Disadvantages of the T-72B tank, ways of their garage field correction and tactics of using the tank in modern combat

199
Disadvantages of the T-72B tank, ways of their garage field correction and tactics of using the tank in modern combat


To date, the Russian army has a great many different armored combat vehicles (BBVs). According to the main combat tanks the picture is as follows. The most powerful are the T-90A and T-90 tanks. However, their number is small. There is also a number of fairly powerful T-80U tanks. Recently, the T-72B3 tank, which is a completely stupid attempt to modernize the T-72B and T-72BM tanks with the aim of bringing their combat qualities to the T-90A level, began to enter the troops. For some positions, it really succeeded. For others, no improvement is observed. Well, in some places, there was a rollback to the level of the base T-72 Ural and T-72A. Most of the tanks are T-72B, T-72BM and T-80BV, of which the T-72B (M) is the most numerous. All this technology of the 80s to date, of course, is outdated, although it was once considered the best in the world. Also still found are the old T-72A (B), T-80B and even the fossils T-55AM (B) and T-62M (B). This article will focus on the T-72B.

What should tankers do in case of a “big” war? When will it take on this tank to take part in a city battle against enemy infantry, armed to the teeth with the most modern anti-tank weapons? Or in the field / desert to resist the latest "Abrams" or, God forbid, "Type-99A2"? Of course, in most cases, the crew alone can do little here. But if it is far from the strict eyes of the authorities, and there is at least some engineering factory nearby, then you can still do something ...

The main battle tank T-72B is well known to all. He took part in almost all wars since its inception and established itself as a reliable and powerful combat vehicle. The 45-ton monster has demonstrated the ability to withstand dozens of hits of anti-tank missiles and grenades, while maintaining its combat capability and continuing to search for the enemy with a long barrel of its 125-mm gun. Its effectiveness is also no doubt. However, the tank is not without flaws, some of which can be fatal for him in the conditions of modern combat.

Disadvantages T-72B

Layout Very close fighting compartment. The commander is simply sandwiched between the cannon, the commander’s complex, the back of the seat and the starboard with instruments and shells. The gunner is somewhat more spacious. The driver seems to be good, but he has another misfortune - the gun covers his hatch and if at the time of the destruction of the tank it turns out to be above the hatch, the mechanics won't get out. And it is necessary to get out quickly - why, it will be explained below. Of course, unlike the T-80 tanks in the T-72B, a mechanic can crawl through the combat compartment and climb out of one of the tower hatches, but because of the same crowding, in the event of a fire or injury to the mechanic, you should not really count on it. The lion's share of this closeness is given by the fuel tanks placed right in the fighting compartment along with the people, as well as the 45 extremely fire-dangerous artillery rounds and separate-cartridges loading missiles. Of these, 22 are located in AZ. The remaining 23 are literally literally around the entire perimeter of the hull and tower. Some of them are inserted into the fuel tanks-racks. They are fuel-filled tanks with sockets into which shells and charges are inserted. In the case of penetration of armor, it is often this one that is affected - the non-mechanized part of the ammunition. The most fire-hazardous element among all this explosive mixture is the caprine charges. These charges have no local protection, except for thin walls of shelving tanks and flammable fuel jackets, and they light up even from the fire of an ordinary lighter within a few seconds! It is not difficult to imagine in which hell the crew could end up if the tank armor was broken through. And to get out of it will be extremely difficult because of the same crowding. When charges ignite, tremendous energy and temperature is released. If the hatches are closed, the tower tears off. All this happens very often all of a sudden, which does not leave the crew a chance for salvation. It burns, evaporates, it breaks into pieces. It happens much more often in comparison with Western and old domestic tanks. This situation, of course, in the most negative way acts on the psyche of the crew members, forcing them to sometimes leave a completely serviceable and efficient tank.



1A40-1 fire control system was considered quite simple at the time of the appearance of T-72B in 1985. Today it is completely obsolete. For example, American and French tanks had a similar MSA as far back as the 60s of the 20th century. The 1A40-1 OMS has a digital ballistic computer and a laser range finder. The SLA takes into account many parameters, however, only the range to the target and the type of ammunition are automatically processed. The remaining parameters (angular velocity of the target and the tank, wind, air temperature, charge, etc.) must be entered manually. Naturally, no one will do this in battle. The TPD-K1 gunner's sight and the 1K13-49 device have an increase of 8x, which by modern standards is no longer enough. The TPN-3-49 night sight, in the passive mode, sees only 800 meters. If you turn on the IR illuminator, you can see the enemy on 1200 meters, but the tank itself will glow in the enemy’s night gears. The commander is even worse. His TKN-3M device has an increase in all 5x by day and 4,2x by night. At the same time, the range of vision at night, even in active mode, does not exceed 500. The commander has a very vague idea of ​​the tactical situation on the battlefield, since has only voice information from the radio station P-173. As a result, shooting even at daytime over a range of 2000-2500 m is difficult. Especially with moving targets. At a distance over 2000, all hope is mainly on the 9K120 Svir missiles, which, by the way, do not differ in flight stability. This situation makes a decisive day battle on the T-72B at a distance more than 2000 m with modern MBT and wheeled BRM (AMX-10, Ruikat, etc.) with tank guns, a very dangerous undertaking. And the presence of missiles does not necessarily give T-72B an advantage here - their low accuracy is confirmed time after time by launches during tank biathlon competitions. They can not hit the target even with 2000 m. As for the night battle, if you still want to live, it is better to not get involved in a night battle on T-72B with modern imported armored vehicles. Also on T-72B it is very easy to “get lost” in an unfamiliar place. During the New Year’s storming of the Terrible 1995, the terrible system of command control of Russian tanks revealed all its flaws. Nobody really knew the city. There were no normal maps. Militants deliberately changed the signs with house numbers and street names in order to confuse and complicate the orientation of the terrain. As a result, many tanks, often one by one, rode around the city here and there, not knowing where their own, where others are and where the exit was. Until then, until you become a victim of a successful shot. For comparison: the Abrams TIUS tank М1А2 called FBCB2 gives its commander an exact map of the area, coordinates, location of its tanks and the location of the enemy detected. Up to the current technical parameters of each individual machine.

Frontal projection protection. There are no questions in principle here. The forehead of the T-72B tank, tightly lined with elements of 4C20 KNDZ "Contact-1", is really concrete. To break through it, even with modern anti-tank weapons (PTS), is almost unreal. But there is also a fly in the ointment - the lower frontal part (NLD). Unlike WLD, NLD is only a monolithic armor plate 80 mm thick, located at a certain angle. The elements of KNDZ "Contact-1" at T-72B are located on the NLD from above, only in one row. Of course, the probability of getting into NLD is somewhere at the level of 1%, but still unpleasant. Especially since these very TCPs are becoming more and more accurate from year to year and VLD is relieved from short distances in general.

Side projection protection. Characterized by the phrase: powerful but unreliable. It is a monolithic armor plate 80 mm in thickness, from which at a distance of the caterpillar width there is an 10-mm rubber-fabric screen. On which, in turn, are the elements of 4C20 KNDZ "Contact-1". All this looks seriously and seems to be the best onboard protection among all domestic mass-produced MBTs. However, there are serious drawbacks:

- Elements 4С20 cover the screen not to the full length, but only to the MTO. Next comes the bare screen + side armor with a reduced level of protection;

- the on-board screen in the T-72B is too short. It does not reach the bottom of the case. As a result, it is quite likely that the vehicle gets into the side of the tank below the screen. Large track rollers to some extent shield the board, but in this case there is no particular hope for them;

- the main drawback. The 10-mm rubber fabric side screen is too frail, and it has a weak attachment to the body. Even under the weight of elements of KNDZ he bends. Tearing off this screen about any obstacle is easier than ever. In the case of contact with the TCP, it usually just falls off. Partially or wholly. It is impossible to control the condition of the onboard screens in combat from inside the tank. If you lose the screen, then the equivalent of protecting the side view of the tank becomes equal to the thickness of the side plate - 80 mm. Exactly like a German tank "Tiger" 2MV times. Even RPGs of the Great Patriotic War are easily penetrated by such armor: “Bazooka”, “Faustpatron”, “Pantsershrek”. How many chances in a city battle with a T-72B tank with torn off screens, it is not difficult to imagine. In Abrams and Merkava, onboard projection protection is much more powerful and reliable. The eternal desire to save mass, moreover, due to the vital elements, not one crew of T-72B tanks and other domestic tanks of such a formation have already sent to the world.



Fodder protection. Yes, yes, it is not always possible to keep the forehead of the tank turned to the enemy. Especially when the enemy is everywhere, which is often the case in urban combat with poorly adjusted interaction with infantry. The fodder projection protection of the T-72B is none. Just none. Located under a slight inclination to the outside, an armor plate with a thickness of 45mm will only protect against rifle-and-machine-gun fire. Even a BMP or BTR with a small-caliber automatic cannon that is behind is death for the T-72B. Needless to say, such protection is easily affected from any RPG. Do not think that the crew will save the engine located in the stern. Firstly, there were cases when the TCP hit from the stern punched through all the MTO right through the engine and flew into the fighting compartment. Secondly, even if it protects. After that, he obviously will not work, and there is no auxiliary power unit for T-72B. The defeat of the engine will immediately turn the "Lizard" into a fixed block of metal. With all the consequences. Protection of the stern of the tower is at the world level, but it also does not cast thoughts on reliability and security. In general, from the stern of the T-72B is an indecently easy target. Which, incidentally, is typical of many, even modern tanks.

Protection of the upper hemisphere. There are no questions to the protection of the upper front hemisphere. It is better than most modern tanks. The protection of the upper rear hemisphere is rather weak. Nothing to do with it - this is typical for almost any tank.

Firepower. No claims to the artillery unit. 125-mm gun is quite accurate and very powerful. The stabilizer is great. However, in urban combat you need to be careful - do not shoot down lampposts with a gun. This will quickly kill the stabilizer. Claims are only to AZ. It does not allow placing shots longer than 700 mm, which imposes a limitation on the power of the BOPS. The possibilities of the maximum possible for the stock T-72B of the ZBM-44 projectile are still sufficient today. But enough at the limit. Next rocket. The range of their launch is small, and the accuracy and stability is not very good. On the other hand, these are empty cavils, since most modern tanks have no missiles at all. But the ZPU "Rock" can really be criticized. She has no remote control. Armor cover is also absent. This means that in a city battle you can forget about the powerful 12,7-mm machine gun NSVT. It is necessary to open the hatch, as you immediately get a queue of AKM or "lemon". But the NSWT in the city is needed. A large elevation angle allows you to hit the enemy's manpower on the upper floors of buildings, and the high power of fire allows you to pierce the walls of houses, striking the enemies hidden behind them.

Summarizing all the above drawbacks, it can be stated with regret that the T-72B tank is well suited for a decisive tank battle on a collision course and for defeating single objects. But pretty bad in urban combat. Loaded with a variety of machine guns and dull heavy armor around the circle "Abrams" and "Merkava" here will be better. Not to say that invulnerable than T-72B, but somehow reliable, or something.

Power point. B-84-1 engine, hp 840 coupled with a seven-speed manual gearbox, it can reach speeds in 60 km / h, but does not provide the ease of operation and driving characteristics that modern Western tanks have. Quickly turn on 180 degrees in a narrow lane T-72B can not. On the other hand, this characteristic of mobility does not have a direct relationship to purely fighting qualities. But T-72B has a good cross and it can withstand / lift a lot.

The rest of the claims to this wonderful tank no. But in the modern battle with these shortcomings something needs to be done. After all, go to the authorities and ask to change to T-90A (to which many of the shortcomings of T-72B are exactly the same) will not work.

Events

Measures to prepare the old T-72B for combat with enemy special forces armed with the Vampire RPG-29, as well as with М1А2SEP, Merkava-MK.4 and Apache helicopters, can be:

a) clean and clean. Throw away all unnecessary trash (rags, bottles, wrenches) from the inside;

b) carefully configure the LMS. Carry out the alignment of devices in order to eliminate any mismatch between the axes of the gun and the sights. For the mechanical part, it is necessary to exclude even the slightest backlash (especially with this 12,7-mm NSVT machine gun), which have the most negative effect on accuracy. To achieve the perfect work of all mechanisms;

c) adjust ammunition. It makes no sense to chase in the number of shells for a much more cumbersome "Abrams". The ammunition should consist of 22 shots in AZ + 2 (backup) from the bottom of the body. Total 24 shot. Composition: 10 - BOPS (maximum possible length), 10 - OFS, 4 - missiles. From cumulative shells get rid completely;

d) to alter the fuel system so that it was possible to pour water into the tanks-racks. Empty nests for shots filled with red brick chips or expanded clay and closed with plugs. AZ in the corners gets a local anti-cumulative "shirt" with a good equivalent. Places inside the tank becomes much more;

e) go to the store and buy a widescreen car GPS-navigator with Navitel maps. Fix the device at the commander's workplace and connect a GPS antenna mounted on the roof of the tower to it. Of course, he will not give information about where his and where enemies. But this device will give the exact coordinates of the location, it will show where the street is, where is what, what is the shortest route of departure / passage. As they say, bezrybe and cancer fish. This alone can save a life;



f) clean all three zabeshenny zip drawers and fill them with red brick scrap or expanded clay. A neat metal strip is welded to them along the contour with a crescent. Normal to paint. Attach metal chains to the strip with a pitch of 50-70 mm, by analogy with the Merkava. Chains should lightly touch the roof of the MTO, but not drag along it. Very serious protection (against cumulative TCP) of the stern and rear of the sides of the tower is ready;

g) ensure that all elements of the Contact-4 20C1 KNDS are equipped with the full number of them;

h) in the front, on the NLD, below the row of DZ elements, attach two rubber-fabric screens in the manner of how it is made in T-80 tanks. From them, these screens will do;

i) remove and throw out the rubber-fabric side screens. Rather, remove and set aside, after having previously dismantled the elements of the DZ 4C20 placed on them. Instead of perversions to make according to drawings or on templates metal screens 15-20 mm thick on folding loops. They can be made from ordinary structural steel st. 45. Now almost at any factory there is a so-called. thermal cutting machine (in common "plasma"), on which these parts can be easily cut. In their lower part, these screens should rest on the stops made of a Dy-40 pipe with a rubber boot and a bolt thread. Only when welding such stops to the board, it is necessary to make sure that they are not in the zone of dynamic motion of the road wheels. On these, full-fledged, smooth and shiny screens with fresh paint, you should mount the elements of the DZ 4C20. Mount tightly, without gaps and to the stern. That is, the elements of the DZ should be closed the entire board entirely to the stern. To the bottom of the screen fasten rezinotkanevuyu "skirt", cut from the old screens. It should fall at least below the hubs of the road wheels;

k) remake mounting rear barrels. They do not need to be removed, since the extra fuel, taking into account the water in the shelving tanks, will not hurt. But we need to move them below - in front of the rear body armor. First, they will not interfere with the gun. Secondly, the protection of the cardboard poop will be somewhat enhanced;

l) weld the mount to the “Rock” ZPU. Attach a shield cut from a metal sheet 5-7 mm thick to the fastening on bolts. In this shield there should be narrow embrasures under the body of the machine gun and for its sight;

m) do not spare for the tank the best engine and transmission oils. Use the same as used in modern imported trucks. Try to replace the old Glushak. Glushak better to put on the T-90A. With it, the engine will “whisper”.

T-72B reworked this way will turn into a monster capable of defeating any opponent. The cost of such alterations is unlikely to exceed 100-150 thousand rubles. In terms of overall protection, survivability and reliability, such a self-made T-72B will be at the level of Merkavy-MK.4 and much better than a half-dressed T-90A. The work is mainly welding and plumbing, as well as wiring and commissioning.

Tactics of use of T-72B

A) In the night battle with the "Abrams", "Leopards" and "Types" in any case not to get involved. It is almost certain death.

B) In daytime combat, if possible, choose either long-range (more than 3000) and work with rockets, or, conversely, short (closer than 1500 m). At medium distances, the T-72B with its MSA does not do anything else. Try to choose static targets.

C) Against the infantry, sheltered in the houses, actively apply not only OFSy, but also BOPSy, shooting through them through the walls.

D) Be necessarily sober in battle. Alcohol intoxication can lead to a fatal error.

D) Forget about all kinds of fireproof suits. Firstly, it is very stuffy in them, which will have an appropriate effect on working capacity. Secondly, they are so hampering movement that in the event of a fire from the close fighting compartment T-72B will not get out. To be in a T-shirt and sports pants. On the feet or sneakers, or nothing (barefoot). A suit from burning charges will not save. All the same, or burn, or disperse there, like potatoes.

E) In the event of a helicopter attack, first try to hide by putting a smoke screen. Use URO against them only as a last resort. If this does not distract from the process of finding shelter.

G) Use 12,7-mm machine gun NSVT in the city very carefully. Even despite the shield cover, the commander remains vulnerable behind and from the sides.

199 comments
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  1. +32
    10 February 2014 08: 52
    "D) Be sure to be sober in combat. Drunkenness can lead to a fatal mistake."

    Of course, I understand that war is war, but only T-72B tankers need to be sober? Strange tactics. request
    1. +29
      10 February 2014 09: 56
      At the beginning of the offensive, the commander gave a recipe for victory: "We will mislead the enemy - we will attack sober !!!" laughing
      1. +14
        10 February 2014 10: 24
        Well, to be honest, the tone and reasoning in the article resembles the notes of an unhealthy WOT gamer fan. Teenage and youthful maximalism is simply discouraging.
        1. +5
          10 February 2014 10: 37
          Quote: Argon
          youthful maximalism is simply discouraging.

          not a tanker >>>> exactly, not a tanker ((((
          I didn’t sit in the tank and saw MBT only by the box (((
          but the T-72B tower, it is necessary to change >>> the problem is ripe >>>>> T-90 MS, it is quite suitable (((
          modernization of the T-72B4, with a tower from the T-90 ((((
          and fuel tanks in the fenders >>>> what to do with them ???
          engine >>>> strong 12000 ((((
          and will fight another "old man", no problem ((((
          1. 0
            12 February 2014 13: 47
            Quote: cosmos111

            and fuel tanks in the fenders >>>> what to do with them ???

            And what prevented you from these fuel tanks? They are empty in battle.
            1. 0
              20 January 2018 12: 51
              They must be filled with water before the battle.
          2. The comment was deleted.
        2. +20
          10 February 2014 14: 08
          Quote: Argon
          Well, to be honest, the tone and reasoning in the article resembles the notes of an unhealthy gamer fan

          There is something! Yes
          He invented some kind of carcasses, the naval chief artilleryman was direct.
          The tightness in the tower. And put him in the T-80b (t-64b), then what will he say ?!
          I found "Glushak" on a tank ... lol
          But there is a rational grain in these statements.
          The use of various screens, gratings, removal of non-mechanized ammunition stowage in the "locker" on the tower. But it is impossible to reduce the ammunition load. A tank without ammunition and fuel is a pile of metal. In the city, you can, probably, unload everything except the AZ, and a small stock in the least vulnerable places, in the raid on the rear it is impossible in any way) It is not so expensive, but it is quite effective from melee PTS, some ATGMs.
          And this is not news, EVERYTHING is well known to EVERYONE. Why are there no such bells and whistles on the T-72B3? I have expressed my opinion more than once. There are only "secret heroes" around, but there is no case (not in full No.)
          1. +17
            10 February 2014 14: 30
            Quote: Argon
            Adolescent maximalism is simply discouraging.

            Quote: Alekseev
            There is something!


            Hi guys.
            For the sake of this article, he abandoned his principles not to go to the beginning of already written comments.

            Ivan (Krang):
            When I started reading the article, I was in a good mood and began to habitually copy the phrases of the article for commenting.
            But as you read ... the wedge in the head completely went into a stupor.

            One sentence is normal.
            The second is nonsense.
            And so the whole article: normal nonsense, normal nonsense.
            To comment - you need to write the same article.

            Sorry, but you picked up a lot of clearly not your "normal" phrases and mixed them with some utter crap.
            Nafuy was generally writing ??????????????????? Conscience is there or only one conceit ???????????? Borders also need to have.

            I stop commenting, otherwise I’ll say too much ...
            1. tank 34
              -2
              12 February 2014 01: 10
              The young man, and you can see for a long time not flogged. It would not hurt quite
          2. Pinochet000
            0
            10 February 2014 22: 30
            Quote: Alekseev
            But there is a rational grain in these statements.

            Yes there is))
          3. +3
            11 February 2014 22: 42
            Quote: Alekseev
            I’ve invented some kind of cartouche,

            Thank you colleague, and somehow I’m even at this pearl
            rocket-mounted rocket loading missiles.
            and I didn’t pay attention ...
            Krang is the only country using a cap to shoot tanks - England. Soviet guns, and respectively made on their basis, as well as German and American, French use the cartridge case. CARTOUS loading guns have a different design, somehow take the time to familiarize yourself with the differences, but they are significant ...
            1. 0
              20 January 2018 12: 55
              Excuse me, but the American - what kind of guns?
          4. 0
            15 February 2014 11: 27
            Quote: Alekseev
            And this is not news, EVERYTHING is well known to EVERYONE. Why are there no such bells and whistles on the T-72B3? I have expressed my opinion more than once. There are only "secret heroes" around, but there is no case (not in full

            Who exactly? If on this site, then it is pointless. Tank upgrades are not made on the websites. Modernization means plans and money, and the designers at the plant are people with ambitions. Come to them and tell them what and how, it is possible that they will not listen. After all, the tank was created according to the approved technical specifications, moreover, approved at the very "top"! For example, they approved the required mileage without refueling and the ammunition load, but the tank is not rubber. That's where you want - put it there, but keep within the dimensions and weight! And that's just a couple of problems. And science, materials, equipment - everything is tied into one knot. Something lags behind - so you have to get out.
    2. +8
      10 February 2014 11: 45
      The need for inventions is cunning, by the way it’s time to let them serve with their weapons, fathers will buy new ones, for example tanks or pay for modernization,
      1. +14
        10 February 2014 11: 55
        Quote: Civil
        By the way, it’s high time to allow serving with your weapons,

        I won’t pull the tank, sorry. And if someone in the Air Force wanders?
        1. +5
          10 February 2014 13: 22
          Quote: Vladimirets
          Quote: Civil
          By the way, it’s high time to allow serving with your weapons,

          I won’t pull the tank, sorry. And if someone in the Air Force wanders?

          1. So the welding machine and consumables, the instructions are ready.
          2. In the Air Force strictly, you buy them su 35s, and the offspring for this in the protection of the airfield))))
          1. +10
            10 February 2014 14: 35
            Quote: Civil
            1. So the welding machine and consumables, the instructions are ready.
            2. In the Air Force strictly, you buy them su 35s, and the offspring for this in the protection of the airfield))))

            1. Cooked the tank and on the demobilization.
            2. For the money that costs the Su-35, I myself will serve 10 years. laughing
        2. +1
          10 February 2014 15: 56
          And if in the fleet, on a nuclear cruiser or a nuclear submarine? )))
          1. +1
            10 February 2014 20: 51
            Quote: perfect100
            And if in the fleet, on a nuclear cruiser or a nuclear submarine? )))

            This is to Abramovich, you look so as not to serve, he will buy the submarine division)))
        3. 0
          12 February 2014 13: 54
          Quote: Vladimirets
          Quote: Civil
          By the way, it’s high time to allow serving with your weapons,

          I won’t pull the tank, sorry. And if someone in the Air Force wanders?

          Well, the pilots we have, thank God, are not recruiting, but the idea is very interesting))))))
        4. The comment was deleted.
    3. +10
      10 February 2014 11: 51
      Quote: Vladimirets
      "D) Be sure to be sober in combat. Drunkenness can lead to a fatal mistake."

      Of course, I understand that war is war, but only T-72B tankers need to be sober? Strange tactics. request


      This was apparently the first paragraph of the original instructions, it began with the fact that you need to end up with blue. It seems that the instruction was written for the entire army since the president.

      In any case, thanks to the author. It was interesting to read.
    4. +1
      11 February 2014 12: 24
      The author seems to be a tanker, I think he correctly stated it, moreover, it is practical and accessible, I would listen to him if I were a T72B tanker.
      1. +4
        12 February 2014 04: 47
        I look, everyone considered it his duty to say that the author is wrong, writes nonsense, suffers from youthful maximalism, etc. But something is not noticeable for someone to take and criticize point by point. The author has well structured his thoughts, but critics ??
        1. AGM-114
          +4
          12 February 2014 06: 18
          Quote: Su24
          but critics ??

          A horseradish criticize the flow of drug addiction?
    5. 0
      15 February 2014 10: 56
      Quote: Vladimirets
      Of course, I understand that war is war, but only T-72B tankers need to be sober? Strange tactics.

      Do not carp at the words! Turn on your sense of humor! And the article is good, although I'm not a tanker. The author has put everything into shelves so much that my opinion is: it’s painful! However, who will read all this? Well, if Ch. the designer of the Uralvagonzavod visits this site, and if not?
  2. +5
    10 February 2014 08: 53
    About a t-shirt, sweatshirts and sneakers - well done)))
    1. +1
      10 February 2014 09: 58
      This is where the expression "in shorts and a helmet" came from. In this form, it is especially easy to get out of a burning tank. laughing
      1. +3
        10 February 2014 15: 57
        Especially at -30 ....
  3. AGM-114
    -34
    10 February 2014 08: 56
    The T-72B is a flaw in itself. Even more - an unnecessary flaw and soviet idiocy. After the CFE Treaty, it was necessary to cut them at the root along with T-64 and transfer troops to the T-80, both to gas turbines from Leningrad and Omsk, and to diesel ones from Kharkov.
    1. +30
      10 February 2014 09: 06
      Well, here on the principle that they gave on that and fight. You can’t buy a tank for yourself. Therefore, the author offers a minimal set of “do it yourself” for field workshops in order to somehow compensate for design flaws and increase the protection of the tank and crew. Article +!
      1. +15
        10 February 2014 11: 15
        From an ANNA-news article about events in Syria:
        “Considering the increased number of attacks with the use of RPGs on tanks, tankers in recent days are taking additional measures to protect them. They began to weld additional grilles on the towers, reinforce them with additional bricks and various improvised items that are located. At the same time, in addition to these self-made additional protective In addition, additional sheets are welded from the sides of the tank right on top of the reactive armor, which are reinforced with various materials. The increase in the layers of protection should definitely help the tank's protection and increase the likelihood of survival of the crews in case of a hit. Crews use all possible improvised means in order to protect their tanks as much as possible in these difficult conditions.For infantry fighting vehicles, torn off standard side screens are replaced with self-made ones.At the same time, to increase the efficiency of dispersion of the cumulative jet, the gap between the new screen and the armor is filled with different objects scattering the cumulative jet. "
        http://wot-kingdom.ru/uploads/thumbs/video/6/9/2/69295007593130c9f0063807b9c1f42
        a.jpg
        As the saying goes: "If you want to live, it’s not so debatable!"
    2. Crang
      0
      10 February 2014 09: 30
      So the T-80 is even worse. Not only do all the listed T-72B shortcomings relate to him, but there are also a bunch of their own.
      1. AGM-114
        +7
        10 February 2014 09: 43
        Quote: Krang
        All listed disadvantages of T-72B include

        Is that the layout. Take the T-80BV. He has:
        - a successful loading mechanism, which is not afraid of bottom deformation;
        - a full-fledged SLA 1A33 instead of a ballistic reference book;
        - the possibility of using KVV in motion;
        - a powerful power plant of 1100 l / s made in a monoblock form factor, which allows you to replace it in just an hour instead of 24-hour sodomy with the V-46-6 / V-84-1 / V-84MS centered on the T-72 and its descendants;
        - the GTE-1000TF overhaul life is 500 hours, and the closest in power of a V-92S2 serial diesel engine per 1000 horses has 350 hours;
        - a normal cooling system instead of water squalor with fans that throw dust up;

        And what does the T-72 have? Nothing.
        1. +4
          10 February 2014 09: 54
          Quote: AGM-114
          that allows you to replace it in just an hour instead of 24-hour sodomy with the centering of the B-46-6 / V-84-1 / V-84MS on the T-72 and its descendants;

          How do I understand very "pleasant" memories? wink
          1. AGM-114
            +13
            10 February 2014 10: 04
            Zampotech, a pest mechanic, two obscure conscripts passing by the park and the unfused B-84MS. And all this against the background of MTO-80. Here is some fun.
        2. Crang
          +5
          10 February 2014 10: 01
          Quote: AGM-114
          - a successful loading mechanism, which is not afraid of bottom deformation;

          With vertically standing charges, which turns the driver’s compartment into a trap. In addition, upright charges with a large area are an excellent target. Fragile side screens devoid of DZ elements almost do not protect this tidbit for a grenade launcher.
          Quote: AGM-114
          - a full-fledged SLA 1A33 instead of a ballistic reference book;

          The T-72B has digital ballistic computerand not a ballistic corrector as in the base T-72. SLA 1A33 is also inferior.
          Quote: AGM-114
          - the possibility of using KVV in motion;

          But the KUV is so good, against the background of which the 9K120 Svir T-72B is simply an unattainable ideal.
          Quote: AGM-114
          a powerful power plant of 1100 l / s

          With cardboard feed, heated heat and a gigantic appetite.
          Quote: AGM-114
          And what does the T-72 have? Nothing.

          T-72 is better than T-80. The T-72 has something that is not in the T-80.
          1. AGM-114
            +8
            10 February 2014 10: 18
            Quote: Krang
            which turns the driver’s compartment

            Religion doesn’t lower the cannon, remove the PKTM cartridge case and throw off the four trays of the MH conveyor? By the way, the laz is obtained more than 72 matches.
            Quote: Krang
            The T-72B has a digital ballistic computer

            Corrections for wind and target speed are not taken into account, yes.
            Quote: Krang
            SLA 1A33 is also inferior.

            That is what is full.
            Quote: Krang
            and gigantic appetite

            Speaking about a kerosene-devouring turbine, for some reason everyone forgets about the other fuel and lubricants nomenclature. The gas turbine engine doesn’t need a wild amount of special fluids that diesel loves so much - in what quantities the B-84-1 semi-dead oil eats - it’s better not to know, and you can eat like that.
            Quote: Krang
            guarded heat

            No comment.
            Quote: Krang
            T-72 is better than T-80

            Unless wild African monkeys.
            1. Crang
              +2
              10 February 2014 10: 26
              Quote: AGM-114
              Religion doesn’t lower the cannon, remove the PKTM cartridge case and throw off the four trays of the MH conveyor?

              Time will not allow. Fire.
              Quote: AGM-114
              Corrections for wind and target speed are not taken into account, yes.

              Are taken into account. They just need to be manually entered.
              Quote: AGM-114
              That is what is full.

              Inferior. Night vision devices are the same as in the T-72B. What is the use of automated OMS if you do not see the enemy? And the 2E26 stabilizer is much worse than in the T-72B (2E42-2).
              Quote: AGM-114
              No comment.

              From what? Nothing to say?
              Quote: AGM-114
              Unless wild African monkeys.

              Well, if you think the Russian people are monkeys ... T-72 was chosen because it is better than T-80. In addition to these shortcomings, you can add to the T-80 a horseradish cloud of others.
              1. AGM-114
                +9
                10 February 2014 10: 36
                Quote: Krang
                Time will not allow

                Time will allow it. This operation takes a maximum of 40 seconds.
                Quote: Krang
                You just need to enter them manually

                Those are not taken into account.
                Quote: Krang
                What is the use of automated OMS if you do not see the enemy?

                In any case, such an MSA is better than pounding corrections with pens.
                Quote: Krang
                T-72 was chosen because it is better than T-80

                Because the Ural lobbyists, under the patronage of Yeltsin, deliberately destroyed Omsktransmash and the Klimovsky plant.
                1. Crang
                  +2
                  10 February 2014 10: 52
                  Quote: AGM-114
                  Time will allow it. This operation takes a maximum of 40 seconds.

                  And you need to get out after 4, a maximum of 10 seconds. The driver himself from his place to dismantle the MH as far as I know can not. This can only be done from the side of the tower. In the event of a fire, the gunner and commander jump out and do not even think to go in there and do something.
                  Quote: AGM-114
                  Those are not taken into account.

                  Are taken into account. Enter and everything will be taken into account. Of course, this is not as cool as in a fully automated control system, but it cannot be called a "ballistic corrector" either. The ballistic corrector was in the usual T-72.
                  Quote: AGM-114
                  In any case, such an MSA is better than pounding corrections with pens.

                  In a night battle, almost all the same. At the distance at which the T-72B and T-80BV devices are seen at night, the automated control system is not needed. And "Abrams" will see ours from 3 km and 1A33 T-80 will not help in any way.
                  Quote: AGM-114
                  Because the Ural lobbyists, under the patronage of Yeltsin, deliberately destroyed Omsktransmash and the Klimovsky plant.

                  And vice versa. This is called fair competition. But the T-72 is really better. Like a tank. Without any lobby. Do you like GTD? Put it on the T-90.
                  1. AGM-114
                    +6
                    10 February 2014 10: 56
                    Quote: Krang
                    The driver himself from his place to dismantle the MH as far as I know can not.

                    He can not remove the sleeve PKT (M).
                    Quote: Krang
                    Enter and everything will be taken into account.

                    I say, they are not taken into account.
                    Quote: Krang
                    This is called fair competition.

                    Fair competition in the 90s? Do not make me laugh.
                    Quote: Krang
                    But the T-72 is really better

                    So much so that in the B3 version it barely reached the level of T-64B / T-80B. Oh well.
                    1. Crang
                      +6
                      10 February 2014 11: 25
                      Quote: AGM-114
                      So much so that in the B3 version it barely reached the level of T-64B / T-80B. Oh well.

                      T-72B3 somewhere between T-90 and T-90A. And the usual T-72B is at the level of the T-80BV. Somewhere better, somewhere worse. But in general, the T-72 series turned out to be more viable compared to the T-80. You understand - I agree that the T-80 has some advantages over the T-72. No one argues. But you present your assessment of these tanks as if the T-72 is a collective farm tractor, and the T-80 is another planet. With this I categorically cannot agree. Not another planet. These are tanks of the same time, created by the same people. In one country. There can be no fundamental differences. Well, maybe in the T-80 some kind of device is better, well, that's all. Do you need "another planet"? Welcome to the USA. Another country, another worldview. Other technologies. Their tanks may be an order of magnitude worse than ours in some way, but at the same time, in some ways, and an order of magnitude BETTER. The advantage of the T-80 over the rather dubious GTE, only in slightly more advanced electronics (and even then not everywhere), which is not difficult to replace with a new one (the same T-72B3). But in terms of hardware, i.e. the T-72 itself is better. He was chosen. They stuffed it with ultra-modern electronics and got the T-90A.
                      1. AGM-114
                        +5
                        10 February 2014 11: 35
                        Quote: Krang
                        which is not difficult to replace with a new

                        By the way about the new. In the UKBTM, it seems that the gunners-operators have crooked necks, otherwise justify the installation of the main Pine-U in place of the auxiliary 1K13-49 (for good - you need to put 1A40 in place) impossible.
                  2. +3
                    10 February 2014 11: 10
                    Quote: Krang
                    ...And vice versa. This is called fair competition ...

                    Fair competition ?! Where? When?
                    Funny about fair competition.
                  3. pawel57
                    +7
                    10 February 2014 18: 36
                    You know, not a tanker. How to organize a battle and what is available from the battlefield at night. There are night posts for illumination (maybe it’s not a word-forgotten) in the infantry lighting missiles. Art. highlights in the area art. platoon for light, highlight the enemy, illuminate the area with lighting shells. Enemy illumination will reduce the effectiveness of enemy thermal imagers. Use improvised tools and staff to reduce enemy superiority at night. The author was impressed by the practice. At the end of 80, beginning of 90, not the last people in the country taught me that the T80 is better than the T72, although it was stipulated that the T72 will be simpler and the same as if not bad. At the expense of Bukhalovo, it turns out that alcohol helps with injuries and is more likely to survive if they even hurt in the stomach (anesthesia). I hardly thumped in operations, my heart was beaten and especially heavy in the mountains and hot. The guys swelled more often when in the city or in an ambush. In between yes allowed. There are a lot of equipment in the tank and drunken mistakes are more fatal than in the infantry. In general, the article is necessary.
    3. badger1974
      0
      10 February 2014 13: 04
      Kharkiv residents besides the T-64 and the diesel version of the t-80 didn’t release anything anymore, that the first and the second have an extremely bad power plant - this is the main Akhilov’s heel of the Harkovites, at the expense of the Kirov t-80 with a gas turbine engine, he was born with the technical task fighting at the Western Theater of Combat - at any other he showed insolvency (during partisan operations in buildings (the first Chechen) and at heights (in the mountains of Afghanistan), the t-72, on the contrary, is successful in all directions
      1. +1
        10 February 2014 18: 25
        Well, no need to find fault with 5TD or 6TD - it is quite a well-developed engine - the Chinese with packs after them stand in line. We can say that they are "wild Africans", but judging by their successes, this is clearly wrong ...
        1. badger1974
          +2
          10 February 2014 21: 49
          the Chinese are buying up a freebie, and then they themselves need to break up or unnecessarily modify and launch, and the heat stress of the piston group, both 5td and 6td, as payment for the lack of a complex valve gas distribution system, and power take-off for the cleaning system is an additional charge for fuel consumption, Kharkiv developers say that between-repairs was 500 hours, in Pakistan he didn’t exceed 150-160 hours at the reception, our techies took a steam bath, as a result, they agreed not to lose the contract at the expense of the country to carry out activities with a complete replacement of power plants, without any overhauls,
          On the one hand, it’s good, ours has work, on the other, there is quiet anger, after all, the most serious enterprise of the Soviet tank industry, but the engine .....
      2. +3
        10 February 2014 18: 47
        Quote: badger1974
        Kharkiv residents besides the T-64 and the diesel version of the t-80 didn’t release anything anymore, that the first and the second have an extremely bad power plant - this is the main Akhilov’s heel of the Harkovites, at the expense of the Kirov t-80 with a gas turbine engine, he was born with the technical task fighting at the Western Theater of Combat - at any other he showed insolvency (during partisan operations in buildings (the first Chechen) and at heights (in the mountains of Afghanistan), the t-72, on the contrary, is successful in all directions
        Sorry, where did you get this nonsense. If we talk about Afghanistan, then the OKSV did not use any other tanks, neither the T-64, nor the T-72, let alone the T-80, except for the T-62M with "Ilyich's" eyebrows.

        Soviet T-62M in Afghanistan
        Government Afghan forces used both the T-62 and T-54 / 55, and the T-34-85 (Tsaranda).


        Now, with regards to the First Chechnya, in urban conditions, without adequate cover and fire support, any tank becomes quite easy prey, and this is not necessarily the T-80, but also the T-72 in Syria and the Abrams in Iraq.

        Remember how beautifully the Georgian T-72Sim1, modernized by Ukrainians and Israelis, burned in Tskhinvali in the 2008 year.
        Now for the T-64. So far, the only case of its combat use took place in the 1992 year in Transnistria, when the Transnistrians used it against Moldavians (that’s the enemy as well!), While the crews were not familiar with the T-64BV, on tanks removed from conservation they did not have time to properly prepare the weapons for battle, reconcile him. Large-caliber anti-aircraft 12, 7 mm machine guns were not installed, the Contact-1 dynamic protection complex was not equipped with 4С20 dynamic protection elements. Part of the tanks was partially equipped with elements of remote sensing (only in the most vulnerable areas).
        The Moldavian side possessed in this sector a sufficiently powerful anti-tank defense which was based on the 100 mm anti-tank guns MT-12 Rapira, anti-tank grenade launchers and ATGM Competition. The first Transnistrian attack, due to insufficient infantry support, was drowned, Transnistrians lost an 2 tank.

        The tank, lined with Moldavian guns MT-12 "Rapier", seriously damaged, left Bender, and burned at the entrance to the village of Parcani. The crew moved to another tank and went into battle again.
        On the same day in the evening, the Transnistrians re-attack, three T-64BV and three armored personnel carriers participated in it. This time, sufficient support was provided for tanks by infantry and the Moldavians retreated, suffering heavy losses. The Transnistrian war was won ...
        1. badger1974
          +1
          10 February 2014 21: 20
          HA-HA, Ilyich's eyebrows are really to the point, but seriously, this is what captivates, in any case, I have not met the "seagull" except on the 72nd,
          and so you are inattentive, speaking of Afghan, I focused on the diesel used in the T-72 and the gas turbine engine on the T-80, which in mountain conditions lost from 0.25 percent to 0.5 percent of its power, in contrast to all-diesel engines, and the T-64 for the injection cooling will not be able to bear the heat at all, the operation of the reverse opposite at high speeds leads to overheating with low heat removal by cooling, and clogging reduces the injection to naught, by the way, Ukrainians faced this problem with a contract with Pakistan for the purchase of t-80 with two-stroke diesel engines, the Pakistani side took operation due to the extremely low price and free service by the Ukrainian side of the T-80 diesel power plants, like this
          1. 0
            11 February 2014 19: 51
            Quote: badger1974
            By the way, Ukrainians faced this problem in a contract with Pakistan for the purchase of t-80s with two-stroke diesel engines, the Pakistani side accepted the operation due to the extremely low price and free service by the Ukrainian side of t-80 diesel power plants, like this

            Words are not a boy, but a husband!
            Indeed, if you have a sufficient supply of 6TD "for free", and it is easy to change them, then an acceptable unit.
            1. +1
              11 February 2014 19: 57
              Quote: Alekseev
              Words are not a boy, but a husband!

              It would be better to get acquainted with the pelpmi of this husband, indicative of his awareness.

              Quote: Alekseev
              if you have a sufficient supply of 6TD "for free",

              The fact of the matter is that this freebie must be proved that it is.

              The correctness of the position of N.K. Ryazantsev was confirmed in 1995 at a demonstration of military equipment in the United Arab Emirates in Abu Dhabi. When the T-80UD tank was shown at this International Exhibition of Arms, both the tank and the engine showed excellent results, due to which a contract was signed for the supply of 320 tanks to Pakistan. The high degree of engine perfection is also evidenced by the fact that the joint tank of Pakistan and China Al-Khalid is equipped with Ukrainian diesels, which were created in the HKBD under the leadership of N.K. Ryazantsev. At the same time, the Chinese, Yugoslav and English versions of the power plants were rejected.

              The same period is characterized by the continuation of work to improve the 5TDF diesel engine, expanding the possibilities of its application. The aforementioned engine was boosted to 850 l. with. that allowed to use it on a combat vehicle "Bulat" (modernization of the T-64B tank).

              In 2001, N.K. Ryazantsev was given the authority of the General Designer to create engines for armored vehicles by a decision of the Government of Ukraine. In the same year, he was awarded the title of Laureate of the State Prize of Ukraine in the field of science and technology for the new T-84 tank.

          2. 0
            11 February 2014 20: 01
            Quote: badger1974
            and clogging nullifies injection
            Excuse me, but DUTTERNESS WHAT?
      3. The comment was deleted.
    4. +17
      10 February 2014 13: 16
      My friend, here for a considerable number of people the word "scoop" in relation to their native country is an insult.
      And it’s not necessary to cut tanks that are still completely fit, but to burn out idiocy and betrayal with a hot iron before it is too late.
    5. extankist
      +2
      10 February 2014 13: 59
      By the way, I agree with you to some extent, the t-80UD is a good car, but the engine is useless. I know, the T-64 is my first five-year tank for GSVG.
    6. +2
      10 February 2014 17: 04
      Quote: AGM-114
      it was necessary to cut them at the root with the T-64 and transfer troops to the T-80,

      And tell me, please, a wise adviser-cutter, how does the T-64B tower differ from the T-80B tower?
      And also, what is the difference between the 5TDF 64-ki diesel engine and, especially, in operational terms, from the 6TD (T-80UD)?
      So, just to blurt out ... Yes
      1. +1
        10 February 2014 18: 03
        They would leave U if the engine doesn’t work. The Omsk plant would work, not the Uralvagon plant. Instead of developing the T-90, the kraynyak would put a diesel engine on the T-80 that you prefer.
        1. badger1974
          0
          10 February 2014 22: 02
          the diesel engine on the T-80 becomes, but only a two-stroke opposer in a block with a box, you can’t insert any four-stroke V-shku and it doesn’t fit there, and the transmission block is still worth it, so there’s either a constantly overheated two-stroke engine or a power-hungry gas turbine, only for fuel and air, plus a very sophisticated air purification system, a gas turbine engine needs it like no other engine
          1. Alexander D.
            +1
            11 February 2014 00: 21
            Quote: badger1974
            the diesel engine on the T-80 becomes, but only a two-stroke opposer in a block with a box, you can’t insert any four-stroke V-shku and it doesn’t fit there, and the transmission block is still worth it, so there’s either a constantly overheated two-stroke engine or a power-hungry gas turbine, only for fuel and air, plus a very sophisticated air purification system, a gas turbine engine needs it like no other engine

            Well, that was before - the problem with Kharkov engines - it seems like they’ve finished it and now there are no such power losses at high temperatures. The developer guarantees reliable operation at +55. No wonder their Pakistanis put in their al-Khalid. And in the Turkish tender they showed themselves reliably.
            1. badger1974
              +1
              11 February 2014 00: 39
              freebie, freebie, freebies, engines will be replaced without a major overhaul, Pakistanis generally began to refuse, despite the fact that our techies decided to make concessions in sweat and dust (this wasn’t given to their techies), and even then with the help of amernjazha, there’s a sin and pain
              but in the Turkish tendar exactly the opposite, the Yatagans showed themselves in first place in all respects, the acre of the overhaul of the power plant, but also very cheap and nearby, the Turks would be glad, but the nedoarians stranded in Uncle Sema’s waistcoat, and Uncle Sem led the wrong Turks to the right choice, the Leo-2 who gets stuck in a children's pool
              1. +2
                11 February 2014 00: 49
                Quote: badger1974
                with the help of amernjim, here sin and pain

                Pakistan? Amer push? How did Pakistan manage to build a joint tank with the Kharkov engine with China that you refused, and even the Chinese made their own export engines and sell them. It somehow does not fit with your statements.
                1. badger1974
                  0
                  11 February 2014 01: 12
                  very fit, especially against the background of fluctuations of our border authorities from one bank to another, the yellow children do not lose time, but the Chinese version is even worse in terms of energy consumption for the own needs of the Chinese version of the push-pull opposition, and the Kharkov plants are thinning, only adjusters remain, etc. , in KB so general director accountant and watchman pain, pain and only
                  1. +1
                    11 February 2014 01: 13
                    Quote: badger1974
                    very fit, especially against the backdrop of fluctuations of our border authorities from one bank to another, the yellow children do not lose time, but the Chinese version is even worse in terms of energy consumption

                    Yes, it seems you do not know the topic at all. Such ridiculous mistakes.
                    1. badger1974
                      +1
                      11 February 2014 01: 21
                      Wow, do you have any kind of mistakes? let's measure the power of knowledge on thermal engines, and start with the cycles of the internal combustion engine piston systems
                      1. +1
                        11 February 2014 01: 50
                        Quote: badger1974
                        and start with the engine cycles of the piston systems

                        Why? Name the brand of the Chinese version of 6TD and the tank on which it is installed.
                        you should know
                        Quote: badger1974
                        but the Chinese version is even worse in terms of energy consumption for the own needs of the Chinese version of the push-pull oppositki


                        And why do they extend the order for the purchase of engines in Kharkov.
                        and tacts are a matter of ten, and for the most part no one is interested.
                      2. badger1974
                        0
                        11 February 2014 12: 42
                        what do you mean why ? in order to find out the pros and cons of ICE piston systems, first-class driving (GTE) is not interesting for us yet, but it’s absolutely uninteresting to know where the Chinese are pushing their licensed (if there is such a cheap opportunity) and plagiarized engines (if this is not possible) they capture the Asia-Pacific melitar market, therefore it’s not hard to guess, they won’t get it out of it, but they’ll figure out what’s better, it needs a system of pluses and minuses, and for this you need to know what mechanical and thermal processes occur in ICE, that's interesting
                      3. +1
                        11 February 2014 14: 46
                        Quote: badger1974
                        what do you mean why ?

                        Quote: badger1974
                        but the Chinese version is still

                        Name, Name. Do not tell tales.
                        Quote: badger1974
                        what mechanical-thermal processes occur in the internal combustion engine, this is interesting

                        This is completely uninteresting to me. But you personally lied.
                      4. badger1974
                        -2
                        11 February 2014 15: 11
                        Interestingly what is the misrepresentation? is that a two-stroke diesel engine is go.- or is it violet to me what are the Chinese doing with license or plagiarism? form thoughts before asking questions
                      5. Crang
                        -3
                        11 February 2014 15: 21
                        That a 2-stroke diesel engine. It's true. Not for the tank.
                      6. +1
                        11 February 2014 16: 35
                        Quote: badger1974
                        interestingly what is the misrepresentation

                        What Kmiayts do their own version of 6TD
                        Quote: badger1974
                        form thoughts before asking questions

                        The question is strange, but you are formulating thoughts here.
                        Quote: Kars
                        Name the brand of the Chinese version of 6TD and the tank on which it is installed.
                      7. badger1974
                        0
                        11 February 2014 18: 43
                        maybe they’re doing, they’re up to ... what are they doing, but it’s only to me that it’s violet,
                        shape thoughts
                        the fact that the Chinese are trying to shove their "technical" penny into the outskirts is not a secret, only they did not take into account the cooperation of South Korea with ZAZ, they want to repeat the failure along the way, and this failure will be more significant for them
                      8. +2
                        11 February 2014 19: 00
                        Quote: badger1974
                        maybe they’re doing, they’re up to ... what are they doing, but it’s only to me that it’s violet,

                        So why are you lying if you don’t know? So formulate thoughts when lying
                        Quote: badger1974
                        but the Chinese version is even worse in terms of energy consumption for the own needs of the Chinese version of the push-pull oppositki

                        Quote: badger1974
                        We took into account the cooperation of South Korea with ZAZ

                        Probably, Daewu also had problems in Korea herself because of her collaboration with AvtoZAZ and shipyards.
                      9. badger1974
                        0
                        11 February 2014 19: 56
                        b ... read the news, and filter, but don’t ask, I said once again the push-pull engine 5td 6td or let 16 TD and 32 TD-GO ,,,, BUT, only degenerates can bring this series to life, and even if there is loot, and if there is the same degenerate that will buy them, and Pakistan will get them for free at the expense of state funds from the suburban budget,
                        it’s violet to me that these little men will get up with him, at the expense of the shipyards, they will also have a great deal of charm, but then when they tumble down the loot
                      10. +1
                        11 February 2014 20: 06
                        Quote: badger1974
                        b ... read the news, and filter, and do not ask, I said affirmatively

                        YOU LIED
                        Quote: badger1974
                        degenerates only

                        Why are you talking about yourself?
                        Quote: badger1974
                        and Pakistan will get them for free at the expense of state-owned from the suburban budget

                        PROVE or AGAIN lying? At least what I ask of course you're lying. How is it constantly doing here. I did not confirm anything.
                        Quote: badger1974
                        I'm violet
                        Yes, you yourself seem purple.
                        Quote: badger1974
                        enormous charm awaits them at the shipyards account too, but then when they tumble down
                        Yes, you don’t know how to read it. I'm talking about the problems of the DEU shipyards at the end of 90's and the beginning of 2000 in native Korea)))
                  2. AGM-114
                    +1
                    11 February 2014 01: 21
                    The Ketayans 6TD do not put in their tanks, the licensed Aryan diesel settled there. 6TD they have only for export.
              2. sapran
                +1
                11 February 2014 01: 03
                Brother, bring at least one sane proof from where such a deep knowledge of the topic of the contract? !!! Okay, I would agree if the engines were "free" on the occasion of "privatization" nadybany, but not made from 0,
                Council, just if possible, read a few blogs, you can climb up and they will cleverly answer the blog of packs in "English".
                Ask around, specify where the parts equipped with the T-80UD are located, their numbers, operating features, what year it was redone at the request of the customer, otherwise many garazd will be left here without you.
                If you happened to serve on a "vacuum cleaner" then try to give an honest answer, but what did you do on it yourself? and did you do everything according to the regulations?
                1. badger1974
                  0
                  11 February 2014 01: 43
                  Brother, bring at least one sane proof from where such a deep knowledge of the topic of the contract? !!! Okay, I would agree if the engines were "free" on the occasion of "privatization" nadybany, but not made from 0,
                  is that you to me? it’s better in the KhTZ design bureau, people are fleeing from there, and they’re running the wrong word, they’ll soon flow away, because they don’t have a stream anymore, they’ll flow out like a stream, they say what and how, as they threw them power of all ranks, what’s to be said — SHAME to the authorities of the outskirts and only
            2. +1
              11 February 2014 20: 05
              Quote: Alexander D.
              The developer guarantees reliable operation at +55.

              And what were the times when they did not guarantee? laughing
              I will answer myself: they always guaranteed, but reliable work was far from always.
              Already at + 27 degrees a power limitation is required ...
              Which +55 ...
              1. +1
                11 February 2014 20: 13
                Quote: Alekseev
                Already at + 27 degrees a power limitation is required ...

                And you can wonder when was the last time you worked with the 6TD engine? And what year it was produced and modified?
          2. +1
            11 February 2014 20: 43
            Quote: badger1974
            the diesel engine on the T-80 becomes, but only a two-stroke opposite in the block with a box, any four-stroke V-shku cannot be inserted there, it will not fit
            It is good that when they created the vol.219RD with the A-53-2 (2V-16-2) engine with a capacity of 1000 hp, they did not know about this ...
            1. AGM-114
              +1
              11 February 2014 21: 00
              I saw on the cube this division is still in good condition. Next to it was a T-80B with dismantled horseradish on the tower (probably KAZ, not sure), and so, 219RD is about 60 centimeters longer than Bshki.
          3. +1
            12 February 2014 18: 51
            Quote: badger1974
            ........ the diesel engine on the T-80 becomes, but only a push-pull opposite in the block with the box, any four-stroke V-pulley cannot be inserted there, it will not fit ..

            A change in the propulsion system on our tanks has always been with the digestion of the rear of the tank. That T-80 under the Kharkov engine, that T-72. Moreover, on the T-72 it is necessary to increase the volume of the engine compartment in the lower part (the aft sheet is more vertical).
            At that time, when the Kharkovites put their two-stroke engine on the T-80, the St. Petersburg team put an X-shaped four-stroke engine (object 80rd) on the T-219.


            What to adopt was a political rather than technical issue.
      2. AGM-114
        0
        10 February 2014 18: 46
        The bottom line is that the T-80U and T-80UD have a lot in common (chassis, turret, electronics of the tank), and the differences are in the commander’s devices (due to the closed ZPU UDshki), the power plant with the traditionally sad Kharkov BKP, and very little things ala boxes zip, pipes optvt and other stuff.
        1. Crang
          0
          11 February 2014 12: 51
          Yeah. And yet another small, but important difference in the LMS. T-80Us (at least most of them) were equipped with a TO-PO-2T "Agava-2" thermal imaging sight, which allowed this tank to see at a distance of somewhere 2,5 km at night. The T-80UD as a simplified model with a diesel "engine" had an active-passive infrared sight "Buran-PA" and saw about 1,5 km.
          1. sapran
            +1
            11 February 2014 13: 01
            Oh my god please stop reading only one source (Gur Khan) ...
            The T-80UD cannot be cheaper than the classic T-80U.
            Bars modification of the T-80U which unfortunately did not go into the series.
            The same Pakistani asked to replace the Thomson thermal imagers with the classic TPN-49, since in the conditions of the mountainous rarefied and clean air the advantages of the thermal imager are insignificant and the costs and moodiness are higher. People people look for different sources and compare information in them, do not believe everything at once ...
            1. Crang
              +1
              11 February 2014 13: 13
              Quote: sapran
              The T-80UD cannot be cheaper than the classic T-80U.

              But it's cheaper. It was conceived as a cheaper version of the T-80U. The same tank, only with a simpler diesel engine and an IR gunner's sight. Do not confuse it with the T-80UM and its upgraded modification T-80UM1 "Bars". These are different cars.
          2. AGM-114
            +3
            11 February 2014 18: 47
            Do not buzz. Until the 93rd, everything was identical in terms of stuffing, then the differences went. Reflex-M on the T-80U after the 93rd, for example. Agave-2 generally lives only on the serial commander T-80UK, on ​​the other 80s it was not.
            1. +1
              11 February 2014 21: 41
              Quote: AGM-114
              Do not buzz. Until the 93rd, everything was identical in terms of stuffing, then the differences went.
              Already in 1988, a welded turret began to be installed on some tanks in Kharkov, and it somewhat changed the look of the "UDeshka", since this turret was later installed on Kharkov vehicles everywhere ...
              And so .. T80 modification "U" appeared as a SYMBIOSIS of developments of Leningradskoog, Omsk and Kharkov design bureaus. In particular, for installation on the T80 chassis, a tower developed in Liningrad for the modernization of the T64 - ob. 476 was adopted ...
              1. +1
                11 February 2014 23: 08
                Quote: svp67
                T80 was adopted a tower designed in Leningrad to modernize the T64 - about.NUMX ...

                Is it true in Leningrad?
        2. +2
          11 February 2014 21: 10
          Quote: AGM-114
          The bottom line is that the T-80U and T-80UD have a lot in common (chassis, turret, electronics of the tank), and the differences are in the commander’s devices (due to the closed control room of the UDshka

          You are wrong, they are ABSOLUTELY identical, with the exception of the engine and MTO ... this is called unification.
          Here WHERE WHAT?
          1. Crang
            +1
            11 February 2014 21: 15
            Which below is the T-80UD.
            1. 0
              11 February 2014 21: 20
              Quote: Krang
              Which below is the T-80UD.

              Well done, and here
              1. AGM-114
                0
                11 February 2014 21: 22
                Obvious Abalone with LP-1 instead of the moon.
              2. Crang
                0
                11 February 2014 21: 26
                And here they seem to be both T-80U with "Agave".
          2. +1
            11 February 2014 21: 16
            By ZPU it is possible to distinguish. And so in such a projection they are very similar.
          3. AGM-114
            0
            11 February 2014 21: 18
            On both photos Udshka. Ears on the tower have tube trusses for an anti-aircraft machine gun.
            1. +1
              11 February 2014 21: 27
              Quote: AGM-114
              On both photos Udshka. Ears on the tower have tube trusses for an anti-aircraft machine gun.
              Yes, actually, in the second case, both T80U tanks, just the top with GOP ...
    7. 0
      11 February 2014 17: 04
      Long and expensive, and muscles were needed here and now.
  4. +1
    10 February 2014 09: 52
    Why should the author not try to formalize the improvements with a rationalization proposal at the same UVZ?
    I know the path is dreary and tedious. Having received a refusal, send it, for example, to the GABTU with a copy of the MO? With further publication of the answers here?
    A profit could already be considered the decision to create a prototype and its testing.
    1. +12
      10 February 2014 10: 30
      The author makes an attempt to give recommendations on how not to die in battle.
      Low bow! Soon all this can be very useful.
      He decided not to throw Ratsukha, but made concrete practical recommendations.
      1. 0
        10 February 2014 11: 11
        If these recommendations are correct, why not distribute them so that there are more of those who did not die in battle?
        Why it is impossible to check their correctness practically in polygon conditions?
  5. +4
    10 February 2014 09: 55
    Everything just corresponds to its time. T-72 tank of the 80s, 90s. Now the T-90 is already passing, Armata is logically replacing it. It is necessary to rearm the army on time. In general, the conflict in Syria showed that the T-72 for the local level of clashes is very good, and of course there is no against modern versions of Abrams.
    1. badger1974
      +1
      11 February 2014 00: 54
      armata like the famous T-34 from modern anti-tank systems and modern RPG grenades "naked as in a bath" without sophisticated passive and active protection in the complex,
      so why fence a garden with a 55-ton structure if it will be as "naked" as the t-72-90?
      1. 0
        12 February 2014 19: 15
        Quote: badger1974
        Why fence a garden with a 55-ton structure, if it is as "naked" as the T-72-90?

        Armata, even in the cheapest version, constructively provides greater crew survival (an armored highly protected capsule for the crew, protecting it not only from external influences, but also from an explosion of ammunition). Already for the sake of this, rearmament is worth doing.
  6. Dimsan
    +4
    10 February 2014 10: 08
    Question to the author! Did he come up with all this nonsense himself or did someone help? When I served in the 157th tank regiment, I don’t even remember the missiles in my tank !!! no, of course they are in general but in more modern models such as the T-72B3 but not in the T-72B. And the main thing is the phrase: "Get rid of cumulative shells completely" !!! - this is a masterpiece washed, if I remind you that a cumulative projectile penetrates its intended 800 - 1000 mm of armor, regardless of the range to the target, but armor-piercing projectiles have a giant minus - the further away the target, the less penetration! And there is no point in commenting on the rest about sobriety, etc. etc.
    1. 0
      11 February 2014 12: 13
      Quote: Dimsan
      : "Get rid of cumulative shells completely" !!! - this is a masterpiece of washing,

      You need to be more careful, the author offers to get rid of them in a city battle with an infantry armed with RPG-29. hi
  7. Crang
    +1
    10 February 2014 10: 30
    Quote: Dimsan
    I don’t remember the rockets in my tank !!! No, of course they are in general, but in more modern models such as the T-72B3 but not in the T-72B.

    Are you okay? The T-72B is equipped with the 9K120 Svir guided weapon system with semi-automatic laser guidance. Tank biathlon look what eh .... There is just a T-72B. There is a modification of the T-72B1 - everything is the same, only without missiles.
    Quote: Dimsan
    if I remind you that a cumulative projectile breaks through its 800 - 1000mm armor

    Far less. The missile also has a cumulative warhead. And penetrates much more than a cumulative projectile. Therefore, all cumulative shells are replaced by missiles.
    1. Dimsan
      +1
      10 February 2014 11: 09
      So I’m talking about this, most of the tanks were produced in the T-72B version without guided weapon systems and received the designation T-72-B1 - they are the majority in the army. Ask a loving servant in the tank units, except for those who served near Moscow and St. Petersburg, no one had guided weapons, so it’s not correct to say which is better to leave and what to throw away. And the charter, if someone reads, will not allow you to throw anything away, since half of the ammunition is NZ. And what shells to load is a private matter, and in each case there are recommendations.
      1. AGM-114
        +4
        10 February 2014 11: 13
        Quote: Dimsan
        except for those who served near Moscow and St. Petersburg

        So in the MBO and LenVO there was no T-72 at all, except in the 467th training manual and two dozen training T-72As in Tamanca.
      2. Crang
        +4
        10 February 2014 11: 27
        But in the article we are talking about the T-72B (i.e., with the CWF). What is wrong where?
  8. MAG
    +3
    10 February 2014 10: 59
    I wonder how all this will be done in parts? The battalion commander, "what are you doing with the tank? Lieutenant-" duck, until my move, I will not move. "Battalion commander," I’ll move you now, our rationalizer. "
    1. Crang
      +5
      10 February 2014 11: 29
      As the saying goes: "you will not take care of yourself, no one will take care of you."
      1. MAG
        +3
        10 February 2014 11: 35
        In the war, yes! and when it is not there who will give the tank from the general monotony to "modernize") and where in the field to get a plasma cutter?
        1. Crang
          +1
          10 February 2014 12: 11
          I do not know. Only at the nearest factory.
          1. M. Peter
            +3
            10 February 2014 19: 32
            Quote: Krang
            I do not know. Only at the nearest factory.

            winked Imagine a picture ?! laughing Checkpoint of some "nearest" plant, security at the checkpoint, here they declared war on the radio and then fuck it, the tank rolls up and the guy is so unobtrusive, citizens, you won't give me a cutter, the tanceg decided to shampoo until the commander sees ... wassat
            1. Crang
              +1
              10 February 2014 20: 00
              Take joy with such a client. War is war, but you also need to eat.
            2. +2
              10 February 2014 21: 50
              Quote: M.Pyotr
              nate hrenate

              I am a purely peaceful person and a civilian almost all my life, but in my practice, under some extremes (almost always peaceful), such as in winter the heating "ended", or with an electrician something similar - so I never talked to anyone, I took what I needed, He opened the premises as needed - so if the "war on the radio" - then pardon me, the guards either open the gate and push this tank to make it easier to ride, or sits under lock and key until the commander decides. And at the factory I do everything even faster than quickly, and no one cares about the expression on my face, as well as the form of ownership. This I, of course, not taking into account all the subtleties such as the Charter, expediency and so on, but only narrowly about the fact that when necessary, everyone will do everything.
  9. 0
    10 February 2014 11: 02
    Or maybe, nevertheless, for the conditions of urban battles, it’s time to adopt a special machine with the approximate protection of the tank, but with more diverse means of defeating the infantry. Moreover, there seems to be such a machine - the same BMPT. Of course, a 125 mm gun shreds buildings well, but ATGMs do this no worse and take up less space in the ammunition.
    Do not judge strictly - an amateur, not a pro.
    1. 0
      11 February 2014 17: 21
      just not like object 199, the APU is outside in a cardboard box, the cardboard tower, the elevation angles of the guns are insufficient, the guns themselves do not have rigid shells and are subject to barrel vibrations, a small selection of ammunition or fragmentation or armor-piercing, well, they seemed to solve the problem with missiles, but the rest stayed.
  10. +1
    10 February 2014 11: 10
    The T-72 might be outdated, but writing it off would be a mistake.
    It will be difficult to fight against the Abrams, but normal against the partisans and infantry (the Germans in the forty-first actively used the captured T-26, BT-7).
    1. +3
      10 February 2014 11: 15
      Quote: SarS
      The T-72 might be outdated, but writing it off would be a mistake.
      It will be difficult to fight against the Abrams, but normal against the partisans and infantry (the Germans in the forty-first actively used the captured T-26, BT-7).

      It is only necessary to find such infantry that will wait when it will be fought by tanks.
      1. +2
        10 February 2014 13: 24
        So in Syria than they are fighting with the Democrats.
        So T-72 they have modernized baskets with stones on the hull and tower.
      2. 0
        10 February 2014 13: 24
        So in Syria than they are fighting with the Democrats.
        So T-72 they have modernized baskets with stones on the hull and tower.
  11. extankist
    +2
    10 February 2014 11: 33
    I have not read such enchanting nonsense for a long time) laughing
  12. +1
    10 February 2014 11: 33
    I don’t understand why the mechanic would burst into the tower, his hatch of the hero is perfectly reset. Dear author, what machines did you serve and in what positions? It seems to me at least a regiment commander with unlimited powers to "fine-tune the loom" of the entrusted weapons and military equipment?
    1. extankist
      +3
      10 February 2014 11: 36
      Yes, he did not serve anywhere, played enough in "tanks", but read Wikipedia. Complete nonsense, it is impossible for such a resource as the military review to turn into a "yellow" military press.
      1. AGM-114
        +2
        10 February 2014 11: 44
        Quote: extankist
        as a military review to turn into a "yellow" military press.

        It has long been transformed. Mainly due to the politoty on the main and scoops-yksperds in the field of everything and everything in the comments.
        1. extankist
          +6
          10 February 2014 11: 55
          I even registered specifically to express my bewilderment. What struck me the most was the conclusions. Brick in the tank rack, throw away the keys, barefoot in the tank. But the water in the storage tanks instead of fuel is absolutely not knowledge, not even that, a lack of understanding of tactical and operational standards, not knowing the order of separation and support. Don't understand the structure that a tank is not a "personal fighter", but just a unit in a variety of means. Nobody will allow you to weld, weld, build on - combat readiness, even in conditions of hostilities, is punished by the commander mercilessly. An extra box of ammo can be thrown onto the tower. And no more. Where do these "onalytics" come from?
          1. Crang
            +7
            10 February 2014 12: 07
            Quote: extankist
            Nobody will let you weld, weld, build on - combat readiness,

            Only in peacetime. In the anarchy of a big war, a tank is both a "personal fighter" and a home. Do whatever you want. Upgrade whatever you want. The commander died a long time ago, and the high authorities are purple - do the main thing. Syria is an example for you.
            1. extankist
              +2
              10 February 2014 12: 18
              Have you participated in any war?
          2. +1
            10 February 2014 13: 19
            But isn't the tank rack now empty in battle? Moreover, in Chechnya the issue of autonomy was not a particular issue, and it was possible to load only shells in the AZ, and there wasn’t much fuel needed, since it was also not necessary to travel far.
            1. extankist
              +7
              10 February 2014 13: 27
              You generally understand what you are writing, the main part of the fuel inside the car (tank) is just in the shelving tanks. Watch carefully
              1. 0
                10 February 2014 14: 19
                As far as I understand, there is only one tank in the fighting compartment, and there are shells in it. And it can just be easily hit by breaking the tower from behind.
                1. +3
                  10 February 2014 17: 15
                  Quote: EvilLion
                  And it can just be easily hit by breaking the tower from behind.

                  The tank is not in the tower at all ... No. , and on the bottom of the tank body. It’s not easy to get there, if, of course, tankers (and their superiors) know how to fight.
                  Actually, the tank is actually 50% (if not more) filled with fuel and ammunition. And they cannot be removed and replaced with "bricks and expanded clay" laughing as the author of the article suggests. That's why he is a tank, and not, say, a Niva harvester. And it is very difficult to remove the crew from the w / n and fuel, so they are trying now in MBT on the Armata platform.
                  1. 0
                    10 February 2014 20: 36
                    You can remove everything, only the car will grow in size, if the "armata" is not more than 50 tons, then there can be no question of a serious breakthrough in this regard.
          3. Tank720
            0
            April 4 2014 19: 34
            Perplexity .... this is your point of view .... And I think that the article is very useful ... Because of people like you, people are dying ... Clever academicians ....
  13. 0
    10 February 2014 11: 49
    And another question - is there a danger to the crew only if the tank has full ammunition? And if a tank is knocked out of an RPG, for example, during its withdrawal from battle, when it comes with an empty ammunition, then for the most part the lives of tankers are little threatened?
    1. 0
      10 February 2014 12: 04
      And in both cases 50 to 50
    2. Crang
      +1
      10 February 2014 12: 09
      Fuel only. Well, or if the jet hits the tanker directly. The danger from BOPS is much higher here. But from kuma not so. If it doesn't "muffle", then nothing will happen. The main thing that tankers should be afraid of is their own firepower.
      1. extankist
        +1
        10 February 2014 12: 23
        Are you either a troll, or a specialist in all types of fire and steam, is your grandmother a multi-worker?
      2. 0
        11 February 2014 17: 26
        So TNT smoke is an extremely poisonous thing, once you breathe in and consider it poisoned to death.
  14. 0
    10 February 2014 12: 09
    T-80BV. He has:
    I would like to add -
    Remote-controlled ZPU.
    1. AGM-114
      +5
      10 February 2014 12: 21
      No. Out of all 80k, remote ZPU in Kharkov UDshka and UE-1. The T-80BV ZPU is just the case that does not withstand any criticism, such r # obviously still worth looking for.
  15. Crang
    -2
    10 February 2014 12: 15
    Quote: olegff68
    Remote-controlled ZPU.

    She say dick. Electronics is still old. There is no widescreen monitor. For the city, it is better to open the ZPU with an armored turret (open from above).
  16. PLO
    -1
    10 February 2014 12: 20
    pleased long barrel 125mm gun lol

    in general, the author’s level is understandable
    1. extankist
      +1
      10 February 2014 13: 21
      This is not the author, this is ... it’s hard to even find the words laughing
  17. extankist
    0
    10 February 2014 12: 22
    Quote: Krang
    Quote: olegff68
    Remote-controlled ZPU.

    She say dick. Electronics is still old. There is no widescreen monitor. For the city, it is better to open the ZPU with an armored turret (open from above).

    They say that chickens are milked. Before you say or draw a conclusion, you need to touch the levers for at least a month, turn the bunch of your hands left-right and up-down, look at the commander in the command and control station. Everyone imagines himself a strategist, seeing the battle from the side.
    1. Crang
      +1
      10 February 2014 12: 56
      But you have to think that you think you are, if not a "strategist", then a "professional" at least. Right?
      1. extankist
        +9
        10 February 2014 12: 59
        And why not, the first Chechen I went to the T-80 as a platoon commander without losing a single vehicle as standard, and I did not see more delirium than in this article.
        1. Crang
          0
          10 February 2014 14: 25
          Quote: extankist
          And why not, the first Chechen I went to the T-80 as a platoon commander without losing a single machine as standard

          This is not because the T-80 with protection is all right (it is even worse in this regard than the T-72, and much more), but because lucky. Serious Mochilov spared you and thank God.
          Quote: extankist
          and did not see more delirium than in this article.

          This article allows you to get rid of many of the shortcomings of the T-72B in terms of security and survivability.
          1. extankist
            +4
            10 February 2014 14: 36
            Read below, and advice - no need to write about what you have no idea. barefoot in the tank, this is something (
        2. Max_Damage
          -3
          11 February 2014 00: 45
          Maybe some stories will be corrupted? Write a story about your service.
          1. 0
            11 February 2014 17: 28
            It would be, by the way, not bad, I support, I love good stories.
        3. 0
          10 September 2014 02: 01
          I’ll support you, I’m not a tanker myself, but the little guy wrote a lot of nonsense; in the memoirs of our tankers from the time of the Second World War I read more than once that they loaded shells to the eyeballs and wrote that they managed to load almost 2 ammunition in the HF and outside the solariums carried as much as possible refueling (before the battle, they filled the tanks completely, and left the barrels in the rear), because they thought that only with full tanks and full ammunition in battle, otherwise, if you attack the captured positions, you will be beaten off until the rear approaches and reinforcements disappear.
          Well, for the amateur make-up artist, I’ll write the following — the tank designer is by no means fools who don’t see the obvious — when building booking options, they take into account the probability of being hit — after the battles almost ALL tanks that were destroyed and destroyed were described — the number of hits and penetrations. What were the penetrations made, whether there was a fire and what kind of damage was caused by the fire, plus an overall assessment of the damage and the possibility of eliminating it, there are quite a few photos from such reports that show how armor is broken through in chalk, their number and caliber — based on this, when calculating the reservation and the location of the ammunition are organized fuel tanks, according to statistics, these are the most invulnerable places themselves, and those who cry out about the explosiveness of the automatic loading machine forget that it was precisely thanks to this automatic machine that they were able to significantly reduce the vulnerable projections of the tanks by almost 1.5 times. It is difficult for analysts to understand that the creation of the tanks involves mathematicians calculating the probability of defeat and her betrayal when changing the design, therefore, I think that the T-72 tanks were optimized for their time and their specific application conditions.
          By the way, the screaming "pissed off all the polymers" I want to offer to watch videos taken by militants in Syria and posted in UT-in them T-72, even without DZ, can withstand several hits from grenade launchers and continue to fight, and about the video where from one shot from T- 72 the tower flies off - judging by the shot it was "Vampire" and if he happened to fly to Abrams or Merkava, something tells me that their towers also fly off in spite of all their wunderwales.
          And I think there’s nothing to criticize the T-72 for - at the time of creation it was one of the best tanks in its class in the world - at the moment it is living out the last 10-15 years in service and despite the fact that it has become vulnerable like the T-34 in 1944 still able to carry out its tasks
      2. extankist
        +3
        10 February 2014 13: 48
        Quote: Krang
        But you have to think that you think you are, if not a "strategist", then a "professional" at least. Right?

        I did not know what you wrote. Are you a tanker, honestly?
        1. +5
          10 February 2014 13: 59
          Greetings! hi Here on the site there are former tankers, respected Aleks tv, svp67, Alekseev
          1. extankist
            +3
            10 February 2014 14: 01
            Thank you, we will "philosophize"!)
            1. +1
              10 February 2014 14: 07
              Good luck! It's always fun to chat with practitioners. laughing
    2. +4
      10 February 2014 13: 01
      And you, as an experienced tanker, what do you suggest? What gave, on that and fight?
      So in August 2008, our fighters already fought with the Georgians on the T-62, put ordinary cobblestones over the armor and went into battle, not a fact that would help, but somehow it was calmer!
      Do you propose to expose and punish such improvisers in all severity of wartime?
      To criticize, it is of course always easier ... Sorry, if that ..
      1. extankist
        +6
        10 February 2014 13: 18
        What are we talking about now, about the T-62 or T-72 and its modifications?
        There will be a talk about the T-62, and I'll tell you about it, I had to serve on these good "old women" too. No commander will allow you to change the configuration of protection (which is), because it is constructively THOUGHTED, and any change is harmful - I know, I saw when the ATGM hit an inclined armor plate, and without encountering an obstacle on the way, ricocheted through the boxes of the tower's DZ , and if the box was lying, with cobblestones, an explosion -? empty triggering of remote sensing .. It seems to you that loading a box on the armor, you will do better. I tell you, in this case, you can bury access to the spare parts and accessories, or to the towing devices, or to the fuel filler neck. and this is all the time. And so on, you catch the thought. And yet, the rubber on the sides is better than the steel sheet, I had a total of 7 hits from the RPG on both sides and not one of them reached the armor in the area of ​​the AZ conveyor.
        1. Crang
          +2
          10 February 2014 14: 31
          Quote: extankist
          No commander will let you change the protection configuration (which is), because it is CONSTRUCTIVELY CONSIDERED,

          On stock tanks, it is not thought out. This is a compromise between protection and unclear weight restrictions. This modernization of the T-72B makes it possible to bring its protection almost to the level of the "Merkava" and even stronger. And don't care about weight (and up to a certain limit on speed). You, as a tanker, are not cold not hot from this weight. Many are very fond of T-80 tanks for their excellent driving characteristics. Well - while the T-72 is at war, you can go to the T-80 to participate in races or figure skating. And even get a prize. The low-cost modernization described in the article is just THOUGHT. You can do a lot there yourself. If the soldiers themselves cannot do this (they have no right), then you are the commander. Collect money, organize. Throw off. Why are you needed then? Don't you do it yourself and don't give it to others?
          1. M. Peter
            +3
            10 February 2014 19: 45
            Quote: Krang
            On the stock tanks she is not thought out.

            Word of the tank are you playing? From there and knowledge? wink
          2. +1
            11 February 2014 15: 42
            Quote: Krang
            the commander will not let you change the protection configuration (which is), because it is CONSTRUCTIVELY CONSIDERED, and any change is harmful

            Yes, of course, the changes should also be thought out, handicraft is often only for complacency, and even to the detriment (but not always, of course)
            Quote: Krang
            The low-cost upgrade described in the article is CONSIDERED. You can do a lot there yourself. If the soldiers themselves cannot do this (they have no rights), then you are the commander. Take off. Why then are you needed? Do not you do it yourself and do not give it to others?

            Brad. lol And the commanders have the right to cook different crap on cars, it is unclear whether it’s good or useless? Take off.Fuck ... wassat So far we will go along the path of increasing the security of MBT.
            The article only general, well-known, phrases. What is there, drawings, calculations, justifications?
            So babble, gleaned, perhaps by an attentive and interested, but amateur.
            Rђ RІRѕS, recommendations on what parts can do, say, the Research Institute of Tank Forces (if there is one), the State Academic Technical University, generalizing the experience of combat use, sensible, sort of books with drawings and instructions, would probably be useful.
        2. Crang
          -1
          10 February 2014 14: 56
          Quote: extankist
          I was miserable when the ATGM hit the inclined armor plate, and not meeting any obstacles on the way, ricocheted off the boxes of the turret DZ, and if the box were lying, with cobblestones, an explosion -?

          So that later your soldiers in battle do not litter the tanks with cobblestones, do NORMALLY BEFORE the battle. Like in the article.
          1. +2
            11 February 2014 15: 50
            Quote: Krang
            So that later your soldiers in battle do not litter the tanks with cobblestones, do NORMALLY BEFORE the battle. Like in the article.

            What a stubborn tank lover!
            In order, dear, to do "immediately normal", there are factories.
            And it’s impossible to do “everything is fine” using a handicraft method. Even with such any article in hand. Yes
            "If it weren't for higher education," you would understand this yourself. wink
    3. +5
      10 February 2014 14: 40
      Quote: extankist
      They say that chickens are milked. Before you say or draw a conclusion, you need to touch the levers for at least a month, turn the bunch of your hands left-right and up-down, look at the commander in the command and control station. Everyone imagines himself a strategist, seeing the battle from the side.

      good
      Your comments have a wonderful spirit, Andrey.
      I do not quite agree, but the essence is to the very point.
      I will not comment on this article, I left my opinion above ...
      Amazed at your exposure.
      drinks
  18. +2
    10 February 2014 13: 15
    Forget about all kinds of fireproof suits. Firstly, it’s very stuffy in them, which will accordingly affect performance. Secondly, they are so constrained by the movement that in the event of a fire, the T-72Б will not get out of the close combat compartment. To be in a t-shirt and sweatpants. On the legs are either sneakers or nothing (barefoot). A suit from burning charges will not save. Anyway, you’ll either burn it, or squeak there like potatoes.


    What are you saying! But the crews of flamethrower tanks in the Second World War used fireproof suits and only at the expense of them sometimes got out of hell into which the wrecked car turned. In addition, the main danger in the tank is not even fire, but a mass of secondary fragments that can occur even without breaking through the armor, so body armor is mandatory for the tanker.
  19. extankist
    +5
    10 February 2014 13: 34
    Quote: Krang
    Quote: olegff68
    Remote-controlled ZPU.

    She say dick. Electronics is still old. There is no widescreen monitor. For the city, it is better to open the ZPU with an armored turret (open from above).

    Yeah, to throw a brick on your head from above laughing
  20. extankist
    +3
    10 February 2014 13: 41
    Quote: AGM-114
    No. Out of all 80k, remote ZPU in Kharkov UDshka and UE-1. The T-80BV ZPU is just the case that does not withstand any criticism, such r # obviously still worth looking for.

    There was one very important innovation at Udeshka, it was the sighting and observation complex of the PNK-4C tank commander, which included the ZPU-7. We then implemented in a new machine, T-90MS.
    1. 0
      10 February 2014 20: 09
      These complexes are available, just on the "old" T-90. On the "breakthrough" (T-90MS), a ZPU from the "terminator" was installed - a 7,62 Kalashnikov machine gun with six boxes of belts immediately loaded through a special attachment to the machine gun ...
  21. badger1974
    +6
    10 February 2014 13: 49
    in principle, any tank is not without its drawbacks, anti-tank missile systems easily knock down the walking bunkers of the Merkava and somehow don't give a damn about chains, the abrams in conflicts mostly die from the old RPG-7 and in some cases from the DShKovsky 12.7mm (it's hard to even imagine this in the case of T-72), and at the Turkish tender the Ukrainian scimitar (Euro-tanned T-80) pulled out almost all the participants from the swamps, this is at high rates in firing
    to increase the survivability of the tank and efficiency, passive (curtain, ir-spotlights, thrush, arena) and passive complexes are necessary and passive, in the presence of such a complete mince 72 showed miracles of survivability, but installing an SLA according to the modern standard and improving the missile system will not give a chance for the battlefield to your huge Western counterparts, if you still think about automation of the anti-aircraft PCVT and equipping it with an infrared direction finder, in buildings this will be a huge plus
    1. extankist
      +7
      10 February 2014 14: 05
      I support, I always add in any "table" disputes - knowledge of each member of the crew of their functional responsibilities in terms of. Ie the training of the crew.
      1. badger1974
        +4
        10 February 2014 14: 28
        a good knowledge of the materiel base, tactical characteristics and frequent practice with the entrusted equipment and weapons always always leads to a high combination of man-weapons, and this, in turn, to the successful completion of a combat mission, there’s nothing to dispute,
        I mean, that modern ATGM and RPGs have no thick armor or how much, further increase in survivability only in passive protection combined with active protection, and with such protection there is an opportunity to cover the tank’s most vulnerable point at all times, especially since all modern ATGMs strive to please from the top
        1. +1
          10 February 2014 17: 36
          Quote: badger1974
          I mean, that modern ATGM and RPGs have no thick armor or how much, further increase in survivability only in passive protection combined with active protection, and with such protection there is an opportunity to cover the tank’s most vulnerable point at all times, especially since all modern ATGMs strive to please from the top

          The main thing in the crew of the tank and any other equipment is mutual assistance and interchangeability. You can protect yourself from any ATGM if you notice it in time.
          The army brought up a purely Russian - collectivism.
          1. badger1974
            0
            10 February 2014 23: 43
            I dare to assure you, the detection is the most difficult part in identifying, there is a detection complex (infrared, radar, optics), or infantry combat escort, that's all fun, when such a construction is mutual assistance, but just a tank with the further night light on the tank, you’re always on the lookout — the death of the Abrs and Chelhens is a confirmation of this, exactly like the T series (someone is there about who sees how much for whom)
  22. +2
    10 February 2014 13: 55
    D) Forget about all kinds of fireproof suits. Firstly, it’s very stuffy in them, which will accordingly affect performance. Secondly, they are so fettering movement,

    Power Engineer. The fourth year I go to Nomex. Either I don’t feel anything at all, or the garbage is written here. what
    1. Crang
      0
      10 February 2014 14: 23
      What is the heat +30 on the switchgear too? Then the terminator is true.
      1. +1
        10 February 2014 17: 53
        Quote: Krang
        What is the heat +30 on the switchgear too? Then the terminator is true.

        Firstly, they are very stuffy
        Just like in ordinary HB, 4 years ago, I feel the difference.
        Secondly, they are so fettering movement,
        Like regular HBs, 4 years ago, I feel the difference.
        at outdoor switchgear
        in RU, without overalls, a ticket will be lost.
    2. badger1974
      0
      10 February 2014 14: 38
      it’s better to be in a suit, better training than jumping out of a tank on a bare foot, such as getting a vampire in a T-72 in Syria (there is a video on the internet) you’ll be in a suit or without all, although if for some reason you throw it out ( in the same video) then there will be more chances
      1. sapran
        0
        11 February 2014 00: 53
        For the sake of interest, take into account the fate of that unfortunate man who threw the operator’s gunner out of the hatch video, and then you will talk about the training technique for running in a state of traumatic shock with 95% of your body burn ...
        (why do people only see a spectacular picture and never try to watch and read to the end ?!)
        1. badger1974
          0
          11 February 2014 01: 23
          where did you get that this is an operator, by the way who is the operator in the tank?
          1. sapran
            0
            11 February 2014 01: 26
            I understand that I’m smart and have nothing against it ... But if a person is thrown out of the place of a gunner, then somehow, by inert deed, I thought that he was one (so did you see the story to the end or read it?)
            1. badger1974
              0
              11 February 2014 12: 54
              if you looked the same as I did, then you could have noticed that the man who climbed out from under the tank before that lay under the engine compartment before the defeat, obviously this is a driver mechanic, because neither the gunner nor the commander under the engine compartment have anything to do, that's all that he was stuck with this shell shock — the further fate of these has two options — or more he will sit in the tank — or vice versa, but will destroy the grenade launchers, possibly even from the main caliber on direct fire
          2. 0
            11 February 2014 18: 55
            Quote: badger1974
            By the way, who is the operator in the tank?

            Not an operator, but a gunner-operator. The term began to be used after the emergence of CRM in domestic tanks.
        2. Crang
          0
          11 February 2014 08: 58
          Quote: sapran
          For the sake of interest, you take interest in the fate of that unfortunate man who, in the video from the gunner’s hatch

          What happened to him? Survived?
          1. sapran
            0
            11 February 2014 09: 34
            ... no. (despite a bunch of legends and sincere desire that he would survive) in general, a man ran with broken legs and a damaged spine ...
            1. Crang
              0
              11 February 2014 09: 38
              It is impossible to run with broken legs. It's not about pain. There’s nothing to run if your legs are broken. Who ever broke - knows this.
  23. wanderer_032
    +5
    10 February 2014 14: 15
    Quote: extankist
    And why not, the first Chechen I went to the T-80 as a platoon commander without losing a single vehicle as standard, and I did not see more delirium than in this article.

    So why do you who have combat experience and operating experience of such equipment do not share it with young people, but only criticize them. And then you whine that young people do not want to join the army.
    The guy in the article expressed his point of view on how he sees the strengthening of the T-72 defense for combat conditions in settlements, which may not be true everywhere, but generally interesting.
    And you just barked it and you yourself did not say anything sensible on this topic.
    1. extankist
      +3
      10 February 2014 14: 31
      unrespected (for rudeness), the training of the crew should consist of knowledge of the functional duties of the crew members, their knowledge of the BUSV-in terms of the implementation of the commander's instructions. INTERACTION. This is all you need to know, it's called BATTLE TRAINING and INTEGRITY, everything else is from the evil one. Further. There is no need to add anything extra to the design of the combat vehicle. And if you look at the pictures from the areas of hostilities, you are unlikely to see "mass" mockery of combat vehicles. Check it out, verification commissions, not only the regiment wandering around the firing positions, block posts and grunt commanders of all levels for all sorts of "excesses, and if you decide to hang a piece of iron on a tank or BMP, and it turns out to be successful, then all the cars of the regiment with your help, with your lack of sleep and the words "and the heck I blurted it out" will look the same in a week or two. Combat experience, this is a reaction honed by the experience of a real war, this is a reaction to shots, this is knowing how to sleep quickly, how to dig in quickly, etc. HOUSEHOLD, basically, which strains the nerves and brains. The same then syndrome. So do not whine, and do not piss, go to the army. love
      1. wanderer_032
        +4
        10 February 2014 14: 58
        I already served mine 12 years ago in the military service.
        I wrote this because for young guys who are of military age now and who still haven’t been desirous of serving (and even more so for those who are also interested in military equipment, for example, and perhaps have a desire to serve it), it would be interesting to hear about this technique people who dealt with her, and not empty idle talk and grumbling.
        So that they imagine for themselves at least a little what they can expect and what they may encounter during its operation.
        And it would be better if they were told by those people who touched and used it live, and if they fought again, then for them it is worth its weight in gold.
        Yes, and others will also be useful to know so that there is no misunderstanding.
        And then other "uncles" will tell them everything for you.
        1. wanderer_032
          +6
          10 February 2014 15: 07
          Sorry for the harshness.
          Write your articles, otherwise lately, VO is slowly turning into software.
          1. M. Peter
            +1
            10 February 2014 19: 53
            Quote: wanderer_032
            Write your articles, otherwise lately, VO is slowly turning into software.


            Plus, recently, by the way, about one thing and read politics. Articles about technology have become rare, therefore, the author of this article put a plus.
            1. badger1974
              0
              10 February 2014 22: 18
              I scratched my turnip for a long time and then I realized PO-Political Review, it’s so simple, don’t select topics with a similar form .... th and that’s it, there are a lot of excellent military-technical articles, try to extract information from them if it’s military -technical infa
      2. Crang
        +2
        10 February 2014 15: 03
        Quote: extankist
        You do not need to add anything extra to the design of the combat vehicle.

        I like this phrase most of all. What are the T-90A. What are the T-80U. We must still fight on the runoff T-72 and T-80 of the 70s. And Patam
        Quote: extankist
        You do not need to add anything extra to the design of the combat vehicle.

        And fuck for a real combat experience. Fuck on the real weaknesses of the machine identified in the course of obtaining this experience. Fucked on the living brain activity aimed at solving emerging problems. It’s very unpleasant, but it seems when they say that the military system of orders makes the military ...... not so far from the truth. And why do we win every war with huge losses?
        1. extankist
          +5
          10 February 2014 15: 11
          Listen friend, if you really fought, you would not write this nonsense. In the area of ​​hostilities, fighters sleep 50 to 50, that is, this is the order of service, they are on combat duty, and if serviced, they are on the SPPM regiment, and then after terrible damage. They - the soldiers have no time to crush a stone, no time to pour water into the shelving tanks, they will give you stars for a discarded wrench, there BUCKET is worth its weight in gold. What and where to buy there, there are really no cigarettes. What a parcel, there the electrode is valued more than a bottle of vodka. A winter crate is the best fuel. THERE OF shove wherever possible. Nobody is shaking over AZ, they don’t think about it there. For danger is used to.
          1. pawel57
            0
            10 February 2014 18: 53
            All sorts of wars happen.
        2. +3
          10 February 2014 22: 12
          What other combat experience? When a dude proposes to cheaply fill the tank with water through which the tank is filled with fuel, he comes up with cool screens that will be torn off along with the fenders in the first ditch (or the first time the DZ box is triggered) ... Even if you remove ALL additional charges from the tank, neither the commander nor will the gunner become more spacious (if someone was sitting in the tank).
          1. AGM-114
            +2
            10 February 2014 22: 29
            Quote: uwzek
            neither the commander nor the gunner will become more spacious

            And more convenient too. It was 2014, and the gunner was still bending his neck to use a night sight. Ergonomics in the fighting compartment of almost all the descendants of the T-64 is simply none, the exception is the T-90A and T-80UE-1, where instead of the sight based on the image intensifier tube, the normal night channel is in the form of a thermal imager to the main 1G46 sight.
          2. Crang
            -2
            11 February 2014 09: 02
            Quote: uwzek
            it’s cheap to fill the tank with water through which the tank is filled with fuel,

            I suggested first REDUCE THE FUEL SYSTEM. And then pour water. If you feel more comfortable and safer in the arms of gasoline / solarium fight - the flag in your hands.
            Quote: uwzek
            , comes up with cool screens that will rip off in the first ditch

            Tears off regular screens on the first ditch. And that is a fact. The fenders in the T-72 are not the same as in the T-34 or KV-1 of the two with corners. They are much stronger.
            Quote: uwzek
            Even if you remove ALL additional charges from the tank, neither the commander nor the gunner will become more spacious (if anyone was sitting in the tank).

            It will become a little more spacious.
  24. Leshka
    0
    10 February 2014 14: 35
    t-72 need to be replaced with more modern machines, they recaptured their
    1. badger1974
      +1
      10 February 2014 15: 15
      what do you say, star-striped your abra (from the 80s on deliveries) are not going to throw even into the trash despite obvious shortcomings, just like the non-Aarians Leo-2 (from the 80s), they even manage to push their countries on terms of providing all kinds of discounts, the Koreans and Japanese created on their basis have the same disadvantages
      T-72 continues to live, the only question is greed, otherwise the most modern, unparalleled passive and active defense systems would be not only on single samples, but on the entire fleet of tanks armed with the armed forces
      I don’t understand, what do you propose to change? if the richest countries do not want to do this, by the way nothing is yet to be created
  25. 0
    10 February 2014 14: 40
    Oh, these clown theorists ....
    Interestingly, the author has ever seen a tank alive? ..
  26. wanderer_032
    +2
    10 February 2014 14: 42
    Quote: extankist
    No commander will let you change the protection configuration (which is), because it is CONSTRUCTIVELY CONSIDERED, and any change is harmful



    The lack of protection of the turret aft in the form of a spare parts box led to penetration of the armor and the death of the tank commander in the battle for Grozny. January 1995 " (photo from the archive of V. Belogrud).
    1. extankist
      +4
      10 February 2014 15: 03
      You definitely read my reasoning when you answered. I wrote there something about the knowledge of the points of the BUSV concerning special conditions, that is, a battle in the city. You know what I mean. THE TANK SHOULD NOT BE PROJECTED by this RPG shot. The tank is a BREAKTHROUGH means, the main striking force of the ground forces. So, but with this in mind, in 1995, MASSOVO received lattice screens on the BM. Not themselves "planed" and "sculpted". Once again I say, No coercive measures will help if you do not organize competent management of the unit in accordance with the guidelines (no matter how office it sounds). The army is not only ATT-two, but also the observance of certain rules. You read the nonsense of the conclusions carefully. It will become funny.
      1. Crang
        +5
        10 February 2014 15: 26
        Quote: extankist
        TANK SHOULD NOT Turn this projection under the RPG shot. A tank, this is a BREAKTHROUGH tool, the main striking force of the ground forces.

        Unfortunately, the enemy’s actions are not provided for by our plans.
      2. wanderer_032
        +2
        10 February 2014 15: 29
        I also far from agree with the author of the article.
        But isn’t it better for him to correctly point out his mistakes so that he understands them and doesn’t write nonsense the next time.
        Now about the following.
        Quote: extankist
        THE TANK SHOULD NOT PROVIDE this projection for an RPG shot

        But the battles in the main points differ from the battles in the open area with a faster change of scenery due to shorter distances and a more limited review (especially for the attacking side). Intelligence obtained in advance, even after a rather short time, may lose its relevance.
        And to put the car forehead to the enemy in such conditions of the battle will not always succeed, as well as to hide the tank from enemy fire.
        About the impromptu defense, the guy is right, this was used during the battles in Berlin in 1945.
        t-34
        1. wanderer_032
          +4
          10 February 2014 15: 51
          t-72
          As for the T-72, these machines are actively used by the Syrian army at present in our points and due to the lack of materials to restore side screens and to further strengthen the protection of their 72s and BMPs, they are forced to twist as they can .
          1. wanderer_032
            +1
            10 February 2014 15: 55
            Here is another example:
  27. Dimsan
    +4
    10 February 2014 15: 05
    The author of course, I'm sorry but the article is garbage and no more !!!!
    1. I can’t imagine that three conscripts would lay out 150000 rubles for your improvements!
    2. Have you ever seen a tank from inside? where did you find the passage between the driver and the rest of the crew ????
    3. Leave the rear tanks in battle ??? You're crazy? in general, these are just two barrels with a solarium, they are used only on the march and no more, and before the battle they are either drained or completely removed!
    4. Pour water into internal tanks? and what do you ride? tanks are usually emptied over the tracks - look at your photo, everything is torn over the tank above the track but it didn’t burn, because there was no fuel! So many in Chechnya did!
    5. fill the brick in boxes, I agree from the part they did!
    6. But you don’t need to think about the ammunition, for tankers everyone has long thought about what and how much to take, THE CORRECT QUESTION IS LOGISTICS LIKE, WILL THE CHOKERS WILL CHOOSE WHAT? LOOK AT THE STORM OF THE KOMSOMOLSKY WHEN UNDERCALIBRATED APPLIANCES WERE NECESSARY AND THERE WASN'T NECESSARY, HERE AND TORNED. And they thought up the boxes there with sand, and even put the boxes from under the shells with sand, and throw sandbags on the tank.
    IN A GENERAL ARTICLE IN A BASKET, Nonsense AND EVERYTHING IS WRITTEN.
  28. +6
    10 February 2014 15: 06
    A wonderful article! .. The point is not even how much everything corresponds to one or another idea of ​​rationalism and technical details, but the fact that it launched a discussion that is very useful to read and is needed by all amateurs like myself ... And besides there is something to put aside in the "personal piggy bank", since certainly interesting and useful thoughts are present both in the material itself and in the comments. One feels that the person is sincerely concerned about and worried about the tank's survival in battle and the effectiveness of its use.
    Article plus!
  29. +5
    10 February 2014 15: 06
    The article is a collection of "parables about increasing the survivability" of the tank.
    Partly true, partly not. During protracted hostilities, they often "lay" on the requirement of the charter and other things. A striking example is 22 shells in AZ and 2-4 in reserve. Yes, amateur performance when hanging with handy means is quite frequent. And looking at the "bald" behind the B3 tower, and even with a box, I just want to fill it with sand what
    Quote: Krang
    A regular T-72B at the level of T-80BV. Somewhere better, somewhere worse. But in general, the T-72 series was more viable compared to the T-80. You understand - I agree that the T-80 has some advantages over the T-72.

    Since when?
    Gun brand 2A46M-1 or 2. Running smoothness. And a more modern Suo.
    Like it or not, the T-80 is better at least because of the chassis.
    And the undercarriage is not only "valuable fur", but the accuracy when firing on the spot. Considering that a stationary tank is a dead tank.
    Therefore, just upgrading the T-80 instead of the T-72 would be preferable, especially if they were put on the tower from the T-80 tower from the T-90ms. And optionally changing engines for the region.
    And so judging by the news. By 2015, only the T-72 and T-90 will remain in the army. Those. for the most part the T-80 out of order (of which about 1 thousand before the reform was) will be changed to T-72B3 and suddenly? T-72B - the pace of B3 is not so fast request
    1. Crang
      +1
      10 February 2014 16: 27
      Quote: gallville
      Like it or not, the T-80 is better at least because of the chassis.

      So the T-72 has a better suspension. It is stronger, more reliable and better shields the tank.
      AZ T-72 is much better than the MZ T-80.
      The OMS of the T-80BV is better than that of the T-72B, but at the present stage of development of armored vehicle control systems this advantage is insignificant. For example, the Guinness world record for the range of hitting a single point target belongs to ... who do you think? T-62 with the most oblique gun according to the passport! One T-62 was destroyed by the first ATGM round from a distance of 5600m. Another (with a cannon) shoot down a UH-1 "Hugh Cobra" helicopter.
      1. +1
        10 February 2014 16: 49
        Quote: Krang
        So the T-72 has a better suspension. It is stronger, more reliable and better shields the tank.

        In addition to a more reliable bonus is not observed. With competent service organization, the bonus is barely traceable. Therefore, it was not for nothing that the Papuans were mentioned here, they have a quality of service just under the T-72. For this, it was created as a mobilization tank for reservists (exploiters and maintenance personnel), in the 21st century the situation is somewhat different.
        In what places is it better to screen? With a generally similar layout, do not mislead people. I'm not saying that the quality of the alloy of armor for the T-80 should have been higher (I don’t know how exactly reliable sources I didn’t see, but it’s very difficult to determine by touch).
        But the smoothness and "shaking" lead to many factors at once, from accuracy in battle to crew fatigue on the march.
        Quote: Krang
        AZ T-72 is much better than the MZ T-80.

        Here the taste and color. Although I would choose AZ - mz was once pushed by lobbyists from the T-64. It was possible to replace the T-80 mz with the az. In B3, they also "modernize" AZ. What's the difficulty?
        The difficulty is that UVZ "does not pull" the technological chassis of the T-80, so the T-90A is essentially a T-72 with a new engine and an MSA (originally from the T-80). It's like stuffing a stronger engine into a Moskvich and changing the panel - this won't stop him being a Muscovite. And the Omsk plant could not pull the volume, so it switched to the repair of the T-72.
        Hence personally my fears regarding the Almaty - most likely the running biggest problem for production at UVZ and my strong suspicion that it will come from just the T-80 rather than from the T-72 - and this is fundamentally a different production culture.
        Quote: Krang
        The LMS of the T-80BV is better than that of the T-72B, but at the present stage of development of BTVT control systems this advantage is insignificant.

        At the moment, this "insignificant" will be leveled out in 2015 completely. Those. there is a rollback down.
        1. Crang
          0
          10 February 2014 16: 58
          Quote: gallville
          In what places is it better to screen?

          Firstly, the MZ of the T-80 tank has a much larger area than the AZ T-72. Secondly, the small T-80 track rollers do not screen the MZ at all (they are obtained below). All hope for the on-board screen, which by the way is devoid of elements of remote sensing. The T-72 AZ is flat, partially shielded by track rollers. Yes, plus a screen with elements of remote sensing. The probability of undermining the BC in the T-72 through the backache is several times lower.
          Quote: gallville
          It was for this purpose created as a mobilization tank

          Created as an improved version of the T-64. And it became the main one due to its obvious advantages. Koshkin also said: "It is very difficult to do it simply."
          Quote: gallville
          the quality of the alloy armor for the T-80 was supposed to be higher

          The same.
          Quote: gallville
          From here, personally, my fears regarding the Almaty are most likely the running biggest problem.

          We bet that the "Armata" road wheels are likely to be taken from the T-72/90?
          1. +1
            10 February 2014 17: 15
            Quote: Krang
            Firstly, the MZ of the T-80 tank has a much larger area than the AZ T-72.

            This is the only subjective flaw of the T-80. By the way, when shot in the forehead of the T-80, the chance of detonation is less precisely because of the MOH. The ability of the T-72 was demonstrated by the Americans in Iraq. Let T-72 there were export essence does not change the penetration of armor when fired under the tower gives the detonation of the kit.
            On board I agree. All this is decided by the banal replacement of the Ministry of Health with AZ. In B3, the old AZ is replaced with a new AZ. Structurally, the T-80 could have AZ. Those. the problem is getting it to the right level.
            Quote: Krang
            All hope for the on-board screen, which by the way is devoid of elements of remote sensing.

            In B3, he is also deprived. Feel the difference?)) Add the screens no such problem.
            Quote: Krang
            It was created as an improved version of the T-64.

            As a simplified version of the T-64. As a result, the suspension turned out to be better due to reliability. On the other hand, the T-64 is a tank for the war in Europe. He was not supposed to jump in the mountains and swamps. But the armament complex on the T-64 is more powerful.
            Quote: Krang
            We bet that the "Armata" road wheels are likely to be taken from the T-72/90?

            Rollers are truly a "technological product" laughing

            Due to the more technologically advanced chassis and basic configuration, the T-80 has a greater reserve for modernization.
            Put everything that they put on the B3 in the T-80, the car was much better (at least for the commander’s sight).
            And due to the installation of 2 types of engines and more versatile.

            But someone wanted to create a "new generation" tank, although everyone is extending the terms of this generation of tanks. Moreover, just as a result of the wars, it was the tanks that the military had the least claims against the background of armored personnel carriers and BMPs.
            Despite the fact that in the LMS from the tanks of the current generation, the armory of the vryatli will be very different as well as in fire power. For that, the development and urgent launch of a series of grandiose drank, silent about finances to eliminate childhood diseases and an attempt to penetrate the niche of BMP - an even more controversial area.
            1. +3
              10 February 2014 18: 08
              Quote: gallville
              This is the only

              Trying in vain. Crang is not susceptible to this.
              I will give him a link
              http://flibusta.net/b/351370

              let it be pleased. While the collection of opinions on this book is negative, but he likes it.
            2. Crang
              +1
              10 February 2014 18: 11
              Quote: gallville
              Put everything that they put on the B3 in the T-80, the car was much better (at least for the commander’s sight).

              Maybe it's easier to put on the T-72 GTE?
              Quote: gallville
              Due to the more technologically advanced chassis and basic configuration, the T-80 has a greater reserve for modernization.

              Her. T-72 is better. He even looks cooler.
              Quote: gallville
              Despite the fact that in the LMS from the tanks of the current generation, the armory of the vryatli will be very different as well as in fire power.

              As well as all the promising imported tanks. Do you know why? Leading countries vtikhara agreed that, in order to prevent tanks from turning into Mouse-like giants, it is forbidden to put large-caliber cannons. The limitation is the existing calibers. Only projectiles can be upgraded. Well, the guns themselves. That is why ours hacked objects 292 and 195. That is why the pendenses hacked down projects of healthy Abrams with 140mm cannons. It is reasonable. Further growth of caliber is no longer real without a significant increase in size. And nobody needs it.
              1. +2
                10 February 2014 18: 16
                Quote: Krang
                Her. T-72 is better. He even looks cooler.

                )))))))))))
                at least yes, you’ve already been bothered today)))
                1. Crang
                  0
                  10 February 2014 18: 21
                  There is something to answer this photo:

                  T-72B
                  1. +1
                    10 February 2014 18: 28
                    BUGA ha is not even funny. Contact-1 and wretched MSA)))
                    linear BV will do this

                    Did you pay attention to the link to the book? A couple of comments above?


                    and changed with trawls? not that coat?
                    1. Crang
                      0
                      10 February 2014 20: 08
                      Kars do not cover the subject with pictures of "Chicken" with a boosted engine from Izh-Planet-3. We have two tanks competing with each other, T-72B and T-80BV. The T-64 has already been cut.
                      1. +1
                        10 February 2014 20: 59
                        Quote: Krang
                        Kars do not cover the subject with photos of "Chicken" with a boosted engine from Izh-Planet-3

                        Well, what if it is cooler than the t-72.
                        and so what?
                        Quote: Kars
                        and changed with trawls? not that coat?

                        ??
                        Quote: Krang
                        We have two tanks competing with each other T-72B and T-80BV.

                        Where do they compete? You have pretty T-72B-3 and T-90.
                        And when did the T-80 have time to cut it?
                      2. Alexander D.
                        +1
                        11 February 2014 00: 42
                        Quote: Krang
                        Kars do not cover the subject with pictures of "Chicken" with a boosted engine from Izh-Planet-3. We have two tanks competing with each other, T-72B and T-80BV. The T-64 has already been cut.

                        Following the new Oplot, the modernized T-64 tank entered the world export market. A contract has been signed with one of the African countries. A solid order, which Kharkiv Armored Plant began to execute, for several dozen vehicles, is a further option.
                        Vladimir TKACH, Defense Express
                      3. +1
                        11 February 2014 00: 50
                        Quote: Alexander D.
                        A solid order, which began implementation of the Kharkov Armored Plant

                        good news
            3. +1
              12 February 2014 20: 06
              Quote: gallville
              ... All this is decided by the banal replacement of the Ministry of Health with AZ ...

              Well, if we recall that the conveyor (first stage ammunition rack) of the MZ is a component of the tower, and the AZ has a conveyor located on the bottom of the tank (by the way, it is much more rigid for the T_72-90 than for the T-64-80, due to the more complex relief), then to call the replacement of one for another call a "banal replacement" I would not turn my tongue.
          2. sapran
            0
            10 February 2014 20: 13
            Argue about what ?! If you have already considered the option of altering the T-90 undercarriage for road wheels Ob.219 AS. You try to replace the road roller on the T-72/90 and on the T80 with the help of the "handles" of the crew, then "star" about the "Heracacles" in the tank troops.
            In addition, please do not confuse "soft" with "warm" with regards to the design and placement of DZ on the T72BV and T-80BV side screens, I will not say anything about the older T-64BV and the newer T-80U and T80UD T-90A ...
            1. AGM-114
              -1
              10 February 2014 20: 21
              Quote: sapran
              If you have already considered the option of altering the running T-90 for track rollers Ob.219 AC

              There still arises the problem of the wretchedness of the T-72 / T-90 chassis. Where telescopic shock absorbers are used in the 219 / 478B, in the Tagil tanks they are petal-mounted and cannot be replaced in any way, too much will have to be redone. Without this, the installation of support rollers of a smaller diameter (that is, the 219th) is meaningless. There is no soft running.
        2. 0
          10 February 2014 23: 03
          They didn’t roll armor at tank factories in Russia, neither in Tagil, nor in Omsk, nor in St. Petersburg ... They also did not do it in Kharkov. It is the same on all tanks. On older cars it is better than on new ones (the fact of shelling is confirmed).
          I can’t imagine what you mean by the chassis. For a tank, this is a combination of the geometric dimensions of the height of the axles of the track rollers, the elasticity of the torsion bars and hydraulic shock absorbers, and much more. I mean that no one will change the technological equipment and remodel the hull of the tank for mythical advantages, without a state order, and without it the state itself will not allow it - the equipment is unique ...
          The chassis of the "Armata" is just the most run-in part of it - it has been run-in for almost twenty years now - this is the notorious T-95 ...
      2. sapran
        0
        10 February 2014 20: 06
        Sorry /, but they wrote nonsense! Have you ever been in a tank? (I will not say anything about the banal performance of the full-time shooting exercise?) It would be completely different if you wanted to point out that the T90A-type FCS developed on the basis of the complex from Ob.219 AC practically eliminated the Tagil vehicles lagging behind Omsk (Leningradsky and Kharkiv).
        The tonage margin is excellent, but there is, but it is associated with an increase in the specific pressure on the ground, and everyone "sailed" ...
  30. +2
    10 February 2014 15: 20
    I am not a tanker, and I will not be able to evaluate the veracity of the T-72's flaws. But the approach itself is not only to show flaws, but also to give OWN (possibly controversial lol ) recipe fix! It is right. And in the discussion of the tank crew’s colleagues, everything is polished. I wish the tank builders read these materials too. lol
    1. 0
      10 February 2014 17: 20
      Quote: xomaNN
      I'm not a tanker

      You can't even imagine yourself at the place of the infantry, which this tank should support. And this "tankman" is a bad person. Not knowing the Charter, technicians, not caring about the infantry covering his box.
  31. mvv
    mvv
    -1
    10 February 2014 15: 23
    Good article! That's just one-sided in my opinion. Let me explain: if the task is to support the infantry during the assault n / a - this is one layout, both by b / n, and by their purpose (for example, there is no need to throw out the "extra" b / n if the tank stands on the "point" and pounds on the identified fire points of the enemy), if it is a reconnaissance search of the enemy with its subsequent destruction - completely different types of ammunition should prevail. there can be no single recipe. For example, missiles run out, and if you act apart from your unit, where can you get them? and with fuel the same can happen again. And as an example for storming the city, this tank upgrade is beyond praise. I would have thrown such little articles to my familiar tankmen at one time, if they had not dissected through Chechnya on 64k. wink
  32. USNik
    -2
    10 February 2014 15: 33
    The article is slag, the author writes to order.
    Side projection protection. It is characterized by the phrase: powerful, but unreliable.
    Paraphrasing the name of this, not original and written under tracing paper, an opus can be obtained:
    Technical knowledge of the writer. It is characterized by the phrase: extensive, but stupid.
    The passage about Teshka’s weak 80mm side armor (all along) looks especially touching against the background of the patchwork 30-50mm booking of Abrashi ...
    1. Crang
      0
      10 February 2014 15: 49
      Quote: USNik
      The passage about Teshka’s weak 80mm side armor (all along) looks especially touching against the background of the patchwork 30-50mm booking of Abrashi ...

      "Abrashka" has a 32mm + 25,4mm board + an air gap (under the goose) + 65mm composite screen. Total even without air - 122mm.
      1. +1
        12 February 2014 20: 20
        Quote: Krang
        + 65mm composite screen ....

        The so-called "composite screen" pierced by fragments.
        By design, it looks like a Chinese tin apartment door.

        Abrams Corps. The thickness of the side armor is clearly visible (this is where we have 80mm)
  33. +1
    10 February 2014 15: 42
    First of all, thanks to the author for the work, it was interesting! I also want to say that the constructor we have, thank God, are not "stupid people" yet ....
    What I myself think is true is the removal of ammunition into an external box, the shield on the machine gun, and anti-cumulative screens on the turret and sides
  34. +4
    10 February 2014 16: 08
    My friends, but I like the article!
    Firstly, I myself sewed unloading, because according to the charter, I was put on an idiotic pouch.
    Secondly, our BTR-70 made its way through the B-32, like cardboard.
    Thirdly, there were no anti-personnel rounds to RPG-7V, but they do exist.
    All this made us sew, weld, tie, tighten.
    So, the author is a plus, and those who are responsible for the modernization should pay attention to the comments of the "user"
    1. Crang
      +2
      10 February 2014 16: 51
      Exactly. Design thought should keep pace with modern realities, and not lag behind a generation, as is often the case. The technical solutions used in the design of weapons should not only correspond to the "official" TK, but also take into account how you correctly said the opinion of ordinary users. And what's the problem here? The acceptance of the new tank at the state level is carried out by the selection committee. You are responsible for accepting your work. You all the bonuses from this work. You also have to pay for some mistakes if that.
  35. Dimsan
    +3
    10 February 2014 16: 13
    Quote: MahsusNazar
    My friends, but I like the article!
    Firstly, I myself sewed unloading, because according to the charter, I was put on an idiotic pouch.
    Secondly, our BTR-70 made its way through the B-32, like cardboard.
    Thirdly, there were no anti-personnel rounds to RPG-7V, but they do exist.
    All this made us sew, weld, tie, tighten.
    So, the author is a plus, and those who are responsible for the modernization should pay attention to the comments of the "user"

    What is the connection between your pouch, armored personnel carrier 70, RPG 7 and this article about the tank ????
  36. +4
    10 February 2014 16: 59
    Based on the course of the discussion, the following conclusions can be drawn: 1. Very bad feedback between the industry that produces tanks and those who operate them. This is due to the fact that now enterprises are thinking about the maximum profit in order to ensure their existence, this can only give the release of new equipment and not the modernization of old ones. 2. The question of priority, because it is very difficult to admit that a boy soldier or officer gave a sensible proposal that the manufacturers did not think of, before the USSR Ministry of Defense published entire magazines for such restless ones, for example: "Inventor and Rationalizer", "Military Bulletin", etc. , now it is not 3. Bureaucratic apparatus. An official, by his nature, does not accept the new, since he is always guided by the principles of the inviolability of the existing state of affairs, no matter how something happens and suddenly he may become unnecessary. 4. The system of patents does not work at all, especially their introduction into production. In this regard, an example of an inventor from Baumanka, who for more than twenty years invented a fragmentation-beam projectile for a tank, now it is adopted for service abroad in a number of Western countries, with the exception of Russia. This is our problem under discussion.
  37. USNik
    +1
    10 February 2014 17: 01
    Quote: Krang
    Quote: USNik
    The passage about Teshka’s weak 80mm side armor (all along) looks especially touching against the background of the patchwork 30-50mm booking of Abrashi ...

    "Abrashka" has a 32mm + 25,4mm board + an air gap (under the goose) + 65mm composite screen. Total even without air - 122mm.

    Crang, you took the "naked" T-72 armor, if you please, and on the Abrams m1A1, do not take into account the air and screens with tracks. Seriously arguing with you, in the light of such a "joke" article, is useless, so here's a "joke" memo for the owners of ancient RPGs and large-caliber weapons, starting from 12.7mm:
    1. Crang
      +1
      10 February 2014 17: 19
      I will disappoint you. Ancient RPGs most likely will not break the zones indicated in the figure. Unless incapacitate devices and machine gun installation. Here you need a minimum of RPG-7 with a tandem warhead at a grenade.
  38. +1
    10 February 2014 17: 13
    This situation, of course, has the most negative effect on the psyche of crew members, forcing them to sometimes leave a still perfectly operational and combat-ready tank.
    When family and children are behind, this will not stop. Examples: rams during the Second World War. And in local incomprehensible wars. I agree.
    Fire Control System 1A40-1.
    Agrees that it is out of date
    Also on the T-72B it is very easy to "get lost" in an unfamiliar place.
    And to hell with a tank commander (tv, tr, tb)? If he did not study the place of application in advance and did not bring it to his subordinates, then for what he receives money
    The commander has a very vague idea of ​​the tactical situation on the battlefield, because It has only voice information from the radio station R-173.
    Is this not enough? Given the preparation for the battle, the previously worked out rallying of the units (everyone should understand everything without going on the air). 173 only for the introduction of adjustments. I remind you for ... about the RERiREP facilities, which do not depend on the means of electronic warfare delivered to (in this case, the tank) (this also applies to GPS)
    Side projection protection:
    the most important flaw. The 10-mm rubber-fabric side screen is too frail, and the attachment to the case is weak. Even under the weight of the KNDZ elements, he bends. Tearing this screen about an obstacle is as easy as shelling pears.
    Have you tried to observe the DD rules? If the driver at the helm, then no hitch will remain.
    And at the same time: 4C20 elements cover the screen not to the full length, but only to MTO.
    Those. everything is done to protect the crew.
    Aft projection protection. Yes, it’s not always possible to keep the tank’s forehead turned towards the enemy. Especially when the enemy is everywhere, which often happens in conditions of urban battle with poorly coordinated interaction with infantrymen. Protection of the aft projection of the T-72B - none. Just none.
    And you adhere to the doctrine of Tukhachevsky: when the tanks are separate, the infantry separately? Read the combat manuals of the USSR Armed Forces. If your commanders were popolizy and dolbyotyaty, then accept my condolences.
    But ZPU "Utes" can really be criticized. She has no remote control.
    I agree. It’s hard to get out from under brogues. But what if to save your own?
    Summarizing all the above drawbacks, it can be stated with regret that the T-72B tank is well suited for a decisive tank battle on a collision course and for defeating single objects. But pretty bad in urban combat. Loaded with a variety of machine guns and dull heavy armor around the circle "Abrams" and "Merkava" here will be better. Not to say that invulnerable than T-72B, but somehow reliable, or something.
    In urban, and in any battle, the main thing is competent use. ALL tanks are on fire.
    Power point. 84 hp B-1-840 engine coupled with a seven-speed manual gearbox allows you to reach speeds of 60 km / h, but they do not provide the ease of control and driving performance that modern western tanks have. T-180B will not be able to quickly turn 72 degrees in a narrow lane. On the other hand, this characteristic of mobility has no direct relation to the purely fighting qualities. But the T-72B has good cross and there is a lot of it that can withstand / raise.
    Sorry, but tanks are not designed for fighting in cities. A cross is good.
    Events
    Where did you copy it from?
    All normal tankers are required to know how to protect themselves and the lives of supporting units (in local wars), and in global ones, to fulfill the task of protecting the air defense and strategic missile forces (NKVD troops)
    1. Crang
      0
      10 February 2014 17: 30
      And I know I don’t want to depend on the Vodyatly, DD, popolizy and dolbyatyatly. And even more so I do not want to die because of them. I don’t want to die for my country, but I want the enemy to die for his own. Therefore, I’m better prepared. God saves man, who save himself. You need to prepare your tank for war so that it can compensate for the enemy’s professionalism, driver’s inexperience, idiotic decisions by popolises and dolbyotyat, as well as the lack of interaction with his infantry for this reason.
      1. 0
        10 February 2014 23: 33
        Therefore, do not load ammunition and fuel in the car, sprinkle your Bolivar with an eight-meter layer of brick chips (you can use expanded clay), take off your outer clothing and fight (just don’t drink) ...
  39. DZ_98_B
    -2
    10 February 2014 17: 15
    Need a diesel !!! need a powerful diesel !!!! Well buy it. well, steal from the Germans or the Israelis. !!!!!!!
  40. Crang
    -1
    10 February 2014 17: 17
    Quote: USNik
    Crang, you took the "naked" T-72 armor, if you please, and on the Abrams m1A1, do not take into account the air and screens with tracks.

    I have to disagree. On the Abrams M1, the force shield is very powerful and has proper attachment to the body. That is, it is, as it were, an integral part of the design of the tank. Have you ever seen that "Abrams" went with the screens removed or torn off? At least once. You can rummage in the Internet, I'm sure you will not find a single such photo in combat conditions. Because the "Abrams" screens are normal, and not made of shit like our tanks. And now look at the state of the side screens of our tanks. Let's say during the Chechen wars. At least T-72, at least T-80. All crumpled, crumpled, twisted, and often completely or partially torn off. That is why I raised this topic, describing the T-72B onboard protection as powerful but unreliable. According to the passport, the T-72B has everything cultural: 80mm + air gap (for a goose) + 10mm rubber-fabric screen + elements of KNDZ 4S20. The equivalent is obtained in the area of ​​250-300mm. Well, "Abrashka" is somewhere the same. But in reality, the Abrams board works as it was intended in the design bureau. And our screens tear and remain with the sides covered only with bare 80mm armor. I described how it turns out. Therefore, he proposed to reconstruct this shit, replacing it with normal steel side screens. I'm right?
    1. M. Peter
      0
      10 February 2014 20: 09
      Quote: Krang
      Have you ever seen that "Abrams" went with the screens removed or torn off? At least once. You can rummage in the Internet, I am sure you will not find a single such photograph in combat conditions. Because the "Abrams" screens are normal, and not made of shit like our tanks.


      Torn screens.

      1. +1
        10 February 2014 20: 47
        Quote: M.Pyotr

        Torn screens.


        Moreover, this is a desert area. And the city with active actions, they would have undressed even faster.
        1. Crang
          +2
          11 February 2014 07: 58
          Who are you trying to fool here? Me or yourself? I asked for a photo of a serviceable, efficient "Abrams" driving in a combat situation with screens torn off or removed. They brought me. In the top photo, a destroyed tank with a screen pierced knows what. In the bottom photo, the screen is simply folded back for maintenance.
          1. badger1974
            +1
            11 February 2014 14: 33
            it is not customary for stars and stripes to drive in combat conditions on equipment that does not meet the manufacturer’s operating recommendations, so strictly, the State Department pays for the cowboy’s head in combat 10000 Bahleigh per day, not counting feeding that cannot be without Pepsi or Coca, in case of death Such loot is finally paid utterly, it is necessary to fight with comfort, and not tyrsu in tanks - to fill up racks, by the way the grates on the towers of abrs and other equipment are just for mechals with soil
  41. +4
    10 February 2014 17: 19
    A GPS navigator that uses a non-army frequency is to immediately get a rocket from a helicopter in case of war with the USA
    1. wanderer_032
      +3
      10 February 2014 18: 33
      You definitely noticed about the navigator, it is better to forget about the GPS channel in the event of a global conflict. However, as well as about GLONASS too.
      It may make sense to have an autonomous navigator on board into which the user himself can "drive" the coordinates he needs, thereby "tying" it in space.
      And work from GPS / GLONASS systems as an additional option to have and with the beginning of the "big war" to disable and block these channels, and work autonomously.
      Foreign information for such devices is now quite enough for their autonomous work.
      Such a facility will undoubtedly be useful to any commander (at least on TV, at least in the infantry).
      You can make it removable, with autonomous power and to the battery. it was possible to recharge from the solar battery.
  42. Crang
    +2
    10 February 2014 17: 22
    Quote: Bad
    A GPS navigator that uses a non-army frequency is to immediately get a rocket from a helicopter in case of war with the USA

    No. By the way, now there are already GPS / GLONASS navigators.
  43. +2
    10 February 2014 18: 16
    Dear Colleagues. I do not quite understand why breaking through the open door. I myself am not a tanker, rocket launcher, but even at school 45 years ago I was taught that the Berlin operation is a textbook example of what is NOT NECESSARY to do. No need for tanks to fight in settlements. Tanks are not intended for this. And to come up with something here is very difficult. The very circumstances of the battle are as follows.
    So, maybe not to engage in a circle of "skillful hands", but simply use the tanks there, what are they intended for?
    Here is a former tanker (extankist) and it offers. He suggests that the commanders simply train their soldiers, master the skill of using their weapons in combat, and be guided by the Battle Charter. And also the Maintenance Regulations.
    1. Crang
      +1
      10 February 2014 18: 37
      Tanks reduce losses in manpower by an average of 20 times. Including in the city. Tanks are very necessary in the city, but they must be able to be used there. Here you need competent and close interaction with the infantry. When they took Berlin, ours already knew how to, and therefore the losses were not as big as they could be. In the recent history of the Chechen wars, they have forgotten how to do it - the result is a bunch of corpses and steaming scrap metal. But the Syrians know how to fight on tanks in the city. Bottom line: they take the area after area, destroy one group of militants after another, almost without loss of manpower and tanks. Carry of course, but minimal.
    2. +2
      10 February 2014 18: 38
      Quote: AlexA
      I myself am not a tanker, rocket launcher, but even at school 45 years ago I was taught that the Berlin operation is a textbook example of what is NOT NECESSARY to do

      I hope that it was also explained how to take Berlin.
      Enlighten hi
      1. badger1974
        +2
        11 February 2014 14: 48
        take in a lap and starve to death, and at this time to advance the occupation zone deep into Europedia. Well, something like this, and to finish off Wenka so that the brown Nazi scum that remained would not emerge in the west
        1. +2
          11 February 2014 19: 12
          Quote: badger1974
          take in the lane and starve to death

          Do not confuse with the 6th army of Paulus?
          Quote: badger1974
          and at this time to advance the occupation zone deep into Europedia. Well, something like this, and to finish off Wenka so that the brown Nazi scum that remained would not emerge in the west

          In the troops of Konev and Zhukov, there was an undersupply of l / s, especially in the infantry. It is normal for tankers to have 3 people per tank. Even Goebbels noted this fact in his death notes. So there was no reason to give the initiative into the hands of the 200 Berlin garrison to break through with concentrated forces. And in Austria and Czechoslovakia, the million-strong group of the Wehmahat continued to fight. And on the Kurland Peninsula the blockaded Kurland grouping of more than 100 thousand people continued.
          1. badger1974
            0
            11 February 2014 20: 21
            no, I don’t confuse, as you say, 200 thousand garrisons, this is mainly Volkssturm, the main group was on a baloton, and kurland and kyonik were doomed, and they amertmi helped with their Arden problem and put the people, well, judge my opinion, history right on the grounds that it’s history, now ... ass, here you have to make mistakes, and they are mistakes one by one, equipping in the 21st century the armament of the councils of 30 years ago, this is a mistake
            1. +2
              12 February 2014 02: 55
              Quote: badger1974
              no, I don’t confuse, as you say, 200 thousand garrison, it’s basically Volkssturm

              Come on...
              Some boys and grandfathers armed with a prodigy wunder ...
              Do not be so immoral in relation to the memory of 57 thousand soldiers and officers of the Red Army and both Polish troops who died in the Berlin operation.
              "Berlin 45th: Battles in the den of the beast". Author A. Isaev
    3. wanderer_032
      +1
      10 February 2014 19: 02
      Quote: AlexA
      No need for tanks to fight in settlements. Tanks are not intended for this.

      Golden words, it’s a pity that the general staff and fathers-in-chief are commanders (as a rule, in the positions of commanders of the UGV at the army, divisional, brigade and battalion level and chief of staffs, they still do not understand this) and they are always trying to plan military operations shove tanks into us.points en masse, often without providing them with reliable cover by infantry. Also, before entering us.points do not want to conduct normal reconnaissance, including engineering (i.e. it is normal to check us.point for the presence of fortified fire points of mines, IEDs, etc.), but they prefer to shift these tasks to company and platoon commanders (or even stupidly put those before a fact-type: you need to take this and that in such and such a time, and for not fulfilling failure of the task to the tribunal).
    4. mvv
      mvv
      +1
      11 February 2014 01: 56
      You shouldn’t be so. Tanks in the city are needed, or then a specialized infantry support machine is needed - to destroy strong points, when they took a formidable one at 99m, tanks without infantry did not drive forward and everything was fine with ours, search the Internet on this subject - be surprised. Losses in technology during the storming of the terrible in the second war are miserable, because they correctly used the technique.
    5. badger1974
      0
      11 February 2014 14: 40
      100 times right, both the ekstankist and you, you need a normal set of tank protection equipment and, according to the BUVS, do not climb into the buildings on your own, for this there is reconnaissance and combat security, reconnaissance is the most important thing in hostilities, from this all combat and operational activities are built, and here with a complete set, as they say, "an eye is maturing and a tooth itching", excellent means of protection, but they are with a gulkin nose
    6. +1
      11 February 2014 19: 59
      Quote: AlexA
      I myself am not a tanker, rocket launcher, but I was taught at the school 45 years ago

      You’d better tell us about missiles ... And you about the Berlin operation ...
      Not so long ago comrade Popovkin (your colleague) being deputy technical assistant comrade Serdyukov (Field Mebel Yes ) was also perplexed: why in the T-90 there are levers, and not a “steering wheel.” True, he did not know that this lever was driven by a tiny spool ...
      Kuda horse with hoof, tuda and cancer with a claw! request
    7. crbvbyjr
      -1
      16 February 2014 21: 18
      TANKS ARE NOT FOR URBAN BATTLES? A GUNS USUAL ORDINARY STANDING ARTILERY ALSO ALI AS. TO YOUR INFORMATION A TANK FOR A LARGE THIS IS ALSO A GUN WHICH IS ONLY COVERED BY AN ARMOR. AND THIS ARMOR MAY RESCUE AT LEAST FROM THE RUNNING WEAPON.
  44. USNik
    -2
    10 February 2014 18: 19
    I don’t want to die for my country, but I want the enemy to die for his own.
    There is always a chance to die fighting for your home. Or do you propose, based on (your and false) weaknesses of our tanks, just not joining the battle, immediately surrender to the Abrams and Leopards with the Leclerks? Well, well, I think life and the environment will cruelly break you off.
    Have you ever seen that "Abrams" went with the screens removed or torn off?
    No, the Abrashas are everywhere either whole or uncomfortable, unlike the Tesheks, who, after getting TENS of grenades, remained in service, albeit with a torn defense.
    Therefore, he suggested reconstructing this shit, replacing it with normal steel side screens.
    Your proposal is the same shit as "normal steel screens", did you think about the weight or do we want another brutal and chthonic Mouse?
    I'm right?
    In his own way, and in his environment, of course. But keep in mind that people disagree with you as "I don't want to die for my country" and with your statement that reliable old T-72Bs (already B3, and we are waiting for B3M and Armata) "this is shit", very much, much more than you defeatists. For general development about the "invulnerable" Abrashi, you can read here:
    http://true-war.clan.su/forum/40-73-2
    1. Crang
      +2
      10 February 2014 18: 44
      You are a defeatist. Ready to rush doomed into battle in a situation where it is useless and die without causing any damage to the enemy. You will think "I am a hero, I did not give up, I am a man." "Hey Johnny, I fried another idiot here. Eee-ha! They can't do a fucking thing!" - say the gunner of the Abrams or a US Marine with a grenade launcher. Instead of thinking and opposing the enemy with adequate military equipment, even in a situation where the top leadership does not care about you at all and on what you will fight with the enemy armed to the teeth too. The Russian "lower classes" have always shown ingenuity and knew how to somehow get out even in a situation of complete inadequacy of the military-political "upper classes". I hope this is clear.
      Quote: USNik
      Your proposal is the same shit as "normal steel screens", did you think about the weight or do we want another brutal and chthonic Mouse?

      Well, if there are no brains, then Mouse can be. But in general, the specified modernization is an extra 1,5 tons. Such a T-72B will weigh as a base T-90 - 46 tons. Which will not affect its mobility.
      1. Volkhov
        -2
        10 February 2014 23: 53
        The author does not understand the principles of modern war - now the earthlings are waging wars with earthlings and the losses in the "Kursk battle", for example, must be summed up for both sides. If we wanted to make a safe tank and not a crematorium, we would do it, but losses are needed. The only safe tank is made for enemy agents - Merkava, because there are few of them and people are prolific. When the T-72 meets the Leopard, you need to shoot at the Merkava ...
        Look at the Syrian war - they openly strive for maximum losses, and if there are no Assad troops nearby, then the rebels are fighting each other or with civilians.
        Look at the actions of the Russian fleet in the last six months - only "Nakhimov" of large ships remained and under the guise of a pontoon they cook armored amps according to the type recommended in the article ... but this is not the dementia of admirals, but a victory in genocide - no matter who died, the total result is important ...
        In 41 KV it was a safe tank, but they were put under bombing, in 45 IS was safe, but they were driven into the cities.
        Try to see the whole picture, figure out the enemy and not give in to manipulations - the problem will be solved, and to create weapons for self-destruction is completely unnecessary at your own expense - they will give you the order posthumously, just kill yourself more.
        1. Volkhov
          +3
          11 February 2014 00: 41
          Something like this is everywhere in the world.
        2. +1
          11 February 2014 19: 41
          Quote: Volkhov
          The only safe tank

          Safe ... tank!
          Excuse me, of course, but the phrase of Father Makhno comes to mind: "D ... k, and also the general staff!"
          All tanks are "high-risk rooms" Yes
          And if some cars of one generation are, of course, better protected, then others, as a rule, are more maneuverable, less noticeable, etc.
          And a more powerful defense is not the main thing for the survival of the crew.
          As it was correctly noted, there are only impenetrable impenetrables.
          And what is the main thing? Proper combat use of BTT, tactics, you know. Yes
          1. Volkhov
            +1
            11 February 2014 22: 26
            Quote: Alekseev
            And what is the main thing? Proper combat use of BTT, tactics, you know.

            So about the tactics it was written:
            Quote: Volkhov
            calculate the enemy and not give in to manipulation

            If you do not shoot at each other in the interests of a third civilization, then the tank is safe.
  45. +3
    10 February 2014 18: 44
    e) go to the store and buy a widescreen car GPS-navigator with Navitel maps. Fix the device at the commander's workplace and connect a GPS antenna mounted on the roof of the tower to it. Of course, he will not give information about where his and where enemies. But this device will give the exact coordinates of the location, it will show where the street is, where is what, what is the shortest route of departure / passage. As they say, bezrybe and cancer fish. This alone can save a life;

    So the Yankees will let them use it. And if they do, then to fully guarantee the defeat of the tank, it remains to be painted in bright red so that it can be seen even in the dark. Schaub was even easier to aim for the enemy.

    PS
    We must immediately collect these)
  46. Crang
    +1
    10 February 2014 18: 48
    Quote: ShadowCat
    So the Yankees will let them use it. And if they do, then to fully guarantee the defeat of the tank, it remains to be painted in bright red so that it can be seen even in the dark. Schaub was even easier to aim for the enemy.

    In conflicts like the Georgian will use. And they won’t do anything. And in a big war, turn it off naturally.
    1. PLO
      0
      10 February 2014 20: 17
      you are talking nonsense
      in the war with Georgia, the civilian GPS signal in the conflict zone was specially distorted, so civilian GPS navigators were useless there.

      although on the other hand a conventional GPS navigator will not help you find yourself
  47. +4
    10 February 2014 20: 44
    He endured for a long time, did not intervene anywhere.

    Krang, bro, finish for today. You write practical moments, but there are such nuances that they say that you know the tank from the picture. Especially the T-72.

    especially killed me.

    Do not enter into a night battle with the Abrams and be sober in the battle. It was also necessary to add not with the army.

    Krang a lot of mistakes work on the mat part Box 72 is not mechanical. mechanics in order to leave his place through the BO need to throw out two trays he himself will not do this.
    Well, about the cumulative shells and bricks in the Zip drawers you have already been corrected.

    Forgive the tactlessness of the cartouche of the charge itself ignited a lighter?


    Guys to fight - generally harmful to health, believe me.

    Krang, but you're good at all. Persistent and inquisitive lad. I say this without banter. I also conducted many essays and studies as a young man. Continue if you burn and do not be afraid. you have good thoughts.
    1. +1
      10 February 2014 20: 50
      Quote: vorobey
      He endured for a long time, did not intervene anywhere.

      Sanya !!!!!!!!!!!!!
      hi
      Yes kuzhzh you are missing, oil radish?
      I'M GLAD TO SEE YOU !!!
      drinks
      1. +3
        10 February 2014 20: 58
        Hello, hello. Yes, he fought off cats. The parasites wanted to gobble up. wassat

        Seriously, a lot of work. I’ll start to disappear again soon. drinks
        1. +1
          10 February 2014 21: 08
          Quote: vorobey
          Yes, he fought off cats. The parasites wanted to gobble up.

          laughing
          I heard that you work. The guys here are maleho ... ahem, worried.

          And here I am in the summer in the hospital as I got hooked on the site (Schaub can’t sleep in the ward), and I can’t get out ...
          feel
          I already looked that you marked in comments on February 6 ...

          If you are with a beer, look in a personal, just on that day, his next opus was nagging about inserts (he is in bikes), it's so simple - "neighing in a mug of nostalgia."

          I hope to talk more.
          drinks
          1. +2
            10 February 2014 21: 12
            Lesha, thank you brother. I’ll definitely stop by to read.

            Also, everyone wants to write something and Martha promised, but apparently not fate though. No time. drinks
          2. The comment was deleted.
      2. The comment was deleted.
    2. +1
      10 February 2014 21: 40
      Quote: vorobey
      Krang, but you're good at all. Persistent and inquisitive lad. I say this without banter. I also conducted many essays and studies as a young man. Continue if you burn and do not be afraid. you have good thoughts.

      Well ... I’ve re-read the article and comments, I’ve typed, so to speak - I was preparing tomorrow to write a crushing rebuttal article, expose it, scribble a reprimand on the party line and roll up the NSP ...
      angry
      And then Sparrow came and ... ruined everything - cheered up...
      laughing

      Krang:
      - Be careful with tank themes, we have already discussed ...
      - And to describe the amateur the military use and advise, besides ... more. Strongly jarring.
      We drove through.
  48. The comment was deleted.
  49. +1
    10 February 2014 21: 08
    And why do not we replace all old tanks with our latest T-90 and latest T-80 modifications ??? Why has the production of 2011th tanks been discontinued since 90? The USA and a number of advanced NATO countries have long replaced the old tanks with Abrams M1A2, Leopard-2A- 6, Challenger 2, Leclerc. And for some reason we stand still.
    1. AGM-114
      0
      10 February 2014 21: 17
      Quote: supertiger21
      And why do not we replace all the old tanks with our latest T-90

      I believe nerds gave money to modernize what is, and not to purchase new equipment. Not from a good life was born such squalor as the T-72B3.
      1. +2
        10 February 2014 21: 22
        Quote: AGM-114
        Not from a good life was born such squalor as the T-72B3.


        Nerds allow themselves such remarks without hesitation.

        72 Once again you will call squalor I will write in the bloodlines. Here, many people know my attitude to this tank. I’m not minus anyone, but next time I’ll make an exception for you. hi
        1. AGM-114
          -1
          10 February 2014 21: 29
          Quote: vorobey
          72 once again call squalor I will write in the bloodlines

          Write it down.
          Quote: vorobey
          Here, many people know my attitude to this tank.

          Over the 14 years of service, of which 6 is dedicated to T-72AB, T-72B and T-72B1, I have developed my own attitude towards this squalor.
          Quote: vorobey
          but next time I’ll make an exception for you

          Forward.
          1. +2
            10 February 2014 21: 48
            Quote: AGM-114
            Over the 14 years of service, of which 6 is dedicated to T-72AB, T-72B and T-72B1, I have developed my own attitude towards this squalor.

            And no one says that the T-72B is a pink horse.

            But you probably mixed up the service ...
            You had to serve at the Bolshoi Theater, there, they say, harmony and beauty lives on.
            I have 13,5 years of service.
            1. AGM-114
              0
              10 February 2014 21: 59
              Quote: Aleks tv
              say harmony and beauty lives on.

              Harmony and beauty lived in the 13 cantemurian regiment, and in other places like that - dust, garbage, dust.
              1. +1
                10 February 2014 22: 09
                Quote: AGM-114
                Harmony and beauty lived in the 13 cantemurian regiment, and in other places like that - dust, garbage, dust.

                So you know what harmony and beauty are, rejoice.
                For many, this is "unlucky" ... not buzzing.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. badger1974
        +2
        10 February 2014 23: 19
        ha, the stars and stripes for their squalor M1 somehow emit babalo that dies from 12.7 mm, the Semites also spend on their "armored hotel" which, without infantry and combat escort, is full 0, the underdogs Leo -2 pkhayut-who stuck like his ancestors in muddy roads (along the way, having 20mm from above on the niche of the turret ammunition load is enough and 7.62-54), the under-imperialists of the foggy homosexubion with their "Challenge", which is ... during the battles near Basra, or the larvoyedy with their "Leclercs" whose optics are like windows in apartment,
        all are spent, but rely on air assistance, none of the above-mentioned tank operations was carried out by the aforementioned, the T-72 was the only one who conducted combat operations on their own, without any support, not disdaining mines and air attacks and guerrilla attacks, another question is when the generals learn to equip them modern means of AZ and PZ, and this is, and not in our example, Zionists Trophy build on the basis of Soviet developments
        so that about squalor is your personal, and not that confusing
        1. +3
          10 February 2014 23: 26
          Quote: badger1974
          Ha,

          Ba-a-alshoy plus!
          The other day I read an article on the topic of tanks, it mentioned "... a hefty negro loader ..." on Abrash. Not your doing? laughing
          1. badger1974
            0
            10 February 2014 23: 53
            but what if the pictures could be poked and video in this case, then perhaps yes, and I’m unaware of it, I don’t know, but, as well as his opponent in the general NATO program Leo2, they have a purely theoretical shot on the go, push a separate charge on the go - Well, it’s just that you have to be a circus, so shooting from the course is not practiced there, and all the work on the occasion of shelling the Abr leaves exactly like the challenge (how did you not mention it?), after the aircraft and the MLRS equalize the object with the ground level, the tank offensive continues,
            and so throw a link, I’ll look, there’s been no scanner for two years, so it would be better to tell
            1. +3
              11 February 2014 00: 55
              Quote: badger1974
              Challenge "which is about..la during the battles near Basra

              Can you read more?
              Quote: badger1974
              , have a purely theoretical shot on the go, push a separate charge on the go, well, that's

              Well, you can basically stop talking with you on this. If the finite does not prove that Ab and Leo have a separate charge, and not a unitary. Interesting, but how could the T-62 or T-55 go on charge?
              Quote: badger1974
              about this shooting from the course there is not practiced

              Strange, strange you are telling such news, where did you get this?
              1. badger1974
                0
                11 February 2014 01: 30
                in smart murzilki like "technology-youth" "science and technology" and "technology and weapons" as well as a set of manuals on heat engineering, metalworking and other publications of Soviet times. and there are also many technical literatures, in the internet there is also a lot of interesting, but without the listed publications, the internet is a waste of time
                1. sapran
                  0
                  11 February 2014 01: 38
                  On the rights of a simple murzilka. no more
                2. +1
                  11 February 2014 15: 06
                  Quote: badger1974
                  in smart murzilki like "technology-youth"

                  Show Murzilka with
                  Quote: badger1974
                  Leo2 program, have a purely theoretical shot on the go, cram a separate charge on the go
              2. badger1974
                0
                11 February 2014 12: 07
                on the first question - in the second company in 2003, the challengers were mainly in the Basra area - the losses were about 10 vehicles, all are repairable, one vehicle was completely lost - "destroyed by detonation of the first stage ammunition, the knockout panels did not work", the tank was lost near Baghdad - the reason is whether friendly fire, or RPG felts, in any case there are officials, since the challenges played a secondary role in the aggression, then the data is silent behind the shadow of the Abrams,
                according to the second, the tank guns were tested in the circle of NATO colleagues, given that the m68 gun was developed on the basis of the English L7, then, in the circle of friends, when switching to 120mm, they also tried the English L11, but in time the German barrel ripened, and L11 is separate loading, just like and L30 on the Chess, but in other matters the issue of firing at least separate unitary — try to reload, I don’t think that there is a 6 machine gun per minute, two times less, the T-62 has a reservation in firing from the move - the speed should not exceed 10-15 km per hour, tanks with automatic loaders can fire throughout the entire range of speeds
                on the third is the second question
                1. +1
                  11 February 2014 14: 53
                  Quote: badger1974
                  Basra losses amounted to about 10 cars,

                  Challengers were on the moon losing 200 pcs, mostly from aliens.
                  Quote: badger1974
                  the tank is lost near Baghdad, the reason is either friendly fire, RPG roofing felts, in any case there are officers

                  RPG official

                  but besides fairy tales, nothing comes from you
                  ^ "UK Department of Defense: Army Commission of Inquiry Report" (PDF). Retrieved on 2011-01-16.
                  Jump up ^ Foster, Patrick (23 April 2007). "Homemade bomb parade of British tank". The Times.

                  Quote: badger1974
                  NKIs with automatic loading can fire all over the speed range

                  Oh well? At maximum speed? Pruff in the studio))
                  1. badger1974
                    0
                    11 February 2014 15: 39
                    to those 200 lost on the moon, add one at 72 seconds in 1986

                    The official from the RPG ends tragically, exactly like from 12.7 mm into the BC niche from above, this is an indisputable fact, and more detailed information can be obtained being Snowden or someone else in the ranks of the NATO kitchen, at first the Abras did not lose the identity, then they did, but in breakdowns , and then they turned out to be burning, and then it turns out that there are dozens in general, so you do not splash in vain, the documents will be opened, then you will count, and so I "eat" what is all, the only thing I can think about is collecting information

                    But about shooting at maximum speed from a tank gun with an automatic loader? are you or are you dumb? they are full of vidioms, and they are not full of tame ones, you scratch your turnips if in situations like this it was impossible to do the exact work when the system fluctuated,
                    1. +2
                      11 February 2014 16: 43
                      Quote: badger1974
                      t 12.7 mm to the niche bk on top

                      Again, some kind of fairy tale? Give the source where you read it or invented it yourself?
                      Quote: badger1974
                      more details can be obtained as Snowden

                      Well, you mean you have to tell. I wonder where the abrams under the DShK came from above, and even so that the angle was close to normal, and at least a distance of 400 meters.
                      Quote: badger1974
                      But about shooting at maximum speed from a tank gun with an automatic loader? are you or are you dumb? they are full of vidiom
                      You’re dumb, because you don’t give proofs. And you can put yourself wherever you want, you can shoot with a flash, but getting into another thing.
                      Therefore, targeted shooting in motion speed up to 30 km, on the intersection it is less.
                      Quote: badger1974
                      scratch your turnip, if in situations such it wasn’t worth it to do the exact work when the system fluctuates,

                      really some kind of verbal diarrhea.

                      eating 10
                      Defeat a motionless target in motion
                      Range 1000-1200 m. Target - fixed shield 2,3 x 2,3 m. Shooting the tank in motion V = 40 km / h - 10 rounds, projectile - armor-piercing.
                      The T-80U tank completed the test in full, the percentage of defeat is 100%, the speed of the tank is 20-25 km / h (the tank does not develop speed 40 km / h due to the condition of the track). Anyway, after 30 km / h it’s problematic to get there. If it's not me.

                      http://btvt.narod.ru/4/tender.htm
                      1. badger1974
                        0
                        11 February 2014 19: 06
                        what is proof? pictures and video? or exiled? unclear,
                        About 12.7 in the niche of the tower of Abra? so this is according to the amerdiskovtor, the amertankists themselves told about their amerabre, saying that it’s what kind of technique the tank is in the trash and the tankers are all alive, although I personally doubt what remains of the abra and tell why they got it. and what do you think ... from dsha, well, I’d compose it is understandable, but here .... bob go for it interestingly, by the way, at the expense of searches on the internet about the defeats of American and Israeli technology — almost all the clips have been removed, two years ago could enjoy this spectacle, now no, do not tell me why?
                        about the jumps, there will be norms, the equipment will be hit, and manual loading as it was squalor it will remain so
                        and diarrhea or constipation, time will tell
                      2. +1
                        11 February 2014 19: 18
                        Quote: badger1974
                        About 12.7 in the niche of the tower of Abra? so it’s according to the amerdiskovtor that the amertankists themselves spoke about their amerabra,

                        You're delusional.
                        Quote: badger1974
                        12.7 mm to niche bk

                        In reality, from which you were torn off, the decision was about ONE incident with the defeat of the Armed Forces in the Abrams M1A1 basket of the Marine Corps, and the BC niche is not worth it.
                        Hike somewhere heard, mixed and now rave.
                        Quote: badger1974
                        American and Israeli technology - almost all the clips have been removed, two years ago it was possible to enjoy this spectacle, now no, can you tell me why?

                        And you saved which ones? But I didn’t notice any deletions, although I follow this very closely, here the guys will not let me lie.
                        Quote: badger1974
                        about the jumps, there will be norms, the equipment will be hit,

                        Leclerc gets? There are both AZ and equipment.

                        Quote: badger1974
                        and diarrhea or constipation, time will tell
                        exactly one or the other is harmful to health, about the same.

                        Do you even lie about the separate charge at the abrams?
        2. sapran
          +1
          11 February 2014 01: 10
          ... Right? Under Basra and "Challenger" got sick? Kindly give a link, and you can and on the English-language site (forum) an interesting fact must be subtracted ...
          1. badger1974
            0
            11 February 2014 01: 33
            open the journal "Science and Technology" Kharkov edition, find articles on the "challenge" - everything is there, when, what and how in details, unfortunately "Jane" is not available to me now due to the high cost
            1. sapran
              0
              11 February 2014 01: 47
              Forgive me, but sometimes such authors are published in the Armament technique that it is impossible to call it anything other than a "progressive reactionary". If there is a frank reprint of long-refuted myths and people are trying to somehow light up.
              According to the Challenger, I am familiar with the disadvantages regarding the high cost of a small engine resource machine (poor maintainability in the field, and more precisely, the lack of spare parts due to the natural paucity of shaving, increased wear of the track - typical for all anti-Iraq coalition vehicles). A full analysis of the database, if possible, you can draw from the MP Colonel Poteryaiko KISV 1 (h) 1997 and the second part (if published then in 2009)
          2. badger1974
            0
            11 February 2014 12: 21
            Two cases of the defeat of Challenger-2 tanks in Iraq were recorded: in the first case, the Americans mistakenly killed him on March 23, 2009, and in the second on April 6, 2007, frontal armor was shot from a hand-held anti-tank grenade launcher
            1. 0
              11 February 2014 12: 57
              Quote: badger1974
              6 April 2007 frontal armor was shot through with a hand anti-tank grenade launcher

              At the X-2?
              It is interesting.
              Is there a detailed infa?
              1. Crang
                -1
                11 February 2014 13: 15
                The driver seemed to have torn off the driver’s leg.
              2. badger1974
                0
                11 February 2014 13: 27
                there was somewhere a chronicle of the events of the hostilities of the coalition forces in Iraq from 2003 to 2011, but you need to have an iron ass "to shovel all the summaries and reveal what is required, I copied myself in part, quite a lot of information, but compressed, I still need to co-operate, there even slipped like a challenge into his brother, I treated him to the challenge, but fate did not agree, I did not save it
            2. +1
              11 February 2014 15: 00
              Quote: badger1974
              Two Cases of Challenger-2 Tanks Recorded in Iraq

              What a horror, it must be urgently written off. Two defeats in total.
              Quote: Aleks tv
              At the X-2?
              NLD in a gap between the bottom and blocks of hinged protection
              1. badger1974
                0
                11 February 2014 15: 48
                the horror lies in the fact that in Iraq, apart from the RPG-7, there were only RPG-7. and the challenge could not resist him, besides, judging by all the NATO competitions, it is the most "oblique", so we kindly ask the crew of the world's best tank for the challenge as a loader, HA-HA-HA
                1. +1
                  11 February 2014 16: 47
                  Quote: badger1974
                  were only RPG-7. and the challenge could not resist him
                  T-90 does not get tired in the same place, but it has a chance to get the detonation of BC

                  Quote: badger1974
                  so kindly ask the crew of the beam tank of the world to cage as a loader, HA-HA-HA

                  I would rather duda than in t-72Б3 we do not charge.
                  1. badger1974
                    0
                    11 February 2014 19: 17
                    you argue correctly, because in terms of scorched aircraft, MLRS and art, you can even advance on the challenge even without ammo, that's just the "seven" continues to increase the face value in the fight against armor, so before meeting with the RPG-7, the negro projectile feeder
    2. +4
      10 February 2014 21: 18
      Quote: supertiger21
      And why do not we replace all the old tanks with our latest T-90


      Aslan if there is time to dig deeper on the site in old topics. Read the comments and the whole layout will become clear. Long to explain so.

      If in short. it's expensive. It’s cheaper to upgrade to level 90. We are not going to conduct active actions. and in defense 72 will serve. And we are waiting for a new platform.
    3. The comment was deleted.
  50. +1
    10 February 2014 22: 49
    I wish you health, without exception! First of all, thanks to the author of the article for the fact that I have not seen such a discussion between the knowledgeable and those who "presume what they know" for a long time (I myself recently did not hold MTLB in my hands at VO and except for levers). Thank you, I enjoyed reading most of the comments! Special thanks to the professionals! hi
  51. Max_Damage
    0
    11 February 2014 00: 42
    People, does tank armor actually save you from anything in the current conditions? If our tank is hit in the side with a grenade launcher, does it have a chance to remain unharmed?
    1. AGM-114
      0
      11 February 2014 00: 47
      The sides of any modern tank are made of cardboard. They are faithful to the precepts of the blitzkrieg, maximum armor on the VLD and the turret, and everything else - to hell with it. Safe maneuvering angles!
    2. sapran
      0
      11 February 2014 01: 06
      Just Google the video test "Barrier" "Duplet" ARENA TROPHY and so on
  52. +2
    11 February 2014 01: 39
    People. What kind of pipe is on the top of the tower? That's it, I found it myself, I apologize for the trouble.
    1. +3
      11 February 2014 01: 45
      ___________________
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. +2
          11 February 2014 09: 45
          Quote: Aleks tv
          Andrey, you have a rare shot of an underwater crossing:


          Guys don't give a damn. It was the same literate photojournalists who turned the negative over. DSLR

          Lech, well, you should pay attention to the command tower where it should be.
          1. 0
            11 February 2014 12: 50
            Quote: vorobey
            Lech, well, you should pay attention to the command tower where it should be.

            Sanya, I always said that you have big eyes...
            I deleted this comment in less than a minute... and typed a new one about “negativity” (it’s below).
            When did you have time to read it?
            laughing

            I'm getting old ...
            Only then did I see the harp... and the commander’s turret and realized that there was only one pipe.
        2. +1
          11 February 2014 09: 45
          Quote: Aleks tv
          Andrey, you have a rare shot of an underwater crossing:


          Guys don't give a damn. It was the same literate photojournalists who turned the negative over. DSLR

          Lech, well, you should pay attention to the command tower where it should be.
      2. +1
        11 February 2014 01: 57
        Quote: Kars
        ___________________

        Andrey, T-72 with an optical rangefinder and... the negative is upside down.
        wink
        It took me a long time to figure it out, I’m probably getting old.
    2. +1
      11 February 2014 01: 46
      Quote: perepilka
      What kind of pipe is on the top of the tower?

      Vladimir:
      A simple T-72B goes from the “area” to the waterport for crossing.
      The OPVT pipe is attached, the gunner's hatch is open, the cable and buoys are prepared.
      1. +3
        11 February 2014 01: 58
        Thank you! Then another question, in one photo she is on the right (Kars), on the other on the left (Krang), is one of the photos mirrored, or can she be placed both ways? Oh, they answered the question a minute earlier belay
        1. +1
          11 February 2014 02: 17
          Quote: perepilka
          Is one of the photos a mirror image, or can it be placed here and there? Oh, they answered the question a minute earlier

          wink
  53. bubble82009
    +1
    11 February 2014 01: 43
    the cry of the soul is simple. here about three months ago there was an option to modernize the T-72 tank. so he's even worse than he was. Instead of an IR illuminator there is nothing! in the frontal part of the gun there is an uncovered space. and those elements of active armor protection are located in such a way that they make no sense.
  54. +5
    11 February 2014 02: 43
    Quote: Civil
    The need for inventions is cunning, by the way it’s time to let them serve with their weapons, fathers will buy new ones, for example tanks or pay for modernization,

    In reality, in recent years we have been serving like this, except for weapons, of course. Pay for repairs of equipment with your hard-earned money, if you go somewhere - well, we get so much money - on our own transport, uniforms - yes, all sizes and colors are easily on the market, renovation of premises - just tell us, we are always happy to pay for European-quality repairs! And this is not an embellished reality! And the equipment on the ground is being modernized anyway. I had imported Mikunis on my kungs, not standard heaters, diesel fuel consumption was minimal, and they hardly consumed the batteries. For snow removal, we designed a suspension for the ZIL-131 with a shovel; there is no need to involve soldiers. Yes, almost every part has its own Kulibins, our people are literate and cunning in this area! As for tanks, I’ll say this - we’ll see Armata, what will happen there. I myself was trained as a T-80 commander, height 168, but even I was not very comfortable inside; in the event of a defeat, evacuation is very difficult, in order to use the NSVT I had to almost completely crawl out of the turret!
  55. +1
    11 February 2014 11: 51
    Of course, in most cases the crew can do little on their own. But if he is far from the stern eyes of the authorities, and there is at least some kind of machine-building plant nearby, then something can still be done...
    I don’t even know whether to smile, laugh or cry... That is, a LONELY tank crew “left grandfather and left grandmother... and came to the “machine-building factory”... and not just came, but took it by storm? ?????, surrounded on all sides, so that no one would run away and FORCE them to work for themselves... Such an idea can only be inspired by playing a computer... If such work is organized, it will be on a scale no less a separate tank battalion... with the involvement of specialists from the BT service and repair units... on the basis of some industrial enterprise...
  56. +2
    11 February 2014 12: 58
    adjust the ammunition load. There is no point in chasing the much more bulky Abrams in the number of shells. The ammunition load should consist of 22 shots in the AZ + 2 (reserve) from below in the hull. A total of 24 shots. Composition: 10 - BOPS (maximum possible length), 10 - OFS, 4 - missiles. Get rid of cumulative shells completely;

    TUS (tank guided projectile) - FOUR pieces... Class... But WHERE will one SEPARATE CREW take them? They issue six of them for one armored unit, and not for every one... And besides, what about the call to refuse cumulative shells, since TUS is also cumulative?
    d) to alter the fuel system so that it was possible to pour water into the tanks-racks. Empty nests for shots filled with red brick chips or expanded clay and closed with plugs. AZ in the corners gets a local anti-cumulative "shirt" with a good equivalent. Places inside the tank becomes much more;
    Depriving a tank of its MAIN supply of fuel is, of course, a TEST... And the question is: WHY DOES THERE BE MORE SPACE INSIDE THE Tank, since everything remains in place?
    e) go to the store and buy a widescreen car GPS-navigator with Navitel maps. Fix the device at the commander's workplace and connect a GPS antenna mounted on the roof of the tower to it. Of course, he will not give information about where his and where enemies. But this device will give the exact coordinates of the location, it will show where the street is, where is what, what is the shortest route of departure / passage. As they say, bezrybe and cancer fish. This alone can save a life;
    Yes...there are no words. HURRAY, comrades!!!!! Only one. In a war with Merkavas, and even more so with Apaches and Abrams and Leopards, our GPS system WILL NOT WORK... We need GLONASS... equipment...
    Clean all three turret spare parts boxes and fill them with red brick scrap or expanded clay. Weld a neat metal strip to them along the contour of a crescent. It's okay to paint. Attach metal chains to the strip in increments of 50-70 mm, similar to the Merkava. The chains should lightly touch the MTO roof, but not drag along it. Very serious protection (from cumulative PTS) of the stern and rear of the turret sides is ready;
    It’s much easier and better to put bags there, maybe polytilene ones, in any store, by that time they will already be thrown, broken and looted, you can get a lot of them, with sand...
    CHAINS-?????? Where can I get them in the right quantity? It’s easier to use “rubber-fabric” side screens from damaged and irreparable tanks or from repair kits and weld a “skirt” around the turret...
    And so on point by point and on and on..
    It’s good that people think, but it’s bad that they don’t apply it to specific possibilities...and realities.
    1. Crang
      +1
      11 February 2014 13: 37
      Quote: svp67
      It’s good that people think, but it’s bad that they don’t apply it to specific possibilities...and realities.

      This is true, but in this case it was you who thought badly.
      Quote: svp67
      CHAINS-?????? Where can I get them in the required quantity? It is easier to use “rubber-fabric” side screens from damaged and irreparable tanks

      Chains can be purchased. They themselves are more effective than screens because... firstly, thick and steel. Secondly, they are flexible. An ATGM or RG that hits them will not only cock before meeting the armor or spare parts boxes, but will also break it. This time. Second. The chains are flexible and will touch the roof of the MTO. That is, there will be no gap between the body at all. Well, the third thing is the most important. Use rubber-fabric screens. Well, at least it will be a collective farm and a f*ck. And the most important thing - have you thought about the driver? A tank was knocked out. The tower at that moment turned out to be turned back, i.e. this protection covered the driver's hatch. How will he, wounded, get out there and bend them back? He will simply push the chains apart and then crawl between them.
      Quote: svp67
      Yes...there are no words. HURRAY, comrades!!!!! Only one. In a war with Merkavas, and even more so with Apaches and Abrams and Leopards, our GPS system WILL NOT WORK... We need GLONASS... equipment...

      But it will work in conflicts like the Georgian or Chechen one. And America won't do anything. There are now both GLONASS and combined navigators. Everything will work fine.
      Quote: svp67
      Depriving a tank of its MAIN fuel supply is, of course, a TEST...

      If we are talking about an assault on a city, or sluggish urban battles, then what are the problems? You don't have to travel far there. Leave fuel in barrels and external tanks. Even their explosion occurring outside the reserved volume will not be dangerous. Well, maybe leave a little in one internal one. Just go to the gas station more often. And if we are talking about a classic tank war - blitzkrieg, then yes - you will have to refuel to the fullest. The fuel system needs to be redone. So that, depending on the task, it would be possible to pour either water or fuel in different proportions at the request of the crew.
      Quote: svp67
      And here’s the question: WHY DOES THERE BE MORE SPACE INSIDE THE Tank, since everything remains in place?

      All shells from the tower will disappear. And they will stop sticking out of the tank racks.
      Quote: svp67
      TUS (tank guided projectile) - FOUR pieces... Class... But WHERE will one SEPARATE CREW take them?

      Who says it's easy?
      Quote: svp67
      And besides, what about the call to abandon cumulative projectiles, since TUS is also cumulative?

      Because UR is superior to CS in all respects and keeping the latter in BC simply does not make sense. In terms of armor penetration and especially in terms of accuracy and range of fire, the SDs outperform conventional CS by a wide margin. And at a distance of up to 2 km, BOPS are definitely better as high-speed, high-precision and most difficult to parry ammunition. Especially taking into account the latest advances in the field of anti-cumulative protection of tanks. In general, today you will hit who the hell out of ordinary cops and punch who the hell out of anyone.
      1. +3
        11 February 2014 14: 05
        Quote: Krang
        If we are talking about an assault on a city, or sluggish urban battles, then what are the problems? You don't have to travel far there. Leave fuel in barrels and external tanks. Even their explosion occurring outside the reserved volume will not be dangerous. Well, maybe leave a little in one internal one.


        Krang brother. There has long been a proven procedure for fuel consumption by the crew.
        Barrels and the outer group of tanks are for the march and they are consumed first. since after the battle they are already a sieve and leaving the car without fuel in this way is certain, or it will even burn them faster than with RPG adversaries. Then it’s the turn of the middle group, exactly which is located behind the AZ.

        And last of all, in battle, the front group is the most protected.

        Quote: Krang
        The fuel system needs to be redone. So that, depending on the task, it would be possible to pour either water or fuel in different proportions at the request of the crew.



        1. +4
          11 February 2014 14: 16
          Quote: Krang
          And the most important thing - have you thought about the driver? A tank was knocked out. The tower at that moment turned out to be turned back, i.e. this protection covered the driver's hatch. How will he, wounded, get out there and bend them back?


          And the mechanized vehicle has a magic button on the lever; when pressed, the turret rotates at 25-00 so that the mechanized vehicle can leave the vehicle. Or to the extreme through the landing hatch.

          If you want to live, you'll fly out like a traffic jam. I have already told you how I burned. I still can’t figure out how I opened the hatch. feel
          1. Crang
            -1
            11 February 2014 14: 53
            Quote: vorobey
            And the mechanized vehicle has a magic button on the lever; when pressed, the turret rotates at 25-00 so that the mechanized vehicle can leave the vehicle.

            Firstly, the emergency hood rotation button may not work and the tower will not move.
            Quote: vorobey
            Or to the extreme through the landing hatch.
            If you want to live, you'll fly out like a traffic jam. I have already told you how I burned. I still can’t figure out how I opened the hatch.

            Why complicate everything, especially in such an emergency situation. When, instead of a collective farm, it is possible to do it exactly according to the factory and ensure the safety of people as much as possible. Of course, you can somehow build something with improvised means, on your knee, but it will be such a f*ck.. It’s better not to appear in parades next to the brand new T-90A on such a unit. The article is not about this, but about cheap, but cultural modernization in a relaxed manner. Which will allow you to turn the T-72B into a reliable horse for your beloved and a nightmare for the enemy.
        2. The comment was deleted.
      2. The comment was deleted.
      3. +2
        11 February 2014 20: 14
        Quote: Krang
        Chains can be purchased. They themselves are more effective than screens because... firstly thick and steel

        You just amaze me sometimes...
        Buy chains... That is, at first you offer several ways to relatively quickly and easily “upgrade” a tank in “garage” conditions, but now it turns out that you first need to purchase something else and wait for its arrival... Well, let’s say DHL, for yours money will deliver the parcel to any place, but I wouldn’t advise you to rely on “Russia Post”... And of course, everyone is fighting, and you are waiting for an “upgrade”... That’s just...
        Quote: Krang
        They themselves are more effective than screens because... firstly, thick and steel. Secondly, they are flexible. An ATGM or RG that hits them will not only cock before meeting the armor or spare parts boxes, but will also break it. This time. Second. The chains are flexible and will touch the roof of the MTO. That is, there will be no gap between the body at all.

        Yes, I think here some shells will slip between the chains and not notice that there was something there and, most importantly, not only “they won’t work, but they won’t even want to break.”

        And they shouldn’t touch the roof at all, otherwise any snag and breakage...
        Quote: Krang
        And the most important thing - have you thought about the driver?
        Yes, about my dear one, and I think that this would not have happened with him, but with our long-suffering infantry...
        The adversary’s tanks are tall, they’re not afraid, but for us, this “flail” will hit the neck or head, and it will work when the turret turns sharply...
  57. +4
    11 February 2014 14: 16
    Krang, you’ve already been told that’s enough...
    Are you not satisfied with the opinions of tankers on your article?

    You pestered me back in September, but it seemed to me that I was able to “break through” something... So it seemed. Everything remains the same: you have a mess of collected real experience and your own fantasies.
    And such a mixture is more dangerous for those who are “not in the know.” People read and cling to the “right” points in your speeches and agree with everything else. And this is worse than the speech of a deluded person.
    I’m keeping silent, I wanted you guys to listen, otherwise you’ll get attached again, because I’m fanning my fingers like a hot pepper.

    There are two types of stubbornness:
    -firmness of convictions and defending one’s position;
    -stubbornness that doesn’t listen to “anything or anyone.”
    1. Crang
      +1
      11 February 2014 14: 59
      Calm down Alexey. Everything is fine.
      Quote: Aleks tv
      There are two types of stubbornness:
      -firmness of convictions and defending one’s position;
      -stubbornness that doesn’t listen to “anything or anyone.”

      If you want to convey something to people, then it is better to do it not in the comments, but in your article. Sit down, calmly and leisurely think about what, from the point of view of you as a professional ideological tanker, can and should be done in the T-72B. Just don’t make your article demonstratively counterbalance mine as a refutation. Why touch someone personally? Just express your opinion. If you have it. I’ll just warn you right away - although you are a professional tanker, even after your article a lot of people will ridicule you and accuse you of being a noob and amateur. Will question your attitude towards tanks. But we must take this calmly. So let's wait.
      1. +1
        11 February 2014 15: 28
        Quote: Krang
        Sit down, calmly and leisurely think about what, from the point of view of you as a professional ideological tanker, can and should be done in the T-72B.

        Quote: Krang
        I’ll just warn you right away - although you are a professional tanker, even after your article a lot of people will ridicule you and accuse you of being a noob and amateur. Will question your attitude towards tanks.

        Well, I really don’t know what to say... I should probably get scared and hide in the gap under the rags and not let the light shine...
        request
        It seems like I write on the sly, when I’m in the mood and work allows it.
        Drop by and read it.
        I can even poke my nose:
        http://topwar.ru/35631-t-72b3chto-eto-za-zver-chast-1.html
        http://topwar.ru/35591-t-72b3chto-eto-za-zver-chast-2.html
        there is MY approach to such analysis.

        And about self-cooking on tanks:
        There is such a guy, he has a terrible name - ZAMPOTEKH.
        Now, if he says to weld eggs to the armor, and the commander nods his head to this...
        then the ENTIRE unit together on ALL tanks will weld the eggs to the armor.
        It’s just that the commander and the guy “zampotech” know better what needs (and is allowed!!!) to be put on armored vehicles.
        And all other individual delights are possible only with a nod of the head of the same deputy engineer.

        I’m explaining this to you, as a MAJOR specialist in the field of military and technical equipment, which:
        Quote: Krang
        I'm not a tanker. And I sat in the T-80BV 1,5 times during the shortened service period.

        This phrase of yours is in the comments of the article “In Russia, modifications of the T-80 were created that are superior to the T-72B3 and T-90A,” posted on VO on September 10, 2013.

        And I will continue to write, don’t worry so much.
        Yes
        1. Crang
          -1
          11 February 2014 16: 22
          Quote: Aleks tv
          there is MY approach to such analysis.

          I read YOUR approach... And it became unclear to me why you criticized me here? In principle, you wrote the same thing as me, with the only difference that I touched only on obvious mistakes that directly affect the technical characteristics and only on the fact that, given certain capabilities, it is possible, if not on your own, but on the scale of a brigade, say, to be relatively cheaply corrected. You attacked the whole tank there and didn’t offer anything in return (recommendations for fixing the problems)....
          1. +1
            11 February 2014 16: 45
            Quote: Krang
            And I didn’t understand why you criticized me here? In principle, you wrote the same thing as me, with the only difference being

            Yes, close. But completely “in the wrong steppe”.
            Quote: Krang
            You attacked the whole tank there and didn’t offer anything in return (recommendations for fixing the problems)....

            Actually, he suggested it. And not a little. Read noona more carefully.

            And as for “bashing” my dear “turtle” - bekha...................
            I can get bloody and angry. No kidding.

            It's REALLY useless to talk to you.
            Finished.
            1. Crang
              -1
              11 February 2014 20: 35
              Quote: Aleks tv
              Actually, he suggested it. And not a little. Read noona more carefully.

              Everything you suggested only concerns the return of the entire external body kit to the appearance of the T-72B, and, on the contrary, cram the insides from the T-90A. And not a word about the main shortcomings that I discussed in my article and measures to eliminate them. Of what you suggested there, you didn’t come up with anything yourself. Absolutely nothing. And as for the TKN-3M on the latest modifications of the T-72.... You just don’t understand yet - there is a deep sacred meaning hidden here, which is not yet clear to you (I have already cleared which way the wind blows) which will take the T-72 to a fundamentally new level human-machine interface.
              1. 0
                11 February 2014 20: 50
                Quote: Krang
                You just don’t understand yet - there is a deep sacred meaning hidden here that is not yet clear to you (I have already seen where the wind is blowing)

                Everything is clear with the comment itself - the man is again nothing not understood..
                But this phrase - Well, just a scribe...
                request

                We're done, Krang, we're finished.
                Or better yet, write a new article about “sacred meaning”...
                Yes
                1. Crang
                  -1
                  11 February 2014 21: 00
                  I actually thought about it, but then changed my mind. You'll peck.
              2. AGM-114
                0
                11 February 2014 20: 53
                Quote: Krang
                And not a word about the main shortcomings that I discussed in my article and measures to eliminate them.

                The shortcomings are sucked out of thin air and the measures are x#ita. The article can be disassembled into quotes and left for the amusement of posterity as an example of standard armored drug addiction.
                1. Crang
                  0
                  11 February 2014 20: 59
                  Quote: AGM-114
                  The shortcomings are sucked out of thin air and the measures are x#ita.

                  When you go into orbit with the tower, as has happened more than a dozen times, then you will repeat it. I really love the T-72 series tanks. There is something in him that you attach your soul to, but he has shortcomings. And this is obvious.
                  1. AGM-114
                    -1
                    11 February 2014 21: 10
                    Quote: Krang
                    That's when you go into orbit with the tower

                    Which does not cancel the x#e measures and drug addiction of the article.
                    Quote: Krang
                    There’s something in it that makes you feel attached to it

                    There is nothing in it.
                    1. Crang
                      0
                      11 February 2014 21: 17
                      Quote: AGM-114
                      There is nothing in it.

                      Yeah - as in the saying: “A man is steel, but a tank is just a piece of iron.” Right?
                  2. +3
                    11 February 2014 21: 14
                    Quote: Krang
                    That's when you go into orbit with the tower,

                    But don't joke with this......
                    words not of your mind.
                    For such phrases, when tankers meet, they hit the scoreboard without warning.

                    What, finally morality and ethics without brakes????????????????????????????????
        2. sapran
          +1
          11 February 2014 16: 57
          “Golden words...” A joke, but to the point.
          How hard is it sometimes to explain to people that not all garbage mounted on armor will be useful and can bear the appropriate name “SCREEN”?!
          From my own experience I can only say that I explained it during a practical lesson.
          since I was convinced that even platoon commanders and company commanders have a very vague understanding of the mechanisms of interaction between a shaped charge and armor elements
    2. +4
      11 February 2014 15: 07
      Quote: Aleks tv
      You got me back in September,

      But he's fun to be around.
      1. +1
        11 February 2014 15: 41
        Quote: Kars
        But he's fun to be around.

        That's not the right word, Andrey.
        laughing
        But I prefer a good conversation or a productive argument.
        I don’t mind admitting my mistake or blunder, you know.

        But knocking on an impenetrable barrier... and not of professional quality...
        But you just get tired.
        You press the keyboard only to make others feel bad... but it’s enough to be Mother Teresa.
        And people will give him a great response to this article.
        "VO" is growing professionally.
        drinks

        Krang - I’m not your opponent, I STILL didn’t fall for it.
        1. +2
          11 February 2014 16: 18
          [quote = Aleks tv]
          [quote=Kars][quote=Aleks TV]You got me back in September,[/quote]
          But he's fun to be with.[/quote]

          Well, gentlemen, I’m surprised at you.

        2. The comment was deleted.
        3. +2
          11 February 2014 16: 25
          Quote: Aleks tv
          And people will give him a great response to this article.



          Calm down Lech, don’t break your heart. Based on requests from radio listeners.

          1. +1
            11 February 2014 16: 51
            Quote: vorobey
            Based on requests from radio listeners.

            laughing good
            I know this song.
            By the way, not everyone understands it. They ask why I laugh at it and often turn it on - not everyone has army humor in their bosom.
            drinks
          2. +1
            11 February 2014 16: 59
            And a video of how students are turned into fighters...
            So, just for a smile:
            wink

        4. The comment was deleted.
        5. +2
          11 February 2014 16: 51
          Quote: Aleks tv
          That's not the right word, Andrey.

          I sent him a link to the book that I sent to you. So that the person would calm down))))
          1. +1
            11 February 2014 17: 03
            Quote: Kars
            I sent you a link to the book.

            Andrey, I still read it in fits and starts.
            I sent you a preliminary opinion, but I’m not ready to say anything about it yet.
            And... “my opinion” will still be subjective, you need to ask the “eighties” people.
            Sergei also reads it, as far as I know.
            But thanks again for the material.
            hi
            1. +1
              11 February 2014 17: 13
              Quote: Aleks tv
              I sent you a preliminary opinion,

              For some reason I’m sure that when reading it (if he wants to, of course), Kreng will write boiling water with joy.
              I don’t read it myself yet - I have a tragedy - on Sunday I developed the screen of my beloved LBook V3, which did not live 2 months before its 6th birthday)) I ordered a new e-reader, it will only be delivered by the weekend.


              By the way, the question arose about the maximum speed of the tank at which you can shoot and hit the target? How many kilometers did you hit the bull’s eye with your turtle?
              1. +1
                11 February 2014 17: 22
                Quote: Kars
                How many kilometers did you hit the bull's-eye with your turtle?

                Somehow I didn’t have time to ask the mechanic...
                laughing
                Andrey, but seriously, I only have practice shooting at low speeds, even less than at the shooting range.
                And more often even from the spot.

                There were a couple of times when I was accompanying the “tape”, they were making fun of me on the go, but for sure it was no higher than 30 km.h. I even find it difficult to answer exactly.
                Maybe the guys have this experience and can tell me...
                request
                1. +1
                  11 February 2014 17: 28
                  In principle, this is enough.
                  And then some people talk about shooting at maximum speed.
                  I started rummaging around in the manual for the T-80B and I can’t find such a point. I’m just wondering if the stabilizer drives are powerful enough?
                  And for one thing, I’ll ask, what is the maximum (well, approximately) speed on an intersection? And do they also have intersections of varying complexity?


                  and that no one except the driver sees the speed of the tank? Isn’t it in the sight?
                  1. +1
                    11 February 2014 17: 59
                    Quote: Kars
                    And for one thing, I’ll ask, what is the maximum (well, approximately) speed on an intersection? And do they also have intersections of varying complexity?

                    Yes, different of course...
                    It is dangerous to make maximum speed in a column, otherwise the accordion will play in any way at the tail of the “ribbon”.
                    I squeezed the maximum speed out of the T-72B only in a SINGLE movement at the tankodrome. 6th and 7th gears are high-speed.
                    Who the hell knows what the speed was - after all, his forehead was pressed to the prism.
                    I did 50-60 km/h exactly.
                    (“The Old Tankman” is in my personal message, read it if you’re interested.
                    Sanya Sparrow and I “understood” each other “there”))).

                    I had several races on the T-80.
                    It was more fun...
                    But at high speed the car begins to “float”... the uterus plays a little from this. But on the T-80 I just... ahem. I was playing around.
                    feel
                  2. The comment was deleted.
                  3. +5
                    11 February 2014 18: 23
                    Quote: Kars
                    In principle, this is enough.
                    And then some people talk about shooting at maximum speed.
                    I started rummaging around in the manual for the T-80B and I can’t find such a point. I’m just wondering if the stabilizer drives are powerful enough?
                    And for one thing, I’ll ask, what is the maximum (well, approximately) speed on an intersection? And do they also have intersections of varying complexity?


                    and that no one except the driver sees the speed of the tank? Isn’t it in the sight?


                    You won't find Andrey. Shoot as you want, but the lower the speed, the more accurate

                    Andrey, I accelerated to 55 along the intersection. And when the “thread” was driven (already at 64), then with its sawmill on the concrete it was accelerated to 65. But this is no longer a tank, but a concrete-piercing unguided projectile. The whole crew fought that day. They brought up the rear of the column and constantly had to catch up.

                    And in the photo is the Libyan version of masquerading as a camel.
                    1. +2
                      11 February 2014 18: 38
                      Special thanks for the photo - I was surprised.
                      Quote: vorobey
                      You won't find Andrey. Shoot as you want

                      And do the stabilizers hold up?

                      А
                      Quote: badger1974
                      the T-62 has a caveat when firing on the move - the speed should not exceed 10-15 km per hour, tanks with an automatic loader can fire over the entire speed range

                      You are very familiar with the T-62, as I remember. Charging a charge at a speed of 30 km?
                      1. +4
                        11 February 2014 18: 52
                        Andrey, at an intersection at a speed of more than 15 km, the gunner will break the entire display on his sight. Throws not like a child inside. What shooting.

                        This is the first and the second, well, the tank will rush forward at maximum speed and the accompanying infantry will sweat to run next to it, or after it, or after it, whatever you like.


                        At 62, at least dance at the throwaway place. so he will dance at speed with a projectile in his hands until he kills everyone. It's just not real.
                      2. +1
                        11 February 2014 18: 57
                        So is there a reservation or not? Because in the quote there is no mention of rough terrain. Let it be on a dirt road. 30 km (also for loading a gun, even from the most convenient ammunition storage location, and BPS)

                        and I think that the tank with AZ has the same problems with the gunner?
                      3. The comment was deleted.
                    2. +2
                      11 February 2014 18: 47
                      Quote: vorobey
                      They brought up the rear of the column and constantly had to catch up.

                      Wah-wah, San.
                      It was you who performed the “accordion”...
                      Oh, it’s exhausting - you’re flying like crazy, but crawling like a turtle. And so on all the time. Death to flies.
                      .................................

                      And about rapid fire, I remembered:
                      Once a guy was blowing in my ears because during the control shooting he was flying with a standard projectile at amazing speed, overtaking other cars...
                      Wow, I laughed then...
                      -One tank rushed forward like a proud deer, and the rest crawled somewhere behind... Well, well. On the tower, it seems, everyone forgot the basics of shooting on a tank director and... without stopping the exercise, they looked admiringly at the rushing hussar.
                      Schazzzzzzzzzz.
                      -A UKS run lasts 3 minutes, no “sniper” sitting on the gunner’s throne will beg to reduce his shooting time - the “path” is not rubber...

                      This is true, I just remembered how they “destroyed” the internet story about shooting practice.
                      lol
                      1. +3
                        11 February 2014 19: 01
                        Quote: vorobey
                        Andrey, at an intersection at a speed of more than 15 km, the gunner will break the entire display on his sight. Throws not like a child inside. What shooting.
                        That's right!
                        This is the first and the second, well, the tank will rush forward at maximum speed and the accompanying infantry will sweat to run next to it, or after it, or after it, whatever you like.

                        And that's for sure!
                        And thirdly, guys forgot to say hi that the stabilizer cannot hold the gun when “jumping” over rough terrain at speed, it’s hard to hold... request , and places it on the hydraulic stop with its power cylinder.
                        Shoot, at least get shot at. wink
                      2. +1
                        11 February 2014 19: 07
                        Quote: Alekseev
                        that the stabilizer cannot hold the gun when “jumping” over rough terrain at speed, it’s hard to hold..., and puts it on a hydraulic stop with its power cylinder.


                        That's exactly what I wanted to hear.
                      3. +1
                        11 February 2014 19: 09
                        Quote: Alekseev
                        Shoot, at least get shot at.

                        Hello, Lesh
                        Today is an evening of memories.
                        hi
                        Well, at least go for the excitement, it’s Tuesday...
                        eheh.
  58. The comment was deleted.
  59. Crang
    0
    11 February 2014 15: 29
    Quote: Aleks tv
    I can even poke my nose:

    Thank you. I'll definitely read it.
  60. Saturn 10
    -3
    11 February 2014 21: 47
    interesting article. reviews are even more interesting. I would like to hear the opinion of tankers praising the T-72 and T-90, especially the modernized T-72B-3 and T-90a (like the latest modernizations of the Russian Defense Ministry, which the designer modernized). Suppose in an oncoming battle at 3 km 10 of our tanks against 10 type99g (PRC) with the jd-3 system or a leopard 2A7 with a DM63 projectile, or an M1A2sepV2 Abrams, or a Japanese type10 (type90), challenger2, leclerc (also with av.zar. like ours) how many tanks will ours be able to destroy before they all burn?
    1. +1
      12 February 2014 16: 34
      Quote: Saturn 10
      interesting article. reviews are even more interesting. I would like to hear the opinion of tankers

      My opinion is that it is possible. wink
      They don’t fight like that, this time, modern combat is of a combined arms nature.
      Such comparisons are only possible purely theoretically, virtually, that’s two.
      Some of the most important performance characteristics of tanks (resistance of armor to various types of ammunition, true characteristics of armor penetration of armored vehicles) are secret, YOU will not find them anywhere. You also won’t know how well the devices, components and assemblies of the machines can withstand hits without penetrating armor.
      these are three.
      It is not the tanks themselves who fight, but the crews and commanders of tank units. That's four.
      That's how many opinions there are.
      And what this or that MBT is like in battle is generally known. And the T-72 of various modifications, although not the “last word,” is on the level. Otherwise, no one would simply buy it and keep it in service.
  61. Crang
    +1
    11 February 2014 22: 57
    Not only does the commander literally give up control of the tank, leaving ourselves a gunner and mechanic, not only does he take enormous risks like a daredevil, but he also plays in a circus performance called: “And why haven’t you riddled me yet, assholes, I’ve been hanging around on stage for a lot of time, performing a stupid dance in front of you to titled “preparing the Utes ZPU for firing.”
    He has utility. When you press your thumb into the end of the "horn" the tower will automatically turn to where your TKN-3 is directed. This is the target designation of the gunner, in which the "commander" light comes on.
    This and there is everything that a tank commander can do with this complex.


    Eeeeh.. All of them think it is necessary to explain the essence of the matter. First of all, it is necessary to understand why and why the so-called appeared. "hunter-shooter" principle. This principle of functional separation of duties between the commander and the gunner-operator first appeared on the KV-1 tank (48-50t) in the late 30s of the last century. Its meaning lies in the fact that the tank commander in battle is only engaged in searching for targets, while also exercising general control of the tank. After detecting a target, he gives the gunner target designation, and he himself proceeds to search for a new target. He did this using the PT-K commander's device. In turn, the gunner’s task is to take aim and accurately hit the target. Several shots if necessary. He did this using the main telescopic sight, or an auxiliary periscope. Why did you decide to do this? The fact is that the observation and aiming devices of that period were not perfect. Having a very small, and fixed magnification, they could not boast of a wide field of view. Before firing an accurate shot, it was necessary to first determine the range to it (very approximately using the “base on target” method), and then enter a correction into the sight (manually, of course), aim accurately (the target in the sight was often comparable in size to the markers and marks of the sight) . All this required extreme concentration and some time from the gunner. In addition, he did not see what was happening around him due to the very small field of view of his sights. For this purpose, so as not to distract the gunner, the target search functions were transferred to the commander. He also carried out general control of the tank, for example its movement. At the same time, the fight is clear - at the moment of the shot, the main thing in the tank is the gunner. Example - a gunner has caught an enemy tank in his sights, but a tree or pipe interferes with him. You need to move the tank a little. Instead of ordering the driver, he is forced to ask permission from the commander, and he, if he wants, will command the mechanic. It is not right. Or the commander, having a command target designation system, can prevent the gunner from destroying the target at the most inopportune moment. In general, for the KV-1 gunner, a commander who gets involved in his affairs (main tank affairs, by the way) is a hindrance, even if he helps him locate targets. Time passed, progress did not stand still. Currently in aviation, a multirole fighter is controlled by one person. It controls both the movement of the aircraft and a solid arsenal of on-board emergency control systems. Which, by the way, includes several dozen different missiles, bombs, gondolas, suspensions, guns, etc. And they don't complain. The maximum crew of a modern tactical strike aircraft is two people. Let's move on to the tanks. I completely understand why the KV-1 has a gunner and commander. And I completely understand why the “hunter-shooter” principle is applied in this way.
  62. Crang
    0
    11 February 2014 22: 58
    But, as for the T-72B3
    - Why is the commander there? Why is there this stupid principle that interferes with the gunner? You yourself lamented the fact that the T-72B3 commander’s workplace does not allow him to shoot instead of the gunner. Do you want to be both a gunner and a commander in one person, Alexey? Your wish has almost come true on.... T-72B3! And it will be fully implemented on the T-72B4, where there will be laser radiation receivers with a perfect warning/protection system for laser irradiation and KUV with fully automatic guidance missiles. Sit in the gunner's seat in a T-72B3 and think - why the hell does it need a commander? He has two first-class devices, one of which is the Sosna-U combined thermal imaging device. They have variable magnification with smooth adjustment and a wide field of view. In the mode of searching for a target and admiring the scenery, the gunner observes in 1x magnification mode with a maximum wide angle. I saw something - an enemy tank or a naked woman in the window - and immediately “ran into” the picture, increasing the magnification to 12x. If the target needs to be destroyed, then with an automated control system it’s a couple of trifles and a matter of a few seconds. There is no need to count/enter anything by hand. In essence, this gunner's sight is a wide-angle panorama and a high-precision sight in one bottle. If someone takes aim at you from the side, the warning system will work and give you the direction. In short, in the T-72B3 the commander as such is NOT NEEDED. He just gets in the way. The target is searched by the gunner by rotating the turret 360 degrees (the commander's device can only formally rotate 360 ​​degrees, the real limitation is the flexibility of the commander's back) and a sight with minimal magnification/maximum field of view.
    This is what you do Alexey. First, instead of these screens, buy a normal healthy TV (in an industrial version) 17-19 inches and mount it on the dashboard, connecting it instead of a small monitor. Next, take another tank of the same type. It has a full-time crew: commander, gunner, driver. And this is what you do with your tank: the driver sits in his place as he should. You are like a commander take the gunner's seat - this is your new command seat and from here you now command and exercise general control of the tank. The guy who climbs into the commander’s seat (formerly yours) gets a new position: anti-aircraft gunner-observer. His task is to control the huge machine gun mounted on his turret in battle and control the air and the upper floors. When there is nothing for his machine gun to do, he monitors the situation and simply helps you. Conduct a competition with that other tank and you will be amazed how much easier and more comfortable it will be for you. Now controlling the battle and destroying the enemy you can come close to those in the World of Tanks game. The machine gun needs to be installed somehow so that it is aimed from the commander’s TKN-3M. And since now you are driving around the school... well, you are not particularly needed in the tank during the day. And at night you can just go to sleep - the gunner and mechanic can handle it without you.
    1. AGM-114
      0
      11 February 2014 23: 18
      Are you a drug addict? Sleep it off, huh?
    2. sapran
      0
      11 February 2014 23: 20
      I understand this is sarcasm...
      There will be an opportunity to just try to ride in the commander's and gunner's positions just to get started.
      Then make it more difficult and try not just to be a passenger, but first to drive the tank along a given route (that is, command the driver)
      At the third stage, try to grasp the difference between the commander and the gunner (FUNDAMENTALLY evaluate what the “salt” is) And now try to add to the driver the detection and visualization of the task to the gunner and the driver.
      ...And somehow it’s advisable to listen to the talking hat; suddenly something “fucking” from the “father” flies past the “listener”...
      I'm not exaggerating much...sorry.
      1. Crang
        -1
        11 February 2014 23: 45
        Quote: sapran
        Yes, and somehow it would be desirable to listen to the talking hat, suddenly something “fucking” from the “father” flies past the “listener”...

        What prevents you from listening to this “hat” while sitting in the gunner’s place?
        Quote: sapran
        Then make it more difficult and try not just to be a passenger, but first to drive the tank along a given route (that is, command the driver)

        What's a driver without brains? You just need to give him a general direction and let him go on his own. The only thing is that he needs help in cramped conditions because... he just can't see from where he is.
        Quote: sapran
        Now try to add detection to the driver and display the task to the gunner

        And here there will be no target designation anymore. Here it will be seen and destroyed. The anti-aircraft gunner-observer on the right wields a machine gun. Moreover, it can do this simultaneously with firing from the main caliber. Agree, that's also a plus. You just need a big, high-resolution screen on your dashboard. And a fire control system with an automatic control system for several “subscribers” and an automatic firing mode at them. All this will happen, and most importantly, the “hunter-shooter” principle is already outdated. For a tank commander, the tank should become a kind of exoskeleton that makes and repeats his every move. The anti-aircraft gunner-machine gunner in this main “man-machine” system is a separate, independent circuit. And the driver is just a temporary misunderstanding.
    3. +2
      11 February 2014 23: 23
      Quote: Krang
      And since now you are driving around the school... well, you are not particularly needed in the tank during the day. And at night you can just go to sleep - the gunner and mechanic can handle it without you.

      Listen, Krang, what happened just now?.........

      -You don’t need to invent my thoughts for me,
      -Don’t push me anywhere with your decision,
      -I don’t need your fantasies about TVs, I’m not going to buy them, just as I’m not going to break the fuel system, freeing up the tank rack and tinkering with the American GP for communication.

      Advice for you:
      1. Go and serve first in the Tank Forces.
      2. Formulate your conjectures on the “internal structure” of the tank, the location of the crew in it and the role of the “fighter tank” in the tactical picture of the battle and.....send it to the GABTU.

      And don’t forget to add your old posts on the modernization of the T-72:
      Quote: Krang
      - Introduce a projectile for natural needs, so that you can address the need and shoot waste without leaving the tank (in the event of a nuclear war).
      - And in the place of the gunner to mount a remotely controlled turret with a powerful flamethrower, so that it would be possible to burn enemy soldiers and grenade throwers from the windows of houses, loopholes of bunkers, cellar openings, etc.


      Here's a rough plan of action.
      Quite normal: after serving, you will already be a TANK MAN and can safely kick open the door to the offices of the Directorates of the General Staff of the RF Ministry of Defense.

      If this plan does not suit you, then:
      - Defend your candidate’s and doctor’s thesis on these issues (which you write about) and boldly shake these documents in front of the Tankers’ noses like a Pundit in front of the fuel oil that doesn’t understand anything.

      I am writing quite seriously, without mockery........ I am not hinting at anything.
      Well, what else can I offer you...
      request
      1. 0
        11 February 2014 23: 36
        Alexei! Invite him to go to bed. This article will soon surpass all topics about the Maidan or will outlive Dom-2. It's no longer funny to her! IMHO.
        1. +2
          11 February 2014 23: 56
          Quote: Nikoha.2010
          Alexei! Invite him to go to bed.

          Sergey, I already suggested...

          Conclusion:
          Well, all the tankers don’t understand anything about armored vehicles and combat vehicles, having served for ten or more years... it seems like I’m not the only one in the comments here.
          And he is a Dartagnan...it happens.
          request

          But in principle - yes.
          Let me go and “sink the mass” myself, it’s 2:00 am.
          Good luck, guys!
          drinks
    4. 0
      13 February 2014 21: 12
      Quote: Krang
      Sit in the gunner's seat in a T-72B3 and think - why the hell does he need a commander?...

      And then sit in the driver’s seat and try to say the same thing.
      What does the mechanic see through his triplex, which is directed forward and stands at a height of a maximum of one and a half meters from the ground? How can he choose a route so as not to fall behind, get ahead of, or climb onto the tank of his comrade driving next to him? what part of the battlefield does he see? What's going on on the sides and back? Should the gunner tell him, who is looking through the sight, looking for the enemy, or who?
      1. Crang
        0
        13 February 2014 21: 13
        Quote: Bad_gr
        Should the gunner tell him, who is looking through the sight, looking for the enemy, or who?

        Short? YES. The gunner now has such instruments that he no longer needs the commander’s specialized wide-angle instrument. Just like the commander himself.
        1. +1
          13 February 2014 21: 33
          Quote: Krang
          that he no longer needs the commander’s specialized wide-angle device. Just like the commander himself.

          This is completely refuted by modern tanks such as Abrams M1A2, Challenger 2, Merkava 3/4.
          1. Crang
            0
            14 February 2014 10: 14
            Quote: Kars
            This is completely refuted by modern tanks such as Abrams M1A2, Challenger 2, Merkava 3/4.

            M1A2, Challenger-2, Merkava-3/4, although they are still quite modern tanks, are certainly not the latest technology.
        2. 0
          13 February 2014 21: 53
          Quote: Krang
          Short? YES. The gunner now has such instruments that he no longer needs the commander’s specialized wide-angle instrument. Just like the commander himself.

          I think that on the march the gunner will still be able to perform the duties of a commander, but in a combat situation, where you have to look out for the enemy, and destroy those found, and adjust your actions with the rest of the tanks of the unit, and watch the road for the mechanical driver...
          In general, this tank will not survive long on the battlefield.
          1. Crang
            0
            14 February 2014 10: 17
            Quote: Bad_gr
            where it is necessary to look out for the enemy and destroy those found,

            Mainly look out. When detected, destroy the target with ASC and ACS within seconds. In principle, a computer can do this operation - it shoots more accurately than a human, no matter how stupid it is.
  63. Crang
    +1
    12 February 2014 00: 02
    Quote: Aleks tv
    Well, all the tankers don’t understand anything about armored vehicles and combat vehicles, having served for ten or more years... it seems like I’m not the only one in the comments here.

    I didn't say that, pay attention. That's what you said. It’s just that for some reason you are not sufficiently justifying your statements, mainly using the words “charter”, “rules”, etc. Statutes and rules (like laws) are written by people. Ordinary people. They are not always correct and tend to become outdated, ceasing to correspond to reality. That’s why we need discussions with living brains that don’t have restrictions hammered into them in the form of rules and regulations, but are constantly trying to explore that gray wall that stands beyond the boundaries of the current rules. Do you understand? First you need to create a scientific basis, and only then make technology for it. With us, it often turns out the other way around - first we created the equipment (the same tank), and then we developed and adjusted the theoretical basis for it. It is not right.
  64. Motador
    0
    12 February 2014 14: 44
    I agree that it needs to be modernized, otherwise if you fight in a city, then it is not suitable at all. It can be dangerous in a vacant lot. One thing I don’t understand is why the T-90 is not produced in large quantities, it’s also the main tank.
  65. Crang
    0
    13 February 2014 08: 40
    The second part of this article with drawings, drawings, detailed descriptions and estimates will be published soon.
    1. AGM-114
      -1
      13 February 2014 10: 32
      Did they bring you herbs from the gallery?
      1. Crang
        -1
        13 February 2014 10: 38
        They don't oblige you to anything. You can go into battle on a standard T-34 and fulfill all the requirements of the charter and rules. I drove the T-34-85 - this tank has no chance in modern combat, even if you are hung up on rules and regulations.
        1. The comment was deleted.
          1. 0
            13 February 2014 11: 02
            Quote: Krang
            with drawings, drawings, detailed descriptions and estimates

            A flag in your hands, a pipe in your teeth, a drum around your neck.
            1. +1
              13 February 2014 11: 11
              Quote: Krang
              The second part of this article with drawings, drawings, detailed descriptions and estimates will be published soon.
              And also with the specification of the materials used, it is desirable...
              1. AGM-114
                -2
                13 February 2014 12: 05
                Quote: svp67
                And also with the specification of the materials used, it is desirable...

                Shit and sticks, what’s there to guess.
  66. Ramzes
    0
    13 February 2014 16: 37
    What we can immediately agree on right away is the installation of new screens, tower protection and NLD. GPS is also a useful thing.)
  67. 0
    13 February 2014 22: 44
    Dear users of the Military Review website! It amazes me how real experts you are can state this article! In reality, the author of the article did not even sit in a tank, but speaks as if he understands. Minus for God's sake, but I am deeply offended that a “noob” who picked up on the Internet under the login Krang published this article and you are all ready to discuss this topic. And this quote “Now controlling the battle and destroying the enemy will allow you to come close to those in the World of Tanks game” is without comment. Maybe now, in connection with the release of the update in Wot, he will publish a new article? Real tankers, honor and praise to you, do not fall for useless comments, we are very pleased to hear the opinions and assessments of real professionals! And I won’t even tell my children about caps and being barefoot in a tank! By the way, everyone who survived and returned from the War had a HOLIDAY!!!
  68. 0
    13 February 2014 23: 02
    Quote: Krang

    Ivan, I replied in a personal message the second time, the computer is buggy.
    I'll try to see.
    Write it.

    Alex.
  69. 0
    5 October 2014 11: 56
    Interesting point of view of the author.
  70. 0
    26 August 2018 19: 02
    The author’s tone reveals a juvenile hatred of the USSR. And illiteracy coupled with a lack of personal experience. Even from the very beginning of the article, stereotypes and cliches are prominent. Since when did Abramas become the newest? They don't even let him out. The newest tank is the Leclerc, which has big reliability problems. And so on.
    “The Abrams and Merkavas, hung with a lot of machine guns and stupid heavy armor all around, will be better here. Not to say that they are more invulnerable than the T-72B, but somehow more reliable, or something.” Whether? Do you mean dull and heavy armor? Is armor really sharp? And where did you see the protection in a circle?