Iveco vs. Tiger. Or how they lie to us
It would not hurt to buy weapons and military equipment (IWT):
1. Be clear about where and how the sample will be used. Is there any need for it at all?
2. There should be objective evaluation criteria and performance indicators for samples. How does the sample meet the highest requirements?
3. It is necessary to understand that the purchase of this type of weapon comes from countries that define the Russian Federation as a potential adversary. Will all this technology stop working at hour X, as it was with the "western" air defense complexes in Iraq in 1991?
4. Always and everywhere priority is given to the domestic manufacturer. Imports are purchased until production of the closest analogue is established.
This is how it is sold technique, made in the Russian Federation, all over the world. For some reason, we prefer to buy with our own "specifics."
If it is possible to recognize the inability of the Russian Federation to build modern universal ships (although no one has justified the need for the Mistral), then it’s impossible to recognize the fact that we cannot design and produce modern wheeled armored vehicles.
Why was Iveco LMV M65 chosen, although there is a better technique, for example Dingo2 and Eagle lV? - No answer.
Tales that produce "Iveco" will be with us, we have already heard. There will be an assembly type at the Kamaz facilities, taking into account the fact that import bridges, boxes, engines are starting to be put on the Kamaz too - the situation looks generally sad.
Comfort
An "Iveco" type is capable of carrying an 5 person. The layout of the 2 + 3 in two rows across the car. The driver and the commander are practically (first row) isolated by a partition from the struts (which can only be removed in a peaceful environment and having enough time + the necessary tool). Those. pull the driver in case of problems with him is only possible outside. In the back row closely, in connection with what a fully equipped soldiers will not be able to go in the car.
Firing through the hatch is possible only with one soldier from the second row, or only with a commander when using weapons with remote control. On the "Tigre" is also possible firing through the hatch by two soldiers in different directions. The main complex includes 30-mm. Grenade + 12,7-mm machine gun. Installing remotely controlled weapons is not a problem, just money, come on :)
Reloading weapons in Iveco, under enemy fire, it is almost impossible due to the placement of ammunition (including personal weapons) ... on the roof of a car and in an unarmored aft compartment. Fire from personal weapons is impossible, because no loopholes and impossible to open the windows. On the "Tigre" there are loopholes. Regarding the low efficiency of fire from them - any return fire makes the enemy nervous and is it commensurate to shoot, say, 50 horns to AK with the loss of a car worth 5 million rubles?
Evacuation in the "Iveco" from the second row is only possible left or right, as well as through the hatch. From the first row the driver is evacuated only to the left, the commander only to the right. This means that when overturning on one of the sides, one soldier will remain in the car and will not be able to get out until a crane or a car with a powerful winch comes to the rescue. The distance in the Iveco between the inter-row struts and the second row of seats is small, which poses a threat ... leg fractures of soldiers sitting in the second row when driving cars on rough terrain, heavy braking or an accident.
Salon "Tiger" is a one-volume armored capsule, allows you to transport 6 people under the scheme 2 + 2 + 2. Any soldier from the crew can take the driver’s seat without leaving the vehicle. Through the hatch, two soldiers can fire at the same time in two different directions. Others can shoot practically in all directions, including the stern, from any kind of personal weapon, including rifle grenade launchers. Placed in the troop compartment 4-m soldiers in full gear more than spacious and comfortable.
Due to the limited reserved volume, Iveco does not allow it to be used as a KSHM, special electronic warfare machine, an armored medical vehicle, etc. More comfortable chairs in "Iveco" are explained simply :) The customer of "Tigers" - Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, wanted the chairs in them simpler ... Using "Iveco" will increase disunification in the Russian Armed Forces, make it difficult to solve supply issues and put their operation directly dependent on supplies s / h and other materials from NATO countries.
Security
The assessment of the security level of Iveco LMV M65, carried out by experts through external examination and examination of the available documentation, raises great doubts about its stated protective properties —3 level of protection according to STANAG 4569 (not to mention that its 6a is protected according to GOST R 50963-96) . And that's why. Armored glass has a thickness of no more (!) 60 mm, when the domestic armored glass for 6 protection class has a thickness of about (!) 70mm. At the same time all over the world it is recognized that the armored glass produced by the Russian Federation is by far the most durable and usually 1,2-1,5 times thinner than imported samples, with the same ballistic stability.
The "Iveco" "Armored capsule" is a fiction, there is a kind of pipe-type structure on which ceramic and steel panels are mounted with fasteners. Armor is a pottery made in Germany, which in Italy is connected to a substrate of high-strength polyethylene made in Holland.
The technology of production of this armor did not receive even the United States, so who decided that it will sell us? The beauty of the type is that such armor is 40% lighter than armor steel, but also much more expensive. In the appendage to everything, the substrate at low temperatures transforms the ceramic panels into a coating that splits when a bullet hits.
Domestic ceramic armor is made on a substrate of aluminum, comes out about 10-15% heavier, but more reliable and in the cold armor works. The joints between the ceramic panels in "Iveco" are covered with just steel armor, the resistance of which is also in doubt. Italians parry quickly: "... our technical documentation allows up to 15% of weakened areas of surface area." Those. it turns out that the 2-3 meter square "armored capsules"
"Iveco" is not protected!
In the Russian Federation, GOST does not allow weakened zones on armored vehicles relating to military equipment. For collectors it is possible, for the army, it is impossible!
If the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation took care of the lives of the soldiers, would it be easier to order panels based on aramid thread? Such a panel is lighter than ceramic (1m.kv. Slightly more than 4kg, against only 20 kg of one polyethylene substrate without ceramics.), Provides good ballistic protection, fire safety and noise insulation. For such a package you need at least 4 kg of such thread, and its price is 14000 rub . per kg, imported kevlar and tvaron cheaper, but thicker and heavier.
A few words about the standards.
When determining compliance with the resistance of protection in the West, it is considered that it complies with the stated standard, if 50 (!) Percent of the fired bullets (shells, missiles, etc.) plus one is not pierced. In other words, if you shoot a B-32 bullet with 100 and more than meters from the SVD with Iveco, and from the 4 store that was shot, the bullets pierce the 4 crew members from the 5, it’s all the same, by Italian standards, to protect the machine corresponds to the norm! According to the State Standards of the Russian Federation is unacceptable! In our country, the formation of a convexity on the inside with a micro crack, through which the kerosene is leaking (and does not flow!), Is considered non-penetration. And if this happens at least after one hit from 100, the protection will not meet the norm.
"Tiger" is specifically designed to ensure 100% protection, so the design is precisely the armored capsule "Tiger" was created taking into account these requirements. Special technical solutions in difficult places (hinges, door locks, etc.) forced us to increase the mass of the car by more than 200kg. Engineers "Iveco" on this save ...
Realizing the significant difference in the cost of steel armor and ceramics with a non-substrate, not in favor of the latter (several thousand rubles against 2000 euro per square meter) and realizing the absence of technology, equipment and specialists in repairing combat damage to ceramic armor in the Defense Ministry and other agencies ( and after 2-x, the maximum 3-x bullets hit in the ceramic armored panel, you need to change it), our experts made the "Tiger" of high-strength armored steel.
The military version of the "Tiger" GAZ-233014 is made according to the 3-y protection class in accordance with GOST 50963-96 (or according to the 1 level of STANAG 4569). inferior to the level of protection "Iveco". BUT! As it turned out, the 3 class of protection for the "Tiger" determined in the TK precisely the RF Ministry of Defense! For example, for the Ministry of the Interior "Tigers" GAZ-233036 are delivered made according to 5 class GOST (2-th level STANAG).
Recently it became known that our specialists have developed a new armor steel capable of providing the 6 crew almost the same thickness and mass of the Tiger with a GOST standard ballistic protection crew (not the STANAG 3 level with Italian simplifications). Technologically and much cheaper than ceramics, and most importantly, reliable!
Mobility.
On the website of the MK was a video recording of tests for winter patency in the Bronnitsy near Moscow. There you can clearly see how the Iveco, having driven 10-15 meters through the snow, dug in and got up in it. "Tiger" was driving like a good dirt road. After this, the comparative tests stopped. Acts of testing "Iveco" were issued with a positive (?!) Result for it, although the plan was to extend the tests until the autumn of 2010. As the Russian media later reported, in June 2010. By order of the Russian Defense Ministry "Iveco" (more precisely, "trash") was adopted by the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation. Suspension "Tiger" borrowed from the battle-proven BTR-80. "Iveco" also turned into a military vehicle from a civilian SUV.
"Iveco" is supplied with 3-hlitrovym diesel engine with power 190 hp and torque 456Hm. Install a more powerful engine because of the density of the layout is not possible. Domestic "Tigers" while supplied with American diesel "Cummings" 5,9l. 205l.s and 705Hm. There is an option with a diesel in 420l.s. It is being tested "Tiger" with a fully domestic diesel engine in 240l.s. It was the American diesel engine that didn’t allow the Tigger to become a full-fledged combat unit in the Russian army for a long time. According to the requirements of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, all weapons and military equipment must consist of domestic components. Italy has already become a subject of the Russian Federation !? Nevertheless, a completely foreign car is accepted for the supply of the RF Armed Forces. How is this possible!?
According to the stated Italian characteristics, "Iveco" retains the functionality from -32С to + 49С. Domestic specialists should provide the operational range from -50С to + 50С. This is a standard requirement for all weapons and military equipment in our aircraft. There is nothing new here. However, meeting these requirements costs considerable time and money. Why then is a foreign model accepted for service of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation that does not meet these requirements as well ?!
Price.
Tiger costs about 5 mln. Rub. for the car. The preliminary cost of Iveco LMV M65 when organizing an assembly will be approximately ... 20-23 million rubles per car !. We don’t have to talk about the localization of production of "Iveco", since it has not only Italian components: international armor, a box - German ZF, a remotely controlled weapon module - Norwegian, etc.
Will these NATO countries sell us their technology? - It is doubtful to say the least. You can still write a lot and in detail about this, but it is clear that "Iveco" does not meet the requirements and "ruin" "Tiger" for the sake of "Iveco" is at least wrecking. "Tigers" are already serving almost the entire territory of the Russian Federation, and, according to OOO "VPK", are used in 10 countries around the world - in Europe, Asia, the Middle East and Latin America. It is known from media reports that the Tigers have already mastered the territory of China, Israel, Jordan and Brazil, and the possibility of organizing an assembly in Azerbaijan is being discussed. The cost of "Iveco" is in 3 times more than domestic counterparts, with equal or inferior indicators.
It is easy to conclude from the foregoing that the adoption and purchase of Iveco for the Russian Armed Forces is inexpedient and unjustified. Nevertheless, in accordance with the draft state armaments program, it is planned to purchase for the needs of the RF Armed Forces 1775 data of armored vehicles for a total amount of 30 billion rubles. The purchase of a similar number of modified Tigers would have cost 20 billion rubles less and would have provided jobs for thousands of Russian citizens, and not Italian ones.
Against the background, and even if you remember history with "Mistral", Israeli drones, the installation of NATO weapons on the ships of the Navy, the purchase in Germany of the technology for the production of some kind of armor, field camps, kitchens (!) All this looks .... Decide for yourself how it looks ... We even have kitchens, diesel generators, shower cabins, etc. is not capable of producing industry?!
"Thank you" to you (you know who) for it!
GAZ Tiger vs Iveco LMV
Information