"Iveco" against "Tiger". Or how we lie

"Iveco" against "Tiger". Or how we lie



It would not hurt to buy weapons and military equipment (IWT):

1. Be clear about where and how the sample will be used. Is there any need for it at all?
2. There should be objective evaluation criteria and performance indicators for samples. How does the sample meet the highest requirements?
3. It is necessary to understand that the purchase of this type of weapon comes from countries that define the Russian Federation as a potential adversary. Will all this technology stop working at hour X, as it was with the "western" air defense complexes in Iraq in 1991?
4. Always and everywhere priority is given to the domestic manufacturer. Imports are purchased until production of the closest analogue is established.

This is how it is sold technique, made in the Russian Federation, all over the world. For some reason, we prefer to buy with our own "specifics."

If it is possible to recognize the inability of the Russian Federation to build modern universal ships (although no one has justified the need for the Mistral), then it’s impossible to recognize the fact that we cannot design and produce modern wheeled armored vehicles.

Why was Iveco LMV M65 chosen, although there is a better technique, for example Dingo2 and Eagle lV? - No answer.

Tales that produce "Iveco" will be with us, we have already heard. There will be an assembly type at the Kamaz facilities, taking into account the fact that import bridges, boxes, engines are starting to be put on the Kamaz too - the situation looks generally sad.

Comfort

An "Iveco" type is capable of carrying an 5 person. The layout of the 2 + 3 in two rows across the car. The driver and the commander are practically (first row) isolated by a partition from the struts (which can only be removed in a peaceful environment and having enough time + the necessary tool). Those. pull the driver in case of problems with him is only possible outside. In the back row closely, in connection with what a fully equipped soldiers will not be able to go in the car.

Firing through the hatch is possible only with one soldier from the second row, or only with a commander when using weapons with remote control. On the "Tigre" is also possible firing through the hatch by two soldiers in different directions. The main complex includes 30-mm. Grenade + 12,7-mm machine gun. Installing remotely controlled weapons is not a problem, just money, come on :)

Reloading weapons in Iveco, under enemy fire, it is almost impossible due to the placement of ammunition (including personal weapons) ... on the roof of a car and in an unarmored aft compartment. Fire from personal weapons is impossible, because no loopholes and impossible to open the windows. On the "Tigre" there are loopholes. Regarding the low efficiency of fire from them - any return fire makes the enemy nervous and is it commensurate to shoot, say, 50 horns to AK with the loss of a car worth 5 million rubles?

Evacuation in the "Iveco" from the second row is only possible left or right, as well as through the hatch. From the first row the driver is evacuated only to the left, the commander only to the right. This means that when overturning on one of the sides, one soldier will remain in the car and will not be able to get out until a crane or a car with a powerful winch comes to the rescue. The distance in the Iveco between the inter-row struts and the second row of seats is small, which poses a threat ... leg fractures of soldiers sitting in the second row when driving cars on rough terrain, heavy braking or an accident.

Salon "Tiger" is a one-volume armored capsule, allows you to transport 6 people under the scheme 2 + 2 + 2. Any soldier from the crew can take the driver’s seat without leaving the vehicle. Through the hatch, two soldiers can fire at the same time in two different directions. Others can shoot practically in all directions, including the stern, from any kind of personal weapon, including rifle grenade launchers. Placed in the troop compartment 4-m soldiers in full gear more than spacious and comfortable.

Due to the limited reserved volume, Iveco does not allow it to be used as a KSHM, special electronic warfare machine, an armored medical vehicle, etc. More comfortable chairs in "Iveco" are explained simply :) The customer of "Tigers" - Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, wanted the chairs in them simpler ... Using "Iveco" will increase disunification in the Russian Armed Forces, make it difficult to solve supply issues and put their operation directly dependent on supplies s / h and other materials from NATO countries.

Security

The assessment of the security level of Iveco LMV M65, carried out by experts through external examination and examination of the available documentation, raises great doubts about its stated protective properties —3 level of protection according to STANAG 4569 (not to mention that its 6a is protected according to GOST R 50963-96) . And that's why. Armored glass has a thickness of no more (!) 60 mm, when the domestic armored glass for 6 protection class has a thickness of about (!) 70mm. At the same time all over the world it is recognized that the armored glass produced by the Russian Federation is by far the most durable and usually 1,2-1,5 times thinner than imported samples, with the same ballistic stability.

The "Iveco" "Armored capsule" is a fiction, there is a kind of pipe-type structure on which ceramic and steel panels are mounted with fasteners. Armor is a pottery made in Germany, which in Italy is connected to a substrate of high-strength polyethylene made in Holland.

The technology of production of this armor did not receive even the United States, so who decided that it will sell us? The beauty of the type is that such armor is 40% lighter than armor steel, but also much more expensive. In the appendage to everything, the substrate at low temperatures transforms the ceramic panels into a coating that splits when a bullet hits.

Domestic ceramic armor is made on a substrate of aluminum, comes out about 10-15% heavier, but more reliable and in the cold armor works. The joints between the ceramic panels in "Iveco" are covered with just steel armor, the resistance of which is also in doubt. Italians parry quickly: "... our technical documentation allows up to 15% of weakened areas of surface area." Those. it turns out that the 2-3 meter square "armored capsules"

"Iveco" is not protected!

In the Russian Federation, GOST does not allow weakened zones on armored vehicles relating to military equipment. For collectors it is possible, for the army, it is impossible!
If the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation took care of the lives of the soldiers, would it be easier to order panels based on aramid thread? Such a panel is lighter than ceramic (1m.kv. Slightly more than 4kg, against only 20 kg of one polyethylene substrate without ceramics.), Provides good ballistic protection, fire safety and noise insulation. For such a package you need at least 4 kg of such thread, and its price is 14000 rub . per kg, imported kevlar and tvaron cheaper, but thicker and heavier.

A few words about the standards.

When determining compliance with the resistance of protection in the West, it is considered that it complies with the stated standard, if 50 (!) Percent of the fired bullets (shells, missiles, etc.) plus one is not pierced. In other words, if you shoot a B-32 bullet with 100 and more than meters from the SVD with Iveco, and from the 4 store that was shot, the bullets pierce the 4 crew members from the 5, it’s all the same, by Italian standards, to protect the machine corresponds to the norm! According to the State Standards of the Russian Federation is unacceptable! In our country, the formation of a convexity on the inside with a micro crack, through which the kerosene is leaking (and does not flow!), Is considered non-penetration. And if this happens at least after one hit from 100, the protection will not meet the norm.

"Tiger" is specifically designed to ensure 100% protection, so the design is precisely the armored capsule "Tiger" was created taking into account these requirements. Special technical solutions in difficult places (hinges, door locks, etc.) forced us to increase the mass of the car by more than 200kg. Engineers "Iveco" on this save ...

Realizing the significant difference in the cost of steel armor and ceramics with a non-substrate, not in favor of the latter (several thousand rubles against 2000 euro per square meter) and realizing the absence of technology, equipment and specialists in repairing combat damage to ceramic armor in the Defense Ministry and other agencies ( and after 2-x, the maximum 3-x bullets hit in the ceramic armored panel, you need to change it), our experts made the "Tiger" of high-strength armored steel.

The military version of the "Tiger" GAZ-233014 is made according to the 3-y protection class in accordance with GOST 50963-96 (or according to the 1 level of STANAG 4569). inferior to the level of protection "Iveco". BUT! As it turned out, the 3 class of protection for the "Tiger" determined in the TK precisely the RF Ministry of Defense! For example, for the Ministry of the Interior "Tigers" GAZ-233036 are delivered made according to 5 class GOST (2-th level STANAG).
Recently it became known that our specialists have developed a new armor steel capable of providing the 6 crew almost the same thickness and mass of the Tiger with a GOST standard ballistic protection crew (not the STANAG 3 level with Italian simplifications). Technologically and much cheaper than ceramics, and most importantly, reliable!

Mobility.

On the website of the MK was a video recording of tests for winter patency in the Bronnitsy near Moscow. There you can clearly see how the Iveco, having driven 10-15 meters through the snow, dug in and got up in it. "Tiger" was driving like a good dirt road. After this, the comparative tests stopped. Acts of testing "Iveco" were issued with a positive (?!) Result for it, although the plan was to extend the tests until the autumn of 2010. As the Russian media later reported, in June 2010. By order of the Russian Defense Ministry "Iveco" (more precisely, "trash") was adopted by the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation. Suspension "Tiger" borrowed from the battle-proven BTR-80. "Iveco" also turned into a military vehicle from a civilian SUV.

"Iveco" is supplied with 3-hlitrovym diesel engine with power 190 hp and torque 456Hm. Install a more powerful engine because of the density of the layout is not possible. Domestic "Tigers" while supplied with American diesel "Cummings" 5,9l. 205l.s and 705Hm. There is an option with a diesel in 420l.s. It is being tested "Tiger" with a fully domestic diesel engine in 240l.s. It was the American diesel engine that didn’t allow the Tigger to become a full-fledged combat unit in the Russian army for a long time. According to the requirements of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, all weapons and military equipment must consist of domestic components. Italy has already become a subject of the Russian Federation !? Nevertheless, a completely foreign car is accepted for the supply of the RF Armed Forces. How is this possible!?

According to the stated Italian characteristics, "Iveco" retains the functionality from -32С to + 49С. Domestic specialists should provide the operational range from -50С to + 50С. This is a standard requirement for all weapons and military equipment in our aircraft. There is nothing new here. However, meeting these requirements costs considerable time and money. Why then is a foreign model accepted for service of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation that does not meet these requirements as well ?!

Price.

Tiger costs about 5 mln. Rub. for the car. The preliminary cost of Iveco LMV M65 when organizing an assembly will be approximately ... 20-23 million rubles per car !. We don’t have to talk about the localization of production of "Iveco", since it has not only Italian components: international armor, a box - German ZF, a remotely controlled weapon module - Norwegian, etc.
Will these NATO countries sell us their technology? - It is doubtful to say the least. You can still write a lot and in detail about this, but it is clear that "Iveco" does not meet the requirements and "ruin" "Tiger" for the sake of "Iveco" is at least wrecking. "Tigers" are already serving almost the entire territory of the Russian Federation, and, according to OOO "VPK", are used in 10 countries around the world - in Europe, Asia, the Middle East and Latin America. It is known from media reports that the Tigers have already mastered the territory of China, Israel, Jordan and Brazil, and the possibility of organizing an assembly in Azerbaijan is being discussed. The cost of "Iveco" is in 3 times more than domestic counterparts, with equal or inferior indicators.

It is easy to conclude from the foregoing that the adoption and purchase of Iveco for the Russian Armed Forces is inexpedient and unjustified. Nevertheless, in accordance with the draft state armaments program, it is planned to purchase for the needs of the RF Armed Forces 1775 data of armored vehicles for a total amount of 30 billion rubles. The purchase of a similar number of modified Tigers would have cost 20 billion rubles less and would have provided jobs for thousands of Russian citizens, and not Italian ones.

Against the background, and even if you remember history with Mistral, Israeli drone vehicles, installation of NATO weapons on ships of the Navy, purchase in Germany of the production technology of some armor, field camps, kitchens (!) it all looks like .... Decide what it looks like ... We have that even kitchens, diesel generators, shower cabins, etc., are not capable of producing industry?
"Thank you" to you (you know who) for it!
GAZ Tiger vs Iveco LMV

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62 comments
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  1. Mark
    Mark 4 July 2011 10: 28 New
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    Sad article, funny video.
    With all the indisputable facts, the advantages of our armored car, it seems to me, the paid lobby in our military procurement bodies will not give up its idea. They dick the Motherland (they don’t have such a concept), the main thing is to fill the moshna and topple over the hill. I actually think that these claimed 1775 units. IVECO purchased for special units of the Moscow Region. They are absolutely unsuitable for motorized rifles, even based on the organizational and staff structure of the department. The author was shy to openly thank, I will allow myself such a little. Thanks to Serdyukov A.E. and Makarov N.E.
  2. Fantom75100
    Fantom75100 4 July 2011 11: 18 New
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    And so in almost any field.
  3. Fedya
    Fedya 4 July 2011 14: 10 New
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    Do not whine! - This is politics .. The issue of purchasing iVEK was raised only for cooperation with the Italians in high-tech areas, engines, armor, etc. Tigers will be bought in parallel ...
    1. Krylovets2000 (HVVKU) 29 July 2011 11: 30 New
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      and these corrupt troops are in battle ??? No wonder 1 Chechen pros * ali !!!! I am afraid of such a statehood !!!!
  4. Uhalus 4 July 2011 15: 16 New
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    You are naive, comrade commentators. They will not buy our "Tigers". It is planned to replace them with "Iveco" _p_o_l_n_o_s_t_y_yu_. This is betrayal, treason. Sold out.
    Fedya, what kind of cooperation ?! We are already at the level of a cheap colony ... So the Italians gave us something! And secondly, it’s easier to cn .... to milk (industrial espionage for what?) And reproduce, if we can’t come up with our own.
    1. Kazak_30
      Kazak_30 16 January 2012 13: 34 New
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      Where does this information come from? share it!
  5. smirnyagin
    smirnyagin 4 July 2011 17: 14 New
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    It is interesting, but who in general specifically decides what is best for us, they asked us, taxpayers?
  6. Fedya
    Fedya 4 July 2011 18: 02 New
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    Tigers will purchase in parallel. !!! (We learn the mat part) Gos.obor.orz on of. the ministry’s website ... Garbage is also interested, but there are also new modifications, although I’m giving in to the EECs for protection ... That’s why the screams are all gone, they’re giving up their homeland with GavNovm! ! ! Leave this for anti-Putin sites which is this crying
    1. Kazak_30
      Kazak_30 16 January 2012 13: 35 New
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      Quote: Fedya
      Trash is also interested

      A friend in the Novosibirsk OMON serves so 5 TIGERS came to them and will still be purchasing.
  7. Ogi
    Ogi 4 July 2011 18: 23 New
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    Eta Russian car is bad, ETA GAZ 53 ..... nothing costs ... IVECO eta quality of caroseries and motorasmi!
  8. datur 4 July 2011 19: 00 New
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    Ogi what the hell are you talking about--- it’s immediately obvious that the specialist is working out caroseries and motorasmi! where are the paws.
    1. datur 4 July 2011 23: 09 New
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      I was thinking, maybe you are a gogi from georgetown ????
  9. Victor 4 July 2011 20: 24 New
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    We’ll wait and see what happens. The wait is not long. Yes, I forgot to say ............ Augie, I went to w ..... poo! Sorry friends, could not resist.
    1. svvaulsh
      svvaulsh 29 July 2011 11: 43 New
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      Well ..... very small, he needs to go to a normal school, learn to write words correctly. And then in w ....!
  10. slan
    slan 4 July 2011 20: 30 New
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    If we were still talking about German technology, let alone Fiat. One must either be an idiot or a swindler to buy equipment from Italians.
    1. Kazak_30
      Kazak_30 16 January 2012 13: 38 New
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      When they planned to build their auto industry, they thought who would build it, there was an offer from Volkswagen, but they were Germans (former enemies) and therefore began to work with Fiat. And so how could it be if we had not built a plant for us?
  11. frame5 4 July 2011 21: 20 New
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    Another hysteria.
    Iveco, these are purchased in the amount of about four pieces + trial batch, which will be sent for analysis to the factories.
    The whining about the absence of loopholes frankly amused.
    This tiger, in fact, is not much different from a hammer. Iveco is much more technologically advanced; moreover, Italy has always been famous for the quality of production. We now desperately need new technologies and buying and adopting other people's solutions is now the most optimal option.
    1. Kazak_30
      Kazak_30 16 January 2012 13: 40 New
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      We need technology, electronics, etc. Why do you think we are buying a French outfit for soldiers ?!
  12. The Soviet
    The Soviet 4 July 2011 21: 34 New
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    No frame5, Italians can sing songs, make excellent clothes and make sports cars, but in the military industry they are complete amateurs.
    1. frame5 4 July 2011 21: 35 New
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      What are you ?!
      1. slan
        slan 4 July 2011 21: 43 New
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        Do you have Alfaromeo? Sorry..
    2. slan
      slan 4 July 2011 21: 42 New
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      Forgotten except about sandals and pasta.
      1. frame5 4 July 2011 21: 43 New
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        And Andriano Cerlitano.
        1. DAGESTAN333 4 July 2011 23: 52 New
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          Guys, you can’t put cons frame5u just because he appears on the forum ... sad
          1. frame5 5 July 2011 04: 27 New
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            Never mind.
            Children decided that I was "Russophobe".
          2. sancho 8 July 2011 11: 32 New
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            It is necessary and possible! Not .... x ... er Gavnososam here to do! Let in their Pindos write what they want! Enough already Perdyukov ... who will soon buy armored vehicles from furniture factories. This is for people's denyuzhki. And, in the cars our friends, children, grandchildren will ride. And, their safety directly depends on these machines. So minus, minus all fram5, OGI, etc.
            1. frame5 10 July 2011 14: 51 New
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              Fool.
            2. Alexey Prikazchikov
              Alexey Prikazchikov 16 October 2011 08: 13 New
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              Dalboeb you're a guy
  13. Rustam 4 July 2011 22: 21 New
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    news quotation-In 2009, our defense industry failed the exam. The Ministry of Defense quite categorically announced that it does not consider domestic manufacturers of automotive equipment as the only suppliers, and appealed to foreigners. The appearance of Israeli Zibar jeeps, Italian Iveco (the presented specimen with the inscription Lynx is simply ideal) scared our industrialists seriously - and now they brought to Bronnitsy the best, most promising, created, which is important, on their own initiative initiative.

    yes, for the fact that the comrades from the military-industrial complex started moving, you can thank the Italian, the first 10 cars from Italy will come soon and you can already see and compare
  14. Rustam 4 July 2011 22: 31 New
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    IVECO GIVED A JETTING GIVEN AN IMPULSE TO THE DEVELOPMENT OF OUR MIC - after all, just recently one of the managers of the military industrial complex said, EVERYTHING IS EQUAL TO BUY AND AT THE PRICE WHICH WE WILL SAY TO YOU, and you can supply non-condition and marriage and it's okay not to fight them !!!!!
    and here at once TIGER-M AND A WOLF And a four-door tiger with 6a protection and a scorpion and mine seats and additional mine protection (before that everything was fine, there were no competitors) marriage
    and what kind of hype in the press went
    An example when a mine of defense bought 5000 sniper rifles from England - to replace the SVD I asked a friend from the airborne well, how-the best answer (after that Izhmash immediately bought high-tech barrel processing machines
    )
    -or when the other chelas I asked why he and his guys go in American belleville and not ours — the answer is let who make our shoes and walk in it (in Ossetia in 2008, American bots were the main trophy for our soldiers) —interesting why? ?? but what about our manufacturer, the faces are worn only by Italian crispy, from another friend in the unit only in adidas gsg2

    -I DO NOT AGAINST OUR SAMPLES-do it qualitatively and there are no problems, but you don’t need to deliver non-standard and outdated weapons at unbelievable prices, for example, the T-90a tank in 2007 cost 42 million and ALREADY IN 2011 103 MILLION RUBLES — there is no competition right (the Omsk tank was buried) and you can break the price
    1. PSih2097 10 July 2011 21: 47 New
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      I don’t know where you got the data about the tiger, I bought myself this:

      honestly, not a single gripe, except for the consumption of diesel fuel and registration ...

      this is more interesting:
      In addition, for the first time, more than 10 types of foreign-made small arms will be adopted. We are talking about several types of Glock pistols, pistols from Ceska Zbrojovka, Heckler & Koch and Walther, a number of sniper rifles from companies such as Sako, AWP, Styer, as well as various types and modifications of the famous Heckler & Koch submachine guns.

      you might think they don’t know how to do it ...
      1. Superduck
        Superduck 11 July 2011 15: 37 New
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        Some things historically do better than ours. For a commando, for example, patriotism on this subject before the excuse, sorry, he should work with this technique and not show at exhibitions.
        1. Krylovets2000 (HVVKU) 29 July 2011 11: 38 New
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          SW SuperDuck, did you read the article? That is about the military and the bulk purchase. For specials, you can buy units (tens) of the best samples. And for the troops you have to do it yourself! Schaub at the "inopportune moment" did not stop and did not break. Heard that in one of the countries where Pindos on bayonets introduced dermocracy at once, many PCs failed ?? For example, I believe that. And I would not want to get such a bummer in the database.
      2. Krylovets2000 (HVVKU) 29 July 2011 11: 34 New
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        Ha! I like!! And cooler THEM Hamera! (The guys in the troops (in Ukraine they were given Pindos) about the Hamers extremely negatively. The road, and unarmored tries ...)
      3. svvaulsh
        svvaulsh 29 July 2011 11: 47 New
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        Let me ride!
    2. svvaulsh
      svvaulsh 29 July 2011 11: 51 New
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      It’s good if you’re right, and this is just an impetus for the development of our defense industry. And if someone did get a kickback .....?
      1. Kazak_30
        Kazak_30 16 January 2012 13: 45 New
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        Are you like little ... By God ... We have everything and everywhere on the rollbacks !!!! And in the army and in civilian life, you don’t need to say that it was only now and in Soviet times, it was just the same scope too!
    3. WADIM
      WADIM 13 August 2011 06: 21 New
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      (after that Izhmash immediately bought high-tech machines for processing trunks) can you throw a link? how do you know everything?
  15. dob19
    dob19 4 July 2011 22: 34 New
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    I can’t understand how we live so richly, and we don’t even notice it ourselves.
    Suppose we remove the technical nuances, and leave the price, we get 5 times more, and for what, for me .. I? Voros, who oversees these issues, and how many of 20-23 ml. rollback, judging by half prices
    1. Krylovets2000 (HVVKU) 29 July 2011 11: 41 New
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      ... yes, that person who didn’t allow this on your avatar!
  16. uranium
    uranium 4 July 2011 23: 33 New
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    Here is an article about Tiger all + and -

    http://topwar.ru/5053-specialnaya-policeyskaya-mashina-spm-1.html

    everyone will make a conclusion himself !!!
    1. WADIM
      WADIM 13 August 2011 06: 30 New
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      an interesting article, I read it for a long time, I also wanted to throw it off again overexcited ... so that I could enlighten, but could not find ...

      Sometimes wet forty-fifty centimeter snow was not too tough for the Tiger ....

      Thank God that this embarrassment (pushing) occurred in a deserted area. It happened in the village, I would be very ashamed.

      Now and then the rear doors themselves opened ...

      At the first exit for the operation, turn signals failed. When driving on the highway, the car easily gave out 120 km / h, scaring away overtaken cars. However, during braking, the euphoria of flight was replaced by fear due to the intense wagging of the machine due to the incorrect operation of the braking system.

      When driving on a mountain serpentine, it turned out that the “bobik” practically “dies”. Despite 205 horsepower and turbocharging, an iron basin with bolts and nuts weighing eight tons was too heavy for an American diesel .........

      WHO IS THERE FOR THE TIGER? ......

      The arrow of medium height to cope with the machine gun turret will be difficult (it is located above shoulder level). Fortunately, our machine gunner is grenadier and it is not necessary for him to stand on a stool. The machine gun for the machine gun gave a surprise in the form of the absence of a single stud for fixing the cartridge box holder.

      Naturally, when a car entered the division, a traditional check for bullet resistance was made.

      The distance is five meters. Weapons - AK74M and standard cartridge PP (7H10). The bullet pierced the board, the core of the bullet pierced the ballistic package and made a dent on the rear door trim.

      The presence of only the third class of protection helps little to the crew of the car when firing from Kalashnikov assault rifles with heat-strengthened core, the presence of which is not uncommon in the arsenal of any “forest brothers” who prefer to do their dirty work in the city. Not happy and the lack of booking hood. A few bullets in the engine compartment is enough to turn the car into a pedestal.

      The presence in the roof of the hatch also does not save - too easy target for attackers. In the absence of any protective shields.
  17. Eric
    Eric 4 July 2011 23: 35 New
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    In terms of armor, I’ve said and will continue to say that CERAMICS is the BEST done in Russia, and if you also give money for development, then you can generally forget about competitors in this area!

    Damn the guys, we can’t buy over the hill ... It’s just impossible. You have to do your own. Remember, Mother Russia is rich in Kulibins.
    1. Superduck
      Superduck 11 July 2011 15: 40 New
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      Metal ceramics and RISC processors will not do kulibin. If you don’t do anything in Russia, you don’t have to yell that it’s what they don’t do in Russia, and it’s not what they don’t do, but buy technology or steal it. But of course, purchases on the foreign arms market should be an exception.
      1. Krylovets2000 (HVVKU) 29 July 2011 11: 43 New
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        I agree!
      2. Kazak_30
        Kazak_30 16 January 2012 13: 49 New
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        Like the Chinese ... I respect pi *** eyes. I can’t think of it myself. They did it and they don’t blow a whisker about all sorts of copyrights there. To the military, I think far in parallel with how the thing on which he fights got only to work and help to fight! IMHO
  18. datur 5 July 2011 00: 14 New
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    Eric, wash, Russia-Mother is rich in Kulibins .-- BUT ALREADY more with manila, boxes, and chichikovs.
    1. Eric
      Eric 5 July 2011 00: 33 New
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      +3
      This is all nonsense. I explain. If a person is told fifty times that he is a pig, he grunts (not to his personal account). I mean, if you impose on people what they are “deleted”, they will eventually become them. If you want to defeat the enemy, educate his children. The highest skill, to defeat the enemy not with weapons but without him, or with the weapon of the enemy. In general, the idea I think is quite clear. Sun Tzu was a wise man, however.
    2. Krylovets2000 (HVVKU) 29 July 2011 11: 47 New
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      Yes, everything is full, but ... The biggest problem is the cushioning of the majority, etching self-awareness, smirking people's self-esteem !! and then everything is deleted --.... what we see now.
  19. Imperialist
    Imperialist 5 July 2011 17: 05 New
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    Is it like Hour X ???

    What will Russia break through on its Iveco to Lamanche ???

    And I thought that we put on the Strategic Missile Forces there, it seems, they do without foreign products.

    But it still does not work to try to produce everything in Russia, and even let the comrade defeatists first switch to AvtoVAZ products and then begin to teach the army patriotism, they need to fight against militants and all kinds of rodents they need the best and most reliable.

    And the defeatist comrades do not even want to use Lada in order to skimp on a trip to the store, so start with yourself and then teach others.

    KAMAZ is sold different for civil KAMAZ; foreign components are used; I don’t know which KAMAZ and equipment are used by the MO, but until recently the American and Brazilian engines were generally on the Tigers, only recently they made the Tiger-M with a domestic engine, so only recently it became generally real domestic.

    In short, what you can buy, you need to buy, and personnel, time and money to spend on the development and production of what you can’t sell a cat, Strategic Rocket Forces, Air Defense, Air Force ....
  20. Yeah
    Yeah 5 July 2011 22: 37 New
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    I join uran completely, at first appreciate not the advertising squalor of the Tiger, and then whine.
  21. Ogi
    Ogi 5 July 2011 23: 33 New
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    Eta GAZ-ka "Tiger" = GAZ 53 obsolete technology ... with a new car series!

    http://vbox7.com/play:80522867
    1. PSih2097 10 July 2011 21: 50 New
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      a tiger is a mixture of Shishigi Bether and UAZ, first find out, then scream ...
      1. svvaulsh
        svvaulsh 29 July 2011 11: 57 New
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        Again this clever man showed up. Either a Bulgarian or a Pole.
  22. is
    is 6 July 2011 11: 01 New
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    And who of you went to the gas ????
    1. svvaulsh
      svvaulsh 29 July 2011 11: 58 New
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      Which?
  23. datur 6 July 2011 12: 00 New
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    is,
    karoseriya! fucking -you generally who.
  24. Sergei
    Sergei 9 July 2011 20: 41 New
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    +1
    Drive this power traitors and liquidators of our homeland
  25. Philip.
    Philip. 9 July 2011 23: 10 New
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    +1
    Alarming now, yes ...
    But, on the other hand, if you can get an “trophy” imported, and even a “language” - carriers of a technical school, documentation, technology (not only in terms of hardware and other things, but also organizational decisions, approach) for MONEY and not pay for BLOOD them - you need to use the chance.

    In addition, indeed - a good kick to many scammers.

    Well, in order to get the most, you need to blow your cheeks, promise the golden mountains (volumes) and, yes, you can ask for a rollback (in order to believe in "serious intentions")

    Although, you need to keep the process under control so that you don’t play too much ...
  26. figwam 10 July 2011 15: 12 New
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    +1
    Foreign shit is necessary only in small batches, for study, then do only your own.
  27. Owl
    Owl 13 October 2011 13: 28 New
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    The “Tiger” is capable of being a “police” car, when equipped with shields to crowd out the crowd and to enter the “dissection and squeeze” group into the crowd, the machine is poorly adapted for “police” work to “detain an armed criminal” (poor maneuverability; machine gun installation is unprotected; the absence of armored screens on the windshields and side windows, the declared bullet resistance of 7 hits is an occasion for the driver, after 2-3 bursts on the glass to think about the further implementation of the task and the review will be greatly deteriorated). Due to poor maneuverability, it is not suitable for the Army as a carrier of weapon systems, how KSHM for VV units is suitable, as a car convoy escort vehicle with a radio fuse suppression system, is suitable.
  28. kostya
    kostya 13 November 2011 19: 51 New
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    correctly, at first these bastards ruined production, because of which many high-class specialists went abroad, and now they are buying weapons abroad, like ours aren’t able to do it. but it’s not the fact that their weapons will not let you down at the right time