Military Review

Such a small "Superjet"

99
The project has already gone too far for the state to allow it to ingloriously die under the pressure of loans.


When passengers first see the novelty of the domestic aviation industry - "Superjet", they often have a surprise. Why does a plane with a big name look so small? In the same Sheremetyevo, where “Superjet” can be found more often than at any other airport in the world, they are lost against the background of not only long-haul airliners, but also completely ordinary Airbus A320 and Boeing 737.

But the hype that accompanied the creation of Russia's first post-Soviet airliner, in our information age, set up future passengers at least for a competitor Airbus or Boeing, an aircraft that would reintroduce the country into an elite, very small club of manufacturers of modern passenger airliners.

Therefore, the new product is usually not compared with aircraft of the same class as it, not so frequent guests at our Embraer E-190 and Bombardier CRJ1000 airports, but with the familiar short-haul products of the giants of the American and European aviation industries. Fortunately, after the withering away of domestic technology, it was she who flooded our airports. Such a comparison initially puts the Russian aircraft in unequal conditions. First of all, RRJ, Russian Regional Jet, as it was called in the early years of its existence, did not reflect on it as the savior of the entire aviation industry of Russia or the competitor of Airbus. It was just an initiative project of the Sukhoi company, its second attempt to diversify its business into a civilian segment in anticipation of a drop in sales of its main products — fighters of the Su-27 family.

Such a small "Superjet"When at the very beginning of the two thousandths, the RRJ was just being thought about, the goal set — to create a demanded passenger aircraft from scratch — was bold and extremely ambitious for Sukhoi. Then he was a manufacturer of only combat aircraft and was in independent voyage. After 10 years within the framework of the United Aircraft Building Corporation (UAC), in which practically all the remnants of the country's aviation industry are consolidated, the project still looks ambitious, but not nearly as large. It is simply not capable of being a “motor” that pulls forward the united domestic aviation industry.

The niche chosen for RRJ is initially modest and not very prestigious - a jet regional plane for minor lines that do not provide loading for standard narrow-body short-haul airliners. Such regional planes are inferior to Airbus and Boeing products not only by their size, but usually also by convenience for passengers and crews. The global demand for them is small and now barely exceeds the mark of one hundred aircraft per year. For the first half of this year, airlines all over the world received only 50 vehicles of this class - from the Canadian Bombardier CRJ700 to the Brazilian Embraer E195. Another dozen provided aviation industries of Russia and Ukraine. For comparison: larger Airbus and Boeing aircraft in the same half a year were delivered around 600 units. The number of only one American "bestseller" Boeing 737-800 increased by 182 instance.

In terms of cost, the segment of large regionalists is also not impressive - over the past year, all of their deliveries earned four to five billion dollars, completely lost against the background of tens of billions of dollars earned by two aviation agents of the passenger aircraft industry. It is not surprising that they look at this segment and the producers of the so-called second echelon, working on it, are so indulgent that they are ready to help them with advice-others.

Even with the most ambitious plans to produce 70 "Superjet" per year with the current catalog price of 35 million dollars, the annual revenue of Sukhoi Civil Aircraft (GSS) from their sale will be no more than two and a half billion dollars. In practice, airplanes are almost never sold at the catalog price. Discounts from it in 20 – 30 percent are the norm, so even a fully loaded company is unlikely to be able to earn at least two billion dollars a year.

With the seeming significance of this amount, it is no longer incredible for the domestic aviation industry. Total UAC revenue in 2012, when the entire 12 SSJ was produced, amounted to 171 billion rubles, which is more than five billion dollars. Of course, it was received not from the sale of GSS products, but mainly from the production of military aircraft both for export and for substantially increased state defense orders. Only slightly less than 126 billion rubles earned in 2012-m "Helicopters of Russia". The United Engine Corporation, which focuses on the production of aircraft engines, helped out 129 billions.

In the coming years, the revenues of these large corporations will continue to grow due to an increase in the supply of domestic aircraft. In the meantime, Sukhoi Civil Aircraft will not reach the planned production rate of five SSJs a month earlier than the 2015. By that time, on the scale of corporations, this program will seem even less significant financially.

Yes, even if the GSS will succeed in establishing a truly mass production, the number of aircraft produced by itself is not an indicator of project success and a guarantee of profitability.

A good example is the Japanese regionalist 60 of the last century, YS-11, who was created with the active support of the government and had no less ambitious tasks than the current Superjet. The plane was an attempt by Japan from scratch to create its civil aviation industry. From the very beginning, it was considered not only and not so much as a “workhorse” for national airlines, but as an export product capable of attracting currency into an economy destroyed by war and occupation.

The aircraft used a very large number of imported components, including the engine, which made it possible to quickly certify it with the US aviation authorities. Over the decade, YS-11 was produced in 182 copies, exported to many countries, including the United States and Western Europe. Its separate copies fly today.

With all this, the program YS-11 is considered a major failure of the Japanese aviation industry, as it became deeply unprofitable for the participating companies that failed to cover their development and production costs, which turned out to be significantly higher than planned. Failure put an end to the dreams of an independent civil aviation industry in Japan and for decades drove away from the country's leadership the desire to play in this field. Only now the next attempt of the Japanese aviation industry is being prepared to rise in the air - the regional MRJ.

I would like to believe that the fate of the Russian Superjet will turn out to be more successful, but this cannot be guaranteed yet. Its life cycle as a competitive product is limited. Now the plane, in terms of its technical and economic indicators, is not worse than any of its current competitors. But by the end of this decade, a modernized Brazilian Embraer should appear. Even today, its far from new CF34 engines are in no way inferior to the economic indicators of the Russian-French SaM146, and the remotorization to promising P&W geared engines will immediately make the current generation of SSJ uncompetitive.

A few previously remotorized E-Jet airlines will begin to receive Japanese MRJ and Canadian CSeries. Although they are not direct competitors to the Russian aircraft, they are close to it in terms of capacity and will inevitably select some potential customers.

Most likely it will reach the series and the long-suffering Chinese ARJ21. The regionalist, who, on the instructions of the Chinese Communist Party, was supposed to start transporting passengers five years ago, still cannot complete certification tests. Despite the fact that ARJ21 made its first flight only half a year later than the SSJ, it will be able to receive certificates from the aviation authorities of China, and then the USA FAA not earlier than the end of the year 2014. This shows how difficult it is to create a modern passenger aircraft that meets stringent international requirements.

Delays regarding plans with certification periods first, and then serious problems with the deployment of mass production, reduced the life cycle of SSJ. Each year the delay cost several dozen "Superjet", which will never be built.

According to Forecast International Research Center's forecast, 2013 An-2023 / 60, 148 Bombardier CRJ, 158 Bombardier CSeries, 376 ARJ352, 103 Embraer E-Jet, including the upgraded 21 X-NUMX 973 285-206 XNUMX XNUMX XNUMX XNUMX XNUMX XNUMX XNUMX XNUMX XNUMX XNUMX XNUMX Bombardier CRJ SSJ.

Overseas production estimates of just over two hundred SSJs seem overly pessimistic. Already, on the Russian plane there are about a hundred firm orders. Successful implementation will undoubtedly attract new customers. Gaining momentum mass production. Since the summer of this year, GSS have reached the rate of release of two SSJ per month. Production becomes rhythmic. The most complex chain of cooperation necessary for modern aircraft industry has been debugged. Not a single passenger plane in the post-Soviet stories Russia and not close to the achieved rate of release.

But two cars per month is just 24 per year, which does not correspond to the plans of the GSS itself, or the delivery schedules agreed with the buyers. In the autumn, the pace of release has grown, but it’s still clear that Sukhoi Civil Aircraft will not be able to reach the planned production of five aircraft per month or 2015 per year before 60 of the year. And by the end of the decade, its sales will fall due to the emergence of new, more economical and younger competitors. This makes it obvious that the officially announced plans for implementing the 800 SSJ are unrealizable. It does not look too realistic to even reach the mark of the half-thousand SSJ produced modifications currently available. This calls into question the payback of the entire project.

The delay in reaching planned targets of production has already led the GSS to the brink of a financial abyss. The development and start-up program was funded mostly from extra-budgetary sources, mainly medium-term commercial loans and bond loans. The terms of payment for them inexorably approached, and the revenue from the supply of one or two planes per month simply did not allow to repay debts on time. This required to borrow again and again not for the development of the company, but for keeping it afloat, pending the deployment of high-grade production.

By the middle of 2013, the GSS debt load exceeded 70 billion rubles. Only interest on them for this year will be paid about four billion rubles - the cost of four or five brand new "Superjet".

At the same time, the production of SSJ is still unprofitable. The cost of manufacturing one machine is currently just under one billion rubles. At the same time, the sales price for start-up customers at 200 – 300 is millions of rubles below cost. Of course, these are planned losses, temporary dumping in order to regain for themselves a piece of the competitive market of regional aircraft. With an increase in production rates, the cost of production gradually decreases and the catalog price for subsequent customers is noticeably higher than for start-up ones. As a result, an exit to 2014 – 2015 for operational break-even looks attainable. But while the financial condition of the manufacturer is only getting worse, debts and losses are accumulating, and huge interest payments are hanging around the neck of a millstone.

But the SuperJet project has already gone too far for the state to allow it to ingloriously die under the pressure of short-term and medium-term loans, which have nothing to return. State officials acted unusually wisely for them, choosing the best way to save the "hope of the domestic aviation industry." The help came in the form of an unusually long-term loan from the state Vnesheconombank, which provided the GSS with a billion dollars at 8,5 percent per annum for 12 years. This loan is not intended for the development of production, but simply allows refinancing the loans looming over the project, delaying the issue of loan repayment before 2024, when basic and long-term SuperJet programs already come to their logical conclusion due to obsolescence.

This removed the threat of immediate bankruptcy from the GSS, but it is unlikely by that time, even with high demand for its aircraft, the company will be able to successfully repay its debts. To give them will have the following projects of the company. Therefore, after reaching the operational break-even, when at least the proceeds from the sold machines will exceed the cost of their production, the GSS will have to seriously engage in the development of a successor to SSJ. In fact, it's time to think about such an airplane right now. But such a development requires an investment of additional hundreds of millions of dollars. And without that, the company struggling to exist simply cannot afford it now. Nevertheless, she will definitely have to go back to the subject matter of the extended SSJ and the more advanced SSJ-NG.

To date, the program has demanded more than three billion dollars from GSS to develop, test, create production and after-sales service systems. Moreover, R & D directly cost less than a billion dollars, and the greatest costs fell on the launch of mass production, which still requires additional investments.

Creating a small regional "Superjet" required huge costs, unprecedented in the post-Soviet aviation industry in Russia. It is unlikely that in the foreseeable future this project alone will be able to recoup them. Nevertheless, during its implementation, invaluable experience was gained in designing, certifying, launching production and creating an after-sales service system for a modern world-class passenger aircraft.

Replaced him as the flagship of the domestic aviation MS-21 more bold. The promising short-haul narrow-body airliner of the KLA is now claiming to play in a completely different league. He should throw the glove no longer to the second-tier aircraft manufacturers, but the unconditional leaders of the global aircraft industry, to fight for a market of more than a thousand airplanes per year.

Do not be a regionalist "Sukhoi", who proved that Russia is able to create a modern passenger plane from scratch, could only laugh at these plans. Now MC-21, whatever name it may receive as a result, is taken seriously. It will be easier for him to go along the beaten track, more chances of success.

But it will require large investments. Even according to a cautious official estimate of UAC, the cost of developing a domestic competitor to short-haul Boeing and Airbus aircraft is at least seven billion dollars. As the experience of the SSJ project shows, this amount will only grow in the process of deploying mass production and commissioning. Inevitable delays in development, without which not a single modern aviation project could manage, will also lead to an increase in costs compared to the plan. As a result, MC-21 is unlikely to meet less than 10 billions of dollars. Therefore, the potential damage in case of failure or failure of the project will be much higher. It will be measured not by hundreds of millions, but by billions of dollars.

In order to minimize the risk of failure when creating an MC-21, the lessons of SSJ development, certification and operation should be taken into account as much as possible. They were obtained in a difficult way - by stuffing cones on their mistakes. The path is painful, but intelligible and memorable.

Unfortunately, for several years SSJ and MC-21 developed, though in parallel, but almost independently from each other. As a result, the differences between them are now more than similarities. This greatly complicates the adaptation of the developments of the Sukhoi Civil Aircraft to the new project. However, MC-21 is still at a stage where it is possible. And the more unification we manage to achieve between these projects, the better will be their future prospects.

“Superjet” has come a long way from the “paper airplane”, which existed only in sketches, to a world-class export product. The cost of this was high. It is unlikely that the project as a whole will become a commercial success. But the resulting positive and negative experience can and should save a lot more in subsequent programs of the Russian aviation industry. Then, if they succeed, MC-21 and future projects of the KLA will be largely due to the modest little Superjet.
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  1. Backfire
    Backfire 16 November 2013 08: 00
    15
    Yeah, almost finished Tu-334 was sacrificed to Poghosyan and his intrigues. As a result, a lot of money was thrown in, and at the exit "an underplane". It's funny that the presidential administration buys exactly the Tu-334 and not the Superjets, why would that be?
    1. Lyapis
      Lyapis 16 November 2013 09: 12
      37
      Is Poghosyan to blame again? You probably personally saw how "almost finished Tu-334" is sacrificed to him?
      And why did the Superjet become “an underplane?” You probably think that it does not fly as well as the “almost finished Tu-334”?
      And by the way, the rumors that the president’s affairs are being purchased by the Tu-334 have not been confirmed, so this argument is past the box office!
      1. bolonenkov
        bolonenkov 16 November 2013 09: 54
        29
        Tu-334 would be bought only in the Russian Federation, and he wouldn’t have bought a foreign one by its performance characteristics.
        The reason for choosing foreign suppliers is not only the lower weight or higher reliability of the systems. The main and main criterion is the possibility of certification of components separately, and systems in the aircraft - according to EASA / FAA. As well as the ability to create these systems for reasonable time, money, with a guarantee of quality and price stability. Russian suppliers did not undertake to provide either the first, second, or third. And the task was unequivocal: the possibility of certification SSJ according to international standards. This is one of the basic principles, if you want, of the “cornerstones” of this project, without which it would not have been implemented.

        Think about what would happen if the superjet were NOT put all the best that was at the time of design. And put on the principle of "if only domestic." The answer is very simple: it would have turned out another Tu-334, an airplane that was not certified in the west and not sold even in Russia itself.

        Airbus, Boeing, Embraer, MRJ and CRJ have the same situation with units. All aircraft manufacturers put on their liners the best that is on the planet and no one bothers with pseudo-patriotic ideas in the style of "put the domestic". Whether there are many or many domestic PKIs, it is never important for an aircraft manufacturer to do it, he needs to make an “airplane” product, so that it is no worse than competitors!


        And it’s not the task of the aircraft manufacturer to raise the entire industry; it will never have enough money or time for this. The task of raising the industry is important, but other structures must do this, not the design bureau or the aircraft builder.
        1. tegezen
          tegezen 16 November 2013 12: 11
          27
          And who would buy the TU-334 in Russia? There are no orders for the finished Tu-204 cm, except for state ones. Nobody needs it, and that 334 is also unnecessary, nobody needs an obsolete, backward, heavy plane. Except Boguslaev. He needed to sell his antediluvian engines somewhere, and he hoped that they would sponsor them at the expense of the Russian budget. By the way, he sponsors quietly all this srach about the 334th. Through custom articles in Aif, through Roman Gusarov. Our professional patriots are being conducted, they just need to know once again that they have all been blamed. And the article is excellent. In general, RUSNANO received 10 lard greens and nothing, in Moscow, one denouement cost 2 lard and also seems to be normal. A 3 mlr. on a new plane that flies and in a series it's like crazy expenses. The Americans won the F-35 for more than 50 mln. spent and the end is not visible, on the Komanch helicopter 18 mln. - and the project was closed. The aircraft industry is pulling the whole economy and then gobbling is definitely not the place.
          1. Akim
            Akim 16 November 2013 12: 18
            10
            Quote: tegezen
            Except Boguslaev. He needed to sell his antediluvian engines somewhere, and he hoped that they would sponsor them at the expense of the Russian budget.

            He wanted to assemble it in Kiev, and put the engines like An-148, and D-436-148 is clearly not antediluvian. If the Tu-334 is not a competitor, why not sell it to him? He is a loyal competitor.
            1. tegezen
              tegezen 16 November 2013 12: 26
              +3
              There is no possibility in Ukraine to establish a series, if there were such an opportunity, An-148 would have been collected for 50 pieces long ago. And what Boguslaev said that the 334th wants to buy is just words, to the public, he is a smart guy who understands that this is unrealistic. I would like to - sold, did not want to.
              1. Akim
                Akim 16 November 2013 13: 21
                +3
                Quote: tegezen
                There is no possibility in Ukraine to establish a series, if there was such an opportunity, An-148 would have been collected 50 pieces long ago

                It is not a matter of opportunity, but of orders. Would they and mass release would go.
          2. timer
            timer 16 November 2013 22: 14
            +1
            So let’s blow billions into a superjet. We don’t have enough boars. We have nowhere to go. But seriously, it’s not about slander, but efficiency, quality and necessity! Therefore, it is necessary to relate to projects in this industry wisely (measure seven times, cut once).
          3. sasha127
            sasha127 17 November 2013 10: 18
            -13 qualifying.
            There is nothing Russian in the Superjet aircraft, the bulk of orders are received by foreign companies. Part of the engine is produced by Shecma, France, part by the Russian NPO Saturn, and the final assembly of the engine is also there. So whose economy this aircraft industry pulls more is a question.
            In my opinion, money and orders should be placed in a country of their own, and not be bought by foreign companies. In short, money should be invested in the development of their aircraft industry.
            1. evil hamster
              evil hamster 17 November 2013 13: 53
              +5
              Quote: sasha127
              There is nothing Russian on the Superjet plane

              In it the Russian airplane itself
            2. rJIiOK
              rJIiOK 18 November 2013 13: 24
              +2
              Alexander, I'm sorry that is not the topic.
              Tighten your knowledge of the Russian language, then your arguments will be treated more seriously.
              1. dmitreach
                dmitreach 2 December 2013 20: 21
                -1
                rJIiOK, a remark in the subject! Another topic!
                After the sixteenth "oshipke z ocpyatkoy" I lost count ...
          4. lucidlook
            lucidlook 18 November 2013 03: 48
            0
            Quote: tegezen
            antediluvian engines

            How do you propose to modernize engine building in the Russian Federation? By refusing to produce engines in general and switching to import?

            Do you know how NIIKOR and modernization are used for sales funds? No sales - there is neither one nor the other. Who benefits from this? RF? Something I doubt. And in the patriotism of those who make decisions not in favor of the Russian Federation - too.
        2. Papakiko
          Papakiko 16 November 2013 12: 29
          +4
          Quote: bolonenkov
          All aircraft manufacturers put on their liners the best that is on the planet and no one bothers with pseudo-patriotic ideas in the style of "put the domestic"

          At the start of projects, the interests of all market participants are agreed upon.
          See the All Nippon Airways Fleet or Air Japan Fleet for an example.
          Most of the ships there are "loaves"!
          Look how many parts and components in "loaves" in% have Japon roots.
          Boeing and Airbus are extremely interested in VSMPO-Avisma and see what is happening with the company. Everything related to them is being done and flourishing (spare parts, tools, equipment, equipment, salaries, and even the current maintenance of workshop premises). Everything else is simply killed with levers from Moscow.
          Prospects: SSZh- will fly and will be produced 2-3 boards per month (maybe up to 5 in rare months will bring).
          MSI-21- will go into series, but the prospects from the first are not very different.
          UAC needs to revive Ruslanka with maximum modernization of units, parts and materials. Only without Ukrainian "relatives-friends". The latter, under pressure from outside, will not give the project life. Which they have been doing for the last two decades.
          We live until 2017 and see where the life curve leads.
        3. vjhbc
          vjhbc 16 November 2013 22: 58
          +2
          In the United States, the main criterion in choosing an airplane is the manufacturer, and this applies to all procurement participants and is even more stringent than for the state, therefore the state there can still afford to buy a foreign airplane, and the private trader doesn’t buy in Amirikan, as they say in Belarus, and who is stubborn in advertising, if you don’t have problems, then we’ll go to meet you (tax, ecology, emigration, financial, etc.) and for this purpose certification also works, enter such certification in Russia that more than one Boeing and an airbus could pass it and forbid flight over the territory of Russia of non-certified aircraft and all of these will come to you and begin under normal agreement
          Quote: bolonenkov
          Airbus, Boeing, Embraer, MRJ and CRJ have the same situation with units. All aircraft manufacturers put on their liners the best that is on the planet and no one bothers with pseudo-patriotic ideas in the style of "put the domestic". Whether there are many or many domestic PKIs, it is never important for an aircraft manufacturer to do it, he needs to make an “airplane” product, so that it is no worse than competitors!
        4. lucidlook
          lucidlook 18 November 2013 03: 43
          0
          I'm wildly sorry, but! Regional plane is made for the needs of the Russian Federation primarily? For domestic carriers? For the Russian economy? Or primarily for export? This is very important to know. If for export, then everything is correct, we must focus on the requirements of potential customers abroad, on how, to whom and for how much we will sell, on what their requests, standards, etc. etc.

          If the plane is made primarily to replace obsolete domestic airliners on domestic airlines - firstly, and only secondly, as a competitor to imported cars, then you still need to be guided primarily on the requirements and standards of Russian ministries and Russian air carriers. Well, that’s obvious!

          And then it’s not at all necessary to set "all the best that was at the time of design", because it a) makes the product more complicated and more expensive; and b) makes production dependent on imports (and / or license fees).

          There is another point - the loading of domestic capacities and the time (!) For which these same capacities will be able to give out the required quality in the right amount. I modestly believe that an airplane that is 95% domestic parts still slightly more meets the requirements of loading and developing domestic industry than .... uh ... than the other option, to put it mildly.

          And in conclusion, with regard to certificates:
          1. evil hamster
            evil hamster 18 November 2013 11: 15
            +3
            The domestic market is quite small and is not able to recoup production and recapture serious costs, besides you did not notice it is possible, but most of the AKs we have are private and they are not typical when buying airliners where they are built, they generally do not care about the fate of the domestic aircraft industry. Therefore, it makes no sense to make a plane for export or for the domestic market, the plane should be alone and AK should want to take it because it will be beneficial to them - this is the only right way in this situation.
            P.S. By the way, about the certificate for Tu334, I honestly don’t know if they received extensions, but what they received in 2004 (I just don’t remember 2003 or 2004) was a verdict
            1. badabing
              badabing 18 November 2013 11: 34
              0
              this is what a fright the domestic market, suddenly, turned out to be small ??!
              the domestic market of our country is able to recoup any development and production of a fully domestic aircraft in a series
              which will have a very positive effect on its (market) increase exponentially
              in the meantime, we make "our" jet and send all the money not for modernization, but in other people's pockets, the market for you will only decrease
              here are some analyzes of the situation,
              http://malchish.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=414&Itemid=35
              1. evil hamster
                evil hamster 18 November 2013 20: 54
                +1
                From the very fact that the new main planes are bought in distinct quantities by the 5 main AK countries of the AFL, Transa, Utah, C7, and Russia IMHO. everyone else either wears Soviet remnants or consumes beavers with watermelons.
                Quote: badabing
                the domestic market of our country is able to recoup any development and production of a fully domestic aircraft in a series

                You are overly optimistic, which is apparently caused by a lack of information.
            2. lucidlook
              lucidlook 18 November 2013 15: 03
              +2
              Quote: evil hamster
              The domestic market is quite small and is not able to recoup production and recapture serious costs,

              Is that even so? .. But, for example, Boeing thinks differently, although, of course, with what to compare and what to swing.

              "Boeing estimates the civil aircraft market in Russia and the CIS at $ 140 billion."

              According to the forecast of Boeing [NYSE: BA] in the next 20 years, 1 new aircraft for a total of $ 170 billion will be delivered to Russian and CIS airlines


              However, if the developers of the liner have swung at crowding out with world the market of Embriere, Bombardier and Airbus (with its A318), then I want to wish them every success. Just - can it be that chasing the golden crane, again, as a result, we get a duck under the bed?

              Quote: evil hamster
              Therefore, it makes no sense to make a plane for export or for the domestic market, the plane should be alone and AK should want to take it because it will be beneficial to them - this is the only right way in this situation.

              So far, it is profitable for most private traders to use (in one form or another) used planes. To make it roughly clear what exactly we are talking about, I will give an excerpt from the commercial offer of the Moscow company "ROST-LEASING":

              7. Operating leasing of aircraft Boeing 757/200 PF 1989 year of manufacture;
              8. Operating leasing of aircraft Boeing 757/200 PCF 1989 year of manufacture;
              9. Operational Leasing Boeing 757/200 ER 1990 year of manufacture;
              10. Operational Leasing Boeing 757/200 ER 1995 release;

              Fine? This is the same thing that in the Russian Federation now flies on domestic routes. That is what the domestic jet will compete with. Do you seriously believe that commercial firms will consider options without considering prices? And if not, how can a new jet compete with such junk? Personally, it’s quite obvious to me that the only way is financial preferences under state guarantees to those domestic airlines that will develop domestic aviation industry. Plus, a possible ban on the use of such junk here for commercial needs. No, if you want to fly yourself - fly, you can take your directors to such directors, if it does, it’s not a question.

              Quote: evil hamster
              most of the AKs we have are completely private and characteristic of buying airliners is not at all interested in where they are built; they generally don’t care at all about the fate of the domestic aircraft industry.

              Yes, they do, as I understand it, do not care for absolutely everything. And that is why the state should take an extremely tough position, otherwise how? Otherwise, like this:

              1. evil hamster
                evil hamster 18 November 2013 21: 38
                0
                Quote: lucidlook
                So even that?
                Yes exactly.
                Quote: lucidlook
                But, for example, Boeing thinks otherwise
                No, it doesn’t.

                "Boeing estimates the civil aircraft market in Russia and the CIS at $ 140 billion."

                According to Boeing's forecast [NYSE: BA] in the next 20 years airlines 1 new aircraft will be delivered to Russia and the CIS totaling $ 140 billion

                Oga carry out magical analytical actions of 1170/20 = 59 planes per year of all classes and to all CIS countries - indeed, the market size is unimaginable.
                Quote: lucidlook
                However, if the liner’s developers have swung at the ousting of Embryer, Bombardier and Airbus (with its A318) from the world market, then I want to wish them every success. That's just - whether it turns out that, chasing the golden crane, again as a result we get a duck under the bed?
                Dear, tell me apart from the positions "we do not sell for export at all" and "to oust Embraer, Bombardier and Watermelon from the world markets" there are no intermediate positions in your worldview? It seems to me that the Sukhi set a very real task to have a part of the market, and not to defeat everyone and stand beautiful in a white cloak.
                Quote: lucidlook
                So far, most private owners are profitable to use (in one form or another) used aircraft.

                Exactly what. Well, and what claims about this to the GSS?
                Quote: lucidlook
                Fine?
                No, it’s not normal.
                Quote: lucidlook
                Do you seriously believe that commercial firms will consider options without considering prices?
                No company in the world can ignore the price - it is as if self-evident, why are you asking this?
                Quote: lucidlook
                And if not, how can a new jet compete with such junk?
                Just like everyone else New Sun represented in our market.
                1. lucidlook
                  lucidlook 19 November 2013 18: 49
                  0
                  Quote: evil hamster
                  No, it doesn’t.

                  No, he thinks. I understand that everything is cognized by comparison, and it seems to you that 59 liners a year for One Eighth of Land is dust. But if we compare, for example, with the sensational contract for the supply of liners but already for the needs of American Airlines, and in it we are talking about 250 aircraft within 5 years, then it turns out, lo and behold, even less - just some "pathetic "50 planes a year.

                  It would seem, so what? And the fact that analysts are all, as one, are extremely skeptical about the capabilities of one manufacturer to fulfill this contract.

                  Other opinions can be cited in this regard. For instance:
                  Comparing the capacity of the Russian aircraft market with the capacity of the world market, which is estimated at about 30 thousand new aircraft in twenty years, we can say that the Russian market could theoretically be 6-8% of the global market capacity. Even given that part of the demand may be satisfactory
                  Rena in the secondary market (so far 70%, although it was 85% five years ago), this is a noticeable part of the global market, which is a priority for domestic aircraft manufacturers to occupy.

                  Civil Aviation №10, 2012

                  Of course, not all 30.000 are entirely regional, but if we consider their share as a percentage, then 6-8% of the world market is not enough? And this is only the Russian Federation without the CIS! Yes, God forbid to at least take it! I have already given examples of sad alternatives. And without state subsidies, there is neither SSJ nor Tu-334 here, and no other airliner will break through, this is indisputable and there is no question of this (by the way, we must remember about the WTO). But to present the market of the Russian Federation and the CIS as negligible is somehow strange. This is to the question of "intermediate positions in your worldview." From a constructive point of view, my position is very simple - you need to start with lifting weights, otherwise you can easily overstrain, and as a result, both quality and quantity will suffer. And in the end - business reputation. Examples of this are half of the "latest developments" in the history of the Russian Federation. Alas.

                  Quote: evil hamster
                  Well, and what claims about this to the GSS?

                  There are no complaints about the GSS! You will not believe, but I have really there are no complaints about them as constructors. There are claims to the management and the media. The point is that the explanations for the uniqueness and uniqueness of the superjet are already going off scale all conceivable and inconceivable limits! The "inability" of Tupolev Design Bureau to produce liners alone is worth something! KB does not produce liners, it designs them, but produces the industry, which is led by the government. And the government tells us:
                  [...]
                  1. evil hamster
                    evil hamster 20 November 2013 00: 10
                    0
                    Quote: lucidlook
                    No, he thinks. ......
                    It would seem, so what? And the fact that analysts are all, as one, are extremely skeptical about the capabilities of one manufacturer to fulfill this contract.

                    Honestly not in the know what kind of contract, but not the point. About 1100-1200 airliners are rolled out with Bobkin and Watermelon per year (from memory, but approximately the same order of numbers). This number does not even include regionals, only medium-haul and higher. 59 boards - this is 5%, comments are unnecessary in my opinion. So of these 59 (by the way, keep in mind that 59 is the average for the hospital, but in fact it is most likely 40 now and 80 in 20 years, tobish taking into account growth) regionals make up 20-30 percent IMHO the niche is not that very wide. Consider also competitors in the form of Embraer and An148 - they will bite something from our domestic market. And what are we left with ?? 10-20 boards per year and then optimistic. This amount will not even allow to bring production to a plus (not that there are some costs to recapture, to service loans). There are generally 2 ways here, either we stupidly block import imports altogether, or we are trying to sell cars abroad, maybe some kind of interjet will turn up. The option to cover the aircraft industry, as you know, I do not consider.
                    Quote: lucidlook
                    Of course, not all 30.000 are entirely regionalists, ...... Examples of this are half of the "latest developments" in the history of the Russian Federation. Alas.

                    1. this estimate is more optimistic than Boeing :) but oh well. The problem is that it will not be possible to fully occupy these 6-8 percent. Love our AKs will take Beavers and Arbuses, they AKs are now as fastidious as the western ones and will not take any board. So, what will we have to fight for our own market, and what can we do about capitalism. Here, again, either we prohibit the import, or we make aircraft that fully satisfy the wishes of the AK - and exactly those aircraft that are initially focused on the world market. Yes, this path does not guarantee success, and state support will not be superfluous (by the way, both SSZ and An148 have it, although it would seem) The problem is that the first path does not guarantee anything either, because. it does not happen that the whole country is in the "market", and aviation is in the "state plan"
                    2. Regarding state support. There are projects that she will help, but there are those that do not. Tu334 in the form in which it now exists, will probably help only if the state gives it to him (I exaggerate of course)
                    3. I did not say that our market is negligible, read my statement carefully. It is small for the payback of serious projects, unfortunately designing today is not very cheap.
                    4. regarding lifting weights. Just the same GSS entry into the relatively narrow and calm regional market, where competitors, of course, are strong, are not monsters of the global aviation industry, but a very wise decision.
                    1. lucidlook
                      lucidlook 20 November 2013 04: 47
                      0
                      Quote: evil hamster
                      So, what will have to fight for our own market, and what can you do about capitalism.

                      Let's decide, or we believe that we have little domestic market, or that we do not shine to take it all in the foreseeable future.
                      This is a key question (see my first post).

                      I also note that in the world there has not yet been an honest capitalist (market) struggle. Or do you see the universal transition of American airlines to more economical Airbuses? Or can you give the opposite examples? Do you know how many Boeings are in Lufthansa, for example? So lobbying for a native aviation industry takes place both in the USA and in Europe. And I see no reason why this should not happen in the Russian Federation. The question is different, in meeting the needs of the market on the one hand, and in the price of the issue on the other. Companies will not wait until the plane begins to fly normally. They will return, and they themselves will be transplanted to competitors.

                      And if of the competitors - only import (and why do we need internal competition, right?), Then ...

                      Quote: evil hamster
                      Design Bureau accompanies the sides throughout their lives and is directly involved in after-sales service.

                      And the designers in the engines do not change the oil by accident? Maybe salons are vacuuming?

                      Typically, design bureaus are part of consortia, often with a state participation in one form or another. Or in your world GSS = KB Sukhoi?

                      Quote: evil hamster
                      by the way, the Italians have neither 51%, but 25, but this is so by the way.

                      You put me in a bind. Who to believe? You or the GSS?

                      The Russian Sukhoi aviation holding and the Italian company Alenia Aeronautica (part of the Finmeccanica group), within the framework of a strategic partnership agreement, announced the creation of a joint venture (JV) for sales and after-sales service of Russian medium-haul Sukhoi SuperJet-100 aircraft, according to a joint press release of the companies ...

                      The share of Sukhoi in this joint venture will be 49%, Alenia - 51%. Serial production of SuperJet-100 aircraft is scheduled for 2008.

                      http://izvestia.ru/news/406933#ixzz2l8rO8nAD


                      As for the 3 crew members, then so much rubbed about it. The Tu-204 also originally had three. For historical reasons. Customers wanted two - redid (emnip, less than a year). Everything can be done with political will. However, any project can be destroyed, if desired. And there were potential contracts, you know very well about the Iranian contract. Why are you distorting?
                      1. evil hamster
                        evil hamster 20 November 2013 16: 00
                        -1
                        Quote: lucidlook
                        Let's decide, or we believe that we have little domestic market, or that we do not shine to take it all in the foreseeable future.
                        And here there are no contradictions, not only that the total volume is not enough for normal series, but this also needs to be squeezed out of foreign competitors, whose products are so tightly hooked on our AKs. The presence of a Superjet does not guarantee that every new regional bought by a Russian AK will be a superjet! Someone will definitely buy Ejet or Bombardier. and this must be taken into account.
                        Quote: lucidlook
                        I also note that in the world there has not yet been an honest capitalist (market) struggle. Or do you see the universal transition of American airlines to more economical Airbuses? Or can you give the opposite examples? Do you know how many Boeings are in Lufthansa, for example? So lobbying for a native aviation industry takes place both in the USA and in Europe. And I see no reason why this should not happen in Russia

                        I absolutely agree, BUT - this does not mean that on this occasion, the same Boeing can drive 737-200 on the blue eye, like we have a lobby in the Senate that is what it is, so they will buy nowhere. On the contrary, Bobik expels with a dreamliner, another iteration of jumbo and 737MAX. Watermelon is the same, otherwise it is simply impossible. I am not against state support, state lobbying for my product is normal, but must be competitive; otherwise, no state support will save him.
                        Quote: lucidlook
                        Companies will not wait until the plane begins to fly normally. They will return, and they themselves will be transplanted to competitors.
                        And if of the competitors - only import (and why do we need internal competition, right?), Then ...
                        But with this I strongly disagree, 2 aircraft in one niche is stupidity bordering on sabotage. For recoupment, the SCAC needs to sell somewhere 320 boards (it is not important from memory I will not indicate the source this hour), let's say we really need another regional. State -in. gives money, we take the long-suffering 334th, we carry out a deep redesign of the project, we change the board, we carry out re-certification, we deploy production and ... at the exit, in order to recoup funds from 2 programs, we need to sell not 320, but let's say 680 boards of both types - and what is the actual benefit then ? Where will we sell so much? Will Embraer and Bombardier sit and watch us frolic? What our aviation industry really needs is a series, let it be 1 aircraft in a class but with a normal series => normal stable quality, normal profitability, normal price. This is all tied up, there is no normal product in case of piece production, if it is not a fighter with a strict military acceptance and a huge price of the product, which, however, the state is inclined to pay. But AK to pay for piece production and hemorrhagic with sides, each of which is unique and not at all inclined to repeat. Therefore, internal competition under conditions of tough pressure from a foreign manufacturer is evil, Watermelon has no internal competitors, everything went out, Bobik did the same, they did, and if we want to produce airplanes, we need to learn from experience and concentrate efforts, and not spread money to thin layer by area.
                      2. lucidlook
                        lucidlook 21 November 2013 00: 46
                        0
                        Quote: evil hamster
                        But I strongly disagree with this, 2 aircraft in one niche is stupidity bordering on wrecking.

                        I understand your idea, but I can’t share it. All the same, I believe that healthy competition in the domestic market is also useful. An example is Boeing vs Lockheed Martin. Or from the Soviet past, the Yak-42 vs Tu-134. If the corporation at the state (as a beloved daughter) is one, then it will behave accordingly.
                    2. evil hamster
                      evil hamster 20 November 2013 16: 49
                      0
                      Quote: lucidlook
                      And the designers in the engines do not change the oil by accident? Maybe salons are vacuuming?
                      Typically, design bureaus are part of consortia, often with a state participation in one form or another. Or in your world GSS = KB Sukhoi?

                      Sorry, but your irony is completely inappropriate here. Everything is exactly as I wrote. And yet, GSS is a joint subsidiary of JSC Sukhoi Company 75% -1 and Alenia Aeronautics - 25% + 1, in fact, the design bureau is involved in everything on the Superjet, from design to training of pilots and personnel. Sukhoi - for a long time already, not only KB (in the direct sense of the word), a company that designs, manufactures aircraft. In particular, KNAAZ and NAPO are branches of OJSC "Sukhoi Company"
                      Quote: lucidlook
                      You put me in a bind. Who to believe? You or the GSS?
                      Do not believe me, believe the GSS http://www.scac.ru/ru/the-company/
                      Quote: lucidlook
                      As for the 3 crew members, then so much rubbed about it. The Tu-204 also originally had three. For historical reasons. Customers wanted two - redid (emnip, less than a year). Everything can be done with political will. However, any project can be destroyed, if desired. And there were potential contracts, you know very well about the Iranian contract. Why are you distorting?

                      There is no dispute with the question "mongrel". However, the will is not enough, money and time are needed, and all this should have been already then in 2003. It seems that the IAC AR received the 204MC certificate, and what? Do you see the thirsty crowds? I’m not, but sorry 204 did not deserve such a fate. Regarding a potential contract: the fact of the matter is that it is potential, the potential superjet also has a lot of sense out of them.
                2. evil hamster
                  evil hamster 20 November 2013 00: 21
                  -1
                  Quote: lucidlook
                  There are no complaints about the SCA! Believe it or not, I really have no complaints about them as constructors. There are claims to the management and the media. The point is that the explanations for the uniqueness and uniqueness of the superjet are already going off scale all conceivable and inconceivable limits! The "inability" of Tupolev Design Bureau to produce liners alone is worth something! KB does not produce liners, it designs them, but produces the industry, which is led by the government. And the government tells us:

                  1. I don’t know, I’m probably reading what kind of media I’m reading, peering about the first flight in 2007, so I don’t remember anything right away. But then Mr. G. was poured on the project so much that my dear mother.
                  2. About KB you say some strange things. Design and production are not faulty and the design bureau participates in both of them in the most direct way, moreover, the design bureau accompanies the boards throughout their lives and directly participates in after-sales service (not a design bureau can outsource this, of course, but first you need to build the whole system, yes besides it is money, reputation and necessary conditions for the sale of cars)
              2. lucidlook
                lucidlook 19 November 2013 18: 49
                0
                [...]

                According to official statements of the Ministry of Transport of the Russian Federation, the demand of the Russian market in the Tu-334 until 2010 is estimated at about 80 vehicles.

                And then it makes sense to fence the garden because of 80 cars? No, of course not. That's just about SSJ for some reason this is not said. Why? Any ideas?

                IMHO, of course, but the main trouble of the Tu-334 is that it just doesn’t have that many imported parts, with each transaction for which it would be dripped to customs. And 51% of the shares did not flow to the Italians. To offend a friend, Silvio, of course, is impossible.

                But in fact it turns out that the Tu-334 is not needed (you must admit, 80 cars is ridiculous), and the SSJ is one continuous necessity. Now let's think about it, if the state intentionally destroys competition in the vastness of its own country, then who benefits from this? Well, certainly not commercial companies.

                Quote: evil hamster
                No company in the world can ignore the price - it is as if self-evident, why are you asking this?

                Then, according to the latest data, one SSJ-100 costs $ 35 million. And one Tu-334 costs $ 20 million. Questions?
                1. evil hamster
                  evil hamster 20 November 2013 01: 02
                  -1
                  Quote: lucidlook
                  And then it makes sense to fence the garden because of 80 cars? No, of course not. That's just about SSJ for some reason this is not said. Why? Any ideas?
                  This is not for me - this is for the Ministry of Transport, they need 80 Tu334 so let them answer.
                  Quote: lucidlook
                  IMHO, of course, but the main trouble of the Tu-334 is that it just doesn’t have that many imported parts, with each transaction for which it would be dripped to customs. And 51% of the shares did not flow to the Italians. To offend a friend, Silvio, of course, is impossible.

                  His main problem is that it was designed in the USSR, unified by a barrel with the Tu204, has a board of the level of the beginning of the 90s, a 3-member crew, a cut certificate of the IAC AR and, in connection with all of the above, AK is not interesting from the word at all.
                  by the way, the Italians have neither 51%, but 25, but this is so by the way. laughing
                  Quote: lucidlook
                  But in fact it turns out that the Tu-334 is not needed (you must admit, 80 cars is ridiculous), and the SSJ is one continuous necessity. Now let's think about it, if the state intentionally destroys competition in the vastness of its own country, then who benefits from this? Well, certainly not commercial companies.

                  What is the competition? How can firms within a single corporation compete? You competitors from Embraer and Bombardier, the Chinese and the Japanese are few? do you still need What kind of competition are we talking about when there are no orders on the Tu334?
                  Quote: lucidlook
                  Then, according to the latest data, one SSJ-100 costs $ 35 million. And one Tu-334 costs $ 20 million. Questions?

                  Answers: 35 ML - the catalog price of a mass-produced aircraft with all certificates. 20 ML - a virtual, unconfirmed figure, of an aircraft for which there is not a single order, and the production of which has not yet been deployed (there is no mass production and equipment physically)
            3. evil hamster
              evil hamster 18 November 2013 21: 39
              0
              Quote: lucidlook
              Personally, it is obvious to me that the only way is financial preferences under state guarantees to those domestic airlines that will develop the domestic aviation industry.
              Great, I am also for all the good, against all the bad. What's the question? Create a party, go to the Duma and then to the presidency and make life a fairy tale. But while you are still in the process, briefly, what claims to the GSS are again in connection with your thought above? What did they do wrong in this difficult situation?
              Quote: lucidlook
              Plus, a possible ban on the use of such junk here for commercial needs. No, if you want to fly yourself - fly, you can take your directors to such directors, if it does, it’s not a question.
              It would be nice of course, but there are a lot of pitfalls, however, this is off topic in this case. Strictly speaking, it was impossible to allow their import in 1996. But then it was heavily lobbied and at the helm there was a drunk degenerate.
              Quote: lucidlook
              Yes, they do, as I understand it, do not care for absolutely everything. And that is why the state should take an extremely tough position, otherwise how? Otherwise, like this:

              I fundamentally agree with Swami, but again, BUT it’s hard to take a tough position when only the Superjet is mass-produced and even the series is only being developed ...
        5. dmitreach
          dmitreach 2 December 2013 20: 30
          0
          Strongly disagree. If today some airports of Eurozone are closed for domestic aircraft, by those parameters, then tomorrow we will not fly to Kaliningrad without importing. (flew in August on the Tu 204)
    2. Akim
      Akim 16 November 2013 12: 06
      0
      Quote: Lyapis
      Is Poghosyan to blame again? You probably personally saw how "almost finished Tu-334" is sacrificed to him?
      And why did the Superjet become “an underplane?” You probably think that it does not fly as well as the “almost finished Tu-334”?


      Boguslaev (Motor Sich) a couple of years ago wanted to buy technical documentation and all the rights to manufacture the Tu-334. Apparently he would have been cheaper than his classmates S / J and An-158.
      1. evil hamster
        evil hamster 16 November 2013 12: 19
        +7
        No offense will be said, but it's all pi ... well and peer, nothing more. Boguslaev generally likes to talk to the public. He stupidly does not have so much money to start production, I'm not talking about the fact that he will not be able to sell 334 to anyone, and I am sure he understands this perfectly.
        1. Akim
          Akim 16 November 2013 13: 22
          +1
          Quote: evil hamster
          Boguslaev generally likes to talk to the public. He stupidly does not have so much money to start production, I'm not talking about the fact that he will not be able to sell 334 to anyone, and I am sure he understands this perfectly.

          And what's the point?
          1. evil hamster
            evil hamster 16 November 2013 16: 16
            +3
            How do I know. The fact is that Boguslaev appeared in the company of a certain clown fund "people's plane" - why does he need this? Well, what if it burns out, I think this is the logic.
    3. timer
      timer 16 November 2013 22: 09
      +1
      Yes, Poghosyan is to blame. He actively lobbied his project. And he didn’t have to goof off at the expense of personally saw, didn’t see. Huge resources were thrown into the wind, but what's the point? For this, during the time of Stalin, Pogosyan would be shot.
      There is such a popular proverb — every cricket know your own hearth. I also write that Sukhoi never engaged in civilian aircraft construction, only in the military. Therefore, the superjet project was initially doomed, because there are no personnel, bases and experience in the construction of civilian aircraft. It’s known who supported it! RAPPING HOOPUAGES! How the smell of another cut-off rats came to life! The main manufacturers of civilian aircraft in the USSR were Tupolev and Ilyushin. I won’t be able to judge the Tu-334 project I know. Everyone should do what he knows how to do perfectly! In the USSR aviation industry it was. Therefore, the planes were excellent!
      1. Lyapis
        Lyapis 17 November 2013 06: 35
        +4
        Is Poghosyan guilty of promoting his own design bureau, rather than competing? Or is it that his planes go in series and meet all modern requirements? You are talking about huge resources thrown into the wind, but all this applies only to the Tu-334, and not to the Superjet at all (if you are still not tasteful, the SSJ is mass-produced and has many commercial contracts. Is this also probably Pogosyan’s fault?) About the place of the company Sukhoi in the grown and completely ridiculous. If, as you say, the purely military design bureau created a decent civilian aircraft, but the design bureaus of Tupolev and Ilyushin did not, then it would be worthwhile to think about the execution last, and not as Poghosyan!
        There is nothing to say about the doom of the project, because it is more alive than all living things.
      2. orizonti
        orizonti 17 November 2013 14: 50
        +3
        Surely the plane bought in the world and operating plants, the project is only at the beginning of the way and there is no question of any failure if everything goes well in the Interjet.
  2. ybrcfy27
    ybrcfy27 16 November 2013 09: 40
    -14 qualifying.
    Poghosyan and Putin are to blame
  3. cherkas.oe
    cherkas.oe 16 November 2013 13: 03
    +2
    Quote: Backfire
    It's funny that the president’s affairs are being bought by the Tu-334

    Nuuu ..- this is wonderful, but can you please clarify; -from the information.
  4. rumpeljschtizhen
    rumpeljschtizhen 16 November 2013 13: 51
    0
    Tu 334 is not in serial production of such an aircraft
  5. Cherdak
    Cherdak 16 November 2013 21: 47
    +5
    Dates of the first flights for 2012:
    01. 95013 16.01.12/04/95017 __ 29.04.12. 07 95019/13.08.12/10 __ 95020. 25.11.12 XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX __ XNUMX. XNUMX XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX
    02. 95016 02.03.12/05/95021 __ 03.06.12. 08 95023/12.09.12/11 __ 95026. 12.12.12 XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX __ XNUMX. XNUMX XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX
    03. 95014 04.04.12/06/95018 __ 12.07.12. 09 95022/20.10.12/12 __ 95024. 16.12.12 XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX __ XNUMX. XNUMX XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX
    Dates of the first flights for 2013:
    01 95032 __ 12.02.13 07 __ 95036. 20.06.13 13/95037/26.09.13
    02 95025 __ 22.02.13 08 __ 95009. 29.06.13 14/95038/06.10.13
    03 95028 __ 24.03.13 09 __ 95029. 02.07.13 15/95039/18.10.13
    04 95027 __ 27.04.13 10 __ 95033. 09.08.13 16/95040/02.11.13
    05 95030 __ 20.05.13 11 __ 95034. 28.08.13 17/95042/12.11.13
    06 95031/03.06.13/12 __ 95035. 15.09.13 XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX

    And the Sukhoi Superjet 100 just smiles and the release continues to grow
    1. Fin
      Fin 16 November 2013 22: 46
      -2
      Quote: Cherdak
      And the Sukhoi Superjet 100 just smiles and the release continues to grow

      Rejoice early, read the article again
      Yes, even if the GSS will succeed in establishing a truly mass production, the number of aircraft produced by itself is not an indicator of project success and a guarantee of profitability.

      And there, after a good example, about a Japanese aircraft, of which 180 were produced, and what ....
      They didn’t take up their business.
      1. orizonti
        orizonti 17 November 2013 14: 56
        +2
        The pride of the Tu-204 polymer workers from the truly Orthodox Tupolev design bureau was produced in 23 years in the amount of 75 pieces, and the owners constantly cry because the design bureau spits on after-sales service, of course, in the whole developed world, no one will look towards such an aircraft, the same thing it would be with the Tu-334, the same thing is with the An-148.
        So who really didn’t take up his job, this is another question.
        1. Fin
          Fin 17 November 2013 20: 47
          0
          Quote: orizonti
          The pride of the Tu-204 polymer workers from the truly Orthodox Tupolev design bureau was produced in 23 years in the amount of 75 pieces, and the owners constantly cry because the design bureau spits on after-sales service, of course, in the whole developed world, no one will look towards such an aircraft, the same thing it would be with the Tu-334, the same thing is with the An-148.
          So who really didn’t take up his job, this is another question.

          For the money that was invested in SSJ, there would already be a service and a new Tu-based aircraft. 75 pieces are without state. infusions, and for your !!! Do you feel the difference?
          1. clidon
            clidon 17 November 2013 22: 57
            +2
            To date, out of 50 Tu-204s produced, a dozen and a half have been produced either for the Tupolev Design Bureau (at government expense) or were purchased for government agencies (SLO Rossiya). This is not government support?
        2. lucidlook
          lucidlook 18 November 2013 03: 59
          -1
          Quote: orizonti
          KB spits on after-sales service,

          Excuse me, but should the design bureau (design bureau) be engaged in after-sales service? Maybe a manufacturer after all? No? And if he is, then where is the guarantee that the aforementioned manufacturer will treat his other products (whatever they are called) differently? Is it that they are allergic to the letters "Tu"? But they don't have it on Su? wink
  6. Cherdak
    Cherdak 16 November 2013 21: 52
    +1
    Quote: Backfire
    It's funny that the presidential administration buys exactly the Tu-334 and not the Superjets, why would that be?



    November 24, 2010. The Presidential Administration of Russia announced an open tender for the creation and supply of one Tu-214 aircraft laughing

    And do not confuse them! This is how to invite the President to switch from a representative car to a small car good
    1. clidon
      clidon 16 November 2013 21: 58
      0
      Head of business was going to buy Tu-334, but as a result refused this venture. And for quite some time now.
  7. Yars
    Yars 17 November 2013 20: 12
    +1
    where did you get that xNUMX tu was sacrificed to Pogosyan? Are you another troll who was ordered here to shit? GO HOME BACKFIRE
  8. 3HATOK
    3HATOK 18 November 2013 10: 28
    0
    Quote: Backfire
    Yeah, almost finished Tu-334 was sacrificed to Poghosyan and his intrigues. As a result, a lot of money was thrown in, and at the exit "an underplane". It's funny that the presidential administration buys exactly the Tu-334 and not the Superjets, why would that be?


    Top officials and other officials fly mainly on IL-96 and -86 !!!! (accompanied the visits, I know)
    Superjet a great plane (flew 2 weeks ago), the same 737 for comfort, but quiet as in a car (very quiet !!!) Designers - well done !!!!!
  • PLO
    PLO 16 November 2013 09: 18
    +9
    today on topvar day of adequate and interesting articles winked
  • DNX1970
    DNX1970 16 November 2013 09: 47
    +3
    creating is not always easy, experience is very necessary and important ....
    1. Krilion
      Krilion 16 November 2013 10: 42
      +5
      Quote: DNX1970
      creating is not always easy, experience is very necessary and important ....



      and where did all our experience go? ...
      1. clidon
        clidon 16 November 2013 17: 46
        +1
        He did not go anywhere. What we knew how to do well, then we do as before. Helicopters disperse like hot cakes. Fighters also do not lie down ...
        1. Krilion
          Krilion 17 November 2013 07: 07
          +4
          Quote: clidon
          He did not go anywhere. What we knew how to do well, then we do as before. Helicopters disperse like hot cakes. Fighters also do not lie down ...



          and now compare the market for civilian aircraft and the market for military aircraft ... the military market is very narrow and small .. not every buyer can be sold and not everyone will buy a lot .. civilian aircraft buy EVERYTHING and a lot ... so we eat crumbs ...
          1. clidon
            clidon 17 November 2013 09: 34
            0
            I have no doubt that the market for civilian cars is thicker and tastier, but we have gained a foothold in the military with what was really competitive and interesting. You must fight for the civil ...
  • mvg
    mvg 16 November 2013 09: 57
    +2
    article is normal, only I do not see the markets. Neither Canadians nor Brazilians will give America either one or the other, we won’t build a service center there, Asians .. here the Chinese will end up horned, especially since their regional manager is at least as good and cheaper as buying by himself. Well, we don’t have services all over the world, carcasses and silts have not flown for a long time ... all the more this is the first sign with an incomprehensible operation. where the author took 100 orders, a little different figures spoke on max
    1. Krilion
      Krilion 16 November 2013 10: 35
      +6
      Quote: mvg
      I do not see markets. Neither Canadians nor Brazilians will give America either one or the other, we won’t build a service center there, Asians .. here the Chinese will end up horned, especially since their regional manager is at least as good and cheaper as buying by himself. Well, we don’t have services all over the world, for a long time carcasses and silts no longer fly ..



      well, they’ve ruined everything with their own hands ... so now advise us to do something: wrap yourself in a sheet and crawl into the cemetery? .. Yes, we have a huge domestic market. due to it alone, you can raise the industry ...
    2. bolonenkov
      bolonenkov 16 November 2013 10: 59
      +3
      Quote: mvg
      where the author took 100 orders, a little different figures spoke on max

      The author is right, 100 firm orders, you can check on Wikidot
    3. tegezen
      tegezen 16 November 2013 13: 12
      +2
      http://www.sdelanounas.ru/blogs/42828/ Мексиканцы очень довольны самолетом.
    4. orizonti
      orizonti 17 November 2013 14: 59
      0
      They are also building a service center there and are promoting it to China.
  • Krilion
    Krilion 16 November 2013 10: 30
    +4
    The issue with the superjet is so old and so frayed that there is no point in starting to discuss the topic anew, because those who make decisions on this issue are either thoroughly corrupt or complete boobies. And the whole point is that the main profit in the civil aircraft market comes from the sale of long-haul large-body vessels. So Pogosyana also literally divorced him, stimulating him to produce superjets, the exhaust from which is still zero point ten and the prospects for improvement are very doubtful, and the scale of production is simply ridiculous. The Americans, meanwhile, continue to share the large and sweet pie of large aircraft.
    1. ssergn
      ssergn 17 November 2013 09: 09
      +3
      And you try to sell a long-haul car. Who are the main suppliers, essentially the monopolists? Airbus and Boeing, are there any chances? Do you have any questions now? Who is Sukhoi for them, as well as for buyers? Sukhoi really needs to develop an image, make brand recognition. Otherwise, even if they make a super duper race a wonderful plane, they WILL NOT take it. These are the laws of the market. On the domestic side, it is possible to somehow "stimulate" air carriers, and even then it is not a fact that everyone will rush to take it. Everybody counts money.
      After all, no one will argue that civilian aircraft are sold under slightly different laws than military ones. Therefore, when promoting such products, you need to dance from the stove (market). Not only capacity is important, but also OPPORTUNITY AND CONDITIONS OF ENTRY into the market.
      Conclusion - in order to share the cake, we must at least reach it. wink
  • Asan Ata
    Asan Ata 16 November 2013 10: 36
    +4
    I do not understand. Why is there such a situation after the gigantic production of civilian TU, IL and AN? Well, without certification, nowhere, but the industry is not new?
    1. svp67
      svp67 16 November 2013 12: 15
      +5
      Quote: Asan Ata
      Well, without certification, nowhere, but the industry is not new?
      Too many "effective" managers ...
    2. tegezen
      tegezen 16 November 2013 12: 46
      +9
      Everything has changed. It’s impossible to produce competitive liners in the good old Soviet way. First of all, at cost. On the Superjet, a modern scheme has been tested in which Boeing and Airbuses are produced. This has already been said a hundred times, end-to-end digital design - from the designer’s computer directly to the machining center, new machines - machining centers, organization of production, use nodes from world leaders in aircraft components, rather than puffing up to do everything ourselves, and much more. It turns out that almost anew we have to create production. Over the 90s they lagged behind seriously.
  • Krilion
    Krilion 16 November 2013 10: 41
    +8
    Quote: Asan Ata
    I do not understand. Why is there such a situation after the gigantic production of civilian TU, IL and AN? Well, without certification, nowhere, but the industry is not new?



    This misfortune is rooted in the era of privatization and effective managers. Under normal government and a sane president, ostronomical means wereted to lay various kinds of pipelines for pumping raw materials, and various kinds of ostentatious epic buildings, this money would be invested in the restoration of the aircraft industry. And due to the income from sales of products, it would be possible to build the same PR objects several times more.
    1. tegezen
      tegezen 16 November 2013 13: 09
      +4
      Money doesn’t solve everything. If you want, for example, Saudi Arabia to create an aircraft industry, nothing will come of it, even if it goes to sleep with gold. To give money for some kind of project, you need to have someone to give someone, first a structure is created that can fulfill the task, then money flows into it. At that time, Poghosyan had a capable structure, and there was a plane, and an understanding of what he was doing. They invested in it. Well, it wasn’t to invest in the Saratov plant, the kingdom of heaven to him, there was already no one to give money to.
  • samoletil18
    samoletil18 16 November 2013 11: 34
    +1
    About 3 years ago, the GSS tried to pair SaM-146 to Ukrainians on the An-148, instead of Zaporizhzhya engines. It seems not to have grown together. Voronezh produces the An-148, which creates additional competition for the GSS in the domestic market. I don’t know, of course, a lot on this topic, but sometimes the foggy SSJ-100 prospects slip in the media regarding the payback of the project due, first of all, to reputation (disaster in Indonesia, return from Armenia, other smaller problems), and competitors are on the alert .

    P.S. To the author +. If I sat down for such an article, I’m afraid the size would be scary, but here it’s very clear and concise, GOOD FELLOW!
    1. donavi49
      donavi49 16 November 2013 12: 39
      +5
      Ukrainians now switched to design. The only commercial customer (MO, MES and SLO is to support VASO pants) Ilyushin-Finance, who leases planes.

      Moreover, all An-148 in Ukraine sold back, they no longer fly on commercial lines, because leased air buses are more profitable. Now they want to repair and give to Chlenovozy (type SLO). But for money questions.

      As for the disaster in Indonesia, the verdict was voiced, moreover, there were no refusals from the company. And yes, planes are falling. Moreover, the Boeing 787 has been burning for many years due to battery defects, and not so long ago it burned to zero in Heathrow, well, at least on the ground. So what? This is a technical problem, however, 787 Boeings are manufactured and successfully sold, despite such a threatening defect.
      1. vtur
        vtur 16 November 2013 19: 48
        +1
        Quote: donavi49
        however, Boeings 787 produce and successfully sell

        Airbus with the A-350 was able to break into the Japanese market, where Boeing hosted for decades precisely because of the stubbornness of the latter in solving the problem with Li-ion batteries ...
  • evil hamster
    evil hamster 16 November 2013 12: 07
    +4
    I applaud while standing, the sane article about surge - it's just something with something, you need to believe the Moscow zoo - if the elephant has died !!!
  • castle
    castle 16 November 2013 12: 17
    +1
    And heads, like, in Russia there are also skillful hands. It’s just not clear (maybe it’s clear, and some know) who is buying and selling, and where is he getting the prize for and in whose pocket he is putting it. And then there is the MS-21 on the way to the scaffold!
  • Evgeniy46
    Evgeniy46 16 November 2013 12: 17
    +7
    Good day to all, have not come hi The theme with SSJ-100 and Tu-334 has long been sore. In short: Tu-334, created at the beginning of the 90s, is very outdated by the 00s. Yes, domestic. Yes, almost entirely from our details. But over 10 years old. KB Tupolev did not even introduce him to the RRJ contest. As a result, the Sukhov project won, which was slow and difficult. At the end of the year, the 40th serial should take off. Few. But for the post-Soviet civil aircraft industry this is a record.
    PS MS-21 is no more. Now called Yak-242
    1. donavi49
      donavi49 16 November 2013 12: 34
      +7
      According to SSJ - this year they raised 17 aircraft, while the total level of aircraft to be lifted over the year in Russia went to the 94 year!

      They buy SSJs, but there you can find fault with the conditions, but this is generally a global practice. Airbuses and Boeings are also sold on loans with good discounts.

      SSJ flies to South America - by the end of this year should make the first commercial flight to the United States.
      1. Fin
        Fin 16 November 2013 13: 56
        +3
        I would like to ask a couple of questions to specialists. Why create a civilian aircraft and production from "0" if there are three design bureaus, production facilities and vast experience of Yak, Tu and Il? Why couldn't this money be used to modernize (including production) existing samples (develop new ones) on the existing base?
        IMHO. It would be better to go about their business - Dryers built, and then 2 a month. And the Superjet is a project for cutting dough, the maximum will be self-sustaining, loans will be repaid from the budget. Well planned and implemented operation. Respect performers.
        1. Botanologist
          Botanologist 16 November 2013 22: 49
          +1
          Quote: Fin
          there are three design bureaus, production facilities and vast experience in Yak, Tu and Il


          Tupolev Design Bureau was not able to develop documentation for the modernization of the Tu-22. So most likely, unfortunately, we won’t see anything worthwhile from there. Il is very busy with the reincarnation of 476. Which, in principle, is not bad. Yak is busy on the very tonsils MS-21, aka Yak-242. I hope that the Yakovlevites will bring the project to mind, a pretty good car.
          1. Fin
            Fin 16 November 2013 23: 45
            0
            I meant at that moment when the decision on the Superjet was made.
        2. ssergn
          ssergn 17 November 2013 09: 22
          +1
          I'll tell you the news now, but any Invest project is a "cut" of the dough. It is important to cut correctly, that is, to allocate resources.
          1. Fin
            Fin 17 November 2013 12: 55
            +1
            Quote: ssergn
            I'll tell you the news now, but any Invest project is a "cut" of the dough.

            Your news is outdated and has been discussed for a long time. Read my post a little higher.
        3. evil hamster
          evil hamster 17 November 2013 14: 14
          +1
          Quote: Fin
          Why create a civilian aircraft with "0" and production if you have three design bureaus
          In the article, everything is normally written, the Superjet is an initiative of the dry ones, they raised their ass, found partners, allocated their money, got loans, started designing and only then they won the competition. And there was no UAC then, every company spun as it could, and Sukhovtsi, thanks to export, was much more alive than the rest. As a rule, a team designs airplanes - neither a sign with a big name, nor an archive full of past achievements - can not do this.
          Quote: Fin
          Why this money could not be directed to the modernization (including production) of existing samples (development of new ones) on the existing base?

          Who should have done this? At the beginning of the 90s, all KB equally got into the "market" who survived we know. It is clear what time was then, but the fact remains that some survived, others practically curtailed their activities.
          Quote: Fin
          IMHO. It would be better to go about their business - Dryers built
          They are building them anyway, if half of the military export is Su-branded airplanes, and the fact that they are trying to diversify their business is just an indication that they thought about the future (it was 2000) and were planning to build planes further.
          Quote: Fin
          And the Superjet is a dough cut project,
          og - only this year, and for the coming years, it was this drink that would give the lion's share of the civilian liners produced in Russia.
          1. lucidlook
            lucidlook 18 November 2013 04: 35
            0
            Quote: evil hamster
            Superjet is an initiative of the dry ones, they raised their ass, found partners, allocated their money, got loans, started designing and only then they won the competition. And there was no UAC then, every company spun as it could, and Sukhovtsi, thanks to export, was much more alive than the rest.

            Is that even so? .. Interesting. And how do you comment then this:

            The main prospects for promoting the domestic market of civil aviation equipment during the Program are related to the deployment of sales of regional aircraft, of which the main project is RRJ (SSJ-100

            ("Development of civil aviation technology in Russia for 2002-2010 and for the period up to 2015", page 8, paragraph 3)
            1. evil hamster
              evil hamster 18 November 2013 11: 04
              0
              Che here to comment? In 2004, Surzh won the corresponding competition and received state support. Which does not replace what I said - the machine was already in operation, the Italians had already been signed into the project, the credits had been taken, work had begun on the preparation of production at KNAAPO.
              1. lucidlook
                lucidlook 18 November 2013 15: 14
                0
                Quote: evil hamster
                In 2004, Surge won

                Please compare two numbers: 2002 and 2004
                There, one still needs to take into account the adjustment for the time spent on drafting the provisions of the state program (I think, about a year or so). Those. if it is worth considering the actual state of affairs, then you need to look at what RRJ was like back in 2001.

                Considering that the start of development was announced in 2000, and Boeing signed in December 2002, I modestly believe that in 2001-2002 RRJ existed only in the fantasies of developers. It was under these fantasies that the state gave money.
                1. evil hamster
                  evil hamster 18 November 2013 22: 14
                  -1
                  1. Then the documents were picked up and looked and an interesting picture was revealed:
                  The main prospects for promoting civilian aircraft to the domestic market during the Program are related to the deployment of sales of regional aircraft, of which the main project is the RRJ (SSJ-100), as well as sales of medium-range Tu-204CM aircraft. The volume of deliveries to the domestic market of two modifications of the RRJ (SSJ-100) aircraft under the Program was estimated at 100 - 150 aircraft. Along with RRJ (SSJ-100) aircraft, regional An-148 and Tu-334 aircraft will be delivered to the domestic market.
                  (in the edition of the Government of the Russian Federation from 07.05.2008 N 364)
                  The same quote as yours, only completely, though wonderful, the letters seem to be the same, but the meaning has changed. I hope you didn’t specially miss the highlighted ???
                  I'm really wrong, too, the contest was not in 4, but in 3 years.
                  Quote: lucidlook
                  Considering that the start of development was announced in 2000, and Boeing signed in December 2002, I modestly believe that in 2001-2002 RRJ existed only in the fantasies of developers.

                  Oga - designing is such a stage, but not in fantasies, mainly on paper and in digital (in this case)
                  1. lucidlook
                    lucidlook 19 November 2013 00: 01
                    0
                    That's right, that's right.

                    Quote: evil hamster
                    of which the main is the RRJ project (SSJ-100)

                    Was it the main component of the Russian aviation industry? It is so? And then what? Questions? No? I have. Here to this:

                    Quote: evil hamster
                    Along with RRJ (SSJ-100) aircraft, regional An-148 and Tu-334 aircraft will be delivered to the domestic market.

                    Here to this "as well as". Well, how many Tu-334 have been delivered to us as well as SSJ-100? I did not want to ask these questions, but you asked for it. Well, so I listen to the answer. In the meantime, I’ll tell you that financing for the Tu-334 will begin in 2014, and this is the best case scenario, since the economy is already skidding, programs are being phased out, and may be completely canceled next year.

                    Maybe my memory fails me, but as far as I remember, they designed and redesigned it until 2006.
                    1. evil hamster
                      evil hamster 19 November 2013 11: 01
                      0
                      Yeah, that is, your statement that the SSJ was the main priority of the aircraft industry in the program as early as 2001, and that on the basis of this it was financed even before the victory in the competition, is it not on the agenda anymore?
                      Quote: lucidlook
                      To this very "along with". Well, how many Tu-334s have been delivered along with SSJ-100s?
                      You use the search engine, he will answer you for sure.
                      Quote: lucidlook
                      I did not want to ask these questions, but you asked for it.
                      If they didn’t want, they wouldn’t ask.
                      Quote: lucidlook
                      Well, so I listen to the answer. In the meantime, you think

                      You slow down a little, if anything, I owe you nothing.
                      Quote: lucidlook
                      I’ll tell you that financing of the Tu-334 will begin in 2014 and this is - at best
                      No, it will not start, producing a plane that does not even have ghostly prospects for sales is insanity, but there are no insane people in the UAC. Moreover, this program was financed at one time, the result is known to everyone.
                      Quote: lucidlook
                      since the economy is already stalled, programs are being phased out, and may be completely canceled next year.
                      There is no program for Tu334, nothing to cancel, so phantom pains.
  • WIN969
    WIN969 16 November 2013 13: 00
    +5
    All the same, the superjet is an advertisement, and then more ambitious projects will go.

  • Forget
    Forget 16 November 2013 13: 06
    +4
    There is a wonderful Tu 204 SM aircraft .. Stamp it with dozens, earn money and prepare a bridgehead for МС21
    1. donavi49
      donavi49 16 November 2013 13: 20
      +7
      He does not have certification, in Europe / USA and other countries they will not let in - sales are immediately closed.

      Service only at two enterprises with a half-year record - even the most patriotic and stubborn buyers will pass by.

      When all this works out (the same Certification of the year 2-3 minimum) - MC21 will be in the series.
      1. Fin
        Fin 16 November 2013 18: 18
        0
        Quote: donavi49
        He does not have certification, in Europe / USA and other countries they will not let in - sales are immediately closed.

        And what prevented it from certifying, more than 10 years have passed.
      2. Forget
        Forget 17 November 2013 11: 20
        +1
        Quote: donavi49
        He has no certification,

        as it is, the Interstate Aviation Committee (IAC) has completed the certification of the Tu-204SM aircraft with the PS90A2 engine.

        Supplement to the Type Certificate was issued under No. CT233-Tu-204-120CE / D10 dated May 31.05.2013, XNUMX. "
  • Diviz
    Diviz 16 November 2013 13: 40
    +2
    By plane, the Russian population flies 10 or maybe 100 times less. The country is large and it’s impossible to fly only for business or other charter flights, our aviation is intended. So there’s nothing to talk about. We sit at home house 2 look.
  • projdoha
    projdoha 16 November 2013 13: 52
    +2
    you need to develop wide-body aircraft, transport, or even a wing aircraft, even if the speed is less, but the payload is greater.
    But this requires resources from both production and smart heads.
  • rudolff
    rudolff 16 November 2013 15: 13
    +4
    Maybe some kind of optical illusion, but when I see a Superjet, it always seems that its wing is "smallish" in area for such a fuselage. In my mind I want to draw a couple of meters for him. good
  • scientist
    scientist 16 November 2013 15: 29
    +2
    World practice shows that the state is successfully working out new technologies on military orders. Strict military acceptance standards work no worse than international ICAO types. In addition, if new technologies are developed for civilian aircraft, they will automatically fall into its cost and make it super expensive.
    Obviously, Sukhoi Corporation is ahead of the Tupolev team, who are just about to design a new generation of strategic bombers, in terms of technologies for a new generation of aircraft developed at the PAK FA and SSJ.
  • Associate Professor
    Associate Professor 16 November 2013 15: 57
    0
    Rename the site at the time. There is politics, and civilian technology, and anything else.
  • ochakow703
    ochakow703 16 November 2013 16: 06
    +4
    Quote: Asan Ata
    Well, without certification, nowhere, but the industry is not new?
    And who is left in the industry? Grandfathers are pensioners, but young people are not shelled. They dispersed everyone ... Intelligent specialists are now building planes in Europe and America. Anyway, what for us planes? Deer is better!
  • castle
    castle 16 November 2013 16: 23
    +3
    The guys who understand this, earlier in the CMEA countries that manufactured and sold aircraft, there were problems with the service after the sale of aircraft, in countries geographically distant from the USSR or CMEA. We decided this so that everywhere, where we sold our acrobats, there was someone (company) nearby who knew how to repair or refit both motors and avionics. Later, when we started to put Lycoming motors on our export machines (we used to install only Walter motors, a Czech company, which has been operating since 1911), we saved the money of our customers and we allowed them to buy more of our goods. Lycoming has a lot of its service enterprises all over the world and then you don’t have to drag the plane from South Africa, for example, to the Czech Republic for trivial repairs. This, then, is expensive. What am I doing. We must not only be able to create an airplane, we must be able to sell it with the whole service package. Again, saving on investments will be more expensive for yourself.
    1. vtur
      vtur 16 November 2013 20: 14
      +3
      This is when the overhaul of the glider s does not need to be done. Or when the airplane can be packed in a container and sent to the repair plant by sea. lol
      And all Soviet planes, according to the regulations, had to undergo repairs - that’s why they flew every X thousand hours or Y years to repair plants. And in the west, such a concept as overhaul, in principle, does not exist - there the large airlines do the whole maintenance program themselves (having the appropriate certificate), and the small airlines do it from C-Check and higher in certified organizations. The first (and last) in the USSR s-t, which they tried to make under a similar system - the Yak-42. A good and promising aircraft that just had no luck ...
  • sss5.papu
    sss5.papu 16 November 2013 17: 22
    -1
    Even the full-scale launch of the ssj series is not an indicator of the success of the Russian aviation industry. in SSJ, in principle, in addition to metal, everything is imported. Only at the launch of the MS-21 can we say that Rosaviaprom is alive, although the MS-21 will be 50% of imported parts
  • aud13
    aud13 16 November 2013 21: 50
    +1
    A good idea sounded at the very end of the article that when designing the MS-21 it was necessary to use the experience and developments acquired during the construction of SSJ.
    I wonder why they didn’t think about it before.
    It seems that the solution was on the surface .....
    1. evil hamster
      evil hamster 17 November 2013 14: 18
      +1
      Because MC21 is the brainchild of Irkut and the former head of the UAC Fedorov, but I think in terms of testing and certification, experience will certainly be taken into account.
  • Diviz
    Diviz 16 November 2013 22: 08
    +1
    Quote: hrad
    And heads, like, in Russia there are also skillful hands. It’s just not clear (maybe it’s clear, and some know) who is buying and selling, and where is he getting the prize for and in whose pocket he is putting it. And then there is the MS-21 on the way to the scaffold!

    Do you know that a Boeing buys metals to build its planes - guess who is designing planes for them - guess
    You who. And if you add Sikorsky helicopters and an engine dvd180. Anger takes.
  • Stinger
    Stinger 16 November 2013 23: 35
    +8
    The article, I think, is objective, and the criticism of commentators, especially regarding the search for the perpetrators, is not very good. In my opinion, strict judges - commentators should consider that it was impossible to launch a series of completed Tu-214, Tu-334 (and there were attempts) in that situation for two reasons. The cooperation of the participating enterprises was almost completely destroyed and, most importantly, there were no customers. Having crushed Aeroflot, the largest airline in the world, and liquidated MGAs, civilian aviation lost overnight both development customers and customers of the series, and subsequently industry institutes developing new aviation materials and avionics. If military aviation survived due to exports (factories) and the Ministry of Defense’s ability to support research institutes and design bureaus, then civil aviation had no chance. Now about the "schemer" M.A. Pogosyan. At that time, when other chief designers wrote letters to all authorities, in the hope that they would “change their minds” at the top, he made tremendous efforts, first to keep his company up to date, and then to unite the aircraft manufacturers into a corporation. By the way, the aircraft factory in Komsomolsk has already begun to disassemble for scrap and drive scrap to China. So, if not for his "intrigue", then we would instead of Sukhoi get Chinese irons from this metal. And the second one. No one, except him, decided in the described initial conditions to take up the development of a civilian aircraft from scratch. Therefore, I completely share the conclusions of the author of the article made in the last paragraph.
  • Nayhas
    Nayhas 16 November 2013 23: 52
    +4
    Considering the situation of SSJ and Tu-334, I get only this association:
    -There is a stove, let's dance from it?
    -What for? Let's make another stove and dance from it!
    -But it's more expensive!
    -But the mason is different!
    1. clidon
      clidon 17 November 2013 09: 40
      +2
      - Let's put new windows
      “So we already have our dear wooden ones.” Cheap, painted, tested over the years. And a team of retired installers is already waiting. By the way, for a long time without money.
      - We want euro windows! Have to invite other workers.
      - Well, you and scum, relatives did not please you. Eurowindows are worse, they are with imported elements. And where is there to apply domestic putty? That is, you and leave the workmen without work ?!
  • karavay1982
    karavay1982 17 November 2013 00: 59
    +2
    How many discussed the creation of SuperJet. And again.
    At the level of the Government of the Russian Federation, they recognized that the project was unprofitable, but, as always, they began to remain silent.
    In order to recoup government investments, you need to sell 1000 aircraft.
    This is taking into account the fact that before the fig of competitors and at the same time the liner seemed to be outdated, as it were, softer.
    Now about the TU family. About the fact that the TU-204, TU-214 aircraft in FIG are not needed.
    I reveal a little secret- NEEDED !!
    That's just not a small task, if something breaks in your plane, then you will wait for the spare part for at least 1 year.
    Now think about it if you have a plane and do not fly, and you have to pay leasing payments for it. You tell me, and fig me such a plane!
    And so, for reference, Tupolev Design Bureau and all the factories at which they could collect the carcasses are part of the UAC.
    And the UAC is headed by POGHOSYAN.
    About TU-334
    TU-334 analogue SuperJet. And why some people need a competitor, of course not needed.
    And do not about the fact that SuperJet is more technological and all that.
    Guys wake up. SuperJet was designed at the prompts of Boeing, are you so naive that these guys gave something new to Russia, and you don’t need about foreign components.
    This is the country in which the greatest school of both civilian and military aircraft construction was created.
    And what do you think that it was impossible to develop new engines and all other components? if there was political will.
    and domestic components are jobs in Russia, not in Europe!
    But we did it easier, blocked TU-334, TU-214, TU-204 and also IL-96 in addition. And they invested in a supposedly modern liner!
    And this money could be invested in the purchase of airplanes, which means that the enterprises would have money in new projects, but we thought that the carcasses were eating a lot and were noisy.
    Thank God they still didn’t get to An.
    And if you are in doubt about fuel efficiency, then read what a raid was at the TU-204, which were operated in the Far East!
  • Igoranpapa
    Igoranpapa 17 November 2013 01: 12
    -3
    I’m reading here and marveling at all this nonsense with superjets. For a long time there is a fundamentally new car, even on TV they repeatedly showed that a small copy of a pot-bellied one was built and I don’t remember the small wings. So I’m what our rulers are fooling us with. If we really wanted to release something new, they would have been released a long time ago. And they, as always, shove some kind of homogenously at us, we are stupid rams for them. They put a serdyuk in a new place to raise industry for us. And you blah blah blah. Sick of God.
  • rudolff
    rudolff 17 November 2013 01: 52
    +3
    Not so much pot-bellied as wide. Are you talking about Frigate EcoJet, probably? So there is research only at the initial stage. In other words, in addition to this model for blowing in the pipe, there is actually nothing more so far.
    1. crambol
      crambol 17 November 2013 20: 25
      0
      But this is not the 334th?
  • ramsi
    ramsi 17 November 2013 09: 48
    +3
    As I read it, I am only convinced once again that the economy can (and should!) Be raped for the sake of politics. But for this the government must have "eggs"