask 31 August 2013 22: 19
          +2
          Quote: Bad_gr
          "Armata" will be produced on the line with new equipment. The equipment was specially purchased for this production.

          I did not know Bad, thanks for the info ..
          You can link. What kind of equipment is installed on the line.
          1. Bad_gr
            Bad_gr 31 August 2013 22: 34
            +3
            Quote: bask
            You can link. What kind of equipment is installed on the line.

            About a year ago, I talked with a factory representative and wondered why the roof of the T-90 tower is welded rather than stamped, and if there is no press, why they won’t buy it. They answered that it makes no sense to invest in the modernization of the T-90 line, but they are purchasing and installing the line for the production of Armata. The conversation was on the site Khlopotov, or rather I will not say.
            By the way, the plant acquired a powerful press, but I don’t know, it will be used for the production of only civilian products (wagons) or the same for the military.
            1. bask
              bask 31 August 2013 22: 46
              +2
              Quote: Bad_gr
              By the way, the plant acquired a powerful press, but I don’t know, it will be used for the production of only civilian products (wagons) or the same for the military.

              Understood thanks hi That the equipment is purchased it pleases.
              I am a little familiar with the production technology of wagons (tanks), a press for making tanks should be mandatory. Otherwise, do not bend (stamp) the side surfaces. Another thing is that the thickness of the metal there depends on the type and aggressiveness of the fuel and chemical .. liquids from 10 to 30 mm. As far as I remember.
              Such a press for stamping armor is clearly not enough.
              Therefore, they bought a more powerful one.
              1. Bad_gr
                Bad_gr 31 August 2013 22: 55
                +1
                Quote: bask
                Therefore, they bought a more powerful one.

                Clear. Thanks for the information.
  • Lopatov
    Lopatov 31 August 2013 20: 57
    +3
    installation of equipment designed to include each main battle tank in a single automated rear support system: this greatly simplifies and speeds up the process of providing tank units with ammunition, fuel and other rear equipment.

    The right thing. It turns out that superior officers and rear will be able to have real-time information on ammunition and fueling for each tank.
    1. svp67
      svp67 31 August 2013 21: 10
      +2
      Quote: Spade
      The right thing.
      when the "Maneuver" ACS was developed in the USSR, we were ahead of the rest of the planet, if we had developed it further, we would already have systems no worse than Western ones ...
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 31 August 2013 22: 19
        +2
        So you need to catch up and overtake.

        I read the gene the other day on my blog. Skokov, that our probable partners spend 6-8 hours on planning their military operations. Ours is 15-16. And that is unacceptable.

        http://general-skokov.livejournal.com/2691.html
  • svp67
    svp67 1 September 2013 01: 49
    +2
    After all that you learn about "Leo2" the question arises - why is it not so important for the Germans in the question with the Indian "Anjun"?
    1. Aleks tv
      Aleks tv 1 September 2013 02: 53
      +2
      Quote: svp67
      After all that you learn about "Leo2" the question arises - and

      good
      No comments yet.

      Let the Indians ... uh-uh ... "try".

      Let's count ...
      But it's better not to pull the headset over the head ...
      Do not...
      wink
  • Vladimir 9322
    Vladimir 9322 1 September 2013 10: 44
    +1
    And in what climate and on what soil is this 70 ton Wunderwaffe used? By Russian chernozem and Belarusian forests? By autobahn only. What is its cost and how many hours do you need to make it? Under it, we need miracle-railway-platforms for the transfer, miracle bridges, miracle remrotes, miracle mud and many more miracles unknown to us. Either a Douro or Bert cannon is transported at several echelons, then a Mouse of 170 tons is molded for the factory yard. An eastern camping trip in 1941 did not teach the Germans anything.

    Fritz mumbles on tape that the main focus in the development of this tank was, as before, "the safety of the body and life of the crew and protection from RPGs." So said from RPG.
    1. il grand casino
      il grand casino 1 September 2013 19: 09
      +1
      In Germany, slush is much worse than ours ... the rain can pour continuously for several weeks. How to change the same))) And with the autobahns there is just a miss. Many bridges of bandwidth are not a fact that is enough)))
      1. Kir
        Kir 1 September 2013 19: 28
        +1
        And if you also remember how, after the creation of United Europe, the transit of Belgium’s roads was gouged, it’s not a fact that the German autobahns are not blown to pieces by the Leopards. And with regards to rains like World War II proved there have passed, and here Bogged down !!!
        1. il grand casino
          il grand casino 1 September 2013 21: 50
          0
          There they did not have to run so much, and if they had to, then on the training grounds)))
      2. Vladimir 9322
        Vladimir 9322 1 September 2013 22: 44
        0
        In Germany, by the way, sandy loam soil and dirt does not happen there "much worse than in Russia." There is no dust in the cities thanks to the climate and soil. I had to attend the exercises more than once practically at all GSVG training grounds at any time of the year, and I don’t remember that it rained there for weeks “without stopping”. Where does fantasy come from? Munchausen brought?
        1. il grand casino
          il grand casino 2 September 2013 14: 02
          0
          I’ve been there for 10 years, believe me not fantasies ... take a trip to Westphalia or to the north in spring or late autumn))) And you will see what kind of dirt there is and what rains))). Here near Berlin, the client is really cool ... not even a comparison
  • Ivanovich47
    Ivanovich47 1 September 2013 11: 56
    +2
    The opponent is serious. I believe that domestic developers of anti-tank weapons have already prepared or are preparing the killers of this monster. EIf you consider that the tank protection was developed against the RPG-7, which was developed at the beginning of the 60-th years, it’s interesting to know how the armor of this tank resists against more modern anti-tank weapons (tandem, etc.)
  • The comment was deleted.
  • DesToeR
    DesToeR 1 September 2013 13: 55
    +2
    Yes, his armor does not resist modern means in any way! With all due respect to Soviet weapons, the RPG7 can be considered a modern anti-tank weapon only against the Abrams with their 70mm unprotected side. Vytresanie all this dough from Leo2 buyers and nothing more. There is such a criterion in armament: cost-effectiveness. So she won't work here. It will be like with the Tiger in the Second World War - we are at war for one day - we are repairing / transporting / equipping for three days ... The tank is a lean and always ready to fight fighter, not an invulnerable leviathan. There the Jews improved with their Merkava to 70t, so what? In recent battles, it was used as a mobile pillbox like Mouse. And why? Because this is no longer a tank. So why ask all these "bells and whistles" on additional armor, if the tank works from the distances beyond ATGMs.
    1. il grand casino
      il grand casino 1 September 2013 14: 05
      +1
      Well, in the tank you need to see this very ATGM calculation. And a fighter with RPGs, especially in the city, is not an easily noticeable target. And he will work from beyond the bounds of distance just like self-propelled guns, and not like a tank.
  • DesToeR
    DesToeR 1 September 2013 15: 37
    0
    A tank is a complex weapon and like any other weapon it fights in conjunction with other types of troops: infantry, artillery, etc. If you make the car absolutely invulnerable from all types of anti-tank weapons, then such a machine will outgrow itself. Those. for its destruction, it will be beneficial or expedient to use other types of more expensive weapons. An example - aircraft carriers - are so expensive toys that it is advantageous to destroy them not with conventional torpedoes or missiles, but with an intercontinental ballistic missile with nuclear warheads. The same Mouse had almost complete protection from the barrel artillery, but it was already possible to get into it with a high probability of a free-falling bomb from a dive. An infantryman with an RPG that shoots into the tank’s side is a miss of the crew or infantry escort, not the tank’s designer. But if the tank modernized in this way doesn’t reach the battlefield, then this is primarily a blunder of the creators of such a machine. My opinion is that the tank will lose significantly in driving performance, especially in the initial dynamics of acceleration and patency.
  • vietnam7
    vietnam7 1 September 2013 16: 12
    +1
    Quote: Vladimir 9322
    Fritz mumbles on tape that the main focus in the development of this tank was, as before, "the safety of the body and life of the crew and protection from RPGs." So said from RPG.

    Thank you for transferring to the uneducated. the body in such a box is really preserved, how alive it will look :)
  • harrymur
    harrymur 1 September 2013 16: 40
    +2
    Germans and tanks, the same as Russians and tanks,
    Remember the battle of one tiger in Holland, he was able to paralyze the advance of a whole division of amers,
    they need to learn from them, all the more so since the Obt NATO platform is being built precisely at the German school of tank building,
    worthy reptile, there is something to learn, you can come to biathlon good
    1. Zhenya
      Zhenya 1 September 2013 18: 00
      +1
      harrymur M. Witmann 1944, not Holland, but France (Ville-Bocage like), well, he acted not only there were 2 or 3 tigers and they stopped the advance of the 7th British armored division, destroying 11 tanks and 13 armored vehicles.
      I decided to fix it.
      1. ramsi
        ramsi 1 September 2013 21: 44
        +1
        and biathlon is also far from the last resort
  • vietnam7
    vietnam7 1 September 2013 17: 58
    +1
    Quote: Marrying
    vladkavkaz
    1. Once again I tell you, there was no feat - it was a collective myth for raising morale at a critical moment for the country. (There were 2 companies on this site, not 28 people)
    2. The T-70 unfortunately doesn’t have a lot of chances to hit the T-4, the reason is the barrel length is very small, which means that the penetration force at a great distance is again not enough to break through the armor, but the T-4 is enough to get into the T-70 to stop and his range for defeating the t-70 is much higher.
    3. I agree that it was forbidden to enter the open battle with the Isami, since its 122 mm cannon quite confidently hit all existing tanks. True, our command did not always correctly manage them and send them to the city without infantry cover, which was fatal for the Ises.
    I read the books of "historians", a real fight refutes a lot of "can or can not", If the head is on the shoulders, the arms are also growing closer to the shoulders and the experience is given to gain, then 70 will fight with the panzer.
    1. Zhenya
      Zhenya 1 September 2013 18: 02
      +1
      vietnam7 Forgive me, of course, but I think you beat WoT.
    2. Kars
      Kars 1 September 2013 18: 21
      +1
      Quote: vietnam7
      If the head is on the shoulders, the hands are also growing closer to the shoulders and the experience is gained, then 70 will fight with panzers

      Just do not forget the luck.
  • vietnam7
    vietnam7 1 September 2013 18: 09
    +1
    where does wot go? I say that in realities everything can be done, t70 beats a panzer, 80 paratroopers are stopped by several hundred spirits, a dushman with a berdanka knocks down an Apache, etc. It’s not to sit at the laptop to recount tth and make conclusions, could break or couldn’t.
  • Bugor
    Bugor 1 September 2013 20: 38
    +1
    Guys, explain to me wretched: here the tank defense reacts to laser irradiation for 0, a few seconds. This ink cloud shoots. And how many such shootings can be made?
    I just imagine the situation: some Taliban are sitting in the ruins and they are pecking with laser pointers for children on the tank from all sides. Moreover, it is not necessary that a person with a pointer is sitting, a fairly simple device. Will the tank begin to hide from this radiation or not? Or then some citizen comes out with a rocket on his shoulder and shoots the eggs of the tank?
    1. Kars
      Kars 1 September 2013 20: 53
      +1
      Quote: Bugor
      during 0, a few seconds. This ink cloud shoots. And how many such shootings can be made?

      10-12 pieces, depending on how many blocks of smoke grenades. But you still have to forget that in addition to placing a smoke curtain, the tank’s tower unfolds toward radiation, and shots are fired from both the main gun and machine guns.
      Quote: Bugor
      pounding children's laser pointers on the tank from all sides

      Most likely, the laser detection units will be able to cure the laser pointer from more powerful laser guidance systems.
      1. Lopatov
        Lopatov 1 September 2013 21: 24
        +1
        Quote: Kars
        But nestoys still forget that in addition to staging a smoke screen

        As far as I understand, the Germans have more than just a "smoke screen". Due to the addition of synthetic fibers to the aerosol cloud, it becomes impervious to thermal imagers and radar equipment.
        1. Kars
          Kars 1 September 2013 21: 31
          +1
          Quote: Spade
          By adding to ae

          I mean this when I mention the smoke screen in the context of this article.
          1. Lopatov
            Lopatov 1 September 2013 21: 38
            0
            I mean, the Germans seem to have these smokestacks that play a more important role than simply shutting down from laser-guided munitions.
            And what else is interesting to me: what or who gives the command for their application? There are no separate laser detection sensors. They, it turns out, the SAS system does this.
            1. ramsi
              ramsi 1 September 2013 22: 21
              0
              the Korean smokescreen was impressive, only it should be installed not symmetrically from the center - to the sides, but asymmetrically: from the center - to the right, to the left - somehow
      2. Bugor
        Bugor 2 September 2013 23: 11
        0
        Quote: Kars
        But it’s still unfortunate to forget that in addition to setting a smoke screen, the tank’s tower unfolds toward radiation, and shots are fired from both the main gun and machine guns.

        So I say: it is not necessary that people sit there with this "pointer", a simple device is enough ... Let it (the tank) turn its trunk to the right, and it flies to the left ... It turns out almost from behind into the tower ...
        Quote: Kars
        Most likely, the laser detection units will be able to cure the laser pointer from more powerful laser guidance systems.

        After all, you can make power adjustment of the same GOS. And it will not be distinguished. Nevertheless, it’s interesting how this figovina determines that they were going to shoot at it, and not the boys indulge ... :)
  • albanech
    albanech 2 September 2013 15: 26
    0
    Painfully similar to "ABRAMS"! Everyone copies, but themselves ...! Pshyk and that's it! am
    1. Massik
      Massik 3 September 2013 10: 00
      +1
      There are only two schools of tank building - German and Russian, and everything else that they give out as a breakthrough in the Nth state is only their derivatives ...
  • Litvin from Grodno
    Litvin from Grodno 24 September 2014 02: 51
    0
    My friends, what are you talking and arguing about ?! I am a tanker myself with over 25 years of experience. He chose the "profession" in the footsteps of his grandfather, a tanker who fought from 1942 to 1944. All our tanks mod. 1930-1945 in all weight categories in reality were not such shit as English, French or American relatives. The British, who invented the tank, made "gasoline lighters" - these are the words of the British themselves, adopted by the "Germans" of the clever Rommel back in Libya. Those. themselves recognized their products as "gov ... om". This situation developed until 1945 and even today their tanks are iron carts in all respects. Crusaders-church-chiming-chrome - this is all the "death of tankers" (English and ours: Lend-Lease).
    Like them and the French - raised by illiterate scribblers, including ours, to the rank of such invincible "hammers" for Panzer 3 and 4 - "Samoa". This tank could only have been invented by "dumb engineers ...".
    Our tanks for 1941 were superior to the German ones in terms of armor and shell penetration in all categories. There are detailed, literate articles by our military historians (both Soviet and Russian) where everything is described from a technical point of view. BUT, THERE IS an important BUT. The tank is a weapon of war, not a target shooting range. And here we are in complete "... ope" in comparison with the Germans. Those. briefly - "Man controls a tank, not a tank man". For 1941-1943, in such important parameters of tank battle as: interaction with other types of troops (we have a fat "-" in comparison with the Germans), training of crews (we have a fat "-" in comparison with the Germans), the quality of material services and the qualifications of the technical staff (we have a bold "-" compared to the Germans), the quality and design of fire control and surveillance systems (we have a bold "-" compared to the Germans), the quality of communication (we have a bold "-" compared to the Germans ). Therefore, tank losses of 1 to 4 (rounded up) between 1941 and 1944 are not surprising. And most importantly, most of our vaunted T-34s were burned not by the Tigers and Panthers, but by ordinary soldiers of the war: Panzer-3, Panzer-4, and Shtug-3. And this despite the fact that 35 thousand destroyed T-34s (even without taking into account other numerous T-26, Bt 5-7, T-28, KV) is more than the entire production of German tanks of all types in 1934-1945. What can we talk about? How many lives of our tankers were put on the altar of victory for a stupid thing, for example, due to the lack of a penny commander's cupola on the T-34 (extremely poor visibility), or a hatch on the frontal armor plate, or an unsuccessful location of fuel tanks (when, when armor and a tank were penetrated, for a diffuse (volumetric) explosion of diesel fuel, it pulled out !!!! frontal armor plate, moreover, the tank did not even catch fire and did not detonate ammunition), or useless optics - this is generally a separate topic, or the lack of elementary communication means in the tank, not to mention the radio. And such "little things" completely nullified the advantage in armor and shells of our tanks over German tanks.
    As for the "Tigers" and "Panthers", these were in many ways unique constructions, as if our "scribblers" or "English-American roosters" did not want to discredit them, copying the "heresy" from book to book. I know one of our "writers" whose books are in stores. Familiar in a good way. It turns out that he did not even serve in the army, and the tank topic for him is "just a commercial project" in demand by the consumer. Repeatedly reviewed his works, using technical facts, and not the "memories" of some veterans (no offense is said), who in one battle from 45 to 5-10 "Tigers" were felled.
  • Litvin from Grodno
    Litvin from Grodno 24 September 2014 02: 52
    0
    CONTINUED: And when we started using a concrete historical method and analyzed a specific battle, it turned out that "on a given sector of the Soviet-German front of a certain number of local battles were fought. The gunners of the N regiment destroyed so many enemy tanks with well-aimed fire." ... We took German reports (detailed, recorded with German pedantry) in the original, translated and turned out to be there and at the same time: destroyed --- enemy tanks, of which 2 KV-1, 27 T-34 (3 evacuated for repair), 7 T -26, 3 Bt-7 (1 evacuated for repair), 3 - not identified ......, .... artillery pieces ..... Our losses: completely destroyed: 4 T-4 (1 commander) , 5 T-3, 2 T-38, evacuated for repair .... "The most interesting thing further - on this front section, the Germans had no trace of" Tigers "at the time, where they were" riveted "in a pile by our gunners. They were not there IN-GENERAL. That's how the myths are written. But in fact, the truth was tragic - the Germans released only 1354 "Tigers" ("first"). This is a minuscule for a global war. But where they actually appeared even in small numbers, then they smashed both us and the Americans “to smithereens.” If they riveted the “Tigers” well, at least 10 thousand, they would have won the war for sure. With some of its shortcomings, the tank was excellent - powerful armor, great second gun (the best in the world at that time), excellent optics and guidance system allowed the "Tiger" to start shooting our T-34 tanks from 2 km away. My grandfather used to say: "The German saw us in his optics at a glance 3 miles away and beat us like partridges." Shell "Tiger" for 2 km. even the ricocheting knocked out pieces of armor inside the T-34, killing and crippling the crew. From a distance of 1,5 km. frontal armor was guaranteed to penetrate. From a distance of 1 km. the projectile pierced the T-34 from the frontal armor to the stern sheet. It lagged little behind the "Tiger" and "Pantrera", which lost the title of "best tank of the Second World War" due to an insufficiently reliable engine. I am a patriot of my weapons, but I have to admit that historically the facts of the confrontation between our and German tank forces are all against us and our allies. All the "records" are on the side of the Germans - the number of enemy tanks destroyed in one battle, in one hour, in the career of a particular tanker, etc. And the merit of these German records in the aggregate of technically advanced tanks and competent crews. There is no primary criterion, either "iron" or "man". The primary thing here is a "tank with a crew". And they outplayed us both in Senno, and near Dubno, and near Krsk and near Balaton ... This is a fact. On average, 1 in 4 ...
    1. Maksimov
      Maksimov 2 June 2020 21: 40
      0
      That is all clear. Only for all the records we won, not the Germans. Probably, the essence of war is not in measuring n ... mi, i.e. records, but real military successes. And real military men (both Soviet and German knew this). And those who wanted to measure records, created wunderwales, and raked in full function, regardless of the "records".
  • Maksimov
    Maksimov 2 June 2020 21: 35
    0
    Quote: Marrying
    vladkavkaz
    1. Once again I tell you, there was no feat - it was a collective myth for raising morale at a critical moment for the country. (There were 2 companies on this site, not 28 people)
    2. The T-70 unfortunately doesn’t have a lot of chances to hit the T-4, the reason is the barrel length is very small, which means that the penetration force at a great distance is again not enough to break through the armor, but the T-4 is enough to get into the T-70 to stop and his range for defeating the t-70 is much higher.
    3. I agree that it was forbidden to enter the open battle with the Isami, since its 122 mm cannon quite confidently hit all existing tanks. True, our command did not always correctly manage them and send them to the city without infantry cover, which was fatal for the Ises.

    That is, do you believe in the memoirs of German "tank aces" (which are not documented), do not hesitate to call them aces and do not call them a myth, but call the feat of Soviet infantrymen a myth? Think for yourself - who are you after that? Even if there were a thousand of Panfilov's men against the tanks and they stopped the tanks, this is already a feat. If you don’t consider it a feat, come to Donbass, take 2 companies and go against at least one tank. You will tell later, crap, what a feat it is.